Indian guru convicted of rape. His followers riot, killing 32.

I have been reading your blogs and have had experience personally through my husband who became reborn Christian and then joined Amway in spite of being a successful orthopedic surgeon! He started breathing eating and talking nonstop about bible and plugged his ears and listened to amway tapes 24/7. It destroyed our family and led to divorce as he got involved with a woman who also loved this cult . I m always skeptical about these deras and their spiritual masters who prey on the weak and vulnerable people who get convinced by these selfish people who become rich ! I m so happy with the verdict from cib on this so called God guru who castrated his male devotees but raped his women devotees.

This is what happens when believers are fanatical.
This guru is a Radha Soami guru as his origins are from Sawan Singh.
Maybe he thought he was invincible. Started to believe his own press.
As long as he never got found out he was a hero.
once he is found out – he becomes a zero.
He has made a few movies.
Perhaps he might make a new movie
“From Hero to Zero” from prison
it started with Mastana Ji in April 1949 to was a disciple of Sawan SIngh
His successor Shah Satnam Singh took over on February 28, 1960. And
Mastana Ji died on April 18, 1960.
in 1990, Gurmeet Ram Rahim became the successor.
https://www.derasachasauda.org/shah-mastana-ji-maharaj/
https://www.derasachasauda.org/param-pita-shah-satnam-ji-maharaj/
This could happen to any guru.
And because the followers believe he is God, they will do anything
including cause riots and kill people.
It will appear to be the right thing to do.
When you have strong feelings you will do anything.
If something like this happened to the RSSB guru, would not the followers
cause riots also?

Gurinder of Beas doesn’t prey on anybody.

I am not saying he does.
I am sure that this gurus followers would also say the same, and will say this is a stitch up.
However, see the facts. Gurinder is not squeaky clean.
He made millions for his sons using his guru influence.
He took houses from poor people (the Babani incident) and did not compensate them by giving them the correct market value.
Is this not preying on poor people? This is the reason that Babani died a broken and depressed man. He could not reconcile this behaviour with that of a perfect master.
After all, the scriptures say that the guru is not hungry for your money – as he has the wealth of naam.
Then why take houses from poor people who only have that one asset?
When Babani came to see him, he first made him see his lawyers and take back the legal case.
That is appalling behaviour and is not in line with what a perfect master would do.
what explanation do all you believers have?
None. You just pretend it never happened, but it did.
here is the incident
https://sandeepbhalla.com/2012/07/15/babani-sahibs-radhasoami-satsang-and-interview/
It this in line with how a perfect master behaves?
Only the brain washed people will believe and are impressed by him.
How can anyone say what Gurinder does or does not do.
All you have is your beliefs.

RS Sceptic,
Just like Sant Kirpal Singh, Baba Somanath & Pritam Das, the Mastana Balochistani was not being given the authority by The Great Master Sawan Singh Ji Mahraj to be the successor or to start a separate sect.
So essentially mastana was never really the guru at all in the first place. And so the satnaam singh and the gurmeet singh were false successors of the falsely sect.
It’s yet another sad episode of witnessing a faker posing as a guru – good thing is that he is exposed now – bad thing is that 10s of 1000s of innocent people are bearing uncalled pains. Loss of public property, loss of the human lives. This all is just so sad to observe.
Sceptic, you know nothing about Babani, what all you are saying is just a hearsay. You will have to meet the nephew and all the connected ones in person to know the details.
Just giving the example from an online text account is nothing but absurd.
Why in the world you would assume that someone who is not going to follow the rules setup by the Master at the Master’s place should be allowed to create mess in the premise ?
And if you’d really think of it more rationally you’ll find how impractical it would be to allow any one who doesn’t follow a particular life style, say he consumes alcohol, consumes non vegetarian food, how good it will be to accommodate such a person in the small premise of group of families who follows the path of Sant Mat ?
Did you know whether the flat owners had a deed / lease or really the freehold property ?
If the land was owned by Maharaj Ji / RSSB society – why should it be allowed to be sold to the outsiders ? Doesn’t it sound totally irrational to you ?
Did you try to read that the difficulties being faced by the disciples in the course of a True Master’s teachings are being paid back enormously by the Master.
Did you enquire how the relatives are so well to do now that they have built their houses elsewhere ? Did you ever try to consider that it was great grace of the Master to them to be able to do so well financially in their life ?
Why is RSSB Dera Beas is the most beautiful and most peaceful place on earth ? They do not allow electronics, smoking, alcohol, non vegetarian food, external vehicles – call these all restrictions – but remove them and assume what the common person will do ?
RSSB is the place full of spiritual bliss, mental peace and these worldly negativities are simply not allowed to be entered there. whether you like it or not.
About RSSB, please sincerely track down the history of all the Masters at RSSB and you will come to know how the Masters gave away their lives taking on lots of things on their own.
What you are comparing is not comparable really.
To whichever inner state a disciple is, if he is not abide by his Master’s orders, he is a failed disciple – for whatever state he has been advanced to, was only due to the blessings by his Master and not by his efforts.
You are comparing a failed disciple with the accomplished Master.
Whatever has happened, the loss of the human lives, the troubles to hundreds of people – this all is truly sad and is upsetting. This shouldn’t have happened had the beings like gurmeet singh didn’t pose himself as guru. The poor have suffered uncalled losses because of the false guru and blind following.
It’s just like those unfortunate poor patients who gets trapped with the cheaters disguised as medical practitioners who rob them of their money and making their medical condition even worse… despite many cheaters in medical profession, there are truthful doctors and surgeons exists who helps thousands of patients and treats them well.
~OI

Hi Brian!
You wrote :
“This is just one more reason to forsake blind belief and embrace open-eyed reason. It is highly dangerous to believe that you know truths about reality that are hidden from others and that there is no possibility of your being mistaken”
That certainly was true of the Atheists Robespierre, Hitler and Stalin. Each had faithful followers, each murdered millions of innocents. Any faith in a system of belief, even Atheism, even a political belief, can be dangerous if it is blind faith. Any time you can’t say “they might be right, I might be wrong..” about others you find yourself talking serious umption with, you are in the danger zone.
And yet the inability to trust, because we are not omniscient and stubbornly refuse to take that risk, also has led to the tragic deaths of millions, such as the refugees who were refused sanctuary by some distrustful Americans.
There is no escape from the risk of trust and faith. Even a scientist must have faith in and act on what is only a hypothesis, if that has any hope of becoming theory. And sometimes that faith must sustain for decades of careful refinement before the hypothesis can be tested under the correct controlled conditions.
The answer is not to not trust, but to have a reasonable basis for trust.
Publicity that gives false praise and credit for good deeds to a personality are no more dangerous than those which slander falsely.
A reasoned approach rejects slander, however attractive to our beliefs, as readily as false praise.
To judge a human being you may choose to trust the courts… There are many rapists among those with no belief in God….
Or you may, more intelligently, reserve such judgements when all the facts are at hand and when your judgment leads to a change in your own behavior. Usually yourself, first and foremost.

So Spencer, tell me this: I’ve admitted that I have no problem saying “I don’t know” and “I could be wrong” when it comes to matters of spirituality, religion, God, gurus, and such. Are you willing to entertain those same thoughts?
Specifically, when it comes to Sant Mat, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Gurinder Singh, are you willing to say “I don’t know if these teachings are true” and “I could be wrong about the truthfulness of my beliefs”?
I look forward to your answer.

One Initiated, you are clearly brainwashed and unable to think clearly.
If you want to go by “being appointed” as the basis of whether a master is a true master, then you have some real issues to answer
1: Jaimal was never appointed by Swami Shiv Dayal
we know this as a fact because his name is not even mentioned when asked about successors.
2. Swami Ji himself was not appointed by his guru.
Besides, exactly how do you know Mastana was not appointed?
Was you there?
obviously not
so it’s just hearsay.
You don’t know anything – just what you believe which is RSSB propaganda.
Even if I don’t know about the Babani incident, one thing that is clear is that he was depressed after the meeting with Gurinder.
Why would he be depressed?
Obviously he realized that Gurinder was not a perfect master if he has no compassion for poor people.
He would rather the RSSB society gets richer than care about the lives of those people who paid for their property.
This is not the behaviour of someone who is steeped in the spiritual life.
Jaimal was not concerned about material things at all. He told sawan that he would get stuck in the dera if he created it.
RSSB is now a religion the same as any other. It has beliefs and followers. It is not a science. It’s a religion.
Those who follow are blind. Babani just saw through it before he died.
most followers are not so lucky. They will die believing the lies

scientists do not have faith and trust. I don’t know where you get such crazy ideas.
A scientist proposes a hypothesis, then runs experiments to test that hypothesis. There is no place for trust or faith in the process.
Also he has no allegiance to the outcome. He seeks truth.

Brian says
“I don’t know” and “I could be wrong”
believers find it hard to say this because they think their beliefs are the truth. They think they know.
They are sure they are right and cannot admit they could be wrong.
Believers have it all worked out

your information i am pasting the bababi incident here.
what becomes clear is that RSSB is a greedy and corrupt organisation
not a spiritual organisation.
the disciples spend their life serving the organisation thinking they will get some
spiritual benefit.
All they get is a kick in the teeth.
none of the gurus have any loyalty to their disciples.
Gurinder has made a fortune using his position as guru.
the disciples are seen as dispensable.
here is the article with the details
As is obvious, the elderly gentleman who is described in this account is Mr. Krishin Babani, Waking Now’s late father in law.
———————————-
A Look into the Beas Dera Culture
By Waking Now
Hi,
I have been reading posts here for some time and have appreciated that many of you have seen through the façade of RSS Beas.
I came in contact with RSS Beas as a teenager 50 years ago, slid into the cult in the early fifties, became a functionary, and officially left in the early nineties.
Since leaving I am learning to live by my own light. I have delved into the roots of the spiritual traditions of my Indian culture by readings and pilgrimages and have understood the working of the RSS Beas feudal religious cult within which I was caught for a very long time. This reminds me of the Sawan Singh quote: ‘Santmat is not taught, it is caught’, I would say, ‘Santmat is not taught, the Satsangi is caught’.
I have decided to post here in the hope that I might shine more helpful light.
Real RSSB-A Look
I met him at his Sawan Sadan flat in Bandra, Bommbay.
“Meet me before you return”, He had phoned.
“I will meet you but there are some conditions”, I said.
First condition is that I will meet you at the nearby park.
The second condition is that you will shave and take a bath and wear clean clothes.
“I am sorry I cannot meet your first condition”, he said. “I have remained in my room for so long that I no longer have strength in my legs to walk up to the park, but I will meet your second condition. I will shave and get ready”.
“All right”, I said.
He had met me some days earlier at the place where I was staying and I was shocked to see an unkempt haggard person, enter the room instead of the handsome personable man I had known.
“What’s the matter”, I asked.
“It is my fate”, he said, “My fate was made before I was born so what can I do”.
But I don’t believe in Karma and fate any more.
What, you don’t believe in Karma, you, a great Satsangi? (Mr. Babani’s quote)
No, I don’t believe in anything anymore. I just pay attention to my life. (Waking Now)
We had some tea and refreshments and did some small talk during which he would interject, “It’s my fate”.
Later, I spoke to his relatives and they said that he is getting close to 70, maybe, he is getting Alzheimer’s.
On further inquiry, I found that sometime back he had been intensely pressured to go to the Dera at Beas (“We will carry you if you don’t go”, the Official had said) to meet Baba Ji [my insert-Gurinder] to settle an old lingering dispute over his flat. He had gone to the Dera with his nephew, whose parents had lived with his Uncle, a single person, [my insert-Mr. Babani is the uncle] for the last over 35 years.
At the appointed hour, they entered the gates of the Residence where Audiences are given.
Inside, off the main path, is a Gazebo set in the garden, where people with appointments wait until they are called.
When the Uncle and nephew reached the Gazebo, they found two Dera lawyers also waiting there.
One of them told the Uncle, “You have to sign some papers before you can have Audience with Baba Ji”.
What papers?
“You have to cancel the papers saying that after your death your flat goes to your brother and after his death, to his son, your nephew, and instead you have to Will your flat to the Dera”.
The Uncle was in shock. He had flown two thousand miles for this meeting where he was expecting Grace and a just resolution of the dispute with the Dera.
He hesitated, and then said, “All right, I will sign whatever you want”.
So they brought the papers before him. He cancelled earlier entries and willed the flat to the Dera.
He was then asked to proceed for the Audience.
Both he and his nephew stepped into the room. Baba Ji was waiting together with the Bombay Secretary.
Baba Ji asked the nephew to wait outside.
Inside, Baba Ji patted the Uncle on the back and said, “Satsangis should not file a case against the Gurughar (the house of the Guru)”.
The nephew was called in. He had witnessed what had gone on outside at the Gazebo, so when he met Baba Ji he said “What will happen to my parents after my Uncle is gone”
Baba Ji replied, “We won’t take the flat while your parents are alive”.
Than you, Baba Ji..
I asked the nephew, an established businessman and a Bombay sewadar, after he recounted this [corruption in transcript-remainder of sentence lost].
Will.
“What could I do”, he said, “it is my Uncle’s Will, so his own business”.
I then asked whether Baba Ji had given in writing that he would let his parents stay in the flat after his Uncle’s death.
No, he said.
I then said that if it was Baba Ji’s intention to let your parents stay after your Uncle died, why would He force your Uncle to change the Will.
To that he had no answer.
He told me that sometime after returning from the visit to the Dera (‘Heaven on Earth’ it is called) the Uncle had refused to leave his room and started behaving abnormally.
I said it seemed to me that changing his Will under pressure at the Dera had caused deep depression.
The origin of the dispute with the Dera goes back some forty years to Charan Singh’s reign. When land was purchased in Bandra Bombay for a Satsang hall, Maharaj Ji (Charan Singh) had inquired from the Bombay Secretary of the time, a very successful Builder, whether Dera could get the adjoining empty plot.
“Yes Maharaji Ji, it belongs to me and you can have it”.
Shortly afterwards, there was discussion about developing the property with Maharaj Ji.
A mixed-use development was proposed. Maharaj Ji wanted the ground floor to be planned for offices and halls, and flats to be in the two upper floors, “But will the satsangis buy flats in the building”, he had asked…
Yes, Maharaj Ji, I have two brothers who are thinking of moving from their location and they will buy flats.
“All right then”, said Maharaj Ji
So the project was begun. The availability of the flats for purchase was announced at Satsang. Eight flats were available, four on the first floor and four on the second. Buyers came and as is the Bombay custom, installment payments began. The four flats on the second floor were made into two sets.
One set was purchased by the brother of the Secretary with a large family, and the other by another Satsangi family. On the first floor, two flats were kept for the use of Dera dignitaries (Gurinder has stayed in one of them while having a job in Bombay), one was bought by the Secretary’s brother, who was single by staying with his mother and brother’s family, and the last by another satsangi family.
After the flats were completed and the papers signed and the monies paid, the families started living there.
Some years later, the older brother with the large family had a stroke and was paralyzed.
Since the Sawan Sadan building had no lift (elevator), it became very difficult for his family members to carry him down two flights of steps. So the family decided to sell their flat and move to another in a building with a lift. They found a buyer and as is normal for people living in flats in Bombay, sought permission of their Housing Cooperative Society (because flats in buildings are bought cooperatively and the building maintained by its registered Society) which in the case was the Dera (RSSB).
To their surprise, Dera said, No, you can’t sell the flat to a non satsangi.
So they thought, as a family member told me last year, Dera is a religious society so they do not want meat eaters and alcohol drinkers.
So then they arranged to sell or trade the flat with a Satsangi who was living in a building with a lift and again asked the Dera, their housing society, for approval.
No, the Dera said, you can’t do that; we must first approve the Satsangi buyer.
They were dismayed and sought an explanation.
“You can’t sell your flat”.
‘The flat belongs to us, you are not Owners of the flat, you are only Occupants. The price you paid for the flat was not the purchase price but was to be treated as a deposit.”
The Satsangi owners were in disbelief. The found themselves in a strange predicament unheard of among flat owners in Bombay. They spoke to the Bombay Secretary, the Builder. Two of his blood brothers (not just satsangi brothers), had bought flats.
From family sources, I learnt that the Secretary discussed the situation with Maharaj Ji (Charan Singh). He told Maharaj Ji, “When the Satsangi had bought the flats, it was not so that they were to be Occupants and the purchase price was to be a Deposit.”
Maharaj Ji was unmoved.
(It did not matter that the Satsangi owners felt misled or misinformed and their equity (life savings) in a flat in Bombay was at stake. Or even that the devoted Satsangis, dependent for protection of their worldly as well as spiritual well-being on their Guru, could have made an honest mistake.)
‘No.”, Maharaj Ji said, “The Dera model must be followed. The Dera owns the property.”
The Secretary wilted, he could not stand up to Maharaj Ji. (He could not go against the RS teaching, the obedience to the Guru is paramount.)
A family member recalled to me last year. The Secretary came back from the meeting with Maharaj Ji and told his brother Satsangi owners, “Donate your flat to the Dera, you will get 10 times in return”.
The flat owners did not agree. It was a question of their life savings. One of the ladies of the family recalled the event and commented, “Donation is by choice, it is not forced”. Another lady said, “We were a large family, we saved with great difficulty to buy the flat.” One said, “It was not the Secretary who was being skinned”.
Instead, the Satsangi owners banded together and hired a lawyer.
The extended family of the Secretary was split. “Why had the brothers living in the flats disobeyed Maharaj Ji”. The brothers no longer had good relationships. This attitude even extended to their children, the cousins-one set looking down upon the other. Even in 2001 when I met some of them, there was alienation.
The Dera threatened one of the Owners who also had a house at the Dera, “Withdraw your suit or we will take away your Dera house”.
The suit was not withdrawn. The Dera house was forcibly taken away.
The Dera then started other intimidation tactics. A board was erected in front of the property saying that it belonged to the Dera and no one could engage in buying or selling the flats.
A Bombay RSSB committee member was chosen to front litigation. As a family member recalled, He told Baba Ji, “I am a Bombay flat owner…I know they have rights, how can I be a party to the case”.
“Do it,” Baba Ji said, “I am behind you”.
He submitted that and complied.
The paralyzed brother had died. Fortunately, his children had prospered in their business and constructed a house elsewhere.
The Dera then started tackling each owner separately. They persuaded the wealthy family to give up their double flat now worth nearly seventy times the original price, and promised them a flat at the Dera. The family did not want any more hassles and were wealthy enough to afford to donate it. The other owners pleaded with them, “You will break our band, and weaken our litigation, don’t settle”. They decided otherwise.
The other brother was forced to will his flat to the Dera.
The remaining owners until last month were still in litigation. Dera is trying other settlement tactics with them.
Last year, I asked a Bombay RSSB Committee member what he thought of the Sawan Sadan Satsangi flats case.
“Dera is wrong there”.
‘Then what did you do about it”.
“I expressed this opinion at a Board meeting.”
“That’s all”.
Silence ensued.
The old Bombay Secretary [Mr. Babani-my insert], a giant of man in business and organization skills and a famous Satsang orator, an RSSB pillar, known to many Westerners who attended Maharaj Ji’s programs in Bombay and saw him on Foreign tours, died last year, a mentally weakened man.
His son said he had Alzheimers but I found that while his recall was not good, some of his remarks were very intelligent. He was kept away from the ordinary Satsangis because he spoke things about RSSB, the management did not want ordinary Satsangis to hear. He had become critical of the RSSB.
He told me, “Now, Dera is making a fool of me. I will show them”.
I said, “I have left the Institution, you can do the same”.
“No”, he said, “it was easy for you, it is very difficult for me”.
A few weeks before he died, I had visited him and taught him the Happy Buddha Qi Gong movement, which he enjoyed practicing very much.
Some time before he died, a Dera Lawyer come and got an affidavit from him to say that he never announced in Satsang (40 years ago) that the Sawan Sadan flats were for sale. The lawyer then took the piece of paper to the brother living in one of the flats and said, “Look, you have no case”. [my insert-I was informed this was not the only false affidavit that Gurinder extracted from Mr. Babini later on his deathbed].
Ironically, his school teacher, Parmanand, who had introduced him to RS when the Bombay Secretary was a young man, during his last years, verbally abused RS. At the time I heard of a Satsangi saying that Parmanand had lost his mind.

one initiated,
you can clearly see from the posting above that it’s not the way you think.
Babani was forced to change his will to give the flat to the dera.
You call this spirituality?
It is a disgrace to use people’s faith and belief to rob them
Babani had spent his entire life preaching for RSSB and this is the
treatment he gets.
It’s a kick in the teeth.
No wonder he was depressed.
people give land freely to the dera
and the dera robs people.
cut it any way you choose – this is not spirituality.
this is corruption and greed.
and only people who have nothing better to do with their lives
will spend their live doing seva and following RSSB
They think they will get their reward after death.
They won’t, They are just believers the same as believers of any other religion.
there is no evidence that RSSB is the one true teaching.
everyone believes and that is why they follow. they are brainwashed.
Babani saw it clearly – and got depressed because he realised he had wasted his whole
life preaching for a corrupt organisation that just fored him to change his will in the end.
that is the thanks he got for a lifetime of seva.
of course he was going to get depressed.
when the guru cares more about your flat than you – it’s a wake up call.

Sceptic,
you said:
“Jaimal was never appointed by Swami Shiv Dayal
we know this as a fact because his name is not even mentioned when asked about successors.”
Brother, you have to get your facts right.
You are big time mistaken. Soami Ji Maharaj’s final conversation at Agra is all in context of Agra’s proceedings and that’s why it doesn’t have any mentioning of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj.
It appears you have not gone through all the texts and the biographies which is legitimately available from the authentic resources even at Agra’s libraries.
You are surely not perceiving all the information correctly.
If you go through the text around Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj, you will be surprised to know that Soami Ji Maharaj had allowed Jaimal Ji to start giving the Naam Daan even when HE was posted with Millitary and was still on job. That was the only one of it’s kind of account, when Soami Ji Maharaj still being a Guru had asked a disciple who has advanced so much spiritually, to start giving Naam Daan well before even declaring HIM the Successor.
When Soami Ji Maharaj left the physical plane and after that Jaimal Singh Ji arrived at Agra, HE was greatly being welcomed with great warmth by every one including those who were being given the authority for the proceedings at Agra – including Chaha Ji, Mata Ji and Saligram Ji and others.
In front of all the Soami Ji’s disciples, Saligram Ji told HIM that “you are the only real successor of Soami Ji and hence no one can sit on the gaddi when you are here”.
Saligram Ji offered their gaddi to Jaimal Singh Ji for sitting even for the meetup and Jaimal Singh Ji politely denied even sitting on that.
Then Mata Ji brought the Pagadi which Soami Ji Maharaj had left especially for Jaimal SIngh Ji and the rasam pagdi took place right in front of all of the existing disciples of Soami Ji Maharaj there at Agra at that time. And Mata Ji conveyed the message to Jaimal Singh Ji that Soami Ji have ordered you to take on the proceedings at Beas, Punjab.
All of the above with much more greater details is available both online in PDFs as well as hard copies I believe.
Please read through them before keeping false perceptions.
Also I would recommend you you to go through the book Spiritual Gems (part 1) which is the beautiful conversation b/w Jaimal SIngh Ji and Sawan Singh Ji… and you will get all your doubts cleared up related to the construction of well and the Beas Satsang Center.
And why I am here telling you to go through these books is because I have seen you frequenting here and mostly telling the partial information many times in many comments. I think it’ll be of your great information once you go through the above texts and books.
Lots of love to you.
~OI

Hi Brian!
You wrote
“So Spencer, tell me this: I’ve admitted that I have no problem saying “I don’t know” and “I could be wrong” when it comes to matters of spirituality, religion, God, gurus, and such. Are you willing to entertain those same thoughts?
Specifically, when it comes to Sant Mat, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and Gurinder Singh, are you willing to say “I don’t know if these teachings are true” and “I could be wrong about the truthfulness of my beliefs”?
I look forward to your answer. ”
I’ll give you the short course.
I experienced that travel through regions at a very early age and was terrified for years. Different sources had different explanations. My parents were concerned about me for some time and tried to give me what professional help was available at the time. When I came to the Path the description of those states was the opening of a door. No other religion, science or philosophy explained, nor today explains, in such detail the curse I had been given, which returned repeatedly and without my control or consent.
The teachings have proven absolutely correct and do so easily every day.
But at the time as a devout student of science, physics in particular, and the son of an engineer, I had great doubts about submitting to a guy in a turban half way around the world.
But those descriptions were compelling, and the philosophy of doing no harm, the ethics, were attractive. So I submitted my application and undertook the practice. On the day Mt. St. Helens erupted, and I was watching it on TV, I opened a letter to find I had been accepted by Master.
Beyond that my relationship with Charan and Baba Ji is entirely personal.
As you can see from above my daily experience provides evidence of the teachings for me, but not to anyone else.
Therfore it is possible that someone else may have different results, different experiences, and what else, what other evidence can we use?
Hard research is hard to come by on this subject. However, what is available supports the conclusion that for most people deep meditation is very healthy.
I agree with you that the testimony of any one else is suspect, and most is purely conjecture. If any scientist were able to duplicate all the stages of the experiences I’ve had, naturally I would conclude the theory had merit. But neuroscience is very far from that level of understanding. Yet mystics have had that for millenia. We can take some of their explanations as culture bound, but the experience is a personal and verified reality that a successful practitioner can confirm for themselves repeatedly.
And I am disinclined to believe anything that flatters my own opinion. Though many people do so. That is also a trap.
So, go with what works for you, Brian.
That’s what I believe today. Every day the lab, every day effort to uncover more truth. So, to paraphrase Sawan Singh, if something better comes along I’m there.
Change is the way. My understanding of the path is so very much different today than it was, and so will be tomorrow.
Today I don’t bother asking about God. It’s too theoretical. But my place in this creation is much more concrete.
But I acknowledge we are each bound by our conditioning and experience.
Try to be a better critical thinker, a more perceptive viewer, a cleaner and more sensitive instrument of perception,keep your awareness and consciousness both as high as possible. Is your philosophy so different?

To “One Initiated” –
Can you share link to the online PDF or the name of the books where details of Soami Ji Maharaj giving instructions for Jaimal are mentioned as per your comment below?
“All of the above with much more greater details is available both online in PDFs as well as hard copies I believe”.

RS Sceptic
You wrote
“of course he was going to get depressed.
when the guru cares more about your flat than you – it’s a wake up call.”
You have it bass akwards, RS
When you care more about your house than your love for your Guru, kiss your progress goodbye, watch your own happiness disappear into a faint memory, soon forgotten.
As for your comments about the faith and reasoned trust necessary in science, let me help enlighten you about the courage, risk and faith necessary to be a good scientist. It is not blind faith, for it rests on evidence and reason. But until the experiment is conducted, it is unproven.
Every experiment that is truly experimental, is unproven until the experiment, under controlled conditions, is successfully completed. Then the truth is there in new evidence to support or disprove the hypothesis.
It is not the same blind and endless faith of religion, but without this temporary faith, no scientific discovery could be made.
And so science also is not filled with such cynics who refuse to take the small risk of conducting their own experiments. Quite the contrary, most scientists rush to duplicate what new results have been reported.
Cynics and those who hold to blind faith both suffer the same intellectual laziness of clinging to inadequate superstitions and cynical slander rather than taking the role of open minded personal investigation and experimentation. Try it. Be surprised. Have your opinion disproven by your own initiative and new evidence. Nothing like it. Humility and bliss all in the same moment.
The scientist is humbled by their science all the time. Even if that is their meditation. The in irritate sees their own intellectual limitations more clearly and so withdraws to a place of experience instead of conjecture and slander. And this is one reason they have access to joy: the cost is only opinion.

Dear RS Sceptic,
Regarding the flats in Bombay….
Is there any information as to whether the Dera was willing to return the initial “deposit” made by the flat occupants once they no longer wanted to live there?
(Was the Dera at least willing to return the initial sum of money?)
But then even if they did so; the occupants believed they had purchased the flats, and the value of the flat must have increased over time….
I wonder if the occupants were offered the initial sum in return?
Also, weren’t the occupants given an Owner’s Title deed if they had actually purchased the apartment?
(If so, there shouldn’t be a fuss about whom the flat belonged to, regardless of what the Dera says…)
There seems to be so many questions revolving around this case that it may just be more complex than what we can simply learn from just an interview excerpt that you shared… (that’s my opinion anyways)….

Dear one-initiated,
please present your evidence that jaimal was a legitimate successor,
or even that Swami was a legitimate successor ot Tulsi Sahib of Hathras
here is my evidence
http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/page1.html
“Swami Ji treated Girdhari as a Guru during this time, before he went public after Girdhari’s death in 1861. There is also a possibility Sanmukh Das could have initiated Jaimal Singh after Swami Ji’s death.”
This is the original beas version of spiritual letters
https://www.scribd.com/doc/30632600/Jaimal-Singh-Spiritual-Letters
on page 16 are the last words of Swami ji
no mention of Baba Jaimal at all. Despite all the direct questions being asked oh Swami about who will be the successor.
He mentions everyone except Jaimal.
I wonder why no mention of Jaimal?
Beas then makes their own claim about Jaimal which is not verified by any other source.
If you are happy to go with that as evidence – then you will also have to say that Kirpal’s claim is equally valid. he also says sawan told him to go to delhi and start satsang there.
And also Mastana’s claim is equally valid.
Why are you happy to believe the RSSB claim (which is very weak considering all the evidence is against Jaimal being an officially appointed successor)
but will not accept Kirpal’s or Mastana’s claim?
All the evidence is very strong that both Jaimal and Swami were self appointed.
Girdhari Das was the successor to Tulsi Sahib, not Swami ji.
Swami used to spend a lot of time with Girdhari Das, and maybe was hoping to
be appointed the successor. When Girdhari Das appointed  Shri Dihal Saheb as his successor, Swami ji started his own mission and started initiating exactlyt a year later.
He never set up as a guru while Girdhari was alive as he respected him as a guru.
here’s the source
https://medium.com/sant-mat-meditation-and-spirituality/maharaj-girdhari-sahib-a-spiritual-successor-of-sant-tulsi-sahib-and-friends-with-soami-ji-maharaj-2f8ffcb7d342
“What had been the one Tulsi Sahib group associated with Girdhari, with a satsang in Agra and one in Lucknow, became two groups: one branch continuing in Lucknow headed by Shri Dihal Saheb, and the other one based in Agra lead by Soami Ji Maharaj (Sant Radhasoami Sahib) eventually becoming known as the Radhasoami Satsang.”
If you have any evidence other than RSSB unfounded claims, please show me.
otherwise – the evidence is that both Swami and Jaimal were self appointed.

It would appear that things are not as described in RSSB books.
Swami did not meditate in a dark cave for 17 years
instead he spent time with Girdhari das and considered him as his guru.
A year after his death, he started his own mission when Girdhari did not
appoint him as the successor.
Jaimal also did not meditate 13 years before giving initiation.
In fact he was not appointed a successor at all.
Think about it clearly. Why would Swami Ji not even mention his name when he is listing so many other names of his successors.
Why would he not say “I have sent Jaimal to spread the teachings in the punjab”
The truth is a far cry from the RSSB version.
There is also a lot of controversy over the successorship after sawan.
Nothing is as simple as it seems.

dear spencer,
I cannot believe how deluded you are.
“When you care more about your house than your love for your Guru….”
are you for real?
Babani sacrificed his whole life for RSSB.
He conducted satsands and held question answer sessions.
He did satsangs on the entire japji sahib satsang series.
He was Charan’s right hand man and came on the world tours.
He was completely devoted to RSSB.
He knew the teachings thoroughly.
When Charan stopped all other tapes, he allowed only two tapes
to remain – his own and Babani’s.
Obviously Charan valued Babani’s service.
I am not sure but he might have been initiated by Sawan singh.
He doesn’t care one bit for his house.
He wills it to RSSB, just be being asked.
I bet you wouldn’t do that!
And you question his devotion?
You are seriously deluded.
His devotion is unquestionable.
However, when he sees that Gurinder is only interested in his house
and has no interest in his spiritual journey, he obviously realized he
had been conned.
Imagine you go to see Gurinder and he has lawyers who say to you
that you can see your guru only after you sign over your house.
I can guarantee you would not sign over your house and would instead
run far far away from RSSB and call it a con.
He simply signed as requested – trusting his guru’s successor.
Then he realized it was a setup.
Why was the guru so interested in the changing of the will?
Because that was his focus. He didn’t care about Babani and his life.
He just wanted his house and Babani could go after that. He was dispensible.
If you can’t see this for what it is – I am afraid you are more deluded than the
followers of Gurmeet who killed 32 people.
As for your comments on the scientific method – I am not even going to comment
“let me help enlighten you about the courage, risk and faith necessary to be a good scientist. It is not blind faith… etc”
Seriously?
It’s not faith at all! You can say whatever you want and make it fit.
Science does not require faith.

In Star Trek – The Final Frontier – A skeptical Kirk inquires, “What does God need with a starship? (Insert “land” where Starship is – get my drift?
This is all hiliarious – money and land have been fought over by men since time immorial. Nothing new under the sun here – God or no God.
Have a great day folks😀

Rs sceptic aka williams

Dear Pema,
the links I have posted contain quite a lot of info.
The inhabitants paid the full market value, not just a deposit.
When dera wanted them back they offered the same price paid, not the new market value.
The dera was entitled to buy them back at any time, however the inhabitants did not realise they would actually exercise this option.
This was a standard term put into the contract, which nobody expected would ever be exercised. So the buyers just ignore it as they are so happy to be in the
RSSB centre.
It becomes a point of law if it can be shown to be an unfair restriction and therefore unenforceable. That would be the basis of a legal case.

RS Sceptic
Your conclusions are not supported by the meager and slanted references you site.
And that is simply because the authors have constructed their presentation of information only to their own case.
No judge renders a verdict with only the testimony of one side.
Please do your homework.

To all those who still believe RSSB is a spiritual organisation and is honest.
This is an extract from what I posted above but most of you never read, So I have extracted some of it – so you might actually read it.
I have bolded the relevant parts
It is about the babani incident
“You can’t sell your flat”.
‘The flat belongs to us, you are not Owners of the flat, you are only Occupants. The price you paid for the flat was not the purchase price but was to be treated as a deposit.”
The Satsangi owners were in disbelief. The found themselves in a strange predicament unheard of among flat owners in Bombay. They spoke to the Bombay Secretary, the Builder. Two of his blood brothers (not just satsangi brothers), had bought flats.
From family sources, I learnt that the Secretary discussed the situation with Maharaj Ji (Charan Singh). He told Maharaj Ji, “When the Satsangi had bought the flats, it was not so that they were to be Occupants and the purchase price was to be a Deposit.”
Maharaj Ji was unmoved.
(It did not matter that the Satsangi owners felt misled or misinformed and their equity (life savings) in a flat in Bombay was at stake. Or even that the devoted Satsangis, dependent for protection of their worldly as well as spiritual well-being on their Guru, could have made an honest mistake.)
‘No.”, Maharaj Ji said, “The Dera model must be followed. The Dera owns the property.”
The Secretary wilted, he could not stand up to Maharaj Ji. (He could not go against the RS teaching, the obedience to the Guru is paramount.)
A family member recalled to me last year. The Secretary came back from the meeting with Maharaj Ji and told his brother Satsangi owners, “Donate your flat to the Dera, you will get 10 times in return”.
The flat owners did not agree. It was a question of their life savings. One of the ladies of the family recalled the event and commented, “Donation is by choice, it is not forced”. Another lady said, “We were a large family, we saved with great difficulty to buy the flat.” One said, “It was not the Secretary who was being skinned”.
Instead, the Satsangi owners banded together and hired a lawyer.
The extended family of the Secretary was split. “Why had the brothers living in the flats disobeyed Maharaj Ji”. The brothers no longer had good relationships. This attitude even extended to their children, the cousins-one set looking down upon the other. Even in 2001 when I met some of them, there was alienation.

The Dera threatened one of the Owners who also had a house at the Dera, “Withdraw your suit or we will take away your Dera house”.
The suit was not withdrawn. The Dera house was forcibly taken away.
The Dera then started other intimidation tactics. A board was erected in front of the property saying that it belonged to the Dera and no one could engage in buying or selling the flats.
(my comment – is this how a spiritual organisation behaves? Making threats?
Wake Up – one initiated and Spencer – this is a greedy organisation and so are
the gurus. There is no compassion even in the gurus.
anyone who still believes after this is seriously deluded
and I can guarantee if this incident happened to you – you would not remain
a believer. It’s easy to write it off as “It was karma” when it is someone else)

A Bombay RSSB committee member was chosen to front litigation. As a family member recalled, He told Baba Ji, “I am a Bombay flat owner…I know they have rights, how can I be a party to the case”.
“Do it,” Baba Ji said, “I am behind you”.
He submitted that and complied.
The paralyzed brother had died. Fortunately, his children had prospered in their business and constructed a house elsewhere.
The Dera then started tackling each owner separately. They persuaded the wealthy family to give up their double flat now worth nearly seventy times the original price, and promised them a flat at the Dera. The family did not want any more hassles and were wealthy enough to afford to donate it. The other owners pleaded with them, “You will break our band, and weaken our litigation, don’t settle”. They decided otherwise.
The other brother was forced to will his flat to the Dera.
The remaining owners until last month were still in litigation. Dera is trying other settlement tactics with them.

Last year, I asked a Bombay RSSB Committee member what he thought of the Sawan Sadan Satsangi flats case.
“Dera is wrong there”.
‘Then what did you do about it”.
“I expressed this opinion at a Board meeting.”
“That’s all”.

Silence ensued.
The old Bombay Secretary [Mr. Babani-my insert], a giant of man in business and organization skills and a famous Satsang orator, an RSSB pillar, known to many Westerners who attended Maharaj Ji’s programs in Bombay and saw him on Foreign tours, died last year, a mentally weakened man.
His son said he had Alzheimers but I found that while his recall was not good, some of his remarks were very intelligent.

He (BABANI) was kept away from the ordinary Satsangis because he spoke things about RSSB, the management did not want ordinary Satsangis to hear. He had become critical of the RSSB.
He told me, “Now, Dera is making a fool of me. I will show them”.
I said, “I have left the Institution, you can do the same”.
“No”, he said, “it was easy for you, it is very difficult for me”.

A few weeks before he died, I had visited him and taught him the Happy Buddha Qi Gong movement, which he enjoyed practicing very much.

Some time before he died, a Dera Lawyer come and got an affidavit from him to say that he never announced in Satsang (40 years ago) that the Sawan Sadan flats were for sale. The lawyer then took the piece of paper to the brother living in one of the flats and said, “Look, you have no case”. [my insert-I was informed this was not the only false affidavit that Gurinder extracted from Mr. Babini later on his deathbed].
(my comment – This is corruption and lies and deceit for the sake of money
Babani had announced in satsang that the flats were available for purchase. Now Dera got a false affidavit stating he had not announced this at all.
Is this some spiritual matter? No – it is lies and deceit.
If a disciple carried on this kind of behaviour in his life – he would be called
corrupt. So why is it okay for the guru to do it?
Is it because he is god in human form and therefore everything is okay?
in which case, rape is okay too – release Gurmeet Ram Raheem singh

RS Sceptic
Please provide the author and a link to support your claim this is an accurate accounting.
You wrote
““Withdraw your suit or we will take away your Dera house”.
Please provide documentation of this.
Where has Babani published his own witness to this account?
A law suit… Please a copy of it.
Anything to prove this is not a fabrication, using the name of a well known Satsangi. One who never wrote anything of this in any recorded document or letter.
The entire article of “waking now” has no corroboration.
Sceptic, you are quick to paste this narrative repeatedly, and the story of victimization is laid out in some detail.
But now I’m the Sceptic.
Is it fiction?
That you have not disproven.
Please do your homework.
It’s called “independent corroborating evidence.”
Lacking that, it’s gossip. And if there is no account from legal records, it’s just slander.

Dear Spencer,
Really?
are you that deluded?
As soon as you see any evidence against what you believe,
you want all the T’s crossed and the “I”s dotted.
You claim it is all lies.
Yet – everything you believe has no evidence at all.
If RSSB print it in a book, it must therefore be true.
Do you ask RSSB for evidence?
Do you have any evidence that Jaimal was the successor to Swami?
All the evidence points to the truth that he was self appointed.
Swami does not mention his name even once. Does that not concern you
if you truly wanted the facts?
Did you ask RSSB for evidence?
No. They printed it and you took it as gospel truth.
Just as Kirpal claimed that sawan authorised him and transferred the
power through the eyes and his followers believe his account
no evidence – just his statement.
You are no different and all RSSB followers are just brainwashed.
They sit meditating and if by chance they see a little light they take that
as evidence that their guru must be a true master.
Or if their mind creates an image of the guru they claim inner darshan.
So you want me to prove the account is not fiction?
While you go on believing the fiction written in RSSB books.
Wake up.
The real RSSB history has not been revealed.
In the old days, people were naive and information was not so freely
available, but now it’s easy to find what really happened.
What makes you think the Babani incident is a fabrication?
It all stacks up.
There is no reason for Babani to lie – he would love it if this was not true.
Sadly it is true and that is why he died a broken man.
How come Guru Gurinder did not help him?
Shower him with grace?
alleviate his problems and take his soul up?
After all, you will rarely find a more deserving candidate.
I challenge you or anyone to do even a fraction of what he did for RSSB.
Obviously Charan valued him to take him on the world tours and to quthorise
his tapes while stopping all others.
If this is the reward you get after a lifetime of service and meditation,
this is proof enough that RSSB is a bullshit path.
Can you give any evidence at all that this account is not true?
NO, I thought so.
It looks like a pretty reliable account to me, as there is no reason to doubt it.
It is well known that Babani was depressed and died a broken man.
it is also known it was due to the flat and what he saw of Gurinder.
The details don’t change the fact that this happened.
Everything in RSSB is falling apart
Swami Ji was not a successor to Tulsi – instead he went to Girdhari and after even he did not appoint him – he decided to appoint himself a year after his death.
Jaimal was clearly not a successor to Swami. For many years he was just a
representative, giving initiation on behalf of the agra group gurus.
only 13 years later he set up without any authority.
A far cry from the RSSB lies that he meditated for 13 years
Sawan had many successors. He also had close associations with agra group.
Charan was shocked when he was appointed and make it 100% clear
that he has no inner progress at all.
Well then, how can he be a master if he has no inner progress?
And he made it 100% clear that he was no just being humble by printing
the actual diary entry in his personal diary.
Gurinder is just a businessman who is lining his own pockets using his posistion
which is why his sons are billionaires without earning it.
The Babani incident is the final nail in the coffin.
why anyone would still believe and follow this after all this evidence is beyond me.
inner experiences are also no proof.
all the different Radha swami groups cannot even agree on the regions and their names and their order.
makes a mockery of it all.
so, Spencer,
Please do your homework.
It’s called “independent corroborating evidence.”
take your own medicine or stay deluded all your life
It’s nothing personal to you, it applies to everyone to follows RSSB.
If course everyone chooses their own path
to everyone who examines it clearly RSSB is just another religion
and a mediocre one at that

One more cautionary point Sceptic.
If a person can be duped into loving someone who is less than honorable.
They can be duped into hating an innocent person.
You can be a victim under both circumstances.
And if you are the one proselytizing in either way, then you are not a victim, but a perpetrator.
The answer is the same. Discrimination. Where is the corroborating evidence which I may verify for myself? …. Prove this isn’t your, or someone else’s fiction you promote to support a form of bigotry.

To all believers and Spencer and Jim and one-initiated
As far as I can see there is absolutely no proof or evidence that swami Ji
was in fact the successor to Tulsi Sahib of Hathras.
Since you, Spencer, seem to require proof and documentation for everything
can I ask you to supply any documentation of evidence at all about Swami Ji’s
legitimacy?
I am sure you don’t have any at all.
Yet you believe he was authentic.
Indeed, if he isn’t then the whole RSSB line falls flat on it’s face
because if Swami is not legit, then the others are all fake too.
at least that is the argument you made about Gurmeet Rahim
Swami was self appointed.
The same applies to Jaimal Singh
He too was self appointed.
If those two were not legit then the rest doesn’t matter.
After Sawan, I dont believe any wills etc anyway because from then on there was far too much land property and wealth at stake that corruption was almost certain.
After all, if the gurus can do all this to a devoted follower like Babani just to grab his flat, how much more can they do to acquire the dera land and property.
Charan appears to be the only guru who had some moral standards and would not use his position as guru to line his pockets.
He also told the honest truth that he had no spiritual progress.
Gurinder doesn’t really care about any moral standards, just so long as his sons become billionaires, he is quite happy.
and what a ploy
And what evidence is there that repeating these five so called holy names
is some kind of profound meditation that will take you to Sach Khand.
Just simple words.
Jot Niranjan
Omkar
Rarankar
Sohang
Sat Naam
there – you don’t need initiation anymore
and the secret is out
why all the fuss over five ordinary words that are useless
meditation on those words will not get you anywhere

Dear RS Sceptic:
I appreciate your passion on this subject. However, you are missing two major points.
1. If you wish to prove something to someone else, you need reliable evidence from multiple sources.
That is the criteria you are using to discredit beliefs you don’t hold.
What I’m doing is quite different.
I for one am not trying to prove anything to anyone. I only witness to my own experience, and that proof is only for me. It may prove as anecdotal evidence in someone else’s quest for truth where their OWN EXPERIENCE must weigh as the final arbitor.
You may not be the best judge of your own experience, but ultimately, you are the only judge for your life. That responsibility cannot actually be given to anyone else. Nor should it rest on heresay.
2. The evidence, Sceptic, which you are presenting isn’t your direct experience. What you have offered Sceptic, is third hand, fourth hand evidence at best. It’s like trying to argue for the accuracy of the Bible. It’s impossible to do it without relying on blind faith at some point. Because this isn’t your witness. It isn’t even multiple witnesses and verifiable testimony with some hard factual evidence.
You have the opportunity to get evidence to back your claims. I’m not trying to discredit what you are saying. I’m asking you to act according to your own standard which you have set for others.
But you have not been able to prove the narratives you cite are not simply fictional accounts to flatter the angers of their writers.
That doesn’t mean they are wrong. It means they have no utility. They are a car with no wheels.
They might be wrong. And if they are fictional, they are slanderous.
Why would you promote slander?
So, rather than think like that I simply ask you to support your claims with evidence, first hand evidence if you have it.
As I have done. But again, my only claim is “works for me”.

dear Spencer
I am not convincing anyone to hate any RSSB guru or the organisation.
I am simply supplying evidence that things are not as they seem.
RSSB and it’s gurus are not quite as honourable and squeaky clean as some
people seem to think.
As soon as this incident about Gurmeet Rahim comes to light, the RSSB
believers think “another fake guru bites the dust”
but they think their own guru is invincible because he is the real deal and has
the highest standards.
However this is not the case. Obviously I don’t think Gurinder would rape anyone, however he certainly has no problems in getting Babani to will his flat over to RSSB, by using the influence of being the guru.
I mean it’s a bit extreme to ask him to will the flat to RSSB before he can see Gurinder Guru. It’s preying on his belief.
Babani would have been better off just walking away once he realized it was all about the flat.

The RSSB teachings say that the guru does not take even a needle (or something like that) from the disciple and that if a guru does take, then he is not a true guru.
so then let me ask
if it was proven to be true about the Babani flat and everything I just pasted above, how many of you believers like spencer, jim, OI and others would then admit that Gurinder is most likely not a perfect master.
Or would you then find some excuse like
It was Babani’s fate
or
he is working out Babani’s karma because he was such a devoted disciple
the master wants to clear all his karma through the flat.
after all those are the kind of stories that RSSB is full of.

Dear RS Sceptic:
You wrote;
“if it was proven to be true about the Babani flat and everything I just pasted above, how many of you believers like spencer, jim, OI and others would then admit that Gurinder is most likely not a perfect master.
Or would you then find some excuse like
It was Babani’s fate”
Sceptic, I think the parallel question must be asked. If you fail to provide actual proof, verifiable proof, will you be able to let go of your need to acuse and slander?
I for one am most happy to review any real evidence you have, and to carefully tease out fact from fiction.
So why not put accusation aside for the time being?
Do your homework. If this is important to you, and you wish it to be important to us, do the investigative work.
Otherwise it remains in the realm of rumor, and promoting that rumor you place yourself in the role of slanderer. Even the narrative is not slander. It’s just a story. But it becomes slander when someone promotes it as truth.
Use the same standard for Truth that you are applying to Sant Mat. Apply it to yourself and this narrative first and foremost.
If we can agree to the terms of truth, then we are both bound by its outcomes.

To RS Skeptic, since you keep mentioning my name with others, you must be baiting a response. This certainly would not be our first Rodeo together, as I have known you as Willams, ZAKK, Frank, a Homeless Bum living under a bridge, a Coin Collector and Stock Broker, and god only knows the other pseudo Avatars you have used to try and lead innocent seekers, as well as seasoned Satsangis off the Path of Sant Mat.
You can’t ever take away what I have, because you never had it to begin with. You are obviously still bound to the Wheel of 84 , which Gurinder Singh says even initiated Exers like you who don’t meditate and have left the Path, can return to, in lower species than the Gift of the human body you now have.
For me, it makes no difference at all, whether Gurinder Singh is a PLM, or who was, or is appointed to be PLMs.
But I do know, that Christ lives in me, the Hope of Glory, and is the same Christ that lived in the Master Jesus, and every other Living Master of each time in ever era since the Dawn of Creation.
My Salvation was secure, before I ever heard of Sant Mat, or Radhasoami.
You should be so fortunate. You might sleep better at night, if you quit harassing members of the Marked Elect and their Masters.
In case you forgot how you became a human, and are so anxious to Transmigrate back to your roots, here is a reminder of your options.
THE WHEEL OF 84
The Journey of the SoulThe Vedas explain that the soul, known as the atma, may inhabit any of 8,400,000 general species of material bodies. The physical forms vary in complexity, beginning with the primitive microbes and amoebas, continuing on through the aquatic, plant, insect, reptile, bird, and animal species, and culminating in human beings and demigods.
In consequence of its own desires to enjoy matter, the atma continually journeys through these various bodies, on an endless voyage of births and deaths. The action of the mind is the prime force compelling the living entity to transmigrate from one body to another. The Gita explains, “Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state of being he will attain without fail.”
Our minds are constantly recording all of our thoughts and desires, and the totality of these memories floods our consciousness in the last moments of life. The nature of our thoughts at this critical juncture propels us into the appropriate physical body.
Thus the body we now occupy is an accurate physical projection of our state of mind at the time of our last death.The Bhagavad-gita explains, “The living entity, thus taking another gross body, obtains a certain type of eye, ear, tongue, nose, and sense of touch, which are grouped around the mind. He thus enjoys a particular set of sense objects.”
According to the Vedas, a soul in a form lower than human automatically evolves to the next-higher species, ultimately arriving at the human form. But because the human being possesses freedom to choose between matter and spirit, there is a chance that the soul will descend again into the lower species.
The laws of karma are so arranged that if a human lives and dies with the animalistic mentality of a creature such as a dog, then in the next life he will be able to fulfill his doglike desires through the senses and organs of a dog. This is certainly an unfortunate occurrence, but such a fate is a definate possibility for a person immersed in ignorance. The Gita declares, “When he dies in the mode of ignorance, he takes birth in the animal kingdom.”So the soul in the body of an animal may once have inhabited a human form and vice versa.
Although a soul may successively occupy plant, animal, and human bodies, its intrinsic nature remains the same. Because the soul is pure spiritual energy, it cannot be altered in any way by matter. Bhagavad-gita explains that the soul is “immutable and unchangeable.” It is only the bodily covering, with its particular combination of mind and senses, that temporarily restricts or releases the conscious energy of the soul.
We have been blessed to have been given the Gift of a Human body, this incarnation!” Use it, or loose it, as an old saying goes!”

Dear Spencer,
you are unable to answer the question.
I am not slandering anyone. I am simply pasting information freely available on the net.
I actually do not know if it is true and I don’t care.
The fact that it is there means it is quite possibly true.
I have no desire or need to slander anyone.
I really don’t care and am indifferent to the truth of it.
It does not affect me.
I do not know if anyone can provide real proof.
If you can prove or disprove it, go ahead.
The nephew could state his case, but you could accuse him of lying.
The flat owners could even win a case against RSSB
and you would say it is a mis-carriage of justice.
Gurmeet Rahim has been convicted and sentenced to 20 years prison.
His disciples will swear he has been framed by the drugs mafia.
It cannot even be proven that he is guilty
just because he has been convicted is not proof of his guilt.
it only means he has been found guilty. could be a mistake.
plenty of mistakes are made in the legal syste every day.
innocent people are behind bars and guilty people are set free.
So I could not possibly and nor could anyone else prove the events of
the sawan sadan flats and Babani.
People will believe what they want despite all the evidence.
I just asked that if you knew it was true, would that of, and in itself
be proof that gurinder is not what be claims to be?
I am just asking what your position would then be.
And if this incident happened to you personally – then what would your view be?
Most likely RSSB had it written in the contracts that they can
buy back at any time and pay the original price. So legally they might be right.
its just that the people who bought would not think this would happen
even if it is written.
I am just arguing the moral position here.

Dear RS Sceptic.
If you are not going to provide any corroborative testimony or evidence, why bring up a narrative that depicts wrong doing on someone’s part? And which names them as the instigator of that wrong doing?
From a moral perspective, I don’t think that is right.
I realize this is what Donald Trump does. But while he gets a lot of air time, it’s wrong.
Never a good idea to slander someone’s name.
And then to claim that doesn’t matter?
It does matter, RS Sceptic.
The Truth does matter, and it demands verification. Testability.
If you put out a document that is slanderous you become responsible for spreading rumors at least, and for verification of those claims at best.
You’re an adult? Well, that will come in time.
To then say “Well I don’t know if it’s true or not…” Is disingenuous. Don’t hide behind someone else’s skirt. When you grow up your colleagues will not tolerate it. You will need to stand upon your word.
You wouldn’t share this narrative unless you wanted others to consider that it might be true. And because it happens to support your beliefs, so far unproven.
But anything might be true, until evidence proves one way or the other.
Gurindar COULD be God in human form, for all you know.
We don’t mention it because it can’t be proven, and we don’t promote blind faith.
And you shouldn’t pass along rumors and slander if you don’t promote hate.
Try to keep up.

boy o boy, RS Sceptic…
you appears to be on a venting spree…
You believe what you believe. But why to fill your heart with so much hatred ?
Considering you think you have moved on and do not accept or believe RSSB as the True Path, why so much hatred ? You can sit back and enjoy life without RSSB and still be happy, can’t you ?
The anger and the hatred disrupts the functioning of the mind and provokes amygdala to over burden which invites unimaginable physical troubles in the longer run.
So brother, would you first like to tell me how come you are so much into RSSB ?
Were you once the follower and now hates it after reading the Babani’s text online ?
“Everything in RSSB is falling apart”
Really ?
He he … it was indeed funny. Honestly I laughed after reading this.
When did it start to happen ? 😀
You want to hear a truth instead ?
Everything in the world is falling apart and RSSB is going to play a major role in saving millions of the human lives. In the words of those who have seen it happening: “It’s going to be really dirty.”
I invite you to please bookmark this page and come back after a few decades if you’d be alive and you’d realize the intensity of these conversations.
“Gurinder is most likely not a perfect master”
Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj is THE Perfect Master and I have SEEN that with my real eyes in my full consciousness by HIS Ultra Grace.
(I can not tell you beyond that. I didn’t want to repeat that because it’s so nostalgic even for me, it must be for readers as well, but for the sake doing it again).
I am a living person telling you this first hand, do you have the audacity to accept this fact ?
Or you are also too much in anger, hatred and negativity like many others who without even knowing what’s going on in my life, my physical body and my spiritual practice, find themselves in a full judgmental position to call my own personal fully conscious experiences as delusions ? The big question to ask: who is deluded ?
And if you want more appropriate living accounts go and read the stuffs on this very Brian’s website from the authors like 777, Augustine & Jim etc. Or you would have amazing reason to call them lies ?
You know it’s very difficult. It’s so simple and easy to agree on the events and incidents of the people who have already left this plane… because there is no one to argue and just modify the facts the way you want and present it and perceive it the way you want, super easy.
Also more importantly, it’s so very easy to accept the Saints who have left this plane and the whole world in some form or other accept the foregone saints as Saints and worship them whole heartedly. However, it’s quite not easy to accept the Living Saint as the Supreme Lord or even to consider them Saint. And so rightly the case was when those Saints were alive, just read on every single Saint of the history and you will find in literally every single case there were uncountable beings who disagreed to the fact and disgraced them, called them names, abused them and even tortured them physically.
I have not seen anyone else ever on this forum to question the authenticity of Soami Ji Maharaj and HIS relation with Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj.
So, based on your questions, really every Saint that you’ve ever read of or heard of, doesn’t hold any proof for you, Sceptic.
Do you at all believe if there was ever a True Saint exist ?
Like from Jesus, Mohammad, Kabir, Nanak, Ravidas, Sarmad, Rumi, Shams – anyone else ?
If you do believe that even a single one of them was ever a True Living Master then what is your basis to agree on that fact ?
Even if someone tells their real experience, for you it’s just their delusion.
So, it really means you do not believe that there ever existed any True Master in the whole universe, precisely, there is not any such thing like a True Master and there is nothing like Spirituality.
And to me, I think the above notion itself is not that absurd. Because really what proof can anyone give to any other being about their experiences ? Talks are talks, but if you have that spark inside you, you might start believing some things which leads you to walk further.
So, if you are still wanting to proceed on your Spiritual Journey why don’t you start meditating with or without the Master… get yourself first hand experiences and resume the discussion yet again with everyone here ? Even if you are not, I am sure every single one would be more than happy to hear about your very own personal experiences.
God Bless You.
~OI

–
–
Hi All
Of course this is a marvellous occasion
for EXERS to
re start all discussions from the past
and try to judge
You can spend time for ever
All founders of any Truth method in history
had fake followers
This Path is very easy
Does it work
and do you hear the hyper sweet Anahabad Shabd ?
Are the real 5 words ( not the above ) reverberating in You
Is your Master with you at all moments ?
Did you realize you are not at all the body and lost fear to lose it ?
If not so far . . . are perhaps serendipities°° happening in your life
If not that, is there in you still some clear Ego problems
( Pls compare with Nanak’s
‘I’m the lowliest of the Lowly please )
I ask this not from followers or ex followers from other RS groups
and there are so many here.
And the real RSSB Exers :
GO IN, and you can ask about the above
ask Seth Shiv Dayal , Ask Nanak , Ask Buddha, Jesus
Yes You Can
Make yourself great again
Please remember ; Only LOVE does it
(remember Charan s beauty and what you felt
Yes One Initiated
Why would God not keep his Beas place clean and protect His Lovers against theworld
Even here in France I still feel the peace of that place
Yes : we have an effective efficient Guru
exactly what God needs 🙂
°° explained in many comments
777

Dear Spencer,
Let me repeat. I have no interest in slandering anyone.
I am a sceptic. That means I don’t believe the propaganda that anyone puts out to get followers.
So just because an RSSB book has something written in it – it does not mean it is true.
You ask me to provide testimony about the Babani story.
I am asking you to prove it is not true.
I have not slandered anyone. I have pasted documents that are freely available on the net and commented on it in the context of what has happened to this Gurmeet guru guy.
It is honest, not disingenuous to say I don’t know if it is true.
Of course I don’t know as I was not there.
You also don’t know if it is true as you was not there.
So we don’t know – but we have the record of someone who says it is true.
Why do you believe all the words you read in RSSB books?
They could be lies and untrue. How do you know?
Dear One-initiated,
You say that Gurinder Singh is THE Perfect Master based upon your inner experience.
What if some of Gurmeet Rahim’s disciples have inner visions of him?
Does that make him a perfect master also?
That disciple, like you, might say he knows he is a perfect master.
May I ask you how in your opinion the inner experience proves that gurinder is a perfect master?
If a high ranking disciple such as Babani who has been a firm believer all his life and had dedicated his whole life to RSSB, can end up depressed and in this state, surely that says a lot about RSSB.
How come Gurinder did not shower him with grace?
After all Babani did come voluntarily to see him.

Hi guys,
R S Sceptic is not “full of hatred”. He’s putting forward facts about the sometimes underhand practices used by RS Beas . The so called “smuggling” into the Dera under Charan’s rule also comes to mind.
777 says: “Why would God not keep his Beas place clean and protect His Lovers against the world”
These times certainly do seem quite apocalyptic and I see a common thread amongst the satsangis posting here of feeling so self-entitled and protected with their belief in God and the Sant Mat gurus and it really smacks so much more of ego, even though they preach about “love”.

…….
The so called “smuggling” into the Dera under Charan’s rule also comes to mind………
For a thousand of thousand of times these debates are the same for 20 and more years……and for you Mike Williams aka rs sceptic…i cannot believe you blow into same horn all over and over over over…

To OSHO and RS Skeptic: both you guys argue that all inner experiences are either desires of the mind, or hallucinations, or Chandian imaginary delusions.
From what I have read of your past comments, regarding inner experiences, Astral Projections, Near Death experiences, etc. neither of you, nor Brian Hines seem to believe that we even have souls, much less, Astral or Causal bodies. David Lane ( at least the Agnostic Who doesn’t Know Lane , that has retired) equally falls in to that same skeptical catagory, unless he has changed his mind regarding most of his Articles on the Internet.
I don’t understand why there still ANY skeptics still exist, considering the available millions of testimonoies on the Internet of all the people reporting their experiences.
It isn’t only a Spiritual philosophy, it is Metaphysical.
Here is yet, another recent experince I had a couple of years ago. ( Non-Spiritual)
I had a Colonoschaphy procedure, and was out of body, WATHCHING the Doctor and Anesthesiologist insert the camera wand and instruments up the bare Butt of my physical body while laying on a table in a fetal position.
I Actually felt the probe inside me, and felt the sharp pain when a couple of Palups were removed from my colon.
I was about 30 feet away, watching the entire procedure, and even saw both men looking at me, and most likely , they saw my Astral Form, hovering , but didn’t know it was me.
I don’t remember projecting out, or back in, but the entire procedure was as if I was the 4th person in the room watching the entire procedure in 3D Color. I even watched the Doctor wash the Wand and Probe off in a Stainless Steel sink after finishing the procedure.

RS Sceptic
You wrote
“Why do you believe all the words you read in RSSB books?”
Because unlike you I verified them for myself.
So please do your homework Sceptic and verify, corroborate, otherwise what you are doing is just gossip and slander.

I have copied and pasted information freely available on the net
I have stated that it is likely to be true otherwise why would it be written.
I have stated I do not know for sure if it is true.
And you believers go around shouting “slander, slander”
I have pasted other information from david lane and other researchers who say their research leads them to the possibility that Swami Ji was not an authentic successor to Tulsi Sahib.
Tulsi saheb was the family guru and he used to visit panni galli frequently.
Swami Ji was not his appointed successor – it was Girdhari. This is well documented.
Swami was close to Girdhari and respected him like a guru, which explains why he did not start his own mission until after he died.
Girdhari did not appoint Swami either. So Swami started on his own and does not mention his own guru for a very good reason – because he was not the appointed successor.
Which guru could he mention. Neither Tulsi nor Girdhari appointed him.
All you guys who claim to be able to ask the guru any questions and get the answers, by going inside. Why don’t get get the correct information about this.
And Spencer said about evidence regarding Babani, well go inside and ask directly from Charan.
777, you said it is easy to ask Shiv Dayal (Swami), well then go ahead and tell us what he says. And ask Charan and Gurinder about Sawan Sadan flats while you are there.
Jen is right. I don’t have any hatred. I am just asking some questions and the believers don’t like it that they don’t have answers.
If RSSB was innocent in the Babani incident then why don’t they come out and clarify exactly what happened, and put the rumours to bed.
Instead they always say “no personal questions please” at Q&A
Why?
What is wrong with personal questions? If everything is above board, what is the issue in asking a personal question.
In the past, gurus could say anything and nobody would ever know
with the advert of the internet, the cat soon comes out of the bag and causes havoc.

RS Sceptic
You wrote
“I have copied and pasted information freely available on the net”
You copied and pasted unverified accusations that name an individual as the culprit and another as the victim.
You have chosen to believe that narrative. Without doing your own investigation. That’s blind hate.
You have not verified any of it.
Publishing slanderous remarks, not as the basis to initiate real investigation, but as de facto truth is no different than blind faith.
Blind hate is not so differant than blind faith. Both are lazy and harmful.

RS Sceptic,
It’s fine being a sceptic, but why covert others?
Are you on a commission from the God of Scepticism?
Just sharing information and letting others do what they want with it is okay, but let the believers make up their own minds.
When someone has FAITH – that faith is based on something.
It can be based on books, personal accounts of others or on one’s own personal experience.
From these, the person makes a conclusion which becomes the basis of his faith.
For example I might know someone who has never told me a lie, so on that basis I will gain TRUST in that person.
What that really means is that I have a firm belief that the person will not lie to me.
It may or may not be true – but it appears to be true to me based on my experience of that person.
If something changes – for example I catch the person telling me a lie – I will revise my conclusion and my trust in that person will disappear.
Some of the people who had faith in Gurmeet Rahim will now lose that faith based on the new evidence.
Others will continue to believe in him and say the evidence against him is fabricated and that he could not possibly rape anyone.
People will believe what they want to believe.
Usually it takes something radical to change a firm belief.
For example if YOU was the rape victim, that would be pretty radical, and your belief would change instantly.
Even then, you could JUSTIFY and find a way to make it fit so that your belief remains.
Humans are strange characters.
When you, RS Sceptic read an account like the Kishen Babani controversy, you will take it to be true. After all, why would it not be true?
When a believer hears the story, something different happens.
His faith is on the line. Immediately he suspects foul play. In his mind, it cannot be true. It is impossible. Or if it IS true, then there is MORE to the story that justifies the action that GSD and Charan took.
After all, they KNOW (believe) that Gurinder and Charan Singh are perfect masters and cannot do anything “Wrong”.
If they did take the flats, there must have been a good reason – it was JUSTIFIED.
So let’s assume, just for a moment, that the story as reported is accurate. So what? The Dera was just protecting its’ property and cannot possibly allow just anyone to reside in the Dera as that would cause havoc.
This seems perfectly reasonable.
Perhaps not to Babani, but then perhaps something happened to Babani and he lost his faith in Sant Mat or his karmas got in the way.
Maybe this was the Master’s way of clearing up his karma so he does not return to this world.
The person who believes will continue to believe.
And what is wrong with that anyway?
Alice (in wonderland) says she believes in ten impossible things before breakfast. And that is just before breakfast, obviously it will be hundreds by the end of the day.
We are all like Alice. True or not true doesn’t matter.
If it APPEARS to be true to ME – then as far as I am concerned it IS true.
That is just how our mind works.
Why try to convince anyone of anything?
RS Sceptic, Why try to convince others and make them into sceptics? Are you lonely? Do you need a world full of sceptics?
Enjoy your own scepticism and let others enjoy their beliefs.
Variety makes an interesting world.
There are no bonus points for converting others to your own view of life.
And your own view – is just that – your VIEW – not the truth.
Sure, you are CONVINCED it is true – but so what? That does not make it true. It just makes it your conviction.

jim wrote:
“I don’t understand why there still ANY skeptics still exist, considering the available millions of testimonoies on the Internet of all the people reporting their experiences.
It isn’t only a Spiritual philosophy, it is Metaphysical.”
See my comment to RS Sceptic.
There will always be believers and sceptics.
I don’t really consider myself a sceptic.
I am simply saying that an inner experience is not objective proof.
It is personal proof – sufficient for the individual if he chooses to accept it.

“””” May I ask you how in your opinion the inner experience proves that Gurinder is a perfect master? “”””
THAT is the beauty of this system : You cannot give proof
You cannot lay your finger on Love
But the disciple concerned , apart from hearing the accumulated Sounds experiences also within and without meditations, fascinating
levels of sweet pleasure we can only compare with endless orgasmes but only above our eyes
Roaring turbulences of Love and S/He knows for so sure that SHe is Herself the Shabd undestructive, invulnerable, giant Bliss which ever grows
You are really The Master Himself at such moments – Yes everything is cyclic
but when You are out of it the ” rememberence ” , a very insufficient word , stays with you
Very well to compare with your best worldly crush of first love
you are filled 24/7 , . . almost cannot eat cannot sleep
cannot explain ( like me here )
and imaging
sitting in the Cinema f.i. . . the 5 words enhances all those feels also at will at any moment
One can perfectly understand that some martyrs didn’t bother at all what happened around and with their bodies
You might perhaps have an idea where, -apart from radiant forms of many satgurus within
it(s difficult to spread around that surity, you ask for
Next there are the serendipities also ever growing in impossibility and frequency as if God with His Giant humour changes the whole creation for just one disciple
And He is right, . . . He is enjoying Him/Herself as much as possible
mixed with endless prudence , always caring for You, no molecule is where it not should be
And all I write here is just the beginning
We see how Compassion is the root of this all
It’s by Empathy without second thoughts that we were attracted to this Path
I can continue for days , lifes even trying to tell the surity
and yes ; It’s always subjective
If it’s given to read between the words , you might become aware
Jap Ji gives a perfect description of all this
We can have all that . . and you don’t need to be a perfect person
I’m not, . . never was . . . ; read my comments
remember
Why there are so many fake gurus ?
Because there are so many fake seekers
So try to find out what you really want
Dr. Phil :
Do You Want to be right or You want to be HAPPY
WOW
and I’m 80 , so much to come
777
–
ps
You don’t know what karmas Babani yet had – Now He is happy

Sceptic,
Please read the below comment with a calmer state of mind, then only you’d be able to comprehend it correctly and be able to respond appropriately.
It’s visible that you have a highly entangled mesh of non co-related points in your head.
You really have no point – you are just blatantly mentioning one thing or the other over and over again posing varying names.
Also, you didn’t answer me whether you think there is / was any True Master ever existed on earth ? If yes, what proof you have for them to be considered as True Master.
If you’d think that Soami Ji Maharaj were not the True Master all your lateral questions / doubts automatically invalidated… because you can simply consider them as a normal worldly proceedings.
For example, for me this information of conviction of gurmeet singh is almost insignificant, it’s just same as for any other criminal once disguised as anyone else in the society, since for me mastana balochistani was never a true master.
I don’t think the way you are trying to put up the things making any sense. It’s all looking like a non-sensical jargon which has been over stretched by you over and over again.
Are you understanding the point I am try to make ?

–
–
So nice
At the end we all agree,
even Osho
Of course : there is no other universe than your Own !
So nice
Just change it in Heaven
777
–

Wow, Osho & 777,
I would say these both were the amazing comments. thanks to both of your for sharing your views.
So Sceptic,
I am sure all your questions from logical perspective must end with Osho’s comment.
and if the spiritual perspective is concerned, there could not be a better comment than what 777 has posted.

To Rakesh,
I googled but right now I could not find the book/text available from Agra related to the biography of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj, but I am sure I read it online somewhere quite a while ago. I will keep looking for that or will search my own archives and upload it somewhere if I will find that.
Nevertheless I found this book written by Sant Kripal Singh – and I have read this one as well – this is also very close to the the biography of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj, it contains various phases of HIS Life which also includes the meetings of Jaimal Singh Ji and Soami Ji, Jaimal Ji’s time spent in HIS Job and the childhood struggle of finding the True Master – overall it’s a very interesting read for the ones who are searching it.
here is the link: http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/pdf/Baba%20Jaimal%20Singh%20-%20Kirpal%20Singh.pdf
I will keep you posted once I have update on the other book I was mentioning.
Love to you.

To OSHO: Credibility is also an indicator of the truth of either subjective or objective inner experiences. Frauds charging money or selling books might hype or fabricate their experiences, but I have never tried to sell my self or experiences to Spiritual Seekers.
I like what you posted. No poison. Sugar coated Oneness is better than Spiritual skepticism.
I don’t lie about my experiences I decide to share. I may misunderstand how they manifest, and am not able to adequately explain them, but I don’t lie and fabricate fictional stories about such things.
I really don’t have my dog in the race, so to speak.
I don’t really care who believes or disbelieves that the Moon completely covered the Sun blocking its light, a week ago from one end of the Western U.S. thru the Eastern U.S.
But it did. That proof was videoed for all skeptics to see.
Maybe that proves Spirituality is becoming dark in the West.
Maybe Technology will eventually come out with a Go-Pro 3rd Eye Recorder that we can strap on our foreheads during meditation and dreaming, and record our inner experiences!
If I would have had one during my Colonoschophy Procedure, and videoed it, or vidioed my hoovering Astral body looking at us from 30 feet away, even R.S. Skeptic would become a Believer. 😇
When R.S. Skeptic used to post all of his past Guru and initiations in Lane’s forum a dozen years or so ago, as ZAKK, ….he used to be quite entertaining and had quite a following.
But unlike me, who has mellowed with old age, ZAKK seems to be getting meaner and more cantankerous, especially against RSSB.
He used to single out Rhuhani Kirpalis more, but there doesn’t seem to be many Kirpalis here in Brian’s Church, so he keeps RSSB and Babaji in his Cross Hairs.

One more article on Babas:
https://matheikal.blogspot.com.es/2017/08/babas-and-their-babes.html

Dear Osho
You wrote
“I am simply saying that an inner experience is not objective proof.
It is personal proof – sufficient for the individual if he chooses to accept it.”
On this we both agree.
Since we all live a personal life, and our own state of well being is the only home we will ever live in, and all things we learn passes through and into this home, naturally it is worth considering seriously. In that home there are miracles and wonder, if we keep it clean, and a place always there for a Guest.
Miracles, not in the supernatural sense, but in the sense of magnificent wonder, scope and beauty.
Joy makes us believers.

Hi Jen
You wrote
“These times certainly do seem quite apocalyptic and I see a common thread amongst the satsangis posting here of feeling so self-entitled and protected with their belief in God and the Sant Mat gurus and it really smacks so much more of ego, even though they preach about “love”.’
I think it takes a lot of nerve to publish unverified accusations and claim they are’ fact ‘. It’ s not the golden rule, Jen.
Pasting accusations and claiming no responsibility for verification is indulging in slander. That is slander. Nothing wrong with personally investigating and bringing forth first hand witness or documentation from reliable sources, and corroboration from multiple verifiable sources.
But who here seems interested in that?
The Babani narrative is fiction until proven otherwise. Because people are innocent until proven guilty. That’s our ethic.

Wow, interesting comments. Confusing but I must say entertaining!
777 in his rambling mystical style: “You are really The Master Himself at such moments”
…
“as if God with His Giant humour changes the whole creation for just one disciple”
…
“Of course : there is no other universe than your Own !”
…
Must be great fun enjoying all this inner bliss but there is a maybe. Maybe its some kind of hallucination that strong beliefs can influence the brain to manifest.
Spencer says: “Miracles, not in the supernatural sense, but in the sense of magnificent wonder, scope and beauty.
Joy makes us believers.”
Seems like the law of attraction … the ability to attract into our lives whatever we are focusing on … but is it real?

Dear Osho Robbins,
Thank you for your posting.
If only I was on a commission
Actually I am not trying to convert anyone although I can see how it might appear that way.
I just don’t get it how people are so gullible. They cannot see how corrupt and greedy RSSB has become.
In my opinion, Babani was a sincere satsangi and also very well versed in the teachings, and extremely devoted.
It would have taken something really big to shake his faith, otherwise he was the type of follower who would never go against RSSB.
I understand what you are saying about the reason for faith. However, it’s not the truth. RSSB tells it’s followers to get inner experience and not rely on faith, but I think most of the followers only have faith.
Dear One Initiated,
No I don’t believe there is any such thing as a perfect master. There are people right now who claim to be Jesus, but it doesn’t mean it is true.
There are lots of deluded people around who make great claims.
Mastana was considered a very devoted disciple of sawan in sawan’s time. Don’t think you can just write him off as a fake.

Dear Sceptic,
Sure, Mastana and Kripal Singh must have been on quite spiritually advanced states.
I never said Mastana or Kripal Singh were fake, I said The Great Master did not authorise them to be the master and that’s my belief but some advanced disciples have seen this that they were not authorised. You might have a different opinion.
However, these terms Sadhu, Sant and Sant Satguru have different meanings.
You can go through Dr. John Davidson’s treasury of mystic terms for better and deeper explanations.

Must be great fun enjoying all this inner bliss but there is a maybe. Maybe its some kind of hallucination that strong beliefs can influence the brain to manifest.
My mystical understanding is very limited… ok, near non-existent. But wading in anyway, I’ve read that nothing external is real. It’s illusion, Mithra — a word from the Vedic tradition. Only your experience of the external is authentic. (corrections from mystics welcome!)
So your enjoyment of the ice cream cone is what’s real; the cone itself isn’t. You may see it, touch it, savor it. A thousand people may tell you the cone is real. But like an intoxicating dream, when you’ve awakened to a higher reality, the cone is gone, the dream companions are gone too. All that’s left is your experience and memory of something that never was.
So, if you derive bliss from a transcendent experience, what’s the harm? As long as you don’t disturb the peace, dupe innocents, support Trump, and still dutifully pay taxes, it’s benign. You may even save yourself from Prozac, start eschewing the latest garbage TV, laugh more… .
By the way a true mystic is the first say, “Sure, it could be a hallucination. But it makes me happy 24×7. Try it if you like and, if it doesn’t work for you, drop it like glass from the hand. Look for your own bliss”.

Here we are commenting on a thread about a guru who was found guilty of rape which resulted in his followers rampaging and attacking and killing people and what are the satsangis discussing? How wonderful and blissful life is, especially when being so enlightened and feeling so very special because they have been initiated by a supreme guru. So just have fun … be happy. Happy and blissful here in La La Land …

Kindly see the work of Baba Faqir Chand , who taught surat shabda yoga or consciously controlled near death experience. When David Lane met Baba Faqir Chand , he honestly replied the miracles attributed to me by disciples are due to purity of mind of disciple. My radiant form manifests to devotees due to their purity of mind. David Lane has termed it ” Chandian Effect ”

Kindly see the books authored by Baba Faqir Chand , freely available on Manvta Mandir Hoshiarpur website.He died in Pittsburgh , Pennsylvania. He candidly explained when mind is withdrawn from sense objects , the energy of mind manifests as divine light or divine effulgence. This is called Noor / Divine light / Heavenly light by various mystics. Jesus said ” if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.”?
Baba Faqir Chand has said ” knowledge is true guru / your mind is the true guru ” Gurudom is exploiting the gullible people and taking advantage from their seeking.

Dear Dungeness:
You wrote:
‘So, if you derive bliss from a transcendent experience, what’s the harm? As long as you don’t disturb the peace, dupe innocents, support Trump, and still dutifully pay taxes, it’s benign. You may even save yourself from Prozac, start eschewing the latest garbage TV, laugh more… .
By the way a true mystic is the first say, “Sure, it could be a hallucination. But it makes me happy 24×7. Try it if you like and, if it doesn’t work for you, drop it like glass from the hand. Look for your own bliss”.’
Dungeness, I Agree 100%. Our internal state of well being is the only state we have ever lived in, the only home we will ever know. The care of that place is our first priority. And no one else but us carries the responsibility to keep that place clean and wonderfully happy.
And secondly, look around you. All the great things of our civilization, technology, human rights, medicine, society itself, entertainment, literature, all of it comes out of human conception, and imagination..the ability to see and model in one’s own mind; the ability to move from emotion to inspiration, or vice versa; from a moment’s inspiration to a wonderful act of creation that benefits and brings joy to so many others; all that comes from within and nowhere else. That human mind, inside, internal imaging, design, calculation, and mental creation, has re-made our world and given us every wonderful thing of human thought and human achievement. One thing is certain. No great accomplishment has ever taken place without the ability to have a very clear vision, a picture, within, of the goal. “just imagination” ….That may be the only thing of value human beings have.
What hard evidence there is, from research from Harvard, Yale, and others, over several decades, about spiritual practices of meditation proves that the long term effects of Meditation, specifically meditation focused on image or word, or repetition, especially with love and devotion, and at least singular focus, yields many, many significant health benefits.
From increasing brain density and mass (normally the brain thins over time), to changing our DNA, to healing our anxieties, these practices as a group, that also bring just joy and bliss, if only a little effort is applied each day, are extremely healthy. And new research shows meditation helps eliminate distracting mental thoughts, essentially allowing the mind to perceive the senses, and reality, more directly.
Inner joy is reflected in physical and mental well being through the short term and more so the long term practice of meditation.
So if, in love with my Master, I can raise the bar on myself and do more for those around me, if my wealth is within and so can never be threatened by anyone, or anything, I am free to risk everything to help others also.
There is great nobility, great potential in devotion to the right thing.
And just because there are false copies, they are just photocopies. Where you find so many false copies, know that an original must be there.
To see the false gurus, is inspiring. Because for every thousand photocopies, flawed versions, mis-representations, the real is there. The original must be there waiting to be found.
And if one finds nothing worthy of devotion, no complete love, nothing so great that in that love all else, all other worldly worries evaporates, then use your imagination. Create it. Set the goal.
That imagination could be “you” the real you, subconscious you, showing you something divine within yourself.
And if it really is spiritual it must be within you. Can’t be anywhere else.
So then this disappointment in others makes little sense. The Path was always about finding that perfection within you, and if it takes the form of someone you know and love dearly, great.
But it’s still you. And that is the point and the miracle. You own that. It owns you. The source of all that joy is within you, even if a teacher helps you find it, like most teachers.
And then, such things to discover there!

I fail to see the importance of being “authorised” of being the successor.
What difference does it make?
If an advanced disciple like Kirpal or Mastata (assuming of course that they were advanced – which is by no means certain), has reached Sach khand, what is the need for being the official successor?
And why did Swami Ji have 6+ successors (all official except Jaimal)
What does it mean to be an officially appointed successor
do they have special powers?

You correctly quoted for the first time, Sceptic.
It’s your failure and the above one was the absurdest comment.
Yes, you are FAILED big time not only in understanding the meaning of a simple english word, but also in recognising the beautiful comments above provided by the living persons and their first hand experiences.
Please go through the book about biography of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj (which I provided the link in earlier comment).
When you are saying 6+ successors of Soami Ji Maharaj as official, it means, you know the meaning of official successor and there you are falsely invalidating Jaimal Singh Ji (Without reading the text and books). On the other hand, you are supporting whole heartedly Mastana Ji and asking what does authorise mean. It’s really funny and representation of your childish and in-genuineness. It’s clear you are neither serious nor sincere in your questions.
I think the answers you’ve already received from multiple legitimate sources are way much much more than the worth what your questions hold.
Especially because you are not appearing like a genuine seeker to the answers of these questions rather your stand is more like a participant of a debate. And here no one else is debating except you. Most people are here trying to help each other.
Whereas, it’s appearing that you are not at all serious about your own questions, had you been more serious and sincere you would have first read the books and the comments above before posting more absurd comments like the above.
God bless you & may you find your debating partner soon and I hope not on this forum.

Hi RS Sceptic
You wrote
“I fail to see the importance of being “authorised” of being the successor.
What difference does it make?”
It should mean something. But as with the holy Bible and so many other legal and historical documents, they can be doctored, or re – written, buried or burned so that we only get a piece of the picture at best.
Which means they mean nothing.
Your sentiment, your judgment, your experience means everything.
Everyone can tell you of the great food at a week known restaurant that had five stars. But if it makes you sick, that’s not even one star. You don’t need to prove that to anyone. For you, it was terrible… And the reverse can happen. A crummy cheap Mexican place of no account, humble cook, limited menu. But their cheese enchiladas are divine.
You can brag about that place to your friends, but when it becomes a chain you can blame yourself if the food doesn’t quite have that secret and sublime quality.

777 says: “And all I write here is just the beginning
We see how Compassion is the root of this all
It’s by Empathy without second thoughts that we were attracted to this Path”
Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
How many of you actually feel the pain and suffering of the world. Why is it okay to just sit and meditate and find peace and joy in one’s own inner world and then continually talk about it even though its not actually helping others. It seems like a selfish ego to me. I’m very far from perfect and I know that but at least I do care about the suffering of others.

Dear One initiated,
this is my source for my comments about Jaimal singh
http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/page1.html
What it says is
There is no evidence of Swami giving jaimal permission to teach in the punjab.
(If you have evidence that Jaimal WAS given permission, please supply it.)
There is no evidence that Swami Jo even knew who Jaimal was
(If you have evidence, please supply it)
Swami Ji never wrote jaimal any letters. Why not?
Since you are so concerned about evidence, then tell me what evidence you have.
Is it just the fact that the RSSB books have it written there
you choose to believe the RSSB books than other evidence?

Hi Jen
You wrote
“How many of you actually feel the pain and suffering of the world. Why is it okay to just sit and meditate and find peace and joy in one’s own inner world and then continually talk about it even though its not actually helping others. It seems like a selfish ego to me. I’m very far from perfect and I know that but at least I do care about the suffering of others.”
Very interesting thinking.
If I am happy naturally I want to share. Why not? It would be an obscenity not to.
I have a key to a bakery the runs day and night. How much can I eat? Of course I swing wide the doors and invite anyone in. That’s our duty and our pleasure. And when I see someone who was suffering now enjoy a crust of bread as if it were a feast, of course there is no joy like that.
There is a bliss in helping others, especially in secret. In secret.
But how could I help if I were not happy? A miserable person handing out money? Very meager.
Lift my spirits. Thats what most people want and need. But where to get it except from someone who has found that treasure within themselves?
If I have peace, naturally I want to share that peace. Where is suffering supposed to go if not towards peace and happiness? We are all in this together, Jen. We are all part of the same. If my left hand is injured, my right hand reaches over to hold it.
That is just normal.

Mike Williams aka zakkaria you are keep pushing your site which you made which is full of holes…proven many times…..and lies and your manipulations….its boring…i am really amazed you didnt change a bit.

And you choose to believe random people writing anything irrational on freeyellow as evidence rather than the books written by the saints, really ?
And by the way, the book I mentioned is not from RSSB, it’s written by Sant Kripal Singh, someone you believed that he did advanced spiritually.
Almost all of your statements are self contradicting, on one hand you do not even believe if Soami Ji Maharaj were True Master and then you were declaring 6+ masters as legit ones and then Jaimal Singh Ji as not.
Even if by your own statements 6+ were spiritually advanced it automatically means Soami Ji Maharaj were True Master.
And you said, I am sure you have thoroughly read about, that Mastana Ji was spiritually advanced so it automatically means Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj and HIS Master Jaiaml Singh Ji Maharaj were spiritually advanced and True Masters.
Sceptic the biggest thing you are missing in all your questions, discussions and debates is Love.
Basically what you all are trying to point out some or other way is finding a fault in RSSB and the Present Master which have not been able to do so far.
So tell us your background first, did you ever follow a Master and then got hurt due to some reason or the other which brought such a level of hate and objections in your heart ?
I would like to hear about them truly.
May God bless you with loads of Love.

To One Initiated who asks RS Skeptic,…”tell us your background first, did you ever follow a Master and then got hurt due to some reason or the other which brought such a level of hate and objections in your heart ?
I would like to hear about them truly.”
Oh my! Now you opened Pandora’ s Box! RS claims he is a Jhani that has been intiated by all RS Masters. Plus he is a high Yogada Initiate Adept in all the Self Realization Initiations, which are more advanced than RS Initiations.
He said Sant Thakar Singh’s initiation ” had the most Juice.
He favors the Soamibagh Parent Group initiation as the only valid one.
He is also a Christian Skeptic.
He is a Self Proclaimed Atheist that wishes he had a soul.
He claims to be a very close old friend of David Lane.
But in a dozen more years of throwing rotton eggs and tomatoes at RSSB, Kirpalis, ” Moles”, Self Realization followers, Christians,. and also threatening to sue Lane, Bum Wipe, for disclosing his real name on Lane’s Forum,….after HE, HIM SELF, posted his own real Name on a post in Lane’s RSS Studies Forum, …….he still loves to be the center of attention, and to be offered another opportunity to plug his Yellow Pages RSSB secret history.
Maybe He, RS Skeptic, with all of his Aliases, still has his tomes of Initiations and Guru experiences he can access and copy and paste here for your entertainment.
😇💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤

The proof of any Teacher that is transferable is the same as the proof for Jesus. The beauty of the writings attributed to them.
When Christ says “Let one who is without sin cast the first stone, ” He provides an ethic that raises the bar higher than it has ever been raised before in written history. So high that humankind is still struggling today to approach that.
When Sawan Singh writes “We have no right to call the Lord our Father unless we can call ALL men our brothers”, He raises the bar on what it means to be a human being, and in that one sentence earns His place as divine, certainly as humanity’s teacher. Those words, like Christ’s, if understood and honored would end all war, all bigotry, all prejudice.
If there were nothing but these teachings, no spirit, no God, these words are God.
And those who are touched by them have found their inspiration.
The proof are the teachings and their effect on us, which will be different for different people.
Should we marry someone oh the basis of a lineage or on the basis of love?
The whole world knows that the honorable answer is the latter.

Hi Jen
You can’t know what eventually good & bad an anonymous does/did in life
In one of my first comments I said : in my second backwards
I was a killer
Also amidst all this negativity, tristesse, you could be glad when somebody is happy and tells a about it
and how to carbon copy
Proof is in the pudding !
777
—
hallucinations : google brian+777+vivaldi

Jim Sutherland you forgot that he is also the only one to know about pranahuti…..and..his”something else”

Pelle, ….thanks for reminding me. I forgot about his Pranauti and some thing else initiations. Also, I should also mention being him being the Self Proclaimed Savior of all future children that he saves from the snares of Radha Swami Gurus.
I was a traveling Sales Engineer when I was first initiated, before we had free Internet and WiFi, so I printed our his entire Secret Radha Swami Yellow pages so I could take it on the road with me to read.
Most of his Anti RSSB and Anti Ruhnani information came from the Books Sant Das wrote that he published, along with his traslations of the Agra Swamibagh parent group’s Gurus up to Babuji, the last Guru.
Sant Das had a Boner against RSSB and Ruhani, that RS Skeptic parroted. Most of the Jamael information came from Sant Das’s 5 Volume Set of ” Correspondence With Certain Americans.
I bought the entire Library of all the Books Sant Das published from his wife, and had them shipped from India on Banana Boats.
David Lane was the only other Westener saying he owned all those books, at the time, besides me, so we knew where RS Skeptic, i.e. ZAKK, i.e. Mike Williams was getting his ” Thunder” from.
I seem to remember Lane saying that ZAKK never even ever went to India, so he must have become a Pranahti Adept via Books.
But in all the years, ZAKK has never once, disrespected me, on Lane’s RSS studies site. That’s more than I can say for 98% of the others!

Dear One initiated,
You said “you choose to believe random people writing anything irrational on freeyellow as evidence rather than the books written by the saints, really ?”
WOW – what a statement! Firstly – I don’t believe any of it. However, I am asking YOU and others here
why would would believe a RSSB book or Kirpal book, for that matter, would have any more
credibility than the source I found on the internet.
It is a circular argument to say “because they are saints.”
You don’t know who is a saint or if there is any such thing.
It is an assumption.
To a non-believer, there is no such thing as a saint.
Also I don’t believe Kirpal or Mastana were advanced. Whatever advanced means.
I was just saying that it was considered by many at the time that those two were advanced.
I don’t believe any of it.
That’s why you are confused.
You say “Almost all of your statements are self contradicting,”
only if you take them to mean something they don’t mean.
You say “on the one hand you do not even believe if Soami Ji Maharaj were True Master”
That’s not what I was saying. I was saying that according to some writers he was not an authorised successor.
I personally don’t care.
However, those who do believe have a hugh problem if Swami is not the successor to Tulsi
because then the whole of RSSB is not authentic if Swami Ji was not authentic.
You say “then you were declaring 6+ masters as legit ones and then Jaimal Singh Ji as not.”
You don’t understand the simple point I was making?
let me make it clear.
Swami Ji declared them as his successors – that makes them legit.
That means they were authorised successors.
jaimal was not mentioned so therefore not authorised.
If you say “it was in a private meeting that he was told to teach in Punjab”
Well then – why believe that when there is no evidence?
And if you do believe, then why don’t you believe Kirpal when he claims the same.
I personally don’t care, but am asking why believe one and not the other.
Then you say, “Even if by your own statements 6+ were spiritually advanced it automatically means Soami Ji Maharaj were True Master.”
Doesn’t mean that at all.
Swami ji might not be officially authorised which would mean he is not the successor, but may still be advanced.
Perhaps like kirpal. Maybe kirpal was not authorised but was advanced.
I am just throwing up the possibilitues.
Like the possibility that a person may not be the official successor, but could still be advanced.
Certainly we know from history that thethe opposite can happen.
someone can be authorised but not be spiritually advanced.
Charan singh for instance, by his own admission was not advanced.
The biggest thing I am missing is love?
Okay – tell me about this four letter word.
I just pointed to the information about Babani. If that is true, then that does indeed show lots of faults in RSSB.
If you don’t believe the babani episode you can carry on in your ignorance is bliss.
May the fictional God bless you also

“How many of you actually feel the pain and suffering of the world. Why is it okay to just sit and meditate and find peace and joy in one’s own inner world and then continually talk about it even though its not actually helping others. It seems like a selfish ego to me. I’m very far from perfect and I know that but at least I do care about the suffering of others.
I think most do and we wall some part of it off too. Of course,
we try to help, offer support silently or maybe actively if lucky,
reach deep into ourself to say or do or say something that eases
pain. It’s connectedness and humanity that’s innate within us,
not the separative ego.
In the end though you have to be strong yourself, be at peace
within, stable, in control of raging emotions and a mind out of
control. Then you’re equipped to help.
However far we miss the mark, I think the mystical practice’s aim
is to do just that. Control the mind, eliminate the “ego” rather
than enhance it, listen rather than talk.
It’s not some self-absorbed, reclusive withdrawal from the world
or the suffering of others. “Ascended Masters in Himalayan Caves” are a product of the imagination”

Sceptic : Well then – why believe that when there is no evidence?
Hi all
I propose to only believe when you have evidence
Charan said
If you find a better system , . . i go with you
777
PS
Nothing

“Dera traditions do not allow nepotism”
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/haryana/-dera-traditions-do-not-allow-nepotism/461270.html
A grandson of Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh’s predecessor Shah Satnam Singh says there is no place for nepotism under Dera Sacha Sauda traditions. Ram Rahim Singh’s family has been making efforts to appoint his son Jasmeet Singh as his successor. It is for Ram Rahim to decide if he wishes his son to succeed him.
…
Shah Satnam Singh, who was the second head of Dera Sacha Sauda founded by Shah Mastana Balochistani in 1948, had nominated Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh as his successor in 1990, a year before his death.
Shah Satnam Singh’s grandson Bhupinder Singh, a farmer, told The Tribune today that their family had stopped visiting the dera in 2002. Incidentally, this was the year when allegations of sexual exploitation of dera sadhvis against Ram Rahim surfaced.
“My grandfather, Shah Satnam Singh ji, started looking for a successor when he attained the age of 70. Dera followers wanted my father Ranjit Singh to succeed my grandfather but he strictly told them that the dera was not a personal property that a father could pass on to his son,” he said.
Later, Shah Satnam Singh named Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh as his successor.
During clashes between Sikhs and dera followers, radical leader Sukhwinder Singh Khalsa had alleged that Ram Rahim Singh with the help of Punjab terrorists had intimidated Shah Satnam ji to make him dera head.
“We heard such allegations when Ram Rahim Singh became dera head at the age of 23. But we had no evidence to support this,” Bhupinder said.
Asked what has changed in the dera since he grandfather left, Bhupinder said he was only 15 years’ old when Shah Satnam ji died. They could see commercialisation having taken over the dera culture.
Free langar service to devotees has also given way to canteens where followers have to pay for food.

Radha Soami sect seeks nod to sell ‘excess’ land
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/himachal/radha-soami-sect-seeks-nod-to-sell-excess-land/461291.html
The Radha Soami Satsang, Beas, in Himachal has sought the permission of the state government to allow it to sell excess land donated by followers.
…
It is learnt that the file, which had been sent by the Revenue Department to the Law Department for legal opinion, has been sent back with adverse comments. The Law Department has clarified that since all religious and charitable institutions are allowed to hold excess land, allowing them to sell this land will be illegal.
The government, in relaxation of the Himachal Pradesh Ceiling on Land Holdings Act, 1972, had in August 2012 brought in a legislation, allowing religious and charitable institutions to own more than 150 bighas land. Many sects possess excess land which has either been purchased or donated by people at various places in Kangra and Shimla. The move was primarily aimed at wooing the big chunk of electorate before the last Assembly polls.
“While allowing these institutions to hold excess land, there was a clear provision which said they could not sell, mortgage or dispose of such land held over and above the limit,” revealed officials. As such, allowing them to sell land would be illegal. Moreover, if the Radha Soami Satsang is allowed to sell land, it will not have to seek permission under Section 118 of the Land Reform and Tenancy Act as it was given the status of agriculturists in the early nineties.

Dera Sacha Sauda uses 3 words that are different from the 5 words used by RSSB. They don’t practice sound but only Simran of these 3 words.

Why do you people spend so much time in figuring out if Jaimal Singh or Swamiji was authorised or not?
Still Swamiji and Babaji, even if we assume they were not authorised, gave teachings
that are good. Thats all that matters.
Did they ask you to give money? No.
Then who gave? You gave.
In the Babani case, who proposed to give first? Was it Maharaj or Babani? Babani.
Babani forgot or did not know Rule No 1. What is Rule No 1?
Rule No 1: Go To any Guru or Satsang or Temple. Keep the Purse, Cheque books and ATM cards at Home.
You go for spiritual purpose. Not monetary.
Rule No 2: Never break Rule No 1.
Now he wanted his portion of it back. RSSB denied.
In the olden days, a German lady enthusiastically gave donations to Ramanaasram. And then when the enthusiasm was
over, she demanded complete refund. After some arguments, matter was reported to Ramana Maharishi. He simply directed
the management to return her amount and add Rs 5 ( in those days, RS 5/- is a large number, considering
that Ramanaasram was always living hand to mouth).
A rich organization like RSSB should have simply given a good compensation to Babani. That is the ideal
human way to help humans.

Dear Satya
Krishan Babani was a well known and fine speaker, and loved by Maharaji.
The story about him is entirely fictitious and without any corroboration nor verified authorship.
You might as all have invented a new story and claimed it was about Winston Churchill having regretted fighting Hitler.
It’s that preposterous and without evidence.
But Church of the Churchless, like any Church, has its share of those who believe, not on the basis of fact, but instead because they want to believe.
You can be as blind about faith in something as you can about faith in slander against something. It’s just a mirror of one’s own psychology.

The disciples of this Baba ( Dera Sacha Sauda of Guru Ram Rahim Insaan)claim that To save the nation and people from devastating effects, Guruji had to go to prison.
There was a great threat of war between India and China because of the long dispute between the two nations. The results would have been very devastating for India.
The Guru to save the nation and people from hazardous effects willingly accepted to take the whole burden on his shoulders by going to prison. A peace pact was signed between the two nations and the threat of war disappeared immediately within two hours after his holiness was condemned by court and accepted to be jailed.

I had no idea people were talking about me. Have not followed Radhasoami for many years.
First, I received an email from a Rajinder rep that he would kill me if I said anything bad about
Kirpal. Next that rep posted on RS Studies using my real name and posting pyschotic messages
under my name. That is now illegal in California. Next ball bearing were placed in my brakes,
but my wife drove the car that day and had complete brake failure going 65 down the freeway.
I was about to go to the FBI when Lane stopped the posting of this fellow assuming my identity.
I had informed Lane about the death threat from this fellow before all this. Finally a fellow named ratnagarro got Lane to stop this rep using my name. I have never wrote my real name on RS Studies.
The Beas reps contacted me immediately after Radhasoami Beas Secret History was featured many years ago on David Icke’s website. He had asked me for permission.. David is now famous for reptilians.
I do not agree with Icke’s religious views, but do agree on the New World Order.
The Beas reps informed me Gurinder said the Secret History is correct, but he has some differences on interpretaion of the facts.
Oddly enough, if you carefully read the Secret History it is not negative on RS Beas as much as it seems.
I do have confidential information from the late S D Maheswari I have not published. My intention was not
to crucify RS Beas and I informed Gurinder of this.
The Secret History is rather a direct attack on Kirpal and successors. And, on Jaimal.
I am actually agnostic, not atheist. But, I joke about it.
Gurinder likes my book because it does crucify Kirpal and gang. David Lane had wrote a great book called
Radhasoami Tradition on Kirpal and gang. This was his best book. Everything he said about Kirpal
was true.
Pranahuti comes from the Sahaj Marg group in India. I was initiated by Ram Chandra before he
died in 1982. The group I believe has a fake master now (grin). But pranahuti is real.
Don’t know if Ram Chandra left a real successor.
Remember, Chachaji did leave Sawan Singh in charge of Beas (forced him). But, not as a Guru or initiator.
Sawan did sit at the feet of the last Agra guru and Beas has always accepted the Agra lineage as a real lineage.
Remember, Salig Ram started the Radhasoami faith., not Swami Ji. The 5 paganistic names were replaced by Radhasoami mantra. The five names are satanic. Radhasomi is supposed to be above the satanic regions below Sach Kand.
I have also been initiated by RadhaKrishna gurus from Brindraban. Krishna is a demonic entity.
Sant Mat has extreme resemblance to Freemasonary. The theosophical society by Blavatsky Alice Bailey
said they were Freemasons and first published their books under the Lucifer trust. Now Lucis trust.
Yes, yoga is satanic. I tried to find my way above the satanic and see if there was anything there.
Was there a real true God ? Was there real true power for the good ?
The gods of the five names track back to Egypt and the Summerians. Only the names have changed.
Kundalini has always been there. ALWAYS.
RA is the chief God of the ancient egypitans. White people crossed the Indus valley thousands
of years ago and started the class system in India. Alexander the Great was turned back
at the Beas River in India about 330 B.C

Dear Spencer
What evidence do you have that the Babani story is fictitious.
Just because you don’t like it, it’s fictitious.
The incident is well known and documented.
You are the only person who claims it is fictitious

Hi R S Skeptic
It seems you are beginning to understand. Only a true seeker will ever understand.
Faquir Chand said it well, when he said you will find yourself hamging on the
gallows with no support in the end. You will end up rejecting almost everything.
You will find you have no self. That enlightenment will seem facinating.
But even that is not necessary to realize.
Do we survive death is the great question. Enlightenment will not give
you that answer.
The religious spend their lives supressing a self that never existed, thereby
reinforcing the delusion. There never was a self that ever existed to ever have
gotten rid of.
But, beyond enlightenment is compassion. Compassion needs no laws.
On the road of life, compassion stops when it sees wrong doing and fixes
the situation. Thereby the compassionate always appear to be bad people
to the public.
Man is a horrible animal. Man lies and lives in complete illusion.
Almost everytime you try to help someone and succeed, they will betray
you and use you.
Man needs his delusions to get by in life. Logic does not help them.
For, even if they become convinced of your logic, they will replace
the old delsion with a new delusion.
To destroy peoples delusions, one needs a replacement for them. The problem is
there is no replacement to give them.
For, compassion has no reward.

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“What evidence do you have that the Babani story is fictitious.
Just because you don’t like it, it’s fictitious.”
Just because you like it is it fact?
It is fiction until you provide evidence, which you have failed to do.
The story has no verification from anyone who was there.
The story has no attributed author.
And no independent corroboration from anyone else.
Just a delusion shared by those with a need to believe it.
Fables are well known, also.
I am open to verification. You are not providing it. Until you do, the story is fiction.
Your choice to believe it unverified is bigotry.
In the United States we have a very simple ethic : innocent until proven guilty.
I’m not sure where you hale from, but this ethic is very popular and well known and honored here.

Hi Mike
You wrote
“Man is a horrible animal. Man lies and lives in complete illusion.”
Mike, Try it, you might like. Try being a real man first.
Then you might not think it’s so bad.
Whatever happened to you, you’re here. So make the best of it, and when you enter someone’s home, try not to run it down. Don’t bring a white glove, don’t look under the furniture. Be happy for the view out the window. Out of dirty and filth beautiful trees rise.

The devils are in Kirpal’s groups. I am talking about possession. You people think
Satan is a fallacy. Evil as an actual entity does not exist. Evil is the stuff of fairy tailes.
Lucifer does exist and his twin Satan. They do control this earth including your Guru..
Most religions are Satanic.
You worship Satan no matter how smart you think you are.
Did you know the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Freemasons, and many others, all have
the same initiations ? All were formed by high powered Freemasons ?
Did you know Salig Ram, the founder of Radhasoami Faith, was a high powered English official
in India as postmaster general of Uttar Pradesh ? He actually initiated a Viceroy ?
All high powered English officials back then were Freemasons . 16 USA presidents were Freemasons
including George Washington and Benjamin Franklin. Both George Bush’s
were Skull and Bones..
Theosophy is Freemasonry. All the inner planes are the same as Sant Mat. Manly P Hall was a 33rd degree Mason. All from ancient Egypt. Same gods same inner planes.
Jiddu Krishnamuti was supposed to be the new Christ. He debunked Free Masons.
the inner planes and god men. He shattered theosophy and gurus. Blavatsky and Alice Baiiley
and Annie Bessant and Leadbeater were debunked. The Theosophical Society collapsed.
I can excuse satsangis from being stupid. But I cannot excuse exsatsangis from being stupid.
Get off your lazy butts.
None of you exsatsangis have a clue.

Dear Mike Williams
I see the things you don’t believe in.
And I see the things you do believe in.
You believe in the conspiracy of Free Masons, of devils, of even the Founding Fathers….
But your views are biased.
Krishnamurti did not debunk Theosophy. He rejected the effort of that organization to promote him as a child-Christ. He was actually very wise, and their judgment of his character was not poor at all.
Even Kings have become students of spirituality. No news there. Certainly no conspiracy.
If a devil knows there is spirit and God, they may be more spiritually advanced than someone with no knowledge of spirit. Devils are people, too, Mike. They also struggle with their job.
If there is a conspiracy, Mike, it’s not just the X files.
It’s all the files, A to Z. The entire creation is a conspiracy to screw Mike Williams and keep him in box, like an elephant, feeding him peanuts.
Under every rock, a whole host of teaming life struggling for their own selfish reasons, just like you and I.

Krishnamurti was my first mentor. I met him at 12 years of age and
knew him for many many years. He debunked not only theosophy,
but almost every other religion. He rejected the role of the incarnation
of Lord Maitreya, the new Christ on earth.
I saw him do it first hand. I was there.

Dear Spencer Tepper,
There is no reason to disbelieve the account of Babani.
I could ask you what evidence you have about all the things you believe.
How do you know Jaimal was an appointed successor to Swami Ji?
if you have no evidence , then why do you believe it?
You seem to selectively believe what you want to believe.

Mike Williams, I also went to Ojai to hear him, and I’m pretty sure he would not want anyone representing his views for him, as he stated himself.
If you honor your own mentor you should follow that instruction.
One thing that can be said, he never rejected his destiny as a world teacher, only the role of an organization leader regarded as having some special truth.
At no point did he state or write any rejection of any teaching, other than asserting his personal belief in no formal organized “path” to truth… Simply a personal journey.
Krishnamurti was gracious. Pointing the finger of condemnation at any organization is quite the opposite of his entire personality and philosophy.
The Krishnamurti you knew is not the one I knew.

Hi Spencer
What happened to Krishnamurti is well known. You are too far off the mark
for me to respond to. No contact point in reality.

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“There is no reason to disbelieve the account of Babani.”
Anytime you read an account attributed to a real person but no author the question arises as to whether it is true or not. If the author is unknown, and there are no sources of independent verification, then it might as well be a fable. That secret author could be using Babani’s name falsely.
Sceptic, you really should apply a higher standard for what you accept as truth. Because in this case, it’s nothing more than slander. Not only slander against Maharaji, but against Babani, since he is not here to verify this claim.
Any author willing to name someone else, but not themselves, is hiding something.
And pasting that over and over again does not make it “well documented”. Only well-pasted.

Sceptic,
I would completely agree with Spencer here.
You’d also need to notice that the text records and mentions the statements of at least 10-12 different persons also including Maharaj Ji and Babaji as well.
So the question is who is this author who had access to literally every contractor and every sewadar and every person involved to collect their statements and then describing the meetings with Master in such details as he was himself witnessing them.
This all looks fabricated and nothing more than slander.
Sant Kripal Singh is a well known name and his sect is still going on, the book on biography of Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj I mentioned in one of the earlier comments was written by Kripal Singh and a proper published text with the details of author which you can verify with the current master of their sect.
If you still want to believe Babani’s anonymous slanderous text is real and Kripal Singh’s well documented and internationally published book about Jaimal Singh Ji Maharaj is false – sure keep believing what you want and be happy. Although that’d be a loss, a net loss proposition.

Mike Williams
What can I say?
You see an angry Krishnamurti.
I saw a man at peace, who honored his own mentors and condemned no one. That is the man commonly known.
I see what you do not believe.

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“I could ask you what evidence you have about all the things you believe.”
There is a basis for every belief, even a belief in slander and bigotry. Nothing arises randomly in a creation all science proves has a cause behind every effect.
There is a reason you believe the unfounded slander. It isn’t based upon evidence, since there is none.
It is based on your own internal choice.
And that is not based on evidence. But it is based on something. Perhaps some desire.
To then demand a higher standard from anyone else seems hollow, unless you do some homework yourself to question your own beliefs first, submit those to scrutiny, and amend them as facts prove otherwise.
This is what real adults do.

Dear Spencer,
just adding a name means nothing.
even if a name was there – you will say who else was there?
RS books and other religious texts claim many things that are not true and not collaborated by anyone. Kirpal claimed that Sawan had authorised him to be the true successor and that the people at beas only wanted property.
Turns out it was made up.
Jaimal in the same way was not an appointed successor.
Nor was Swami a successor of Tulsi.
Yet you believe all this.
Without any proof. Just because it is written in an RS book.
now we even have strong evidence that Swami and Jaimal were both
self-appointed.
but you ignore all that.
I don’t know if the babani incident is true. But it’s likely. There was dispute about the Sawan Sadan flats and RS did not want them to be sold to anyone.
so why would the account not be true?
and I have heard it from others too. that RSSB offered to give back just the original money which they called a deposit and not purchase price.
so it all fits and makes sense.
You have made statements about KrishnaMurti that Mike above has just proved from his first hand experience are not true

Dear Spencer,
I suggest you take your own medicine.
You suggested to me
“you really should apply a higher standard for what you accept as truth. ”
My suggestion is that YOU do this.
I really don’t care whether the Babani account is true or not.
It makes no difference to my life. It is purely academic.
And it’s not slander nor is it karma for me to post it here.
These are all silly beliefs of those who are steeped and trapped by their beliefs.
I don’t follow RS or anything else.
To me, it’s all bullshit. Same as all religions.
People believe all kinds of nonsense like the virgin birth
RS followers believe different nonsense.
Yet strangely think they are scientific because they are doing the inner
experiment to prove the truth.
The disciples of Guru Ram Rahim claim that to save the nation and people from devastating effects, Guruji had to go to prison.
People believe what they want to believe.
Doesn’t make it true.
If I were to ask a disciple of Kirpal or Ajaib about successorship they will say they don’t care as they have inner proof.
Anyone can use that logic.
but there is no inner proof.
So what if you see light?
What does that mean?
So what if you astral project to the regions?
it’s just a subjective experience and does not prove anything.

Hi Skeptic,
My posts are being deleted. This had happened before here.
Most of us old timers are staying away from this blog as our posts are being deleted.
I am going to stay away. This confirms it for me.
We no longer know who controls this club.
What a shame..

No posts by anybody have been deleted. That’s fake news.

One Initiated, and Spencer,
You are both wrong.
There may be real and legitimate reason why the author may not want to disclose his identity.
That does not automatically mean the account is fake.
Neither is it true that if the author is known, the account is true.
Kirpal is known – he claimed that Sawan authorise him. Bit it’s not true.
Jaimal is known. he claims he was authorised (actually he may not have – but RSSB books make this claim) – but it’s not true
Swami Ji was not an appointed successor of Tulsi, nor Girdhari Sahib. He started his own when Girdhari appointed Shri Dihal Saheb, Swami Ji started his own mission.
That means he was self appointed.
It would not reflect very favourably on RSSB if the first two gurus were both self appointed and not authentic successors.
Because if it’s okay for a guru to self appoint himself then there is not issue with Kirpal doing the same either.
So RSSB says that jaimal was authorised by Swami Ji to be a successor.
My question to One initiated and Spencer is this
WHY do you believe this account when there is NO EVIDENCE for this
and there is a LOT of evidence now that Jaimal was not appointed at all.
he used to go visit the agra gurus and it now appears he was just a representative and initiated on their behalf until later breaking away.
there is even the view that swami never even knew who he was.
certainly the biggest question is why Swami mentions all the successor names but does not mention Jaimal even once – when he is specifically asked who will carry on after him. Very strange that he does not mention his chief and beloved disciple Jaimal if that is indeed what he was.
It appears that RSSB has completely fabricated events to make it appear that Swami and Jaimal were both legitimate successors.
Why would they do that?
survival.
doesn’t look good if the two founding gurus are not appointed successors.

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“I really don’t care whether the Babani account is true or not.”
Then, since, as you confess, even you don’t know, why bring it up?
Where you repeatedly miss the point, like a poor marksman, is this : the Path is a practice of meditation. No belief in any history is necessary.
Those who follow the instructions with diligence and devotion gain benefit from it, and they have their own personal, immediate and first hand proof. That is their own experience. Those who haven’t gotten there are encouraged to keep at it.
Nothing complicated.
With that inner experience of balance, peace, companionship and joy, which science has proven to be very healthy, there is no concern about external third hand, and often fabricated narratives, at all.

Dear One Initiated and Spencer,
point 1:
I really don’t care about Babani account for one reason: I don’t follow RSSB.
so it makes no difference to me if it is true or false.
however there is no smoke without fire, so why would anyone write this if no truth to it.
point no 2:
You both say that inner experience and mediation is the proof
and therefore it doesnt matter about history and self-appointed.
however, one initiated wrote very early in his comments on this post:

Just like Sant Kirpal Singh, Baba Somanath & Pritam Das, the Mastana Balochistani was not being given the authority by The Great Master Sawan Singh Ji Mahraj to be the successor or to start a separate sect.
So essentially mastana was never really the guru at all in the first place. And so the satnaam singh and the gurmeet singh were false successors of the falsely sect.
It’s yet another sad episode of witnessing a faker posing as a guru – good thing is that he is exposed now

How hypocritical is that?
When it’s others – it’s simple – they were self appointed and therefore fake.
when it’s MY guru in question, then the Babani account must be slander and the history about swami and Jaimal must be fabricated and it doesnt matter because I have inner experience anyway.
But you fail to see the point:
The followers of Kirpal say
“We see light and radiant form. out guru is true and we have inner experience.”
actually inner experience means nothing.
it can be delusional just like the man who says he is christ.
every religious person says he has some inner proof.
there is no inner proof.
it just means you are convinced.
it is purely subjective.
it is not any proof at all.
it just means: I am convinced and that is enough for me.
The christian, the muslim, the kirpal follower, the buddhist, the mormon
they are ALL convinced – but that does not mean it is true.
This inner experience is not proof of truth.
unless you can prove to me objectively that it is.
The inner radiant form might say to you “You are the next successor”
is it therefore true?
will you sign up to be the next guru if you get a inner message from the radiant form of your guru that you are the next successor?
It will be real and convincing to you. So why not?
Obviously Kirpal was convinced he was doing the work with the blessing of his guru. Why else would he set himself up as guru?
Same with guru gurmeet.

Dear RS Sceptic
You continue to cling to the same mistakes in reason.
Your ability to judge someone else’s personal experience is based on your system of belief and no actual evidence of their personal experience at all. But rather than say “I can’t make a judgment of someone else’s personal experience,” you label it delusional. And there is no evidence for that. All the scientific research on meditation proves that meditating improves cognitive functioning.
When you dismiss actual scientific facts, that is prejudice.
No real Saint wants you to believe the reports of others. They want you to find the best method of meditation and engage in that, learn from it, and base your beliefs upon your own experience.
Sawan Singh said that if you find a better method, please let Him know so He can also adoptee it. He Himself only believed in Sant Mat because it worked for Him.
You entirely ignore the very foundation of Sant Mat in your evaluation, but have no problem clinging to slander.
But you could investigate your own experience and deepen and broaden that experience for yourself through the exercise and discipline of mediation. Then you may learn the basis for your prejudice. I cannot conjecture on that. But you could find out for yourself.
You are trying to judge these things and have concluded all reports of inner experience are false. If that were so, no one would follow any Guru for long.
They don’t follow a Guru because someone wrote their lineage in a book, or because someone else deleted their name from another document.
People destroy and forge documents all the time. The Holy Bible is a great example. Modern translations are still doing this in the name of “clarity”.
People follow a Teacher, at least over a period of years, because they get something from that Teacher.
Where there is smoke there is fire.
So take the next step. Move out of all the smoke, and see the fire for yourself.

Mime Williams and Rs sceptic are one and the same. And he was caught many times on halft truths..manipulations and lies…too bad …i considered him good fella but still.. too much manipulations for my taste….sad

Dear Spencer
Anyone’s personal experience is not truth.
It is just their way of viewing, their subjective reality.
A person can think they are Jesus and be convinced.
Is it therefore true? Of course not.
There is a guy who thinks he was jesus in his previous life.
In fact there are many of them.
Here is the link to just one. You can find others too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Cv5hZfOmk
My guess is you will think these people are all deluded.
Yet it is no different from RSSB or any other religion.
You would not believe this man is Jesus.
But I could say – you have to go and get personal experience then decide.
I can bet you are not going to go there to decide – you will decide from
your own opinion that this is just another of the many quack cults out there.
I have decided the same about RSSB.
And it is as valid as you will decide about this cult.
Is it POSSIBLE this man is really Jesus? Yes – it’s possible
But not very likely.
Is it possible that RSSB is the truth?
Yes – it’s possible, but not very likely.
You also claim there is scientific proof about meditation.
There isn’t.
If there was – it would become part of the school curriculum.
There is just some evidence that experiments show there may be
Some Physical benefits from some types of meditation.
You have taken a big leap to conclude that RSSB meditation is
Scientifically valid.
You then say:

No real Saint wants you to believe the reports of others. They want you to find the best method of meditation and engage in that, learn from it, and base your beliefs upon your own experience.

This is just RSSB propaganda. The saint of RSSB is just interested in making RSSB and his
Family richer and he has succeeded in his mission.
He doesn’t care about your beliefs and progress. He must be laughing at you all.
When you listen to the number of people who ask the guru for grace
You can see most have no inner experience anyway.
And those who do are mostly deluded and cannot even
Write a coherent sentence without mystical bullshit
I, for one, never understand what they heck 777 writes.
Yet, in his world, he is writing great wisdom.

–
“” Tough questions, for sure. “” . . i saw above
If that is your conclusion,
then the only thing left for proof
are
vast provable miraculous serendipities
Wow, . . there are hundreds
777
–

Dear RS sceptic
You wrote
“The saint of RSSB is just interested in making RSSB and his
Family richer and he has succeeded in his mission.
He doesn’t care about your beliefs and progress. He must be laughing at you all.”
Once again Sceptic, you betray a level of ESP that would impress most Gurus.
You claim to see into the very motivation and thoughts of a human being you know very little about. You are depending upon stereorypes that belie your prejudice.
But, don’t let facts get in the way. The record of sheer bravery during the immediate days post Tsunami among RS Satsangis who went into dangerous and unsafe places where no other emergency relief would go is a matter of public record.
You wrote
“You also claim there is scientific proof about meditation.
There isn’t.
If there was – it would become part of the school curriculum.”
It is part of the high school and college curriculums in many states in the US… and that is because meditation reduces test anxiety, improves both academic and athletic performance, and reduces depression. Check out the Harvard, Yale and National Institute of Health’s findings.
For a guy who claims to know the very heart and mind of others, you seem out of touch with modern research.
You are completely responsible for your state of ignorance, and prejudice, on this front, because that research is just a click away.
Hate must be learned.. It has to be taught and nurtured, and it becomes a persistent habit that has blinded many otherwise intelligent people to simple scientific research findings.

Dear Spencer,
I am afraid you are totally deluded if you think the RS technique of meditation has any scientifically proven benefits.
You have taken a few selected articles about meditation in general and somehow concluded that this proves RS meditation is beneficial.
You have to conduct scientific experiments on the specific RS meditation to prove anything about RS meditation.
Meditation is of many types. They are not all the same.
You have not answered the points I made about the man who believes he is Jesus.
Obviously you don’t for a second believe the man is really jesus.
Many who are not brainwashed by RSSB also dismiss the notion of a perfect master in the same way.
Gurinder is clearly a conman to everyone except his followers.
The proof is in his actions.
He has amassed a personal fortune for himself and his family.
He has done this using his position and influence as a guru.
I don’t need ESP or the power to read minds to make these conclusions.
Have you witnessed any power he has beyond a normal human being?
He is creating RSSB centres all over the world. What for?
Spiritual people are interested in the spiritual path – not making lots of centres..
He has private medical care, and flies business class all over the world.
He is a hardened business man not a spiritual adept.
Would his sons have become billionaires if he was not the head of RSSB?
The simple and only answer is “no” because he used his position as guru.
Only the converted believers cannot see this.
Anyone else can see it clearly.
Just as you can see that this man claiming to be jesus is simply deluded.
If satsangis risked their life, post Tsunami, so what? Did Gurinder? No.
I am not questioning for a moment the RS followers and their degree of faith.
This guru gurmeet also has many ardent followers who caused riots.

–
These discussions go around unprovable standpoints
Nobody can look in a person and define his holiness
Each of us is on His Own
Only one thing is firm
The number of serendipities°° surrounding a person
( disciples also )
That number must be immense around a real Sat Guru
and colossally amaze the in-crowd
The Catholic church has one per century and then so happy
777
–
The last commenter has lost 🙂

Dear 777,
You are right
we cannot know for sure
however, we can make an intelligent guess.
That man I quoted above claims to be jesus.
I have not met him or researched him
I would make an intelligent guess that he is not Jesus.
Sure, I can’t prove it.
One thing I can do is see if there are other reasons for the person to
make their claim and id they get other benefits
in the case of the Jesus guy, he gets lots.
In the case of Gurinder, the same – plenty of benefits
and if you check out the history
gurus have had huge disputes and law suits over successorship
because it’s a lucrative business.
Gurinder proves the point.
before being the guru he was doing okay.
after being the guru he has done exceptionally well as hve his sons.
good business.
Even the free langer has gone at the major annual events,
instead food is sold which makes a profit.
the biggest cost in any catering operation is the wages.
he has free workers – so no wages.
and he just talks any old nonsense on the stage
answers questions with a joke
nobody gets a serious answer to any question.
as fas as I can see – it’s just entertainment – not a satsang

I, for one, never understand what the heck 777 writes. Yet, in his world, he is writing great wisdom.
…..It is all by the Grace of Almighty Babaji. Only the blessed ones will understand.

❗❗ ATTENTION ❗❗
To all the Readers,
believers, exers and non-believers of RSSB,
Lately, Sceptic is cooking up a lot of stuff and this was the lamest of them all.
This is the biggest LAME and a False statement given by Sceptic:

❝ Even the free langer has gone at the major annual events,
instead food is sold which makes a profit. ❞

Not only at the major annual events, the Langar is available free of cost at Dera Beas for 365 days during the year without fail and is served to any person who reaches on time to attend the Langar with no questions asked.
Canteens (for paid snacks) and Bhojan Bhandar Thali (for paid buffet) is always available alongside the Langar for anyone to opt for. Nothing is forced.
There is a Satsang event coming up at Delhi’s Chattarpur Centre on 6th, 7th & 8th October 2017 and Langar will be available freely. Every state’s local centres like Delhi’s Chattarpur serves free Langar whenever there’s Babaji’s Satsang event organised.
Langar, Satsang, Prashad, Darshan and Initiation are never ever charged at all at the premise of a True Saint.

I recently came across this short story about magic
and how we believe.
it’s from “The Magus” – John Fowles
The Prince and the Magician
Once upon a time there was a young prince who believed in all
things but three.
(1) He did not believe in princesses.
(2) He did not believe in islands
(3) He did not believe in God.
His father, the king, told him that such things did not exist.
As there were no princesses or islands in his father’s domains,
and no sign of God, the prince believed his father.
But then, one day…………,
the prince ran away from his palace and
came to the next land. There, to his astonishment, from every
coast he saw islands, and on these islands, strange and troubling,
creatures whom he dared not name.
As he was searching for a boat, a man in full evening dress
approached him along the shore.
“Are those real islands?” asked the young prince.
“Of course they are real islands,” said the man in evening dress.
“And those strange and troubling creatures?”
“They are all genuine and authentic princesses.”
“Then God must also exist!” cried the prince.
“I am God,” replied the man in evening dress, with a bow.
The young prince returned home as quickly as he could.
“So, you are back,” said his father, the king.
“I have seen islands, I have seen princesses, I have seen God,”
said the prince reproachfully.
The king was unmoved.
“Neither real islands, nor real princesses, nor a real God exist.”
“I saw them!”
“Tell me how God was dressed.” .
“God was in full evening dress.”
“Were the sleeves of his coat rolled back?”
The prince remembered that they had been.
The king smiled.
“That is the uniform of a magician. You have been deceived.”
At this, the prince returned to the next land and went to the
same shore, where once again he came upon the man in full
evening dress.
“My father, the king, has told me who you are,” said the
prince indignantly. “You deceived me last time, but not again.
Now I know that those are not real islands and real princesses,
because you are a magician.”
The man on the shore smiled.
“It is you who are deceived, my boy. In your father’s kingdom,
there are many islands and many princesses. But you are
under your father’s spell, so you cannot see them.”
The prince pensively returned home. When he saw his father,
he looked him in the eye.
“Father, is it true that you are not a real king, but only a magician?”
The king smiled and rolled back his sleeves.
“Yes, my son, I’m only a magician.”
“Then the man on the other shore was God.”
“The man on the other shore was another magician.”
“I must know the truth, the truth beyond magic.”

“There is no truth beyond magic,” said the king.

WHY is the RSSB Method so difficult to understand
How become Invulnerable,
There is a sweet Sound in everyone.
If not, we couldn’t live – it comes from the 90% “dark” energy
better call it Bright Energy, when heard by those of Compassion ( without agenda) , seeing it , hearing it
(the cruel ones don t see/hear)
Nobody needs a Master for this
But if you are bewitched or just curious,
an experienced individual can help to exploit it better
and he can give some tips
Then You see/hear that it is Who you basicly are and fall in Love
It’s your state of mind and just that
Next HE will propose to join the State of Soul; higher up
and the Concert will start
Therefore all 7 chakra equipped beings are equal
It is the 7th Heaven on earth
777
–

Dear One initiated,
before getting all excited, please ask what I am referring to. Did I say I was referring to Dera Beas? No – you just assumed that and incorrectly.
In the large scale satsangs that are conducted in overseas centres, (UK, Canada, Spain, USA etc) the food is charged for and not free langar. Usually a “packed lunch” for $3 or £2.50
That is what I was referring to, and you cannot deny that. So before calling me a liar, I suggest you get your facts straight and clarify what I am writing about.
Why are these charged for? People already give donations.
It is a profit making operation. And why not? Gurinder is a good businessman and he knows people in overseas centres will gladly pay – so charge them.
Of course he cannot remove the free langer at dera beas as it would be too obvious how greedy RSSB has become.
Also there are donation boxes all over Haynes Park and probably other centres. I thought they had a rule about not accepting donations without giving a receipt? Where has that rule gone? Certainly in the past you had to
have a receipt for any donations given.
Obviously it makes good business sense to make it easier to donate. Also that is anonymous cash and need not be shown in accounts.
Have any followers asked why RSSB is acquiring so much land and building centres all over the place? What has that got to do with spirituality?
It’s because RSSB is a business. And land is a good asset, especially when you have free labour to look after it, maintain it and improve it.
It’s all about money, money money. Why? because it’s a rich man’s world.

Sceptic,
If Bryan is allowing this comment of mine,
I hope this is the last time I am replying to any of your comments. Because I don’t want to engage in any further discussions with a fake person like you. You are neither a seeker nor a believer and not even a non-believer you are just like yourself.
You intentionally portrayed the wrong picture. And most people here on this forum knows about your intentions to a significant extent. You just slander.
You should really be talking about your own experience and feelings and not be a representative of others who are donating and who are consuming langar or who are purchasing the Pack Lunch without asking you.
Who has given you the responsibility of talking all this slanderous jargon on their behalf ?
Why do you think that what you are thinking about others feelings is more appropriate as compared to what they think about their own feelings ?
Your comments here on this forum are not making a slightest sense.
Has anyone forced you to put your money in the donation box ? If that is the case than you must protest against it.
And if that is not the case than what you are writing is nothing but just a slander.
If you think that you are donating and that is the reason you should receive the Pack Lunch for free, than instead of donating you should really be purchasing the Pack Lunch. How hard is it to understand for you ? I know that you know it’s not hard to understand.
It’s possible to wake a sleeping person but impossible to wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
I couldn’t agree more with Jim here that you are one of those persons who just enjoys involving everyone in baseless discussions and enjoys wasting everyone’s time by first posting slanderous texts and then asking and giving reasons on it.
Right now what we are discussing is not about being a believer, exer or a non-believer… and not even about one spiritual organisation or the other.
It’s just about being a truthful person, being a person of good characteristic values, being a person who carries some moral values.
I have not come across any other commenter on this forum who is as non-sensical as you.
If you believe in The Path, than you are making your own path longer and really longer. If not then you are just making your death really painful.
And if you are doing all these after being initiated then I would not want to repeat the words of Soami Ji Maharaj (read in Sarbachan if you want) but you are just creating a big mess for yourself.
May HE bless you with some wisdom and you will stop your own spiritual depletion.
Love to you brother.

Dear One Initiated,
First – why would brian not allow your comment? He pretty much allows all comments
Unless they are not making a point.
Why call me fake just because you can’t handle what I write?
You wrote “you are just like yourself” – well who else do you want me to be like?
I am not a believer or a seeker. Well so what? I don’t have to be either of them.
What picture did I intentionally portray wrongly?
Nobody knows my intentions – let alone most people.
Who exactly have I slandered?
I have made statements that are factually correct. I call a spade a spade.
What did I say?
*** Donation boxes are placed at major satsang events
Is this statement true? Obviously it is true. Where is the slander?
*** Packed lunches are available at £2.50
Is this true? Yes. So it’s not slander
*** free langer is not available at the same large satsang events
Is it true? Yes. So again – it’s not slander
Gurinder Singh has amassed a personal fortune using his position as guru
Is it true? Yes. So it’s not slander.
Why should I be talking about my own experience? I can comment on what I see happening around me. I am not a representative of others.
However, I am perfectly entitled to comment on what I see happening.
I have nothing against anyone purchasing a packed lunch. I merely pointed out that lunch is charged for now instead of a free langer.
Why would you get upset over that?
I correctly pointed out that RSSB is a business. Why do you get upset over hearing the truth?
What I think is not more important than what anyone else thinks.
This is a blog and everyone is free to post their opinions.
I have no issue with anyone posting anything they want to post.
You obviously do have an issue.
The comments I post make perfect sense, if you understand English.
I am not writing cryptic comments like 777 that you can’t understand.
You might not agree with them – so you call them slander.
But they make perfect sense.
Who cares if I put money in a donation box or not?
That is irrelevant.
I pointed out that the boxes are there – which they are.
So this is what you wrote:

Has anyone forced you to put your money in the donation box ? If that is the case than you must protest against it.
And if that is not the case than what you are writing is nothing but just a slander.

What total nonsensical rubbish you write.
So If nobody forced me to donate, then my statement becomes slander?
Do you even think before you write a statement?
And you claim I am writing nonsense, when you write things like this?
Whether I donate or not is irrelevant.
My statement is that donation boxes are all over there at the satsang events.
It is true that they are. Exactly how is that slander?
I suggest you go read up what slander means.
Next you write,

If you think that you are donating and that is the reason you should receive the Pack Lunch for free, than instead of donating you should really be purchasing the Pack Lunch. How hard is it to understand for you ? I know that you know it’s not hard to understand.

Well no – that’s not hard to understand – but what is hard to understand is what you write.
I didn’t say that the packed lunch should be free for donaters.
I merely pointed out that there is a packed lunch and no free langer.
What has this got to do with making a donation?
So what I write is a BASELESS discussion just because you don’t like it?
How am I wasting anyone’s time? If you want to read, read.
If you want to comment, then comment.
But I am not making you comment.
Next you write

It’s just about being a truthful person, being a person of good characteristic values, being a person who carries some moral values.

Good character? Some moral values?
How is that relevant to what we are discussing?
And what makes you think I have no good character and no morals?
And why is that relevant?

I have not come across any other commenter on this forum who is as non-sensical as you.

Really?
Check out the guy called “777” and tell me if you understand anything he writes
I don’t believe in any path – it’s all nonsense.
And it won’t make my death any more painful because I commented on here.
What spiritual depletion? More false beliefs

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“You have to conduct scientific experiments on the specific RS meditation to prove anything about RS meditation.
Meditation is of many types. They are not all the same.”
From a physiological perspective many forms of meditation are identical.
You are suggesting what, in scientific terms, is the issue of Generalization, or what is known as external validity.
Since RS mediation includes both repetition, like the Harvard meditation, and both visualization and passive mindfulness, your claim is doubtful.
Besides, the claims among RS meditators of finding peace and bliss with long term practice is identical to the reports of the other methods, maybe even to a greater degree. And those claims in the above methods have been proven scientifically to be based in physiological changes for the better in the brain.
Therefore, while you have offered a testable hypothesis, there is no actual evidence to support it. In fact the available anecdotal evidence supports the opposite, that the methods investigated are in common with RS meditation in so far as the measurable effects.
But you are most welcome to do your own personal investigation and see what happens. Then at least you have an anecdotal account based upon your own diligent effort. Instead of nothing, which is what anyone gets with no actual effort.

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“Even the free langer has gone at the major annual events,
instead food is sold which makes a profit.”
The major annual events are only the annual celebrations in India, the Bhandaras.
At these events, and every other day the Dera is open, the free kitchen is still open to anyone and everyone.
Events at all other centers, including Master’s international visits, are not annual events, nor has there ever been a free Langer established as a tradition there. The food cost is below any food establishment ‘s cost for a similar item, and only covers the actual cost of the food. There is zero profit in it. And again, In India, at annual events, the Langer is free.
Master’s foreign visits are not scheduled on any established annually recurring dates. No one knows whether He will visit an international center in May, July, August, or not at all in a given year. To try to pretend you were referring to these international visits compounds one lie with another.
To make a claim of profit when there is none, adds a third lie to your list.
I understand how you have justified to yourself spreading unfounded rumors, such as the anonymous property narrative, but why would you tell an outright lie, and then two more lies to cover the first?
I’m not sure you have met the minimum conditions for establishing truth, but rather than conclude that, I bring to your attention a simple fact you can verify, with a phone call or an email, for yourself. A little effort, and some humility, is the price we all pay every day for Truth.
Did you think you could own any truth without paying the price?
Unfortunately, Truth is not served in a free Langer. There is a heavy price to pay… That bloated head filed with pride.
It’s too bad you’ve taken this turn. Brian makes a good point, based on a commitment to personal honesty.
But your indulgence in lies hurts your case.

Dear Spencer,
You are writing nonsense again.
you wrote:

I understand how you have justified to yourself spreading unfounded rumors, such as the anonymous property narrative, but why would you tell an outright lie, and then two more lies to cover the first?

I have not told a single lie. Everything I have written is provably true and I stand by it.
The lie is told by One Initiated who made an ASSUMPTION that I was referring to dera
beas when I was clearly not.
Instead of ASKING me what I meant – he assumed. That was his mistake.
You now add to it by assuming he was correct. Even after I have explained exactly what I was referring to (international events)
To call me a liar – just adds to the nonsense you both write,
Only I know what I meant since I wrote it. And you cannot read my mind!
Major annual events – like for instance the UK visits is exactly what I was referring to.
Clearly I was not referring to dera beas because it’s not true for dera beas.
Only a moron would think I was referring to dera beas.
Go do your research – those UK annual satsangs have been EVERY YEAR without exception and every JULY / AUGUST for at least the last five years, and most likely the last ten years.
so I call them major annual events and that is exactly what I was referring to.
Why would I not refer to them as major annual events?
That is what they are – major, annual and events.
You are now trying to prove the unprovable. So what if they are not on exactly the same date? that doesn’t stop them being annual except in your deluded mind.
If I was referring to dera beas, I would have written BHANDHARAS.
Besides, Why would I be referring to Dera Beas, when that is not true?
Let’s get the facts straight.
Only one-initiated interpreted it that way and then assumed I was referring to Dera Beas. I never once said Dera Beas. If I meant that why would I not write it?
then when I clarified (not lied as you are saying), he has no reply.
first he assumes incorrectly and then accuses me of lying.
This is just nonsense – and then you do the same.
All I can say – is you are both not in touch with reality.
There is nobody more qualified to know what I meant when I wrote it than me.
I know what I was thinking about and I made it clear. He then calls me a liar and
you do the same.
I am afraid it just shows how both of you work – just to try to prove yourself right
you will go to any degree.
typical of believers who cannot see the obvious because they are brain washed.
So to you also – let me make it clear – I am referring to the UK and
international centres.
The food does not cost £2.50 in food costs.
any catering operation pays wholesale prices – not retail. The wholesale cost of the food they give for £2.50 is no more than £1.50, giving a profit of £1 per item sold.
The labour cost is the biggest cost – which is free for RSSB.
I don’t have an issue with them making a profit.
If I was running RSSB – I would do the same and it makes good business sense.
I am simply saying Gurinder is a good businessman.
He should be – that is his professional occupation.

Dear Spencer,
you wrote above
“Since RS mediation includes both repetition, like the Harvard meditation, and both visualization and passive mindfulness, your claim is doubtful.”
You are trying desperately to make it fit.
RS meditation is not mantra meditation, it is not liek the “metta” meditation of buddhism, and it is not mindfulness.
You must be doing your own version of the RS meditation.
RS meditation is (1) SIMRAN
repeating five holy names in a certain way to concentrate the mind
(2) Bhajan – plugging your ears and listening to the sound current
when really there is no sound current – its just the vibration you hear by plugging your ears.
(3) Dhyan – connecting to the radiant form
(4) leaving the body and meeting the radiant form
this is completely unrelated to Buddhist meditation that the studies were done on.
How can you say they are the same?
That’s like doing an experiment on water and then saying it’s the same
as doing it on hydrogen peroxide because they both contain hydrogen
and oxygen.
No scientist would do that.
The ONLY way to check the benefits and or harmful effects of RSSB
meditation would be to run tests on people doing that meditation over a given period.
Not just take tests on a different type of meditation and ASSUME it’s the same
because RSSB contains an element of the other type of meditation
That is now how you conduct a scientific experiment.
You have to be precise – not just guess.
Even the motivation and reason for doing the meditation will have a profound effect on the results.
RSSB meditators are in the different state of mind. They are trying to get to the astral region and see the radiant form of guru
nothing like buddhist meditation

Dear Spencer
“I bring to your attention a simple fact you can verify, with a phone call or an email, for yourself. A little effort, and some humility, is the price we all pay every day for Truth.”
I suggest you direct this towards one initiated
All he had to do was ASK me what I meant before making a false assumption.
But it’s much worse.
When I explain – he does not believe me and claims I am lying.
You take it to another level when you accuse me of three lies.
There has not even been one lie – expect in the deluded minds of both
of you.
Anything to prove yourself to be right and correct – even when you are totally
of the mark.
If I make a certain statement – only I know what I meant.
Did I say “DERA BEAS” – NO!
Did I say BHANDARAS? NO!
Did I say India NO!
so you both ASSUMED.
All you had to do was ASK me as follows
“RS Sceptic, please clarify if you mean dera beas, or international centres.”
instead, one initiated makes an assumption
and you jump on the bandwagon – assuming he is correct in his assumption
in fact his assumption was incorrect
and so are all your accusations of lying
Is this is the standard that RSSB followers live by?

Dear one initiated
I have shown above that I have not made any slanderous statements
all the statements were and are true and correct.
making a true statement does not constitute slander.
RSSB used to have a policy that nobody was allowed to donate if they dont take the receipt.
I am just posing the question, “What has happened to that rule?”
Was it pointless for all those years?
And why now does that rule no longer apply?
I am posing the question. It doesn’t become slander to question something.
anything you don’t like to hear, appears to be slander to you.
The answer is actually obvious.
Back then they had standards to adhere to.
However, it makes very good business sense to put donation boxes all over the
place, because it makes it easier to donate.
it is not a question of “did anyone force you to donate?”
It is a simple matter of observation.
Donations are important to RSSB – they are a priority.
If they were not – they would refuse to put those donation boxes there.
They would say, “We are not interested in donations. if someone really wants to donate, they can go to the office to donate. we are not going to make it easy to donate because we are not interested in donations at all, we are more interested in spiritual matters”
At one time that was true for RSSB, but not anymore.
This statement is an observation, not slander. There is no need for anyone to get upset because it is a simple statement of truth.
only believers like Spencer and one-initiated get upset because is shows them what they dont want to see – that RSSB has become commercialized.
In Charan Singh’s time there were no packed lunches and no donation boxes when he went to international centres for large scale satsangs.
This is simply the truth. At that time it was not commercialised.
Charan singh was no businessman.
Now things are different.
This is an observation, not slander.
and I have no malice in making these statements.
the malice is in the minds of Spencer and one-initiated

Dear RS Sceptic
There was never a free Langar at the UK events. Therefore you cannot use them as an explanation for your remarks. Nor have you acknowledged the fact that there is indeed a free Langar at the Dera and two free RS hospitals. When you mentioned free Langar that could only refer to the Dera, since that is the only place that has had one. Again, you have compounded one lie with another.
As for scientific research clearly you do not know the basic principles of generalization and external validity. These are principles tought to every undergraduate student of the sciences in their class on scientific method. Nor are you willing to conduct your own personal investigation to see for yourself. Your remarks here are simply uninformed.
I understand how ill suited you may be for a life of meditation. It isn’t for everyone. Certainly with anger and hatred it is practicality impossible.
Do not be disappointed if you did not receive initiation. Every request is met, it is only a matter of time.
If you did, your time would be better spent helping yourself, helping your brain, through meditation.
Pick the method that works best for you, and share that. Leave off slander and accusations. You will not help anyone by hate. But if you have something better, healthier, please share your evidence for it. That is always of interest.
“Hatred is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. ”
Dalai Lama

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“RSSB meditators are in the different state of mind. They are trying to get to the astral region and see the radiant form of guru
nothing like buddhist meditation”
Again, your statement reflects a lack of familiarly with RSSB meditation and the writings of the Saints.
(As a minor point, the Radiant Form is not the Astral form. No initiate is allowed to see anything until the third stage, as a general practice. )
As all the Masters teach, meditation is simply bringing the mind to a point of stillness and relaxation in the darkness, at the eye center. Techniques of focus, imagery, repetition, all with a loving heart filled with devotion, are employed.
There is no effort to go anywhere. Only just to be there, where we actually are, at peace. That’s the whole effort. The rest of the journey is entirely up to Him. Along the way the initiate learns the art of stilling the mind using the tools they are given in the method, the vows, and the lifestyle of peace, faithfulness, responsibility, kindness and contentment – building the atmosphere.
These statements can be verified in the writings of Baba Ji, Maharaji, Bahadur Ji, Great Master, Jamal Singh and Soami Ji.
Please read their writings directly to see for yourself.
From a scientific perspective, the physiological effects of various forms of meditation are very similar.
But you would have to conduct real experiments on RSSB meditators to claim either it is the same, in effect, or is not.
Functionally, the most unique aspect is the portion of meditation devoted to listening to the sound current (Word, Nam, Logos, Audible Life Stream) . But that is just another form of focus.
What the sound current does has nothing to do with our efforts, but is simply an aspect of that inner experience which is built in and which we witness with even very slight focus. People witness the sound current all the time but aren’t aware of it. The brain erases much of what you see and hear in the constant dumping of short term memory.
Even Buddha referred to the Divine Sound, along with LeoTzse. And so do Christian mystics (Jesus, St John of the Cross, the monks of the Thelokalia , Frai Louis De Leon, etc ) , Greek mystics (Pythagoras, Plato…) , Persian Mystics (Shams i Tabriz, Rumi …) even western poets (Lord Alfred Tennyson, Emily Dickinson) all refer to the Divine sound, inner music, music of the spheres which pulls the soul into the highest region.
At the least, conduct your own personal investigation by practicing different methods, according to each school’s guidelines. And then you could at least say what benefit you did or did not gain from each practice.
But you haven’t done that.
So you cannot make any valid claim at this point one way or the other about the effectiveness for you of any of these practices.
However, if you personally have tried any method diligently, following the guidelines scrupulously, I would be most interested to read of your results.

Dear Spencer,
There are a whole lot of incorrect statements in your reply.
You have written as follows
“When you mentioned free Langar that could only refer to the Dera, since that is the only place that has had one”
Dera is NOT the only place that has had free langer. Other centres in india also have them even when gurinder visits. So why can’t it be done in the UK and USA and canada etc? Clearly it is possible. Free langer is available on seva days.
Instead of making false accusations, why not ASK what I mean before jumping to conclusions?
I could, for instance right now, say to you, that you are a liar.
You have written that Dera is the only place that has had a free langer.
Spencer is a liar. Free langer is also served at other centres in India even at major events when Gurdinder comes. So Spencer has lied, and nothing he writes can ever be trusted as he no morals.
That is the kind of immature comments that you and one initiated are writing.
Then you write
“As for scientific research clearly you do not know the basic principles of generalization and external validity.”
Of course I know what generalization and external validity is.
It does NOT mean (as you seem to think) that you can just take one research and assume it applies to all.
What you are implying is absurd. That I can do an experiment of buddhist meditation and then claim it applies to all meditation. This is incorrect and shows the type of nonsensical thinking that goes on inside your deluded mind.
The next two sentences you write just show you are not in touch with reality.
“I understand how ill suited you may be for a life of meditation. It isn’t for everyone. Certainly with anger and hatred it is practicality impossible. Do not be disappointed if you did not receive initiation.”
Who said I was even interested in initiation? Or meditation? So why write this?
You next incorrect assumption is that I am writing out of hatred.
Again – lots in assumptions in your mind.
“The Radiant form is not the astral form”
Well you better tell that to your speakers and to gurinder who are all mis-informed as they say they are the same. Obviously you have higher knowledge you speak from.
“There is no effort to go anywhere. Only just to be there, where we actually are, at peace. That’s the whole effort. The rest of the journey is entirely up to Him. Along the way the initiate learns the art of stilling the mind using the tools they are given in the method, the vows, and the lifestyle of peace, faithfulness, responsibility, kindness and contentment – building the atmosphere. “
Amazing nonsensical statements. If there is no effort to go anywhere – then please explain why the person is meditating? Does he not seek? He wants the results! He wants to get to the radiant for and eventually to sach khand.
That is an effort to go somewhere.
If the purpose is to be there where we actually are, then you dont need to meditate because you are already where you actually are.
This is the kind of nonsense that religious deluded people think. It is full of contradictions and means nothing. Which is why they are deluded.
Can you not see how much nonsense this is?
“Be where you are” – like where else could you be? If not where you are?
“These statements can be verified in the writings of Baba Ji, Maharaji, Bahadur Ji, Great Master, Jamal Singh and Soami Ji.”
You really think that all these people have the same teachings?
Swami Ji smoked a hukka. Why dont the others? Swami Ji did not even have the same initiation and meditation practice as the current RSSB does
Jaimal had no interest in acquiring property or building a large organisation and even warned sawan against it.
Jaimal created the five names initiation – swami ji did not use those fives names of Jot niranjan etc.
Swami Ji teachings are nothing like todays RSSB teachings.
He doesn’t say that no effort in needed or that you are already there
many changes have been made over the years, so much so that it is now completely different from swami and jaimals teachings.
“But you would have to conduct real experiments on RSSB meditators to claim either it is the same, in effect, or is not.”
This is the first statement that you have made that makes any sense. Right now there are no studies on rssb meditation.
“Even Buddha referred to the Divine Sound, along with LeoTzse. And so do Christian mystics (Jesus, St John of the Cross, the monks of the Thelokalia , Frai Louis De Leon, etc ) , Greek mystics (Pythagoras, Plato…) , Persian Mystics (Shams i Tabriz, Rumi …) even western poets (Lord Alfred Tennyson, Emily Dickinson) all refer to the Divine sound, inner music, music of the spheres which pulls the soul into the highest region.”
really?
Are you that brainwashed?
There is no shabd or sound current in buddhism or lau tzu teachings. Go check.
All the other examples also are rssb propoganda to convince followers that this is some ago old practice.
You really think Jesus and the others did RSSB meditation?
RSSB tell lies to make it fit. Logos, “the word” etc do not mean shabd.
This is RSSB propoganga to convince the follower that this method is ancient. It isn’t.

Dear Spencer,
you wrote as follows:
“At the least, conduct your own personal investigation by practicing different methods, according to each school’s guidelines. And then you could at least say what benefit you did or did not gain from each practice.
But you haven’t done that.”
Brian has done exactly that for the RSSB path and decided it is not a valid path and that people continue to folloe because they have acquired belief and not results.
And what does “results” mean anyway?
You, one initiated and jim sutherland, to name a few, have ben following this for quite a while.
What practical results do you have?
Have any of you achieved the final goal of the RSSB practice?
Or are you still on the way?
How do you even know that if you have some results, that they are even valid
and not just delusions?
You don’t have any practical help from anyone. You can make up your own results and have your own beliefs of what you have attained.
As far as I can see, after a lifetime of dedication, most achieve nothing.
The Babani example I quoted is an example. He dedicated his whole life.
Far more than anyone on this forum has done.
He had a personal connection with guru Charan Singh who had great respect for him. Of all the people he could have chosen, he chose to take babani with him on the world tours.
Yet – after all this – Babani died a broken and depressed man.
Put it this way – he certainly did not die as a shining example of the validity of the RSSB path, which is what we would expect from a true and valid path.
Put aside the matter fo the property dispute. How come he was not in the limelight in his latter days.
If you don’t believe the story, then you must have some explanation of why someone as devoted to RSSB as Babani was isolated and depressed in his latter years.
Is that what you would expect from a true pathway to God?
Is that the reward for a lifetime of dedication?
His satsangs are available even now and show he was very knowledgeable and knew the teachings very well and his satsangs were impressive which is why charan singh allowed only his own ana babani satsangs to be available when he banned all others back in the 1980’s

The notion that SHABD is some kind of universal truth and the way of all religions is a myth propagated by radha soami. It is not true.
All religions are not the same. They don’t all teach shabd yoga.
Once you believe this then you think want mat is the only way and only truth.
It is not.
And by the way I am not saying this because I hate rssb or anything like that. It is a simple observation.

Dear RS Sceptic:
I think I understand an issue with your approach. You may not understand what a lie is.
For example, you wrote:
“Even the free langer has gone at the major annual events,
instead food is sold which makes a profit.”
Yet you have failed to provide evidence of the disappearance of a single free langer. And you fail to acknoweldge the very real, current and active Free Langer that has been at the Dera operating every day the Dera is open, for over 70 years, as well as the two free hospitals functioning for over three decades.
But that doesn’t stop you from defending your claim that free langers at annual events have been discontinued. It isn’t true, and you promote it as truth. That is what a lie is. A lie you continue to defend without any evidence, or corroboration from independent witnesses.
You wrote:
“food is sold which makes a profit.”
There is no profit in any of the meals that are served at any Dera function. And you have no evidence of profit in that function. But you claim it as truth. Even knowing you have no evidence. That is what a lie is.
So, two lies, defended heavily but without any evidence.
That is your theme, Sceptic.
Why would someone believe your words without corroboration?
That would be prejudice. Lot’s of people love Donald Trump. He never speaks the truth. But he says things people like to believe. Mostly they are negative accusations of other people: Hispanics, Muslims, etc…..
So there is always an audience for bigotry. But that doesn’t make it truth. It’s still a lie.
And it is appropriate to call out such lies.
Then you returned to the Babani story in your last post, which slanders both Maharaji and Krishan Babani, without authorship, without any independent corroboration, and no permissions.
Babani was a great man, as was Maharaji. The story has no author, no reliable credibility, no independent verification. We don’t know how he actually passed away.
You had claimed earlier you didn’t know if it was true. That was a truthful statement.
But now you cling to the Babani narrative and claim it is fact.
You wrote:
“Yet – after all this – Babani died a broken and depressed man.”
Actually, RS, you don’t really know how Babani died at all. This unchecked narrative could be an invention. But your statement that Babani actually did die broken and depressed is a declaration that it is true, as far as you know. But you admitted earlier you don’t really know. Therefore claimiing Babani died broken and depressed as if you know it is true, when you acknowleged you don’t know (and said before you didn’t care if it was true) is the very definition of a lie.
You either lied when you consented you didn’t actually know, or you lie here claiming Babani died a broken and depressed man.
You can’t claim not to know, and then assert this is what actually happened. And in neither case provide any evidence. That assertion by definition a lie.
So you are passing it off as truth when even you have acknowledged earlier that you have no evidence. This could just be the slanderous account of a like-minded person. The story is not slander by itself. It could be just fiction. It could be true but we don’t know. It becomes slander in your hands, with the way you are promiting it and publishing it as truth. In this way the story becomes slander and you become the slanderer.
So why spread rumors that accuse of wrongdoing, and present them as fact? When you don’t actually know if it is true?
That is hatred.
And hatred appears to be another term you do not yet understand. See comments above re; Trump.

Dear RS Sceptic:
You wrote:
“RSSB tell lies to make it fit. Logos, “the word” etc do not mean shabd.”
No, RS Sceptic. Any serious student of sacred literature knows this truth about the Logos, Memra, Word of God.
Take a little tour of ancient literature with me, Sceptic. It’s a beautiful journey.
Shabd, or the audible Spirit of God, the intermediary between Lord and Mankind, has been taught by so many, many mystics from the earliest to more recent times:
“He who brings the celestial Melody down from the blissful skies, alone is my Master.”
Paltu
And from the Judeo Christian tradition:
Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire,
But my ears you have pierced,
Burnt offerings and sin offerings
You did not require.
Then I said, “Here I am, I have come
It is written about me in the scroll.
I desire to do your will, O my God;
Your law is within my heart.”
Psalm (40:6-8)
Word, Memra, Logos are the same in ancient Judaica, the audible Spirit that connect us to the Lord and to each other. This is specifically found throughout the Targums, the Aramaic gospels at the time Jesus lived. He promoted the Logos, or Memra, extensively, just like his predecessor, Philo.
First, the Logos / Shabd / Audible sound of God from the Old Testament:
” Now memra is the Aramaic for “word”, which, in the Greek, is Logos. You will find it in Strong’s Concordance. It is Strong’s number 565: ‘imrah im-raw’ or memrah {em-raw’}; feminine of 561, and meaning the same:–commandment, speech, word. (Note: some editions of Strong’s do not use the word, memrah for the Aramaic equivalent; instead they use emrah, leaving off the first “m”).
In those cases mentioned above, the memra, or Word, shared the nature of God and at the same time was a messenger from God. Hence the phrase, the Angel of the LORD, because an angel is a messenger of God. The Angel of the LORD is a theophany or a manifestation of God to man, that is, God coming face to face with man. A good example is the Garden of Eden:
Gen 3:8 “And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.”
The Targums read more or less: “And they heard the Word or memra of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Word or memra of God amongst the trees of the garden.”
The concept of the memra is derived from Psalm 33:6: “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.”
The personified Word is also mentioned in some other places:
Psa 147:15 “He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly.”
Isa 55:10-11 “For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: {11} So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”
In the passage from the Psalms, the Word is shown as running like a man. And in Isaiah the Word goes out and accomplishes the will of God.
The New Testament also declares the supremacy of the Logos:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ”
John 1:1
And this is an ancient truth:
From the Rig Veda, mankind’s oldest religious text (see The Upanishads, as translated by Shearer and Russell)
First, there is Brahman, Lord of all,
With whom there is vach, the Word,
And the word, verily is Brahman.
Rig Veda
The name to which mankind may hold
Is not the eternal way.
Eternal truths cannot be told
In what men write or say.
The name that may be named by man
Is not the eternal name
That was before the world began
Or human language came.
In that the namable took root,
The tree of fire and force,
Which, having blossomed and borne fruit,
Returns then to its source.
Who warms his body at that fire,
Sees nothing but its smoke;
But he who puts aside desire,
The flame’s self may invoke.
The Tao of LeoTse
(Written 400 BC)
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither
it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:8
I Listen to the Sound of God, and it is the only thing I attend to now, like the sound of the flute in the ears of the mystic.
Socrates (Phaedo by Plato [written 450 BC])
And from the Christian mystic of the Rennaissance, Fray Luiis De Leon:
“Before that holy song
My soul, submerged in its oblivion,
Recovers sense and long
Forgotten memory in
Its dazzling and primordial origin.
And having knowledge of
Itself, it comes alive in thought and fate,
And has contempt, above
All, for mere gold, the bait
Of blind mobs, or beauty in its false state.
Piercing the air, the soul
Reaches into the very highest sphere
And there it hears a wholly different mode:
Imperishable music, first and without peer.
It sees the way the grand
Master works the immense zither, and the way
He shapes the holy strand
Of sound with dextrous play,
By which that deathless temple is sustained.
…
Here the soul sails around
Inside a sea of sweetness, and finally wheels
About and then is drowned
So that it hears or feels
Nothing that foreign accident reveals.
O happy deep collapse!
O death conferring life! O sweet oblivion!
Now let me never lapse
Into the low, vile run
Of senses! Let my rest in you be won!”
And from more recent centuries…Lord Alfred Tennyson:
“A thousand summers ere the time of Christ,
From out his ancient city came a Seer
….
If thou wouldst hear the Nameless, and wilt dive
Into the temple-cave of thine own self,
There, brooding by the central alter, thou
Mayest haply learn the Nameless hath a voice,
By which thou wilt abide, if thou be wise,
As if though knewest, tho’ thou canst not know;
For knowledge is the swallow on the lake
That sees and stirs the surface-shadow there
But never yet hath dipt into the abysm,
The abysm of all abysms, beneath, within
The blue of sky and sea, the green of earth,
And in the million-millionth of a grain
Which cleft and cleft again for evermore,
And ever vanishing, never vanishes,
To me, my son, more mystic than myself,
Or even than the Nameless is to me
…
And when thou sendest thy free soul thro’ heaven,
Nor understandest bound nor boundlessness,
Thou seest the Nameless of the hundred names.
And if the Nameless should withdraw from all
They frailty counts most real, all thy world
Might vanish like thy shadow in the dark.”
The Ancient Sage

I made a comment earlier:
“In Charan Singh’s time there were no packed lunches and no donation boxes when he went to international centres for large scale satsangs.
This is simply the truth. At that time it was not commercialised.
Charan singh was no businessman.
Now things are different.”
No response to that comment. Is that comment also a lie?
You said before that only dera beas has free langar.
It turns out that your statement was a lie.
because other centres in india also have free langer.
so – you are a liar.
Oh – I know – perhaps you don’t know what a lie is!
You write such nonsense.
and you don’t address any of the points that are valid
You simply ignore them.
I have already stated that I was referring to the UK and international events.
I have no knowledge if they ever had free langar. But there is none now.
Even you may not know – unless you have visited all the international centres.
If other centres in india have free langar – how can you be sure that no international has free langar (in the past or now)
The point is, there are packed lunches – and there never used to be.
here’s a breakdown of cost. an apple 10p, a granola bar 10p
a small low quality wrap 30p. Small tropicana juice 50p
That makes a total of £1 leaving a profit of £1.50
It might cost them slightly more, in which case the profit might be £1
All I am saying is there is a profit.
Now I don’t care if there is a profit – if i was the guru I would do the same
I am simply pointing out that RSSB is now commercialized.
In charan singhs time I never saw a packed lunch
or a donation box.
Can you explain what has changed?
instead of going on about “Oh I caught you lying”
which I can also do since you lied and have not yet addressed the point,
why don’t you address the core issue
which is what has changed.
Why did charan singh not have donations boxes ? It was easy to do.
let me answer, since you are never going to respond.
He never had donation boxes or packed lunches because he was not trying to make money from the sangat that had gathered.
You still have not addressed the point I have made many times.
so I will make it again.
What is the need of donation boxes?
especially as they have always insisted on receipts before.
donation boxes do not give receipts.
so has there been a change of policy and why?
can you address this point?
or am I lying. perhaps I made it up. there are no donation boxes
or you can claim they were always there.
The donation boxes are put there so the donations will be higher.
Was charan singh not interested in more donations?
do you have a response?

Dear Spencer,
the quotes above do not prove anything.
It is untrue that all religions have shabd or sound current as their central core teaching.
for example RSSB claims in their books that TAO is also the shabd.
but it’s not.
You can make anything fit by quoting it out of context.
that is what RSSB do. They make it fit.

Dear Sepncer, you wrote that
“Any serious student of sacred literature knows this truth about the Logos, Memra, Word of God.”
No, it is not true. The only people that make that statement are those who are brainwashed by RSSB propaganda.
RSSB books makes lots of untrue statements.
I have already given some examples.
(1) Jaimal was appointed by Swami to go to punjab.
this is no more true than Kirpal’s claim to be appointed by sawan.
Where is your corroborated evidence, since you don’t believe anything without evidence?
Swami also was not the appointed successor of Tulsi nor ghardhari das which means he was self appointed.
so the RSSB books lie – again – no response from you on these points.
What the RSSB books do make clear is that charan had no idea he had been appointed the successor and when he did – he was shocked and truthfully said that he had no spiritual progress.
so – how can he be the successor if he has no spiritual progress?
The teachings from swami say that the a sant satguru reaches sach khand and if he doesn’t he cannot operate as guru.
charan never claimed any spiritual merit.

regarding the issue around Babani.
do you have any evidence to contradict the story on the internet?
Then you have no evidence to refute the story.
one this is certain – he was not doing satsangs or seva or associating with RSSB satsangis.
The question is – for such a high profile follower, why was this?
How come he wasn’t given a special position in Gurinder’s reign?
He certainly deserved it.
lots of unanswered questions at the very least even if you don’t believe the whole babani account on the internet
probably would be easy to find the truth – anyone in the sawan sadan area will know the position

Dear RS Sceptic
The lunches are a huge convenience for thousands of Satsangis and Sevadars. A big, big improvement. We get fed quickly and easily. Talk to the Satsangis themselves to understand if it’s a huge improvement from the days when both Sevadars and Satsangis were greatly pressed with the logistics of feeding huge crowds in dozens of cities with no infrastructure, and little time. This makes it easier for Gurindar and his lovers to get together easily.
As for the Mystic traditions of so much international literature, what a shame you have no taste for it. I find it stunning.
But each to their own.
You may proceed to count the cost of an apple and a bottle of water, even while neglecting a much more valuable commodity slipping through your negligent fingers. Your precious time and attention.

Dear Spencer,
I have no doubt that the packed lunches are a great convenience. I did not say they were not.
As a matter of fact, I am in favor of the packed lunches at £2.50
I consider it is a good idea.
and the free market proves it is a good idea. The fact that people buy it in very large numbers is the proof. It is an excellent idea and is very successful. It makes RSSB at least £1 per pack sold, which is a good return.
Like I said, Gurinder is a great businessman.
If I was the guru I would do exactly what Gurinder has done.
If fact I would charge £3.50 for the packed lunch. because the people are hungry after listening for three or four hours to stupid questions and jokes in reply to the questions.
They will gladly pay the £3.50 and will even say that I am doing it for no profit.
Very few will complain. Not too many sceptics around.
However, that is not the point we are discussing. We are debating if there is profit in the lunch, I don’t care to count the cost of an apple, but have simply given you are cost breakdown to show there is profit.
Personally I think it is a good idea that there is a profit. Why do all that work for no profit? In that case you might as well do what Charan singh did and not bother with it.
Not sure why you mention international literature and how that is relevant to what we were discussing.
you have still not addressed the point I have now made many times about the lies in the RSSB books about successorship.
You say you are a great believer in evidence, but dont apply this to statements in RSSB books.
why not?
my precious time and attention is slipping through my fingers?
time will always pass. you cannot store it in a time bank.
It is being used, not wasted.
only the RSSB believer thinks it is being wasted because he should be meditating and trying to gain spiritual merit, not comment on this blog.

a man called Balwinder has commented on here about how he was treated by RSSB and that Gurinder did nothing for him and did not even grant him an interview.
Now this one is not hearsay. He is a real person and has given is email address.
you have all the evidence you need.
email him, call him, meet him, check if it is true.
but of course, you will not do that, because you don’t care about the truth, just as you do not in the Babani case.
you just want to make it appear that RSSB is above criticism and perfect.
Instead of just saying that the Babani case is a lie, why don’t you investigate?
of course, you could say it is too much effort and you would rather meditate.
In which case, investigate the claims of this guy on this blog. Surely that is not too much effort?
That is, if you are interested in the truth at all, which I suspect you are not

The Targums read more or less:
“And they heard the Word or memra of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Word or memra of God amongst the trees of the garden.”
I like this
It’s extremely clear concerning the actual state of affairs
This Sound is in every 7 Chakras entity in the universes
But we can just ignore !
Like closing the oxygen 90%
777
–
BTW
The apple must be meat, a steak
It slows chakra rotations of all 7 chakras
The uric acid in the blood is God’s fire wall against cruelty
and the sound becomes as best a very distant echo

Attachement to this Sound
I like very much the story in Sawan s Miracles book of King Akbar or Ashoka ( i forgot),
any way the priests came in for audience
and to their amazement at least , the King was laying on a big bad
and a lot of beautiful girls were massaging him
Next the king sais : Come closer
and the saw he was laying on red hot iron plates
Then He said : ” This has the same effect on me a That ”
to my humble opinion meaning
that he was to much absorbed in that sweet beautiful ecstatic Divine Sound
than really attending protocols
May we all live like that <3 . . . with zero hypocrisy
777

Sceptic,
Yes, You are right.
Upon further thinking on all your logics, I actually happened to observe that you are quite right.
We don’t know whether Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj were a True Saint and appointed Master, we don’t even know HIS Master’s appropriate name.
Also, there is no written will of Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj giving the successorship to Soami Ji Maharaj, which in turns somehow proves that Soami Ji Maharaj were also not an appointed Master.
So, given this observation, I would agree with you that the whole Radha Soami Lineage is actually not that credible. And in fact then we don’t even need to point out any further accusations on RSSB, because it’s credibility is already been proven to be not that up to the mark even at the foundation level.
And in such an organisation where we are not even so sure about the founders, I think anyone can expect the happenings on tunes of paid packed lunches with profits, construction of big centres, cases like babani and the recent one of some balwinder which you mentioned. I would say these are all fairly expected incidents and I am not that surprised actually. Those doesn’t even need the mentioning.
So yeah, I have come to a conclusion that you are quite right in your findings.
Along with discussions on the online forums,
the best we can do for today is to spend a few hours whole heartedly filled with love in any style of meditation which is best suited to us as an individual OR in any thing which gives us that inner peace and that inner bliss. OR simply something which gives us that soothing happiness.
(Love, peace, bliss and happiness are quite subjective terms which are very hard to describe for any individual).
Lots of love to you and everyone.
Radha Soami Ji.

Dear one initiated,
It’s not a matter of if we know Tulsi was a true master.
Tulsi sahib was the family guru and Swami Ji’s parents followed his path.
Obviously there is no written will appointing swami Hi because he did not appoint swami Ji and in fact Swami Ji himself followed Girdhari Sahib who was
the appointed successor to Tulsi Sahib.
Only when Girdhari appointed his own successor (and it wasn’t Swami Ji)
and after Girdhari passed away, only then did Swami set himself up as a guru.
He did not set up while Girdhari was alive because he treated him like a guru. In fact it is even possible that he was actually initiated by Girdhari and not Tulsi.
Similar to Kirpal. When Sawan appointed S Bahadur, Kirpal claimed he was appointed and started his own mission.
Its just that RSSB takes exception to Kirpal’s actions and don’t acknowledge their own roots as having the same scenario.
back in the day, this information was not freely available so ti was easy to fool the followers. However, these days with the internet and global communication, the truth has emerged and it doesn’t look good for RSSB.
Hence Gurinder’s advice to his disciples to stay away from the internet

Dear RS Sceptic:
You wrote:
“you have still not addressed the point I have now made many times about the lies in the RSSB books about successorship.”
Yes, I addressed the issue numerous times, but clearly you do not like the answer.
Here it is again: The entire history of records is a history of forgery and censorship. Names can be added to one document, and names can be deleted from others. Several copies of a will, several different testimonies by the several signatories, certainly that does help. But it’s a ball of yarn at best. Why waste time on it?
Therefore, since there are interested and biased parties, especially in matters of a legal will, or a family tree (with fueding members trying to erase each other’s branches…which is why these are best written on parchment, that can be erased and re-written upon several times) who can say?
For that reason I have always adopted a different approach. The one I mentioned that Sawan Singh recommended.
Do your own research. Pick the path, be it atheism, mysticism, or pure philosophy, and pursue that. If it works for you, share that. If it doesn’t, don’t get stuck on what isn’t working. Try something else, seek advice, find better teachers / teachings…etc…
You wrote:
“You say you are a great believer in evidence, but dont apply this to statements in RSSB books.”
I love the RSSB books, but the only thing I can actually test are the teachings, the practice of meditation. So that is my source of evidence, and sadly for you, it’s non-transferrable.
But for me, it is first hand evidence, and daily.
Sadly for you, you are relying upon fourth hand old documentation by people who died long ago, that may have been doctored by hidden interested parties after they died, whose names we will never know, just like the Holy Bible.
The Holy Bible has many fine truths about love. And a few hateful statements added by bigots down through history.
So I say, take what works for you.
But if you try to prove something in a will or a document, or any book is factual, something third, fourth hand or worse, without authorship, something based on rumor, inuendo, then you should be able to test it. And not being able to test it you should not waste any time.
Because you are spending time on something that can not be proven to YOU first hand. Only by inference, only by circumstantial and specious evidence. Nothing scientific at all.
Yet you are spending all your time on these fourth hand rumors and old documents choosing to believe one document over another.
You should not claim one document is true because you like the idea, but without any supporting evidence.
I wasn’t seeking a lineage. I wasn’t seeking a teacher. But what that Teacher said, struck me like lightening. And then the lightening, and the refulgence of an intersteller voyage, became some of the wealth of evidence that I have acquired. First hand.
And I believe that is the best use of time, learning and using something true for you, rather than expounding over and over again with an accusing finger pointing into darkness, a place you cannot actually see into…the past, and the inner realms, even the truth about the present.
And if my personal experiences can’t be transferred, neither can your lack of evidence over old documents. Your judgment is based on your preference. And that also is not transferrable. But biased minds tend to gravitate towards one another.
So, at least make your evidence first hand, Sceptic. Why continue to soil yourself with rumors, slander and forgery, when you can choose to go for your own first-hand evidence?

Dear Spencer,
Here is the issue with your response
That is exactly Kirpal’s viewpoint.
He said “get first hand knowledge and decide for yourself”
“Get the inner light – the true guru gives you capital to start with”
He also said if the path you follow does not give results, leave it
and seek another master and don’t waste the human birth.
With this reply of yours, you cannot then condemn this gurmeet Rahim
because his followers claim their own experience too.
Also we are no longer talking about wills etc.
History shows that Girdhari was the appointed successor
Swami Ji never even claimed to be the successor and was not even a guru
and in fact went to girdhari and treated him as a guru.
If he had claimed guru status, like kirpal had, it would be different.
It’s just after the event the RSSB books made that claim, not swami.
Swami never claimed any wills, documents etc. He did not claim any
successorship. The wills idea started with sawan and that is why kirpal
contested it claiming that spirituality is never given through wills, only property is.
He said, that spirituality is transferred through the eyes as he claimed to have received it. So I am saying that the RSSB claim that Swami was the successor to Tulsi sahib Is a lie.
You can of course say, as you have, that you don’t care as you have inner experience which is all that matters.
The people to went with Kirpal took exactly that stance.
They said who cares about fake wills when Kirpal clearly has the power as he gives light on initiation and RSSB does not.
The majority of RSSB followers are still in darkness even after twenty years of meditation,
So the idea of getting light on initiation has it’s attraction.
However it turns out that anyone can give light, it’s no big deal as there is a lot of self deception when the initiate wants to see light.
Hence all the kirpal successors ask about what colour light each initiate saw, which kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing because people will naturally see some forms and colours when they close their eyes, only they don’t normally make a song and dance about it.
It’s kind of like a psychological trick.

Sceptic,
If it matters whether Soami Ji Maharaj were the True Master or not, then it also matters whether even the Tulsi Saheb Ji were the True Master or not.
I have the simple following questions for you, if you can answer them precisely ?
(fyi: I do not have answers to these so I am genuinely seeking the answers from you)

1. How do you know Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj were the guru of family members of Soami Ji Maharaj ?
2. How do you know Maharaj Girdhari Saheb were officially appointed by Tulsi Saheb Ji Maharaj
3. Who was Tulsi Saheb’s Master and how do you know Tulsi Saheb’s Master did appoint HIM as the successor ?

It will be of great help for everyone if you can provide the answers of these questions.
Also, in our last conversation we discussed that let’s all of us spend a few hours in meditation (or something which brings you happiness).
I want to know how many hours you meditate daily ? Or do you even meditate at all ? If yes, till where you have reached ? Can you share your inner experiences with us ?
If you do not meditate then are you seeking a path to start your meditation ?
If you are not at all seeking / exploring the path, what are you trying to achieve by proving all these things ?

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“With this reply of yours, you cannot then condemn this gurmeet Rahim
because his followers claim their own experience too.”
You are mistaking the testimony of others with one’s own experience, and conflating this with a court verdict.
A court verdict and named witnesses’ testimony, where the witnesses underwent trial and cross examination, has greater validity than old lineages, where the participants and the writers are no longer here to undergo examination. We can’t determine what was deleted or added to the original, if there ever was an original.
And as far as the efficacy in a Guru for your own life, that cannot rest with someone else’s testimony.
You are confused. I understand.
Trust your own sentiment, but don’t go so far as to claim it is a universal truth, because you are not omniscient. And it follows, if you understand you are not omniscient, that you avoid further condemning as delusional those who disagree with you.
For example, I have provided evidence in spiritual literature down through the ages about the Audible Spirit.
But that is not proof of the spirit. It is evidence those authors experienced something similar, which they heard as ecstatic music, which they claim is connected to God, and which they write both made and sustains the creation.
Could just by something built into human physiology. And some metaphor, and poetry. But the fact that these reports come from independent sources separated by thousands of years gives anecdotal support that they underwent a similar transcendent experience.
Evidence for that experience is there. Not evidence for “God”, by any human definition. Not evidence for soul. Just evidence of this very similar transcendent personal, inner experience.
Conclusive proof, at least personally conclusive, can only be when you witness the same things, under your control. Then you will know that it isn’t imagination or delusion, but an actual internal experience. And then you can determine for yourself greater detail about it. And that is about as far as you can go, without mounting a study on the particular form of meditation and its physiological and psychological effects.

dear one initiated,
1. it is well known that Tulsi was the family guru. Many sources. Even RSSB books.
2. Girdhari Sahib was the appointed successor (there may have been others too) and swami closely associated with Girdhari
(Sources are quoted below)
3. Dariya Sahib of Bihar is the most likely guru of Tulsi
or could be one of his successors
source:
http://santmatradhasoami.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/the-origins-of-sant-mat-five-names-and.html
other sources, to list a few:
The article, “Maharaj Girdhari Sahib — The ‘Unknown Guru’ of Radhasoami History”:
https://medium.com/sant-mat-meditation-and-spirituality/maharaj-girdhari-sahib-a-spiritual-successor-of-sant-tulsi-sahib-and-friends-with-soami-ji-maharaj-2f8ffcb7d342
the guru of tulsi:
https://medium.com/sant-mat-meditation-and-spirituality/sant-mat-history-who-was-tulsi-sahibs-guru-our-one-and-only-real-clue-8168c6183278
the rest I will answer shortly

Dear One-Initiated,
I do not meditate and I do not buy into the belief of meditation.
Meditation is a belief of sant mat and RSSB.
If you was a muslim, you would have been asking me
“How many times a day do you pray?”
The assumption is that the meditation or the praying is some special practice that bears fruit and connects the disciple to God.
I am simply commenting to show that this is a belief.
I have no reason. I don’t care if you agree or disagree.
I am simply pointing out the obvious things which the followers of any religion cannot see because of their belief.
I will never follow any path because they are all for the believers and I am not a believer.

Dear RS Sceptic
You wrote
“I am simply pointing out the obvious things which the followers of any religion cannot see because of their belief.
I will never follow any path because they are all for the believers and I am not a believer.”
I get that, but why spend so much time on the lineages. Tulsi, Swami Ji… Etc… By your standard are all delusional, since they all speak of direct experience of God.
Why would you spend two seconds on something you don’t actually believe, let alone hours upon hours criticizing it?
Just trying to understand your psychology..

Dear Spencer,
This is the rest of the reply I promised.
The testimony of others is only called “the testimony of others” only by you.
To THEM – it is their experience and their proof and very real.
In the same way – your experience is called by them “the testimony of others” and holds no value.
Each one trusts only their own experience and it appears real and valid.
however, they all miss the point
that all experience is fallable. Just because I have seen inside, does not mean it is true. I can still be deluded.
Just because I am CONVINCED, does not mean it is the truth.
It just means I am convinced.
and something very strange happens once you believe
you collect all evidence to prove you are right
and dismiss all evidence against your position.
That is what I call delusional.
I don’t need to have followed that path or met that guru to say the followers
are delusional. They are delusional because they believe without real evidence.
Personal belief is not evidence. it just means that you are convinced.
Just as below the people are convinced 100% that they are Jesus
I gave the example before about the man who claims to be jesus
he believes he really is Jesus – it is his experience – but it is not true.
Here he is on national TV – making the claim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Sj2xwNDs8
he has such a huge following and people sing his praises and say he makes them happy because they have found the truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzmcpJE-_m4
when accused that it is a cult he says (see last 20 secs of the above video)
he says “If it is a cult – it is best cult – because it is the truth”
only thing he died unexpectedly – so it’s too late to follow him now.
if you snooze, you lose.
but don’t worry – this man has come to the rescue
he claims to be the son of God. No shortage of gurus.
Just as in sant mat – one master dies and ten claim successorship
Why? because it’s good business.
Let me share a little secret here (if you promise to keep it a secret)
It always appears to EVERY PERSON – that MY TRUTH is THE TRUTH
and everyone else (poor bastards) is deluded.
I admit that I too hold this same position
that my truth (namely that there is no true guru or master) is
THE TRUTH and everyone else is deluded.
Could I be wrong? and there is a real master out there?
or a real jesus come back?
yeah – sure I could, but it’s not likely
just as pigs could fly – but it’s not likely
just as unicorns could exist – but it’s not likely
just as there could really be a God – but it’s not likely
just as Spencer could be right – but it’s not likely
just as the Babani story could be made up – but it’s not likely
just as Gurinder could be a real master – but it’s not likely
could I be mistaken in my position? – yes – but it’s not likely
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUpp_UrnjFc
“I am not a con man – I am not trying to non people – I am speaking the truth”
Hmmmm…..
which master will you follow?
the followers all have their reasons to follow.
people are easily led and duped because they are so keen to find the truth
so they find many truths
and they are convinced that theirs is the real truth
but not this Sceptic (meaning me) because I know how easily the mind is duped into thinking it has found the truth – I call it being delusional.

Hi RS Sceptic
Now I’ll share a little secret with you, too. No human being will ever know a truth that isn’t limited to a personal truth. All the data in the world is just history, and while you might think history, at least, cannot be refuted, it’s gone. To believe it you must have faith in a community of people you think deal in truth, maybe scientists. But they are also quite fallible. Living in a world of notions, picking and choosing what to believe. It’s really a toy shop for the mind. And no toy is more valuable than any other. All thoughts are inventions.
And here is a second secret. No new idea had any history to defend it. It had to be shepherded into reality by something you would call delusional, vision.
Even the phone you read this on, and the laptop you type on. Started as a delusion someone believed in.

Dear Spencer,
I do not call innovation delusional.
when a person has a concept and a belief (like shabd) and makes it fit inot other religions- that is delusional.
Believing in things that cannot be proved is delusional.
This is not the same as innovation. Innovation challenges assumptions and widens what is possible.
What is the you think of the Jesus claimants?

“”” Even the phone you read this on, and the laptop you type on. Started as a delusion someone believed in. “””
What if inner Sound & Darshan ( Love ) wiil soon be amplified by
holographic, 5D, . . . not 4K but 32K resolutions
as I described here a few years ago
777
please Juan , read between my words

“”””Could I be wrong? and there is a real master out there? “””””
God wouldn’t be God if HE couldn’t hide Himself in a perfect way
and show Herself eventually in a perfect way.
777
<3

Dear 777,
You wrote,
“What if inner Sound & Darshan ( Love ) wiil soon be amplified by
holographic, 5D, . . . not 4K but 32K resolutions
as I described here a few years ago 777
please Juan , read between my words “
Thanks, I was wondering whether it’s a good idea?
With unemployment rising all over the globe, if something of this sort happens, would that not leave all the Masters unemployable or useless?

“” all the Masters unemployable or useless? “”
Ha ha, Hear, hear
No it makes their life harder
because disciples will want to be served this way 24/7
so more Masters will be at “work” 😉
I mean it
The purpose will be quantitative easing
and quality ( which is still inside ) will suffer initially somewhat
but Grace will rain
and the complete planet will be initiated , even Kal
and be cared for
Climate conditions will make all this a necessity
777
PS
I think I’m writing above my pay-grade

“all the Masters unemployable or useless?”
Ha ha, Hear, hear
No it makes their life harder
because disciples will want to be served this way 24/7
so more Masters will be at “work” 😉
I mean it
….HAZUR MAHARAJ CHARAN SINGH could only produce One True Master during after reigning for FOUR DECADES & BABJI DON GURINDER SINGH DHILLON even after reigning nearly THREE DECADES has not been able to produce not even a single MASTER.
….So, the question is from where will be the supply of these Masters? Is the Lord going to send them directly?

Dear Juan,
Personally I don’t consider even the ones you have mentioned are masters. Whatever masters are!
Charan Singh I don’t think was out to produce lots of masters.
Swami Ji did, because he split the duties between different people. He considered that one person would not be able to handle everything.
Notice also that Jaimal was not featured within his list of people.
Kirpal also produced many ‘masters’ but they were not exactly friends and working together.
and this raises an interesting point.
If these so called masters were all advanced, how come they did not co-operate and teach together, instead of each claiming to be the only and true master.
Also, in Swami ji’s time how come there were lawsuits over who gets the property. Seems it was all about property and wealth.

“””” THREE DECADES has not been able to produce not even a single MASTER.
….So, the question is from where will be the supply of these Masters? Is the Lord going to send them directly? “”””
Hééé Juan
That s a lot of hypothesis
How would we know that Charan had only One ?
Why would God need a Satch Khand Level person for such job
HE can make any man-mukh in a Super Saint in a Second
He just takes care of all with a tiny bit of symphaty for HIM and beyond
No Path was ever more glorious
The target Soul just falls in Love and is “bewitched” – – therefore the farizeers can’t understand
OMG – Wauuuuw
777
–
How would we know He had not > a Million Satch Khand level admirers ?