How I became disillusioned with a guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Problem with gurudom philosophies / sant mat / sufism / devotional systems based on guru or murshid is that they fail to deliver rapidly what that they promise. Why they fail to deliver rapidly ??
They are trying to douse the mind by invoking emotions of blind love for guru / murshid and his injunctions.
Blind faith numbs the mind initially but its side effects are detrimental to disciple.
Output vs Input ratio is poor in devotional systems . In breath control based Yogic systems no blind faith on any guru is required so the disciple is saved from side effects of blind faith.
Effect of numbing mind by controlling breath is achieved rapidly . Why such yogic systems are not promoted by sant mat organisations ?? They might be having intrinsic fear of collapse of sant mat / sufism / devotional systems.

No category has been assigned to such an important system of Yoga . Akin to best kept secret of ” Manhattan Project ” which can disrupt / shred any metaphysical philosophy within minutes.

He was in Spain working before coming back to India to accept his naming as the next religious head of RSSB in 1990.

Breath control over a period of time freezes mind & etheric realm opens up which is called out of body experience / samadhi . Body is suspended in hibernation . Himalayan Mystics hid from the people that they are abiding in energy of etheric realm .
Fifteen minutes of breath control can prove it how it numbs mind , how thoughts vanish .
Due to unnecessary secrecy of science of breath / yoga ; religions & metaphysical philosophies started pushing people on the path of blind faith / devotion / gurudom / murshid .

There is no such thing as a master.
Everyone is born equal.
We are human beings and nobody has the answers.
Nobody has special powers
But people are gullible
As children we believe in Santa Claus
And the tooth fairy
We grow up and realise there is no santa
But we still want to believe
So we believe in
Mediums
Tarot cards
Astrology
Religions
God
Masters
Why?
Because as children we believed
And something must fill the vacuum left behind
We like to believe
Makes us feel good
It feels good to know there is a god looking after us
But there isn’t
It feels good that there are masters
But there are not. Just charlatans
And brainwashed mental people like 777
Who lost the plot long ago
And talk gibberish
And some idiots mistake it for wisdom
Maybe 777 qualifies for being the next master

Thank you Brian for replying to my question – I noticed so much about the master at Haynes and I am more observant than most. It is a con I am afraid perhaps Dan Brown can investigate and write a novel which will eclipse the Da Vinci Code. Talking of which I believe master was said that Da Vinci was master etc. Really ? He prosposed advanced weapons ahead of his time and starved a town under siege killing 2 thousand people by using his genious to divert a river which took water there. Fascinating hey
Thank you again – Arjuna

Does anyone have access to the TIME magazine article written by Dr. Khanna? it doesn’t seem to be available on Google anymore.

Raghu, it was a letter to the editor in a Canadian TIME magazine issue. There’s still a post about it on the Yahoo RadhaSoami Studies group. See:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/topics/52562
But probably you have to be a member of the group to see it. I’ve copied it in below. Dr. Khanna is referring to Shania Twain (singer?) being associated with RSSB.
DR. J.K. has gone public. Charan’s and RSSB former rep. We should get
him to join this group. Welcome Back CTD!
———————————————————————-
— In radhasoamistudies@yahoogroups.com, connectthedots_99
wrote:
> This excerpt was published in the Canadian circulation Dec 30 issue
> of TIME letters. (the US circulation included only domestically
> originated letters).
>
> “I was struck by the lack of joie de vivre in photos of Shania and
> the observation by some that she had become a robot. The story
> mentioned that Shania was a devotee of Sant Mat, a strain of Sikh
> mysticism. She may rediscover the sparkle in her life by letting
go

I’ve heard in years past that Gurinder is quite wealthy from stock investments in the pharma industry via family connections. Any concrete data on this?

Gurinder has said that it is not “Perfect Master”
he said that the translation of “PURA GURU” is wrong
it means “COMPLETE” nor perfect.
The word “perfect” has all sorts of connotations.
Whereas “complete” is a pretty ordinary word.
With the internet, it’s hard to hide facts.
in the past – it was easy. Just make a claim and it’s done.
So Gurinder has watered it all down.
so the new teachings are that he has no special powers
he is not coming at your death
this is not the only path
he is not perfect
there are no regions
meditation will not get you there
there is no ‘there’ to get to
RSSB followers should be freaking out
and saying “What the fuck?”
but instead – they just go into denial and say
“nothing has changed. everything is the same”

Hi Osho,
Everything is changed very true.
What is the difference between ´perfect and ´ćomplete actually??
The teachings and atmosphere..everything is changed.
Also maharaji Charan Singh didńt want buildings everywhere.
The current master does just that..
Maharaji said he stand garant for the diciple babaji says not never such a thing etc..
..etc.

Sceptic,
“And brainwashed mental people like 777”
Try to be a little more generous Sceptic. 777 is around 80 years of age and is one of the most spiritually advanced around this forum.
Those who are blessed and have HIS Amazing Grace are able to understand the bits from what 777 writes here.
If we remove everything on this blog except Brian’s and 777’s content, this will become one of the very popular book on Sant Mat.

Gross body = Physical body
Astral body = Thoughts
Causal body = Desires preceding thoughts
Soul = unit of etheric energy
Enlightenment = separating soul from three sheaths of gross , astral & causal bodies.
Logical Method [ not blind faith devotional method ] = step-wise [ not abrupt ] self control / yam niyam / yogic do’s and don’ts regarding diet and vital fluid / semen conservation along-with Yogic breathing to numb mind.
Scientific aspect : Electrons have been revolving around nucleus since billions of years by using energy from etheric realm . There is no diesel generator there to power electrons.
There is enough energy in empty cup to boil all oceans of world.
Himalayan mystics abide in etheric realm of limitless energy. Etheric realm is powering the whole universe by giving energy to electrons and sub atomic particles. Same ether has been mentioned in Albert Einsteins Theory of Relativity.

dear one initiated
you said:
“777 is around 80 years of age and is one of the most spiritually advanced around this forum.
Those who are blessed and have HIS Amazing Grace are able to understand the bits from what 777 writes here.”
Well actually that might explain quite a bit. Maybe he’s getting a bit senile in his old age. It was nothing personal. I just used him as an example. He might be a really nice guy in real life.
It is just that his comments don’t make any sense – and I mean to anyone. Including you.
He writes such cryptic comments that they don’t don;t make any sense at all.
I am sorry if you are offended. It doesn’t seem like he is.
I don’t consider there is any wisdom in his type of comments and he cannot have a logical and meaningful debate with anyone because he is just too far gone.
Maybe that is what happens when you have spent all your like on a spiritual path like RSSB or similar.
I could write the same type of comments. Does it mean I become a man of great wisdom and insight?
Once again – it’s nothing personal.
The main point was – there are no masters, or God, or tooth fairies.

S* wrote:
“Also maharaji Charan Singh didńt want buildings everywhere.
The current master does just that..”
They are very different characters. Charan Singh was very meticulous in his dealings to make sure he didn’t mis-use his position.
Gurinder Singh is a businessman. He has different priorities. He is on a mission to expand RSSB and make it a significant organisation.
Charan Singh had no such ambitions.
Technically there is nothing wrong with expansion as long as it is done with the same ethics and standards as the teachings apply to the disciples.
Charan Singh was a simple man. He did not want to be responsible for misleading anyone which is why he made it totally clear that he had no spiritual progress. He just did his duty.
That is a very admirable trait, and I personally have a lot of respect for that level of honesty.
Gurinder Singh has also made certain things clear
(1) I am not coming at the time of death.
He could have carried on with the old belief but chose not to.
(2) There are no regions – there is only the ONE
Again he could have continued with the duality teachings
Among the sant mat gurus – I am not aware of any of the others making these bold statements.
The rest of them are carrying on with the same dogma.
And please – don’t say I am making this up – as it’s getting a bit old and by now there is way to much evidence proving that the teachings have been changed.
Gurinder, does not however have any qualms about using his position to make money.

Thanks Osho..Yes I know..
About both of them..
And I loved them..deeply.
But it was my own love and is now just bhakti..
Not for anyone special anymore.
My life was totaly for santmat and master.
But i have had lot of sorrow..more then I could bare(pangs)
That was not good and I felt abondened.
So it is very good to come loose of all that.
The beauty one can keep..
It is very healthy so see for what it really is.
I dońt like the still going on talks about transmigration and the NEED of a Master.
I feel that not as good,people get bound to the ´Master´also out of fear!!
s*

When Baba Faqir Chand asked these gurus ” Do you go anywhere to manifest before disciple?? ”
These gurus could not answer his blunt question . Why ?? Because these gurus are morally corrupt people who can ascribe any natural phenomenon to themselves for gurudom propagation over innocent gullible disciples. After Himalayan Mystics & Jesus Christ , Baba Faqir Chand is the most honest mystic to grace this earth.

s*, you wrote
“My life was totally for santmat and master.”
Well that is what the teachings require. It was also the same for me.
It was a total consuming passion
My life had no meaning other than to reach Sach khand
and hang out with Sat Purush in Anami Desh, no less.
Little did I know at the time that this was just a fairy tale
just like we create the fairy tale of santa claus for our children.
And there was no Sach khand, no Anami and and no Sat Purush
It was all just a fairy tale – to entice the seeker, to feed his ambition.
once you start the path, slowly the realizations dawns.
that all this seeking is nothing but an ego trip.
it is the ego that wants to attain and achieve and get recognized.
It is the ego that wants to get to Sach khand.
The same ambition and greed that wanted things of the world
is just as alive and well – it has just changed direction and is now
after “spiritual” things.
In the meantime (and it’s a long meantime) it satisfies itself with
seva to get the feeling of importance.
If you end up being a head sevadar, speaker or secretary, all the better.
The real path is to let go of the ego, ambition and seeking.
and arrive at now.
Where you always were.
and eventually to realize there is no separate self
there is no “you” so you cannot get anywhere
The master cannot come at death because there is no “you” to take
and nowhere to take you.
Only in duality does this need and desire for self-preservation exist.
Almost every question at haynes park, when the guru comes, is about “I” or “ME”
“Please give me Grace”
“Please come at my death”
“Please help me to meditate”
“Please take me to Sach Khand”
“Please show me your radinat form”
etc
Nobody says “I want nothing”
Yet the sant mat teachings say that the ego is the barrier
The very idea of meditation is full of ego
because the only reason to meditate is to get somewhere
the non-ambitious person cannot meditate
(unless it’s a different type of meditation like zen or Tao based)
If you do everything for a reason, then what is the reason to meditate?
Those who say they are doing it for the love of the master are kidding
themselves, because there is a reason to love
the reason is to get the spiritual treasure which he has
you don’t just love random people walking the streets
the mind is cunning – it always has a reason

@Osho Robbins
Regarding Radiant Form.
Somewhere on this forum, you mentioned that you had reached the Radiant Form.
I believe you have been initiated by multiple masters.
Can you please share whose Radiant Form you saw inside? Was the Radiant Form mind generated? Were you contemplating that particular Master more than others or what do you think led you to see that radiant form? (I am assuming that you don’t believe it was genuine). Can you also please share why you think that seeing that form was not genuine and more of a mind related phenomenon? Is it based on what Fakir Chand said or is there something in your experience that led to that conclusion?

OSHO
So Gurinder has watered it all down.
so the new teachings are that he has no special powers
Correct His Master Charan does it ALL
he is not coming at your death
Correct
His Master does that and uses the form needed
this is not the only path
Correct
Charan confirmed this when he said :
“but I don’t give you the telephone number”
There are Masters who come only for One disciple He said
Of course the Method is the only Method
realize the sweet Sound
he is not perfect
Correct
His Master is
but Gurinder is complete obedient
there are no regions
Correct
but you can make them
There are levels of consciousness, taking form
meditation will not get you there
Correct
Love for the Sound will
Meditation will give Love
there is no ‘there’ to get to
Correct
We are already there but suffer°° ignorance, amnesia & more
RSSB followers should be freaking out
Only to a faster & sweeter Method, . .
and saying “What the fuck?”
You do that, . . . don’t preach !
but instead – they just go into denial and say
“nothing has changed. everything is the same”
You are in the business of to telling people to be less happy
like saying to the bride
” don’T ”
RSSceptic : . . noted
°°
the word suffer is wrong
777
ps
a minor subject :
https://youtu.be/Er9D00DXQQs

Another PS
You are 100%, correct Sceptic
No single line I wrote is understandable for NON-initiated
After all you don’t try to understand the Chinese workgroup of spacial 4-D genetics
You wouldn t insult them but regret your voyage
maybe you r less disappointed now
My age, . . I mentioned 2 or 3 times I guess since I m a member here
Anywat in the middle of millions
who very well understand
2 or 5 non understanders here is not so bad as a result
777
Love <3
-

Hi Ananymous
At the time, I was actively following Darshan, who in my opinion, at that time was the most amazing master.
I was in love with him. He was everything.
Looking back – it was all a lie, because I had so much invested in that path.
I convinced myself that I loved him.
In reality, I was just in love with the idea that I love him, because that was beneficial for my spiritual progress.
I am saying this now – but would never have even enetertained that possibility at that time.
I was brainwashed.
and I consider that all RSSB followers are brainwashed – just as I was.
everything in my experience convinced me 100% that I was on the true path.
Darshan knew me personally. I was close to him. I used to write poetry to him and about him. I was in love.
I even read my poems on stage a few times in front of the huge sangat at Kirpal Ashram.
I used to experience the Radiant form of Darshan. And I was 100% convinced that it was true.
I now say it was mind generated.
Why? because all phenomena is mind generated
I wasn’t even contemplating the form – when I closed my eyes – that is all that was there.
In meditation, I would leave the body and meet the astral form which is the radiant form.
But now I say – it is not real.
no more real than dreams.
We dream every night – but we know that dreams are mind-generated.
The mind creates the dream.
The mind also creates all spiritual experience.
In fact all experience and anything you see, feel, hear is from the mind.

Hi 777
well, that’s about the first coherent message you have ever posted.
I can at least understand what you are saying
except of course the
love <3 at the end - no idea what that means.
I will put the reply in bold
OSHO
So Gurinder has watered it all down.
so the new teachings are that he has no special powers
Correct His Master Charan does it ALL

No – it means no master has any special powers.
Charan is the first person to admit he is an ordinary person.
He never even claimed any spiritual status.
and just to make sure there are no mis-understandings
and people don’t mistake it for humility
he had the original diary entries printed – as they were
in his original handwriting to confirm to the world
that he was in a dilemma over the gaddi
and that he has no special powers
if anyone still wants to believe masters have special powers
after such clear evidence – it can be called nothing but delusion
Certainly Charan Singh has made it clear and is not responsible if
people still want to believe in special powers

he is not coming at your death
Correct
His Master does that and uses the form needed

again – thanks for a reply I can understand and respond to.
Gurinder has made it clear – I heard him personally
not hearsay.
He said “How can the master come? where there is only ONE?”
He quoted Paltu “Paltu – there is only ONE – there is no other”
if master comes – then there are two
YOU and MASTER – that is duality
The purpose is to realize ONE – then the question of a master coming
does not arise. That is a duality perspective. It is the disciples desire to
be saved.
The Buddha famously said “There is no saviour. Not even me”

this is not the only path
Correct
Charan confirmed this when he said :
“but I don’t give you the telephone number”
There are Masters who come only for One disciple He said
Of course the Method is the only Method
realize the sweet Sound

Like I said earlier – no master can come
if a disciple experiences a master coming
that is simply his mind creating the illusion
lots of illusions get created when a person is dying
The Method is the only Method?
not sure what you mean there
they cryptic part of you is coming out again
meaningless statement
like “the fruit is the only fruit” – what does that mean?
“Realize the sweet sound” – again – it’s just a statement.
like saying
“Pray to Sweet Jesus” “Submit to the Great Allah” – just statements

he is not perfect
Correct
His Master is
but Gurinder is complete obedient

You are just trying to make it fit.
He said “the word PURA has been wrongly translated
it means COMPLETE – not PERFECT.
where do you get the word OBEDIENT from?
and it doesn’t even fit
We can all clearly see that Gurinder is nothing like Charan.
So what exactly is he obeying?
Did Charan Singh tell him to buy property?
use his position to make millions for his sons?
and the big one
isolate Babani? after so many years of service to RSSB
Charan was close to Babani
So if Gurinder is OBEYING, why was Babani still not close?
Has Charan suddenly lost his respect for Babani?
Charan was very close to Babani
When he stopped all audio tapes – only two were kept
his own and Babani’s
what does that tell you?
so it is clearly not Charan Singh working through Gurinder
it is Gurinder – he has his own style.

there are no regions
Correct
but you can make them
There are levels of consciousness, taking form

Make them? this is getting silly.
There are no tooth fairies – but you can make them
There is no God – but you can make the God
Levels of consciousness taking form?
Hmmm… and fairies taking form too?

meditation will not get you there
Correct
Love for the Sound will
Meditation will give Love
there is no ‘there’ to get to
Correct
We are already there but suffer°° ignorance, amnesia & more

there is not “there or “here” – no distance – no distinction between here and there
sure – we can be ignorant – but then why propagate the ignorance
by saying you need to meditate to get there?

You are in the business of to telling people to be less happy

where the fuck did that come from?
If delusion keeps you happy carry on
but saying there are no tooth fairies does not mean I want you to be unhappy. I am saying tooth fairies not needed in order to be happy.

Please don’t take offence to anything – I am just debating
nothing personal.
Also – I have nothing against RSSB – I am just pointing things out
that don’t make sense.
I used to be an ardent follower – but I am not against it now
I still go to satsangs sometimes when Gurinder comes.
mainly for entertainment value
he is entertaining.

So , you are not even an exer
So ; you can’t have a clu
I’m sorry
Perhaps start with the youtube link I gave
No single line I wrote is understandable for NON-initiated
777

s*
We have So much respect for U !!
Right, . . . no fear
RS
777
–

People obsessed with fear / elation of death are more likely to fall in the trap of gurudom.
If anyone examines closely at the time of sleep / in dream state this universe ceases to exist and we enter another aspect of consciousness. We are already experiencing death daily when our consciousness is trapped by dreams / deep sleep . Eternal life is state of samadhi when soul cannot be trapped by astral world / thoughts ; causal world / desires ; sleep / unconsciousness.
These gurudom paths are generating intense emotions in mind which are rattling the peaceful state required to enter samadhi .

Dear Osho,
I think this has been discussed so many times on this forum, but since Brian has also posted this afresh and so you are also making the same points again, I would like to add some context discussed earlier as well again here, just for the debating purpose:
Per your concepts, everything discussed around the regions aka the state of consciousness is just the delusions.
Also you go to the extent of claiming others’ experience, without knowing a bit about it, as delusions, and I assume mainly because you have not yet tasted that yet.
So the concepts that you are holding, can you explain the details to the following based on your theory ?
Let’s just reset and come back to the square one:
If you behead any animal or a human being and then put the head back, connect it nerve by nerve and tissue by tissue, which is fairly possible in the current medical advancements we are living in. Infuse any lost blood, give the enough electrical signal to get the brain, heart and other organs to boot up.
STILL – the body will never get up and running as it was just before you beheaded them.
And I can assume that you believe that it won’t get up and running because it will be Dead.
And the force which was making it alive earlier is now missing in the body and is not coming back in the body.
If there was some force, vitality, soul – name the word which suits your intellect, which is clear that there was something because your absolutely proven medical procedures are not making it alive again and that it is no longer here again, and if that soul is not here then it must now be somewhere.
So the above signifies two things:
1) there was something in the body when the body was alive
2) that something has gone somewhere because it’s not in the body as the body is no longer alive, it’s dead.
What are your thoughts on this ?
I am sure you must have witnessed the demise of someone from your family or you have not ? What do you call the episode of Death of someone, do you call that as delusion too ? or you have some other concepts to explain what exactly the Death is ?

I was at the Beas Dera about a week ago for my first time since being initiated by Charan Singh Feb 4, 1990 just before he left his body. I have been totally honest posting here, up to date, ( unlike many ) , so in a spirit of sharing, I feel it is my obligation to share my true feelings as I experienced my first visit to the Dera. This Generic summary is what I posted on my Facebook site, as only a very few of my friends are Sant Mat Initiates and have no interest in hearing what I think.
I wondered what it would be like to go there, after meditating for 30 years and hearing and reading about all th stories. My young Friend in Delhi motivated me to go there, as soon as he saw on my Facebook site I was going to Bhutan and Nepal. With out his help, I would never have been able to go there. I even failed for weeks trying to buy our Train Tickets from Delhi to Beas , and he guided me step by step until I was able to buy our tickets. He also helped me in many other ways. I am greatful. He is a dedicated Gurinder Singh Initiate, as are many who read this site.
Before I share my Generic Facebook summary, every one shoud know that Gurinder explicitly stated in one of the Q & A sessions he gave Westeners in the Hostel 6 Audatorium that he nor any other human being , is a “Perfect” Master. He said he has discarded that old Sant Mat term, and prefers using “ True” Masters. He did not say he was one of those. He said ALL material with in all species, including humans, are imperfect.
He said that he has banged his head against the wall so many times trying to deal with imperfect beings, that he has had to pad the wall behind his chair so as not to hurt himself! ( the entire wall is padded like a padded cell.)
He also said some other remarks that I don’t think were appropriate to discuss in such a mixed group of male/female audience of about 2500 I would estimated. In fact, of every thing I have ever heard said about him, these remarks proved to me by uncertian terms his humaness, and would have been remarks that Master Chran Singh would have never used even in his most most intimate Disciples discussions, even jokingly.
Sorry my experience was not more positive and uplifting, but I have nver held back ex pressing my true feelings. That’s why I am banned from posting on most Radhasoami sites including Lane’s old site who, by the way, has now become a “ Completely changed man” since visting the Dera this year, as told to me by the Western Rep. I answered that “ That is great,
but Lane needs to come back on the forums he bashed the Gurus on, the last 20 years, and tell all that he drove Way from Sant Mat why he has changed, and mend the wounds.
Regardless of my experience, I STILL belive that Sant Mat is the most Spiritual Path of all I have ever encountered.
Before I share my generic Facebook SummRy, I should share that when ever I went outside the Hostel 6 Compound, I was ALWAYS greeted by “ Radhasoami” with folded hands by every Satsangi I met. Inside the Western Hostel 6 Compund, I hardly was ever greeted, but thought I must I not have even existed, much less greeted.!
On my Facebook site, I share many of the phots I was able to take before entering the Dera, as well as some other India sites durng my 11 day tour in in including Soami Bagh.
Here is my Facebook Summery.
“Our 5.5 hour Train ride to Beas ended up taking 7 hours! We were late getting to the Radha Soami Satsang Dera. Quite an experience. No photos allowed and they confiscated our phones coming in. The only way to contact any one out side is to buy a secret code from 500 Rs that lets you call out on their private phone , but no calls can come in. I had a real hard time trying to call out to my Taxi we hired to come pick us up from Amritsar. There are so many rules at the Dera, that my best way to describe my experience there is, to me, it felt like I might have been a White Collar Convict sentenced to serve time in a U.S. Federal Penitentiary. But I went, I saw, I experienced, and now I know. I felt absolutely no Dejavu there. The Train up was fun. Notice the Toilet dumps directly on to the rail road tracks! Good Organic fertilizer.”

I had posted the following on my Facebook site, and have devided I may as well share it here as well, conne ting a few dots to my prior post about my Dera visit.
“Some Dera photos out side. The big Gate is the entering Amritsar. We were able to walk inside and see Dera to see the Great Master’s old Sant Sang Building in all of its Pristine Glory. But no one is allowed any where near it. It is all gated off with Security watching that no photos are taken from possible smuggled cameras! Guess I’ll just have to look at my old books and remember I saw it. Other then there, I didn’t have time to see any thing else, as time was limited and reservations for the Bus had to be made days in advance to go any where. I did sit in Satsang with about 100,000 others listening to 1.5 hours of Shabds followed by 30 minutes of Q & As from Gurinder Singh, mostly answering questions to young people begging for Grace and Initiation. He initiated the day so was leaving. I was invited to attend, but it went from 7 AM until Noon and we left at 8:30 A.M. so I had to decline. Next day, another Satsang with 90 minutes of Shabd’s sung by various singers, then, Gurinder Singh showed up to give exactly 3 minutes of Darshan, then left while some one else gave Satsang that we had to listen to translations on ear buds we had to buy to connect to their Translators on loan. Seeing Gurinder Singh on a huge TV Monitor revealed his facial features and dad, sad eyes. He looked like he was some where else thank with his 100,000 adoring Devotees all wanting some miracle from him. Gurinder Singh gave the Westeners an hour open Q & A in English, but some one else took 20 minutes to talk, then some clown hogged another 20 minutes complaining about the food and changes since Charan Singh, while Gurinder Singh was seeming to enjoy it with others laughing. I was qued to ask my question, but never got the chance. Another female Engineer took another 15 minutes to hype her Engineering knowledge, and a few other questions ate the rest of the hour of which Gurinder promptly left. The Room held about 2500 I estimated. Gurinder ( to me ) acted like he was speaking to a room full of Elementary School Kids rather than seasoned Mystics. But, that was my personal interpretation. No one asked what I would recognize as a Spiritual question. Gurinder acted like a School Teacher instead of a Spiritual Master as far as I could see. No one seemed interested in asking Spiritual questions. One Indian complained that Doctors and Westerners were getting preferential treatment. Gurinder said they get what they need, and in turn, he gets what he needs from them. No doubt, there is money there, as it’s the cleanest little town or Institution I saw in all of India. The accommodation rooms were about like any clean Motel Room , and is the Main Cafeteria was clean, with the very basic vegetarian food ( Very Bland ) to survive on. One Guy complained that was not like the good old days with Charan Singh. Gurinder told him if he had wanted fancier food to go buy some at the Food Stalls. I would have done so but had no means of getting to them from our Hostel 6 Zone where Westerners were incarcerated. I am sitting here in my Hotel eating Cookies and any thing that I can spot, to catch up. We then had a Pizza for like much in our Hotel.”

777
“So , you are not even an exer
So ; you can’t have a clu”
This is what I mean by meaningless nonsense.
Like what the heck does that mean?
If I am not an “EXER” (which is a meaningless statements unless you
define exactly what you mean by “EXER” which I can pretty much
guarantee will not be the same as my definition.)
then I cannot have a clue?
absolute bullshit. Never heard such nonsense.
“No single line I wrote is understandable for NON-initiated”
again – complete nonsense.
initiation is no qualification for being able to understand nonsense.
and I can get a roomfull of initiates who will all say they have no idea what you are talking about.

Hi One Initiated,
“If there was some force, vitality, soul – name the word which suits your intellect, which is clear that there was something because your absolutely proven medical procedures are not making it alive again and that it is no longer here again, and if that soul is not here then it must now be somewhere.
So the above signifies two things:
1) there was something in the body when the body was alive
2) that something has gone somewhere because it’s not in the body as the body is no longer alive, it’s dead.
What are your thoughts on this ?”

Just because you cannot make a thing that was alive, Alive again,
after it is dead, does not prove anything of the existence of something beyond the body.
If I smash up a computer and you fail to get it working again, it will not prove that the computer had a soul.
Both your (1) and (2) above do not follow.
If you believe in the idea of an individual soul, that itself goes against the teachings of many saints.
What does Paltu mean then when he says there is only ONE and no other?
Individual soul would mean we are all separate, so then there cannot be ONE as there are MANY.
When someone dies – it is the BODY that dies, not the person.
There are individual bodies.
Not souls.
The ego is the illusion of a separate ME (individual SOUL)
The notion of an individual soul is a way to keep the ego alive
The ego is the idea that I will remain after death.
After death – you will not remain.
Because there is no YOU even now. Just the illusion of a ME.
Reaching Sach Khand is not about getting to some place
It is the realization of the ONE – no self
Gurinder says this too – very clearly

Jim,
Thank you for your honest comments.
“Gurinder explicitly stated that he nor any other human being , is a “Perfect” Master. He said he has discarded that old Sant Mat term, and prefers using “ True” Masters. He did not say he was one of those. He said ALL material with in all species, including humans, are imperfect.”

So finally you heard it straight from the source.
He has been saying this for over a decade.
As well as debunking the other concepts that I have stated here many times.

“He also said some other remarks that I don’t think were appropriate to discuss in such a mixed group of male/female audience of about 2500”

You might not think they were appropriate, but he did.
And a disciple is meant to never question a master.
It is sacrilege to question or doubt the master.
He has made comments like what you heard many times.
To him they are no big deal.
I agree with him.
He can make any comments he likes.
You will only be offended if you put him on a pedestal
He has said so many times to chop the legs of the pedestal.
And treat him like an ordinary human being
Then they will be appropriate

“Regardless of my experience, I STILL belive that Sant Mat is the most Spiritual Path of all I have ever encountered.”

Then it means that his words fell on deaf ears.
You are still as deluded as when you went.
The purpose of what he did was to kill off the blind belief
But with you it still remain.
I suggest another visit. Next week would be good.
Or sooner.

these remarks proved to me by uncertain terms his humanness, and would have been remarks that Master Charan Singh would have never used

How do you know Charan would never have used them.
You might be surprised.
Gurinder is in my opinion the most outspoken and radical of the current sant mat masters. He doesn’t care if you are offended.
I must say that is one trait I admire in him.
It takes courage to go against all those books and the old teachings.
You have only seen the tip of the iceberg yet.
You need to hang out more with him and soon you will see just how much
the teachings have changed.

“Sorry my experience was not more positive and uplifting”

Jim, are you on drugs?
It was very positive and uplifting – just not what you expected.
Because your expectation were wrong.
This is what happens when expectations meet reality
All those who claim the teachings have not changed would do well to copy your example and go see him in person then decide.

“Lane needs to come back on the forums he bashed the Gurus on, the last 20 years, and tell all that he drove Way from Sant Mat why he has changed, and mend the wounds.”

Are you kidding me?
Why should he?
Are you going to apologize for what you have just written above if some believers leave the path after reading your words?
What others do is their business.
Neither I, nor David Lane, nor Jim Sutherland is responsible for others.
I am just being true to ME and you are being true to YOU.
That’s it. I am not responsible for others.
Let’s say you become what you call an “EXER” in say a few months once you have had time to digest the implication of what you witnessed, are you then going to apologise to all the believers who followed the path because of your comments?
No – everyone is on their own path and they alone are responsible.
“The only way to contact any one out side is to buy a secret code from 500 Rs that lets you call out on their private phone , but no calls can come in. “

Seems ridiculous to me that there is so much control. What for? What is RSSB afraid of? Or is it just a way of making RS500?

“Gurinder acted like he was speaking to a room full of Elementary School Kids rather than seasoned Mystics.”

Well that is because there are no seasoned mystics there, including you. Just elementary school kids who are all confused

“No one seemed interested in asking Spiritual questions. “

You just saw that now? Have you never been to any of his satsangs before? The disciples just ask silly things – so he has decided to just have fun

Jim, do you now consider that the teachings have changed
or are you still of the opinion that nothing has changed

Jim,

do you consider that Gurinder is a perfect master (whatever that means)

what specifically has changed for you since the visit?

Osho
You are just not a bird
and cannot fly
Hope you see it now
777
PS
As for changements, . . . compare the lyrics of initiation
with those of 50 years ago
You would be so amazed
PS2
Find here how I heard about this Path and you will be flabbergasted

777
You are just the village idiot
but cannot see it
hope it all makes sense now.
OR
PS
watch the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVBX_zSeHWQ
you will get it – or maybe not unless you are initiated by an
imperfect non-master
if you are initiiated
this video will make sense to you
because you know the secret code
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3svKMw5BceQ
and if you don’t know the code
watch this – it will make sense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSdTrm8A66M
and the initiates will understand this
because it it coded for them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk58U2zd0mY
okay – if you still don’t get it
listen very closely to the hidden coded messages in this final video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-WCb4Y6H8M
good luck

777
perhaps you can make sense of this special video
for initiates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHd7PGHliTc
PS the master loves you
> the sweet sound of super shabd
PS2 is the name of a game
understand? if not
get initiated

ha ha Osho,
Could never expect such comment from you. You are behaving silly, just to cover up your falling concepts ?
Your comments made me laugh so much, but I didn’t understand really.
Are you acting funny or you are pretending to be dumb ?
Probably this is exactly what Brian described in his latest post, that in fact the non-believers eventually happen to hold beliefs which are rather stupid in nature. And that’s what you described above by comparing your own body (with crown chakra) with the material only computers.
To which further level of stupidity can anyone proceed ?
Just to clear some clouds from your mind:
You are comparing human bodies with computers ? really ?
Break a CPU, or Hard Disk or the RAM, install a new one and bingo!! you are good to boot it up again.
humans created computers and not the vise versa.
humans take birth (they are not manufactured) via humans,
humans grows with time from childhood to youth and starts to decline from youth to become old and finally die (without your permissions, Osho)
Really, comparing this comment of yours with some other ones, is not even making sense that these are coming from the same person.
OR I think you had really no answer to that based on your concepts and that you just wrote whatever absurd stuff came to your mind which you ever read anywhere.

Also, one more point to add a little bit of fun, if you would enjoy:
Turn on your computer, (also turn on it’s camera, if you consider that as it’s eyes 😉 and try to hit it with a sledgehammer.
AND
hand a sledgehammer to your friend and ask him to hit your head with it.
And let us all know whether the computer tried to defend itself from hitting ?
You don’t need to tell how you would behave, I am only interested in knowing how your computer would behave 😉
And yeah, please use only sledgehammer – don’t try this trick with jackhammer ha ha.

Well, I know what you mean. Or, you can take it back to where it was when it can be.
I mean, if you have 4 pencils and I have 7 apples, how many pancakes will fit on the roof?
Stumped? You’re gonna kick yourself for not seeing this right away. The only possible answer…
Purple, because Spolinians don’t wear hats.
Ole’

Look up in the sky and see all the ones that were kinda like you guys but they had the blue, kinda blue tint. The lights are way too bright. Way too bright. Just watch out for the flying carrot sticks. They’re everywhere damn it. Do you have an uncle Eric?

I look forward to read all the lots of posts..
No time by now,but it seems so good to hear(the written words) and communicate about some points.
Because one thing is clear:´doubd is not done in santmat while I think just that is very alright because one comes deeper by examination and communication withoneselves and others..as far as ot helps or goes.
s*

Hi One Initiated,
“ha ha Osho,
Could never expect such comment from you. You are behaving silly, just to cover up your falling concepts ?
Your comments made me laugh so much, but I didn’t understand really.
Are you acting funny or you are pretending to be dumb ?”

you don’t know what I just did?
Okay let me explain – but I am surprised that you didn’t get it.
What I did was a “777”
I acted like 777 – just to show haw silly it all is.
Those videos are of “nonsense talk”
and the people he plays the prank on first pretend to understand
and finally admit they have no idea what he is talking about.
Just like with 777
The truth is he is writing nonsense
but for some strange reason his club of admirers claim to understand
I can tell you – if he said those things on the microphone to Gurinder
Gurinder would ask him to explain what he means.
So then according to the faithful on here – Gurinder is not initiated
because 777 claims that only the initiated can understand him
which is incorrect because I am initiated and I ain’t got no fucking
clue what the heck he is talking about

Hi one initiated,
you obviously did not read the comment.
let me repeat
Just because you cannot make a thing that was alive, Alive again,
after it is dead, does not prove anything of the existence of something beyond the body.
If I smash up a computer and you fail to get it working again, it will not prove that the computer had a soul.
Let’s just say that I build a complex computer and it either breaks down
or I break it. and you are unable to get it working again.
according to your logic – and this was the point I was making
according to your logic the REASON that it does not work again
is because there is some mysterious part of it that is missing
which must be the soul.
clearly this logic is flawed. so is the logic you are using equally flawed.
someone might be in a coma for 10 days – no signs of life
just kept alive by the life support machines
if you take the life support off – he would instantly die.
then after ten days he recovers.
so where was the soul during those ten days?
did it go into hiding? and then come back?
your logic does not prove the existence of a soul
that is why I used the example of a computer
because you know the computer has no soul
but by your logic it would have to have one
if you failed to bring it back to life

One initiated wrote
“And let us all know whether the computer tried to defend itself from hitting ?
You don’t need to tell how you would behave, I am only interested in knowing how your computer would behave 😉
And yeah, please use only sledgehammer – don’t try this trick with jackhammer ”

I just tried it – but I hit it with a jackass instead of a sledgehammer
and you know what?
the phone DID defend itself
because just before the moment of impact – it rang
and I answered it
and the voice said
“What the heck do you think you are doing?
Do you think there will be no karma for this?
You think I don’t have a soul?”
then the jackass freaked out

and I started writing this comment.
Hey Tuscon – how are you, pal?
don’t see your comments much on here recently
I just drop by sometimes when I could do with some light entertainment
Tuscon, jen and *s – great nonsensical prose
maybe the four of us can write a book of nonsense and maybe
RSSB will publish it – and anyone who can make sense of it
gets a free ticket to Sach Khand
but I will have to check with Gurinder if he will give a free ticket
as there might have to be a slight charge of $1 Million for it
stay cool guys and have fun

To Osho, I spent 30 minutes keying out detailed answers to your baited questions, but got timed out and lost the entire post.
I hate, despise this Format! I hate having to hurry so fast that I can rarely have time to spell check, etc. so I am not going to do it all over again, and I am still very weary and brain dead from my 23 day trip.
But let me explain, that at 75, I was rased in a little Ametican town of 700 people where every one knew each other intimately with all their “ private” secrets.
Marriage was sacred, and shacking up with out marriage was not only taboo, but illegal.
People never discussed their private bedroom sexual pleasures with others, even I among other married friends. I have been married to my Bride for 56 years and have never shared our bedroom actions with even my Brother, let alone strangers or friends, and don’t make jokes about our love for each other. Perhaps that is why we are still committed to our sacred marriage Vows. We are from the “Old School.”
Pwehaps I will try to so ths in smaller posts as to nt get tmed out agan, before I get to my point.

Well, looks like the Moderator is up at 2 AM moderating, so I will continue!
To Osho, continuing,……
When I was a Pastor, with a trusted Congregation that loved me, and had put their trust in me to be their Shepard, I used to have a “ Sharing Testimony Time”, before my Sermons, as most Evangelical Churches still do, that allows Desciples to share their Testimonies of what The Lord has done for them to help them in their lives recently and why they love Him.
Its kind of like a Question & Answer session as Gurinder does.
Imagine some man coming to the Mic at one of my Testimony sessions and startiing to complain about the food we brought to our Pot Luck Meals after Chruch Services. Then, as the Pastor of the Flock, I start countering his complaints, putting him on the spot, because I am in charge, because he is in my Church, and I am the appointed Pastor. ( I was, )
Now, as the complsiner is getting frustrated because I am Check Mating him publicly, before my large mixeded Congregation, of married, single, males, females, and children, the man starts saying,. .” But, Pastor, bla bla bla, and I again counters. He again says, “ but Pastor, bla bla bla,….”
I then JOKE!
My answer out of the sewer is,……” you sure like butts, huh” Do you still like your wifes butt?
The man seems embarressed. He answers,…”Master, I am 69, and no longer think of butts.”
Then, I Jokingly counter by saying, …( as Gurider did to him before 2500 of us in a mixed audience from all over the world from different countries, cultures and Nationalities ) , “ Well, do you know what 69 means?” ( he now is on re ord haven said this to all that were there with me. )
The man is obviously now really embarressed, and answers,….” Master, Masters shouldn’t talk about things like that….”
The laughter echoes thru out the Auditorium.
I suddenly wonder if I took the wrong door and entered a Porn Theator instead of a Scared Spiritual Discourse Lecture.
I think even Dr. David Lane would have felt embarressed and uncomfortable had he been sitting thete beside me with his lovely wife and two sons!
I am glad my wife was not with me.

To Osho,….continuing,…..
I am of the Old School, of Sant Mat One, and will remain there,….in the Land of Duality.
I like it here, and don’t care what you, Gurinder, or any other One ness Advaitist Preacher thinks about Sant Mat One, the Theology originally taught by the True Masters of Sant Mat and since the Dawn of Creation that has, and will continue to draw Marked souls like me, to Living Masters of our time, to be given the Get Out of Jail Free Card, by a Living Master of our Time, as Master Charan Singh gave me.
Gurinder didn’t have my Card, as it had already been depositied in the Depository of souls before he was appointed to lead the Sanghat.
Hope I have andwered your baited Questions, if not, read carefully between the lines, and you will find the answers.
As for me, as far as the Dera is concerned, I went, I saw, I experienced,…and I never intend to return.
I am convinced the Old School of the past has faded away in to a new type of religeon.

To Osho,…and others,…..I believe I have adequately answered why I am, and intend to remain and honor Sant Mat One Theology. It is the Theology I was taught in Seminary, and will contine to teach honoring my Earned Semnary Th.D., M.Min. B.Min. Degrees, as a Christian Clergy mInister.
The Western U.S. Rep. who shared Charan Singhs Initiation with me in California Feb. 4 , 1990 was also an Ex Christian Pastor, a Seminary trained Th.D. As I am, and I can assure you, he would have been horrifed had he been sitting beside me in Gurinder’s Q & A session with his lovely wide and heard the Porn Parlor jokes. Roland De Vries was a Theologian from the same Old School as I am from.
I am not ashamed of that Old School. I honor it, and will continue to respect its Sacredness.
I know I am not in a minority.
😇😍💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤💤😇😇

Hi Jim,
“To Osho, I spent 30 minutes keying out detailed answers to your baited questions, but got timed out and lost the entire post.
I hate, despise this Format! I hate having to hurry so fast that I can rarely have time to spell check, etc. so I am not going to do it all over again, and I am still very weary and brain dead from my 23 day trip.”

just a little tip to change your life.
You don’t need to do that.
You can write offline – into word or notepad etc
no time limits or timeouts
then once you have finished
just paste it into here
problem solved.

Jim
you can follow any theology
but let’s get ir clear that according to the very path you claim to follow
you stand condemned by that very path
because sant mat says
“If your guru asks you to dye your prayer mat in alcohol, then do it
without hesitation”
The teachings are clear – the master is the highest authority
and if you don’t accept him as master and love him
then you are not on the path
regardless of how much you meditate.
and I am not baiting you
just stating it as it is
which is what you claim to always do
be true to yourself

Jim
“I am of the Old School, of Sant Mat One, and will remain there,….in the Land of Duality.”

You are on a non-existent path
Now do you at least admit the teachings have changed?
despite all those posts claiming that I was mistaken and had my own hidden agenda.
I met David Lane many years ago. He was close to Charan but only considered him a decent and honest man – not a master with great powers.
He said to me at that time that his faith cannot be shattered
because he does not put him on a pedestal in the first place.
Gurinder can make any remarks he chooses
because he is with the faithful
and although I was not there – my guess is he was just having fun
he does this all the time in Haynes park.
but he is just having a laugh.
one example:
some lady says “You are beautiful. I love you”
he replies “Where were you when I was younger?”
I have heard him make sexual remarks – but he is just jesting
I don’t see anything wrong in that. He’s just having fun.
which is perfectly okay.
What did he say that was so offensive to you?”
also – was anyone else offended, or just you?
did you see anyone stand up and leave?
My guess is NO.
You are only shocked because you have been living in the past
and suddenly you have seen him after so long and shocked that he
is so different from Charan

I like it here, and don’t care what you, Gurinder, or any other One ness Advaitist Preacher thinks about Sant Mat One”

you are perfectly in your rights to follow any path you choose
but don’t kid yourself that you are following RSSB
when the successor changes something – thats the new rule
and Gurinder is not some Oneness Advaitist
he is on his own unique middle of the road path
Advaita teachings don’t have any element of duality
He does – he still keeps many duality concepts
which is why many are confused

Hi Jim
I just read your account of the inappropriate comments.
Is that it?
you are offended over your gurus successor jesting?
you wrote:
” Gurinder says,” you sure like butts, huh” Do you still like your wifes butt?
man seems embarressed. He answers,…”Master, I am 69, and no longer think of butts.”
Gurinder: “Well, do you know what 69 means?”
The man is obviously now really embarressed, and answers,….” Master, Masters shouldn’t talk about things like that….”
The laughter echoes thru out the Auditorium.
I suddenly wonder if I took the wrong door and entered a Porn Theator instead of a Scared Spiritual Discourse Lecture.”

Jim,
is that it?
you are offended over that?
I don’t know which stone you have been hiding under.
He has made many such remarks and more extreme in much bigger gatherings – like Haynes at national satsang.
I have never seen anyone offended – at least not openly.
They are all used to it by now.
It is his style. It is his humour. It is nothing to be offended over.
I am afraid – you have wasted your whole life
because the path you are holding onto does not exist.
You could go follow Rajinder as he is still in the duality path
but the current RSSB is not your path.
However, when the current master changes the path – what he is really saying is that this is the real path – not the past one.
and he has the blessings of Charan
otherwise you are making a mockery of successorship
if Gurinder is not a real master (which is what you are saying)
then why the heck did Charan appoint him?
and not only Charan
What charan claimed at the time was that he was following the instructions of his guru, Sawan Singh.
If you consider Gurinder is not a true guru – then you are deluded if you think you can still follow charan – because you are questioning his judgement.
I am not baiting you – just stating the truth
Personally I don’t find Gurinder offensive
he is just having fun

Osho writes,…”What did he say that was so offensive to you?”
also – was anyone else offended, or just you?
did you see anyone stand up and leave?
My guess is NO
No one would dare to walk out and leave. He had a Captve Audience. No one can leave the Dera with out their Discharge Papers. Heck it was easier for me to leave the USAF than the Dera. At least they let me use my phone. I never had to buy a Secret Code to call a Taxi to come pick me up.

The Total Greatness of the RSSB Sound System
is that
to my humble opinion
Gurinder doesn’t know he is the perfect One
Neither he understands where these beautiful buildings are for
He just follows the MAUJ ( an unbelievable fine tuned serendipities structure )
The word Obedient is in Webster
was first used in the 13th century
Don’t worry, . . . be Happy ( a song )
777
ps
Hé no single comment here
on that video about
science vs GOD ?
Tiny bit of hypocrisy , perhaps here & there

Has RSSB turned into a concentration camp now?
The audience is captive out of choice.
When he is in haynes, anyone can leave
I meant simply to walk out of the satsang meeting – not run away from the Dera like escaping from a concentration camp.
Not sure why all the security is needed.
That was my point when Brain made the post about sevadars egos gone wild at haynes. All I was asking was to go to my car. They were protecting an area that no longer needed protection because GuruJi had already left. But they were just following orders and are not given permission to think for themselves.

“”” absolute bullshit. Never heard such nonsense. —– “No single line I wrote is understandable for NON-initiated”
again – complete nonsense.
initiation is no qualification for being able to understand nonsense. “”””
Hi
Now you give proof you were not initiated
Because RSSB Initiation qualifies to BE the sweet Shabd, . . to be God
and you are not
777

“”” I think even Dr. David Lane would have felt embarressed and uncomfortable had he been sitting thete beside me with his lovely wife and two sons! “””
I’m absolutely NOT
It’s big time the habit of neglect, hide pushing away , sex by big part of most populations while openly talk of slaughter in thousand ways
becomes cracked at least by One Leader
Deus Laudamus Jim
So fine you did this opening
Clear ? Osho
777
–

Osho, you have been playing Bad Cop, as an Exer, now you are trying to play Good Cop, by accusing me of being the Exer.
But he difference is, I never entered the Fundamentalist GIHF path, nor certsinly not the changed Sant Mat 2, 3 or 4 you have been hyping hete, so I am not citing any thing I have never entered to begin with.
Plus, I retain the respect and Credibility I have always had from my friends.
I rest my case. No further comments about Gurinder from me.
Lane will eventually return here to explain why he is now a changed man by what he heard Gurinder say when he was there.
Many say that Gurinder sounds completely different when he sits on the Gaddi and gives his one hour Sat Sangs sounding like a GIHF.
I sat in the front row , but to the side of Gurinder, when he was on the Gaddi, and noticed what looked to me like a Teleprompter screen in front of him, about 10 feet out. Maybe it was a camera so he could see his own facial gestures, but I think it also could be a Teleprompter, which expains how he can go from talking about 69s and giving an hour Sat Sang with out a pause.
Just like Pres.. Trump does when he uses a Teleprompter to address Congress and the U.N. , then Tweets what he is really thinking about to his Devotees.

I was just told by a Sevadore friend that what I thought could be a Telepromter is actually Time Clock Monitor. It clicks off the time, so I stand corrected.

777 wrote
“Now you give proof you were not initiated
Because RSSB Initiation qualifies to BE the sweet Shabd, . . to be God
and you are not”
are you on drugs?
I have been initiated many times – many gurus
but it’s nonsense.

Jim: Osho, you have been playing Bad Cop, as an Exer, now you are trying to play Good Cop, by accusing me of being the Exer.
Me: I am not accusing you of anything. And there is no good cop / bad cop game being played.
Jim: But the difference is, I never entered the Fundamentalist GIHF path, nor certsinly not the changed Sant Mat 2, 3 or 4 you have been hyping here, so I am not citing anything I have never entered to begin with.
Plus, I retain the respect and Credibility I have always had from my friends.
I rest my case. No further comments about Gurinder from me.
Me: You don’t consider Gurinder GIHF? Is that correct?
You don’t consider Charan Singh GIHF – is that correct?
I know you have never accepted sant mat 2.0 3.3 or 4.0
But do you at least acknowledge thqt Gurinder had indeed changed sant mat 1.0 into the 2.0 3.0 and 4.0 versions?
Jim: Many say that Gurinder sounds completely different when he sits on the Gaddi and gives his one hour Satsangs sounding like a GIHF.
Me: I know many speakers in RSSB that seem really impressive on stage. So what? It means nothing

777: The Total Greatness of the RSSB Sound System
is that to my humble opinion
Gurinder doesn’t know he is the perfect One
Gurinder, the appointed guru of RSSB “doesn’t know”
what apparently 777 DOES know
namely that Gurinder IS the perfect one?
Well in that case maybe 777 should be on the Gaddi
not Gurinder
as 777 obviously knows more than Gurinder

Baba Faqir Chand said ” Dera disciples , you may not do repetition of any name , you may not believe in gurudom but don’t do bad deeds , your deeds will not spare you ”
Many people live in false sense of security that by going to any guru , they will be spared from the results of bad deeds. Jesus said ” You shall not kill ” but people try to twist it.
Crops are harvested , fruits are plucked and animals are killed but who listens.

Hello Brian
I remember Gurinder Singh telling us at Haynes in 2002 that the UK will be a third world country give it take 12 or 13 years. Got that one right spot on looool.
It was a response to a question by a guy who asked why is there so much fraud in India – I think gurinder replied do you not think there is fraud in the UK.
Serious question Gurinder are you God??????? Are you the Alpha and Omega? We need answers – some of us are genuine and want closure. If you are reading this – I may self am afraid to ask a question – in case you say something hurtful. I thought God was love !!!!!!!!!

“””” I have been initiated many times – many gurus
but it’s nonsense. “”””
Yes by fakers like ‘Osho Raneesh’ from Puna, Taqars offspring – so many etc …
So , you have not the slightest notion about what happens
when a Jeeva is embraced by a Real Saint and the Original Sound and receives 5 powers
So, what are you doing here ?
Y’r no exer because you were never IN
Besides, you are the first I see in many years starting calling names
Further I sense an aggressivity common to alcoholics
Pls visit the nearest AA
To other readers: he will certainly come back, even under other pseudos if he doesn’t already
but he is very AA recognizable – – I propose a “Un Gordon Sanitaire”
777
–
–

Jim
You don t need an external editor
You can type as long as you want and when finished you
select your text
For safety reasons you can then place with paste in any editor / notes on IMac
Next you refresh the page
and do PAST in the text frame
Next SEND is accepted
That’s it – I do that almost all the time
always nice to save anyway
ps
you said ‘No’ but at least you must say what question was asked before the butt remark
or what was the context
Give Gurinder a honest chance !
Also the man who reacted , . . . did you approach him ?
Further : Indian Culture where you have these temples with all Kama Sutra positions
to see for children might allow this
Perhaps Davis Lane , after so much study , he knows
Or One Initiated or any other from Delhi, India , even the complete orient 🙂
Thank You very much in advance
777

Jim, my sympathies because of your experiences at the Dera, and at the same time this is like an awakening for you. I can understand you still have an attachment to Charan, I did for a long, long time and now I am over it all completely.
I don’t mix with satsangis because of their religious attitudes so haven’t heard much about Gurinder’s joking. I think these sexual remarks made by a supposed GIHF are not acceptable. The final nail in the coffin for me. He’s just a human like all of us, probably has no spiritual power at all, well, no more than we have anyway. In fact I wonder now if Sant Mat is actually a demonic path. I know it sounds too extreme but when I die and if I see a radiant form that looks like the Master I am going to avoid it and escape if I can.
Scary to think I bought into such a fake path. Satsangis are acting like brain washed clones and Gurinder is feeding off the energy of his followers and they don’t even realise it.

“””” I have been initiated many times – many gurus
but it’s nonsense. “”””
777 replies:
Yes by fakers like ‘Osho Raneesh’ from Puna, Taqars offspring – so many etc
So , you have not the slightest notion about what happens
when a Jeeva is embraced by a Real Saint and the Original Sound and receives 5 powers
Boy – you do talk a lot of nonsense.
I was never initiated or never even met Osho Rajneesh
I WAS initiated by (1) Thakar (2) Swami Divyanand
(3) Charan SIngh (4) Darshan Singh
I was also close with (but not initiated by) Rasila Ram (Saidpur RSSB)
and
I also met Ajaib singh on a number of occasions
Dr Harbhajan & Taran Taran guru Baba Kehar SIngh
I was very close with and met both of these many times and had many in depth discussions with both of them.
So please don’t talk such nonsense if you don’t know what you are
talking about.
Plus there are people on this forum that know me personally
unlike you – I am not a made up person
777 – nobody knows who you are – 777 means nothing
with me – only my code name of Osho Robbins is made up
I am a real person anyone can see and hear and people know

777:
So, what are you doing here ?
Y’r no exer because you were never IN
I have just proven beyond all doubt that the above is a lie
Besides, you are the first I see in many years starting calling names
Further I sense an aggressivity common to alcoholics
Pls visit the nearest AA
Your sensing ability of off, and needs recalibration
I have no aggression against RSSB
I have no idea where you bring Alcohol and AA into the argument from.
I go to RSSB satsangs sometimes – I don’t consider myself an Exer
because I am neither for nor against
I just pointed out that in some earlier posts that there are
characteristics about Gurinder that I find admirable

Concerning the “Secret Code”I mentiond I had to buy to make a phone call outside the Dera.
I need to put more clarity in to this statement to make it credible, and why itmirritated me so much.
There was a So. African Gurinder Initiate there, trying to leaving the same day as I was, who was also irritated and helped me wade thru the confusion by directing me to a Sevador tending the Audio booth who helped him.
This man explained that I would need to buy a Secret Code Coupon dor 500Rs to call out by using Dera House phone placed in ever Block of the Hostel 6 Compond. He said that there would be X amount f mi utes on the Coupon and he would buy back any unused minutes I had left in the Coupon from me after making my call.
His Wife was one of the Sewadors working at the Hostel 6 Office he said to but thenCoupon from.
That made more sense to memonce he explained it clearly to me.
Prior, what irritated me, was theremwere 4peop,e working the Hostel Ad ission Offce, who had all different stories about how I could make my single call out.
First, I was told by an American Lady that Imwould need to buy a local I dia Chip for mmy phone, then I could use it to call out.
I rejected that suggestion, and refused to buy anChip to,make,one call when I was leaving the next morning.
Plus, I had an iPhonem7Plus that was loaded with 20prior days of my travel,photos I didn’t want to chance deleting or messing up by mess gmwith a Chip change.
I Complained that there MUST be some one withnan Indian Phonemthatmcould make a single call for me.I,gave them them the number.
The Lady tried agan to sell me a Cell Phone Chip.!! She said she would give me back my cell phone back, and I could change out my chip and make my call, then give her back my confiscated phone.
Again, I refused, and walked away.
I returned again after trying to find some one who had an Indian Phone, but found no one.
I then went back to Offce and askd if the Weatern Rep.could help me, as thought he might have his phone still.
They told me he was he was gone to take some one to the Hospital, and only Whayne in Security could allow such a call out side, and he was out for the Week!!
So then I told them that wants to carry my luggage with wife to the main Gate, and try find fa Taxi from there, as I had been told there were always Taxis there.
I was told I was not allowed t leave on my own. The Taxi would have to come get me, insdemth Yare, after Imhave thm his Name, Registration ID, and car number!
But I couldn’t call out.
After I finally bought my 500 R. Secret Vode t make my single hnmcall, I found outmaftermMgot,out sde, that Imcould have bought a ONE R Coupon that would have easily have handled my call.
Now if that doesn’t sound like I was being held in a Cencentration Camp, than just what was it?
My uninitated Wife was paranoid!
Yes, maybe I went in voluntarily, but once in, I was their Prisner,….until We escaped!,,,

777 in a lame attempt to defend the “butt” remark
(addressed to Jim)
“you said ‘No’ but at least you must say what question was asked before the butt remark or what was the context
Give Gurinder a honest chance !
Also the man who reacted , . . . did you approach him ?”
Me: Jim is not happy about a master referring to Butts
and 69 in any context.
so there is nothing to defend.
I personally take no exception to that
I don’t think that is any criteria for a master or a good person
He has his own standards just as you have yours
there is nothing inherently wrong in those remarks
it is just that he has violated a moral code within Jim
so Jim is offended
it actually is not about Gurinder – it’s about Jim
I don’t have that same moral code so I am not offended
plus I consider him a man – not a god man
and in my opinion he is just having fun
Charan claimed no special powers
Gurinder also claims no special powers from what I have heard
so why assign powers to them
and then get offended when they act in a human way?

Sorry for the typos, but I hurried to not get timed out.
Osho, perhaps the reason I was offended by the locker room sexual comments that should only be joked about by Homosexuals and Perverts is because I am still married to my same Bride for 56 years and your Bride dumped you.
You have most likely be come immune to common Spiritual Discussions and decency among a mixed group of males and females, most beng married couples, as well as Elders long on Spiritual Paths,
I think if Gurinder Singh makes these kinds of comments among mxed groups often, since having his Throat cancer, then perhaps his Chemo/Radiation treatments have destroyed the filters between his brain and his tongue, so I am able to give him a pass and excuse him.
But if he has been making those kinds of coments even before his treatments, for the last decade, as you say, them my advice to Seekers is, RUN, and don’t look back, because that kind of potty talk has no place among Spiritual Seekers attending Spiritual Conferences or Retreats!

Osho, perhaps the reason I was offended by the locker room sexual comments that should only be joked about by Homosexuals and Perverts is because I am still married to my same Bride for 56 years and your Bride dumped you.
Jim,
Don’t use that as a get out clause. So fucking what? if you’re married to the same woman? Maybe you need to get out more.
And if I was still with my first love, it would make no difference
And marriage itself makes no difference at all – it’s a piece of paper that we attribute special meaning to and it can be countered by another paper called a divorce
I was at a seminar a week ago, run by Richard Bandler and Paul McKenna
On NLP and hypnosis.
Now Richard Bandler is a world recognized authority
He is the co-creator of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) which is a powerful methodology for making profound and fast changes – much more effective than traditional therapy
Now – Richard is FAMOUS for swearing and offensive words.
On a scale of 1 – 10 Gurinder would be a 2 and Richard would be a 9.
In mixed audiences he used words like “Mother fucker” and other far more offensive words MANY MANY times during the weekend. This was a paid event. And he never once apologized
Here’s why. If you are offended – it’s YOUR problem – get over it.
Here he is – a world famous man (now over 80 years of age) explaining WHY he swears and why it is very effective in breaking free from old patterns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHM0Vh14x5w
He doesn’t NEED to swear. He does it for EFFECT
I understand that Gurinder has violated a moral standard of yours.
But can you not see that the moral standard belongs to YOU and is not UNIVERSAL? (it FEELS like it is universal to you)
The word “Decent” or “Rude” means different things to different people
David Lane in the article below (the guru has no turban)
described Ajaib gulping down a bottle of campa cola and then
letting out a loud burb – that’s considered RUDE – but not by him
It is YOUR moral standard that is the cause of your upset.
Let me put it this way:
Imagine for a moment that you are NOT offended by such words because you hear them all the time. Or better still – you yourself USE them all the time.
Let’s say you have no moral standards.
So now – would you be offended?
Clearly the answer is NO (it cannot be anything else)
So this means it is not the swear words or sexual language that offends
Those are just words – they have no power to offend.
What offends you is
What you do with those words in your head
The MEANINGS you make
But those meanings are YOUR meanings – you made them
They are not reality
So you made a meaning and that is why you are offended.
So this is the thought process
Axiom : A true master never swears or uses sexually explicit language
Especially not in public in a mixed sangat
Gurinder used sexually explicit language right in front of you (not hearsay)
Conclusion:
Therefore Gurinder cannot possibly be a true master.
All this is meanings we are creating
Read david lane’s
The guru has no turban
http://www.integralworld.net/lane11.html
you (and everyone) is living in a world of meaning that we have created
The world has no inherent meaning
Gurinder using the butt word has NO INHERENT meaning at all
The meaning (that it is WRONG) is made up by the listener
Jim concluded that Gurinder cannot be a perfect master
A guy sitting next to him concluded that Gurinder is cool
Same event – different meanings.

Quote Jim…..my advice to Seekers is, RUN, and don’t look back,
Yeah…run from you

Jim wrote:

I think if Gurinder Singh makes these kinds of comments among mxed groups often, since having his Throat cancer, then perhaps his Chemo/Radiation treatments have destroyed the filters between his brain and his tongue, so I am able to give him a pass and excuse him.
But if he has been making those kinds of coments even before his treatments, for the last decade, as you say, them my advice to Seekers is, RUN, and don’t look back, because that kind of potty talk has no place among Spiritual Seekers attending Spiritual Conferences or Retreats!


But Jim, you have previously told me, and others that we will rot in hell or worse for making such remarks because Gurinder is the perfect master and we are responsible for turning people away from the perfect master, which is very bad karma.
Are you not in for bad karma? because you was recently a believer and that is going to affect people more than someone like me
so what if you are wrong and Gurinder really is a true master?
boy, you’re going to be in real trouble. Better go inside and have a chat with Charan and check things out before going public.
I mean you do have access to Charan, don’t you?
Ask him what is up with Gurinder and ask him why he appointed someone who has such low moral standards

May I ask a question – satsangis will shun anyone who makes a sexual remark or start looking down or at each other and smirking. Point is how the hell did they have children – immaculate conception????? Many went to Haynes to look for future partners for them selves or kids – mind you!
It is concerning that the master made these remarks – thought being at his level his consciousness did not go below the third eye.

Here is the Sant Mat I subscribed to,……
“Sister, the real teaching of Christ is something quite different from just embracing Christianity. According to the teachings of Christ, we have to find a Living Master and the only way in which we can really follow his teachings is to be in the fold of a Living Master. Christ initiated certain people and took them to his abode. He indicated that as long as ‘I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.’ He said very beautifully to the effect that, ‘Now I am with you, but after a little while I shall leave you and then again I shall be with you. Now you have so many doubts, but when I shall be with you after a little while, you shall have no doubts.’
These are all mystic things. When Christ said that he was going to leave them, he meant only as far as the physical form was concerned. And that was said to certain disciples of his, and not to you and me today. When he said to his disciples, those whom he had initiated in his lifetime, ‘a little while and ye shall see me,’ he meant that he had not only initiated them in the physical form, for after he had left the physical form he should be with them in his Radiant Form inside, permanently. Now you see me in the flesh and now you have doubts, he said, but when you will see my radiance inside, after a little while, then you will have no questions.
He explained all this beautifully to his personal disciples, pertaining to himself as their Living Master. You and I cannot make use of that personality now. If we are really followers of Christ’s teachings, we have got to find a Living Master. We have got to know the teachings of Christ from him, and to follow those teachings, and then we can be led to Christ too, if we are interested to meet him.
Somehow we are just involved in personalities and do not give any attention to nor do we try to understand the real teachings of the personalities. If we understand the real teachings of Christ, the personality, we will know what he wants us to follow. He did his work and he left certain teachings for us to follow, but we are not paying any attention to his teachings. We are still trying to think about him, his personality. His disciples living in his time could benefit by his physical presence; but you and I cannot make use of his physical presence. We can only make us of his teachings, and in order to follow his teachings, we must have a Living Master. Then only can we be true Christians and then only are we following his teachings. From what little I have read in the Bible, this is very clear.
Christ also said that we have got to merge back into the Lord, ‘I and the Father are one,’ ‘I am in the Father and the Father is in me.’ He indicated that our soul is the essence of the Lord. Unless our soul merges back into the Lord, it will not get release from birth and death. He also explained that the Lord is not anywhere outside, but that he is within the human body. ‘Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Sprit of God dwelleth in you.’ Also, ‘Yee are the temple of the loving God.’ The living God is within you, so you have to seek the Lord within your body. You have to make a search in this manner, not outside. Then he told us, ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions.’ We have to pass through many stages before we can reach our destination.
Then he hinted that we have to knock at the door of our house, ‘Knock and it shall be opened unto you; seek and ye shall find.’ You always knock at a door from outside, and the door is opened from inside. We are outside; the door is inside, here at the eye center. We have to withdraw the consciousness up to this door of our house and ‘knock’ here. The method of ‘knocking’ is to concentrate here, hold our attention here, and the door will be opened from inside. There we seek, and shall find the path leading to our destination. Being on that path, we will find the Lord, whom we are seeking in the body. These are all mystical terms which we have to understand.
We also find in The Bible that Christ said, ‘If thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.’ When we knock at that door, the single or third eye, that eye is opened and we see that light. Until we merge into that light, we cannot travel on this path. Until then we are full of darkness and we cannot know or see our destination. Christ also talked about the Word or Logos when he said, ‘The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth; so is everyone that is born of the spirit.’ By this he is referring to the Holy Ghost, that Audible Life Stream, the Holy Spirit, the Sound Current that is within everyone of us, and we can be in touch with that only after we knock and open this door, that single eye or third eye.”
~ Charan Singh. “The Master Answers”

Osho wrote,….”But Jim, you have previously told me, and others that we will rot in hell or worse for making such remarks because Gurinder is the perfect master and we are responsible for turning people away from the perfect master, which is very bad karma.”
Me: That’s a down right lie, Osho. I have never said such a thing here , nor sent any one to hell. You are now exposing your true colors.

Arguna writes,….”May I ask a question – satsangis will shun anyone who makes a sexual remark or start looking down or at each other and smirking. Point is how the hell did they have children – immaculate conception????? Many went to Haynes to look for future partners for them selves or kids – mind you!”
Me:…….I never heard of any one making children by 69ing or butt copulations, have you? If so, post a reference.
There is a place for sexual comments among Satsangis, called “ Procreation” in Sant Mat Teachings. By Legal, procreation in marriage abiding by the Laws of each country, according to Charan Singh, who said Homosexuality was “Un-normal”.
Manjit freaked out by Charan’s remark and cursed him! Wonder why?
Gurinder allows Homosexuality and initiates Homos. He has no problem.
Most likely, why he has Butts and 69s on his mind,……that has not fallen below his Third Eye. 😇
I have no problem either, with Homosexuals or Lesbians, and know they are in transition from haven been another Gender in their past life which might take one or more reincarnations to completely transition to their current Gender.
But that does not allow them to be promiscious any more than it does Straights, out side of marriage.
But I fully agree with Charan that Homosexual life style is UNATURAL,…at least in most present Civilized Societies.
Brahmachara and Celibacy should be the norm for Sincere Satsangi Homosexuals and Lesbians.
I think most Sant Mat Masters would agree with Master Charan Singh.

Before I forget and while I am on a roll, in the first Q & A session I attended, some one asked Gurinder to please grace him with his radiant form.
Gurinder used an Oxy Moron to answer.
He answered,…….The Radiant FORM is formless,,
So, again, Charan’s Radiant Form to me was NOT formless, but in full body color, with Audio including his accent,
Plus, I have friends that told me they SAW Gurinder’s radiant form inside.
So Gurinder must be as Fakir Chand was,…i.e unknowledgeable regarding his Astral Projec tion to his Devotees.
I believe the friends who told me they saw him.

I can’t help to remember that night, on Thursday , the SatGuru
telling his 20 accompanying disciples
to wait and the entered a brothel
The morning came and only 1 disciple left
who said
I have no other place to go
at least ( brain cancer or not ) it will thin out
RSSB folks somewhat , – – But I’m not sure
Those who have united with Charan inside 24/7
and have experienced that this is the same
as uniting with Gurinder, The words and the always present Sound Stream
will not leave
There is no other such nice place to go
Every body understands that you cannot be concentrated for long on the second
and the Crown Chakra at the same time but why not in conception
of a Holy Soul
Now I think this over, I can very well mix the first Chakra with the seventh as well
the sound it always there with interferences as well
There should be nothing dirty around sex and our ass which are cultural defined
But here It’s above my pay grade Arjuna
Let be glad when you are 90% of the time at a very high place
Suddenly however I remember that Sawan told a man that complained about his super sex drive to double meditation
I never thought that yes ; when you fuck 5 hours a day and 19 hours engage
really absorbe with The SoundCurrent , . . is not so bad …. 🙂
But now I think Gurinder might disagree , but nothing is impossible
In Jesus Name say the Christians –
so with the real Name . . . Wauuuw
There is also definitely a difference between first life-rs and fourth life-rs
There is also a grand difference between earthly love and other eartly Loves
based on compassion
AND the degree the Sound Chakra Love can mingle in that eartly love
But let’s not go stones and just look in our hearts ( that s in the middle )
Best is to Love the Sound day and night , be part of it at all times
and know the Words are also just That
This is what was promised at initiation and a giant Bulk ofSaint guarantying
These Masters is what you find at the third Eye . . if you never passed there before
This Path is from a Genius who is a zillion steps before our slow passages
and amazes us through ( at least ) serendipities
Speaking of ONE :
It is Both
No God destroys what He created
annd you need more to dance the tango
We have the best of All Worlds between the 7th and the 1st region_sphere
HERE AND NOW
Enjoy
777
Bless everybody

Difference between Jim and Gurinder is that Gurinder is makiing serious things funny and easier to digest and Jim is making fun things serious and complicated.
Osho is right you came to Dera with your concept and picture and i agree with Osho you dont love Charan 100% your love to him is conditioned. Charan loved Gurinder.

Hi People,
It is all what WE do with our Path,because that is our very´own´
All kind of experiences we can have ,also bhakti…
It is our very ´own´ bhakti.
It is not going bad to us if we see through things.
For me it was schocking at first,but I see it as growing up.
Maharaji teached a lot..especially about Love!!
Baba Gurinder the letting go of things..
He is more ´human´
But Maharaji was my greatest Love..
I also had really trouble through pangs of separation..as written in the books forinstance Mira Bai and Bulleh Shah..
I myself could not eat,talk and was totaly strange and out of control.
So what I felt was´ where is the Master for the diciple in need´,I needed support.
Anyway..itś all how it has/had to go..
In the this stage we dońt know shit..
Just BE..
Vipassana is also very good.
Sometimes I to satsang to just be there..and see what happens.
Sometimes its very nice with btothers and sisters.
Sometimes itś boring when people are soo into the teachings,with wich I can´t keep up with..

The pangs and a sort of totaly home sickness,was after being in Dera for 3 months.
And being very young..
Later when I was in Dera after Maharaji left this world ..was also sort of shock..

I miss a posting before this last one..but anyways..

Osho, you don’t know the Scriptures, and is why you have become a Whore master and have not been able to stay with the wife of your youth, unlike me.
Repent of your evil ways and restore the love you once had for The Lord of your heart, which eill replace the present bitterness yoy have drawn up on your self.
😇😍💤💤💤
“For the lips of a strange woman drop as a honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: but her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword. Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. Remove thy way far from her, and come not nigh the door of her house: Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. Let thy fountain be blessed : and thy rejoice with the WIFE OF THY YOUTH.Let her be as the loving hind and present roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at ALL times; and be thou ravished always with her love. And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? “ ( Proverbs 5: 3, 4, 5, 8, 15, 18, 29, 20 )

Jim
If you on the path of Christianity that would be a different matter.
The bible advocates slavery too. Do you also buy into that or just the verses you want to select.
Anyway putting that aside
You go to beas. He says a few words that shock you and now you decide he is not a true master.
You previously told me that so many people saw grinder change into Charan which proved he was a true master.
You ignore the Babani episode and the making millions using his position and the fact that rssb is now about acquiring lots of property. And donation boxes dotted all over.
And you get offended by a few words which frankly prove nothing.
Just because he joked about 69 which he has done many times and used a word like butt you suddenly think he is a pervert and cannot be a true master and all the previous evidence you had now means nothing?
And presumably Charan singh must have made a mistake in appointing him?
But Charan was your guru. How can He make a mistake?
Or is it perhaps that you are mistaken.
Making jokes even if they have a sexual slant it no criteria to judge a master
If he was caught in some sexual scandal that would be different.
But you are condemning him for using a few words that offend you
And the teachings of rssb say that you must never judge a master.
Although I don’t follow him I certainly don’t condemn him. I like the fact that he has the courage to break free of the previous concepts of sant mat.

Jim
By the way I am not a whore master whatever that means and there are no medals for staying with the first woman you married regardless of what proverbs says
God, if he existed, would not be sitting around all day just checking who is still married to the first woman he met and who told a dirty joke.
Osho rajneesh purposely told sexual jokes just to offend people who put him on a pedestal.
There is nothing offensive about what gurinder said. The offence is in your mind because you feel he has not lived up to the standard of how a master should behave.
But he has never lived up to any of those standards anyway
You never had a problem before

Jim Sutherland,
Are you a betrayer of Sant Mat and the Sant Satguru’s? Is that why you are disrespecting the person whom Charan selected to look after the sangat? Which also means you disrespect your own master Charan who you say initiated you? Do you even consider him as your Master?
Are you even following the path or are you an Exer? You are the most vitriolic person I have ever read over the internet.
As per you who is the true master of the present time? Or do you think this world is void of any true master?

69s lol. Never thought that term would see the light of day in threads where we debate higher things! Keep it chaps – pardon the pun lol

Say if it is a all a test from Master and we have all failed miserably. Consider it for a moment – just consider. After all who knows what a real master looks like and acts. Consider my friends

Jim: “Manjit freaked out by Charan’s remark and cursed him! Wonder why?”
Hey Jim. Here’s the quote from Charan again, lest we forget his infinitely loving & perfect widsom and insight into the matter of homosexuality:
“In “Quest for Light,” a book containing extracts from letters written by an Indian guru, Charan Singh, the guru said:
“Please remember that anything that is against Nature is always improper and inadvisable. Nature has created the two sexes for the continuation of the species and for the satisfaction of the sex instinct within proper limits. If we go against it, it means we are doing something unnatural of which the laws of Nature do not approve. Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…There are no habits which we cannot break if we have the will and determination to do so.””
Yes, why did I “freak out” by this repugnant, ignorant & judgemental, published in official RSSB literature remark by the All Loving Godman?
Perhaps, as MBW also insinuated, it is because I am homosexual myself, and felt offended by this on a personal level?
I guess if I stand around with people making anti-semitic remarks and I say that’s repugnant, ignorant & judgemental, it’s because I’m a Jew?
Or if I stand around with men who make demeaning and sexually harassing comments about or to women, and I say that’s repugnant, it’s because I’m a woman?
The real question, Jim, isn’t why I “freaked out”, but how can any thoughtful person consider this to be anything other than the biased, ignorant, judgemental, erroneous & un-compassionate ramblings of a mundane human being with as much flaws and errors as the rest of us?
I’m glad you brought this up again, I won’t even argue the right or wrong, absurdity, non-spirituality, anti-wisdom etc about this remark. I will just let people read it for themselves:
“In “Quest for Light,” a book containing extracts from letters written by an Indian guru, Charan Singh, the guru said:
“Please remember that anything that is against Nature is always improper and inadvisable. Nature has created the two sexes for the continuation of the species and for the satisfaction of the sex instinct within proper limits. If we go against it, it means we are doing something unnatural of which the laws of Nature do not approve. Homosexuality is contrary to all laws of Nature and no decent society approves it. The act is humiliating and degenerating not only in the eyes of others, but also in the eyes of those who are involved…There are no habits which we cannot break if we have the will and determination to do so.””

I remember from the Santmat Prakash (discourses by The Great Master – Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj; I don’t recall which volume of the book and which discourse – I read it quite a few years ago):
(paraphrasing)
“It takes a lot of energy for the body to make the virya (seminal fluid) and bring the body back to it’s original energy level then why waste our energy in such deeds ? ”
And upon further asking by the disciple the Master said: “Do not over indulge yourself in it and never ever get engaged with any other woman, strictly just be with your wife (and the same is applicable to the women to just have the physical relation with your husband). When you keep attending your daily Simran and Bhajan with much devotion, your interest in the intercourse will start to decline with time.”
Arjuna
Have you ever experienced the rise of consciousness ?
As mentioned earlier by 777 in one of his comments related to money.
for the betterment of the planet and the betterment of all the living beings,
if he possesses . . Goldman Sachs, or exploits cam4.com
it makes to me no difference at all.
Now, that was in certain other context but I was mentioning you above the cam4.com
If you go and start to see the videos you might start getting aroused, and if you have experienced the rising of Surat in your body during meditation, just start doing your Simran even while watching the porn videos… if your inner focus is on Simran and the Sound Current, soon after you won’t feel that aroused and the same videos will actually just be looking funny indeed… even watching the 69 ones won’t let a drop of your blood flow to your private area given if your Surat is all sucked up.
Master knows the inner condition of every disciple in front of HIM and replies and sometimes taunts him the way which will be in best interest of the disciple. It doesn’t mean that the Master’s consciousness is not at the Crown Chakra.
By HIS super duper grace, for a few moments, HE allowed me to see HIS consciousness doing amazing things even while delivering the Satsang at Beas. That was not once, it reoccurred multiple times. It’s beyond the explanation of words.
Which also made me realize how important and graceful to be at HIS feet attending HIS discourse. An hour spent under HIS feet (with heart full of devotion and love) is equivalent to meditation of a very very long time.

Jim: “Now if that doesn’t sound like I was being held in a Cencentration Camp, than just what was it?”
Hehe. No Jim, your story re. issues with making a phone call REALLY doesn’t sound like a “concentration camp” AT ALL. Perhaps you need to re-read your history and re-adjust your sense of privilege and position in the world? 😉
Thanks for sharing your story here, it must have took some courage.
Though I’m a little taken aback at just how easily you found criticism with Gugu and RSSB based on material inconveniences, I can certainly understand your uneasiness with overt sexual references by the Pooran Sant Satguru of our times. As you may know, I posted about it over at RSS a few weeks or month or so ago.
Again, it should be made clear, I don’t have any of the hang-ups you seem to have around sexuality & it’s expression, even by “spiritual teachers”. For example, this Satsang by Osho I find infinitely more interesting than any I ever heard at our local RSSB centre:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCWCZU60iN4
However, Gurinder is the product of a very specific theology & cosmology, within which he represents the energy of “Nam” or “Shabd”. Within the RS theology, the energy of lust or “Kam” goes in the opposite direction to that of Nam, and it said where one is, the other cannot be “Where there is kam, there is no naam”.
There is a grand theological contradiction between what his position signifies and the words coming out of his mouth.
Though, no doubt, the RSSB apologists on this forum will conduct beautiful and breathtaking intellectual & emotional gymnastics to rationalise this all away. It’s just so easy to do!
Perhaps – and I actually mean this genuinely – there is more to Osho Robbins idea that Gugu is literally and openly changing the teachings – but only for the English speaking crowd – and this is just one more aspect to it? Perhaps this is Gugu imitating the Osho (in the video above)? Interesting!
777: “Because RSSB Initiation qualifies to BE the sweet Shabd, . . to be God
and you are not
777”
Hehehe. Much like all the talk of “love” on this forum by RS apologists – often even qualified with the words “RS Love” – all this “spirituality” comes across as very cultic, isolationist, exclusive etc?
Is that really love?
RSSB initiation “qualifies” “to be God”? Do you realise how utterly ridiculous that sounds? How utterly small your reality must be?
Look, I think some of the comments against you by a poster were unfair – I actually understand much of what you’re trying to convey (from “serendepities”, which is more popularly known as “synchronicities”, or your focus on the number 7, which is an extension of Blavatsky’s writings, to your experiences with the inner sound. Incidentally, to wrap things up somewhat, I recall you once wrote about Melchizedek – here’s a link to a story about “serendepities” involving Melchizedek and a Frenchmen, how could I not post it? The full story is in Vallee’s book Messengers of Deception I think, excerpt found online below:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rP4lCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255#v=onepage&q&f=false )
I just don’t think you really comprehend what all of that means, yourself.
It certainly isn’t any specific or peculiar to RSSB, Charan or Gurinder. These phenomena exist all over the place. How could it be, what’s so special about them?
How you’re reading this phenomena is where the error originates. The Serendepities are out to trick you.

one initiated writes (in his great wisdom taken from RS books)
“Which also made me realize how important and graceful to be at HIS feet attending HIS discourse. An hour spent under HIS feet (with heart full of devotion and love) is equivalent to meditation of a very very long time.”
well well well
Try telling that to Jim Sutherland.
A short time in Beas with the current master and his whole spiritual path is finished. He is now labelled an “Exer” and a defector of the faith.
He would have been better of not going then he could have continued in his delusion that Gurinder was the correct successor and not have to deal with the difficulty of Gurinder using words like Butt and 69.
Two words and his lifelong faith is over.
fuck me!

Jim,
Check out this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otGQqO2TYMI
Can you write factually exactly WHAT offended you so deeply?
Without the avoidance factor of mixing the pastor example.
From what I can gather, the dialogue went something like this
Questioner: blah blah – complaints (not sure what about) Jim can explain
Gurinder: You complaints are unfounded (or words to that effect)
Questioner: But Master,……
Gurinder: I told you – unfounded
Questioner: But Master…… Blah Blah Blah
Gurinder: You sure like your ‘Buts’ , huh? don’t you? (Gurinder is joking)
Do you still like your wife’s Butt? (this is a pun on the word ‘but…)
(This is simply Gurinder’s style of humour – nothing to get offended over)
Questioner: Master, I am 69, and no longer think of butts.
Gurinder: Well, do you know what 69 means?
Questioner: Master, Masters shouldn’t talk about things like that….
That’s about it from what I can gather.
Now seriously – I don’t think any person can find anything offensive in that.
And if they do – they need to get out more.
Because
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
– Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
Firstly Gurinder made a pun on the person’s constant but… but….
I can see nothing offensive and nothing to be embarrassed about so far.
Next: “Do you still like your wife’s butt?” – nothing offensive
He is not expecting an answer – as he is still playing on the pun
The question is Rhetorical
Then the questioner says he is 69.
This gives Gurinder another chance to continue the joke
All he asked was “Do you know what 69 means?”
The guy could have said “Yes – it’s one less than 70”
Instead of getting offended.
Actually its quite possible he was not offended and the only person to get offended was Jim
There is nothing in that dialogue that would make me conclude that Gurinder was a pervert or that he has descended into lower chakras and is no longer a true master
Come on Jim – are you seriously saying that two sentences that are not even explicit offended you?
You are just easily offended.
Is that the only thing he said that offended you in the whole trip?
If so, then you don’t have a case.
Seriously – you act like you’ve just uncovered a major scandal.
You need to relax and not be so uptight. Unless you have anything else
My verdict is “case dismissed”

This thread is so fucking funny! :o)
Two questions if I may:
1) Somebody (perhaps either Vinny or Juan, I cannot recall) posted up here a few weeks or months ago a quote from Kabir, I think, which said something along the lines of “the 5 words cannot help you”, a whole verse – can anybody remember the verse & poster, and if the poster is reading this, can you please cite the source for the quote, as I’ve never read it before? If it’s correct/accurate, which I’m suspicious of, it would be one of the most interesting posts here in years, and it got lost without comment?!
2) 777 – can I please ask, just out of curiosity, were you involved with any of the “order of Melchizedek” groups that popped up in France around the 60s and 70s?

Manjit repeated my
777: “Because RSSB Initiation qualifies to BE the sweet Shabd, . . to be God
and you are not
777”
You said : Is this Love
I should have said :
“and you are not initiated”
just factual not offensive
Later Osho gave 4 initiation in a row with Charan in the middle
He knew that THAT is exacty my doubt
so why that inconspiciously and without Date, Representative
I still believe Osho never was connected with the Sound by a Saint
and has no clu
Manjit : Your later questions
I never heard of such Melchisedek group here in France
You made me curious because who knows what kind of old wisdom they preserved
I will certainly read the Vallée book you gave
I have a book of him – He s a fine writer
777

Questioner: Master, Masters shouldn’t talk about things like that….
What was Gurinder’s answer
??
Jim said
He s quite different than on the Gaddi
I guess between the Q&A humor there are
a lot of lessons as was with beloved Charan
often catched by the target only
I had my share
but in this case the sex-waves go all over the planet and the web – WOW and Haha
Sorry Jim
My wife said the last butt should be but too
because probably the man has a wife saying all the time : but … this, but … that
the whole day
Now the 6-neuf . . . what does the Grand Jury think
Guilty or Innocent
777

777 writes:
“Later Osho gave 4 initiation in a row with Charan in the middle
He knew that THAT is exacty my doubt
so why that inconspiciously and without Date, Representative
I still believe Osho never was connected with the Sound by a Saint
and has no clu”
You write such nonsense. manjit knows me personally
he knows I was initiated into RSSB
Also – use your brain
I was an officially appointed NATIONAL speaker for RSSB
That would be impossible for someone who is not even initiated
and someone who has no clu has no chance of being a national speaker
so please – think before you write crap.
one of my satsangs is on youtube

Ken to Jim Sutherland comment above:

Jim Sutherland,
Are you a betrayer of Sant Mat and the Sant Satguru’s? Is that why you are disrespecting the person whom Charan selected to look after the sangat? Which also means you disrespect your own master Charan who you say initiated you? Do you even consider him as your Master?
Are you even following the path or are you an Exer? You are the most vitriolic person I have ever read over the internet.
As per you who is the true master of the present time? Or do you think this world is void of any true master?
Posted by: Ken | October 22, 2017 at 04:20 AM

The very questions you asked others are being asked of you now
because you have rattled the cage of the faithful
Now – you are being asked if YOU are an EXER
and how can you believe in Charan when you don’t believe in Gurinder?
since Charan appointed him?
Ken, Jim is just writing what happened to him and the conclusions he made from it.
He used to be one of the faithful – but now because he has said he no longer considers Gurinder a true master, now you turn against him?
he is the same person.
Just as Blogger Brian is the same person who wrote the RSSB book “Life is fair”
just because a person changes his mind – does not mean he is now the enemy (as in EXER)

At One Initiated – thank you for input but trust me – you do not know my story. Can you also explain why yogis who have made contact with this sound and light – have fallen at the sight of a gorgeous woman???? By the way I don’t know your story either.

Charan claimed no special powers
Gurinder also claims no special powers from what I have heard so why assign powers to them and then get offended when they act in a human way?
This is by Maharaj Charan Singh in his book The Master Answers:
Saints can do whatever they like. There is absolutely no restriction on them, but they generally do not like to break the law of nature.
We are always concerned with our Master. He is the Lord to us. He is God to us. We have to look just to our own Master and nobody else. We are not concerned how many Masters have been in this world before, or how many Masters are present, or how many Masters will come after us. We are only concerned with our Master and He is everything to us.
Newsletter:
The only way the mind will give in and give up is by listening and following our beloved Master’s instructions. We need to build a trust in him so solid and resolute, that whatever comes our way, we don’t doubt the path for a single second.
And to get there, he tells us that we just need to follow.
No more, no less. Not our minds, but simply follow the vows. Not resist. Not fight…not implore him for inner visions, but just obey. Like he did, like Hazur did before him, and all the previous Shabd Masters did with their Masters.
There are no quick fixes in Sant Mat. A true disciple must prove his or her mettle, and that can only be done by following the instructions of the Sant Sat Guru.
¿Are not the teachings based on the importance of the Master, Nam? Is’nt it the Masters not only talk, directly or indirectly, but also demonstrate to the sangat and newbies of their special powers through different means? Would most of the followers accept slavery or discipleship if these Masters made them clear that they had no special powers?
Why so big gatherings are arranged. Is it not to show their muscle, demonstrate the world their power?

To Ken , Osho , Manjit and all the others waiting with baited breath to further interigate and crucify me:
I am taking the same approach OSHO once gave to One Initited here. “ I don’t owe you or any one else here any response about any thing”.
I voluntarily posted my experiences, as I am granted Free Wiil to do so, and feel I have already been much more generous with my sharing than any one here deserves.
How ever, I am willing to continue being interegated by both the Devotees and Exers, ……when Dr. David Lane has the Cajunes to show up here, with me, to also be interegated and questioned by all, the same time as me, condidering, he has posted negative stuff about RSSB , Gurinder, Charan, Thakar , Kirpal, and others, while hyping Fakir Chand for the last 20 plus years!
I am not an Exer, primarily, because I have never been an INNER, or Fundamentalist yearly Dera Visiter, ever.
My Path has been……..just as Charan taught. …i.e. doing the best I can, not worrying about results, and leaving the rest to The Father.
I have done just that, and remained on the Path, most likely, stronger than any one I have ever read here, with the exception of a very few, in spite of haven read all of David Lanes Brain Neural Atheist books, his entire Chand library, as well as this site and Lanes Snake Pit site that drove away more sincere seekers who stumbled on to that site than Ishwar Puri will ever be able to initiate.
So, those with out sin, can cast the first stone.
I said what I said, and have ZERO obligation to say any more or explain further to any body.
When Lane shows up to explain why he has changed from being an Exer, and has changed his mind about Gurinder Singh, then I will reapper to be on the Stage with him to be asked the same questions you ask him.
P.S. when he appears, dont forget to ask him if he would have been O.K. when Gurinder joked about Butts and 69s if Lane , his Wife Andrea, and 2 Sons had been sitting in the Audatorium with me during that event.
If Lane would have been O.K. with it, then perhaps he has been contitioned by his time with Catholic Priests.
Any way, only he can say. He can write new Books, and edit old books until hell freezes over, but the cows wont quit moooing or get fed until he returns here in person and fesses up.

Haha Manjit i rarely hear you say fuck…just give me the fucking hammer!!! I am having this video from time to time now for years to make me loose and relaxed. Hey we can add this one too also a nice and great guy Ct.fletcher
https://youtu.be/aWACCWBzAmc

Actually I understand Jim somewhat really!
He did not,could not ,understand that a Guru talks like this.
I myself must say that I really love Gurinder..,But! I found him making to many jokes continous..
Some serious people from holland said he is sort of popie jopie which means wanting to be populair..
He is fine also..but what to say..he is so different in Punjabi satsang..
Now talking about all this.., he says once, when I mentioned him that I hate the chaurasi word,what means transmigration..He said then do´nt hear it!
In an evening satsang he also made jokes when I mentioned that that word ,I said the soul recicle and he had a Laugh..and said soul does never recicle and that was it..
In fact I still love him!!
But I dońt know him in his personal life,neither of us do right?
So what in fact are we talking about??
I can still have the feeling that he loves me back!! Really!!
But I make that all up..
Why would he love me,while there are so many diciples??
So I am not attached anymore to outside Guruś.
Only the LOVE real Love..is inside your very Own heart

Quote Osho: ” Now seriously – I don’t think any person can find anything offensive in that. And if they do – they need to get out more.”
I seem to be the only female posting here (and being ignored) about this subject. I find what Gurinder has said to be very offensive. I am old now and not at all interested in sex, in fact find it quite repulsive which is why I am divorced and living on my own. Living a wonderful, peaceful and dare I say it “pure” lifestyle now.
A so called ‘perfect living master’ would not be indulging in this type of conversation, even just joking about it. A pure mind is essential. After all, Sant Mat teaches that Nam (the divine creative power) is the opposite of Kam (lust, passion, desire).
So he is just another ordinary man in a position of power having fun and enjoying the game he is playing in fooling so many desperate people. Sad really…

For christ sake Gurrinder DID NOT OFFENSE!!!!
We know him now for almost 20years….No. He is not. 100000 and and 10000 of circle of stupid already 1000000 ties chewed debates!!!!
Swolen brains you have..

I have a question
Can anybody confirm Gurinder saying :
Now guys, stop in meditation making and
repeating your films . . .
Instead listen to the sound
It’s something I so wholehearted agree with
Make Fun, . . be Happy
777
ps
Elderly, . . no foetus position, but the vertebra as straight as you can
Now attention
In a silent place try to hear silence AND YOU CAN’T
What remains and you might have never noticed , . . . I t might be IT
in distant form
It s impossible to be in total silence 🙂
777
–
PS2
You want to go in ? . . . Go Brians !

777, here’s some fun mystical gobbledygook for you, just for a change…
Living momentarily, avoiding unseen forces, hearing voices … escaping the false light, running from imaginary gurus, caught in the matrix … wandering through the misty layers, never ending stories, nonsense in my ears, bells and gongs increasing… dying never ceasing.. on and on forever

Jen
RSSB is not at all hearing / seeing this or that
It is BEING THAT and nobody will believe
Imaging sister BE THAT – ” before Abraham , Sister, You are
When the Ocean comes to You as a Lover, be quick, don t hesitate , . . Marry Him
The Kings Falcon, for no reason has landed on your shoulder and has become Yours
Rumi
777
–

Jim wrote:

To Ken , Osho , Manjit and all the others waiting with baited breath to further interrogate and crucify me:
I am taking the same approach OSHO once gave to One Initited here. “ I don’t owe you or anyone else here any response about anything”.
I voluntarily posted my experiences, as I am granted Free Wiil to do so, and feel I have already been much more generous with my sharing than any one here deserves.

Jim, you are correct – you don’t owe anyone anything.
neither do I or anyone else.
I comment on here voluntarily.
I can continue or stop at any moment
but you are saying

I have already been much more generous with my sharing than any one here deserves.

now that gives a lot away.
deserves?
are you giving out some valuable information that is only for the deserving?
and now they are no longer deserving because they are asking hard questions?
let’s get this clear. Very clear.
NOBODY is baiting you, crucifying you, or interrogating you.
Those are all perceptions and show what is going on inside your mind.
We all live in a world of meaning that is created in out head
like a map in our head
then we mistake the map for the real world outside
and think they are the same
we think the map is the outside world
we think the meaning we created is really out there in reality
when really the meaning is our own creation
inside our head only – and meanings can change very quickly
There is a book called
“Don’t mistake a memo for reality”
the reality is just this:
Gurinder told a few jokes
the jokes offended you (but not others)
you created the meaning in your head that
“this cannot be a true master as masters don’t talk like that”
so – nothing has happened – just two jokes.
but in your mind (your map of the world) a lot has happened.
and the reason is that you have a CORE BELIEF
and the actions of Gurinder have contravened that core belief.
Do you believe in freedom of speech?
do you believe anyone is free to speak their mind?
Does that include telling jokes?
Now you might add “But my beloved Charan would NEVER tell such jokes”
That is true
But Jim, wake to the reality
Gurinder IS NOT Charan – in fact nothing like him
he is not meant to be – Gurinder is Gurinder – not Charan
So many examples have been given of how Gurinder behaves so differently from Charan
here’s the big question and I will boldify it

SO FUCKING WHAT?”

Gurinder could say
“Oh did I offend you? I am so sorry – but it was on purpose”
If a few jokes offend you – then seriously – you need to get out a lot more
little kids have an anti-dote
it goes like this
“Sticks and stone………………..
May break my bones………………….
but WORDS………… (and that is all they are!)
will NEVER hurt me………….”
and if the words DO hurt you then………..
it means………..
that YOU and only YOU are creating the hurt
Words are just words – jokes are just jokes
words have ZERO power over you
except the power YOU give them
Now imagine you are INDIAN or SPANISH or FRENCH
and cannot understand a single word of english
the same words are spoken – and the audience laughs
and you laugh too (so you don’t feel left out)
you will come back from that same satsang and say
“WOW – he really had everyone laughing”
same satsang – same words – different experience
Someone else – english speaking – but who fucking swears all the time
and tells sexual jokes every second sentence.
in the same audience – he comes back and says
“Gurinder was fucking Hillarious”
What is the point I am making?
You live in a world of meaning and meanings control your world
You do not live in the real world
This is all part of NLP – as explained in this video about our VALUES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D90rnFhLjZ4
Your values create your inner world
and your inner world is projected onto your outer world
and that is how you determine what is happening in the outer world
So, Jim, because of your inner values
your inner world changed and you projected that onto Gurinder
as the cause because his words went against your beliefs about what
is “GOOD, PROPER and RIGHT”
You concluded that Gurinder is out of line and WRONG
This affected you because there are unanswered questions in your mind
questions like
“How can Charan have appointed a jerk like Gurinder?”
so you now have a CONFLICT of values going on in your mind
on the one hand you consider Charan to be your guru
but Charan appointed Gurinder
so in some way – you will eventually resolve this conflict
and that means you will drop the whole sant mat ideas
or find a way to keep you connection with Charan while dropping Gurinder
It doesn’t matter how illogical – if you want to – you will find a way

Jim wrote:

To All the others waiting with baited breath to further interrogate and crucify me:

I have news for you
nobody is waiting for anything. Everyone is just carrying on with their life, doing their own thing. You are not that important.
You are not on trial – so there is no interrogation. That idea of interrogation is a meaning you are creating in your mind.
We are all just asking – you can reply – or not. makes no difference to me or others.
and there is not going to be any crucifixion because you are not jesus
so relax, take a deep breath
and wake up and realize
nothing has changed – except in your mind.
Gurinder has not become a pervert overnight
two puns on the words “but” and “age 69” does not equal pervert
except in your mind.
and if you are so advanced spiritually as you say – then please contact Charan Singh on the inner planes and ask him whats fucking going on, and use those exact words when you ask.
If he gets offended – you’re fucked
if he laughs – you can laugh with him
and that is Sach khand
and if you have no contact with Charan Singh – then get fucking real and admit that you are nowhere on the RSSB path because if you cant even contact your own guru at will on the inner planes – then you have not even taken the first step and all your ego is for nothing.
sant mat says that the path begins from the radiant form. Until then you are just on probation.
Then drop all your judgemental nonsense and either follow the RSSB path or don’t follow it. But stop kidding yourself that you are advanced.

Osho,
The jackass you talked about,
It appears you yourself called on your own phone to protect it … who is the jackass ? he he.
It surely proves over and again that your phone doesn’t have a soul, instead you surely have the soul to protect not only yourself but your phone as well. Even when the phone was about to get kissed by the spilled water on your table, your soul wanted to just pick it up asap to protect it.
You surely got a soul, indeed a jackass one … ha ha !!

Arjuna,
I think I have detailed my story on this forum a few times, but I don’t think it’s too worthy to search for.
You are more than welcome to share your story here with all of us.
To answer your question on why the yogis fails, is best given by the Great Master Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj. The 5 great commandos (kam, krodh, moh, lobh, moh ahamkaar) only gets cleaned up once you reach and succeed Par – Brahm and that too with the guidance of the Master.
If you are below that level any of the commando can shoot you at any point of time for they are deployed for this duty only. However, most yogis falsely thinks that they have mastered over the commandos and that misconception is the root cause of the fall of every yogi along with the fact that they didn’t get under the feet of the True Master.
I remember a text by the Great Rumi here (just adding the brief here): When a showman brings the Anaconda from the Jungle to the town thinking it was dead, to do a drama and make quick bucks and the fame. As soon as the afternoon’s heat fell upon the snake, it stretched itself and it’s mouth and first thing it eaten was the head of the showman.
Anyone below the Par – Brahm (most yogis and even most of us all here) – even when thinking they have mastered the Mind and the Commandos, it’s just because the snake is kind of in deep sleep but it still is as alive and dangerous as it can be.
Until they are not mastered, a great self control and the continuous Simran really helps keeping them cool and calm and not disturb you over and over again.
For example if you are aroused, the simplest and easiest thing is to just flush yourself, not only sex, but also consider masturbation. That doesn’t need a self control because that’s just a reaction to the situation. The control is needed to start doing the Simran and instead boost your Surat so that all the focus is sucked up and up and you will get rid of the arousal. It may take many minutes or even an hour and you start getting headache – but that’s the game then.
Also, the arousal will interfere over and over again for the day and also for the whole week sometimes as well… but it’s an amazing game to realize the power of Simran and Bhajan over and over again by defeating the stupid arousal. Sometimes you also get defeated as well, but that’s also ok, if you are defeated being with your wife/husband… but as the Great Master said, never over indulge yourself. Try never to waste your fluid – it takes a lot of energy to rebuild it – better spend that energy in arousing the Surat.
So yeah, the Path needs a lot of courage, dedication, devotion and self control to continue the progress with every passing day and every passing moment.
Lots of Love.

In regard to comments posted by Osho (Hi, Osho), Jim and others:
I think if I wanted to go the faith based route I would choose Jesus over Charan or Gurinder.
Why?
He’s got a better deal. He’s really liberal and not uptight about discipline at all.
Jesus doesn’t require 2.5 hours daily of meditation. You get more time for golf. All you have to do is accept him as your lord and savior, maybe pray a little bit and try to be a good person. That’s it. You’re in there. The pearly gates will open at death.
You can drink wine or eat a muffin that has egg in it. No worries about lard in the pie crust or rennet in the cheese ravioli. What a relief! No more waitress interrogation about ingredients. “I’ll have the waffles, please.” That’s all there is to it.
No more manmuhks or gurmuhks. People are just people.
And that compulsive mind-numbing simran. No need with Jesus. He’s got you covered. He died on the cross so you don’t have to worry about that stuff. Let your mind wander all over the map if you like. Think about what Kim Kardashian is up to. It doesn’t matter. Well, maybe throw in a prayer now and then just so Jesus knows you haven’t flown the coop.
You can even have desires. Like a bigger TV or a fancy car. Well, maybe thoughts of world dominance is going a little too far.
“But Jesus isn’t a perfect living Master and Gurinder is and Charan was.”, you say. How do you know what Gurinder and Charan are/were? How do you know who Jesus was/is? You don’t.
But what about Sar Bachan or the Bible? They’re just words man. Ideas and concepts thought up by somebody.
What is true for you now, right now, when ideas, words and concepts have yet to bubble up?
Don’t know? Need help? Want help?
Then I say, if you have nothing more to go on than words and fancy talk, scriptures and here say, take the savior with the best deal.
For me, that’s the one that lets me have mayonnaise on my avocado sandwich.

Osho,
You said:
“Just because you cannot make a thing that was alive, Alive again,
after it is dead, does not prove anything of the existence of something beyond the body.
If I smash up a computer and you fail to get it working again, it will not prove that the computer had a soul.”
My dear stupid and silly jackass Osho, You the preacher of Science, have you ever studied science ?
Exactly that does prove of the existence of something and also somewhere.
Read about the reversible chemical reactions where if the chemical reaction outputs a gaseous component and if it goes away, you can not establish a reverse equilibrium without again adding that component of the gas, and if you do – it proves the existence of the gaseous component in the output of the primary reaction.
And yeah, it’s impossible that you smash a computer and I will fail to get it working again, only if you knew about me you wouldn’t have said it. I can easily change the chips on the motherboards, let alone changing the peripherals which is super easy these days … ha ha .. It’s ultra easy for me to get it to working by replacing the smashed part.
But yeah, surely if manjit will smash your head with the jackhammer, he won’t be able to get you working again… even when you replace the nerves or tissues.
manjit, please be cautious before hitting Osho, for he also got the crown chakra 😉 .. but he is just behaving stupid that he doesn’t.
Jim is not an Exer, you are trying to impose this label on him. Too bad of you, Osho.
You are calling names to the Masters and others.
Learn from your friend manjit who is concerning and downplaying on Jim’s little material inconveniences.
Everyone knows here your story, you basically got your little twisted ego hurt big time by not being allowed to access your car for a few extra minutes. You applied your super duper IQ, “Master is gone, and hence every path should be freed open”
I remember Soami Ji Maharaj’s verse:
“Zara si taad maar nahin sehta”
English: “You don’t bear the slightest of scolding at the Satsang”
Paraphrasing:
You Osho will bear everything in the worldly affairs. You will wait for the tickets in cinema hall but you can not wait for accessing your car in Satsang. You can easily get scolded on daily basis by your boss in your job, but you still remain in that Job,.. And at Satsang just one word is sewadar says to not sit here or sit there for better organising you start screaming.
Especially when talking about the London, the most laid back city in the world.. full of beautifully rich and lethargic people around, can endlessly wait for the glass of water, for their next metro.
Their patience is amazing.
Where does this patience goes when you attend the Discourse of the Master ?
You expect everything to be perfect and delivered rightly in front of you, as if you are the Master there at the Satsang center and every volunteer is there in your service. Who are you ? A silly guy with a huge ego ? … who is in so much hurry to access his car or the car area ?
At Airport, even when there is no flight, no airplane is even landed, you are still not allowed to enter the parking area, you are ok with that… but how badly you are hurt when the volunteer asked you to still wait for a few more minutes, but it’s just your ego which got big time hurt as you are a national speaker you should be rightly allowed to access your car even when no one else is allowed for better organising. Your ego wanted an edge over others and that’s why you were hurt.
Your ego is giving every non-sensical reasons to cover it up.
You need not to blame the Master and calling HIM names for your own misdeeds and the stupid ego hurt. The reason is only you. You are hard at heart that’s why you got hurt. It’s impossible to hurt the soft ones.
Ever read the Sehjobai: She tells to walk the Path of the Master, you need to become soft like the Cotton that even the sharp sword will not be able to hurt you. The harder you are, the more you will get hurt… the less you will progress.
Just because of your such hardness and the ego hurt you started depleting yourself. And now you are proudly living as an Exer … and eagerly waiting to label any other one as an Exer as well.
What the heck you are upto ?
Looks like you are romanticizing the rotting after the death and trying to do everything to achieve it.
Once you hate or bash something openly, the ego even gets bigger … as how can you now go and attend the Satsang because you have already said so much negative stuff about it, how would you face someone who is there in Satsang and recognize you as the the Exer.
A tip for you: Everyone has to die alone, you should not care what anyone else will think of you.
You should think about your own journey. Do yourself a favor, do some “daya” on yourself. If you have become an exer because of your non-sense thinking and hurting your ego, you can become a follower again by lowering your ego.

One initiated wrote:
“Jim is not an Exer, you are trying to impose this label on him. Too bad of you, Osho. You are calling names to the Masters and others.
My response: If that is your level of perception, you need help.
I did not call Jim an “Exer” – I don’t even know what the term really means.
It was KEN who said that and I copied that comment to write about it.
basically the person who used to call other “EXERs” is now being called an EXER – ironic. That was my point.
Personally I don’t give a rats ass who is a believer or an exer or anything else.
and in any case – how do you know if Jim is an EXER or now – whatever an EXER is. He did say to everyone – “Run away from Gurinder’s path” which is not what a believer says.
One Initiated:
Everyone knows here your story, you basically got your little twisted ego hurt big time by not being allowed to access your car for a few extra minutes. You applied your super duper IQ, “Master is gone, and hence every path should be freed open”
Osho: I suggest you go read the account again. It had nothing to do with ego. It was about the meaning of SEVA – does it just mean to obey orders, or to actually be helpful? It turns people into zombies who are not allowed to think.
pretty much like the way you are now because obviously from these comments the process is complete with you.
One Initiated:
I remember Soami Ji Maharaj’s verse:
“Zara si taad maar nahin sehta”
English: “You don’t bear the slightest of scolding at the Satsang”
Osho:
You need to direct that to Jim.
The shabd you are referring to is about the guru admonishing the disciple
I am not a disciple and the people I was talking to were not the guru
so your comment if way out of context,
just like the rest of your comments which I will not even address as you are too far gone to have a debate with.

one initiated:
Once you hate or bash something openly, the ego even gets bigger … as how can you now go and attend the Satsang because you have already said so much negative stuff about it, how would you face someone who is there in Satsang and recognize you as the the Exer.
osho:
How can I go attend satsang? With my feet. I go anytime I wish to. I have no issue at all. I usually attend the national satsangs. I even go to the mic and ask questions. I am not afraid to meet or face anyone. I have nothing to be afraid of. So not sure what you are getting at.
and My ego is not hurt and I am not hurt. You are living in fiction land.

one initiated:
At Airport, even when there is no flight, no airplane is even landed, you are still not allowed to enter the parking area, you are ok with that… but how badly you are hurt when the volunteer asked you to still wait for a few more minutes, but it’s just your ego which got big time hurt as you are a national speaker you should be rightly allowed to access your car even when no one else is allowed for better organising. Your ego wanted an edge over others and that’s why you were hurt.
Your ego is giving every non-sensical reasons to cover it up.
Osho: I am afraid you really need help. When was I told to wait a few more minutes? That never even happened – you are making up stories in your head. And what as any of this got to do with me previously being a national speaker? Your comments are non-sensical – you must me hanging out with 777 too much.

Not to step on anyone’s sensibilities (given the heated discussion), but I have to say, I found this thread to be absolutely hilarious!
I LOL-ed away at quite a few of the comments. And one in particular had me almost literally ROFL-ing away helplessly : the “whore master” one.
Plain simple peasant lad Osho Robbins, all tousled hair and hay sticking out his collar, gets tapped on his Butt (sorry, I meant his Shoulder) with the royal Sword by his Majesty King Obnoxiosus LXIX, and hey presto, transformation! Arise, Sir Whore Master, resplendent in shining chain mail and visor! Blaring trumpets, swooning princess, fill up the rest yourself.
PS — Just (an attempt at) a joke — No offense intended to anyone ! Neither to the protagonist in my little tableau, who I know will certainly not take offense but will instead LOL himself when he reads this, nor to the character artiste who has absolutely no possible cause to but probably still will.
PPS — One Initiated, if you’re reading this — remember we had this discussion once, some time back, about smileys? I’d told you then that I don’t use emoticons. (And I don’t, as a rule.) Yet this is one comment that’s simply crying out for a real smiley (as opposed to the clumsy colon-hyphen-bracket). So I stand corrected about not needing to post smileys! Would you step in, please, and show us how?

Hi Everyone
I have been away from this site for a while and I come back to
horror shock
The great believer Jim Sutherland has had a wake up call
Guru Gurinder used some sexual language and Jim Sutherland is out for the round. He is telling people to run away from RSSB.
interesting turn of events
This is how believers become sceptics
something happens and they realise they have been conning themselves
Gurinder, like all so-called masters is just a man and he is having fun
and if he doesn’t like what someone is saying – he will use whatever language works – to shut the person up.
since it is his sangat, he is playing home territory so he can’t lose
nobody is going to support the questioner over their Guru even if the guru is clearly wrong.
Maybe the rest of you believers also need to pay a visit to dera and get the same shock treatment.
777, one initiated, Spencer, and few others – book a charter flight and get over there while the jokes are coming fresh and fast.
have a laugh and get de-programmed out of RSSB dogma
it’s a special two for one deal.

All you believers and RSSB followers take note
If Jim Sutherland can have his blind faith shattered so easily
then what does that tell you?
Your faith is fickle and paper thin.
Remember this simple truth
Brian, Manjit, Osho Robbins, Arjuna, Jen, Tuscon, to name but a few
were once all believers before they looked behind the curtain
Just like in the Wizard of Oz, the wizard is finally revealed for what he really is – no powerful wizard – but just a little man. Behind the curtain is a man pretending to be the powerful OZ
Just like in RSSB there is an ordinary man pretending to be the all powerful master.
And all you believers believe until Jim goes to Dera and has his belief shattered.
but he still holds onto the last remains
by saying that he still believes that sant mat is the highest teaching
and one initiated sticks his two cents worth in there
“Jim is not an Exer, you are trying to impose this label on him. Too bad of you, Osho.
You are calling names to the Masters and others.”
My God, are you believers so deluded?
Jim himself has told the believer to run a mile.
Ken has called him an Exer, which is what he is.
And one initiated is putting words in Jim’s mouth by saying he is not an Exer?
Whatever next.
This is getting funnier by the minute.
and One initiated,
the kind of language you are using on here is getting interesting
I would suggest you approach Gurinder to see if you qualify to be the next master
with a little training you are almost there
in fact you might even be able to teach him a trick of two.

Here is one initiated teaching Arjuna about sant mat
like he is the appointed authority
“To answer your question on why the yogis fails, is best given by the Great Master Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj. The 5 great commandos (kam, krodh, moh, lobh, moh ahamkaar) only gets cleaned up once you reach and succeed Par – Brahm and that too with the guidance of the Master.
If you are below that level any of the commando can shoot you at any point of time for they are deployed for this duty only. However, most yogis falsely thinks that they have mastered over the commandos and that misconception is the root cause of the fall of every yogi along with the fact that they didn’t get under the feet of the True Master.
Anyone below the Par – Brahm (most yogis and even most of us all here) – even when thinking they have mastered the Mind and the Commandos, it’s just because the snake is kind of in deep sleep but it still is as alive and dangerous as it can be.”
This is what all believers do.
They read something, or hear it in satsang. Now it becomes their knowledge and they think it is the truth because they have heard it so many times.
They have heard of SHABD, NAAM, so now that qualifies them to talk about it as if they know.
one initiated, you don’t know a thing. what you written above is simply copied from RSSB books. It is dogma.
What do you know of Yogis and where they go to?
How many yogis have you met?
I am afraid you are writing total shit. You have no idea at all
yet somehow you think what you are writing is the truth.
You are convinced, brainwashed by RSSB dogma and you mistake that for knowledge
Just like all the RSSB followers who think they are getting somewhere just because they have attended so many satsangs, so eventually they can preach the knowledge they have learnt.
but where have they got to?
Where have you got to? What have you achieved?
Jim has nothing but belief, and that too is now shattered.
what a wasted life

Septic,
It’s so good to see that at least Jim has given you, Osho and a few others a reason to have boils in your blood… and you are enjoying the excitement of the venom you are creating out of it.
At least you guys are happily dancing by thinking that Jim has joined hands with you – he he.
Good for you guys to be so happy and dancing in the filth – only thing is that you are not able to realize it’s filth, once you do, you will start disgusting yourselves and your deeds.
And please tell the meaning of Exer to your friend Osho, he is in dire need to understand some words which he himself has used more than ever used on the whole forum collectively by all other commenters.

Dear one initiated,
you need to go to school as you cannot even spell the word “sceptic”
Nobodys blood is boiling, except yours, which is why you write such total meaningless nonsense.
When did I say Jim has joined hands?
this shows the way you think.
non-believers don’t need company to validate their beliefs
that is what believers need.
you wrote
“some words which he himself has used more than ever used on the whole forum collectively by all other commenters.”
seriously – it’s not just spelling – it also grammar you need to learn.
Did you even go to school?
I can cite here so many examples of what Jim himself has written above
instead I will just write a few words and you can fill in the blanks
“concentration camp”
“incarcerated”
“Run a mile”
“Glad my wife was not there to hear this”
I could go on
but tell me
are those the words of a believer?
only a totally deluded believer like you would still consider him a believer

Well, that was intentional, isn’t Septic fits you better ?
Septic == Venomized Sceptic 😉

Hello Appreciative Reader,
Good to see you after such long duration.
Hope you are doing good.
Here is how you can do it:
Go to this website: https://www.emojicopy.com/ … select the emoji you want by clicking on it, click the Copy button and paste here in this text area where you are typing the comment by using the traditional “Ctrl + V” or by right clicking and selecting paste.
🙏🏻 Radha Soami Ji 🙏🏻

Hi Appreciative Reader
glad you’re enjoying the fun and games.
😁

Jiti Khanna’s resignation as an RSSB representative:
If a representative authorised to initiate on behalf of the Guru goes astray, in that case it is a must for all the satsangis initiated by that representative to get reinitiated to validate their initiation.
I assume Jiti Khanna was authorised for initiation.
Were all those satsangis reinitiated by the new representative or directly by the Master?

Juan,that is not the case in santmat the rep.is only the one who tells the words etc..
In fact it is funny you say this about initiation.
One can see the believe system is not very clear 😉

Dear one initiated,
you wrote:
“Well, that was intentional, isn’t Septic fits you better ?
Septic == Venomized Sceptic”
OK so that was intentional which shows what just how pathetic you are
to make comments like that.
And you are initiated? and this is what your guru teaches you?
This is the result of how many years of meditation?
Have you made any spiritual progress? and does it show?
obviously it shows in your attitude
full of venom and hatred. not looking good for you.
And I noticed you made no comment about the grammer
because that was not intentional – you just didn’t go to school,
and you are a retard.
which explains everything.
Your guru tells you nor to comment on websites
so you are going against your gurus commandments
and to top it up – you are writing complete shit.
You need to go back to basics because you are not on any
valid spiritual path
“By their fruits ye shall know them”

Hi Mike i hope your health is great and i hope you are strong. I agree with you yes Gurinder doesn’t teach bashing and attacking others. Thats why i could state here he would never say anything bad to you. I am totally against satsangis talking ill to critics . Cause why if critics really are best friends who can help wake you up from the slumber. And if satsagi really is he who lives with truth than he needs a critic to help him wake up till than he canot be called satsangi. I hope for all you guys to come together so you could not waste your precious energy for attacking each others. Hugs and live to everybody!

Here is a little story of Charan at a Holland visit
using the bathroom
in the house in Laren where he was staying some ddays
It was half an hour or so before Satsang in a local museum
One daughter of the house stayed in the corridor
after seeing Him enter the bathroom and waited there so to closely see Him
at Him exiting that bathroom
Now, . . she stayed that long until the Satsang began
and never saw him leaving
The was only one door
While she was still waiting
Charan was in the Museum, few miles away, as if this was
teleportation ‘ beam me over Scotty’
Can anybody from Holland confirm this ?
777
–
Still, I don’t accuse Charan of great Powers
His Master does all this !!!
assisted by the great circle of former Saints, who have a double good time
doing every quantum thing possible for a disciple
It s analog to the 90 minutes visit
Charan paid us in Europe while he was physically in India
of which I already told on this forum
( my Fourth comment or so, long ago )
777

Arjuna asked (way back on this post) so I pasting his question first
“Serious question Gurinder are you God??????? Are you the Alpha and Omega? We need answers – some of us are genuine and want closure. If you are reading this – I may self am afraid to ask a question – in case you say something hurtful. I thought God was love !!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Arjuna | October 21, 2017 at 10:54 AM”
If you asked Gurinder this question, he would say that he is not God.
He has quoted Paltu sahib many times

Palto ikoi Ik har, dusar nahin koi
Palto there is only the ONE and there is no other

This is so clear it is ridiculous that anyone can still think that Paltu is advocating a duality path
He is saying that YOU, ME, GURINDER, and even ONE INITIATED and JIM
and EVERYONE (to cut a long story short) are not separate
we have separate BODIES hence we get the illusion that we also have
separate souls and separate karma and that duality is the truth
Paltu is saying there is only the ONE. Everything else that you see with these two eyes is MAYA, illusion, not real.
The two eyes see maya and duality
The ONE eye sees oneness.
So in that sense – God (ONENESS) is all there is.
So then Gurinder is God, and so are you, and everyone.
not because we have special powers but because we are not the
body, we are not separate.
Like I could say – the ocean is all there is – there are no waves.
Clearly you can SEE waves – but they have no separate existence from the ocean. “The Wave” is not a real thing. You cannot separate if from the ocean and bring it to me.
The wave is part of the ocean. It is a phenomena of the ocean.
Only the ocean is real and the waves are not.
The ocean remains – and the waves do not.
God remains and we (individuals) do not.
The meaning of EGO is : The belief and idea that I exist as a separate entity (separate from the ONE). As long as you hold onto that concept you cannot attain oneness, because your foundation is separateness.
Anyone who is DOING something to attain oneness has the basic belief that they are a separate being and they need to merge, which is why they are DOING the meditation.
But it never happens because the separate cannot merge.
if is did – it would be an illusion, because everything in time and space IS an illusion – including you and me.
To come out of illusion – nothing has to be DONE. Only the discovery of what always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
This is why japji says, AAD SACH, JUGAAD SACH, HAI BE SACH, NANAK HOSI BE SACH.
meaning it is TRUE (SACH) from the beginning (AAD), will remain true throughout the ages (JUGAAD), is true NOW (HAI BE SACH)
and will be always (HOSI BE SACH)
it is just a long winded way of saying that TRUE means beyond all time.
(past, present, future)

Hi 777,
No I can´t confirm,because it was my sister´s story..
It is also not my way of´ believing ´things..
For me everything is in the ´inside´,not outside.
The master can be difficult..to understand..
So for me it has nothing to do with ´believe´.
The only way is inside..nowhere else.
Everyone has his/her own ways.
Much love,
s*

All names are God’s names, and yet He is nameless and formless. Discover Him in any particular form, and you will finally come to see that all forms are expressions of the One.
– Sri Anandamayi Ma

For those of you believers who are truly on the RSSB path,
I really don’t know what you are doing on this site for two reasons
(1) it is directly against your gurus orders (unless he has recently changed this rule)
and
(2) sant mat is based on experience not miracles and believing
The whole teachings are to go inside and see for yourself
As for making pointless comments like one initiated – well he may as well be non-initiated because those comments serve no purpose at all and just show he is not even a good satsangi.
I often make very direct statements – but I have no intention of putting anyone down for the sake of it – I am only interesting in making the point
and it’s nothing personal.
one initiated posts comments that don’t mean anything other than
“I am out to get you and prove I am smarter” and that is his only point.
What for? if you can’t make an intelligent point – don’t post
because it only shows how far you have fallen from your path, nothing more.

Dear One Initiated,
😀 😎 😤
Cool! I had been under the impression that only alpha-numerics can be pasted in this text box here.
That was neat. And so very simple. I was expecting some complicated programming acrobatics from you to get the prosaic letters to smile. (Much like the rather complicated way to introduce lists here in these comments. Like you’d showed me, earlier on.) This is way simpler.
Thanks very much, my friend! 👍
— Appreciative Reader.

.
Dear OSHO ROBBINS,
Hello, old friend. As you say, enjoying the fun and games. As are you, I know. That certainly, at one level.
At another level, though, this thread was instructive as well. The sheer viciousness of that crazy “whore master” attack on you took my breath away (while at the same time also making me laugh out loud, more at the amazing insensitivity behind that absurd remark than anything else). That particular remark of that poster, and the series of remarks before and after it, stand out for their sheer obnoxiousness (hence that reference to King Obnoxiosus 69 in my earlier comment, vouchsafing upon you that barking-crazy title/epithet). Those remarks stand out also for their unbelievable closed-mindedness and their mind-boggling offensiveness.
What also stood out, for me, was the remarkable self control with which you so gently replied to what was after all a direct personal insult to you, an insult delivered without the slightest compunction. How you so …compassionately and inoffensively and with humor, in spite of that direct insult, tried to show that poster the error of their reasoning (despite that garbled reasoning, in this case, leading them away from their “Master”, and therefore away from the straitjacketed religiosity you yourself so often come out against), that also was remarkable.
Truly the fundamentalist religious mind is a thing of wonder. It is closed-minded and impervious to reason. It takes offense at the most bizarre things, and yet does not think twice before hitting out at others with downright vicious insults. No wonder religiosity is so closely wedded with violence in this world!
You yourself chose not to meet insult with insult, and refused to hit back at that ridiculous (but nevertheless vicious) personal attack on you, but I couldn’t help speaking out on your behalf. With a somewhat half-baked attempt at humor that I hoped and expected you would appreciate and laugh at. I hope that attempted joke of mine didn’t come out sounding too crude! I don’t normally speak like that (and normally wouldn’t even dream of actually writing/posting in public in that manner), but given the context I felt it was apt. You yourself won’t mind, Osho Robbins, of that I am very sure ; but if any of the other readers here found my attempt at humor in questionable taste, then I apologize.
This thread was hilarious, certainly, but it was also instructive. It gave one a chance to look at the wondrous way in which the fundamentalist mind works. Your many insightful comments throughout this thread, surprisingly sympathetic and delivered with a light touch, were much appreciated!
My best wishes,
— Appreciative Reader.

S*, the process is more or less the same in all the cults, I know some cases of this type in ISKCON and even in some sects of Sant Mat as well, where the disciples had to be reinitiated, but as this is the first time I’ve heard of the RSSB, I was curious.
Maybe someone has more details about it.

The only way is inside..nowhere else.
Everyone has his/her own ways.
Much love,
s*
YES
You had that
I remember, that Night, . . on Thursday,
missing the Light,
running in the Bush and cried,
thinking You lost something
while overfowing, full to the brink
You still have it
777

Héééé
Guys & Dolls
Saint Peter took an ear !!
777
–

A lot of people here seem to have different ideas of the teachings. So much so, that it seems like there are as many paths as people who follow it.
Everyone seems to have their own unique beliefs and think they are true.
so….
I have a few questions for those who are familiar with the RSSB teachings.
Just simple true/false answers.
1. When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False
2. All the regions were created from Anami region. True or false.
3. The region known as Anami has no beginning and no ending. True or False?
4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false
5. The “opening of the shabd” – this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it’s bliss. True or False?

Hello Appreciative Reader,
Welcome back. I would like to thank you for your immense contribution in our previous discussions, on the topic of “objective”.
You opened my eyes to the fact that it’s all subjective. Awakening, enlightenment etc.
For some strange reason I was insisting that my truth was objective absolute truth, which is bullshit.
It was great having the dialogue with you and I think the “appreciative” part of your ID is apt.
stay cool

“ Whore Masters”……..are males who have sex outside of marriage, or cheat on their wives with Mistresses or pay fir sex from Prostitutes.
Whores are either working Prostitutes who sell their bodies for sex to Whore Masters, or give it up fir free.
Real Whore Masters are seductive males who are able to seduce females with out paying them money for sex.
There ARE real long term Karmic consequences for all that induldge in promiscious sex, including Homosexuals and Lesbians.
Master Charan Singh was only being kind to warn the karmic retribution about Unnatural sex.”
Allen Chronshaw posted this interesting Article on his Blog, as well as his facebook site, some time ago, that really drew a lot of solid discussion around what happens to the Astral Body of Whofe Masters and promiscious sexual preditors.
Of course, it does not apply to OSHO and other souless Atheists here, how ever the Article should be valuable to unmarried Satsangis or others still abusing their Astral bodies which will continue to keeo dragging them back to Charausi.
Read it and weep, with out killing the Messenger.
http://brotherofyeshua.blogspot.com/search?q=Astral+sex

is anyone has any answers to the five simple true/false questions I posted, please post your answers.
Jim, thank you for the “whore masters” explanation. I thought i was just a word that one initiated made up.

Osho,
Please scan back through comments.
I have never used that word, neither for you nor for anyone else.

Osho
1)
You are already in 1/7 – this universe floats in it, amongst xillions of them
Most who think they die go there
Most who enter here through a mother’s chakra tunnel(s) come from 1/7
By normal yoga, ascese, detachments some jeevas could unifie with the Power there
but rarely in one life
This karma regulation without merci is in the sphere of Jims education and mêmes , non rssb
as he just explained
2
Yes from 7/7 de top of a pyramid which creates Jeevas ( God+Ego) ; residing in 2/7
The Goal is to increase Love
The time_space Satch Khand is 5/7 – It is where you are free
3 Correct
In the sense that “time” is a non existing phenomenon at that that level
and proxies do it
4
No
You just use the wrong word
Dhyan is our capacity to “imagine”
At certain high levels this imagination results immediately in reality
Rather dangerous without patience to reflect on consequences
We are here also to learn patience
5
You can compare with going to a concert
and certain parts make you cry of longing
My private opinion is that every VG Compassionated human
( every 7 chakras based entity ) can hear this this shabd music
when s/he wishes
Further is this a smooth process like hearing the concert at a
grand distance, …. later you are a player even !
A Master is needed to do some working out
under HIS Guidance and prevent building ego
Also to regulate karmas hindering the process
He can easily re-create the big bang for just one disciple
( Part of reason you call me crazy )
777
°°
Dhyan – Imagination
It makes you capable to see f i the divine hood in a human (a Master )
It makes you capable to find your car keys
If you not Dhyan/imaging them you cannot find them even if you have them already in your hand
The expression “Oh kid , this is just your imagination is stupid
Everything is based on it
How could you have given discourses ???

TEARs flowing from the eyes is a real proof that Love is present in our soul.
I used to weep uncontrollably, , after I asked Christ to come in to my heart and take over my wasted life. Seeing others weep always made me weep with them.
After coming to the Path of the Masters, and discovering the world thru Sant Mat eyes, i.e. a Cess Pool that has trapped me, where my relatives and friends are nothing but thieves that hold me here, I became hardened and my tears quit flowing.
So my tears of love dried up from my hardened heart.
But I know that love is still in me, and surfaces on occasion, left unguarded.
I wept when I entered the Free Langar at the golden Sikh Temple and saw people eating together with out any separation of Class, Gender, Race, religeon, as it ised to be at the Dera bedore the rule changes.
I weeped openly when a Tibetan Buddhst Monk in a Monestary in Nepal welcomed me and folded hs hands, bowed his head, and prayed that I would have a long healthy prosperous happy life, than places his White Scarf around me neck. ( as I used to weep with those I used to pray for)
I wept when my wife ran to meet me with open arms weeping profusely saying she was so happy to see me and proud of me after I climbed to the Tigers Nest Monistary and returned alive taking me 6.5hours to make the dangerous Trekk up there to see the Monks and back.
At the Dera, not a single tear flowed. Only the hardness of my heart surfaced there, as I saw bery old Lades scurring around, with ther straw brooms, biding ther time, waitng to die, in ther chosen prison, thinking they were graced and specail ro be allowed to do Seva for us privy Westeners, who hardly gave them a notice inside Hostel 6.
Tears flowed as I saw The Great Masters Building thru the locked Gate, in all of its pristine Glory.
I am thankful ro know that I am still human, and that the Love of Christ is still in me, and has not left me, as my tears have once more returned as a wtness of His Love in me, The Hope of Glory.😇

Dear Osho Robbins
these are my answer to your questions.
I don’t believe in RSSB – but these are my answers to the questions.
1. When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False
False. Assuming that by first region you mean Sahans Dal kanwal / astral. This is where you meet the radiant form of the master.
From what I have read, this is an important milestone on the journey as it is said by Sawan Singh that half the journey is complete, and the bhakti is complete and now it is the master’s job to make the disciple from there.
I don’t think he is a perfect being, in any sense of the word. He will however be very different from most disciples as he can access his guru at will in the radiant form.
2. All the regions were created from Anami region. True or false.
I would probably agree with this. That Anami is the highest and therefore eternal (no time and space).
The teachings say yes, all regions are created from Anami downwards
3. The region known as Anami has no beginning and no ending. True or False?
True. Anami is the ultimate region. No Time No Space, hence no beginning and no end.
4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false
False. Dhyan is just remembering or visualizing the form of the guru, nothing to do with taking the surat up.
5. The “opening of the shabd” – this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it’s bliss. True or False?
False. Listening to the dhun has nothing to do with the opening of the shabd.
I don’t agree with these answers – I just gave what I believe to be the correct RSSB or sant mat answers to the questions

Moongoes – thanks for the link. I remember you posted this a few years ago I think, and I watched a few of his videos then, love it! 🙂 Excellent motivation for the gym, love his attitude!
Jim – you wrote “To ……., Manjit and all the others waiting with baited breath to further interigate and crucify me:”
Errm, actually Jim, I think my only real comment about your recent experiences was “it’s very courageous of you to share”, or some such, and a general agreement with your uneasiness around Gugu’s sexualised comments. To re-iterate, my comment about your courage was sincere and I meant it.
Jen – you wrote “I seem to be the only female posting here (and being ignored) about this subject. I find what Gurinder has said to be very offensive.”.
Not sure who’s ignoring you, your perspective is noted, at least by me? There’s not really much more to add to it, is there? I can appreciate your uneasiness with his comments. The path he is a guru of clearly suggests such comments are inappropriate, and it should be obvious many people would find them offensive or discomforting.
Jim – you wrote “Read it and weep, with out killing the Messenger.”
Why the hell would anyone weep about the absurd, ignorant ramblings of delusional folks? You write that as if those words are some kind of authority instead of the inane nonsense they patently are? Who cares!?
Re. your post sharing your tears – beautiful!
777 – you wrote “millions are applauding , trillions comforting him
but
5 exers
tell him He is unhappy”
Hey? No, not at all! Nobody is telling you you are unhappy – that would be ludicrous, how can anyone know?!
I think what you’re conflating is, an examination into the truth, or not, of RS/SB theology, with an examination into your subjective sense of happiness.
Isn’t it obvious? People can be happy following RS, Christianity, Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, atheism or whatever other belief system you care for. Likewise, OTHER people may be deeply unhappy following those very same paths. This is so obvious it doesn’t really require mentioning!
The posts by myself, Osho & perhaps others are not at all interested in your subjective sense of happiness, but rather the objective truth and veracity of the path of RS/SB. Imo and quite frankly, you haven’t made a single argument or comment which supports the fact that RS/SB theology is objectively true. You’ve just made claims about your subjective happiness following it. Great, but kind of two a penny and utterly irrelevant!
Cheers,
Manjit

Quote Jim Sutherland : “ … with out killing the Messenger.”
Nobody is killing nobody, but when the message that the messenger is carrying is barking batshit crazy we’re entitled to laugh at the message. And if the messenger happens to be a serial “offender” (attempted pun for “someone who insults and offends others” — and pun explained in single-syllable words to make sure the point is not missed) then, if they start acting BUTT-hurt, we’re entitled to point fingers at the clueless messenger and laugh even louder at the irony.
Just so we’re clear : What is being objected to at this time is not the message, outlandish and borderline insane though it is, but the conduct of the messenger. After all, one man’s superstition is another man’s cherished faith. For all we know, each and every one of us may well harbor some crazy ideas without being aware, ourselves, of the absurdity of what we believe. Pointing out others’ errors is one thing, but only a fool who has never looked within his own heart would laugh at what he perceives to be the folly of someone else. No, what is being criticized and ridiculed here is the complete lack of respect and empathy for others. Not some specific term that was used (perfectly idiotic although the term was, irrespective of which diseased brain first happened to think of it — and incidentally, tracing some idiotic idea to some idiotic internet link does not magically imbue that lunacy with reasonableness and suddenly make it acceptable, all it does is advertise to the world your outré reading preferences) — I was saying, what is being criticized at this time is not some specific term that you used, but the fact that you apparently thought it acceptable to accuse others publically of promiscuity and immorality just because their marital life happened to follow a course different from yours. If you somehow come to know of some unfortunate unpleasantness in someone’s personal life, and you make use of that information to fling personal insults at them in a non sequitur made for no reason other than to run them down because you happen to have a disagreement with them in some wholly unrelated matter, then in closely structured forums you are liable to get your ass banned for good for egregious offensiveness, and in open unstructured laissez faire forums like this you are liable to get called out on your conduct by whoever is so minded.
By the way, in case you were thinking of responding to me, don’t forget those childhood admonitions about not speaking with anonymous strangers! Not to mention your own past outrage at anonymous internet posters. You know, those sneaky sinister anonymous creatures that don’t announce their names publically, who are such abusive monsters, who delight in pouring personal insult on you, who blithely talk about punching your face, who try to use against you any personal knowledge about you that has somehow reached their ears, who make offensive homophobic and sexist remarks, who threaten you with perdition and worse for acting in ways that don’t conform to their own weird and regressive norms, who abuse their anonymity to do all of this online … OH WAIT, WHY DOES THAT COME OUT NOT SOUNDING RIGHT? All those who know, raise up your finger!
.
Short version : No, you don’t get to weasel your way out of this one by pretending that we’re unjustly taking pot shots at the messenger. But feel free to pretend that you haven’t seen this.

Jim, that last post of yours, put up at 3:43 AM, that was beautiful and moving. It seems Mr Hyde has left the scene, and made way for Dr Jekyll at the computer keyboard. I have no quarrel with Dr Jekyll, he seems a rather nice person. Irrespective of whether his ideas and perceptions and conclusions are right or wrong, he seems likeable and not without wisdom, much like our resident mystic 777. Too bad the good doctor carries within him the thuggish Mr Hyde who, instead of weeping tears of mystic intensity, spends his time insulting others and talking disrespectfully of their personal lives and preferences.
There is a magic mantra that the One True God (who as we all know is none other than Odin Allfather) has fashioned for just these kinds of situations. The actual formulation of the mantra may vary, but the end result is generally described by the term ‘apology’. Not to me, I am nowhere in the picture at all (except as disinterested onlooker who’s been moved enough to speak out on this occasion), but to the wronged party. I wouldn’t expect Mr Hyde to know that mantra, nor would I expect him to know right and wrong, but Dr Jekyll, who knows what it is to be moved to tears when faced with something bigger than himself, might. Just perhaps.
Whatever. No skin off my nose, either way. I’m out of here now — not from this thread, I find it very interesting ; nor from your account of your perceptions during your recent Dera visit, which also I’m interested in ; but I think I’ve had my fill of this heavy-duty scholarly discourse on Whore Masters — so have fun with whichever persona you now choose to next manifest here, mystic ecstatic, or opprobrious thug, or whatever else takes your fancy. You have my word that I won’t comment further on this thread, irrespective of what use you make (or don’t) of the Allfather’s mantra.

Manjit will you come back to mails?

Hi one initiated
I apologize. It was jim who used the phrase.
In all the excitement I didn’t pay attention.
Sorry for saying it was you.

“”” much like our resident mystic 777. “””
I would stop this nonsense, not knowing me
I have the most beautiful wife in the world with fantastic homour and fine IQ
YET , . . . me Love for Charan Singh was greater. So lucky : Her”s too.
I repeat : apart from vegetarism which was so easy for me because when my parents tried to put meat in me , . . . I always vomitted, . . . apart
from this non-virtue, I broke all the vows so many times
Wen HE died , it made no difference at all, because He is present ( more than physicall )
all the time , . . a part of what you call non sense
Read my first 5 comments here , and perhaps you understand
Through Charan , also so many Great Masters INCLUDING GURINDER are deliciously communicating with us.
I cannot imaging to be happier than the ever presence of the Sound in the Here & Now
My wife makes long walks with Charan, in other realities .. She is more visual . . . . ;
my HIGHLIGHT IS when I’m taken UP ( for no reason ) and then much more than in daytime
during f i a movie :
really BE THE SOUND
which is and always is and was the 5 Words and intensily the Master
See it like this:
the words are the Bow of the violin, using them, the Sound vibrates more;
takes You with Her
the sweetness is so indescribable that the first time it happens
you need a year to adept
Yet you feel so protected “against” this Love
Women might be more IN-feeling than men !
All this adventuring you do together with your Master -and He is so essential-,
take Rumi s poems and fill all the paper on earth with them
He can use all the non-culture words of the planet staying unaffected
In fact there is no dirt Jim.
He stays comfortable the LOVE The One from way, way before
the big bang
His Power is immense, . flabbergasting, @ trillion supernovas, terrific and sweeter than sweet.
Cheers
777

Manjit, I had never read your comments in the snake pit regarding what you called “Creepy.”
I was traveling and never had access to WiFi most of the time, so never kept up on my emails. I jst posted my photos when ever I had Internet.
So I just went back and found what you wrote, and was quite surprised to see the Synchronicity of the subject matter you wrote about, that set off a Red Flag for you, and what set off my own Red Flag alert while at the Dera.
Some thing isn’t right here!
I do hope it is Boy Talk infatuation only, and not suppressed Girl Action!!
No doubt, all will blow over, except here, and be covered up, and me labeled as a lyng Judas.
But surely, even my harshest Critics, surely know I would never lie about hearng such a statement with my own ears.
Your funny comments about his followers hearing him burp twice, then fart three rimes, and then go on to talk about 50 Shades of Grey would never even get notced.
That was varified and confirmed when laughter broke out from the Audience, after his jokes.
I never looked to see just who were laughing, but I surely doubt it was coming from many of the females there.
They Should have been embarressed, if they weren’t.
I also can’t help wonder what Babaji’s wife would thnk about her husband telling such jokes in a mixed audience..
From my understanding, aren’t Sant Mat Masters assummed to have taken an Oath of Celebacy as soon as they acceot the Role of Master, and cease all sexual relations with their Wives?

What I feel as truth is that we are unknowing.
Being in here and now..
Seeing how everything changes all the time..
Vipassana is also fine..
Just see what happens..
s*

JIM
“”From my understanding, aren’t Sant Mat Masters assummed to have taken an Oath of Celebacy as soon as they acceot the Role of Master, and cease all sexual relations with their Wives? “”””
King Akbar had 300 concubines.
He certainly did no oath
But for some disciples it may be ‘relatively’ good
It s Archimedes
Sawan said
If the holes below are bigger than the upper opening, . . yes it s difficult to fill the basket
It’s even more complicated
When the holes down under are closed and you are proud . . . . . .
May God help you to do less judging
777
–

Jim
Perhaps that buddhist representative had seen Gurinder making love
777

Again and relatively often true :
You want to be right
or
You want to be happy
Jim
Remember The successor to can immensly soften our burdens
but believe Him first
777

777 writes,….”King Akbar had 300 concubines.
He certainly did no oathl
Was he a Sant Mat Master?
The recent “ Love Master” was suppossidly celebate also, denying the charges against him.
But after he was incarcerated, and his Dera raided by the Police, they found a secret tunnel from the female Quarters to his Bedroom, and boxes of Condoms were discovered by the Police. ( according to India News Media)
His loyal followers are still deneying his conviction and say there is a Conspiracy against him.
Maybe they are right?

777,
I’m trying to decipher your recent comment…
King Akbar had 300 concubines. He certainly did no oath…
But for some disciples it may be ‘relatively’ good… It s Archimedes
Sawan said – If the holes below are bigger than the upper opening, . . yes it s difficult to fill the basket
It’s even more complicated
When the holes down under are closed and you are proud . . . . . .
May God help you to do less judging”
WTF are you talking about? I used to think you were a little off the planet in a kind of spiritual way but now realise you’re actually batshit crazy!
I don’t believe in God and I’m happy to be celibate and if you think that is being proud and judging… thats your projection.

At one initiated – thanks for replying.
At RS sceptic – I lost faith after seeing what happens in War but that is another story altogether. but that does not mean I am not open to the idea that there may be donething behind that curtain, I got a feeling it’s all a test and we have just failed.
And something really really bad does cone for us at death – but let’s not debate it’s pointless as we all find out in the end. X
God bless you all – signing out

I was initiated in the sixties. This is the Sant Mat that I followed. Things have changed considerably now under Gurinder’s reign. Found this in the comment section on a youtube about Charan answering questions.
“LSD and other consciousness-expanding substances led many in Syd Barrett’s circle to convert to a sect of Sikhism known as Sant Mat (literally “Path of the Saints”). Dating back to 13th-century India, the religion follows a strict moral code and principles of abstinence. “A lot of people of Syd’s acquaintance were drawn quite hysterically, with massive enthusiasm, into it,” recalled David Gale, a close friend of Barrett’s, when interviewed by author Rob Chapman
One by one, young bohemians of Cambridge made pilgrimages to India and returned profoundly changed. “[They] came back home, cut their hair off, threw away their hippie clothes, got suits, got a job, became vegetarians, stopped drinking, smoking and taking drugs, married women of the same persuasion as them, only had sex for procreative purposes, were advised to be ‘ordinary’ and to keep their heads down,” Gale continued.”
[Note comment – only had sex for procreative purposes] No mentions of butts and 69s in those days..

Jim wrote: (to manjit)
“No doubt, all will blow over, except here, and be covered up, and me labeled as a lyng Judas.
But surely, even my harshest Critics, surely know I would never lie about hearing such a statement with my own ears.”
Nobody will accuse you of lying because this is normal for Gurinder. He likes to have a joke. You didn’t think it was in good taste.
However, is it not obvious to you that the sangat do not have a problem with it. If they did – they would have abandoned him.
The sangat likes his humour so let them enjoy it.
You have the mistaken belief that there is something inherently wrong and sinful about telling a few jokes.
Osho used to make it a practise to tell many jokes. So many in fact that he had some sannyasins creating jokes for him to tell for each talk.
Most of them had a sexual theme. Nobody ever got offended. And if they did – there is a door to exit the satsang and the ashram. And he welcomed people to leave.
In fact he would encourage people to leave if they did not fit in.
Leaving did not mean that there was bad karma to deal with and the master will not come at death. They never taught that any master would come anyway.
Nobody ever called Osho a pervert because he told jokes. Telling jokes does not make a person a pervert. In fact most perverts are more likely to be quiet introverted people and would never tell a sexual joke.
You cannot limit how a master chooses to operate. It can be not to your taste, which is fine. Just like you don’t like certain food that other might relish.

“God Himself, sir, does not propose to judge a man until his life is over. Why should you and I?”
― Samuel Johnson

Now you have to be clear what “Judgement” means.
You can call an apple an apple and a spade a spade.
That is not judgement in the sense we are using the word.
for some strange reason, religious believers are unable to distinguish between making a statement and being judgemental.
Being judgemental means to add an element of “good” or “bad”
and to condemn the bad.
if you say something is “Sinful” or “against a commandment” then it is being judgemental.
However, when I say “Gurinder has changed the teachings” there is no element of being judgemental. As a matter of fact I like the new teachings. There is no element of condemning him or calling him bad.
The other example is that I said “donation boxes are placed in haynes park at national satsangs.” It is an observation. I can even say that the priorities have changed and donations appear to be a motivation now.
Even that is not being judgemental as I do not condemn.
Gurinder is the head of RSSB and therefore he makes the decisions.
I can like or dislike any decision he makes. It is not my business.
But if I condemn him by saying he is going to have to pay for all this and is going straight to hell, or is a whore master, that is being judgemental.
I re-iterated the story of Babani. My opinion is that the story is true. I could be wrong. It doesn’t matter.
I don’t agree with that treatment of Babani, if the story is true. However, I do not condemn Gurinder and think he is a little bastard and will pay for his sins (etc etc)
I let people live as they choose – it is their life. I don’t have to agree, and I can have an opinion, as long as I am clear that the opinion is MINE and mine alone.
So I observe and I comment. But I don’t condemn.
In the post about “Sevadars Egos gone wild at haynes park” I stated what happened. and my opinion about it. and I posed the question “What does seva mean?”
I don’t condemn the sevadars. I am simply observing and commenting.
My conclusion is that seva in RSSB means to follow orders blindly.
Some people like to do that and they are most welcome to continue. I have nothing against it. My “ego” has not been hurt because I could not get to my car a little earlier. I was not wanting special treatment because I was a national speaker. Those two ideas are projections from the mind of one initiated. Once again I am not condemning one initiated for that. That also is his freedom.
I really didn’t care what happened. It was an interesting event that happened. I was not hurt or offended. It was fun doing it and observing how different sevadars acted and reacted. Nothing personal.
In fact when the 5 sevadars came in the car to stop me, I said to them all
“I am going now – around and back into the tent as you have requested. However, this is not seva (in MY opinion only) as it is not about helping me or anyone else”
Subsequently Kamal made it clear to me by telling me that sevadars are not given the discretion to think. Their job is the follow orders only.
Which is also fine. It is the system that works for the organisation. If I don’t like it personally, there is nobody forcing me to be a sevadar. If others enjoy it – they are most welcome.
Observing and making comments is not being judgemental. Only if there is clear hatred and venom and condemnation.
Religious people have that characteristic because it is inbred. Their God is judgemental. Therefore so are they.
“Judge not, that thou be not judged” – The bible (not sure where exactly)
This is impossible for christians because now they will judge someone for being judgemental and in the act – they themselves are judging.
A story.
Four disciples are commanded by their guru to observe total silence for four days. They go sit in a room and one of them notices it is getting dark.
He asks a passing servant to turn on the light.
The second disciple turns to him and points a finger.
“You idiot – in the first minute you have failed. You have spoken”
The third disciple turns to the second
“You imbecile – so have you failed”
The fourth and final disciple observes all this silently.
But the longer he observes the more his ego inflates.
Until finally he can resist no longer and says
“I am the only one who has not spoken”

Osho,were you initiated by Gurinder or Charan?Great difference..to start with.
It is logical that people who are initiated with an ideal (not from them,but from Guru)are very disapointed or angry when it seems to be all different.
Anyways..By Gurinders installing the book treasure without measure came out.
It was all about maharajiś installing where he also said that he in fact could not be the master,because..he didńt seem to be byond enough,something like that..He even did not trust it himself and that was big very big shock to him,what could he believe when he was the master himself,who was not relayable..on..
This insight came later for me when I became shaky on the path.
I have had much much difficulties on ´my´path and in fact there was no help at all.
I was very intens in my bhakti for years ..
gave satsang also..and did lots of sewa,had satsangi friends.
Living alone..
By forinstance Buddhist meditations there are allways teachers where you can talk about all sorts of problems .One can talk about meditation and can stay grounded,what is totaly missing in santmat.It is a´believe´!!So diciples totaly depend on the master also the inner master etc..They in fact do not stay on their own legs.
I have also been angry and disappointed.
But attached to the sangat also.It is not easy to break away.
because if you ´doubd´you are not ok!!!
The last sentence ´you can not doubd´is esential.Because doubd can be good for insights,but that is not done in sangat.
s*

What I learned from maharaji was,that we have no free will..
And I agree with that.
I feel and know it.

Hi S*
I was in fact initiated by Charan, and I was in RSSB as a child. From the days we had home satsangs, by tape.
Later it was Charan who said we should run live satsangs and everyone was shocked and said “But we cannot sit on the stage – that is the master’s position”.
Charan explained that is was no big deal as you are just explaning the teachings.
Then a few people started giving live satsangs. Slowly a few more joined in, and just about everyone is ready to be a speaker.
Anyway – sorry about the detour into satsangs.
The point I am making is that many things also change within the same guru’s reign.
You wrote

It is logical that people who are initiated with an ideal (not from them,but from Guru)are very disappointed or angry when it seems to be all different.

That may be so, however, that is life. It happens in all areas of life. You get married to someone and five years later they have changed. You have two choices; work it out or make a sharp exit.
I used to follow Darshan Singh and used to go visit him in Delhi. I had a connection to him. He knew me personally. I would write poems. I was a path of love for me.
Then he left his body, and I met Rajinder once, and there was nothing there. I left and never went back. Of course others said Rajinder was really loving etc. But my connection was with Darshan and I couldn’t see any love in Rajindar singh.
Treasure beyond measure is a book that makes is clear that Charan made no spiritual claims.
According to Radha Swami’s own rules (from Sar Bachan) the successor must be going to the inner regions.
Radha swami teachings say that is a dsiciples goes to Sach khand, he can be appointed as the next sant sat guru.
If someone goes to the fourth only, he can be appointed as a Sadh guru.
If no disciple can be found who even goes to the first region then the line of masters comes to an end.

But attached to the sangat also, it is not easy to break away.
because if you ´doubt´you are not ok!!!

That is a very significant point. Leaving is almost impossible because the people of the sangat become your friends and it is often your only social circle. If you leave you will be very alone.
if you express any doubts – you are excluded. Jim just expressed what happened on his visit and it’s a big no-no.
He is called an EXER. Not by me but by Ken. I only copied ken’s comment to make a point. Personally I still don’t know what an exer is, if anyone would care to give a precise definition, because without a precise definition we cannot say what an exer really means.
Whenever I go to the mic, the sangat is already on edge. Why? because I am not considered to be an obedient satsangi.
Yet – my questions will be about the only real spiritual questions asked in the entire session. I am not there asking for grace or saying “thank you” or “I love you”

s*
you wrote

What I learned from maharaji was,that we have no free will..
And I agree with that.
I feel and know it.

depends on how exactly you define FREE WILL.
are you freely writing the above comment?
can you choose to write it or not write it?
can you decide to meditation tonight or
decide to go out and visit someone instead?
If you drink and drive and kill someone,
will you go to the judge and say
“I had no free will – it just happened”
And it’s also a huge statement to make
for instance if people believe it’s all in the lord’s will
then why are they upset when I go to the mic and ask a question or
have a discussion with the guru
is that not part of the hukam also?
If you say there is not free will and everything is pre-ordained
then
why meditate?
what is destined will happen – there is not free will
which means you are a puppet and not doing anything
in which case, how can there be karma?
karma can only generated if there is free will.
how can you be in karma if you have no free will?
If I create a robot and program various sequences into it
it will simply follow them. It has not free will.
if the robot kills someone, there is no karma for the robot because it is
just a machine, following a pre-set programme.
animals have no karma (according to sant mat)
even though they clearly kill to eat.
you cannot see any compassion in them.
because their mind is not developed like ours
so they have no moral standards
no concept of right or wrong.
hence no karma

Dear Osho,
Indeed what you say about sangat is true it becomes family.
About freewill I can not talk about that..it all depends on levels.
We are not robots and animals neither.
So not all questions can be answered.
I would like to really talk with babaji I mean really in rest..but that will not happen.
Not knowing is my answer..so I know not..
And that is very fine with me.
Thank you,
s*

Osho writes,…”Personally I still don’t know what an exer is, if anyone would care to give a precise definition, because without a precise definition we cannot say what an exer really means.”
Me: Actually, as far as Master Charan’s Theology is concerned, there are not, and can never be any Exers in Sant Mat after a Marked soul is initiated by the Master H/she was Marked for.
So that includes every one of us initiated by Charan. It was he that coined the “ Bulldozer Chain” idea, that once initiated, we can travel towards Sach Khand along with the Master voluntarily, or, we can choose to rebel, and then be drug to Sach Khand by the Master Bulldozer while we contnue rebeling, complaining, kicking, and screaming .
Obviously, we that post here are ALL Rebellious EXers of a sort , because we are not obedient to Grinder’s order to not post Sant Mat comments or share experiences on the Internet.
Thanks for your Initiation history, and childhood history in Sant Mat. You obviously have forgotton more about Sant Mat, as per the RSSB lineage than I will ever learn, ( or want to ) in this life time.
We are both extreme Rebels, which Fundamentalists still caught in their individiul group think hypnautic Web despise, and will always consider us Judases or Herotics.
I am used to being labeled as an Exer herotic from just about every organized Sect I have ever been invloved with.
I was born alone as a Rebel, and will obviously die alone as a Rebel.
But I am my own man, and know when to exit the building when donkies start looking like the Horse that has always pulled my Wagon. No exceptions.
I spent years taking all of the Courses to pass the ministerial Exams in the Bearean Bible School by the largest Penticostal Christian Denominstion on the Planet, i.e. The Assemblies of God, to be Licenced to Preach, and I was appointed to be the Pastor of a California Church after I was Licensed.
After mch success and a lot of expenses and work, I resigned from that Organization because of scandels, sexual scandels done by some of my Mentors who were Assemblies of God Ministers, such as Jim Bakkar, who was caught with one of the Church Gals in bed, and Evangelist Jimmy Swaggart, the weeping Preacher who had his own TV program and Bible School who was caught with Prostitutes in his car, TWICE!!
I resigned, then entered an Interdenominational Seminary, and worked like an Ox to earn, and PAY for all of my Degrees leading to my Th.D. Which I was really proud of.
I was Ordained to preach in any of their Churches accross the U.S. and as a Th.D. I was even able to teach in any of their Satellite Bible Schools accross the country!
But I again, rebelled, after they kept pressing me for detailed Records of my Ministry activities demanding to know how many Weddings, Funerals, How many Converts I made each year, the amount of money I made pet year, and they demanded their Tithes of all I Earned.
The problem was, I never charged a dime for my Ministry activites and earned all of my Salary by Industry Day work, but they still dmanded their Tithe!
So, I resigned, and returned all of my Ordination Credentisls, and enteted the Degree Program of the Rosicrucians ( AMORC ) and studied with them for ten years being initited in to all of their Secret Degrees.
But then, a scandel broke out, and the Leader was caught laundering money off shore, and I again, rebelled and left the Building!
So, in summary, once the poop hits the fan and something starts to have a fowl odor, is when I leave the building before I become part of the cause of the odor.
But I will never give up my God Given Morals to any one other than He that gave them to me, and that was never anther human being.
I am, and plan to remain, my own soul.

Isn’t that rather simpler to understand ?
In one of the QnA Charan Singh Ji Mahraj replied only a free soul can have free will, a soul is free only after Par-Brahm.
Even without the free will we are encapsulated in such frequencies where it’s impossible to remain alive without creating more Karm.
If we are hungry, we setup a meal for us and consume it why ?
Because we have a fear of death, in order to live, we consume and create further Karm even if we don’t wish to create them. Thus it’s a vicious cycle.
Essentially these Karm are then not freely created by us, but we are rather bound to do them. Which actually means we are bound by the setup of this life to keep doing Karm – without doing them we won’t be able to survive.
Everything is ordained certainly and we can not change it but we can surely make it happen with ease or difficulty based on our actions.
If by HIS grace, we are given this day to live, HE gave us the health to feel the hunger, HE gave us the capacity to arrange the soup, HE gave us the spoon to eat as well. What’s left to fulfill our hunger ?
It’s our action to pickup the spoon, fill it with the soup and consume it.
Also, it’s on us if we arrange ourselves the vegetarian food or the non-vegetarian food. HE gave us the capacity but left the final action on us.
That’s the prime reason that saints ask us to consume only vegetarian food (along with other vows), for they will create least of the Karm and we would be able to be paid off rather quickly.
If we really see all the vows, they are only towards keeping the Karmic account of the Jeeva to the lowest.
And that’s why there is meditation to break this vicious cycle, where we pay off these little day-to-day Karm and also earn the velocity.
Since we are in a position that we can not continue with this life if we won’t do Karm then at least we should do the Karm which creates least of the account.
I don’t remember the complete verse from AdiGranth:
“Khandeyan, peevandeyan… ”
i.e while eating, while drinking, while walking, while siting, always do your Simran, for that will help you pay back all of that very easily.

“”” i.e while eating, while drinking, while walking, while siting, while loving , always do your Simran, for that will help you pay back all of that very easily. “””
Hééé, OneInitiated : Nice line is that
Apart from the easy non meat , The first 5 years, I did That Intensively,
it irritated many, . . .
a certain moment it becomes automatic
next you start a second layer of Simran , overlapping the ‘automatic’
even a third
At initiating I thought Nothing of the vows I m capable to do
but this repeating at all times I CAN, . . . even easily . . .
Each loser can do that
So I did
Layer upon Layer upon layer
And Yes , I consequently couldn’t stop it doing, negotiating big $ contracts
and yes stupid yes : even that became so smooth
( sorry : I think now of Gurinder’s 260M)
Anyway : what a great line
Is it in JapJi ?- Can you give me the number or the page
I have Gopals translation . . . so beautiful
JIM
After so much shaking of faith in your life, . . do this too
Also, as Sawan advised : at every shake of faith
just read a paragraph in your nearest RS book
Yes you have morals and that’ fantastic
It’s what on the first Adi Granth page is metionned:
” How then become True ?
His Will – ingrained °° in You , Thou follow
Thus is Truth attained “”
°°
Ingrained is different in each of us
Most know we cannot murder
All other factors are relative
Hence King Akbar – The dancing Derwishes, The Satsangi who was formerly a chain beating
admirer of Mullah Omar or some one with an LSD DMT background
or descending african Hottentot tribe
We are all very differently INGRAINED according to our karm(a)
So happy that the constant Simran works well
So many secondary advantages too ( already profoundly discussed in comments )
JEN
What a relieve ….
Now you can take me with pound of Salt but not my
Te Deum Laudamus c.q. Magnificats for the super luxeous sweet anahabad shabd – WAAUUUUW
777
–

–
°°
Conscience
in french the word is conveniently not existing, but
some say : “Le Petit Voix”
The small voice
Sorrry I was not clear
777
PS
In german
Gewissen
Like : “Ich habe das gewissen ”
We once knew
77

jim wrote

I was born alone as a Rebel, and will obviously die alone as a Rebel.

Well – as a rebel, you might find this useful – or might not. Who knows.
WHAT ARE THE QUALITIES OF A REBEL?
The first thing: the rebel does not believe in anything except his own experience. His truth is his only truth; no prophet, no messiah, no savior,
no holy scripture, no ancient tradition can give him his truth. They can talk about truth, they can make much ado about truth, but to know about truth is not to know truth.
The word ‘about’ means around – to know about truth means to go around and around it. But by going around and around
you never reach to the center.
The rebel has no belief system – theist or atheist, Hindu or Christian; he is an inquirer, a seeker. But a very subtle thing has to be understood: that is, he is not an egoist. The egoist also does not want to belong to any church, to any ideology, to any belief system, but his reason for not belonging is
totally different from the rebel. He does not want to belong because he thinks too much of himself.
He is too much of an egoist; he can only stand alone. The rebel is not an egoist, he is utterly innocent. His non believing is not an arrogant attitude but a humble approach. He is simply saying, ”Unless I find my own truth, all borrowed truths are only burdening me, they are not going to unburden me. I can become knowledgeable, but I will not be knowing anything with my own being. I will not be an eyewitness of any experience.”
A rebel respects his own independence and also respects the independence of everybody else. He respects his own divineness and he respects the divineness of the whole universe. The whole universe is his temple – that’s why he has left the small temples made by man. The whole universe is his holy scripture – that’s why he has left all holy scriptures written by man. But it is not out of arrogance, it is out of a humble search. The rebel is as innocent as a child.
His second dimension will be not to live in the past, which is no more, and not to live in the future, which is not yet, but to live in the present with as much alertness and consciousness as he can manage. In other words, to live consciously in the moment. Ordinarily we live like somnambulists,
sleepwalkers. The rebel tries to live a life of awareness. Awareness is his religion, awareness is his philosophy, awareness is his way of life.
His third dimension is that he is not interested in domination over others. He has no lust for power, because that is the ugliest thing in the world. The lust for power has destroyed humanity and has not allowed it to be more creative, to be more beautiful, to be more healthy, to be more wholesome. And it is this lust for power that ultimately leads to conflicts, competitions, jealousies and finally to wars.
Now why is Indivar disturbed? Because his own heart does not know love, his own heart does not know trust, his own heart is dry. He has not known the joy of tears. Seeing others overwhelmed with joy and gratitude, he feels inferior. He is inferior. To hide his inferiority, he finds all kinds of logic –
that it is surrender, that this should not be so, that people are imitating each other. But you are not the guardian of people. Who has given you that responsibility? You are only responsible for yourself.

A rebel lives his life in total freedom; he does not allow anybody to interfere in it, and he never interferes in anybody else’s life. I have not told anybody to do anything. If something happens to them, I cannot prevent them because that will be interfering, that will be dictating.

Just a few days ago we inaugurated a beautiful fountain in the memory of J. Krishnamurti. I have received a few letters from the followers of J. Krishnamurti, saying that before dying he said, ”Don’t make any memorial of me.” Now it raises many questions. First it means he wanted to dominate
others, even after his death. Whether you say, ”Make a beautiful memorial for me,” or you say, ”Do not make a memorial for me,” it does not make any difference. It is the same. You are trying to control the future – after your death too.
But nobody will see the implication of it. Why should he be concerned with what happens after his death? And what can he do? Living people have been going against me in the courts. Do you think now J. Krishnamurti is going to be in the court against me, saying that I have been hurting his
feelings? And secondly, I laughed when I heard about those letters because a few of the writers of those letters are well known to me. They have been following J. Krishnamurti for forty and fifty years; they are as
old as he was. But they show by their letters that they have not understood him. J. Krishnamurti had said his whole life, ”Don’t follow me!” Now if he says, ”Don’t make memorials when I am dead,” then don’t follow him – make memorials! That is a simple conclusion – if you understand him.
J. Krishnamurti never accepted anybody as his follower, and now these people are writing letters as followers of J. Krishnamurti. He denied continually, for almost seventy years, saying, ”Nobody is my follower.” Listening to him, reading him, having interviews with him – these people still have the wrong attitude: they think they are followers of J. Krishnamurti. But that is their business; I have no objection. That is something between them and J. Krishnamurti.
But one thing! And how many other things have they followed from J. Krishnamurti? Only one thing – not to make a memorial. In seventy years’ teaching time, how many things have they followed? I know them; they have not followed a single thing. They have not even followed this most fundamental approach of J. Krishnamurti, ”Nobody is my follower.” They have followed nothing.
But this is very comfortable – not to make a memorial – and, particularly for Indians, it is very comfortable and consolatory that so much money is saved. ”The poor fellow himself said it was good; now we can say that we cannot go against his will.” But in what other matters have you ever
followed his will?

A rebel simply lives his life in the moment, with awareness, with no desire to dominate, either while he is living or when he is dead. He does not have any lust for power. He is a scientist of the soul – that is the fourth dimension. Just as science uses doubt, skepticism, inquiry, he uses the same methods for his inner search. Science uses them for objective reality, he uses them for his subjectivity. But he does not condemn doubt, he does not condemn skepticism, he does not condemn disobedience, he does not condemn a non believing approach to reality. He enters within his own being with a scientific mind.

His religion is not superstitious – it is scientific. His religion is not a search for God, because to begin with God means you have already accepted a belief, and if you have accepted a belief your search is contaminated from the very beginning.
The rebel goes into his inner world with open eyes, with no idea of what he is looking for. He goes on polishing his intelligence. He goes on making his silences deeper, his meditation more profound, so that whatever is hidden in him is revealed to him; but he has no preconceived idea of what he is
looking for.

He is basically an agnostic. That word has to be remembered because it describes one of his basic qualities. There are theists who believe in God, there are atheists who do not believe in God and there are agnostics who simply say, ”We do not know yet. We will search, we will see. We cannot
say anything before we have looked into every nook and corner of our being.” He begins with, ”I do not know.” That’s why I say he is just like a small child – innocent.
Two boys were discussing running away from home. ”But if our fathers catch us they will hit us,” said one.
”So,” said the other, ”we will hit them back.”
”But we can’t do that,” said the first boy. ”The Bible teaches us to honor our father and our mother.”
”Right. Then you hit my father and I will hit yours.”
Just an innocent and simple solution with no difficulty.

The rebel lives a childlike innocence, and innocence is the most mysterious phenomenon. It opens the doors of all the secrets of life.
Only a rebellious person is truly revolutionary and is truly religious. He does not create an organization, he does not create a following, he does not create churches.

I am not sure I identify with Osho’s description of a Rebel, but some of it fits.
Here is my Intro on my Facrebook site, that I wrote long ago and still stands.
“Other than this Facebook site and my little Blog, I am a figment of imagination. My Professional Biography is published in the 1992-93 edition of Marquette’s “Who’s Who In The West ” under Environmental Executives. My last Harrah before I retired was my last published Article describing my work. http://www.metalfinishing.com/view/5681/considerations-in-the-finishing-equipment-selection-process/.
So far, I have discovered, by experience, that 99.9% of life is working to avoid pain! The Key to avoiding the most pain, is to live in the moment. Learning to Live in the Moment is the best Medicine for Life! But, living in the moment is only the totality of past memories, and never the Eternal Future of our Soul. The reward comes as soon as we discover that eternity is NOT an endless individual existence, but rather the everlasting present moment. But living in the moment is only easy when we are having fun, and are healthy and without pain. When sudden unexpected calamities in life strike,….well, prayer, meditation, and visualization of some “imagined” future Heaven or Paridise becomes a Bridge to Spirituality and Religeon. My Blog is where I dabble with my spiritual speculations, and where some of my Seminary Thesises completed in 1984 are archived there. I write when inspired by spirit, as either “Eternal Flame” or “Marked Elect” as my Nom De Plume. My blog may be accessed at http://eternaloasisofsouls.blogspot.com/. Caveat Emptor! Since my Karma has ran over my dogma, and I believe I, as well as all spirits progress forward, or evolve, my philosophy may change moment by moment, depending on how ever my Creator chooses to inspire or use my spirit in the Eternal evolution of Spirit.”
Jim

This is a real eye opener.
Old sage means traditional gurus who follow the rules. Charan singh would come into this category
New Rebel would be someone who upsets the cart. Like Gurinder.
read the decide.
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD SAGE AND THE NEW REBEL?
The old sage was respectable, honored by the society in which he was born. He followed the rules and regulations of the people, he went through all the disciplines required for being a sage.
He was part of the social structure – and even though there were thousands of superstitions, ugly institutions, exploitation, philosophies to console the poor and the oppressed, he affirmed them. He was never against any of the institutions the society had lived with for centuries. He was a follower of the old, of the ancient.
In a way he was a simple man, but deep down utterly repressed, because all social structures are repressive. He was not an individual in his own right, he was only a part of a certain society or cultural group. That certain group worshipped him for the simple reason that he was fulfilling their ideals, their cherished goals. He was their representative.
For example, no Hindu sage has denied or condemned the ugly institution of the caste system. It is impossible even to conceive that a man of clarity and enlightenment could not see that the caste system is a special way of exploiting the poor and the oppressed. Man has behaved so inhumanly
with these poor and oppressed people; it has not happened anywhere else in the world. And this was happening in this country, which has created the greatest number of sages.
They talked beautifully about God, they sang beautifully about the other world, they lived a life prescribed by the society, absolutely according to the rules. The society was happy that they were so obedient, and they were happy because the society fulfilled their subtle egos – they were thought to be almost incarnations of God. So there was a mutual conspiracy between the so-called old sages and the social structures in which they were born.
The ancient scriptures of the Hindus, the Vedas, prescribes rituals in which not only animals have to be sacrificed to satisfy the gods, but even human beings have to be sacrificed – to satisfy a god that nobody has ever seen. But no sage of those days raised his voice to say that this is absolutely ridiculous, utterly irreligious, unspiritual. They all went hand in hand with the society,
supporting whatever the society’s beliefs were by their writings and by their living. Their only satisfaction was that they were worshipped. But to be worshipped is a tremendous nourishment for the ego. If the society wanted them to live naked, they lived naked; if the society wanted them to live in utter poverty, they lived in utter poverty. In a single word, the old sage was
just the opposite of the new rebel. The old sage was the obedient, ego-fulfilling, repressed being.

According to me, he was sick – spiritually sick. The new rebel is not going to conform to the establishment and its interests. He is absolutely unconcerned about his respectability, reputation, honor, worship; he is not in need of any of these things. The people who are empty inside need all these decorations.
The new rebel is an enlightened being – he is fulfilled and deeply contented. He stands aloof and alone, with a clarity about everything. He will speak his truth whether it goes against the society, against the heritage, against the ancient traditions, against scriptures – it does not matter.
To the new rebel, truth is the only religion. For truth he is ready to be sacrificed; for truth he is ready to be condemned; for truth he is willing to be crucified.

The new rebel is an individual, absolutely free from the chains of the crowd – even if those chains are of gold. He is as free as a bird on the wing. He will not accept any cage, howsoever precious. Truth is his religion, freedom is his path. And to be himself, utterly himself, is his goal. The old sage was a yea-sayer. The new rebel is a warrior – a warrior against all that is wrong and inhuman, against all that is stupid and unscientific. And there is so much stupidity proclaimed by all the prophets, all the saints, all the sages… so much superstitiousness deeply ingrained in every religion, in every tradition, in every society, that the new rebel has to fight his way out of all these entanglements.
His attainment of freedom from the old and the rotten, the irrational and the superstitious, is an absolute necessity to attain more consciousness. The more he fights against the wrong, the more he becomes right. The more he becomes right, the more he is at ease, at home.

The old sage was a pretender, a hypocrite. The new rebel is an authentic human being. He does not claim any specialness. He does not claim, ”I am the only begotten son of God.” He does not claim, ”I am the only essenger of God.” He does not claim that he is the reincarnation of God. He simply claims, with pride and dignity, that he is a human being.

One of the most beautiful mystics, Chandidas, has a beautiful song. I have never come across any statement of more significance: Sabar upar manus satya, tahar upar nahin – ”The truth of man is above all, and beyond that there is nothing higher.”

The new rebel declares the pride of man and the death of God – and the death of all saviors, prophets and messengers; because they were pretending to be higher and holier than ordinary human beings. The new rebel is a declaration of being nobody, just an ordinary human being – simple, sincere, alert and aware. Knowing himself, and knowing that everybody else is as divine as he himself is – the new rebel is a declaration of a spiritual communism.

All those old sages were ”superior beings,” and they condemned humanity. They condemned human nature, they condemned human instincts. In their eyes, to be human was to be a sinner. For the new rebel, to be human – to be absolutely human, natural, relaxed with your instincts, with your intelligence, with your intuitions – is the only spirituality there is. There is nothing higher than that. The old sages destroyed the dignity of man. They destroyed the pride of being human and they raised a hypothetical God to heights which are inconceivable. They did these two things simultaneously – reducing man to the lowest possibilities, and raising a hypothetical God to the highest of heights.

The old sage was anti-revolutionary. He was for those who were oppressing and sucking the blood of the people.
The new rebel will not be an agent of the bloodsuckers, of the parasites. He will not say, ”Blessed are the poor.” He will not say, ”Suffer your misery patiently, because after death you are going to inherit the kingdom of God.”
There is no kingdom of God – that’s why the rich people have never bothered about it, never even questioned it. They have allowed the priests to tell the poor that they will inherit the kingdom of God.
The priests know there is no kingdom of God, that there is no God, and the rich know there is no God, and no kingdom of God. This is a fiction just to keep the poor poor, just to keep the slaves slaves, and avoid revolution of any kind.
A young girl found herself alone at home one night, so she invited her boyfriend over. She took him into the front room, turned on the electric heater, turned out the light, poured him a drink, and sat him on the sofa. He stroked her hair, kissed her neck, then her lips. He crushed her to him, he
pressed her back, he laid her down, he lay on top of her. Then he stopped.
”Go on, go on,” she moaned. ”Don’t stop now, or I shall die!”
”But dearest, I don’t know what to do next. The movies always fade out at this point.”
One needs some experience. The humble, the meek, the poor, the oppressed, they shall inherit the kingdom of God. But they don’t have any experience of life and its pleasures, its joys, its songs, its dances. They will be simply standing there embarrassed, not knowing what to do.

–
A G A I N :
Love had no importance here, I didn’t see the word
This is like talking super bowl
by kim jung un
Radha Soami Path is about capturing LOVE
to become that Love which happens to be
The original sweet music
and all real icones are in That
Many are eating their b/w interpretation
of the wrong presciption
777
–

Jim
Perhaps not a the best idea to have on the
Beas Badge : “Eternal Flame” or “Marked Elect”
‘beggar’ next time
or when the King visits the States
7
–

777, my Flame will remain Eternal and I am one of The Elect, wth out any doubt, what so ever, according to Christian Calvinist Theology. I was Elected to be in Christ, this very life,
As for being Marked for Charan,…..even he can not remove the Mark. It was not by his choice I was marked for him, but by The Father’s Choice.
It has been a week since I have returned home, and I am feeling a little better from my exhaustion and bad cold.
Visiting the Dera was only 2 days out of my extensive 23 day Itinerary to Bhutan, Nepal and India, i.e. 12 days in India.
The Dera no longer will remain an infatuation or mystery for me any longer. My Dream has been fullfilled of vistiting there.
No doubt, haven never been there before, my experience was much different that those who have been there multiple times.
Not knowing exactly what to expect, exactly, and only relying on hear say, we were at the mercy of Sevadores from the beginning, right from the Train to the Taxi when we left!
When the Train got there, I kept asking when to get off, because we had 23 days of luggage with us, and being sick, both of us, were struggling to even manuver the luggage on the train, let alone trying to figure out how to manover it to the Dera.
Finally, when the train stopped at Beas, I was really worried, because they kept telling us we only had TWO minutes to get off the Train! So I was struggling to get 4 pieces off luggage off the train, and as I looked out the window, I saw two young men, with out uniforms or I.D. Running along side the Train.
When the train stopped, a man in the train that I didn’t know grabbed my luggage and threw it off the train almost yanking it out of my hand, while my wife was trying to jump off the train as soon as it stopped.
I told her if she didn’t get off quickly, she would end up in Amristar with out me, so she was hurrying!
The two young guys running along side the train grabbed all of our luggage and started running away with it like Bandits, with me screeming at them, and my wife screeming at me that Thieves had stolen our luggage!
As we were running behind them, with me screaming, one of them finally hollered “ Radhasoami”’ so I then knew they had to be Sevadores.
It seemed forever that we were running behind them, huffing and puffing, noses dripping, from our colds, until a very tiny car, was waiting with two men wearing Military uniforms then grabbed our luggage from the two young men, and threw it in the back, and motioned for my wife and I to get in the back seat, that he both could hardly fit in to.
But we both wedged in, than the Driver took off like a Bat out of Hell as fast as that little vehicle could go, with out saying a word to us.
I told my wife,…” I hope these Guys aren’t taking us to Pakistan to sell us as hostages!!
But I then saw the old Dera Satsanghar over the trees, so knew we must be headed for the Dera, and I began taking photos because I knew my Cameras and Cell phones would be confiscated.
It seemed to be a 3-4 mile ride, before we arrived at the Hostel 6 Gate.
As soon as we got there, we didn’t even have time to get our luggage to our room, when a Lady grabbed me, and said we were late for the Master’s Q & A so lets go!
She asked if I had a Translator. I asked what that was? She said I needed one, so brisked me accross the ally to the Audio Stall, and got two, one for my my wife and I, then asked if we had ear buds for the Translators? All this was happening faster than I could comprehend or understand, so I took out my IPhone ear buds and asked if they were OK. She said “ No, you will need to buy two sets for 600 Rupees.
So, I bought the 2 sets ( that I only used a few minutes, and my wife never did use hers, I later found my iPhone ear buds would have worked fine, because the ones I had to buy worked in my iPhone.
Then, as soon ad we had the Translators, and ear buds, we were wisked off to jump on a Golf Cart headed for Sat Sang. That’s where I briefly met the Western Rep and Dr. Rose, on the Golf Cart.
When we arrived at Sat Sang, my wife was seperated from me, and had to go to the female section to sit, with me to the Male section. My wife was so confused, she thought she was being abducted or being taken hostage and wasn’t wanting to let go of my hand.
Any way, after 90 minutes of Shabs by 6 Guys and 4 Gals, waiting for Gurinder to take the Stage, both my wife and I had not even had time to take a Whiz before we were scooted off to Sat Sang, so we were in pain!
But, we now both know there has to be a God that still loves us both, because we survived, and are now sitting in our Western Privilaged Comfort sipping a Hot Kona Coffer, strocking my Cat, and reminiscing about all of our Adventures while entertsining Osho, Ken, Aporiciating reader, Ine Initited, Manjit, and All
y’all.
I still feel sorry fir al of the old aging Satsangis thete, sweeling leaves and dirt off the walks with their old straw brooms that have hardly enough pieces of straw on them left to move a leaf.
And all if the other mindless, starring brown eyes that looked at me, as if they were losthing that they were sweeling while Zi was riding a holf cart, instaed of me sweeping, with them riding the Golf Cart.
Karma is a Bitch,….then we all die!
😇😍🙏🏻💤💤💤💤💤❤️🤡

Dear Osho,
People on this thread at least, IMO have more knowledge of the teachings.
I am sure, more than 95% of the satsangis have zero idea of the teachings.
All the satsangs, at nearly all the centers, are merely a sort of advise/ instruction/ advertisemt to get initiation, follow the master, bhajan, simran, darshan, seva, obey, please the master, be a gurmukh etc.
I would love to read your answers. Thanks

anyone else care to give me their answer to these questions
before I post the answers up.
most of you will be shocked by the answers and i will reveal the source of the answers too
A lot of people here seem to have different ideas of the teachings. So much so, that it seems like there are as many paths as people who follow it.
Everyone seems to have their own unique beliefs and think they are true.
so….
I have a few questions for those who are familiar with the RSSB teachings.
Just simple true/false answers.
1. When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False
2. All the regions were created from Anami region. True or false.
3. The region known as Anami has no beginning and no ending. True or False?
4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false
5. The “opening of the shabd” – this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it’s bliss. True or False?

Jim wrote:

777, my Flame will remain Eternal and I am one of The Elect, wthout any doubt, what so ever, according to Christian Calvinist Theology. I was Elected to be in Christ, this very life,

But Jim, all 777 is saying is that pride comes before a fall, and it’s not a good idea to be so proud of your attainment, even if it is true.
Nobody in sant mat really cares what the Christian Calvinist Theology elected.
According to sant mat – you must go to a guru in all humility, not pride.
There are so many sany mat stories about that.
One that comes to mind is Nand Lal Goya who went to Anandpur to seek out Guru Gobind. He had a bunch of flowers and started shouting
“Hearts for sale. Will anyone buy?”
Gobind sends a sevadar to call him over and asks him what he is selling.
Nand Lal hands over a flower, saying “I am selling my heart”
Gobind takes is and says “It is beautiful”
“What is the price?”
“Just one glance of grace” replies Nand Lal
proud of his answer, thinking Gobind will be impressed.
“It is too expensive” replies Gobind and hands the flower back
Nand Lal realises his mistake and hands the flower back
“It is FREE”, he replies, “There is no cost”
“In that case,” says Guru Gobind, “We have a deal”
You cannot demand anything and you cannot be proud.
otherwise you get nothing.
These are just the teachings of sant mat.
care to give me your answers to the five questions I posted before I give the answers and the source of the answers

Juan wrote

Dear Osho,
People on this thread at least, IMO have more knowledge of the teachings.

well only two people have answers those five questions I have asked. Once we get some answers, I will reveal the actual answers and the source of those answers.
Most people will get them wrong.

Juan,
my opinion is that everyone makes it up as they go along. Certainly there are many crazy ideas on this site that are not sant mat teachings.
sant mat puts a huge emphasis on love
but what is love? everyone will have their own answers.
Jim has now decided that Gurinder is not a true master. Can that be done in love?
Can he still love Charan, when he no longer believes in the successor that Charan appointed?
Also – all the believers that are posting on here.
Like Jim correctly said “They are rebels” because they are going against the commandments of Gurinder
Kirpal used to say “If you love me, keep my commandments”
Gurinder says “I am not coming at death”
most followers decide he is lying because they believe he has to come.

5 Oshos questions
1. I don’t know
2. I don’t know
3. I don’t know
4. I don’t know
5. I don’t know

Moon says “I don’t know” to all the questions
but
that’ would be ridiculous if it was true.
Like going to school for a decade and I ask
What is 2+2 and 2 / 2 and 3 X 3? and you say “I don’t know”
Then what have you learnt?
These are not mystical questions. Just pretty simple
a bit like me asking
“How many house meditation does RSSB recommend?”
the answer is 2.5 hours because they tell you all the time.
the answer would not be “I don’t know”

When you throw away theory than you just are.

I agree moon,
but RSSB is all theory. All beliefs.
saints, regions, purpose of life, karma, basically everything you hear in satsang
it is all theory
no chance of anyone throwing it away
as they collect more every sunday at satsang

Hi
I hand it to Jim for the recent post sharing his trip to Dera.
I believe it’s true to say that not every visit there for followers turns out to be a bunch of fluffies.
Sometimes it’s just about handling things when in India – chaos and cool things go hand in hand over there as I recall. Also, sometimes life changes big-time both during and after such visits. However only 2 days?
Is it not a guru’s job to shake things up to varying degrees?
Talking about the guru shaking things up I note with interest s*’s post talking of Grinder Singh’s comment in reply to questions about soul ‘recycling’ i.e. he (GS) said ‘soul does never recycle’. If true, (and I read s* correctly) such a comment links with one I heard when he also said ‘soul is truth’. Clearly a non-dual take on what soul is – ‘That’ which does not change. Such comment challenges the notion many satsangis have that soul is a separate, transmigrating entity and points to limitation in the associated belief system. This is good and make sense to me, however on the face of it is at odds with Sant Mat teachings, and I continue to be perplexed by it – Guru saying one thing and teachings another – a subject often discussed here.
Another useful way of looking at it comes via the Buddhist Eight-fold path approach taken by Rodney Smith. In the book ‘Stepping out of Self-deception’ (on Anatta, Buddha’s no-self teachings) he writes ‘We will not be successful if we believe in the unwise view of self or soul and have wise intention to merge it with God..Two things cannot merge into one unless both were inherently one in the first place’, here, Smith considers soul/self to be the same and both illusory beliefs – unwise views, counter-acting wise intention for realisation ‘that’ which is, has always been, what he calls formless awareness.
While some will argue that soul and self are different things, I like what Smith has to say as it logically points to reasons for the duality in Sant Mat teachings – the ‘unwise view’ that soul is a separate entity, something the current Guru seems to want to clear up in some situations, but generally not as far as I can tell.
To me, this must be of concern to RSSB folk especially those who think critically. I continue to be interested in all this because looking at notions of and uncovering what ‘Soul is’ remains an intriguing ongoing investigation. I also remain interested in the soul/shabd basis of Sant Mat .
Osho in response to your 5 question quiz – true or false according to who? Look forward to you revealing your source
Based on what I remember from the RSSB teachings:
False
True
True
False
False
Isn’t Anami supposed to be where its really at?
Best wishes
Tim

You know the expression :
Everything changes except change
There is nothing without change
The operation “make Love” makes Love ever growing
from zillion universes
Zillion to the power of that Saints streaming in
and become also ONE
The Creator is dynamic, not a static thing
777

Hi Tim Rimmer,
you raise some valid and interesting points.

Is it not a guru’s job to shake things up to varying degrees?

If we have the notion that we already know everything and we are right then it’s going to be a challenge to spend time in the company of any guru.
What will you do when your concepts clash with what he is saying?
If you say that you are correct – then he is wrong.

GS said ‘soul does never recycle’.
he also said ‘soul is truth’
Clearly a non-dual take on what soul is – ‘That’ which does not change.
Such comment challenges the notion many satsangis have that soul is a separate, transmigrating entity and points to limitation in the associated belief system.
This is good and make sense to me, however on the face of it is at odds with Sant Mat teachings, and I continue to be perplexed by it – Guru saying one thing and teachings another – a subject often discussed here.

If a person is to “Wake up” it doesn’t just happen randomly.
I went to my first non-dual guru and was very confused initially.
I listened to him, but the more I listened, the more I realised he was saying something very different from what I believed all my life.
At first I just thought he had it wrong.
Which meant I could stay with my concepts and remain as I was.
Slowly, it became clear that I have to drop my false ideas if I am to continue on his path.

For instance he kept on saying, “God is not somewhere in some place like Sach Khand and you don’t need to go there”

I was confused because the sant mat teachings made it clear that he was in a certain place – and they even named it. It was called Sach Khand.

He said, “Sach means Truth” and truth means eternal and everywhere and unchanging. So it cannot be a place.
This shattered all my beliefs I had held all my life
Then he said, “You don’t have to get to Sach Khand, and there is no journey, no car is needed, no time to arrive there”
“You are ALREADY IT!”
I could not understand what he was saying so he made it clearer
“You are not separate. You are already the thing you seek. Just open your eyes. Nothing to do. No Sadhana, no Journey, no effort, no attaining”
“Fuck me, What is he talking about?” is all I could think
I did think he was just a lunatic. That would have been easier than accepting the possibility that he might be right.

I asked him Why the gurus gave NAAM and said we need to meditate.
He said, “It is the guru business. To keep you separate and as long as you believe he is superior to you, you will remain enslaved.”
“But what do I need to do now? if not meditate?” was my next question.
“DO? are you nuts?” was his reply
“You cannot DO anything. There is nothing to DO!”

“But don’t I need to meditate?”
“Only if you hold onto the deluded notion of a separate soul” he replied
“There is only the ONE and you are not separate. There is no YOU.” he explained.
“No ME?” I asked in horror
“NOPE. The idea of a ME is called HAUMI or EGO”
“Drop this ME notion and the journey is complete” he said
“It’s that simple?” I asked in disbelief.

“Well yes,” he said, “But don’t kid yourself. just dropping the notion intellectually as a belief is not it, because they you are replacing one belief (I am separate) with another belief (I am not separate, there is no ME)”

“So then HOW do I realise the truth?” I asked, totally confused by now.

“You don’t do anything. Just hang out with me. Just listen intently. This is the meaning of the company of a realized being. Sooner or later, it will hit you as to what I am really saying. You will get an insight, an awakening. It will be very real to you, but not to anyone else. All they will hear is your words, and they will think all you have is words.” he said

I could get a sense of what he was talking about, but still I could sense it wasn’t real yet.

The actual realization happened a few months later when I went through a painful experience.
The painful experience was necessary in order to shake me out of my comfort and my mind.
But without his foundational preparation, the painful experience would not have shaken me to realize the truth.
Once realized it was obvious and it was not a belief. It was like coming out of a dream I had been in all my life.
I had not replaced one belief with another, because this was an insight and had great clarity with it. It was not an idea.
I could not go back to my previous state. It was impossible to believe now.

Tim Rimmer quoting from the book says

In the book ‘Stepping out of Self-deception’ (on Anatta, Buddha’s no-self teachings) he writes ‘We will not be successful if we believe in the unwise view of self or soul and have wise intention to merge it with God..Two things cannot merge into one unless both were inherently one in the first place’, here, Smith considers soul/self to be the same and both illusory beliefs – unwise views, counter-acting wise intention for realisation ‘that’ which is, has always been, what he calls formless awareness.

Truth cannot happen in the future. It cannot be that today I am separate and then after X years of meditation, I merge.
That is a time/space idea.
Truth can only be discovered, not attained.
The discovery is of what already was the case.
The ONE.
Two cannot become one after a period of sadhana.
It cannot be a merging.
It cannot happen as an event.
truth is ALREADY the case, regardless of my state of realization or ignorance.
The ONENESS is the case even if I have not realised it.
The ONENESS does not come into existence only after my realization

Anyone else care to give some answers?
then I will reveal the actual answers and the official RSSB source of those answers.
so far, nobody has the right answers
the answers will shock the hell out of most of you
but you can’t argue with the answers I give because they come from
an official and recognized RSSB source.
Jim, One initiated, Spencer, give it a go.
I have a few questions for those who are familiar with the RSSB teachings.
Just simple true/false answers.
1. When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False
2. All the regions were created from Anami region. True or false.
3. The region known as Anami has no beginning and no ending. True or False?
4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false
5. The “opening of the shabd” – this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it’s bliss. True or False?

Osho i have a question for you. Did Charan said inner regions are just level of consciousness or not? The answer could be found oficial from rssb

1.All powerfull?…???
2.I was not there.. I do not know!
3.I think no beginning and ending..but was IS beginning and/or ending??
4.I do not know about will or no will..so..
5.Shabd is always there..
Thanks Osho..
I like your nondual recognition..
s*

Dear Osho,
If you already have the answers and the authorized references as well,
why don’t you just go ahead and publish them ?
and IMHO:
Wouldn’t it be much more beneficial and will make most sense to first have reach / cross the state of Astral and then explaining/sharing it ?
Ofcourse there are certain basic identical things which the Masters always repeat e.g. the vows, the basic principles, the Lord – the Master and the Sound Current.
But, we should try to understand that it’s not a theoretical examination where we are seeking the best answer from the bookish knowledge.
When Master explains something to a disciple, mostly it’s specifically targeted towards that disciple and it’s understanding is always in between the lines; literally it may sound totally off the track.
I had encountered a similar situation. I was looking for the answer to a question which was troubling me for months and I was constantly asking HIM for it. It was more related to anxiety in life due to a certain event that had to happen with me, and when I attended HIS satsang – HE very clearly gave me the answer – it were just two sentences from HIM and I was astonished – it greatly removed my anxiety.
For those same two sentences, my fellow said what did HE meant by that ? it was unrelated to the continuity of the Satsang, I just smiled and had nothing to explain.
Today, after a couple years, it’s exactly going the way HE described in mere two sentences.
Again, this is very private thing to me and I can not explain what exactly it was, because I know the moment I will share it, I have to be ready to receive all the criticism and right now I am not in a mood, neither I have capacity, to see my very private and ultra beautiful experiences being criticized 😋
And, I will disagree here with the notion (don’t remember who mentioned it) that it’s just an online forum, and it doesn’t matter if someone bashes you or your experience.
Surely, it doesn’t matter, but it still transfers some energy when you read the opinions of others about something personal to you.
I think it again depends on the inner state of the individual. Otherwise, it’s not that we do not have any impact of each other when we are talking to each other via online forums, even being anonymous.
In my opinion we rightly feel what we all say to each other and in that way we are connected, just like a round table conference.
At least, this is what my current state is.
For the same question of 10 different disciples, the Master may give 10 different answers best suited for each disciple based on the individual state of the disciple.
If I really sit with the intent of understanding it and not to prove someone wrong and someone right, I find the real meaning of what the Master explain.
It may have been said that rising the Surat up at will and bringing it down at will is Dhyan, doesn’t necessarily means that it’s a literal explanation of Dhyan.
But, surely it guides towards the fact that by keep doing Dhyan, it helps more and more to bring the ability to arouse the Surat up.
Also, the more we practice the arousal of Surat, the better will be our Dhyan.
It works greatly in the lockstep mode.
Lots of Love.

–
–
ôsho;
This is not RSSB at all
Devaluated IQ versus beautiful Love
ArchAngels with 9999 IQ,
still licking their wounds, . . .
Just try to find a way to love HIM
777
–

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
On Saturday, October 28, 2017, 7:16 AM, Jim Sutherland wrote:
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
On Saturday, October 28, 2017, 6:57 AM, James Sutherland wrote:
Osho,
Here is my Go at your Questions. As I remember, Rai Salig Ram , the original RADHASOAMI Guru, the Hindu who coined that Name and Mantra, added that Name to the Anami Region, adding it as 3 stages above Sat Nam, the Sach Khand of the Sikh Religion , that RSSB Gurus still use, and are giving to Westerners at Initiation starting with Jamael Singh to this day.
You write,……..”Jim, One initiated, Spencer, give it a go.
I have a few questions for those who are familiar with the RSSB teachings.
Just simple true/false answers.
1. When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False
2. All the regions were created from Anami region. True or false.
3. The region known as Anami has no beginning and no ending. True or False?
4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false
5. The “opening of the shabd” – this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it’s bliss. True or False?”
Me answers, as I have been taught and “ kinda” believe after haven read all of the Soamibagh books published The Agra Parent Group.
1) False. He must reach Sat Nam or Sach Khand before becoming perfect, or complete, yet he will still remain in some sort of Duality State, because according to Master Charan, souls recognize each other there.
2) True,…..according to Rai Salig Ram. Anami region is where Radhasoami is. But that area is Soundless, Lightless, Formless, so Duality has ended there. But in my opinion, this is the exactly Neo -Advaita Oneness B.S. that you and other Oneness Techers are fooled by, even including Dr. Ishwar Puri, in spite of his 100s of Youtube Videos where he teaches Duality, because he teaches that we have Astral Bodies that live 1-3 thousand earth time years, and reincarnate or transmigrate back to material species after each death of the physical body, plus, he tells us we have Causal bodies, which is where the Akashic Records are Archived, where the forms of physical bodies are no longer present, and live 5 million years or more, in earth time, before dying , and the individual soul returning to Oneness. ( I will post what he said during his last Work Shop in New Jersey to the International Group that attended there. )
3) true,….according to the parent Agra Group. Yet, Charan said that the three regions added by the Agra group above Sat Nan were not separate regions, but are Subdivisions of Sat Nam, i.e. Sach Khand, which I agree with, and proves Duality still remains in the lower Regions of Sach Khand.,
4) True.
5) True
Here is what I posted on Dr. Richard Ruquist’s Ph.D. Site, who is an Ishwar Puri Initiate,……………
” Jim Sutherland In Ishwar’s recent talk in New Jersey Work Shop, he said that we are all in Sach Khand, right now, because “we” , never left there. “We”, are not even ” we”, because we are actually ONE, GOD. We are only imagining ” we” are individual drops of the ONE and only OCEAN. He said that God only moved HIS Awareness from SACH KHAND to Causal Mind, ( millions of earth life time/space lives) , to Astral Bodies ( 1,000-3,000 earth years time/ Space lives that reincarnate several times to physical bodies, that only live 100 years average , as imagined individualized drops of the ONE Ocean , but each drop is really GOD in Sach Khand, WHO is Totality of Consciousness. To those who were there, did I paraphrase it wrong? If not, it appears that Sheila Shandra in her song has it right in her Lyric,….” The Ocean refuses no river.” Are all Ishwar Puri Initiates in agreement with this Theology of us all being individualized drops of Totality of Consciousness only imagining we are in physical bodies listening to Ishwar, when in reality, He is in Sach Khand listening to himself because he is God, and so are we. Does every body agree with this Theology? I hope I am not the only one feeling like I am not God, and hoping that if I am in Sach Khand right now, then I must have bought the wrong ticket and boarded the wrong train.”
Ishwar Puri really is presently teaching that we never left Sach Khand, and are still there, but don’t know it. But, he still teaches that we are a Three Region Specie, i.e. ,Physical , Astral and Causal before we reach Sach Khand.
As most here know, yet don’t seem qualified to discuss, Dr. Puri should not be disqualified or written off as just a other Cult Master, in spite of his baggage he collected as a much younger man when he was banned from RSSB for ……
Being one of the last Sawan Singh Initiates still alive who actually grew up in the Dera, was a personal friend of Dr. Julian Johndon and Master Charan Singh, should not be taken lightly, or blown off in the wind in favor of any other Sant Mat Teacher. He certainly is more wua,ified than any one that has ever posted here!
Personally, I presently resonate with his present teachings about Sant Mat more than any of the other present Sant Mat Teachers, including Gurinder and Rajinder Singh’s. Especially now that I have become convinced that Gurinder has be become a Oneness Teacher.
I had read his two new latest books, just before I vidited the Dera, and told a Gurinder Singh Initite friend of mine thst in my opinion, those teo books were the worst books I ever read published by RSSB! Oneness was hinted at all over the two books, but what totally shocked me was Gurinder sYing that being initited by ANY Sant Nat Master dies NOT guarentee that we will get another human life, and that if we don’t meditate and keep the Vows, we can still transmigrate back to The zwherl of 84 and Charausi!
Bull Shit! I totally reject such a depressing morbid teaching, which would return me right back to the Christian Fundamentslist teaching of burning in hell if I didn’t quit sinning and stay shackled to the Dogma of Works instead of Grace, and Love by a Father forgiving the errors of His Prodigal Sons and called US back Home!
I totally REJECT all Neo-Advaita Vendetta Dogma, regardless of who teaches it, and have proven to my self ( and I Am a Self) that I can travel to, and return, from Duality to Oneness in Meditation, e joy the sights and sounds and experiences of the Journey, and still lead a House Holder’s life as as taught be the Great Master, Sawan Singh, and my Master, his Grand Son, Charan Singh.
Jim the Rebel Rouser Heritic
Sent from my i Pad — Jim Sutherland

Hi Osho
You wrote
1. When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False
2. All the regions were created from Anami region. True or false.
3. The region known as Anami has no beginning and no ending. True or False?
4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false
5. The “opening of the shabd” – this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it’s bliss. True or False?
There are three answers that come to mind when trying to interpret the teachings of an organization :
1. Read the RSSB books… There are many. Sar Bachan is a stunning work that goes into some detail on this. And of course, the great 5 volume classic, Philosophy of the Masters (Gurumat Sidhant) has an entire volume dedicated to the geography of the inner journey.
2. Send a brief and clear letter to the Master laying out your conception of the current teachings and ask Him to elucidate.
3. If you have been initiated, your meditation, conducted with sincerity, faith and love will yield enough experience to verify at least a small portion of that geography, and maybe more.
I am not an RSSB rep, and neither are you, but I honor the Path and my Master, so I respectfully direct you to seek the official word when trying to determine what that teaching actually is.
To say that my personal experience confirms the entire path, and that only metaphor can describe it, and metaphor is donor updated to our times, is not transferable or verifiable information.
Verification comes when you seek your own direct evidence from the source, either outside or inside.

Hi, Thank you all for your answers.
Jim – you are very close to the actual answers given in the official source – the Sar Bachan. All except answer to Question no 1.
I agree with your answer – but Swami Ji does not agree with us two.
so here goes….

The answers are all here in the last words of Swami Ji before he took his soul up for the last time into the lap of sat purush.

This is the original words of Swami Ji so can’t get any more official than that.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/30633238/The-Sar-Bachan-Prose-Swami-Ji-Maharaj
page 25 onwards
bachan no 3 says
To be able to send the surat up whenever you like and bring it down at will, is called Dhyan
so the answer to Question 4 is TRUE.
at least according to Swami Ji’s final words
Bachan 17: To hear the Dhun and enjoy it’s bliss is equivalent to the opening of the shabd – so Q5 – is TRUE
The other three answers are in the main bachans which start on page 29
Bachan no 4
Radha Swami Pad / Akah / Anami is immeasurable, endless and without beginning. (Q3 = TRUE)
Bachan 6:
The fact is that the devotee acquires all power when he reaches the first stage and is regarded as a perfect being or Mahatma. One who reaches this stage is freed from all personal and worldly dross. Q1 = true
Bachan 4 says It is that (anami) from which all other regions were created
so Q2 = true
So all five statements are true.
Teachings change significantly through time.
Q1 – no current teachings say a person in perfect when he reaches the first region. In fact Gurinder is saying even at region 5 (i.e. master) is not perfect – just complete. But Sar Bachan uses the word perfect and even says “free form all personal and worldly dross”
Q3 – Anami is beyond time and space according to this bachan. That is what no beginning and no end means.
Q4 – nobody uses Dhyan to mean what Swami says here. Dhyan is now considered visualization of the form of guru
Q5 – The opening of the shabd – all disciples want this to happen.
Lala Pratap Singh asks for the shabd to be opened. As if it was in Swami Ji’s power to magically do so. Swami Ji says “Listen to the Dhun and enjoy it’s bliss” – that IS the opening of the shabd.
very interesting.
This explains why so many disciples make it up as they go along.
you can find some statement somewhere to support almost any belief

Hi Osho:
Another reference to Sar Bachan that needs to be put into context to understand it correctly is in your statement…

Bachan 6:
The fact is that the devotee acquires all power when he reaches the first stage and is regarded as a perfect being or Mahatma. One who reaches this stage is freed from all personal and worldly dross. Q1 = true

Actually, in context Swami Ji isn’t saying that reaching the first stage equals the end all be all. It only looks that way to those who haven’t gone there. The first stage is a great accomplishment, and we are freed of personal karma (personal as in above our karma in this life…our Kriya, and as long as we stay there our Pralabdh, but not our Sinchit karmas at all… different convo…go there and you’ll get it).
In exact opposite of your claim, Swami Ji is saying that this is just the first stage, and there are others, higher, and even purer than this one. Much higher, much purer. And that the Saints, the true Saints know this because they’ve been there. And they can take us there.
Here is what Swami Ji wrote, in context. Please read it carefully, and openly.

5. Sddhs, Gydnfs, Bhagats, Incarnations, Prophets and other holy personages who did not reach the Real Home, all rank much below the Saints.

As, in their up­ ward journey, they stopped at different planes, and they founded different religions corresponding to their several attainments. The stage reached by any one of them was regarded by him as the final region, and the presiding deity of that region was looked upon as the Supreme and Almighty God, and his worship as such was enjoined.

This was due to the fact that all the differ­ent regions were created by the Supreme Being as re­flections of the Real Region, so that the lower regions also share to some extent the features and conditions of the highest, but there is a lot of difference in regard to permanence and other conditions.

Each region has its own distinct creation, marked by different grades of subtleness and purity.

Only he who has seen all the regions can appreciate the difference. Otherwise, the form and effulgence of the Lord of the region reached by anyone was regarded as limitless and boundless, and that deity was considered Supreme. The ecstasy of the moment of realization caused the devotee to lose himself in an indescribable state of eagerness and bliss­ ful intoxication.

6. The Surat attains to a different state at every stage that it reaches.

At each stage it feels as if it con­trols and pervades through everything below.

For in­ stance, on reaching the first or lhe second stage, the Surat or Lord of that stage appears to create and govern all the world below, as if he were its manifestor and supporter. And since these instructors had no know­ ledge of any higher region, they taught their disciples to regard the Lord of that plane as the Supreme God. Only the Sant Sat Guru knows of the higher regions. Had these teachers been instructed by a Sant Sat Guru, those higher regjons would have been revealed to them. Then they would have been shown the way and helped on the onward Path.

Likewise, one who crossed the first, second or third stage in the course of his upward journey, was looked upon as perfect. The fact is that the devotee acquires all power when he reaches the first stage and on account of that attainment, he is regarded as a per­ fect being or Mahdtmd. There is no doubt that this first region is much superior to the regions of lower con­ sciousness, and one who reaches this stage is absolutely freed from all personal and worldly dross.

“Looked Upon as perfect” isn’t perfect. They may appear all powerful, but they are not ALL powerful.

Hi Spencer,
I just quoted what Sar Bachan says.
I did not say that region 1 is the be all and end all. Of course there are other higher regions.

Likewise, one who crossed the first, second or third stage in the course of his upward journey, was looked upon as perfect. The fact is that the devotee acquires all power when he reaches the first stage and on account of that attainment, he is regarded as a perfect being or Mahdtmd. There is no doubt that this first region is much superior to the regions of lower con­ sciousness, and one who reaches this stage is absolutely freed from all personal and worldly dross.

it says above, “The fact is the devotee acquires all power when he reaches the first stage, and on account of that, is regarded as a perfect being or Mahatma” It adds that such a person is absolutely freed from all personal and worldly dross.
so the original question is copied below

When the disciple reaches the first region, he becomes all powerful. He is then a Perfect being. True or False

Sar Bachan says he becomes all powerful. it also says he is freed from all
personal and worldly dross.
It also says he is regarded as a perfect being.
I am not questioning that there are higher regions.
But it does say he becomes all powerful.
Now I am sure there must be disciples who say they go to the first region or higher.
Q: Are they all powerful? and freed from dross? and regarded as ‘perfect’
The current Guru must be going to Anami – the highest
and I don’t see anyone regarding him as perfect or all powerful.
So what does all powerful mean?
and what does perfect mean?
According to Sar Bachan there should be a lot of all powerful and perfect people around.
When you take an honest look around – is that what you see?
or do you instead see a lot of people just caught up in the dogma and the belief? waiting for the day….. when they will reach the first region
So many on here claim at least some spiritual progress. Are they are least up to the first region?
and are they all powerful?

the real surprising answers are
“Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan.”
I have never heard that called dhyan.
and
The “opening of the shabd” – this is the same as hearing the Dhun and enjoying it’s bliss.
but all disciples hear the dhun and try to enjoy its bliss.
it that the opening of the shabd?
does this make any sense?

Pratap requested the shabd be opened.
okay so now imagine some person going on the pic and saying to guru ji
“please open the shabd”
he could say “no – do it yourself”
instead imagine him saying what swami Ji said
“just stick your thumbs in your ears and listen to the dhun”
“enjoy the bliss of doing that”
“that is the same as opening the shabd.”
Who would accept that?
obviously Lala Pratap accepted it. But then he was hardly going to argue with swami Ji as he is about to leave the body.
Not good timing.

Hi Osho:
You wrote:

According to Sar Bachan there should be a lot of all powerful and perfect people around.

He didn’t write they were perfect. He wrote they were regarded as perfect. And that was only by ignorance of the higher stages. Try reading it again.
As for powerful, each of us is all powerful over something. If you can raise your soul to the first region you are all powerful over that. Not over any other region, not even over any other human being. All powerful…to come and go as they like to that region.
But if you re-read what Swami Ji spoke of, and cited above, this is not the highest region, and the individual can be deceived. In fact it is one of the lowest. They will have to return again. For some reason what Swami Ji wrote of extensively about the higher regions you ignore. You have simplified the Path to something it isn’t. The new teachings are yours alone.
In the Astral region also are all hells. And a few of the more lurid paradises. It’s not a super place. Only relative to this one.
Imagine visiting the Playboy mansion. At some point it will make you nauseaus. Yes, it’s cleaner than here in a way, the gardens are great, but the diversions are just a finer form of corruption and actually repugnant.
And as for power over the region they had obtained, again, you must understand what power really is.
“All powerful” is not over that region. Just over one’s own capacity. They had the power to get there. They became all powerful in that respect. Anyone who understands their power certainly respects it. But they are not the Lords of that region. And praying to the Lords of that first region, who is Kal, actually, they ensure their continuing imprisonment.
As for free of personal karma…that’s the karma for that persona in that life. When you visit the Astra l region (I don’t recommend it unless you want to be tempted by addicitons from which you many never recover in this life), you are temporarily freed of Kria…your actions there have no impact on your store of karma. And you are temporarily freed of your Pralabdh karma…you are not under the influence of your persona there…you can see things calmly from a higher perspective. The moment you return here, you must resume all that. And all your sinchit karma remains intact. The only way to burn that is through Master and Shabd. Only He can do that.

And just for all you Atheists out there…….
These experiences of deep and extensive meditation, and the writings of the saints down through the ages that parallel the same experiences, might just be travel through regions of the unconscious mind….things built within the physical brain.
They are real experiences, not delusions, and they are a part of this creation, albeit a finer part.
But you can certainly consider them as physiological parts of the human mind and body. Whether they are connected to it or whether they are physically part of it. Not delusions. Experiences of things brought to conscious awareness that exist all the time in the unconscious state.
There is no need to hypothesize anything else to understand the legitimacy of these experiences of the higher regions. And the utility in becoming whole and integrated, in raising to conscious awareness these parts of yourself through meditation practice.

And it’s the time for Standing Ovation
👫 👫 👫 👫 👫
👏👏👏👏👏
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😊

for Osho.
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😉

Hi Osho:
It’s great you are reading Sar Bachan. There is a bit of misunderstanding of what you read, and I’d like to review in context, to help, one such passage.
You wrote:

4. Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan. True or false

Then you tried to refer to Sar Bachan, and here is where you get into trouble with taking this out of context, and missing what Swami Ji actually was saying.
page 25 onwards

bachan no 3 says
To be able to send the surat up whenever you like and bring it down at will, is called Dhyan
so the answer to Question 4 is TRUE.
at least according to Swami Ji’s final words

Here is what Bachan 3 says in the full context:

3. Then Sadhu Bhara Singh and Satsangis be­gan making offerings and performing obeisance. There­ upon Lala Jagannath Khatri, a neighbor, sajd: “Let the Dhyan (attention) of Maharaj be fixed inwards; this is not the time for such offerings.” Then Swami Ji
Maharaj turned to him and sajd : “To be able to send the surat up whenever you like (at will) and to bring it down whenever you like, this is called Dhyan . As for me, I had already taken myself up last night and put the surat into the lap of SAT PURUSH, but have come down to say a few things to you people.”

Bhara and other Satsangis have approached Swami Ji with gift offerings and outward public praises, to get His attention, His Dyan. A neighbor corrects them, telling them to stop, because His Attention, His Dyan, should be focused within at this time.
Swami Ji adds to this by stating that the real Dyan is going within, taking the soul up, to see one’s Master in His pure true form, inside. That’s real Dyan, within. Then He says He Himself has just done that, and been with His own beloved, Sat Purush.
Rather than heap offerings and public prayers upon the Master outwardly, one should raise one’s soul to be with Him within…that’s the real Dyan. But understand, in the remarks of Khatri, it is clear that Dyan is the attention of the Master upon us…that we can see. True Dyan is the Master’s Attention from within.

Dear Spencer
I just read your post. It is ridiculous.
“As for powerful, each of us is all powerful over something. If you can raise your soul to the first region you are all powerful over that. Not over any other region, not even over any other human being. All powerful…to come and go as they like to that region.”
You have got to be kidding! You cannot be THAT delusional.
Where did you get all those qualifications to the statement “all powerful”?
Can you show where it says that in the Sar Bachan?
You have taken the words “All Powerful” and made them mean something completely different. If that is how you operate in life, it explains why you are so deluded. You create your own meanings.
You are not alone, many religious followers do this.
So if Gurinder says “I am not coming at death, because there is only ONE”
You start interpreting, qualifying, distorting, until the statement means something else. Then you convince yourself that Gurinder said the “something else” and that Osho Robbins is giving false teachings to the world.
Lots of RSSB followers do exactly what you are doing.
So they will say, for instance, “He means there is only ONE GOD” he just left the word GOD off the end of the sentence. (Why would he do that?)
“He is just saying that to motivate you, of course he is coming at death. Osho Robbins has a motivation to delude everyone because he is a wannabe guru and wants to take Gurinder’s sangat away.”
This is the kind of nonsense believers come out with, instead of honestly dealing with what is in front of them.
So Spencer, you are saying that swami Ji means “has the power to go to the first region” when he says “all powerful”
The obvious question is, “Why doesn’t he say what he means then?”
And “How do you know he means something other than what he said?”
You then write
“For some reason what Swami Ji wrote of extensively about the higher regions you ignore. You have simplified the Path to something it isn’t. The new teachings are yours alone.”
I could be mistaken, but I don’t think Osho Robbins is advocating any new teachings. As far as I could see, he posed some questions and gave the answers that he believes Sar Bachan gives.
I agree that in other places, Sar Bachan refers to higher regions. I am sure Osho Robbins is well aware of that. I am sure Osho Robbins is not saying the first region is the highest.
He is quoting Sar Bachan in which it says that one who reaches the first region is all powerful and is REGARDED as a Perfect Being or a Mahatma.
That is exactly what it says.
It doesn’t go on to say that he is NOT perfect. It also does not say that “All Powerful” means the ability to go to the first region. That is hardly a definition of all powerful.
Where do you get the distorted meanings from?
Did Swami Ji ordain you to qualify his statements and change their meaning? How exactly do you know that Swami Ji meant anything OTHER than what he wrote? Are you not distorting the meaning?
Then you go on……
“In the Astral region also are all hells. And a few of the more lurid paradises. It’s not a super place. Only relative to this one.
Imagine visiting the Playboy mansion. At some point it will make you nauseaus. Yes, it’s cleaner than here in a way, the gardens are great, but the diversions are just a finer form of corruption and actually repugnant.”
Have you been there?
How do you know all this?
Just what you have read in books?
How do you know there is even a place called hell?
You write as if you KNOW this when in fact it is just a belief.
All believers do this. They mistake their belief for a fact.
You go on……
“And as for power over the region they had obtained, again, you must understand what power really is.”
You have already distorted the meaning of the word “all powerful” to mean “just the ability to go to the first region” You know continue as if the distorted meaning of all powerful is his meaning not yours.
“All powerful” is not over that region. Just over one’s own capacity. They had the power to get there. They became all powerful in that respect. Anyone who understands their power certainly respects it. But they are not the Lords of that region. And praying to the Lords of that first region, who is Kal, actually, they ensure their continuing imprisonment.
WOW – so now the disciple who gets to region one has gone from being what Swami Ji calls all powerful to a prisoner (spencer’s interpretation)
Forget about “all powerful” and “perfect” – he is a prisoner.
What you are conveniently forgetting is that all disciples have to go to region one before they can go to region two or three.
Now more interpretations from Spencer……
As for free of personal karma…that’s the karma for that persona in that life. When you visit the Astra l region (I don’t recommend it unless you want to be tempted by addicitons from which you many never recover in this life), you are temporarily freed of Kria…your actions there have no impact on your store of karma. And you are temporarily freed of your Pralabdh karma…you are not under the influence of your persona there…you can see things calmly from a higher perspective. The moment you return here, you must resume all that. And all your sinchit karma remains intact. The only way to burn that is through Master and Shabd. Only He can do that.
My God, all these beliefs? And Spencer does not think they are beliefs, he actually thinks they are facts. He thinks he KNOWS all this.
How do you know any of this? That there is such a thing as karma, store karma, pralabdh karma, etc. You have just read this and now you think you know.
You do not recommend going there. but all disciples who meditate will be going there. isnt that the result of meditation?
In the meantime
One-initiated is doing some ritual dance. Not sure what he is celebrating.

What have I started – over 200 comments. Father – forgive me for I know not what I do!

Hi RS Sceptic:
You wrote:

You have got to be kidding! You cannot be THAT delusional.
Where did you get all those qualifications to the statement “all powerful”?

Sceptic, those qualifications come from Swami Ji Himself in all the paragraphs that precede his comment about the first region. Paragraphs I already posted above.
Swami Ji writes, in those passages:

At each stage it feels as if it con­trols and pervades through everything below.

That’s what He means. He already tells you what “all powerful” means at the first stage. The personal feeling of being all powerful. Not actually ALL powerful at all. Swami Ji spends paragraph after paragraph detailing the limitations of the lower stages. And the fact that these folks who feel all powerful, who think they have achieved the ultimate, have been deceived, and are not actually liberated at all.
That line about all powerful and appearing to be perfect comes at the end of a long exposition by Swami Ji about the much higher regions, and the delusion that brought those who reached the lower stages back to incarnation. He has taken pages to explain that those reaching the first region certainly did have limitations. They were not ALL powerful in an absolute sense, only in the sense of where they had reached, just the first region.
Because you completely ignore most of what Swami Ji wrote you are certainly in no condition to comment. When bigotry blinds someone to the facts, they have no basis for dialogue.
But in the spirit of helpfulness, here again is what Swami Ji wrote. Read it openly and carefully, or do you best at least. It benefits me not at all. But to the extent you can do this, you help yourself move from delusion to reality, at least in understanding what Swami Ji actually wrote.

5. Sddhs, Gydnfs, Bhagats, Incarnations, Prophets and other holy personages who did not reach the Real Home, all rank much below the Saints.’

As, in their up­ ward journey, they stopped at different planes, and they founded different religions corresponding to their several attainments. The stage reached by any one of them was regarded by him as the final region, and the presiding deity of that region was looked upon as the Supreme and Almighty God, and his worship as such was enjoined.

This was due to the fact that all the differ­ent regions were created by the Supreme Being as re­flections of the Real Region, so that the lower regions also share to some extent the features and conditions of the highest, but there is a lot of difference in regard to permanence and other conditions.

Each region has its own distinct creation, marked by different grades of subtleness and purity.
Only he who has seen all the regions can appreciate the difference. Otherwise, the form and effulgence of the Lord of the region reached by anyone was regarded as limitless and boundless, and that deity was considered Supreme. The ecstasy of the moment of realization caused the devotee to lose himself in an indescribable state of eagerness and bliss­ ful intoxication.

6. The Surat attains to a different state at every stage that it reaches.
At each stage it feels as if it con­trols and pervades through everything below.

For in­ stance, on reaching the first or lhe second stage, the Surat or Lord of that stage appears to create and govern all the world below, as if he were its manifestor and supporter. And since these instructors had no know­ ledge of any higher region, they taught their disciples to regard the Lord of that plane as the Supreme God. Only the Sant Sat Guru knows of the higher regions. Had these teachers been instructed by a Sant Sat Guru, those higher regjons would have been revealed to them. Then they would have been shown the way and helped on the onward Path.

Likewise, one who crossed the first, second or third stage in the course of his upward journey, was looked upon as perfect. The fact is that the devotee acquires all power when he reaches the first stage and on account of that attainment, he is regarded as a per­ fect being or Mahdtmd. There is no doubt that this first region is much superior to the regions of lower con­ sciousness, and one who reaches this stage is absolutely freed from all personal and worldly dross.

“Looked Upon as perfect” isn’t perfect. All powerful is only their own sense of being all powerful in the complete ignorance of the higher regions, and their own and inevitable return against their will to this prison house.

BTW Sceptic, not all disciples who meditate witness the first region. True Master’s protect them from a lot of that. Your moment of internal awakening, if you were initiated, would likely be the third stage.
Until then, the Masters generally do not let the disciple see or wander about those lower regions.
“Rasied up to the third heaven” St. Paul.
So if you are meditating in darkness, be thankful.

Spencer wrote
“BTW Sceptic, not all disciples who meditate witness the first region. True Master’s protect them from a lot of that. Your moment of internal awakening, if you were initiated, would likely be the third stage.”
So you know this exactly how?
heresay, books, or experience?
or more likely – you just made it up.
can you give me a reference from any RSSB book that makes that statement?
The disciple (according to sant mat) meets the radiant form of his master on the ASTRAL or first region.
How is he going to just jump straight to the third?
why not jump straight to the fifth?
When I used to follow Thakar Singh, one disciple said the heard bagpipes
when he plugged his ears.
Thakar Singh said “It means you are at Sach Khand”
The guy was overjoyed to hear this.
So I said, “But he has not even left the body and not even met the radiant form!” to Thakar
Thakar replied “Those are not necessary. A part of his soul goes to Sach Khand”
Thats when I realized he was talking crap.

Hi Osho:
You wrote:
“can you give me a reference from any RSSB book that makes that statement?”
I just gave a huge passage from Sar Bachan. If you like to discuss the texts, which is really the only transferrable thing we can discuss, let’s stick to that.
You wrote:
‘the real surprising answers are “Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan.” I have never heard that called dhyan.’
The actual intention of Swami Ji re what is Dhyan is the gaze upon our Master, our own attention. And the true Dhyan is when we see Him inside in His true form. True in the sense of eternal. This comes from the full context of this passage.
“3. Then Sadhu Bhara Singh and Satsangis be­gan making offerings and performing obeisance. There­ upon Lala Jagannath Khatri, a neighbor, sajd: “Let the Dhyan (attention) of Maharaj be fixed inwards; this is not the time for such offerings.” Then Swami Ji Maharaj turned to him and sajd : “To be able to send the surat up whenever you like (at will) and to bring it down whenever you like, this is called Dhyan . As for me, I had already taken myself up last night and put the surat into the lap of SAT PURUSH, but have come down to say a few things to you people.”
As you can see Bhara Singh and others started to make offerings and perform acts of obeisance to Swami Ji. A loyal disciple, Lala Jagannath Khatri intervened and asked them to stop distracting Swami Ji so that His attention, His Dhyan, could be focused within…on His own Master, at this time nearing His death.”
Swami Ji then actually reinforces what Khatri has said, saying that indeed, true Dhyan is bringing the soul up, and that is to see one’s own Master. Swami Ji reinforces this by stating He just did that and was in the presence of His own beloved, Sat Purush, the night before.
Dhyan is our attention. Contemplation on the form of the Master is considered “Dhyan” for Satsangis. But real Dhyan is when we see Him within, and that means taking our soul up to do so.
Pure Sant Mat.

For the same question of 10 different disciples, the Master may give 10 different answers best suited for each disciple based on the individual state of the disciple.
… No recordings, no notes has been a good strategy but unfortunately this is not working that well as it used to. 10 different answers for the same questions, Is not insulting the intelligence of the disciples?
It seems the present public and specially the younger generation is much more aware and intelligent and is not only unconvinced by the answers of these masters, but know perfectly that these masters are no more than normal mortals with a desire to govern and hold the family business/empire under their control.
Finally after decades they declare that they are mere teachers, and inspite of verbal declarations they would not make a change neither in the scriptures nor the teachings and to please the disciples they would travel all over the globe for Darshan and provide answers/solutions even to unanswerable questions.

For the same question of 10 different disciples, the Master may give 10 different answers best suited for each disciple based on the individual state of the disciple.
… No recordings, no notes has been a good strategy but unfortunately this is not working that well as it used to. 10 different answers for the same questions, Is not insulting the intelligence of the disciples?
It seems the present public and specially the younger generation is much more aware and intelligent and is not only unconvinced by the answers of these masters, but know perfectly that these masters are no more than normal mortals with a desire to govern and hold the family business/empire under their control.
Finally after decades they declare that they are mere teachers, and inspite of verbal declarations they would not make a change neither in the scriptures nor the teachings and to please the disciples they would travel all over the globe for Darshan and provide answers/solutions even to unanswerable questions.

You wrote:

can you give me a reference from any RSSB book that makes that statement?

I just gave a whole page of Sar Bachan copied and pasted with commentary, but rather than acknowledge what Swami Ji wrote, you have chosen to ignore that and attack something else?
The sacred texts are really the only thing that is transferrable in this conversation, so, yes, let’s stick to that.
You wrote:

“the real surprising answers are”Being able to send the surat up at will and to bring it down again at will, this is called Dhyan.”‘

Not at all. We must take the soul up to see our true Master within.

3. Then Sadhu Bhara Singh and Satsangis began making offerings and performing obeisance. There­ upon Lala Jagannath Khatri, a neighbor, sajd: “Let the Dhyan (attention) of Maharaj be fixed inwards; this is not the time for such offerings.” Then Swami Ji Maharaj turned to him and sajd : “To be able to send the surat up whenever you like (at will) and to bring it down whenever you like, this is called Dhyan . As for me, I had already taken myself up last night and put the surat into the lap of SAT PURUSH, but have come down to say a few things to you people.”

Bhara Singh and other Satsangis are making offerings and obeisance to Swami Ji. Another neighbor enjoins them not to disturb him because, at this time near death, His Dhyan, his attention, should be focused within. That means taking His soul within to see His own Master. And Swami Ji confirms that He did just that last night.
Charan Singh said much the same in Light on Sant Mat, question …”You have to look within to find the real Master. That is why Christ says ‘lift up thine eyes to the Son of Man'”
That’s true Dhyan.
Same teaching. Pure Sant Mat.
It’s just a matter of reading carefully, Osho.

Hi Osho:
You wrote:

The disciple (according to sant mat) meets the radiant form of his master on the ASTRAL or first region.
How is he going to just jump straight to the third?

No, you misunderstand. You can see the Master at the first stage, but that is all you will see there, normally. He isn’t there to take us on a tour of the gardens. He’s actually there to guide us away from all that, focusing on Him. What else would we want to see anyway?
Our work is under His protection, really He’s the one doing the work, including the Simran and Bhajan, as well as the Dhyan. He’s looking at us all the time.
He can take us right to the top at any time. Haven’t you understood anything?
But this a partnership. A love affair. For that we stay inside. We move with and around the flow of our Karma. That’s how I know about the third stage. Ask anyone with any years at meditation. They know when they have left their body and personality behind. During those times they incur no Karma, nor are they under the influence of their Karma, because they aren’t in the body. It is a wonderful experience. But we must return. And then not only the body, but our tendancies and conditioning all returns. There is no escape from that until the third region.
We don’t want anyone or anything else besides Him. So, the first and second regions are held from us because, even though we aren’t incurring karma there, we aren’t burning any of the sinchit. It’s actually a waste of time. And we can be so enthralled with the absolute beauty and perfection there that we are drawn to create currents of karma that will add to our Sinchit. So instead we are kept most of the time by our Master in a beautiful darkness except….our Beloved’s radiant form, except that it is actually flooded with light, the light and music of the Shabd! And that comes from a place much higher than those regions.
That is the experience, generally, of the disciple as they work and journey to take their attention up.
You can call that delusional if you like. It’s all just outside your experience, Osho.
And expanding your own experience and knowledge, that is the natural path for all human beings.
No need to comment on anyone else. Just focus on your own next step.
“Shouting at the darkness” never solved a problem. And neither does accusing those with a different experience than yours. Their experience doesn’t matter to you. But that doesn’t make it unimportant. If your experience is important to you, learn to respect theirs.

Spencer,
please re-read what I was referring to when I said, give me a reference?
it wasn’t to do with the Dhyan question.
here is what I wrote

Spencer wrote
“BTW Sceptic, not all disciples who meditate witness the first region. True Master’s protect them from a lot of that. Your moment of internal awakening, if you were initiated, would likely be the third stage.”
Osho Robbins:
So you know this exactly how?
heresay, books, or experience?
or more likely – you just made it up.
can you give me a reference from any RSSB book that makes that statement?

you have not given any reference

spencer wrote
He can take us right to the top at any time. Haven’t you understood anything?
Really?
Then why doesnt he?
Clearly because he can’t
If he could, why would he not?
This is all dogma and false beliefs.
What is YOUR experience?
Nothing.
Just sitting in darkness meditation
holding onto lots of dogma and beliefs
because that is all you have.
If you have anything more than just teachings,
please say so.
otherwise, it’s clear you have nothing

Osho
You wrote:

What is YOUR experience?
Nothing.
Just sitting in darkness meditation
holding onto lots of dogma and beliefs
because that is all you have.

Could this be your experience?
I can’t comment on that.
As for the regions, when you get to the third, Master lets you visit the first two…you are mostly, not entirely, beyond the effect of impressions at that point. And then you are very thankful that no time was wasted on them.
My experiences can’t be verified. But you can respect them as mine, delusional or otherwise.
Because if you can’t, then you won’t be able to respect anyone whose experience is different than what you think it should be or is supposed to be, for your convenience.
That’s what makes bigotry. The inability to acknowledge “Hey, I don’t get it but I respect it works for you.”
But let’s do a thought experiment, Osho. Something I think will help this dialogue.
In ten or fewer sentances, please paraphrase what I wrote…what you believe I meant. Then I can see if you even understand what I have written. You can disagree, but at least I’d like to know if you are disagreeing with what I wrote, and not some strange notion in your head that I did not intend.
So, paraphrase me for at least a paragraph.
Then comment on it.
If it turns out you are captured my sentiments, then I will honor your criticism.

At each stage it feels as if it con­trols and pervades through everything below.
So if that is the case, how do you know there are not many more regions beyond Sach Khand? and beyond Anami?
There might be ten more regions.
I could say I have gone to further regions and swami ji has not gone as far as me, hence he preached that anami was the highest.
in fact it only appears that way to him.
there are many regions beyond.
you can’t argue with that.
here’s the other issue
sant mat says that other religions only went to lower regions than sach khand
like say islam and christianity, buddhism, hinduism.
but obviously now sikhism
however, those religions don’t talk about meditating on shabd and taking the soul up to regions and describing those regions like RSSB does.
their teachings are unrelated to that.
Islam says accept Mohammed as the last prophet
christianity is based on the belief that jesus died for your sins.
they don’t talk about regions

Spencer quoted and wrote this:
3. Then Sadhu Bhara Singh and Satsangis began making offerings and performing obeisance. There­ upon Lala Jagannath Khatri, a neighbor, sajd: “Let the Dhyan (attention) of Maharaj be fixed inwards; this is not the time for such offerings.” Then Swami Ji Maharaj turned to him and sajd : “To be able to send the surat up whenever you like (at will) and to bring it down whenever you like, this is called Dhyan . As for me, I had already taken myself up last night and put the surat into the lap of SAT PURUSH, but have come down to say a few things to you people.”
So does that mean that sending the soul up is called Dhyan?
Dhyan is focussing on and visualizing the form of the master.
How is that the same as sending the soul up?
those are two different things and can’t have the same name
that’s like me saying “this is a cup of tea”
and then to a cup of coffee I say “this is a cup of tea”
then to validate it, Spencer points out – they are both cups – so its the same
send the soul up – is not called Dhyan – in any context.
I have never heard it used in that way.
If you have, please share.

spencer:
So, paraphrase me for at least a paragraph.
which part of what you have written do you want me to paraphrase?
you wrote:
(Osho):
What is YOUR experience?
Nothing.
Just sitting in darkness meditation
holding onto lots of dogma and beliefs
because that is all you have.
(Spencer):
Could this be your experience?
I can’t comment on that.
How can that be my experience, when I don’t meditate anymore
and when and if I do, I see light
I just dont make any meaning of that light
You go on to describe how the master takes you on a tour of the lower regions once you get to the third region.
great. even tours are given. Free or charged for?
Have YOU taken any tours?
I am asking you, plain and simple if you BELIEVE or if you have gone on the tours.
It’s not that hard to answer.
All you have to say is “Yes, I have been on the tour bus many times”
or
“No – it has not happened to me yet – as I have not yet left the body”
Why can’t you be honest enough to answer a simple question?
My view is your answer is the latter
and so is that the case for most followers.
however, if you shroud it in mystery
then everyone can carry on believing that other are getting there

Hi Sceptic:
You wrote
“christianity is based on the belief that jesus died for your sins.
they don’t talk about regions”
Au contraire:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
2 Cornthians 12:2
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
2 Corinthians 5:8-9

Dear Osho:
You write:
“All you have to say is “Yes, I have been on the tour bus many times”‘
Yes, the entire journey, to Anami and back.
Is that a surprise? Could there be a real path and no one went the whole way? No one but the Master could speak of it?
No. But it is meaningless to anyone else.
The price? My right to accuse anyone of anything.
I’m lower than you, Osho, because while you have succeeded in judging others, and gaining the support of others in doing so, I stand in a very much smaller group discouraging such finger pointing.
The only reason for the Master to speak of it is because they are a guide.
But there is no reason for anyone to deny it.
I don’t deny it.
A good student honors their Master. And a poor student, even more so. For they did not earn what they were given.
But even a poor student honors what they were given.
But for anyone else, it’s just delusion. What can it be? It’s outside your experience.
And your experience for whatever reason, your conditioning, demands that you denigrate the experiences of others.
There is no need for it, and no benefit to it.
But silence doesn’t work either. You won’t be able to silence all the people who have had inner experiences. There isn’t enough vitriol in you for the entire Sangat, most of whom have had some level of experience, and many, many, far more versed than I.
You have no idea how much experience is going on that is entirely legitimate in the Sangat.
How many of those Sevadars are with their Master all the time? They are in a better place than this forum. They are enjoying love, without having to hate or judge anyone else. Every minute they spend in that place is a moment of freedom from Karma, the weight of their own past.
So, I suggest that you can lighten your burden, you, and Sceptic and Brian…All three faces of Eve, can greatly lighten your burden simply by focusing on what is close enough to you to hold faith in. Close enough but better than you, so that you aspire to grow beyond yourself.
Have something you love more than yourself. It’s a very humbling, painful and ecstatic experience.
And you don’t waste time pointing fingers.

Hi Osho
You wrote:
Dhyan is focussing on and visualizing the form of the master.
How is that the same as sending the soul up?
The two are the same. To truly see the Master you must bring your soul up.
Semantics…..

–
–
Hi Satsangis
–
Lots of ink for something
you only have to like
Master/Shabd/words
all of them the same
777
–
One of these three ( U can chose
–
The most simpel path on the planet
no rituels, money publicity
Just Like it
very much !

–
–
Imagining such a discussion
before getting layed
–
777
_
PS
Can somebody repeat this phrase in Font 56 pls

777,
You say: “imagining such a discussion before getting layed”.
I used to think you were quite enlightened with all your spiritual ramblings about your inner experiences. Also, now its quite an awakening for me that even Gurinder still seems to be stuck in the realm of indulgence.
Found these quotes:
“Great saints advocate the sublimation of sex by attaching the mind to the divine music and fascinating light of the Word or holy spirit, which give such great pleasures that they make sex indulgence seem insipid.”
…
Guru Nanak says: “He who is a slave to sensuality is false to himself and suffers such agony”.
…
“The only way to have sex and not suffer, is to have no desire to have sex. It sounds like a ‘Zen Koan’ doesn’t it? To end our suffering we need to end our desire, our craving, our thirst.


The problem with sex according to Buddhism… Is not the activity of sex, but the desire for sex. The sexual desire of a human being will never be ultimately satisfied through sexual activity.”
Good luck with your inner journey if you are still stuck in the realm of sensory pleasure…

.

Only a slightly bigger was possible.
777 writes:

–
–
Hi Satsangis
–
Lots of ink for something
you only have to like

Master/Shabd/words
all of them the same

–
777

One of these three ( U can chose
-
The most simpel path on the planet
no rituels, money publicity
Just Like it
very much !

–
–

Imagining such a discussion
before getting layed

–
777
_

Jen:
The most erotic being in creation is Sat Purush.
But for that kind of intimacy, the human body is entirely inadequate.
As a lover carefully exercises their body, always attending to make sure it is attractive, so the initiate, in love with their Master, carefully attends to their thoughts, always focused above.
But in Mystic love there is no hiding behind make up, no artifices of surgery or clothing. Clothing optional at one stage, and No Clothing Allowed at another!
Worldly lovers, realizing the greater power behind sex, and the intimate consciousness that caresses all lovers, turn to LOVE itself.
Some of the best Satsangis were incredible players. They were shown something behind all of it. The thing they were going from lover to lover to find in perfection, they saw that in the eyes of their Master.
Nothing wrong with Sex. But go the whole way, consumate the relationship between you and LOVE Himself / Herself…take sex to a stellar level, by honoring the One who gives you that pleasure all the time, and who longs to give you even a greater pleasure.
And so, prepare yourself for that level of shattering eroticism, of transcendant intimacy.
It starts with that spark of charisma in the smile you find within your own heart. He is there.

Juan,
All the answers from all the Masters carries just one eternal answer: Love.
And the process to catch and finally become the Love is meditation.
No language and no words and no Master can explain it enough.
It is something to experience than to understand.
Love to you.

Jen
Just in case you didn’t understand 777.
‘getting laid’ in his case is spiritual… His meditation.. His Master is about to join with Him and take Him up.
Just in case you missed 777’s poetry.

Thanks Spencer,
I probably did misinterpret 777’s so called poetry. Anyway its no big deal really. The whole being in love with the Master meme – I’m totally over it. And thats okay too. To each their own.
Much love to all of ya, I’ve enjoyed reading the discussions on this thread and thank you Brian for giving us this space to vent our feelings and opinions.

the two commandments of god
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8
another really funny one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

Wow Spencer So nice covering me
You were so right
But in this case I wrote it in a rough mundane way
meaning
One can meet the partner tonight
but . . . NO
First spend 3 months studying ancient books, recipes, , visiting shrinks
ask prostitutes, . . . what kind of roundup to use for making roses
studying the deals of uber and normal taxis
My point was
Don’t argue , don’t hesitate, go in a hurry, . . when the Ocean has become your Lover
and the Kings Falcon with no reason has landed on your shoulder
Gooeees, . . all this wading through the swamps
not seeing that Gurinder is innocent
so I took a stronger phrase/word which is OMG “forbidden”
And you are so nice an Angel to have said what you said for this loser !!!
These RDVous in Sant Mat WHERE THINKING 100% STOPS happen
WITH NO REASON coming and gong
not indicating any value than irregular flashes of Love
One advantage : You beg for more
You see that’s in the Simran , believe it or not n . . it helps so much
and Yes Juan : Meditation with a straight backbone and triple simran
777

Another delicate 18+ observation
Lover try as good as possible to penetrate each other
even with there eyes
But cannot succeedtotally : you cannot eat your partnere and when eyes meet at closest
you don’t see
The spiritual Love Making CAN …
You CAN EAT Your Holy Partner ! !( Jim )
and be eaten
by the Shabd
These ancient Poets – Rummi – Shams – Bullah – Hafiz – Nanak – Kabit
had a much tougher time with the hypocrites of their time
but THIS is what they wanted to declare all the time,
Shout it from the roofs

777 , an 80 year old Frenchman writes to Jim, offering a 75 year old inexperinced American Esoteric Spiritual Advice,……
“You CAN EAT Your Holy Partner ! !( Jim )”
Jim prefers to remain a Vegetarian,.
But excusses 777 knowing, that Frenchmen are widly known to Fight with their feet and K- – – – with their face.
😇😍💤💤💤💤

I asked:
Dhyan is focussing on and visualizing the form of the master.
How is that the same as sending the soul up?
Spencer says
The two are the same. To truly see the Master you must bring your soul up.
Semantics…..
That is weird and twisted logic.
statement 1
Driving a car is equivalent to getting out of bed in the morning.
I would say the above statement is incorrect. So would most people
except Spencer.
driving a car IS NOT the same as getting out of bed in the morning.
They are two different actions.
action 1 – get out of bed
action 2 – drive your car
I agree that you need to do action 1 (get out of bed in the morning)
before you can possibly do action 2 (drive the car)
BUT
that does not mean action 1 IS THE SAME AS action 2.
which is Spencer’s statement.
Spencer says
because you need to do action 1 first – it is the same as action 2.
He says that is why Swami Ji is saying that
To be able to send the surat up whenever you like and bring it down at will, is called Dhyan.
Well – I can guarantee that if you ask any RSSB follower what dhyan is – none of them will say it is taking the soul up!
All except Spencer, that is.
Dhyan according to sant mat is the act of contemplating on the OUTER form of the guru, to create love for the guru, and will eventually lead to manifestation of the inner form.
However, other practices are also needed: simran and listening to he Dhun.
The surat going up – has never been called dhyan.
This is a sign of being brain washed.
You can anything to the sangat – and they will nod their heads in agreement
because if the guru said it – it must be true.
They cannot exercise critical thinking.
so you can make them believe anything – they make it fit.
Hence nobody is offended by Gurinder – after all he is the guru and there must be a higher purpose to everything he does.
So when Jim went to visit Dera, the only comparison he had was from many years ago when Charan SIngh was around.
He exercised the critical facility and thought it was not in good taste.
The disciple who is in love with the current master, cannot possibly do that. His whole spiritual future is at stake.
If he loses faith in the guru, where will he go now? Especially if he has spent his whole life in sant mat.
He HAS to believe.
He convinces himself there is a higher purpose.

and if ye seek, ye shall surely find. Ye just need to seek hard enough.
– The New Gospel by made up by Osho Robbins

so then you can easily realize there IS a higher purpose.
The purpose is to get you to surrender to the guru.
And true surrender can only happen where there is something you DON’T agree with.
If you agree with it – that is not surrender – you already agree.
It has to be controversial and stretch your limits.
There is a story of Swami ji:
He publicly spat into prashad before distributing it to the sangat.
The faithless ran a mile
the faithful said “WOW he has given it extra blessing”

Spencer, this is the actual paragraph is Swami Ji in Sar Bachan:
Are you saying it is a LIE and untrue?
Notice what he actually writes:

The fact is that the devotee acquires all power when he reaches the first stage and on account of that attainment, he is regarded as a per­fect being or Mahdtmd. There is no doubt that this first region is much superior to the regions of lower con­ sciousness, and one who reaches this stage is absolutely freed from all personal and worldly dross.

is says clearly that he acquires all power – not APPEARS TO.
then is says that
ON ACCOUNT OF THAT – he is regarded as perfect (on account of the fact that he is all powerful). This is exactly what Swami has written – if you do not add your interpretation to it.
One who reaches there is ABSOLUTELY FREED from all DROSS (personal and worldly)
I am not denying that the teachings say there are other regions.
However, this statement is clear – ALL POWERFUL (no qualifications are added to the sentence)
REGARDED AS A PERFECT BEING (called a Mahatma)
Swami ji does not add “But is not really powerful and is deluded”
That is Spencer’s addendum.
All is took was for Swami Ji to write – “And he is deluded” in that sentence.
He also never once said that “By the way, guys, ALL POWERFUL has a special meaning in this context – it means the ability to go to region 1 – not really all powerful as you understand it.”
Again that is Spencer’s special knowledge since he goes daily on the Anami train or bus
And he accuses me of creating new teachings.
Why would I do that? I am simply commenting on Sar Bachan and highlighting some point that seem strange. I really don’t care what the truth is about the teaching and I dont follow them anyway.

Rai Salg Ram in some of hs teachings, regarding Meditation and while doing Simran, taught that the Heart was an important Chakra to do Dhyan and Contemplation as well as the the Third Eye, and moving the focus up and down, kind of like practicing doing Kriyas would help the seeker .
I know the HEART Chakra is where the emotions of LOVE occurrs, and not at the Third Eye.
“Hardness of the Heart”occurrs at the Third Eye where Sant Mat Devotees are taught to remain focssed on, so is obviously why the material world is witnessed as a cess pool of illusion and evil.
I can assure ANY Westerner, that after traveling in India for two weeks minimum, will absolutely change one’s complete outlook in life, and alter one’s values!
India is said to ne the Cradle of Spirituality, yet, witnessing how mesmerized Devotees of Hinduism, Sikhism, Tibetan Budhism, Islam, Radhasoamis as well as other Sects are that worship their perceived Deities will short circuit the neurons in any normal Western brain!

Sept. 28, 2006 post by the late Michael Martin, from the old Light From Sound Oasis Yahoo group, now defunct since his death.
But the Critics were challenging Martin for just about every thing and any thing he said.
I wonder what he would think about Gurinder’s present RSSB International expansion? ,
Here was what he said then:
“I just came out of meditation. Hazur Anami Purush was most gracious
and kind. He was explaining his latest decisions on the relationship
between Sant Mat and the world.
He says he is working on developing the “image,” of Sri Hazur Maharaj
Gurinder Singh Ji. He has the same intentions for using my “image,”
also.
I’m at the tail end of a long line of Masters. I have nothing but
the greatest respect and appreciation for what all the Masters have
contributed. Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji is the focal point for the
love and devotion of some two million satsangis, so naturally, his
image is a very important one. So, I can understand the will and
desire of Hazur Anami Purush to want to enhance the image of the Sat
Guru in the minds of all those satsangis and seekers.
Basically, Hazur Anami Purush was telling me that he is on top of the
situation, but he is doing best for all concerned, under the
circumstances. He has a timetable, and he is prioritizing things
according to his omniscience. I’m happy with his will, and thankful
for his grace and mercy. Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji is the Son of
God. He has done a mind-boggling seva, and that seva continues to
this day. Everything is going according to God’s plan. We can
acquiesce in God’s will.
Michael Martin

“””” Jim prefers to remain a Vegetarian,. “”””
EeeeRY , Creepy,
Dear Jim
After all your evangelical studies where I though, the Eucharistie is understood at least
to the end of
symbolic eating, unifying the beloved ( Jesus )
I’m disillusioned all those Saints I mentioned including your Own Charan
describing the Shabd and one’s Master with tears in their eyes
and that literal consuming happens
and here, . . you an old longtime preacher kidding about the Highest Phenomenon in
the entire Creation
777

Osho wrote:

Why would I do that? I am simply commenting on Sar Bachan and highlighting some point that seem strange. I really don’t care what the truth is about the teaching and I dont follow them anyway.

Isn’t that known as Hypocrisy ?

Initiations champ 4 times ôsho is just kidding us
Just skip him and win hours
777

777 writes,…..”After all your evangelical studies where I though, the Eucharistie is understood at least
to the end of
symbolic eating, unifying the beloved ( Jesus )”
Jim can’t even comply with Gurinder’s Butt 69 joke to a mixed audience of 2500 Westeners, and you, Osho, RS Skeptic and others seeing nothing offensive about it, yet after 777 continues with the joking around, suddenly, 777 turns santimnious and makes Jim the Jokster.
The Christian Eucharist IS symbolic of the Body of Christ, and I can assure you, I distributed it to my congregation more times than the entire group here combined, that even know the meaning of what the Eucharist signifies.
But I can assure you, that Symbol was NOT the symbology Gurinder Singh was thinking about when he asked the Questioner if he liked Butts or knew what a 69 was.
Is the Jury still out, on Gurinder’s Six Neifs, …..or has Jim now been thrown under the Bus by both the Exers as well as the Inners?

Jim
Did it never occur to one priest after the Justitianus period that the ceremony
is a hidden ( for safety ) ritual
to celebrate with Goose Bumps
the unification of the didciple and the Master
by eating
the Shabad
by merging love in Love
by hich-hiking with the great Sound Stream
By losing one’s self in another Being optima forma
By not argumenting anymore
By accepting all words
By ending our “greatness”
by even forgetting what people once admired in us
By Dancing like a bear
777