Gurinder Singh: the One is the goal, God without attributes

The first sentence above is most intetesting. The scriptures agree with the statement that God does not refer to a being. Which means God as a being with attributes does not exist.
GSD confirms this. The followers on the other hand are seeking a God with attributes namely Sat Purush or Anami Purush.
The REASON that Gurinder says He is NOT coming at the time of death is because how can THE ONE come to get the NOT ONE. There is ONLY the ONE.
GSD a.k.a. BabaJi has quoted Paltu many times.
There is only the ONE there is no other.
Paltu iko ik hai dusar nahin koi.
Cant be any clearer than that.
As far as I am aware GSD is the only living sant mat guru to make this statement.
He also says that there are no regions to visit and that the whole purpose is to realize the ONE.
So why are the followers so confused.
Its because they cannot let go of the old duality teachings.

They don’t need let go
Both explanations are correct
Each Soul, being Omnipotent makes His own Sach Khandeach nano-nano-second
Isn’t that nice
Why blame Gurinder for explaining a little bit better even than Patanjali plus giving an excellent method every moron can apply
777

“die while living”
It’s a dynamic process , a wave
is stop thoughts and automatically the “die” experience occurs and even better
It’s fantastic if at that time, . . you are busy to Love, have a giant crush on
Shabd, The Words or Him
or all four ° at the same time

I think this Article I posted on my blog is worth a read again, regarding Oneness. Osho Robbins and the Oneness Advaita believers are nothing new, and even if Gurinder Singh is now preaching Oneness, is no reason to reject Sant Mat, where every Vedenta Devotee will remain for millions of Space Time Earth years before ever becoming the One.
http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2015/10/eat-drink-and-make-merry-for-tomorrow.html

Jim,
I did not imply that advaita or oneness is something new. Nor that radha soami should now be rejected because GSD teaches oneness.
Your next statement is about time. Oneness is here and now. No tomorrow no goal no future.
Oneness is not an attainment or something to aim for.
It is a realization and it happens now.
777,
I am not blaming Gurinder. Rather i am saying kudos to him and congratulating him.
As for the method; you cannot be serious
Satsangis spend decades meditating then come to the mic to ask for grace.
The method has no merit.

Babaji has been talking of such for years … its us satsangis, westerners included with 30/40+ years under their belt, who can’t let go of ideas/concepts of the living master coming to greet them at death of the body & etc, and that makes it a bit tricky if trying to grapple with principles of oneness/Self/advaita et al? And – regardless of superficialities – what is incompatible in continuing to practice Sant Mat, doing the simran/japa, in the hope of realisation of I am That, dissolution? When the time is right so to say, as Ramana clarified, mantra/simran (which has taken you so far) will fall away of its own accord and then ‘who’ is there to worry about ‘what next’ anyway?

Osho, I either reach “Oneness” or None ness, or Samadhi of the Hindus, or Nirvana of the Buddhists, which to me, seems like the Void. No Sound, Light, Visuals, only Awareness that “i” still am. But even then, ansolutely no thoughts. I reach that Void almodt every time I meditate. Do you think that Void is Anami Plane of Radhasoami , or the Void below the Causal? If you and Gurinder Singh do not recognisre seoerate Planes, then how do you differentiate between inner sites and sounds? I posted a fsirly recent inner ecpetince hete, on another thread, and never ven received a “Hum Ho” or “Bull S—” from any of the Exers here. I’ll podt it hetevagsin, i cade you missed it, and dince you and Manjit appear to be the resident meditation experts on Brian’s church, other than David Lane who is too shy to return to Brian’s Church and confess his new found fondness of Gurinder Singh dince he vistited the Dera, I’ll post it agsin, amd ask you whete I was during this ecpetience,. o.e. Which Plane? Did I travel to whete Chran is, or fid he travel to find me, whete ever I was? All other responses are weelcomed as well. Reverend Hines?
I was about an hour and a half in to my morning meditation. I had passed thru the Light areas, which I usually do in 20-30 minutes, then passed quickly thru the visual dream scape areas, to rest in the Void, or Samadhi where I usually end up after about an hour in to meditation. That time, with out warning, Charan Singh appeared in full body, looking just about as he did in his later hears. He was clothed the same, and he was standing up right beside me, 6 inches away, so I must have been standing also. Of course, I was shocked, and surprised. He had never once ever spoken audibly to me before, in all the years I had seen him inside. But this time, he looked right at me and said, in his very same accent, …”Brother, your body needs Asprin!” Not a very spiritual message to receive from your Master from Sach Khand, huh? The back ground was, my Doctor had put me on one 81 MG Asprin daily when I was 60 years old, and I had taken it daily for 10 years, but quit taking it at 70 because it is a blood thinner and was making me bleed. I answered Charan, telling him my story why I had quit taking Aspirin. In fact, I had long ago forgotten about Asprin, and never intended to take it again. I told Charan that it made me bleed, but he answered,…”Brother, your body needs Asprin. Just use less if it makes you bleed. ” While he was saying this, he had his left hand on my right shoulder! He was a little shorter than me, as I was looking down at him a couple of inches. I then was ready to unleash a barrage of questions on him, when he vaporized, and disappeared? I loved that he addressed me as ” Brother”, as he always addressed males. So, it appears he has not yet carried all of his Marked Sheep to Sach Khand Yet. When Charan appeared to me last time, I thought it was to tell me my time in this body is almost finished, but it appears the warning was to keep me in the body awhile longer. I had been experiencing chest pains, which subsided as soon as I returned to my Asprin a day. “

Jim
Whatever you see inside is a projection and a creation of your mind as are the inner regions and the form of the master and any communication from him.
You dont see kirpal singh or jesus or mohammad because you have no connection with them.
You saw Charan singh and he gave you a message.
Really its your own mind communicating with you. Charan singh is not interested in whether you live an extra ten years or die today.
The oneness is not the void. It is not an experience. It is not something you work towards and eventually achieve.
It is not a goal.
It is now.
It is here.
You dont do anything to get it. It is already the case.
No meditation. No method. No practice.
It is a realization.
Of what already is , was , and will be.
Namely that the “I” that seeks is unreal.
There is nothing to seek and no seeker.
The oneness is nothing.
A man came to the buddha and was told to get to nothing. After many years he returned and said he had achieved nothing.
“Excellent” said Buddha, “now throw it away”
The man could not.
“The only point in getting nothing is to throw it. If you cannot throw it then it must be something pretending to be nothing”
Enlightenment cannot be a decoration for your ego. You cannot claim it.
The claimer is gone
Jab hum hoti tab tum nahin
Ab tum ho hum nahin – Kabir
While “I” (ego) was you (god) was not.
Now YOU are because “I” am not.
The wave disappears into the ocean. No wave remains. The wave is not aware of the ocean. It does not witness it. The wave is gone because it was unreal and momentary. The ocean remains and is not a collection of waves. It is simply the ocean.
There are no individual waves. There are no individual souls.

Osho,
Before I forget, or get on to another subject, no offense, of course, but I disagree with almost all of your comments above.
You are an obvious convert to Neo- Advaitism , Ramana, Niz, Poonji speculations. I read Vedenta Scriptures years ago, and was never drawn to agree that I was ever, or will ever be God, in totality.
That is why I was drawn to Sant Mat, which allows me to retain my individuality, as a grain of sand on the beach, or desert, rather than merging into an ocean as a wave that was never created as an individual, much less seperate, as a drop seperates.
Charan Singh said souls recognize each other in Sach Khand, and when the flame from an individual candle merges in a larger flame, and appears as one single flame, then is again removed from the larger flame, it retains its individuality.
The spirit of man is the candle of The Lord.
.
These subjects could be argued indefinitly, proving nothing. Also, as my blog Article argues, paraphrasing, we mght as well eat crap and die, if we believe what you just tried to articulate above.
You may live your life trying to belive such nonsense, but as for me, no Thank You. I have Eternity planned ahead of the Higher Soul who has projected this life as Jim.
Cheers,
Jim

You cannot separate oneness from duality. Osho you theorize alot but i appreciate your effort but you are still far away of realizing of what you copy paste from other books or mystics.

Jim Wow
So much to do, . . so much to love , so much to feel
A la fibonacci . . . . It never stops, . . . it increases forever
God is not a fool to create a Soul, . . . next destroy . . .
Time and frequency
It takes TWO to dance the Tango
777

“I disagree with almost all of your comments” – Jim
Thank you for disagreeing.
If you agree I get no medals. If you disagree – no medals get taken away.
Everyone agrees or disagrees or doesn’t have the faintest idea. None of it matters.
We are all using our minds to figure things out.
And the mind we are using is conditioned – so we see only what we want to see.
So if I agree – it just means my conditioning is similar.
The truth does not require anyone to agree or disagree. Truth remains regardless of agreement or disagreement.
Agreement is about belief but truth does not require belief. Belief is a barrier.
Realization is about DISCOVERY of truth. It’s not an opinion or a conclusion.
There is an interesting video by Osho which goes into this in great detail.
Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ7KhWJu0vk

“Charan Singh said souls recognize each other in Sach Khand, and when the flame from an individual candle merges in a larger flame, and appears as one single flame, then is again removed from the larger flame, it retains its individuality” – Jim
This is impossible if ONENESS is the case. That is the whole meaning of ONENESS.
Otherwise it would be called MANY-NESS.
ONENESS means there is ONLY ONE and that the many is an illusion.
And it’s not an opinion or a belief. It is a realization.
It is simply what is.
What is – IS; and what isn’t ISN’T – your opinion or mine does not change it.
Humans are experts at delusion and love to be right – so their whole life is about being right. They care very little about truth.
“The truth shall set you free – but first it shall piss you off” – Gloria Steinem
The reason it first pisses you off is because you have to admit you were wrong.

Quote osho….The reason it first pisses you off is because you have to admit you were wrong….
…..yeah right…osho. …book learned book learned

I have come to a recent conclusion, that our Astral bodies have parallel lives of their own , that are projected from our Higher Soul Self, which is the higher area of our Causal bodies, where all past life memories are stored. MANY Astral past life shells still exist the the Astral Plane, and are what we see and encounter during dreaming, lucid dreams, and even pass thru in Meditation after seeing the light, and hearing the sound. Our physical bodies have no memories, most of the time, about projections of our Astral bodies. But the Astral body remains attached to our physicsl body by the Dilver Cord, or Perispirit, which I have coined as the “Condom of the soul.” According to David Lane’s Guru, Faqir Chand, he claims he never went any where, or projected, yet mamy of his followers SAW his projected Astral body, as well as HEARD him speek to them, warning them of possible empending dangers, as Charan Singh’s Astral body did to me, in full clear view, with even his Accent, plus his touch. Osho, you might do a little study on Theosophy instread of buying in to Advaita nonsense, thinking you are me, and I am you, and we are God, but most of us Godlings are really hoping we never loose our individuality, permanently, including YOU! Even pigs rolling in their own poop think they are god and wouldn’t change a thing in their lives, unless they knew they were quewed for Bacon.

You cannot separate oneness from duality – Penny Lee Joint Locker
It’s a nonsense statement unless you clarify what you mean.
Oneness means there is only the ONE. That is the reality. There cannot be individuality within the oneness. Oneness means there is no individual soul. It means there is only the ocean and waves are just a passing phenomena that have no basis in reality.
To say that the waves will continue to exist forever within the ocean is equivalent to the notion that souls retain their individuality.
If that was the case – then that is the opposite of the ONENESS view. They cannot both be true.
To say they are both true – you need to explain the context in which you are making the statement.
I haven’t cut and pasted anything in any of my comments. If i do – I quote the source. So not sure what you have an issue about. Why the attitude? If you have a constructive argument to make – make it.
That was a quote from Gloria Steinem – and you wrote “book learned” – WTF are you talking about? You make no sense.
Jim is giving his viewpoint – and i am doing the same. But you make pointless statements

Jim Sutherland,
Faqir Chand was saying that he does not have the power that is associated with the guru, namely that he is all knowing and comes in his radiant (astral) form to help the disciples and especially at death.
He further said that no such power exists and that the gurus are just pretending.
So it appears now that Gurinder has taken a stand to at least say he is not coming at death. At the same time – is is also saying there is only the ONE. He is not saying that souls retain their individuality.
As a matter of interest, can you tell me where Charan Singh states that souls retain their individuality in Sach Khand. I am not sure what his position was on this.
The traditional sant mat teachings are not clear as they talk of the wave merging with ocean.
A wave does not retain individuality simply because the wave was not a real entity in the first place and could not be separated from the ocean. It has no existence separate from the ocean.

Osho it is a nonsense statemen cause you are booklearned you are just repeating quotes from books….and thus you dont understand. Even if i explain you will still have hard time to diggest.

Penny Lee joint locker,
you seem to know a lot about me considering you have never met me and don’t know anything about my past or background.
You even know I am quoting from books and you are so wise that you even know I will not understand what you could explain to me.
Or maybe, you’re just writing nonsense because you have nothing better to do. You still haven’t explained or justified any statement you have made. Says a lot about you.

..quote osho…Or maybe, you’re just writing nonsense because you have nothing better to do…
…yes you are right

I agree with all your comment about me osho.

Osho, I have viewed most of your Sant Mat 1,ll, lll Videos, comparing to how Gurinder Singh presently teaches. I enjoyed all of them, and thought they were really well presented, in spite of my not agreeing at all with Advaita Vendenta Philosophy. Also, as for discussing what Gurinder Singh teaches , I really know very little to nothing, since I only saw him once in 1992 or 93 when he was a struggling new Successor of RSSB trying to do his Job. You surely know more about him than I do, as many posters here do. But I hear many, many great recent reports about how Gurinder Singh has matured in to his Role as Successor of RSSB, and many of his Initiates have seen his Radiant Form inside, during meditation. I believe these reports, and have a different belief system than you do about how these manifestations happen, or where they come from. I really find it almost hilarious that you imagine Charan Singh’s Radiant Form manifesting to me is full visual view, and audably speakinig to me in his own accent that I, as an American English speaking person could never duplicate, and Charan was shape shifting from my own Self, who is God! I hope you don’t close your mind to other possibilities such as Sant Mat Theology just might really have different Planes and Spiritual/material bodies layered with each other, having different experiences, all at the same time, who are being projected from their Higher Soul Selves. Until Dr. David Lane has the Cajunes to show up here ansd confess that his recent week at the Dera either convinced him that Gurinder Dingh is the Real Deal, i.e. A real Perfect Living Master, or,….he is just an older struggling Guru man playing the role of continuing to deceive the gullable, as you and most of the other Exers who post here, including Brian Hines, then these pissing contests will continue as entertainment for the Atheists. Cheers, Jim

To Osho,……in case you have never scanned my blog, I also have been around the block a few times, and believe I am as qualified to present my views to be tsken seriously than any others here, who post. But my views are based on personal, experiences, not experiences taken from books parroted from others books. Before I was initiated by Thakar Singh, ( as you said you were, and again, we have much different views of him ) Not only was a Seminary Grad. with earned B.Min.,M.Min., Th.D., and a Pastor, but I spent TEN solid years studying and with the Rosicrucians ( AMORC ) and was inititiated in to all of the Degrees they offer, including Traditional Martialists. I consider my self a duly qualified Mystic after going through all of the following Degrees, in addtion to meditating using the Sawan Singh Technique since 1988, and being initiated by Charan Dingh in 1990. Osho,….please read thru the following Link on my blog and follow what I studied and was qualified to be initiatred in to every Degree they offer, and still tell me if you consider me one of the gullable Neophites that is not yet awakened to reaizing I am God of the Advaitist Ramana Niz Mooji types! Be honest, Brother!
http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/2006/08/rosicrucian-amorc-degree-program.html

Dear Osho,
I am/was a big fan of Osho (Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh), and I can appreciate you citing him in your comments. But, what’s up with adopting his name?
Did you meet and spend time with The Osho?
I almost know for a fact that if such a Master such as Bhagwan Rajneesh was around today, I would have problems appreciating him/her style and methods, it is easy to enjoy him as I do now… from a convenient distance..
I have not seen or been with The Osho, but have enjoyed visits to the now’ Osho International Meditation Resort in Pune, and loved the vibes there…
Also, got a new name —Tejo, which I adopted from Sanyas celebration during one of my visits to the resort…
But now, I have recently adopted a Tibetan Buddhist name due to recent associations with friends of that background.
Anyway, just wondering about your background and how you got the name?
Thanx,
Pema Tej

Hi Jim,
I will reply in detail later – but here is my initial brief response.
First of all, I don’t doubt you are genuine and sincere. You are making valid points and while we don’t have to agree with each other – we can at least have an exchange of views without getting silly.
(unlike Penny – who just says “I agree” or “I disagree” which is pointless because I don’t care if anyone agrees or disagrees – but an intelligent person will put forward an argument – rather than just make unfounded statements like “You are book-read” and when asked to clarify – just avoids the question)
Clearly you meditate and have inner experiences which puts you is a different league from the masses of believers who just believe the dogma and never experience it.
Sant mat says – “do the meditation and see for yourself – then decide.”
Which you have clearly done.
I am sorry if I came over flippant when I wrote that Charan Singh was just a projection from your own mind. I didn’t mean it in a flippant manner.
When a person has a dream – it’s totally convincing. It really seems like it is really happening at the time. You can even cry and laugh and go through all the emotions because in that moment it is real.
When you awaken from the dream – then you say “It was just a dream”.
You also say that it was not real. Of course it was a real dream.
But what you mean is that it did not happen in the material physical world.
It did happen in the dream world or in the astral world.
However, the dream world is made up of our desires and a projection of our mind. Our mind creates the dream even though it seems real at the time.
The voices, the visions, the feelings – everything is realistic.
For example Charan Singh may appear in your dream. His voice, his personality – everything.
So you are not consciously creating this – but your mind is.
Charan Singh the person isn’t really coming into your dream consciously.
It’s your creation.
That is what I meant. Not that you consciously projected that image of Charan Singh and duplicated his accent.
Now one more point – I am not denying the existence of astral planes or spiritual regions. Just as there is a physical universe – there is an astral.
However, the question is “What is real?”
Why do we say the dream was unreal? because it ended. It was just for the moment.
So everything that is just for the moment is unreal in the ultimate meaning of the word.
The sikh scriptures have a word called “SAT” or “Truth”
SAT means that which WAS, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE – i.e. beyond time and changeless. That is what the scriptures define as REAL or SAT or TRUTH.
So while the physical universe exists and the astral exists – they are not ultimate REALITY or truth.
They are just for the moment. as is all phenomena.
That means YOU, ME, and all we experience. Everything is MAYA or illusion. It appears real in THIS moment – but it is within TIME and SPACE.
So then what is REAL? only that which is BEYOND time and space. Which can only be “nothing” “ONENESS” and “NO-Attributes”.
Hence that is the ultimate reality.
It means there is nothing else but that.
However, You and I still experience this world of MAYA and inner regions. It’s just that it is not ultimately REAL.
It is relatively real – in this moment only.
Ultimately there CANNOT be a separate self because everything that is separate eventually disappears (dies).
This is nothing mystical – just a simple observation and it doesn’t require belief as it’s not a theory.
So I don’t deny the experiences you have – they are real in the moment.
I am just saying that the experiencer is unreal. YOU are unreal even though you appear to be real in THIS moment.
in Zen, a disciple goes to the master and has a candle with a flame. “Where did the flame come from?” he asks. The master blows it out and asks “Where has it gone?” “Where it has gone is where it came from”
Now, what the fuck does that mean?
It means there is no flame. The flame is there until the master blows it out. Now it’s not there. It came from nowhere and it’s gone back to nowhere.
Today I am here. One day soon this body will die. Then I am gone.
Who is the “I” what was here? making all kinds of claims and seeking eternity?
There wasn’t one. And if there is no YOU then you cannot find anything after death of the body.
The body was born and the body died.
That is why Bulleh Shah says “Bullah, I will not die, let someone else die (the body”)”
He doesn’t mean that he is eternal – he means there is no separate self hence nobody to die because nobody was born.
The ego was the illusion that “I am” when in fact it is not.
“I AM ” is an illusion because there is no “I”
Hence nobody to get enlightened to to arrive in Sach Khand.
So Jim, I am no denying the experiences or the regions
I am just saying they are not real.
That’s all – just a small point.

You get quickly offended Osho.

Spino,
I am not quickly offended – but I call a spade a spade.
Anyone who makes unfounded remarks – I simply call them on their bullshit.
I invited Penny to explain the “book-learned, book-learned” comment.
Jim Sutherland does not agree with me – but puts forward the basis for his belief, and is open to listen to a different viewpoint.
I am also open to listen to his viewpoint. We can have a rational exchange of ideas.
Penny Lee on the other hand writes unfounded nonsense like this:
“Quote osho….The reason it first pisses you off is because you have to admit you were wrong….
…..yeah right…osho. …book learned book learned”
This posting is nonsense and unfounded. When asked the basis of making the statement – no answer is forthcoming except a comment like
“Even if i explain you will still have hard time to digest.”

Book learned means you are quoting others experience like Kabir or Shah and not having your own.
Osho do you see oneness land in your inner world?

Osho, thanks tor the detailed Advaita Philosopy lesson. I have heard and read it all before, of course, but you make good clear points. I can not deny that in time and space, all is Maya, and is why Buddhist Philosophy of ” Impermanence” applies to every thing in the material realms, including us, as unreal. I Can agree with that teaching, because I witness it each day, as I see my friends and relatives die. But in order to live in the moment, we all must have come from some where, to be here now, on the way to some where. I can look at my photos from childhood to present, and know Jim has changed body suits about every seven earth years. In the massive Rosicrucian Degree studies, in order to accurately give the answers to pass the written tests of each Degree before being accepted for Initiation in each Degree, we had to do each experiment, and test the Astral Realms in order to find the answers and report back. Of course, every Rosicrucian is under a promise to keep the Vows of confidentiality. But I had Many, Many, Astral projections while doing the exercises, so the Sant Mat experiences were not a surprise to me, when ever they happened. I think you are far too intellectual to be trapped in the belief that it all ends this time around, Osho. Next round, you will have a different body, even possible gender change, and hopefull, be back in a human body. I can not possibly upload my 75 years of beliefs, and experiences here, but I suggest you give some open minded thought to a Chain of Command, starting with God, called by many Names, including Radhasoami Anami Perush, and work on down, from pure Spirit soul, with diminishing spirit in each lower plane as the individual CREATED soul, which DID have a beginning, but now, has no end, because of being secuced by mind, as you stated. But using the Sant amat Tech. Provides the Key of of knowledge, the Key to unlock the Prison. I am a Bible Scholar and could quote the Bible to bore the Exers here enough to unsubscribe from Brian’s Church. But the Bible and Adi Granth will both back up Sat Mat in what present Sant Mat Teachers teach, to what Jesus ( if a historical Jesus really existed. Doesn’t matter, as Teaching remains). In the Chain of Command, the God of this world, i.e. Material impermanence Maya, seduces knotted soul/minds to remain in every Plane that still retains any trace of materiality. Individual Higher Soul Selves, retain every past life of each created soul , including Astral, Causal, Super Causal, etc. until the Wheel of 84, i.e. Charausi is vacated by the individual soul. If you don’t want to exist, or believe you never existed and are only a present illusion, no problem. But as for me, I have Eternal Plans and other Planets to be born, live, and die on, until I have all the answers to the mysteries we argue about. Charan Singh is still alive, in his Astral body for certain, which appeard to me, and he has his Casaul body with a changed , less dense form at the same time, which are all projections from his Higher Soul Self, which is projected from Logos, a Neuron in the Mind of God. I suggest you Google Allan Chronshaw, and visit his Web sites to learn about Higher Soul Selves. You could sharpen your debating skills more by debating him than me. He rejects most of the Bible, Sant Mat, Reincarnation, but believes,………do find out for your self. He is complicating!

For Osho, and any intellectual Exer looking for a good debate. Go prepared to Rumble!
http://cronshaw.us

Yes Advaita is correct as far as the 3 lowest ( will not say regions here :-)) concerns
By ascese or perfect jnana one can unify with Brahma/Yahweh and dive in It ( the 1/7 time_space_proctor 1/7)
But better wait for next golden yuga again via incarn cause it’s do-able then.
Same for 2/7 but that will take some more time
1/7 was only several big bang periods but now you must wait untill 1/7 (astral) evaporates
So ,. . one can together with Brahma/Yaweh seek access in Para Brahm/Jehovih and have hope . . .
Next repeat that 5 times more up to 7/7 5 ( Time_space_consciousnes 5/7 = called Sach Khand )
but there you stumble because the fact that you did it on your Own has its Lucifer effect , a nano-nano _to the power of Zillion -nano gram of proud will jump you completely out of sight
With all this I can reasonably declare that the RSSB method is a great lovely sweet short cut
You just unify by love with somebody who is already in that 7/7 sphere and enjoy !
Arriving at the “top” you will never have an idea of “I did That”
Holy Masters trick the proctors of these “7 Heavens” – they are not even aware that HE has a bunch of lovers in his pocket
BTW : while passing , they throw themselves in the dust for not burning alive
Like Jesus what are the old paraphrased mystic tales from Nanak, Tulsi and Sawan nice
for explaining quantum physics
777
Don’t give Up ( Phil Collins ) – it’so sugar sweet !

Penny
Just because I sometimes quote from Kabir or anyone else does not mean I am book-learned. It just means I am giving a reference point.
The speakers in RSSB are what I call book learned. They are simply giving out teachings.
I used to be a speaker for RS back in the day and even then I was not giving out theory but pointing to being your own authority.
RS dont like that. They had a meeting with me in which they said that they want parrots
to simply give out the teachings.
I told them I was not a parrot and walked away from giving talks.
I am the last person you can call book-learned
here’s a link to a live satsang I did in the Bham centre back in 2002
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTQiZb_8zs
now does that sound like a book-learned person?
I speak from experience – Advaita is also not about repeating what the gurus say – but to go through the fire – which is what leads to realization – not just repeating words

Hi all,
I really like the way Babaji Gurinder teaches now.
It becomes more logic to me.
So..I tell you ,I am happy with this.
The Oness..
All in One…
One light many lamps..
One voice,many songs..
Differences in Oness.
s*

To Osho: I listened to your “Satsang” above, and think you are a an interesting Preacher. Sant Mat has lost a good Preacher, if you have really found a way to sever Charan’s Bulldozer Chain. I recall hearing Charan say there is only Satsang when the Master is present, giving Satsang. Other wise, there are only ” Meeting” when the Master is not there. So you were a Preacher giving a talk at a Meeting. I am sorry “They” took away your Speaking License. I really know how you feel, because I had a similar experience in 1983. I had graduated from the Berean Bible School, that was a requirement to be Licensed to Preach, in the Assemblies of God Churches, which is the largest Penticostal Fellowship of Christian Churches on earth. After I was Licensed, I became Pastor of the Assembies of God Church in my California City, and was preaching on Sundays and Wed. Nights, building my Congregation. Once a year, in order to have our Licenses renewed, we had to answer questions on a ” Boiler Plate” type Fundamentslist Dogma” Organization Questioneer. I have never been a lying hypocrite, and always speak from my heart. I will always tell you what I think, not what you want to hear. So, I answered one of their Dogma questions that they didn’t like. A couple of weeks later, I received a letter from the Headquarters President asking for my Resignation from the Assemblies, and thanking me for my Services!! At first, I was shocked, then very sad, then very bitter, then, reality set in. My entire life plan had changed because I couldn’t lie on a questioner! So, I then entered a large Interdenominational Seminary, enrolled in their Degree Program, and was Ordained to preach in all their Churches. I lost my bittereness against the Assemblies of God Organization, and chalked it off as a Plan of god, or detour, for my life. After I graduated Seminary earning my Th.D. Degree, I had so much book leaning, that I lost interest in being a Preacher at all, and resigned from all Organizstions and returned my Ordination Credentials. I then was accepted by AMORC and worked thru their entire Degree Program, before discovering Sant Mat by reading The Path of the Masters. I immediately was hooked. I almost felt I had written that book, it was so familiar to me!! Then was initiated by Thakar who PUT me on the Path, until Charan accepted me for Initiation and has KEPT me on the Path, more or less, to present. But I am not a Sant Mat Fundamentailst, nor Hypocrite. I still say what I feel, and I most likely would never be accepted to be a Speaker for RSSB either, as I am much too eclectic, as you seem to be. So, why be bitter, and an enemy against RSSB or Sant Mat Masters? Just speak your own mind, and be happy, not bitter. And if you have no soul, never existed, are impermanent, and have no future, what difference does any of it make? But if nothing is real, why even eat, drink, or do any thing at all, if its all Maya? Unless you decide to enjoy Maya, you may as eat crap and die today, and put your self out of misery! ISIS is recruiting Suicide Bombers. I am sure they would be happy to jump start your Oneness! 😇😍💤💤💤💤

Osho,
Since you were kicked out, is that why you became an exer? You never complained while you were enjoying all the attention and stardom, but soon as learnt that you cannot pose like a Guru yourself, your Ego was hurt, Big Time! Since you have become a cribber! None of your arguments have any weight. You say Sant Mat is changing, Sant Mat has remained the same for ages, only the way of expressing the teachings change from different times. The Satguru of the time puts forward the perspective and aspects which are appealing for the seekers of the time. Otherwise why is there even a need for a living master if they are to repeat whatever has already been said like puppets? Oh self-proclaimed authority on Sant Mat, you say as per the present teachings there is no SachKhand, there is only One? Have you ever thought about, One and many co-existing? Can One be conscious of its existence without the many? Can many be conscious of their existence without the One? If someone comes and says there is but One United States, does that mean there is no New York, California or Washington? Oh inventor of Sant Mat 2.0, you go on to crib about the statement – There is no Journey. A guy in New York went to sleep and travelled to India in his dream. For understanding, imagine another guy coming to dream to wake him so he realizes, he is in New York not in India. The guy says you will have to undertake a journey and travel back to New York, gives him the travel instructions, knowing that once he wakes up he will realize there was no India, he always in New York. Now, compare this with yet another guy who comes into his dream with the same objective of waking the dreamer up. This guy tells him there is no journey, but still gives him the travel instructions, why does he say there is no journey? Because that is what the experience will be when dreamer wakes up, there was no journey. So did the teachings change or mode of throwing the bait change? Oh Mahapurush, you say the old teachings were of duality and the new Guru introduced the teachings of Oneness. Let me present a Sawan Singh quote before you, My Lord, so you remember the traditional teaching, to be able to understand this, take off the ear phones which keep playing the new age pop music to you. Sawan Singh said Spiritual Gems – After the physical body and the astral form are cast off there is no chance for individuality because there is none left but the only Being.
There is still time left for you to repent and come back to the fold. I feel pity on new comers who fall in trap of people like yourself.

To Osho and other Exers interested in Science and Physics, Richard Ruquest, Ph.D. Is a Physicist I met on a Theosophist site, and led to Sant Mat. He was initiated by Dr. Ishwar Puri in Jan. 2015. To any Exers desiring to hone their Sant Mat rebuttal skills, Dr. Ruquist has started his own Facebook site to discuss his T-Duality String Theory Conjectures that support Sant Mat as Ishwar Puri teaches. I was invited by Richard, so am lurking only, as I am not a Scientist. I see David Lane is there, who is most likely gathering further knowledge for his books.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/261776920960977/

Hi Jim,
nobody took away my speaker licence. I handed them my resignation because I was not prepared to be a “parrot” as they put it.
I was not bitter, because it was just light entertainment for me. I had no desire to continue.
I purposely did very few satsangs even though I was an authorised national speaker for over 5 years. I just did satsangs occasionally because I enjoyed it.
Once they started creating rules on how many satsangs must be done each year – I was ready to hand in my resignation anyway. I was never interested in doing the ‘satsang seva’ as a weekly chore. What for? I only did what I enjoyed, and occasional satsangs were enjoyable. Maybe once every three months. More than that was too much effort.
I wasn’t in the slightest bothered about resigning.
I have nothing against RSSB or Gurinder Singh. In fact – I am impressed by the fact that he has come out and said things which to date no other sant mat master has done.
I have had some detailed discussions with him on the microphone.
He is clearly giving the new message that there is only ONE. There is no other. However because the followers are deeply immersed in the original duality teachings, they find it hard to understand what he is actually saying. Most of the followers believe it is a motivational statement made to make them meditate.

Jeff – I wasn’t kicked out – I resigned. It’s a huge difference and my ego was not hurt – because I was happy to resign.
“Since you were kicked out, is that why you became an exer? You never complained while you were enjoying all the attention and stardom, but soon as learnt that you cannot pose like a Guru yourself, your Ego was hurt, Big Time! Since you have become a cribber! None of your arguments have any weight. “ – Jeff
What attention and stardom? I purposely did very few satsangs. I did around maybe 15 satsangs over a five year period. When they changed the rules and said speakers have to do a certain minimum – I wasn’t interested anyway.
“You say Sant Mat is changing, Sant Mat has remained the same for ages, only the way of expressing the teachings change from different times. The Satguru of the time puts forward the perspective and aspects which are appealing for the seekers of the time. Otherwise why is there even a need for a living master if they are to repeat whatever has already been said like puppets?”
Jeff – you can’t see the obvious.
Sawan said “I just wave from a distance to the guru who will not come at my death to take my soul”
Gurinder says “I will not come at your death”
Reconcile that and tell me it is the same teaching! And that nothing has changed and it’s just a different way of saying the same thing!
No previous master in RSSB has ever said that there are no regions. Gurinder has said so. No other master has said “burn the books.” Gurinder has.
No previous RSSB guru has said it’s just about realising the ONENESS and that there is no sat purush and no Sach khand – they are just a way of explaining.
Only Gurinder has made those statements. If they were always part of the teaching, why were they kept secret?
“ Oh self-proclaimed authority on Sant Mat, you say as per the present teachings there is no SachKhand, there is only One? Have you ever thought about, One and many co-existing? Can One be conscious of its existence without the many? Can many be conscious of their existence without the One?”
Jeff – you don’t understand the obvious. Of course they co-exist. Of course there is the world around me right now. That is obvious.
However, “There is only the ONE” means that only the ONE is REAL and TRUE – all else is an illusion. It doesn’t mean they don’t appear to exist in this monent.
“Oh inventor of Sant Mat 2.0, you go on to crib about the statement – There is no Journey.”
There is not journey because the ONE does not go anywhere and there is nowhere to go anyway. Because there is no time and space. Time and Space and both part of Maya (illusion). Everything within TIME and SPACE is unreal and an illusion.
Why is that so hard to understand?
“Oh Mahapurush, you say the old teachings were of duality and the new Guru introduced the teachings of Oneness. Let me present a Sawan Singh quote before you; Sawan Singh said Spiritual Gems – After the physical body and the astral form are cast off there is no chance for individuality because there is none left but the only Being.”
Really? Then why are there regions beyond the astral? How can there be a Sach Khand and an Anami purush if there is no individuality?
Do you even understand what “No individuality” means?
It means that NOBODY can go to Sach Khand and there cannot be a Sach Khand because there is only ONE! There cannot be any PLACE or SOUL to visit Sach Khand.
ONENESS means there is nothing. And nothing means Nothing – sweet F.A.
ZERO – Zilch – absence al all things, entities, regions, thoughts, being, etc.
“There is still time left for you to repent and come back to the fold. I feel pity on new comers who fall in trap of people like yourself.”
Thanks for the offer Jeff – but NO THANKS. Good try though.
And don’t feel pity for anyone. No newcomer will fall into my trap.
Because there is no trap. Just the truth.

I’m so over the ego bashing that satsangis are into. So amazed that Gurinder has actually changed the teachings. Why don’t the newcomers read the books, surely they will see the inconsistencies with the original teachings and what Gurinder is now preaching. So gullible. Such a fake path.
If we just merge back into oneness why bother with the four principles. May as well eat, drink and be merry. No goal or purpose in life. No karma, no destiny, no evolving into something more. Just sheeple like everyone else. Just eat, live, die.

Osho,
O perplexed One! Let me try to explain what your closed mind has not been able to grasp, but be able to catch it you will have to open it up buddy, shun your Ego for a bit. The previous masters have said the radiant form of the master comes at the time of death. The present Great One has differentiated between the outer form and the inner form. The outer physical form has limitations. No past master ever said physical form of the master will come at the time of death. The present Great One clarified so no misunderstandings remain and initiates attach themselves with the Shabd Form which indeed has the power to take back the soul, not the physical. You have failed to understand both past and present teachings, as you say they are different. You are yourself confused and you try to confuse others also. You say the present Great One has said, there are no regions. Oh toddler on the subjects of philosophy, the present Great One has also said loose to win. Now will you hop and shout at the peak of your voice and say the past teachings were to win and the present teacher having changed them is asking us to loose. Wake up from your slumber, if you will? These are the contradictions in life that you have think deep about. Listen O Self Proclaimed authority on Sant Mat, you say the present great one has said burn the books and no past one ever said that. You have again failed to understand the essence, or rather you understood very well, but you still have bitterness left within you. Have you ever thought about if he literally meant to burn the books, then why does he keeps on publishing more and more books? Think about it, even if your Ego cries, not to worry! Sar Bachan says “Priests read and recite the scriptures, they too waste their energies in learning and preaching.” What is the point there Masters are trying to make? Knowledge cannot replace experiences. You try and present a part of Master’s statement to try and trap the innocent seekers in your web? O book learned One, Sar Bachan says trees in Satlok are laden with rubys and diamonds, now if someone says there are no trees, rubys or diamonds in Satlok, your puny little mind will say teachings have been changed. None of your arguments make any sense, if you think by these arguments you can bring innocent seekers under your influence, it’s not going to work. You act like a toddler who learns some alphabets on first day of school and tries to teach his Ph.D parents. You cannot fool anyone by presenting sub-statements to for your malicious motives.

Reply to Jeff’s message about my closed mind:
“O perplexed One! Let me try to explain what your closed mind has not been able to grasp, but be able to catch it you will have to open it up buddy, shun your Ego for a bit. The previous masters have said the radiant form of the master comes at the time of death. The present Great One has differentiated between the outer form and the inner form. The outer physical form has limitations. No past master ever said physical form of the master will come at the time of death. The present Great One clarified so no misunderstandings remain and initiates attach themselves with the Shabd Form which indeed has the power to take back the soul, not the physical.” – Jeff
What utter nonsense! You say that the present master has differentiated between the inner and outer form of the master. Well – so have the past masters.
What a pointless statement to make! What is there for me to grasp in your answer? No previous master has ever said or implied that the physical form of the master will knock on the door 10 minutes before you die. You say the Great One (Gurinder) clarified this.
Clarified what? That the physical master is not coming at death? You think that needs clarifying? You really think the present sangat is that stupid that they are waiting for a knock on the door?
I am pretty sure that the current sangat never thought that the physical master appears at the time of death. That does not need clarification. I am sure Gurinder is not on stage clarifying the obvious! He is not talking to two year olds, that he needs to say “Listen guys, I just want to make it clear. I will not come in my physical body to save you at death. It is going to be the Radiant form that will collect your soul. Got it guys? I just wanted to clarify so nobody misunderstands.”
Jeff – please tell me you are not serious and that maybe you were on drugs when you wrote that, or half asleep!
Or are you saying that Gurinder is really trying to clarify that the physical form is not coming at death?
Obviously Gurinder’s PHYSICAL form is not coming at death – that does not need clarification. And I am sure that Charan’s initiates did not think that Charan Singh is coming in his physical body to collect them. Especially as his physical body has been burnt!
That does not need clarification, so clearly that is not what Gurinder means when he says “I am not coming at the time of death” But somehow you have taken his statement to mean that he is not coming physically. That is NOT what he means. He means he is not coming in the RADIANT or INNER form!
Even you must surely understand that.
He has HIMSELF explained what he means so people cannot misunderstand him. He says, “please try to understand what I am saying. If there is ONLY THE ONE, how can “I” come to get “YOU”? And WHERE will I take you?”
Jeff – nobody except you thought he was saying he is not coming in his physical. That is not something that needs clarification.
“You have failed to understand both past and present teachings, as you say they are different. You are yourself confused and you try to confuse others also.” – Jeff
They ARE different.
Let me spell it out:
(1) Gurinder is saying “No master is coming at the time of death in his RADIANT FORM”
(2) Previous masters said: “The master IS coming in his RADIANT FORM”
Clearly (1) is different from (2)
You just don’t want to face the obvious, so you have twisted his statement to mean
“I am NOT coming in my PHYSICAL body, but I will of course still come in my RADIANT FORM – just wanted to clarify that guys. Thanks for coming to satsang. See you next time guys”
Jeff – are you really serious? Is that what you think he meant?
You finish off by writing
“None of your arguments make any sense, if you think by these arguments you can bring innocent seekers under your influence, it’s not going to work. You act like a toddler who learns some alphabets on first day of school and tries to teach his Ph.D parents. You cannot fool anyone by presenting sub-statements to for your malicious motives.”
Jeff – please show me where my arguments don’t make sense. And how yours do!
You really want to stick to your point of view that Gurinder was talking about the PHYSICAL FORM when he said “I am not coming at the time of death”?
I am afraid it’s YOU who is trying to mislead intelligent people – not me.
And what exactly do you think my malicious motives are?
Wake up Jeff – as you are clearly on drugs or sound asleep!

Reply to Jeff’s message – PART 2
carrying on, Jeff wrote:
You say the present Great One has said, there are no regions. Oh toddler on the subjects of philosophy, the present Great One has also said loose to win. Now will you hop and shout at the peak of your voice and say the past teachings were to win and the present teacher having changed them is asking us to loose. Wake up from your slumber, if you will? These are the contradictions in life that you have think deep about.” – JEFF
Jeff – Gurinder himself has clarified what he means. He has said that they are levels of consciousness – not regions. And by the way it’s “LOSE to win” not “LOOSE to win”
I think it’s clear from the part 1 reply above who needs to wake up.
Carrying on ……
“Listen O Self Proclaimed authority on Sant Mat, you say the present great one has said burn the books and no past one ever said that. You have again failed to understand the essence, or rather you understood very well, but you still have bitterness left within you. Have you ever thought about if he literally meant to burn the books, then why does he keeps on publishing more and more books? Think about it, even if your Ego cries, not to worry! Sar Bachan says “Priests read and recite the scriptures, they too waste their energies in learning and preaching.” What is the point there Masters are trying to make? Knowledge cannot replace experiences. – JEFF
Now you are adding in your own bits. Show me where I said that no past master ever said that. I didn’t make that statement.
And I have no bitterness.
Of course he doesn’t mean literally burn the books.
What you mean that some of the followers will literally start a fire in haynes park and pile all the RSSB books onto it?
Clearly not.
He is saying, pure and simple, that the RSSB books are wrong where they describe the regions as places where the soul goes to.
He has clearly said that the goal is NIRGUN means there is NOTHING THERE.
It’s you Jeff that does not understand and is twisting his meaning.
And you claim to be his disciple?

Sar Bachan says “Priests read and recite the scriptures, they too waste their energies in learning and preaching.” What is the point these Masters are trying to make? Knowledge cannot replace experiences. – JEFF
Point taken. Preaching to others is pointless – first get your own experience and then teach from that. Otherwise you are a hypocrite. Agreed?
So – lets get this clear – RSSB is saying – “don’t preach what you have not experienced.”
Charan Singh was fond of quoting from the gurbani “parh parh pandir aurah samjai – aphi ghar jal ki khabar na pai”
means “reading scriptures the pandit explains to others while his own house is burning and he is unaware”
So it’s clear – do not give theoretical talks that are not from your own inner experiences. Agreed?
Okay – so then – why does RSSB allow and encourage those who have NO EXPERIENCE to give out the theoretical teachings like parrots? And they call it SATSANG.
Is that not hypocrisy?
On the one hand they say that theoretical teachings should not be given. The pundit is teachings others while his own house burns.
Yet the weekly satsangs are conducted by people who have no inner experience.
It is not a criteria that the speaker must have practical experience of the path. When they say they want parrots – that is what they mean.
They want someone to go on stage and give out the theory.
And this is not a religion? And this is not hypocrisy?
That person is speaking as if he knows – yet he does not know. That is mis-leading the innocent.

Quote Osho…
It means that NOBODY can go to Sach Khand and there cannot be a Sach Khand because there is only ONE! There cannot be any PLACE or SOUL to visit Sach Khand.
ONENESS means there is nothing. And nothing means Nothing – sweet F.A.
ZERO – Zilch – absence al all things, entities, regions, thoughts, being, etc.
“There is still time left for you to repent and come back to the fold. I feel pity on new comers who fall in trap of people like yourself.”
…this is your total ununderstanding of non duality you have no clue you think you have but not.

Good to see someone take on the poisonous Ex-Satsangi in Osho Robbins, who spreads his venom on this blog from time to time. I agree with most points made against him by various posters. Such Exers who try to deceive satsangies by manipulating Guru’s statements and giving out their own versions, to elevate themselves must be taught a lesson. And a request to all readers, believe only your own experiences and don’t look up to people like Osho Robbins who are crap as they don’t portray true picture.

Quote Osho..
He is saying, pure and simple, that the RSSB books are wrong where they describe the regions as places where the soul goes to.
He has clearly said that the goal is NIRGUN means there is NOTHING THERE
…..you clearly missed with this one too.
Burning book means theory without practice means zero.
Didnt you see any world in your consciousness or your mind Osho? You quote Faqir but Faqir is deeply in describing planes but yeah they are planes of consciousness. And it was not Gurinder who firstly said they are just level of consciousness. Charan said totally the same sentence…look ate those three books of Charan the three questions and answers series…..totaly same sentence. I like your thinking but please listrn it will be for your own good that you still need to proceed and develop clearer vision of this things. Love

Osho Robbins,
May I ask why are you misleading people? Do you consider yourself some sort of spiritual authority? All that you say means nothing objectively. I am now wondering, do you actually believe what you are saying? Or are you just trying to play the revenge card?

To Osho and Oneness Preachers: If I share a Pint of Water with you, H20, and you freeze it, until it turns to Ice, then, boil the ice, until it turns to steam and evaporates, which ONE is it, Water, Ice or Steam? Where did the water originate from, did it choose to freeze or be boiled, and have any say or free will , or did it have a definite space time creation date, created by a Higher Power called God, or any Name assigned to such an Ultimate Creator?
So, is the ONE, water, ice, steam, or,….????
If you have the correct answer to the above, please do the same test with k9p and report if it ends in Oneness, or Duality?

what is k9p?

Jeff is strangely silent and offers no response to my comments.
Instead Martin, Claudine and Rich all come to his rescue.
And they have his style of writing.
go figure

So let me just ask the obvious question.
Any any of his ‘apparent defenders’ can also respond for him.
Jeff – do you still maintain that Gurinder Singh meant that the physical master does not turn up at the time of death? And that he was simply clarifying this.
Claudine asks why I am mis-leading people. How have I mis-lead anyone?
please explain.
I have simply stated what Gurinder is saying. Is that mis-leading?
Rich – can you point me to where Charan says there are no regions – just levels of consciousness, and that the master will not come at death because there is only the ONE.

Osho i am not Jeff and i already pointed you to the three latest books of Charan Singh …the question and answers session three volumes. It is somewhere in there….

Osho: “what is k9p?”
Jim solves the mystery: Dog Piss. 😂

Rich,
can you give me a reference? not “It’s somewhere in there…”
Jeff, Your other selves have posted comments – coming to your defence by attacking me but giving no reason.
How about you? Do you have any response? Do you still maintain that Gurinder saying “I am not coming a death” means “My physical body is not going to come at your death”
Or do you wish to retract that statement and perhaps propose something more logical?
Or just admit you ain’t got no fu**ing clue what you’re talking about.

Osho sorry i dont know which of three books but i bought these in Spain Malaga a few years ago and i was searching what Charan says on prana and hatha yog cause i love them and after a few exchanges with questioner he said hatha is great and then i said this to a satsangi and he was totally nervous and said tai chi is better and that chi is positive and prana is not. (is it not the same)Thats why i made research and find out Chsran also did pranayam. So if i’d tell this to that satsangi he would he nervous even more so i was quiet. And at that time cause i know your videos i get to one answer which Charan said…these are levels of consciousness…but if i find again i will somehow report to you.

Not comming at death….how? He’s already there…just deciple needs to realise…how?…with the help of awareness….? meditation

Martin, Rich, Claudine
do any of you still maintain that Gurinder Singh meant that the physical master does not turn up at the time of death? And that he was simply clarifying this.
You all seemed to be very vocal in coming to support Jeff
But nobody, including Jeff, has an answer.
Martin and Claudine are both one-hit wonders. They just made a comment to side with Jeff – and even that did not address any real points – they are clearly just other names of Jeff.
And Jeff is conspicuous by his absence because he is now writing as Rich.
Jeff, Claudine, Rich, Martin – do any of you multiple personalities
have anything of value to contribute and can any of you answer the question I have asked Jeff,
namely that do you still think that Gurinder was just clarifying that the master does not come in his physical body at death?

Hey Osho, how’s it going my Brother…..it’s Manjit from London UK, we met at Ajit’s back some 17 years ago now, and we also went to a Tony Parson’s meeting together a few years later! How’s it going my friend, it’s been a long time?! I often recall here and at the Radhasoamistudies forum that I had my “initial non-dual awakening” in dialogue with your good self Sir……ah, good times, good times 🙂 We should catch up one of these days….
I see you’re still at it with Gurinder :o) Your “Sant Mat 2.0” concept/meme has also caught on in the small world of online Radhsoami discussions I feel. I wasn’t really that inclined to comment on this blog post & subsequent comments, but it’s not often that I find a post on this blog that is far too generous to Gurinder imo, so I thought I’d comment and use this as an opportunity to reconnect with you too!
Firstly, I see you’re having fun with the hordes of Radhasoami apologists? 🙂 Well, I say hordes….. We all know those anonymous poster/s, who share absolutely nothing about their background or history, who hiding behind their multiple sock-puppet usernames feel emboldened enough to make unintelligible & incoherent ad-hominem attacks, really have no substance to add to the discussion and are simply making a display of their emotional fragility & profound cognitive dissonance. Imo of course.
I don’t think Jeff is Rich/Martin/Claudine/Penny Lee/Spino, though I do think Rich/Martin/Claudine/Penny Lee/Spino is a 5 word mantric appellation which refers to a single being :o)
Re. the “book learned” insinuation from a few here, always very funny and transparently incoherent (how can anyone tell if your perspective is book learned or experiential from your posts here?). I’ve been accused of similar myself many times, that I am “intellectual”, implying lack of experiential understanding. I always take that as a compliment, knowing my own circumstances and experiences 🙂 It seems a lot of RS initiates seem to think the appearance of ignorance & a lack of intelligence are the “true” hallmarks of “true” spiritual progression, as opposed to any meaningful “realisation” leading to a high-level synthesis of right/left brain function & a natural, spontaneous influx of knowledge, information, realisations & wisdom. It’s obvious what those who write this really mean; this is an emotional defence of being unable to coherently counter your points. A projection of their own lack of realisation, experience, wisdom & incapability to naturally & spontaneously express it. Rather than facing that reality, they project onto you that you are “book learned” or an intellectual/pandit, deluding themselves that their own vague, hazy, unexamined & incoherent emotional feelings are somehow more truly “spiritual”………
Anyway, enough of that. What really gets me is just how unduly generous you’re being to Gugu in all your posts and videos etc. It doesn’t really make sense, and it’s almost if you’re still enamoured somewhat with the billionaire businesman who inherited the family religion-business? 😛 It’s clear you think Gurinder is “realised” or “enlightened” or whatever (that even means!), and that he is merely burdened with the obsolete carcass of medieval RS concepts, which he is ever vigilantly trying to help his flock shed. Now, you may have a point with this (and I’ve written before about that perspective), but I feel I have to call here:
Complete & utter bullshit!
Osho: “I asked BabaJi a question at the last Sunday gathering. I asked him to explain about SARGUN and NIRGUN. His first response was “Are you trying to test me?” I said “No,”, because I wasn’t – I just wanted him to comment on the subject. The response he gave was pretty impressive but I somehow think hardly anyone in the congregation understood him. What he said was that SARGUN is God with attributes – the path we all follow and NIRGUN is the goal – the God without any attributes – the ONE. Sargun is the MEANS and Nirgun is the END or GOAL.”
Me: Pretty impressive? Sorry, not having that my old friend! Absolutely bog-standard, basic Indian metaphysical philosophy. This really isn’t an impressive answer at all, it’s more a Mirriam’s Dictionary answer. God on earth should be doing better.
Osho: “GSD a.k.a. BabaJi has quoted Paltu many times. There is only the ONE there is no other. Paltu iko ik hai dusar nahin koi. Cant be any clearer than that. As far as I am aware GSD is the only living sant mat guru to make this statement.”
Me: Come on me old mucker – GSD has quoted Paltu – Paltu, a well known mystic from 300 years ago! – and you finish up the quote with “GSD is the only living sant mat guru to make this statement”? What, parrot/quote Paltu? Dude, RS gurus are parroting previous mystics all the time! Besides, even if GSD understands the quote, how can we tell if it’s merely “book-learned” or experiential? Hehehe…..ahh, I hope somebody understands/appreciates the subtlety of that, it being a quote from a book and all……:o)
Osho: “So why are the followers so confused. Its because they cannot let go of the old duality teachings.”
Me: Hey? Perhaps Gugu’s the one who’s confused? Look, the “followers” are confused because the ONLY reason they are attracted to this billionaire businessman who inherited the family run religious business is BECAUSE of the vast conceptual & mythic structure which surrounds him. Do you think anyone would listen to or care about his his vague & ambiguous neo-zenish english satsangs if that structure wasn’t there? From the books to the satsangs (btw, as you must know, in Punjabi, Gugu is still selling that old time dualistic schtick), to the very meaning and methodology of the initiation itself…..all old school, all dualistic.
So why wouldn’t some followers not understand Gugu’s seemingly neo-advaitic, neo-zenish few & infrequent statements in English? (btw, I 100% agree with you that he IS doing that, I’ve heard it myself & thought the same as you, that hardly anybody here will understand what he’s saying as it’s so untypically RS, and so typically advaitic). There is a strong possibility that Gurinder is indeed what I’ve heard him himself say he is in satsang, a good “actor”, and that he knows how to play the Q&A game well. With advaitic philosophy being far more sophisticated than RS – without doubt – perhaps Gugu is just trying to have his cake and eat it too? He knows he can get away with it.
Anyway, gotta go, chat soon! Manjit

Talking about “book learned” and the absurd concepts of RS….:)
I’ll repeat what I consider to be a fundamentally fatal flaw within the whole RSSB paradigm, if one is objective or brave enough to face it.
There is a well known & “authenticated” (by his secretary and others) story from Sawan Singh’s time, about a lady who wanted to get initiated, but who had such terrible karma from a previous life as a wolf (or something similar) who had killed either some wolf or human babies. She had incurred such bad and heavy karma with that act, committed as an animal, that Sawan initially refused to initiate her – Sawan was the one who had discovered this past life transgression through his inner vision. After a while or repeated entreaties, he agreed to initiate. Because of the initiation, Sawan fell ill for several days. If I recall correctly, I think the lady also gave birth to and lost 3 children.This is the general story though I may have inconsequential details wrong as this is a story I read some 25 years ago.
So, we can deduce from this that actions incurred as an animal can incur very heavy karma, so much so the “Great Master” refused to initiate her several times before acceding.
On the other hand, Gurinder has stated many times – many times – in his satsangs, that we cannot create new karma as an animal, we can only work our previously accumulated karma (note these are both views of karma known in Indian metaphysical philosophy, nothing new with either idea).
So, we have Gurinder & Sawan making fundamentally contradictory statements about a fundamentally important question. The whole house of cards has come crashing down, right here with this unarguably true & factual contradiction.
Book learned?
It’s obvious what’s happening here, the question is who is courageous enough to face it?

Yes Rich,
God is always there..we have to realise it.
Meditation practice helps idd.
Guru is pointing to that exactely..

Manjit, Sawan never said it was a wolf in his story, but a lady. And animal do not create karma, only humans do. Sawan and Gurinder said the same thing. You should not fabricate as you go along, as Osho does. But you are excused, becsuse you are not an RSSB Initiate, as Osho is.
Osho, Peter preached to the seekers and converts of his time, who had been initiated by the Living Master of the time, Jesus, and some had strayed from the Path, and were doing what you are presently doing. Here is what Peter told them, which you might apply to your self as an example.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2nd Peter 27-22.
Manjit has never been initiated by Charan, so can never see Gurinder and Charan as the same Shabd Master, as you should be able to.
What will you, Manjit, and Hines do, when you find out your fellow Exer David Lane finally comes out of his Bunker admitting that he is now an admirerer of Gurinder Singh? Will you and all of the Exers turn on him, unfriend him from your Face Book friends list, and send ad hominem attacks against him in his RSS group, as you all did to Chris Crooks, Michael Martin, me, and any one else that refused to be one fo the Ankle biters in tne Snake Pit? Or,….will you all support David Lane, and congratulate him for finally seeing the True Light, and all rally around him to make a Joint visit to the Dera? By the way, I plan on being there Oct. 15 in case you all want to hang out with me at Hostel 6. Perhaps David Lane will give us all his personal stories about his many experiences at the Dera as a young Lad to now, an aging boy/man still infatuated with The Dera and RSSB Masters.

Maybe ‘not knowing’ is the highest truth.
Faqir Chand said that his utterances at any one time may not be final.
We know what we know, there may be more or less.
One day after returning from a sesshin I took my daughter, who was 8 or 9, at the time, to the zoo and after, we had lunch at a favorite pizza place. As we were eating I was enthusiastically telling her about Zen and Buddhist philosophy, when she suddenly said, “Daddy, you are just a steaming bowl of fixed soup”.
Sometimes out of the mouths of babes.

Hi Manjit,
great to hear from you.
drop me a message with your phone no at OshoRobbins@gmail.com
Will be nice to catch up.
Regarding the point about being generous to Gurinder….
You may be right – however, I give him credit for actually making the statements he makes about oneness.
After all, he is rich now and doesn’t need all this. He could just carry on and let them (the sangat) carry on as before.
All I see is a guy having a good time. He’s relaxed, and having fun.
He says whatever comes to mind and no matter what he says nobody can possibly question him as it’s ‘his’ sangat and they will always side with him no matter how ridiculous a statement he makes.
I also just have fun there. I really don’t care about the outcome.
Most satsangis are against me – but I am not against anyone. Everyone to their own – I am simply pointing out a few obvious things – like that Gurinder is making different statements than Charan and the followers cannot even see that.
I am even saying I am impressed- yet they still consider me the enemy. Hilarious really.
Most people here and followers think I am there to fight with their guru. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Gurinder made it clear that the goal is NIRGUN (no arrtibutes). and sargun is only the pathway – not the goal.
That should be totally shocking to the followers – if only they understood.
Sadly they don’t and he might as well not speak because his words fall on deaf ears.

First of all Manjit i have nothing to do with Jeff. I am Rich but you can call me bitch if you want..hehe. And actualy i agree with you that Gurinder teaches nothing new thats why i said i read in Charans book that already Charan said that about planes of consciousness. And please do not put me in the lines of Jeff and your hordes you are mentioning them. I know for myself i dont know much.
But i really dont know why you changed so hard. More rudeness more attack…please think and i hope you will not come upon me with you analyses cause i am realy sick and tired about arguing and attacking and so on..i wanna live in peace.

Osho nobody is against you. Guaranteed.

Jim: “Manjit, Sawan never said it was a wolf in his story, but a lady. And animal do not create karma, only humans do. Sawan and Gurinder said the same thing. You should not fabricate as you go along, as Osho does. But you are excused, becsuse you are not an RSSB Initiate, as Osho is.”
Me: That is absurd! The story doesn’t even make sense if she incurred the karma as a lady. The story is well known and you are mistaken or lying. But you are excused, because despite being initiated, you really don’t know what you’re talking about!
As for the rest of your post, I find it odd and deeply disconnected from reality. But each to their own.
Rich: “First of all Manjit i have nothing to do with Jeff.”
Me: Er yeah, that’s what I wrote!: “I don’t think Jeff is Rich”
Rich ” i am realy sick and tired about arguing and attacking and so on..i wanna live in peace.”
Me: Fair enough! My first bit of advice, then, would be don’t enter a discussion (with this particular pseudonym “Rich”, at least 🙂 with the line “you have no clue you think you have but not.”.
That would be a good start, at least. 🙂
Osho: “I am simply pointing out a few obvious things – like that Gurinder is making different statements than Charan and the followers cannot even see that.
…….
Gurinder made it clear that the goal is NIRGUN (no arrtibutes). and sargun is only the pathway – not the goal.
That should be totally shocking to the followers – if only they understood.”
Me: Hey Bro, thanks for the email, will definitely drop you a message!
Re. the above, errrm, well, I do have to point out that Charan famously once wrote: “May your Love of the Form, culminate in the Love of the Formless”
🙂

Quote..you have no clue …….can also be in positive way but limit of writing cuts off that…
As far as online avatars…some have it some dont no big deal.

On my blog, is a Charan Singh Article of questions and answers about his view of creation. Actually, he said we are the individual as mind, but One as Soul, in our final merging. I do not deny that I could eventually loose consciousness that I am an individual, because I do it daily, almost every time I meditate and get lost in the Void. But I never stay there. I come out, resurface back to Duality. Here is what Master Charan Singh said about the situation.
“Q. 363. What was in the beginning?
A. First, there was only the Lord, who is without beginning and without end. He has projected Himself everywhere . There was nothing besides Him. He was the only one. All that we see is just His own projection. Everything is projected from Him. If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one. He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.
Q. 364. Maharaj Ji, does all human life start in lower forms and evolve upwards? I mean, in animal forms, or even lower?
A. He created the whole thing. The creation did not develop slowly from one thing. He simply projected Himself, through His Word, the Shabd, and the whole world and everything in it was created at once.
Q. 365. Man is a created man?
A. Some of the human beings were created as human beings; and some have transmigrated into the lower species also.
Q. To animals, and man evolved to higher forms?
A. To animals and lower. And from the lower species he has come up.
Q. 366. And do animals take on higher forms?
A. Oh, yes. Every soul is given a chance to come up to the status of a human being.
Q. Insects, too?
A. Yes, insects too. They will get a chance to become human beings at least once, whether they make use of that opportunity or not.
Q. 367. When we look upon an ant, a little object crawling, could we assume that soul was once a human form?
A. Yes.
Q. 368. Everything, except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is eternal is real, is that right?
A. That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?
Q. 369. And everything that we see out here is like a sunbeam, and at the most distant end of that sunbeam it looks out, and every­thing that we see, that is the way we become mesmerized in this
world? And only by looking back through the sunbeam you see reality, is that true?
A. That is right. All that we see with the physical eyes is made up of one or more of the five elements, namely, earth, water, fire, air and ether. And all these five elements are inimical to each other. But with the help of, or due to that ray of Shabd, the soul, which is also a ray of the Supreme Father, all of the five elements are contained and active in a human body, each one manifesting them according to his own karmas-in that proportion. But all the five elements are active, in a greater or lesser degree, in every human body. We are moving about, but the day that the Lord takes the soul away from the body, all these
salvation from the physical body when these five: elements merge back into their own origin. That is the physical death. And salvation from birth and death is attained when the soul reaches Trikuti, Brahm, and the mind merges back into the universal mind. Salvation for a soul is when it merges back into the Supreme Father, its own origin.
For the purpose of functioning in this world,
the soul has taken the association of the mind and senses; but, unfortunately the soul has not remained in control of the mind and senses. Mind is fond of pleasures, and so it has become a slave of the senses, dragging the soul down along with it to the extent that now the soul has become a slave of the senses also, through the agency of the mind. As a result, the mind as well as the soul has forgotten its origin and purpose.
We get a body according to our actions and reactions, whether it is in the human form or any­where else. But we can find the Path out of this mess, or out of this jail, only in the human form, and this grace is bestowed upon us by Him, just for this very purpose. So, while being in this body, we should always keep our destination in view and try to tread on that Path which leads to our destination. We should never forget it. We should perform our worldly duties and other responsibilities which we have to discharge, while being in this world, according o : our karma, so to say. But we should always keep our destination in view and try to tread on that Path which leads to our Home. The Path leading to our destination should always be our main road. We should not deviate to the left or the right, but keep our Goal always in mind while traveling straight on that Path.
CREATION-THE WHY OF CREATION
Q. 370. We know that God is Love; surely God does not create all this killing, suffering in the world; surely man did that by his own sin?
A. Well, sister, from where has the sin come?
Q. It is man’s wrong doing, breaking the laws of God?
A. How does man happen to do wrong things when God has created all love?
Q. That is what I often wonder?
A. Everything has come from the Lord. All that you see is His creation. Even the mind has come from Him; the Negative Power has come from Him. He has put the whole creation under the charge of Kal, the Negative Power. And Kal takes care of the whole creation, so he has made his own rules to keep souls here. We have to abide by those rules while simul­taneously disentangling ourselves on our way back to the Lord. There is nothing which has not come from the Lord, and when God is all Love, from where has the evil come? Negation of Love becomes evil. When the sun is there, the shade is there. The sun has only light, but the sun also creates the shade.
Q. 371. I wonder if this world was not in the beginning a Garden of Eden and we people were just like children playing with our toys and having a happy time until we got jealous of each other, want­ing each other’s toys, and so forth?
A. Maybe, but whatever seed of jealousy came in us, it also has come from the Lord. Nothing has come from outside.
Q. That is what seems so confusing, because it all seems so wrong?
We often feel that when God is all Love, from where did evil come? That is what we mean. The
five elements begin to decompose. The earth goes back to the earth, the water goes back to the water, and each element merges back into its own origin. So it is a 350
sun is always in the sky and it is always shining; then from where does the darkness come? It is only when that side of the earth that is facing the sun that there is sunshine; and even then, sometimes the clouds interfere, but we have daylight just the same. When there is negation of light, there is darkness, and the darkness is in proportion to the negation, the obstacle which prevents the light from shining through. Similarly, when we have no love for the Lord, when our face is turned away from Him, there is evil.
Q. 372. Master, in the four cycles of time, like the golden age, the silver age, the copper age and the iron age, did the souls in the golden age have physical bodies at that time? Was it on earth?
A. Sister, this is just our classification. You can classify this into four ages, or you can classify it into twenty ages. This is, after all, just our own classi­fication. Body is there in every age.
Q. 373. Will you please tell us what is meant by dissolution, and the grand or major dissolution?
A. I think that all this is mentioned in our books. By dissolution is meant the end of the physical universe. Grand dissolution is the absorption of everything, even beyond the astral plane, back into its origin. The final dissolution, when He is finished with this `play’, when and if the whole creation ceases, will be when every­thing is merged back into Him, the source of every­thing. Saints have tried to explain this to us through the medium of language, but the intellect cannot comprehend all this, so we should not get confused. The saints do not want us to get entangled by thinking about these things. We should concern ourselves only about this physical universe and make use of the
CREATION-THE WHY OF CREATION means which the Lord has provided for our escape from it and our ultimate return to Him.
Q. 374. After merging back into the Lord, does man maintain a separate consciousness?
A. In merging, it is still separate. Being in it, you are separate from it. But you are not conscious of your consciousness. There you just merge yourself. Even in worldly love, when you are with your beloved, you forget yourself completely and want to please only the beloved. You are so absorbed in the beloved that you do not even think about where you are or what you are, even in these physical or worldly emotions. The spiritual is much more fascinating, absorbing; it is much sublimer and nobler. The bliss of merging into the Supreme Being cannot be expressed in mortal language. There is no thought of indivi­duality, consciousness, or anything else. It is all Love, all Bliss, for, in merging, we become the Supreme Being and He is All, He is everything
Q. 375. Then there is just one consciousness?
A. The Lord is one. When we merge back into Him we become the Lord. We become a part of Him. A drop has its own identity when it is in the mud. When it leaves the ground by means of evaporation, it still has its own identity, separate from the ground and separate from the cloud. But when it merges back into the cloud, it becomes the cloud. That minute part of the cloud becomes the cloud by merging into it. When we love the Lord, we do not like to remain away from the Beloved. We lose our identity by merging back into That, and yet we remain separate from That. For instance, if you merge the flame of a lighted candle into the flame of a fire, can you differentiate whether it is the flame of the fire or the flame of the candle? When you take the candle away from the fire, you have an independent, individual flame. But when you take it back into the fire, it merges into the fire and is no longer a mere candle light. Similarly, the soul merges into the Lord.
Q. 376. Actually, it is the mind and not the soul that does not want to give up its identity’?
A. That is right. Mind is the stumbling block. This ego does not like to lose its identity. We always want to observe that I am so-and-so, I am so-and-so, and it is the `I’-ness that we do not want to lose. We perhaps think that we have developed it in this modern world, and that it is something quite unique; but the fact remains that the ego is a great stumbling block in our way. This is what we have to lose.
Q. 377. Can the conscious personality be projected to God-Realiza­tion, leaving the body at will and returning after gaining this desired goal of God-Realization, and know of it?
A. That is what the spiritual practice is for. We are trying to withdraw ourselves at will, to be there, and to come back at our will, and be here. That is the whole object of meditation.
Q. 378. 1 have heard that some schools say there are seven bodies, and some schools say there are three bodies-physical, astral and causal. Can you comment on that, please?
A. Brother, I only know that according to Sant Mat literature there are three. I have not heard or read about the seven.
Q. 379. What is the final goal? Is it where God and I are one? What does this mean, exactly? Is there a sense of individuality?
A. The idea is, “I and God are one”, “I and the Father are one”. The soul is the essence of the Lord. It has come from the Lord and it will merge back into the Lord and again become one. (Maharaj Ji explained at length about the drop of water merging back into the ocean, the drop of water in the mud merging back into the cloud, and so forth, as has already been explained elsewhere, so is not repeated here). All of us and the Father are one. There was nothing besides the Father when He created the universe. Everything was one and that One was, is and always will be the Father, the Supreme Being. The creation is His projection, and when He again with­draws everything into Himself, it again becomes one.
Q. 380. Ultimately there will be no difference between the drop and God?
A. Ultimately there will be no difference. As yet there is a great difference between the drop and the ocean. But when the drop merges into the ocean there is absolutely no difference.

“The first and foremost region, which is the highest and largest, which cannot even be called a stage or a region, is that of Radha Swami, Anami (Nameless), or Akeh (Indescribable). This is the beginning and end of everything and circumscribes all.”
-Sar Bachan 11.Param Sant Huzur Swami Ji Maharaj
“You should never think of anything as your own because everything belongs to Akal Purush Anami Radha Swami.The body, life, sons, daughters, wife,parents, wealth, house, property, all belong to Him.All this should be given back to Him. Do not keep your ‘self in anything. […] Render everything to Him. Then you attend to your worldly work, also to Bhajan and Simran,but always feel in your mind that I am not doing anything. ‘I’ simply am not. Read the Huzuri Pothi Sar Bachan) every day.It is very explanatory and enlightening. When the surat or jivatma becomes purified and becomes one with the Shabd, you will know everything.” Letter No 5.
“So long as the physical form of the Sat Guru is not considered as absolutely pure and formless (Nirakar), as the Shabd Dhun, till then the Shabd Dhun does not accept the individual.” Letter No. 37
Param Sant Jaimal Singh. Spiritual Letters.
“The attribute does not exist without the substance. The substance lies behind the attribute. The Sound Current is the substance and love is its attribute.”Param Sant, Baba Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj. Spiritual Gems Letter 189
and from Manjit above,
“May your Love of the Form, culminate in the Love of the Formless”
by Maharaj Charan Singh

Jim Sutherland,
thank you for the Charan Singh quotes.
I am just taking one specific part here.
He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection. – Maharaj Charan Singh
What does always “IS”, “WAS” and “WILL BE” mean?
“WAS” means the past – so we were never separate.
“IS” means the PRESENT – i.e. NOW (we are not separate right now)
So if it is the case NOW – then how can it be that we MERGE “one day”? (In the future)
That would make a mockery of saying NOW! (or “IS”)
Otherwise the statement should say “we are separate NOW and one day (in the future) we will merge once we meditate. Until then we will remain separate.
So there can be no question of merging if it is the case NOW!
It can only mean that we a deluded into thinking we are separate. And it is just the delusion we have to drop – not actually merge!
This is just simple logic.
If something is the case NOW – then it means there is no need to make it a goal for the future as something to attain.
It is ALREADY (RIGHT NOW) the case!
Why do you have to “work towards” something that is already the case?
If you are already sitting at home, why do you have to GO somewhere to reach your home? And if you to go – it just means you are not aware that you was already at home.
You have not got to go anywhere or do anything.
It is just a matter of realising the obvious – not doing or attaining anything.
It cannot be an attainment because all attainments are in the future (“one day”).

Hi Osho,
You haven’t replied to my previous comment on this thread, just wondering if you missed it…
thanx:-)

Q. 368. Everything, except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is eternal is real, is that right?
A. That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow? (Maharaj Charan Singh)
What does this last statement mean?
REAL means – permanent and unchanging.
Everything here is changing – so it is not REAL.
Change happens with TIME. Time is required.
Only that which is OUTSIDE of time is real.
So the REALITY is that there is only ONE.
Evertyhing that YOU experience (visions, regions, radiant forms etc) is UNREAL.
Why?
Because it is within TIME, and we have already stated that EVERYTHING within time is unreal.
So the YOU who wants to merge is UNREAL.
The REAL is already ONE, and has nothing to do with YOU and your desire to merge.
YOU are part of maya (illusion) because you are within time.
Anything you attain (visions, regions, sach khand etc) is all unreal because you are unreal.
Why? Because it is all within time. This is why it is a matter of REALIZING and not attaining.
Enlightenment is not an experience – not something you achieve, attain or arrive at.
Why? Because all those happen within time.

Manjit,
You are mistaken, Sawan Singh never stated animals create karmas. Your other mistake is that you are mixing two stories, one, wherein the nurse had killed babies during early part of her life and Sawan Singh was refusing to initiate her because of that, but on insistence he later initiated the lady, second story is of Baba Jaimal Singh who had to initiate a man with heavy load of karmas on persuasion of the villagers , subsequently he fell ill. You are mixing these two stories.
So, you should either apologize to the readers here for misleading them or produce the facts and exact references before the readers.

Surrender to an “other” is very difficult. In my humble experience, total surrender is impossible without help. So the question naturally arises, “Why surrender”? Why embark on a mission of supplanting and replacement of one’s ego with an “other”? I certainly have recognized the difficulty in surrender to a Sat Guru, both external and internal forms. It is easy – as easy as taking a breath – to surrender to the immediate desire of the moment, easy to surrender to an order from one’s employer, easy to surrender to the request of one’s child or lover – but it is extraordinarily difficult to surrender to the Guru. Surrender, my dear friends, is what the spiritual path is about. Why? Inherently we know…absolutely know…that something is not right, that there exists still a profound emptiness and dissatisfaction, festering deep within. We can all play the charade of temporal existence, some more adeptly than others, but death awaits us all. Pleasures and comforts obfuscate the immensity of this inevitability. I cannot allow myself to simply ignore that this existence is as long as snap of the fingers…and what is to come will be a direct outcome of my choices in this moment. My disciplines in this life do count. Many blessings to all souls who are, without question, seeking answers and true security for eternity.

My Dear Manit,
Your narrative is absolutely absurd. Your high pitched jingoistic criticism makes absolutely no sense. Your sentiments have been fueled by the rejection you received from the RSSB 😉 You are stoked in deep mud my friend, filled up with shrill and hateful comments.

Hi Pema
I missed your message.
I am replying now.
Did you meet and spend time with The Osho? – Pema Tej
No – but I was with one of his realized disciples who went on to be a master in how own right. It was a profound experience that transformed me.
Pema Tej:
I almost know for a fact that if such a Master such as Bhagwan Rajneesh was around today, I would have problems appreciating him/her style and methods, it is easy to enjoy him as I do now… from a convenient distance..
You are right – being with a real master is nothing like reading or listening to his discourses. There are no teachings – nothing to learn – just a lot to unlearn. The very company of such a master is everything =- not the words.
And it’s not going to be comfortable being with a master because he is out to destroy all your beliefs and ultimately you. And you want to protect both. Hence great trust and love is required to stay in his company. The master is not interested in feeding your ego – so confrontation is inevitable.
Pema Tej:
I have not seen or been with The Osho, but have enjoyed visits to the now’ Osho International Meditation Resort in Pune, and loved the vibes there…
Also, got a new name —Tejo, which I adopted from Sanyas celebration during one of my visits to the resort…
A new name only has any significance if given by your master. Osho cannot help anyone now – and the teachings and the communes have pretty much zero value because without a master there is no path.
You need personal interaction with a realized master. He is not giving out any teachings – there is nothing to teach.

Surrender to an “other” is very difficult. In my humble experience, total surrender is impossible without help.
I cannot allow myself to simply ignore that this existence is as long as snap of the fingers…and what is to come will be a direct outcome of my choices in this moment.
– al
You seek answers – they will come from within you – all external answers will fail to satisfy you.
Email me on OshoRobbins@gmail.com if you want to discuss this in detail.
Surrender means to let go of your mind and your beliefs and to be open to the truth which the conditioned mind cannot grasp.
The conditioned mind seeks answers from outside – but the real answer comes from your own realization – but only when you are able to quieten your own mind to be able to truly listen.
Normally we cannot hear what is being said because we are too busy listening to our own mind and objection.

Yeah Andrew he thinks we are a horde.

To Sukhbir: Hey? Where did Jim summon you from!? 🙂 Intriguing proposition, it is possible you may be onto something. As I’ve thrown all my RSSB books about the personal lives of the RSSB gurus away some 10+ years ago, I would be unable to find the story. Also, I would be unwilling to subject myself to having to read that stuff again even if I had the books! Regardless, the memory of the story is quite strong, and I would be deeply fascinated to see if I have indeed fabricated this memory (I mean, where the hell did the wolves come from?!). Also, I have discussed this on another forum with another defender of the RSSB faith,who is extremely knowledgeable with the RS texts (MBW/Chris), and I do not recall him ever questioning the Sawan anecdote, which tends to suggest he also heard/read the story.
It is simple – I would indeed profusely apologise if you could post up, from an RSSB book, the story you mention here “wherein the nurse had killed babies during early part of her life and Sawan Singh was refusing to initiate her because of that, but on insistence he later initiated the lady,”. Please post in full, and if wolves or other animals are not mentioned, I would indeed apologise for the error, as I would accept it is quite likely I’ve mixed up memories of stories (as opposed to the other possibility, that I read another iteration of the story, as when Kirpal is replaced by Jagat in another story mentioned here….).
Thanks, I genuinely look forward to reading the quote, and recognising my error! 🙂
To Andrew – Hey? Is there anything in your mindless post that I hadn’t already covered in the post you’re responding to? Another anon pseudonymous poster with absolutely zero substance to their comment making non sequitur insults which reveal nothing other than your own emotional fragility and hurt?
My sentiments have been fuelled by the “rejection” I received from RSSB – smiley face? Are you a satire of an RSSB initiate created by an exer? This comment is similar to Jim’s “rejects” of RSSB comment a few days ago. Jeez, you can smell the elitism and hyper-inflated egos from here, oh Dear Chosen Ones! And, honestly, how out of touch with reality are you? Any clown can get initiated by RSSB – there is bountiful evidence of this in the comments section on this blog 🙂
Btw, when was I “rejected”? I sent a letter to Gurinder aged around 17, within which I asked if it was possible to get initiated early, amongst a whole host of other things. He advised, in his template letter, to follow the teaching and get initiated at 25. Subsequent to writing that letter and receiving the response, I went through my most intense phase of devotion to Gugu (and numerous “Inner experiences” related to RS gurus), for several years, until aged around 22. I eventually left for reasons evidentially far, far beyond your understanding & experience. I never applied for initiation from RSSB when I had achieved all their dogmatic criteria, for the same reason I haven’t been “baptised” – I have no interest whatsoever in doing so, and find the whole thing ultimately absurd. Initiation and £1.50 will get you a pack of biscuits, and that’s about all! Nice attempt at pop-am-psych analysis though! Perhaps greater clarity, hence accuracy, can occur when you are not so attached to & defined by delusional dogma?
The experience of those initiated? – you have Jim his decades of meditation and his dream of Charan, and somebody mentioning 777s experiences with past lives and radiant forms as examples of “advanced inner experiences”? Carry on, Oh Wise Chosen Ones, Carry On!! 🙂
PS Andrew, that “high pitched” “hate”? That’s just the cognitive dissonance reverberating in your head projected upon me. You literally couldn’t comprehend the indifference I have to the subject of RSSB, and the nature and spirit of open, plain talk, done playfully, and simultaneously being unable to be offended. Your ego is simply to fragile to understand, and your posts demonstrate that, imo. Cheers though!
To Terry “Yeah Andrew he thinks we are a horde.” Hehehe. I don’t know where you’re being satirical or sincere here, but that was one funny line, cheers! 🙂

I like this discussion about surrender. Not surrendering to another but this feeling of just giving up. Letting go of all my thoughts and speculations, my wanting to find reasons and meaning. Just relaxing into the feeling of emptiness which I remind myself often during the day. Making my everyday life more of a meditation, not sitting and forcing myself to be still in the Sant Mat tradition, just being.
I wonder if this feeling of emptiness / connectedness is a glimpse of the oneness that Gurinder is talking about. He does seem to be keeping up with the times with the non-duality type thinking.

Osho, I asked a friend of mine, who is a devoted Hari Kristna Devotee , if he was an Avaita Oneness believer. I really respect and liked his honest answer, free of B.S. So, zimwill share it here. I can’t find any thing hete to disagree with or that upsets me. I have no Rebuttal. Check Mated.
“Jim, in my perspective, yes, ultimately all Life is One & each of us is a Spark of the Divine, an individualized aspect of the One Universal Spirit (or Atman). However, prevailing reality within this Earth dimension is what the Gnostics called the University of Duality. Our individuated souls (jivatman) evolve through the ongoing lessons of strife, struggle, karma, re-birth, Nature & duality. Knowing we are all God, that we are All One & everything ‘external’ is an illusion is not particularly helpful on this challenging journey through the University of Duality. I’d prefer to have wisdom, health, common sense & the practical skills to lead an effective spiritual practice & a joyful, peaceful creative sustainable community life that’s truly worth living. 🙂 As for the above mentioned teachers & what they have to say about Oneness: That’s their business. Not mine. ”
As for your Osho experiences, no doubt, that Jain Monk was a brilliant Philosopher, but he was also a devious scoundrel , involved 1000 fold in more sexual scandels among his female Devotees than Thakar Singh ever was. His U.S. Ashram in Oregon was an on going Orgy, out of control. Osho got his Highs by ingesting Nitrous Oxide. Hope you have not followed his example? I have read a ton of his books, and no doubt, his thoughts were short of Genius. One of my friends that knew him and visited his Oregon Ashram, told me that Osho read two different books at the same time, one with each eye, and had photographic memory while scanning them. But, his Ashram in Oregon appeared like a Lunatic Asylum, to ” Normal” Sant Maters like me. Waking Now’s Documentary posted as the 4 part ” Confession” here in Brian’s Church, trying to criticize Charan Singh, Gurinder Singh and RSSB is like a Disneyland Story as compared to Documentaries and books written by Osho defectors, including his closer, inner females he impregnated.

Osho Robbins, this is how Osho’s Devotees ” Celebrated” Osho in his Oregon Ashram.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gzSsqMgCk

Quote manjit…Any clown can get initiated by RSSB
Quote manjit…far, far beyond your understanding & experience
…
….uhuhuu who is the elitist
Quote manjit…You literally couldn’t comprehend the indifference I have to the subject of RSSB….
Uau manjit just uau your posts are just constan comercial for you you and you. You are the best. How come you never doubt your analyzes about people here and on rss. If you only know how many times you miss about psyche of other people. And how much you insult rssb now you dont even listen anyone anymore. By almost everybody you find mistakes and you insult and constantly correct other always your last word.
You became the new tAo.
….and yes i am bellow your experiences and my mind is and will never understand your supremacy but my mind knows one think for sure…you ve changed alot.

There is Osho Robbins at 2:28 min.

Manjit,
Below are the 2 stories which you were mixing:
An Allegory of Great Master & a Lady – This is from Krishin Babani’s hindi satsang which I translated in English for English speaking audience.
It’s an incident of Great Master’s time. Great Master was shortlisting candidates for initiation. Shortlisted candidates were being sent to a separate room and the rejected candidates were being sent outside. After shortlisting candidates Great Master came to the room, paused, and said, here someone whom I have not selected has come by himself. I don’t want to call out their name, I am going outside, and meanwhile he should exit himself. Great Master went outside and returned after a few minutes. That person had not exited, so Great Master again said, he is still here, I am again going outside, he should exit. Great Master returned after a few minutes again, but the person still didn’t leave. Great Master closed the door and pointed towards a lady asking her to get up. She stood up with folded hands. Great Master said, Bibi I gave you two chances but you didn’t leave. Your karmic load is very heavy, you killed three of your new born daughters? She said, I have killed only two. Great Master said, and one you asked the delivery nurse to kill. She said, Yes Hazur! But please tell me, other than your court, if there any other court in this world where sinners like me can be forgiven, so I can go there? At this she started crying. Great Master then said, Okay Bibi! You are forgiven. Take your seat. And she was initiated.
The other story is “The Initiation of Hukam Singh”. You can find this story in the book Tales of Mystic East and other books. This story is from Baba Jaimal Singh’s time. Upon initiating Hukam Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh fell ill for several days and He later revealed it was due to very heavy karmas of Hukam Singh.
The stage is set for you Manjit ! Readers are waiting for an apology from you!
Thanks

Osho,
You say that past masters have also differentiated between inner and outer form of the master, just like the present Great One! Then what’s the matter O confused nut? When the present Great One is saying the same thing, just like the previous masters, that, physical form of the master is limited to the physical, cremation ground is the farthest it can go, beyond that it cannot, while the Shabd Form is what stays with the disciple after death. Disciple is also not the physical body but the consciousness. Hard to understand, Eh? Shabd Form of the Master appears at the time of death and remains with the disciple, is the teaching of all Masters in question, past and present. Sadly, you have failed to understand the teachings, probably because you sit in satsang with your own perceived notions which you are unwilling to do away with, before asking a question you form an answer in your mind, so you are unable to grasp what the master is conveying, or like I said before, you have malicious motives, of trying to let down the master in order to elevate yourself within your own Ego zone.
You also say that present Great One has himself clarified that they are levels of consciousness not regions? Wow! O Great Nut! You really are making yourself look like a fool. Watch out guys, this confused nut says that past masters used the term “regions” and the present master uses the term “levels”, and this according to this nut is change in teachings. This is like use of terms “water” or “aqua” for the same component. By using different terms the properties of the component do not change. Similarly, some masters have categorized the experiences which come along the way into regions, while others have categorized the experiences as various levels. This when past masters ( Sawan Singh whom he seems to be referring to) never spoke English, his teachings have only been translated to English and translations can never be 100% accurate. Osho, you have caught one such translated term “region.” This is the foundation of Osho’s Sant Mat 2.0 invention. All readers should take notice, Osho deserves an applause for this.
Moving on, to expose Osho on another point. As for burning the books statement, Osho now says that, “Show me where I said that no past master ever said that. I didn’t make that statement. ” So he is now denying he ever said that. So, let’s remind him what he said. This is what you said Osho – “No other master has said “burn the books.” Gurinder has.” For other readers, just check for his comments in this thread above where he said so. Grow up Osho, when someone gives a counter argument which rattles your original statement, you deny even having made the statement.
Open up your mind to understand the teachings and leave the bitterness. It is for your own good.

Eric – stop being a coward and hiding behind pseudonyms! Though the deeply delusional & mistaken contents of your comments are appropriate for such a troll. Carry on, I suppose!
Sukhbir – hey? I specifically asked for a quote from the (at least 2?) times this story is written in the official RSSB books – you have provided your personal translation of a Babani satsang, as if that proves or means anything whatsoever? I will not ask for an apology from you, just a simple check of the books and posting the ACTUAL quote would absolve you of all sins! 🙂
Jeff – yeah, sure, only bitterness can explain anybody criticising or, as in this case, questioning RS teachings or history – what else could explain it, right?
Well, except perhaps the deeply delusional and disconnected from reality mindset of somebody suckered into the overtly nonsensical and absurd world-view of RSSB, who thinks all critics are hateful, bitter and rejects.
A rather wonderful display of the delusions of religious belief.

Manjit you really know how to insult and attack..sorry i am not dellusional. Bye

Eric: “Manjit you really know how to insult and attack”
Perhaps we just have different ways of communicating? Some people adopt a threefold communication strategem:
1) Hide (use a variety of pseudonyms virtually simultaneously, say like, errrm, Eric, Rich, Penny Lee etc etc etc)
2) Attack (“you do not know what you’re talking about” or “your posts are just a constant commercial for you” etc etc)
Most importantly, remember to not embed these inane, one line “contributions” to the discussion within any kind of meaningful or interesting substance or information. Just the attacks, maam!
3) Play the victim (“I am really sick of arguing and fighting” or “you really know how to attack and insult” for eg.)
Now, this may work for some. But it’s all a little too convoluted and boring for others. Some people can just be straightforward, honest, integral and blunt when discussing controversial topics (ie. topics which seriously threaten certain peoples ego’s sense of identity) and take it all rather impersonally. Those tend to be the people least identified with the comforting narratives which sooth the ego, dear Chosen One of the Great One, and more interested in the nature of truth and reality itself. So you and several other commentators on this thread are excused 🙂
Cheers

Ok manjit i will take that to consideration

I will consider manjit but i am definitely not deluded

Okay, fair enough, errrm, Eric!
Monitoring this thread in order to respond to comments, make apologies etc has become tiresome. I’ll perhaps pop by in a long while to see what’s trending round these remote parts 😉

Jeff,
First of all, what’s with your language? Is that what RSSB teaches you? To use the type of language that you use?
Can’t you write without that type of language? O confused nut?
But since you have resorted to that type of language – I will respond in the same way.
JEFF WROTE:
“You say that past masters have also differentiated between inner and outer form of the master, just like the present Great One! Then what’s the matter O confused nut? When the present Great One is saying the same thing, just like the previous masters, that, physical form of the master is limited to the physical,” – Jeff
Let’s get this straight. YOU (Jeff) previously wrote:-
“The previous masters have said the radiant form of the master comes at the time of death. The present Great One has differentiated between the outer form and the inner form. The outer physical form has limitations. No past master ever said physical form of the master will come at the time of death. The present Great One clarified so no misunderstandings remain and initiates attach themselves with the Shabd Form, not the physical. You have failed to understand both past and present teachings, as you say they are different. “ – Jeff
So you said that “The Great One” clarified that the radiant form comes at death, not the physical.
So I responded and said, “Clarified what? That the physical master is not coming at death? You think that needs clarifying? You really think the present sangat is that stupid that they are waiting for a knock on the door?”
Jeff, are you STILL seriously saying that Gurinder meant that he is not coming physically? (if you are, I suggest you visit a psychiatrist)
Everyone KNOWS he is not coming physically (except apparently Jeff)
So that does NOT need clarifying – so I would say He was NOT clarifying that.
What is obvious to everyone does not need clarifying.
So let me spell it out because obviously you’re a bit retarded, Jeff.
Gurinder was NOT, repeat NOT clarifying that he is not going to come physically.
How do I know that?
Here’s how: because unlike Jeff, Gurinder is not a retard. He knows that everyone knows he is not coming PHYSICALLY. Only an idiot would think that the guru is going to come physically.
So – now pay attention Jeff – this is important for retards.
The obvious never needs to be clarified.
So – that is NOT what Gurinder meant when he said he is not coming at the time of death. He meant in his radiant form.
Now –let’s go further. If you actually read further – I even explained what he meant. But because you can’t read – I will cut and paste it here so you can read it this time:
“He has HIMSELF explained what he means so people cannot misunderstand him. He says, “please try to understand what I am saying. If there is ONLY THE ONE, how can “I” come to get “YOU”? And WHERE will I take you?”
He is clearly talking about the ONENESS.
Did you not read this above? Or did you choose to ignore it?

Isn’t it standard Sant Mat Phiosophy that the Physical Master projects his Radiant ( Astral Form) in the Third Eye of those He initiates? Jesus told his initiated Desciples he would never leave them, nor forsake them, even until the end of the world. It becomes obvious that the Astral Form of the Master splits, from the One, and becomes the Many, and takes residence in each of the millions of initiated Desciples, so doesn’t need to travel from any where to meet the Desciple at death of the physicsl body. The Astral Form of the Master is already there, because he has never left, since the day of Initiation to the end, or the death of the physical body. So, the One became Many, and will remain Many,….until the end of the world, i.e. Complete disillusion. I have heard reports from friends, more than one, who have seen the face of Master Charan Singh inside multiple spheres of Light , inside, manifesting his multiple images of his Radiant Form, to the Meditator. This further example is the testimony of multiple desciples of Faquir Chand ALL seeing his Astral Form appearing to them simultaneously, on tne Battle field, warning them. The Astral body is unlimited, from the number of images it projects, and it also serms obvious, that the Physicsl body where the Astral hody is projected from, is not aware of these projections. That’s why Faqir Chand claimed “He” never went any where. But his Astral body, did go to many of his Desciples, as the Astral body of Charan Singh came to me,……FROM my THIRD EYE, where his projected Radiant Form has taken refuge, every since he initiated me Feb. 4, 1990. He has always been there, is still there, will never leave me, will manifest at the death of my body, the same as he will for every Desciple he has initiated. The same holds true for Gurinder Singh, and the Desciples he has initiated. In fact, as Charan Singh said , all Masters are the same, the Shabd, many Charan Initiates SEE Gurinder Singh morph in to Charan Singh, at Satsangs, and other places. Skeptics like Manjit who have never been initiated by a Sant Mat Master do NOT have the Astral Form implanted at their Third Eye, nor are hooked to the Chain that binds Disciples to their Masters, so all they can do is keep,……..complaining and debating about they will never experience with out being accepted by a Complete Master and initiated by him. Marked souls are found by Complete Masters that The Father draws them to, and they ask for initiation, are accepted, then initiated, then the Master’s Astral Form is projected in to the Initiate’s Third Eye, and is always there to guide, and will never forsake, until the end of the world. THAT is Sant Mat 101 Boys & Girls! Not complicated at all. Deal with it Skeptics, or offer Marked souls a purer Path.

Osho,
You are completely rattled. You and your Sant Mat 2.0 exploits have been exposed right here on this Church and the readers here have taken note of it. So you are now short of words, you have no substantial arguments left and have given up. Which is good!
Jim Sutherland,
All good points. You seem to have understood the teachings well, unlike Osho whose theory stands exposed. Even I know of people who have seen radiant form of the masters within and have had great experiences. But people like Osho try to let these masters down by giving out their own understanding of the teachings and claim there are teachings of the masters. These people still have long way to go on the path, but I still do have hope as the saying goes there are no failures on Sant Mat.

Manjit,
That story was never published in any RSSB book, for me to be able to quote from a book. Don’t try to act smart now. I produced the stories before you. And as promised you should now apologize and take your words back. Don’t let your personal brand down 🙂

Jeff
You are unable to answer one simple question.
Instead you write more nonsense.
Let me repeat the question.
Do you still maintain that Gurinder singh was just clarifying that he is not coming physically?

Jim
There are plenty of Reports of people seeing kirpal darshan thakar and Others.
So that means they were all perfect Masters?
Yet by sant mat Standards thakar at least cannot be a perfect Master by his own admission.
Thats why Wolfeing left.
Yet still people followed him and he has a successor
Because people believe what they want to believe regardless of evidence

i Believe Its not Absolutely required to “see” the radiant form in sant mat. One has to establish the presence of Guru inside. Even in sant mat its said that there are stages where one has to merge in radiant form to proceed further.So its clear that Duality of radiant form is illusion as long as we are trying to access it from this Material world. One can have normal conversation with Master without ever establishing his radiant form.it makes possible to have presence of master 24/7 alongside you and not to digress from path.

Jim: “Manjit who have never been initiated by a Sant Mat Master do NOT have the Astral Form implanted at their Third Eye, nor are hooked to the Chain that binds Disciples to their Masters, so all they can do is keep,……..complaining and debating about they will never experience with out being accepted by a Complete Master and initiated by him”
Hehe Jim, you’re an endless source of amusement!
My friend, despite your initiations and decades of meditation, you’ve shared your “mind blowing” recent and apparently most advanced experience here…..a minor dream/vision of Charan. You even thought that I would be so astonished, as would others here, that we would all come back to the sacred fold of the “Great One”. You have no idea how hilarious I found that!
You simply don’t have the tools to comprehend how ridiculous your perspective is, you are trapped in minor delusions and illusions. As a connoisseur of inner experiences, ecstasies, insights etc, you really haven’t got the slightest clue how utterly unremarkable your experience seems to me. Well, remarkable in the sense it demonstrates just how little RSSB satsangis experience and or progress! With your statements, you make unintentional revelations which contradict your desired point!
Lots of theories & dogmas, lots of conceptual (calling it “intellectual” would be an insult to the intellect 🙂 speculations and parroting of partially understood ideas you’ve read in books.
But what substance do you actually have to back up any of your claims may actually be true? A minor dream or vision of Charan? Brother, despite you initiations, age and meditation, you simply cannot comprehend that you are discussing child’s play. You are, quite obviously, discussing topics way, way out of your depth & experience.
Let”s put it quite simply – if there are any readers impressed with your experience after receiving “Initiation” and decades of meditation, then they deserve to follow RSSB!! 🙂 It really is that simple. People go to where they are attracted, to where something is offered to them that appears to them.
Just don’t delude yourself in not imagining there isn’t thousands if not millions of people, both uninitiated and so-called initiated (which really means nothing, no “astral form” is implanted anywhere, the astral light out of which ANY form can be materialised exists within all human consciousnesses), who have had countless such experiences as children, and have had infinitely more “transcendent” experiences which make those sorts of experiences seem really quite mundane & banal. Again, within your own claims is the seed of your absurdities & delusions. Lots of claims, absolutely zero substance, as self-described (a dream of Charan proves absolutely nothing about any of the concepts you parrot here!).
And the irony of all those who mention “Book learning” on this thread……..you cannot make this up!

Osho,
You stand exposed in front of the readers. Your Sant Mat 2.0 has gone for a toss. You have failed to understand the fact that everything in this creation exists in pairs of opposites. There are no MANY without the ONE, there is no ONE without the MANY. ONE can be conscious of its oneness only if MANY exists, similarly MANY require the ONE to be conscious of its duality. Could the ONE be conscious of its oneness if the opposite of it did not exist? Could one be conscious of the darkness if light didn’t exist? Could one be conscious of the light if there was no darkness? For the existence of anything, the opposite of it must also exist. The pairs of opposites co-exist. There is absolutely nothing in this creation, opposite of which does not exist. If there is anything, I would request you to enlighten us.

Jeff Wrote:
“You are completely rattled. You and your Sant Mat 2.0 exploits have been exposed right here on this Church and the readers here have taken note of it. So you are now short of words, you have no substantial arguments left and have given up. Which is good!”
What utter absolute nonsense!
You have not even answered a simple question I have now asked you at least three times. I am afraid, Jeff – it’s YOU you had no idea what’s going on.
If you can’t answer a simple question – what does that say about you?

Jeff wrote:
“Even I know of people who have seen radiant form of the masters within and have had great experiences. But people like Osho try to let these masters down by giving out their own understanding of the teachings and claim there are teachings of the masters. ”
You KNOW people? are you kidding? I know people who claim to talk to Jesus, so what?
Does that make it true?
Firstly – You obviously have not seen the radiant form – which means you are writing only theory – not from personal experience.
Even if someone sees the radiant form, it doesn’t mean it’s real.
This is what Faqir Chand says in part two of the abridged version of “Truth Always Wins”
“The manifestation of my forms at different parts of the country, to different persons at different times, convinced me that whatever manifestations I have been enjoying within (i.e., the holy forms of Hazur Data Dayal Ji), were not the reality, but creations of my faith and mind. It was all shadow (“Chhaya Purush”). It is neither the work of soul, not is it the soul. ”
Jeff, you are seriously deluded if you think I am giving out my own personal teachings and pretending they are the teachings of RSSB.
I have simply pointed out what others have voiced. I have not invented Sant mat 2.0 or 3.0
I have simply pointed out and clarified what I and many others have heard. If you don’t hear the same thing – it’s because you are unable to hear what is being said.
Unlike you, I speak directly from my own experience – not second hand bullshit like you do.
For example – you made a big issue of the “burn the books” point. Creating your own meaning of what Gurinder was saying.
What you don’t seem to realise – is that the “burn the books” statement was made in a certain context – in response to my question about “My God is here” (I am not saying this is the only time he has made the statement – but it is ONE of the times)
you can hear the whole thing here at 3:20 – 4.20 of the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50

To @Osho,
Chill man !!
And I am sure you know all the essence and just that this weird discussion is dragging so far for eternity… Isn’t it just too nostalgic?
No, Not only GSD, I was just reading the texts from Baba Jaimal Singh Ji Mahraj in the letters HE sent to The Great Master,
And it’s not different then what GSD says in the Satsangs.
Over and over again HE is mentioning to The Great Master:
“Huzur will take care of all the things.
Leave all your self thoughts, and consider it all belongs to the Anami Purush Radha Soami.
Huzur is very happy with you and you will come to Satlok with me.
Stay focused in your job, job doesn’t belong to Govt. the job belongs to me”
To @manjit and the likes,
Interrupting a little bit in your conversations with others:
(but I have a little right as a reader of this blog and reader of your comments)
It’s too very boring to read your last 8-10 comments.
You are missing the fun.
Jim’s experience is ordinary to you.
777’s experience is beyond your perception and you disregard them by sarcastically saying “chosen ones”.
Again to repeat,
I admit here again clearly now (maybe a joke for you – as I am very clear on how you are perceiving things these days):
I am having some real extraordinary experiences…
I did have some or the other experiences since my childhood but not as high definition as since last one year or so,
And the current experience is so bright and clear that it’s so hilarious that you feel hilarious about it.
I can not share them. I am not allowed to.
In fact, I have not met HIM – so I do not even know that I am allowed or not,
but I can’t share them unless I get HIS consent if I can even share them in disguise.
HIS consent is 100% required because these all are coming and originating just from HIM.
Maybe it will take another decade or two, I don’t know even if in this whole life I would be able to get to that stage.
I am ashamed to even mention about having some experience for I am a non deserving one,
but for the sake of mentioning that experiences are live and clear and comes to the non-worthy ones like me, and surely be coming to those who are super true and good disciples with hearts full of love and doing great in their meditation and have already paid off all their karmas.
But some are really far and beyond like 777 who have been granted with the permissions by HIM to share it all.
@manjit, truly some are the lucky ones and the hard working ones and believer ones – not only chosen ones.
Everyone who is initiated is the chosen one – but the one who actually does believe in the Guru and do the meditation with love, receives a lot.
But it’s not the same with everyone for sure, depending on the karmic account,
It’s not a guarantee that everyone is going to have a same experience and at the same timespan.
And as clearly mentioned by Soami Ji Maharaj that much much more important is listening to the sound current as compared to the visual experiences for they are nothing more than
the circus of the perishable realms of Astral and Causal.
Be kind, not to others for not being hilarious, but to yourself and don’t make fun of those having experiences on the Path, you will have to cry for years to fill the rivers and it won’t be fun.
And that too you do without even being initiated and experience the hardship of focusing of mind and getting to the thoughtless notion ? Yeah, sure, it’s easy to be a judge to others… and not even be aware of your own level.
Like me doing it to you right now ?
But yeah, you can do this as you consider it all as “delsions”. Correct ?
Sure, but the least you can do is be kind to yourself. If it’s not delusions and it’s all true, you will be in real troubles.
And do not trust me, but the Masters of all times, this is all true and you are already in troubles.
Correct yourself sooner than later.
Also, Jim’s experience of darshan of the Satguru in the dream is not ordinary.
Mark the words: “You can never have darshan of a Satguru without HIS wish. Even in dreams.”
In this current world, The Anami Purush Radha Soami is incarnated in the form of Babaji and the RSSB path is the real path to the truth.
I will copy the exact wordings (in Hindi) from Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj which HE written to Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj:
Book: Parmarthi Patra (Hindi) – English: (I think) Spiritual Letters
Letter No: 5 (in one of the oldest prints)
“Is waqt kaliyug mein yeh bakhshish hai ki ek ghadi, adhi ghadi, paav ghadi, 10 minute, 5 minute ya 1 minute ke liye bhi mann surat, nirat aur nij-mann mein yeh pakka vishwas jo jaye ki Satguru Anami Purush hain aur yeh jaan kar unke sath mann, surat va nirat ek kshan ke liye bhi Shabd se lag jayen to aatma Sach Khand pahunchegi.” (sic)
English Translation:
This time in the KaliYug, the blessing is that if even for a few moments, 10 minutes, 5 minutes or even for 1 minute, if someone’s Mann accepts the Satguru as the Anami Purush in his Surat, Nirant and Nij-Mann and with that acceptance, and connecting his Mann, Surat & Nirat with the Shabd for even a fraction of a second, the soul shall reach the Sach Khand.
You may choose not to respond, or respond in anger or that calling this all again dogmatic and delusions with your nicely crafted writing skills.
Choose whatever, but, be kind to yourself, you have already over dozed yourself.

Manjit, your rant to me almost seems a recording, repetitive , like you told Jiv, M.M., Daniel, and others about their inner ecperiences. I can not compare your drug induced inner experiences with you, as Jiv could, because I never tried drugs. But no matter that you think a donkey is pulling my wagon, I know its a horse, and not a donkey, ( as quoted by Charan) , so I don’t need any more of your donkeys to pull my wagon. My one Horse is sufficient. Your posts have convinced Glenn you are ” almost” god in human form, and even David Lane seemed to be the most impressed with you, of any one else that ever posted in his RSS Forum. So, you should be proud you have made some converts. Maybe they will ask to be initiated by your new Guru. But what is surprising to me, with your hordes of Spiritual experiences and self hyped Resume, is that you would even consider taking Initiation by an unknown Entity advertising on an Internet site. You should run that by Osho, and Lane to critique, to see if it meets their Oneness and Neural tests. As for me, since we are not in the same League, Happy Trails, where ever they may lead you. You are far beyond my Pay Grade of Spiritual expertise, Manjit de Illusion Ji. But, I KNOW my Horse is pulling my wagon, and not a donkey. 😇

To,Manjit and Isho. How do you rate Dr. Ishwar Puri’s inner experiences he shares on his hundreds of You Tube talks? Manjit, he is Old School, old age, and has never admitted to using drugs to induce inner experiences as you admit you have. Do you believe he resides in Sach Khand simultaniously while in his body, and is why he s able to teach endless Satsangs with out notes because of his inner connecfion and experiences? Both of you, ( Manjit/Osho) …do you believe he is as awakened as Gurinder Singh, as both of you insinuate you are? Come on, be honest! Ishwar says he flies in the Astral Plane, do,either of you? I have, like Super Man, with my arms out stretched before me , steering my Astral body like a Rocket Ship or cruise Missile. I was traveling at WARP speed, headed for other planets in outer space, amd looked back at tiny Planet Earth with all its land masses and blue oceans. I not only was visited by Charan speaking to me, but even had an “Entity” manifest that had bright, Silver White Light pulsing, flashing from its eyes , on-off on-off-on-off in microsecond intervals. The “Entity” was Face and head only, no hair, but very intelligent looking, like a traveler from the Future, trying to communicate with me. And these experiences were accessed by using the Sant Mat Tech and Mantra I was given at Initiation, not by smokin Weed or ingestion of LSD or other Drugs as you keep using to induce new highs to bring back to impress us boring simple Meditators using only the Sant Mat Tech our Masters shared with us. If all the RSSB Initiates shared their Inner experiences , there would be required Libraries of Books to contain the Inner Experiences. But most Initates are not Rebels like me, eilling to share. I wouldn’t share, either, if Inwas still young and employed. But my clock is running out, and I feel a need to share with the young seekers instaed of selfishly tsking my experiences to my grave in dilence. I am willing to accept my karma , to be the Bounty Hunter for marked souls. But I share what I do, because I brought Credibility with me to Sant Mat, that was not stolen from entering the back door of my Temple thru my Bung Hole as most Drug Users have, by coming to Sant Mat with their inners already burnt, so are unable to have normal Sant Mat inner experiences as I have. My experiences may be boring,…to you,…but they are the Real Deal, none artificially induced by drugs.

Jeff Writes:
“Jim Sutherland,
All good points. You seem to have understood the teachings well, unlike Osho whose theory stands exposed. Even I know of people who have seen radiant form of the masters within and have had great experiences.”
Jeff, are you the official authority on sant mat? Who are you to judge who has and has not understood, especially since you yourself do not understand and also have no personal experience.
This does not qualify you to judge others.
Everything you say is heresay which is why you spout a lot of nonsense.
You take statements out of context and have lots of pre-conceived ideas.
You cannot even hear what your own master is saying to you.
You are unable to answer a simple question.
Yet you claim to be judge and jury when in fact you are totally ignorant and unable to grasp the simplest truth.
Also – just to set the record straight – I am not the inventor of sant mat 2.0 and sant mat 3.0
I am just one of the many observers to notice that the teachings are changing. I also did not coin the terms.
Also the idea that I have created the new teachings is just laughable. Anyone who makes that statement needs to seriously check if they are in touch with reality.
How can I possibly create the teachings? and why would I?

It’s been a while since I heard Gurinder, but based on what Osho Robbins is saying, there appears ‘on the surface of it’ difference between what he (GS) now says in Q and A sessions (his satsangs too?) and what continues to be published/offered in books and general satsangs. As I understood it the core teaching is that a separated ‘soul’ is to return to its original home through the help of a living Master/meditation. This implies a state of duality then non-duality or a sort of ‘rejoining’, (language has is limitations of course). Osho Robbins’ comment that Gurinder is now talking of ‘oneness’ implies that actually there is no duality – a much simpler way of describing things and seemingly quite ‘advaitic’. In the latter, the ego/I or sense-of-self generated by the body/mind, goes about doing stuff to ensure its own continued existence. It is this sense-of-self that maintains belief in drops and separation. So wherein lies the soul?
This apparent difference and possible contradiction between earlier written teachings and what Gurinder now talks of (consistently?) is obviously of no concern to some, but it is to others as this can create confusion and possible misinterpretation. Is soul separate or not? What is it? It certainly should not be confused with the ego. I consider Sant Mat is ultimately non-dual, but the teachings (as still given in satsangs/books) can hinder the removal/dropping of belief in duality/separation.
Best wishes to all
TIm

Osho,
Glad to see you at-least admitting now that all you are saying is hearsay. Earlier you were claiming that the present Great One said all this, now you say this is what others say. Good to see the progress you are making. Keep moving in the right direction, this what you need. It’s as difficult as it may appear. Still long way to go but you have made a good start. I am impressed.

One initiated: “I am having some real extraordinary experiences…”
Me: Well done OI! However, what you don’t seem to understand, lacking a wider frame of information, knowledge & experience, is that so are many, many other people, with or without gurus, with scumbag fraudulent gurus and “genuine men of God” alike. Absolutely no difference. Absolutely no well to even tell what the difference, if any,may be. You have become trapped into associating your innate & natural human capabilities with some billionaire businessman & his religious group. It is an interesting, and self-evident, state of affairs. The facts of reality cannot be denied!
One Initiated: “and don’t make fun of those having experiences on the Path, you will have to cry for years to fill the rivers and it won’t be fun.”
Me; Hehehe, priceless 🙂 My friend, your rivers of tears will have to wait, first I must work my way through the hells of Islam & Christianity, they too have warned me! Your post is riddled with baseless dogmatic beliefs & doctrine with absolutely nothing to suggest any of it is even possibly true. You think your having “some real extraordinary experiences” means or proves anything? You reality tunnel is suffocatingly small. It appears you cannot even begin to conceive what is really going on here with these experiences, holding as you apparently do the demonstrably absurd belief only RSSB “initiates” are having these experiences (or at least genuine ones) and that the narratives they “reveal” are literally & objectively “True”…No clue at all….
One initiated: “Like me doing it to you right now ?”
Me: Well, to be honest, I am finding your post quite amusing, so, errrm, yes I suppose! Though also a little guilty, it’s obvious I’m riling some people up. See, for me, this is a subject we really should be able to take impersonally. It is too important to take personally, or take one’s own self too seriously. Because I’m like this – to my very core – I can foolishly assume others are also like this, take the same approach to the subject, don’t get offended personally etc, because all everyone’s interested in is rooting out the “truth” whatever that may be. See, I too have my own delusions! Humans! 🙂
One Initiated: “If it’s not delusions and it’s all true, you will be in real troubles.
And do not trust me, but the Masters of all times, this is all true and you are already in troubles.”
Me: I’m not one to take threats – even ones I perceive as genuinely plausible, which this one of your laughably isn’t 🙂 – very seriously at all. I’m really too lazy to be afraid of things, my friend. Besides, if Islam is true, I’ll end up in the same place as the “Masters of all times”; Hell. What you gonna do?! 🙂
To Jim – wow, lots of deceit, manipulation, distortions etc, you’re on form!! I have no inclination to address your odd & disconnected from reality/truth posts, just too many untruths contained therein that simply don’t interest me. However, it IS odd you keep mentioning “drugs”, seeing as my main debate/disgareement with Jiv was that I said I do NOT believe psychedelics can generate experiences anywhere near as “ecstatic”, natural, “Grace” filled etc as natural, meditation induced or spontaneous “inner experiences”. I base this “belief” on a wide array of experience with all methods. Again, both the vast, vast majority of my own “inner experiences” have been completely natural, and many of them more beautiful & ecstatic than anything induced by entheogenic use. However, and I have to be honest here Jim – whilst you can take it or leave it, anybody who has actual EXPERIENCE with substances like DMT, Salvia or Psilocybin etc will KNOW this is true, and I don’t play the deceit/distortion game you do, I just state the truths or facts of my own experience and let the chips fall where they may – the experience you relate is far less remarkable than many experiences that can be had under DMT or Salvia for eg. Really, and I feel a littleharsh saying this, but perhaps the truth shall set you free – your experience is in a completely different league to even those really! It IS indeed good you do your duty and share your experiences, people should be aware…….honesty is good Jim, and I believe you are being honest about this experience! Let the chips fall where they may…….
Osho: “Everything you say is heresay”
Jeff: “Glad to see you at-least admitting now that all you are saying is hearsay. ”
Me: Just about sums up the level of pro RSSB argument around here!
To Tim – finally, a semi coherent & reasonable perspective which is pro-RS!
Me: Well, I was sticking around genuinely hoping Sukhbir would find the quote which did or didn’t contain mention of wolves…..for a moment I was fascinated by the strange fallibility of my memory. Alas, all I got was a personal translation from a Babani satsang (which Gugu, btw, has requested are not purchased, shared or listened to, a request made when I was at the RSSB dera) which I’ve never heard and is not the source of my memory. Seeing as he’s not returning, I think I’ll let up on the Initiates of this forum. It feels kinda awkward that I sense so much emotional fragility from these Chosen Ones that I feel the need to let up….!
Cheerio my dear followers :o)

Here’s another cult/religion whose followers were having some “real extraordinary experiences”, right from “Initiation”. Well worth watching, fascinating:
http://sockshare.net/watch/QG3Xb9do-holy-hell.html
Re. Jim, whose had multiple “initiations” from several “Masters”, who has been meditating for decades, apparently, and has shared his recent most mind-blowing & convincing “inner experience” with the RS meditation practice here in order to convince “Marked Souls” of the validity of this path – compare and contrast that experience with those of these people who simply ingested some DMT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihP_TLfbekw
Let the chips fall where they may.
And, just to be clear, I personally think (actually, have experienced) non-entheogen induced experiences are potentially far, far more beautiful, full of love and “Grace”……

To Manjit,
Amazingly lunatic post! All you are saying is Blah-Blah-Blah. Where did you learn this Blah-Blah-Blahism? From the Adyashanti PDFs or from your interesting contender Light Wave Meditation?

To Manjit: do you have a ring in your nose? I’d rather be chained to Charan’s Bulldozer than by a ring in my nose like your wild eyed Druggie on the video. None of those DMT induced visions are comparable to visuals experienced above the Third Eye while in Spiritual states, using Sant Mat Medtiation Tech. Plus, by using Drugs, you can never control any thing, after you take your Fix, and before you know it, you are trapped as an Addict. We have control of events using Sant Mat MeditationTech., with all humans experiencing and able to verify, specks, points, and flashes of light, then sun, moon, light, Sound, ….then, passing thru individual visuals, depending on past life karma, then, Samadhi. Or, Void. Or ?………where ever. But we are in control, when to return, unlike Drug induced experiences. Plus, the Drug induced experiences are never able to be duplicated, or repeated. So, who is in control? Your last two week ends of Drug experimentation you posted in RSS left the readers absolutely clueless of exactly what you saw or heard during your intoxication. Or, should I call it ” Medication”?
My best advice I can offer you , is to return to the old Manjit that every body loved , before you were rejected by Baba Ji for initiation, and have been a bitter Bragadocia since, is, to attend his Satsang in tne U.K. this August, and bribe the Security Sewadors to give you the Mic at Gurinder’s Q & A time. ( Osho might help you, considering he is tight with the U.K. Security Sewadors. ) Then, with Mic in hand, you will have Baba Ji’s undivided attention for those fateful momemts. Meanwhile, eat lotsa Humble pie, and pracice becoming humble. Then, plead your case to Baba Ji and ask him for Initiation again. Some seekers ask several times and are rejected, before they are finally approved. Maybe David Lane will put in a good word for you, now that he is back in good Grace with Baba Ji. Tell him you have read all the books, done all the practicing, gorged on Humble Pie, and are now real ready to take the Vows and will quit rebelling . ( and put in a good word for Osho while you have the Mic in hand. )
😇

Jim,
Within your opinions and convictions, do you ever Reserve the Right to be Wrong? Could there be areas of what you have studied and learned, to be possibly one day, to be found Falsifiable?

From the above comment by sandeep we can see what is happening in RSSB.
Everyone has their own beliefs. And beliefs are such that whatever you believe appears to be true to you.
Nobody is going to tell you that you are incorrect. So you can carry on believing whatever you want to believe
RSSB followers are adamant that a guru is needed. However if you can believe whatever you want and the guru is not going to advise you otherwise how exactly are you on the path of that guru?
To be on any path you must understand that path correctly before you can walk it.
We can all clearly see that just about everyone has their own version of the path.
In the old days the disciple had personal contact with the guru and the guru would explain.
These days its different. Despite all the question answer sessions its pretty clear that most disciples are confused.
Everyone is doing their own thing and they all think they are right.

Jim writes
“THAT is Sant Mat 101 Boys & Girls! Not complicated at all. Deal with it Skeptics, or offer Marked souls a purer Path.”
A muslim can say the same about islam
As can the follower of any religion
It doesnt make it true. Just a belief

Osho:…These days its different. Despite all the question answer sessions its pretty clear that most disciples are confused.
Everyone is doing their own thing and they all think they are right.
….including you osho

Roger, I think I have a very eclectic, open mind. I might be wrong in every thing I believe. Yet, I really feel I am guided by my Higher Soul Self, that never lets me stray far enough off the beaten path to let me get in to situations that will leave me no way out. If you have ever taken the time to scan my blog, you would have never asked your question. Sure I can be wrong, and have admitted it, most of my life when proven wrong. But in Spirituality and Mysticism, no one can prove a donkey pulls my wagon when I know its a horse. I really haven’t found any new Revelations the last 25-30 years or so, even with the Internet hosting just about every new thought, old thoughts, channeling, etc. that any one can access. Five years ago, here is where I was on a post on my blog. I haven’t strayed far from these to date.
Inspiration, Thoughts, New Ideas, …HOW & WHERE Do They Come From? If We Are Puppets, WHO Is Puppet Master?
I have been feeling like writing something about the mystery and methodology of how we manage to suddenly “catch”, or “feel” thoughts, especially those that appear new to us, or that suddenly appear out of “some where?”
In order to arrive at even the minutest speculations about this subject, we must first establish a few assumptions.
1) “Something, or Some One,” sends those thoughts to us, and are successful of penetrating our skulls, and entering our brains.
2) Or, No one or nothing sends anything to us, and we are only parroting information that we have either read, heard, or seen some where during our life here on earth, in these bodies.
3) If the thoughts are being sent to us, than by Whom, and how? God? ( He/She/It/ETs/spirits/Angels/Messengers/Demons/Aliens/Magicians/Shamans/Witches/Warlocks, humans/animals/???) The list could be endless, depending on on the belief system of the person receiving the thoughts.
But, since this is my Blog, and I am the Writer, than, please allow me the Honor of speculations.
I realize, and know, that after 70 years on earth, in this body, I have read, heard, seen, and experienced stuff that at least, gives me some foundation to weigh, any inner inspiration, or messages, or thoughts that suddenly appear to me, seemingly, out of no where.
I ofter wonder, why my inspiration and ideas seem to be so boring, or have such little value to the world, and hardly worth sharing with any one, other than the few that stumble onto this Blog, and stay even long enough to read past the first post. I also wonder if great people of powers, such as Presidents, Dictators, Kings, Queens, Business people, receive their thoughts the same way.
Well, I am finally arriving at the place in my life, where I am more willing to share exactly what I believe, ( with some), but not all), rather than trying to please all, and tell every one what they want to hear, in support of what they already believe, and are always looking for other confirmation to support their own belief systems.
For me, I believe in an infinite Creator, or Cosmic Power, that no human being has ever fully encountered, or saw and had conversations with, face to face. ( Including Mormons) WE Christians, refer to this Creator as God, but I could fill pages of words used as Titles for this Creative Power I choose to call God, but have already shared some of them on my other Posts here on this blog.
But, since I have never saw God, face to face, ( if another face is actually even involved), I prefer to understand my Creator as THE ONE ETERNAL SPIRIT, WHO has created every thing that has ever been created, and continues to expand creation, as I write, and you read!
I can’t even imagine for a second, how materialists, or Atheists, are able to continue living life here, with out any faith in their survival at death of the body, or their belief that it all ends here, so I won’t even go there, or comment about such a drab and boring subject.
I believe that my Creator, God, not only has created everything here, on earth, but has also created, and controls all creation in the Universe and Galaxies! I surely can’t explain how, or the mechanics, or methodology, or reason God creates, but I know every living thing has a portion of God Anatomy, in order to be a living specie, other wise, no life would be present any where.
But, I AM NOT GOD, nor ever expect to be, in spite of Eastern religious belief, taken from mostly Hindu literature. I do believe that God clones spirits from SPIRIT, and that spirit is called Christ, by we Christians. That spirit is called by other Names by other religions and sects. ( See my other Posts on the blog if interested is seeing other Names)
So, to me, or my understanding, GOD is ETERNAL SPIRIT, and each living entity has been clones from that SPIRIT, and have been given a portion and have become living “souls.” Bible records that God breaths His Breath into humans and they become living souls! It also records that the spirit of man is the Candle of The lord!” ( Don’t want to Bible thump, or preach, so as not to offend the reader and chase him/her away.)
So, BEFORE that spirit is breathed into humans ( I will only discuss human spirits, on this post, or it can get real controversial), that spirit, was created by SPIRIT at some time in the past, but no one including me, knows when. But, once created, that spirit is Eternal! That I believe, and is what I choose to live by. So, considering NO ONE really KNOWS just where God resides, or where “Heaven” really is located, individual spirits that God has created in the past, are spirits when not materialized, but are “souls” once they have incarnated into HUMAN bodies. So, again, after God breaths Breath into humans, they become living souls.
OK, so far, so easy to understand! So, humans are born, live life, and die. Its all part of the process in the “Play of Consciousness.” So, as soon as the body dies, and the spirit again is released from the body, since it is Eternal, it re-enters the spirit realm. Religions argue about where spirit goes. But, for now, let’s just agree that it goes some where, and is no longer in the human body.
Now these spirits, too numerous to even number, are still controlled by Eternal Creator, SPIRIT, i.e. God. As in earth life, we each have different agendas, lives, jobs, etc. etc. There is always some sort of “Chain of Command”, regardless of what Nationality or country humans find them selves born in. So, someone is always communicating with humans from a material level, and teaching them, but what about thoughts, and intuition, or inspiration again?
Well, there are some egotists who have the audacity to think they have God’s private Hot Line, and receive their instructions directly from Him! But, that’s not my belief.
I believe that I receive my thoughts from dis-incarnated spirits, who were once humans, or at least, the thoughts that I receive that I can recognise, or sort out to have originated on earth. Just as here on earth, not every human has the same knowledge, morals, or beliefs. Why would spirits become geniuses when leaving human bodies that were idiots? Spiritual growth is a constant progression, forward, towards SPIRIT, so I weigh any thoughts, or messages I receive, based on my experience and learning while here. Of course, Reincarnation and Karma have to be considered, otherwise, no telling where such thoughts could be coming from.
I have read all the possibilities of where different humans receive their thoughts, messages, and instructions from.
Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha, Mohammad, the Virgin Mary, Catholic Saints, Indian Gurus, human spirits asleep and Astral projecting, Remote Viewers, Shamans, Aliens, demons, Angels, Prophets, Saints, etc. etc. But, we have to be reasonable enough, to settle the fact that none of us are important enough in Eternal Creation to have the only Direct Channel to SPIRIT. Sorry, Pentecostals, speaking in Tongues isn’t gonna enlighten you, or make you God, or enable you to get any private Spiritual information worth trying to change anything in the world.
I believe the Chain of Command is used in the Spiritual World by Creator SPIRIT GOD, Who uses spirits to continue the Play of Conciousness. Other planets, in other Galaxies, where ever life forms, in material form exist, also have incarnated spirits cloned from SPIRIT. So, I can’t remember ever receiving any messages from any of them, or I’d have a whole lot more interesting information to share with Y’all right now, but, meanwhile, until I do receive any thing of interest, I remain, and bid Y’all pleasant and Eternal Journies, in SPIRIT.

Jeff wrote:
“Osho, Glad to see you at-least admitting now that all you are saying is hearsay. Earlier you were claiming that the present Great One said all this, now you say this is what others say. Good to see the progress you are making.”
Jeff – you seriously need to check yourself into the nearest nut-house.
Surely you cannot be THAT stupid. I merely pointed out that others have heard him make those statements – not just me.
Somehow – in your limited pea-brain – that means that ONLY others have heard him say it. How the heck do you make that assumption?
Where do you get your logic from? Even a five year old can figure out that the two are not mutually exclusive.
That just because I have said that others have heard him, does NOT MEAN that therefore I HAVE NOT! And just in case you are totally thick – you can hear me saying on my videos that I personally asked BabaJi the question and what his answer was.
And you say – I am admitting that It’s hearsay?
Seriously Jeff – you are making a complete fool of yourself.
It is that type of warped thinking that makes you write complete bullshit.
And you have still not answered a simple question that I have asked you plenty of times now.
Just admit that you have no idea what you are saying.
You haven’t got the ability to have a logical argument with anyone because you are unable to use simple logic.

Wow, comments zoom well past the century mark, I see. Trust RSSB-related topics to heat up the discussion here — especially when the revered head honcho is (if only by proxy) batting out there!
Although a regular reader of Brian’s website, I rarely comment these days, since Brian himself as well as the other commenters here generally think though and express what I might myself think up and say, and far better than I myself ever would. But I simply had to chip in here and add to the comment score, if only with one or two humble singles! Here’s rooting for a double century already!
.
While here, let me ask Osho Robbins a question, if he isn’t exhausted answering people’s questions and battling their comments, and will take one more.
.
Osho Robbins, at one point in this long series of comments, when “Penny” attempts to denigrate what she considers your (non-experiential) book-learning, you rebut her by declaring that your Advaita-ish comments are indeed borne of actual experience. You also quite emphatically, in your comments to Jim Sutherland, refer to the emptiness (not some Advaitic/Buddhistic emptiness, but the ordinary sort of emptiness, that is, the pointlessness) of mere opinions and conclusions (as opposed, presumably, to real knowledge borne of real experience). Would you talk of those experiences of yours please?
Your experiences, in whatever way and form and sequence you feel comfortable presenting them here, but perhaps you could ensure you answer these specific sub-points within your answer :
(a) What were these experiences of yours, exactly? Just the experiences, distilled, and shorn of all dogma/ theory/ hypotheses/ opinions/ speculations/ conclusions.
(b) How did you come by these experiences? Were they the result of effort of any kind? You do say, more than once, that all effort is redundant and pointless, so might such experiences have come about — if not directly as a result of effort per se — at least in the course of following some kind of practice or system ; or did you simply come by these experiences wholly accidentally and literally spontaneously?
(c) Moving now from the experiences themselves to your interpretation of such experiences : In what way, exactly, do you see these experiences as validating the Advaitic position of “Oneness”? That is, how, exactly, did your empirical (if subjective) observations (in this case, your experiences) lead you to your (subjective) validation of your Advaitic hypothesis/theory?
.
Osho Robbins , while I remember your pseudonym/Avatar from earlier comments of yours that I’ve read here at Brian’s “church”, we’ve never, so far as I can recall, ever discussed stuff one-on-one ourselves, so perhaps I should clarify that I’m no RSSB-ite myself. I hold no torch for Babaji Gurinder Singh, neither to revere him and brighten his halo, nor to burn him down : no skin in the game, in other words. And I’m absolutely NOT trying to mock you or bait you in any way when I ask you to relate your experiences. I’ve enjoyed reading this very long discussion here, both sides of it, and am genuinely interested in your answers to my questions.
There are many allegedly enlightened ones who have very clearly spoken of experiences they’ve had, which directly led them to an Advaitic realization. People like Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadutta Maharaj come to mind : their “realizations” about Oneness came not merely from reasoning or from thinking things through but from real and concrete experience (that is, subjectively concrete, and real at least to them). Even Paramahansa Yogananda (of the celebrated Autobiography) speaks of experiences during meditation that I suppose might be considered Advaitic, although he does not himself join the dots to the Oneness conclusion (at least not in that book). I’m curious if you yourself have had experiences like these, Osho Robbins, and if so what they are.

Manjit, I’m intrigued by your mention of your apparently diverse “experiences”, some fuelled by certain specific drugs, some not (to paraphrase from one of your comments above). Would you talk of these experiences of yours (or, if they’ve been too numerous, then of those experiences that to you seem the most remarkable or at least those which turned out to be the most pivotal for you personally)? What led you (I mean what process, or what sequence of events or efforts) to such experiences, and what were the experiences actually like?
Also — since you’ve evidently, from your comments, analyzed these things a good deal (rather than simply accepting your experiences, or accepting some doctrinaire explanation about them) — how exactly do you interpret your experiences, and what do you think about them in the larger scheme of things? Have they been of any real use at all to you, and what overall world-view do they lead you towards? (That’s a great many questions, I realize, and a request for a potentially very lengthy answer : so whatever and however much you are comfortable answering here.)
And finally, if I may be permitted a third question : You mention at one place that these “experiences” are quite commonplace, and that thousands and perhaps even millions have had them. Do you mean that literally, and can you point me to some source for those numbers (and I don’t ask this in order to challenge you about the exact numbers, I only mean source/s that point towards such large magnitudes, generally speaking — so that I’d be fine if, in case it turns out there are no documented sources as such that you referenced, you could then talk anecdotally of subjective sources that led you to such large magnitudes in this context).
P.S. You have provided some video links in your comments here, which perhaps discuss what I’ve asked (or perhaps not) : if it isn’t too much trouble, may I request text replies to what I’ve asked, or links to text postings elsewhere? Accessing video links is a bit of an issue at my end.

Jim Sutherland, One Initiated : It was interesting reading about your experiences here. I’ve read comments from both of you earlier also, right here on Brian’s blog, which touch on your experiences. What I was wondering is this : Over at RSSB, you aren’t “allowed” to talk of your experiences generally, right? You, One Initiated, do say that experiences by RSSBites are plentiful, it’s just that they don’t talk about them because they aren’t allowed to. So, when you do have some experiences, how do you relate these subjective experiences to what your RSSB doctrine/teachings map out? Are you allowed to talk about your experiences (in order to evaluate them, and see if you’re on the right track or not) with perhaps some senior RSSBites appointed for this purpose, or perhaps with Babaji himself? You know what I’m driving at : how does this work, is there some perhaps private space/forum where these things are talked about (with full approval of the RSSB organization), and perhaps specific guidance given out with respect to specific experiences?
(Clarification, considering how heated and adversarial this discussion has become, at least in parts : I’m not mocking you or baiting you. Genuinely interested, genuinely want to know.)
For instance, One Initiated, when you see the refulgent being who’s not your Guru, the one who’s all face and no hair (or you, Jim, lose yourself in that Void) : how do you know you’re seeing what you “should” see? That this isn’t some “negative” manifestation that’s popped up to lead you astray ; or, alternatively, that this isn’t some out-and-out hallucination? Since you don’t discuss all this generally — Who gives you this one-on-one, specific guidance that you as well as every meditator will necessarily need at some point?

To appreciative reader: regardless of Rules, most initiated RSSB Satsangis who become friends, discuss and compare their inner experiences. Obviously, with 10,000,000 initiated RSSBers , Baba Ji can’t answer all questions, OUT SIDE, in his physical form, but he does, INSIDE, to his Initiates who know how to access his Radiant Form,…which are many. They do not duscuss their inner experiences publically, for other reasons than disobeying the rules. They most likely have emplyers who monitor their Internet and Facebook comments and activities, as well as Businesses with Clients, and want to remain autonomous. As for accessing fradulant entities inside, RSSB Initiates test the entities, by reciting the Simran, i.e. Mantra given to us at initiation. If the entities remains, they are trustworthy, but if they are not, they vaporize with the Mantra. Plus, they usually appear to the left of the Third Eye, while the Trust Worthy appear to the right. But only Initiates can varify this. Why don’t you ask David Lane to verify or disqualify my comments. He has spent decades inside using the Sant Mat Tech I was given.

Appreciative Reader
Without going into too much detail, which would take far too long,
there are a few things to understand
while a person can have experiences (as indeed I also have) – they are irrelevant to enlightenment.
A disciple following a duality path is actively seeking experiences.
Enlightenment is not an experience. It is the disappearance of the “I” or the ego. So there is nobody left to have an experience or to report it.
It is not the VOID that Jim Sutherland describes – because it is the end of the individual.
There is no question of there being individuality within the ONE. We just call it the ONE for want of a name. What it really means is the absence of all phenomena. No time, no space, nothing.
So who can describe and and even claim to have attained it.
So, understand enlightenment is not at attainment. It is not an achievement. It is not something that I have done.
It is a LOSING of everything including ME.
SO even to say “I am enlightened” is the biggest lie, because there is nobody there to get enlightened.
The moment it happens – the claimer disappears.
It is full of contradictions because even to say “the moment it happens..>” is untrue because it is simply a discovery of what was always the case, not something that I attain at some particular time.
This is also no sadhana, no practice, no form of doing can take me there. It is a matter of dropping all the ideas, concepts I have accumulated my entire life.
That is why RSSB followers can never arrive. They are thoroughly immersed in doing and achieving and desiring. Thats why they ask the master for “Grace”.
They are asking him to help them achieve spiritual success.
However, enlightenment is the opposite. No more seeking.
If there is nothing, what is the seeker seeking?
He must have mistaken the nothing for something.

Osho, you are playing on words. Have you also mstaken your self , that is some thing, as nothing? Or, are you nothing , that can’t know you are something, because there is no you that ever was, is, or will ever be, some thing?
Utter circular reasoning nonsense. as all of Neo-Advaita rhetoric is nonsense. Are you planning to rent a Tent and start selling tickets to come hear you teach Sant Mat 102-103 to compete with Asyashanti who scores $70 USD a head, for the gullable to come hear him talk?
I don’t think any RSSB Initiates will pay to hear you, if your example here in Brian’s Church is any example of how many Converts you will convince to abandon RSSB to follow you. 😍😇💤💤💤💤💤🙏🏻
Cheers, Mate,
Jim

Jim wrote:
“Osho, you are playing on words. Have you also mstaken your self , that is some thing, as nothing? Or, are you nothing , that can’t know you are something, because there is no you that ever was, is, or will ever be, some thing?”
Now let me quote from Charan Singh Ji himself: (from your own site)
“Q. 363. What was in the beginning?
A. First, there was only the Lord, who is without beginning and without end. He has projected Himself everywhere . There was nothing besides Him. He was the only one. All that we see is just His own projection. Everything is projected from Him. If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one. He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.
Q. 368. Everything, except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is eternal is real, is that right?
A. That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?
Is Maharaj Charan Singh Ji also playing with words? And how much will you sell his tickets for?
If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one.
He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.
That means, Jim, that there is only HIM – and no Jim. Jim is unreal, imaginary, maya. – Charan Singh is saying this – not me!
Still don’t believe him, He goes on……
“How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?”
Jim is gone tomorrow and is unreal – just like a passing dream.
Only the ONE is real – there is nothing else. Nothing besides the ONE LORD exists – Maharaj Charan SIngh says so,
He further says
“He is the only One-always was, is and will be. ”
THE ONLY ONE – what else can that mean other than that there is no separate entity that goes by the name of Jim.
If there is – then you will have to say Maharaj Charan Singh Ji in wrong, which I don’t think you will say.
Or will you?

Hi Jim,
I just re-read the text I just posted and there is a section that rhymes really well
and would also serve as a great mantra – much more powerful than simran.
In fact if you take this as a mantra from Maharaj Charan Singh Ji direct to you – you may realise your non-existence right now.
The mantra is
“there is no Jim, only HIM”
or
“there is only HIM, there is no Jim”
to make it more powerful, you can add some authenticity as below:
“There is no Jim, only HIM. There is only HIM, there is no Jim” – Maharaj Charan Singh Ji
in no time at all (since there is no time either) you will become advaita not just understand it.

Ramakrishna was a devotee of Kali – he would go into ecstasy meditating on Kali.
When Totapuri met Ramakrishna, he showed him that he was deluded in that Kali was also part of maya / illusion.
and Ramakrishna was finally free of all form.
“May the love of the form lead you to the love of the formless” – Maharaj Charan Singh Ji.
ramakrishna and totapuri:
https://www.beezone.com/da_publications/totaex.html

One Initiated wrote:
“To @Osho, Chill man !!
I was just reading the texts from Baba Jaimal Singh Ji Mahraj in the letters HE sent to The Great Master, And it’s not different then what GSD says in the Satsangs.
Over and over again HE is mentioning to The Great Master:
“Huzur will take care of all the things.
Leave all your self thoughts, and consider it all belongs to the Anami Purush Radha Soami. Huzur is very happy with you and you will come to Satlok with me.”
Which Satlok is he talking about? There is no Satlok. That is just a fiction created to entice the disciple.
Of course there cannot be a place called Satlok, and there is also no “Jaimal” to take a “Sawan” to Satlok.
Why? Because the truth is the ONE. Which means there is no individual. No Sawan, No Jaimal, no GSD, No Osho, no Jim.
Of course these exist in this moment – just like the dream exists in the moment it is happening. However, when we wake up, we say “It was just a dream – it was not real”
WHY do we say that? Why do we say the dream was UNREAL, when in fact it REALLY WAS HAPPENING at the time?
It’s because it has NOW ENDED. It wasn’t forever.
In the same way – this life, Osho, Jim, GSD, all SEEM real because they are here in this moment.
However, they will all end, just as everything in time will end.
And everything that ends is unreal.
So I am not saying that Jim has not had those experiences. I am not saying that people do not have experiences. I am saying they are not REAL in the ultimate sense of the word.
REAL is that which remains forever (beyond time and space) and that means everything here is unreal – that includes my identity.

To: Brian
Thanks for maintaining this blog and allowing so many comments.
I can totally see how many “comments pending for moderation” notifications you must be having and then publishing them all.
Really from my heart, thank you so much.
To: Everyone
I am an Indian, lives in New Delhi.
If you are coming to Beas and going via Delhi and need any sort of assistance,
please shoot me an email at: one initiated at gmail
I will be more than happy to help in my possible capacity.
To: Appreciative Reader
Here is the long comment for you:
Genuinely telling you my feelings related to the experiences.
First of all, I must mention that I have not yet met my Master, my Babaji inside.
I have not been advanced to that level and that’s truly a great level to achieve, by HIS grace and disciple’s effort.
And it’s not something which can be achieved in a jiffy.
An extremely important procedure is required to be able to get to that and this has been repeated over and over again by Jaimal Singh Ji Mahara in the letters written to Sawan Singh Ji Magaraj:
The acceptance of the fact that the current living Master is really the Anami Purush incarnated in the Human Form.
HE has clearly mentioned in the letters, till there is the slightest doubt left in the disciple, HE will not appear.
Along with that, there is whole lot of Karmas which needs to be wiped off before a disciple being able to witness HIS master inside himself.
At one place HE mentions that seeing the Master’s Radiant Form is just like seeing yourself in the Mirror,
clearer the mirror, clearer and classier will be the inner Darshan.
Again to repeat what HE is mentioned all around the book: two things with prime importance:

• Accepting the Master as actually the Anami Purush
• Consistently Listening to the Sound Current as much as possible – which really cleanse the Karmas.

The Simran and HIS Dhyan is only to be able to constantly remain connected with the Sound Current,
It’s the Listening to Sound Current which is going to cleanse the karmas and make the disciple able to have Darshan of HIS Radiant Form.
Now, on this topic, there is are endless discussions and debates on this blog and also on lots of other websites,
that unless you have a proof, how would you accept the Master as Anami Purush.
Well, to some and others (like manjit etc), the debate has a totally different vertical: weather there is anything such as Anami Purush at all ?
I really don’t know how to answer how a new disciple can accept this logic of existing of Anami Purush, Satpurush and Living Master.
I do know that this all is HIS grace on the disciple, only then the disciple starts to accept these facts, although not proven in first place.
Many people here call it brain wash – and again I don’t know how to answer that.
But, yes, I can tell that there is an inner calling with so much love filled heart, which tells that what Master is explaining is really the Truth.
And with this acceptance of Truth the disciple asks for initiation and then starts meditating and then slowly and slowly and very slowly,
the proofs starts to appear along with much much more big doses of the Love from the Master.
The tricky part here is, if the disciple fills himself with ego and starts to acclaim that these small yet powerful experiences are coming because of his own efforts,
and starts shouting out loud, the experiences stops coming and there is a valid reason as Masters explains… there is no scope of ego.
Because in reality all these experiences are because of HIS grace and not because of his efforts.
The ego can really ruin things very quickly and can shut down everything for a disciple.
Under the ego what Bulleshah did and how did his Master Shah Inayat made him to learn it is worth reading.
It’s a fact that those who keeps their mouth shut and totally by their hearts (not only their words) accepts that this all is coming because of HIS Amazing Grace,
the experiences keeps on improving day by day: as said in Gurubani:
“Nit nayi bahar”
i.e. every other day’s experiences is far and far better than the previous one
And this only happens in the Spiritual Bliss – all the worldly joys gets monotonous over and after a certain timespan,
but the Spiritual Bliss, even of the same level, is much much more joyous every next time when experienced
(And I am eligible to accept and mention this as it’s my personal experience as well).
As far as I know, there is no private forum/place where RSSB initiates secretly discuss their experiences.
Yes, the initiates are allowed to talk about the experiences with Babaji for sure,
anyone can write a letter to Babaji at Beas and they righteously get a very appropriate response.
The response even includes the clarifications on wether the experience is a real one,
or it’s from the negative power and to stay away and keep the Simran on,
just like Jim mentioned very correctly:
Even if by keep doing the Simran, the experience stays, it’s a valid one,
otherwise the visual will skip away.
Apart from that, at times there are some very senior (and reached ones) are there at Beas,
who are granted with permissions to talk to and clarify your doubts.
One such great person I know is “Gyani Arur Singh Ji” who used to be at Beas,
he was given permissions by Huzur Charan Singh Ji Maharaj,
so that any disciple can take time with him and discuss their experiences and clarify any doubts.
I know it because my mother had personally met Gyani Ji, for clearing some doubts.
And the experience of meeting him she shares till date, his face was bright red and when she sat down near him to talk to him, she was constantly getting a fragrance which is beyond the capability of a perfume and beyond the understanding of how and where this fragrance is coming from. So actually meeting him itself was a kind of overwhelming experience which got added to her beautiful memories.
Gyani Arur Singh Ji has passed away since long.
Currently, in Beas, one can get in contact with “Master Puran Singh Ji”,
why he is known as “Master” is because he was a school teacher and in Indian tradition a school teacher in rural areas is called as “Master Ji”,
he lives in Beas now, a very aged person, I think around 90-100 years old… and still radiates a tremendous energy and dedication in Sewa as a young man.
The first time you will meet him, you are sure to realise that he is not an ordinary disciple, there is something grand around him.
If you want to ask something and discuss something with him, you can meet him, it’s not easy though.
Anyone who comes with any sort of question or for any reason to meet him, before even starting any conversation, he asks either one of two things to him to complete, only after that he allows to speak a word:

• Sit on meditation right then and there for a minimum of 2.5 hours
• he will direct you to a sewa, go and do it for 2-3 hours before coming back and ask him anything

this is very interesting 🙂
I had a chance to meet him once in one of my visits to Dera Beas.
Coming back to my personal experiences:
Even by telling that I am having experiences makes me feel too bad as I do not have a slightest of intention to make any impression on anyone,
and it’s all being done by my Master and only HE is giving everything.
But of course without mentioning it I do not have any other mean of saying that it’s true that disciples do receive the gifts of these out of the world experiences from HIM.
And no one in this world has any means or any way to record the beauty of those experiences in any way to be able to express it to other to make somebody believe in it.
And that is so good in my opinion, because as Soami Ji Maharaj said in HIS book that faith will only get solidified once the disciple will see with his own eye and not only just read it from book,
or listening from his Master… and more believe will lead to more experiences. You see the point: it’s so inter-related and it has to be carried forward in a lock-step game.
The firm believe and faith along with the love filled meditation will lead a disciple to experiences and the experiences will further strengthen the belief and the faith.
As I have mentioned earlier on several occasions that I am currently not in a position to tell my experiences directly.
However, I can here express the aftermaths of having these little (but grand) experiences – which also gives a disciple a further assurance:
After a decent time spent in meditation (with the thoughtless notion and in the state of bliss), I observe the following things:

• Some very small but outstanding experience (can’t explain it, but I experience it say once in a week or a few times in a month when I do meditation, and I experience the same in a little grander version that too with 100x frequency under HIS feet when HE gives me the physical darshan when I attend HIS Satsang)
  These experiences are many times termed as delusions by the non-believers or exers. But anyone who has received it by HIS grace knows this is in real and it’s so so grand in nature yet very tiny and subtle that can’t be explained. Even if the whole population of the world unites and tells the disciple that it’s not real and your are been fooled, disciple is not going to believe because the inner connection the disciple experiences with HIM is matchless, there is nothing in this world which can be comparable to these experiences.
• After the meditation your breathing frequency drops significantly and it’s length also gets way way too shortened. Like, once you inhale.. sometimes many seconds have passed and still you have not exhaled and you are not doing it consciously, it is happening to you and you are just witnessing it.
  This is many times mixed and matched with Pranayaam, but I can surely tell you that this is not Pranayaam. In Pranayaam, you do achieve this kind of state, but in that you need to spend countless breaths initially and focusing altogether on your breaths – this will actually lead to activating different chakra and not Crown chakra – whereas in Sant Mat meditation the focus is primary going to be on the Crown Chakra
• From the top of the head (crown chakra) to your whole chest feels like super wet, and when I actually checked there is no wetness outside it’s all plain and dry, still it feels as if someone has poured so much liquid on your head and made all your upper body so pleasantly wet. I don’t know what it is, but it’s truly awesome – nothing in the world gives such a feeling and experience.
  Dogma ? Delusion ? – these are hilarious words for someone who is experiencing this feeling
• Generally my voice has a decent throw and it’s loud enough in it’s own sense with a decent volume. However, after HIS grace in the meditation, what I experience is that voice becomes really really low, the volume just vanishes at such extent that sometimes it’s inaudible. there is no longer a throw left in the voice, it becomes so soft and polite. I myself love that voice so much and many times I feel it’s not my own voice at all and I so much love hearing to that… it goes away slowly as I keep indulging back into the worldly jobs and other countless responsibilities I am going through the life.
  I think some subtle changes definitely affects every chakra, and probably when throat chakra gets affected by HIS love, this type of stuff happens – and it’s just unmatchable.
• The whole body feels so lightweight, every step you take feels like you are really sliding or flying or walking so smoothly. I literally cross checked on the weighing machine and body weight is same, but still it feels way way lightweight. I have no explanations on what it is.
• You tend to cry so much frequently. Evertime you think of your Master, your eyes gets filled with tears with no specific reason. Sometimes it’s said that the soul wants to get nearer to the Master and that’s why it cries so much… so that maybe for the subtle terms not physical. Because I have been in this state and this state was becoming more and more intense as I visited Beas and attended HIS Satsang. And there was no sadness in crying, there was some inexplicable joy in that crying in that state. Other than this I don’t cry easily for any sort of worldly matters, even in the time of extreme physical and mental pains as I remember all those days of poverty in my early life. But being in meditation and love of the Master it’s just like endless crying – sometimes I am so much into it that I want no one to come near me and let me cry for hours and days in solitude – of course it doesn’t happen as there is so much other worldly things which needs my attention. I have no explanation of this.
• The Master feels extremely near. I have never seen HIM near me, but whenever by HIS grace there is some good meditation bliss… after the meditation at every step it feels HE is somewhere near – on sofa, in the car seat, around the bed – everywhere.
• Automation of the Simran. The more you practice meditation the better it gets. Whenever there is a great meditation session and bliss starts to come, after that kind of session you will realise that you are not making any effort in doing the Simran. Even after the meditation, it’s just getting repeated internally on it’s own continuously consistently unless you start indulging in something which requires your attention. Again this is my state currently: that as soon as I start giving attention to other worldly jobs, the automated Simran goes away and I realise that now I am putting efforts on doing the Simran… there are many many disciples whose automated Simran (Ajapa Jaap) is with them 24×7.

Also, by this, I want to tell the value of attending the Master’s Physical Presence.
Of course it’s been said the real Master is the inner Master and the Physical Master is only there to guide you and explain you towards inner,
this is true but this doesn’t mean that Physical Master has any shorter value than the inner one.
The Physical Master is a Grand Living Overspilling Ocean Of The Love who is radiating plethora of tonnes of love photos every nanoseconds that you can’t remain unaffected if you keep going under HIS feet over and over again … and it really really matters to be under HIS feet even in the Physical Form.
And this is purely by my own personal experience.
I can totally understand why this is hugely underplayed by Babaji, because of the ever growing Sangat, it’s not easy to give darshan of Physical Form to everyone everytime.
If you read literature by Soami Ji Maharaj, you will know this for sure – those times were very different and Sangat was very less.
But, I am telling you, once a disciple knows this phenomena, he is not going to stay at home and going to HIM over and over again.
That’s why Babaji emphasises more and more on meditation and listening to the sound current.
Many people falsely complains that Babaji’s preaching is changing and this and that and bla-bla.
The preaching is changing in the wordings seeing the time-space requirements and changements of the current times, but someone who is filled with love, will know that the essence is same – there is no change in the teachings, there might be different wordings are in use on the stage but the essence is same as ever.
The essence was and is the only same and is defined in one go: “Surat-Shabd-Yog”
i.e. Connecting your Surat with the Shabd (the Sound Current).
I have only shared which I feel it can be.
There is so much more but I can’t explain it. Whatever I have written is only 10% of what I have.
I want to explain the rest of the 90% as well, not to mention about me having that, but to mention about HIM – about HIS Grandeur – but I simply can not do that.
And I know the 100% of mine is only a 0.00000001% of what it is – so yeah, a long way to go.
Lots of love to everyone.

Hi, Jim. So : (a) informal discussions amongst Satsangis ; and (b) inner guidance from the Radiant Form of the Guru. Right, thanks.
I asked, because in many esoteric traditions, esp. Tantric traditions, the Guru is (as in RSSB) considered the all-in-all, but in those traditions he is given this paramount position in the disciple’s spiritual life precisely because he actually hand-holds him/her through his entire spiritual journey, answering all his doubts and questions and guiding him personally. Which does not happen in RSSB. Which, let me hasten to add, I don’t mean as criticism : RSSB tradition is what it is, and those other Tantric traditions are what they are. Far be it for me to try to judge either.
And those two inner pointers per RSSB were cool : (a) entities to the left are fraudulent, those to the right are true ; and (b) the Mantra banishes the fraudulent entities. Those sound specific enough, and practical enough. Do you have personal experience of one or both of these inner points working? That is, were you ever visited by negative or imagined entities yourself, and did using these criteria help dispel them for you?
Incidentally, about your suggestion that I cross-check what you say with David Lane : I have no difficulty believing what you say and accepting it at face value (accepting it, that is, as your bona fide subjective experience, as you yourself perceived it), why wouldn’t I? And nor do I have any kind of hotline access to David Lane! I know of him and have read him, sure, and have greatly appreciated his research on Faqir Chand and the non-willed Inner Guru (non-willed by the Outer Guru), but he wouldn’t even know of my existence!

Hi, Osho Robbins. Thanks much for your response. But I’m afraid I find lots of holes in that kind of a reply. Without any offense intended to you, and with absolutely no other agenda but to discuss this rationally with you (after all why else are we here at all, commenting on this site?), I’d like to point out those holes (as they appear to me) to you.
(1) You did say, up there, that your realizations are borne of experience. And you did take umbrage at Penny’s insinuation that your realizations were bereft of actual experience. Why would you do that if experiences weren’t in any way important to the realization of Oneness? (This part of my comment appears a tad confrontational, I realize. I don’t mean it that way, let me assure you, I just want to discuss this with you. I’m not trying to arm-wrestle you, but I had to ask. If you were simply reacting to Penny’s less-than-friendly comment, well that’s fine, let’s just forget this part of it, and move on to the next two. If you’d meant it literally, then I’ll request you discuss it further.)
(2) Ramana Maharshi, for instance, arrived at his Oneness theme specifically based on his experiences (both spontaneously when he was a child, and later when meditating atop that hill of his, Arunachala). In his case, experience did lead to the realization to Oneness. (Of course, that may not be the only way. Is that what you’re saying, that there are other paths, an intellectual path perhaps, that don’t use experiences as stepping stones or guides?)
(3) If it’s simply a question of reasoning it through and coming to a conclusion, just “understanding” it : well, haven’t you said, back up there, that’s NOT what it is, not a conclusion, not an opinion? What you’ve just said to me in that last comment of yours, it does make sense (I’m not saying I’m joining the Advaita camp, but I certainly can’t find a logical flaw in the line you’re taking there, if one were to accept the axiom of One-Spirit). It does make sense, but logical reasoning and arriving at a conclusion by thinking through, that’s exactly what it is (or at least, what it looks like to me).
Sorry, Osho Robbins, perhaps I’m being dense, but I don’t understand! If it isn’t experience, if it isn’t intuition, and if it isn’t a reasoned-out conclusion either : then what *is* it, this realization of Oneness?
.
I don’t know, perhaps I’m not putting my question across properly. Let me see if I can’t put it differently. You can recall a time, surely, when you had not yet arrived at this realization about Oneness? Perhaps back during your RSSB Lecture days, or perhaps some time after you’d broken off from lecturing there but hadn’t yet arrived at the Oneness idea/realization. Think of your inner state, your state of mind at that time, will you, your thoughts and your overall mental state. In what way was that state of mind, what you thought then, different from what it is now? Can you analyze it, talk of it, the difference between then and now? What has changed? And what do you think led to that difference?
They do say “If you can talk about it, then it isn’t enlightenment!” — but jokes apart, I’m just seeing if I can see my way to understanding what you’re saying here.

Appreciative Reader,
naturally you will find holes. It is inevitable because the holes are there.
It’s like a polo (the mint) – without the hole it would not be a polo.
I will answer the best I can, however, it will raise more questions. It is unavoidable.
Appreciative Reader,:
“You did say, up there, that your realizations are borne of experience. And you did take umbrage at Penny’s insinuation that your realizations were bereft of actual experience. Why would you do that if experiences weren’t in any way important to the realization of Oneness?”
Perhaps (I don’t have the time to check to context above) I meant that I am not speaking from book-learning. So I may have used the word experience loosely, meaning that I am not simply writing from what I have heard and read – I have been through the journey. I have spent my whole life being lost and seeking, and finally it happened (but I didn’t do it).
Experience plays a part, of course. For example I went to various realized masters and they did their ‘thing’ (that’s what I like to call it because when you go to a master whatever he does is the process – there is no set technique).
This involved seriously confronting and challenging my cherished beliefs that I acquired over a lifetime. In the process – I began to let go of the false beliefs. This is of course a process and it is an experience. However – this (the process, the road, the means) is not enlightenment.
So I went through lots of experiences, as did Ramana or anyone else who may speak of enlightenment. However the enlightenment itself is never an experience – it is beyond experience. The experience leading up to it can be pinpointed.
It is not that it just happened by itself – without my seeking and without be doing anything to get it. One who is lost seeks.
However, the moment it happened – it was not my doing. It happened despite my doing.
Appreciative Reader:
“(2) Ramana Maharshi, for instance, arrived at his Oneness theme specifically based on his experiences (both spontaneously when he was a child, and later when meditating atop that hill of his, Arunachala). In his case, experience did lead to the realization to Oneness.”
I don’t know about Ramana – however enlightenment itself is not an experience, although some experience may trigger it.
Experience may lead to it – anything can lead to it. However the thing itself is not an experience.
No enlightened person will say it is an experience. What I mean is that it’s not like arriving at Sach Khand and having tea with Sat Purush. That would be an experience.
An experience involves two – (1) ME and (2) the person, things or whatever I experience, so it is dual in nature.
Hence enlightenment cannot be an experience as there is only one. Experience requires two.
Appreciative Reader:
(3) If it’s simply a question of reasoning it through and coming to a conclusion, just “understanding” it : well, haven’t you said, back up there, that’s NOT what it is, not a conclusion, not an opinion? What you’ve just said to me in that last comment of yours, it does make sense
It is not reasoning, however, if I am to speak, naturally I will use words, sentences and intellect. That is the means. Not the thing itself.
Just simply understanding the words is not enough.
In this video, Osho speaks of “agree/disagree” versus understanding / harmony
The latter triggers the realization. The former is a fight and by fighting it cannot happen. Hence every master has “INSIDERS” (those who are open even when they disagree) and “OUTSIDERS” (someone who has come to argue and seek confirmation of his own ideas)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ7KhWJu0vk
at 6:00 mins into the video he is explaining about the state of harmony.
Although he is using words and sentences – it is not about the intellect.
Some people will conclude from what I have said – that it is intellectual.
It is not. Intellect is the means, not the end. In fact the mind has to be dropped before it can happen.
But YOU cannot drop the mind – and there is no HOW.

appreciative reader wrote:
“Can you analyze it, talk of it, the difference between then and now? What has changed? And what do you think led to that difference?”
No, is the simple answer.
Of course I can talk, write and generally make a nuisance of myself, which is all I am doing. Just light entertainment. But only if you don’t take it too seriously, and you like holes.
Before enlightenment I used to go to the forest and chop wood.
After enlightenment I go to the forest and chop wood.
What else can I say?
nothing can be said.
and what is said will be mis-understood.
Osho on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSMi0whFEA
Appreciative reader:
“They do say “If you can talk about it, then it isn’t enlightenment!”
It is not an experience – hence I cannot claim anything – because there is nobody there to make the claim. Or as Osho said “Enlightenment cannot be a decoration for your ego”

To Osho: “Ultimately,…..we are all God.” That is a common Advaita mantra. But, meanwhile, back in the Wheel of 84, i.e. Charausi,….how long is ” ultimately”? Is it a moment, day, week, month, year, decade, life, lives, etc. Etc. So, to me, “ultimately” is meaningless, at my stage. I feel blessed to have been graced a human body marked by The Father to be initiated by Charan Singh, and shared the technique to finally escape The Wheel of 84. That is no small blessing!! But, after I finally escape The Wheel of 84, will my “Ultimate” merging return “me” to my Original Divine Heritage, i.e. God? No, I am sure it won’t, so why even waste any brain cells thinking anout, or imagining such nonsense? Osho, you sould return to your appreciation of being marked tor Initiation, and click the Delete Key of ONENESS. ” Be Here Now” as Ram Das liked to say. Take the example of the Brother who recently posted as ” Phil” on another thread, who said after being off the Path for years, has had Charan’s Bulldozer Chain tightened. That is an interersting thread and personal story, from an RSSB Brother initiated by Charan , as most Exers here were. Reading thru the story and comments, I would think a few of the Exers who commented on the tread are surprised by his change of mind. You, Osho, should ask him the Chain of Events that has brought a him back to the Path, which you have rejected.
Appriciative Reader: you are so detailed, you make simple teachings complicated. Tantra and Sant Mat are not mutually exclusive. I think One Initiated gave you about as detailed an account as any one can, including me. Of course, I share my own experiences, and not other’s from books, unless I quote from books. And of course, I have tested many entities, including the Mantra and witnessed them vaporize. They were Legion, i.e. Many, standing in line to torment, frighten me, test me, during my early Meditation years. I.e. First several years. Early 90s. But once they have been dealt with, and driven away, we are no longer bothered by them. Rarely, does any appear in my meditation, now. In the Bible, it is recorded in many places, that the Apostles had the Authority, ( and used it) , to cast out demons, in Jesus Name. Christian Preachers take this literally, and try to cast what they think are demons, out of other demon possessed people. But, that was all an Allegory, meaning, the NAME Apostles used, were the Mantra Jesus gave his Initiates to cast out their own demons during meditation. So, they did not use the actual Name of Jesus, but the Name he gave them, to test the entities.

Osho,
I crushed your Sant Mat 2.0 theory and thumped it into the bin. The readers here read it all and your theory stands exposed. But you are still sitting on your theory like a kid doesn’t want to leave his candy. Your arguments have been thrashed into pieces by me and others readers here. You have failed to understand that Duality and Oneness do co-exist. You have failed to understand both past and present Sant Mat teachings.
May I ask you below questions now:
1. How many satsangs of the present Great One have you heard? Satsangs not Q&A.
2. Do you consider yourself a satsangi or an Exer?

Jeff,
You are writing complete nonsense again. You have not crushed anything. In fact, you have still not even answered the one question I have asked you many times now.
Before we continue this – can you answer the one question I have asked you? Or are you unable to answer? Because the answer you give will make you look a complete idiot?
You don’t even know how to have a reasonable debate. You have no experience of your own and just quote others like “others have seen…”. What have YOU seen? What is your experience? Nothing – just all hearsay!
“I crushed your Sant Mat 2.0 theory and thumped it into the bin. The readers here read it all and your theory stands exposed. ” – Jeff
I am afraid, Jeff, you are seriously delusional. Crushed Sat Mat 2.0? Are you serious? You would have trouble crushing an ice cube.
And you are such an egotist. Like you have accomplished this great feat and crushed Sant Mat 2.0 single handedly. The only thing that has been crushed is your reputation and your ego.
It’s clear to all the readers here that you are delusional and cannot even answer one question that I asked you so many times. Do yourself a favour and answer the question before you write again.
“You have failed to understand that Duality and ONENESS do co-exist” – Jeff
Again the statements you make are nonsense. You gave no context to the statement. ONENESS is the truth – it is ALWAYS. Duality is what we experience in THIS MOMENT. It appears to be real just as a dream appears to be real while it is happening.
The truth is that the dream is unreal (because it ends). The truth is Duality is unreal (because it ends).
Certainly duality appears to co-exist with oneness, in the sense that duality (everything we see and experience) appears to be real (exists) in this moment.
However, ONENESS is the reality and duality is the illusion (maya).
“You have failed to understand both past and present Sant Mat teachings.” – Jeff
What utter bullshit you continue to write. I have a new perspective based on realization. I understand the teachings very well. I have been in RSSB since I was a child. It was Mrs Wood who appointed me a national speaker. Obviously she did not do that because I failed to understand the teachings.
Just because I am pointing out that the teachings are different – does not mean that I do not understand the old and new teachings.
I am simply saying that the current master has added an element of the advaita teachings to the old teachings. Only an idiot would deny that because you can just go to any satsang of his and hear him making those statements.
If you are still unsure, then have the courage to ask him a question yourself. Or are you too afraid? And prefer to just write unfounded nonsense and make pointless unfounded arguments on here?
“May I ask you below questions now:
1. How many satsangs of the present Great One have you heard? Satsangs not Q&A.
2. Do you consider yourself a satsangi or an Exer?” – Jeff
1: More than you would imagine. Besides – anyone can hear his satsangs as often as they choose now because plenty of people have recorded them and put them on youtube. Both satsangs and Q&A. So it’s a bit of a pointless question.
2: I consider myself neither a satsangi nor an “exer” Of course I used to be a satsangi and I used to meditate and go to satsang every week and was even an approved national speaker. I am sure that qualifies me to at least have an understanding of the teachings.
I don’t consider myself an “exer” because I am not against RSSB. I have no bitterness against it. I have nothing against the current master. In fact, as I have pointed out in my videos, I like the new teachings. Jim also appears to think I have something against RSSB.
I am sorry if I don’t fit neatly into one of those categories for you – deal with it.
Just because I have pointed out that the current master has changed the traditional teachings – doesn’t mean that I don’t understand them!

I was going through some past postings here on church of the churchless
and came across this website
http://wayofmystics.webs.com/thepath.htm
some interesting artists impressions of the regions there.
Osho was a non-serious master – simply playing. It is very different from someone who is trying to give out certain teachings.
check this out as an example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHgNVRnkO88

To Osho: I apologize for indicating you are an Anti-RSSBer. Other than your Oneness/Duality Rhetoric that is very confusing to Seekers who may be marked for Gurinder Singh, and have not yet decided if he is a Oneness Advaita Teacher, or a Sant Mat Master , over seeing RSSB under the direction of his Master, Charan Singh, confuses Seekers, and challenges Charan Initiates who still retain the Old School Duality Teaching of Master Charan that, even after an Initiate is fortunate enough to have accessed Sach Khand, i.e., Sat Nam, as soul, and has shed his/her body/mind, those cleansed souls still recognise each other there, so surely indicates they are still Individual souls in the Oneness of the ONE.
Seekers who are under conviction that Sant Mat Philosophy is the Pure Path to Salvation and have decided they want to be initiated in to the Path described by Dr. Julian Johnson, after reading his Book, ” The Path of The Masters”, as I once did, very well could avoid seeking Initiation from Gurinder Singh in the RSSB , ( which I believe to be the present purest example of Sant Mat on earth ) , and avoid him, because you have convinced them he is a Vedanta Advaita Teacher. Then, they would waste years of time, like both you and I did, by going to a less authorized Master to seek initiation by.
I think you have a pure heart, Osho, and most likely forgot more about Old time Sant Mat, than I will ever know in this life. You are fortunate, as an Indian knowing the language, can hear and read Gurinder Singh’s Talks given in Hindi, first hand, unlike we Westerners who have to rely on 2nd hand translations.
But, I have other Corroborations to seal my Faith in the Sant Mat that I subscribe to. ( which you don’t have )
So, let us not become enemies who are on the same Path , but have ventured on to different side trails. Let us remain Brothers of The One,………” Ultimately.” 😇😍

Jim Sutherland wrote:
“So, let us not become enemies who are on the same Path , but have ventured on to different side trails. Let us remain Brothers of The One,………”
I am not your enemy, and I have no enmity towards anyone here – no matter which side of the fence they are on.
As for anyone avoiding RSSB because of my comments – that is not likely. You really think that what is destined to happen can be changed by my comments?
I am not saying that Gurinder is now a Vedanta or Advaita teacher. He clearly is not. I am simply pointing out that He gives considerable weight to the ONENESS view. More than previous and other existing sant mat teachers.
This is quite obvious, and is helpful for the seeker to see. Certainly it is not grounds to stop seeking initiation if someone is so inclined.
I am not out to convince anyone to leave or stay. It is just that my path to truth was different. However, I am not here to convince anyone else.
Those who are marked souls for Gurinder; you really think I can unmark them just by writing a few words on my keyboard?

Thanks, Osho Robbins, for those thoughtful responses. Taking all of what you said at face value, I do get a vague half-sense of what you’re driving at (unless that’s simply my own subconscious trying to ensure that I get to carry some kind of “meaning” out of this conversation, no matter what!), although, like you say, holes do still remain in my understanding, wide ones.
Two instances, two people, come to mind, on reading what you wrote (again, working on the assumption that I’m not wrong to take what you say at face value). The first, of course, is Jiddu Krishnamoorty. I’ve often wondered what he meant by the choiceless-awareness refrain of his. Is it merely a dropping of “conditionings” (like you yourself say, more than once), simply a dropping away of ideas of god, and self, and perhaps, along with our good pastor Brian, of free will as well? 🙂 If that’s all it is, then aren’t we making too much of a simple (albeit very important) thing, convoluting something easily enough expressed? The second instance I’m thinking of is of Ananda, who was all overcome with grief at Buddha’s passing away, and with despair because he still hadn’t ‘got it’, despite his long years with his cousin and master. They tie him up, or lock him up, and keep him starving, or something weird like that (I forget the details), and at that nadir of his life, he suddenly ‘gets it’, and walks through the walls and floats out, finally attained to arahant-hood. Obviously a fictitious magical story, but the metaphor, the meaning aimed at within the parable, is rather touching.
I couldn’t watch those links you gave me, since watching video links is a bit of an issue at my end here. The bit about the agree/disagree-“outsiders” and the agreement-per-se-isn’t-relevant-“insiders” (that you talk of) made sense, though. I’ve read some stuff of Osho’s myself (as who hasn’t ?!), and been impressed by the man’s depth and range (as well as his inconsistency, which he himself has said — perhaps craftily or perhaps very wisely, I don’t know which — is deliberate) and visited the Poona ashram/resort twice (although only short visits, without really immersing myself in the experience there).
I’ve enjoyed our conversation, and will be happy to read anything else you may wish to say about this, but I’m sensing that we may be nearing the limits of what a conversation can convey (in this context, and at this time), so I shan’t try to explore any further “holes”. Although one last question I think I will still have to ask :
What, ultimately, do you think is the point, the *use* if you will, of all this seeking and finding and not-finding? In what concrete way is the enlightened person any better off than one who isn’t, well, enlightened? Do you subscribe to the whole rebirth-reincarnation narrative, and believe this shows you a way out, is that it? If your answer is simply peace of mind, then that’s a good answer, but there are scores of other ways to attain to it. But I won’t try to pre-empt your answer any more, and request you to talk about it in your own way, without any further comment from me.

Thanks for that comprehensive answer, Jim. That’s fascinating, your John-Bunyan-ish accounts of your internal struggles with those entities, which you say you’ve overcome with the aid of the Mantra.
You’re right, perhaps, when you say I am over-thinking this, I don’t know. But then most things, right from a child learning to swim or to ride a bicycle, right through to actual rocket science to Advaita to Sant Mat, are simple once you know them (or, to look at this differently, buy into them) already, but take a great deal of effort to try to understand when you are still on the outside.
You’re right, too, that Tantra and Sant Mat don’t seem to be mutually experience, not wholly. Although there definitely are many points of divergence, both in the theory/theology and in the specifics of the practice. On specific “positive” that I find in RSSB is that, unlike Tantrism, it is relatively free of ritual. It could simply be a function of their far older provenance, but Tantric schools are all chock full of all kinds of rituals!
Although disinterested and impersonal, my interest in all this isn’t wholly idle or academic. I too do indulge a bit in this meditation business, across a few traditions, but without really buying into any of their respective dogmas. I don’t have your unwavering faith (and, it must be said, I haven’t had your apparent success either at attaining the fruits of meditation). Understanding what “all this” is all about, by looking at how others do it : I think it makes sense to try to do that. These conversations are fun and enlightening, but can go on in an endless loop! So if you’ll allow me, one last final question and comment from me to you?
One thing that I find curious about Sant Mat is the sheer number of factions they have. Each faction has it’s own GIHF. You obviously believe that Babaji Gurinder Singh is the true GIHF. Do you have any thoughts about the other GIHFs within Sant Mat? Do you think they’re charlatans, or at least seriously deluded, or what? How is it that other Gurus of other Sant Mat traditions also sometimes seem to project this Inner Guru? (I know what David Lane would say to this, and also what Brian would say to this : but theirs is the skeptic’s / unbeliever’s / disillusioned point of view : can you tell me what you yourself think about this?

One Inititated, thanks for your comment. I just noticed it as I was about to log out from here. The nice formatting drew my attention : You seem to have posted this quite a while back, I can’t imagine how I missed it!
I have to rush off now, I’m going to be traveling actually : and your careful and detailed comment deserves far more attention than I can give it just now. I’m looking forward to going through it later on.
Meanwhile, thanks much for taking the trouble to respond!

Dear All,
I was initiated by Baba Ji in the mid 90s and I can tell you by personal inner experience that He is a True Master. He appeared to me in His radiant form and I was able to fly the blue skies with Him at a supersonic speed, until huge mass of light appeared which I could not bear, thereby losing concentration I came out of my state. Master appeared so radiant as if giving light to the entire creation. It was not a dream as I was more awake than ever.
I don’t know if there are any other Perfect Masters on this planet, but He surely is One. Upon seeing His glory within, there is no scope of any doubt!
I have been a reader on this site but thought my post maybe of some worth to curious minds here.
Wishing love, light and happiness!

Osho,
Let me ask you a straight forward question. Based upon your observation of the “evolution” in GSD’s “teachings” / “controversial (sometimes contradicting) statements”, what do you think of him – is he genuine or is he fake?

Appreciative Reader writes:
“Taking all of what you said at face value, I do get a vague half-sense of what you’re driving at”
A vague sense is the best you can hope for.
because I am not driving at anything.
No answer can ever satisfy.
In zen it is said “All teachings are false – even true ones”
and “only those teachings have value that lead you to truth”
Appreciative Reader:
“although, like you say, holes do still remain in my understanding, wide ones.”
It is very easy to find holes, because they are everywhere. Those who seek truth find it within the holes. Truth cannot be said – only danced around.
The wise man speaks from his wisdom. The seeker jumps on that wisdom and reduces it to knowledge (a conclusion) and misses the wisdom.
Appreciative Reader:
“What, ultimately, do you think is the point, the *use* if you will, of all this seeking and finding and not-finding?”
You ask very good questions. There is no point. It is the conditioned mind which creates and seeks meaning. There is no meaning except the meaning you create.
This is the trap. Seeking benefit. It is the “I” which seeks because it is always hungry.
First it wants things of the world: money, things, relationships, recognition.
Then when these don’t satisfy it searches for a spiritual answer.
But the greed remains the same. Now it wants Powers, Mukti, Sach Khand, Peace, mastery over emotions etc.
Nothing has changed – still the same greed.
Enlightenment is the final end of all seeking – because there is nothing to seek. Now you become just ordinary. No longer seeking to be special. Not trying the be a Christ or a Buddha – you are now simply yourself.

Avi asks:
“Based upon your observation of the “evolution” in GSD’s “teachings” / “controversial (sometimes contradicting) statements”, what do you think of him – is he genuine or is he fake?”
I am impressed by him. I enjoy the conversations I have had with him on the microphone. I mean it beats the hell out of the normal sant mat answer to just meditate and get to Sach Khand.
He has added a new slant and I find it refreshing.
Of course, as some readers have pointed out here – the previous masters have also said the same thing.
However, there is a big difference. The difference is the emphasis.
Let me explain.
When I used to listen to the local satsangs as a child, they were very different from now. The speakers would refer to the regions and the inner journey. There would be a pathi who recites the gurbani. The speaker would say “This is a reference to the second region” or something similar and describe the journey of the soul.
Now this does not happen. Why? Because Gurinder has made it clear that the regions are not literal. The speakers do not talk to regions anymore – but more of realization.
How could I call Gurinder a fake when he is changing the teachings to reflect a higher understanding?
A fake would just carry on and not upset the cart.
I don’t think the word ‘fake’ is appropriate.
Brian did a posting about the four ‘L’s
Lord, Liar, Legend, and Loyalist.
As far as Charan Singh is concerned – I have a different take on it.
He DID make it clear – and many times, that he was just an ordinary man.
He first tried to run away. He had a book printed before he left the physical body to make it clear that he was shocked when he got the gaddi.
He was a loyalist. He did his duty to the best of his ability.
He could hardly just walk away because he had a duty to his own guru. He make it clear that he had no special powers.
I don’t see Gurinder claiming any powers. He is giving out the teachings and tells people not to put him on a pedestal.
Not exactly how a ‘fake’ would behave.
And what reason is there for anyone to be bitter?
If they followed the path – it was out of choice.
I followed it for most of my life – I am not bitter.
I am grateful because it was a great foundation and it was an essential part of my journey.

App. Reader asks Jim to answer, or,……Spin”One thing that I find curious about Sant Mat is the sheer number of factions they have. Each faction has it’s own GIHF. You obviously believe that Babaji Gurinder Singh is the true GIHF. Do you have any thoughts about the other GIHFs within Sant Mat? Do you think they’re charlatans, or at least seriously deluded, or what? How is it that other Gurus of other Sant Mat traditions also sometimes seem to project this Inner Guru? (I know what David Lane would say to this, and also what Brian would say to this : but theirs is the skeptic’s / unbeliever’s / disillusioned point of view : can you tell me what you yourself think about this?”
Jim tries to answer with out Spinning: These are difficult questions to answer. If I , or any one else could PROVE that GSD was GIHF, then I would go on TV and all the News Media, and Proclaim, ” The Good News” i.e. The Gospel of Salvation , that ” Who so ever believes in Him, will be saved.” That’s what the Apostles of Jesus did. But, since there are no outer miracles to observe, then, no Seeker can come to ANY Master unless The Father draws him/her, to that particular Master. Jesus told his Desciples the same. So, FAITH is initially required to approach ANY man, considered by his followers to be GIHF.
So, first, Faith in the Path, which includes the Philosophy/Theology of Sant Mat , as compared to all other Religions and Philosophies. And there are plenty of those. For me, I started as a Catholic, offered to the god of my mother, as a baby, sprinkled, or Baptized by a Priest in the Catholic Church. Then, brought up as a Catholic, having First Communion, Confirmation, and even became an Altar Boy from age 11-16. I even considered becoming a Priest,…. until my male hormones took my body hostage, and I discovered the opposite sex!
Then, I lost interest completely, in religeon, joined the Air Force , married, and my Fate was sealed! Once married, a job is required, children are born, all must be supported, and my life or choices were survival choices, not desired choices. Competed in the Jungle world, and lived a normal life until age 35, when I had what Christians call a ” Born Again Experience. ” I became interested in God and religeon again, quit drinking Alcohol, using tobacco, and have never touched with since. The rest of my history is on my blog.
I had to do my own search for a Living Master the same as all Seekers do, who first, become convinced by Faith, that Sant Mat is the Camino Real to Salvation. I have posted here, how I came to Charan Singh, and how he came to me. My Faith in him, as my GIHF has been established. So, I can not prove that to any one else, let alone, prove that Gurinder Singh is now, GIHF to other seekers.
I don’t think the other Sant Mat Masters think they are Charlatans. They are no different than I am. They have discovered God, as they understand God, and feel compelled to share what they think is real, with other Seekers who are still seeking , but have not yet found what they are searching for. For me, I do what I do, because I feel like I found Gold in my yard, and can’t dig it up fast enough to share with my friends! I am not a Charleton. I have never taken a Dime from any Seeker. Follow the money. You will know the Charletons from the genuine Masters by following the money!
But, until a Seeker meets the Master that initiated him/her inside, in the Radiant Form, not just as a glimpse of a face after concentrating on a Photo or TV Screen for hours, then, I don’t think complete Faith will be sealed by any Disciple until that occurs. Until then, the faith is akways shaky, on the fence, so to speak, with the seekers always looking for other Masters, depending on credibility of that Master and his followers. So, in summary, I really don’t think the search ever ends, until the Desciple has an experience of the Radiant form, inside. If desciples of other Masters are seeing their Radiant Forms inside, then, I would think, there must be more than one Master at a time in human form. So, until a seeker finds one, Faith is required, along with the Testimony of the Masters following him. If no one is seeing the Radiant Form, and is following the Path and the Vows, then either they are following a Charleton, or are Reprobates not marked to return Home this life, and must have more Karma to balance, too much for any Master to accept.
That’s the best I can think of, or comes to mind presently. Caveat Emptore.

Augustine,
Last year in a Q&A session in Spain, Babaji in response to questions answered that there are no Perfect Masters and further he was not a Master, albeit he was a simple teacher assigned with this job for which he never applied for.
Maybe his teachings are not the same for all. Of course his discourses are totally different in India and in the West.
Good Luck to all.

Augustine wrote:
“Last year in a Q&A session in Spain, Babaji in response to questions answered that there are no Perfect Masters and further he was not a Master, albeit he was a simple teacher assigned with this job for which he never applied for.”
A charlatan would not make such a statement. I mean there are people on this site that make more claims than Gurinder.
If anyone chooses to follow the path – they have freely made that choice. He is playing his part and he even says “I am not coming at the time of death.”
That is not a good marketing move since it’s one of the major benefits of being a RSSB follower. Only an honest person would make that statement. It does not benefit him.
Most other sant mat masters would not dream of saying they are not a perfect master and that they are not coming at the time of death.

Tremendous statement Mr Robbins
For sure He has many serendipities .
He is The Beloved of the SatGuru Charan Singh Ji Maharaji, . . for sure too
And HE doen”t come because HE is there already 🙂 – 🙂
777

“” But YOU cannot drop the mind – and there is no HOW. “”
Any puber know how to drop . . . . by LOVE
So, the question is : ” How to obtain the Crush ”
not by reasoning
certainly by :
Wow Augustine ( like “Confessiones, . . Thou being my helper “) :
“until huge mass of light appeared which I could not bear, thereby losing concentration I came out of my state. Master appeared so radiant as if giving light to the entire creation.”
really worth googling from Saint Auggustinus”
So . .
I liked Augustine’s story a lot
It generates mega, giga, tera useful Love
remember the man who stayed at the door when a Master
stayed a whole night with that prostitute the whole night and all disciples were gone
“I have no place to go” . . . he said

Clarification
” the double “the whole night” in my last comment is certainly Freudian ”
777

“And HE doen”t come because HE is there already “ -777
Naturally the ONE is everywhere and at all times, as it is beyond time and space. However, the disciple is seeking the radiant form of the master. If he has meditated and sees the radiant form every day – he will not go to the mic to ask if the radiant form will come at death (as he sees it already every day).
If the disciples has never seen the radiant form or only occasionally (which is by far the majority of disciples) he is asking Gurinder Singh to confirm that the radiant form will come at death. The disciple is seeking re-assurance so he can carry on with his life in the assurance that the afterlife is taken care of.
Gurinder does not give that re-assurance.
Some take this to mean that the radiant form is definitely coming – and Gurinder is lying because he wants us to mediate. That also is not the case.
Gurinder has said many times that He cannot come since there is only the ONE.
He further elaborates that THE ONE cannot come and go, and you have to realise the ONE, you have to realise that the ONE is all there is, and there is no separate soul.
To say He is already there is to go directly against what Gurinder Singh says.
He could also say “Don’t worry guys, the radiant form is with you always and will become visible at death and take your soul on the inner journey.”
But He doesn’t.
That would make His life easier if He said that and stop the barrage of questions.
Many people also ask for grace.
He could easily say “Don’t worry, it’s all taken care of. As long as you have faith in me, I will come at death. You just try your best to meditate and leave the rest to me.”
But he doesn’t make those statements.
Instead he tells the disciples what they DON’T want to hear. That single act makes him stand out as authentic. He cares about the truth, and therefore cannot be a “fake”.
The disciples continue to manipulate what he says to make it fit their comfortable beliefs. That is plain and clear just by the fact that many disciples think I am making all this up despite the huge amount of evidence.
Many like Jeff even think I am giving out my own teachings and I have some hidden agenda and want people to follow me.
I mean – perhaps I didn’t hear him right once or twice. But he says it pretty much every satsang. And he says it to others – not just me. And others have heard it too.
That is why someone asked him specifically “Please don’t break our heart by saying you are not coming at the time of death.”
Why would that question even arise if He never made that statement in the first place?
Actually it is not the disciple’s heart he is breaking – he is taking him out of his comfort zone.
I mean it’s a major problem for most disciples. They have lived for many years with the comfortable idea that the master comes at death and takes the soul. Now if the master says “No, you are mistaken” excuse my French – they are screwed.
So what the disciples do is DENY he ever said it. When that door closes, they find another reason like Jeff stated “He means that He is not coming in his physical body”
Well of course He is not coming in His physical body. That would be impossible. That is why I asked Jeff several times to answer the question, which was “How can He possibly be clarifying something that is just too obvious. He is not an idiot.”
Obviously Jeff must think He is an idiot if he really thinks that is what Gurinder Singh was doing (just clarifying that He is not coming physically).
More likely Jeff just wrote that without thinking clearly which is why he doesn’t answer the question.
Gurinder is taking the disciples out of their comfort zone. And they don’t like it, one bit.
They love their comfort – as we all do.
But like one of my spiritual masters once said to me “Do you want comfort – or do you want Truth?”
Most want comfort. It is much easier to handle than the truth.
There is another objection to Gurinder Singh’s statement that the master does not come at death. Many disciples know of people who at death claimed that the Master has come.
How can this be the case, when He is saying “I am not coming?”
They conclude He must be lying.
But there is another explanation.
Gurinder said in response to my question, that NIRGUN is the goal, the truth. SARGUN is the means.
All forms, including the radiant form is SARGUN (the means). So while you might see the radiant form – it is YOU who is creating it. It is not really there.
Of course the disciple will say “I know it’s real”
Or “It remains even when I say simran”
However it is SARGUN – and everything in sargun is unreal.
That includes anything that you can see, with these eyes or inner eyes.
All forms are sargun including the Radiant form.
Gurinder has said many times that the ultimate is to realise the ONE.
Everything else is just the means.
So Radiant forms, regions, inner visions, whatever you might have achieved – is all maya – is all sargun, by definition.
It doesn’t matter if it took you years to attain.
It doesn’t matter that you saw this while awake not asleep.
It doesn’t matter if you claim it is real.
You yourself are unreal and part of maya. Everthing that is born and dies is maya and sargun.
So if you are unreal, how can your claim be real?
And if you drop the “I” (which is unreal) then who is left to make the claim?
Someone may say I am just playing with words.
But I am not.
Or if I am – when aren’t we all?
Words can only point.
In Zen it is said “The Master is a finger pointing to the moon”
And you grab the finger.
And you miss the moon.
You hold onto the words and the concepts.
And you miss the REAL (the ONE).
Besides the ONE – all is unreal.
The SARGUN path is your play thing until you realize the ONE.
It is light entertainment for the mind.
Gurinder Singh’s answer made this clear.
Seeing the radiant form, having inner visions, flying around in your astral body, exploring astral and higher regions, getting to Sach Khand;
I understand that it’s exciting stuff – but it is just the means.
All this is the MEANS not the end, according to Gurinder Singh.
The END according to Him is the ONE – realization of the ONE.
If this is incorrect – then ASK HIM!
Instead of asking him for grace, ask him for the truth!
No point in arguing with me – ask the source directly.
And if HE agrees with what I just wrote, what’s your next step?

To many earlier comments where Babaji said “I am not the perfect master. There are no perfect masters”
When Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj, after 17 years of hardship in finding the perfect master, finally reached at the feet of Soami Ji Maharaj and said “I am here to meet the perfect master and I have heard about your grandeur” to this Soami Ji replied: “I am sorry to disappoint you, but no perfect master is here… talking about me ? I am the servant of the saints”
Later HE replied: “The Saint Nanak never called himself the perfect master and I am only HIS servant”
And later, Jaimal Singh Ji said: “Let me be a servant to the servants of the saints”
For a seeker of truth, it’s not hard to interpret that servant of the servants of the saints, servant of the saints and saints are all just synonymous here and only a greatest representation of how humble the true saints the perfect masters are in actuality.
777
My dear loving elder brother.
Very true and what a beautiful incident to remember and learn from.
The Master was Hazrat Nizamuddin and the disciple was Amir Khusro.
Amir Khusro’s poems are amongst the top spiritual poetry specially in India.
Osho Robbins
I think you have greatly and rightly emphasized upon all the Sargun is means (only means) and the reality is realizing the One.
Also you just mentioned “I understand that it’s exciting stuff – but it is just the means.”
So when you admit and accept that this all is exciting stuff, then why to ignore all this exciting stuff ?
Why not enjoy this excitement of meeting the Radiant Form of Master,
going through all the journey of inner realms and reaching the Sach Khand.
As being said, below Sach Khand, everything is perishable… but at least above the Physical and below the Sach Khand, everything is so exciting, why can’t we also enjoy the journey also by keeping our focus on reaching to the One ?
Just like visiting the City of Simla (in Himachal Pradesh, India), the journey of reaching Simla is as beautiful as the Simla City. And I think every single person who visits Simla equally enjoys the beauty of the journey as well.
I have seen no single person who says your focus should only be on the final destination, although that is correct, but that to me somehow sounds a little disrespecting for the Master’s Physical and Radiant Form.
And I should not end this without mentioning that it’s correct everything is perishable below Sach Khand excluding: Naam, Master & Soul.
And if Master and Soul are also made up of Naam, they are already one, but in unrealized form. And it’s a sheer joy that after millions of years of hardship, finally the Soul is observing it’s unity with the Master and the Naam because of the selfless act and kindness of the Master.
With this analysis, the Master really deserves much much much more respect and honor in the very Physical plane as well.

Osho, you mentioned, “Realization of the ONE.”
— Is this Realization rooted in the workings of the Mind or brain? It takes the Mind to create the word, Realization. Outside the brain and workings of the mind, how would one know one has Realization?

To the Oneness Devotees, I believe I present a much more reasonable, and believable view of dealing with what we are presently doing ( living ) than imagining we are not here, living as individuals experiencing Duality.
Eat, Drink, and Make Merry, for Tomorrow We May Die Lost For Ever!
Atheists argue that they are able to live moral, productive lives with out Faith in survival of consciousness after death of their bodies in present lives.
Christians, believe that they are transferred to Heaven by Faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross 2000 plus years ago. ( Where ever Heaven is, remains vague. ) They believe those with out faith in what Jesus did for them suffer in Hell,…..where ever Hell is.
Most Eastern Religions teach that individual souls Reincarnate or Transmigrate to other physical bodies after death of present bodies, based on Karma created from present and past lives, until all Karmic actions are exhausted, by various methods too complicated to describe in this Article. But the final Goal is to return to the One Creator of all life.
Krishna Consciousness Teachers do not subscribe to the “Oneness” teaching of Advaitists that Individually of souls are ever completely lost or absorbed in to the Whole. ( of which I also agree, along with the Krishna Folk and Spiritists)
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Advaita (Oneness)
0Reading Complexity:
Dvaita means “dual,” and advaita means “nondual.” The material world is a world of dualities—heat and cold, happiness and distress, up and down, black and white. According to the Vedic literature, however, theAbsolute Truth is free from all such material dualities. It is called advaita.
Some philosophers hold the view that because the Absolute is free from dualities, it must be totally impersonal and devoid of qualities. According to this view, known as Advaita Vedanta, in the Absolute there can be no desires, thoughts, or perceptions, no sense of personal identity, no forms, qualities, or activity, but only undifferentiated spiritual oneness. This being so, whatever we now perceive is illusory.
But this view raises a question which Advaita Vedantists can’t answer, “If nothing really exists but one undifferentiated Absolute Truth, where does the illusion of variety come from? How can illusion exist (or even appear to exist)? And if truth and illusion both exist, how can there be oneness?”
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Our view is that the Absolute Truth manifests itself in unlimited diversity. The Absolute is void of material characteristics, but that doesn’t mean that it has no characteristics at all.
The Absolute Truth is understood to have a multitude of energies. But because the Absolute is spiritual, these energies are ultimately spiritual, too. In this way, there is oneness between the energies and their source. The varieties we perceive are not illusions; they are energies of the Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, Krishna.
Our vision may also be enlightened by truth or bewildered by illusion, according to our own desires. This, too, is made possible by Krishna, through His energies. As parts of Krishna, we are naturally meant to serve Krishna, and when we do so we are in perfect oneness with the Absolute Truth. But when we separate ourselves from Krishna we plunge ourselves into illusion and duality. We attain liberation from illusion and duality by surrendering to Krishna, accepting Him as advaita, “one without a second.”
As every aging human contemplating death of their present bodies, they all eventfully must:
Choose between three theoretic alternatives: Annihilation, Absorption, or the individuality of the soul before and after death. It is to this last belief that we are led by reason; and it is this belief that has constituted the basis of all religions in all the ages of the world.
I choose to believe in the Combination of Allan Kardec’s Spiritist Philosophy and Sant Mat, or what s called “The Path of The Masters.”
The Following is taken from Allan Kardec’s Spiritist book, Heaven and Hell, and offers very reasonable arguments regarding survival of individual Personalities.
“1. It is certain that we live, think, and act; it is no less certain that we shall die. But, on quitting the earth, whither shall we go? What will become of us? Shall we be better off, or shall we be worse off? Shall we continue to exist, or shall we cease to exist? “To be, or not to be,” is the alternative presented to us; it will be for always, or not at all; it will be everything, or nothing; we shall live on eternally, or we shall cease to live, once and forever. The alternative is well worth the consideration.
Every one feels the need of living, of loving, of being happy. Announce, to one who believes himself to be at the point of death, that his life is to be prolonged, that the hour of death is delayed—announce to him, moreover, that he is going to be happier than he has ever been—and his heart will beat high with joy and hope. But to what end does the human heart thus instinctively aspire after happiness, if a breath suffices to scatter its aspirations?
Can anything be more agonizing that the idea that we are doomed to utter and absolute destruction, that our dearest affections, our intelligence, our knowledge so laboriously acquired, are all to be dissolved, thrown away, and lost forever? Why should we strive to become wiser or better? Why should we lay any restraint on our passions? Why should we weary ourselves with effort and study, if our exertions are to bear no fruit? If, erelong, perhaps tomorrow, all that we have done is to be of no further use to us? Were such really our doom, the lot of mankind would be a thousand times worse than that of the brutes; for the brute lives thoroughly in the present, in the gratification of its bodily appetites, with no torturing anxiety, no tormenting aspiration, to impair its enjoyment of the passing hour. But a secret and invincible intuition tells us that such cannot be our destiny.
2. The belief in annihilation necessarily leads a man to concentrate all his thoughts on his present life; for what, in fact, could be more illogical than to trouble ourselves about a future which we do not believe will have any existence? And as he whose attention is thus exclusively directed to his present life naturally places his own interest above that of others, this belief is the most powerful stimulant to selfishness, and he who holds it is perfectly consistent with himself in saying: “Let us get the greatest possible amount of enjoyment out of this world while we are in it; let us secure all the pleasures which the present can offer, seeing that, after death, everything will be over with us; and let us hasten to make sure of our own enjoyment, for we know not how long our life may last.” Such as one is, moreover, equally consistent in arriving at this further conclusion—most dangerous to the well being of society—“Let us make sure of our enjoyment, no matter by what means; let our motto be: ‘Each for himself;’ the good things of life are the prize of the most adroit.”
If some few are restrained, by respect for public opinion, from carrying out this program to its full extent, what restraint is there for those who stand in no such awe of their neighbors? Who regard human law as a tyranny that is exercised only over those who are sufficiently wanting in cleverness to bring themselves within its reach, and who consequently apply all their ingenuity to evading alike its requirements and its penalties? If any doctrine merits the qualifications of pernicious and anti-social, it is assuredly that of annihilation, because it destroys the sentiments of solidarity and fraternity, sole basis of the social relations.
3. Let us suppose an entire nation to have acquired, in some way or other, the certainty that, at the end of a week, a month, or a year, it will be utterly destroyed, that not a single individual of its people will be left alive, that they will all be utterly annihilated, and that not a trace of their existence will remain; what, in such a case, would be the line of conduct adopted, by the people thus doomed to a certain and foreseen destruction, during the short time which they would still have to exist? Would they labor for their moral improvement, or for their instruction? Would they continue to work for their living? Would they scrupulously respect the rights, the property, and the life, of their neighbors? Would they submit to the laws of their country, or to any ascendancy, even to that parental authority, the most legitimate of all? Would they recognize the existence of any duty? Assuredly not. Well, —the social ruin which we have imagined, by the way of illustration, as overtaking an entire nation, is being effected, individually, from day to day, by the doctrine of annihilation. If the practical consequences of this doctrine are not so disastrous to society as they might be, it is because, in the first place, there is, among the greater number of those whose vanity is flattered by the title of “free-thinker,” more of braggadocio than of absolute unbelief, more doubt than conviction, and more dread of annihilation than they care to show; and, in the second place, because those who really believe in annihilation are a very small minority, and are consequently influenced, in spite of themselves, by the contrary opinion, and held in check by the resistant forces of society and of the State: but, should absolute disbelief in a future existence ever be arrived at by the majority of mankind, the dissolution of society would necessarily follow. The propagation of the doctrine of annihilation would lead, inevitably, to this result.
But whatever may be the consequences of the doctrine of annihilation, if that doctrine were true, it would have to be accepted; for, if annihilation were our destiny, neither opposing systems of philosophy, nor the moral and social ills that would result from our knowledge that such a destiny was awaiting us, could prevent our being annihilated. And it is useless to attempt to disguise from ourselves that skepticism, doubt, indifference, are gaining ground every day, notwithstanding the efforts of the various religious bodies to the contrary. But if the religious systems of the day are powerless against skepticism, it is because they lack the weapons necessary for combating the enemy; so that, if their teaching were allowed to remain in a state of immobility, they would, erelong, be inevitably worsted in the struggle. What is lacking to those systems—in this age of positivism, when men demand to understand before believing—is the confirmation of their doctrines by facts and by their concordance with the discoveries of Positive Science. If theoretic systems say white where facts say black, we must choose between an enlightened appreciation of evidence and a blind acceptance of arbitrary statements.
4. It is in this state of things that the phenomena of Spiritism are spontaneously developed in the order of Providence, and oppose a barrier against the invasion of skepticism, not only by argument, or by the prospect of the dangers which it reveals, but also by the production of physical facts which render the existence of the soul, and the reality of a future life, both palpable and visible.
Each human being is, undoubtedly, free to believe anything, or to believe nothing; but those who employ the ascendancy of their knowledge and position in propagating, among the masses, and especially among the rising generation, the negation of a future life, are sowing broadcast the seeds of social confusion and dissolution, and are incurring a heavy responsibility by doing so.
5. There is another doctrine that repudiates the qualification of “Materialist,” because it admits the existence of a principle distinct from matter; we allude to that which asserts that each individual soul is to be absorbed in the Universal Whole. According to this doctrine, each human being assimilates, at birth, a particle of this principle, which constitutes his soul and gives him life, intelligence and sentiment. At death, this soul returns to the common source, and is merged in infinity as a drop of water is merged in the ocean.
This doctrine is, undoubtedly, an advance upon that of pure and simple Materialism, inasmuch as it admits something more than matter; but its consequences are precisely the same. Whether a man, after death, is dissolved into nothingness, or plunged into a general reservoir, is all One, as far as he himself is concerned; ………………
I prefer to be compared as a grain of sand returning to the Beach or Desert, retaining my individuality and accumulated Personality.
A current Sant Mat Guru, Dr. Ishwar Puri, if correct, about our Astral Body living 1-3 thousand years, depending on Karma, and our Causal body living another million years or more, then to me, Soul growth after transition from the physical body most likely happens on other less dense, higher Spiritual planets than Earth, and if we do have to reincarnate, it will be on higher Spiritual Planets as taught by Krishna in The Bhagavad Gita. It all lines up perfectly. You can have your individuality, and KEEP it, not loosing all the positive things and knowledge you have done in this life and past lives.
Live Life and enjoy it to the fullest now, but do consider all life has an expiration date!
Until we meet again, I remain,
Eternal Flame

“Is this Realization rooted in the workings of the Mind or brain? It takes the Mind to create the word, Realization. Outside the brain and workings of the mind, how would one know one has Realization?” – Roger
The mind is part of maya / illusion and time/space.
Everything we experience here is through the mind.
Realization is beyond the mind.
If I realize something here – that realization is within the mind. For example I might say to someone “I did not realize what you meant – I now understand”
In that sense – the word realization is used synonymously with ‘understanding’.
So it kind of means a deeper understanding.
However, realisation of the ONE is different. It is not an intellectual understanding, which is what most people think it is. Hence the question.
Sure, words are used as the means – but the thing itself (except it’s not a thing either), has no relationship to the mind or brain.
HOW would one know?
Good question. I cannot give you an answer.
It’s not even a knowing. Knowing requires a knower and there is no knower and no known.
So what the fuck is it?
I cannot say.
The very attempt to explain is ridiculous. How can that which is beyond mind, beyond time, beyond concepts, beyond words, be explained in words.
This is the real reason it is said that one who knows will not say. It’s not so much that he will not say, but he cannot say.
And even if he does say – it will just be more words. Truth cannot be said.
So in the light of what I have just written
Listen to this video of Osho describing why it cannot be understood – only mis-understood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSMi0whFEA&t=447s

Thanks OSHO,
“However, realization of the ONE is different. It is not an intellectual understanding, which is what most people think it is. Hence the question.”
—-If it is different, then it is dualistic. To say it is different, then one has come to some kind of Mind based understanding.
“It’s not even a knowing. Knowing requires a knower and there is no knower and no known.”
—-One’s Mind reasoned that, “It’s not even a knowing.”
“So what the fuck is it? I cannot say.”
—-True, one can not say, however the dropped F-bomb was well reasoned. Ha Ha…….
“Sure, words are used as the means – but the thing itself (except it’s not a thing either), has no relationship to the mind or brain.”
—-the “thing itself” term was created in one’s mind. Also, the non-thing term.
“The very attempt to explain is ridiculous. How can that which is beyond mind, beyond time, beyond concepts, beyond words, be explained in words.”
—-Excellent, and your Mind/Brain came to such a proper…………Realization of non-Wordage-ness.
“And even if he does say – it will just be more words. Truth cannot be said.”
—-Relative Truth can be discussed all the time. Absolute Truth cannot be said.
Therefore, would “Realization of the One” be a statement that is not necessary?

Roger,
Your arguments and the points you raise are correct.
Because we are discussing it, we are using words. And obviously we are operating in the arena of the mind and duality in the process of discussing it.
“”And even if he does say – it will just be more words. Truth cannot be said.”
—-Relative Truth can be discussed all the time. Absolute Truth cannot be said.” – Roger
Yes – that is true – and we are speaking of the absolute – using words and the mind.
“Therefore, would “Realization of the One” be a statement that is not necessary?” – Roger
Basically – nothing can be said – but since we are discussing it – something has to be said. So we are saying it.
In zen it is called the First Principle. A seeker asks a master If he can say something about the first principle.
The master says “No, because then it would become the second principle”

Well, at 160 comments and counting, (161 now)
this looks like this might just be the post with the most comments ever.
I found this posting
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2013/05/gurinder-singhs-son-become-ceo-of-religare-subsidiary
that has 136 comments – which looks like the previous record,
– but that has taken 4 years – not a few weeks to happen.
So this is obviously a hotly debated and controversial topic to generate such interest.

Yes and Gurinder always cares for Brian. Brian even doesnt comment he just sits back and enjoys attention that he gets.

Gurinder hold ratio for Beyonce…sorry for Brian

Osho, when ever Pot Stirrers show up, that know the right Hot Buttons to push, they get lots of nibbles on their Bait. Oneness Advaita obviously is a controversal issue, no less than God is. You have obviously thrown your Oneness Bait out in to many Ponds. You know which fishing Lore to use in each Pond.
Are you aware or conscious, that while you operate in Duality, that you are continuing to create new Karma for your SELF, with each new action, or non action you take, which will surely delay your arrival to become unconscious, in the Oneness you expect to eventually enter, dropping individual Duality?
Living with out keeping rules, or disregarding to consider what you do, as immoral, illegal, self destructful, or is it helping others to escape Charausi will not put you on the Anami Express!
Or with out keeping the Vows you agreed to do your best to try to keep, when you were accepted for Initiation by Charan Singh, aren’t you just eating, drinking, and making merry, as in my prior post, postponing your arrival to Oneness?
As for the other thread that has the Hot Button discussing Gurinder’s son, and money, do you think Gurinder robs Seekers of their money, and uses it on his own luxury buying Jets, and Rolls Royces as your Guru OSHO did? Why should a Master suddenly become ignorant to the Business world and earning money after becoming the Leader of RSSB? How do you know Gurinder Singh doesn’t earn money using his Buisiness Skills, and uses it to expand RSSB and provide shelter and Solitude to more and more marked seekers?
Instead of fleecing the Flock, and using their donations for his own use, he most likely is earning his money and wealth out side of RSSB activities, and contributing much of it to operating RSSB, along with the help of his Business savy sons.
When Gurinder Singh was appointed by his Uncle to succeed him, to become leader of RSSB, why would a Business savy man suddenly loose his Business expertise, and ability to earn money and prosper?
Hopefully, Gurinder will appoint his successful Son to suceed him, and continue the Family Blood Line, rather than turning RSSB over to an unknown, or leaving it to some self proclaimed guru, trying to take over RSSB, as Kirpal Singh did, when Sawan Singh passed, and appointed some one Kirpal thought was unworthy. We all know how that turned out!

One Initiated, that was truly beautiful! I mean your detailed account up there, written in response to my request. Thank you.
Your experiences themselves were, well, beautiful, and there really isn’t anything else for anyone to say there about it, except to enjoy the beauty of it. These accounts are inspirational for anyone on the spiritual path, even if that path is different from yours. Once again, thanks.
The reason you put forth for not allowing general discussion about experiences, as well as the provision of spaces for discussion when needed for the strictly utilitarian reasons (those elderly Gyanis of yours, for instance), those make sense to me. That is, if you were to accept the RSSB premise, I can see no outright inconsistency there.
On small quibble/question from someone with much less knowledge of these things than you : my impression was that RSSB practice centers around the Ajna Chakra. You on the other hand talk about the Crown Chakra there (which I guess would correspond with the Sahasrara of Tantric and Kundalini schools). Is it that you graduate from the one to the other in RSSB meditation?
That was just a very minor detail that I found curious, and is certainly no critique of your whole rather lovely post, just a request to clear up a small detail.

Jim, thanks for your answer. You’re saying that other Sant Mat Gurus also would probably be GIHFs if it so happens that they too project out their Radiant Selves. Sound reasonable. That would mean, per your paradigm and basis your own argument, that RSSB isn’t necessarily the only bona fide Sant Mat path, as far as you yourself know.
I don’t know what you meant, in your reply to me, when you spoke of “spin”. Do you think I’m trying to obliquely trip you up in some way? I assure you I’m not : I can barely walk straight enough my own self in this world, without remotely wanting in any way to impede *anyone* else’s walking as they think fit, neither you nor Osho Robbins nor anyone else. I only asked about non-RSSB Radiant Forms because I was curious, nothing more ; and the context was the Radiant Form of Thakar that came up in the course of your discussion with Osho Robbins.
Incidentally, did you read One Initiated’s long and detailed comment, where he talks of experts over at the Dera in Beas, who are competent to field questions and are authorized to give answers about people’s inner experiences? That should be useful to RSSB meditators (but then I guess they’d already know). That same role is played in smaller Tantric schools by the Guru himself — as, I suppose, did happen at RSSB itself in earlier times, when the group was smaller, perhaps during the founder Jaimal Singh’s time. And it makes so much sense. It would be weird if a tradition, any tradition, that gives primacy to meditation and to inner transformation, did not have a mechanism for checking if that meditation was proceeding on course. Apart, I mean, from the inner pointers you told me about earlier on, for which thanks again!
I like how you ended your comment to me. “Caveat emptor”, that does sum it all up when you look at matters religious. (And that is precisely why I go round prying and asking and pettifogging away, even at the risk of perhaps over-thinking simple stuff.) Those two would make a nice pair of mottos for some religious tradition’s escutcheon, each balancing the other one out : Caveat Emptor on top, and Carpe Diem at the bottom.
You know, I’ve said this earlier, and I’ll say this again : despite Brian’s disillusionment with RSSB, and despite Osho Robbins’s recent very competent critique of some elements of the RSSB organization, I myself find this path rather fascinating. I’m already in the midst of some ‘experiments’ of my own, more than one as a matter of fact, else I’d have loved to experiment with the RSSB technique myself! It sounds decidedly appealing to me, in terms of something to at least try out for myself. Perhaps one day, The Force willing?!

Appreciative Reader,
Way too complicated for me. It’s hard for me to keep up with what you are asking. so let me see if I understand.
Are you asking this:
If someone (like, you, for instance) were to read and understand all the advaita theory and shall we say, believe it?
then how is that person any different from me?
is that the essence of what you are asking?

Appreciative Reader,
“Advaita is a nifty philosophical system that, if you buy its basic axiom(s),”
You go on to say, that they are axioms that you personally do not buy into.
Which axioms? Can you elaborate here in detail.

Appreciative Reader writes:
“That is why I had referred to Ramana Maharshi : the “Oneness” *was* his particular domain after all, and although he too did not (or could not) describe that actual state, he did, in straightforward words, describe his early and later experiences, he did talk of how his ego dropped off and what it felt like, and he did explain exactly how all of that contributed to his world-view of Oneness ”
So what? I could also describe many experiences in great detail leading to the ONENESS – however, I don’t for one reason:
they are all irrelevant. The point is NOTHING you do: no technique, no experience, no methodology, no meditation will take you to that state, It cannot. It will all be part of your journey – but once you arrive at the destination, it’s all irrelevant.
When it happens – it happens DESPITE all efforts not because of them.
That is the case with me – I went to many masters (and I don’t mean sant mat masters) and each played his part – then I went through a painful experience which triggered the ONENESS and suddenly it all became instantly clear.
In that moment – all my previous identity disappeared and I became nothing. I dropped all connection to the old me – it was like it was someone else.
If I describe all this in great detail, how does that validate my state? It is all irrelevant.
Again – just words and you can always find holes in wards. You have to have plenty of salt and take all words with a pinch of salt.
“To the specific questions I asked, you’ve said *nothing* at all, although you’ve used very many words to say it in.” – Appreciative Reader
I am afraid it is the same for all “enlightened” people. They all use many words to say nothing. Nothing can be said because for YOU to realize truth, you have to go find a realized person and hang out with him or her and see what happens.
The words that get spoken there are not that significant. Something else happens that I cannot tell you in words.
When Vivekenanda asked Ramakriskna “What is the proof there is a God?” do you know the answer he gave?
He jumped up and said “I am”
What kind of answer is that?
Yet it is the only answer that can be given.
Because the question is theoretical. “What is the proof there is a God”
There is no God, so how can you ask for proof?
Ramakrishna was saying – get to know me – come on the journey and see what happens. No amount of talking is going to help.

Hi Appreciate Reader – thanks for your thoughtful & considered post. You ask some terrific questions! To be honest, these days I have no real inclination, passion or desire to discuss these topics beyond the most superficial level (which all of my previous posts in this thread have been – you’ve been the first to make any remarks requiring of any deeper thought :), either online or in “real life”. Some 17 odd years ago (and for the subsequent 10 odd years), I had an irresistible urge to share/put into writing all my experiences, perhaps more for my own therapeutic benefits than anyone elses. Though I do wonder about the younger me who used to devour all the forum posts over at Radhasoamistudies (and elsewhere) when I myself wasn’t a member or posting…..in some sense, all my posts are a little payback to that younger me who learnt so much, considered so many ideas I myself never considered/was aware of from all those wonderful and fascinating posters……Anyway, all my posts are still there, unedited or deleted. There’s one called “Diary of a Fool (or Madman?)” over at Radhasoamistudies which shares a LOT of my life and experiences, especially in relation to my time with RSSB….
Regardless, on the off-chance you or somebody else is genuinely interested & open-minded, I will struggle to write a post that does your questions justice, without writing a huge novel 🙂
AR: “I’m intrigued by your mention of your apparently diverse “experiences”, some fuelled by certain specific drugs, some not (to paraphrase from one of your comments above). Would you talk of these experiences of yours (or, if they’ve been too numerous, then of those experiences that to you seem the most remarkable or at least those which turned out to be the most pivotal for you personally)? What led you (I mean what process, or what sequence of events or efforts) to such experiences, and what were the experiences actually like?”
Me: Well, sorry, this question could take a lifetime to answer/express and I still wouldn’t be able to succeed! I can only summarise, briefly and quickly: I’ve been obsessed with the concept of “God” and spirituality since I’ve been conscious, aged around 3 or 4. I was born that way, as nobody in my immediate family is religious. I am well known across my entire extended family (around a 100 people?) as being “odd” in that sense (I could be more explicit, easily, but in the context of the mindset of most readers here it will merely be seen as “self-advertisement” or boasting, fair enough….less shared! :). I’ve been meditating, off and on, since aged around 5. I have gone through long periods of no meditation at all, especially when very young to my early twenties. I have also gone through long periods (months) of meditating between 3 to 8 hours a day, as well as practicing sleep and dream practice during the night (one of the 6 Yogas of Naropa in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition). I practiced a wide variety of “western occult” practices from aged around 10 and was able to “astrally project”, lucid dream or OBE virtually at will (or at least within 24 hours of desiring to “OBE”. I’ve had spontaneous visionary experiences since I was aged around 8. The undercurrent to all of these early in life experiences was a deep, deep devotion and love towards a Divinity which often lead me into rapturous states of ecstasy (where, incidentally, I’ve already cried rivers of tears :). At aged around 12 I came across Charan Singh’s “The Path” book and immediately recognised it as the “truth” (and immediately became 100% vegetarian in a family of meat eaters, still am to this day 27 years later! Though I had spontaneously given up meat and even refused it sporadically since being a baby, as my mother often reminded me!). Aged around 17 my devotion went into hyper-drive – I wrote a letter to Gurinder and subsequently became completely obsessed with him. For the next 3 odd years I would have countless visionary “inner experiences” with Gurinder & even Sawan Singh, many intimations of past lives and relations etc I even had one experience of Gurinder which turned out to be a premonition of an exact event later that same day (shared on RSS forum…basically had a dream/vision of Gugu walking up to and past me, sat on the floor on green grass, with folded hands looking me right into the eyes and saying “Radhasoami”. Upon awakening went to do my regular Saturday seva (I mainly used to shovel shit, just about my station in life in general 🙂 at Haynes Park London, and just before we got to the road, I turned to my good, good friend (nay, brother) from those days and said “Baba Ji’s here today” (there was no expectation he would be, it was a regular Saturday)…..now here’s a clue…..I to this day don’t WHY I said that, the words just came out of my mouth before I had consciously thought about them. My friend looked quizzically at me, not saying anything knowing I was quite an odd sort! A few minutes later, when we pull into the grounds, we notice all the cars are being queued in such a way that shows Gurinder was there….I’ll never forget the look on my friend’s face when he said “how did you know?!”…I just smiled and said nothing……he must have read so much into that smile that wasn’t warranted. Smart people be aware; I had absolutely no clue myself! Since that day, I’ve had hundreds of similar experiences in a completely “secular” context. The narrative, theology, dogma etc we read into these experiences is often driven purely by context, we lose the meta-reality, the meta-truth…..anyway, point being later that day Gugu walks past, while I’m sat on grass identical to my dream some 8 hours earlier, with folded hands, within touching distance, looks me into the eye and says “Radhasoami”….EXACTLY as in the dream. I had NEVER seen him that close or in that setting before…….
Well, this is only Q1 and, well, just look! I’m not even half way into shit 🙂 Okay, then I started questioning the deeper truth or reality of my experiences and what they may ultimately mean or signify. I started broadening my information base, I absolutely devoured David Lane’s Neural Surfer website, all of it, in one day’s sitting! The teachings of Faqir Chand especially effected me. I thought Dave’s tale of Chand fascinating and resonated with what I was learning myself from my own experiences and new knowledge (too much to expand). Something wasn’t “quite right” with this path, but I kept that all suppressed deep down as all believers do. Anyway – now pay attention any still reading – through another well known sevadar at Haynes Park who’d been going for years (we’d go in each others cars together for years, unless 2 cars were needed for the local sangat), I was told to come and meet this guy talking about “non-duality” (I’d drifted away from the path myself for about a year I think??). This person appeared out the blue after my not going for a year. At the time I was undergoing some serious physical pains, so bad in fact (aged around 22 or 23?) that I had to leave work and was more or less bed ridden. I went to doctors, hospitals and a dentist, had numerous (around a dozen?) scans etc, but nobody ever could tell me what this may possibly be. I was certain I was going to die. Having been disillusioned with RSSB a while back and more or less becoming a sceptical, nihilist sceptic who thought all inner experiences were delusions, I at no point thought this had anything to do with spirituality or whatever, I just assumed I had cancer or something and docs couldn’t find it. Anyway, I struggled to this meeting with this “non-dual” fellow, which I thought might be interesting. That fellow was our very own Osho Robbins 🙂 During that meeting, we ended up discussing for hours. I would say I had the classic “advaita” realisation of modern times during that discussion. And it is indeed a palpable “thing” that changes everything in one’s perceptual experience, forever, without doubt. And it cannot be explained in words. The very best I can say is that there is no perceptual centre to being (Buddhist realisation of annata or no-self), whereas before, there is. Everything externally remains the same.
Annnyways, I no neo-advaita fan myself, so moving swiftly on. Following that day, over the next days, weeks, months (and years), I had what I would label a non-dual kundalini awakening. The pain would completely disappear (actually, would turn into indescribably intoxicating nectar….as I subsequently found is described in numerous tantric texts) over the next 2 days and has never returned, unless I focus on a specific region in my head……..
Since then, I had had experiences so utterly non-linear and non-human, that I simply do not have the energy to attempt to describe them here. I’ve attempted to do so before, I’m not sure the current context/readers is the most conducive to exciting me enough to describe them. Which, I have to admit is shame….THIS right here is where it’s all happening 🙂 The vast majority have occurred spontaneously……but bearing in mind many of those days I’d been meditating for 8 hours…….
Re. “drugs”, I had taken LSD and mushrooms ostensibly for “recreation” as a teen (though, truly, it was just a manifestation of my desire to explore consciousness). However, since my “kundalini advaita event” some 17 years ago I’ve had zero interest in using anything like that for kicks or recreation. I’ve taken mushrooms twice, DMT once over a period of several days, and Salvia 3 or 4 times in that 17 years and always alone. On each occasion my sole interest was in comparing and contrasting my conscious state “post kundalini” (which was heavily visionary, ecstatic etc) with these substances to both “test” my state and also see if there was a potential connection between my experiences and these chemicals.
DMT, for instance, is a naturally occurring endogenous chemical (meaning it is produced within our own bodies). I read books & watched documentaries about this chemical for around 5 (?) years before I tried it, and that too just the once! Now, I have my own ideas about this chemical, but it is indeed interesting to note that this is produced within our own bodies, is one of only a few chemicals able to cross the brain blood barrier, and if I’m not mistaken there has been some scientific evidence to suggest it is actually produced in the pineal gland (as found in rats). Perhaps all this RS meditation is merely the art of releasing internal DMT?
I mean, come on – has anybody listened to these people recounting their experiences? The only part of the traditional RS spiritual journey narrative that comes anywhere near matching the kind of experience/information these people are having is Soamiji’s Sach Khand and above!!! Some parts are narratively indistinguishable, and narrative is all we have here
Okay, moving on as this is already far too long and time consuming!……
AR: “Also — since you’ve evidently, from your comments, analyzed these things a good deal (rather than simply accepting your experiences, or accepting some doctrinaire explanation about them) — how exactly do you interpret your experiences, and what do you think about them in the larger scheme of things? Have they been of any real use at all to you, and what overall world-view do they lead you towards? (That’s a great many questions, I realize, and a request for a potentially very lengthy answer : so whatever and however much you are comfortable answering here.)”
Me: My ultimate realisation is I really haven’t got a clue about anything at all, but something freaking strange is going on here!! 🙂 I suspect reality will turn out to be far stranger, far more mysterious, far more beautiful than the rather miserable & elitist theology of RS or ANY OTHER existent religion, science or belief that any human has ever conceived of.
Let me say a few things in my defense, over the years I let much nonsense said about me slide, I really have no interest in defending myself, it’s the subject matter that interests me. But in the hope that it may perhaps clarify what I’m saying…….
Many people, many people, have accused me of saying “my experience is better than yours” or “self-advertising” as mentioned in this very thread. And, despite almost never defending myself from this claim, I can very, very easily see why people are saying/seeing it in my posts. I prefer subtlety, and I genuinely think anybody who is to understand and appreciate my posts will see through superficial appearances to what I’m actually saying.
If anybody’s actually understanding what I’m saying, they will notice it’s infinitely more so a “so what” or “okay, that’s nice, but what does that actually mean” rather than thinking I’ve had special experiences. I don’t lie or exaggerate about my experiences, but I also don’t pretend I haven’t had them…precisely because they are so much of “nothing” in my mind. Did I drink a cup of tea today or was it coffee, what is there to be “proud” about either way? What’s the big deal & so what? Intelligent and astute observers may notice that I personally in no way am proud of my own experiences. The most intelligent may notice that I don’t place much value in such experiences at all……there is a deeper truth or reality which isn’t anybody’s property or “experience”.
What is that deeper truth? Well, as I said before, I really haven’t got a clue and it certainly cannot be expressed here! As a tangible manifestation that can be “grokked”, I don’t give the slightest monkeys about Radhasoamis, Islam, Christianity, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, materialism or any other belief system (however much I’m accused of hatred or bitterness by those emotionally invested when I challenge these anthropomorphic belief systems). What DOES remain from “experiences” and insights is a deep sense of CONNECTION. I have no interest whatsoever in the perpetual bliss of Sach Khand nor any fear whatsoever of the hells of Islam or “chaurasi” of Radhasoamis. If there remains even ONE “soul” in any of these places, then what care or concern should I have about my own “soul”? This is a sense of “connection” that is utterly non conceptual, utterly non-dogmatic. It just IS and it needs no justification. (many realisations can & do arise out of this sense of connection, not least of which is the illusion of separateness, karma, reincarnation, individual “souls” etc. An entirely different reality is observed AND lived in….) There is a sense of freedom, liberation, exhilaration that comes with this realisation that cannot be matched when traversing dualistic paths as individual ego-souls…….because duality is incompleteness, fear arises naturally.
In this reality, it is not so much supporting this or that “belief” or “dogma”, it is more about lessening the suffering of all living beings, to the best of our meagre capacities. In this – and I have stated it many times to many people, the only thing I think is of any importance! – I have failed miserably, time and time again. All of my posts online, imo, have been arguments against the suffering of conscious beings. The RSSB narrative, as well as being stunningly naive & demonstrably false – is an elitist one (a narrative for a hyper-inflated ego, if there ever was one!). And you could smell it right the way through the pro-RSSB comments on this thread, From multiple usages of the term “rejects” to thinly veiled threats for criticising the teachings and gurus. Asides from those comments, more importantly, the RSSB world view is a pretty miserable one as well as elitist. God created this virtually eternal hell-hole of “chaurasi” solely for the purpose of escaping it? And how do you escape it? By getting initiated by the “true” master or religion – out of thousands – even it be headed by a multi-millionaire businessman who is as seemingly disparate from the mythological description of a “true master” as it is possible to be!! Seriously, God must be an absolutely evil & demented crackpot if this deeply absurd and patently anthropomorphic narrative is true…..
Okay, getting too long and I’m sure I’m not unpacking even 1% of the information I’m trying to relay…..next Q:
AR: “And finally, if I may be permitted a third question : You mention at one place that these “experiences” are quite commonplace, and that thousands and perhaps even millions have had them. Do you mean that literally, and can you point me to some source for those numbers (and I don’t ask this in order to challenge you about the exact numbers, I only mean source/s that point towards such large magnitudes, generally speaking — so that I’d be fine if, in case it turns out there are no documented sources as such that you referenced, you could then talk anecdotally of subjective sources that led you to such large magnitudes in this context).”
Me: Good question. And yes I do mean that figure literally!
Look, I’ve been absolutely obsessed with all aspects of the spiritual, mystical, paranormal, altered states of consciousness etc since I can remember. And I mean obsessed. When everybody else was out building careers and making families, and working their spirituality INTO all this………THIS is literally all I was doing and interested in! I am almost entirely uneducated (despite easily being one of the brightest at school – as told by teachers on more than 1 occasion in front of class, when I was being disruptive :), work rubbish mind-numbing jobs, am fairly poor and have no wife or children or partner at all! This wasn’t an accident. 🙂
Having studied thousands of books about meditation, mysticism, tantra, yoga, NDEs, astral projection, OBEs, kundalini, after death communications, mediums, alien & UFO experiences, fairy lore, dream work, psychology, psychiatry, neurology, physics, entheogenic experiences, parapsychology, philosophy, cults, Virgin Mary apparitions, various occult practices, “sacred history” etc etc etc, having spoken to hundreds of people in a variety of personal contexts, having been a reader of dozens if not hundreds of forums over the past 20 years across a wide spectrum of experience and perspective, having watched countless online clips and podcast interview – perhaps thousands just there! – I can without doubt say thousands are having these experiences, if not millions.
But what do you mean by these “experiences”? Shall we take One Initiated’s experiences which they have so kindly and informatively shared? (PS I’ve said the same as I’m going to say here about another poster’s experience on the RSS forum – several people, inc. those who appreciated my posts and were sceptical of RSSB misunderstood my meaning, so I’ll try to make it even clearer here).
When I say these are all common “basic” experiences, I am not downplaying them. I am simply sharing my knowledge and understanding, as well as personal experience. There is LESS than zero percent to suggest these experiences are somehow unique to RSSB or even the RS method in general, and that is my only point. These are common experiences within all schools of meditation that practice for several hours a day. Indeed, every single experience OI has recounted in described in detail in the texts of Daoism and Buddhist (without doubt the 2 most “advanced” meditation traditions and texts in the world, technically speaking, RS is child’s play in context, as may become clearer below). I’m NOT questioning the experiences (many if not all of which I’ve experienced myself, btw – I’m not initiated), I am simply questioning how we extrapolate FROM these experiences the elitest dogma and theology that is overlayed upon them? Again, intelligent observers may note the sheer amount of dogma & beliefs that have been spoken in this thread – and just how LITTLE those claims are supported by the actual experiences which have, thankfully, been shared! Ah, a little experience of something mysterious gives many the confidence to assume everything else must be true…..
There is a wonderful book which may give some context those uninformed and ignorant of the sheer depth and technicality of Daoist and Buddhist meditation practices It is worth buying the full book for those who can afford it and have an interest in the subject:
http://www.meditationexpert.com/Chapter4.pdf
http://www.meditationexpert.com/Stages2.pdf
Having read hundreds of books on Daoism and Buddhist meditation, there is absolutely nothing in One Initiated’s experiences that isn’t described therein, or shared by people on other forums who’ve never heard of RS or been initiated by anyone…
OI: “After the meditation your breathing frequency drops significantly and it’s length also gets way way too shortened. Like, once you inhale.. ”
Yes, this is known as “khumbaka” – the real khumbaka, not the imitated one in modern yoga schools. As I wrote and asked about on the RSS forum several years ago, one of the phenomena I experiences was what seemed like a complete cessation of breath, just prior to entering “samadhi”, for lengths of time that seemed physically impossible. A few people said they agreed, one person – ironically a kriya yoga teacher (I found out years later in Kriya Yoga this is a well known phenomena!) and RS initiate – said they don’t believe this happens. As I said, I believe this is a fairly common phenomena for people just about to enter Samadhi. It doesn’t matter whether you’re initiated by Barney Rubble or a stick of Candy…….obviously…..
OI: “You tend to cry so much frequently.”
Too common to even address.
OI: “The whole body feels so lightweight”
Too common to even address.
Just read any advanced book on Buddhist meditation and what one may experience from it…..
OI: “From the top of the head (crown chakra) to your whole chest feels like super wet, and when I actually checked there is no wetness outside it’s all plain and dry,”
Ah, something not too common! You’re making progress! If only you had somebody competent to guide you through those experiences, because for sure RS is woefully inadequate to guide in comparison to Daoism and Buddhism!
No seriously, these feelings of liquid being dropped on one’s head I’ve read about so many times in Daoist and Buddhist texts. There is a reason why religions “anoint” people with an oil on their forehead. These are very specific experiences at very specific stages, according to both Daoism and Buddhism. Obviously these experiences also occur in Indian tantra (of which the RS meditation is a “stepped down” relatively modern sub-set of). Whilst I haven’t experienced this exactly, I’ve experienced a liquid down the back of the throat – possibly spontaneously released endogenous DMT imo – but not this over the top of the head one. I have, however, read about it several times from experiencers, none of whom associated with RS, and definitely read about it at least half dozen to a dozen times in a variety if buddhist and daoist texts…..
One Initiated wrote after this experience, obviously referring to my earlier posts – patently misunderstood posts btw – “Dogma ? Delusion ? – these are hilarious words for someone who is experiencing this feeling”
No my friend, your EXPERIENCE of these things is no dogma, no delusion. I’ve experienced many of them myself, and THAT’S the point.
Your experiences here prove absolutely nothing about RS, RSSB specifically (indeed, most people online have the delusional belief RSSB has no mystical “juice” as Kirpal had it all! We’ve all got our own juice, and it has ever been thus!), initiation, Gurinder or any other guru etc
It certainly doesn’t prove anything whatsoever about me potentially crying rivers and being in “trouble” for speaking my truth. 🙂
You cannot even see where you experience ends and where your dogma and delusion begin….it is all one, unexamined, uninformed, whole…….
But, again and again, my personhood & point is misunderstood and misrepresented time and time again, as if I’m the one missing something here……
Right – 2+ hours in?!! Enough for a long long while! I feel like I’ve covered less than 1% of what I intended to & that 1% was done with no real passion or desire to do so, so was done poorly! Peace.

Appreciative reader wrote to Jim,…. “I only asked about non-RSSB Radiant Forms because I was curious, nothing more ; and the context was the Radiant Form of Thakar that came up in the course of your discussion with Osho Robbins.”
Jim answers,…both Osho and I were initiated by Thakar Singh. Osho will have to answer tor him self, but I have never seen, or had a glimpse of Thakar Singh inside, nor have I ever heard any of his initiates share that they have.
As for “spinning”, its what Liberal Politicians do the best. They dodge the questions asked of them, and spin other answers not related to the question. I think I answer most questions directed at me, head on, with out trying to spin them.
If you really don’t know what spinning means,……..Manjit’s recent Megatone Rant here and in RSS is a Spinner’s Delux! “He really isn’t interested in discussing these meaningless children’s issues ” ( my paraphrase ),…. but posting enough to choke Oldies and Newbies alike, which is only 1 % off what he would REALLY would like to shere,….if he had time, and wasn’t just passing thru to dump on RSSB, ….if we, his audience were not so spiritually dense,…….” HA, HA. Excuse my spiritual ignorance.

Manjit,
Just finished reading your lengthy post. I NEVER read posts that long – I just don’t have the patience – but I read yours all the way through. You mentioned the book “The Path.” Co-incidentally that was my first ever book too. Just like you, I was into all this “god-shit” at an early age. I mean I used to take “spiritual link” to school and laugh when they talked about the “facts of life” because I thought “I have the REAL facts of life that matter.”
I too had only one ambition – and that was to meet Sat Purush face to face and sit down to have tea with him in Sach Khand.
“The Path” (the book) had a huge effect on me. I didn’t just believe in Radha Soami at the time – I just KNEW it was the absolute truth without a shadow of a doubt.
At age 18, I went to university in London and came across and joined a group called “SOTM” Spiritual Organisation for the Teachings of the Master. They had a guru called Ishvara and I got initiated and used to meditate 4 hours a day and 6 hours a day at weekends. They had, at the time, 27 enlightened people who we could meet. They called them adepts. That path prepared me for what was to come.
I spent the next 20 years in following Thakar, Darshan and RSSB. I had many experiences of light, numbness, and visions. I also tried astral projection but was not too successful.
I came across “insight Seminars” and “life training” and “landmark” which all gave me a different perspective of life.
Then in the year 2000 a friend told me about a man who he said was very interesting. “I don’t know if he is god-realized but he seems to be a good man” is what he said.
I went to see him and he talked and talked for hours on end. He told me stories and quoted scriptures. He explained that God is not somewhere far away, and that there was no journey and HERE NOW was all there is and God can only be found HERE and NOW.
I listened and listened but I didn’t get it. I thought he was deluded.
Finally, two months later I asked him a question. “That is all every well, I understand everything you say, but what shall I do to get there?”
He said, “Have your not understood anything?” I had heard it all but I did not believe it as it was so different from the RSSB teachings.
I had never even heard of anything called Advaita. All I knew was sant mat.
It was over a year later that I went through a very painful experience and I wanted to commit suicide.
It was in that moment that something happened that I could not explain. Suddenly everything the man had said to me made sense. It became real and obvious to me.
I had visions of Gurinder telling me that this was the final truth.
I then went to a Master who completely transformed my whole life in four days. It was a five day intensive (12 hours a day) that ended up being four days for me because he threw me out on the morning of the fifth day. Why? Because I was sitting in his chair, teaching before he arrived.
That was the final meeting with him and I emailed him to thank him. I told him I wanted to meet him again to thank him.
He said “I am just a sign post. There is no need to thank a sign post – just use it and continue on your journey.”
I stayed isolated from the world for just over a year and then came out and lived a normal life again – except this time – it was all a game.
Even now – what I do is just a game. I am not trying to achieve or attain anything. The idea of achieving God is a joke.
How can YOU achieve God? Are you bigger than God?
And – here’s the real punchline
The EGO is the barrier between you and god, right?
and it is the EGO which wants to attain to God.
The very thing that you need to drop and lose
is the one that wants to attain Godhood.
The four day intensive I did with the master I went to was not about listening – it was a process of being with him and being AUTHENTIC.
That means dropping all the pretence and lies that have become second nature to you.
It is not an intellectual exercise.
No amount of writing and talking can give you even the slightest taste.
The process involves being true to yourself and acting from that truth, Then something happens that cannot be explained. And once it happens – you disappear, or more accurately, you never was and never will be.
And it’s not a theory. Anyone who says they understand Advaita teachings just doesn’t get it.
Advaita cannot be understood. It either happens or it doesn’t.
If it doesn’t – then you don’t understand anything – you just have theories and and ideas and lots of questions.
Once you get it – all questions disappear because it is not a mind subject.

OshoRobbins,
What’s true here and now? Is reality still the dream of existence to you?
You are stuck and claim not to be. You are far any experience of Nirguna and claim to understand it. Mind can understand with the aid of knowing of the awareness. Without that, all it does is believes. You believe in Nirguna. And claim that there is no Saguna or the way.
You claim that there is nothing to be done. But, you don’t let go and surrender. You never accept your present condition. The truth for a master and you are different. Both of you are on different levels of existence. Free will is true for you, but their is none for a master, just choicelessness.
Similarly, Saguna is true and real for you, you need to go through it; there are no shortcuts.
What you show is like imagination of experience compared to the memory of it.
Different notes of word have created different universes in the same space or so, according to RSSB. You are far from aware of their existence, but claim to understand the realm of the word. That’s something far beyond mind and infinite of such tools in existence.
Wait, let me guess. You don’t think awareness or consciousness is you.
What keeps on changing about you, can’t be your identity. Arms, limbs, thoughts, memory… none can be you. But you are so stuck up with your human experience, that you have ended up with the distorted perception… actually group of thought patterns of nirguna, right?
I don’t like you for your superficiality.

Jim writes:
“Jim answers,…both Osho and I were initiated by Thakar Singh. Osho will have to answer tor him self, but I have never seen, or had a glimpse of Thakar Singh inside, nor have I ever heard any of his initiates share that they have.”
I have seen his form inside many times and so have so many others. This is because it has nothing to do with Thakar – and everything to do with the person who sees the radiant form. At the time I was devoted. I used to meditate 2-3 hours every day, I had set up a daily routine. I was serious.
I used to also go to the group meditations at the house of the UK representative. I also visited Thakar several times in Sawan Ashram.
Jim wrote: ” They dodge the questions asked of them, and spin other answers not related to the question. ”
Then he uses Manjit as an example of a spinner. Is Jeff also an example? since he has not even now answered a question I have asked many times and just says “He has won the argument”. Or is that more than spinning?
If you use that definition of spinning, you will have to call just about every conversation with an enlightened person a “spin” because he is aware that the question cannot be answered, so he just speaks around the subject.
It is the nature of the topic – when speaking of enlightenment, no answers can be given because it cannot be adequately conveyed in words. Direct answers cannot be given.

Goku writes:
“What’s true here and now? Is reality still the dream of existence to you?”
Osho replies:
I am guessing you might be referring to this
“I went to see him and he talked and talked for hours on end. He told me stories and quoted scriptures. He explained that God is not somewhere far away, and that there was no journey and HERE NOW was all there is and God can only be found HERE and NOW.”
Goku, you have gone off on a tangent. You had added the word “true” and then gone ever further by asking “is reality still the dream of existence to you?”
I was writing what he said to me. That God is not in Sach Khand or some distant place or in the future. He is in the HERE and NOW meaning that you have to realise it NOW and HERE – as opposed to TOMORROW and in SACH KHAND.
In other words he was saying to me “don’t postpose and wait for God to come tomorrow.” There is a play called “waiting for Godot” by Samuel Beckett.
You can see it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wifcyo64n-w
A few excerpts to wet your appetite:
“nothing to be done” says one vagabond.
“I am beginning to come around to that opinion. I have told myself,
“Vladimir, be reasonable, you haven’t yet tried everything and I resumed the struggle””
“There’s man all over you. Blaming his boots for the fault of his feet”
“all people are bloody ignorant apes”
Enuf about that – watch it yourself for more. But you will need two hours.
Back to Goku
“You are stuck and claim not to be.”
Osho: How the fuck would you know? And what do you mean by stuck? and in what sense and how do you come to that conclusion?
Goku: “You are far from any experience of Nirguna and claim to understand it.”
Osho: WTF? “experience of Nirguna?” It is not an experience. It is a realization. And I don’t claim to understand it as it certainly cannot be understood.
Goku: “Mind can understand with the aid of knowing of the awareness. Without that, all it does is believes.”
Osho: give me a fucking break! Mind ONLY understands – that is all it can do – and it has trouble doing even that most of the time – hence mis-understanding happens. You speak of “knowing of the awareness” I presume you are writing of what you have personally known?
Goku: “You believe in Nirguna. And claim that there is no Saguna or the way.”
Nirguna is all there is. And nirguna is the empty set. It does not require belief. What makes you conclude that I BELIEVE in nirguna? I don’t.
I am not claiming there is no sarguna. I am saying that sarguna is the means. Everything you “DO” in order to arrive at emptiness is sarguna. So meditation, devotion to the guru. Going to an enlightened master and being in his company and listening to his reantings and spinnings and calling him a liar – all of this is sarguna. Of course there is a sarguna – but it is not the destination – it is the means. And yes – some means is required. Go find a enlightened master and be in his company – THAT is sarguna. I have done that too, many times. That was the path, sarguna.
Goku:
“You claim that there is nothing to be done. But, you don’t let go and surrender.”
Osho: “Let go and surrender” is the way. Only I don’t call that a DOING. If you want to call it a DOING – then in your world – you could say there is something to be done – and that is to let go and surrender.
Goku: “You never accept your present condition.”
Osho: What “present condition” are you talking about? And what is there not to accept about any “present condition”? If there is a “present condition” it has to be accepted. Now sure what you are getting at. Maybe you have created some fictional belief of HOW I should be and I don’t fit that “should” – is that what you mean?
Goku:” The truth for a master and you are different. Both of you are on different levels of existence.”
Osho: The truth for a realized person is different from the unrealized – yes that is true.
Goku: “Free will is true for you, but there is none for a master, just choicelessness .”
Osho: FREE WILL is a topic we have not even discussed. So where do you get that belief from? So a master does not have free will, just choicelessness. Now that is what I call a belief. You have heard it somewhere, but do not understand it – but it sounds nice – so you repeat it. Please define what you mean by “FREE WILL” and “CHOICELESS” then I will repond. Otherwise we are not speaking about the same thing.
Goku: “Similarly, Saguna is true and real for you, you need to go through it; there are no shortcuts. “
Osho: When did I say there was a shortcut? I have never mentioned short or long cuts. I am not saying just understand this and that is it. There is a journey – but when you “arrive” then you realize you was already there.
This is how I put it: “Enlightenment is a journey, the destination of which is the realization that there was no journey and no destination and nobody to undertake it or to arrive”
A play on words? yes, perhaps. Full of holes? Yes, Definitely! Contradictory? Yes.
Nonsensical? Yes. It is just a way of saying what cannot be said logically – it can only be said illogically. Anyone seeking logic and definite answers is going to be disappointed.
But if you choose to take on the journey to enlightenment, that is what you sign up to. Oh yes – I almost forgot – you can’t choose – it’s choiceless. So if you choicelessly go on thos sarguna path, it will be full of holes and contradictions and you will say it is all bullshit.
All I can say is embrace the bullshit and become the bullshit and perhaps you will realize that the bullshit is just another name for the NOTHINGNESS – or perhaps not. And then one day you might speak the bullshit and others will say “Bullshit” and you will say “Yes, thank you”
Goku: “What you show is like imagination of experience compared to the memory of it”
Osho: “imagination of experience?” compared to a memory of it. I am afraid I have no idea what you are writing about. Perhaps something imaginary in your mind?
Goku: “Different notes of word have created different universes in the same space or so, according to RSSB.”
Osho: Now you are truly writing nonsense. Different notes of the Word? Oh you mean like BAGPIPES created Sach Khand and the “thunder” created a different region (I will have to refer to the books to check which one). I see – so all this is the truth because it is written in a RSSB book? The same one the guru told you to burn, or a different book?
Goku: “You are far from aware of their existence, but claim to understand the realm of the word.”
Osho: The existence of regions? There are none – so there is nothing to be aware of. I don’t claim to understand Jack Shit. I am having trouble understanding where this is even all leading.
Goku: “That’s something far beyond mind and infinite of such tools in existence.”
Osho: Now that, Goku, is a belief. And because you only have beliefs – you think that I have only beliefs. But I don’t believe in all the nonsense you speak about. I have nothing to believe in.
Goku: “Wait, let me guess. You don’t think awareness or consciousness is you.
What keeps on changing about you, can’t be your identity. Arms, limbs, thoughts, memory… none can be you.”
Osho: When did I say my body was my identity? I am saying there is no identity. The very idea of “Identity” is the core issue. There is no ME – so no identity is required. Sure there is a body and a mind that interacts with the physical world – but it is not ME. I used to think it was ME when I was a struggling sant mat follower.
I used to think that I was a separate soul and that I had been separated from God and now I had to meditate and go through the regions to merge my soul back with Sat Purush.
So if I was to believe that again, That would somehow be the correct path?
Give me a break!
Goku: “But you are so stuck up with your human experience, that you have ended up with the distorted perception… actually group of thought patterns of nirguna, right?”
Osho: How do you know what is distorted? At best you can have a belief. I am not interested in beliefs.
Goku: “I don’t like you for your superficiality.”
Osho: “You don’t need to “like” me. That is your business. But I thought it was choiceless? And how do you decide what is superficial? These are all beliefs.

What does it mean that “I don’t exist”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxkTX_9JfwM
He says a lady said “I can accept that I don’t exist but I cannot accept that my husband does not exist – that is impossible”
All our experiment into self awareness because
“The person is conducting the enquiry”
and the person does not exist.

Advaita is an endless black hole that no one that has ever been born in to a human form can ever prove even exists. Other wise, that Sage would be Anami Purush. And He/She/It does not share Authority.
He has cloned His Soul in to countless individual souls, to explore Multiverses.
Plus, he has created a Chain of Command to expand His Play of Consciousness.
His Overseer of Material Creation is Kal, i.e. Brahma, Lucifer, Jehovah, Universal Mind,…..etc. but, they can not do any thing, with out Anami’s permission.
Kal further clones his Universal Mind to seduce individualized souls to host cloned minds, Agents of Universal mind/ Kal, to snare physical bodies to use as slaves.
Sense organs of physical bodies become the Seducers of minds, that have taken individual souls prisoners of Charausi, which keeps its inmates in prison forced to work for the Prison Warden, Kal.
Each individual created soul is a Neuron, in the Kingdom of God, i.e. Anami Purush.
But the Mystery each soul must seek for, and find, is Who has The Key to Open The Kingdom of God to return Home?
Osho and Manjit claim to have found The Key. But their Key doesn’t open my lock.

His Overseer of Material Creation is Kal, i.e. Brahma, Lucifer, Jehovah, Universal Mind,…..etc. but, they can not do any thing, with out Anami’s permission. – Jim Sutherland
Jim, you have got to be kidding me!
How do they get his permission? and do they sign a contract? and are these actual beings?
are they six feet tall, or 60′ giants?
and what happens if he does not give permission? can they get into a fight? or an argument?
obviously they MUST be in TIME/SPACE because there is MOVEMENT and MIND (in order to get permission)
So if it is within TIME/SPACE then it is illusion and part of DUALITY
And anything in duality is UNREAL (Charan singh says this)
So now where do you go from here? (or is it there?)
either Sach Khand is UNREAL
or it has to be the final resting place (well not really a place) of the advaita-ists
What happens if when you get to Sach khand, it is full of
Advaita-ists and you can’t stand them.
why don’t you drop by in your meditation tonight and ask Anami and his two pals
Alakh and Agam if there is space/time is this Sach Khand and see what they say
That is if you can get close enough without getting burnt
because Alakh Purush has the light of a 1000 suns coming from each hair on his skin

Osho, Sant Mat is taught by using ” Allegories”.
The Bible may be taken as historical events, that happened, or as Allegorical examples to teach lessons.
Obviously, most of us know Kal and his Pals are Allegories, same as animal sacrifice is an allegory for Mystics to sacrifice their inner animal lusts in order to ascend to Redemption.
Advaita is a black hole with no bottom , so no one who ever entered there has returned to report who was there.
Outside of Anami, its all Duality, and will remain so, as long as there are impermanent witnesses to observe Maya.
As a Fundamentslist Advaitist, are you ready to don a dhoti, sit alone starting at nothing, in silence, as Ramana ended up doing to prove he didn’t need any material Maya?
Sach Khand is with out gender, religion, race, nationality, or form, but souls recognise each other there.
Only the Master Lock Smith shares the Combination to the Lock that will open the Door. The Combination Code of Five Names has already been given to you.
Why don’t you use the Code to open the Lock to Sach Khand, and come back and share what you expeiienced there?

There certainly is a lot of interest and ongoing discussion in regard to this post. Mind you quite a lot of it is from Osho Robbins. Many contributions are heartfelt and I believe useful in helping to clarify thinking around this issue, particularly in regard to ‘soul’. It is THE issue in my view and ongoing throughout many of Brian’s past posts, (Jim, not all religions have the individuality of soul as their basis – one of the core teachings in Buddhism is the notion of ‘no-self – Anatta – (Manjit spells it differently)).
The last time I was at Dera (end of 2009), someone asked GS what soul was, he answered ‘the truth’. My interpretation of truth is it is that which is unchanging, eternal, without cause, timeless. So my view and understanding of what GS said is that soul must have such ‘attributes’ also. Therefor ‘it’ is already home, not separated, cannot be affected by karma as it is not in the sphere of ‘cause and effect’ and cannot be reincarnated as it is not in time/space. As I said previously such things happen to a body/mind, sense-of-self, not soul. I consider this to be one of the confusing elements in regard to what GS now says and the concepts/learnings/satsangs built around the ‘older’ teachings and adopted by satsangis and other truth seekers. The ‘oneness’ approach does simplify things, as it’s more about ‘now’ – less about belief in something ‘once joined’, then kicked out, only to have to suffer separation and struggle through a hierarchy of stages on it’s way back again over a time period. My view is that what we strongly believe in the world of the mind comes to pass. If we believe we are separate then that’s how it will be.
Some writers strongly proclaim that separate souls exist and maintain a sort of individuality even when merged back ‘in the father’, others that this cannot be the case in light of Gurinder Singh’s recent utterances (as understood by them). Earlier, Manjit mentioned Charan Singh’s words ‘May your love of the form culminate in love of the formless’ (very last quote in Legacy of Love). He (CS) also said many times ‘Love is becoming another being’. Both sayings, in my view outline the ultimate non-dual nature of Sant Mat, however there is this indication of time as well as separation. Trying to make sense of this in light of ‘soul’ reminds me that Sant Mat is essentially about Bhakti and its teachings incorporate and elaborate this notion of longing for the beloved. Here separation is key, devotees want to merge with the beloved yet cannot bear to part with the intensity of love generated by the longing created by the separation – gurumukhs. Is this then where soul fits? How does this relate to your average Joe Bloggs satsangi/truth seeker? In what way does this equate to Gurinder’s ‘Oneness’ teaching?
Best wishes to all
Tim

All joking aside,
here is a real serious question for Jim and others who follow RSSB and have experience of the inner regions.
Alakh, Agam and Anami are all BEINGS of some kind. Which means there MUST be some type of FORM. There has to be for separate being to exist.
The individual souls like Jim, Jeff, must also have form because “separate” means form.
Formless is not separate.
So if you accept there is form (which is what it means if you assert that individuality is retained in Sach Khand), then there MUST also be SPACE for those forms to move about in.
And there must also be TIME.
If all this is true, then Sach khand is MAYA and Illusion.
If it’s NOT TRUE, then it means there is no individuality.
no individuality means just the ONE or the VOID of the Advaita-ists

As long as we are referring to the regions up to Sach khand, there is no issue.
We can be in our Astral and Causal bodies and can move around as there is TIME and SPACE as those regions are part of MAYA and duality.
The issue becomes apparent as soon as we enter the “purely spiritual realms” where there is no trace of matter (not even astral or causal)
There CANNOT be form. There can only be NO FORM.
NO FORM = FORMLESS = NO SEPARATENESS = NO INDIVIDUALITY.
This is not a matter of opinion or subject to debate.
It is impossible to retain your individuality in Sach Khand.
And Sat Purush and Anami cannot be beings. It can only be ONE.
So anyone who argues that individuality is retained – please explain HOW this is possible.
because it is clearly IMPOSSIBLE.
There is ONE WAY in which it IS possible.
Many years ago I read it in a book called Mysticism Volume 2
Prof L.R. Puri writes that there are COPIES of the higher regions in the lower regions.
so he says, there is a COPY of the next four regions in the Astral region.
He says many get deluded and think they have arrived in Sach Khand, when they are just in the Astral.
In the Causal there are copies of the 3rd 4th and 5th region. Again same thing – those who arrive there get deluded.

Sorry about the BOLD type in my last comment
I was experimenting with the bold tag and missed the closing bold tag

Osho, in Rai Salig Ram’s Catechism, he said that The highest Spiritual Realm where Radhasoami Anami Pad is, notice the FORM he said descended from Anai Zpad,….passed thru both Agam and Alakh as SOUND. ( Q 13 )
Check Mate, Advaita! Rai Salig Ram was Swamiji’s appointed Successor.
Q, 12. What is Maya ?
Ans. Maya is the mist which covers the spirituality lying below Dayal Desh. In downward or lower creations this mist or cover went on becoming coarser and coarser.
Q. 13. Please describe in detail the stages in the descent of Surat (spirit).
Ans. The real abode of Surat is Radhasoami Anami Pad. Rare Surats have access there, and they are called Param Sants.
A Mauj (wave) arose there and descended in the form of a current of Shabd (sound). Passing through the two stages of Agam and Alakh, it came to Sat Lok. This region is highly refulgent, pure, free from alloy and absolutely spiritual. One who reaches there, is called Sant and Sat Guru.
These four regions of Radhasoami Anami, Agam, Alakh and Sat Lok are collectively called `Dayal Desh’. Mohammedan Fakirs call Sat Lok “Hoot”.Leaving two stages of Bhanwargupha and Maha-sunn below Sat Lok is the region of Sunn or Daswan Dwar (tenth door or orifice). From here Surat went down to Brahmand and Pind. This (Sunn) is the Atma Pad (Spirit Pole) of Sants, and Lahoot of Fakirs. Upto this region, Surat is free from five Tattwas (elements), three Gunas (qualities) and body (instrumental, subtle and gross). Purush (Brahm) and Prakriti (Nature) emanated from this stage. It is also called Par Brahm Pad. One who has attained this stage (Sunn) is called a perfect Sadh.
Below Sunn is Trikuti, also called Gagan. This is the region of Brahm, Pranava and Ong. Fakirs have called it Arsh-i-Azim. From this region (Trikuti) have emanated three Gunas and five Tattwas in their subtlest form, and the ‘Words’ or
sounds of the Vedas and other revealed books, and the subtle matter of entire creation, and pure Maya. This region (Trikuti) is also called Maha Akash. The presiding deity of this region is Brahm, but Sants call him Brahmandi Mana (Universal Mind). Fakirs call him Khuda-i-Azim or Great God.
Below Trikuti is Sahas-dal-kanwal, also called Jyoti Niranjan, Shiva Shakti, etc. In Sant Mat or Radhasoami Faith, a novitiate is instructed to take this stage as the starting point. Sants call it Nij Mana (higher mind). From this region originated the subtle elements (sound, tangibility, form, taste and smell), followed by coarser elements (ether, air, fire, water and earth), and subtle senses and organs, and Pran and Prakritis. An impression or reflection of this plane is received first by the third Til (which is situated behind and midway between the eyes), and then extends to both the eyes. Chidakash (subtle Akash), which is called by some Gyanis as Brahm, originated from Sahas-dal-kanwal, and permeated the body, i.e., Pind and the entire creation below this region.

Jim Sutherland, I have stated some simple points and you have quoted some scripture of Rai Saligram, which does NOT address the points I raised at all, then you say “Check Mate”
Is that an example of what you call “spinning?”
It certainly fits the definition. i.e. don’t answer the question and instead write about something completely irrelevant to the topic.
I am writing about TIME/SPACE and stating that IF there is any type for FORM
( that is to say, SHAPE, COLOUR etc) then there MUST BE time and space.
This is the first point
in response to this – you have to say
(1) there IS form
or
(2) NO – there is no form.
you have said nothing.
If you say NO – then I will respond by saying that if there is no form – there cannot be separateness. The very meaning of SEPERATE is that there has to be a shape – an outline to that form. If there is no shape, then it is all ONE.
So – please address this.
And then the next point it:
IF it is within TIME/SPACE then it is illusion and part of DUALITY
IF it is NOT within TIME/SPACE then there is no separateness.
There is no third option, no matter how many scriptures you quote.
You say you always answer any questions addressed to you without spinning.
Then please answer these simple and straight forward points – without spinning.
This is nothing mystical – it is simple logic.

Jim, perhaps you are saying there IS FORM.
because you wrote:
“notice the FORM he said descended from Anami Pad”
I couldn’t see where it said that in the subsequent quote, but putting that aside,
it appears you are saying there IS FORM.
If that is correct – then this is the next question to address.
If there is FORM – then, there HAS TO BE (it’s not optional) TIME/SPACE.
FORM has to occupy space.
for MOVEMENT to happen – there has to be SPACE.
for there to be an Anami Purush – there has to be SPACE
for example, all dreams and astral projection happen within TIME and SPACE.
And if you admit (as you appear to) that there is TIME/SPACE – then it means those regions are perishable and part of MAYA and DUALITY.
because EVERYTHING (no exceptions) within TIME and SPACE is illusion and UNREAL.

OshoRobbins,
Do enlightened people need to guess? Aren’t they supposed to have untied the knots between the reactive entity and their consciousness?
 If you are enlightened, then you have no shadow of the reactive entity or the embodiment of intelligence on your awareness. Then, you are full of light of awareness and hence aware of everything. 
 But, you don’t seem to be omniscient. There was also no godliness in Bagwaan Rajneesh Osho. Both of you have at best used only the deeper intelligence of the mind, which is usually covered under the surface of waves of thoughts. And you judge others based on this achievement. 
 What is realization? That’s the manifestation of understanding. If you plan on using and cultivating intelligence instead of wisdom, then be my guest. But, atleast don’t let your dysfunctional relationship with the present moment make you regress to using your surface level intelligence, and create emotions and feelings. 
 
 You guessed wrong, Osho. I didn’t referred to anything, but your level of existence in the present infinite. 
 You think too much for an enlightened person. 
 When awareness becomes aware of something, it’s knowing. And understanding is developing trust based on the inner intelligence if the mind. Believing is relying on thoughts and emotions/feelings produced by them. 
Do you know what’s wrong with your argument? Your concept of nirguna looks the very same as that of a nihilist. And that’s the reality of deep sleep consciousness. And it’s much worst than that of a solipsist, whose reality is the reality of physical dreams.
Beyond the dream of existence, there is no illusion of non-existence or absence. 
 There is true existence, but no sense of it. That’s advaita. 
There is existence, light and true saguna. But, no sense of how it’s like to not have what isn’t. 
 There is presence, but no absence. Hence, no sense or awareness of presence. That’s why the creation exists, because the presence said “I” and it’s all self awareness. 
You kind of say that there is neither presence nor absence.
But, the world is still very real to you, isn’t it? 
 Well, I gave an example of how things are different at different levels of existence. But, you certainly do a lot of labeling and judging for an enlightened person. 
 Oh and you evaluated Gurinder’s answer, even though you said that you weren’t testing him. 
You don’t have to use your ability to discrimination and tell me what’s a belief and what’s not. Things you aren’t aware of shouldn’t be labelled as beliefs. 
 There were two books published by RSSB, both written by Sabrina Oberoy, one called Wake Up Call in which she worked with Beverly Chapman. I’m not sure about the names, it’s been a while since I read them. Anyway, they explain things related to the change in teachings etc, that you try giving your own explanations to. You should read them ASAP, so that you stop making a fool out of yourself. 
Oh and it’s available in multiple languages. And you can see that Gurinder doesn’t gives dosages of different teaching at different places. I accuse all people who claimed he did of believing so. Are they going to apologize for stating that?

Jim Sutherland writes:
“Osho, Sant Mat is taught by using ” Allegories”.
Obviously, most of us know Kal and his Pals are Allegories.”
Osho: so there is no actual being called Anami? Or kal? Or Sat Purush? Or even Jot Niranjan?
Despite the detailed descriptions given in Sar Bachan and other books.
Is that correct?
Jim Sutherland writes:
“Outside of Anami, its all Duality, and will remain so, as long as there are impermanent witnesses to observe Maya.”
Osho:
So Sach Khand is also duality, except the very highest rung of Anami Desh?
“and will remain so, as long as there are impermanent witnesses” – WHO are these impermanent witnesses? Do you means SOULS? Are they IMPERMANENT?
Jim Sutherland writes:
“Sach Khand is with out gender, religion, race, nationality, or form, but souls recognise each other there.”
Osho: Without religion? That’s a real problem, because I thought we’d all be RadhaSoami’s all lving together over there in harmony, eating veggie burgers and attending satsang and doing lots of seva.
Joking aside, you say there is NO FORM. But obviously you are saying Separate Souls exist.
You can’t have BOTH.
Here’s an example.
Take a cup of tea. Does it have form? Obviously.
Now I want you to make that cup of tea FORMLESS (I.e so it has NO FORM).
Assuming you have the ability to do so, will I be able to SEE and FEEL and experience the cup of tea?
Obviously NOT – because it is FORMLESS and the formless cannot be seen or experienced.
Can I recognize the cup of tea? I can’t SEE, FEEL or DRINK it. It’s vanished.
Just like all things that have NO FORM.
If I made YOU (Jim Sutherland) FORMLESS right now – I can guarantee that in that very moment you would vanish.
Let me address the advaita question now even though I am not an “advaita-ist” just as I am not a Radha Soami.
Jim Sutherland writes:
“Advaita is a black hole with no bottom , so no one who ever entered there has returned to report who was there.”
Osho:
Well I am going to report it right now – for and on the record. So pay attention because this will only happened the once – then I will vanish into the black hole.
I went there – into the big fucking black hole, and guess what? I still have not reached the bottom of the hole. I wonder why? Oh yes – it’s because it is bottomless.
Something else also happened to ME when I entered. It was really strange. But I will describe it in detail.
I fucking disappeared. I am not kidding.
And I don’t mean slightly gone – I mean – I was instantly history. I was FORMLESS.
I wanted to MEET the ONE – but even HE was not there. He had also vanished.
I mean it was the strangest experience of my life. One minute I was there and the next minute, POOF – I was GONE.
But just before I disappeared, I had a good look around just so I could write about it on here.
Guess what I saw?
You guessed it! Absolutely fucking nothing.
I mean it was weird man. Just blank empty spaceless timeless void. Even the ONE was nowhere to be seen.
I repeated the five holy names – to see if the rulers would come, but no, not a sign of any of them. Not even Anami. They must have vanished too! I mean the whole lot of them – all gone.
Then I realised what had happened. All the souls who had entered before me had also vanished into thin air.
Now at last I understood. So this is what NOTHING means.
I looked around to see if I could recognise Jim or Brian, or Jeff, or Appreciative Reader, but NO – NOTHING. They had all disappeared.
I thought “The moment I get to the bottom of this – I will reincarnate, take a FORM again and go tell all the living souls what the fuck is in store for them.”
But I have still not got to the bottom of it.
Then I thought “even if I report this – who the fuck is going to listen? They are going to tell me to fuck right off.”
So I may as well stay here, and I did.
End of story, err, I mean allegory.

Goku:
“Do enlightened people need to guess?”
Osho: Yes – all the time. Guessing is their best pastime.
Goku:
“ Aren’t they supposed to have untied the knots between the reactive entity and their consciousness?”
Osho: what reactive entity? And which knot? You have too many ideas and concepts from the bullshit you have read. It is all nonsense. And there is no “Enlightened” person. And these is no “supposed to” and no “should”. There is simply what IS. And what ISNT.
Goku:
“If you are enlightened, then you have no shadow of the reactive entity or the embodiment of intelligence on your awareness. Then, you are full of light of awareness and hence aware of everything.”
Osho:
What do you think enlightenment is? According to your definition – I am not enlightened and I agree – I am not interested in your or anyone else’s version of enlightenment. You are welcome to chase your version. But it is nothing more than concepts.
My version is unique to me. I am not interested in achieving any ideal version that is full of concepts. Enlightenment is not a goal to be achieved. Your version is and you are welcome to spend eternity trying to get there.
Goku:
But, you don’t seem to be omniscient.
Osho: Omniscient? What the fuck is that? I have no interest in being all knowing. What is that supposed to mean anyway? I don’t claim any powers. I am just me. And I don’t even know what it is. I am happy in the not knowing.
Goku:
There was also no godliness in Bagwaan Rajneesh Osho.
Osho: What is this Godliness you speak of? Define it. And I have no interest in what Osho was or was not. I have no allegiance to him. He is just an interesting character.
Goku:
Both of you have at best used only the deeper intelligence of the mind, which is usually covered under the surface of waves of thoughts. And you judge others based on this achievement.
Osho: on what achievement? I have none. Osho can speak for himself.
Goku:
What is realization? That’s the manifestation of understanding. If you plan on using and cultivating intelligence instead of wisdom, then be my guest.
Osho: You don’t know what it is. You are guessing.
Goku: But, at least don’t let your dysfunctional relationship with the present moment make you regress to using your surface level intelligence, and create emotions and feelings.
Osho: I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Goku: “You guessed wrong, Osho. I didn’t referred to anything, but your level of existence in the present infinite. You think too much for an enlightened person.
Osho: again too much nonsense. What has thinking got to do with anything? You have way too many concepts related to your fictional idea of whatever you consider “enlightenment” to be. So let me make it clear. I do not and will not fit into your concepts. Neither will anyone else. Not now and not ever.
You can spend your entire life seeking and looking for someone who fits your ideas ot enlightenment – and you will never find such a person. If you do find them – let me know.
Goku:
When awareness becomes aware of something, it’s knowing. And understanding is developing trust based on the inner intelligence if the mind. Believing is relying on thoughts and emotions/feelings produced by them.
Osho: You have your own definitions based on your own concepts. They make no sense to me at all. And I am unenlightened according to your concepts and I wish to remain that way. Thank you.
Goku:
Do you know what’s wrong with your argument? Your concept of nirguna looks the very same as that of a nihilist. And that’s the reality of deep sleep consciousness. And it’s much worst than that of a solipsist, whose reality is the reality of physical dreams.
Osho: I have no idea what you are talking about, and I have no interest. I don’t have a concept of it. And I don’t understand all the complicated labels. Way too complex for me.
Goku:
Beyond the dream of existence, there is no illusion of non-existence or absence.
There is true existence, but no sense of it. That’s advaita.
Osho: I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not an advaita-ist. I am not interested in achieving the goal of Advaita, sant mat, or any other theoretical philosophy. But thanks anyway.
Goku: There is existence, light and true saguna. But, no sense of how it’s like to not have what isn’t. There is presence, but no absence. Hence, no sense or awareness of presence. That’s why the creation exists, because the presence said “I” and it’s all self awareness.
Osho: You seem to know a tremendous amount for someone who has not realized it? Or have you realized all this you write about. Personally I can’t make head or tail of it and I have no interest in trying. Are you writing from experience or what you have read?
Goku: You kind of say that there is neither presence nor absence.
But, the world is still very real to you, isn’t it?
Osho: too many concepts and that leads to living in the mind. Enlightenment is the opposite. Drop all the silly ideas and go to some enlightened idiot who may take you out of the world of concepts. The world is not real. It is only as real as a dream while the dream is happening.
Goku: Well, I gave an example of how things are different at different levels of existence. But, you certainly do a lot of labeling and judging for an enlightened person. Oh and you evaluated Gurinder’s answer, even though you said that you weren’t testing him.
Osho: I wasn’t testing him and I liked his answer. If I hadn’t have liked it – that too was fine. And I can comment and evaluate as much as I like – it doesn’t mean I am testing. And what is all this obsession with “testing” anyway?
Goku
You don’t have to use your ability to discrimination and tell me what’s a belief and what’s not. Things you aren’t aware of shouldn’t be labelled as beliefs. 
Osho: I have no idea what you are talking about.
Goku:
There were two books published by RSSB, both written by Sabrina Oberoy, one called Wake Up Call in which she worked with Beverly Chapman. I’m not sure about the names, it’s been a while since I read them. Anyway, they explain things related to the change in teachings etc, that you try giving your own explanations to. You should read them ASAP, so that you stop making a fool out of yourself.
Osho: Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us? Because all the RSSB believers here are struggling to make sense of it all.
Goku:
Oh and it’s available in multiple languages. And you can see that Gurinder doesn’t give dosages of different teaching at different places. I accuse all people who claimed he did of believing so. Are they going to apologize for stating that?
Osho: Any statements I have made are from what I have heard. Not hearsay.

Goku,
you have a head full of concepts about what enlightenment should be and should not be. According to YOUR concepts, is Gurinder enlightened? Is Charan Singh enlightened?
What about Kirpal and his successors?
Are you a RSSB follower and initiated? and have you had any inner experiences.

Osho Robbins, your imagination about Anami Pad, whete you vertainly have never had even a minute glimpse of, is running wild!
Swamiji witnessed seeing ” Hansas” in Sat Lok, where he must have been allowed to visit, unlike Advaitists who are never allowed to enter these Regions, because they have never revived the Combination to the Master Lock shared by the Master Lock Smith.
Carefully study Swamiji’s full description of the ” Regions” you keep saying don’t exist, and that Gurinder Singh said ( accorcing to you ) don’t exist.
Scroll down to Sat Lock and see that ” Hansas ” exist there. So, FORM of some kind, obviously exists thete, in Time and Space, where RADHASOAMI dwells.
Sent from my i Pad — Jim Sutherland
Begin forwarded message:
From: James Sutherland
Date: June 4, 2017 at 5:54:58 AM EDT
To: Jim Sutherland
Subject: Hidaytnama
HIDAYATNAMA
(ESOTERIC ..INSTRUCTIONS)
‘REVELATION GIVEN OUT IN THE COURSE OF TEACHINGS IMPARTED ABOUT THE VALUE OF ASSOCIATION WITH, AND SERVICE OF, THE PERFECT GUIDE, AND ABOUT THE DIFFERENT GRADES OF ADEPTS, AND INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF SHABD, AND THE SECRETS OF SHABD MARG (YOGA), AND THE VARIOUS STAGES ASSOCIATEDWITH IT.
This discourse is meant for those who are desirous of finding the Supreme Being, and who are true seekers and want to know which religion is the highest and what path is the most sure and direct. They should minimise their worldly attachments. In other words, leaving the care for wealth, wife and children to fate, they should give paramount importance to the company of saintly persons. And out of saintly persons, the company of that Adept should be adopted who is a practitioner of Surat Shabd or of Drisht; (sight), that is to say, who is conversant with the technique of the Yoga of Surat Shabd, has perfected the practice of withdrawing the spirit currents from the pupils of the two eyes, and of uniting them ; and who performs the practice of raising the spirit, by hearing, internally, celestial sounds.
In case an Adept of this class is not available, they should search out one who performs the practice of `striking the solar plexus with Name’ (repeating the Holy Name in a particular manner at the heart centre), or one who performs the practice of ‘breath control’.
The company of such a person would: also purify the heart, curb evil propensities and confer some inner joy. But the ascension of the spirit can be achieved through the practice of Surat Shabd Yoga alone.
It behoves the seeker to develop love and devotion for such a personge, to perform His service with zeal, to solicit His attention and kindness by rendering service of all kinds with body, mind and wealth, and to gaze at His eyes continuously for an hour or two, without letting the eye-lids close, as long as possible.
The duration of this practice should be prolonged day by day. Whenever He casts His benign gaze on you, your heart will be purified. When, in His grace, He initiates you into the secrets and methods of the practice referred to above, your spirit will begin to catch hold of the celestial sounds. You should perform this practice daily, twice,,four times or as many times as you find time. If your mind gives rise to delusions and wanderings, prayers should be offered to Sant Sat Guru and the practice should be performed with greater effort. Guru’s kindness and your application would certainly result in progress day by day. It is not proper to be hasty or impatient, because haste makes waste, and is characteristic of the devil.
Whatever is achieved gradually is beneficial, and what ever is acquired pronto does not last, because such an acquisition is the gift of Satan. Whatever is obtained from the Merciful Guru endures. All this refers to external modes of devotion. The inner state and the stages to which Sants have access are described below.
When your eye turns inward in the brain and you see the firmament within, and your spirit leaves the body and rises upward, you will see the Akash in which is located Sahas-dal-kanwal, the thousand petals of which perform the various functions pertaining to the three worlds. Its effulgence will exhilarate your spirit. You will at that stage, witness Niranjan, the lord of three worlds. Several religions which attained this stage and took the deity hereof to be the lord of all, were duped. Seeing the light and refulgence of this region they felt satiated. Their progress was stopped. They did not find the guide to higher regions. Hence they could not proceed further.
At the apex of this Akash, there is a passage which is very small like the eye of a needle. Your Surat (spirit) should penetrate this eye. Further on, there is Banknal, the crooked path, which goes straight and then downward and again upwards. Beyond this passage comes the second stage.
Trikuti (Region having three prominences) is situated here. It is one Lakhi Yojan2 in length and one Lakh Yojan in width. There are numerous varieties of glories and spectacles at that plane which are difficult to describe. Thousands of suns and moons look pale in comparison to the light there. All the time, melodious sounds of Ong Ong and Hoo Hoo, and the sounds resembling thunder of clouds, reverberate there. On attaining this region, the spirit becomes very happy, and purified and subtle.
From here onward, it becomes cognizant of the spiritual regions.
After having enjoyed the bliss of this region for some time, the spirit goes up one crorel Yojans and reaches Sunn, the third stage. Mohammedan Fagirs (Saints) bare called it “Lahoot.” It is indescribable. Here, the spirits enjoy great beatitude. The refulgence of this region is twelve times that of Trikuti.
Pure pools of ambrosia, called . “Mansarovar”, abound here. There are innumerable flower pots and gardens. Spirits,, like beauties, dance at various places. There are pleasing and sweet victuals, all savoury and fresh, and sonorous and musical strains can be heard every where. All this bliss can be experienced by the spirit only when it reaches there. It cannot be described. At every place, fountains of nectar are at play; in other words, pools of nectar are overflowing and streams of nectar are gushing out. How can one describe the splendour and decoration of this region ? There are platforms of diamonds, beds of emeralds and plants of jewels, all studded with rubies and precious stones. Bejewelled fish, swimming in pools there, display their beauty and ornamentation and their glitter and sheen attract attention. Beyond this, there are innumerable palaces of caystals and mirrors, in which spirit enities reside at their respective spots, as allocated by the Lord. They witness and exhibit ever changing revels. In Hindi, they have been described as “Hansa Mandlies”. The decoration and embellishment of these regions can be appreciated only by seeing them. The entire creation there is purely spiritual. It is Free from material constituents. The denizens, there, are spiritual and free from
physical taints. Full particulars of these regions are known only to Sants. It is not meet to describe them in greater detail.
Having sojourned there and having enjoyed the glory thereof for a very long time, the spirit of ` this Faqir moved on, in accordance with the instructions of the Guides. After traversing five arab and seventy-five crore yojans upward, the spirit entity effected ingress into the bounds of Hahoot and witnessed the panorama of that region. There an expanse of ten Neel is enveloped in darkness.
The depth of this dark region cannot be fathomed. The spirit went down one kharao yojans, still the bottom was nowhere to be found. Then the spirit turned upward and proceeded on the path chalked out by Guru. It was not considered advisable to go down right to the bottom of this region I his region is called Maha-sunn There are four extremely subtle sub-regions there, the secrets whereof have not been revealed by any Sant. There are prison cells for the condemned spirits, ejected from the court of the True Supreme Being. Although these spirits are not subjected to any trouble and they perform their functions by their own light, yet, as they do not get the Darshan of the Lord, they are restless. However, there is a way of their remission also. Whenever Sants happen to pass that way with spirits reclaimed from the lower regions, some of these spirits fortunately get Their Darshan. Such spirits go along with the Sants who very gladly take them to the court of the Lord and get them pardoned.
The spirit, thereafter, went to Hootal Hoot, which, in Hindi, has been described as Bhanwargupha. There is a rotating swing here which is all the time in subtle motion, and the spirits ever swing on it. All round, there are innumerable spiritual islands from which the sounds of “Sohang Sohang” and “Anahoo Anahoo” rise all the time. Spirit entities playfully and rapturously enjoy these sounds. Other characteristics of this region cannot be reduced to writing, as they can be realized by the spirit only when it reaches there by performing Abhyas. Hence it is necessary to continue the practice of this mode of devotion and it is called the Shabd (sound) practice. Do not give it up.
Having witnessed the spectacle of this region, the spirit entity proceeded upward and went on ascending. Whiffs of scents of various kinds and sweet fragrance of sandal were enjoyed by the spirit and the melodies of flutes were heard, while it proceeded onward. On crossing this plane, the spirit entity reached the outpost of Sat Lok, where melodious sounds or “Sat Sat” and “Haq Haq” were heard coming out of the Bin’. On hearing this, the spirit penetrated further rapturously.
There rose to view silver and golden streams full of nectar, and vast gardens, each tree there of being one crore-Yojans in height. Crores of suns and moons hang from them as flowers and fruits. Innumerable spirits and Hansas sing, chatter and play on those reel like birds. The wondrous beauty of this region 1s ineffable. While enjoying it, the spirit entered Sat and came into the presence of Sat Purush.
Now as regards the glory of the person of Sat Purush, each hair of His is so brilliant that crores of suns and moons look pale in comparison. When such is the refulgence of each hair, how is it possible to describe the glory of all His hair, and where are the words to describe the beauty and glory of His entire person ? How can one describe His eyes, nose, ears, face, hands and feet ? They are all nothing but refulgence ; even to describe them as oceans of refulgence does not give even he remotest idea.
The expanse of Sat Lok is one padam Palang, a palang being equal to Triloki in vastness. Hence it is -difficult to imagine the stupendous vastness of Sat Lok. here dwell spirit entities called Hansas who enjoy the Darshan of Sat Purush, hear the music of the Bin and -partake of ambrosial food.
After witnessing the glory of this region, the spirit proceeded to Alakh Lok and got Darshan of Alakh -Purush. The expanse of this region is one sankh, and each hair of Alakh Purush has the effulgence of arab kharab suns.
Thereafter the spirit entity went on and attained gam Lok, which is Maha Sankh Palang in expanse and the magnitude of the person of Again Purush equals crore Sankhs. The forms of Hansas of this region are amazingly wondrous, and the state of ecstasy and bliss that obtains there passes description. The spirit entity sojourned there for a long time and, on going beyond, it got the Darshan of Radhasoami, that is, Anami Purush, and merged in Him. Radhasoami Dham is boundless, infinite, endless and immeasurable. It is the fm ma Nij Sthan, the special resting place of Sants. (Fagirs). That region is the Ultima Thule of all Sants and all speech and description end here. I also conclude here..
So great and exalted is the status of Sants (Fagirs). Hence, how can the followers of all those who stopped at the very first stage, calling it limitless and boundless,. be convinced of the existence of these higher regions ?
No one but Sants and perfect Faqirs knows them. Only those who have met Sants and Fagirs can be convinced about the existence of these regions, provided that they have faith in Their words. Neither the Prophet nor, Vyas and Vashishtha knew of these regions. Hence no Hindu or Muslim can believe in their existence.
It is, not desirable to tell them about this, because they are fettered by the teachings of the Prophet and Quran, and. Hindus are slaves of Vyas, Vashishtha and the Vedas. They cannot even tolerate hearing these words.
As such,. communication of this revelation will do good only to those persons who have faith and belief in the words of Sants and who accept that the status of Sants is exalted above all and that Sants are, in fact, the creators of Khuda and Parmeshwar (God). For this reason, this secret should not be divulged to any one until and unless faith and conviction have been ascertained as conforming to what has been stated .

A petrol attendant who owned a cat, was filling a customer’s car with fuel when some spilled onto the floor and into the cat’s milk pot which was right below. The cat drank it up in a moment, thinking it is milk, just a little strange tasting.
The cat felt a strange, then starting running around the yard at 60 mph for about five minutes. Then it stopped dead.
“Is it dead” asked the customer, looking worried.
“No” said the petrol attendant, “I think it has just ran out of petrol”.
The attendant’s life is all about petrol. So the cat must have ran out of petrol too.
That is how conditioning works. Everything is seen through the filters of the mind. And the way you see it, appears to be the truth.
So Jim has lost the ability to think clearly – that is the reason why he insists that there is form in Sach khand but does not see that in making that statement he is also signing up for TIME and SPACE.
You cannot have one without the other.
Goku does the same. He makes statements without realising what he is saying, yet he is convinced it is all true.

There is something I’d like to address. Time and space aren’t essential for the existence of form.
The form the human mind knows is 4 dimensional( Length, breadth, height and time).
Now, using physics we have given concepts of more than 11 dimensions. Most are length and time based, but there are dimensions not based on them.
So, when we are using a tool infinitely better than the mind; and taking all of the existence in consideration, is it right to talk about 4 dimensional forms?
Each universe in the Multiverse has different laws of physics.
And there is no physics when we talk of spiritual dimensions. They are far beyond the dimensions of mind. Every universe kind of falls under the category of physical dimensions.
If a realm has been claimed to be beyond mind, how wise is to childishly talk about it in terms of physics?

Quote Osho Robbins : “… I went through a painful experience which triggered the ONENESS and suddenly it all became instantly clear. In that moment – all my previous identity disappeared and I became nothing. I dropped all connection to the old me – it was like it was someone else. …”
Dear Osho Robbins,
First of all, I have just now emailed Brian requesting him to delete those last two comments of mine, like I’d promised you I would.
Second of all, my apologies for that somewhat trenchant tone of those two comments of mine. I hadn’t wanted to get confrontational, but I could see no other way of getting something solid from you, something more concrete than all that theoretical faff (and I could sense that there was indeed something solid to be had from you).
Those two short sentences of yours are, to me, the distilled essence of your whole spiritual journey. The rest is easily reproducible theory. Of course even those two sentences don’t actually validate or prove your experience, how could they? But I hadn’t asked for validation at all, or proof, all I’d asked for was simple clear jargon-free explication. Which is exactly what those two sentences are. I see no reason to disbelieve what you, or what anyone else, is saying here : and this is you, the person, talking here, talking of your own experience and sensations, as opposed to you quoting theory and/or intellectual opinion.
Thanks much for that last comment of yours, and if you will allow me, I’d like to probe those two brief sentences of yours just a bit more. Perhaps you could quote the questions I’m asking below, each of them, one by one, in full and without leaving any part of my questions out, and answer each of them in turn, one by one by one, just like I’m quoting your comment here? That’s standard chat-forum deconstruction/response format, and you do use it yourself at times when replying to RSSB-ite comments. That way you won’t inadvertently leave out anything I’m asking in this particular comment of mine. .For your convenience, I’m putting all of my questions, for which I’m requesting answers from you, in bold. Apart from this particular paragraph, whatever you see in bold, just copy the whole portion, one portion at a time, and answer them in your own words. I’ve tried to qualify each question in some detail, to make clear what exactly I’m asking.
Quote Osho Robbins : “… I went through a painful experience which triggered the ONENESS …”
Would you talk, please, of (a) that experience, and (b) what led to it?
I fully understand your oft-stated point of view that both the process and the experience itself were ultimately irrelevant ; nevertheless, if you have no objection, I’d like to know about them please. I’m interested in knowing about that situation you referred to in your comment addressed to Manjit, as well as the five-day workshop you mention there. I fully respect any desire for privacy you may have (after all I’m posting anonymously myself!), so please feel free to mask any details that you don’t want to make public when you relate the process and describe that experience.
And just to clarify : I’m referring, at this time, to that single specific experience that you say triggered your realization of Oneness, and not any other experiences (including RSSB experiences) that you may have had before that or after that one pivotal experience.
Quote Osho Robbins : “…suddenly it all became instantly clear. In that moment – all my previous identity disappeared and I became nothing. I dropped all connection to the old me – it was like it was someone else …”
Lovely! Beautiful! Thanks for sharing this. Can you elaborate this please, in some more detail? I fully understand that this is the point where words start getting inadequate, no need to discuss or even mention that linguistic inadequacy again. Also let’s not discuss, not at this time, how the Zen paradigm or the Advaita paradigm or the Totapuri paradigm relate to this. Just tell me, please, in as much detail as you can (and in as much detail as you feel comfortable making public), in your own words, what it was you felt and saw in that instant. Just let yourself go, will you, and talk, man! Don’t worry about whether it makes sense, as long as it is in your own words and relates to your own self at that point. I’m all ears, eager to listen.
What became clear? What did this “became nothing” feel like? This new you that seemed to emerge : how exactly (in your subjective estimate) was/is this new you different from the old you? And has the old you been obliterated forever, and has that new you remained since then, constantly?
.
Third question : You seem convinced that realization happens in spite of any effort or meditation et cetera. What leads you to that opinion? Yes, it’s happened to you, so it’s personal, I agree : nevertheless, what makes you think that the realization that happened to you did not have anything to do with the efforts/meditation you put in? Answer that, please, without invoking established systems like Zen or Advaita or Vivekananda or what-have-you : it is *your* thoughts I want to hear.
.
Fourth question : Have you met any other “enlightened” people, people who’ve had bona fide Oneness realization? How does one tell? Okay, in a bit more detail, a bit more specific : Can a realized person tell if another person he sees is actually realized too? And : Of all the enlightened people you personally know, is there any commonality that they, to your knowledge, share?
.
Fifth question : You seem to think that realization happens in spite of any effort put in for it. But it is a fact that NOT EVERYBODY has this realization experience. What, in your view, sets apart those to whom this realization happens, from those to whom realization doesn’t happen? Or to put it differently : Why does realization happen to Individual A, while it does not happen to Individuals B, C, D, E and F? Why do you think it happened to you, but did not happen to, say, your wife, or your father, or your mother, or your friends, or to your work colleagues? (Here I am expressly asking for your opinion and your thoughts, but again, in your own words please, and without referring to Zen or Advaita or Totapuri or whatever!)
.
Last question: In sum, has this realization of oneness been of any real use to you, in a strictly utilitarian sense? Is there any reason why someone should actively seek out realization? Does realization do anyone any good at all : are the realized, when dead, any less dead (or any more dead) than the not-realized? Why would anyone want to go to the trouble to seek out realization, why would anyone want to spend even an hour of their life in trying to realize oneness? (And once again, please don’t say that since the self doesn’t remain, there is no remaining to make use of anything. No theory, no doctrinaire explanation, please. *You*, Osho Robbins, are very much there at this time, whoever or whatever “you” might be, thinking things and typing at your computer or your smartphone. I’m asking whether this you, who’s reading this comment of mine, has benefited in way from going through the realization and the dropping away of the ego in the realization episode, and to describe such benefit/s. … And a brief “No, it has been no use to me to the best of my knowledge” is a perfectly acceptable answer, if that happens to be the case.)
—
Your experiences and realization and your thoughts are precious, and they are your own. (Not just yours alone and you alone, this applies to everybody.) I recognize this, and I say this now because I’ve been sending all these questions your way, and apparently *demanding* answers from you. I’m not, actually, I’m simply asking. You say what you say here at your own pleasure, as do I. But I do hope you’ll take the effort to answer fully, since I see no other way of your conveying to me what you’re at, and conveying your realization of Oneness is presumably why you’re here commenting about Oneness in the first place, right? I’m very grateful for your sharing what you’ve already posted here thus far, and look forward to your response.
With best wishes,
“Appreciative Reader”.

.
MANJIT, that was a lovely post. I absolutely enjoyed going through it. Thanks much for taking the time and effort.
Taking all you say at face value (no reason why I wouldn’t ; and there’s no point discussing on here at all if I’m not prepared to do that!) — taking you comments at face value, I’m very VERY impressed. Yes, I know you don’t seem impressed yourself with what you’ve been through, but that was my first reaction.
To have had such clear focus when so very young, and to have actually had such experiences at such an early age, surely you see how unusual that is? Those are the kinds of things you read about in hagiographies of saints! As you say, you are indeed “odd” ! 🙂 One is tempted to use the word ‘blest’, except you yourself don’t seem convinced this is necessarily a blessing.
A question here, if I may : Have you any ideas, speculation even, about the reason for this “oddity” of yours? Why is it, do you think, that you’re so different, in this respect, from others?
Your specific experiences, as you describe them, are mind-blowing! They make riveting reading. You haven’t actually been initiated in RSSB, you say : but have you had any kind of spiritual guidance at all, early on, perhaps in those western mystic system you refer to, or in some Gurdjeff-like practice in controlling dreams and inducing lucid dreaming, or even (since you’ve seen visions of Gurinder Singh) informally in RSSB-type practice (despite not having been initiated formally)? Or has it all been wholly spontaneous, so to say? It’s actually very fascinating, sitting here and having a conversation with someone who’s actually been through all of this (rather than reading this in some long-dead seer’s hagiography), and having them directly explain their wondrous experiences to me.
Drugs don’t seem to have played an important role in your quest/path/whatever. I’d been half-expecting a Carlos Castaneda-esque account from you, but this was nothing like that, at all.
That’s a fascinating idea you present, that perhaps certain types of meditation might release chemicals within the brain, which might in turn lead to the meditational experiences. (I must dig around a bit, “research” if you will using the Google-machine, about these chemicals you mention, especially ones that might perhaps be produced by the body itself.) This, if true, is surely something that can be objectively, scientifically validated? This could end up providing a much-needed bridge between subjective intuition and objective empiricism.
David Lane’s Neural Surfer and Radhasoamistudies sites are often mentioned in Brian’s blog, sometimes in his main articles and more often in the Comments section. I think I must go check those out when I have a bit more time than I do right now. I’ll be sure to look for your accounts there. You post as “Manjit” there, right, or do you use some pseudonym over there?
Incidentally, your account of your realization on meeting with Osho Robbins I read with great interest. One doesn’t look for proof or validation in forums like this, only lucid explication, nevertheless your account does provide a validation of sorts for Osho Robbins’s narrative as well!
This particular experience of yours, that you’ve had when speaking with Osho Robbins (that sounds so very Shams-Tabrizi-ish, incidentally, that account of yours!), since this is what led you to a realization of Oneness : would you talk a bit more about this specific experience? I ask because this would seem to be pivotal (if, that is, you agree that realizing Oneness was indeed pivotal for you).
I enjoyed your critique of One Initiated’s experiences as well, although I’m not very sure I agree with this approach : I mean if One Initiated, or Jim Sutherland for that matter, experience things in a certain way, and then choose to interpret them in a certain way, then surely that is their business? I’m not sure it’s very good form to force your own interpretation down their throats! I mean if they’d themselves asked for your views, then that’d be a whole different matter, in that case you’d actually be doing them a favor by sharing your thoughts with them ; but as it is, given that they *don’t* seem to want to know your views at all …? Isn’t that how all religious conflicts start, by people trying to prescribe how other people ought to think and behave?
Nevertheless, that’s between them and you, and nothing at all to do with me really. And of course that post of yours was addressed to me after all, not to OI, so perhaps all that’s moot in any case. I myself enjoyed going through your interpretation of his experiences, and found it instructive.
Incidentally, with your wide reading you’re no doubt aware that Kumbhaka is an integral part of Hatha Yoga, albeit a very ‘advanced’ part. One comes across this practice in books on Yoga, and I remember reading a century-old account of it in one of Paul Brunton’s books, I forget which one specifically. (Although I remember Paul Brunton, despite his Indophilia — rare in those colonial times — seemed to see in it something devilish, for some reason. But that’s neither here nor there.) Some actually go physically slicing away up there, gradually, to bring that about, Kumbhaka I mean ; and I’ve actually read books (I remember one specific book published by the Munger school) that guide you on how to do that slicing. They too (like your account) talk of Kumbhaka resulting in nectar dripping down your throat (or something like that). Sounds perfectly ghastly, that slicing-mutilating part, although for all I know it might work.
As for it “working”, whatever that might mean : I wonder if you could answer something for me, something I’d asked Osho Robbins as well, earlier on. Would you say your Oneness experience has been of any real use to you? In what way? Your other experiences you didn’t really seem to have control on, and for you they were a part of your life throughout. I don’t suppose you can really evaluate those, since they’ve always been so integral to you. Yet your experience of Oneness, that came when you were an adult. You recognize your experience of Oneness as something distinct from your other experiences. (I’ve already requested you, earlier, to describe that session and that realization.) Anyway, what I’m asking here is, if that Oneness realization has been of any real *use* to you?
Reason I ask is this : If these experiences have been basically running up and biting you in the backside, so to say, as with you, then I don’t suppose you can do anything other than take them as they come and deal with them as best you can. But for Joe Everyman to whom all of this is wholly alien, is there any reason at all why he/we should want to share in this, want to actively seek it out? Focusing for now specifically on your Oneness experience : do you find you are in any way better off for it? Is there any reason for anyone to spend any time at all, even one single hour of their life, in quest of this Oneness? (I think you understand what I’m trying to ask, not very coherently perhaps. Explain, would you, in your own way?)
.
I think you’re truly blest, Manjit. (Okay, there, I’ve used the b-word!) Your experiences and your life-journey has been amazing! I’ll look forward to reading to your response to my specific questions, and to anything further you may want to add to what you’ve written here. It’s a really fascinating account! And I’ll definitely check out those sites of David Lane’s one of these days (I’d been meaning to anyway, since some time, only I never got seem to have got round to it), and I’ll look for the journal that you say you’ve posted there.
Thanks again for sharing all of this here. Good luck going ahead : you do seem to have far broader potential open before you than most of us (although who knows, perhaps we too might, God willing, find some way to share in some small way in all of that?).

.
Jim Sutherland, thanks for that clarification. I stand corrected. It was indeed Osho Robbins who’d mentioned Thakar Sing’s Radiant Form, not you, and so I have no cause to hold you to it or to conclusions that might follow from such a thing happening. Also, I appreciate how you accept without prevaricating that, should such a thing actually have happened, then that would mean there is more than one GIHF extant at the same time.
Incidentally, I do know what a spin might be, in this context. I was only wondering if you were actually using it to describe my questioning, and if so why. I hope I haven’t given you reason to apprehend any such thing from me?
As I just said in this very comment, you yourself have most certainly been very forthcoming with wholly spin-less responses, at least to me. Absolutely head-on, absolutely straightforward. I’ve never suggested otherwise, ever.
It’s been a real pleasure to read of your RSSB-led experiences, and One Initiated’s as well. One can draw a great deal of inspiration from these accounts. I know I do.

–
=
We don’t need All these words when we apply SOLOPISM , Solipsism
That makes it so simple
and lovely
777
=
–

Jim Sutherland writes:
“Osho Robbins, your imagination about Anami Pad, where you certainly have never had even a minute glimpse of, is running wild!”
Osho: I agree – I have never been to Anami Pad. Because it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for such a place to exist and I will prove it in this response.
Jim wries:
“Swamiji witnessed seeing ” Hansas” in Sat Lok, where he must have been allowed to visit.”
Osho:
Have YOU ever seen a hansa? If so, can you describe it?
Jim writes:
“Carefully study Swamiji’s full description of the ” Regions” you keep saying don’t exist, and that Gurinder Singh said ( according to you ) don’t exist.”
Osho:
First of all, it is not according to me. There is now plenty of evidence that it is not just I that is making those statements. The only people who doubt this are those who are simply too stuck in the dogma of sant mat and cannot accept it is posssible for Gurinder to make those statements.
I have studied the descriptions many times – it doesn’t make it real just because it is written about. And please understand I am not saying that YOU or some people cannot experience Anami Pad or any other region. Definitely the regions can be experienced and you are the proof because you openly claim to go there every day.
I am not refuting your claim and I am not calling you a liar. What I am saying is something else. Let me explain it step by step.
(1) Swami Ji claims to have seen hansas in Sat Lok (the purely spiritual region). You claim to have been to Anami Pad, and must have seen either Anami Purush or other beings there and perhaps even hansas.
(2) It is clear from this that in Sat Lok there are FORMS, and beings (hansas at least).
So that means there is TIME and SPACE in Sat Lok.
Goku in a comment says that “Time and space aren’t essential for the existence of form.” Then he quotes the latest string theory and 11 dimensions of space. I won’t go into that.
Let’s just keep this simple. FORM cannot exist if there is no SPACE and TIME.
So TIME and SPACE exist in Sat Lok.
Which means Sat Lok is perishable – because EVERYTHING within time and space is perishable.
Everything within time and space is part of MAYA and DUALITY. It changes and ends.
So it can’t be Sat lok or Anami Pad because those are without TIME and SPACE.
Jim writes:
“Scroll down to Sat Lok and see that ” Hansas ” exist there. So, FORM of some kind, obviously exists there, in Time and Space, where RADHASOAMI dwells.”
Osho: form exists there in TIME and SPACE. Well that much is clear. Let’s take it from there.
EVERYTHING witjhin TIME and SPACE – without exception is MAYA, ILLUSION and subject to change. That means DEATH also exists there. How do I know? Because everything within time and space is perishable and subject to death.
So – this CANNOT be the true Sat Lok because that is claimed to be eternal.
Jim (from sar bachan):
“On crossing this plane, the spirit entity reached the outpost of Sat Lok, where melodious sounds or “Sat Sat” and “Haq Haq” were heard coming out of the Bin’. On hearing this, the spirit penetrated further rapturously. There rose to view silver and golden streams full of nectar, and vast gardens, each tree there of being one crore-Yojans in height. Crores of suns and moons hang from them as flowers and fruits. Innumerable spirits and Hansas sing, chatter and play on those reel like birds. The wondrous beauty of this region 1s ineffable. While enjoying it, the spirit entered Sat and came into the presence of Sat Purush.
The expanse of Sat Lok is one padam Palang, a palang being equal to Triloki in vastness. Hence it is -difficult to imagine the stupendous vastness of Sat Lok. here dwell spirit entities called Hansas who enjoy the Darshan of Sat Purush, hear the music of the Bin and -partake of ambrosial food.”
Osho:
Well that is pretty detailed and leaves no doubt that TIME and SPACE both exist there as there are very clear references to both. This is very clearly duality. There is no reference to ONENESS or the VOID. Clearly when souls arrive there, they DO recognize each other and remain separate. They also HEAR and SEE and ENJOY.
This means DUALITY.
Jim (quoting The Hidayatnama) continues:-
“Thereafter the spirit entity went on and attained gam Lok, which is Maha Sankh Palang in expanse and the magnitude of the person of Again Purush equals crore Sankhs. The forms of Hansas of this region are amazingly wondrous, and the state of ecstasy and bliss that obtains there passes description. The spirit entity sojourned there for a long time and, on going beyond, it got the Darshan of Radhasoami, that is, Anami Purush, and merged in Him. Radhasoami Dham is boundless, infinite, endless and immeasurable. It is the fm ma Nij Sthan, the special resting place of Sants. (Fagirs). That region is the Ultima Thule of all Sants and all speech and description end here. I also conclude here.”
Osho: Sat Lok clearly has time and space according to this description.
So is perishable and unreal as is everything within time and space.
The only thing that is eternal is that which is OUTSIDE of time and space.
The above states: “and merged in Him” – so clearly there is a process of merging which happens in time and space.
I remember a question being asked of Swami Ji, that if I merge, what guarantee do I have that Sat purush will not separate me again. The reply is simply “don’t worry, it wont happen again”
All this is duality. The very questions being asked as duality questions. They are being asked as if there is a mind there.

Appreciative Reader,
I don’t feel like going into that much detail right now and on here.
If you would personally like the details – please send me an email on
OshoRobbins@gmail.com and I will reply.
I consider those details irrelevant because every person goes on their own journey and every journey is unique.
The style of the master I went to was very confrontational. There was simply no way anyone could just sit there. He would shout, swear, and generally scare the shit out of the followers. Yet he would be serenely playful and enjoy the whole process.
Those four days I spent with him were the most amazing four days of my life. Things happened there that I cannot even describe. Life long beliefs just disappeared. On the last day, when he threw me out, one lady from the group started to walk out with me. I asked her where she was going. “With you” she said.
“No”, I replied, “the rest of the journey I have to do alone.
I went home. I lay on my bed and just looked at my hand. “Whose hand is this?” I kept wondering. I had no idea what was happening.
I didn’t know who this person was laying on the bed. I knew nothing. All my previous knowledge had been negated and all the beliefs were now meaningless. In fact there was no meaning to anything and I had no idea what I was going to do next.
I was lost. No direction, no meaning. No goal. No purpose. I can’t really say it was a pleasant experience – but there was a strange kind of peace and let-go that came with it. Like nothing mattered.

To Osho,…I never said I accessed Anami Pad daily. Please don’t put words on Hine’s Church for seekers to be able to read, and think I am some Wannabe Guru that reaches Sach Khand daily, because I’m not, and I never said that, if so, you misunderstood what I DID say.
I said, I travel thru the Light and Sound areas, and quickly thru the Astral visionary areas, and end up in “The VOID ” , where I seem to be stuck, for some time. I even said that Charan must have come to me from Sach Khand, because I didn’t think I traveled to Sach Khand to access him. Big difference. He can come to where ever I am, at his pleasure, any time, but I am bound by my inability to be where he is, at my pleasure. The ” Void” to me, is more like as Samadhi is explained by Hindus, and how Nirvana is explained by Buddhists. ” Awareness with out visions, light or sound. ”
As for ” Hansa” in Anami Pad, or Sat Lok, I have been told, ( not seen ) by the late Michael Martin, who I used to have PMs with, for years, and we shared inner experiences, that he thought he accessed Sach Khand very often, especially in his later years. He not only had constant access to Charan Singh, but Jesus! He once described Jesus as being 20-30 feet tall, which corraborates my understanding that Astral bodies are able to stretch, shrink, appear or vaporize, as well as shape shift from one Form to another form. I have witnessed Facial forms of Charan Singh morph in to other faces, starting with Turbans, then chaging to faces I never recognized wearing head wraps like Hebrew Prophets wore. I interpreted that I was shown the Lineage of MastersI am initiated in to. The Hansas were described as thousands of floating Bubbles of Light containing different facial forms, and some times, they were all the same faces. So, it appears that, in spite of Advaita teachers saying Sant Mat is a Non- Dual System, the Sant Mat I subscibe to is a Duality, Eternal Philosophy/ Theology that Eternally preserves the individuality of every created soul. That is much more appealing to me than becoming God and ending up as an unconcious cell some where in a formless myst of nothingness some where outside of Space and Time.
Why are some Seekers able to Astral Project, or quite easily be able to either Lucid Dream, yet, others, even long time initiated Mediators, are never able to experience any thing inside?
I think those who have had near death experiences, and have had their Astral Bodies forced out of their physical bodies, at any time past, may be more prone to being able to Astral Project, either voluntarily, or accidently. At eleven years old, I almost dtowned. Very close call. At 22 years old, I was electrocuted, while standing in water on a concrete floor, holding a copper pipe in one hand, and with the other hand, holding on to a steel tank full of water that I couldn’t release. There was an electric heater in the tank , a 440 Volt Three Phase Direct Current, that some one had grounded to the copper pipe I had leaned over the tank to open the water valve. I became the Open Circuit . I could not let go of either the pipe or tank. Seversl Co- Workers watched as my hair stood straight up and I was being electrocuted. My life review passed before my eyes in rapid motion, and I knew I was going to die, if I didn’t! get released soon. No one dared touch me, as they would also have been fried! One last big tug, and I pulled 20 feet of copper pipe off the wall from their holding brackets, and landed on my back on tne floor in the water. I was in shock, and couldn’t speak for several minutes. But I think that was the time my Astral body got loosened up from my physicsl body, allowing me to experience the Astral Projections I did in my early meditation years after I was initiated.

Is ONENESS / Enlightenment of any actual USE? is it beneficial? what are the benefits.
I will address this question.
ONENESS per se, is not useful to the personality. It has even been called the “last nightmare”
It is not what you might think it is. All your ideas and concepts about it are wrong.
Like Goku mentioned that I am supposed to be all knowing.
It is incorrect.
What is true, is that even that which I DID know – is gone. So I am LESS KNOWING.
Even what little POWER I had is gone because I am no longer the doer.
I have not gained anything – rather I have lost everything – permanently.
Is it of any use? Yes – the seeking has gone. I am at peace because nothing is missing. I am complete.
There is no more death because I have already died and disappeared.
This body / mind is still alive – but it is unrelated to me.

Osho you talk quite a lot fir a LESS KNOWING guy.

Jim Writes:-
“I never said I accessed Anami Pad daily. Please don’t put words on Hine’s Church for seekers to be able to read, and think I am some Wannabe Guru that reaches Sach Khand daily, because I’m not, and I never said that, if so, you misunderstood what I DID say.”
Osho:
Thank you for clarifying, Jim. I know you wrote of various visions and meeting Charan Singh. I must have extrapolated beyond that. I apologize.
Jim:
As for ” Hansa” in Anami Pad, or Sat Lok, I have been told, ( not seen ) by the late Michael Martin, who I used to have PMs with, for years, and we shared inner experiences, that he thought he accessed Sach Khand very often, especially in his later years. He not only had constant access to Charan Singh, but Jesus! He once described Jesus as being 20-30 feet tall, which corraborates my understanding that Astral bodies are able to stretch, shrink, appear or vaporize, as well as shape shift from one Form to another form. I have witnessed Facial forms of Charan Singh morph in to other faces, starting with Turbans, then chaging to faces I never recognized wearing head wraps like Hebrew Prophets wore. I interpreted that I was shown the Lineage of MastersI am initiated in to.
Osho:
Sach khand – the word Sach means TRUE – The TRUE DESH – and true means forever, changeless and formless. I really don’t get how form can exist in the formless eternal. Eternal can only be formless – or else it will not be formless. They are mutually exclusive.
Everything in time and space is transitory and therefore unreal
sach khand is within time and space
therefore sach khand is transitory and unreal.
The is simple logic:
All “A” is “B”
Sach Khand is A
therefore Sach Khand is also B
(Where “A” is TIME and SPACE
and B is “Transitory and Unreal”)
The conclusion is unavoidable.
Jim:
The Hansas were described as thousands of floating Bubbles of Light containing different facial forms, and some times, they were all the same faces. So, it appears that, in spite of Advaita teachers saying Sant Mat is a Non- Dual System, the Sant Mat I subscibe to is a Duality, Eternal Philosophy/ Theology that Eternally preserves the individuality of every created soul. That is much more appealing to me than becoming God and ending up as an unconcious cell some where in a formless myst of nothingness some where outside of Space and Time.
Osho:
You are correct. This is definitely DUALITY.
No advaita teacher says anything about the sant mat teachings – it is specifically me (Osho Robbins) who is saying that Sach Khand, by definition, must be NON-DUAL if it is to be eternal and real.
I agree that the idea you put forward of a duality based individuality that is also eternal is attractive – however, no matter how attractive it is – it is impossible to be true.
By definition, that which is eternal cannot contain form.
And anything with form cannot be eternal. It has to end. Because everything within time and space ends.
So the thing you describe is attractive but not possible.
Jim:
Why are some Seekers able to Astral Project, or quite easily be able to either Lucid Dream, yet, others, even long time initiated Mediators, are never able to experience any thing inside?
Osho:
Why indeed. There are specific techniques to astral projection and lucid dreaming that can be used to practice it. RSSB does not give you those specific techniques and does not tell you that this is astral projection. In fact if asked, they will probably deny it is astral projection.
The specific techniques of meditation given in initiation are not every effective for astral projection. There are other far more effective techniques. Even devices (like REM detection devices that wake you up on detecting REM). If RSSB was a science – they would focus on what works to get those experiences.
Jim:
At eleven years old, I almost drowned. Very close call. At 22 years old, I was electrocuted. I think that was the time my Astral body got loosened up from my physical body, allowing me to experience the Astral Projections I did in my early meditation years after I was initiated.
Osho:
Quite possibly. But before everyone goes out and gets electrocuted, check out some of the other ways to astral project.

Karl writes:
“Osho you talk quite a lot for a LESS KNOWING guy.”
You have missed the whole meaning.
Osho wrote (talked) about 1000 books, and said he knew nothing.
You don’t understand the context of NOT KNOWING.
It has a specific meaning – nothing to do with the knowing you refer to,
An enlightened person can know how to drive a car, write a book, program computers, run a business. All those things require knowledge in the context you use it. That has nothing to do with it. Otherwise enlightened people would instantly become dysfunctional and unable to talk.
That is not the knowledge we are talking about.
We are talking about knowing in a different context.
Like we could say, I know “I am this person and I am a RSSB follower and I know if I meditate for three years, I will reach Sach Khand. I know Gurinder is a true master”
Knowing things that are not true – but we believe they are. concepts, which we mistake for truth. Like the title of the book “Never mistake a memo for reality”
It’s not what you don’t know, but what you KNOW that just ain’t SO, that gets you into trouble”
Thinking you know things that you don’t know. mistaking belief for truth.
So your statement is nonsensical. Nothing personal, I am just pointing this out, and writing even more.

How easy you say i dont understand. What a wisdom of yours.

Karl,
I have not said that you don’t understand at all. I have shown it.
There is nothing to be offended about.
You made a statement, and I replied.
If you have anything more of substance to add it, you are most welcome.
Just writing, “What a wisdom of yours” is” is nonsensical.

Quote Osho…
You don’t understand the context of NOT KNOWING
…Karl….You did say

Here is something Rajneesh said:
“A master should not be asked why. If you ask the master why, you have not accepted him as the master. Then your relationship remains of reason. And reason cannot relate with a master. It is a deep trust, the relationship is of love and trust. If he says it, then it must be so, then there must be something in it. And there was something in it.”
Osho, can you explain what the other Osho meant?
Oh and are you sure that you don’t have a belief that ” There can’t any form beyond time and space”?
You haven’t seen it all. So, things you haven’t seen can’t be called false.
Why are you using your mind to present arguments about something that can’t be understood using the mind?
What is your kind of enlightenment? It’s giving up. And making yourself believe that you’ve achieved all there is to be achieved. I guess that’s why Kabir couldn’t help Bharma.
The one who returns(Mirdad), collects and burns all the shadows in the Sun. Have you read his book?
You called me a person with too many concepts. Aren’t you a minimalist when it comes to keeping concepts! But the concepts you have, you hold them very dear to you.
I never said that you are supposed to know everything. And you didn’t had to tell me that you aren’t enlightened according to me.
I don’t care about the experiences people have had and shared over here. I don’t think they are any real, for a person who shares them should’ve had a waking up experience. The experience is experienced to be much more real than the world. And people having lucid dreams or hallucinations have less awareness or consciousness than normal state.
True experiences occur in a state of much higher awareness. And hence, they eliminate any reason to share them with others.

Quote Osho Robbins:
Appreciative Reader,
I don’t feel like going into that much detail right now and on here.
If you would personally like the details – please send me an email on
OshoRobbins@gmail.com and I will reply.
I consider those details irrelevant because every person goes on their own journey and every journey is unique.
The style of the master I went to was very confrontational. There was simply no way anyone could just sit there. He would shout, swear, and generally scare the shit out of the followers. Yet he would be serenely playful and enjoy the whole process.
Those four days I spent with him were the most amazing four days of my life. Things happened there that I cannot even describe. Life long beliefs just disappeared. On the last day, when he threw me out, one lady from the group started to walk out with me. I asked her where she was going. “With you” she said.
“No”, I replied, “the rest of the journey I have to do alone.
I went home. I lay on my bed and just looked at my hand. “Whose hand is this?” I kept wondering. I had no idea what was happening.
I didn’t know who this person was laying on the bed. I knew nothing. All my previous knowledge had been negated and all the beliefs were now meaningless. In fact there was no meaning to anything and I had no idea what I was going to do next.
I was lost. No direction, no meaning. No goal. No purpose. I can’t really say it was a pleasant experience – but there was a strange kind of peace and let-go that came with it. Like nothing mattered.

.
I am very intrigued by this disinclination of yours to engage with me. You have spent God alone knows how many hours here writing reams upon reams of doctrinaire Zen and doctrinaire Advaitic comments, and yet every time you are invited to speak in your own words and without using any obfuscating jargon, you “don’t feel like going into it”.
You want me to write to you again? What the **** for? Just read my last comment to you, the one from me (“Appreciative Reader”), on the previous page of this Comments section, the comment that is posted there on June 4, 2017, at 7:21 AM. That comment is already in the form of a letter/email to you. Easy enough to find, you can’t miss it! Consider it already sent, then, that email that you now ask me for! And really, I don’t think it is physically possible to be any more patient with you, or to guide you any more closely towards revealing anything you may actually have to reveal. That you nevertheless reveal nothing is, I cannot help concluding, is because you have nothing to reveal in the first place. (And this has nothing to do with language being unable to convey some ineffable intuition : I am talking about your immediate withdrawal each and every time you are asked for straight honest answers, as contrasted with your copious verbiage when making Zen-ic/Advaitic doctrinaire comments.)
You seem to have created a pseudonymous email id for just these kinds of discussions. I haven’t, I’m afraid. And I don’t feel comfortable sharing my personal information with you, as I automatically would end up doing if I email you from my personal email id. I cannot fathom this sudden coyness, this sudden disinclination for public commenting from you, you who’ve right here been commenting so very copiously (and this curious reticence of yours as regards public comments seems to pop up every time direct questions are asked, and obfuscation-free answers sought). After all, nothing stops you from masking personal details when talking of personal situations (or even leaving out the very personal bits altogether).
Nevertheless, if as you say you really do want to answer me but prefer to reply privately to me and to me alone, well then please refer my comment posted in the previous page on June 4, 2017 at 07:21 AM (you know which one I mean, the only one on here in letter/email format), and just email your response to Brian, with a request to him to email it on to me.
.
Brian, if you’ve been following this exchange between Osho Robbins and me : Look, I absolutely HATE requesting you to act like some kind of ******* post-office, but if you’ve read this sequence of comments, you’ll see that there seems no other way out! In the extremely unlikely event that Osho Robbins does write to me, answering my queries lucidly and honestly, and sends that reply to your email id, then would you please forward it to my email (without, naturally, revealing my id to him)? Sorry for the trouble, Brian, and thanks!
.
Osho Robbins, in that comment of yours that I’ve copied/quoted above, you do describe your workshop cursorily, and the after-effects of your alleged nothingness realization (that hand thing while lying on your bed), and also (in your subsequent comment addressed to me) some of your thoughts on whether this is any use at all ; and my first impulse on reading this was to try to tease some more sense out of these sporadic and disjointed (but nevertheless potentially suggestive) thoughts with some follow-up questions, but really I don’t see any point in my any wasting any more time on this particular exchange with you if you steadfastly and repeatedly refuse to engage honestly with me, despite my asking you, politely and clearly, so many times.
You cannot be unfamiliar with standard chat-room reply format. One quotes the questions asked, in full, and then below that quote, one types one’s response. One repeats this process for every question asked. This is a simple concept, and easy enough to do. I directly asked you to do this in that last comment of mine (posted here on June 4 at 07:21 AM, in letter/email format) and I ask again : just copy each question (in that letter-format comment of mine), in full, without leaving anything out, and below that write your answer. Repeat with the next portion, the next question. I don’t see what the problem is in doing that?
Heck, you do that very same thing when you want to spout Advaitic/Zen-ic dogma ! You take others’ comments and do exactly that with them. Yet when you are directly asked to do this without using dogma, without using doctrine, without using obfuscating jargon, and using only your own words in an honest straightforward manner, you suddenly “don’t feel like it” any more?
I have had enough of this ******* trolling of yours! If even now you wish to engage with this issue and are interested in talking clearly about your realization, then just look that last comment of mine (referenced more than once in this comment itself, the one in letter/email format), and reply to it either directly on here via further comment, or else privately to me via Brian’s email. Or, of course, not, just as you please.
Over and out.

Appreciative reader,
I was somewhat amused and surprised at your last comment.
I do whatever I feel like. I reply to someone if I feel like it at the time.
If I don’t then I won’t reply.
You cannot demand a reply.
I am merely enjoying the moment here.
I will stop commenting at any time.
I was going to send you a detailed reply.
I could also post it on here.
It’s no big deal either way.
And the big issue you created in your mind about revealing your email is a non issue.
You just go to Hotmail or Gmail and press on create account
and create a new email. Then delete it once finished.
That was so easy.
Anyway don’t bother now because I will not reply.
You act as if I owe you a reply.
I don’t.

Appreciative reader wrote
” I am very intrigued by this disinclination of yours to engage with me. ”
There wasn’t one. I simply was going to reply in detail to you.
One on one. That’s why I was going to do it by email. So we could go back and forth as much as we pleased.
I have no idea why you went off the deep end as if you are entitled to a reply
And the pattern you see doesn’t exist. I have hardly ever offered to continue a discussion by email with anyone before. So don’t know where you got that from.
I gave the email to manjit because he is a personal friend.

–
So Sad Charan s first 4 lines of EVERY Satsang are completely forgotten here.
The whole RSSB Path is about Happiness and LOVE ( Hardly ever ever mentioned here )
google Love+hinessight.blogs.com
Charan :
Why are people unhappy > Because they are attached to perishable things
and in constant fear for the moment it will taken away from them
So,
Attach yourself to a sweet attractive eternal Item which is the Sound of Your Soul above your Eyes ( Soul : I was so free to add)
In This delicious Reverberation, you can re-place your Self , just INTO it
and this Elixer will let you forget all temporal desires
THIS IS IT
a collateral secondary delight is that you are experiencing that You are that Indestructible eternal phenomenon and will never die
You are invulnerable forever
Wow
as for me >< advaita : the way is as delicious as is the Goal (as some seem to need a target 🙂 ) my slogan is : "It take two to dance the Tango" My sweet Guide ( He is also that Music ) and me 777 - ps no humble-fixation today 🙂

Goku:
Here is something Rajneesh said:
“A master should not be asked why. If you ask the master why, you have not accepted him as the master. Then your relationship remains of reason. And reason cannot relate with a master. It is a deep trust, the relationship is of love and trust. If he says it, then it must be so, then there must be something in it. And there was something in it.”
Osho, can you explain what the other Osho meant?
Osho:
He is speaking of the connection between a Master and a disciple. It is a unique connection. Without that connection it is impossible to be with a master.
It is not that he cannot answer the “Why” question, He can. However those who are on his path connect at a deeper level, which is beyond the mind. That is why he can contradict his own statement and it makes no difference. They understand what he is saying because they connect. He calls it communion.
He makes a clear distinction between a “Master” and a “Teacher”. A teacher is simply imparting information. A Master is simply Being. He doesn’t care about what he says or how. The words are irrelevant. What is important is the state of communion and deep trust between the master and the disciple. This communion and deep trust is irrelevant in the case of teacher and student, because only information is being given.
Goku:
“Oh and are you sure that you don’t have a belief that ” There can’t any form beyond time and space”?
Osho:
The statement that form cannot exist if there is no time and space is not a belief. Form means it has a boundary (a beginning and an end). And that means space is needed.
Goku:
“You haven’t seen it all.” So, things you haven’t seen can’t be called false.
Why are you using your mind to present arguments about something that can’t be understood using the mind?
Osho: but this is something that clearly can be understood using the mind.
Goku:
What is your kind of enlightenment? It’s giving up. And making yourself believe that you’ve achieved all there is to be achieved. I guess that’s why Kabir couldn’t help Bharma.
Osho: I am not “making” myself believe anything at all. That is your interpretation because you only believe, hence you project that state onto others.
Goku:
The one who returns(Mirdad), collects and burns all the shadows in the Sun. Have you read his book?
Osho:
A long time ago. Can’t comment unless I read it again.
Goku:
You called me a person with too many concepts. Aren’t you a minimalist when it comes to keeping concepts! But the concepts you have, you hold them very dear to you.
Osho: What concepts are you referring to? Please explain.
Gpku:
I never said that you are supposed to know everything.
Osho:
What you wrote was: “Do enlightened people need to guess?”
Implying that I don’t need to guess. Why not? Because I am supposed to know? Is that not what you meant? Or have I guesses wrong again?
Goku:
I don’t care about the experiences people have had and shared over here. I don’t think they are any real, for a person who shares them should’ve had a waking up experience. The experience is experienced to be much more real than the world. And people having lucid dreams or hallucinations have less awareness or consciousness than normal state.
True experiences occur in a state of much higher awareness. And hence, they eliminate any reason to share them with others.
Osho: People who meditate have their eyes closed and what they experience is with eyes closed. Now you can say it is a superconscious state. However, that is just something you have read. Have you had any such experience that you can verify is a superconscious state?
Perhaps Jim can help out here.

Osho, Goko,….I have posted on different forums, over the years since 1988, sharing inner experience phenomenon, but looking back, other than what I have shared here recently, my experiences prior to reaching the ” Void” as I do most of the time, at anout 45 minutes in, the experiences are quite repetitious of the sign posts Sawan Singh said to expect, in his meditation lesson he shared in his Book, ” Spiritual Gems.” But the ” Star” he mentions,….for me, always looks more like a swirling silver white Vortex, with a tiny black center, that suddenly appears at the Third Eye focus, bobs up and down, left to right, right to left, challenging me to chase it! But once it is focused, or stabilized and quits moving, then…..”i” am either sucked in to the black hole in it, or,….or, it moved towards me and swallows “me” up! Then, usually “i” end up in the Void. Presently, I believe this swirling Vortex of Light is most likely, my Higher Soul Self, my Guide, from which ” Jim ” has projected from , or the personality that has taken santuary in Jim’s changing, impermanant physical body. Where the Master gets in to this scenero, is that He operates from his own Higher Soul Self, and has figured out how to travel most of the Spiritual Planes, where I am still inable to do, as Jim. But, I continue to practice. The following is on my blog, which I posted in Lane’s RSS forum many years ago, which most of the old members still posting and lurking here, have seen before. But in case you and Goko have not, hete it is again.
The following is a post I shared on a Meditation site in 2003 about a peak Meditation experience I had, when I first started experimenting with meditation. I have decided to post it here, so I may access it before I forget it altogether. Of course, there are many methods and paths that teach students how to leave their material bodies and Astral travel, as the Apostle Paul and most of the old Testament Prophets did. My way was/is unorthodox, and was very time consuming, but proved to me that “I” am not bound to my physical body and have access to other dimensions when ever I choose to put in the time and effort to have a change of scenery, so to speak! I was never into Drugs at any time, other than alcohol, which I gave up altogether at age 35 ., Without further explanation, ….for now, here it is, just as I shared it in 2003.
Now, for what I found and did not find, in my Space Cadet tours:
As stated before, I never saw any light nor heard any sound before initiation. At initiation, and being free of flesh foods for 90 days, alcohol and drugs for 10 years, I did see a few small “sparks” of light and did hear some “conch or sea shell” sounds when Thakar stuck his thumb in my ear!
After I got home and started to practice on my own, using the simran and Bajan technique, I saw flashes of light that lasted longer, and heard sound that was louder. I took my lessons from Sawan’s book, “Spiritual Gems.” I spent two years meditating under thakar’s regime, both home and with others at his meetings, but was never able to get any further then the flashes of light nor hear any sound without plugging my ears with my thumbs. Many of Thakar’s desciples carried around “bajan sticks” everywhere with them. It was a stick shaped like a cross or tee about 3 ft. high. you could sit down in a chair and put or rest your arms on the cross at the top of the stick, and plug your ears with your thumbs for long periods, without exhausting your arms. It seems not very many meditators I saw in Thakar’s group spent much time in bajan. they mostly used the sticks, or just sat in chairs plugging their ears, and many used real ear plugs. I tried all of the above, but never got beyond the flashes of light, nor conch sound only when the ears were plugged. So, boredom sat in after a couple of years, and I was either ready to jump the fence to greener pastures, or quit, altogether. I talked to many Kirpal initiates who had come to Thakar, and most of them were on the same experience level as I, i.e. bored!! I can’t ever remember meeting Thakar on the inside. During my early attempts at meditation, I did see many phantom like people I didn’t recognize, and even demon like creatures who taunted me! I also felt like I was always off balance, or was ready to lift off my meditation chair, but never really did. I would seem to fall asleep, and my head would fall forward onto my chest, and I would wake up choking or gasping for air, as my wind pipe would be cut off. I read where a master tied his hair to a tree, so his head would stay up, but, I am bald, so that wouldn’t work for me! So, I tilted my recliner chair I was meditating in just back far enough, so that my head would not fall on my chest, but my spine would stay straight. But, as XXXXX testified about her meditation experiences, there was mostly a lot of snoring. At the satsang meeting, we would meditate as a group, and there would be many snoring! so, doubts began to set in for me, and I started to explore new possibilities. I read Darshan Singh’s books, went to a couple of his meetings. I didn’t like his looks, and his talks never got a hook in me. I read Ajib Singh’s books, and liked them, and sent for his tapes. He didn’t speak English, so needed an interpreter, and I just couldn’t feel any heart strings pulling me in his direction. As I said, I was reading Agra books, and enjoyed them, but RSSB books really moved my soul the most! I began to feel I wanted to find how I could get initiation from Charan. ( Before I forget, when I finally did get initiated by Roland DeVries ( Roland was an Ex Penticostal Preacher with a Th.D. Degree from Ashbury Theological Seminary, so a Brother of my own Ilk) by proxy for Charon, I was first surprised that the simran was the same, but he went into more detail about the bajan posture. The reading of the initiation ceremony from charan was moving and interesting for me, but in all, I was disappointed in the simplicity of the initiation itself, as it seemed to be just a carbon copy of Thakar’s and I had already wasted two years using that method without any significant or satisfying results. I left there actually not very encouraged that I would get any more then I already had.
I went home and started the same old meditation routine, but just changed my visualization from Thakar to Charan. It was difficult to make the transition at first, because I had seen Thakar many times in person, and even had been laser beam zapped by him, but had never seen Charan in person. But, I bought his videos at satsang, and every cassette tape that was available and began to view the tapes. The transition began to really take a hold on me, and after listening to hundreds of his tapes with all the usual Q & A sessions in India, I became an “Arm Chair Desciple.” I can’t really say I fell in love with Charan, long distance, because he had already left the body before we had a chance to establish any real relationship such as most of you core satsangees had with him, but I did really develope a very strong fondness for him. ( I will try and describe my present feeling for him and reasons in a later post.)
I must say, after what I considered the boring initiation by Roland DeVries,( I have always wondered if he reads these posts, or if he might even be an Xer or at least a Lurker on the fence?) I must confess my meditation expierience took off in leeps and bounds as I applied the time sitting. I religiously sat from 4:30 AM until 7:00 AM for seven years. My job schedule allowed me the liberty of doing so, but, I changed jobs, and could no longer keep any definite schedule, and until now, my meditations were hit and miss, 30 min. to an hour here and there.
But, I progressed to large flases of light, even like lighning bolts, as Sawan said would happen. I first saw bright light, bright as the sun, a golden color. Then, beyond the sun, I saw a silvery white sphere, that looked like the moon, Sawan said that would be there. Please note, I never saw everything all at once, and it took about five years before I progressed past the moon. Then, after the moon, I saw what I think Sawan refered to as The Star. For me, the star was not 5 pointed, but it actually looked like a glittering diamond, to a silvery white glittering lotus flower. There was a black center in the star, and I fought to keep my focus on the center looking at the black hole. Suddenly, either the star started moving towards me real fast, or I started to be sucked into the vortex of the black hole in the star. I don’t know which, to this day. But, with a lot of practice, I finally was sucked through the center of the star, and that’s when the real experiences began! Don’t ask me what plane of level or realm I was on, I just don’t know.
But, after I broke through the “Black Hole” of the Lotus, I seemed to be in outer space, but the sky was a very bright blue, more blue then any blue sky I have ever experienced. Plus, I was traveling at a very high rate of speed. I felt like I was still sitting in the meditation position, and like I was on a magic carpet. I fought to maintain my balance as it felt like I kept slipping off the carpet and would turn on my side or up side down. I kept focusing right at the center but, was able to see a round planet of some type on my left far ahead, and also another larger planet, (round) on my right, far ahead of me. I was moving so fast, that I actually felt (or seemed to) feel the wind in my face and my hair, (what little I had left) blowing in the wind. When the speed increased to WARP speed, I started to panic, and looked back from where I came from, and as God is my witness, I actually saw the earth back there with all the water and land masses, just like we see from the space shots. I really panicked, then, and…….,ZAPP! I woke up back in by body, or back from the space cadet trip, at least. Now, if all those experiences were the results of just brain neurons firing, I sure seemed to have a lot of input and control on the methodology of having taken the trip. This was my peak experience, and I only went that far out once. But, I spent many more years trying to get there and beyond, with out the success again. I was able to (and am still able) to get to the star, but am never allowed to go through the black hole, or portal again. ( Guess after giving away my experience to ya’ll, I won’t even see any more flashes or specks of light, but, I’m OK with that, too.)
I also had many OBEs, and went through walls, ceilings, through the roof, and rode my magic carpet over the houses in my neighborhood. It seemed I always kept picking up speed to WARP until I panicked, and ZAPP! I landed back in my body in my meditation chair with a noticeable THUD.
Well, that’s the high lights of my meditation experiences, for what ever its worth to the club. I trust I may also be put into the “Loony” category by some here, along with other past posters who chose to bare more of their experiences than some are ready to hear, but, that’s OK. As they say, “different strokes for different folks.”
I must say, before I move on, none of these past experiences presently make me feel any more spiritual nor stroke my ego. I only witness that they happened to me, and I am still able to get at least to the star, using the RSSB technique described by Sawan in “Spiritual Gems.” Will it save me from The Wheel of 84?” You be the judge.
Eternal Flame

To Appreciative Reader
I must admit, that the way you perceive the response from a commenter is quite appreciable and the way you ask for the details you seek is quite inviting.
And your comments themselves are quite well formed and readable. Thanks for your contribution to this ever growing encyclopedia of the accounts of spiritual struggle which Brian has beautifully named as Church of the Churchless – there couldn’t be a better name to it.
AR: “On small quibble/question… ”
OI:
Well, honestly, I do not know much about the chakras and I have not yet witnessed the chakras by visual experience. And I think that’s a very advanced stage and a recognizable inner height when you can really introspect (by turning back and looking at yourself) your own construction and the chakras clearly. Why I mentioned about Crown is because there’s where I feel the ultra sensations (both at the time of inexplicable experiences and when at the feet of my Master).
Just to repeat myself here again, the experiences I experience takes a great deal of effort, as in, a plentiful of time spent in the meditation, because I am not a good meditator who sincerely follows a schedule and do it without a break of a day – I actually consider myself a pretty bad meditator and it’s mostly a mix of some good sessions for a week long then some times just spending 5 minutes a day for another 2-3 weeks and then again some good sessions. And I have plethora of reasons for myself to justify the gaps – which are all bad I know – but yeah, this is my current state.
Back to the point, the experiences I experience takes a great deal of effort, as in, a plentiful of time spent in the meditation and reaching the state of shortened breath – whereas the same level of experience and even much much grand and subtle at same time with I would say 100x frequency happens when I am at the feet of my Master during HIS satsang – and it takes no effort – simply no effort – just HIS presence starts it all.
About Tantric procedures and Kundalini, I do not have much insights into those, I have read various texts on it a bit early in my life but none of them struck a chord in my heart. By HIS grace, I was born to a Radha Soami family and was very much keen on getting initiated in very early life, I spent quite a few years in just waiting to be 25 and apply for the same.
At the same time I was very much interested in reading everything related to the subtle worlds and this I did spend quite a bit of time in reading whatever I had access to.
I maybe totally wrong and I do not intend to hurt the sentiments of anyone who is following this, but in my opinion the reach of Tantric and Kundalini procedures are way below as compared to the Sant Mat (or the equivalent path if someone wants to name it differently).
Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj have explained the Kundalini procedures and it’s achievements at length in HIS discourses which I read in the books’ series known as “SantMat Prakash” (in Hindi) – I don’t remember it’s name in the english language (if you want I can inquire and tell you). It’s basically an amazing collection of the text literally based on HIS discourses as recorded on paper by various disciples.
Also, when we read the Kundalini procedures that it starts from the Root Chakra and goes all the way to Crown Chakra and comes back to merge in the Root, it appears similar to the Surat Shabd Yog however, it’s not to my perception.
In fact many masters of Kundalini do really believe that it’s exactly what Surat Shabd Yog is but really it isn’t. The book available with the name “Surat Shabd Yog” was actually written by a Kundalini practitioner and what that guru is explaining in the book is not SSY but actually Kundalini awakening.
But again, to mention, this is all my bookish knowledge and understanding based on the various texts on the topic of Kundalini as I have not done any experiment myself on it – because I never get any attraction in these subjects when I compared these with the Sant Mat. And these interpretations may sound as absurd as the comments of manjit sounded to me.
Having said that, there is no doubt that there can be more than one True Living Master on the planet at the same time.
At once place, Sawan Singh Maharaj Ji even mentioned that it’s also true that a True Master comes on earth to take back only one soul – and that Master will not be known to any other person on the planet as the True Master but only to that soul who was HIS responsibility.
So, I think it will be wrong to say that there are no other True Masters present at this moment on earth, there maybe. But, I surely know that Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj is surely the current True Living Master.
To Majit
Thanks for adding your experience for others to read through. That was a great post to read actually.
However, I do not agree with your critical comments on my experiences – and I don’t want to add much to that because it’s all your perception and everyone has his own perception.
manjit: “You’re making progress! If only you had somebody competent to guide you through those experiences, because for sure RS is woefully inadequate to guide in comparison to Daoism and Buddhism!”
OI:
You mentioned that you are not a follower of RS and neither initiated by Babaji – your above comment is as vague as it can be and doesn’t hold any value for the fact that there are many who by HIS grace know what HE is and that Anami Purush is giving satsang during all these years via RSSB at Beas in the form of Babaji Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj.
You have no idea what is running through the inner worlds of somebody else, but you are giving your verdicts on other’s experiences based on your perceptions and not based on your own real matching experiences.
Which might also be good from your standpoint because you decided and accepted your own perception and that will sound best to you and that is the way you decided to go and proceed with, just that majority of your interpretation and comments are false, bookish and at times manipulated to suit your own intellect and doesn’t hold good grounds.
However, it doesn’t matter to me how you perceive and interprets it – surely it will matter to you.
To Jim
I did read this text earlier in one of the posts about your magic rug experiences and I am reading it again and it’s just as joyful to read it again as the first time. Thanks so much for sharing it. I have bookmarked it this time 🙂
Lots of love to everyone.

Jim Sutherland,
are you of the opinion that what you had and what other sant mat meditators experience is Astral Projection, or something different?
If it is astral projection, there are specific techniques that are far more effective.
Here is one link I just found about astral projection and what it is like. Does this match your experience?
https://www.thoughtco.com/astral-projection-doorway-to-new-dimension-2594852

here is another link showing how to master the process
http://www.becomealivinggod.com/soul-travel/5-steps-accessing-higher-magickal-planes.php
also came across this by kirpal singh about the soul’s journey
https://www.beezone.com/kirpalsingh/the_souls_journey.html
then came across this about the lower astral plane
http://www.rickrichards.com/astral/Astral5.html
It the sant mat path leads to astral projection, there are many far more
scientific techniques to get that result.
there are even lucid dreaming devices that detect REM and flash lights at the appropriate time to gently awaken the dreamer so he just get enough awareness to witness the dream and then step into it and direct the dream.

Here’s the point about the experiences of sant mat followers.
I had them also when I used to meditate.
The light and sound it no big deal. Dave Lane in his experiment has proven that it’s no big deal. And I know RSSB followers who have never even seen light.
The more profound experiences of leaving the body and going to the astral and higher regions: the question is what is actuallu happening?
If it is astral projection, then why have all the dogma? Just use the most effective techniques.
After all, Jim, you are pretty much on your own. There is no real guidance as the guru is pretty much inaccessible.
You could argue that the inner guru can give guidance, but how do you know it is real?
I had a question back in the days when i was following this path, and I used to ask all the gurus I went to and none could answer.
My question was this:
IF (and it’s a big if) the radiant form gives guidance and the disciple can ask any question and get the answer from the radiant form which really is the guru, then…..
How come there are so many successors of Kirpal? and they are not friends.
So, if Thakar Singh, to take one example, had the radiant form of the master within him, and it guided him, then surely the radiant (inner) guru will say to Thakar, “Listen, Kiddo, you’re not there yet, stop being a false master and just do some more meditation” And it could also tell him who the real master was.
But this doesn’t happen.
So my question was, if there are so many people claiming to be successors, the radiant form MUST guide them and stop them being fake masters.
Darshan said “They don’t even get to the radiant form” to which I replied, that if that is the case, then they must know 100% that they are fake because if you dont even get to the radiant form, how can you be a master?
So one thing is certain; If the radiant form is really the master – and if more than one person is claiming successorship, then the inner form should be able to stop this from happening. Or if they are both masters, they why the enmity between them? They would have harmonious relationships, not have court cases running against each other.
if a person doesn’t even have the radiant form, then he knows he is a fake.
If he does have the radiant form – it can’t the real because it would then stop the fake one from acting as a master.
anyone got any ideas?

To Osho: Lots of questions,….that I have no answers for. The early Astral Projection experiences I had, were early meditation experiences, most likely, carry overed from my ten years study and projection exercises with Rosicrucians, AMORC.
Truthfully, I think OBEs and APs are just Mind Candy, to convince Soul Travelers that they, ( we) really are, Spiritual Beings, having human experiences in a physical body. Once we become convinced we are souls, wrapped in minds, using Causal, Astral, and physical forms, then we no longer need those childish experiences. ( per Manjit de illusion) I rarelly have them any more, during meditation. If and when I do, I no longer linger there, but pass thru quickly.
I think Sant Mat Meditation Technique keeps us out of the body, below the eyes, but keeps us in the head above the Third Eye, but does not release or project thru the Crown Chakra to outer space like I did in that Space Cadet Launch. That was an authentic Astral Projection, as taught by the Monroe Institute, in Virginia, founded by the late Bill Monroe who wrote the Bible on Out of Body Experiences. They use Meditation in closed chambers using Sound Audio called Hemi Synch. The Internet has hundreds of the Audios on youtube. They have a closed group like this one, called TMI interested OBErs may join. There are authentic stories of those doing almost nightly Astral Projections. Here is the Link.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TMIOBE/?multi_permalinks=1399603970125973%2C1399062526846784%2C1398645493555154%2C1398913690195001&notif_t=group_activity&notif_id=1496762622054267
Sant Mat Meditation does NOT induce Astral Projections, unless they happen by accident. Surat Shabd Yoga is not like these exercises, but they do some times happen, as even Kundalini does.
As for being guided inside by the Master’s Radiant Form, all I reported, was my single clear, audable visit, by Charan Singh , instructing me that my body needed Asprin. I even argued with him, but he listened, then told me to just use less. What more do I need to hear from him that I don’t already know, that he already spent 40 years sharing, most of it on Audio, and in his Books? Its all there.
As for all the other master questions, I have no answers, mostly, because they are not important enough for me to research. Exers who are always looking to substanciate their excuses for not keeping the Vows or trying to live as they promised to do when accepted for Initiation, are those always asking these kinds of questions that have no answers.
You asked, ……kind of sarcastic wise what ” Hansas” are. In a prior post, I offered an answer that you missed, because you never commented. I think the Hansas SEEN in Sach Khand, by souls reaching, or entering there, are HIGHER SOUL SELVES, that are Bubbles, or Spheres containing all the past life personalities of each, individual created soul. They include every single completed Sant Mat Master, as well as other Masters, since the Dawn of Creation.

I came across this youtube video of kirpal
contains lots of quotes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GhKpsF2Uiw
at 15:05 the quote is
“The Master’s only purpose in incarnating is to shower grace on us.”
When people ask Gurider for “Grace” He says “You already have grace”
Jim, How do you view “Grace”?

Jim,
you are of the opinion that the inner experiences (if they have any) of RSSB followers are NOT astral projection. Is that correct?
When you met Charan Singh – was that not his astral form?
And when a disciple leaves his body and sees the radiant form – does that not happen on the astral? And then the teachings say the master will take the disciple into further regions.
How would that be different from an astral projection on the astral plane.
Do you have any experience of going beyond the astral onto further regions?
I have met people who claim to have gone to Sach Khand. However they speak of things they see there and seeing the guru there.
If we accept the premise that real = formless then this should not be possible

To Osho: If you don’t believe any Master has answers to your questions,….did you ever consider, you might be asking the wrong questions. If you no longer meditate, listening to Shabd, do you ever Pray, asking for answers? If do, WHO are you expecting to answer you?
You said David Lane proved that any one can see light and hear sound, no big deal. If so, why didn’t he quit meditating, as you did? Why does he continue to waste his precious time still doing the Sant Mat Meditation?
I sorted out why I still do it, and tried to explain why, on my blog. Here is where I was a few years ago:
ASKING QUESTIONS AND TRUSTING THE ANSWERS?
WE all ask questions when we either pray, or meditate, or contemplate, or just plain day dream. But, WHO answers our questions, when we think we receive answers, and if we direct our questions to any specific character, spirit, master, or whom ever, how can we be certain we are not just imagining any answers we think we receive?
Christians pray to Jesus, Mary, or Saints, depending on what Denomination they happen to belong to. Many believe they have a direct link, or private hot line to Jesus, or the Father, or The Holy Spirit.
Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, as well as all other religious sects also believe they receive their answers from their chosen masters, deities, saints, etc. But, do they really, and if so, are the answers they receive reliable?
Even Atheists, and Materialists ask and receive answers from ???? But, are the answers reliable, and how can they be proven to be accurate?
All humans have faith in some one, or some thing, or they could not survive in any society. WE all claim to be members of some thing, be it Nationalism, Politics, religion, science, race, etc.
But, what about when we die, or leave our material bodies, to discover what ever we “think” will be waiting for us? Or, not discover, if there is nothing in the spirit realm outside materialism to discover?
Religious Scholars are able to create un-ending Dogmas from any “Holy Book”, such as the Christian Bible, or numerous other Holy Books from other religious sects. But, if any of these Dogmas are really holy, why haven’t even a single one of them caused all killing and wars to cease? Why is killing other species, lower on the food chain, not been replaced with a non-lethal method of survival in material bodies with out killing and eating lower species, depending on where they happen to incarnate on the food chain on planet earth?
What if we, as humans, suddenly found our selves in the food chain, raised and dominated by some species more intelligent and dominant than our selves, and we suddenly became food for that species, as cattle , fowl, fish, are for we humans?
Of course, there have been answers offered to these hard questions in many “Holy Books”, but, outside of India, and a few Asian counties, who pays attention to writings that claim ALL killing is Karma creating, including killing other species to consume, eat, and use as slaves, or to violate as non-living objects? Unless one believes at all in karma, and reincarnation, then, who cares if all non humans are continued to be exploited by humans?
If visitors have read any of my Blog, it can be easily seen, that I have pondered most questions regarding religions, metaphysics, etc. But, there comes a time, when one must cut to the chase, and decide for oneself, what one REALLY believes enough in, to put his/her faith into letting it all hang out, so to speak, considering that since the Bible grants a normal believer 70 years in a human body, average, then, I am already a couple of years into my Bonus years! So, its time for me to sort out what I say, from what I believe, to what I put my faith in, to what I DO. As I read the Obituaries daily, and witness my relatives, friends, and acquaintances, or even strangers pass on, or leave their human bodies, it becomes more real than reading some Holy Book, and picking one of the millions of Dogmas argued about since writing became available, and putting all faith in one or more.
For me, personally, I have traveled the religious “Seeking Path” much further than most others I have ever been able to have a reasonable conversation with, about such personal issues that most humans do not wish to discuss with others. I have spent enough time, study, experimentation, practice, praying, meditating, to be able to KNOW, that NO HUMAN really KNOWS EXACTLY, where they will go, immediately after dying and leaving the body! Talk is cheep, and faith is not proof of any thing! Faith is the “substance, of things HOPED for, the EVIDENCE of things NOT seen.” ( Hebrews 11:1) I could suddenly revert back to being the Preacher I once was, spewing every word that left my mouth plagiarized from the Bible, and was able to have an answer for every single statement that any other human made, taken from a Bible Dogma. But, I have been there, and it caused many divisions among my family and friends. Most Christians have buried me as a Heretic, long, long before I died! I am still raving on, so it appears my Creator is not finished with me yet, and I am still open to what ever “Mission” that is required of me, while in the human body this time around!
But, along the way, I have placed my bets and as many possibilities of progressing in spiritual “Heavens” as is possible. But, cutting to the spiritual chase, if I die tonight, and do not wake up in this human body in the morning, I have to decide before I fall asleep, just where I believe I will find what’s left of “me”????? IF I do survive as a separate, individual spirit, away from this present body. ( Y’all do, as well, whether Y’all are ready to admit it or not. If not, perhaps your much younger than I, much healthier, and have not yet let go of your belief in eternal mortality.
But, for me, will Jesus, a Man/God character described in 4 Gospels of the New Testament Christian Bible be waiting for me with His open arms to greet me as soon as I find myself outside my human dead body? Hmmmm. Serious thought. If I was once alive in a human body during the time Jesus was a human, I can not remember. Therefore, if I did meet him in person, face to face, I would not recognize some one I can’t remember ever meeting. I know, we have his pictures all over the Internet, but, can we really trust and believe that is what he would look like in the spirit realm, or where ever he happens to be, when we leave our bodies? According to the Book of Hebrews, he sits at the right hand of the Father, as our Intercessor. But, how many of us know, or have ever met the Father of Jesus, or our own Father??? ( Spirit Father, not human father.) As for me, I have already sorted out who the “Father” is, in my own understanding. I once studied with Jehovah’s Witnesses, even going door to door, on Saturdays, doing “Service” for Jehovah. I had all their books, and studied their Dogma, and went to their “Kingdom Halls” several times weekly, almost to the point of becoming one of their Zombie slaves. But, I never became baptized as a Witness, and finally left their Sect, after loosing my faith in their Jehovah. Presently, I do NOT believe that the Old Testament character in the Christian Bible was the “Father” that Jesus called his Father, or Who sent him. That Old Testament Jehovah was a jealous, angry, character, who was ???? Each will have to decide for them selves, but Jehovah is NOT the Eternal Spirit I put my trust and faith of individual survival in, or my promise of Eternal life.
I believe in John Calvin’s Dogma of what might be called the Christian Reformed Faith, or “Once Saved, Always Saved.” My Theology to back up my belief in Eternal Security can be viewed on this blog, and was my Master of Ministry Degree Thesis I wrote in 1983 for my Seminary. Calvin’s Dogma consists of “Election, Reprobation, Predestination, and Eternal Security.” I since have added to the Dogma, Reincarnation and Karma, which lines up perfectly, as well as explains how it operates, and why it is the perfect Justice of our Creator!
So, reincarnation signifies that a created spirit, as not only past lives, and most likely as many as it has taken to finally arrive at Salvation, but, once saved, always saved, and there should no longer require any future incarnations, or reincarnations into material species. But, the KEY becomes, KNOWING, that we truly ARE saved!!! I have my own personal Faith, Y’all will have to ponder on your own.
Since I “believe” I have had many, many, past lives, in other material bodies, not only here on earth, but even possibly on other planets before I took births here, I now live in my own parallel spiritual Universe! As the Apostle Paul was quoted to have explained, “Absent from the body, present with The Lord.” And, he was once caught up in the spirit, where he didn’t know just which spiritual plane or heaven he was in. Many religious sects divide the spiritual realms, or planes, starting with material, ascending to higher spiritual planes, and one of the Sects I studied with divides it into 12 Planes. My Rosicrucian studies divides it into, either material, or spiritual, in, or out of the body. They simplify it. They teach that our entire earth goal is to discover our own “Master within.” But, they never tell us just WHO this mysterious Master is! The East Indian Gurus I studied with, taught that the master who taught us, was the Master to look for, inside, who would lead us to where ever we were supposed to go. But, very few ever meet these supposed masters with in.
I believe that my own Master within, is my own personal Universal spiritual guide, who has been giving me the answers to all my questions ever since I took birth in this body and have been asking questions and asking for guidance! That guide has been my “Point Guide.” WE” have been in a war of spiritual progression since creation.
I believe this guide, is actually, my combined historical combination, of all my past life personalities, and hoovers closely to my material body. When I am awake, a partial beam of projected consciousness is projected from my Universal spiritual guide, into my material body, but my body filters shade 90% of the knowledge that exists in my Universal guide, which is my own, historical, combined past live experiences, in all material bodies and existences, on all planets, since the very first second of my spirit creation! Hard to swallow, but very easy to digest, once leaving the body, and being present with The Lord, as Paul said, and as I have experienced during meditation. But, falling asleep nightly, unlocks the prison gate from the body, and allows the spirit to visit the Universal guide, or the other past lives guide, which is the actual guide waiting to welcome me back to the spirit realm as soon as I take my last breath here!
Then, the new mysterious experiences will begin, and I will wait to see where my total historical past life spirit guide will take me!
Of course, my guide is subject to higher Spiritual Guides, who also are working in the Chain of Command, all the way to our Highest Spiritual Creator, Who will remain a mystery to me, at least, until I KNOW that I KNOW. All I know so far, is, I AM, that I AM. But, I AM ready,….for what ever awaits me, Are Y’all?
I choose to call this Universal Creator Spirit that animates ALL life on ALL planets, CHRIST in us, the Hope of Glory!!
Until we meet again, here or there, I remain,
Eternal Flame

Osho, It was Charan’s Astral Form that I encountered,….that he projected in to my Third Eye when he i initiated me, Feb 4, 1990, which is always with me, and will never leave me. So, I never projected to meet him. I only got his attention to manifest to my Third Eye, INSIDE my head. His Radiant Firm would be completely different, on the Causal Plane, ..if Ireach there. If not while living, for certain he will meet me at death, to guide me to my next Mission.
David Lane posted here, some time ago, why he still meditates. He will have to return here and revise, if he has changed his mind or meditations since his recent DERA visit, if he dares to come out of his Bunker, and be interviewed by the Exers who have admired his rebellion for years.
http://integralworld.net/lane102.html

We have physical eyes which help us see 3 dimensional objects.
Then there is the eye of the mind. What does it sees?
How about the eye of the awareness? It’s the ability of awareness to become aware of something.
What is hearing? What’s seeing?
They have a different meaning in the physical, mental and spiritual realm.
Anything you imagine is actually formless, even thought your imagination has given it a form. And that’s because the imagined thing doesn’t exists.

Jim,
I was reading Brian’s latest posting about objective and subjective reality.
In many ways the “enlightenment” of the Buddha and Osho and others is not really an “Enlightenment” as most people think of it, at all.
Why not? Because it is the end of the life-long held beliefs. Only they don’t deny the beliefs or turn against them. Instead they see clearly how ridiculous the beliefs were.
The Buddha did not find God. But he did not spend his denying that She exists. Instead he spoke of a Nirvana – which was a negation of everything. The ultimate emptiness, if you will.
So utterly empty that he had to coin the word nirvana to make it clear that it is nothing.
When asked “So did you find this enlightenment?” He replied NO.
“So you failed?” “No” replied Buddha,
“I now know there is nothing to seek because there is nothing to be found.”
He is not saying he BELIEVES there is nothing. He has dropped the belief.
Osho is similar: Anyone who gives you a belief system is your enemy he says.
(just google it on youtube if you want more info)
Here (below) in this video he talks of belief vs trust
He is using trust in his own way – his own version, like he does with many words.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGywQhDqmnY
“if you believe in my statements, you are going to be crazy. They are so contradictory,
You will not be able to figure out what I actually I want to say to you” – Osho
He is doing this because there is nothing to say, nothing to convey. And no dogma, no teachings, no system, no religion can be made from this words.
Although, having said that, the Osho centres are still going and people listen to his words, do the meditations, and pretty soon it will become another religion.
Jim Wrote :
“It was Charan’s Astral Form that I encountered,….that he projected in to my Third Eye when he i initiated me, Feb 4, 1990, which is always with me, and will never leave me. So, I never projected to meet him. I only got his attention to manifest to my Third Eye, INSIDE my head. His Radiant Firm would be completely different, on the Causal Plane, ..if Ireach there. If not while living, for certain he will meet me at death, to guide me to my next Mission.”
If we get really objective about all this, and accurate on what is objective reality and what is a belief, as uncomfortable as it may be, we would re-word the statement that you (Jim) made above to separate the real from the belief.
So it might read something like this:
I BELIEVE it was Charan’s Astral Form that I encountered, which, according to what I believe was projected into my third eye on initiation and I believe it is always with me.
I believe I never projected to meet him. I believe I got his attention, so that he manifested in my third eye (inside me).
I also believe that his radiant form will be different on the Causal Plane (which is a place I believe exists as I have not been there). I also believe that he will certainly meet me after death, to guide me to my next fictional mission (as I don’t really know if I am on one).
Now this, of course is not easy to do, because – here’s the issue:
Once a belief is acquired, is appears to be true to that person. As true as any other fact.
I was speaking to a muslim recently, and he said that the Koran came directly from God. I asked how he knew and he said it was a matter of fact. He also said the pages of the Koran were found by Mohammed, growing on trees, and he just collected them.
This is not even what the religion says, but to him it is a fact because probably someone close to him told him as a child.
It is hard if not impossible to remove life-long held beliefs, because they appear to be FACTS to the believer.
It is even harder to separate the facts from the fiction in an experience you have.

Goku:
Anything you imagine is actually formless, even though your imagination has given it a form. And that’s because the imagined thing doesn’t exists.
Osho:
The same logic applies. If it is formless – then it has no outline – so cannot be seen. If it can be seen it has a form. The formless cannot be seen because it has no form.
It doesn’t matter what the form is made of. Could be physical, astral or causal.
If you say it doesn’t exist – then it is formless. Then it cannot have a form and you cannot see it.
If you can see it – then it has a form and a shape. Then it does exist.

To Osho: Your arguments are of no value, if you actually BELIEVE that “you” no longer exist, and “i” am a brain washed creton that doesn’t exist. I have no further Philosophical arguments, nor Theology, nor Scriptures, to convince you that you may not be as spiritually enlightened as you imagine your self to be.
I could continue “reasoning” with you, as a Brother Initiate of a Spiritual Moral Master , Charan Singh, but you come up very short trying to convince me of any thing of value and lasting , that you could have received from a Scoundrel like Osho, your Master , you use to back up your arguements.
In a Court of Law, in ANY Democratic Country, in a Jury of our Peers, ……why would ANY sane, moral human being with our a criminal back ground, follow any thing taught by such an unmoral heretic like Osho as compared to Charan Singh?
Taking it a step further, using the Lurkers in Hine’s Church who don’t have a dog in the fight, nor are even initiated by either RSSB or other Sant Mat Sects, nor know either, you or me, personally, which one of us would a Jury of Church Lurkers consider the most believable,.and reliable,…you, the desciple of Osho, the Scoundrel with very limited moral values, ,..or me, the desciple of Charan Singh?
If you have a Face Book site, send me an invite, and you will be able to get an idea of the success of a Charan Desciple as compared to desciples of a Scoundral like Osho.
https://www.facebook.com/jim.sutherland.351

Osho Robbins is basically a foolish Nihilist.
Anything that doesn’t has a form doesn’t exist?
Okay, then what about consciousness? Does it has a form in this or any other universe/plane? No? So, it doesn’t exists?
When we talk about a God without attributes, we don’t consider existence to be an attribute. And that’s because there is nothing called nonexistent, no illusion of it beyond duality.
I’m not going to deal with your faith in the nihilist branch of Buddhism.
If nothing exists, then feel free to take a samadhi. You aren’t needed then. A person unaware of the truth of his existence isn’t of any use.

Goku, and Jim Sutherland
Forget what I say, do you consider the words of Charan Singh as truth?
So, let me quote what HE said, paraphrasing slightly to make it clear.
“He (GOD) is the ONLY ONE (that exists). Always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
How can we say that something is real when it is not permanent?” – Charan Singh (text in brackets is mine)
The reference to WAS, IS and ALWAYS simply means “encompasses all time and space” or you can say “Beyond Time and Space” – but leave this aside if you don’t agree.
What does this MEAN?
(1) If you are not permanent – then you are not real. (i.e you just APPEAR to be real – you don’t really exist)
(2) Everything within time and space is impermanent & unreal
(3) Except the ONE (GOD), nothing else EXISTS (i.e. is unreal)
I have assumed that if something is UNREAL then it doesn’t exist (even though it may appear to exist).
So a dream appears to be real – while in the dream state. Once you wake up, you will say “It was just a dream, it didn’t really happen.”
And this is the important part
The dream is UNREAL even though it appears to be real while it is happening.
In the same way “YOU” appear to be real while your life is happening.
So just follow this to its conclusion.
YOU (Jim) and ME (osho) are impermanent.
Anything that YOU or I see, experience, feel, taste, smell etc is also impermanent.
Why? Because EVERYTHING except the ONE is impermanent and unreal.
Charan Singh says so. This is from the statements that Charan Singh has made and you agree he made those statements.
Charan Singh also says there is no individual soul.
Because he says, “Except the ONE, nothing else exists.” (That means YOU and I)
So screw what I (Osho Robbins) says. Maybe I have no clue.
But will you also say “Screw what Maharaj Charan Singh Ji says?”
I don’t think so.
And now let’s be clear – that is EXACTLY what Maharaj Charan Singh says.
There is no getting away from it.
If I have stated anything above that is not directly deduced from Maharja Charan Singh Ji’s statements, then please reply back and explain exactly which part.
Otherwise – You have to accept the truth of this – or call your own guru a liar which I don’t think you will do.
There is no third option. If there is – present it to me.

–
Without attributes doen’t exist
“It ever grows” . . a la Fibonacci’s Golde Rule , . . . Splendid
777
–

Osho, you do what all Fundies do when quoting Charan Singh. You ” Proof Text”, or only pick and choose the isolated comments he made to specific people at that time, as proof of what you believe. But you convienently leave out other examples he said, such as souls recognize each other when reaching Sach Khand; the three Regions mentioned by others that they say are above, or higher than Sach Khand, are only Sub Divisions of Sach Khand; and when a single flame from a candle merges with a larger flame, then is taken back out, it still retains its individuality. So you conviently discard relevant statements that offer balance to Sant Mat Teachings in favor of Advaita Vedanta. Most Newbies won’t bother to even read the entire Article I posted that Charan wrote about his idea of Creation. So, they will be confused by your unbalanced rhetoric, which, YOU will need to balance in your Karmic accounting, before you will ever be able to escape the Wheel of 84, Charausi.
Osho wrote: “So a dream appears to be real – while in the dream state. Once you wake up, you will say “It was just a dream, it didn’t really happen.”
And this is the important part
The dream is UNREAL even though it appears to be real while it is happening.”
Jim Rebuts: Dreams some times ARE real. A couple of years ago, I was dreaming that “i” was watching two men, in white smocks, standing next to what looked like a person laying on a table, but I could not see the face. But one man looked like he was holding some thing in his right hand,..and probing in and out of the person on the table! He kept looking back at me, whete ever I was observing them from, which seemed to be about 30 feet away from them, in a room that first appeared like a restaurant kitchen. The other man also kept looking at me, as if he was guarding some thing, or assisting the other man. As I watched, I suddenly FELT excruciating pain, up my Butt, then another real tearing pain way up inside my Rectum!! I bolted up from my bed, feeling my self, and even checked if I was bleeding! After I calmed down, and gave the dream some thought, I was embarrassed to think, I might have been having a past life recall of being raped by these two men! A few days went by, and I kept trying to recall any past incidences in my life , this life, where I might have been abused, but could not remember even a single incidence. I started feeling guilty that I may have been raped in a past life.
About a week later, I was walking , doing my morning exercise in the forest, and Voila!! The remembrance of the dream came to me! A month before the dream, I had a Colonoscopy procedure done in a Hospital. During the procedure, an Anesthesiologist was assisting the Doctor who had the Camera Wand inserted in to my Rectom and he was videoing the Colan, and he also had told me he removed several Pollups he found in my Colon. So, My Astral Body was obviously out of my physical body, observing the procecure, but was out side of Space and time, and never reported back until I DREMPT a REAL event that DID happen.
So, some dreams ARE real.

Jim,
The statements I made of charan are correct.
I am not saying he has never made other statements.
However if he has made contradictory statements then there is a problem because everyone will be confused as they focus on different statements.
Are you saying that the particular statements I quoted are incorrect or out of context.
They were in response to direct questions
The statement does not need balancing. Either it is true or not.
If you are saying charan singh has said both then it means one or the other is untrue.
The statement I quoted is very clear.
If the opposite is just as clear then that explains why so many people are confused or just give up.

Jim,
I read your dream scenario.
The dream appears to be real while it is happening. That is why you feel emotions too while dreaming. You might laugh or cry or feel sad or happy.
Your dream appeared to be real. Then you woke up and realised those events did not happen in the physical world.
If they happen to be premonitions or related to an event like yours that is a special case but it was a dream nevertheless.
The point I was making is the dream seems real until it’s over.
It is the same with this life. This life seems real until it’s over.
Charan singh is saying that it is not real because “how can something that ends be real”

Osho, I concur that Charan taught we eventually will lose our individuality after the grand dissolution, but no one knows when that will occurr, as its necessary to continue having a creation for Marked souls to balance their Karma, by MEDITATION to seek the Path of returning to HIM, the Creator. If ou don’t meditate, how do you plan on escaping MAYA?
That doesn’t imply there is not individual souls, nor that they never existed, or don’t presently exist, or are impermanent.
Here is what Charan said, which certainly proves Gurinder Singh is not changing Sant Mat 101 to 102 and 203 as per your Videos.
Spiritual Perspectives, Vol. 1, Q & A # 20,21,………Charan said,….”You see, you bring together all the flames of the candles. The fire is one, yet every candle has a different root. You become God-then you become the Creator instead of the creation.”
question: ” Somebody has said each individual soul still maintains its individuality in a sense, and has its own particular shabd. Is that true?”
Charan answers: “There is no question of individuality at all. We all merge into one. Everything has come out of the Lord and the whole creation is nothing but his own projection. When the grand dissolution comes, There will be only one. everybody will merge back into the same source from where they have come. When there is one, there is no individuality. When he has projected himself in the form of creation, then so many individualities come. Our whole endeavor is again to become one, to lose this individuality which we have got by becoming a part of the creation and to merge back into the Creator and become one with the Creator. That is the effort, and that is the purpose of meditation. If we will still preserve our individuality there, then what is the point of meditation. We have so developed our ego in this world, our individuality, that we cannot intellectually conceive of the idea , ” How can I lose my individuality?” Now we are limited, then we become unlimited. Then we become one.”

For the sake of completeness, this is the Q&A I took the Charan Singh quote from.
“Q. 363. What was in the beginning?
A. First, there was only the Lord, who is without beginning and without end. He has projected Himself everywhere . There was nothing besides Him. He was the only one. All that we see is just His own projection. Everything is projected from Him. If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one. He is the only One-always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.
Q. 368. Everything, except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is eternal is real, is that right?
A. That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?”
Jim wrote:-
“you do what all Fundies do when quoting Charan Singh. You ” Proof Text”, or only pick and choose the isolated comments he made to specific people at that time, as proof of what you believe. But you convienently leave out other examples he said, such as souls recognize each other when reaching Sach Khand; the three Regions mentioned by others that they say are above, or higher than Sach Khand, are only Sub Divisions of Sach Khand; and when a single flame from a candle merges with a larger flame, then is taken back out, it still retains its individuality.”
No – I am taking an actual statement he made, and making sure it is in context. Then I am ASSUMING that he is telling the truth (i.e. his statement is TRUE).
After that – I am simply expanding on the statement to follow it to its logical conclusion.
I am not conveniently leaving out anything.
Charan Singh Is NOT ALONE in making those statements.
“Paltu – there is only ONE – there IS no other” – Paltu Sahib
“He (GOD) is the ONLY ONE (that exists). Always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
How can we say that something is real when it is not permanent?” – Charan Singh
If we just take that statement alone – it is saying that the ONE is all there is, was and will be.
If the ONE is ALL there is, can there be anything or anyone else?
Obviously not.
Either
(a) God or the ONE is “ALL THERE IS”
OR
(b) Charan Singh and Paltu have got it wrong
If it’s (a) then there is no Jim, or anyone else in existence (meaning that it’s all illusion or maya). And that is what all the scriptures say: That evertyung you see here is all unreal.
I can guarantee that if you hear that statement in a satsang or if Gurinder says it – you will accept it totally.
Just because “I” say it – you resist it like it’s some kind of weird idea.
If you hear a statement that Charan Singh makes (like the above) – do you just pay lip service to it and act like he never made the statement?
Or do you take it to be true?
Of course, you can disagree – if you can present a coherent argument for it.

Goku & Jim,
When Charan Singh makes a statement – how can you SELECTIVELY accept is as true?
I agree there may be statements he makes that say the opposite, but if that is the case, then surely some clarification is needed as to which is true?
At the very least there should be some explanation.
After all, if someone else makes a contradictory statement, you call them every name under the sun.
Goku: you call me a foolish Nihilist when I make a statement – and that is when I back it up with reason.
Charan Singh makes this statement that you clearly do NOT agree with – and what do you do?
Do you have a name for Him also?
Or do you now agree with His statement?
This is the problem with faith. Anything your guru says you accept totally just because He said it. But have you really accepted it, or are you just pretending?
Because when I make the same statement, you disagree with it.
But it is the exact same statement.
Go figure…..

Jim Sutherland :-
“Osho, I concur that Charan taught we eventually will lose our individuality after the grand dissolution, but no one knows when that will occurr, as its necessary to continue having a creation for Marked souls to balance their Karma, by MEDITATION to seek the Path of returning to HIM, the Creator. If you don’t meditate, how do you plan on escaping MAYA?
That doesn’t imply there is not individual souls, nor that they never existed, or don’t presently exist, or are impermanent.”
Osho:
No – not eventually. You need to condor what He actually said – or admit that what He said was wrong (as was what Paltu said). Let me clarify what I mean:
“He (GOD) is the ONLY ONE (that exists). Always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
How can we say that something is real when it is not permanent?” – Charan Singh
He is not saying ONE DAY they will be one. He specifically uses the words
Always WAS, IS and WILL BE
He does NOT say only “WILL BE”. You are ignoring the “WAS and IS” – so you are being selective in accepting Charan Singh’s Statement.
The REASON why Charan Singh says WAS and IS as well as WILL BE is because the sikh scriptures also say the same thing. They say that you are not going to MERGE in the future “ONE DAY” but that you ALREADY are one – and just have to REALISE it. It is already the case – but you are deluded. Drop the delusion which is kept in place by false beliefs, and the truth appears. It was always there – but now it becomes clear.
I could quote lots of examples, but I will quote one
“Jo Thakar sad sada hazura, tha ko andha jani dura”
The God which is EVER PRESENT (past present future) – the BLIND MAN considers far away.
The sikh scriptures state that YOU and GOD are ONE, and it is only the EGO that makes you think they are two separate entities.
Here’s what a sikh teacher is saying that YOU ARE once you remove the false EGO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeAYuGVHOXg
If you SELECT part of a statement – you miss the point.
Jim:
“That doesn’t imply there is not individual souls, nor that they never existed, or don’t presently exist, or are impermanent.”
Osho:
If Charan Singh says and Paltu says, and the scriptures say
There is only the ONE – there is nothing else – all else is MAYA
That MEANS exactly what it says
That there is nothing (no soul) except the one.
Of course you can see there are lots of things apart from the ONE.
There are people, things, and the world all around us.
So the explanation is “This is not real – it is temporary – here today and gone tomorrow”
And anything that is temporary is defined as UNREAL.
Of course it APPEARS to be real (like the dream) – but it is not REALITY
It is MAYA (Illusion).
This is Charan Singh exact statement. Go check it if you are in doubt.
Now I DO AGREE that Charan Singh also said other things that contradict this.
And also that the traditional Radha Soami Teachings also contradict this.
This is the duality element of the teachings. Those teachings are incorrect.
Why? Because they can’t BOTH be true.
If I say “God is EVERYWHERE” and I also say “There are SOME PLACES” where God is NOT.
It is a FACT (not an opinion) that ONE of those statements are incorrect.
Something (God) cannot be EVERYWHERE and
Missing from some places
As the same time.
One of those statements has to be incorrect.
The statement that “GOD is all there is” does not leave any place for a YOU.
Because then there are TWO – You and God.
So which is it?
Are there Two or ONE?

The problem with OshoRobbins is that he doesn’t understands the difference between different levels of existence.
When I gave the free will example, he didn’t understand what I was implying. He just questioned me if I understood what I was saying. Asked if I was saying things that have no meaning but just sound cool.
Osho, if God is omniscient, can there be any free will?
You’d find a beautiful answer to this in Flora E. Woods’ book.
People have free will, but there is no free will at higher levels of existence.
Saints have their own level of existence, which is much higher than ours. That’s why Mirdad says that every word that is said is a honest lie at best(unless people are at same level of existence).
Attain the level of consciousness that Saints had(now you might misinterpret my use of “had” and say that they never attained higher state of existence as they can’t have attain something that transcends time in past), only then you’d know.

We must all not rule out, that at our Human level, and level of understanding, contradictions by even enlightened Masters can be some times userstood as lies by we who remain in Pind, or body consciousness, hightly filtered by sheaths of our Perispirit, ( soul condoms ), Astral, Causal, Mental, Etereal sheaths acting as filters dumbing down our knotted souls.
Christian Fundamentalists claim the Bible is inerrant, free of errors, God’s Words, but even there, Apostles lie, or contradict them selves!
John lied! “If I bare witness of myself, my witness is not true.” John 5:31
“I am one that bares witness of myself.” John 8:18

Let’s get to the root of the issue here.
Charan answers: (See jim’s comment above)
“There is no question of individuality at all. We all merge into one. Everything has come out of the Lord and the whole creation is nothing but his own projection. When the grand dissolution comes, There will be only one. everybody will merge back into the same source from where they have come. When there is one, there is no individuality. If we will still preserve our individuality there, then what is the point of meditation?”
So clearly Charan Singh is saying that the final destination is ONENESS. So in the end, no individuality remains as the soul merges into the ONE SOUL known as GOD.
The main issue is about HOW this happens.
Do we MERGE
Or
Are we already ONE and just REALISE it.
The sant mat teachings say that we MERGE. Charan Singh also says that we merge.
However Gurinder Singh says we just REALISE – not merge.
I maintain that we are ALREADY ONE and just REALIZE it in the process I call “Enlightenment”.
That is all enlightenment is: realisation of that which ALWAYS WAS – it is not a merging.
Now let’s add this statement to see where it leads:
“He (GOD) is the ONLY ONE (that exists). Always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
How can we say that something is real when it is not permanent?” – Charan Singh
If God is the ONLY ONE – then who are all the individual souls?
Clearly we cannot be real and our individuality is an illusion.
There cannot be a merging for this reason.
For merging to happen – the souls must be separate.
However, the statement says God always IS and WAS the ONLY ONE.
The ONLY way this statement can be true is:-
There is no individuality. Now even now. The individuality is an illusion.
Once this illusion disappears (enlightenment) then the ONENESS that always was becomes apparent.
You don’t attain oneness – you discover it.
Why is this distinction so important?
Because if you attain – then there is a separate YOU (now) who meditates and then finally arrives (one day).
This is MAYA (illusion) because it involves TIME and SPACE.
TIME because you arrive ONE DAY (TIME) and
SPACE because you arrive and merge so there must be movement.
So it is not that I don’t understand what Goku or Jim is saying
Or that I don’t understand the RSSB teachings.
I understand them very well. I was reading the RSSB books at age 10.
I am just saying they cannot be correct. It is impossible for the reasons I have already outlined.
Regarding the issue of FREE WILL that Goku raises:
From the point of view of ONENESS – there is no free will
Because nothing happens. No “will” is possible.
Even to say there is no free will is silly. There is nothing.
And from the level of the individual there is free will simply because we have an ego and we feel we are doing something. So we appear to be free.
In fact we are doing nothing. Because there is nothing to be done.

If Osho reaizes he is already God, and there is nothing more to do, …..i.e. No merging needed, then why doesn’t God cure sickness, death, pain, wars, animal sacrifice, and all the problems of the world?
Same reason none of us do, …….because we ain’t God.
According to Osho’s scenero, if all of us in creation are being God already, right where we are, individually, that is not actually real individuality, then, we can all look forward to remaining God as we are, or continue to reincarnate or transmigrate back and forth in to the Wheel of 8,400,000 possible species for eternity, that has no end, because it never had a beginning, and we aren’t really here, because we are impermanent. Too bad we have to struggle do hard at life to remain impermanite. .
Any one else buy the Philosophy here, other than Osho?
If there are any shy Gurinder initiates lurking here, is this really Gurinfer’s Theology, that we are all already ahod, all we need to fo is REALIZE it, so we can wuit trying to merge by meditating? Last I heard from ant Gurinderites, he still ask Initistes to meditate. If no ergi g is needed, or hsppens, from body to ANY other non e isting zplane, thsn why is he still asking followers at RSSB and Sat Sangs to meditate?
Is there a Sant Mat Conspiracy happening, or is Osho Robbins imagining things that are not happening in RSSB?

Jim writes:
“If Osho reaizes he is already God, and there is nothing more to do, …..i.e. No merging needed, then why doesn’t God cure sickness, death, pain, wars, animal sacrifice, and all the problems of the world?
Same reason none of us do, …….because we ain’t God.”
Osho:
Because God doesn’t DO anything. If He did – He would already have done all you mentioned. God is not a person.
Also – You seriously think that God can cure sickness, death, pain, wars etc?
Those will always exist – it is part of duality.
You think of God in terms of duality and power.
So we are talking about a different God. My God is lazy. He does nothing all day and rests at night and has weekends off.
Just kidding – but you get my point. My God has no attributes and there is no right or wrong and good and bad.
That is all duality fiction and is mind related.
If your Guru is that kind of God, how come he has not done all you say?

Jim:
“According to Osho’s scenero, if all of us in creation are being God already, right where we are, individually, that is not actually real individuality, then, …….”
No, you mis-understand. There is no “ALL” There is only ONE.
GOD is already – YOU and I are not.
I did not say “WE are all GODS”. I am saying GOD is all there is.
You don’t MERGE in him – You already are NOT and GOD IS.
Kabir says :-
“When I was – YOU (GOD) was not ((i.e. I could not FIND you)
Now – YOU (GOD) ARE (meaning I have realized the ONE) and I am NOT” – Kabir
(the ego, the “I”, the individuality) has disappeared.
How can WE be Gods? When I have said there is no individuality.
Gurinder DOES SAY that we are already ONE and just have to REALIZE it.
He advocates meditation as the means to REALIZE it.
That is why he tells the followers to meditate.
He also says – “It is not in your hands” and “You cannot do it”
There is no conspiracy and I am not imagining.
I am not the only one who has observed the changes.
Gurinder is simply saying that you have to REALIZE – not go anywhere or merge.
Which is in line with what I stated.

As an ‘exer’, after diligently following this path as a Charan initiate I feel free at last.
I love my individuality. I love my ego. I like being separate from this so called God (I hate this “God” word). I don’t want to merge as a little drop into this ocean. I would prefer to carry on experiencing and enjoying life as an individual being. I’d like to be born again on different planets, in different universes and enjoy just being alive and sentient.
Why bother meditating and striving to merge back into something that is just a “God” word and a myth that has been perpetuated over and over since time began. So theres a creator, so what, who cares…?
After all, “Charan taught we eventually will lose our individuality after the grand dissolution” so who gives a sh*t.

Jen makes an interesting point:-
She says “I would prefer to carry on experiencing and enjoying life as an individual being. I’d like to be born again on different planets, in different universes and enjoy just being alive and sentient.”
Everything is a perspective and a belief.
If I say “You will disappear after you die and merge into the ONE”
One person may say “That is good – I WANT to disappear”
However, another may say “I don’t want to disappear. I want to be re-born”
So it could easily happen the other way around.
I mean that you will disappear into nothing – UNLESS you meditate.
Then you will meditate to remain individual and to still exist after death.
Which is the reward and which is the punishment?
Jim has already stated that he too does not want to disappear.
He wants to remain an individual.
Then WHY meditate? Because in the end at Alakh – the teachings say he will merge and disappear.
Why meditate to work towards that?
If you don’t want to disappear?
Meditate = disappear (merge)
Don’t meditate = remain individual
Which do you choose?

“Meditate = disappear (merge)
Don’t meditate = remain individual”
Yes, Osho this is true. Now I know why I don’t like meditating!
I am still vegetarian, don’t drink alcohol, don’t take mind altering drugs and I live a moral life – I think this is the most important, being kind, compassionate, true to self, living with integrity because in this way we are creating our future self.
I was such a shy, scared young female so when I heard about a living Master of course I needed that – at that time. Now I see that He was simply an example and I am grateful. Gratitude is an important practice.
Now that I am more confident in myself, the next fear which is trying to take over is the fear of death. This is why older satsangis cling to the path and the Master because they want to be saved – and thats okay – to each their own.
I’m into Sovereignty now and hopefully when I pass over it will be into a more positive, constructive life or maybe just an adventure into the other dimensions.
I wonder about the bulldozer effect and hope I can avoid it – I imagine myself blasting out of here as a fiery comet. What we believe – we create…

Osho says: “Meditate = disappear (merge)
Don’t meditate = remain individual
Which do you choose?”
Jim chooses Meditation, but not far enough to merge and disappear. Jim chooses to attempt Sat Nam immersion only, where Charan said souls entering there still recognise each other. That is Sach Khand, which is obviously much less dense than Lower realms, and could very well exist on other planets than earth, where killing, war, eating, drinking, is not required to keep these physical bodies alive.
Osho chooses Don’t Meditate, so he will remain the excentric individual he is, while imagining he is God, still needing to work, suffer, kill, eat, sleep, and remsin a slave to mind, and physical body senses.
No Philosophy needs to be understood here. Its pure Fact, backed by Scripture and testimony from Swamiji, Rai Salig Ram, and most of the Soami Bagh Gurus, Jamail, Sawan, and Charan Singh. And, Kirpal and his Kirpalis.
Osho, the only Sant Mat guru PUBLICALLY espousing Advaita Sant Mat philosophy in English, is Ishwar Puri, who is publically teaching that none of us ever left Sach Khand, and we are all still there! He has a less aggressive twist than you do, tho, as he recommends 5 minutes meditation every morning visualizing flowers and visualizing orange juice filling up his body.
He has more Youtube talks on the Internet than you do, so must have mote followers as well.

Osho, you can’t help but do wordplay, huh?
When a teacher is teaching his students, it’s okay to use the word “merge”, because he/she has to explain it to their students on their level.
“””””Because if you attain – then there is a separate YOU (now) who meditates and then finally arrives (one day).
This is MAYA (illusion) because it involves TIME and SPACE.
TIME because you arrive ONE DAY (TIME) and
SPACE because you arrive and merge so there must be movement.”””””
Fool, according to people on a lower level of existence, you attain. But, on higher level of existence, you don’t.
You haven’t achieved higher level of existence. Just by understanding, you can’t attain. Yes, it’s “attain” for you, intelligence has nothing to do with your level of existence.
When you die, you’d leave all your understanding behind. And then you’d suffer again and again for the same understanding, never changing a thing. After all, awareness never dies.
Jen, have you never experienced inner joy, tranquility and peace? Have you never experience any awakening to higher state of awareness? I’m not talking about using psychedelics, they don’t raise awareness.
If you had experienced an higher level of existence, or atleast life in a higher physical realm(physical realms would be universes in the same space), you’d not want to give them up for hundreds of different births in this world.
Your mind has imagined how it would be, on the basis of your everyday experience, and probably termed the merging and losing identity to be something like Sleeping.
On other note, I’ve still not attained the age required for initiation.

To Osho:
https://www.amazon.com/Fool-Who-Thought-Was-God-ebook/dp/B01L0MKIM6

I (osho) wrote:
“Everything is a perspective and a belief.
If I say “You will disappear after you die and merge into the ONE”
One person may say “That is good – I WANT to disappear”
However, another may say “I don’t want to disappear. I want to be re-born”
So it could easily happen the other way around.
I mean that you will disappear into nothing – UNLESS you meditate.
Then you will meditate to remain individual and to still exist after death.
Which is the reward and which is the punishment?”
The point I was making was this:
You are creating the whole MEANING of what your life is all about
And it is all nonsense.
So just imagine for a moment……
SCENARIO 1
After death – there is deep sleep = “Nothingness” if you will.
That’s it – you become nothing – you disappear into the abyss.
Then you have a choice.
If you do XXXXXX then and only then you will have LIFE instead of deep sleep.
Where XXXXXX is “meditate” or “pray” or “accept Mohammad” or “surrender”
So in this scenario, DEEP SLEEP (or nothingness) is considered the BAD THING because you want to continue to exist.
In order to continue to have life – you have to work hard or DO SOMETHING
If you succeed – you get another life. Whippee – another life. Jump for joy.
If you fail to meditate properly or pray or whatever, then I am afraid it’s game over for you, pal. Sorry – but rules are rules – you failed – now you pay by disappearing into a black hole. Bye. Better luck next time (oh yes – there is no next time –you should have tried harder, fool).
So – in that scenario – you will spend your life being busy doing the meditation or whatever, hoping you succeed.
Now let’s change the scenario to Scenario no 2:
SCENARIO 2
After death – you will re-incarnate into the 8.4 Million species of life. Well actually 9.5 Million, because another 1.1 Million new species have appeared since the last count.
If you don’t want all the pain and suffering, then my friend, you are going to have to go to some powerful guru and meditate – only then can you avoid the 8.4 Million and become the ONE.
You could cleverly hang around in Sat Lok but avoid Anami every time he comes around, merging all the souls into Himself.
However, you are going to have to be really good at avoiding because He is all knowing and all powerful. So good luck with that one.
In either scenario – you are busy preparing for the “afterlife”
You are trying to attain – to succeed at reaching your given outcome.
So while you are doing this – trying to get there; it means that YOU ARE NOT THERE YET – so you are UNHAPPY because you have a GOAL and you have not attained it yet.
You will only be happy ONCE you attain.
So sant mat followers will only be happy once they know their place in Sach Khand is secured.
Hence all the people who go to the microphone to ask for GRACE.
They are asking for their place in Sat Lok to be secured.
Why? Because that is happiness for them.
Now, you ready for the punch line?
No? not yet? You want to postpone a while longer?
You want to wait for God or Godot a while longer?
You can watch the two vagabonds while you wait
It’s an abridged version of day 1 – so you don’t waste too much time waiting
https://youtu.be/V-jRe8xEpV8

(at 7:25 this is the dialogue)
Let’s wait to see what He says.
Who?
Godot
Ah yes
I am curious to see what He has to offer; Then we take it or leave it
What exactly did we ask him for?
Were you not there?
I can’t have been listening
Oh, nothing very definite
A kind of prayer?
Precisely
A vague supplication
Exactly
And what did He reply?
That He’d see
That He couldn’t promise anything?
That He would have to think it over
In the quiet of his home
Consult his family and friends and bank account…
And WE…..?
I beg your padon
I said “and WE…”
I don’t understand
And where do we come in?
COME IN? on our HAND AND KNEES
As bad as that?
You will worship Him to assert his prerogatives
We’ve no rights anymore?
Ha – you make me laugh – if it wasn’t prohibited
We lost out rights?
We got rid of them …..
Just the above part from another version of the play
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMz1-Kgz_DI
at 1:17: it’s the dream – equiv to getting to Sach khand… the reward
Let’s go
Where?
Perhaps we’ll sleep tonight in his…. All snug and dry
Our bellies full, in the hay
That’s worth waiting for… no?
Not all night
It’s still day….
Okay – so now are you ready?
Had enough of the postponement?
Yes?
Okay – here goes…….
Scenario 1 or 2 – both are based on:-
The assumption that there is a certain outcome you are seeking. (to BE or not to be)
If you get there – it’s good if you don’t it’s bad
I am saying: it’s all made up. It’s fiction.
It is in your head. But……
You think it is REAL.
It’s not.
But once you buy into it – you’ve given up your rights (from the play)
The good or bad
Only exists if you seek or have a goal.
No goal- no seeking – and the GOOD or BAD also disappears.
Once the good and bad is gone…….
Now what will you do?
You no longer seek or have a goal…..
How can you meditate now? You have no goal.
You don’t want to get to Sach Khand, so why meditate?
The meditation only happens if NOW is not enough for you
You live in the future – for the goal of arriving.
You sacrifice the NOW for the future.
Why? Because you seek.
No seeking… no goals… then there is only the NOW.
The good or bad only exists if you have a goal.
GOD does not have a good and a bad because he has no goals
He just witnesses and watches what we idiots are doing and has a good laugh.
(by the way – I am joking – there is no God – there is only nothing)
Once you see clearly that all you have is beliefs…
They will drop off…. And you are free from the nonsense you created.

Goku:
Osho, you can’t help but do wordplay, huh?
When a teacher is teaching his students, it’s okay to use the word “merge”, because he/she has to explain it to their students on their level.
Osho:
No, it is not okay. That is what happens when the “blind lead the blind”
Then there is no hope of true understanding – ever.
It is fundamental that merging is impossible as it is a process and all processes happen in time and space.
If there was a merging – it would not be real because everything in time and space is unreal (changeable).
All that changes is unreal. Merging means change so is unreal.
If you or Jim or anyone doubts that “all that changes is unreal” then ask Gurinder at his next Q&A.
Charan Singh has already made his position clear:
“How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent-here today and gone tomorrow?” – Charan Singh
Everything within time and space is here today and gone tomorrow; therefore unreal.
Any movement (merging) is in time and space so unreal.
What does unreal mean?
It means that it is not ultimate truth – and only ultimate truth matters – not all the concepts you create in your mind.
All these ideas of Sat Lok and Anami and merging or avoiding the merging are all concepts of the mind.
WHY is it so important not to use the word Merging?
Because this confirms that the illusory state (maya) is real. And that you have to DO something to get out of it.
If you have illusory concepts and you are constantly confirming them – you will remain in the illusory state.
That is why sat mat says “the company” of the master is so important. But it is only important if the master is free. If he is also deluded – his company cannot free you, because he will just confirm that you are stuck and deluded.

Jim wrote
“Osho chooses Don’t Meditate, so he will remain the excentric individual he is, while imagining he is God, still needing to work, suffer, kill, eat, sleep…”
Osho:
There is no God. God is a made up concept and exists only in our minds. He is not a real entity.
So – I don’t claim to be God – In fact all I claim is nothing. How can the non-existent claim to be God – or indeed anything?
I am saying there is no me
This is all illusion. Yes – it appears to be real.
It IS real in the sense that it is NOW. Just as a dream is real WHILE it is happening. But ultimately it is not real, as you find out when you wake up.
In the dream you may be in India, with Gurinder at Beas
Then you wake up and you”re just lying in your bed.
So the dream was unreal – even though it felt totally real in the dream state.
In exactly the same way – once this dream is over and the physical body dies – how then can you say this is real?
Nothing of this matters now. Nothing goes with you from this dream state to wherever you think you go.
So this is unreal. I am going further and saying the “SOUL” is also unreal.
Anything that is separate from the ONE is unreal.
If Jim’s soul can hang out in Sat Lok without Anami finding him, then obviously Anami is not the ONE – He must be some imposter because there are two
Anami Purush and Jim.
Of course, all this is ludicrous anyway, as there cannot possibly be a character up there (or wherever it is) called Anami.
Just like me, He too does not exist.
The ONE I am talking about has zero attributes. The scriptures also speak of him. They say “nothing can be said” That’s why he is called Anami. No names can be used to describe him – because he is emptiness and nothingness – or the absence of all attributes.
basically, he ain’t naffin’ you can put your finger on.
In zen is says “The master is a finger pointing to the moon”
but really it’s much worse because the moon he is pointing to can’t be seen – it is nothing.
Sar Bachan is basically a romanticised version of the spiritual journey. If you just use a tiny bit of logic, it soon becomes obvious that it is just a work of fiction.
How can there possibly be people, buildings and so on – in the region of pure spirituality. and how can you divide the ONE SACH KHAND into three sub-sections?
One means ONE – it cannot be sub-divided into three
it is like dividing nothing into three nothings.
Sar Bachan’s description of Sat lok is a metaphor – not literal.

Osho has declared, “The is no God. God is made up of a concept, and only exists in our mind.”
Osho is a formable debater, but also primarily, an unknown, “Neo-Advaita” Atheist parroting the Ramana types that have come on the scene quite recently. But if there is no God, why does any one wrote from Scriptures, or ” Holy Writings?” Surely, there must have been a few Scriptues expressing a different concept of God than Osho has decided is nothing more than mind illusions.
Here are a few to consider, in rebuttal to Osho’s declaration of there being no God.
GOD??
IF we make a careful and unbiased study of the Sacred Books of the world we discover that the
concept of God among the ancient Chinese was similar in many respects to that of the Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians. The God of the ancient Egyp­tians is not opposed to the Christian’s idea of the Great First Cause. One is astounded at the numerous points of agree­ment.
From the standpoint of the absolute, or in the absolute sense, God is beyond what is known and manifested, being unsearchable, changeless, perfect, neither seen nor heard, and eternally unconditioned and undivided. God is beginningless and endless, without form and devoid of passions; He, or rather It, is too great to be fully defined by any combination of words, and for that reason is self-described.
All the Sacred Books declare that God is One; the First and the Last; from which nothing can be excluded, and to which nothing can be added.
God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, our Father and our Mother. God as Mother is the Primal Substance and the Seed of all things-yes, existence itself.
God is Breath of Breath, Spirit, Primeval Fire, Creator or Generator; and being the one great Universal, Supreme Eternally creation of all differentiation, which never changes its nature and is as unmoved as a waveless ocean, eternally uncondi­tioned and undivided.”
-RAJA YOGA PHILOSOPHY,
Shrimat Shankaracharya’s
Crest Jewel o f 1.llisdoyn, p. 136.
Changeless Soul, all things are threaded on God like pearls on a string. The universe is spread in God’s vast Form; and the Infinite One is an Ocean into which all things flow-the Supreme Treasure House.
God is Lord of Heaven; and, being omniscient (all­ knowledge) Mind, of necessity, is of God’s very Essence. This Mind is One Mind, since God is One; the All-Conserv­ing Mind, the Creative Mind, Mind of Mind.
God is not only Life, but Life of Life, Light, Truth, Love and Good.
We cannot conceive of a universe without a Law to gov­ern it; and this Law is the Good Law, the Royal Law, the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Law of Love, the Law of the Spirit of Life-an Originating and All-comprehending, Eternal Principle.
There is no variableness in God since He is eternal, im­mortal and infinite; nevertheless He is that from which every transformation arises.
The following is a digest, of a few ex­cerpts from various Sacred Books which describe the Attributes of God, yet in different wording.
“And also the Strength of Israel will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent.”
-I SAMUEL 15:29.
“Forever, 0 Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.
“Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast
established the earth, and it abideth.
“They continue this day according to thine ordinances:
for all are thy servants.”
-PSALMS 119:89-91.
“The Tao, considered as unchanging, has no name.”
-THE TEXTS OF TAOISM,
The Tao Teh King, Part I, p. 74.
“Immovable [is] God alone, and rightly [He] alone; for He Himself is in Himself, and by Himself, and round Himself, completely full and perfect.
“God, then, hath [ever] been unchanging, and ever, in like fashion, with Himself bath the Eternity consisted,­having within itself Cosmos ingenerate, which we correctly call [God] Sensible.
“Of that [transcendent] Deity this Image bath been made,-Cosmos, the imitator of Eternity.”
-THRICE-GREATEST HERMES,
The Perfect Sermon, Vol. II, p. 368.
“We do not recognize (Brahma as any thing percept­ible); therefore we do not know how to teach him (his nature to a disciple). It is even different from what is known (from the manifested universe; if you then say, it must be the unmanifested universe, no) it is also beyond what is not known (to the senses, it is beyond the unmanifested universe).”
-THE KENA OR TALAVAKARA UPANISHAD OF THE SAMA VEDA, pp. 668-9.
“I am the Lord, I change not.”
-MALACHI 3:6.
“Was that which was produced before Heaven and Earth a thing? That which made things and gave to each its char­acter was not itself a thing.”
-THE TEXTS OF TAOISM,
The Writings o f Kwang-Tze, Part II, p. 72.
“And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning halt laid the foun­dation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
“They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
“And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall
not fail.” -HEBREWS 1:10-12.
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” -ISAIAH 55:8, 9.
“Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.” -PSALMS 145:3.
“0 Lord that dwellest eternally, whose are the highest heavens, whose chambers are in the air, whose throne is beyond imagination, whose glory inconceivable;
Hear the voice of thy servant, give ear to thy creature’s petition, and attend to my words!”
-THE APOCRYPHA AND PSEUDEPIGRAPHA OF THE OLD TESTAMENT,
IV EZRA 8:20, 21, 24.
Vol. II, pp. 594-5.
“No man hath seen God at any time.”
-I JOHN 4:12.
‘The Tao cannot be heard; what can be heard is not It. The Tao cannot be seen; what can be seen is not It. The Tao cannot be expressed in words; what can be expressed in words is not It. Do we know the Formless which gives form to form? In the same way the Tao does not admit of
being named.’ ”
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, VOL. XL.
The Texts of Taoism.
The Writings o f Kwang-Tze, Part II, p. 69.
“Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and back­ward, but I cannot perceive him:
“On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I can­not see him.” -JOB 23:8, 9.
“The King of kings, and Lord of lords;
“`Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.” -I TIMOTHY 6:15, 16.
“Not in the sight abides his form, none beholds him by the eye. Those who know him dwelling in the heart Unsearchable “Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?
“It is as high as heaven
“The measure thereof is larger broader than the sea.”
than the earth, and
-JoB 11:7-9.
(ether of the heart) by the heart (pure intellect) and mind, become immortal.”
-,SWETASWATARA UPANISHAD, p. 396.
“But verily thou art not able to behold Me with these throe eyes; the divine eye I give unto thee.”
-THE Bhagavad-Gita, p. 113.
” `The Perfect Tao is very recondite, and by nothing else but Itself can it be described. Since ye wish to hear about it, ye cannot do so by the hearing of the ear:-that which eludes both the ears and eyes is the True Tao; what can be heard and seen perishes, and only this survives. There is (much) that you have not yet learned, and especially you have not acquired this! Till you have learned what the ears do not hear, how can the Tao be spoken about at all?”‘
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, Vol. XL.
The Texts o f Taoism. Yu Shu King,
or the Classic o f the Pivot o f Jade, Part II, p. 266.
“As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.” -PSALMS 18:30.
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.”
-PSALMS 90:2.
“Our God is a living God.
“His power fills the universe. He was before the world saw light. He will be when the world exists no more. He formed thee; with His Spirit thou breathest.
“Lao the Master said, The Great Tao has no bodily form, but It produced and nourishes heaven and earth. The Great Tao has no passions’ , but It causes the sun and moon to revolve as they do.
“The Great Tao has no name, but It effects the growth and maintenance of all things.
“I do not know its name, but I make an effort, and call It the Tao.”
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, Vol. XL.
The Texts o f Taoism.
Khing Kang King, or the Classic o f Purity, Part II, p. 249.
“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: bath he said, and shall he not do it? or bath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”
-NUMBERS 23:19.
“And the Father himself, which bath sent me, bath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”
“One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
-EPHESIANS 4:6.
“Know that the Lord he is God; there is none else be­side him.”
-DEUTERONOMY 4:35.
“There is but one Brahma which is Truth’s self. It is from ignorance of that One that god-heads have been con­ceived to be diverse.”
-MAHABHARATA,
Udyoga Parva, Vol. III, p. 145.
“”Passions’, that is, feelings, affections, as in the first of the thirty-nine Articles,”
F. 2s(1.
His bow is of fire. His arrows are of flame.”
-THE TALMUD.
Without Form Devoid of Passions Per feet, if-described beginningless ” `There is no end or beginning to the Tao.’ ”
The Texts o f Taoism,
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, Vol. XXXIX.
The Writings of Kwang-Tze, Part I, p. 382.
-JOHN 5:37.
“The Atman, which is the substratum of the ego in man, is one: and therefore different from the physical bodies which on the other hand are many. How can this body then be the Atman?”
-RAJA YOGA PHILOSOPHY, Shrimat Shankaracharya’s Aprokshanubhuti, p. 8.
“As the sun, manifesting all parts of space, above, be­tween, and below, shines resplendent, so over-rules the all­glorious adorable God, one alone, all that exists in likeness with its cause.”
-~WETASWATARA UPANISHAD, pp. 397-8.
“The Oneness being Source and Root of all, is in all things as Root and Source. `’Without [this] Source is naught; whereas the Source [Itself] is from naught but Itself.”
-THRICE-GREATEST HERMES,
Corpus Hermeticum IV (V),
The Cup or Monad, Vol. II, p. 90.
“When he perceiveth the diversified existence of beings as rooted in One, and spreading forth from it, then he reacheth the eternal.”
-THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, p. 139.
“Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
-ISAIAH 44:6.
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
“In the essence of Suchness (God), there is neither any­thing which has to be excluded, nor anything which has to be added.”
-THE AWAKENING OF FAITH, p. 57.
“The Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” -REVELATION 19:16.
“I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.”
-GENESIS 17:1.
“Holy art Thou, more powerful than all power. Holy art Thou, transcending all pre-eminence.”
-THRICE-GREATEST HERMES,
Poemandres, the Shepherd o f Men, Vol. II, p. 19.
“The energy of God is Power that naught can e’er sur­pass, a Power with which no one can make comparison of any human thing at all, or any thing divine.”
-THRICE-GREATEST HERMES,
Mind Unto Hermes, Vol. II, p. 178.
“Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
“If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
“If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
“Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.”
-PSALMS 139:7-10.
Omni
The First and the Last
“That they should seek the Lord, if happily they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.”
-ACTS 17:27.
-REVELATION 1:8.
Nothing 11. “I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for Excluded, Nothing Added ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it.” -ECCLESIASTES 3:4.
“May the one God, who, like the spider, through his own nature, encases himself with many threads, which are produced by the first (cause, Pradhana, nature), grant us identity with Brahma,­
“The one God, who is concealed in all beings, who per­vades all, who is the inner soul of all beings, the ruler of all actions, who dwells in all beings, the witness, who is mere thinking, and without qualities.”
-SwETASWATARA UPANISHAD, p. 401.
“Whoever knows the God who is without commence­ment, without end, who within this impervious (world) is the creator of the universe, who is of an infinite form, the one penetrates of the universe, becomes liberated from all bonds.”
-SWETAS`WATARA UPANISHAD, p. 399.
Omniscient 14. “In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”
-COLOSSIANS 2:3.
“Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.”
-MATTHEW 10:26.
“0 Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
“Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
“Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.”
-PSALMS 139:1, 2, 6.
“The Master said, `The Tao does not exhaust itself in what is greatest, nor is it ever absent from what is least; and therefore it is to be found complete and diffused in all things. How wide is its universal comprehension! How deep is its unfathomableness! The embodiment of its attri­
butes in benevolence and righteousness is but a small result of its spirit-like (working); but it is only the perfect man who can determine this. The perfect man has (the charge of) the world;-is not the charge great?”‘
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, `7Ol. XXXIX,
The Texts of Taoism.
The Writings o f Kwang-Tze, Part I, p. 342.
“So there is nothing that cannot be perceived by it, [that is, the world of relativity is submerged in the oneness of Suchness] (God). Thence we assign to Suchness this quality, the universal illumination of the universe.”
-ACVAGHOSHA’S AWAKENING OF FAITH, p. 97.
“Helping and guarding, guarding behind and guarding in front, Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, proves an and un­ceivable spy and watcher for the man to whom he comes to help with all the strength of his soul, he of the ten thousand spies, the powerful, all-knowing, undeceivable god.”
“But I think thus in my heart:
” `Should the evil thoughts of the earthly man be a hun­dred times worse, they would not rise so high as the good thoughts of the heavenly Mithra;
. ” `Should the heavenly wisdom in the earthly man be a hundred times greater, it would not rise so high as the heavenly wisdom in the heavenly Mithra.”‘
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, Vol. XXIII,
The Zend-Avesta.
The Yasts and SiYOZahs, Part II, pp. 131 and 146-7.
“Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”
-MATTHEW 6:9.
“Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, 0 Lord,
Mother
Trinity
art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.” -ISAIAH 63:16.
“This is the Monad which is incomprehensible or un­knowable; this it is which has no Seal (or Mark), in which are all Seals; which is blessed for ever and ever. This is the eternal Father; this the ineffable, unthinkable, incompre­hensible, untranscendible Father; this it is in which the All become joyous.”
-FRAGMENTS OF A FAITH FORGOTTEN) Codex Brucianus, pp. 549, 550.
“I the Father of this universe, the Mother, the Sup­porter, the Grandsire, the Holy One to be known, the Word of Power.”
-THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, p. 98.
“Thus it is that the Tao produces (all things), nourishes them, brings them to their full growth, nurses them, com­pletes them, matures them, maintains them, and overspreads them.”
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, Vol. XXXIX, The Texts o f Taoism.
The Tao Teh King, Part I, p. 94.
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
-I JOHN 5:7.
“The Tao produced One; One produced Two; Two pro­duced Three; Three produced All things.”
-THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE EAST, Vol. XXXIX.
The Texts of Taoism.
The Tao Te1a King, Part I, p. 85.
” `Hail, My brethren and My children. Let there be with you the peace of My Father, which is thine, which I received from My Father, so that I might make it to remain with you for all time.’ And He breathed on their faces and said, `Receive ye the Holy Spirit.’ ”
-COPTIC APOCRYPHA,
The Book o f the Resurrection o f Jesus Christ,
By Bartholomew the Apostle, p. 205.
“They are even father, mother and child; mind is even the father, speech the mother, and life the child.” -BRIHAD ARANYAKA UPANISHAD, p. 222.
“The Mahayana has a triple significance. “The first is the greatness of quintessence. “The second is the greatness of attributes. “The third is the greatness of activity.”
-AgVAGHOSHA’S AWAKENING OF FAITH, pp. 53-4.
“The Mind of the Father uttered [the Word] that all should be divided [or cut] into three. His Will nodded assent, and at once all things were so divided.
“He who governs all things with the Mind of the eternal.
“In every cosmos there shineth [or is manifested] a Triad, of which a Monad is source.
“All things are served in the Gulphs of the Triad. “From this Triad the Father mixed every spirit.
“Arming both mind and soul with triple Might.” -ECHOES FROM THE GNOSIS,
The ChaldrPan Oracles, Vol. VIII, pp. 51-54.
Seed of All Things
“From Him is the seed of all things, and it is He that upholds the Earth with all her mobile and immobile creatures.”
-MAHABHARATA,
Canti Parva, Vol. VIII, p. 883.
“And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bear­ing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.”
-GENESIS 1:29.
“For he will finish the work, and cut it short in right­eousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
“And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.”
-ROMANS 9:28, 29.
(“Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minis­ter bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness; )
“Being enriched in everything to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.”
-II CORINTHIANS 9:10, 11.
“The Atman is permanent, eternal and therefore exis­tence itself.”
-RAJA YOGA PHILOSOPHY,
Shrimat Shankaracharya’s Aprokshanubhuti, p. 6.
“God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
“Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things.”
“All is the effect of all, one universal Essence.”
-BRIHAD ARANYAKA UPANISHAD, p. 208.
“This soul is Brahma, and stands as the soul and sub­stance of the universe.”
-RAJA YOGA PHILOSOPHY,
Shrimat Shankaracharya’s AProkshanubhuti, p. 13.
“I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
“My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and
my revenue than choice silver.
“I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the
paths of judgment:
“That I may cause those that love me to inherit sub­
stance; and I will fill their treasures.”
-PROVERBS 8:12, 19-21.
22-23.
“0 Primal Origin of my origination; Thou Primal Primal Substance of my substance; First Breath of breath, the substance breath that is in me.” Breath of
-ECHOES FROM THE GNOSIS, Breath
A Mithriac Ritual, Vol. VI, Pp. 18, 19.
“The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones.
“Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
“And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
“Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, pro­phesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord
Universal Essence
Substance Existence Itself
-ACTS 17:24, 25.
God; Come from the four winds, 0 breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
“So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great army.”
-EZEKIEL 37:1, 5, 6, 9, 10.
“But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; … and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, bast thou not glorified.”
-DANIEL 5:23.
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must wor­ship him in spirit and in truth.”
“Of this same Spirit, of which I have already spoken many times, all things have need; for that it raises up all things, each in its own degree, and makes them live, and gives them nourishment.”
-THRICE-GREATEST HERMES,
Cyril o f Alexandria,
Fragment XVIIZ, p. 259.
“The Lord, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.”
-ISAIAH 31:9.
“But who may abide the day of his coming~ and who shall stand when he appeareth% for he is like refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ sope.”
-MALACHI 3:2.
“The Third Utterance (Logos)
“Hear me, give ear to me – … Creator of the Light; 0 Holder of the Keys; Inbreather of the Fire; Fire-hearted
One, whose Breath gives Light; … 0 Lord of Light, whose Body is of Fire.”
“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
“I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.”
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.”
“For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that mak­eth the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high place of the earth, The Lord, The God of hosts, is his name.”
-AMOS 4:13.
“Indeed, I have no hope that the Creator of the whole o Greatness, the Father and the Lord of all the things (tha are), could ever have one name. He who cannot b named, or rather He who can be called by every name.
“For He, indeed, is One and All.
“He, then, alone, yet all-complete in the fertility c either sex, ever with child of His own Will, doth ever brie to birth whatever He bath willed to procreate.
“His Will is the All-goodness, which also is the Goon ness of all things, born from the nature of His ova Divinity.”
-THRICE-GREATEST HERMES,
The Perfect SeYynon, Vol. II, p. 344.
-ECHOES FROM THE GNOSIS,
A Mithriac Ritual, Vol. VI, p. 25.
-JOHN 1:3.
-ISAIAH 45:12.
Spirit
-JOHN 4:24.
-COLOSSIANS 1:16.
Fire
Generator
“His being is conceiving of all things and making (them). He ever makes all things, in heaven, in air, in earth, in deep, in all of cosmos, in every part that is and that is not of everything. For there is naught in all the world that is not He.”
-THRICE-GREATEST HERMES,
Corpus Hermeticum V. (VI.) Though Unmani f est God is Most Manifest.
Vol. II, p. 104.
“l am the Generator of all; all evolves from Me.” -THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, P. 104.
bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.” -DEUTERONOMY 28:12.
“He hath made the earth by his power, he hath estab­lished the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
“When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.”
-JEREMIAH 10:12, 13.
Threaded on
“There is naught whatsoever higher than I…. All this
“Just as the rivers of all lands, God Like Pearls on a String is threaded on Me, as rows of pearls on a string.”
Into the ocean find their way,
May gods and men from every world
-THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, p. 82.
Universe Spread
“First of the Gods, most ancient Man Thou art,
Approach and find their way to thee.”
-BUDDHISM IN TRANSLATIONS,
in God’s Form
Supreme receptacle of all that lives;
Knower and known, the dwelling-place on high;
In Thy vast Form the universe is spread.
Jataka, p. 31.
“To us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him.”
Supreme Treasure-House
“In power boundless, measureless in strength, Thou holdest all: then Thou Thyself art All.” -THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, pp. 122-3.
“Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord bath wrought this?
“In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”
-JOB 12:9, 10.
“Lofty, beyond all thought, unperishing,
Thou treasure-house supreme, all-immanent.” -THE BHAGAVAD-GITA, p. 116.
“The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to
-CORINTHIANS 8:6.
“All this universe has the (Supreme) Deity for its life. Univer. That Deity is Truth. He is the Universal Soul….
“That particle which is the Soul of all this is Truth; it is the Universal Soul.”
-CHHANDOGYA UPANISHAD, pp. 593, 595.
“God is as a soul and the world as a body.” -MASNAVI I MA’NAVI, p. 29.
“The Supreme Soul hath another name, viz, Pure Knowledge.”
-MaHABHARATA,
Udyoga Parva, Vol. III, p. 162.
Supren
Lord of
GOD??

Jim,
I can say there is no God. I can say there is only the ONE, or I can call it nothing. Or I could say that GOD is all there is and nothing else exists.
It doesn’t matter which words I use – it is not about the words.
Words are play things.
The issue is that the word God means different things to different people.
The question can be answered many ways.
When the Buddha was asked – he remained silent.
When I say God does not exist, i am talking about the God that I make fun of. The God who has attributes: The Personal God. Like a being – like Anami.
All knowing, all powerful, all love, A good God.
No such being exists.
here is krishnamurti on the question “Is there a God – give me a straight answer”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYjYL448-yY

The RSSB guru travels in private airplanes and in high end cars with high level security, his son is the CEO of a multimillion dollar company, his wife has million dollar stocks to her name, his relatives are rich billionaires. It’s totally fine if you’re a businessman and doing all this with your “earned” money but it doesn’t look so good when you are operating a spiritual organization that preaches that you should not fixate on acquiring materialistic things in life and that main focus of life should be meditating and realizing god. All the donations that are being made by the people thinking it’s going to be used by their master for some greater good is sadly just used for land hoarding all across India in almost every single city to build satsang centres on vast acres of expensive land. For what ? To open them up for 2 hours once a week on Sunday to repeat the same satsang over and over again. It’s so sad to see people instead of helping each other are investing so much of their time and resources into organizations and “babas” like
this especially in a country like India where so many die due to hunger and poverty everyday. They claim that everyone is equal in eye of babaji yet they have they have different boarding houses for foreigners, NRI and just common local people. They even have a different seating plan based on your level of income and your country of origin. If you are rich and famous or from another country you sit in the front. They even discriminate on basis of colour if you’re white you sit in the front and if your brown you sit behind the white people. There are so many more things that just don’t seem so spiritual about this spiritual organization. No one has any luck even after years of meditation. Those who claim that they do, the ones I have met so far are my grandparents and it turns out their electrolytes were out of balance and they were confused and hallucinating. Sadly, few people like this make other believe that this stuff is true. You know another persons hallucinations about god turns into another persons religion kind of thing.

A Mystic Who made a Difference: Charan Singh, by an Anonomous writer
A MYSTIC is neither a necromancer nor a spiritual solipsist, not even a theologian, adept in the art of séances, mediums and the like, but the one who has a direct experience of the Eternal Being, who has tasted the elixir of divine knowledge without making any formal use of his ratiocinative faculties, and who, by his sheer grace, can illuminate human minds enmeshed in gross ignorance. Maharaj Charan Singh, the fourth spiritual Master o[ Radhasoami Sat-sang, with its headquarters at Beas, was a selfless mystic the Logos in human form , whose mind and soul remained attuned to the Supreme• Self, even while he was performing his duties in the terrestrial region.
But he was no ordinary mystic, who, in his bid to merge with the divine nature, would don the garment of a hermit and lead a life, of quietude, or go on demonstrating his Psi abilities of ecsomatic experiences to win accolades from people around. Rather, he preferred the life of a householder, in the true Tradition of Bhakti reformers, without making any high claims about himself. “‘The doctrine is not my own. Every mystic has been giving us the same teachings”, he said. His spiritual attainment did not turn him into a recluse or a religious salesman, but activated his propensity to serve humanity as per the requirements of time. He was both recipient of Supreme Knowledge, and the agent for its spread among a large section of people both in India and abroad.
Even Though comparisons between god men may look odious• if not supercilious, as They are shaped in different milieus and cater to the varying needs of human beings, ordinary mortals like this author- may not be able to restrain Themselves from making such a venture.
Maharaj Charan Singh did not like Satya Sai Baba, materialize things from air such as cardamoms, candies, watches or Vibhuti to leave a magical spell on his audiences, because he disapproved of psychism as a means to restoring faith in things supernal. Such actions, he argued, left a very injurious effect on the mind and the will power of tile performer, without helping him in any way. The Maharaj was never a Socrates to his detractors like Osho Rajneesh, but a Buddha in whose presence all questions and misgivings melted away. He remained virtually non-controversial, and never entered into the ping-pong of debate, even though he was a bachelor of laws, and once a practicing lawyer of standing.
Unlike Jiddu Krishnamurti, he did not always employ a strict philosophical idiom, with its ontological and epistemological ramifications, during the course of his talks; the reason being that his audiences included people of all types, ranging from the strictly academic to the completely illiterate. Nor did he agree with him that one could gain realization without the guidance of a guru.
In physical appearance, Maharaj Charan Singh was perhaps the handsomest of them all — his face emitting pink, and his superb carriage and erect backbone giving him a majestic look. Like Osho and Krishnamurti, he had a sparkling pair of eyes which appeared to he soaring high into tile sky, trying to unravel the mystery of the universe. Hia- bearded appearance reminded one of the seers of your wondering in the Himalayas, And even of Mahesh Yogi, although the latter did not sup­port a headgear. But he was no whirling dervish, nor a holy man in saffron or gaudy apparel. In his simple attire he was a veritable image of serenely which fascinated one and all. His musical voice and rhythmic movements reminded one of Swami Vivecananda, and in more recent times, of Osho and Chinmayananda. His large following was matched only by that of Satya Sai Baba and Dada Ji.
Maharaj Charan Singh was tile spiritual Pied piper who did not merely enchant the people by the music of his soul, but also taught them how to blow their own “pipe”, and hear the divine melody eternally resounding within them. In the process, a cult grew around him but he did not, at any stage, wished to be apotheosized. He never allowed anyone to touch his feet because of his firm faith in the dignity of man. Nor did he spend a single penny of the organization which he headed for his personal use. He transformed tile dilapidated Dera of Baba Jaimal Singh into a virtual township, and provided it a holiness and sanctity which goes with the name of ancient cities like Benaras and Hardwar, sans their dirt and dust, and occasional inhuman practices.
If one were looking for a place where one can find spiritual solace as well as the basic amenities of life at the minimum price, where one can find the spirit of sewa at its best, where politics and commercialized activities are discouraged, where no distinction is made between man and man, where people belonging to all reli­gions socialise in a more or less brotherly manner, and where the presence of the Master can be felt even in his physical absence, one should immediately turn to Beas.
During the spiritual stewardship of Maharaj Charan Singh (1951-1990) the Derv presented a supreme example of how community work could be done in a voluntary way, on such a large scale, and how religion could be put to better use for serving humanity. The functioning of langar, or the community kitchen, and Maharaja Saran Singh. Charitable Memorial Hospital, built at a cost of more than Rs 9 crore, with the physical, mental and material services of devotees, is a clear case in point.
Maharaj Charan Singh’s teachings were so simple chat even the man in the street could grasp them, without making much effort. Based, as these were, on his own spiritual experiences and the discoveries of saints and seers in the realm of being, they were neither characterized by vaguer eclecticism or mystical imagery, nor by metaphysical jugglery. He laid emphasis on the essence and not on palliatives or platitudes. There was no place for bigotry or fanaticism in his thought nor for meaningless rituals or superstitions. He emphasized that religious intolerance was born of sick minds, for did any holy man ever try to divide humanity?’
“Every saint has the same message to give, and’ the same ‘ teachings to impart…. No perfect Master comes into this world to create a religion … to ‘set one nation against another, or one religion against another. They come only to show us the way which leads us back to our original home. After a Master departs, people generally turn to rites and rituals, and give his lofty teachings the form of an organized religion. Then we become bigoted, we start fighting and quarreling with one another, and tile real teachings of the saint are soon forgotten,” he said.
The predicament of man was that even though he reflected the light of the divine being, he had come under the spell of the vicious tendencies of the mind and forgotten the real purpose of life. Man had failed to see the ephemeral nature of sensory pleasures and the dangers inherent in the proliferation of ego. As a result, he was cut off from the audible life stream or Shabad, and had lost sight of his divine home and divine origin.
Like a psychologist, Maharaj Charan Singh laid bare the intricacies of the human mind which had the bad habit of flitting from one object to another, and yet remaining unfulfilled. “We contact the outside world through the mind and the senses, but the tragedy is that the mind itself has been enslaved by the senses and has thus acquired a downward tendency. Fond of pleasure by nature … no object in the world can hold it for ever, or even for any length of time. If we can withdraw it from the outside world and make it “go in”, it will catch the divine melody which is echoing in all of us,” he explained.
The fickleness o[ human mind cannot be adequately checked by ritualistic observances, austere discipline or penitential deeds, even though these may have a tranquilizing effect. But how long can sedatives work it the basic problem persists? “The fire is only covered with ashes and will flare up again when the wind of the (five) passions blows”. Only by entering a no-mind state, can man hope to alleviate his bruised spirit and gain peace in turn. That can be possible by raising one’s consciousness to Trikuti, by way of Nam Bhakti. “We do not have to go far to find Nam”,he said. “It is within us. That part of the body from the eyes upwards is the seat of Nam. There are nine openings, or doors, in the body from the eyes downward. It is through these that the mind spreads out into the world. It should not be permitted to roam about there. It must be withdrawn from the world and the nine openings, and brought back to ‘Tisra Til’, the ‘Third eye’, which is the seat of the mind and the soul, and held there.”
The tragedy of the majority of people was that they failed to distinguish between Varnat-mak Nam and Dunyatmak Nam. The former, signifying words that could be uttered or spoken (viz. Rams, Krishna, Wahe guru, Allah), served onlyas to concentration, and from age to age, and unity to community. The latter,on the other hand, rep­resented the unspoken and the unwitten word, and could lead one forth supreme realization. It transcended pace and causation, and yet had a local habitat within us where it could be contacted. The Maharaj admonishedthat devotion to Varnatmak Nam to the exclusion Dhunyatmak Nam led to partisan cries”, “bigotry” or fanaticism”, while devotion to Dhunyatmak Nam made us rise above “castes and creeds, wars and strifes”, for, in that we saw “the divine in all.
The sound current variously referred to as Shabad, Dhun, Akashvani, Kalma, Kun, Bangillahi, Nad-i-Asmani or the Logos, in different religious traditions found an able exegete in Maharaj Charan Singh who described it as the substance of existence. But realization could not be achieved by browsing through books, undertaking fasts of pilgrimages adopting a peculiar life or visiting places of worship. It is within oneself that one must seek Him.. Unlike orthodox Sikhs, he laid emphasis on the need for a spiritual Master, who could,’ through Nam Dan lead one towards the path which connects the soul of the disciple to the sound current.. Initiation was not a shallow ritual or a ceremony of sorts, but the birth of a new soul. He, however, made it clear that it would be futile to expect miraculous results immediately after initiation. Since the secret of withdrawing the consciousness to the eye center before linking it to the word lay with the perfect Master, it was expected of the devotee to have an ardent faith ii him, , and to follow his teachings without any inhibition or hesitation. Maharaja Charan Singh often quoted from the Bible and the Adi Granth to prove his point. “He that bath seen me bath seen the Father … Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me”, says Jesus Christ. Guru Aryan Use corroborates the idea thus: “Within me the Father has revealed Himself; Father and Son have met and become one. Says Nanak, when the Father is pleased, the Father and the Son are dyed in one hub.”
Sat sang, or true association with the Master was essential for cleansing one’s mind of all imperfections, for achieving inner harmony, and for acquiring the attitude of a gurmukh who lives unsullied in the world as the duck remains in water. However, the highest form of Satsang was to be one with one’s inner self. Jealousy, pride and ego were poisons, more dangerous than the venom of cobra, in so far as the spiritual ascension of a person was concerned. The only antidote to these “substances” was Simran•and Bhajan. The former involved the repetition of the Five Holy Names according to the prescribed technique revealed to the disciple at tin time of initiation. The latter signified meditation, during the course of which one did simran and dhyana (contemplation), and listened to the Eternal Sound. It may be noted that while in the Yoga and Tantra schools consciousness is normally awakened by piercing subtle centers, one by one, starting with the Muladhara, the Radhasoamis begin with the Ajna Chakra deliberately ignoring the lower centers, and focus their attention between the two eyebrows.
Maharaj Chran Singh, like most Indian seers and philo­sophers, believed in Karma – the Universal law of cause and effect – according to which man was punished or reward (led for his bad and good deeds, respectively, and continued to undergo the process of birth and death till his account was cleared. “Every one wears the . letters of Karma, be he’ prince or beggar, rich or poor, man or woman”, he said. “It is Karma which keeps us in the prison of flesh. If we do good deeds, we may be born as princes or rich men; but this does not bring about liberation from the wheel of birth and death. Instead of being ‘C’ class prisoners, merely become ‘A’ class prisoners; but we are still in jail.” The union of the human soul with the sound current alone can nullify the cycle of karma.
All this should not he taken to mean that Maharaj Charan Singh’s gospel bordered on fatalism. In fact, held, that the doctrine of Karma was not against “making any effort”, nor did it promote exclusion from family or societal responsibilities. In a letter to his disiciple he once wrote, “My advice is that you go on honestly and conscientiously with your work … It behooves us, to live and act in such a way that we may not feel ashamed before Him.” He asked his disciples to refrain from alcoholic drinks and other intoxicants as also to take a purely vegetarian diet. the reason being that stimulants and animal food were baneful to spiritual growth, and sometimes wrecked even the physical organism.
Maharaj Charan Singh brought about a metamorphosis in the life of a large segment of his initiates. Not that, all of them became able to open their third eye, but they, at least, learnt the true art of living. Many among them ceased to be drug, addicts, alcoholics, wife-beaters or peddlers in illicit and inhuman trades. Many others experienced the spiritual ecstasy they had so ardently desired before coming under his spell, and for the attainment of which they had moved from one spiritual preceptor to another. At a time when mankind is undergoing a climacterically phase, Maharaj Charan Singh’s words instantly echo in my mind:
“Please remember that peace lies within you and not anywhere outside. Live harmoniously, – love each other, and follow the principles of give and take, forgive and forget, and you will find how happy and peaceful your life will become … The root of all troubles lies in the mind within you, and wherever you go, you will carry it with you … We are not to run away from, life like cowards, but to face it like the brave, ignoring and overlooking faults and weaknesses, and treating life’s turmoil’s with indifference.”

Above, we have two opposite view of RSSB. Reet is against the current Guru – and he gives his reasons – mainly that he is a businessman – yet he tells people that meditation is the important thing – while he focuses on building wealth here on earth.
The second holds up Charan Singh as an exceptional human being and a guru who taught the sant mat path to millions of followers.
These are just views. It means that person has a certain opinion about what is true.
All this is about belief: based on opinion and perception.
What is opinion? It is MY view. What I consider to be true.
How is that important? Especially if my track record is not good.
Take the example of Gordon Ramsay in Kitchen Nightmares
Just about EVERY SINGLE restaurant that he goes to has the same scenario:
Deluded owner thinks “MY FOOD is amazing and the BEST”
One owner said “When he tries my food, he will be doing somersaults. It is that good.”
Then when Gordon Ramsay eats the food – it is not even edible and he tellls them their food is shit.
They “Disagree”
So what?
Of course they disagree. They are deluded.
It doesn’t matter if a deluded person disagrees.
Gordon has a track record of success. He is an established authority. He knows what he is talking about.
They on the other hand have a failing restaurant.
Yet – without exception they always say “I KNOW my food is good. Gordon does not know my market. My customers love my food.”
When Gordon says “What customers? You restaurant is empty” they have no reply.
Now here is the point:
In order to move forward and break out of delusion there are specific steps.
Step 1: drop your opinion: it is irrelevant. It is not valuable, yet you value it and it is the reason you cannot see beyond your nose.
Step 2: become open to the possibility that you are completely wrong and the opinions you have valued all your life are WRONG
Step 3: listen to the “GURU” with an open mind and without the prejudice of your previous opinions. Only then can new possibilities open up.
Now of course someone could say the same to me: and they are quite correct – if I am deluded, which of course Jim and Goku and Jeff will say I am.
But what is their authority? None of them have gotten anywhere. Jim at least has some inner experience – the other two have none.
That is the exact process I went through when I was a devoted sant mat follower.
When I met my first “advaita” guru, I thought he was just deluded and I tried to explain to him that there ARE regions and that I can take him to people who have been there.
My first view was “You’re a not case – you’re talking complete nonsense”
Then slowly it became “Hmmm…. it’s POSSIBLE, I guess, but I am not convinced”
then…. “Hmm… quite possible… but tell me more…..”
next it became: “WOW this makes sense – but can I get there….”
finally…. “How can I get there?”
Of course his reply was that I was already there, because there is no place to arrive at. It is just a matter of realisation and that happens only when you drop the opinions that cloud your thinking.
However, all this remained intellectual despite all the time I spent with him.
Then, a year later, I went through a painful experience and while I was going through the pain and contemplating suicide – it all suddenly made sense.
Everything he has said to me suddenly made complete sense and I could see clearly it was the only possibility.
So clear in fact that I could not see how I did not “get it” when he was talking to me.
Then, I went to master no 2: who in four intense days of confrontation changed my whole perception of reality and at the end of that – there was no “ME”
Now all this is nonsense to everyone except me.
Everyone can argue from their point of view.
But it’s irrelevant.
because I have not acquired new beliefs.
I have dropped the old beliefs and what is left is nothing.
That “nothing” is what I call enlightenment
and the reason that Jim and Goku and Jeff don’t believe me is that this “nothing” does not tick the boxes for them.
It cannot tick the boxes – because it is not what they are seeking. It doesn’t fit their notion of enlightenment.
It never does – it cannot. It doesn’t even fit mine.
The concept can never be the reality, because the concept is wrong.
If I go to India for the first time – it will not be how I thought it would be.
But how it is, it the reality. What I thought it would be is fiction.
The fiction cannot match the reality.
Enlightenment can never match your opinion of it.
And to make it worse – no two enlightened persons agree.
because it’s not even the same thing – each has their own way of describing the indescribably unique thing – which is not even a thing.
How can you describe “There is no ME” when clearly everyone can see there is!
it is impossible for anyone to agree
and agreement is not even required

Quote 777 : “ … no humble-fixation today :-)”.
Mea culpa (*Insert Rueful-Smile Emoji*)
I truly wish I’d had better self-control, at that point.

Osho Robbins, I’m sorry I snapped out at you there.
I can see why I did it. Perhaps you can, as well? Basically, I had taken your words here at face value (a courtesy I extent to everybody to begin with, and persist with unless I see any reason not to), and was trying to see if I couldn’t learn something myself from your “realization” (not your theories, but your bare-bones realization). Subsequent interactions with you made it clear that your posturing is here nothing more than just that, a pose. In so much as you claim a realization that is different from a mere (and trivial) acknowledgement that all beliefs are simply beliefs, you are merely a poseur and a phony (or, if not that, then seriously deluded and possibly in need of help). I don’t know this for sure, of course, no one can know with 100% accuracy about another’s state of being (and much less from short online interactions), but that’s my view about your online persona at least as I see it here, and it’s close enough for my personal satisfaction that you’re no seer, and your “realization” not worth wasting time on. And my apparent irritation at you was basically an expression of my irritation with my own self, for having wasted so much time on you. But on reflection, that irritation (directed at myself) also was unfounded, because it is only by expending some time and energy that one can evaluate claims like this. Not knowing beforehand what one came to know only later, that is perfectly natural.
I stand by the content of all that I said to you, in that last comment of mine, all of it, cent per cent. Nevertheless, the discourteous tone and language in my comment, and especially the masked profanity, that I do regret deeply and apologize for. It’s too late now, but I do wish I’d worked my impatience off and been more in control of myself before clicking on the “post” button on that comment. I won’t make a nuisance of myself by asking Brian, yet again, to delete that comment, but I can and do offer you my sincere apologies.
—
In any case, your discussion with the Babaji of RSSB (and your first-hand account of Gurinder Sing’s apparently innovative views of Oneness), which after all was the main topic in the article proper, that remains a very interesting contribution to RSSB discourse. Interesting even to an outsider like me, and probably invaluable to an actual RSSB-ite, irrespective of how they resolve the issue for themselves. For that contribution (about Gurinder Sing’s answer to the question you asked there) you certainly deserve kudos.
If you can take all this impersonally, and can take criticism directed at your own religious beliefs as easily as you direct them at others’ religious beliefs, then I’d be happy to continue discussing other issues with you, as one does with everyone else here. As for my further comments to you : you musntn’t mind being spoken to, at times, in a manner not dissimilar to what you use yourself, at least when your own religious faith is the issue under discussion. My only view in such case will be to point out the absurdity of your religious beliefs. No offense, I hope?

The idea that the Master can be within you, can be one with you, “The Father and I are one”, is neither imaginary or absurd. It is sacred.
The idea that Master comes at death for His allotted and takes them either to a place in Spirit to complete their work, into another physical birth, or home to Sach Kand is not fable. It is simply the mechanics of salvation.
These are the testimonies of what lay ahead by those who have gone there many times and returned; to reunite. They are part of a Faith in what is yet unseen.
If you understand that the notion of conscious awareness and perception is nothing more than an intellectual, an artificial construction, and that it doesn’t actually exist, then it’s not so difficult to understand how the human mind symbolizes all of reality in one way or another, including spiritual reality. You can say it isn’t real or you can say it is the natural way for the human mind to understand what is beyond human conception (but not beyond comprehension).
To claim “that’s an imaginary symbol” applies to every element of “conscious” awareness and unconscious awareness. All of those elements have a basis in some reality.
Master within is what the mind can understand and actually sees within, beyond imagination. But beyond mind there is Spirit. It has its details. It isn’t vague. It isn’t an empty darkness we project imagination upon. There really are places you can go by going within. In fact it is the only way to actually travel. But it is too complex for human comprehension.
The mind cannot grasp it, but the soul sees it with much greater clarity than we perceive this place.
To be in the presence of the Master is not absurd at all. For Him to be everywhere at once and for all time, either within, or physically present wherever He pleases in this relative place, is nothing more than physical reality. Here, where matter and energy are two formats for the same thing, where all that we see as solid matter is mostly empty space, and fields of energy projected over vast distances, is not imagination.
The empty room we perceive is full. The darkness we see isn’t dark.
Imagination is what you see around you, what your brain does to handle sensation and give you a model you can deal with.

One Initiated, I’ve read the main RSSB book written by Julian Johnston, and while I don’t have that book with me right now and can’t refer the exact portion at this time, I do remember he said there that RSSB meditation begins from the Ajna Chakra. The “eye center” has been mentioned plenty of times in this blog as well (in Brian’s articles as well as in comments), and the eye center corresponds exactly with the Ajna Chakra. To that extent at least, RSSB meditation does seem to involve Chakras (or at least “Chakra”, singular). But of course that’s just a detail, and I found it very interesting, your statement that most of your actual experiences you’ve felt you’ve had at the crown region. (And the reason I brought up Chakras may be obvious to you : in Kundalini practice, they hold that activation of individual Chakras can open you up to experiences that are comparable to going off to other planes of existence, complete with visions and sights and sounds. I was wondering how that might relate with RSSB practice, a rather obvious correlation.)
Don’t worry, absolutely no offense at all! (Your less than flattering opinion on Tantra, I mean.) I do practice some meditations myself (or try to), but I’m by no means personally invested in the theology behind it. If it turns out they’re right, great. If not, well that’s great too. There are other avenues to try, then, if one still has the inclination and the time.
Incidentally, not that it’s anything to do with me personally, but I’m glad you appreciate Manjit’s account of his experiences, your surface disagreements notwithstanding. As someone on a roughly similar journey / path, wouldn’t you agree that he seems to be an astounding prodigy? The difference between his experiences, especially the early ones, and those of an adult who deliberately strives for and arrives at this sort of thing, would seem to be the difference an outstandingly talented (musical) child prodigy, and a competent and trained adult musician. Two very different categories there. You may not agree with his theology, but his journey (taken at face value) remains very remarkable!

Quote Osho Robbins : Appreciative reader, I was somewhat amused and surprised …
That is one lame comment. A lamer response than that you’d be hard-put to make, or find. Re-read that entire comment of yours, if you would : don’t you find it perfectly cringe-making yourself?
I do whatever I feel like.
So do I, I assure you. And so do most people I know. That isn’t exactly remarkable, you know.
I am merely enjoying the moment here
Are you, now? Your enjoyment, as demonstrated in this particular comment, seems kind of forced to me! But hey, whatever you say. I’m glad you’re really enjoying this, because that helps assuage my instinctive guilt at calling you out and making you look ridiculous here (or rather, at making obvious here the intrinsic ridiculousness of your pose).
…I do whatever I feel like…I am merely enjoying the moment here…
This whole comment of yours, and especially your repeated parroting out of those two Zen-ic chestnuts, seem far less like actual words of wisdom than unthinking parody. And not particularly artful parody either, here, more like the Three Stooges. Good for a laugh, though.
the big issue you created in your mind about revealing your email is a non issue.
You just go to Hotmail or Gmail and press on create account
and create a new email. Then delete it once finished.
That was so easy

That’s a truly brilliant comment, and such an illuminating piece of information. Thank you for making so very clear, with this comment, the level of your discourse.
I have no doubt at all, now, that your descriptions of your alleged realization (should you ever “feel like” getting down to it) will be just as illuminating.
It’s a real pleasure (a real hoot, I mean to say) getting to know you and thought processes.
I have no idea why you went off the deep end…
What makes you imagine I went off some deep end? All that is only in your mind.
You are looking for “ideas” about people and things (and are surprised when you don’t find them) because you are mired in the ephemeral and unreal world of ideas. That is not the correct way to behave when you are speaking with a master. The master leads you in ways you cannot begin to comprehend, to bring about changes in your psychic make-up that you cannot begin to conceive. Never try to look for reasons why the master acts as he does, says what he says, or types what he types. That is not the way of the Path of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
I do and say whatever I feel like, man. I was only enjoying the moment.
—
My first instinct was to take especial care not to muddy your online reputation here. That is why I’d requested Brian to delete those two comments of mine. But hey, someone who scratches blithely away at others’ hallowed beliefs should surely be able to take a scratching away of their own cherished beliefs and absurd posturing (even those irrational beliefs that they are supremely unaware of)? Fair game, wouldn’t you say?
And if you can see this at all impersonally, then perhaps we can even enjoy discussing all of this amicably and clearly! You know, enjoy the moment. Of course, only if you feel like it. And also, only if I also feel like it. And also, only if Brian also feels like continuing to host such discussion on his website. Only if all of us feel like it. 🙂

MY TWO CENTS ON THIS WHOLE ADVAITA V. RSSB DISCUSSION
Despite being an outsider to both RSSB and Advaita, may I add my two cents’ worth here?
I’m posting this comment here in all seriousness, and would be happy for critical inputs. Well-reasoned criticism to what I’m saying is very welcome, from the RSSB Camp, as well as Athiest Camp, as well as the Advaita Camp (which includes you Osho Robbins, seriously, if you wish to contribute your comments). This issue seems blindingly clear to me, and when one is blindingly clear about something that seems to confound other people, it usually is best to ask for feedback to see if one isn’t blinded oneself in some way.
First of all, the only truly objective and scientific view is materialism.
This seems self-evident, because that is how the words “objective” and “scientific” are defined (with accepted rules like Occam’s Razor and so forth), so this is more a tautological assertion than a real argument per se. I’m not saying this is necessarily the *truth*, but this would be the reasonable null hypothesis. Any deviations from this null hypothesis, whether Advaitic or Sant-Mat-ic, will require validation via objective evidence.
Second of all, every religious belief is essentially subjective.
This again is tautological. But this is important, because it is not always clear to believers that what they believe is actually subjective. For instance, RSSB meditators have some experiences, which are subjective experiences, and they interpret those experiences in a certain way, which is a subjective interpretation of subjective experiences. This is not to deride RSSB meditation, but to merely point out that this is strictly subjective.
Now here’s the fun part. Amazingly, we have Osho Robbins commenting away here about the subjectivity of RSSB dogma, not realizing that the Advaita dogma that he subscribes to is equally subjective and equally religious. It’s been an amazing show, his unending discourses on how many angels can pirouette away on the tip of the needle.
Advaita’s key belief of a Single Consciousness is, equally, a speculation (or, if you believe in it as truth, then a religious belief). Again, I don’t say this to deride Advaita, or even to say it is wrong, but merely to emphasize that it is subjective. I myself suspect that Osho Robbins could be trolling here, simply gassing away about non-existent “realizations” that never happened, but let’s give him the benefit of the doubt, shall we, for the sake of the argument. So, he’s had these experiences, culminating in his realization of Oneness/Nothingness. So what? That also is a wholly subjective experience! And all of this has led him to a certain conclusion about “Oneness” — Again, so what? That conclusion too is purely personal and subjective ! And his faith in his personal conclusion is exactly what religious belief is. Surely that’s obvious to anyone who isn’t wholly blindsided by their religious belief?
Thirdly, looking at Tantric and Sufi traditions of spiritual practice shows you something.
When you accept a master, then you follow what they say without necessarily exercising your intellect overly much. The idea is that these masters are aware of truths at levels beyond what is available to the novice or disciple, so the disciple isn’t equipped to evaluate those statements rationally. (Just like a cat, to paraphrase what Brian said elsewhere in a different context, can’t reason out how a car works, no matter how much it tries, and no matter how detailed the explanations.) And besides, the master sometimes does things for effect, to bring about transformation in the disciple. It isn’t a question, then, of right or wrong, but of what the master intends for the disciple. The original Osho, Rajneesh himself, too has said this in more than one place. What is more, Osho Robbins himself quotes Rajneesh as having said this, yet he seems not to have understood what he is parroting.
The idea is this. Test some master all you want before committing to him, but once you do, you need to trust him fully. So, once you accept, say, Gurinder Sing as your master, then you stop trying to evaluate him using your intellect. Because (a) what he says is beyond your capability to comprehend, on a different “level”, like a cat not understanding how a car works ; and (b) he may be saying what he is saying simply to bring some transformation in you. So, if you accept him as master, it behooves you to follow his words like a faithful disciple, no matter whether it makes sense or not.
Of course, you can choose to stop being his disciple, or stop accepting him as master. But even then, it makes no sense to try to rationally argue out sources that you don’t accept in the first place.
See, the devotee of Gurinder Sing will look at different things the man says, to fashion his thoughts and mode of living per those sayings. But someone who doesn’t believe in Gurinder Sing’s adept-hood, how in the world can he try to quote such source, which he’s saying himself is erroneous, to back up his argument? If I don’t believe that the Bible is the gospel truth, then how can I quote passages in it to back up other theological positions that I’m in favor of? That kind of selective-argument-from-authority is sheer nonsense!
It is exactly this kind of parody of rationality that leads to crazy debates like the one about how many angels can fit on the point of a needle.
What I said above applies to the religious man following his chosen religion in his own personal space.
If, however, you should try to pretend that your subjective religion is objective, and force it down unwilling throats, then, no matter who you are, a different standard will apply. Then you will be needed to back up your claim with evidence. And you will end up, in all likelihood, to be found wanting.
So, if RSSB followers tried to make a universal religion of their faith, and tried to compel others to not eat flesh and eggs, for instance, then sure, they are going to be pulled up, and evidence demanded of them.
But I’m not sure that is what is happening here. What is happening is just the contrary. What we have here is a religious apologist for Advaita, a believer in Advaita theology who is deluded into thinking that his subjective belief is objective reality, and who is trying to force his Advaitic thoughts on unwilling RSSB devotees. This is a classic recipe for a religious war, exactly the same in principle like Muslims killing Christians as well as Muslim apostates in Islamic theocracies for not following crazy Islamic laws. And this sort of nonsense must be called out, and shown for what it is, in the clearest possible terms. This sort of bamboozling of the gullible must never be allowed to go unchallenged, which is why I’ve decided to speak up now.
Osho Robbins is a religious fundamentalist. That’s exactly what he appears like to me, a disinterested observer, basis his comments here. He has been brainwashed into thinking that Advaitic Oneness is objective truth (when actually it is only subjective religious belief, one amongst many others). He is deluded into thinking that his alleged “realization” experience(s) and the subjective conclusions he draws from them are objective truth. Even if his belief is backed by actual experience (which frankly I doubt, but even if it is), even then it is no different from subjective RSSB belief backed by subjective RSSB experience.
So I’m going to wade right in, and challenge Osho Robbins to show us his objective evidence for Oneness. (And if he can do that, he can be assured of a Nobel Prize as well.)
Of course, there is yet another way of looking at this debate about how many angels fit in at the needle’s tip.
If both Osho Robbins himself, as well as other RSSB-ites, still consider him still a full-fledged RSSB-ite, and if this debate is merely a theological dispute amongst two different camps within the RSSB group itself, then, hey, I have no right to butt in! Just as I’d have no right to but in if different Islamic groups got together to debate subtle theological differences about specific interpretations in the Koran or the Hadith or whatever. If everyone sees this as an internal debate, internal to RSSB theology, in those terms, well then I’m an outsider and shouldn’t butt in, and leave you to it.
If this last option doesn’t hold, and the outsider’s views are not seen as unwelcome interference, then, like I said, I really don’t see why all this heat and dust on here.