Gurinder Singh’s billionaire nephew rumored to succeed him as RSSB guru

Nobody can be sure about the installing for the next Guru right?
Baba Gurinder is still there, so why would one think about that?
Maybe he is going to help Babaji..
They are only a” pointing finger” anyway.
Because one has to ”work”or not 🙂 for ones own self.

Nobody can be sure about the installing of a new guru.
Maybe he is going to help Babaji..
Everything is possible..but Baba Gurinder is still here.
So why do people think this already?

“A rich legacy has been squandered.”
That last line applies to “sant mat’s” siege on Indian spiritual traditions as well.
RS in its best form does little but to serve as a weaponized perennial philosophy that instead of freeing us from the negative and stale aspects of tradition, actually traditionalizes and codifies anti-social behavior and makes a ritual of anti-ritualism.
I.E, at many of the local satsangs I attended we were told NOT to pray for others because various reasons such as (insert book quote here). Imagine believing in a good God, but thinking that to ask it to have mercy on a loved one was somehow a bad thing.
That is the insanity of the dark RS cult.
Maybe they could change their mission statement to “caring about others is bad, because only the I matters. Give Money PLZ”

I posted links earlier providing some insight.
It has to do with the huge risk the brothers took to support the Clinton initiative as the major supplier of HIV medications at or below cost. Ther ran the business to extremes, and then had to cover the fines with a series of intercompany loans, drawing the attention and anger of investors.
The payoff? One million lives were saved.
The cost? Their careers.
I’m not sure that qualifies for sainthood.
But it does qualify for corporate heroism on an international scale.

“The payoff? One million lives were saved.” lol muh links
Stop cutting and pasting that line, genius.
We have no idea if even one life was saved let alone 1 million. This is one of those amazingly bad ways sycophants attempt to make their heroes look good. For all we know, there would have been 20 million lives “saved” had Clinton foundation not gotten involved. Being that only their supposed solution was implemented, it’s pretty hard to compare it to the competing solutions which they blocked.
Furthermore, the Clinton’s might be the most shady family in American history, and there is significant evidence of their involvement in corruption and murder at very high levels, contrary to what propaganda outlets like Snopes and all major “news” publications in USA have attempted to conceal with subterfuge.
That RS would be within 10 degrees of separation from the Clinton dynasty should be enough to raise major suspicion in any relatively sane person.

Jesse
You wrote
“For all we know, there would have been 20 million lives “saved” had Clinton foundation not gotten involved.Being that only their supposed solution was implemented, it’s pretty hard to compare it to the competing solutions which they blocked.”
Really, what were those other solutions?
Some facts would help here Jesse….
Please provide links to facts, not more conjecture….

Reviewing the annual reports and press commentary around Shivindar’s leadership of Fortis another picture emerges.
Normally, at least in America, a health system buys up hospitals that are distressed in order to make them profitable. They do this in two ways. They cut costs at the hospital or they shutter the hospital. Over one hundred hospitals and many more clinics have been closed over the last ten years in America in this way.
At Fortis Shivindar’s pattern was only to close one or two hospitals and instead to keep most all of the tiny ones losing money open through intercorporate loans without real collateral, either to the hospital or their vendors keeping them supplied.
Again, drawing ire from investors on behalf of patients.
As a hospital management consultant for 30 years I can’t help but admire what he did, knowing that can’t last forever. He basically torched his career to keep patient access to care in as many places as he could get away with.

No Spencer, RSSB’s #1 apologist on Hinessite, I won’t provide you with anything, especially when what I’m saying is common sense and not reliant on specifics. This is why you won’t address the hypocrisy that is repeatedly pointed out in the Godman’s behavior of money-chasing.
I don’t think you’re a mature person and I don’t appreciate the application of double standards that you seem to clutch like a little teddy bear when your cult’s shady dealings are held in front of you.
By the way, this isn’t difficult logic or reasoning I’m applying here. There are TONS of competing (for profit) initiatives to throw money and drugs at the 3rd world which involve backroom deals with nation states for exclusive rights in exchange for benefits to despots, of which there are no shortage in Africa. That you think this basic fact is “conjecture” only highlights your insincerity and lack of goodwill in discussions.
Having read a number of your comments, I’m guessing you are employed by RSSB. The banal consistency of your replies is textbook generic PR.
I hereby declare myself to be Jesse, the King of Conjecture. Be gone RS sycophants!

“He basically torched his career to keep patient access to care in as many places as he could get away with.”
Conjecture. You don’t know his motives or where the money went. You’re just assuming that his failed business decision was a saintly act.
There are many millions of dollars missing, most of which have raised suspicions due to the fact that they were sent through multiple accounts before ending up in Guru-cuz’s personal holdings.
But I guess it’s just Guru’s mauj.

Here’s another thing to contemplate concerning your cult leader, Spence-ophant.
This conglomerate known as the Dhillon Group is supposedly part of, Gurinder Dhillon’s, sphere of influence.
https://www.dhillongroup.com
Some of the highly spiritual products they offer are liquor and lottery as is shown on the front page of the website.
Now, this isn’t like the caste based requirement of Bhagat Sadhana who had to be a butcher. The Dhillon caste isn’t required to sell lottery tickets and liquor as far as I know.
So tell me, why is God selling lottery tickets and vodka, but telling everyone that both things will lead to being born as a worm?
Now, it may be that this Dhillon group is not affiliated with THOSE Dhillon’s, but it’s the top search result when I searched for another one of their public enterprises.

Jesse
The intercorporate loans that drew attention were to hospitals or small vendors with no collateral.
Shivindar and Malvinder rolled these into new loans when they came due.
Generally, corruption comes from large organizations, well healed organizations with deep pockets, like unseemly large donations to your corporation’s charity.
What we have here is the exact opposite, loans to small hospitals and small vendors who have no actual collateral to pay for the loan, and that would include organizations in distress.
Those aren’t people with big money to line your pockets. Those are tiny organizations trying to stay alive.
This is a picture of executives that could not bring themselves to shut down small rural operations struggling to stay open and continue providing patient access to care.
Not great business management. But heroic for those communities.
Do some homework please.
Take a look at the Fortis articles.
And then please share what you find.

A closer look at the connection to their own personal finances strengthens this picture.
They used their own personal Religare shares as collateral to keep these small goals and small vendor loans afloat.
They basically put up their own money as collateral to help distressed hospitals and clinics.
No money rolled the other way. None.
Or if you find that please, I would like to read about that.
In exact contradiction to your depiction, these guys are Healthcare heros.
Shivindar might not be meant for the business world. He might be meant for a place where you put your own reputation and livelihood at stake to help patients.

Spencer, you’re a cultist. There’s nothing else to say.
These guys could get caught naked in a room full of toddlers and you’d say they were being so gracious to teach the kids about anatomy.

Jesse, you’re correct about Spencer. He reminds me of people on the Titanic who refused to believe the ship was sinking, even though the evidence was all around them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_RMS_Titanic#Preparing_to_abandon_ship_(00:05–00:45)
Spencer’s eyes are closed to anything about RSSB that conflicts with his blind beliefs. He has eyes that could see the truth, but he doesn’t use them.
This is common cultish behavior. I saw it countless times during my 35 years in RSSB, including in myself. It takes courage to break the bounds of a religious organization that has many ways to keep people caged in the group’s belief structure.
Hopefully one day Spencer, along with others, will see the light. Until then, his comments will reflect his enclosure in a mental darkness as regards the truth about RSSB and Gurinder Singh..

Shivinder Mohan Singh/Net worth
1.02 billion USD
2018
Humanitarian hero.

Spencer, here’s an idea: comment on the livemint business story about the Singh brothers and their ties to RSSB. You like to distract and deflect, rather than face issues directly. If you believe that you know more about this subject than the reporters who wrote the story, give us a point by point critique of what they wrote.
Meaning, quote from their story, then show why it was wrong, documenting your assertions. This will be more productive than you doing the distract/deflect thing.
Note that I shared direct quotes from the story, then added my own documentation to support what I said in the blog post. It’d be great if you’d do the same.
If you believe that the Singh brothers are doing a great job running their health care enterprises, which goes against the livemint story, and other stories I’ve read about the problems the Singh brothers have gotten themselves into, tell us specifically why you are right, and the reporters are wrong.
Gosh, they just happen to live in India (I assume) and make a living reporting on Indian business news. Maybe Spencer Tepper knows more than they do, from your perch overseas. Hey, it’s possible. We just need to see the evidence of this.

Brian,
Even without going to RSSB Spencer is attempting to paint the ongoing fraud case as one of charity. But his view of charity is that the Singh Bhais are like RobinHood, stealing money from a publicly traded company and giving it to the poor without the approval of the shareholders whose money has allegedly been stolen.
What’s perplexing about this is that charitable people usually use their own funds, and the Robinhood stories generally aren’t about billionaires stealing assets from middle class shareholders in partially undisclosed sketchy investment ventures in foreign countries.
But somewhere in the convoluted Spence Defense there must be a lot of wisdom hiding. It’ll be revealed after death, assuming more simran bhajan.
Just you wait!
Jesse

@ Brian and Jesse. I agree with both of you about the billionaire brothers.
Something is definitely not right about them or their links.

Arjuna,
The thing is that were these guys just some corporate hustlers, nobody would care outside of the business world. I know I certainly don’t care about the activities of greedy people who don’t publish materials claiming to be God.
What makes it all so ugly is the whole “my uncle is God and he’s running sh*t so f**k the law, morals and other dumb things” aspect. It’s really unbecoming of Godbro and his divine sevadar nephews.
Jesse

@ Jesse I agree but who can bring them down and get rid of the lies?

The way more of these new Revelations keep being exposed, regarding GSD using RSSB as a huge Tax Exempt Religeous Carpet that all activities that normally would be taxed, are swept under the RSSB Carpet, that only GSD has the Key to unlock is like a Detective Novel.
Its looking more like David Lane WAS being led by Anami Purush when he was writing his Anti Gurinder RSSB Articles, and instead of pushing away Seekers to their Spiritual death, he was actually saving them from being sucked in to RSSB and spared from being shocked at witnessing all of these shady secrets being exposed many years later!
Those Seekers that Lane drove away from RSSB, do not have to agonise now, trying to decide whether to exit the Organization that certainly is looking more like a Cult as these Revelations are being exposed, or stay and become another Apologist defending RSSB and GSD.
Only question is, where does Lane stand NOW, other than being an Agent using RSSB inside information to sell his Books to curious RSSB Inners and Exers , wondering if they should lead, follow, or leave the Organization.
What Fools We Mortals Be,….as my Dad liked ro say.
Jim Sutherland

Only question is, where does Lane stand NOW, other than being an Agent using RSSB inside information to sell his Books to curious RSSB Inners and Exers , wondering if they should lead, follow, or leave the Organization
Only a fool would think this way, David Lane has not taken money from viewers to disclose Chandian effect. Videos are free of cost posted on neuralsurfer, text about Chandian effect is available free of cost on internet. David Lane could have kept it secret and started gurudom empire worth billions of dollars collected by donations but he disclosed everything free of cost. I don’t expect such honesty from any hindu, sikh or muslim; that is why they will always remain filthy, dirty third world nations also called developing countries.

Arjuna,
Nobody cares about this stuff other than ex-satsangis so I wouldn’t expect much along the lines of mass exposure.
You can see Tara’s comments about “village mentality” in India and compare RS to the Ram Rahim cult to get a better picture. I mean that guy was making expensive films about himself as a superhero and he didn’t even have businesses. It was all openly being done with his sangat money. All the while he was being accused of rape and a mob of his followers numbering in the thousands came to fight the police when they showed up to arrest him.
Radha Soami is very time in comparison. It’s just a few dollars and some family based promotion perks.
He said it in a harsh way, but Vinny’s comment extrapolates from what Tara said about “village mentality” and points to an uncomfortable thing to observe, which is that this sort of corruption is widespread and accepted in India and likely a cause of many of their problems that won’t go away in the foreseeable future.
I read news from the subcontinent which is why this RS stuff looks so small to me. Think of the fact that members of the Sikh religion went as far as to fake the need of political asylum to get VISAS to Austria so that they could assassinate an apostate religious leader, which was just one of many assassinations done in the name of religion by Sikhs around 2010. Or consider that there are brawls in Sikh temples literally on an almost daily basis in USA and Canada.
Hindu Gurus can get accused of rape and molestation by dozens of people from different continents, and instead of calling for an investigation, the highest levels of Indian government defame the accusers and call for them to be jailed, which sometimes happens.
If the happenings of the subcontinent got even half the international exposure that the Catholic Church gets, I think you’d see a lot less ‘OM’ and Ganesh tattoos amongst westerners.
In short, don’t expect change in our lifetimes. These things are so culturally ingrained that it’s not certain anything will or even can change.
Jesse

RS in its best form does little but to serve as a weaponized perennial philosophy that instead of freeing us from the negative and stale
aspects of tradition, actually traditionalizes and codifies anti-social behavior and makes a ritual of anti-ritualism.

You and your enablers appear to be weaponizing opinion and
innuendo as well. You’re attacking an RSSB master, his family,
and, most importantly, the RSSB teachings too.
I can’t comment on press reports but are you suggesting that
legal indictments will soon be issued? That Gurinder’s nephews
will be taking the Fifth? Or Babi Ji will soon step down to
vacation in the Bahamas and spend “more time with family”?
What “negative and stale aspects off tradition” do you refer
to? How does RSSB “make a ritual of anti-ritualism”? Can you
cite passages in RSSB literature that codify “anti-social
behavior”? Or is it only based on anecdotal accounts of “mean
sevadars”, “confusing, multi-versioned theology”, “heartless
lack of charity”, “rejection of traditional prayer”?
We’re all entitled to our opinions but I distrust agendas that
evidence such ferocity, imbalance, and mean spiritedness.
Ones that make ad hominen attacks on others in their fervor
to be right and hammer home “the obvious facts” to opposers,
Ones that scurrillously bandy around words like “cult” in their
summary judgments, then opine faux concern that one day
the poor delusional saps, who just don’t see, will “come to
their senses”.

-“What “negative and stale aspects off tradition” do you refer
to?”
The negative and stale tradition of foolish people arguing with me with their tender feelings.
-“How does RSSB “make a ritual of anti-ritualism”
By telling people on repeat that “we don’t have rituals, but all satsangs around the world must be at 9AM, you need to sit in the same spot every time you meditate, and 10,000 other things DO YOU EVEN READ THE BOOKS DUNGENESS?
-“Can you
cite passages in RSSB literature that codify “anti-social
behavior”?”
Here you go. One long quote telling people to give up familial tradition and begin funding some punjabi dude who calls himself God- https://www.rssb.org/publications.php

“Ones that scurrillously bandy around words like “cult” in their
summary judgments”
“We are a cult.” Charan Singh
Just quoting your Guru, Dungeness.

“You and your enablers appear to be weaponizing opinion and
innuendo as well. You’re attacking an RSSB master, his family,
and, most importantly, the RSSB teachings too.”
Sorry to write so many comments, but this is hilarious.
Weaponized opinions against a MASTER? I wanna see this dudes credentials. Give me proof of the mastership.
As far as attacking the teachings, I’ve yet to figure out what RSSB™ teachings even are. They have no proprietary methods as far as I’ve seen. Just standard yogic mantra stuff with ear thumbs, which may or may not be original. I personally doubt that ear thumbs are unique to #1 Yog Science Master Religare Fortis.

These third world cockroaches were living in dark until discovery of electricity by Christian Innovators was gifted to these creatures, free of cost. Even the royalty on invention of electricity generators will be billions of dollars which these third world cockroaches stole from the Christians free of cost.

@Vinny,….there must be a few fools other than me, to cor a momemt, imagine Lane selling his Books for money.
https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Dr-Johnsons-Death-Spiritual/dp/1565431391/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1531346263&sr=1-1&keywords=dr.david+lane+books
Jim

Really happy
i don’t have
to check this out
If I will be ‘alive’
I will let you know
if Shivinder
will emit
Sound and Light
plus Love
777
If Kirpal, Ishwar
and Darshan
went astray
anything can
happen

@Vinny,….there must be a few fools other than me, to cor a momemt, imagine Lane selling his Books for money.
David Lane has spent his life, his money and even risked his life while doing original research to bust propaganda machine of gurudom, he is entitled to sell his research even if it annoys piggybacks who are enjoying the repercussions of Chandian effect free of cost. If anyone has not done original research in his lifetime and was waiting for heavens to be gifted by guru, he is entitled to be frustrated by work of innovators like David Lane.

Vinny,
I am likely more sympathetic to your views than most people who come to this blog, but you’re oversimplifying your view on the situation immensely. Yes, there were technologies which weren’t native to India which Indians now use. This is standard all over the world. Things are invented by someone, others use the inventions later.
If one country, culture or race is wrong for using electricity they didn’t invent, then so is every other country and individual who didn’t invent it.
An Indian invented email, so am I wrong for receiving email notifications for comments i post on blogs? I don’t think so.
It wouldn’t be honest to say that they paid no price for these things either since the uninvited Brits starved a ton of Indians to death. Maybe millions of them. They probably would have been fine with never having seen “bijli” and living their lives as they had for millennia. Most technology is forced upon those who don’t want it and it ends up ruining their lives and culture anyway.
Curse those who caused the proliferation of laptops and cell phones.
Jesse

Hi Jesse,
Wow, you’re like a fireball, here to wake people up! Similar to tAo and Tara combined.
Warning to others: proceed with extreme caution LOL

Why does the one who is God even need money? Seems to me that there is an explicit contrdiction at work here.

Vinny writes,…..”David Lane has spent his life, his money and even risked his life while doing original research to bust propaganda machine of gurudom, he is entitled to sell his research even if it annoys piggybacks who are enjoying the repercussions of Chandian effect free of cost. If anyone has not done original research in his lifetime and was waiting for heavens to be gifted by guru, he is entitled to be frustrated by work of innovators like David Lane.”
Me: Vinny, you come accross as being some what of an opinionated Christian Bigit, and quite sarcastic. I’d go a few rounds with you in the Octegon, if I knew your real Name, but won’t waste any more time with a Pseudo Troll. Present your earned, or experienced Credentials, if you want to be taken seriously.
If you read all of Lane’s work, you might be surprised to see, most of what he has written and researched , has been puiggybacked off of others. He first likes to Parrot their writings, then pick them apart, line by line, trying to destroy them. Look at all of it closely, and then tell me I am a fool, and FOS.
You obviously have nit read the Books he has piggybacked off.
Lane has made himself the ultimate Authority, on Guru Bashing.
God never died and pointed Faquir Chand, as his Successor! ( Nor Lane)
Peace,
Jim Sutherland

Brian
You wrote
“Spencer, here’s an idea: comment on the livemint business story about the Singh brothers and their ties to RSSB.”
That article simply had two relevant pieces of factual information.
1.Ranbaxy ‘s owner for several decades was Charan Singh’ s son in law. And therefore they are all related by blood.
2.Gurindar has major personal investments in Religare.
What other actual facts can you cite about the relationship of RSSB?
The organization’s funds are not discussed at all.
No where in that article did it say, for example, that the Singh brothers were in charge of managing the RSSB trust.
The fact they are related by blood is no crime. They are relatives.
The fact that Girindar invested in Religare is no crime.
I get your conjecture, but just don’t see the facts you are claiming to be found in that article.
What you have failed to show are any facts in any article proving funds were illicitly moved from RSSB to cover personal losses or into anyone’s personal account.
You make that conjecture often but the live mint article doesn’t go anywhere near there.
In short, since you have made the accusation, the burden of proof is on you, and you have come up empty.
If you look into articles of about the Singh’s, Fortis and Ranbaxy you will find what I wrote above.
But you have failed to provide any factual support for your contention that RSSB funds are being diverted for personal interest.
When you do, please post here. I’ll read it.

Spence-Defense,
Go read all the other articles here and on the net (hint: use google) about the Fortis Ranbaxy etc connection and tell us why a human God is on the board of directors, getting grandfathered into essentially free shares in companies, holding shares in his wife’s name, telling the entire world that he’s a simple farmer (which Charan dishonestly did too), and forcing dietary requirements on employees and other board members.
Also tell us why God sells liquor and lottery tickets and chases after money while saying he doesn’t chase after money and that liquor and lottery tickets are evil.
It’s the hypocrisy which is the crux of the matter, Spence, not solely the possibility that Thee Manlord isn’t directly involved in the allegations of fraud that Fortis is being investigated over. Even if they and he are innocent, what is he even doing?
I mean, personally, I want to know why God, who is a already at least a deca millionaire in USD, even allowed Himself to get so close to a case of corporate fraud. If I were God, I’d stay away from cases of corporate fraud that get me tied up in federal investigations. But that’s just me, the non-God.
And also, were I God, I’d probably refrain from inviting my nephew who is intimately involved in the alleged fraud, to come stay at my cult palace to take a break from the pressure of being investigated for “siphoning off Rs 500 Crore” from a company I or my wife held a major stake in.
But again, I’m not God. Maybe God’s just wild like that. The Lord be ” ’bout that drama. ”
Jesse

Hi Jesse
Brian often says that those who make claims of truth hold the burden of verifiable proof to defend their claims.
A similar statement is also appropriate. Those who claim wrong doing by any human being hold the burden of proof to defend their claims.
Having wealth, growing wealth is not itself proof of greed. It can just as easily be a reflection of hard work and intelligence.
But to know the difference you need verifiable proof.
I’m sure you or Brian would not wish to be falsely accused of wrong doing.
So this is a golden rule thing.
I did read several articles about Ranbaxy and Fortis and it appears the Singh brothers used their personal shares of Religare stock to keep small hospitals and their suppliers who were losing money afloat as long as possible.
That’s my interpretation of the facts presented, and I’ve reviewed that in my earlier comments.
But if you wish to stick to your accusation of wrong doing I’m happy to look at the evidence. Truth Invites Inspection.

Spencer, it took me less than 30 seconds to find several Bloomberg stories about Fortis wrongdoing. You should acquaint yourself with this thing called “Google.” Have you heard of it? Here’s some links, along with some excerpts.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-09/indian-tycoons-are-said-to-have-taken-78-million-out-of-fortis
India’s tycoon Singh brothers took at least 5 billion rupees ($78 million) out of the publicly-traded hospital company they control without board approval about a year ago, people with knowledge of the matter said.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-28/billionaire-singh-brothers-accused-in-lawsuit-of-siphoning-money
India’s billionaire Singh brothers, already embroiled in one international legal battle over alleged fraud, are being accused of “diversion, siphoning and digression of assets” by a New York-based investor in a lawsuit filed in the High Court of Delhi.
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/south-asia/india-is-said-to-order-three-month-probe-into-fortis-religare
India has ordered its fraud office to inquire into reports of alleged siphoning of cash at Fortis Healthcare Ltd. and Religare Enterprises Ltd. by Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh, who are part of the founding family of both companies, according to people familiar with the matter.
And of course there’s the previous scandal involving Ranbaxy, which Malvinder Singh was part of. Check out this lengthy Fortune story, “Dirty Medicine.”
http://fortune.com/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine/
In January 2006, Malvinder Singh, the founder’s grandson, succeeded Brian Tempest as Ranbaxy’s managing director and CEO. At 33, with an MBA from Duke University, Singh was brash and competitive. The Indian business press dubbed him the Pharaoh of Pharma, and hailed him as an “out-of-the-box decision-maker.”
Others viewed Singh as petulant and immature. “I want profit!” he would yell in meetings, two former employees recall. Among the staff, he was known for being preoccupied with his ranking on the Forbes list of India’s 40 richest people. When he and his brother Shivinder fell from No. 9 in 2004 to No. 19 in 2005, despite $1.6 billion in assets, Singh seemed to blame the decline on a lack of employee loyalty, a former employee recalls.
His biggest problem was the FDA’s decision not to accept new applications from the Paonta Sahib plant. Ranbaxy desperately needed a green light there. So in November 2006, Singh led a delegation to FDA headquarters to try to reverse the decision.

” those who make claims of truth”
I didn’t make a truth claim, Spencer. I stated what I believe to be the most likely explanation as to why these men are being investigated by the government. You, Brian and myself all have the same evidence. Brian and I agree with the government that there is a possibility of fraud. Obviously we’re not saying we know. It’s just an occam’s razor thing basically.
Why is it hard for you to accept that I believe that these guys who are under investigation for serious fraud might have actually committed fraud with the help and/or knowledge of their family members who were involved in the business with them?
You’re the only one who completely dismisses the available evidence and thinks that these billionaire businessmen are too holy to fail.
As to your comment that “having wealth, growing wealth is not itself proof of greed” all I can say is that the RS books don’t really support that point of view for their Gurus who are expected to be content with what they have and 100% devoted to their inherited sangat.
Sorry, buddy. It’s just not satvik to ignore your chelas while you spend hundreds of hours in meetings after you’ve made enough money to retire for 20 lifetimes.

By telling people on repeat that “we don’t have rituals, but all satsangs around the world must b
e at 9AM, you need to sit in the same spot every time you meditate, and 10,000 other things DO YO
U EVEN READ THE BOOKS DUNGENESS?

Dear Jesse,
Books? That’s not found in any book that I know of. Perhaps in
newsletters. However, those are organizational guidelines, not
absolutist religious imperatives. Forget any zealotry you imagine.

Here you go. One long quote telling people to give up familial tradition and begin funding some p
unjabi dude who calls himself God- https://www.rssb.org/publications.php

Huh? That’s a top level link to various RSSB media. Cite the
“long quote”. Which “tradition”…”Punjabi”?. By the way, what
do you mean by “funding some Punjabi dude”? Surely, you don’t
refer to RSSB media which I understand is sold at cost.

“We are a cult.” Charan Singh

I’ve researched several books and found no such quote from
Charan Singh. Can you provide a citation? Is this anecdotal?
What was the context?
Cults rule by fear, they dogmatize, and they enforce outward
rigidity in thought and action. RSSB does none of these and
promotes an experiential path only. Cults are antithetical
to everything RSSB stands for. Ishwar Puri recently detailed
how RSSB differs from cults. And I can produce citations if
you’re really interested.

Weaponized opinions against a MASTER? I wanna see this dudes
credentials. Give me proof of the mastership.

That you’ll never find unless you go within. This is an
experential path as I mentioned. Not one for uninformed
debates or academic speculation.

As far as attacking the teachings, I’ve yet to figure out what RSSB™ teachings even are. They hav
e no proprietary methods as far as I’ve seen. Just standard yogic mantra stuff with ear thumbs, w
hich may or may not be original.

It’s more involved than “a mantra and ear thumbs”. You
might try one of the basic books. Borrow one for free.
If it smacks of a cult or its methods are a turn-off,
try another mystic path or one that promotes mindfullness.
Be assured though RSSB is no cult in spite of what the
disaffected say. I can only mention “Great Master” who
said words to the effect:
“This is what has worked for me. I hope it’ll work for you.
If it doesn’t, try another discipline and if it’s superior,
please come back and tell me. I’ll follow it too.”
Refreshingly un-cultish, eh?

“I can only mention “Great Master” who
said words to the effect:….”
You’re COMPLETELY misinterpreting that line from Sawan Singh. He wasn’t telling people to try another path lol.
He was saying “I’ve reached a higher heaven than all other religions. If you find something higher bring me there (but you can’t, cause I’m the best.)”

Jesse,
“He wasn’t telling people to try another path lol.”
Because people’s mind was not as corrupt.
By questioning and insulting Master Gurinder Singh Ji,
you are also insulting The Great Master – in case if it matters if you respect(ed) HIM.
The dirty circle you are trapped in currently,
whatever current Master will say, you will insult HIM on that,
because that has become your tendency.
You’ve spent countless precious breaths on insulting HIM
and you’ve mastered that art now.
Had you spent those in meditation and listening to Sound,
you would have been a different person altogether.
You, and the likes, neither have ability nor capacity,
to understand where these funds are going to be used.
Should you ever be able to perceive it,
you will want to cry till your last breath.
I hope you’ll get to know who actually the govt. is.
Try to be kind – not to anyone but to yourself
and avoid insulting the Param Sant Satgurus.

Bantering with these RS culters makes me sad for my former self because I remember the days when I made the same bad arguments and excuses for what and who I believed in.
RS books constantly belittle other religions as being incomplete, lost, or having leaders who “only made it to trikuti or some other pathetic lowly heaven” or some sh*t. It’s the most juvenile competition of all time, this comparing brahman to brahma to par brahm crap.
It could only be cool if they started naming their books stuff like “Buddha was a gay loser: How we pass his lame ass wannabe heaven and its flute sounds on day one. It’s Veena and lights all the way up BICHIZ!!”
Not only did I make a bunch of bad arguments, but I became arrogant and thought I was special, as did all the satsangis I have ever met because we were told, and believed, that we’d found THE way and were thus heading to Sach Khand where we’d pass Jesus on our way up above him(Read Path of the masters, Dungeness)
Religious people like to do that overtly arrogant thing where they tell you how humble they are, but satsangis take it to another level of conspicuousness.
Anyway, I’m so humble and just a slave of the master. Nothing I do is my own will, since as you can see if you give me adequate attention, I’m extremely humble and full of the kind of humility that one only gets by finding the one true faith that so happens to be deeper, more powerful, and truer than all other faiths of the lost souls who will be born as dogs as I ascend to the HIGHEST heaven.
Humbly singing out with superhuman humility,
Jesse

One initiated into a popular cult of Punjab India,
Sawan Singh, who likely had no knowledge on the topics he spoke on, insulted Jesus and said he was just a low level yogi. Do you think he’ll burn in hell for that or nah?
Serious question.
Jesse

I’ll just keep rambling I guess since this One Initiated dude’s comment annoyed me so badly.
One thing cultists seem to do is fixate on and adopt the language of their own lineages literature. You see people here saying “ummmm, param sant sat guru much???” as if that title itself holds any meaning outside of the cult.
Talk to Self Realization Fellowship followers and you’ll notice them saying “the eternal babaji” in reference to some sasquatch looking figure who a random guy poorly drew a picture of in the early 20th century. It’s weird. I once overheard a catlady in a new age shop talking about Baba ji and I asked “which one?” Her reply was “There is only one. And he’s immortal.” Ok lady.
Hare Krishnas constantly talk about “opulences” and “BONA FIDE spiritual masters” among other things. If you ever meet Jehovas Witnesses you’ll almost immediately hear them refer to people as “ones” as in “there are ones who don’t believe that param sant sat guru babaji contains all opulences and is the bona fide and eternal himalayan master.”

I’ll just keep rambling I guess since this One Initiated dude’s comment annoyed me so badly.
One thing cultists seem to do is fixate on and adopt the language of their own lineages literature. You see people here saying “ummmm, param sant sat guru much???” as if that title itself holds any meaning outside of the cult.
Talk to Self Realization Fellowship followers and you’ll notice them saying “the eternal babaji” in reference to some sasquatch looking figure who a random guy poorly drew a picture of in the early 20th century. It’s weird. I once overheard a catlady in a new age shop talking about Baba ji and I asked “which one?” Her reply was “There is only one. And he’s immortal.” Ok lady.
Hare Krishnas constantly talk about “opulences” and “BONA FIDE spiritual masters” among other things. If you ever meet Jehovas Witnesses you’ll almost immediately hear them refer to people as “ones” as in “there are ones who don’t believe that param sant sat guru babaji contains all opulences and is the bona fide and eternal himalayan master.”
(sorry if this comment posts twice. was getting slowness and glitchiness so i reposted.)

Jesse,
Not HE, but you, should you continue doing what you are.
Exception is if in the last breath you realise your mistake,
and bow to HIS feet.
A University Dean, telling a difference
between a lecturer and a professor is not an insult.
A preschooler telling that Dean doesn’t know preschool is.

“A University Dean, telling a difference
between a lecturer and a professor is not an insult.
A preschooler telling that Dean doesn’t know preschool is.”
Later RS books contradicted Sawan’s stance. (Ouch)
Seems the Dean and the rest of the staff have bumbled their way into academia and have been spiking their coffee with LSD.
Nobody knows what’s going on. Students are dropping out.

What you are calling contradictions
are actually adjustments to save the headache from debates.
Great Master used to tell openly about the deities,
and now the books doesn’t include that as well,
However, those who are in the grip of their minds,
can not understand the purpose.
Students who are engaged in prostitution,
when fails badly, turns the guns on the Masters.
drops out and insults the school and the Masters.
Students can drop out, HE will not.

“What you are calling contradictions
are actually adjustments to save the headache from debates.”
Nah. Not adjustments. They’re outright contradictions. Someone can’t adjust the statement that something is God, not God, maybe God, God again, and not God anymore.
Read that old talk between Charan and the Catholic scholars. It’s pretty obvious that the RS Gurus are hardly informed let alone educated about even the basics of the religions they give talks about. It’s why they hire everyone around them to do research and write books while they themselves shop for expensive watches and attend business meetings for profit.
What kind of wrist watches does God like best, One Initiated?

You’re COMPLETELY misinterpreting that line from Sawan Singh. He wasn’t telling people to try another path lol.
He was saying “I’ve reached a higher heaven than all other religions. If you find something higher bring me there (but you can’t, cause I’m the best.)”

Fair enough. We both have opinions. However Ishwar Puri who
recounts these remarks of Great Master then went to investigate
several other paths over a period of years. So this hardly the
behavior of a cult.

This may apply here:
THE DISAPPOINTING BUDDHA
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwj05rKvipncAhWEhFQKHd0JACwQFjAAegQIBhAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.integralworld.net%2Flane131.html&usg=AOvVaw3wYD1RzRw3u07D-mFzsk8n

One which stops the time shall they stop!

For All Guru-dom
this applies or it does not
Isn’t that simple ?
youtube
“Everywhere I go, . . . I see Your Face”
and
“Amazing Grace”
Simpler cannot be
777
-present abundance of TXT is above my pay-grade and my karma grade

We’re all probably familiar with the truisms Charan Singh started many of his — very enjoyable — talks with. In particular this:
“Saints may come at any time, in any country etc.”
So why is there never any question, or anticipation, of the successor coming from say… Mexico, or Denmark, or Zambia? Why is it always not just the same place in the same country, but the same family?
Huge red flag imo

So why is there never any question, or anticipation, of the successor coming from say… Mexico, or Denmark, or Zambia? Why is it always not just the same place in the same country, but the same family?

Not necessarily from the same family at all. An overwhelmingly
large majority of followers do live in India so it’s always likely the
selection will be local. However, there could be qualified
successors in any country. Not all would be able to emigrate
to India or have the requisite language skills to serve the large
Hindi/Punjabi plurality. The odds of it happening are long.
It’s been predicted that the RSSB center will shift to the U.S.
within a few generations though. So the focus is on location of
followers and serving them. The selection of a successor will
always be merit based.

Dungeness, the question of whether RSSB gurus truly are God in Human Form obviously should be answered with an almost-certain “No,” but for the sake of argument let’s assume the RSSB dogma.
So out of all the people in the world who might be god-realized in the Sant Mat sense of the term, we’re supposed to believe that Gurinder Singh’s nephew, a billionaire enmeshed in some sleazy business scandals, is the most qualified person on Planet Earth to succeed the current RSSB guru if he either steps down to enjoy his own grandiose wealth in worldly privacy, or upon Gurinder Singh’s death?
Meaning, it just so happens that out of seven billion or so humans, a relative close to Gurinder Singh is the most guru’y of them all? And taking a broader perspective, that of the five RSSB gurus so far, three have been related, and this makes sense spiritually-speaking? (Sawan Singh, Charan Singh, Gurinder Singh) If Shivinder Singh were to succeed Gurinder Singh, that would make four out of six gurus who were related.

Notmeer posted a link above (12 July 2018) to THE DISAPPOINTING BUDDHA by David Lane and Andrea Diem-Lane.
Like Jim, I wonder about David’s motive in visiting the Dera recently, was he just checking out the illusionary disappointing guru? lol
I agree with this excerpt from David’s essay:
“We live in a world of our own delusions, even as we attempt to escape them by creating even more fantastic ones in the process.”
……….
I think it takes courage to face our unknowingness.

“The selection of a successor will
always be merit based.”
Of course, nobody knows anything about any of these Gurus other than the fact that they are constantly accused of illegal land grabbing around northern India and are being investigated for fraud, so we’ll just have to take your word for it since you know them so well to assess their merit.
I definitely trust people who print books in which they refer to themselves as God. It’s a really humble thing and definitive proof that they’re spiritually qualified to ….. wait… what do they do other than give talks to massive crowds of people they don’t know or recognize?
This whole thing is an amazing scam. Get out while you can.
At least in traditional religions you have people you can go to. Pundits, priests, or whoever. This billion-disciple stuff makes no practical sense. Gurinder might have 10 girlfriends and a heroin addiction but you have no way of knowing. The guy is a famous rock star who couldn’t possibly know the millions of dupes who pay him. He performs the same “do your bhajan” bit over and over and you all stare at him because “self published book said Godman.”

Is there a way to filter out certain commenters?
A certain person (allegedly. i think it’s a schizo bot) writes repetitive and inane trash that is the textual equivalent to a picture of a hairy butt covered in glitter with an OM symbol superimposed over it.
Totally ruins the flow of everything.

Jesse, good point. I assume you’re referring to “777.” I delete his more inane comments, but none of them really make sense, as you pointed out. I’m going to be more diligent about deleting the “777” comments that don’t relate to the subject of a post, or at least make sense to a normal human being. Typepad does have a way of blocking someone, but I prefer not to do that unless absolutely necessary.

Brian I used to think you were an openminded un-judgmental type of person who allowed people’s differing opinions on this blog. Jesse seems to have taken over now and anyone who disagrees with you or Jesse has their comments deleted. I hope that everyone who does disagree with this Jesse character does not comment anymore. Its not worth it. Too much hate. Haters gotta hate.

Brian,
I was just joking, since it’s your blog and I’m not gonna ask you to get into censorship unless it’s already something you’d have deleted. Not all of my comments go through, and I don’t really know or care why. Your place, your rules and preferences.
But there is something kind of odd about the prosaic stream of consciousness responses to literally everything. I don’t know if I’m being trolled, talking to someone who legitimately needs mental health assistance, or if I’m talking to Hafiz reincarnated with a significant reduction of intellectual acumen.
All this made me think of one of the only good satsangs I remember in which the speaker said “maybe this is all BS, but so what? Meditation doesn’t hurt anyone.” Very heretical, but at least respectable in my opinion, which is more than I can say for many of the defenses I see here.
Jesse

Brian,
How were the comments off topic I couldn’t get that.
That is truly very unfair to delete the comments of a commenter,
upon requesting from another one.
Jesse, you’ve played cheap by taking Brian
in your confidence.
That’s not the way to do the debates.
That’s a clear cut partiality from the Judges.
I could never imagine Brian would agree to your oddity.
You could better chicken out from here and post elsewhere,
if you can not withstand the debate.
Eventually that hatred in your heart will start to show the repercussions,
And the longer you will you keep your heart filled with hatred,
the more intense it’s going to be.
It terribly pains when the bulldozer starts,
you appears but shouldn’t be desperate for that.

Jen,
I binge comment here for a few days once every 2 years or so. It can hardly be considered taking over anything.
And I’ve had comments deleted, too. Assumedly for being off topic, weird or for being unnecessarily insulting toward other commenters. It’s no biggie. My internet comment activity is admittedly contentious and irritating to a lot of people. I take pride in it, and expect ban hammers to rain down on my head every time I open my laptop.
I’ll be gone soon and you can read all the attempts at spiritual poetry that have nothing to do with corruption in RSSB, why RSSB members refuse to admit even the possibility of corruption, or anything else in the sphere of relevancy concerning the post we’re all commenting on.
It’ll all be ok.
Jesse

One Initiated,
Thank you for your expert psychoanalysis.
To be honest, I didn’t even know I was having a debate with 777 since most of his comments were less than 10 words and contained no grammar. Only you were able to unravel the mystery of my subconscious mind and my irrational hatred for god men and their impending fraud charges.
It all makes sense now.
Bhajan Hard, then Bhajan Harder until you reach the pinnacle.
I’ll see you there,
Jesse

Meaning, it just so happens that out of seven billion or so humans, a relative close to Gurinder Singh is the most guru’y of them all? And taking a broader perspective, that of the five RSSB gurus so far, three have been related, and this makes sense spiritually-speaking? (Sawan Singh, Charan Singh, Gurinder Singh) If Shivinder Singh were to succeed Gurinder Singh, that would make four out of six gurus who were related.

Brian,
All I know is what I’ve read in the RSSB books. I certainly think
the rumor of Gurinder’s successor is premature. Who is its source,
what is the strength of the evidence, any corroboraters? The same
litmus test applies to Shivinder. Bad optics, accusations, even
investigations don’t equate to indictments. Spence’s counterpoint
about those charges seems entirely credible to me.
I don’t think it’s necessarily untoward that gurus of the RSSB
lineage are related. It’s not unheard of in other lineages I
recall. But, at this point, I’m hardly in a position to comment.
Nor am I able to personally assess the “merit” of any potential
successor as Jesse seems to allege in a follow-up. But, those
who appear ready to convict without evidence, to leap head
first into the fray on the basis of innuedo, to elevate their
opinion to fact, to trumpet another’s guilt in a sophomoric,
shrill manner without a shred of doubt about its truth strike
me as unconscionable.

Jen, don’t be ridiculous. I rarely delete a comment. Whey they aren’t published, it is because Typepad put it in the junk comments section. I check for wrongly categorized junk comments regularly, usually once a day. I delete some of the “777” comments when they are meaningless. I’ve been doing this for quite a while.
Comments are supposed to relate to the blog post. I’m very generous about this, because I realize that some people are using my blog as a sort of message board. That’s fine. I just expect that a comment have some meaning to it, and isn’t just gibberish. “777” is notorious for those sorts of comments, and they are indeed a distraction to serious commenters, and visitors to my blog who correctly expect that the comments are about a blog post, not about something completely different.
Few blogs or web sites would be as accommodating as I am about off-topic comments. Believe me, I visit numerous newspaper web sites each day, and the comments there almost always pertain to the subject matter of a story.

It hurts to see what Radha Soami has become, it’s probably easier for people like Brian and others who don’t have RS families to move on and not feel affected. But this is the path i grew up following, what hurts the most is how the mass followers are being duped.
They spend their entire lifetime doing seva and meditation, but they’re not getting anything out of it, they think it pleases the Guru who’s too busy in his own business affairs.
Unfortunately it looks very likely that Shivinder will take over as he fits the criteria of being a Guru (family related, Sikh.turban etc).

>>G.S.
>it’s probably easier for people like Brian and others who don’t have RS families to move on and not feel affected
Maybe… unless they turned away from those families to follow this. I did that with friends from school, who would have been lifelong friends otherwise. I’m sure others have lost marriages over this.
>this is the path i grew up following
I understand, both situations are bad.

How does succession work, exactly, at RSSB?
Is it that the existing Master, within his lifetime, anoints his successor? Or what?
I remember Mike Williams talking of Wills in connection with past successions within RSSB. So I suppose that’s one way of going about it. (Although I doubt such provisions within a Will can be legally binding ; but of course, what is at question here is not legality per se as a conveying of the Master’s wishes.)
This rumor about the nephew succeeding GSD : is there anyone here with intimate knowledge of RSSB affairs, who may be able to comment on how true this might be? Has GSD spoken or written about this himself? If he has, then that’s that, I suppose. And if he hasn’t, then surely such rumor is unfounded?

All of this business controversy swirling around the big shots in the religio/cult known as Sant Mat or Radha Soami is indicative of ordinary individuals immersed in the futile flailings of physical existence and mundane affairs. Those who see this situation otherwise are wearing blinders of denial. Sorry, your leaders are fake. They are not saints. Why do they bother with this crap if they can soar to the radiant heavens at will in meditation and swoon in ecstacy in the lap of God? Just walk away and meditate, family Singh!! Who cares about Religare and Fortis And Ranbaxy. They’re just passing phantoms in Maya. Give them up. Walk away. They’re supposed to know that. Apparently not.
A far cry from the stories of Soami Ji, an early founder of the Beas cult, who meditated for 15 years in a back room with his hair tied to an overhead rod so that he wouldn’t fall asleep and who lived on a few stale chipatis dipped in water to make them palatable.

Jim,
Mr. Lane has spoken fondly of Gurinder’s more “modern” satsangs – emphasizing Chandian or Advaita like principles. I guess what Lane and others don’t recognize is that that is typical of religious cults and con men – appealing to those with money and influence by giving them what they want.

This is a copy of what Lane has written recently and apparently summarizes his Chandian viewpoint:
THE DISAPPOINTING BUDDHA
Understanding the Vicarious Nature of Spiritual Hero Worship
Learning the Deeper Lesson from Ken Wilber’s The Atman Project
DAVID LANE AND ANDREA DIEM-LANE
We live in a world of our own delusions, even as we attempt to escape them by creating even more fantastic ones in the process.
When I first read Ken Wilber’s The Atman Project back in 1980, I was deeply impressed with his thesis that we are “attempting to find Spirit in ways that prevent it and force substitute gratifications.” Of course, one could replace “Spirit” with any higher ideal that requires discipline or sacrifice, since the modus operandi is the same: instead of doing the hard work ourselves, we look for exterior symbols that can do the heavy lifting. Simply put, we are lazy and we would rather project our desire on to some person or object and let them do the necessary requirements than actually do the deep reflection within our own beings. The glitch in this process, however, is that it ultimately doesn’t work. The idealized Icon, when closely analyzed, fails to live up to our heightened expectations. Our chosen Buddhas, Christs, Babas, Gurus, end up forever disappointing us, since like the statues we have made of them in the past, they invariably have feet of clay.
The largest religion in the world, Christianity, exemplifies Wilber’s premise perfectly with its dogma of Vicarious Atonement, clearly defined by Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry as: “The teaching that the atonement which states that Christ’s death was ‘legal.’ It satisfied the legal justice of God. Jesus bore the penalty of sin when He died on the cross. His death was a substitution for the believers. In other words, He substituted Himself for them upon the cross. Jesus hanged in our place as He bore our sin in His body on the cross.” This doctrine has its historical legacy in 1 Peter, 24, wherein it is claimed “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.”
This is a compelling promise since it is not up to us “by works” to mitigate our sinful nature but up to the Son of God who has all the responsibility for our salvation. All we have to do is accept such a divine bounty and let the healing process begin. The caveat, though, is that one actually has to have faith that such a promise is real. Those of a skeptical bent tend to scoff at such theological claims, particularly if they are well versed in how many other religions offer heavenly rewards for holding the right set of beliefs.
This remind one anew of the old television game show, “Let’s Make a Deal”. Monty Hall, the original host, would tell a participant that there is a wonderful prize behind one of three doors. The problem is that two of the doors may have nothing of value. Which one do you pick? Religions are in some ways similar, except that there are thousands of more options: Is the liberation of your soul behind door number 1: Krishna? Or, door number 2: Buddha? Or door number 3: Jesus Christ? Or, in a surprise addition, door number 4: L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology? And the list goes on.
On the surface, it is a silly religious game we play since nobody knows if there really is a thing as “soul liberation”, much less a rightful choice that insures such. But as naïve human beings we play it seriously all the same. We are like our misguided statistician friend, Blaise Pascal, (1623-1662) who argues that we make a gambler’s choice. It is now commonly known as Pascal’s Wager which “offers a pragmatic reason for believing in God: even under the assumption that God’s existence is unlikely, the potential benefits of believing are so vast as to make betting on theism rational.”
But here Pascal not only begs the real question lurking behind that Monty Hall like curtain (why if there is a God or a Truth do we have to choose in the first place?), but displays how biased he is in favoring only one of the options as being viable, dismissing in the process the millions of gods in Hinduism, the various paths of Buddhism, the multiple schools of Paganism, and all of the newer religions which he seemed unfamiliar with at the time (Sikhism?).
We simply don’t like uncertainty and not knowing, so instead in our existential moments of dread, like our depressed friend Søren Kierkegaard, we take “leaps of faith” to somehow get us over the abyss we confront in our lives.
This is where I think Wilber’s Atman Project is instructive since instead of confronting (metaphor alert) the Sisyphusian task of rolling up the heavy stone up the hill ourselves, we imagine that someone or something has can do it for us.
A Jesus, a Buddha, a Guru, a Book, a Revelation . . . all become magical talismans for achieving what we are not. I may be a sinner, but Jesus is sinless. I may dull and petty, but my Buddha is enlightened. I may have made no inner progress, but surely my chosen Guru has achieved the very highest. I may be a prostitute but Mary is a Virgin. And the projective list goes on and on.
Religion is fueled by our self-perceived lack. And, thus the Wilberian Atman Project is our own way to achieve what we desire by elevating our Istha Devas and defending their relative statuses by our own imaginings
We live in a world of our own delusions, even as we attempt to escape them by creating even more fantastic ones in the process.
This becomes painfully obvious when we see just how truly fragile our belief systems really are.
As Father Costello, a Dominican priest at my old alma mater, Notre Dame High School, unequivally exclaimed to us in his Freshman religion class, “If Jesus Christ didn’t bodily resurrect, I would rip off my holy garments and party like a hedonist.”
Or, as the fundamentalist Protestant wails, “If somewhere in the Bible it says 2 + 2 equals 5, I would not doubt it.” Why? Because the Holy Book is errant and thus cannot be wrong, even when it is.
On the other side of the globe, the logic is the same even if the content and the geographical context are different. “My Baba has entered into the highest region of spiritual attainment. He is the greatest of all living gurus.” When asked how he knows this, the devotee confesses that it is manifest in Baba’s eyes.
Religious Icon projection is Freudian transference on meth and because we favor our substitutions for the real thing, we fight tooth and nail to defend our fantastic phantasms, lest they evaporate away like the Wicked Witch of East in the Wizard of Oz who melts whenever plain water is thrown on her.
Or, to invoke a 1960s song, Puff the Magic Dragon, whose lyrics though invoking images from the beautiful island of Kauai, explains poetically the childish nature of our believed in Deities:
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Little Jackie Paper loved that rascal Puff
And brought him strings and sealing wax and other fancy stuff, oh!
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Together they would travel on a boat with billowed sail
Jackie kept a lookout perched on Puff’s gigantic tail
Noble kings and princes would bow whene’er they came
Pirate ships would lower their flags when Puff roared out his name, oh!
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
A dragon lives forever but not so little boys
Painted wings and giant rings make way for other toys
One grey night it happened, Jackie Paper came no more
And Puff that mighty dragon, he ceased his fearless roar
His head was bent in sorrow, green scales fell like rain
Puff no longer went to play along the cherry lane
Without his life-long friend, Puff could not be brave
So Puff that mighty dragon sadly slipped into his cave, oh!
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
Puff, the magic dragon lived by the sea
And frolicked in the autumn mist
in a land called Honnah Lee
When we realize our Atman Projects, our own dragons of spirit descend into the very abyss that we ourselves so assiduously attempted to avoid.
As the song lyric so paintively concludes, “A dragon lives forever but not so little boys.”
When it comes to religion, do we ever really grow up? Or do we, as Wilber and others have suggested, continually manufacture surrogates so we can persist in our magical wish fulfillment?
It is here that I find Nietzsche instructive, not only because he spoke about the death of god, our idealized projection, but more importantly about what we would do with our lives once we realized that our prior beliefs were unsustainable.
Nietzsche’s Myth of Eternal Recurrence is a thought experiment worth considering over and over again (of course, the pun is intended), since it forces us to confront how we would act if everything we did had to be repeated for eternity without being able to change a single gesture.
If we knew we lived in such universe and were given this gem of knowledge, how would we respond for the next twenty, forty, or sixty years? Change everything knowing full well that it will be recycled for infinity? Or, change nothing at all, realizing that acceptance of the high, low, and in-between is the only key to contenment?
Nietzsche’s myth is a clarion call to resist the Sirens of Sirenum scopuli who with their enchanting songs only leave us voyagers shipwrecked and waylaid from our true destination. Wilber’s Atman Project is a process of delay, a postponement of confronting the reality of our situation. As the wise sage from Hoshiarpur smartly opined, “O, man your real helper is your own Self and your own Faith, but you are badly mistaken and believe that somebody from without comes to help you. No Hazrat Mohammad, No Lord Rama, Lord Krishna or any God or goddess or Guru comes from without. This entire game is that of your impressions and suggestions which are ingrained upon your mind, through your eyes and ears and of your Faith and Belief.”
But are we ready to transcend our projective arcs and proceed unencumbered and unknowing into the source from which our very consciousness arises? Or, are we more predisposed to rely on proxy representatives to do our bidding? If we succumb to the latter option, we are left to be spectators to our own journey. Yes, it will be safer, less demanding, and temporarily satisfying, but in the end it will leave us empty and spiritually vacuous.

Looking for God in all the wrong places and all the wrong faces is definitely a thing. I often wonder if the Christian concept of being saved is sort of at the root of this, or maybe it is just laziness and irresponsibility and immaturity generally. Or infantile transference – looking for Mom or Dad to do for us what we are legitimately unable. Probably a combination of all those things. But simply marching by someones drumbeat and not actually engaging consciousness and making effort to untie what binds it seems just dumb. If you work at anything in small incremental steps there is always a result, just not necessarily the result you expected.

G.S. wrote: “It hurts to see what Radha Soami has become, it’s probably easier for people like Brian and others who don’t have RS families to move on and not feel affected. But this is the path i grew up following, what hurts the most is how the mass followers are being duped. ”
Hello again!
Actually, I completely agree with this sentiment (except the “duped” part, I think that is an over-simplification, actually….I tend to give RSSB and Gurinder more credit than that? I don’t know though!). I was going to write about this the other day…
…..a lot of my recent comments and criticisms of RSSB & Gurinder have stemmed from a feeling of disappointment with Gurinder & RSSB, not anger, bitterness or anything like that, but disappointment in the sense you share…..the feeling they’re letting down his followers, and people I also still consider “family”, by being, errrrm, how else to say it but a BAD example of “deeply spiritual people”. It is the same feeling of “disappointment” you can have with a parent or child….you still love them, you point out why the behaviour is not appropriate….but you are NOT judging or condemning them, the criticism is fuelled by a deep empathy.
Okay, that sounded like rambling to me so Sat Purush only knows how it reads to someone else! 🙂
I have to just add, though, this feeling of empathy and hope RSSB followers are not being “duped” is easily….and SHOULD BE….extended to ALL others of ALL faiths, beliefs and disbelief……they are all someone’s family!

Hello Manjit,
Yes I have the same exact feeling toward RS and Gurinder, i know it’s easy to be angry and bitter, but i’m not, perhaps i haven’t meditated for 30 years and realised what the path is really about.
But I still want the best for RS, I still have that attachment to it because my family are initiated, and the sevadors at my centre were like family. This Shivinder guy isn’t the best choice given his background, it would be a little difficult seeing this guy worshipped by your family, at least with the other Guru’s they had morals.

Hey G.S.,
The quote from one of Brian’s links, where he apparently demanded more money during a boardroom meeting whilst banging his fists down or some such….oh boy .
Heartbreaking, really.
It reminds of when I was a follower of RSSB, I heard about the “mystical path” of Nizari Ismailism, a path very similar to RS and shabd yoga, in several ways…..but then finding out about their “Satguru”, the Aga Khan…..in more moderns times, their guru had “descended” (in my opinion at the time) into the trappings of wealth, celebrity, sexuality etc.
The same feeling I had then….but in smug judgement of the “other’s” guru, I have now towards RSSB….but as mentioned before, not as “other”, but as what was at least once, if not still, “family”….
However, as I’ve stated my belief & hope before, I think the “spiritual path” is a profoundly private thing where “success” is based purely on one’s own sincerity, honesty, urgency, love, compassion etc, NOT which “Godman” you have handed over all responsibility too….and in that sense, there are NO “false” gurus or paths!
Imo, anyway.
Cheers,
Manjit

I think the “spiritual path” is a profoundly private thing where “success” is based purely on one’s own sincerity, honesty, urgency, love, compassion etc, NOT which “Godman” you have handed over all responsibility too….and in that sense, there are NO “false” gurus or paths!
Yes, you’re thinking along the lines of Faqir Chand, you have a point, the Guru is still important and he must go beyond the basic teachings like Faqir in order for us to nurture those qualities you mentioned and make progress.
RSSB doesn’t cover any of this, and from what I’ve read about Faqir, a lot of his disciples made progress faster with him than when they were with RSSB and other branches.

Hi Jesse
You asked “Why is it hard for you to accept that I believe that these guys who are under investigation for serious fraud might have actually committed fraud with the help and/or knowledge of their family members who were involved in the business with them?”
No Jesse, I don’t think you understand.
The courts are doing their job. But that is not for you or I to conclude innocent or guilty.
You and Brian did indeed make accusations of guilt.
A close inspection of the inter company loans reveals they were to organizations without collateral, as I’ve discussed above.
At the least that isn’t legal nor good management.
Nor is rubber stamping acne medicine inspections.
But something else was going on here that you both seem unable to see for yourselves.
In the case of Ranbaxy the company was stretched to handle the explosion in medication production for Africa at or below cost.
Then loans were rotated to help cover the enormous fine from the FDA, the largest in history.
In the case of Fortis, loans were shuffled to cover small hospitals and vendors with no collateral.
Yes, in the midst of human failings, an effort to stretch for patients and aids patients.

More about the Fortis intercompany loans
https://m.economictimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/fortis-malvinder-singh-authorised-funds-diversion-into-related-entities/articleshow/64773769.cms

“We’re in no position to decide who is guilty or innocent. Let me explain why these guys are innocent and how moral they are. ”
Super honest guy you are, Spence Defense.

Hi Jesse
You falsely quoted
“”We’re in no position to decide who is guilty or innocent. Let me explain why these guys are innocent and how moral they are. ”
Super honest guy you are, Spence Defense”
What I actually wrote was
“No Jesse, I don’t think you understand.
The courts are doing their job. But that is not for you or I to conclude innocent or guilty.”
Jesse, there’s this little thing that’s gained in popularity among all the brightest commentators on the internet called ‘reading’. Google it. Might help you.

Here is more detail on the loans to o
Healthcare facilities, including emergency services, that had little collateral.
https://m.economictimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/singh-brothers-may-have-taken-fresh-loans-from-fortis-to-repay-funds-diverted-from-hospital-chain-company-says/articleshow/64898856.cms

Obviously if I wanted to cut and paste your blathering dishonesty I would have. But I made my point with a more humorous paraphrase of it.
You want to me not judge, even as you judge. But your only reason for not wanting others to judge negatively is that contrary to your belief, RSSB cuzzie probably doesn’t just want to save all the African babies. There is zero evidence of this. Your theory is absolutely baseless and without evidence.
They’re not being investigated for charity. They’re being investigated for “serious fraud.” There is a difference between charity and fraud.
Some business failing that happens to be going on simultaneous to African expansion doesn’t mean that the African expansion was some deep heartfelt sense of moral obligation on the part of RS fambly man.
You only want that to be so because then it makes your cult look better. Period.
You’re not being honest.

“No Jesse, I don’t think you understand.
The courts are doing their job. But that is not for you or I to conclude innocent or guilty.”
“Yes, in the midst of human failings, an effort to stretch for patients and aids patients.”
Compare and contrast the two conflicting sentiments of a cult defender.

Jesse
When I write that we should not judge and to let the courts do that, I don’t think that ‘s cult thinking.
And when I offer the articles for your own interpretation that isn’t cult thinking.
But don’t let facts stand in the way of hatred.
Just understand where your priorities are.

“When I write that we should not judge and to let the courts do that, I don’t think that ‘s cult thinking.”
I guess you missed the most obvious point I made which is that you are judging as much as I. You haven’t waited for the courts decision any longer than I have before you jumped in with your “RSSB and fam love African babies” bit.
Take your own advice maybe?

This amazingly banal polemic being engaged in right now between Spence Defense and I is an almost picture perfect example of what led me out of religion.
Religion itself might not need to make people unaware of their glaringly obvious double standards and biases, but from what I can tell, it’s more common amongst the religious.
Judging is bad. Let me share my judgement with you. I’m not judging, you are.

No Jesse
I don’t say they are innocent.
I provide only a possibility of lesser crimes.
If spirituality only opens our mind to acknowledging possibility and our own limitations is has succeeded.
Hatred, Jesse, should always be applied sparingly.
If at all.

I guess you missed the most obvious point I made which is that you are judging as much as I. You haven’t waited for the courts decision any longer than I have before you jumped in with your “RSSB and fam love African babies” bit.

Jesse, you’re shouting “hang ’em high” before they’ve even been
indicted. We’re judgmental. Everyone has opinions about someone’s guilt or innocence but due process is sacred.
P.S.
I was reminded how judgmental I was today in mid-fantasy – a scene that ended with Trump “doin’ the perp walk”.

You’re an absolute hypocrite, Spencer.
I said that I DON’T KNOW, not “These guys are 100% guilty.”
Maybe the Money Clan is innocent and saving all the Africans, as India aka Habshi loverstan has a long history of doing. Maybe they’re guilty of fraud, which is extremely rare in India, being that it’s one of the least corrupt places on earth. (God please don’t make me point out that this is sarcasm.)
You’re offended that I’ve expressed my belief in the possibility of your God and his family being frauds. It’s not about judgement. It’s about judgement that isn’t favorable to your religion’s optics and your personal ego that likely has decades invested into it.

“Jesse, you’re shouting “hang ’em high” before they’ve even been
indicted. ”
No, I’m saying “In my opinion they are more likely guilty than not.”
Spencer is literally telling us that he knows it was a bad business decision because Indians just want to help the African babies. I have no inclination to reread all his gibberish, but I don’t remember him ever prefacing any of his statements with “there’s a chance” or “i think” etc. He just jumps right into “My God’s nephew threw money in the garbage because he loves Africans.”
Read the posts, Dungeness.

Sant Jesse Declareth!
Thou Shalt Not Judgeth, Unlesseth Of Course Thy Judgement Be Makineth Thouest Guru Cult Looketh Favorable.

Here’s another business story about the misadventures of the Singh brothers, Malvinder and Shivinder. In addition to being embroiled in legal problems, they’ve lost their shares in Fortis. See:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-13/fortis-picks-ihh-healthcare-over-tpg-bid-in-india-hospital-deal
Excerpts:
——————–
A bidding war for cash-strapped Fortis kicked off earlier this year after its founders, brothers Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, lost their shareholding due to debt, and allegations that they had improperly taken funds from the company. A four-months-long takeover fight drew as many as five potential suitors from as far away as the U.S. and China, all keen to win a prime position in one of the world’s most under-served health-care markets.
…Not only must Fortis’s new owner turn around three straight quarters of losses, it must also deal with the fallout from the conclusions of investigations by government agencies. A report by an outside law firm commissioned by Fortis’s board found about 4.5 billion rupees were loaned amid “systemic lapses,” and were used by the borrowers to ultimately repay money owed to entities with ties to the Singh brothers. Fortis had to write off the amounts in the latest quarter even as it initiated legal action to recover the missing money.

Brian,
That article is highly biased. Nowhere in it does it mention the undeniable fact that the only thing these billionaires in both money and spirit ever wanted to do was to save precious African souls from the plague of AIDS. And the only way they could save their beloved African babies was to not use a single paisa of their personal money, but use investor money instead.
Jesse

Brian, I do have a serious question if you wish to speculate.
In the article it says
“The sales process, which often played out in the press with offers and counter bids disclosed publicly, had to be restarted several times amid questions about the board’s independence, which eventually saw all its directors replaced.”
Now, if I recall, there were companies which all these RS Singhs were involved with that had their boards stacked with satsangis.
Might this be the issue being discussed here, or is Fortis not one one of the RS related companies?

“We are a cult.” Charan Singh
Just quoting your Guru, Dungeness.
Posted by: Jesse | July 11, 2018 at 02:12 PM

Yet when asked, you could not cite any book, anecdote,
or anything that memorialized this quote. But RSSB is still
a “cult” in your kangaroo court.

“Jesse, you’re shouting “hang ’em high” before they’ve even been
indicted. ”
No, I’m saying “In my opinion they are more likely guilty than not.

That’s the tamest rendition of your vitriol I’ve seen yet. You may
try to pretend you’re not just arriving from kangaroo court but
your earlier remarks belie it. Wow, I can’t think of a defense
attorney, who wouldn’t want to voir dire you the hell off his
case. Any case.

Jesse, I’m not sure about the board of Fortis. I have heard that the board of Religare is stacked with satsangis. The same might be true of Fortis, but I don’t know. Here’s a quote from one of “Tara’s” comments that I shared in my “Devastating criticism…” post.
—————-
Mike, Yes, financial oscillations between RSSB and Religare are a very likely scenario. Money going to and fro, borrowing and lending — it may all be happening. That would also help explain why the Singh Brothers gave Religare shareholding to no other relative, other than Gurinder. The RSSB purse-strings are solely in his hands and the RSSB-trust is mega cash-rich, and a tax-free pot of gold.
So, my take is that the Singh Brothers put in their capital and Gurinder was given a preferential allotment of equity based on his three-fold role : One, the promise of the ” support of the RSSB-trust ” as and when required. Two, Gurinder brought to the Religare table a band of RS loyalists ( like Sunil Godhwani, now Group CEO of Religare ) and RS board members who would keep everything under wraps and unquestionably sign any document.

Dungeness,
I have no RSSB books anymore, but at one point I had nearly every book they’d ever printed, as well as hundreds of those weird maroon colored magazines full of horrid poetry they used to print, and various audio tapes that are out of circulation now too. The best were the tales of the mystic east and the earlier editions of dr julian “i was murdered by a satsangi” johnson’s path of the supposed masters.
My apologies for not remembering exactly which publication specifically quoted Charan Singh when he said RSSB was a cult, but to be frank, I’ve forgotten more about this retarded bhakti knockoff than you’ll ever learn. So don’t think you’re some clever person for noticing that I no longer own those poorly printed books and can’t spend hours looking for the quote.
You’re obviously not able to keep up with what is being said between Spence and I. No worries, he’s unable to keep up himself. But I’ll give you a clue, I was never outright accusing RSSB Cuzzo of fraud. So in your attempt at comparing our “arguments” it would be best for you to judge the man you’ve come here to defend who claims RSSB’s fam wants to save the African babies from AIDS.
My position has always been that I’m unsure, but suspicious, so accusing me of being unsure makes you look like a mouth breathing cultist but with the added bonus of being illiterate.
Jesse, The Astral Projecting Saint

Thanks for that, Brian.
Another question I have is if you or anyone else knows if this https://www.dhillongroup.com is one of their companies. I can’t remember now how I found it, but it was the top search result when I googled one of their other company names.
I’m hoping to find out so I can confirm whether or not God approves of gambling and liquor. Cause if God himself is selling lotto tickets and Seagram’s gin, I’m definitely buying, scratching and drinking.
Jesse

Hi Brian
Reading the Fortune expose you posted and then the justice department’s judgment leaves little doubt about the prolonged and purposeful culture of corruption at Ranbaxy.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/generic-drug-manufacturer-ranbaxy-pleads-guilty-and-agrees-pay-500-million-resolve-false
Clearly the politifact article I had read and cited earlier was woefully incomplete and a whitewash of actual events.

Sadly, Brian, your effort to link everything to Gurindar is pure conjecture.
You wrote
“I have heard that the board of Religare is stacked with satsangis. The same might be true of Fortis, but I don’t know. Here’s a quote from one of “Tara’s” comments that I shared in my “Devastating criticism…” post.
—————-
Mike, Yes, financial oscillations between RSSB and Religare are a very likely scenario. Money going to and fro, borrowing and lending — it may all be happening. That would also help explain why the Singh Brothers gave Religare shareholding to no other relative, other than Gurinder. The RSSB purse-strings are solely in his hands and the RSSB-trust is mega cash-rich, and a tax-free pot of gold.
So, my take is that the Singh Brothers put in their capital and Gurinder was given a preferential allotment of equity based on his three-fold role : One, the promise of the ” support of the RSSB-trust ” as and when required. Two, Gurinder brought to the Religare table a band of RS loyalists ( like Sunil Godhwani, now Group CEO of Religare ) and RS board members who would keep everything under wraps and unquestionably sign any document.”
There is a lot of second and third hand rumor, and a bit of your own conjecture, Brian.
I honor facts, and acknowledge the corruption detailed in the FDA judgment against Ranbaxy, followed by the detailed expose with first hand witnesses in the Fortune article.
But in contrast, your comments are far from that standard.
When Gurindar is found guilty, please post that here and I will read it.
Until then, I wonder why you, who claim an interest in truth, would mix facts with projections and conjectures, except they are all so very dark and support your bias.
That seems the common theme.

“I honor facts” such as when you said earlier that these corruption accusations were all “conjecture” ?
No, you don’t honor facts, Mr. “He’s curing AIDS.”

Spence, Probably someone has brought this up before.. If you believe the RSSB teachings, whether it be version 1, 2, 3 or 86, why are you here? I know version 1 says to avoid intellectual arguments once you have accepted the path and are initiated. Thenceforth you are enjoined to work for liberation of your soul by stilling the mind and riding the shabd to pure regions of rapture so that you never again will be compelled to take rebirth in this filthy cesspool of Pind (the physical universe). You know there is no end to the mind game. Believers generally don’t come here, with some exceptions, and non-believers will never be satisfied. Wouldn’t meditation and satsang be more of a priority than this blog?
I mean, do what you like. You are a stalwart contributor here, but there are oceans of maya to cross and life is short. Just sayin’.

You’re obviously not able to keep up with what is being said between Spence and I. No worries, he’s unable to keep up himself. But I’ll give you a clue, I was never outright accusing RSSB Cuzzo of fraud. So in your attempt at comparing our “arguments” it would be best for you to judge the man you’ve come here to defend who claims RSSB’s fam wants to save the African babies from AIDS.

Gosh, arrogant, patronizing, and dismissive too. You’re right
though, I haven’t pored over the investigation’s legal minutia.
I suspect you haven’t either and are letting bias fill in the blanks.
We all do of course.
However, your extreme anger and personal bias is evident
in the overreach of your vitriol. Attributing a “We are a cult”
remark to Charan Singh (without a shred of proof) shows
the depths of your hatred. Your apology rings as hollow as
the rest of your rants.
That said, I wish you the best. We all fall short in dealing with
the real enemy inside of us.
“We have met the enemy and he is us”. Walt Kelly

Spencer, you’re amusing.
You discount the observations of a RSSB insider who was very conversant with the connections between Religare and RSSB. You call those observations “conjecture.” Yet you have shared dozens of comments relating to God, supernatural realms, and other entities for which there is zero demonstrable evidence.
Methinks you have a massive defect in your own vision, yet you criticize others who are seeing much more clearly than you do. Keep it up. Those who are ignorant of their own ignorance are the last to know about it.

I read few remarks about the Dhillon group of companies being related to GSD but as I searched the company website, I found it is owned by some millionaire names Kewal Singh Dhillon and has no connection whatsoever with GSD

“Gosh, arrogant, patronizing, and dismissive too. ”
Thanks, Dungeness. That means a lot to me.

Thanks, Dev.
I didn’t know if Kewal was related to the other Dhillons or not, but this quote from the Times of India raises suspicion of a relationship-
“Kewal Singh Dhillon, has such a fetish for wristwatches that he has distributed nearly 1,000 of them among his supporters and members of his election campaign staff.”
Charan Singh also had a wrist watch fetish. Coincidence? Or are wristwatch fetishes genetically heritable?
I’ll let you decide.
Jesse

Thanks, Dungeness. That means a lot to me.

That’s the spirit!

“I’ll let you decide.”
How can you let other decide ?
If others are to decide, they won’t wait for your letting them decide,
If you are thinking YOU are letting them decide, means you have taken the decision first.
after wrist watches, what next you want to include – fans and curtains ?
What’s to be decided by the way, brilliant HELIZL Jesse ?

One Initiated,
I’ll let you decide of you think your very serious reply to an obviously sarcastic comment would put you in the category of an online “sperg” or not.
I’ll also let you decide if you think Charan Singh had an obsession with curtains or not. I’ll let you decide if you want to search through “the books” and talk with satsangis whether or not Charan asked people to bring curtains to India for him so he could avoid paying taxes like he did with his bucket loads of wrist watches.
I’ll let you decide whatever you want to decide, really.
Jesse

One Initiated,
I’ll let you decide if you want to read the contents of this link with some pretty specific details about Charan Singh’s likely illegal attempt at smuggling personal gifts with the use of free satsangi mule labor.
http://www.oocities.org/rssbdata/questionable.htm
I’ll let you decide how much of a creep Charan Singh probably was and how unsaintly his illegal behavior was.
Jesse

Jesse,
Again you are only talking about others’ experiences
and pointing to random blog posts.
But you are not talking about the first hand experiences.
Do you realise that we have some great accounts posted here
on this Brian’s blogs as comments ?
Which are real, rich and first hand experiences of the posters.
What’s your take on those ? All illusions ?
When you get trapped in the tricks of the mind,
you will happen to only believe the failures
and call all the successful accounts as illusions.
Do you realise your behaviour is almost exactly the same as
all those who have failed ?
– Lost faith on the Master and The Path
– Curse the Master
– Whole hearted belief on the failed disciples accounts
– Call all the successful ones as illusions
There is a set pattern and you are no exception.
If you have surrendered yourself to your mind
and decided to go astray, it’s a sad situation.
I wish you’ll see the light and experience the truth,
much before the setting of the Sun.

One Initiated,
You are literally reading me quotes from your cult’s handbook on a website written by an ex cult member.
You ask about first hand experiences-
“What’s your take on those ? All illusions ?”
And my answer is “Yes.” Absolutely I think that as far as people seeing things in their head when they sit still for a few hours it is all illusions. As I said earlier- auto suggestion.
When you can find a way to prove otherwise, let me know. Otherwise, keep rambling about your cult while your Greedy Guru gets richer and richer and your country gets poorer and more corrupt. Doesn’t matter to me.
Jesse

Hi Brian
You wrote
“You discount the observations of a RSSB insider who was very conversant with the connections between Religare and RSSB. You call those observations “conjecture.” Yet you have shared dozens of comments relating to God, supernatural realms, and other entities for which there is zero demonstrable evidence.”
The demonstrable evidence can only be within one’s own experience, or the yearning for such experience that comes from within.
And there are centuries of anecdotal experience as well.
As for rumors and slander, I see you place real faith in these. Worship that.
“We do not see the world as it is. We see it as we are.”
Anais Nin

Spencer, you’re right.
I find someone, Tara, who socialized with Gurinder Singh/Charan Singh and who comes from a family with four generations of experience with RSSB, and who exhibits a lot of knowledge about the business dealings of Gurinder Singh and the Singh brothers, to be much more credible than someone, you, who has no direct knowledge of these affairs, and who claims to have experienced supernatural realms of reality though you provide zero demonstrable evidence of this.
Why should anyone believe your statements over those of Tara?

Brian
I get that you want to believe the Tara narratives as it’s polemic flatters your own. However, your description of that author…
“Tara, who socialized with Gurinder Singh/Charan Singh and who comes from a family with four generations of experience with RSSB, and who exhibits a lot of knowledge about the business dealings of Gurinder Singh and the Singh brothers,”
…. Is not actually correct.
Unlike your claim above the narrative does not contain ‘Baba Ji said to me…” No claims of first hand accounts with Baba Ji nor first hand witness of any personal private events or behind the scenes behavior directly witnessed by the author.
The narrative is filled with conjecture about what’ might be ‘ or’ probably is ‘ happening. And to a lesser extent a lot of Hollywood / people magazine kiss and tell references to “a good close friend who is in the inner circle confided in me that…”
The narrative is filled with financial information anyone can get from the news. The emphasis on finance and investment and the complete naivete about spiritual philosophy, including any connection with a mature Satsangi she respects for their spiritualitythrows the objectivity of the narrator into serious doubt.
You and I do not agree on many things, but I do respect the core foundation of your belief in Atheism as grounded in your experience at the highest ethic of personal truth. I don’t question that. I honor it.
The author has no such objectivity.

Hi Brian
You ask
“Why should anyone believe your statements over those of Tara?”
They should not believe anything that can’t be verified personally. They would include slander just as readily as spiritual experience.
But if there were one thing I couldn’t verify but chose to believe, it would be some positive place of future progress whose vision and belief actually brought me closer to that.

Jesse,
“And my answer is “Yes.” Absolutely I think that as far as people seeing things in their head when they sit still for a few hours it is all illusions”
Because you’ve not yet seen inside your head.
Once you will see, you will realise it’s not just seeing,
it’s experiencing the Authority.

“Because you’ve not yet seen inside your head”
Neither have you, One Initiated, which is why you’re online trying to convince me of this supposedly wonderful inner experience that is so pure and addicting that it makes men into angels.
If you were seeing God in your head, you’d have no time to argue with me.
Be honest with yourself. You’ve seen nothing. You’ve heard nothing. And you’re in a cult.
Jesse

Like I said,
As you are currently trapped badly in the mind games,
It’s impossible for someone to even tell their own experiences to you currently.
That’s a sad situation you are in right now.
You can reason anything and anyone – and that’s the duty of mind.
You will convincingly accept the experiences of failures,
and reject the valid, proven and rich experiences,
however both claims just by telling – for there is no other way.
Exceptionally – the failures doesn’t even need to prove anything,
they have just to say “NO” “NOTHING” and it’s agreeable.
Exclude me, I was not even telling about myself either,
What about Spencer, 777 and Jim,
these guys have shared their beautiful inner experiences.
When someone says there isn’t water in a transparent glass –
You: “OK Accepted.”
And the other one says it’s filled with something
which taste beyond any possible taste in this world,
You reply: “No” I can’t see it.
Him: “It’s invisible, can’t be seen. You’ve to come up and taste it, it’s amazing”
You: “There are more people saying there is nothing”
You: “No, I won’t even bother to come up and taste. It’s not visible, I don’t think it exist”
Him: “Your wish” 😌
Him: “By the way, if ever you will change your mind at all, the glass is always available
to be tasted and experienced, don’t let your guilt and ego to pull you always back from tasting it”

Thanks for repeating the propaganda, One, but I read it all years ago as a satsangi.

Yes reading all years is still easier,
than to wake up at 3 AM and sat for 2.5 hours
for continuous 40 days.
honestly, did you ever ?
before coming to the conclusion of illusion ?
It takes a lot of guts and is not easy to be strict on yourself.
We forgive our own mistakes so easily,
whereas for the exact same mistakes by others,
we are harshly judgemental. Think in silence.
It’s an eternal grip – A Mahajaal (Guru Nanak).
40 days is a small timespan,
worth the experiment, the results are outstanding.
And the flavour is amazing.
A truly scientific person would surely do that.

Hi Jesse
You write
“Thanks for repeating the propaganda, One, but I read it all years ago as a satsangi.”
Was that RSSB?
When?
What hapened?

Jesse :
“” If you were seeing God in your head, you’d have no time to argue with me. “”
ALL the time with ALL in capitals
Jesse, You can’t know, . . don’t judge such a situation in so many of 10M disciples
777

777, all 10 million are liars and frauds, including you.

“Was that RSSB?
When?
What hapened?”
Spencer, what happened is that I learned that RSSB is full of sh*t and its followers are generally not good people. I also learned that the leader of RSSB who calls himself God happens to be at the center of a lot of illegal activity which i don’t want to be associated with.
Jesse

Hi Jesse
So, you were initiated?
How long ago?
Did you practice the meditation at all?

I was initiated somewhere between 2005 and 2009 by a cult member named Frank Vogel in a hotel meeting room in Chicago. It was so lame that I don’t even remember when it was.
I practiced the meditation, had some “mystical experiences” which I don’t believe were “mystical” at all, and I am now here trying to have discussions with rational people, which you are preventing me from doing because the cult floods message boards where ex members dare to speak their heretical views on so-called sant mat.
This began happening on other online communities I found, which is a pretty telltale sign of a cult i.e. inability to accept that people think you’re wrong.

Hi Jesse
You wrote
“inability to accept that people think you’re wrong.”
Interesting.
If you can accept the same what’s the problem?
I have an interesting story about Frank, for another time.

Hi Tucson
You asked why I comment here and noted..
“You know there is no end to the mind game. Believers generally don’t come here, with some exceptions, and non-believers will never be satisfied. Wouldn’t meditation and satsang be more of a priority than this blog?”
Let’s pretend for the moment that in Meditation, looking through the scrolls of history (including the point of history we are currently living through) , we find in our last life we were friends. And in our next life all of us here, Brian, you, Jesse, Manjit, Jen, One, 777, Dungeness, are all going to be family and neighbors, and for me, most disagreeable, that Brian will be the head of a family that I have the misfortune of being born into at his son! Once having accepted this as fact, that I must return, then the question.. What can I do to make things go more smoothly?
Let’s follow this fantasy story for a moment. Let’s say a wizard gave you the chance to communicate with these folks before hand and grease the wheels. Especially with the guy who is destined to be your next dad.
The rules of engagement are simple.
He is going to be in great conflict with you as a rebellious son is viewed by a narrow minded father.
You have a chance to help him accept someone he believes is absolutely wrong, as decent, and worthy of both compassion and honor : the exact attitude of a truly great parent, who will never understand completely their kids but supports them 1000% with every cell in their body (that would describe my dad in this life).
Now, if at any point that future dad though you might be right that would actually destroy the opportunity to lay down the impressions of tolerance for the next.
So you must do two things. Maintain the disbelief of those around you, and find a way to engender their tolerance, acceptance and good will even while personally they think your are dead wrong.
But its all just fantasy, right? The one who will pull that family through it and actually bring them to the Path once more will be the woman who will play the role of Mom, who, right now, is in meditation, and had left this world several years ago, but who knew your future Dad very well.
So while I am also providing you the reasons, I’m maintaining my role as the oddball who is not to be believed.
Only the heart could discern the truth of that.

There was no internet when I learned about RSSB. The only info I could find on them came from themselves. Had i read the account on Jesse’s link, that would have ended my interest there and then.
If the master is not GIHF, then the whole thing is a fraud. A deception from day 1. You know this.

PJ
This has been a long debunked narrative. But people will believe without question what they will.
Contact Indian Embassy in New York City as I did years ago after reading this questionable narrative. Let them confirm for you what they confirmed for me.
I made a phone appointment with the Embassy “Secretary”..actually more like the Embassy manager.
He confirmed that it is customary, part of the actual expectation, that friends and relatives use their declaration limit to bring things in for friends, relatives, even for one’s Guru. Entirely legal and expected. He even asked for the name of my Guru and the location in India, then replied “Yes, yes, entirely normal.”
A second narrative circulating at the time was that people were smuggling in Pcs under their declaration limit as their own personal goods. But as with all the above, everyone showed everything at customs, and indicated the PC was going to be a gift.
I asked the Secretary if this was legal, or if there was some issue with bringing technology into the country.
“No. It is certainly not a problem, so long as it is within the visitor’s declaration limit and they are willing to pay whatever duty remains on the additional amount. Very standard, and nothing unusual there. Gifts of technology from the West are quite popular.. ”
Believe what you will.
Believe one ‘s own prejudice.
Or go to the minimal effort to pick up the phone.
It’s all a reflection of what is in you.

Delared, yes. But he specifically says that he was bringing things in undeclared. But I’ll grant you this, he doesn’t say it was by order of Charan Singh. Maybe this Mohinder guy just got carried away, and later Charan was embarassed by it.

Just accidentally deleted a long comment, but let’s get this straight.
Spence called the extremely busy and disorganized Indian embassy, they took time to answer his questions about Gurus, and the current staff during this computer era knew the details of import duties during the 1970’s.
I’m willing to bet Spence is, just as he was when he claimed to know everything about Gurinder’s family’s business, full of sh*t.
There’s no way they’d waste the time to answer your stupid questions about 1970’s imports. I’ve had to talk to the Chicago consulate and NY embassy for legitimate VISA related things and I simply don’t believe you.
The more you post, the less I think you’re honest. Every single thing posted about your God is met with an immediate rebuttal that you claim is so sound and true only until we find out it isn’t. Just like “they’re curing AIDS in Africa” until oops…. Ranbaxy sold dirty meds even after getting caught doing it. You didn’t do your homework.

Jesse
I had to make an appointment with the embassy.
Call the Embassy. Make an appointment.
Even undeclared items that you own can be given as gifts, they said.
Jesse, your flames of bullying cleanse my soul, thank you.

Spence says: “And in our next life all of us here, Brian, you, Jesse, Manjit, Jen, One, 777, Dungeness, are all going to be family and neighbors, and for me, most disagreeable, that Brian will be the head of a family that I have the misfortune of being born into at his son!
The one who will pull that family through it and actually bring them to the Path once more will be the woman who will play the role of Mom, who, right now, is in meditation, and had left this world several years ago, but who knew your future Dad very well.”
Spencer, absolutely horrifying! Hope you are not psychic and this is just a dream (more like a nightmare). Jesse as a brother – all out war lol

“I had to make an appointment with the embassy.”
Sorry Spencer, but I don’t believe you. Sorry.
I trust myself, and I recognize your kind of deceptive behavior.
Jesse

Jesse
No problem.
No one should believe either of us.
But when you post an unverified accusation against anyone, don’t be surprised when it is challenged.
If they are really interested in truth anyone can do as I did, make an appointment with the Indian Embassy and find out.
We live in an age when fake news, unverified accusations, basically slander, fills the interned and is accepted as truth.
And clearly this Church has its share of propaganda.
But truth is something else. Brian defined the standard: fact. So here it is.
Call and check if you are interested.
And avoid bullying, Jesse. It undermines your credibility.

Jen
You wrote
“All out war.”
What are you fighting to defend?
What do you believe is being threatened?
I may be misguided, but it seems I’m usually on the defensive against some slander or another.
Was there ever a time here when you were not at war with someone or something?
War has its place, but before jumping there, because there is always collateral damage, please help me understand your answers to the above questions.
Dialogue is much preferred.
Can you love someone you don’t like?
I think that’s what it means to avoid judgment and live in a world with many different people, each like family..
Your bro
Spence

Spencer,
I don’t like Jesse. I think he is all about creating trouble here on this blog. I really have to stop reading and posting here. Its not a nice atmosphere, to me anyway, people just constantly fighting. Whats the point. It used to be different. Jesse is just here to mess with people’s minds.

Thank you Jen
Your annoying oddball (slightly delusional) brother
Spence

“Jesse is just here to mess with people’s minds.”
There’s no reasonable way to talk to rs cult members. If you think the Vedas or the Bible or baba whoever inspired space travel (a common claim among all indian religions) then you’re likely crazy.

Spence,
I don’t think you are “annoying oddball or slightly delusional” 🙂
No probs bro.
Cheers
Jen

Hi Jesse! You write: “There’s no reasonable way to talk to rs cult members. If you think the Vedas or the Bible or baba whoever inspired space travel”
Oh! So you’re not aware of the history of Jack Parsons, the famous occultist, who designed “solid fuel” which enabled NASA’s shuttles to get into space?
Hey, I know you’re a fan of “pop-media”, so perhaps you should, instead of getting the real, deep, intimate history between the occult & “inspiring space travel”, you should just watch this current TV show on Jack Parsons, and how his occult beliefs led a nation into space?:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Angel
I like you, Jesse 🙂
Please come back and play tomorrow, I must sleep & perchance dream….who knows what scientific discoveries I may uncover!!

More Wiki (drearily superficial 🙂 on Jack Parsons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons_(rocket_engineer)
“John Whiteside “Jack” Parsons (born Marvel Whiteside Parsons;[nb 1] October 2, 1914 – June 17, 1952) was an American rocket engineer and rocket propulsion researcher, chemist, and Thelemite occultist.
……
Parsons’ occult and libertarian writings were published posthumously, with Western esoteric and countercultural circles citing him as one of the most significant figures in propagating Thelema across North America. Although academic interest in his scientific career was negligible, historians came to recognize Parsons’ contributions to rocket engineering. For these innovations, his advocacy of space exploration and human spaceflight, and his role in the founding of JPL and Aerojet, Parsons is regarded as among the most important figures in the history of the U.S. space program. He has been the subject of several biographies and fictionalized portrayals, including the television drama Strange Angel.”

Yes Manjit, I get it. Some people who see things invent important things sometimes.
Who cares?
There are life changing inventions and discoveries happening all the time, and when I read about them and listen to the inventors, almost never do they mention milk coming from murthis, sai baba ghosts or their guru manifesting his radiant form in front of them and telling them how electricity works or otherwise.
You’re dealing with a tiny fraction of important things in the world and attempting to make it look like an intrinsic link exists between ALL important things and supposed astral projecting mystic voodoo.

Sad to say, but Brian’s Blog is getting to be another “ Fight Club”, following the example of how David Lane’s Radhasoamis Fight Club became when Professor Lane could no longer handle even moderating the abusive Ad-hominem attacks of members against each other and had to retire from moderating the site, turninig it over to James Bean, who has turned it around and made it an interesting site to read again. If any one here is curious to see how it all ended, with border line insanity and melt down by ubusive members left unmoderated too long, search exsatsangi yahoo group, scroll thru the porno links until arriving at the War against Professor Lane! I believe ( and recognise ) some of those abusive Fight Clubers posting here using new pseudo Avatars.
I hope Brian Hines does not let this Forum deteriorate in to another RSS Fight Club RSSB Anarchy.
Church Mambers here might voluntarily take their own personal Inventory, as Alcoholics do in AA.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder
Peace,
Jim Sufherland

Jim,
My favorite websites are 4Chan and Gab, so an outright fightclub sounds great to me actually.
I don’t see being polite as something extremely valuable and often times those calling for everyone to be polite are doing it for less than honorable reasons. It’s a big shut-it-down tactic in American politics. Maybe you have good reasons for wanting heavier moderation, but if it’s just because people get butthurt for being called out, then I think it’s a bad idea.
My work here is pretty much done here, so people whining about me for not writing 3rd rate spiritual poetry can take a sigh of relief. They can go back to the safety of politeness and unchallenged cult beliefs, ufo’s and stigmata-experiencing inventors.
Not sure if it’s me who you’re accusing of changing names, but if you think that, then you’re wrong. I’ve posted on this site years ago with my name, Jesse. Brian wrote a little ex satsangi thing about me years ago, too.
Still the same Jesse. Still a straight G

Went to find a good UG (the OG) Krishnamurti quote and voila, Brian had already written about the guy.
Here’s some great wisdom for all, especially the conflicted and “polite” westerners who in our lifetimes are likely going to have to face the horrors we normally just inflict on poor brown people abroad in order to gain cheap starbucks and oil-
“Instead of being what you are — unkind — you pursue the fictitious opposite put before you — kindness. To emphasize what we should be, only causes strain, giving momentum to what we already in fact are.
In nature we find the animals at one time violent and brutal, at others kind and generous. For them there is no contradiction. But man is told he must be always good, kind, loving, never greedy or violent. We emphasize only one side of reality, thus distorting the whole picture.”
More to unpack in those few UG sentences than anything else we’re talking about here, including hidden money African AIDS cures and transcendentalist engineering breakthroughs.

Jesse wrote
“Kewal Singh Dhillon, has such a fetish for wristwatches that he has distributed nearly 1,000 of them among his supporters and members of his election campaign staff.”
Charan Singh also had a wrist watch fetish. Coincidence? Or are wristwatch fetishes genetically heritable?”
——————————————————
I think there are millions of people in India who may have fetish for wristwatches or whatever but does that mean they all are related to GSD.
You directly accused GSD for that Dhillon Group of Companies selling liquor as if it is owned by him or he has any role in that company whereas the truth is that the owner of the company is not even RSSB initiate….

I came across this comment the other day, can’t quite recall whose, and which I cannot immediately locate via a quick search, that within the RSSB lineage, succession always follows direct appointment by the previous master.
Assuming this is correct, then this is what I’d like to know : Given that the existing master appoints his successor, why then are there so many different lineages within Sant Mat?
Actually I’m asking this question only of those who subscribe to the RSSB ideology. Non-believers and “exers” can of course explain this easily by putting this whole thing down to power-grabbing, plain and simple, by whoever is able to. What I’m requesting for now is the believers’ POV about this question.
Thanks!

This is to bump up my comment, above, where I request RSSB followers/believers/sympathizers their view on this :
(a) The ‘fact’ that, within RSSB, the Master necessarily directly appoints his successor within his (the former’s) lifetime (do you agree with this?) ; and
(b) If the above is true, then surely the proliferation of denominations within Sant Mat seems curious? Do you have some explanation, some theory, about this proliferation?
I’m requesting only for the believer’s explanation, because the scoffer’s explanation is simple, the scoffer can, without effort, come up with quite a few plausible explanations. On the other hand, I cannot imagine what kind of explanation the belIever might put forward (while still remaining a believer).

Since nobody replied to your question about successorship, I’ll tell you what I told myself when I was a believer.
1. Masters sometimes appointed more than one successor for different locations and disciples, and the masters didn’t feel the need to tell anyone about it. I also thought that it was possible that the successors were appointed non-verbally or non-physically at times and that there may have been dozens, hundreds, or thousands of sat gurus initiating people and guru-ing all over the world in secret.
2. Masters who were competitors of my guru were frauds who’d usurped the holy mantle of “guy who gives talks about god and gets rich”, and that I had some ability to discern between the real and fake because, of course, I was a lucky marked soul. What this meant in reality is that I made excuses for my lineage (asli) and found faults in all the others (nakli).
There were more things I thought in those days but this is what I remember now.

Thanks for your response, Jesse. Absolutely, you qualify as believer, because you’re clearly channeling your earlier, believing self here.
Your #1 makes sense. That is, there isn’t necessarily any reason why that shouldn’t be so. Of course, your #2 seems a bit contradictory of your #1 (that is, not necessarily contradictory, exactly, but not quite in agreement with your #1 : after all, if your particular “master” can anoint twenty different successors, why then would his master not have, in turn, anointed twenty others, so that your own master can very legitimately end up having nineteen bona fide and perfectly genuine “competitors”?). But of course, I realize that was your (past) emotion speaking, not your reason. And you clearly no longer stand by those views.
You’re saying — going by your #1 — that RSSB followers would view (provided they shared your idea, expressed in your #1) that most (if not all) other Sant Mat denominations also are bona fide vehicles to the Ultimate. And so what we have today is not just one GIHF, but many GIHFs. That would seem to be the inescapable implication of this line of thought. Correct?
Great. That does answer my question.
I realize you can only speak for yourself, not for others, but would you have any idea at all what view, if any, the RSSB organization officially holds about this? About other “competitor” denominations?
Also, it would be interesting to know what other RSSB believers and sympathizers (or for that matter ex-believers and ex-sympathizers, channeling their earlier, faithful selves, like you did) felt about this. After all a sample size of three or four or five, while still being anecdotal, would be at least somewhat more general than a sample size of just one. Especially when that one is what is referred to in these parts as an “exer”.
PS : You know, Jesse, I realize, going by your past comments here, that it was far from your intention to boost up RSSB when you said this here, but still, this implication — without going into the ‘true’ or ‘false’ or the right or wrong of the whole RSSB ideology/theology, that would be a whole other discussion — would actually speak well of RSSB. I suppose I’d feel decidedly more sympathetic (other things being equal) of a religious denomination that viewed its other sister denominations with respect, than one which viewed followers of other denominations within the same religion as evil sinners and doomed hell-bound heretics. Like they do in Islam, for example.

“Like they do in Islam, for example.”
Islam is the “too easy” answer. A lot of ISKCON type of Hindus think that Shakti cult followers are pretty much doomed devil worshipers. A large number, possibly a majority, of Sikhs think Namdharis should be massacred for not believing in GGSJ as God. Charan Singh cut off communication with Agra RS and also Namdhari Sikhs, and though was quiet about it, seemed to think they were not truly spiritual people or something by the way he mentioned it in that weird book published just prior to his death.
Sectarianism is a universal aspect of religion. Not just Islam.
Also, my two choices weren’t contradictory.They were applied to each instance on the basis of “merit” which I now think was not merit at all.
It was just that if I thought someone was holy I considered the possibility that they were legitimate heirs not mentioned by the Guru because he knows best. But if for any reasons rational or not I disliked them, such as with Kirpal Singh’s RS or unaffiliated sects like the Nirankaris, I’d apply the second rule.
But I know I’m not alone on this either because I had conversations with others who agreed.

“…would actually speak well of RSSB. I suppose I’d feel decidedly more sympathetic (other things being equal) of a religious denomination that viewed its other sister denominations with respect”
But you didn’t ask about the gurus beliefs or the sect’s official stance. You asked about the beliefs of believers. There are many believers within the Catholic Church who emphasize the sayings of various saints that elude to the possibility of God’s grace giving salvation to all. Others emphasize the line you might have heard that says “there is no salvation outside the church.”
But the Church has doctrine that says one more than the other, and what various believers may or may think sounds good might not be right according to the church.
Same goes for RS. Me and my friends in the sangat’s theories and justifications have nothing to do with what RSSB teaches or what Gurinder, the only and final authority in the sect, believes. If he says tomorrow “all who were initiated by Kirpal will burn in hell” then that is the official RSSB teaching since the Guru is the religion. What I said or believed meant and means absolutely nothing so there’s no reason to think RS respects other denominations based on my theory.

Jesse, you make a valid point. With centrally-driven, near-dictatorial movements/religions/organizations like RSSB, or for that matter the Roman Catholic Church, the de facto beliefs and attitudes of the followers of these faiths have limited value if the aim is to find out what these religions really are about. In these cases, it is the diktat from above that would trump de facto belief on the ground every time.
(Unlike less centralized religions like — and once again the example that comes to mind is the same as the example I’d put forward last time — Islam. And this time it is Islam that comes across as more democratic and more open in principle, for better or for worse, to diverse interpretations and observances, than either the RCC or RSSB.)
So that, in asking the question that I did, the truly relevant factor would have been to focus no so much on individual believers’ views, but on the official RSSB view (preferably the view of the RSSB Gurus themselves, whether past or present) about other “sister” denominations and the Gurus leading those denominations. I take your point.
.
My question remains (in more coherent form now thanks to Jesse), should anyone here have that answer : How does RSSB — that is, the RSSB organization, and preferably one or more of the RSSB Masters — explain the existence other sister denominations, as well as the “Masters” leading those denominations? (I mean, given that succeeding Masters are always, apparently, personally anointed by the predecessor Master during the latter’s lifetime?) And what is its official stance towards these other denominations and other Sant Mat Masters?

Recent news suggest that Shivinder has finally broken his silence and filed a case against brother Malvinder because the case against both of them is tarnishing the reputation of Gurinder Dhillon. So, Shivinder (who is next in line to become babaji) says that he had no control over the doings of Malvinder. Anyone who believes this is a fool. If Malvinder and Shivinder both get dragged to court then obviously the name of Gurinder Singh also gets dragged in (plus Satsangs assets can be frozen). Also imagine the blow to all the followers. But if Shivinder now cries foul then this way one of them can be saved.

@ Dungeness
What is a cult?
Great Master’s teaching was so open. He said do not believe even a Master unless you experience it yourself. Do not be tied down to something that says don’t go anywhere else. You have a Master now you can’t go anywhere else. If you go anywhere else, you are being unfaithful. That is a cult. That is not the work of a Perfect Living Master. Perfect Living Master’s say go anywhere you like and find the best thing you can.
https://youtu.be/DolLFKvQt40?t=2587

Jesse
you have really gone mad.Are all dhillons in India or abroad related to RSSB. There may be thousands of persons with dhillon surname and they may be dealing in lottery,wine whatever.The dhillon grouo mentioned by you has no relations with RSSB or Master. You know it and only pretending to defame RSSB.I think you have lost senses..

Dharam, I’m pretty sure I said that I was not sure it was the same Dhillons in that Dhillon group.
But the RS Dhillons sold dangerous tainted medicines, so that’s worse than selling alcohol and lottery tickets.
Your master and his family have unethical business practices due to uncontrollable greed.