How Sant Mat is moving from duality to oneness

It seems to me that the purpose of this is to point out that we have no free will and are nothing but puppets of “oneness”. Needless to say, this is manifestly not the case.
Look into studies in prayer and healing. There are statistically significant effects that are not due to chance or coincidence in double blinded scientific laboratory tests. This doesn’t mean that all prayer is action directed and issues from independent activators but sometimes IT DOES.
I do not believe that it is confusion between oneness and duality, it is INCLUSION. There is nothing confusing about saying that God is personal and impersonal at one and the same time. It is a large mind that can hold this truth. Small minds, well, maybe it confuses them.
And it is not at all clear what is meant by “duality” here. Duality denotes 2 things that are symmetrically opposite that exist in the same place. It could be called paradoxical but none of this is news. The very meeting or midpoint of opposites is rest or infinity enlosed and contained within itself. There is no contradiction or confusion here.
As for Sant Mat version 1 with reference to Sach Khand, this is not a known heirachy of states of consciousness according to western and other eastern spiritual practices.

Brilliant OSHO,
It is all due to Faquir Chand.
We old timers are stunned to see
this change take place in our
lifetimes.
It will take many years for the
masses at Beas to learn the new
religion. People will have to
get smarter faster.
But, it is all for the better.
I agree with Gurinder. He should
get rid of all the old Beas theology
and history books.
Beas needs a fresh start.
People are ready for it and want it.

FANTASTIC Video. Well explained. Thanks so much for posting this.

Came across this – thought it was beautiful!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x0UbAAj6jI&feature=relmfu
Marina 🙂

I like the word David uses in his post above “Inclusion”.
You cannot have oneness by rejecting part of the whole. In rejecting part of the whole – division, two, reality.
But we all do it until we don’t.
It seems that there could be a book coming out on BJ. It could be called ‘The Biography of A Spiritual Teacher & Good Business Man’. He could learn a LOT about himself!
Marina 🙂

The video is lucid and clear. Such a radical change. Gosh. Charan Singh would be spinning in his grave (if he had one. I have long left the path but at the time I found it fascinating. Just listening to version 1.0 brings back fond memories. Version 2.0 leaves me cold, I don’t think I would ever have been attracted to this sort of “new age” teaching!

Under this version (2.0), why bother to have a master lol

Very nice lesson.

I enjoyed the video – thanks to OshoRobbins for making this available.
Still, watching the videos, and reading the discussions on Santmat 1.0, 2.0, etc… I’m not so sure there’s been an upgrade.
First, we are talking about RSSB, not the many other santmat groups in existence.
But let’s assume this applies to RSSB only.
We don’t have anything down in writing from RSSB about 2.0. We have comments made by the guru. That’s fine, but one statement from a guru, heard by 2 different people, can result in 10 different religions.
We don’t have the commitment of those comments to text. The vast majority of a satsangi’s learning comes from the traditional texts, and the weekly satsangs which also (as far as I’m aware) follow the traditional teachings.
I think this exemplifies something that is true about most religions: they can be interpreted in different ways, yet each interpretation is arguably consistent with the teachings.
That’s why you get breakaway groups. If you lean towards the nondual stream of thought, that’s what will notice in the teachings.
If you lean towards the dualistic, effort-is-required stream of thought, then you notice that and emphasise that.
Just like when you buy a new car… suddenly you notice cars of your model and make everywhere.
I have come across these concepts in traditional RSSB santmat. The idea that we think we are making an effort, but ultimately we don’t. The idea that we think we are separate, but ultimately we are not. I recall (but not specifically) some of Charan’s statements in the books having this distinct flavour.
Perhaps there is more emphasis on these aspects of the teachings in Gurdiner’s satsangs (it’s hard to tell when they’re not made publicly available).
I haven’t done any statistical analysis, but I suspect those of us who agree with the 2.0 assessment have leanings towards zen and nondual thinking?

Further to my last post, I have the greatest trouble accepting that Santmat 2.0 is about not meditating.
I’d say it would be a rare satsang where the vow to meditate for 2.5 hours was not being drummed into the listeners.
I appreciate OshoRobbin’s take on this, but I feel (and it’s just a feeling) that he may be trying to slot in his preference for nondual philosophy into santmat, just as santmat sometimes strains the interpretation religious texts in trying to find in them references to ‘light’ and ‘sound’ in order to univeralise and thereby legitimise the teachings.

I’m sure this is your best post ever, though i’ve only read a few of them. But i disagree with those who say this is a new teaching. I have read and heard all this from Maharaj Charan Singh. Just go back through his writings and his tapes. I’ve come across Allan Watts (in the following videos) years ago and really liked him but realize now that I didn’t GET him like i do now. If I hadn’t become a Sant Mat meditator I would never have survived the emotional storms in my life. I don’t face things, I run. And always in the fashion of the proverbial “out of the frying pan into fire.” Sant Mat has given me an anchor until the storms came to an end.

Whether RS is ‘changing’ or not; it is important to understand the difficulty of comunicating ‘truths’ as TonyM fairly said above “one statement from a guru, heard by 2 different people, can result in 10 different religions.”
Same in all areas of life. Chinese whispers!
Here is a quote from the internet that explains it better than I can:
“To make a powerful impact on a listener, a teacher, aside from his/her personal presence or transmission abilities, has to use the imperfect logic and inadequate device of language in order to communicate anything with clout to the misinformed. In other words, he must often use the decrepit tools of logic and rhetoric, tossed into a blender made of paradox, seasoned with nuance, and served at right angles to the prevailing cultural paradigms of the listener, in order to have an impact on the student at all.
Also Paule, I too would have seen RS/SM as having been my anchor as I have said in previous posts.
I do agree however that it is important to question why we do the things we do and for what reasons. Only we (ourselves) can tell.
Marina 🙂

How much intrepretation is needed for
1. The master does not come at death.
2. The inner planes don’t exist.

What do you mean by “inner planes”?

@ OSHO ROBBINS
U BLOODY FAT JOKER SPEAKING AND PREACHING ALL LIES
ALL OF THE POINTS PRESENTED OVER HERE R EITHER BLUNT LIES OR WORDS/STATEMENT TWISTED TO SHOW SANTMAT IN WRONG LIGHT BY OSHO ROBBINS
SOME OF THE BLUNT LIES HERE ARE
1] NO MEDIATATION
2] DUALITY
3] MASTER NOT COMING AT DEATH
4] NO REGIONS EXIST

Well Evilbuster,
I think Osho’s take on RS is just pointing out what the confusion seems to be going about. I don’t take it that Osho is spreading lies and I am in RS.
There does seem to a different way the teaching is being presented. Now what that means…… I am not sure.
But whether for RS or against, I do think we are ALL entitled to our own opinion and our OWN experience.
Leaving religion or spirituality out of it, I don’t like to hear someone, anyone being personally slated for how they look. That is not the issue here.
Coming back to religion/spirituality whether RS v-1.0 or RS v-2.0, I think neither of these versions would condone putting others down in this way.
Marina 🙂

@ TARA, MARINA
Ill clarify all the points one by one which have been presented in a false manner by osho robbins
first let me tell u about osho robbins This guy wants to run his shop by targetting RS/SM bcoz this quys earns money by running a training program known as http://www.TransformationDay.com this guy is not spiritual person but a hardcore commercial consuler who charges high fees for his sessions so a guy like this speaking about rs/sm does not command respect and acceptance to wat he is preaching
Comming to points presented in the video by this “LIAR” robbins Ill clarify each point one by one
1] DUALITY TO ONENESS
WAT A BLATANT LIE SM/RS HAS ALLWAYS SPOKEN OF ONE GOD INFACT ALL THE PERFECT MASTERS CHRIST,NANAK,KABIR HAVE PREACHED THE SAME SO THE CONCEPT OF DUALITY IS MADE UP BY MR LIAR ROBBINS
2] NO ONES COMES AT DEATH
AGAIN A STATEMENT WHICH IS TWISTED BY THIS MAN ALMIGHTY BABAJI ALLWAYS SAYS IN SATSANG AND IVE HEARD IT A COUPLE OF TIMES THAT IF WE DONOT DO MEDITATION BABAJI SAYS THAT THERE IS NO GUARANTEE IF THE MASTER COMES OR NOT IT IS HIS WILL
3] NO MEDITATION
HAHAH WAT A JOK BY THIS JOKER ALMIGHTY BABAJI IN EACH AND EVERY SATSANG SAYS THAT ONLY ONE THING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT IN THIS LIFETIME THATS DHYAN OR MEDITATION
4] NO REGIONS EXIST
ROBBINS IS MAKING ME LAUGH HARDER INFACT IF ANY OF U IS INITIATED U WULD BE KNOWING WAT IM TALKING
5] GOD IS HERE
IF ANYONE OF U IS INTIATED HE WULD KNOW THE MEANING OVER HERE
6]SOULS DOES NOT GO ANYWHERE
AGAIN A BLATANT LIE BY THIS MAN IVE HEARD MANY TIMES IN SATASANG THAT IF A PERSON DOES NOT DO DHYAN HIS SOULS DOES NOT GO ANYWHERE BUT WANDER IN 84 LAKH BIRTHS
I THINK I MIGHT HAVE CLARIFIED ALL YUR DOUBTS

Right, Babaji-G, that’s got the ball rolling. Nice slot on U-Tube, you’ve gone global with the One. Now what next?
Hey, steady Grasshoppin-Seeker, there’s only so many spanners a self-respecting Guru can lob in at once. But, OK, few hints about practice might be fun. Let’s see how we might begin to realign RS practice to fit with my new philosophy of the One.
Wow, Babaji-G, what are you up to now? Surely you’re not going to tell me that along with RS philosophy/cosmology – all that stuff about inner regions, gods, radiant forms, guru appearing at death, heavens, hells, Sach Khand – being a loada (your words) ‘Rubbish’ that the practice of this Path is also a loada ‘Rubbish’?
Hoppin’, I couldn’t have said it better myself! Get this down & get it posted. Ready?
1. Anyone within the Sangat denying the roots of Surat Shabd Yoga as grounded in ancient Vedic & Upanishadic practices – of Kundalini (Shabdabraman), Mantrayana, Pranayana yoga – is talking a loada ‘Rubbish’.
Wow! You mean I should now steer well clear of satsangis, that’s gonna be most of them, who deny the relevance of such ancient yogic practices as kundalini (Shabdbrahman), mantrayana yoga. Why? Because, Hoppin’, you can bet your bottom dollar they have had zero inner experience beyond fantasising an imaginary friend!
2. Anyone within the Sangat asserting the need for a prescribed form & duration of daily meditation practice as essential to the realisation of the ONE is talking a loada … I’ve got it, Babaji-G, … ‘Rubbish’.
Wow! Thought that was set-in-stone, Babaji-G? Hoppin’ be very clear, no amount of meditation by you – doer – will get you to the One. So, 5 mins, ½ hour, 2 ½ hours, what’s it matter? And, while we’re at it, there really is no need to go fantasising imaginary friends unless, of course, you want to. In fact, that can be a very dodgy practice. So just remember, I am not coming/going/manifesting anywhere!
Right, Babaji-G. So, if that’s the case what about Bhajan? Don’t I need to squat & stick fingers in my ears? Oh grief, Grasshoppin-Seeker, now you’re just being plain daft! Shabd of what I used to call the lower regions – up to what Faqir calls Bhanwar Gupha – is located no where else but in your brain & you are as likely to hear that with eyes-wide-open as in meditation. Hearing Shabd depends on your concentration, that’s all. So, my advice? Forget about bells, conchs, thunder, whatever, because the only Shabd you will want to hear is the one that gets you outa here – through what yogis called Brahmarandhra passage & Fakir, Sat Lok – and that arises entirely spontaneously. No effort required!
OK, Babaji-G, so that leaves me with Simran/ Japa? Ah, Hoppin’ now you’re talking useful stuff. Even Ramana said as much! Mantrayama, like pranayama, very useful as an early aid to concentration. But remember, mantrayama only takes you as far as the yogis Brahmarandhra/Fakir’s BhanwarGupha. Then mantra – you’ll see – naturally falls away and, from there on in, there is No mantra, No practice, No path, No Guru, No Master. So be ready for that!
3. Anyone within the Sangat who refers to Simran of the 5 names as names of the presiding Gods of the five regions is talking … I got it, Babaji-G … ‘Rubbish’.
Good grief, Babaji-G, I thought the 5 names were sacred! Come on Hoppin’, not at all! Over the centuries there’s been a whole loada dumbing-down just for the likes of you. Our publications dept specialises in dumbing-down! So listen on. What were originally ancient matrika sounds/bija-mantras have been cobbled together & presented to the masses as names of Gods. But, just think about it. How can they be names of Gods? What Gods? In what regions? In fact, are they ‘names’ at all? Oh, Babaji-G, you’re confusing me now.
Good. That’s what I like to hear. Let’s continue. But, I’m not going to do all the work for you. You are going to have to go check this out for your self. OK.
Right, wee Seeker, it’s written in ancient Vedas & Upanishads that primary matrika sounds arise out-of bija ‘O’, signifier of the One … that’s my ‘new’ ONE! These primary sounds, bound to nada bindu, form bija mantras, what I’ll call matrika units. Each of these, guess, has a specific power in a specific sound form. Got it? So, what you’re saying Babaji-G, is that it’s the matrika unit which is significant? Correct. And examples of these? Na, ka, ra, ong, j/yang, rang, ang, hang etc. And, what do you know, matrika sound/letter – ka – is singularly identified with kundali aka shabdabrahman. And, guess, matrika unit – hang – signifies fully aroused Ka in Ajna centre … where us RS-ers taught to focus. You keeping up with me?
Wow, this is all news to me, Babaji-G! But what has it got to do with our Simran of the 5 names?
Ah, listen on seeker, you’ve a way to go! Essentially, since mantra is experienced as falling-away (it gets left behind) at Brahmarandhra / BhanwarG of the Fakir, we can forget the fifth name in this context. OK. So-called True Shabd/Nam refers solely to that spontaneous end-sound witnessed by the One – my ‘new’ One – Self , Ramana’s I-Am – experienced directly prior to liberation; to Ramana’s I-I. OK. You keeping up? So, that leaves us with just the first 4 names of Simran?
And these, Babaji-G, relate to whatever goes on before mantra falls-away, is that so? Correct. They relate to whatever goes on still well within the orbit of mind. That is well within this context of duality.
So, Babaji-G, if mantra relates to whatever goes on within the orbit of mind, then what relevance have the 4 names? As ‘names’? Absolutely no relevance at all. They are meaningless. However, I’ll give you a clue. Just take a look at this. Do you see how your simran/japa of the 4 names is simply a ‘garland’ of matrika units where Jot is a common reference/title accorded to the inner flame, say no more, we all know what that signifies!
Jot! Na-ran(g)-j/yan(g)-on(g)-ka(r)-ra(h)-an(g)-ka(r)-so-hang.
Wow, Babaji-G, my Sanskrit is raw, but this looks just like an invocation to Kundali aka Shabdabrahman aka Ka.
Halleluja! Now we’re cooking on gas! You see it’s encrypted into your ‘garland’ of matrika units, it’s the key to your inner purification – bhuttashruddi – and it’s a totally natural cleansing … what Swami Ji, Fakir describe as bathing in Mansarovar … which must take place prior to your effortless Self Realisation. And, Grasshoppin-seeker, do you not think that your wee mantra is telling you precisely what that involves!
Oh, Babaji-G, you’re having me on. All this is just another of your big jokes, isn’t it?
May be, Grasshoppin-Seeker. But that’s for me to know & you to find out. Now I’m off. Another day, another dollar. Radha Soami!

TonyM: you wrote
We don’t have anything written down from RSSB about 2.0
If you lean towards the dualistic, effort-is-required stream of thought, then you notice that and emphasise that.
My response:
You are absolutely correct. We interpret in our own way and we focus on what we choose to focus on – hence we have our own versions of what is said.
Having said that – it is clear that there is a DISTINCT and CLEAR shift in the teachings – that simply cannot be denied.
Charan Singh and previous RSSB masters have never made such radical statements as the current master.
Charan Singh did make it 100% clear that he had no spiritual progress and just to leave no doubt – printed the original handwritten notes from his personal diary to make it clear that he did not know what to do when given the successorship.
How satsangis deal with this I have no idea. The ones I have spoken to simply go into denial and say it was just his humility. Which of course is nonsense – because this was his private diary entry – showing his thought process.
Regarding the point of meditation – sant mat 2.0 or 3.0 makes it clear that meditation is simply to tire the mind – and that you cannot arrive at the destination through effort. In fact effort is the barrier.
I am not saying that RSSB tells you NOT to meditate – they clearly tell you to meditate – but the meaning has changed. It is no longer about leaving the body and getting to Sach Khand.

Dearest EVIL BUSTER
I suggest you WAKE UP PAL and smell the coffee.
You have obviously not listened to any of your master’s satsangs recently.
If all you have listened to is satsangs from his ‘preachers’ then I agree my statements will appear to be lies – because most of the speakers have no idea what is going on themselves – it’s the blind leading the blind.
I have no vested interest is showing sant mat in the ‘wrong light’ or in any light for that matter. I am simply making an observation from what I have heard personally.
By the way I am initiated into RSSB and I even used to be a speaker for RSSB. My father was one of the EARLIEST RSSB followers in the UK – initiated back in 1962 – when there were not even live satsangs – just tapes of Charan Singh.
Gurinder has made it 100% clear on MANY occasions that no master is going to come at death – because there is only ONE.
You need to pay more attention to what your master says.
He has also made is 100% clear that there are NO REGIONS. This was on the public mike in response to ME PERSONALLY – so obviously it’s not hearsay. He said that the regions are just ‘a way of explaining and not to be taken literally – they are just levels of consciousness’
Evil Buster:
Do you REALLY think that SACH KHAND is a PLACE? I mean EXISTING within TIME and SPACE?
A place where a BEING known as SAT PURUSH resides and welcomes the souls who have done their meditation and obeyed the guru.
Obviously I won’t qualify to be let in – probably one of BabaJi’s sevadars will be on duty just outside the gates to stop me specifically –especially as they all know what I look like now and also being a FAT JOKER probably doesn’t help either. But – Oh well – you can’t win em all.
However, why have you jeopardized your own chances by slandering me? Don’t you know that in sant mat – it is a sin? You have to take on my karmas now – and they’re REALLY HEAVY man – because – well I’m a fat joker remember.
According to sant mat – if you criticize someone – you take on their karmas. Hey – you know what – I feel so LIGHT already.
Maybe I’ll make another video – and you can call me more names – this is FUN!

Charan wrote he had not progressed any ? In a diary? I’ve never heard this once.Is this something privy to Indian Satsangi’s and us western blokesare left out in the cold ?

To OSHO,
We have two Rajinder moles on the club
right now. Just ignore them.
Your video was great OSHO.
To Dogribb, The quotes you are looking
for are in my book, but I don’t have time
to dig them out for you. Beas actually published Charan saying he wasn’t what the sangat thought he was and his distress
at being the new master. In my book, I
also quote Sawan telling Chachaji, Swami Ji’s brother, he was powerless and inept.
http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html
To seeker 2011, nice post.

@ osho robbins
can u clarify thes statement and can u give me some proof as to where u heard these points:
1]Gurinder has made it 100% clear on MANY occasions that no master is going to come at death – because there is only ONE.
2]He has also made is 100% clear that there are NO REGIONS
3]He said that the regions are just ‘a way of explaining and not to be taken literally – they are just levels of consciousness’

@ OSHO ROBBINS
I CAN TELL EVERYBODY IN THIS FORUM WITH 101% CONVICTION THAT OSHO ROBBINS IS INSPIRED BY FAQIR CHAND AND ALL OF THE CLAIMS MADE BY THIS NOT SO INNOCENT PERSON HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM FAKIR CHAND SECRET HISTORY OF RSSB WHICH ITSELF IS JOKE AND A BLUNT LIE
ALL THE POINTS IN FC SECRET HISTORY OF BEAS ARE WRONG AND HAVE NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE AND FC WROTE THIS BLOG TO INCREASE HIS FOLLOWERS
WHIC DID NOT HAPPEN
SO ROBBINS I THINK U SHULD DO A PHD IN FAKIR CHAND PHILOSOPHY AND ALSO BCOME HIS SUCCESOR

evilbuster wrote:
first of all – can you explain what you mean by the phrase ‘not so innocent’? The implication is that I am guilty of something.
We are simply exchanging ideas and opinions here.There is no question of innocence or guilt about anything. I am not on trial here.
I am not even writing anything against RSSB – I am simply making an observation about the teachings. The whole notion
of ‘not so innocent’ is all created in your head. Nothing I have written or stated in the videos is even a threat to RSSB or anyone else. You appear to be adding lots of your own ‘values’ to my statements.
It starts with your name. EVIL BUSTER. There is no EVIL to bust. You are assuming the evil. Just because you have not listened closely to your master – you are shocked when I make certain statements. What will happen when you hear your own guru making these statements? Will you
call him evil too?
The videos I uploaded were not based on Faqir Chand – but on actual and personal first hand statements made by the current
RSSB master.
I will tell you exactly where I heard those statements
(1) In the UK – someone (I know the person – but there is no need to names any names here as it does not make any difference
to the validility of the statement) asked BabaJi this question in punjabi:
Please don’t break our hearts by saying that you are not coming at the time of death.
BabaJi: Try to understand what I am saying. There is only ONE, so who can come at death and who will he come to take? Once we reach
that level of consciousness – there is no question of anyone coming to get us to take us anywhere. This question of the master coming at the time of death only arises while we are in duality.
Now it’s time to THINK. If the teachings are that the master DOES come at the time of death – all Baba had to say was – “You are mistaken – I will come at death and save you – so relax – I always save my initiates – we have a verbal contract”. Now WHY didn’t he say that? because it is not what he is teaching.
(2) and (3) – these answers I have heard MANY TIMES. I personally asked BabaJi this question – as stated in the videos I have uploaded.
I said to him “My God is here” and he replied that “my God is also here” I explained that sant mat books state that Sat Purush resides in Sach Khand.
His response to this was “burn the books.” He then said that the regions are just a way of explaining and not to be taken literally. He said they are levels of consciousness. He then agreed that God is indeed HERE – and that you have to REALIZE him.
regarding your earlier comments:
you wrote:
“This guy wants to run his shop by targetting RS/SM bcoz this quys earns money by running a training program known as http://www.TransformationDay.com this guy is not spiritual person but a hardcore commercial consuler who charges high fees for his sessions so a guy like this speaking about rs/sm does not command respect and acceptance to wat he is preaching”
my response:
yes – I am launching a programme called Transformation Day – but why and how is that a problem for you? How does that make me a ‘non-spiritual’ person (whatever that means). And I am not targetting RSSB or sant mat followers.
So a hardcore commercial consuler (what is that?) who charges high fees for his sessions commands no respect?
Hmm… interesting
What are these high fees I charge? 150 USD for a full day of 16 hours? hardly what you would call extortionate high fees.
well lets examine the facts here. Gurinder is about as hardcore commercial business person as you can get. In february 2010 his
sons were instantly worth around $55 million each because of his own interests in Religare. He himself made $587,000.
Now that is what you might just call high fees.
Shares were just given (allocated) to his sons at 23c each. They became worth $395 each as soon as the company was taken public. so, $34000 became $55 million.
Do you have a problem with your guru making this kind on money?
If not – then why do you have a problem with me running a seminar about transformation?
You need to apply your judgmental viewpoint to your own guru if you have any credibility.
And your guru is meant to be ‘spiritual’ and not interested in material wealth. Remember the story they quote about Mirabai giving her guru Ravidas a diamond and he just leaves it where she put it?
I guess times have changed.

Buster,
I think you are confused, and also, you are incorrect (wrong) about a number of things. You have made incorrect assumptions, statements and judgements about myself and other commenters. It makes you look rather foolish.
So, for your information…
(a) Fakir Chand did NOT write Radhasoami Beas Secret History.
(b) Fakir Chand did NOT write this or any blog.
(c) I am an initiate. In fact, I was initiated by Charan Singh more than 30 years ago. I met with Charan Singh personally on several occasions, and I spent considerable time at the Dera, and I am boith knowledgeable and experienced and very well acquainted with Sant Mat as well as the Radha Soami Satsang Beas and its past masters.

@ OSHO ROBBINS
I CAN ASSURE U THAT SITTING IN INDIA I HAVE HEARD MORE SATSANGS THAN COMBINED STRENGHT OF ALL PEOPLE PRESENT IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING U
I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT ITS YOUR MIND AND JUDEGEMENT WHICH WANTS U TO QUESTION THE TEACHINGS OF THE MASTER AND CRITICISE THE MASTER THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE TEACHING AND THEY R ABSOULUTELY IN LINE ITS YOUR MIND WHICH IS CORRUPT
ITS A ENGLISH PROVERB IM SURE U R AWARE OF IT ” EMPTY VESSELS MAKE THE MOST NOISE”
U DONT WANT TO FOLLOW THE PATH WHICH IS STRICT AND DOES NOT ALLOW INDULGENCE U WANT TO FOLLOW OSHO WHO I KNOW WAS ONE THE MOST CONTERVESIAL GUY OF HIS TIME
THEREFORE U R NOT IN A POSITION TO POINT FINGER AT SM/RSSB
IM NOT AGAINST OSHO BUT I TREAT HIM AS A ORDINARY GENTLEMAN
ASFAR AS ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS CONCERNED IM A DIRTY MORTAL IS NOT EVEN THE DUST OF HIS FEET BUT AS U WERE SAYING THAT HIS SONS MADE
$55 million I WOULD SAY WAT IS WRONG IN THAT ITS THEIR FAMILY BUISNESS AND THEY ARE EARNING THERE OWN BREAD AND BUTTER AND ASKING ANYTHING FROM ANYBODY
PEOPLE CAN U CAN ONLY CRITICISE THIS ONLY SHOWS YOUR SPIRTUAL ELIVATION WHICH IS ZERO

Hi Osho dear Sir. I liked your videos cause i don’t attend any local so called satsangs. I developed this kind of philosophy with meditation and like the new direct way.
And EVIL BUSTER and the likes!!! Baba Ji or any other master does not need your defending. You are only defending your shaken faith. What is wrong with you people do you really think that Master would go on Brian, Osho, Tao, Tara and great Mike Williams like you go??! I was told from books and Masters and meditation directly that Sant Mat is liberation not a religion and sectism and the minute someone gets a glimps of liberation you go nuts and force on them. Show your love and positive will and the black force in you will have no place to stay. And yes BIG HAIL to Tara, Brian, Tao, Mike Williams and also to Baba Ji. Peace

I for one (see what I did there)?….. need to know what the 5 levels of consciousness are…I haven’t got the patch for 3.0 yeti yeti

To EVIL BUSTER
Is Osho your deciple, are Brian and others your deciples. You are taking Baba Jis job now man.You are preaching of pointing finger and than you immediately judge by telling of zero spirituality. Take your time and re read your messages analise your self cause you are full of anger and judgement. Come on man stop beating your self you are bleeding be happy man if you love your Master so much than show to him that you can be polite happy and non judgemental, come on try.

@ TAO
I AM NOT ASKING FOR YOUR OPINION SO DONT POINT FINGERS AT ME
SECONDLY OK SECRET HISTORY WAS WRITTEN BY MIKE WILLIAMS AND NOT FAKIR CHAND BUT HOW DOES IT MAKE A DIFFRENCE
THIRDLY U SAID UR KNOWLEGABLE AND EXPREINCED WAT A JOKE OF THIS CENTURY YOUR LANGUAGE AND WORDS SEEM TO BE OF A INEXPRECIENCED AND ILLITRATE BAFOON
IF U HAD EVEN LITTLE KNOWLEGE ABOUT SM/RSSB U WULD HAVE KEPT YOUR TRAP SHUT AND NOT WASTED TIME CRITICISING RSSB
THIS OSHO ROBBINS AND ALL THE CRITICAL PUBLIC IN THIS FORUM WANTS TO ENJOY LIFE,DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO AND THEY HATE RSSB BCOZ IT IS STRICT AND PREVENTS U FROM INDULGENCE AND THIS HAS MADE U PEOPLE HATE RSSB
U HATE IT ,CRITICISE IT FIND FAULTS OR DEFEND YUR FAILED POINT TRUTH WILL BE TRUTH AND THAT CANNOT BE CHANGED
ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS THE CREATOR AND GOD AND WE DIRTY MORTALS CAN ONLY FIND FAULTS IN GOD BCOZ WE R DIRTY AND HE IS PURE

Dearest EVIL BUSTER,
you need to change your name to EVIL PROPOGATOR. Why? Because you are definately not following the teachings of your own master. He doesn’t teach you to call people names – especially as you have no idea what you are talking about.
You seem bitter that a person can enjoy their life. Your own master is enjoying his life and he tells people to lighten up. I have personally seen him come into a hall full of sevadars and say “why all the long faces?”
So enjoying your life is not against any of your masters teachings.
By the way – I have simply explained in the videos how I see that the teachings are no longer the same as the RSSB teachings from the eighties and earlier. I have not condemned them. In fact I think they’re moving into a much more relaxed direction. I think it’s cool and I am enjoying the show.
You on the other hand seem to be bitter and upset.
You wrote:
I CAN ASSURE U THAT SITTING IN INDIA I HAVE HEARD MORE SATSANGS THAN COMBINED STRENGHT OF ALL PEOPLE PRESENT IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING U
Well well well. What do you want? a medal? You may have heard them – but have you really LISTENED?
And you seem mighty PROUD of your accomplishment. And I thought sant mat was about eliminating the EGO. SO whatever you’re doing it’s not working.
You say empty vessels make a lot of noise. Well I am quite happy to be called an empty vessel – in fact I can take it as a compliment.
But your own guru makes a lot of noise too, right? So would you call him an empty vessel too?
For your information OSHO only claimed to be an ordinary person. He claimed no POWERS or ALL-KNOWINGNESS like sant mat teaches.
Enlightenment (whatever that is) is an ordinary state. It is seeking to be extraordinary that keeps you trapped in seeking.
WHO exactly told you that you are a dirty mortal? Certainly your own guru doesn’t teach that – he tells people not to put themselves down. You are YOU – just as you are. Neither good nor bad.
It is YOU who brought up the topic of money – because you said that I was running a seminar called Transformation Day and making lots of money. You said it made me unspiritual.
I am just saying – apply the same criteria to your own guru – or don’t make such silly statements.
What makes you think I have any ‘spiritual elevation’? I have never claimed any. I am happy to be just me – just as I am. I don’t even know what the heck this ‘spiritual elevation’ is!

the videos are clear, but all i see is some chap saying what his interpretation of v1 and v2 says. where is the actual proof or source(s) that state this is actually what v1 or v2 say?
As in all of these religions and traditions, it comes down to interpretation, and all that we can tell from these videos is one persons interpretation of what v1 and v2 are respectively saying.
as for the poster who is lower than dust and all that, you sound like a sincere individual but my goodness why would anyone write themselves off like that?
this is for me the most worrying thing about cults.

The “BUSTER” who claims to be “EVIL” says:
“@ TAO I AM NOT ASKING FOR YOUR OPINION SO DONT POINT FINGERS AT ME”
— unfortunately Buster, you pointed your “evil” finger at me first… when you mentioned my name and you insulted me and made incorrect assertions and judgements about me. if you come to a blog and start attacking me and other people (as you have done), then people may likely respond by posting their opinions about you and pointing out your mistakes. if you start attacking other people here by name (as you have done), then its entirely your own fault. so don’t be surprised if other people form negative opinions about you. i kind of have to wonder why Brian would even tolerate an angry hypocritical troll like you, who post shouting comments (using all caps)… except for the fact that crazed and disturbed cult fanatics like you, do a much better job of making the RSSB cult look bad, than any critics ever could. *grin*
“SECONDLY OK SECRET HISTORY WAS WRITTEN BY MIKE WILLIAMS AND NOT FAKIR CHAND BUT HOW DOES IT MAKE A DIFFRENCE”
— it makes a difference simply because your assertion was wrong. and that shows that you are confused and that your statements about others are inaccurate.
“THIRDLY U SAID UR KNOWLEGABLE AND EXPREINCED WAT A JOKE OF THIS CENTURY YOUR LANGUAGE AND WORDS SEEM TO BE OF A INEXPRECIENCED AND ILLITRATE BAFOON”
— well, coming from a hypocritical fanatic like you, someone who can neither spell correctly nor write proper english, it seems that you are the one who is the “JOKE” and the “ILLITERATE BAFOON”.
“IF U HAD EVEN LITTLE KNOWLEGE ABOUT SM/RSSB U WULD HAVE KEPT YOUR TRAP SHUT AND NOT WASTED TIME CRITICISING RSSB”
— on the contrary, my knowledge and experience is exactly why i have the right and the priviledge of criticising.
“THIS OSHO ROBBINS AND ALL THE CRITICAL PUBLIC IN THIS FORUM WANTS TO ENJOY LIFE,DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO AND THEY HATE RSSB BCOZ IT IS STRICT AND PREVENTS U FROM INDULGENCE AND THIS HAS MADE U PEOPLE HATE RSSB’
— I can’t really speak for others, but I don’t “HATE RSSB” at all… and I don’t think anyone else at this blog hates RSSB either. myself, I have no reason to hate. at this point, I couldn’t care less about the RS cult. it is not important to me. however, that doesn’t mean that I don’t have opinions about RS, and that I don’t have the right to express my opinions, regardless of the fact that you tell people here to shut up. and it seems that you are the one who hates anyone who has a critical opinion about the RSSB cult and its bogus guru.
“ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS THE CREATOR AND GOD AND WE DIRTY MORTALS CAN ONLY FIND FAULTS IN GOD BCOZ WE R DIRTY AND HE IS PURE”
— all you are really saying here, is that you are “DIRTY”, that you have a “DIRTY” mind. you don’t speak for other people. and you “BABAJI” is no “CREATOR” or “GOD” of anything. he is merely an ordinary and imperfect (and corrupt) human being. it is sad that people like you have so little self-esteem and self-worth, that you will grovel and worship at the feet of elitist cult guru frauds like the ridiculous character that you worship. its really rather pathetic. i have to feel sorry for people like you Buster.

Georgie Peorgie,
you are correct – this is my interpretation of the RSSB upgraded teachings.
Different people may interpret the changes in a different way. What is clear however is that there are differences emerging and the traditional teachings are being replaced.
Many people may be slow in accepting the changes because it is easier to go into denial.
The question is WHY are the teachings changing?
Did Sat Purush have a meeting with the lords of the lower regions and was he out-voted?
No – the reason they are changing is because a person known as Gurinder became the new guru.
And just like me or anyone else – HE ALSO has HIS own interpretation of what Sant mat is really about.
He decided after observation (and I would agree with this) that the teachings as given up until now just keep the disciples stuck in duality.
Why? because they seek experiences. And because they seek – they find. So now they have hope because they had a glimpse of light or the radiant form. They noe believe they are on the right path – and continue all their life.
They do not realize that they are creating their own experiences.
No phenomena is ever REAL because it is all part of TIME AND SPACE which is MAYA or ILLUSION.
Only that is REAL which is beyond time and space. In sant mat – that is called SHABD or NAAM.
However – seeking to experience it – is not IT. The real meaning of SHABD or NAAM is to REALIZE the state of NON-PHENOMENA and to recognize it as the ONLY REALITY. This is called ENLIGHTENMENT.
Gurinder has an understanding of this – so he has incorporated this into the old duality teachings – without coming clean and stating the truth.
What truth? The truth which is hard for everone to admit – and which even his closest followers will have trouble in accepting. Namely that all the previous masters were giving out duality teachings. Hence none of them were enlightened.
Now this is going to sound very egotistical if he states his truth. So he has found a halfway house.
He has incorporated the new into the old – and confused the f**k out of everyone. When they are confused – he states that this is precisely his purpose.
Why because only when you are confused are you able to let go of your conviction in the old teachings.
Then at some point he can officially release the new upgraded software and he will be accepted because the sangat will be ready to accept anything.
So right now the software upgrade is in the process of being uploaded – hence the confusion.
Well – that’s my version of the story – and I’m sticking to it.

Hi Georgie,
There have been many people here
confirming what OSHO and Brian have said.
You missed the posts.
Both OSHO and Brian nailed it. Its been coming out for several years. This isn’t
a recent development.

evil buster,
I agree with TAO – if you are on here – posting YOUR opinions – then others are going to post THEIRS. If you can’t take the heat – then don’t dish it out.
You point fingers at others and they will point fingers back. Now you make commandments (like DON’T POINT FINGERS AT ME!). Are you nuts? Of course others will point fingers at you – you asked for it.
By the way – so did I. By posting those videos I am putting myself in the firing line. People like EVIL BUSTER always come forward and criticise. I invited you by posting the video. I have never asked you to stop calling me names.
I mean your first greeting to me was this:
U BLOODY FAT JOKER SPEAKING AND PREACHING ALL LIES
Hardly the way your master teaches you to greet people. I mean a simple “Radha Soami Osho Robbins – I disagree with your ideas” would have sufficed.
Not that I mind. I actually enjoy your comments – they make life interesting. FAT – well yes I may be a little on the fat side – which is cool because I choose that. JOKER – well that’s a nice compliment – thank you – and I will try to be more light hearted and joke some more.
As for LIES – well that is certain to be the case because my truth WILL ALWAYS appear to be lies to SOMEONE. Everyone will interpret in their own ways.
For example there is nothing threatening in the three videos I uploaded. I did not CONDEMN anyone – or COMPLAIN. Or call anyone BAD (or even GOOD for that matter). I merely pointed out MY OBSERVATIONS.
Which as a human being I am perfectly entitled to do. And you are perfectly entitled to AGREE or DISAGREE.
If you want to get UPSET or ANGRY that is also your perogative.
And if you are wise – you will be open to the possibility that maybe – just MAYBE – you might not be RIGHT in your interpretations.
Then there is no reason to be angry – you will let everyone have their opinions – and you will ENJOY THE SHOW.
And you will realize that you are not an EVIL BUSTER because there is no evil to bust. The EVIL is also your interpretation. It is your own creation.
We are all simply playing with ideas here – Brian has simply created a place for people to discuss their opinions and have an open discussion without anyone having ultimate authority.
You are used to the idea that your BABAJI is the ultimate authority and anyone who questions him is EVIL.
Let me tell you of an ACTUAL incident. I was speaking with gurinder on the mic – and it got into a discussion (as I call it). However others might call it an ARGUMENT. It is all INTERPRETATION.
Anyway – someone from the audience shouted out “switch off his mic”. Gurinder responded by saying “If you want to switch off his mic – then switch off mine too”
“we are having a discussion – and you might learn something from it. If I want him to sit down – I can do this myself” he added.
Which I think was pretty cool.

Below old quote from Brian I like. —–
Krishnamurti pointed people in a Zen way towards living a life of freedom, free from the mental conditioning continually imposed on us by Societal leaders. The Institutional Spiritual Leaders are to be specially guarded against because we are conditioned to become trusting of them.
His message was: See and understand everything by yourself. Do not succumb to external pressures and enticements. Be Free.
He really taught nothing. Simply said, Live your own life sensitive of everything around you. Our mental freedom does not come from books or talks or other people, it comes when we connect with the core of our own Self.
To allow that inner connection so we can truly be ourselves in our ordinary life is for me the greatest practice.
A Spiritual Institution, which claims to guide its followers toward the Ultimate Truth, surely must show itself as honest and truthful and having the highest standards of ethics and morality.

I CAN ASSURE U THAT SITTING IN INDIA I HAVE HEARD MORE SATSANGS THAN COMBINED STRENGHT OF ALL PEOPLE PRESENT IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING U
How unfortunate….get a hobby,go for a walk or do the dishes….kidding…lol

@ OSHO ROBBINS
IF SOME OF MY WORDS OR LANGUAGE HAS HURTED U SO
I WOULD LIKE TO APPOLIGISE TO U WITH FOLDED HANDS _/\_
SECONDLY I WANT TO SAY THAT ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS MY FATHER AND IF SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING BAD FOR MY FATHER I GET BLOODBOILING ANGRY
THIRDLY I HAVE SEVERAL POINTS WHICH R REAL TO POINT FINGER AT OSHO YOUR GURU BUT MY GURU HAS TAUGHT ME NOT CRITICISE ANYONE SO ILL NOT DO THAT
LASTLY IT IS YOUR MISFORTUNE THAT U TRIED TO BE CLEVER AND HAD AN ARGUMENT WITH THE ALMIGHTY TRY DOING THE SAME WITH ANY MORTAL ON THE STREET HE WILL BASH THE DAYLITE OUT OF U

@ MIKE WILLIAM
U R THE ANOTHER ROTTEN EGG OF THIS FORUM I KNOW U HAVE WRITTEN THE DUD SECRET HISTORY OF RSSB WHICH IS CONSIDERED A PEICE OF COMIC HERE IN INDIA
I THINK MUST BE A JOKER TO WRITE COMICS

actually evilbuster sounds more evil than anyone else.
you ppl are actually stuffed in the head. you preach love and you full of hate and retribution. and the irony is that the irony is completely lost on you.
let us for argument sake accept that baby ji is indeed the lord god almighty hisself(that every other religion is wrong and that RS happens to be the only true path) and that baba ji is the true lord; any teaching that proclaims love to be its central tenent and yet whose disciples appear to be full of vengefullness and intolerance – is precisely the opposite – and in fact it says more about that teaching that anyone else possibly could.
Bottomline, just because you believe someone is god almightly does mean that said person is god almighty, and more importantly, other certainly do not need to be forced or cajoled into accepting your own personal belief.
It is this sort of closed-minded religious intolerance, which has led to virtually all the wars and conflicts since the beginning of time, and invariably its adherents are all fighting over their particular version of the truth.

Dear evil buster,
I am going to respond to each comment:
IF SOME OF MY WORDS OR LANGUAGE HAS HURTED U SO
I WOULD LIKE TO APPOLIGISE TO U WITH FOLDED HANDS _/\_
OK – first of all – I have made it as clear as I can that I am NOT offended or hurt by anything you have said. Hence no apology is due. Besides I really don’t know what to do with apologies. They can’t be eaten, or even sold on ebay.
Second thing is this. You are not apologising. A real apology is not words – it is something that comes from your heart and it brings tears to your eyes. It touches both apologizer and apologizee. It is a rare occurence. It comes from real remorse. And it changes you at the core – because it comes from a transfromation of your being.
Surface apologies are simply lies – a social etiquette – like when you tell a child to behave – it’s not real.
You are only apologizing because it is the custom in RSSB to not use harse words. However, after apologizing to me – you then call Mike WIlliams a Joker and a rotten egg – in your very next posting.
SECONDLY I WANT TO SAY THAT ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS MY FATHER AND IF SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING BAD FOR MY FATHER I GET BLOODBOILING ANGRY
Thank you for your honesty. However, can you see it’s not a very powerful way to live your life? If you let other people have that much power over you – you are not going to be very happy. I suggest you attend my intense training Transformation Day – only $150 and a bargain. No seva to perform. No satsangs to attend. In a single day I will re-wire your brain.
THIRDLY I HAVE SEVERAL POINTS WHICH R REAL TO POINT FINGER AT OSHO YOUR GURU BUT MY GURU HAS TAUGHT ME NOT CRITICISE ANYONE SO ILL NOT DO THAT
You are most welcome to point the finger at OSHO. By the way – he’s not my guru – as I don’t have one. I have had many gurus in the past – I started collected them at age 18 when I went to university.
Please feel free to state your points about OSHO. I would be most interested – but remember I am not here to defend anyone – and includes OSHO and even myself. Playfully you may make comments and playfully I will answer.
If you guru has taught you not to criticise anyone – then why are you doing it? Personally in my philosophy it’s perfectly okay to criticise anyone. How else can you examine and discuss issues?
Nothing gets resolved if you don’t voice your opinions. And you have to get beyond this idea that YOU ARE RIGHT! Because all that we all do is see the world through our own filters and then we think we are dealing with the real world. We are not – we are dealiong with our own filters – which are BELIEFS – and they are not even true!
LASTLY IT IS YOUR MISFORTUNE THAT U TRIED TO BE CLEVER AND HAD AN ARGUMENT WITH THE ALMIGHTY TRY DOING THE SAME WITH ANY MORTAL ON THE STREET HE WILL BASH THE DAYLITE OUT OF U
No – you mis-understand me. I did not TRY to be anything. I was simply discussing a point and BABAJI and I were both having a pretty good time. Well at least I was – and it seemed to me like he was.
It only looked like a argument to those who have a BELIEF that it is WRONG to have a discussion with Babaji. It appears to them that I am questioning his AUTHORITY and am not respecting him.
However – you have to realize that Babji himself likes and enjoys the process of discussion. For example he has said to me many times “Reason with me” meaning that he is asking me to respond to his reply.
RSSB always make these announcements before question sessions. (1) Only ask one question. (2) make it short (3) do not get into a dialogue (4) only ask about spiritual issues.
This is all nonsense. Why because they are saying NO REAL QUESTIONS. Any real question HAS TO end up in a dialogue. The GITA is a great dialogue between Krishna and Arjuna.
The Ashtavakra Smita is a great dialogue between Ashtavakra and Janak.
Dialogue is necessary.
I don’t know which world you live in – but in any civilised society – it is not usually the custom to have a physical fight with anyone who disagrees with you.
We disagree all the time on this forum. I don’t see anyone tryng to bash the daylights out of anyone. And it’s usually only those who are totally brainwashed into RSSB who get offended and make offensive remarks.

Hi Osho,
I think you are really sexy

Dear Osho Robbins,
I know for a fact that you are a fat bastard but ill tell you what, you are the most fucking amazing fat bastard that I and Gazzi singh rularde have ever met.
The proof of your shear amazingness is in the tasting and experiencing of your pudding. You can listen to you all day long babbling like a brook – you aint going to get fucking nowhere, I know because I have done both!
You are gods gift, and I take great joy in watching the unworthy miss your greatness.
You are fucking amazing.
Prem slagar

[Note from Blogger Brian: ordinarily I wouldn’t publish an ALL CAPS comment that is filled with insulting meaningless crap. But as another commenter observed recently, sometimes it’s good to show what religion does to people — how they become hateful rather than loving, critical rather than compassionate. So I’ve been making some exceptions with EVILBUSTER. Read on…]
@ TARA
U DUMB WOMAN FYI KAREENA KAPOOR HAS BEEN VOTED THE SEXIEST VEGITARAIN FOR THE YEAR 2010 BY PETA SO GET YUR FACTS RIGHT AND IM SURE PANKAJ KAPOOR WILL NOT ENTERTAIN A WOMAN LIKE U IF HE HEARS U SPEAKING TRASH
SECONDLY IM A JAT AND IF U R AN INDIAN U KNOW WHO WE R AND WAT WE CAN DO
THIRDLY U R A GOOD FOR NOTHING IF U WANT TO CURSE SOMEONE BE IT YUR PARENTS FOR PRODUCING A RETARD
I THINK U LIKE CHICKEN AND U HAVE IT THATS Y YUR MIND IS CORRUPTED AND UR IMPURE AND I DONT SPEAK TO IMPURE MORTALS U DESERVE THIS FILTH OF THIS WORLD

@ ALL THE CRITICS
THIS IS MY LAST COMMENT ON THIS BLOG BEFORE DEPARTING I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THE FOLLOWING POINTS:
1] I AM NOT A FANATIC AND I AM JUST TELLING WATS THE TRUTH ITS YOUR WISH TO MAKE ANY CONCLUSIONS OUT OF IT
2] IT IS THE MORTALS LIKE U WHO R CRITISCING AND I AM JUST TELLING U THE TRUTH HUZUR MAHARAJI USED TO SAY KI SATSANG WOH NAHI HAI KI JAH PE DOOSRO KI NEENDA CHUGLI HO SATSANG WO HAI JAHA US NAM KI BADAI HOTI HAI
U PEOPLE HAVE CERTIFIED THAT THIS PLACE BELONGS TO THE ORDINARY MORTALS WHO TALK DIRTY,CRITCISE,SPEAK BAD WORDS,ABUSE ETC AND WHERE THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THE LORD HERETHEREFORE I DONT WANT TO STAY INA NEGATIVE PLACE LIKE THIS AND SPOIL MY KARMA
AT LAST I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT IF U HAD SOME SPRITUAL ELIVATION OR EVEN ORDINARY GOOD HUMAN QUALITIES U WOULD NOT HAVE WASTED YOUR PRECIOUS TIME OVER HERE
NOTHING MORE TO SAY TO SUCH HARD HEARTED AND EVIL PEOPLE

Ah Evilbuster, I’m gonna miss you :)))
you have really shown me how I need to look at my beliefs and not hold them too tightly….ouch ouch ouch
Marina 😉

what i cant understand about you ppl tho is what is so bad about being critical, of questioning?
I cant understand these folk who go absolutely apeshit just because someone happens to disagree. Thats all, a difference in perspective, what difference does it make to you if someone disagrees with you, even if you will never change your mind, why can they not express theirs?
well and truly beyond me.

Buster says:
“I AM NOT A FANATIC”
— well then, why do you talk (write) and act like one?
“IT IS THE MORTALS LIKE U”
— try stepping in front of a fast moving bus, and then you will realize just how mortal you are (or were). [caution: better not to try this] you get the idea.
“U PEOPLE […] WHO TALK DIRTY,CRITCISE,SPEAK BAD WORDS,ABUSE ETC”
— well then, you had better go back and re-read your own abuse and dirty bad words. besides, you are the one who claims to be evil.
“AND WHERE THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THE LORD HERETHEREFORE I DONT WANT TO STAY INA NEGATIVE PLACE LIKE THIS AND SPOIL MY KARMA
— lol! your karma is already spoiled.
“IF U HAD SOME SPRITUAL ELIVATION OR EVEN ORDINARY GOOD HUMAN QUALITIES U WOULD NOT HAVE WASTED YOUR PRECIOUS TIME OVER HERE”
— well thanks for dropping by and letting us know what wonderful person you’ve become since coming under the RS/GS cult influence.
“NOTHING MORE TO SAY TO SUCH HARD HEARTED AND EVIL PEOPLE”
— I’m sorry that you are so miserable. perhaps this little music video will improve your crappy outlook:
Give Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpVUih5nY9g

To EvilBuster
You say: “ALMIGHTY BABAJI IS THE CREATOR AND GOD AND WE DIRTY MORTALS CAN ONLY FIND FAULTS IN GOD BCOZ WE R DIRTY AND HE IS PURE”
Babaji is the Creator? And God? Babaji is just a mortal man. He is not the Creator nor God. Your religious fanaticism is as clear as your all caps are obnoxious.
You say: “I CAN ASSURE U THAT SITTING IN INDIA I HAVE HEARD MORE SATSANGS THAN COMBINED STRENGHT OF ALL PEOPLE PRESENT IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING U”
One moment of inner stillness is more valuable & enlightening than a lifetime of outer satsang.
And for all your “SITTING IN INDIA”, ignorance, intolerance, anger, pride, and self-righteous indignation is your bombastic “DIRTY” master.

Dear Mr OSHO and Mr Brian – fascinating blog this. Just fascinating.
Mr Evilbuster, I too am an initiate of Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon Ji. I have been for a number of years now. I understand how you may feel when you think people are criticising your Master and His teachings – it makes you upset and hurt. This is natural. We are, after all in human bodies and this is a natural human reaction.
However, one of the benefits of carrying out your meditation on a daily basis for the full 2.5 hrs sitting is that, in my opinion, it kind of detaches you from worldly opinion. I couldn’t really care if the whole world stood up and said my Master is a charlatan – I know that He is not. My experience on this path has shown me that he is not a charlatan.
I am one of the lucky few who has heard the shabad. Which sound I have heard I am not at liberty to say. Obviously Jake is not my real name – it’s best to keep some anonymity as you yourself think so – Mr ‘Evilbuster’ – lovely name by the way! [No sarcasm intended] So having heard the sound and having first hand experience of my Master knowing highly personal certain things about me that I had not told another living soul, gives me a good foundation that is not easily shaken.
So if anyone, like Mr OSHO (cracking name) is trying to reason with the teachings of my Master, I don’t think that there is any harm in this. Better that he is discussing Sant Mat than any number of other topics that young men seem to be fond of nowadays (boozing, strip clubs, smoking dope etc etc). So at least Mr OSHO is trying to make sense of it all. Is there anything wrong with that? I don’t think so, and I don’t think Master would mind either. Or else, as Mr OSHO himself said, Master would simply have ignored him and told him to sit down whenever Mr OSHO has had opportunity to have discussions with the Master.
Ok, so exactly why do I find this blog fascinating? It is because about a year ago I had the pleasure of sitting in the company of my Master during one of his unofficial visits, and during his discourse he said with words to the effect, (and don’t quote me on this), that the words ‘‘seeing the light’ is just symbolic.’ WOW! That statement blew my mind. I just thought at the time, “did anyone else just hear what I heard?!?” In my post satsang discussions with my near and dear ones no one else mentioned it. I thought that no one else had heard it apart from me, but I’m convinced we all heard it, just that some of us choose to have selective hearing and block out that which we do not understand.
[I need to keep this short or you’ll all die of boredom.] In my humble opinion, I think that Master now trusts us enough and sees that we are far enough advanced to move up a grade in sant mat. Huzur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji spent 40 years trying to persuade a lot of his initiates to sit for the full sitting every day – from the Q & A sessions I’ve heard over the years involving the present Master and the old initiates, it seems that many of them were simply failing to meditate. I’ve honestly lost count of the number of times some ‘bibis’ have stood up and said, ‘daya mer kuro,’ i.e. ‘I can’t meditate so you have to give me your grace and mercy to allow me to meditate.’
Whereas Baba Ji, since he became Master 20 years ago, has been hammering us to make us realise that we have to do our meditation – we have to cut out all of the b*llsh*t excuses and just do it; (from my years of study and numerous degrees later, I’ve noted that teachers/lecturers/professors sometimes adapt their teaching style if the students are not responding initially). Now that a lot of us initiates seem to be doing our full sittings (I sometimes meditate for 4 to 5 hours daily – not an ego thing just a statement), I fully believe that Master is preparing for us to move up a grade. So no, I don’t think that the old teachings are being contradicted in any way. In my opinion, I believe it is just that we have all developed to such an extent that Master trusts that we can start to handle the truth – we are now spiritually mature enough to handle the truth. I for one think that this is the beginning of a new dawn in spirituality, not just in sant mat, but across the whole world, whether you’re on this path or not. Exciting times my beloved friends. Radha Soami.

Dear Mr OSHO and Mr Brian – fascinating blog this. Just fascinating.
Mr Evilbuster, I too am an initiate of Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon Ji. I have been for a number of years now. I understand how you may feel when you think people are criticising your Master and His teachings – it makes you upset and hurt. This is natural. We are, after all in human bodies and this is a natural human reaction.
However, one of the benefits of carrying out your meditation on a daily basis for the full 2.5 hrs sitting is that, in my opinion, it kind of detaches you from worldly opinion. I couldn’t really care if the whole world stood up and said my Master is a charlatan – I know that He is not. My experience on this path has shown me that he is not a charlatan.
I am one of the lucky few who has heard the shabad. Which sound I have heard I am not at liberty to say. Obviously Jake is not my real name – it’s best to keep some anonymity as you yourself think so – Mr ‘Evilbuster’ – lovely name by the way! [No sarcasm intended] So having heard the sound and having first hand experience of my Master knowing highly personal certain things about me that I had not told another living soul, gives me a good foundation that is not easily shaken.
So if anyone, like Mr OSHO (cracking name) is trying to reason with the teachings of my Master, I don’t think that there is any harm in this. Better that he is discussing Sant Mat than any number of other topics that young men seem to be fond of nowadays (boozing, strip clubs, smoking dope etc etc). So at least Mr OSHO is trying to make sense of it all. Is there anything wrong with that? I don’t think so, and I don’t think Master would mind either. Or else, as Mr OSHO himself said, Master would simply have ignored him and told him to sit down whenever Mr OSHO has had opportunity to have discussions with the Master.
Ok, so exactly why do I find this blog fascinating? It is because about a year ago I had the pleasure of sitting in the company of my Master during one of his unofficial visits, and during his discourse he said with words to the effect, (and don’t quote me on this), that the words ‘‘seeing the light’ is just symbolic.’ WOW! That statement blew my mind. I just thought at the time, “did anyone else just hear what I heard?!?” In my post satsang discussions with my near and dear ones no one else mentioned it. I thought that no one else had heard it apart from me, but I’m convinced we all heard it, just that some of us choose to have selective hearing and block out that which we do not understand.
[I need to keep this short or you’ll all die of boredom.] In my humble opinion, I think that Master now trusts us enough and sees that we are far enough advanced to move up a grade in sant mat. Huzur Maharaj Charan Singh Ji spent 40 years trying to persuade a lot of his initiates to sit for the full sitting every day – from the Q & A sessions I’ve heard over the years involving the present Master and the old initiates, it seems that many of them were simply failing to meditate. I’ve honestly lost count of the number of times some ‘bibis’ have stood up and said, ‘daya mer kuro,’ i.e. ‘I can’t meditate so you have to give me your grace and mercy to allow me to meditate.’
Whereas Baba Ji, since he became Master 20 years ago, has been hammering us to make us realise that we have to do our meditation – we have to cut out all of the b*llsh*t excuses and just do it; (from my years of study and numerous degrees later, I’ve noted that teachers/lecturers/professors sometimes adapt their teaching style if the students are not responding initially). Now that a lot of us initiates seem to be doing our full sittings (I sometimes meditate for 4 to 5 hours daily – not an ego thing just a statement), I fully believe that Master is preparing for us to move up a grade. So no, I don’t think that the old teachings are being contradicted in any way. In my opinion, I believe it is just that we have all developed to such an extent that Master trusts that we can start to handle the truth – we are now spiritually mature enough to handle the truth. I for one think that this is the beginning of a new dawn in spirituality, not just in sant mat, but across the whole world, whether you’re on this path or not. Exciting times my beloved friends. Radha Soami.

Hi Jake,
It’s OK to be a satsangi here and tell
us your good results. Once again
we appreciate your honesty.
We kind of take all the various experiences
from everybody, both good and bad and throw
them out in the middle for examination.
So, if we can see all the good and bad,
that will give us a clear picture of the
entire scenario.
We get to see all the angles and therefore
come to better judgements.
So, everyone can be friends.

Seems to me the best way to tell if spirituality, of any sort, is complete crap – is simply to see if there is any money involved.
If there’s money involved, its a racket.
If someone intends preaching or lecturing on a topic as totally unverifiable and immaterial as spirituality, then at least do this without seeking power or commercial gain.
I don’t know if there is a spiritual aspect to our existence, but if there is it sure as hell resides in the transcendental aspects of our nature such as love, empathy, altruism, kindness – and not in drives for power, money, status, respect, exploitation and manipulation.
Seems to me there are at least two types of charlatans, those that knowingly exploit others and those who are so deluded that they actually believe their own nonsense. The latter is potentially even more dangerous since they tend to be far more believable, since they believe so completely themselves.
The issue of good and evil is also an interesting point. Is there actually evil in the world, and what is evil? The stronger evil is those who knowlingly manipulate others for one’s own gain, but it seems the more dangerous evil is of the more subtle kind where ppl believe their own ideologies so fundamentally that they are simply unable to even question them.

Jake….Delusion. Gurinder lervs you for it.

‘Jake’,
Thank you for your post.
I love and admire your openness and non defensive attitude………
Marina

Great post George,
Follow the money.
Oddly enough I don’t believe in a God.
But, do believe an evil force and a positive
force exist. I say this after 40 years of
investigating many many groups.
To Marina off another thread. We like
negative feedback on this club. But, Brian
and I know things we don’t tell you about
what the Gurus do to try and stop websites
and clubs.
The Guru preaches love, but dishes out
hate off camera. They are superficial,
low class, two bit scam artists.
People are worshiping sociopanths and
don’t know it.
They are the lowest form of humanity
on the earth.
Nothing they told people is true.
They are evil incarnate. To worship evil,
one invites evil into themselves.
I would like any one to tell me their
Radhasoami guru is a good person.
Is a guru’s family who made a billion dollars off his flock a good person, while
his flock live in poverty ?
Is a Guru who steals land from his
own people a good person ?
Are Gurus who lied about their history
and theology good people ?
You know Faquir Chand called them criminals
who will have to account for their actions.
Yes, Brian has all the opposite qualities.
Qualities that have earned him respect.

Ok Mike,
I do hear what you are saying.
But that is not my experience.
BJ to me is a good person. (Now Mike you did ask) I do understand that you and Brian and a lot of others don’t.
I don’t know what ‘stuff’ you mean when you say the Gurus try to stop websites and clubs like this or any other. In fact, I never heard him say anything like that, but then again, I have not a close relationship to him like some of you have. So I am not saying you are lying Mike, or anyone else is.
If I heard BJ say at Dera that we should not go on websites / clubs (like this), believe you me, I would be first up to the mike and asking questions about it.
I don’t see the harm in this club and I am sick of hearing myself say that. I do wondor how people think I don’t like ‘negetive’ if there is such a word, feedback.I find it very interesting although, if I am honest sometimes it feels like a pain, when I see how I react to posts or not :))) but all part of the fun and ‘learning’. Unbelievably so!
Marina

“Jake”,
Whatever experiences you have in meditation have nothing to do with your guru. He may be a spirituality advanced person (maybe not) so that he could tell you things about yourself that only you knew, but this doesn’t mean that he is responsible for YOUR experiences. It is between you and God only.
Without money, none of these commercial gurus would even have a following, let alone an empire. That is something to bear in mind. Spirituality should be empowering and a mature adult should take responsibility for their own destiny. If someone comes along, disempowers you by claiming to be your channel to life and existence to God and at the same time hoardes property, amasses wealth and does no work, encourages adulation and so on, this person doesn’t have your best interests at heart and is trying to overpower you.
Unfortunately, in India it is considered ordinary for seekers to need a guru, when in actuality they just need a teacher who can teach them until they master the subject or experience. By chaining their disciple to themselves, these gurus explicitly condone subservience for eternity and not nirvana or freedom; they promote ignorance. Buddha didn’t claim to be a guru, he was just a teacher. That was one of the most beautiful things about the Buddha.
Last but not least, how can any guru live your life for you? Do they experience your total experience, total life, memories etc? Decidedly not.
The goal is not to become one with the guru but to become one with Brahman or God or however you want to term it.

Marina writes:
“I don’t know what ‘stuff’ you mean when you say the Gurus try to stop websites and clubs like this or any other. In fact, I never heard him say anything like that…”
-and-
“If I heard BJ say at Dera that we should not go on websites / clubs (like this), believe you me, I would be first up to the mike and asking questions about it.”
Marina,
You are clearly uninformed. In 1996, Gurinder and RSSB issued and published a formal directive that instructed all initiated RS satsangis to NOT discuss Sant Mat or RS etc via the internet, in any form whatsoever. That directive has never been rescinded.
FYI… Here below is the official RSSB internet prohibition directive (issued by Gurinder Singh), which was published as a formal notice to all RS satsangis in the March and May 1996 RSSB Newsletters. It instructs all RS satsangis (initiates) to refrain from using the internet (email, websites, blogs, etc.) to discuss, debate, preach, advertise, or communicate in any way about Sant Mat and/or RS:
The following are excerpts from the RSSB Newsletter. All text below, except for the month and year in brackets, is verbatim and complete:
——————————————–
[RSSB-A Newsletter – MARCH 1996]
Use of E-Mail and other electronic media for Sant Mat purposes.
The following statement was recently received from the Dera:
“Satsangis should not use E-mail or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites and homepages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat.”
Possible exceptions to the policy may be made for projects under the direct supervision of the RSSB-A Board.
——————————————–
[RSSB-A Newsletter – MAY 1996]
Use of Electronic Media for Sant Mat Communications.
As a follow-up to the statement in the March issue regarding the use of E-Mail and the Internet for Sant Mat communications, we have recently received the following letter [from RSSB Dera]:
“With access to electronic media such as the Internet and the Web Site now being available to many in this age of communication, it is found that they are being used increasingly for the exchange of information between satsangis and other groups concerning Radha Soami Satsang Beas and the spiritual teachings of Sant Mat. This information may be factually correct; however, there may be inaccuracies in either of fact or interpretation. Sometimes we are portrayed positively, sometimes negatively.
“Naturally, satsangis can get perturbed at seeing us presented in an inaccurate manner or interpreted in an incorrect way. It is emphasized, however, that our path is one of pure spirituality, and concerns an individual personally. It is a path where we try to avoid controversies. We do not want to react to others, criticize others, nor to create any kind of disharmony or unpleasantness with anyone by pursuing the matter unnecessarily.
“Therefore, it would be better to ignore whatever may appear on the electronic media concerning ourselves. We need not bother or worry ourselves about how other portray us or see us, even if they view us in an unfavourable light.
“Satsangis are advised not to use E-mail, or other media such as Internet to conduct satsangs, formal or informal, or to communicate or distribute Sant Mat teachings, Sant Mat literature, Sant Mat related photographs, satsangi names, addresses and initiation data, or other similar material of confidential nature. In addition, Web-Sites & Home Pages should not be used for any purpose at all connected with Sant Mat.”
[end]

Tao i was adviced by Gurinder to go to internet and read and check everything especialy critic. Almost ten years ago. My almost all search and readings before initiation come from internet.Peace

And yes Tao, Mike, Brian. If you ever travel Europe you are welcome to my house with full hospitality, really.
And this little story comes to my mind.
The Four Musketeers
Us four would go everywhere and have fune and we would come to my home and went to sleep and in the morning there would be stories in each room.
Tao would chant Krishnas stuff and spice and colouring everything a little bit with my drum.
Mike: ‘Uf which technique i will use today so many gurus and techniques so when i count them all two hours will pass’..
Brian: ‘Should i start simran from the last name or maybe the middle i don’z know. Or should i spell them reverse, yes that will work and in Chinese language, oh yes …The One..THE ONE..but hey..who’s the one where is the one what what the one,one two three no one, or maybe should i write a new book and it will be called ‘My jogging is blogging’..yes’
And me:
Oh gosh it’s already morning time to meditate..ah i will do it tomorrow.
my left side: no manana man and my right side oh yes manana…and on and on.. Uf i will try a little bit of Taos Krishna stuff of immediate consciousness..eh but i forgot all those words he instructed to me..uf i will try Mikes Pranahuti..ah but there is no master alive and i yet to have order the book..ah i think i will stuck to my dry simran but maybe in the evening i am to sleepy right now.hrrr..
Just for fun!
But seriously guys if you ever come to Europe my doors are widely open for you with all the food, trips around and sleeping place. I will serve you big time. PECE

I had a look at the RSSB Seeker’s Guide about two years ago. It specifically suggested that seekers should research on the internet and suggested putting ‘radhasoami’ in a search engine as a start.
I’ll see if I can get my hands on a recent copy and post the details.

Mungos, thanks for the hospitality offer. Most generous of you. I haven’t been to Europe since 1968, but who knows what the future could bring.

Thanks tAo for informing me;)
No I never heard anything about that and being honest I don’t go for much of the ‘rules’ that these newsletters put out. I suppose I say to myself that it doesn’t apply to me! Lol Actually, one of my pet hates is rules!!!! Oh, I can’t stand them. I know there has to be some, just to try and give guidelines as it could end up like Lord of the flies. But I do like ‘breaking’ them, quietly, when it suits me, but not throwing it in people’s face. What I am trying to say is; I basically do my own ‘quiet’ thing.
Being serious for a moment, whether the newsletter did say that, and I believe you, I think it was because people were getting confused and scared so it was a general thing to help people, if you want to say protect, people from their feelings – nothing wrong with that. Like I say, ‘if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen’!
I do believe what TonyM and Mungos says too. I can’t imagine BJ, now saying, don’t go on this website or that one, I think he would like people to get ‘challenged’ and be open, as it can do away with all this ‘notionate’ stuff we can go on with. If BJ started saying things like “The Church of the Chuchless’ was a cult, I would have to question him as one of my teachers. Why, because I think I wouldn’t like to take ‘advice’ from someone who puts down another group for their ‘beliefs/truths. At the end of the the day, I think we are all ‘looking’ the same thing and we all have our own preferences.
Even if it did come out that we shouldn’t frequent sites like this, I would still do it. I wouldn’t’ see it applying to me. The reason being, I feel it helps me getting other peoples opinion – even if it differs from my own. And I think you are all nice lil pussy cats, disguised as lions – sometimes. 😉
I am not worried about what is written on this site. I think it has helped me to be more open and see the other side of the picture and hopefully I won’t react too much or criticize. Nothing wrong with giving our picture of it though as openly and as honest as we can.
Marina 🙂

Yo Mungos, you are from Europe too!!!!
If you are ever in my neck of the woods – drop in!!
It’s funny. When I see you inviting Brian and other to ‘call’ if ever in Europe.
I had it in my head, if I was ever over in Oreagon, I think that is where Brian is from, I would surely pop in to see him. I see him as an old friend and would love to meet him in person, an interesting character.
But on the other side of things, yes Brian and anybody else, if any of you are in my neck of the woods, I would love to see ye and welcome ye with open arms….;)I would have a big welcome on the mat!

At my place you are all welcome.

Come Brian come.

Marina,
You said: “I don’t go for much of the ‘rules’ that these newsletters put out.”
— I don’t think you quite understand, it wasn’t the “newsletters” that put out (made) those “rules”, it was a formal directive from the head honcho GSD and the RSSB home office. Moreover, the directive has never been formally rescinded, no matter what folks like Tara may speculate upon about GSD getting more “savvy” and liberal about the internet.
“I suppose I say to myself that it doesn’t apply to me! Actually, one of my pet hates is rules”
— Well, the RSSB has long been an authoritarian guru cult which rigidly adheres to doctrine and dogma, and so bending the rules to suit yourself (like you seem to want to do), is still very much frowned upon. Its obvious that some younger satsangis seem to want to make up their own versions of the path. However the RSSB does not sanction that. If you don’t believe me, then go ask them. You can do whatever you like and make it up as you go along, but thats not what RS and its guru teaches.
“I know there has to be some [rules], just to try and give guidelines as it could end up like Lord of the flies. But I do like ‘breaking’ them, quietly, when it suits me”
— Then you are not serious and you have no discipline, and your sadhana will be worthless and wasted. Foolishness befitting of a clown. Good luck with that.
“What I am trying to say is; I basically do my own ‘quiet’ thing.”
— Then you are not practicing sant mat as RS and its sants and gurus have taught it.
“whether the newsletter did say that…”
— If you doubt that, then I have nothing more to say to you. I think you are basically a joker and a troll. You are just here to clown around and play games. Fyi, many long time satsangis will verify what I posted.
“I think it was because people were getting confused and scared so it was a general thing to help people”
— I’m not interested in your empty speculations.
“Like I say, ‘if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen’”
— You ought to try practicing what you preach.
“I do believe what TonyM and Mungos says”
— Well, Mungos seems to be a nice guy, but in this case, he just doesn’t know what the hell he is talking about. He missed the all-important fact that the RSSB internet prohibition directive, was only for initiated satsangis, not seekers.
“If BJ started saying things like “The Church of the Chuchless’ was a cult, I would have to question him as one of my teachers.”
— You sure seem to be infatuated and obsessed with this BJ character. You have like a teen-age groupie mentality.
“because I think I wouldn’t like to take ‘advice’ from someone who puts down another group for their ‘beliefs/truths.”
— Well in case you didn’t know, Sar Bachan is full of that sort of thing. So why then are you flirting with Sant mat and RS? Sounds like you are a bit of a hypocrite.
“At the end of the the day, I think we are all ‘looking’ the same thing and we all have our own preferences.”
— I totally diagree. Imo, people are definitely NOT “all looking for the same thing’. Far from it. Thats absurd.
“Even if it did come out that we shouldn’t frequent sites like this”
— Its not any “if”. Its a fact. GSD and the RSSB issued a formal directive requesting all initiated satsangis to not discuss (etc) sant mat or RS on the internet. Go back and read it. It doesn’t matter what you think, or doubt.
“I wouldn’t’ see it applying to me.”
— Then you don’t respect and bow to the wishes and instructions of your master. But thats your choice.
“I think you are all nice lil pussy cats, disguised as lions”
— well then, you really don’t know me.
“I am not worried about what is written on this site.”
— No one has said that you should be worried.
“I think it has helped me”
— Great… if you feel that way, then good for you. I am sure it has helped others as well.

Mungos,
thanks for the invite dude. but would you mind if i brought along some coke and jack daniels, some cold cerveza, and some hot biker chicks? unless you already have all those available. i try not to go anywhere without these basic essentials. and btw, are you in the UK?
Marina,
thanks for your invite as well. the above necessities apply here as well. but also, i really like marinas *grin* because i like sailboats and yachts and mediterranean seaside beaches. so if your place is in close proximity to boats, beaches, and babes… then i’ll be sure to come and stay for a good long while. I’ll be arriving tomorrow.

Good evening tAo,
tAo wrote:
”I think you are basically a joker and a troll. You are just here to clown around and play games. Fyi, many long time satsangis will verify what I posted.
And there was I thinking the blog was in great form this morning……;)
Now, to tell you the truth, I had to look up ‘troll’ on the internet, because the only trolls I know of are the little doll things, with big hair – and I was pretty sure you didn’t mean that:))
Here is what I found;
• 1) Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it’s the internet and, hey, you can
• 2) Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet, generally on message boards. When done in a moderated internet community, this can result in banning
• 3) Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other foolishness
Now out of curiosity tAo, which of list above are you referring to (or maybe all)?
And can you back up your ‘thoughts’ on why you said that?
By the way folks, does ANYONE else here feel like tAo, just really curious????
Thanks tAo for the info on “The Zen Teaching of Huang-Po:
On the Transmission of Mind”. I shall definitely check it out!
Marina ;))

tAo,
my place is not on the mediterranean though I am two minutes walk from the beach, which I can see from my house. Just across an open field and there it is.
As for babes, not too sure if there are the kind you like as I don’t pass too much remarks of babes – they just arn’t my type!
You can do what you like, drink what you like, eat what you like, as long as you just don’t force your opinions on me, there is no rules……..
Marina 🙂

Oops tAo,
My last post quote“You can do what you like, drink what you like, eat what you like, as long as you just don’t force your opinions on me, there is no rules……..
This could be taken out of context, I meant if you come to my house these things will apply……;)
Marina

Yo Tao the invite was honest and i know that you are not doing that with what you are teasing me. My invite was more of like that of introducing you to my wife and my little children and running around the country. I can only give that what i am living and what i have achieved nothing more nothing less No not the Uk.Peace

And Tao i am in old school of respecting olders, i was taught like that and i will never never act upon you with my disrespect even if you come and hit my head with the stick i would ever rather run like hell. Peace and Respect

To Tara and readers,
I quite understand. i am sure you know more than i do about whats going on with the RS boss and his moves nowadays. sorry if i sounded cynical. you said that he was
against the internet in the beginning, but he’s saying something else today. i don’t doubt that.
My point was simply that, as you yourself have said, “nothing is ever recorded and the changes are never explicitly made clear to the Sangat”. thats basically my point — the 1996 internet restriction directive was formally issued by Gurinder Singh, but yet it has never been formally rescinded by Gurinder Singh.
I don’t doubt that he keeps changing things, i just think its utter bullshit to make an official announcement and rule back in 1996, and then after some years time, to now just ignore it and never formally rescind it. he should simply come out and say how it is now, one way or the other.
There are people (satsangis), many satsangis, who are still faithfully and rigidly following that 1996 directive. and then there are other people (like our friend Marina and other folks in the past who have come here to this blog to discuss and debate about sant mat), especially younger satsangis, who now take a much more easygoing and liberal stance, and thus they refuse to follow that formal 1996 directive (which the guru never officially rescinded).
I think its extremely irresponsible and dishonest of this guy to play confusing games with people who are sincerely trying to follow the path as it is set forth by the master.
So I think it just goes to show what a pretentious and narcissistic jerk he really is. all he has to do is come out and officially say that its alright for satsangis to talk about sant mat and RS on the internet. how difficult is that? it takes all of ten seconds to write a memo. so whats the big f’ing deal? …well??
Well, the deal is, that this dude is really just a chameleon who likes to confuse his poor followers in order to manipulate them and keep them subjegated.
If he issued an offical instruction (a directive) back in 1996 (which obviously he did), and now decides that it is no longer reasonable, then he should simply tell the sangat and all the local reps to publically announce (via satsangs and newsletters) that he has now decided that its OK for RS satsangis to talk and communicate about sant mat on the internet. simple as that. but, since is not doing that, then i can only conclude that he is a rather irresponsible and reprehensible fellow, and a very poor guru. actually, he’s not a guru at all. he is just a common materialistic businessman out to make tons of money by using his religious power and position. he is not a true guru at all. he is a sham.
Anyway Tara, i wasn’t getting down on you personally. you know me better than that. i was simply trying to make a point, as i have explained in detail above.
——————————————–
To RS satsangis and to readers in general:
For the record, i personally don’t give a damn what people (satsangis) do… they can talk about sant mat as much as they like. i support freedom of speech. i don’t think cult gurus, sants, RS masters, etc have any business telling people what they can and can’t talk about… anywhere. i think it just shows how controlling and arrogant this RS master really is (or was).
If it was me, i wouldn’t give that bastard the time of day. he doesn’t deserve diddly squat. what has he done for anyone? he done away with any charity. He buys up property and stock. he lives in wealth and luxury and gets all his expenses paid, while the poor sevadar sers toil in the dirt. he flies first class or by private jet. and the list goes on.
He is not a sant… not a humble devotee of the supreme divine godhead. he is nothing but a puffwed-up imposter. he is a taker and a user, not a giver.
People who follow him, who foolishly believe in him, are being mislead due to their blindness and ignorance and gullibleness. he is a false guru and a false god. those who follow him, are literally wasting their own precious lives.
To those who are still caught up in this cult, this web of illusion and deceipt, i say that you should think deeply upon what i have said, and liberate yourself from this false guru middle-man.
The divine presence is waiting for you to throw off this veil of nonsense, darkness and nescience. simply turn and commune directly and receive the guidance of the supreme intelligence and pure love of the divine presence.
You don’t need any cults or (false) gurus or similar intermediaries. you will never find what you are looking for in so-called masters or their satsangs. you will only find the divine presence right here and now, right where it has always been.
So why do you exchange the infinite love and wisdom and guidance of the divine presence… for some cheap cult guru, some sham, some imposter?
Do you really think that the supremely intelligent and loving divine godhead would actually somehow require you to follow some minor cult and guru???
Think again.

I’m curious about the “Faithfully Rigid” how are they coping with all?

” you will only find the divine presence right here and now, right where it has always been.”
quote Tao
Nice post Tao. You know, I just thought
of something. I have never heard of any
one ever getting their money back from
a Guru.
People just slink away.

tAo,
You stand corrected as you admitted yourself, good. That is a good sign!
I also like your new usage of the English language, now my granny can read it without blushing.
tAo says:
”For the record, i personally don’t give a damn what people (satsangis) do… they can talk about sant mat as much as they like. i support freedom of speech
Well it sure doesn’t come across that way.
tAo says:
”It doesn’t matter what you think, or doubt.
Mere speculation tAo. It matters to me.
Again tAo utters:
”I think you are basically a joker and a troll.
More mere speculation which tAo cannot back up! Just all empty opinions with no back up :)))
So again I will send the post back to you.
”Return to sender……..
Address unknown
No such person
No one home………
Marina

I must say tho i find it very rich for the HKs to criticise RS as a cult – if anything over the years its the HKs who’ve had very poor press in this regard. And their beliefs are just as pokey.
As for Osho charging money for his spiritual meetings, i do wonder if there is any sincerity to any of this hokum at all, or if they all just charlatans as I originally suspected, before dabbling in the mystical waters of psychological claptrap.
And Marina, you are too sensitive, dont listen too ppl who try force their opinions on you or tell you what you doing wrong or think they know better – I’m pretty sure none of them know a damn thing in any case – do whatever makes u happiest and dont be led down the garden path by everyone that bends your ear.

how the hell would i know? i have no idea how they’re coping. i suppose they are afraid to think for themselves. the radha soami zombieland… coming to a satsang near you. anybody up for some zombie hunting?
and well, i guess, like Tara said, they’re probably royally confused. but isn’t that the general idea? to keep eveyone confused long enough to suck out their blood and money. that strategy must be working pretty darn well.

Dear Tao if you would leave you would leave and i think you are more in it than many others. You cannot leave and so you are telling everybody to leave even to those who already left like me actualy i never was there. When someone comes with old RS stuff you do not help him you attack him, ok maybe the attack also helps to someone i don’t know that.But guess what i never saw this news letters as restrictions and i am way of than phlegm. Look, my music teacher also and even more sharply said to me, ‘Do not go to the internet and discuss with other musicians go home and play and practice like hell if you wan’t to reach there where great musicians are’ And i took it as an advice not restriction and i was not hypnotised by him it was an advice man and it was upon me to apply it and sometimes i do and sometimes i don’t but that does not mean that i am not respecting him. But Tao i must say the last long post of you i really liked you know why cause you drop out many of your insults and i think it better suits you like that.
If you really know my Respect to you you would be amzed how respected you can be. And i think that 40+ years of meditation which you got from Charan also gave you your wisdom and He said there are many schools of concentration and i am also using Sant mat for concentration but from then on who knows. As for organisation, who said i have to obey their direct way nobody really. I was brought up in some manner and i know when i get angry when to pull out, when i insult, when i have a problem and when i should fix it in my self. Tao i went to a music school and they have their own rules and sometimes even more strict than in army and with my manner i am trying to follow them and i cannot assure to anybody that i would be able to fill them all. And also i feel the same in RS. Immediately some news comes most of the people obey that rule religiously and they are willing to fight for that, but where does that come from? I think if i again draw the line with music that many people are more into obeying the rules and some small practical advices than real practice. And they deny that feeling of not practicing in them self and for that moment they kind of stay in their own lie. But even that can be fixed and mostly by them selves. Tao even your master Charan said that he does not agree with Jullian Johnson’s writing approach and that now that writer is not alive he will not change anything in the book. And similarly i have music books on technique of my instrument from passed musicians and i have a real teacher who says this was good this does not fit you this is no good and so on but this does not change the fact that that passed musician was not a master of his instrument. And even i, do like in my music, i chew many things and than i spit out what is not suitable for me. Remember what Bruce Lee borrowed i think from Krishnamurti:
‘Use what is useful and reject what is not useful’
So i have no problem if teaching changes and that differs from books and i would never say to my teacher that he is a hypocrite cause Dear Tao with his help i learned how to play my instrument well. be well and pack your bags and come to me for fun and Tao remember what i said about my Respect to you. Love you and like you man,PEACE

Are the Church of the Churchless folk really what they say they are?
On pondering on this question, I have to come up with the answer, generally no.
To back up why I have come to this conclusion, well let me just say that I find no difference in what this blog is doing than any other religion/spiritual path/people in general who are grasping onto the ‘teachings’ / ‘writings’ / beliefs as if their whole life depends on it. (For a lot of folk on this blog – not all)
All groups seem to have some aspects of this trait, in some form or other, and are generally associated with strong adherence to a set of beliefs – in other words fundamentalists.
Defending their group and putting another down; The very thing they claim these other groups are doing by:
——————————————–
—Seeing only their own side of things.
—Being generally closed minded regarding other viewpoints.
—Attacking anyone who goes against their group’s beliefs.
—Sticking together, backing up each other at the cost of another person, even if the other person may have a point that could be just as true.
—Putting up with personal attack/insult against this other as long as it helps the cause.
—Ostracise anyone on the outside if their feelings still don’t coincide with the groups.
—Not answering questions or giving reasons honestly, but blame, to make their point.
—Clinging onto something that they see as important – out of fear. Fear of what?
—Refusing to be open – their view being right.
—Secretly or publically claiming and being proud of ‘belonging to a special group’.
—Wanting to be right, more than the truth – their own inner truth.
—Not checking in with their inner feelings or enquiring as to ‘why’ I need to attack whatever to see where they themselves arereally coming from. Taking responsibility.
—Unwillingness to see some other side, therefore still causing separation.
—Judging someone without knowing all the facts.
——————————————-
Like all groups, you do have a few who are open, willing to hear the ‘other’ side, though not always agreeing, will agree to disagree and come to a neutral ground realising ‘each to their own journey’ and I have no problem with that.
George you made some very interesting points. I don’t know who the HK’s are but I get the drift.
And yes, I do agree that every group can have an element of, as you say ‘their beliefs being just as pokey’.[as the next]
George you also mentioned Osho and how he is charging money for his ‘spiritual meetings’. I have a different point of view on that. I don’t see that as any different from someone writing a book on spirituality or anything useful and charging money for it. People do have to make a living some way. And again, I will speak for myself, Osho’s You Tube videos really ‘did’ something for me. If Osho was a couple of miles away doing his Transformtion Day, I would definitely go (if he gave it to me for £99) 🙂 I am sure if Osho had ‘all the money in the world’ he would ‘give’ his talks for free.(or maybe not)
George, regarding me being too sensitive, I use to believe that too, because I couldn’t handle it, it left me wide open. Over the years after ‘looking’ into it though, I see it as strength, though I have not always felt that way.
In the former years of my life I was sensitive to everything and if I felt an ‘atmosphere’ for instance anger, because I felt it, I owned it, if that makes sense. I blamed myself.
For me it is not a bad thing, as I say it does leave me open to other people’s views, it annihilates that rigid, hard feeling of having to be right.
Yes it does have its good sides and its challenging sides.
I can be vulnerable to ‘hurt’ but I do end up asking myself what is actually hurting. Who is it that is hurting? Then, comes the laugh. Truthfully though, it can take time to get to the laugh – the deeper the ‘hurt’ the more enquiring it takes but these moments do have the biggest belly laugh ).
I know there is no blaming anyone, any other person because if someone said something that “I” find hurtful, angry, annoying……. it is something I already believe to some extent or I wouldn’t feel that way, it’s impossible. Ok I can be surprised but not hurt or angry. So I usually end up getting to the ‘bottom’ of whatever is going on and the buck always lies with me! Always!!!(even if I don’t see it that way)
George, one thing I learned on this blog is that I can listen to other people’s opinions and allow them to have their own and also if people ‘attack’ (for better words) me, it doesn’t cause me real hurt because as I said it leads me back to myself and what is real for me.
Hey, I always was a sucker for the other side!! Defence is the 1st form of attack and we all have an idea of that from an army point of view.
Many people who are looking for the truth or the ‘source’ of things often deny what is presently happening. We can deny what is occurring in favour of waiting for or pretending some ideal or being right. Some of us try to find it out there, some of us try to find it by making themselves ‘better’ people, all according to ideals or standards that we have ‘picked’ up. Neither group ends up being satisfied. Like what Ramana says not quoting verbatim, the self-identity can never be satisfied or find the truth. It can only be relieved temporarily, since its very base is fear. Just more characters in the make believe dream world.
If I stand with my view point over here (with my attitudes and beliefs) then others will be forced to come over here, or me there – I am forced either to oppose or give in, to apply rigid ideas or give up.
If I am already open minded I am already over there, a part of ‘us’, then I don’t need to oppose or attack. I can adjust my side of the relationship in the moment, to the whole relationship – to what is actually happening. It is by holding ourselves as being apart, and attempting to protect that stance, that prevents us from being in touch with the whole, causing big separation.
I personally try to understand the whole picture as what Brian says comes to mind ”I don’t like it when people say things like “You’re a ……” online when they really have no idea what sort of a person they’re communicating with. But then again maybe we do, as how we see others is how we are ourselves. (Boy that quote of Brian’s took some effort to find. 🙂
Marina 🙂

George,
you wrote: As for Osho charging money for his spiritual meetings, i do wonder if there is any sincerity to any of this hokum at all.
Who said they are ‘spiritual meetings’ – whatever spiritual means!
This has nothing to do with ‘sincerity’. I am offering a seminar – and it has a price tag. It’s a business – not a charity.
My seminar is called Transformation Day. It’s about facing the truth about how you live your life – it’s about awareness – it’s about opening up to what your life is really all about – it’s about self-discovery. During the event I create an environment in which the participants open up and are able to get insights into themselves.
As for charging – I am running a business. I am not pretending to be some spiritual organisation. It’s a seminar – it costs me money to hire a hall for the event. I have staff that I pay. I don’t ask for donations. It’s a service – and I only want a person to attend who want to be there.
I have no idea where you got the notion that they are some kind of ‘spiritual meetings’.
In the real world – things cost money. They have to be paid for one way or another. In RSSB satsangs – you get the illusion it’s all free – but it’s not. People pay in terms of their time – free labour – but they call it seva. People also give financial donatons. RSSB UK – registered as a charity (no 1013061) currently has over 14 millions pounds in funds – plus a lot more in assets.
Their official purpose is to advance the Radha Soami Faith – for the spiritual and moral advancement of humanity – and for charitable purposes.

TAo
humerous.
Most of the satsangis are:
(1) On social security and have hearing aids
or are
(2) Asian
Fresh, non-Asian satsangis are hard to find these days. A few sons and daughters of satsangi’s find there way to Sant Mat. But for the Western, non-Asian, SM is mostly dead. Why? IMO, the whole presentation and delivery is antiquated. Young, Western, people can’t relate to it.
Western people came in good number in the late 60’s through most of the 80’s. Hippies (LSD inspired), others inspired by interest of Beatles in TM MMYogi, last remnants from the Theosophical Society, and many devoted Christians (esp. Catholics) found their way to Charan Singh and Kirpal. Society has changed, young people are exquisitely savvy, value openness, are highly interactive- and are not only wary of traditional religious authority and dogmas but many have no cultural religious sentiments! Overheard some young adults chatting about a movie and the dude said “what’z up with all the Jesus crap anyhow?”

I think Betty has a good point Re:young people being wary of traditional religious authority and dogmas…..and no cultural religious sentiments!
In this day and age, there is not the same empahais on ‘practicing’ their religion, in fact, mine was never brought to mass because they didn’t like it and because I agreed that it was boring,I never forced them. In fact, their granny on their fathers side, whom we lived beside, constanly tried to get them to go as she seen ‘they need some religion’.
I think that has ‘saved’ them in some way as they wern’t subjected to ‘all those hellish things and evil’ that my generation was.
I think they will find their own way – they know themselves.
I never forced RS onto them or made them be vegetarians – they were 9, 7, & 6 at the time.
I can see how I got into RS as it promised ‘salvation’ being saved, which was what I thought I needed.
Again for me, I liken RS to the Ramana ghost story. Me being the little girl wanting to hold onto her fathers hand so she will be saved from the ‘ghost’…….
Of course until I see there is no ‘ghost’ (self) to be saved and then I can finally let go and say thank you for being there while I needed you.
Marina

dr…well said on 2 June!

Marina,
Agree that sensitivity is a great strength, but you also gotta be careful of merely being subservient to the whim and psycologies of others, and becoming victimised by others who dont actually know any better. Introspection’s fine, but dont overdo it, no-one’s perfect and no-one knows the answers, not even close. Bottomline you never have to apologise for your beliefs or your opinion, if others want to attack you, tough shit.
Osho videotape;s were very clear, but I am circumpsect of two issues:
i) the lists drawn up were not RS teachings, they were interpretation of so-called v1 and v2 versions. There was no source anywhere in the video indicating that his interpretations are verifiable. They might be, but we dont know, its sourceless conjecture.
ii) someone mentioned his charging for spirituality, which I personally find extremely offensive. But i guess if ppl are foolish enough to waste their money, then they get what they deserve. However, imo anyone who tries to make a living from spirituality is immediately suspect, unless its solely for charitable purposes. Perhaps the one thing that is the strongest and only evidence for a higher transcendental realm or spirituality are concepts like charity and altruism – making money does not feature in any of true precepts of the worlds great religions or moral teachings.
Osho,
But what service are you running? What are your expertise to justify such costs? Is your intention to make money or to help other ppl? What do you think makes you qualified to help other people? What if all this self-help nonsense is actually doing more damage to them than anything else?
I can understand like-minded people getting together and exploring their ideas together, but good god almighty all i know is a fool and his money are soon parted.
Well anyway that my viewpoint, who knows maybe all these self-help and new-age gurus do make a difference, i think they make it worse, and have absolutely nothing to sell and certainly no verifiable knowledge.

Well George,
I know, I know, I can take others ‘word’ over my own and end up confused; just one of my little weaknesses (self doubt) that I am aware of, and at this stage noticing more than ‘trying’ to fix it. But hey, old habits can take time to drop.
Introspection – yep I can take that one to the limits. People have pointed that out to me here on this blog. But I sometimes choose to take the huff because maybe it was ‘given’ to me a tad sarcastically or ignorantly. One thing I do notice and I am not sure if it works for other people the same but, the way to my heart is not by forcing or being angry with me but by being genuine even if they are disagreeing. Another strong reaction due to my experiences of life! Ah we all have our own lessons!
But yes, I will be more aware of it.
On Osho’s take on SM, I just take it that he is giving his version of how things seem to be changing as I have adapted the ‘teachings’ as years pass.
By that I mean, I drop the ‘needs’ or false assumptions. I don’t think BJ is going to do it for me; for me he is only pointing the way. I have taken him of his pedestal long ago, although being aware he never asked me to put him there. I think it all has to do with taking responsibility for myself.
I do think we all see RS or any other teaching from our own perspective and where we are at ourselves. I do respect peoples own views on this and all I am asking is for people to respect mine – even if we don’t agree.
Thanks George, I appreciate your comment.
Marina

Marina,
Yes I thought Osho’s video was very clear, but i had no idea there was a market going on behind his talks etc.
This straight away brings into question what is it that he is peddling and does he himself have an agenda to try show that RS is moving towards his own belief system. In other words, that his particular brand of spirituality is more progressive or advanced and that RS is now only catching up.
If ppl are interested in that sort of thing, thats there business, but thats exactly why i personally am very retiscent of spirituality since to me it just seems like a racket. Most of teh gods, cosmologies and experiences are all so different, they cant all be right, so the most logical assumption is that none of them are. And when money is involved it really is the icing on mans cake.

Mungos,
Apparently you have several misconceptions about me.
(a) I never said anything about ‘leaving’. nor did i tell anyone else to “leave”. nor am i “into” whatever it is that you seem to think i am “into”. you are either misinterpreting or making unfounded assumptions.
(b) I have not attacked anyone. i simply posted some factual info (excerpts from the RS newsletters), and also a few of my own personal opinions. thats all. i have not attacked anyone.
(c) The internet restriction was published in the RSSB sangat newsletters. and it’sobvious that it clearly was restrictive. thats not an opinion, thats a fact. just read what it says. restriction was the purpose of it. and just because you don’t see it as being restrictive, doesn’t change the fact that its obvious purpose was to restrict satsangis from discussing santmat/RS on the internet. that was very clear. your personal opinions, and how you feel about it, doesn’t change that fact.
(d) Fyi, i did not “get” 40 years of meditation and wisdom from Charan. I have done meditation since 1966. Charan had nothing to do with that. RS initiation was thru Charan, but that occured years later. and Charan had zero to do with mny meditation or any wisdom that i may have acquired. wisdom comes through real life experience and work. it doesn’t come from cult gurus. nor does Chran deserve any credit for my meditation. Charan did not do the meditation, i did. so i don’t know where you got this idea that Charan gave me anything. he didn’t. i did not derive anything from Charan. all he did was to accept and approve my initiation application. he gets no credit whatsoever for my doing 40 years of meditation.
(e) What “insults” are you talking about. where exactly did i “insult” someone?? actually, some people here have been insulting to me lately, but i have not insulted anyone. so i don’t accept your implication. i think you misinterpreting, and perhaps also parroting other trollish detractors.
(f) I don’t care about what Julian Johnson wrote.
(g) I never said that any “teacher” of mine was a hypocrite. so what/who are you referring to??
——————————————
Marina,
Your list revolves around your incorrect premise that this blog is some kind of unified “group” or cult, like RS.
No, it is definitely NOT. it is simply various different and independent individuals, who hold many different opinions with some similar and some opposing viewpoints.

Marina,
everyone hears what they want to hear. I have heard Gurinder tell people not to put him on a pedestal and to talk to him on the same level. At the same time – He still does the ritual of giving darshan before satsang.
People make of it what they want to make. We are all looking through our own personal filters – and we all have different conclusions

George,
what costs are you talking about? I charge 99 pounds for a full day seminar. There’s nothing to justify. If a person gets nothing from it – i give them a full refund.

George wrote:
Yes I thought Osho’s video was very clear, but i had no idea there was a market going on behind his talks etc.
There is no market going on behind my videos. Transformation Day is UNRELATED to this blog and to sant mat. I am not likely to pick up any students from this blog and I have no intention to do so. If that was my intention – then I would have created something more relevant to this blog.
George wrote:
This straight away brings into question what is it that he is peddling and does he himself have an agenda to try show that RS is moving towards his own belief system. In other words, that his particular brand of spirituality is more progressive or advanced and that RS is now only catching up.
This is your personal view of the world George. If you even went to the transformationDay site you would see it is unrelated to sant mat – or even enlightenment. Transformation Day is a one day intense seminar and it’s about seeing beyond the limitation that you have created which you think is how life really is. When you see beyond those limitation – a whole new world opens up – you realize you’ve been living in a box – but the box is not real – it is a construct.
It’s a bit like RSSB followers breaking free from the RSSB belief and realizing life is more than just what they hear in satsang.
Transformation Day is not a path like RSSB – it is not an alternative to it – I am not recruiting anyone.
Geroge wrote:
If ppl are interested in that sort of thing, thats there business, but thats exactly why i personally am very retiscent of spirituality since to me it just seems like a racket. \
That’s just your view of the world – and that creates your experience – which to you seems like reality. But it’s not – it’s just your version and you are creating it.
Geroge wrote:
Most of the gods, cosmologies and experiences are all so different, they cant all be right, so the most logical assumption is that none of them are. And when money is involved it really is the icing on mans cake.
George – that’s not even logic. You are saying that if most roads don’t lead to Rome – it means that no roads lead to Rome. Not sure where you get that logic from.
And you told you life was logical? Logic is not the answer to everything – especially your type of logic.
Zen for example is all about dropping the logic – because logic is a barrier.
Zen story:
student: What is the mind?
Master: Mind is the Buddha
Student: Thank you sir, Now I see.
Master: Now that you see – I say there is NO MIND and NO BUDDHA
Student: Then why did you say that Mind is the Buddha
Master: I has to stop the baby crying

I find it interesting how poeple feel insulted by Tao – and then tell him that he is insulting. When the truth is that the person experiences ‘INSULT’ because they are not used to anyone talking (or writing) in this manner.
In fact – he is not ‘insulting’ or anything else – he just has a unique style of expression.
How YOU experience him – is YOUR own personal contribution. It’s what you bring to it. It comes from you.is
it
And you experience it – like it is REAL. That Tao is ACTUALLY insulting. As if that is HOW IT IS.
But it’s not – that is how you have CREATED it for yourself – and therefore it is what you experience.
Life consists of events that are all NEUTRAL in nature. Then you add the MEANING. Why – because as a human being – that is what you do – create meanings.
As soon as something happens – the question arises in the mind – what does this mean?
It actually means nothing – it’s just an event. But you make it mean something specific. And what you make it mean – is YOUR meaning. And your meaning creates YOUR perception.
However – you are UNAWARE of this – so you THINK and EXPERIENCE that the event ACTUALLY MEANS what you think it means.
So you blame and you think someone has insulted you – or they are rude – or they have no manners etc.
In fact – it’s all rubbish. I mean how would you experience someone who was eating some food at the dinner table with you and farting at the same time?
Would you not call him RUDE? When in fact – he’s just doing two natural things – at the same time.
It happened recently. My mum, brother, his wife, and I were all eating when this other person – who was eating with us – farted while eating. We all just laughed. Why was it funny?
Because we created the ‘funnny’ – you can create any meaning you choose.
The person who farted was my brother’s 15 months old son.
If he does that when he’s 15 years old – the same action is going to be labelled differently.
REALISING (not just hearing) that you are creating all the meanings in your life and your meanings are creating your experience – is a major shift in awareness.
It frees you from being a ROBOT.

Dear Sir Tao first of all i will not go and copy paste your words to others to prove you something. Bacically i don’t mind where you got your wisdom from, but for me, you got it. And how i explain my thoughts about this is another thing and for the thruth about yourself you have the last word and that need to be respected. My thaughts are not final and set and you are helping me to clear my picture about you. But it is my right to express that i like your harsh words less than other approach but maybe, maybe even your harsh words are colouring your point. You did not insult me and what you have with others is none of my business. I will still do my meditation but you have to understand that sometimes when someone like me likes someone like You and thus makes me that open, and sometimes it is hard to handle what the ‘Liked’ person is saying to the one who likes the ‘Liked’ person. PEACE and RESPECT

Well Osho,
I do happen to agree with you about taking insult.
tAo has talked (written) to me in a certain way and I replied to him not from a place of insult or blaming him, as I didn’t take it that way. To me it was really amusing. (That was the genuine meaning that I gave it) As I said somewhere, Charan once supposedly said words to the effect ‘no one can insult you. They only insult what they think is you. It is like a present, you can refuse to accept it’.
But because I replied back in a non defense way, tAo now thinks I am a joker and a troll.
I don’t take insult to that but I am interested in how tAo now believes that. Curious, just like you Osho when someone tries to ‘insult’ you, you come back with your meaning to it.
But you are only seeing one side of the story, or maybe not but have mentioned only one side. tAo may be writing from his own unique style but it does come across that he is, well let’s just say angry.
If we take ‘insult’ to that anger and react back I agree, nothing to do with tAo but our own beliefs or interpretations, or reasons why we make it so.
tAo’s side however, is the same thing. He also may read some comments and let’s say take ‘offence’ to what I (or anyone else) have written and make it mean ‘Marina is a troll’. I can make that mean what I want; I do like to know his reasons out of curiosity and I have my personal opinion of why he would see it that way – because he expected to get a different response and when I didn’t take it seriously he comes up with another meaning. But hey, we all do it to some extent. When you begin to take responsibility for ‘creating’ (yes Brian, creating) your own experiences, you are well on the way to, let’s just use another word than ‘enlightenment’ which can have so many weird connotations, let’s just say freedom!
Nothing is ever personal until we take it that way.
But you cannot fake it. If I happen to react it is because I am buying into that ‘belief’ or taking the meaning I gave it to be true. So yeah, where is the blame really?
Regarding my comment about the blog being no different than religious groups, that is what I was trying to say – the same dynamics are present on this blog also and to say they are not is in denial. You just have to look at any thread and see it for what it is. More of the same – which can be fun (or not) and a learning process (or not).
Reality is just reality until we put our meaning to it. All back to ourselves folks. Now isn’t that good news?
Regarding your comments about eating and farting, well I just LOL. :)))
The other day I was minding my grandson. I noticed myself saying to him when he passed me ‘Noah, have you a dirty bum? (He is still in nappies /diapers) His usual response is one of ‘ No,ganny mena, I clean bum’ and he runs and hides before I can get him.
I asked myself on many occasions why he does this as surely it would feel much better that carrying around a nappy full of ‘shit’.

It dawned on me that the way I had asked him could have been taken as an accusation. Sitting later outside, my husband, Noah and myself, my husband’s stomach let out a big growl that sounded like a fart. Noah turned to him and said ‘you dirty bum’. I then happened to have some wind, so I let of a whopper of a fart and Noah turned to me and said ‘ganny mena, you have dirty bum.’ I found myself saying to him ‘yes Noah, ganny mena dirty bum, I mentioned my husband has dirty bum and Noah has dirty bum.’

Well, you should have seen his little face. He was so delighted. He repeated what I had said and it felt like it was a party to him. “YES, WE ALL HAVE DIRTY BUMS!!!”

The next time he had a shitty nappy, he came over to me and said, ‘ganny mena, I have dirty bum.’

The moral of the story being……….well I’ll leave it up to your good selves to the take the meaning form it. :))
Marina 😉

Hi Tara,
I think we are basically saying the same thing regarding Osho’s videos on SM.
I do agree Osho is making things clear as to how the teachings seem to be changing. And yes, I do also feel Osho has nothing to gain from this. My choice of words may or may not have been the best.
I do see, however that it is up to each an every person to enquire for themselves what that means for them – honestly and sincerely. Whatever they want to do after that, hey, it’s up to them. Tara, we all believe what we want to believe at the end of the day. Just a human thing. We all have different needs. If I for instance totally left RS, I wouldn’t personally have anything bad to say about it as it has helped me when I was in a very dark hole. Who knows which way I’ll go in the future?
I also agree that I have enjoyed a relaxed approach to the path – but believe me, I had my weird concepts about it too :)))I could easily blush just thinking!
As to the confusion thing, which I am now going to call it ‘POSSIBILITIES’ I probably always heard that BJ was just a guide, though saying that it was a bit of a shock when he said about Master meeting us after death is a concept (not in those words). But it makes sense to me (well a little) that it propably is our own projection of our mind and eventualy we will realise ‘I Am That’ sort of thing.(Ramana had started at that stage to have an effect on me).But who really knows? But I still hold to, ‘where there is a need, there will be a service’ for those who need it until they don’t.
One thing is for sure Tara, whether I am right or wrong, I am gonna be relaxed and chilled out and enjoy whatever the journey brings…..(till I don’t:)
I also hear what ‘older’ satsangis(meaning ones who have being involved in RS a long time) or those who have close up and personal contact with the higher up’s, are trying to say. But it is difficult for me to really comment as I have no experience there. Oh yeah, you know me, I could come up with a few idea’s, but idea’s are all they would be. And yes, I have given a few of my ‘ideas’ on the blog…I know, but only ‘ideas’.
Bottom line, I am beginning to realise everyone of us have had different experiences, are coming from different conditioning, have their own personal encounters and honestly I am ok with whatever people want it to mean for them.
I am not too interested in getting people to wake up, I am too busy seeing if I am awake myself – or maybe you could call it selfish, or smart, or wise 🙂
Marina

Osho
“Transformation Day is … about seeing beyond the limitation that you have created which you think is how life really is. When you see beyond those limitation – a whole new world opens up – you realize you’ve been living in a box – but the box is not real – it is a construct.”
says who? who says i’ve been living in a box? who says my view, as opposed to your view or transformation days’, is more limited? How do you know the box is just a construct?
In short, where is the evidence or proof? All I see is sourceless unsupported conjecture and rhetoric.
“George – that’s not even logic. You are saying that if most roads don’t lead to Rome – it means that no roads lead to Rome.”
What i was saying is that there is absolutely no evidence that “Rome” even exists. In the absence of any evidence, all we have to go on are subjective claims. In the absence of any evidence, it is logical to conclude that the existence of “Rome” is more likely if such subjective claims were in agreement. Instead, not only do the roads point in different directions, but Rome itself is described differently. Thus, the logical conclusion must be that a claim for the existence of Rome, and a valid road leading to it, is even less likely due to the sheer contradictory nature of these subjective unsupported claims.
On the issue of logic itself, I agree that it may be limited (you have the zen masters, i prefer Godel), but a quite seperate issue from logic, is empericism (science or evidence-based reason). Where is the evidence for “Rome” or the road leading to it, or any means by which we can decide whether one of the roads is more valid than another?
On the issue of self-help, robotics, enlightenment and/or awareness; how do you know your particular worldview (or perception of reality) is either true or beneficial? How do you know that your view of reality is not distorted by your mind, like all the other limited views? How do you know that spreading your worldview is not ROBOTISING ppl by infecting them with your potentially faulty programming? Are you happy to charge fees and claim knowledge for something totally unsupported, which might potentially cause more harm than good?
Where is the evidence?

“Transformation Day is … about seeing beyond the limitation that you have created which you think is how life really is. When you see beyond those limitation – a whole new world opens up – you realize you’ve been living in a box – but the box is not real – it is a construct.”
GEORGE SAYS:
says who? who says i’ve been living in a box? who says my view, as opposed to your view or transformation days’, is more limited? How do you know the box is just a construct?
I am saying that ALL VIEWS are limited. Mine – yours – everyones. If it is a view – it is limited. However – everyone experiences that HIS VIEW is the TRUTH. You think that YOUR OPINION and VIEWPOINT is the truth or shall we say VALID – or we could say IMPORTANT. You think you have a VALID point to make – and that what you are saying is CORRECT.
However – it isn’t TRUTH, VALID, CORRECT or even IMPORTANT. It is just YOUR VIEWPOINT. It is just your opinion – the way you see the world.
YOUR VIEWPOINT is NO MORE valid, correct, true or important – THAN MINE.
You are talking about VIEWPOINTS, OPINIONS, BELIEFS.
In Transformation Day I make it clear from the outset that I don’t care what your opinions, ideas or viewpoints are,
and I don’t want you to care about what MINE are either.
Why? because I don’t have a teaching to impart during Transformation Day. It is an EXPERIENCE. Your or anyone else’s opinions about IT don’t matter in the slightest. Opinions ARE the limitation and the BOX that I am referring to.
You live your life through a VIEWPOINT – and that view taints your experience of life. That is the BOX I am talking about.
And then you say – What box? YOUR OPINION is the box.
Transformation Day is about YOU DISCOVERING for yourself. It’s not about some theory I impart to people.
So – there are no VIEWPOINTS that are any more important than others – including mine.
GEORGE SAYS:
On the issue of self-help, robotics, enlightenment and/or awareness; how do you know your particular worldview (or perception of reality) is either true or beneficial? How do you know that your view of reality is not distorted by your mind, like all the other limited views? How do you know that spreading your worldview is not ROBOTISING ppl by infecting them with your potentially faulty programming?
I am not giving you a worldview. ALL VIEWS of reality are distorted by the mind. That is what the mind does.
It creates a MAP OF REALITY (A concept) and then proceeds to assume that the MAP = REALITY.
I am not programming anyone. I get them to see that they are already programmed and that the program is running their life.
Its patently obvious in this blog – when some R.S. programmed robot appears and gets offended – his deep programming kicks off – and he attacks – because he feels that his view IS THE TRUTH. He really believes that G S Dhillon REALLY is the big guy incarnated into a human form.
Transformation Day is not some new religion – or some new age philosophy. So I have no new beliefs to give anyone.

Because I think Gurinder himself does not see himself as a bad guy (who does?) my interpretation of the SM3.0 is that he tries to bring the Satsangi’s back on their feet by realizing that they will not mysteriously go to sach kant or whatever if they are just initiated. I think he wants to make it clear that there are logical consequences to our actions. If we meditate in exactly the right way as described in the veda’s than we might experience what is described there. But in the past during 1.0 Satsangi’s believed that the guru would do their meditation and such bs. It was the result of good teaching becoming a religion. I think Gurinder is in fact trying to release his Satsangi’s and I hope he will end with saying that he simple doesn’t know just like us but that he believes in a tradition just like his preceding guru’s. It is up to us to try the tradition.

Hi OSHO,
Your videos are wonderful and accurate.
I believe Tao once said he was a crusty old
hippy, if I am not mistaken.
Now if a person knows Tao is crusty and old
ones reads his posts in a different light.
Crusty people are supposed to be crusty.
Now the reader does not take it personally,
but neutral. Understanding this is his nature.
Tao is unusual because he talks about moving
beyond the jnani state.
FEELING the Presence.
So, it seems Tao and I are in the same camp,
although our personalities are different.
People should ask Tao more about the Presence.
Therefore moving outside the box.
Experience is indeed the result of the mind.
But, the Presence is beyond experience.
The Presence is FELT now.
In whatever condition the person is in. People can
do little to nothing to help themselves.
That being known, only the Presence can solve the riddle.

Mike,
What would be an example of a “feeling” of the Presence?
What would be an example of a riddle, you mentioned? I’m not into riddles.
Is the Presence, now, a non-experienced FELT? Or, it is FELT without having any kind of experience?
I can resonate with a non-conceptual type of experiencing of a presence of now.

Mike,
you and i have pretty similar views, but different syles of expressing our views. but i rather like your style. but we know each other since way back when we both lived under that rainbow bridge. man, those were the dayz. *grin*
one small thing though… i’m definitely not any “crusty old hippy”. i’m a bad-ass old biker dude. i haven’t been a hipster since way back when tucson and i were trippin and surfin the pacific coast down in SoCal. and i may be a bit older than these other dipshits, but i sure as hell ain’t crusty. *frown*

Osho,
thanx for explaining to all the folks who are insulted, that i am not actually insulting them, but rather that they are choosing to feel insulted. i don’t need to insult them, as they themselves are doing a fine job of feeling insulted anyway. its really funny how some people feel insulted, even though there are no actual insults present in my comments.
Mungos,
you are alright with me dude, so don’t take it all so seriously. i don’t dislike you. and i’m happy for you if you feel positive towards me. i don’t see any problem. you simply had a couple of mistaken assumptions about me, that i tried to correct. nothing personal against you.
Marina,
I told you what i think. i felt you were being a bit trollish and narcissistic. that was my observation. you were defending GSD and RS, but then disregarding core aspects of the RS doctrine. thats trollish imo. thats playing both sides. thats disingenouous.
You say that you trust and believe GSD is a sant sat-guru, but also that he can change and alter sant mat, even though all of his predecessors said that sant mat has remained fundamentally the same and unchanged for thousands of years, and that it will never change… yet now its quite alright for GSD to change it. thats blatant hypocrisy.
And then you turn around and say that you like to pick and choose what aspects of santmat and RS you will accept and which you will reject. thats not the teaching and doctrine of sant mat. not at all. according to sant mat, nothing ever needs to be changed, and the practice of sant mat is not a matter of personal opinions or whims.
As Tara has rightly pointed out, GSD is simply acting and treating RS and sant mat like a business. he is obviously adapting it and changing it and making it more loose and liberal in order to appeal to a better and broader market. but as far as being a supposed true sant mat guru, he is clearly a fraud. and so your whimsical mentality and attitude towards the traditional sant mat, is nothing more than a product and a result of GSD’s bogus ‘modernization’ of sant mat. again, according one of the core tenets of sant mat, the teaching and doctrine of sant mat has remained unaltered since time immemorial, and there is nothing in it that needs to be changed. all of GSD’s predecessors have stood on this foundation. but now you (and GSD) say that you can chage it and make up your own version of sant mat. i say you are both clowns.
And so thats what i find trollish and jokerish about you Marina. the utter hypocrisy of you claiming to be an RS satsangi, and yet you’re not adhering to the RS doctrine. you say that you take only the parts you like and leave the rest. you are a fake disciple of a fraudulent master.
Just like the old parable of Jesus, about the blind leading the blind… they both fall into the ditch.
GSD has no authority to change the doctrine of sant mat. none whatsoever. he claims to be a humble disciple of his master, Charan. but if thats true, then he would never attempt to change or or alter or ‘update’ or ‘improve’ the sant mat doctrine. in doing so, he has disregarded one of the fundamental principles that RS and his own master have stood upon. just because he is now the new master of RS, that does not give him the authority or ability to change the timeless doctrine and foundation upon which RS rests.

Hey, this is not fair!
You’se all know each other. Ye are all going to stick up for each other. I am at an unfair advantage here.
All I got to go on is your ‘words’!!
Marina 😉

Sant mat is based on GURU BHAKTI.
A few verses from Sar Bachan ( written by Rai Saligram but official attributed to Swami Ji)
Gur ko Manukh mat jaan – yeh hai sat purush ki jaan
Do not consider the Guru to be a man – he is the darling of Sat Purush
(not sure if this is from sar bachan – but I think it might be)
Gur ko manukh jaanti – teh nar kahiyee aandh
Those who consider the Guru to be a man – call these people blind.
Gur bhakt na jin ko payari – then jeeti baaji haaree
Those who do not love GURU BHAKTI – They have lost when they had virtually won.
(meaning that they had the human birth and met the guru – but lost the opportunity)
Sant mat firmly puts the guru on a very high pedestal. Once Gurinder de-values the guru – it is no longer the same sant mat.
Zen for example does not put the zen master on a pedestal. In fact the zen master has a very real and down to earth relationship with his disciple. He wants no respect or reverence. He is interested only in doing whatever it takes to awaken the disciple.
Gurinder is combining these two approaches – but they cannot be combined because they are opposites. Zen does not say that meditation is the way – rather it says there is no way because there is no path – and no destination.
Gurinder teaches people to meditate – and at the same time tells them not to be concerned about the results. This is clearly impossible for his sangat to do. They need a reason for everything. Why meditate? The answer in sant mat 1.0 used to be: in order for the soul to leave the body and get to sach khand. The answer in 2.0 / 3.0 is : because your master told you to – and that is enough.
But look a little deeper: Why is the disciple obeying the master? Because he WANTS something – do he has a reason. He has a desire: he wants to get somewhere. The very act of meditating means that the disciple is seeking – and therefore cannot realize the truth because as long as seeking is going on – you cannot realize the truth.

Hey tAo,
Ok, I hear what you’re saying and I could add that it’s a fair point from your side.
Can I give you a wee example.
I was again in the company of my grandson today and when my daughter came to pick him up he was sleeping like a lil angel that he is. She asked if he was good and without thinking I told her yeah of course he was. When she had gone, my darling husband brought to my attention, what my daughter had asked, ‘was he good?’ We then had a discussion on what good meant. He pointed out that asking if a 2 year old was good, was the same thing as asking if the moon or the chair was good. The moon being just as it is, a moon and the chair being well, just a chair. Same with any 2 year old – just being a 2 year old which includes exactly how they are be it happy, sad, crying, throwing tantrums etc.
Ok, so my point?
Marina is being exactly what Marina is, tAo being exactly as tAo is, BJ being exactly as BJ is and so on with us all.
How can we say anything shouldn’t be as it is? We may not like it, we may not want anything to do with it, but can we just not accept it is as it is until it’s not?
Are we then not at odds with reality and what actually is happening (or not) versus how we see it, or how we see it should be? Now tAo, I am not trying to be smart here. To me, arguing with reality is a fools game.
We can each of us under the circumstances we find ourselves in do as we wish or what we think best, but to say someone else should do or not do something…………well that sounds a bit controlling or off to me.
I am not defending BJ, I am saying what is true for me at this moment, how I see it. For instance you say I am defending BJ/RS but then disregarding core aspects of the RS doctrine.
How can that be the case if BJ (as a lot of people are saying), is now changing these core aspects? As the present guru, is one not ‘supposed’ to listen to what he says? So from my perspective that statement doesn’t add up that I am playing both sides.
I am not saying you or anyone else is wrong. Again, we all have our own experiences to go on, so what’s the big deal if we all have different ones – seriously? Who is perfect anyway? All I can go is from where I am at.
And hey tAo, what is wrong with clowns? I like clowns. They make ME laugh. :))
Marina 😉

Hi Tao and Roger,
Whoops, sorry Tao, your not a crusty old hippy,
your a “bad-ass old biker dude”. My mistake (grin)
Yes, we are on the exact same page. But how do we
explain the Presence to anyone else ?
Hi Roger,
I believe kundalini yoga is a big trap. Looking
for experiences is a big trap. Thinking a kundalini
master can help you is a big trap.(surat shabda yoga)
As Ramana Maharshi stated, there is only one reality.
You are either ‘there’, or not. It is very unfortunate
he used the word Self for the Presence. This may be
a transliteration. Ramana stated the Presence is
here now and can be had directly now. No steps,
or stages to reality. Go direct.
But, how is this possible ? If it’s here now, why don’t
we know about it, or FEEL it ?
The reason why, is the Presence will only let itself
be felt by honest people. They can be bad people,
but they must have a good heart. No matter how messed
up a person is, if they have a good heart, they can
FEEL the Presence right now.
The true seeker finds their way to a place on top
of their head. They FEEL Something there. They
instintively realize it is the Presence.
They know the Presence is a positive Force.
They know they can do nothing in life and
inwardly ask the Presence to help them.
By FEELING the Presence on the top of their head,
they know they have made direct contact here
and now.
They know the Presence has to do everything.
So, no religion, or code of ethics. No church.
They know that just by FEELING the Presence,
that the Presence will handle everything.
The presence actually FEELS good. So, the person
FEELs the Presence throughout the day.
After a few weeks, part of their attention
is on the top of the head, while all the other
attention is in the world.
They know the Presence will only let happen
to them what must happen. They know they are
protected, until the day they must die.
They don’t try to make any changes in their life.
If the Presence wants, it will change the person
without the person even knowing he has changed.
So, the person does not fight with life.
No struggle, no battle.
The journey ends at the exact moment a person
FEELS the presence on top of the head.
They are now in Reality. Just that fast.

Marina wrote:
He pointed out that asking if a 2 year old was good, was the same thing as asking if the moon or the chair was good. The moon being just as it is, a moon and the chair being well, just a chair. Same with any 2 year old – just being a 2 year old which includes exactly how they are be it happy, sad, crying, throwing tantrums etc.
Ok, so my point?
Marina is being exactly what Marina is, tAo being exactly as tAo is, BJ being exactly as BJ is and so on with us all.
How can we say anything shouldn’t be as it is? We may not like it, we may not want anything to do with it, but can we just not accept it is as it is until it’s not?
Are we then not at odds with reality and what actually is happening (or not) versus how we see it, or how we see it should be? Now tAo, I am not trying to be smart here. To me, arguing with reality is a fools game.
We can each of us under the circumstances we find ourselves in do as we wish or what we think best, but to say someone else should do or not do something…………well that sounds a bit controlling or off to me.
MY REPLY:
Life IS exactly what life is. What IS, simply IS. What ISN’T, simply ISN’T.
This is dealing with LIFE AS IT IS. Everything is exactly as it IS.
GOOD or BAD are simply what you are bringing to it. They are your personal JUDGEMENTS. The good or bad is not part of reality – it is your version of reality – tainted with your personal view of how life, things, people SHOULD BE.
A two year old child is perfectly living his life. He or she doesn’t give a shit about what is convenient to you or anyone else. He is too busy considering himself and his very full and busy life.
He has not yet acquired any beliefs about life. “nothing is good or bad – but thinking makes it so” ( from Hamlet). The two year old doesn’t think as you think. Therefore he doesn’t live in the same world. In his world – there is no RIGHT or WRONG and therefore nothing is GOOD or BAD.
So he might do something that is inconvenient to you – which you might consider bad. But in reality – you are adding the value BAD.
An example. My 20 month young nephew is always playing about with everything. So he plays with my desktop – but it is switched off – so it’s okay – or so I think. Anyway – the next day – when I switch on my desktop to see what churchless comment has been posted – so I can add my twopence worth to the comments – the desktop goes BANG. Frightens the shit out of everyone including me.
On taking a closer look – the little Buddha had put his little Buddha fingers in the hidden voltage selection switch and moved it over. So it was now set to 120V instead of 240V. So the power supply blew.
So – is he naughty? Is he bad? Or is he just having fun? He is just playing around. Good or bad does not exist – yet.
Check out my article about good/bad and the adam and eve story: http://tinyurl.com/whatisgood
The little Buddha is in a state of INNOCENCE by default – because guilt does not exist. So when I say ‘innocence’ I don’t mean the opposite of guilt.
I mean there is no possibility of good or bad or innocent or guilty. This is the same as the state of enlightenment. Enlightenment is a return to your natural state of innocence – where you realize that YOU CREATED the whole right/wrong and good/bad values. So they just drop off and – you are innocent.
Then life is as life is.
In the japji it states – everything happens in hukam (His Will) and nothing is outside his will and if you realize this – your ego will disappear.
Of course there is no HIM as such – but when you recognize that life is happening exactly as it is – then you flow with life.
Part of this flowing is that all emotions and feeling are perfect – including sadness, anger, etc. What this means is that no emotion is WRONG because nothing is wrong.
Krishna is explaining things to Arjuna on the battlefield and he says to him – you’ll never be able to figure it out – you are confused – and he offers a solution – leave all the thinking and surrender to me.
Surrender means let go and let it be.
So everything is perfect – including the fact that Gurinder is upgrading sant mat. Including EVIL BUSTER coming on here and telling us how evil we are. Including what Tao says and what Marina says.
A zen story to finish off.
Three people go to a zen judge. Person one states his case. Judge says – You are Right!
Person two states HIS case – and judge says – you too are Right!
Person 3 says – they can’t BOTH be right! Judge reflects and then says – You are Right!
If that doesn’t fry your brain – nothing will.

Another thing that came to awareness yesterday was this blog and how I have been interacting with it – sometimes.
(Great take on things Osho)
I left work just over 2 months ago now and I am loving it.
I have seen however ‘part’ of me was still at ‘work’ in some way.

How? I have seen the dynamics of my beliefs here on the blog the same way they had been at work when I had started there 3 years ago. Some people on this blog I believed, reminded me of my boss, always telling me what to do. Others were treating me ‘badly’. Others thought I was clowning around. Others got on my nerves telling me what to do. On and on it went, oh at times it felt like a struggle. It felt like a battle field for sure. Arjuna I am with you there. ‘I’m right, they are wrong or vice versa, or confusion’. Hey, hey, hey, all my own beliefs!

Yep, believing in right and wrong, good and bad, judgements, assumptions. Oh boy, did I struggle at work sometimes ). Now all these things at work were very subtle; it wasn’t as if all hell was breaking loose. I just looked at my beliefs and fears….. I didn’t try to change anything or anyone, just noticed. Eventually I saw what I was doing and in the process life at work became very, very pleasant. No longer was there fear of people, trying to control, trying to change people or things. I actually started to have fun and allowed others to have fun or not. Far less beliefs that things should be the way I believed them to be. So I did think to myself, I have learned all I can about myself here.

I sent my boss (one of them, it was a family run business) an email saying goodbye and thank you, as he was away the day I was leaving. Part of his reply back was …….”who am I going to give out to now? And better still, who is going to answer me back!” lol

I had ‘answered’ him back on many occasions, not fighting with him but also no longer fearing him in any way, though always with respect that I would give to myself. If something did not feel right, I would ask why he wanted me to do ‘it’ that it didn’t make sense to me. If he explained his purpose and it felt right, it was done. If it didn’t he would end up saying something like ‘don’t worry about it, I’ll get back to you.’ No longer had I the belief ‘do as you are told unquestionably’ out of fear or from my store of beliefs.

Wow, I found myself doing the same thing here on the blog! Sometimes taking things back to my referential point – me, and my beliefs!

I had thought I had dealt with these beliefs, but it turned out I hadn’t seen them apply to the whole only to one part that of work. lol

One thing I am looking at is when I hear that someone had told my grandson to sit on the “bold” step or punish him by putting him outside the door for making a ‘mess’ by emptying his breakfast on to the table after he decided that he had enough of eating them and choose instead to play in the puddle of milk he had created on the table, with the swimming cherrios all being moved about to his great satisfaction and amusement and they cannot see the great adventure the way he sees it.

I must confess I do want to change them and tell them to leave him fucking alone and stop conditioning him to this fucking ‘right or wrong’ according to our standards. I am not sure on this point because there is some belief there that they ‘shouldn’t’ do that.!?!? Why does he have to be told (brainwashed) into being bold? Even if he was told the real reasons, ‘I don’t want you to spill your breakfast all over the table because I see it as a mess and I don’t want to clean it up’. Now to me that, is taking responsibility.

I am not saying let him do what he wants. But to bring it back to ourselves and ‘own our own mess). If he is at something I would rather not have him play with, I move it. I don’t see him ‘wrong’ if it happened to be within his reach.

If he hits me, which he can 🙂 I don’t tell him he is bold, I just say ‘please don’t hit gany mena, that is sore or that hurt. Or I may say, ‘I don’t want you to hit me’. He usually hears what I have said and doesn’t seem to want to hit any more. But to punish him for being him – how could I? Impossible!!

Ah there is a point here. Osho said in his comment:

” Krishna is explaining things to Arjuna on the battlefield and he says to him – you’ll never be able to figure it out – you are confused – and he offers a solution – leave all the thinking and surrender to me.
Surrender means let go and let it be.

This can apply to RS/BJ in some way for me. I was and still can be confused. I meet someone who offers a solution – leave all the thinking and surrender to me, surrendering meaning let go and let it be. Things change, beliefs change. No wonder there is so much seemingly ‘discrepancy’.

Yes we can all take our own meaning out of even that. For instance we can take it literally.

Again it reminds me of the ‘ghost’ story in Ramana. Some of us hold onto our fathers hand (which can mean anything from BJ to our beliefs) feeling that we are being protected from the ghost. Once we don’t ‘believe’ in this ghost (self, assumptions, beliefs, identities) anymore we can let go or some may get angry and blame our father for misleading us. But it is only our selves(our own beliefs) which has mislead.

Osho quoted Hamlet:
”Nothing is either good or bad thinking makes it so.”

I would see it as “Nothing is either good or bad but believing makes it so.”
For me there is nothing wrong with thinking. It happens all the time. But when I start believeing what I am thinking ……that is when the ‘problem’ ‘conditioning’ programming’
‘Adam & Eve’ thing starts………

For me ‘rules’ are just guidelines to help when one is confused and to keep one from going completely insane until one NO longer BELIEVES in INSANE.
Alas, I ‘believe’ I may have gone on too long so I will stop.
Marina 🙂

There is a part of the story from Osho that is especially interesting. A child can not do wrong because his intellect is not developed yet. That is why children are generally excused for the crimes they accidentally or experimentally do. However the child does not excuse himself when daddy gets angry. His survival mechanism demands that his daddy remains his good god and good gods don’t get angry our beat their children because they don’t see things in the right perspective, so the child concludes that there is something wrong with himself when daddy is making a violent mistake towards the child not recognizing its innocence. The father in fact is projecting his own developed consciousness and guild feelings on the child when he reacts in anger. Very good Osho did not get angry at his child for the fried battery on his notebook! Wish we all had daddy’s like that.
Now the child concludes he is wrong but he does not know why yet…How will this end? Just fill in your stories. What thoughts became evil, what is it about yourself that you were going to hate? Most likely the development of sexuality is the victim and is from then on the bad feeling because it was always a difficult subject anyway. Great are the parents that talk to the child openly about those feelings that are perfectly natural and come with life and educate their children that there is a right way to express them in an intimate relation and that they can enhance that relation into a dance of forgetting your identity and finding it back.
To all the children out there. There is nothing wrong with you!
(shall I really post this one aaah what the…)

Yo, yo! TAO, TARA, MARINA, MIKE, BRIAN, OSHO, NIETZsCHE and anybody else i am again going off line now due to the hard practice i will now take with my music instrument so it is been a pleasure to talk with you and if anybody wants to stay in contact with me, here is the mail: mrtncnk1@gmail.com
I wish you all peace and full happy life.
Your brother!

But based on what evidence do you conclude that everyone’s views are limited or boxed?
Moreover, such a conclusion is itself a viewpoint and an opinion – and therefore equally valid or invalid.
In any event, I don’t buy into this postmodern nonsense that every viewpoint is equally correct, it is not. A person may be of the view that the earth is flat, but such a view is not as correct as a person who has the view that the earth is roughly spherical. There are certain views which are a more accurate desription of reality than others, and the way that we ascertain this is by evidence.
As for transformation, unless you are remaining completing silent and not imparting any information – you most certainly are imparting a worldview, one that you happen to subscribe to – however much you might want to wrap it up in meaningless terms like ‘experience’.
Afterall if there were no ‘teaching’ going on you and transformation day would not be needed, and neither would your charges.

non-duality, oneness or cosmic consciousness – these are all worldviews.
If you provide some of your material for transformation day, Im pretty sure i could pick out a worldview fairly quickly and immediately recognise some baseless inherent assumptions contained therein.

Hi George,
It’s a funny thing when I read your posts.
I think I have wrote them at first, until
I realise you wrote them. We are thinking
exactly the same thing. It’s uncanny.
Are you my twin double in a parallel
universe ?
You said, “non-duality, oneness or cosmic consciousness – these are all worldviews.
…….recognise some baseless inherent assumptions contained therein.”
The idea of surrender means we give up
all beliefs and move from the heart.
The Heart has no philosophy, religion,
or code of ethics. The Heart sees the pain
beliefs have caused in this world. The
Heart sees the seperation beliefs cause
amoungst people.
The Heart cuts the Gordian knot of the
self.

Hi Nietzsche, you wrote:
“However the child does not excuse himself when daddy gets angry. His survival mechanism demands that his daddy remains his good god and good gods don’t get angry our beat their children because they don’t see things in the right perspective, so the child concludes that there is something wrong with himself when daddy is making a violent mistake towards the child not recognizing its innocence. The father in fact is projecting his own developed consciousness and guild feelings on the child when he reacts in anger………..Now the child concludes he is wrong but he does not know why yet…How will this end?
How will this end? Well if ‘good god daddy’ took responsibility for his anger and told the child ‘daddy is angry, very angry because daddy wants things to be different. Nothing to do with you child. Daddy loves you…..’
Maybe then child will see daddy as just daddy and maybe not come up with any ‘bad’ conclusions about himself. But it will learn child to take responsibilities for his own feelings (he sees his father doing it, right) instead of ‘blaming ‘ others out there and he won’t take on ‘others’ stuff as his own.
Marina 🙂

Thinking back on this trait and others on the Church of the churchless I realize how wrong it is to tell people not to use their mind. I would like a discussion on that vow. Did I misunderstand it? Did Gurinder and all the former guru’s not tell people that the mind is kall and that kall has to shut up? Did he perhaps mean that only during meditation the mind had to shut up?
When you build a company and everything runs like a human when he reaches the age of lets say 21. Can we say after that now we can stop the management department and we are going to continue production only? Can we stop a 21 years old in further development of the mind, in the unravelling of the emotional knots from childhood? Can we just say kall has to shut up now we are only going to use our hands from now on?
It seems so mean and stupid to me to teach people that they should stop thinking. The results are clear that people do not develop any more like a company not introducing new products anymore, not searching for new markets. That company will go bankrupt just like the person. Hope I misunderstood the teachings and I hope this misunderstanding only affected me. Even in the Indian society there must be a need for wise or smart people telling the younger people how to develop, how to deal with life. How can a society of zombies maintain itself?
I can hear the satsangi next door saying, it is all the ego why are you trying to think for yourself. Can not the master think for you. You should submit yourself to the master and he will piss for you, he will eat for you and he will think for you.
So I vented some of the satsangi shit again I hope 😉

Mike W.
Thanks for your reply, above. As usual, it was very good and informative. A blogging informative. All Good.
tAo,
“bad-ass old biker dude”
–tAo, you are a bad-ass yacht dude too!!!
or, are the yacht days gone?

Tara, are you drunk, a bit intoxicated???:)))
My plans include going to India next December – if it happens.
Does that include me? Or am I branded eh, untouchable…..
Marina :0

I blame my daddy for making me blame others! If only he would have been more insightful like Marina than I would have been more tolerant of stupid blind daddy’s but then there would be no stupid daddy’s to blame. Seems like the stupid daddy’s are the reason we are all blaming each other. Damn I’m in a loop here. Marina how can I stop blaming my hypothetic daddy if he is stupid teaching me to blame? Especially when I’m in the hypothetic age of lets say 10?
As for India. Incoming!!!!

Nietzsche,
I hear you! Unfortunetely I cannot help you out with that question as that was not a big thing for me. Oh yes, I seen my mind as bad – because I had bad thoughts. So I was always telling my mind to ‘shut the fuck up’
But honestly, I can recall BJ saying one time that we blame this poor chap kal for everything……or something like that. So I always er ‘blamed’ myself. Just a habit of mine – which I am looking at. Thoughts are only thoughts Nietz until we believe them. That’s all.
Marina x

Nietzsche,
Just a wee question, what was your experience like with your parents?
I know it is personal and you may not want to go there, so feel free to answer or not or tell me to mind my own beeswax.
Marina

Hi Marina,
The solution for me is really simple. I conclude mistakes are made. I try to let go of habits like blaming myself. I don’t really blame others. It would be projection of my own guild feelings if I needed to blame others. But that is only one part of the story, the blaming. The second part is the building. I try to develop the things that my environment never let me develop. It is a kind of research and development and I do my own management too 😉 Might seem pathetic now but in time it is the only way to get out. Doing nothing or stopping the thinking is certainly not working.
I suddenly think of a song from Bjork with the lines ‘I play death’, ‘It is sometimes just like sleeping’, ‘I curl up inside’.
Perhaps we’re no zombies, we’re just playing death..
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bjork/playdead.html

My parents?
Just like RSSB. Here eat this delicious cookie, it will only poison you because we love you. We love you so much that we have to cut you in little pieces. To get our love you have to stop eating eggs. We only hurt you to stop your evil ego from taking over. We humble you because we care for you. That sort of parents 😉 ;(

Mike
Perhaps it means great minds think alike, but if you agreeing with me, its more likely that fools seldom differ, no offense.
I must say tho I am not convinced that the heart or intuition (as somehow being above or unaffected by mind or the intellect) is the best, or even a valid, instrument for assessing the validity of reality.
Critical thought seems the best we can do if we accept that it is actually impossible to percieve without the individual mind (with its inherent bias’ whether recognised or not). Critical thought allows the view of differnt minds to be compared openly and weighed up against the evidence.
Im not sure I really believe in perception without mind, in pure awareness or in intuition – how could this be? What we describe as intuition mind simply be another deeper manifestation of our psycholigies which is shaped depending on our particular life experiences, nature and disposition.
So when ppl say they are able to perceive things without the mind, (i.e. with the heart), I think their mind is just fooling them into believe that they have escaped their mind. I dont think we can escape, still or circumvent our mind, only perhaps some of the higher cognitive processes, which is precisely why critical thought and objective evidence is so important so that we can test and weigh up different viewpoints against one another and challenge our own.

For those who wish to speculate, and to interpret in their own way about what is the actual meaning of what Osho was referring to regarding Krishna advising Arjuna to “surrender”:
Osho was referring to a particular chapter and verse in Bhagavad-gita where Sri Krishna advises Arjuna to simply abandon all varietes of religion, and surrender unto Lord Sri Krishna. It is from Bhagavad-gita, chapter 18, verse 66:
BHAGAVAD-GITA 18.66
sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekam śaranam vraja
ahaṁ tvām sarva-pāpebhyo
moksayisyāmi mā śucah
sarva-dharmān—all varieties of religion; parityajya—abandoning; mām—unto Me; ekam—only; śaranam—surrender; vraja—go; aham—I; tvām—you; sarva—all; pāpebhyah—from sinful reactions; moksayisyāmi—deliver; mā—not; śucah—worry.
TRANSLATION:
“Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.”
PURPORT:
Lord Krishna has described various kinds of knowledge, processes of religion, knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Paramatma or Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge of non-attachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. Krishna has described in so many ways different types of religion.
Now, in summarizing Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been presented and explained to him; that he should simply surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna. That surrender will save the living entitity from all kinds of sinful reactions, for Krishna personally promises to protect him.
In the eighth chapter of Bhagavad Gita it was said that only one who has become free from all sinful reactions can take to the worship of the supreme, Lord Krishna. Thus one may think that unless he is free from all sinful reactions he cannot take to the surrendering process. To such doubts it is here said that even if one is not free from all sinful reactions, simply by the process of surrendering to Sri Krishna, he is automatically freed. There is no need of any strenuous effort to free oneself from sinful reactions. One should simply and unhesitatingly accept Krishna as the supreme lord of all living entities. With faith and love, one should surrender unto Him.
According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Krishna consciousness, all his activities are in vain.
Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Kṛṣṇa will protect him from all difficulties. There is no need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Krishna will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should consider Krishna the only basis for his progress in life. As soon as one seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of material nature. There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Krishna will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reaction.
One should be attracted by the unparalleled beauty of Krishna. His name is Krishna because He is the supreme all-attractive. One who becomes attracted by the beautiful, all-powerful, omnipotent vision of Krishna is fortunate.
There are different kinds of transcendentalists – some of them are attached to the impersonal Brahman vision, some of them are attracted by the Supersoul feature, but one who is attracted to the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, above all, one who is attracted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Krishna himself, is the most perfect transcendentalist. In other words, devotional service to Krishna, in full consciousness, is the most confidential part of knowledge, and this is the essence of the entire Bhagavad-gītā.
Karma-yogīs, empiric philosophers, mystics, and devotees are all called transcendentalists, but one who is a pure devotee of Krishna is the best of all. The particular words used here, ma sucah, “Don’t fear, don’t hesitate, don’t worry,” are very significant. One may be perplexed as to how one can give up all kinds of religious forms and bewilderments, but such worry is unnecessary. Simply surrender directly unto Krishna.

Hey Nietzsche,
Very strong emotional song!
We can only do our own thing and what feels right for us. Yeah, we can listen to others ‘give’ advice but we always go by what we want ourselves anyway. Your solution sounds simple 🙂
Ah, they say we are all the same all one, though I marvel at the unique expressions of this ‘oneness’.
You reminded me of a song, yep, by Bjork that I use to listen to years back 😉 Brings back parachuting day memories…..
…..’til it’s over and then
it’s nice and quiet
but soon again
starts another big riot
you blow a fuse
zing boom
the devil cuts loose
zing boom
so what’s the use
wow bam
of falling in love
Marina

AActually there is no upgrade to SantMat 3.0 etc outside the mind of some individuals.
Thus what relatively exists, is a lot of thinking about an upgrade: which is in effect a self created cyber-discourse sustained by a handful of people, addicted to blogging, who talk about an upgrade.
Anw.
OshoRobbins disregards a few points in his talk. SM does not place Satlok as the ultimate level.
The ultimate is UN-NAMEABLE.
Sat lok, is the “ONE”. The undifferentiated ONE which leans against nothing. And off-course its a level of consciousness and not an astral disney land…
its not a place you go into and say hi! with a smile to people :)…
Off-course…I presume, when one is at this non-dual level of consciousness while in the material body,,,one then has to be in a society and deal with social people (with identities)… with whom he or she looks exactly alike phenotypically while inwardly (speaking) are tuned into completely different frequencies. Personality comes with the package btw… as long as you are in the theatre you need are ascribed (to ) a character. In this sense…then yes…you can be in Satlok and in Disney Land and in Manhattan and say hi with a smile to people who ask a lot of social questions. Off-course that is when someone is in Sat-lok…I cannot even comment (beyond this comment) about entities beyond it. Or Gurus who are beyond it while in matter. Really does matter matter for them?
What is beyond the One? There is nothing beyond the One. My mind cannot conceive of it. In fact Sat look is beyond the ONE that I can conceive. The mind fails there…before the truth… Milllions and millions of thoughts and IT cannot be reduced to thought. The mind cannot conceive it…. the mind fails and sees that it fails..
POEM:
If I say it is ONE….it is not so
If I say it is TWO…. its a blasphemy
IT IS WHAT IT IS says Kabir AFTER PROFOUND THOUGHT.
What a meditator holds as a hypothesis and a praxis which follows it, is that to BE IT (Since he or she cannot understand it or reduce it to thought), he or she has to travel towards the direction that the music comes from…the same directions that make fruits ripen (as tabriz wrote)….from the direction that flute is heard (as Rumi wrote). There is nothing more to understand beyond this.
I guess entities, ARE, their focus of attention.
Shit, piss, philosophize, make love and war, smile and cry, in the theatre of the social life….but a seeker should keep his or her attention towards this inner direction while engaged in all these. A flower has to bloom in order to taste the full floweriness… A human can, if she or he, is found by a Shabd Bee, bloom too.
There is no Sant Mat 3.0. There is Mind 3.0 yes. But no Sant Mat 3.0
BE Human

Tara,
Here’s an idea… how about all the Churchless folks doing a group trip to India for the Maha Kumbh Mela in 2013? Its going to be on the Ganges in Allahabad. Perhaps you could somehow make arrangements for Brian and any of the Church of the Churchless who want to come, to have our own tent at the Mela. Just like a real sect/cult/ashram.
We could all fly over to Delhi, and you could arrange to have a van pick us up at the airport and then take us to stay at a previously booked hotel somewhere right near to your home, for a day or two of irreverent churchless partying at your house, and then we drive on to Allahabad to the Kumbh Mela.
I heard its possible to arrange for a group tent at the Mela for a few hundred dollars. And Brian could have some cool Churchless tee-shirts made up, and you could supply the wine (if you don’t drink it all before we get there).
What do you think, how about it?
Who’s up for doing a Churchless contingent at the big Maha Kumbh Mela in 2013??
oh btw, EvilBuster most likely got busted for being too evil… and he will probably be hanging out over at the RSSB tent anyway.

Hi George,
That’s correct, it all comes through
the brain. The Heart means the selfless
state in action of the jnani. Compassion.
Nothing mystical.
Hi Tao,
I can see how someone could misinterpret your post.
Because if the Presence is there,
there is no need for surrender. The Presence
does not require a belief in its existance, like Christians have to do.
It is not the hypercharged emotional
state they sometimes frenzy themselves into.
The Presence makes itself known by action.
It proves itself out, just like a scientific
experiment.
The person has absolutely no doubt what has happenned.
So, there is no need for belief.
The Presence does not work from a placebo effect.
The antiquated symbologies of Krishna, are
of course stated to relay a deeper meaning.
Without symbology they could not be communicated.
So, the avearge person would look at what you just posted
and think it’s more of the
same stories we have already been informed of.
Ramana called it the Presence, the Self.
He said it opened one from top down without
the person generally being aware.
So, while the words Krishna and Self are used,
they cannot name the Nameless. The Nameless being formless.
All that can be said about it is… it is there.
No religion, or dogmas can be built around it.
Nisargadatta Maharaj called it THAT.

Social-Name (incorrectly) asserts:
“SM does not place Satlok as the ultimate level. The ultimate is UN-NAMEABLE.”
— No, satlok is merely a reference to the entirety of the so-called imperishable region, beyond time and the material universe. according to sant mat, satlok contains three subtle subdivisions… alakh, agam, and anami. but it is still all satlok. btw, have you experienced satlok ? if you haven’t, then you shouldn’t talk about things that you have no direct experience.
“Sat lok, is the “ONE”. The undifferentiated ONE which leans against nothing.”
— no, thats not what it is, or what it means. in vedanta and sanskrit, the teachings of the sanatana dharma, it literally means the realm or plane of eternal being/existence, the realm of the absolute. it doesn’t mean the “ONE”. its also not “a level of consciousness”.
“its not a place you go into and say hi! with a smile to people”
— how would you know? have you been there?
“I presume, when one is at this non-dual level of consciousness while in the material body,,,one then has to be in a society and deal with social people (with identities)”
— you mean… like you?
“while inwardly (speaking) are tuned into completely different frequencies.”
— hmmm, what uh freak-quency are you tuned into?
“Personality comes with the package”
— does it really?
“as long as you are in the theatre you need are ascribed (to ) a character.”
— is that where you are? what theatre are you in? and what character are you?
“you can be in Satlok and in Disney Land and in Manhattan and say hi with a smile to people who ask a lot of social questions.”
— well, i’ve been to all three of those places, and they are each very different from the others.
“Off-course that is when someone is in Sat-lok”
— how is satlok being off course.
“cannot even comment (beyond this comment) about entities beyond it. Or Gurus who are beyond it”
— then why are you commenting?
“What is beyond the One?”
— the Two.
“There is nothing beyond the One.”
— thats news to me. in my experience, there is a whole infinity beyond the one.
“My mind cannot conceive of it.”
— well gee, thats too bad. perhaps you should open up your mind a bit.
“Sat look is beyond the ONE that I can conceive.”
— that would be your conception.
“The mind fails there…before the truth”
— whose mind? what truth? the truth of what?
“Milllions and millions of thoughts and IT cannot be reduced to thought.”
— what are trying to reduce?
“The mind cannot conceive it…. the mind fails and sees that it fails.”
— thats not my experience. ime, the mind is it. there is no difference.
What a meditator holds as a hypothesis […] he or she has to travel towards the direction that the music comes from”
— and where is that?
“the same directions that make fruits ripen”
— that would be the earth and the sun.
“There is nothing more to understand beyond this.”
— i doubt that.
“a seeker should keep his or her attention towards this inner direction while engaged in all these.”
— are you a seeker? what are you seeking? and why are you seeking?
“if she or he, is found by a Shabd Bee’
— is that similar to a spelling bee?
“There is no Sant Mat 3.0.”
— well how about a sant mat version 2.987654321987654321987654321987654321987654321987654321 ?

There is a Formless Potential from which this dream springs.
Life is lived as this dream.
There is no differentiation except as interpreted by this body-mind locus which seves as a point of reference for this particular manifestation. But body-mind is not the Source, only a defined particle in/as It.
This self-defintion is brought about by objectifying the functioning of Source and calling it ‘me’.
In infancy, definition is yet to manifest. All is a homogenous field of vascillating light/sound. Nothing is named and thus has no objectivity. There is no this nor that.
Gradually, certain repeated patterns are identified and named, such as ‘mama’.
This process expands until a world is identified and organized.
This interpretation is solidified and becomes the life view. The world manifests and conforms to this life view depending on its strength.
It is possible for this life view and interpretation to change.
Some life views are rigid and impenetrable while others are maleable.
Nevertheless, all are merely interpretations, attempts to give structure and organization to an undefinable, ever-changing, unpredictable flux.
These attempts at interpretation and organization become problematic when they do not always conform to what is happening. Suffering and frustration set in.
There is no problem when no attempt is given to rigid interpretation, when flux is simply allowed to manifest and pass.
There is no problem when it is seen that what would control manifestation is just a phantom that has no roots and is being blown helplessly about like a tissue in a breeze.
The only problem is resistance to flux when it does not confirm to the chosen interpretation or life view.
It can be realized that there is no definition, no absolute conforming pattern to adhere to. There is just manifestation.
Just this.
Eventually, the body-mind ceases to function, either suddenly or gradually, as an identified locus in the current dream manifestation. Identified forms return to the homogenous field of light, a light that isn’t such except as Formless Potential, potent yet unmanifest.
A life was lived by no one except an idea.
But life remains infinitely manifesting in/as/from the unmanifest Formless Potential.

Reply to Tao:
Off-rourse, believing in blue people that look like Smurfs , and “letting go” to the Blue Lord of Smurfs (Papa-Smurf), for an “instant” release from the “contamination” of “material nature” is an another idolatric option for one’s monkey mind.

I was having this vision (not really) of the RSSB party versus the Churchless playing football. The RSSB were mostly sitting in meditation but some wandered around like mindless zombies. Gurinder was standing in the goal and tried to control the zombies by pointing at the ONE bal. On the other hand the Churchless where deep thinking and looking at the sky, they where studying their feet and the shoes they where wearing and Brian posted a question ‘why do we play footbal?’.
Now the referee was whistling and some of the zombies slowly came dangerously near the ball but suddenly a Churchee got an idea and ran to the ball hitting it with his hand. Clearly a foul and all of the zombies started their slow laughs in the process some of the other zombies awoke and it became quit frightening as all the zombies where now standing in front of the goal making intimidating sounds in CAPITALS.
Than tAo came along with his shotgun and I woke up 🙂
Strangeeeeeeee!

I have noticed that any intelligent discussion about RS beliefs and anybody pro RS, is found mainly unacceptable on this blog because as soon as someone brings up some of their beliefs, instead of a discussion about them, certain people start in with personal attacks & personal insults.
Most people will then just leave rather than have an intelligent discussion turn into a pissing match,which most intelligent people won’t engage in.
Yes it is true nobody can be attacked, we take it or leave it, all according to our beliefs, but there is such a thing as manners.
If these certain people fail in having a good arguement they usually resort to personal insults.(defence)
I think Brian could have a point that some very interesting bloggers could be lost due to this behaviour. I have no problem with strong criticism, strong colourful fucking language, though against the ideas, not against the person.
Marina 🙂

Hi Tucson,
Really, really love your post – it kinda says it all! Nothing to add, nothing to take away.
Marina 🙂

Tucson
Interesting post as usual – the idea of absolute reality being unmanifested potential in constant flux seems to be the crux of many of the less religious forms of mysticism and deism.
There are many questions raised tho:
1) if the unmanifest is all there is, and we are all part of it, why is there even the appearace of manifestation, i.e. of objects and us?
2) what has caused some localised parts of this formless potentiality to manifest into forms, and moreover, caused a particular type of manifestation having a consciousness that is able to perceive other localised parts of the formless reality?
3) how do we know that this formless unmanifest potentially actually exists? How can we ‘realise’ it?

Tucson, do you know as a fact that ‘the identified forms return to the homogenous field of light and sound?’ Everything could possibly get sucked into a dark hole.
But if you are correct about the idea of returning to a Formless Potential, potent yet unmanifest, then on the same basis, you could say that the Formless Potential lives to manifest. Possibly, it longs to manifest in a spectrum of ideas made physical and mental- solidified temporarily only to return after a period, to the source. Then what you would be looking at is creation and you would subscribe to Creationism. Would the concept you are describing be Creationism?
Bear in mind though, that what you are presenting cannot be tested here and now, because we would each be in an idea.
The rootless phantom has to be something potent if it is controlling the manifestation. It would have it’s starting point in the formless and be one of it’s or it’s main impulse.
Never-the-less, on a basic human level, we can see from observation that the idea we live in will pass- it has a time limit. Also, that our manifestation is dependant on all else around us.
In addition, while we are manifesting, it seems that certain behaviours make the manifestation more enjoyable. Those behaviours may include altruism, maintainance of the body and mind, further creativity, problem solving and so on.

“A life was lived by no one except an idea.”
quote tucson
That’s why Nisargadatta Maharaj called it THAT.
Nisargadatta correctly depesonalizes the Substance
of the universe.
The self was a myth. The self was a belief.
It is because we all thought we had a self that we
ran out looking for salvation.
WHO can be saved ? How can a Guru save a self that
never existed ?
The myth, or belief in a self, causes all the problems.
The self waxes and builds an image. The self wishes
to dominate and control, to possess.
But, the wax image of the self melts in the sun.
The self is a sand castle, built on the seashore.
Just waiting for high tide.
Will we survive death ? Or, will only THAT survive
death ?
If one identifIes with THAT, can one ever die ?
THAT ….. which sits on top our heads.

“, why is there even the appearace of manifestation, i.e. of objects and us? ”
quote George
I was watching a science documentary.
Science has now figured this out. To make
a long story short, there is a
positive and negative. If either is out of wack,
it produces what we know as matter.
They say our universe is rare, because
most universes never appear, because they
are neutral.
They estimate our universe is off balance
less then 2 %
Other wise nothing would exist.
It has to do with dark matter balancing
the positive.

Yo, yo! TAO, TARA, MARINA, MIKE, BRIAN, OSHO, NIETZsCHE and anybody else i am again going off line now due to the hard practice i will now take with my music instrument so it is been a pleasure to talk with you and if anybody wants to stay in contact with me, here is the mail: mrtncnk1@gmail.com
I wish you all peace and full happy life.
Your brother!
For you guys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j_TDoOPnIA

Does God use fake Gurus to preach about him ?
Does God use fake Gurus as a means for people
to find their way to him ?
Why do God’s messengers always turn out to be
prone to scandal ?
Can’t God find any honest people to relay
his message ?
Why do God’s messengers always preach one
thing and do another ?
Why do God’s messengers keep changing the
teaching ?
Why are God’s messengers teaching so many
paths to Him ?
Why can’t anybody find God, except for
the messengers ?
Why doesn’t God get off His ass and come
down to earth ?

mike,
yip the big bang is based on the idea of a vaccum fluctation caused by positive and negative virtual particles popping into and out of existence. I think the idea of a quantum field is probably not dissimilar to tucson’s notion of a formless unmanifest potential. You are right there are a handful or so of very finely balanced parameters that appear to have resulted in the creation of the universe.
But it seems to me that Tucson’s is a fundamentally different model or method of insight into reality, as opposed to science. Many of the concepts Tucson describes have been advocated from various philosophers from heraclitus, xeno and the neoplatonists – who perhaps think of reality as a process, rather than in the discrete material terms of science.
Its an interesting philosophical alternate viewpoint on the nature of reality, metaphysics, though i’m not sure how accurately it can actually model reality as compared to science.
Afterall, what can you actually say about a reality that is formless unmanifest potential? It is neither measurable (and hence verifiable) nor does it offer any explanatory power in terms of describing the various forms and manifestations that appear however illusorily them may be, or their behaviour. It also does not really explain why there is pattern or order, or at least the appearance of this in the world around us.
All you can say is, ‘just that’ or ‘just this’.

To George, Catherine, etc….
Somehow, it is just “known”, but not in a conventional sense of knowing. There is no word for the knowing I speak of. I can’t explain it. No “one” realizes it. What would realize it would be other than it. There is no method to grasp air, yet there is air. I just write because the mood hits me. Don’t take it too literally. (I won’t flatter myself by saying don’t take me too seriously.) All words and concepts fall short but that is all we have here. Really, everything I say is false, but words sometimes can be a springboard into formlessness.

Social-Name
i don’t know what you’ve been smokin, because you sound like a nit-wit who wandered into la-la-land.
what gives you the odd idea that I believe in “blue people that look like Smurfs” or the “Blue Lord of Smurfs (Papa-Smurf)” ??
are you friggin nutzo? apparfently so.
however, it does seem like you are the one who needs that “instant release from the contamination of material nature”, that you mentioned.
here is what i posted, that may be what has got you so goofy:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2011/05/how-sant-mat-is-moving-from-duality-to-oneness?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e88f9683a970d#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e88f9683a970d

Mike asked:
“Why doesn’t God get off His ass and come
down to earth ?”
Answer:
The Supreme Lord descends from time to time in this material world to re-establish the teachings of the Vedas.
In Bhagavad-gita, chapter 4, verse 7, Lord Krishna promises:
yada yada he dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
“Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion – at that time I descend Myself. To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to re-establish the principles of religion, I Myself appear milleniumm after millenium.”
Lord Krishna therefore appears by His own will whenever there is a predominance of irreligiosity and a disappearance of true religion. Principles of religion are laid down in the Vedas. In the Srimad Bhagavatam it is stated that such principles are the laws of the Lord. Only the Lord can manufacture a perfect system of religion. The Vedas are also accepted as originally spoken by the Lord Himself to Brahma.
Therefore, the principles of dharma, or religion, are the direct orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krishna (dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam). These principles are clearly indicated throughout the Bhagavad-gita. The purpose of the Vedas is to establish such principles under the order of the Supreme Lord, and the Lord directly orders, as revealed at the end of the Gita, that the highest principle of religion is to surrender unto Him only, and nothing more. The Vedic principles push one towards complete surrender unto Him; and, whenever such principles become disturbed by the demonic, the Lord appears to re-institute the sanatana dharma.

Mike wrote:
Why doesn’t God get off His ass and come
down to earth ?
I can’t answer the other questions – but I can answer this one.
It’s because He sent his Son (The Jesus dude) to kind of test the waters before he made a personal appearance.
And when he saw what they did to his son – he thought – fuck this. I aint going down to earth if you fucking pay me! Absolutely no fucking way.
I mean – if this is how they treat my only begotten and beloved son – what the fuck will they do to me.
So he stayed in heaven and just has a peek down at earth from time to time.
And – unless things change drastically – he has no plans to come down – ever!
And who can blame him?

Hi George and Tao,
George says, “All you can say is, ‘just that’ or ‘just this’.”
I will pick just THAT. (grin)
Hi Tao,
I was formally initiated by a sant into
Krishna about 35 years ago. His name is so
long I can’t repeat it without finding his book.
Personally initiated.
The concept is ok. Better than most I
have seen.
Typically the Presence I am speaking of
will occur in a jnani. Not always, but
often. The jnani is void of belief and
has seen through the illusion of the self.
But, most people are not jnani. So, for them
Krishna might be ok. The problem is not so
much surrendering to Krishna,
but making the mistake of surrendering to a Guru.
When I was initiated in this long ago, I
was told to visualize my preferential form
of Krishna. That form should come to life.
I have seen many objects of affection in
my years, many Gods in various groups.
The Presence a jnani can entertain is
not a belief, nor is there surrender.
The surrender has turned into confidence
in the Presence. The Presence is so
competent one just falls into its arms.
But, it is not impossible at all, if the person is a true seeker, for the
Presence to be with those whom surrender, no matter
the faith.

Hi Osho,
It’s funny I grew up Catholic and saw
thru the fiasco at age 17.
Now I am its biggest critic. They killed
untold millions of people in their religious
ambition and corruption.
Lets face it Osho, most people are not
very smart religious wise. Most people
don’t have a clue.
Even Radhasoami has turned into a Mafia.
Look at the Jehovahs, Mormons, Muslims
and Catholics.
Religion is incredibly scary. Fanatics
run the show. They are often lunatics
whom think they are in touch with God,
or God has chosen them.
The best thing a person can do is trash
everything. Then if they start out again,
at least they will not be deceived, or hurt.
Such things as Zen and jnani are a good
start. The person realizes if anything
is to happen to them, it must start
from themself. It must happen in themself.
That’s why Ramana Maharshi, Jiddo and U. G.
krishnamurti are so popular today.
The Gurus and masters have all failed.
Exotic inner experiences have failed.
Ways and methods have failed.
The logic itself was a complete failure.
So, the person ends up with themself, alone.
If they are a true seeker, they realize
they have made a mistake. If they are not
a true seeker, they continue in their
misguided ways.
So, the people on this club have come
back to themself, after long journies.
Very few people are smart enough to do
even this.
At least they are free.

Tucson, the idea or feeling of knowing is experienced by all, for all sorts of possible and also bizarre senarios. You’re saying things come from one thing then go back to it and that thing creates it all. The manifestations or creations that we are in at the moment are small parts of it and they’ll come to pass. So keeping that in mind, live life.
While living life, are you saying it really doesn’t matter what happens or how we make things happen or how we perceive things because ultimately it all goes back to the ‘creative ocean’ and manifests again and again in different ways.
Going back to sound and light can mean going back to a cacaphony of jarring sounds and blindingly unpleasant light or a more pleasant version of the two.
If death is the opposite to life, then maybe it’s all the opposite after this life.
What you are writing there is what has been written before in guiding texts, esp. reminiscent of Buddhism.
Grasping air is possible for sure; open your hand and grasp; or open your mouth and close- just being literal!
If you look at what you wrote, you made some clear assumptions which are perspectives afterall- dream ons, wishful thinking.
Just playing with possibilities Tucson; it’s always thought-provoking to read your comments.

Mike says:
“…Zen and jnani are a good start. The person realizes if anything is to happen to them, it must start from themself. It must happen in themself. That’s why Ramana Maharshi, Jiddo and U. G.krishnamurti are so popular today.”
But isn’t this what all the gurus, sants and mystics all say, ‘know thyself’?
Its just there methods of getting there are different. But I don’t even know what ‘know thyself’ means, how could anyone? How can one know thyself or even come to the realisation that there is no self and that we are in fact all part of the One (formless unmanifest potentiality)?
And even if one were to arrive at such a realization, what difference does this make to your life or death or anything else? you are still going to live a life governed by the senses and when you die thats it, back to the oneness or nothingness potentiality.

Hi Evilbuster and any other RS followers here,
i have been to this blog long back,and had many rounds of conversations,and even i had online conversation with osho,
well brother just a piece of advice to you,(well anyhow its upto you whether you follow it or not),
well dear,this blog is regarding individual understanding and their own perception,
you no need to defend offend or have a long arguments with these bloggers,as they have their own idea about their own understanding,
being here,just believe me you will gain nothing,ok if you have lot of time you can come here,its an public platform,anyone can come,but if you are spending your valuable time here then better ignore this blog,
just have faith in what you are following and just be with it,
these talks about santmat changing and stuff is very natural and common,it has been happening from the day of human existence,
its just now because of information technology we get to read a lot and can do lot of research,nothing else much changed,in guru nanak devs times there were people who have been indifferent to santmat,same in bulleh shah’s time,paltu,dadu,sheikh farid,and many more..there has been always people who have been raising question towards santmat and openly criticizing it,but then let them do their work and you do yours,
i have all the answers for osho,but i have long back made the judgment that he wont understand at all.what he says santmat 1.0 and 2.0 and further up gradation,this is all their own mind creation,nothing else,if he himself look inside his ownself,he will find that coming years osho have also changed a lot,and may be the present osho version would be around 10.00 or so,so change is the need for life,whether in teachings,whether in understandings its very natural activity,
but then one should have the ability to understand that change,but few like osho get confused and create their own theories,and i say let them do it.
to all rs brothers,let this blog lovers do what they are doing,and you do what you are said to do,
being getting out of path is a very natural n normal activity,you need not pay that attention to those who leaving,let them.
bulleh once said a very nice sayings,if anyone can translate in english can do it,i m telling it in punjabi,
Tenu chor nal ki,Tenu sadh nal ki,
Tu apni nepadh Tanu hor nal ki.

i shared about bulleh shah sayings because he was also a kind of GSD of his times,at that time also tara like people were there,
and what is the fuss in sharing the sayings of saint like bulleh shah,you people are after GSD because he is alive and available,if bulleh shah would be have been alived..you guys would have not spared him,instead of GSD,you would been talking abt BS,that would be the only difference.
and bolo tara tara you can put down your thoughts as per your own understanding i have nothing to do with it..i said what i felt and what i liked..i m not at all here to offend or defend GSD,i just alerted a fellow friend who was acting the way,i actually did long back.
till then you guys can be busy counting and creating with more versions of santmat…

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on situation) rules are generally not directly within the ability of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are generally used more directly by those at the leadership, key players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy or conspiracy to cover up.
1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know, don’t discuss it — especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it’s not reported, it didn’t happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.
2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the ‘How dare you!’ gambit.
3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method which works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such ‘arguable rumors’. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a ‘wild rumor’ from a ‘bunch of kids on the Internet’ which can have no basis in fact.
4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary ‘attack the messenger’ ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as ‘kooks’, ‘right-wing’, ‘liberal’, ‘left-wing’, ‘terrorists’, ‘conspiracy buffs’, ‘radicals’, ‘militia’, ‘racists’, ‘religious fanatics’, ‘sexual deviates’, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism, reasoning — simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent’s viewpoint.
7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could be taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.
8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough ‘jargon’ and ‘minutia’ to illustrate you are ‘one who knows’, and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man — usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with – a kind of investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.) Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues — so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the ‘high road’ and ‘confess’ with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made — but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, ‘just isn’t so.’ Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later, and even publicly ‘call for an end to the nonsense’ because you have already ‘done the right thing.’ Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for ‘coming clean’ and ‘owning up’ to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues.
12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to lose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic
which forbears any actual material fact.
14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues qualifying for rule 10.
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won’t have to address the issue.
17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can ‘argue’ with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how ‘sensitive they are to criticism.’
19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the ‘play dumb’ rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.
20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations — as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed
with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed and unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed. Usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim.
22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.
23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes.
24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of theircharacter by release of blackmail information, or merely by destroying them financially, emotionally, or severely damaging their health.
25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen. .
Note: There are other ways to attack truth, but these listed are the most common, and others are likely derivatives of these. In the end, you can usually spot the professional disinfo players by one or more of seven (now 8) distinct traits:
Posted 1 month ago #
blacksmith
Key Master
Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
by H. Michael Sweeney 1997, Revised April 2000 – formerly SEVEN Traits)
1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility.
2) Selectivity. They tend to pick and choose opponents carefully, either applying the hit-and-run approach against mere commentators supportive of opponents, or focusing heavier attacks on key opponents who are known to directly address issues. Should a commentator become argumentative with any success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as well.
3) Coincidental. They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a new controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation in general discussions in the particular public arena involved. They likewise tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish with the reason.
4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.
5) Anti-conspiratorial. They almost always have disdain for ‘conspiracy theorists’ and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for conspiracy theorists, do they focus on defending a single topic discussed in a NG focusing on conspiracies? One might think they would either be trying to make fools of everyone on every topic, or simply ignore the group they hold in such disdain.Or, one might more rightly conclude they have an ulterior motive for their actions in going out of their way to focus as they do.
6) Artificial Emotions. An odd kind of ‘artificial’ emotionalism and an unusually thick skin — an ability to persevere and persist even in the face of overwhelming criticism and unacceptance. This likely stems from intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the evidence, deny everything, and never become emotionally involved or reactive. The net result for a disinfo artist is that emotions can seem artificial. Most people, if responding in anger, for instance, will express their animosity throughout their rebuttal. But disinfo types usually have trouble maintaining the ‘image’ and are hot and cold with respect to pretended emotions and their usually more calm or unemotional communications style. It’s just a job, and they often seem unable to ‘act their role in character’ as well in a communications medium as they might be able in a real face-to-face conversation/confrontation. You might have outright rage and indignation one moment, ho-hum the next, and more anger later — an emotional yo-yo. With respect to being thick-skinned, no amount of criticism will deter them from doing their job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that they play that game — where a more rational individual who truly cares what others think might seek to improve their communications style, substance, and so forth, or simply give up.
7) Inconsistent. There is also a tendency to make mistakes which betray their true self/motives. This may stem from not really knowing their topic, or it may be somewhat ‘freudian’, so to speak, in that perhaps they really root for the side of truth deep within.
I have noted that often, they will simply cite contradictory information which neutralizes itself and the author. For instance, one such player claimed to be a Navy pilot, but blamed his poor communicating skills (spelling, grammar, incoherent style) on having only a grade-school education. I’m not aware of too many Navy pilots who don’t have a college degree. Another claimed no knowledge of a particular topic/situation but later claimed first-hand knowledge of it.
8) BONUS TRAIT: Time Constant. Recently discovered, with respect to News Groups, is the response time factor. There are three ways this can be seen to work, especially when the government or other empowered player is involved in a cover up operation:
http://secret-history-of-laura-knight-jadczyk.info/forum/topic/twenty-five-ways-to-suppress-truth-the-rules-of-disinformation

Wow! Just how many of those rules does Babaji-G get to use in just one Q&A session … he’s gotta at least have a Masters in Disinformation!

Hi Seeker,
Arguable rumors is interesting. Without
Gurinder going in print we cannot use
references. He cannot be quoted as
no note taking is permitted.
Did you know notes are admissable in court ?
And, hearsay is not.
Gurinder is protecting a legal position.
Charan was a barister (lawyer) . His
books were full of omissions, which
is the keyword in fraud.
You would think someone who was a vegetarian
and an artist would be a nice person.
Until you learned it was Hitler.
Rajinder makes a fool out of himself
constantly, every time he opens his
rhetorical mouth.
He makes the mistake of printing his
garbage in his supreme arrogance.

Hi Tara and Brian and Osho,
first tara,
I was wondering if you could write an
article for me on the Dera culture.
The same things you are writing now,
all put together including the money
problems with documentation.
Maybe Brian could add his experiences
and money documentation.
And, Osho and Brian’s the new sant mat
is very important. If Brian could write
an article, or take what has been written
and put it in one article.
I could then take these two aricles
and add new pages to Radhasoami Beas
Secret History and feature them on front page.
About 175 new people every day read
this web site and it may exist for hundreds
or thousands of years.
It would greatly help to use (center)xxx(/center) for titles and (p)xxx (/p)
for paragraphs. Don’t use ( ) brackets,
but sharp brackets. I cannot put them
on this post or they won’t show up.
Sideway V’s..
You people have already written most of it.
I would only edit to make it legally correct
with words like may, possibly, I believe, etc.
Brian might have to use an email attachment
for the sharp V’s, sideways brackets to come
through. Assume Brain has my email, but not sure,
I can send on a post that would not be printed with my email.

Yes, Mr Williams, what might be cited as ‘evidence’ & what remains ‘hearsay’…
Guess you could say over the years Babaji-G has become quite astute at handling ‘information’ vis-a-vis the mob. And, it’s only on rare occasions that he lets his guard down; for instance when confronted with a familiar face he can forget the public context & come out with the odd ‘Rubbish’ then it’s a matter of a quick-recontextualisation etc.
However, could say that by default ‘evidence’ of much disinformation is there if what the hierarchy consider the muggins of the sangat were to open-their-eyes & dig a bit deeper. Just consider the stream of RSSB literature Babaji-G continues to dumb-down & propagate for the masses.
There was, way back, a great article entitled something like ‘Alienation; the career of a concept’ … it traced the way in which that particular concept had been ‘used’ & re-defined & etc over the centuries to its most recent association with Marx. Now, while not being a language scholar, it still seems pretty obvious – looking back to early SM/RS literature to the more recent RSSB take – that there’s been a whole shift in the use/definition/contextualisation of the concept ‘sat guru’ over the last 150 odd years. Indeed, that very concept has had an interesting career!
And, perhaps, it could be said that it took the current RSSB family lineage – from the patriarchal, stick-wielding, Great to the current great g’son (who, his very humble self, described his ancestor’s take, Phil o’ Masters, on the inner as ‘Rubbish’) to actually cement that very concept to the ‘physical’.
So, why this 20th century career shift? Perhaps we need look no further for an explanation than the rise of the current patriarchal regimes of the Middle East. How better to retain a line of authority? Indeed, whether a spiritual/economic/social/cultural/military community or whatever … evidence throughout history suggests it tends to work just the same and, inevitably, they become grounded in what is no more, no less than a culture of disinformation dressed-up, in the specific case of RSSB, as some secret, superior, top-notch form/method of spirituality.
As I’ve sorta said before … and I appreciate that I’m ‘preaching to the converted’ … you need only look back to the recent likes of Ramana, Nisagadatta, fakir-C et al, to know that anyone who had experienced what ever Truth there is to be known would simply be incapable of engaging in or propagating such practice. In other words, that isn’t-where-it’s-at for them! So, no wonder they didn’t end their days as multi-millionaires, ruling over billion-dollar foundations, driving Bentleys, flying first-class and, most importantly, being anal about what was recorded, written, photographed & made public about what they had to say, what they thought, what they believed & had experienced to be the Truth, and simply how they lived their daily lives!

That’s an interesting post seeker,
Nisargadatta ( and his disciple Ramesh
Balsekar, whom books I recommend)were
quite remarkable.
Nisargadatta used to sell packs of
cigarettes outside his small flat
in a cart stand !
Gurus are parrots. They change and adapt
eveytime someone comes up with a better
mouse trap.
Gurinder is changing with the times.
It is good people become agnostic
and dump all religion.
Although I believe in a negative and
postive power, I do not believe in God.
I really blame Charan and Kirpal about
all the bogus Radhasoami history.
They were flat out deceivers and liars
beyond what anyone can imagine.
They were literally criminals.

Mike you do not know anything about the radhasoami history and what all you claimed and mentioned in your website …is nothing but tons of BS.
but it doesn’t matter though because who know the truth anyhow and anyways knows the truth,
so you can carry on with your BS,you are free to do it,because its very normal a person who himself is full of crazy thoughts and greed and jealous of a particular path,well he have to get into BS era,so mike carry on with your non-sense claims and fake writings,it will fetch you nothing,
brain blog is far much more better than yours,because what you all have is just fake,i do not want to prove it as soon a website will be hosted,where people will come to know the clear truth of RS,where every reply and answer would be mention step by step comparing your own BS written in ur own Website.
what brian does in his blog,he pen down his personal experience,frustration,his own level of understanding,and his not able to lead the path,his getting of track from RS,his hatred for rs guru,etc etc..all what he is doing atleast he is being true to himself,but what mike you are doing is just 3.0 version of BS nothing else,
you do not know RS gurus more closer than me.
but anyways..you please carry on with your ranting and chanting it will anyhow would not effect…
in any path its very natural people getting into it..for some reason,getting out of it for some reason,more people joining in for some reasons..so this will go on dude.

“you do not know RS gurus more closer than me”
Your talking about this region I imagine ?

I m posting an video link of a self claimed saint who can be termed as brother concern-to this blog as he is doing something more profound 😛 by bashing every path and religion if you guys can understand hindi
then enjoy more videos of this guy available on youtube
http://youtu.be/ZueA-Ok55_c

I belive, i belive i belive in negative amazon reviews.

Hi tara, email transfered.
Mia, All I hear is opinions from satsangis
in rebutal. Never facts.
Put your facts on the table.

Mike,its M L A not M I A
anyways
Mike you would anyhow not believe my words,in i put it on table,
because like i have always heard this word related for a rs follower that rs follower all are”Brain washed” which is completely incorrect,I have all the answers for Brian,
but mentioning it here on a blog is of no use,
because there are many to distract,discriminate and divert the facts in their own ways.
mike i do not have any clue,what you write all about the secret history is something you have got it from a first hand knowledge,or else this all gains are from some one else head or some other books.
but my belief and faith in RS is first hand and not just from others head and any books,
i have first hand experience from RS,
though at the very beginning when i visited this blog i acted in a very harsh,rude way which i already have apologized to brian,
though it was natural,but still what i did was incorrect.
anyways,
i have seen someone planning for KUMB MElA
if someone can add my name that would be really nice meeting all these blah blah speakers and weird thinkers,physically,then perhaps i can have the real discussion and conversation.
And once again for osho i wanted to say.he is charging some money in order to transform the other,but i really doubt..a man who is still not aware of the true meaning of transformation,is really capable of making others understand.
thats really a question? Mark? on osho..
his knowledge is very limited..which is again very natural.
he sees something,differentiate something and then he feel so nice and relaxed for finding out this differences ,but in these process he miss out many other points,which if at all he would have concentrated he would have got more profound knowledge.
but thats again a matter of chance n choice.
i really have no issue.if some one leaves a particular path and someone joins a particular path,
my only single concern is,if truth not known,one should keep it for self,instead of making false and fake statements and posts ..
thats it for now..

well tara for you rs is bs
but for me it is not,
and about knowing GSD,
well my dear,he stays 10 months in india,
any westerner can never have the chance of being with him more than any indian can have,
so i know him more personally than you,and been with him,and i know all the people involved my dear,you no need to go ga ga over it.
and its completely natural for being voted out from your meet in kumbh mela,
well for that you guys would have been fortunate,but poor guys you are not so fortunate,this shows that you people are not willing to know the truth at all,and you guys just wanted to rant your self acclaimed intellect and ideas,which i do not qualify them at all,
and i have not put down any pile of dogma,,
its just your limited understanding capacity that you found no other reason to pin point me,
and i know the truth much better than you dear,tara you really do not know the truth or real reality.
But anyways you can continue with your own version of dogma,i never mind,
what all i know is
You cannot run away from truth…
either u will get caught or either truth will catch you one day for sure..
because spirituality doesnt just belong to GSD,
its something which is there from the time of existence of this earth..and will be there till end..
enjoy your furstration and ranting for rs..
please carry on,but with dignity…

mla first of all Tara is from India and is GREAT person.
mla: …any westerner can never have the chance of being with him more than any indian can have
—first of all that is a total of your imagination.
mla:well for that you guys would have been fortunate,but poor guys you are not so fortunate
—and with your approach we would not get any richer
mla: which i do not qualify them at all,
–totaly your problem
mla:and i know the truth much better than you dear,tara you really do not know the truth or real reality
—this sentence shows that you have no clue at all but mla be cool there is nothing wrong with being clueless do not beat yourself up that much
mla:because spirituality doesnt just belong to GSD,
its something which is there from the time of existence of this earth..and will be there till end..
—a little better
mla: enjoy your furstration and ranting for rs..
please carry on,but with dignity
—mla do you know what this behavior means? look yourself in a mirror or take a photo of your self and ask that person on a photo… What kind of a person you are wishing someone else to enjoy frustration? Do you dare to ask that person on a photo this question deeply and honestly? Do you dare? If you dare you will never come on anyone like you did in the past you will be fresh and happy.

On the ‘Rules of Disinformation’…
I laughed heartily at these rules and more so with the implication that they apply only to a select few ‘groups’ of people.
Look carefully and apply them to oneself would be the best medicine!
From the cradle to the grave, we have or are all been disinformed. We can blame someone else for it but who is the one who has these thoughts or beliefs or identities running around in their own head, Now.
We all have an identity which can change and update like the weather but underneath there is a root identity, usually poor self-worth, a fear of being ‘nothing’, that drives all our needs or desires – to become more whole, to fix, to ‘find’ the truth.
I AM gathers add on’s such as I AM Marina, I AM a mother, I AM not good enough, I AM evil, I AM, bad, I AM confident, I AM good, I AM superior, I AM inferior……
….and so with this never ending list one may feel the need to be saved, to get to Sach Khand, heaven, nirvana, enlightenment and lo and behold along comes something that promises us freedom/liberation.
Starting from this point may seem as a non starter because it is stemming from the false belief in I AM blah blah blah or somehow lacking. But one has to start from where one is at until one ‘sees the light’ so to speak.
We try to fill this ‘lack’ just like one would keep trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it with water [validation, approval, money, sex, power, appreciation…]
But no matter how much we keep putting in water,[desire] the bucket never stays full and eventually will keep on leaking until we first realise the root problem – the hole. Even when we do realise there is a hole in our bucket, we try to get someone else to tell us how to ‘fix it’ or better (or worse) still, we try to get ‘them’ to do it for us.
Here is a classic link regarding this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfCQ-t7xY0&NR=1
The conclusion reached by scientists is that the observer determines the experience of what is observed. Matter is then created by th intent or desire of the individual observer. This observation produces awareness, which is consciousness, which is thought. These things create matter.
“All that matters is what you make matter. Therefore, you make matter.” ~ Howard Falco
Imagine if nature was able to disinform itself. A tree was ill treated by humans. A lot of its brances was cut down.The news would quickly spread to all the other trees who may then blanket every human being as dangerous and may refuse to give shade or bear fruit for human consumption.
To give a wee story, oh I do love wee stories on boats.
I use to think there was something wrong with me. I was doomed. Along came RS and promised salvation, freedom and liberation from all this suffering of ‘mine’. It promised to give an experince of being good enough and accepted. Naturally, I felt validated and into the RS boat I eagerly jumped, so delighted that somehow I was alright that I would be saved. (Now I see a bit more clearly, that it been more like, being saved from myself:))
Well this boat of RS seemed so special. We were all given our own lil boat with the RS mark on them. Out into the big ocean we were told to go and row [meditate]! Oh, it felt so much better.
At first I felt really special coming from a place of low self worth at the time. I regularly ran into my mother in her lil boat. Now her lil boat was a different one to mine. Hers was a catholic boat. Many a time she accused me of rocking my boat too hard and told me I shouldn’t do that. I felt sometimes that she could kill me for rocking my boat as both of us knew, neither was a strong swimmer. Well, I could float and not swim well, though she was really afraid of the water and didn’t like me making waves.
Many a time I defended my boat and my rocking and even sneakily subtly, tried to put hers down! In the latter few years I didn’t bother, not out of fear, but more out of respect. You see, I began to see my boat as less superior and more as, just different than her boat.
My mother and her boat has since passed on and I am still here on the ocean.
What about my boat? Well, let me say that I am now a confident swimmer and am more and more venturing outside my boat and have visited many other different boats to have a look around. I have found some similar boats, some really interesting boats, a lot of boats into being superior boats; some even have no boats and have claimed that they don’t need a boat anymore that they are happy and not trying to get anywhere. Others claim too, no need for a boat, but one would wonder when they can be seen flailing about sometimes in the sometimes stormy ocean having to be rescued by some passing boat or just tossed and turned endlessly in the see of suffering.
There is also congregation of boats playing boat races and hoards of supporters cheering on their particular crew. Oh, some of this is taken very seriously.
Now my boat is never too far away from me. Sometimes I feel I have outgrown my boat but other times I realise that there is a different way to steer the boat from how I first thought.
I haven’t reached the shore yet and my lil boat is still in the picture, but in the meantime if my lil boat gets waterlogged or sinks with too much use or bad use, or I outgrow my boat, I will not fall to pieces and drown in sorrow nor will I ever forget that lil boat and how much it meant to me on at that particular time on my travels.(Real or not)

On another note, I liked your story Brian about how you got into RSSB and others too. What a picture (in the hip shirt, dark hair and beard) Oh, you where a handsome devil! 🙂
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2008/12/my-strange-rssb?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2014e8a7121d0970d#tp
On the Kumb Mela thing, I shall have my suitcase packed and ready to go!
One thing though, I am not sure about wearing Churchless t-shirts for no other reason than I would not want to wear a RS or a Marina t-shirt. Don’t want to boxed.
A suggestion – we could all get our own t-shirts with our own slogan and says something about us, individually.
My 21 year old son was over the other day and he had a vest t-shirt on him. On his upper arm is tattooed ‘Never Give Up’. My husband (not his father) asked if I thought that summed him up. I thought about it and laughed as I felt thinking back, it definitely summed him up. It left me thinking. What tattoo would I get that wouldn’t outdate as years go by and one that I wouldn’t cringe in years to come either? I am still ‘looking’ for that word or slogan. If any bloggers has a tattoo, does it still mean the same thing as when ye first got it or do you cringe?
Marina

Question for Mike Williams, David Lane, Tara …
Charities Commission, UK
1140041 –
SCIENCE OF THE SOUL – BRITISH ISLES
NEWLY REGISTERED
Other names !
SOS (Working Name )
Governing document !
TRUST DEED DATED 8 JANUARY 2011
Area of benefit !
THE BRITISH ISLES
Charitable objects !
1 TO ADVANCE THE EDUCATION IN, FOR THE PUBLIC BENEFIT, THE PHILOSOPHY OF SANT MAT AS TAUGHT BY THE SANT SAT GURUS OF DERA BABA JAIMAL SINGH, BEAS, PUNJAB, INDIA
2 EDUCATING THE PUBLIC IN THE IMPORTANCE OF THE COMMON SHARED VALUES OF ALL RELIGIONS NOTWITHSTANDING THEIR CULTURAL, REGIONAL OR NATIONAL DISTINCTIONS IN ORDER TO PROMOTE MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING AND RESPECT BETWEEN ALL FAITHS AND RELIGIONS
3 PROMOTING KNOWLEDGE, MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING AND RESPECT BETWEEN PEOPLES OF DIFFERENT FAITHS BY A STUDY OF THE CORE VALUES AND PRINCIPLES OF THEIR DIFFERENT FAITHS
4 THE RELIEF OF FINANCIAL NEED AND SUFFERING AMONG VICTIMS OF NATURAL OR OTHER KINDS OF DISASTER IN THE FORM OF MONEY (OR OTHER MEANS DEEMED SUITABLE) FOR PERSONS, BODIES, ORGANISATIONS AND/OR COUNTRIES AFFECTED, INCLUDING THE PROVISION OF MEDICAL AID
Date registered !
25 January 2011 !
Classification !
What
• GENERAL CHARITABLE PURPOSES
• EDUCATION / TRAINING
• RELIGIOUS ACTIVITIES
Who
• THE GENERAL PUBLIC / MANKIND
How
• OTHER CHARITABLE ACTIVITIES
So, just wondering, is RSSB now undergoing a complete re-branding in UK/West, not just letter-headings & charity ref? Is the intention to eventually drop RSSB label/moniker in favour of Science of the Soul (SOS) Study Centre? A nod to JohnD maybe (joke!) … what with One-being-One?

Part quoted above by Seeker 2011:
“2 EDUCATING THE PUBLIC IN THE IMPORTANCE OF THE COMMON SHARED VALUES OF ALL RELIGIONS NOTWITHSTANDING THEIR CULTURAL, REGIONAL OR NATIONAL DISTINCTIONS IN ORDER TO PROMOTE MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING AND RESPECT BETWEEN ALL FAITHS AND RELIGIONS
3 PROMOTING KNOWLEDGE, MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING AND RESPECT BETWEEN PEOPLES OF DIFFERENT FAITHS BY A STUDY OF THE CORE VALUES AND PRINCIPLES OF THEIR DIFFERENT FAITHS”
I always felt that these guidelines already applied. Anything I have personally heard BJ say at Dera has always been consistent with these 2 guidelines.[granted, the old books may not have been so embracing]
On the churchless t-shirts Tara – I have no problem posing for foto in one of them. I will skip the ditching it though, just in case anybody at Dera gets up my nose, then out will come the t-shirt and with the pride of a peacock, I will strut my t-shirt![maybe] 😉
Marina

mungos my dear innocent,first u look into ur inner self and see your own behaviour,
before pin pointing on others look into urself,
you are full of EGO and self centered,
but thats natural,
why shud i look into mirror for what i have committed nothing,
its you who need a mirror urgently,
and if u want to get into “READY”
made discussion,i will welcome you,but only on personal email,not here in public domain,
if u are interested we can be in touch in emails,i do not want to discuss anything related to path in public,
you may ask reason why?
well because you people love RSSB so much that you are consistently after it,if the words of master is been not understood by you guys,
so how come you will understand my words.
you will again start the automated assault and rounds of rants,which i dont want to get into,
and mungos i saw a reflection of TAO in you,
keep it up u r learning to be another tao,
and about tara yes he is a good man but only according to you.
and why he is a good man,because he agrees with you ,
you people all belongs to same group where you like n love eachother for just agreeing on same topic and issues,
and same failures which you all have met with regarding santmat..
so dear mungos,if u want to share thru personal email then leave ur email id.
but in public i would not discuss anything in detail …
no reasons mentioned for so..

Hi Marina,
your way of writing and expressing is commendable.
you are very intellectual,like brian you are writing have sense…
i admire the way you write n express.
something i need to learn from you.

Is OshoRobbins and Tim or Tom Robbins the same person? I like the messages, just not sure who is who?

mla aka Manish you are long here to know Tara is girl and not according to me she is great- she is just GREAT wether i want it or not.
And mla aka Manish do you think i am a new victim for your attacks and ugly words am i a fresh meat.No i don’t want to drag that stuff out of you no i don’t want for you to write tousands and tousands of bad words again and i am wishing you well even from my according to you big ego. And mla if i meat tAo in me should i say hello to him? Be well and try to stay out of that past language of yours i think Gurinder would be pleased.If you really love him that much you will never insult anybody here and everywhere. Peace

Well mla,
Thanks for your comments. Honestly? I don’t know about the intellectual bit – I had to look up the definition of commendable to make sure what it meant but believe me; you don’t need to learn anything from me, though we can all learn from ourselves. 🙂
And Georgie peorgie,
I will take this opportunity too to thank you for your last comments to me. [On being brutally honest. I forget which thread it was on]
I am realising that I have a thick skin built up regarding people disagreeing with me and I don’t know what to do or how to respond (or not) sometimes, when it goes to the other extreme. Sometimes it is hard acclimatising to the other side as it is fairly new and virtually uncharted waters 😉

Marina

mla,
you’re a self-righteous condescending little snot.
you stink. that’s right. nobody here likes you and your self-righteous prattle. so why don’t you go find some other blog to dump you’re crap on.
where i come from… if you were to talk to folks in same the manner that you do here, you’d literally get your face punched and your ass beaten, and then you’d get run out of town. no doubt about it.
people generally don’t like assholes (like you) who have condescending attitudes (like you do).
i’m surprised that the owner of this blog has allowed your ass back on this blog, especially after all the disgusting preachy shit you posted here the last time.
so mla, you can kiss my country ass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rMPrg_WP7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJixs2FoZ_Y

rebel are you a joker or a clone of tao mungos or mike
look into urself what language you are using,
please behave yourself..
or do not respond to my post when it anyhow havent addressed to you,
and about my past behavior i have been already apologize to brian twice,and i m far much better than you idiot,that i accepted my fault.
now this much of reply is enough for such a silly person YOU,you are completely out of sense while posting the reply on me,
better be in your senses next time while you post.
you urself using bad language and accussing me.reminds me like you are some joker of an circus…hilarious.
mungos you always try to act like a rat,why is that,
first you challenge me to get “READY” and then immediately you change your mind..is this kind of process runs in your blood,
you people continuously use bad words and bad language,and accuse me for no reasons,
i really do not understand with what motive you guys come on the blog and reply to a particular post,
why dont you guys learn some ethics and morals from brian,george,and marina,learn to behave with dignity like these three wonderful people does,
you all are full of self centered ego system running in your mind,and always accuse the other for being harsh and rude,
its just you do not find the way to talk to me,you fear that i may take out the truth from you guys,thats why you always divert the matter and start insulting me,
come dear find another good way,
dont act with so much of anger and frustration,i know you guys failed in santmat,it happens take it lightly,
dont be serious,and mungos whether guriender would be pleased by my language or not why are u so concerned you should be concerned of your ownself,
you people are very confusing all the time,
just need a chance to rant over rssb masters,
do it..but i said many times i think people here are half blind..cant read properly,
i said do it..but with dignity,like brain does..
you people are just spoiling the image of brain..

Marina can i have your personal email id?
would you like to share some personal messages with me?
please let me know.

mla where on eart you find my ugly words. where did i act like rat as you are now calling me where.I knew that calling me egoistical and self centered would not satisfied you now i am a rat.Can you come to my house after my 3hour of surat shabd meditation and after my two little children wake up and when me and my wife and kids are watching cartoon ‘Up’ as a happy family and when i will serve you a nice breakfast would you than stand up and say to my family and me that their daddy is rat and egoistical selfcentered would you go to all my friends whom we exchange help and support that their friend is rat would you go and tell them just because i said to you to not attack people with bad words and to not wish us frustration?
I never on earth came on you with attacks or i never judged you, you twisted that up. Even when someone is not attacking you you are making like one did.Go and read my posts i never insulted anybody including you. So once more and if you come again on hiting me for no reason this will be my last post to you.So once more peace and honesty from me.peace

mla, if you send Brian your email address, he can pass it onto me.
Marina

mungos,i do not have the idea of your age,
but you are acting like a child,
you mentioned about your happy going family,
thats good,i never said anything about you or your family,
and dear open your eyes and open your mind,
i do not know what is the process of reading post for you,
how can you find my post as attacking,instead most of your group people
like mike,tao,you,tara,etc post in a attacking way,i just reply to a particular post,thats it,if my words sounds attacking to you,that is completely your lack of understanding,not mine.Its all your fault not mine,
my dear grow up,its time for you to grow up,
i never wished you frustration,i said it directly that you post seems to be frustrated,
Orelse it can be that
like you are taking my words as attacks(by misunderstanding my words)
may be like that i would be taking ur words as frustration(may be my misunderstanding from your words)in blog and chatting and emails misunderstanding takes place very easily,
as i said many times but i do not understand what you people eat that you guys take so long time to understand,
through words you cannot exactly and accurately judge the other person point of view or point of expression,
because you read other peoples word,but with your own mindset and thoughts,
so you can sometimes understand other words with your own mind set,
now dear thats not my fault,
And tara(bolo tara ra ra ra)
now someone said tara is a lady and a nice lady?
I doubt the claim,
i never see anything nice in her,for any reason,
she how innocently with ignorance said,that i ran away ,from the topic of ,discussing GSD inner circle,
Tara put your glasses on and read the post,
i said it clearly if you can at all understand simple english,
that i m “READY” to discuss anything related to path but through private emails,
not in public,
you people have lost faith in path and are insulting the path or saying tom dick n harry stories,
i m not out of the path,neither i will be ever,
so i have some responsibilities over the path and master,
so i said i will discuss it in private emails
i welcomed you,but instead of replying me for it,you said i ran away,how innocent tara,
and you said insulting is my nature,
dear tara the lady,
how much do you know me that you are talking about my nature,
you do not know anything about ur ownself
you are completely a confused person,
when you are not even qualified of judging and understanding ur ownself
how can you understand me,
how innocent tara you are,
yes my comment may not make any sense,because they are simple and realistic,
its because you have have been failed in something which i haven’t,you will obviously not like my reality and answers,
which once you urself followed dedicatedly(though i doubt).
and tara what is ur age,are you too young or too old,
i mean i cannot understand how you write a post or reply it,
you said RSSB criticizer are on my list,
so very much innocent you are tara,
yes i agree once my behaviour was actually not acceptable,and thats the only time i felt i was wrong and that is the only time i apologized ,but not again n again,i repeated that,so please first read all the post carefully,or get any good experienced person with you,who can read post on behalf of you and can make you understand,
yes at last ur rite in saying
tao,mungos and mike are not in my league,
and how can be they in my league,
I DO NOT BELONG to their LEAGUE at all,
i m very much happy the way i m ,
and yes dear i can understand them very much,
but sorry to say ,the out of league guys cannot understand me,
in this blog,i can relate with brian,george,marina these three guys,
even osho i really feel pity for him,
he is also very much innocent,
i always have stable view point tara,but you guys never have stable replies,
you guys keep on diverting the topics uselessly,
like you said i RAN AWAY FROM THE TOPIC< hilarious, instead read my post reply once again clearly with glasses on, you will may be get the idea what i have posted, and tara be a real person. what ever i say,i said it many times on this blog its my personal individual opinion RSSB has nothing to do with it neither the master, but you guys always pin point RSSB relating to my post, that shows how cheap mentality guys u are, would it be right if for your post i start blaming your family,father mother hubby or kids, would it be right? just think it twice? you people are really frustrated, and please grow up for ur own family sake, i havent wish frustration, because u guys are really frustrated, insulting others and always letting others down like you guys do will never bring happiness, and for god sake read my post atleast 10 times because you guys always read something else and reply something else.. so much of confusion is created from you guys, and tara i m still ready for the discussion but only on private emails, and mungos i m always on peace,but may be it is not reflected through my words.

mla this is my last post to you cause you probably messed me with someone else cause i never bashed RSSB or any other master or any path or yoga or zen or anyhing else and i did not bashed nor you or anybody else. I cannot talk to you if you are puting your thoughts and words into my mouth only last time i am saying to you so you can clear your views about me. I am not a critic and never was you messed me with someone else but if critics are my friends that is none of else bussines.

brian you would have published my earlier post it was all written with pure intentions.
anyways your wish.this blog is urs.
and mungos dear…got it.
now this message of your was crystal clear.
understood.
nice to know that you never mess up with any path or vice versa..thats really good.
i liked that.

This You Tube video has been confirmed now
and has been added to Radhasoami Beas Secret History web site.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50
added to
http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html
Hopefully the financial material about Beas
posted on Church of Churchless will someday
be able to be added, but the source has
not decided to allow its release
unfortunately.
If it can be confirmed, it will be added.

Congratulations to OSHO,
I estimate 12,000 new people a year
will view your videos and that may
expand over time. Your contribution
to Beas sant mat is invaluable.
I also estimate for every 1 RS person
whom learns the new RS philosophy, they
will tell 2 other people. (You can’t
keep anything in sant mat a secret).
Really great videos Osho. You will help
many famalies and children for many many
generations to come.
Your videos are the best thing to come
out in the last decade and may be the best
thing to come out in public ever.
I have always felt the best people to
explain Indian religion, are Indians themsleves.
Us white people stink.

I also have problems with the oneness statement. If God and I am One than I have the same information as God. But that is not true. They say God dwells inside me meaning that there is not spacial difference between me and God. Okay but there is an information difference meaning God sees and hears and feels and uses other information processing than I do. So God and me are not the same seen from information point of view only. That we occupy the same space and time doesn’t change that. Perhaps it is true that I can learn to process the same information God does on my place and in my time. Than there is Oneness. Do I need to sit down and let God teach me the process? Doe God have to open my eyes and ears?
I think it is RSBS to say God is here when the distance in information space is like infinite.
Just rambling 😉

I have to add something. What I noted is that sant mat 1.0 thinks in space and time when it says that we have to travel to Sach Kant and that Radha Soami is not here.
The latest insights in physics are that space is probable an emergent property of the information that is produced by an unknown underlying reality.
In other words there are measurable quantities, the things we hear and see and feel that are the result of an unknown microcosmos.
If we talk about God only as his information content than we have to say nothing about his nature and are still able to discuss some matters like sant mat 2.0.
The same thing happens in physics where we can only discuss an information content knowing nothing about the microscopic origin but still knowing what it will do in the macrocosmos. So the microcosmos is left as an unknown area from which we only assume that it produces information in our consciousness when we somehow interact with it.
This should make clear that the microcosmos has nothing to do with planets. The different areas however might be different experiences. There is no physical journey going on but there is a certain type of order perhaps in different planes of information that are ‘crossed’ and traveling refers to transcending that order. This makes the journey through the different planes a way of saying that our consciousness changes.
The notion of going to sach kant as a spirit after dead does only make sense when the spirit changes his consciousness after death. There is no other spirit taking it to a place in space because it is very unknown if space will still be there at all.
I must admit that I never knew that there where people that took the traveling literally like being a spirit that leaves the body and goes to a place in this universe. I think sant mat 1.0 is shocking to me but now I understand it I do understand some satsangi’s better. They think they meditate on the forehead to leave the body and than they travel past there neighbors to the sun or the moon and than on… Wow that it is possible to take this so literally….
Is it really true do some satsangi’s believe this? If so I never understood it at all but will abandon it from this day on. What a fairy tale! Worse that the heaven for christians that they will get after suffering injustice on earth.

And I have to ask something.
Is the original sant mat (I mean the 14th century version) like RSSB sant mat 2.0?
From this quote below I get that impression because God is inside the body in that quote from Baba Devi Sahab that was an original sant mat guru I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Devi_Sahab#cite_note-3
Blessed and adorable is he within whose body He reveals Himself (i.e. he who can see His true form within himself/ his body).

Hi nietzsche and tara,
“If God and I am One than I have the same information
as God. But that is not true. ”
quote Nietzsche
Exactly, so perfect action can never be attained even
if you become enlightened. That’s the problem.
OK, so we realize we don’t have a self and maybe
not even a soul.
This shatters the subconscious mind because the
ability to act selfishly is gone. Why wax a self
you now know does not exist ? You won’t lift a finger.
People don’t realize it, but they block information
they have strong opionions about. That is hypnotism.
You are hyponotised completely never to look at the
other angle that contradicts your viewpoint.
An enlightened person realizes this. So, they look at
all sides of the story no matter how rediculous the
conflicting ideas are. They have HUMILITY. They
never trust their opinions. They always consider
themselves naive and stupid.
So, the best way to find out if you are enlightened
is to take an idea you are sure of.
Lets say you like Obama and are sure he is good.
Go out and look at negative information about Obama.
Negative information may show up he was not born
in the USA and had forged birth and selective service
documents. Evidence may appear his parents were CIA
and Obama first worked for a CIA company. You find
out Obama attended Bilderberg meetings. You find
out Obama passed NDAA which allows any person in the
world to be killed on his whim, or imprisoned
without habeus corpus. You find out Obama took
money from Goldman Sachs and J. P. Morgan.
OK, now you have more information. Information
that would be hypnotically blocked if you were
not enlightened.
The world is not black and white, but rather
shades of gray.
Do this for any subject you are absolutely sure of.
It could be anything, but must be something you are
sure you are 100% certain of.
So, how can we perform perfect actions even with
seeing all sides of a discussion ?
It can’t be done, although you now have a better chance.
Only Something Else can enter the picture which
can provide the solution. The Something Else must be
nearly all knowing and be able to see the future results
of all actions. So, if you can contact this Something
Else…. and even if you do make a mistake, the Something
Else will correct it unbeknownst to you.
And, lets face it, we do not have the willpower or
knowhow to change ourselves for the better. This Something
Else would then have to change us for the better, without
us even realizing it.
Now, the question becomes, how do we contact this
Something Else right now, without any preperation ?
Right here and right now.
Again, this Something Else isn’t interested in a
perfect philosophical world. The Something Else
would be interested in changing the world for the better.
I.E. You might all of a sudden become a protestor
for climate change, You might find yourself protesting
the New World Order. You might all of a sudden find
you will vote for Ron Paul.
And, this Something Else must by necessity move in
front of you. Because you will be in the extreme
minority of people whom perceive the problem.
Often “good” people will be the ones blocking your
way.
You cannot change the world, only Something Else can.

And something Else can be reached by It’s own reaching.

(continued from my post earlier today)
Hi Moongoes,
As I have said before, you are an incredibly rare person.
Your posts come from another dimension. Few people
ever know the Ultimate Simplicity. I will say no
more, as I don’t want to embarass you, as these
people here may mistakenly think you are holy, or
a Saint, which I am sure would upset you.
But, we know Something Else is fully manifest now.
Besides the many it works through, it also
comes as a lone magnificent voice from England.
Witness the Supreme foreknowledge of the Ultimate
Simplicity. Witness the supreme glory of the
magnificent Simplicity speaking through the mouth
of a man.
It’s great glory is here now. It is telling us our
time is short. It’s predictions are perfect.
It has one message. WAKE UP.
For the people here who actually want to see
the Ultimate Simplicity speak through the mouth
of a man….. here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb-MWoZKYmg&feature=related
——————————————————–

Houdini is often thought of as a great magician.
But, that’s not what he became famous for. When
his mother died he contacted mediums and attended
various seances.
Of course he quickly debunked them. But, he did
something unusual in the last years of his life.
He traveled the country and gave lectures about
the people whom scamed him. He reproduced the
tricks the charlatans were using to dupe the
public. This is what actually made him famous.
You Tube has reproduced many of the tricks Gurus
use such as levitation and materialization. So,
these are becoming known now.
And, in modern days Madame Blavatsky was debunked
in the book Blavatsky’s Baboon, a brilliant effort.
I have seen Gurus do these tricks right in front
of me. And, one fellow, whos name I forget, actually
wrote a book telling the public how they were done.
There would appear to be nothing outside the realm
of science.
And, there is no evidence for a soul or God, or self.
(I have found none of these)
I would agree this is a logical conclusion.
There’s only one problem. There is something called
the supernatural. Faquir Chand spoke of it happenning
around him without his knowledge. Wiliam James spoke
of it.
I have been studying it for 40 years now. And, it has
been in recent years that science is saying our
universe is multidimensional.
I am quite convinced now that there are supernatural
dimensions which can affect ours. It appears to explain
everything from flying saucers to miraculous cures.
But, because we do not know the science yet, does not
mean it is not scientific.
It appears mankind will someday make contact with
the inner dimensions.
Inner space may be the last frontier. But, it will
be nothing like we could ever conceive of it.

Hi Mike,
Glad you are back. I’ve been gone for a month or more, I’ve moved to Henderson, NV from Texas.

The Ultimate Simplicity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsoYkGb7p28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiHqbBWdP7E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8-eC-GzZuM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHVBu77jz4w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KtFZMN7_Bw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQqkHA6LWYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v2nnQIiKOQ&list=PL46D2CC6DCF980E8A

“How Sant Mat is moving from duality to oneness” … ?
So strange that people object to reading the exact words written by the Master. Its not like the religious scriptures which were not written by the living Master at the time. To my understanding the following quote is about “oneness”.
Quote Master Sawan Singh – “Man is an inexhaustible store of powers. The whole creation is within him along with the Creator. The drop is in the ocean and the ocean is in the drop. Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in all creation.” Spiritual Gems, page 140.
Sorry, I wasn’t going to comment anymore, just taking pot luck here to see if it might be posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOFNYy24I4Y
The Secret of Eden, the foundation of most
yoga and religions.
I no longer believe chastity is the key,
but rather Something Else.
Chastity and transformation is not that which opens the Gate.
Nor, will enlightenment, the realization
of no self.
The Gate can only be opened here and now
in whatever condition one is in.
We are hypnotised to believe it takes time.
The only time …….. is now.

@Just me
the quote from spiritual gems:
“Man is an inexhaustible store of powers. The whole creation is within him along with the Creator. The drop is in the ocean and the ocean is in the drop. Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in all creation.” Spiritual Gems, page 140.
You can find many such references in a lot of sant mat books. Duality teachings still reference the state of oneness. What they add is: You have to put in effort to ‘get there’. They say the soul is of the same ESSENCE as God. But it has SEPARATED. So the disciples has to get initiated and meditate in order to take his soul out of his body and merge it with Sat Purush.
Christianity says man has FALLEN from grace.
Sant mat says the soul has separated from Sat Purush and is in the grip of Kal.
In both cases – Jesus/Guru is needed to redeem the soul.
Duality is not about any realization – it is about the soul actually leaving the body and merging.
Ironically, when I was a follower – that was a great attraction of the sant mat path, because it made it real – I would actually experience leaving the body and traversing astral and causal regions with the radiant form of my master accompanying me. This is a very romantic idea for the disciple.
Nobody achieves it (except as a delusion) but everyone HOPES that one day they will get there – it’s just a matter of doing more meditation and having more love for the master.
The disciple is convinced – so he continues to meditate and do seva etc – until the day he dies because he believes the master will come at his death and take care of his soul. HE trusts the master will do what is needed – if that’s a re-birth – that’s fine too. However he rests in the belief that the master will come and will be in charge of his journey to Sach Khand.
In duality teachings – it is going to happen in the future – there is a place / level of consciousness / region to attain. Whatever you call it – it does not matter. The point is – it is a future goal – somewhere to get to. So you sacrifice the present to get to a fictional future ‘heaven’ called Sach Khand.
In non-duality there is no distance and no time between YOU and IT (the illusory goal – God, enlightenment, nirvana). It is not an attainment – no effort is required to ‘get there’ because ‘there’ is not different from ‘here’.
Sant Mat, on the other hand, clearly says – “You have to meditate hard – focus – put in tremendous effort” I have heard GSD saying to questioners, “Nothing is easy in life”
Charan Singh used to say “It is a constant struggle”

Hi Osho, (agree with you)
The masters should say they are all failures.
They are supposed to be all powerful and
cannot even lift the disciple.
If the master was competent the disciple would need to do nothing.
The master would do everything.
Does God need help from the efforts
of the disciple ?
Would we not have to assume the master
(God)is incompetent if he needs help ?
If God needs help … is He God ?

Osho,
You say: “What they add is: You have to put in effort to ‘get there’.”
I don’t know that there is an easier way. New age beliefs talk about just being in the moment and being love and light etc and make it all seem so easy, but its not. In a sense to ‘get there’, if one is talking about raising one’s consciousness, does require some kind of effort and as you say “Charan Singh used to say “It is a constant struggle”. Yes. It is a constant struggle with the mind.
About effort. I have heard the words often repeated in Sant Mat about “effortless effort” when doing meditation. This is not easy to do. In my case its an effort to even sit down to do the meditation! But then I believe that if my aim is spiritual progress I do need to direct my efforts to that end.
Your quote: “They say the soul is of the same ESSENCE as God. But it has SEPARATED.”
In Sawan Singh’s quote that I posted, he clearly says that the creation is in the Creator and the Creator in all creation. I think it is the mind which creates the feeling of separation and blocks us from the realisation of being at one with creation.
Your quote: “In non-duality there is no distance and no time between YOU and IT (the illusory goal – God, enlightenment, nirvana). It is not an attainment – no effort is required to ‘get there’ because ‘there’ is not different from ‘here’.”
This is easy to understand intellectually Osho. Its also easy to become tired of putting in effort to control the mind, just to give in and eat meat, drink alcohol, take drugs, indulge in lust, stop meditating and give up the struggle with the mind. Does that bring happiness? Not really because if it did there wouldn’t be this blog for people to vent about Sant Mat.

Mike,
The only reason why disciples follow sant mat is because they believe the master is all powerful and will look after their soul.
No disciple loves the master, even if he claims to. Why? because he has an ulterior motive. He wants the help of the master. His motive is selfish – he believes the master will help him after death – so while living he tries to be worthy.

Hi OSHO,
I have spent these last years studying the
Sumerians, Kabbalists, Palo Mayombe, Santeria,
Zoharists, etc. Before that, I had investigated every obscure area of yoga
and occultism. Been initiaed by scores
of masters. 7 Radhasoami and Yogananda.
Liked pranahuti the best. I.E. Ram Chandra.
Top down energy. None of these type masters exist now. Ramana Maharshi was one.
I have had every experience in the book.
One way or another they open the collective
unconsciousness and typically there are energies produced.
I consider kundalini based yogas such as RS
very bad and absolutely unncessary. Literally
the Demonic energies, which deceive.
Inside our genetics we carry the past of all
our ancestors.
Seems you would call me a non dualist.
I would agree.
It’s now or never.
“At the count of ten I will snap my fingers
and you will awake.”
Sigmund Freud

just me,
“In a sense to ‘get there’, if one is talking about raising one’s consciousness, does require some kind of effort and as you say “Charan Singh used to say “It is a constant struggle”.”
Have you also heard a statement from RSSB Gurus that almost contradicts the above statement? Something like: “the disciple can only make the effort, and that’s his/her duty; if, when and how the effort is rewarded is still in the hands of the Guru.”
….. So, the master/guru/God is all capable but still wants to make the disciple put in some effort of his/her own as well. That is ok because, after all, if we go by the principles of the world we live in, one realizes the value of something only if some sort of price has been paid for that. But, why is it not defined as to how much effort would be sufficient?
IMO, statements like: “It is a constant struggle” do not help much. What’s your take on that?
“In my case its an effort to even sit down to do the meditation! But then I believe that if my aim is spiritual progress I do need to direct my efforts to that end.”
….. 1. For how many years have you been putting an effort do to the meditation?
2. How far have you reached so far?
and finally:
3. Do you really “believe” in “directing your efforts towards spiritual progress”? If yes, what’s your definition of “to believe”? If you really “believe” in Charan Singh’s teachings, don’t you think that you are wasting invaluable time by keep returning to this blog? Remember, Charan Singh used to say , “We need to remain miles away from “manmukhs” (those who listen to and are, therefore, under the control of their minds). I hope you must have realized by now that this blog is FULL of people that come under that category.

“Its also easy to become tired of putting in effort to control the mind, just to give in and eat meat, drink alcohol, take drugs, indulge in lust, stop meditating and give up the struggle with the mind.”
How can you say that everyone who doesn’t believe in Sant Mat or who stopped believing in Sant Mat (in your words, those who “stopped meditating and gave up the struggle with the mind”) will necessarily do things like “eat meat, drink alcohol, take drugs, indulge in lust“? There could be many other much more creative activities for people – who stopped meditating and so on – to get indulged in and make use of the time they would otherwise have spent in meditating for hours, etc. For example: reading and writing this blog:) thereby improving their reading and writing skills.

VVIP (very very important person?)
“Have you also heard a statement from RSSB Gurus that almost contradicts the above statement? Something like: “the disciple can only make the effort, and that’s his/her duty; if, when and how the effort is rewarded is still in the hands of the Guru.”
No I definitely have not heard that. Do you have any proof, or is this your own perception of what was said?
As to your other questions – I have put many years into living the life of a satsangi to the best of my ability. I have no illusions as to how much advancement I have made and as far as I am concerned I am happy to continue into future lives with the same determination to continue evolving on this path. If we have been caught in this matrix since time began (Kal means Time) its ludicrous to imagine we can escape in one little tiny life span.
You say: “We need to remain miles away from “manmukhs” (those who listen to and are, therefore, under the control of their minds). I hope you must have realized by now that this blog is FULL of people that come under that category.”
I have been following this blog for a long time and my life is spent entirely in communication with manmukhs, as you call them. Whats the big deal. There are different ways of following Sant Mat. You don’t have to have a fanatical, religious mindset or go the other extreme of being totally anti Sant Mat.
I said: “Its also easy to become tired of putting in effort to control the mind, just to give in and eat meat, drink alcohol, take drugs, indulge in lust, stop meditating and give up the struggle with the mind.”
You say: How can you say that everyone who doesn’t believe in Sant Mat or who stopped believing in Sant Mat….
Where in the above quote did I say that “EVERYONE who doesn’t believe …. ? Once again, you think in black and white opposites. There are always extremes but there is also the moderate, middle of the road attitude.

Good post VVIP,
Maybe the people who are “THERE”
have decided this world is real
and want to spend their time helping
future generations.
Maybe the worst fate of man is to get old
and look back and have to say to oneself,
“I wish I could have contributed to humanity
when I had the chance. I wasted my life.”

Mike Williams,
You seem like a very wise and informed gentleman, I am no longer an RS as you may know, I have not started to eat meat or drink alcohol, I never will, however, i am very unsure about the consumption of egg. What do you think about eating eggs? You seem like a man who has tremendous regard for humanity and animals, I respect that very much, I want to contribute to humanity.
I wouldn’t want to commit an act that would hurt animals, so I just need you to elucidate this egg issue for me.
Thanks

Hi Gaz,
I see you are better (read between the lines). You will be OK now. It was your destiny to go through this period. The dark night of the soul has ended for you.
I eat lots of cheese. Eggs are non fertile
now days and I like raw eggs in my beer.
I eat no meat of any kind and do not even kill ants, in fact I feed them candy and the birds bread.
I am even careful not to step on ants.
Because if God does not care for ants,
how can He care about humans ?

Gurinder is a grinder and his disciples, defenders, and detractors are his sausages. Shame on all of you.

No chicken needs to be harmed by using its eggs. Chickens lay eggs in response to seasonal light whether a rooster is around to fertilize them or not. If the eggs are not fertile, the hens sit on them anyway, so it is a help to the hens to remove and use the eggs rather than have the eggs accumulate, rot and go to waste and also make the hens look dumb for sitting on them for no reason at all. Help the hens to save face (beak) and use their unfertilized eggs! They don’t mind at all if you do this and they don’t complain.
An egg is not a chicken unless it has been fertilized by a rooster. Then it is a developing chicken. At least the embryo is. Actually the egg is never a chicken under any circumstances although the fertilized embryo needs the yolk as a nutrient source, which also is the reason why eggs are so nutritious for people and other animals to eat.
Most commercial eggs are produced by hens not kept with roosters. There are exceptions to this, so if avoiding eating fertilized eggs is important to you, then you will have to find out if the producer keeps the chickens (hens) with roosters. Hens than run around free range on a farm with roosters present are going to be laying some fertilized eggs.
Eggs are good to eat (unless a person is allergic to them) and are very nutritious. There is no need to fear the cholesterol in the yolks. This fear was fostered by antiquated science from the 50’s and 60’s (long since debunked) and unnecessarily resulted in many egg replacement products, egg white omelets, eggless egg nog, and the like.
Purist vegans avoid even unfertilized eggs because their ideology prohibits them from using any animal products at all. They don’t like animals to be exploited for any purpose.
You can go that route if you like.

Eggs hinder meditations
Sant Mat Versions :
It’s both true
Solopism and dualism
That is because creation is
done very professionally and delightful
Complaints ?
Go to the doer : YOU
Me Personally :
“It takes two to dance the Tango” and I love it
for doubts : google
hinessight+777+vivaldi
777

“Have you also heard a statement from RSSB Gurus that almost contradicts the above statement? Something like: “the disciple can only make the effort, and that’s his/her duty; if, when and how the effort is rewarded is still in the hands of the Guru.”
….These are the words of Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh which can be helpful.
Our duty is to be sincere in our efforts to meditate. When He wants to give His grace to us, He will definitely do so…..A.46 The Master Answers.
We are always concerned with our own Master. He is the Lord to us. We have to look just to our own Master and nobody else. We are not concerned how many Masters have been in this world before, or how many Masters are present, or how many Masters will come after us. We are only concerned with our Master and He is everything to us….A.255 The Master Answers.
…IMO these great Masters always talk in parables, and to understand these parables you need a Living Master, one can never understand their teachings with logic, you have to be a Real Gurmukh to understand their teachings, because what they say they don´t mean and what they mean they never say

” one can never understand their teachings with logic ”
quote Juan
Beautifully spoken.

“Eggs hinder meditations”
–Here is a test. Go find one nice fresh chicken egg since those are the ones most commonly used. Cook it to your taste, plain without added spices, etc. Eat it on an empty stomach. Wait about one hour for the egg to digest. Then meditate. See for if there are any negative effects on meditation.
Please avoid thinking, “Oh, I have eaten an egg and I have done a bad thing and my meditation is being disrupted and I have accumulated bad karma that will result in rebirth. Oh, oh, oh!”. None of that. Just meditate.
See if your meditation is disturbed.
The results of this experiment are due here within two days or you will be suspended and will receive an “F” on the assignment.

Did you know Muhhamad in the Koran
authorises men may screw little boys
and animals ?
I am literally talking sheep here people.
Muslim men may also screw young boys.
(Married women get hung for the same offense)
Did you know Jaimal Singh lived with 3
little tiny girls down the street from
Salig Ram’s (founder of RS) ashram ?
Did you know Salig Ram threw
Jaimal’s ass out of the satsang for this ? Did you know
Salig Ram’s successor, Misra, also threw
Jaimal’s ass out of satsang for the exact
same thing ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POhryDr0Q4g

I meant to say Muhhamad said in the Koran
men could rape little girls and boys.
Girls, as soon as they could stand up.
Don’t believe it ?
Watch Ann Barnhardt burn the Koran
literally and explain in detail what
Muslim men may do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htshvId51UE

Every general knows not to give the boys
eggs during the week ( only on Friday ) and that eggs make somewhat aggressive and more than somewhat horny !
Works fine for contemplation on the first 2 chakras
777

So, 777, you did my test and your result from eating an egg was that you became “somewhat aggressive and more than somewhat horny”?
I wonder if you gave an aggressive and horny person some milk if he would become passive and uninterested in sex?

Tucson,
You don’t understand women. She took
your test and is too bashful to adnit
she has fallen in love with you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dvBjKr2LcY

For you people tuning in late,
Tucson and 777 are having a love fest.
We can all learn a lesson from them,
when in conflict …. make love.
Don’t be caught in the Crossfire
of your uncontrollable passions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F73EcycGCO8

I’m going to have to give more females the “egg test” and prepare for the results by eating more of them myself!
Easy Rider was cool back in the day. Good nostalgia although I think the writers had it a bit wrong. The guys should have been in a VW bus and not on choppers.
I’m not sure what this has to do with Sant Mat going from duality to oneness.

” In the highest stages of development man does not develop a keen sense of omniscience, but a radical and irrevocable understanding of unknowingness. In sum, one realizes that he or she is nothing but a mere bubble in a sea of existence which is infinite in all directions. As such, the bubble simply surrenders its entire being to that Power which is, in truth, living it. ”
http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/faqirchand/faqir1.html
Could this be Something Else ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jid8JEhd98c

I pretty much did not understand the purpose of the video…I could not go beyond 4 min of the first one and wondered what is the meaning of this.
You are obviously someone who does not understand the path, that being true have no right to hold a study on this…
Teachings of the gurus never change…and they never will, as what Swamiji taught, and sawan singhji till today is the truth, and truth does not change…what changes is the way you teach and what works for the audience…sad to see someone stand there and make this comparison when you are someone who have no knowledge on the subject.
It was very kiddish of you to say that earlier teachings talked about existence of sach khand and today guru does not speak of it. OMG – it may be in such a different context. Earlier gurus never said that god is not here or he is ONLY in sach khand, and today they dont say that he is only here and nothing like sach khand….
A request – dont speak and try tarnish something if you dont understand it. This is spiritual science, those who do not go within wont get it – if you are someone who is initiated…go in…and you will pull off your videos – I Promise !