Gurinder Singh completely upends Sant Mat dogma

To me this is almost worse. The guy still sits on a stage and takes on the role of someone of extra special importance. He still sells the books. He still rides around on a golf cart giving “darshan.”
It’d be respectable if he shut the whole thing down, ceased the printing of books that have his photograph under which he’s labeled “master”, or something else more substantial.
Charan Singh also did the “i’m just a normal guy” routine. As of now RSSB is what it’s always been which is a guru cult with a lot of ways of showing “outs” to make it seem less culty.

Brian states that Gurinder Singh’s revised Sant Mat teachings sound a lot like like Zen and Alan Watts. I agree. I would also add that he sounds a lot like what is called “Neo Advaita”, somewhat disparagingly, these days even though it isn’t all that “Neo”. In fact, I think Watts generally sounds very Neo-Advaitist even though many of his works were written 50 years ago or so. Also Wei Wu Wei, who wrote books over 50 years ago, would be called “Neo” in today’s vernacular. But both of these philosophers were influenced by Zen and ancient Buddhist traditions such as Ch’an Bhuddism.
So, what’s up with Gurinder? Is he just jumping on the bandwagon of popular fad philosophy in order to stay current with modern trends and mindsets and to stay relevant, or has he decided to teach what he truly believes is more accurate from traditions over a thousand years old or more?
It is not of much concern to me what Gurinder says except as a curiosity since I was at one time a follower of Sant Mat. I don’t care if he appoints a chimpanzee who teaches Marxist Voodoo as his successor and exponent of the faith, but as I have said before, if I were a current Sant Mat devotee I would be confused and dismayed having to rationalize this radical departure. Which is it? The old or the new? Can’t be both because they are way different. Different ballparks, so to speak. Was the old a lie.. a deception? What does that say about Charan Singh or Sawan? Or, what does that say about Gurinder? Who is the deceiver? All of the above? ? ?

Jesse, while I can understand your viewpoint, in practice it’s really not like that.
The distinct impression I got was that
(1) He is having fun
(2) He is completely against the idea of GIHF.
(3) He claims to be nothing more than a human being who is guiding you on the spiritual path.
(4) He constantly makes it clear about not focusing on the physical.
Regarding the “cult”;
I mentioned the word “Radha Soami” at one point.
He interrupted me, “no, not Radha Soami”
I said “ok sant mat”
“No,” he replied, “just say “spirituality”
Someone said “please forgive me”
His reply: “I cannot forgive sins. The master is just a guide. I can guide you but I cannot do it for you.”
Yes he rides around in a golf cart giving darshan but I guess that must be fun too.
He is also very much into the idea of “live and let live”
“You choose your own path and let others choose their own.”
He has also said “this is ONE way but not the only way. It would be very arrogant of me to say this is the only way”
The reason I am personally impressed is that he is the first sant mat Baba to take away all the dogma and bring the focus back onto realising the oneness, which incidently is the same as the enlightenment teachings.
It is no small feat to take a sangat steeped in a duality mindset and tell them they have it all wrong.

@ Osho Robbins – enjoyed reading your post so thank you for sharing.
Thought popped into my mind – do you think it’s a ploy by him to help us in that he states that he cannot forgive sins.
I think he can! I believe, we are too trapped here to extract ourselves. We can’t do it of our own accord otherwise I could have won the £9 million Euro lottery last night. If I had power – which I have not got,
He wouldn’t admit it – no true master ever does. You have to meet him inside for him to spill the beans.
Have a good day

Luckily I hit refresh on the browser on my phone and immediately saw this article. OMG!!! I said I was going to take a break from commenting for a while but this is just too good!!
Thanks for sharing, Osho. Is that that your real first name?—just curious.
A while back I had booked another trip to Dera for this fall and have been trying to cancel the tickets. For a while I thought I would go and do some “investigative journalism” ;-), but now I almost want to go so that I can ask a lot more questions like these and then go back to my Satsangi family and say, “Seeeee… here it is”. Wish I could get it recorded for them, though. They would immediately say I misinterpreted what he said if I didn’t have it recorded.
Also, maybe now that he’s getting more and more exposure by the media and people are talking more in general, he’s realizing he needs to be a little more “honest”. If something not so flattering comes out… he’s sort of prepared people for “Hey, I said I wasn’t perfect.”
When, I had my interview with him at his private office connected to his home at Dera in Oct 2016, I sat outside waiting and there were all these statues of Buddha lining the brick wall outside that faces his office window. You can only see them if you are on the side of his office looking out. When I asked one of his personal (Home) sevadars about it, the sevadar whispered in my ear that Master’s family members are Buddhists. I don’t know which members exactly but pretty sure GSD has taken on some of those Buddhist beliefs as well (I was surprised too). Maybe there really won’t be a successor… and the Dera will just grow into a city with an interesting history at some point.

I don’t think its about deception. Probably many people in this modern era are more woke and no longer into the old fashioned New Age type of beliefs which were popular and this is a revised practical Sant Mat which also fits in with Zen philosophy and I’m well happy with that. I’m thinking that Gurinder is mirroring and playing games with satsangis with his crude comments to wake them up.
Hasn’t Gurinder said in the past ‘throw away the books’?

Hi Guys
I see y’r all very glad now and BBJ’s words make Faqir Chand a happy Soul
I want -like always- refer to relativety
Some years ago when addressing David Lane , and then he wrote his piece “The Guru”
or a title like that
Please make a knot in your ears and don’t forget the following
You know that the first weeks / months / perhaps years / perhaps much longer
a RSSB Satguru is somewhat disturbed, goes in isolation or what
Also : He want to escape but cannot find a way out fast enough !
God gives Him just what He needs as is the case with all of us.
In his cas even double, triple humbleness
BUT HE IS THE APPOINTED ( SEALED & ANNOINTED ) successor
of many Guru predecessors and contains the Power of The Words
to spread to the willing
All around Him serendipities happen and also in the seekers, – – He cannot be else than flabbergasted .
Now stamp on this phenomenon Guru Nanak’s sincere expression ( Adi Granth)
” Such says Nanak, The Lowliest of the Lowly ”
Imaging that for this GIANT who is sacrificing now his whole life
certain informations are blocked
He still is human, and is still amazed about all that happens
just does His Job
while we see HIM in FULL SPLENDOR
not everybody , but it is in future
HE sees only the GRANDOR of His own Master
Charan once said : ” I put them off with one excuse or another”
I have that on tape !
HE also had to do that
He said “You cannot explain about how procreation works to a toddler”
You use one excuse or another
Also : It makes often a lot of fun between adults
Hence the full time Humour of Gurinder
He tells Robin just what Robin can consume
If God wanted Robin and us to understand, . . . that was
already done via parabels like Jesus did
in Sar Bachan and so many books
Times are changing
In short time the whole earth will change and we ( disciples )
must be much more stable to endure what will come
Hence HE INSISTS
Don’t count on a saviour when you die – Do it yourself while living
There are no regions – Each one makes his own regions and they are there
Sound & Light – I must think a little about that
because so many are really and definately engulved /immerged already
I understand however that it has no sense to explain this
see all the scolding on this blog and sayings : No Sense
Why would he not treat Robbins as an stubborn ignoramous
Style changed somewhat; . . Not Tulsi s teachings, Tulsi who said
“The first passing here on this road reckognizing me as God Almighty
I will save up to in Sach Khand, . . . and he did ”
This Path is for the willing, . . the desiring, . . not at all for the Mocking
Those will be dragged later
Just my 2cts
Go Beas and ask few million how they feel with all these “fairy tails” which are a meager reflection of a superb giant unbelievable Truth
nobody will be able ever be capable to understand
They are not Lies, – Truth is much more overwhelming
Look around after inside and see the miracles happening or stay blind
1 – 1 for the Faqir now
but he should not have called names to the Saints with perhaps less schooling than he had
but immensely more Love, The Alpha and Omega of all what “exists”
777
Perhaps Gurinder will like
the last page of Lekh Puri’s book “Radha Soami Teachings” stating
Lekh is Ishwars father ( I had dinner at his house once )
“For this reason I have created Kal, . . because without Kal , Man is doomed and will not learn” ( paraphrased)
NOTHING HAS CHANGED
(still no on/off autocorrect – might be symbolic)

@777
your comment: “Why would he not treat Robbins as an stubborn ignoramous
This Path is for the willing, . . the desiring, . . not at all for the Mocking
Those will be dragged later”
Ha – you make me laugh, 777.
Really?
Why would he agree with the comments of an ignoramus?
He can very easily say “Sorry, pal, you are wrong.”
I have no power in that environment. He doesn’t have to give me a platform to speak, let alone agree with me.
Furthermore, the is saying those same things to others too.
He doesn’t say the teachings have changed.
He says they were always the same – its just we mis-understood.
He very clearly says that there is only the ONE.
He doesn’t take any credit for himself.
I said at one point “You are a living example of what you teach”
I was referring to the notion of doing without expectation, as he tells people to meditate but tells them not to analyse or have any expectations of achieving or reaching anywhere. Simply meditate because your master asked you to.
When people say it’s hard, his reply is that “You have to work towards it”.
His reply: “No – I am just doing this to please my master”
I said: “But your master is already pleased with you”
“No – I am still doing my duty.
No expectation is the ideal and we have to work towards that”
So he doesn’t take any credit. He says very clearly that “I am just a guide and a teacher”
The real issue is this:
Very few grasp what he is trying to say. They mis-interpret and misunderstand because it’s hard to let go of decades of the previous teachings.
I am not saying that nobody sees his inner form, or hears sound.
What I am saying is that it’s made up. It’s imagination. It’s a creation of your own mind. Just like your dreams seem real, but are actually created bu your mind.
They appear real – so do mystical experiences.
But only that is real which has no form.
In one of the satsangs the speaker said
“May the love of the form culminate in the love of the formless”
but remember – the formless cannot be seen.
it is what is called NIRGUN – and all the rest comes into the category of SARGUN.

@Osho
Long time no see
When I remember you were once bodyguard with Raneesh
You write
“What I am saying is that it’s made up. It’s imagination. It’s a creation of your own mind”
How do you know that dreams ( by famous imagination ) don’produce quantums somewhere
Yes THE ONE is an imaginator >> Does everything to accumulate LOVE
whatever the means
He has no other objects
The greatest mistake is to tell a child : “Just your imagination”
“Imagining” is how the Powers ( higher than Arch Angels) made Stuff ( big bangs and other necessities)
Some of them are now in human forms initiated by Gurinder
Should he explain that to you Sir
It is a good Path
without modifications
We generate with the Divine Simran that LOVE , the Boss needs so desperately
and then see that “We are That”
Makes me think of Theodore Sturgean with a story of a Planete consisting
of only Brain tissue, stolen all over the universe
Big war however but exciting to read
Take for Truth
that over a million of mostly analphabethic Initiated
hear and enjoy The Shabd 24/7 in of course many phases
Nice you had 20 minutes – Tried to hv His Darshan ? – between the words 🙂
Tell me
777
PS
Did sweet beautiful women come up there ?? ( in yr questioning ?)
( still no corrections)

Osho, you’re a gullible man. You keep telling us that the main point is that gurinder is SAYING that he’s just a normal guy…..who just happens to be the authority on this ONE you keep talking about.
Have you never listened to that scam artist Sadhguru? This is guruism 101 to always tell the people they’re wrong. If they believe in your books they’re wrong because the books are dumb. You think the master is enlightened? He’s not. You think he’s not enlightened? Well,we’re all enlightened we just don’t know it.
Gurus always present themselves as knowing more, even if that means saying they know less. The point is to always highlight a supposed flaw in the chelas perception.
I don’t care if he’s having fun as you say. Look at what he does instead of trying to justify what he says.

“Very few grasp what he is trying to say. They mis-interpret and misunderstand because it’s hard to let go of decades of the previous teachings.”
According to you.
Why do you think this is some sort of profound shift that we’re all too dumb to grasp? Nothing about RS is hard to grasp.
Seems more likely that a clever and rich business man and public speaker sees which way the wind is blowing and is trying to cover his bases.
He sells the books with his picture titled as god for the old people and the ones desperate for a savior, and during satsangs in the west he sells the ONE stuff (which is also vapid claptrap he has no authority to speak on) to those skeptical of mangods.
It’s not profound in the way you describe, but it is a big shift for the business. It’s the only way they can recruit young and educated people now. Even urban Indians have a bad feeling about gurus after so many years of bs.

@ Jesse – did you get a chance to look at a boxing training gym ?????

Hey Arjuna,
I havent made an appointment yet, but there’s a MMA gym I like but it’s a bit further than I want to drive.
Brock Lesnar and a few other big names have trained there before which is sort of cool.
The other option is that if I get to go to the country I’m hoping to go to, I’ll train in Russian SAMBO. In honor of Fedor of course.
How’s your deployment going, and what do you think about Gurinders new style of spirituality?

@Jesse
I don’t care if he is enlightened or not. Anyone can believe what they like.
All I am saying is that he is not claiming to be GIHF. Period. Instead he claims to be an ordinary man.
If anyone reads more into that (like false humility), that is their business.
I am not for or against him,
However, I am impressed.
He doesn’t have to make those statements.
It’s much easier to continue as before and tell people what they want to hear.
Doesn’t make me gullible as I have not suddenly become a follower!.
“I don’t care if he’s having fun as you say. Look at what he does instead of trying to justify what he says.” – Jesse
and what does he do?
I am not justifying anything. Just stating what he says.
You make of it what you will.

“All I am saying is that he is not claiming to be GIHF. Period. Instead he claims to be an ordinary man.”
An ordinary man, just like you and I, who just happens to sell pictures of himself on which he calls himself god and initiates people into supposed mystical secrets.
Yep. A totally regular guy.
People where I work do the same. Regular folks with websites and books and pictures completely dedicated to the notion of their godhood. That’s what normal people do, man.

By the way, just being the super regular guy that I am, I’ll be riding around on a golf cart later today, so if anyone wants to attempt to absorb spiritual power from me please feel free to prostrate before me and do the prayers which I’ve explicitly taught you to direct toward me.
Just regular everyday guy stuff. I’m not god or anything, you know.
Like everyone else, I simply believe that I have special prayers and I want you to pray to me. Just like your neighbor taking out the trash who also wants you to pray to him and receive his darshan while he takes out trash.
Normal everyday guy. Nothing weird at all about wanting people to pray to you and taking massive amounts of money from them.

@ Jessie – I got injured – and am back home for 6 weeks of rest and recovery – I knew I should not have cained all those samosas before we flew out lol. But In a way I’m grateful.
Wow a gym where Brock has trained that says a lot – go for it. With regard to any thing Russian that is going to be cool. I do Krav Maga – Israeli hand to hand fighting – saves me a few times.
With regard to this thread I’m not confused but lost I think – being a seeker after truth I can’t deal with trumpisms – in sat mat or else where. Tell me what there is – I don’t need mind games – if you catch my drift.

I wrote:
“Very few grasp what he is trying to say. They mis-interpret and misunderstand because it’s hard to let go of decades of the previous teachings.”
Jesse:
According to you.
Why do you think this is some sort of profound shift that we’re all too dumb to grasp? Nothing about RS is hard to grasp.
my reply:
I am not saying it’s a profound shift. I am saying that those who are used to the previous teachings will find a way to interpret what he says to fit in with their own ideas, rather than change their ideas.
The second part of your comment doesn’t make sense when you look at his financial situation.
He and his sons are rich. He doesn’t need more money.
And if he did, he would focus more on business not on satsangs.
How exactly does recruiting new young people into RSSB make him money?
If he was a businessman, he would stop making all those tours and just sit at Beas or another centre and focus instead on his business interests.
This is not about money and it’s not about making his life easier.
He also makes many comments that are not designed to make him more popular.
If the Christmas incident about the comment about naked girls is correct, that’s not a man who cares about his reputation.

He and his sons are rich. He doesn’t need more money.
Not anymore
but this also is ment to be
You said it : It’s not money
777

There are no costs, Osho. No labor, no taxes. He spends a couple thousand on a flight and likely 1mil or much, much more gets put in the donation boxes for his 40 minute speech. That’s easy cash and no accountability.
As for him not needing more money,you’re obviously not acquainted with wealthy people. They always need more. They didn’t get rich by meditating on “the ONE.”

Not for me,but it is confusing for some people.
What is truth now these days..:0)..
Not knowing is very nice..not being dependent on what someone else does or says.
Everyone has his/her very own path to walk and everyone walks differently..sometimes we meet here and there..Sometimes one can feel inspiration also..that is nice.
But we have to walk our own path.
You know how can one ”KNOW” the guru by never seeing him in regular life..??
Being still in ones very Own self or Self can always be done..everywhere and always.
Love can be felt also,we are in fact all ”children”..
Knowing that you do not know is Wisdom.
Being In the ”Love”gives peace and contentment,one can make that one’s sadhana..
”Being” ”Love” is a good point to focus on. In my idea(l)

This business of The One – is that not a Jet Li movie? I strongly suggest that all of you watch it – its better than wasting your time on here and discussing Star Trek or Star Wars (the One) on here!
I also believe that many of people on here must be on serious crack cocaine not see basics!!!!
Is he god or isn’t he!!!!!! Yes or no????? Have a cup of chai before answering!!!!!

Actually, GSD and his family are in a great deal of financial trouble currently. Very serious. They may wind up having to sell all their planes, helicopter, homes abroad, etc before all this financial legal trouble is over with. That’s stuff you can research and read about online from credible news sources. Perhaps it has given him time to reflect on how he needs to sell Sant Mat/RS to the people now.
GSD is no longer involved in the selection for initiation process. He just has a list of criteria (same as all the churches do) and if anyone meets that criteria then they are eligible for initiation. GSD doesn’t get involved with deciding anymore—door is pretty wide open. And quite honestly, the more initiated the more money in seva.
It’s a religion with a pinch of cult.

@777
And, 777, I’m going to share something with you in your language that only you can understand: HE needs LOVE so that HE can continue in the lottery… which FYI isn’t going to happen because THOSE powers are no longer interested in this place. Not going to happen…
LOVE IS LOVE. It’s complete within itself. Whether your an atheist, agnostic, monk or religious person it doesn’t matter. When this world burns out (just talking about pure science here). Then we will all cease to exist. We will all wind up in the same place regardless of beliefs. From a spiritual perspective, that’s the miracle of LOVE. From a logical perspective that’s just science.

@jesse
Jesse wrote:
“By the way, just being the super regular guy that I am, I’ll be riding around on a golf cart later today, so if anyone wants to attempt to absorb spiritual power from me please feel free to prostrate before me and do the prayers which I’ve explicitly taught you to direct toward me.”
What you are writing is simply untrue.
He never asks anyone to pray to him, or prostrate before him.
He even downplays the importance of darshan.
He drives around on the golf cart probably because it’s fun.
You can criticise anyone, no matter what they do.
If he stops giving darshan, then again people will criticise.
So he does the best thing – whatever he wants to do.
Anyone can make of it what they want to. Does he really care?
and why chould he?
I have the same going on with me. Some people like me having a conversation with him on the mic, others don’t.
When I had that long conversation, some people say “Give others time”
So I really don’t care what they think – I do as I please.
That’s the best policy. Please yourself.

@Jesse
“There are no costs, Osho. No labor, no taxes. He spends a couple thousand on a flight and likely 1mil or much, much more gets put in the donation boxes for his 40 minute speech. That’s easy cash and no accountability.
As for him not needing more money,you’re obviously not acquainted with wealthy people. They always need more. ”
The mission is not his money. There is accountability. Registered charities have to prepare accounts.
It’s not his personal money.
Sure there are some serious financial issues with his nephews, but I am sure they are not more than $250 Million.
It’s not about money.
If it was about money, he would deligate the satsang Q&A and focus on business.

Initiation is not that big a deal.
He has downplayed it many times, saying it means nothing.
what matters is realization.
He has said many times that it’s just so you have something to focus on.
actually it’s all irrelevant.
most advaita teachers have no initiation anyway.
These are just rituals from the past and he’s moving on.
Quite possible he may shave his beard and remove his turban one day.

God is in everyone of us.(Charan Singhji)
We can discover that in our own being.
Then one does not believe it,but knows it.
In everything that lives is the spark of god ,being ,conciousness.
It does not matter how we call it or him..
So.. one can live a life of sadhana to discover more and more the closeness or oness.
Focus on that is very beneficial.
Peace..and love..
Everybody can do that sadhana.
Everyone..
No initiation required.

“If he stops giving darshan, then again people will criticise.”
MAYBE HE COULD DISBAND THE ENTIRE CULT THEN INSTEAD OR PERPETUATING EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF MAN WORSHIP lol
My god, man. You’re hopeless.

“he has said…he has said…he has said…. he has said…”
Ok, Osho, so you still believe him to have some sort of secret esoteric god knowledge. Otherwise why are you constantly telling us what this man says as if it in itself holds some sort of importance? i have said a lot of things, yet nobody quotes me as if my sayings hold more meaning than what anyone else says.
Get out of the cult.

“The mission is not his money. There is accountability. Registered charities have to prepare accounts.
It’s not his personal money.”
According to you. Show me proof of this. In India, gurus personally using money from their “registered charities” is the norm. You know it and I know it, so why are you pretending like it’s not the easiest thing in the world for these guys to dip into the accounts.
Oddly enough, right when his nephew started getting deeper in trouble recently, I found more news of RS properties getting sold. Might be coincidence, but maybe “he said” something else.

@ Sarah. How do you know that GSD is in financial trouble? Just curious 🙂

Osho Robbins is a prime example of why I don’t believe in juries and why I think there should be rigorous testing to assure judges have far above average intelligence and far less inclination toward biases of emotionality
At this point, if what Gurinder says is heavily weighted in the sum of how we perceive him, then we’re calculating it totally wrong. We have zero reason to believe anything that man says, and all his actions are contra his claimed intentions.
Having fun? lol right. Being held captive by a bunch of weirdo spiritualists is definitely not “fun.” It’s either profitable in some way or its not.

@ Jesse – I agree with you on the money thing. In Punjabi culture if you have money you are a God, a titan, a Lord Protector and a rich man’s bottom’s is the Philosopher’s Stone (i.e. your poo is gold) lol.
Furthermore- men will throw their Daughters at you. lol
If on the other hand you are just ordinary, a soldier who fights to serve and protect so that the above mentioned people can sleep tight from hoodlums- you are considered just a turd.
Money is Guru! Its that simple folks- debate over…. lol

@S*
Peace..and love..
Everybody can do that sadhana.
Everyone..
No initiation required.
Haha maar jij bent hélemaal ingewijd geworden geraakt getorpedeerd
Woooow
Dus je kunt er eigenlijk niet over oordelen
OMG
Wat was je a echte Lover can Charab
Moet er vaak aan denken (wij)
Gewoon één worden met Shabd – en dan is het varkentje gewassen
77
en anders lukt het de volgende keer wel

Hi Osho
Nice to hear from you again. It’s interesting that you always seem to get ‘time at the mic’ and have quite long interactions with Gurinder. I remember years ago he said that he liked people to engage with him – you obviously are asking some very important questions. To have an answer that there is no individual soul is an answer I would also be happy to receive. What intrigues me is are you aware of the reactions of others present, when GS is sending ‘teachings’ broadsides into their midst? What happens after these sessions? Are people talking with you? Are they perturbed? Are they getting the point and waking up? I’m unclear as to whether GS is morphing his responses to suit today’s trends or what he says when engaged is actually a result of his own realisations.
That quote – the last piece of prose in Legacy of Love – ‘ May your love of the form culminate in the love of the formless’ points out that the formless is where its at. In my opinion, while there are indeed folk who are ‘there’, Sant Mat dogma locks most adherents within a mind/body construct, that maintains separation – the key incorrect belief (wrong view) being that of the ‘individual soul’. When is GS going to not just allude to this in Q&A sessions but have it clearly spelt out in revised teachings?

Tucson wrote:
What does that say about Charan Singh or Sawan? Or, what does that say about Gurinder? Who is the deceiver? All of the above? ? ?
….None and all of them. IMO all of them were looking for a better life. It is the disciples who are looking for answers to unanswerable questions and they have been taking advantage of it.
….Do you think they know anything more about your life than you?
….If you are grown up and still having brain, you must know what you should do, Eat, Drink, how you should lead your life, not accepting their hukum

@jesse
You obviously don’t know me very well.
I am not a follower of RSSB.
However I am quoting him because he is NOT offering false consolation.
You incorrectly think I am a believer.
He is waking people up now. And yes I am impressed by that.
Not to follow him.
You need to read my previous comments. I am one of his biggest critics.

@jesse
This is getting hilarious.
I am not in the RSSB cult any more than Brian is.
Seriously read some previous articles.
I know it appears that way from my comments.
But look beyond

@ Osho – then why go Haynes? Is that to satisfy your ego?

So many bitter comments. We were the desperate ones looking to find some kind of saviour. How lucky we are to have seen through the facade. I’m extremely happy that I no longer depend on some other being. We can be gods in our own right, but we have to get our act together and live an exemplary lifestyle. Its a challenge but doesn’t it feel enlivening to become a stronger being, not expecting anyone else to save us.
Then there are people who are suffering and are still in need of some kind of religion or a guru and if its just a path to follow and it helps them, so be it.
All you guys whinging and complaining and so affronted by being fooled. Just deal with it.
Osho says: He is waking people up now. And yes I am impressed by that.
Me too! Thanks Osho for sharing this info.

@Tim Rimmer
Good points – lets take them one at a time.
Tim:
It’s interesting that you always seem to get ‘time at the mic’ and have quite long interactions with Gurinder. I remember years ago he said that he liked people to engage with him – you obviously are asking some very important questions. To have an answer that there is no individual soul is an answer I would also be happy to receive. What intrigues me is are you aware of the reactions of others present, when GS is sending ‘teachings’ broadsides into their midst? What happens after these sessions? Are people talking with you? Are they perturbed? Are they getting the point and waking up? I’m unclear as to whether GS is morphing his responses to suit today’s trends or what he says when engaged is actually a result of his own realisations.
Myreply:
The long interaction only happens if he engages with me – and if I continue also. Either of us can end it anytime. But sometimes – it just gets more interesting that is doesn’t make sense to end it.
Well there cannot be an individual soul, as that would make a mockery of ONENESS. The reactions of others: When I am on the microphone, I engage fully and am unaware of anyone else present. As far as I am concerned – it’s a private interview between me and him.
What happens afterwards? Nothing. Nobody has ever approached me. The only reason can be that they do not understand or believe what he says. They have their own interpretation. That is what I meant when I wrote that it’s hard to understand, for them, because of their previous beliefs.
Most are too confused. Confused people tend to do nothing as they don’t know what to believe. Very few will get the point as they will find a reason to justify what he says but they will not let go of the previous teachings. They have too much invested.
It would take a much bigger dialogue for them to let go of the previous teachings.
It’s a bit like telling Christians that Jesus was not really the son of God, as God doesn’t have sex and has no wife so cannot have a child.
He clearly has a certain level of understanding to even be able to make the statements he is making.
Whether he has realized or not – I really don’t care. Some say that I have not realized. Who cares what people say?
Realization only happens when the understanding goes deep.
And there are many levels of realization constantly unfolding. It’s not black and white.
Tim:
That quote – the last piece of prose in Legacy of Love – ‘ May your love of the form culminate in the love of the formless’ points out that the formless is where its at. In my opinion, while there are indeed folk who are ‘there’, Sant Mat dogma locks most adherents within a mind/body construct, that maintains separation – the key incorrect belief (wrong view) being that of the ‘individual soul’.
My Reply:
I didn’t know it was from that book. But I DO know it’s a pointer to the truth. However, to uncover and unravel it – it requires more than just a passing statement.
FORMLESS means that it cannot end (or begin). It also cannot be seen. It’s not good, or bad or love or anything.
Also there cannot be anything else that exists besides the ONE FORMLESS thing. To claim there are individual souls makes no sense if you speak of the formless.
What you CAN SAY is that there APPEAR to be individual souls, just as there APPEAR to be waves in the ocean. Actually there is only the ocean and the waves are just a phenomena of the ocean. They have no separate existence.
The spiritual seeker wants to
BE SAVED,
BE ENLIGHTENED,
ARRIVE (in Sach Khand or wherever)
GET GRACE (so he can meditate and then be saved)
MEET THE MASTER (so the master can take him to his eternal home forever)
All these make the disciple HUNGRY and GREEDY, looking for THAT which is always FAR AWAY.
BabaJi is saying – It’s all HERE, and it’s NOW.
Hmmm…. Thinks the disciple….. He must mean ONCE I MERGE.
So the duality continues, no matter what he says.
Osho was once asked, “What do I do in the MEANTIME? Until I realize?”
His reply was, “What meantime – I am saying there is no MEANTIME, but you keep on postponing, saying, “one day, after I do this and that…..”
BabaJi, tells everyone that the method is meditation. But when questioned in depth, it turns out that meditation means to sit quietly and turn within and discover WHO I AM!
He still talks about the SHABD – but that just represents the ONE.
The idea of DOING also keeps us locked firmly in duality, as the act of doing implies there must be an “I” that is perfoming the DOING.
Tim:
When is GS going to not just allude to this in Q&A sessions but have it clearly spelt out in revised teachings?
My reply:
God knows.
And he’s (God) not saying.
Joking aside, My guess is – He won’t – ever.
But I could easily be wrong. I often am.
Even if He does, it won’t make an iota of difference.
You know why?
Because the teachings will never set anyone free.
In zen there is a saying
“All teachings are false, except the ones that set you free”
Teachings don’t do it, as they require belief.
Beyond teachings is the truth that can only be pointed to and alluded about.
It cannot be said, instead you have to discover it for yourself.

@arjuna
Why go to Haynes?
You mean you don’t know why I go there?
I go there for light entertainment, it’s fun.
I get bored sitting at home all the time.
Just as God got bored and decided to create the world for his entertainment.

Yes or no????
Hééé Guys , now that most ears are open
Try to sit with your backbobe super straight
vertical and don’t sit on easy chairs or your bed
Replace each coming thought with simran
before it glues itself
It Will work
Bye
7

@Jen
Nice comment.
I agree.
To each, his own.
Those who need to be saved – he offers something, but he slowly takes it away as they get stronger.
But he lets them all go at their own pace.
and Jen, you have a very valid point.
Those who follow a spiritual path or a religion – went of their own accord.
The had a need that the religion or path fulfilled.
Slowly they may grow stronger and not need it.
But there is no need to be bitter.
I too followed it for many years – but I am not bitter at all.
It was necessary at the time.
so I am grateful, not bitter.

I’ve known about you for years, Osho. You had a website and tried starting your own cult on youtube, and it was hilarious.
You’re the one missing the point I’m making, which is that the strongest pillar of RSSB is the central human figure who has all the answers, even if saying he doesn’t have all the answers is his new amazingly spiritual answer. Religious figures have been playing this game for centuries.
The books going back years say explicitly that a “master” would never call himself that, and acts like a normal humble man. Julian Johnson harped on that idea repeatedly, so it’s no surprise that guru golfcarts keeps saying what everyone before him said, and what he’s expected to say.
“He is waking people up now.”
Wuuuut?
Doesn’t seem that way to me. Has RSSB closed down? Are they still printing books calling him god? He’s in charge of all that stuff. You seem to always assume the best intentions in the man, believing everything he says. For a supposed non-believer, that’s pretty weird ESPECIALLY since he’s been inches away from serious corporate scandals involving severe dishonesty and deception.
I believe nothing he says and won’t until he gives satsangs dealing specifically with his corporate corruption and invites third party accountants on stage with him to discuss the exact use of RSSB funds.
A lot of non-Indians wouldn’t know, but many big temples have cameras and bank employees in the places where money is counted now. You can watch the videos online in some cases. As far as I know RSSB has never even hinted at being transparent with its finances outside of 2 satsangis signing off on donations at the local level. RSSB always leaves financial control up to scandal godbro, at his command,so it’s not wise to accept what he says at face value.

@arjuna
Because he has to help bail out Shivinder and Malvinder, his nephews as he has been doing business with them and they lost millions… billion+. Since GSD has a reputation to protect he has to bail them out which will take most all of his money. But it’s not like he’s going to be penniless—he’ll do alright, just have to live a little less luxuriously. Oh… merciful are the gods…
Anyway, it’s for the better. He probably doesn’t really care that he won’t be “rich” anymore because it’s not like his lifestyle will be dramatically affected. He might travel less—but I think he’s getting tired anyway… I think he’s getting somewhat tired of it all. I have like 6 major planets in Libra—so for those of you who actually believe there’s anything real in the stars, I can often see things from many different angles—different possibilities and it doesn’t mean I’m flip floppy (not exactly anyway).
On the one hand GSD has a lot of things—great family, love and adoration from literally millions of people, sevadars waiting on him hand and foot. But in reality he’s got a sh*t job. No wonder he says he would have wanted to be a rapper instead. LOL He could have had the same lifestyle (if he had talent) without all the BS of being a guru. His life is amazing and awesome AND sucks at the same time. He’s totally trapped. Just one way of looking at it…

Jesse, I know you are here to challenge and stir things up and thats ok, as you know I’m quite fond of you.
As to Gurinder he is just another human being who is playing a role according to his family traditions. How do you know if he is enjoying it or not. What does it matter anyway. I could beat myself up thinking that I made the wrong choice in becoming a satsangi but no, like Osho, I am grateful. I have learnt a lot. I needed that Path and now I have more inner strength, like I’m a different person now and we are here to grow and learn and change our ideas and opinions and evolve.
If we believe in reincarnation and karma, does Gurinder have both good and bad karma? As Sarah says, “His life is amazing and awesome AND sucks at the same time. He’s totally trapped.” As we all are, struggling in this world of duality.

Sarah writes,…..”His life is amazing and awesome AND sucks at the same time. He’s totally trapped. Just one way of looking at it…”
Me: how true, but isn’t that the trap we all share, from the old Indian Ladies living at the Dera sweeping leaves with Straw Brooms to every one in between, including you and I.
Regardless of how much we have now, we all will take the same amount with us at death.
But in my case, my ethics and morals dictates what I will allow my self to do to others, that might effects their lives. I really have tried to treat others as I would like to be treated, and still do.
I can’t imagine ever allowing my self to do what GSD is, and has been doing since 1990 that has taken so many people hostage. Especially, when he does not even teach Sant Mat. He has fooled thousands in to doing free Seva and lining his Donation Boxes.
Ishwar Puri is looking better the more Gurinder becomes exposed.
But even Ishwar’s unorthodox Initiations raises too many Red Flags.
Rajinder has his own Helicopters, and Airplane as well, and has a much larger following in his Family Business than Ishwar has. He just opened a large new Building Conference Center in Chicago. But at least, Rajinder Initiates Seekers in to the Light & Sound. He works with each Initiate until they get a taste of “ The Juice.
Gurinder hoards any Juice stored at RSSB and draws Interest in it.
😇
Jim Sutherland

@Jesse
I am just giving you my perpective.
Why does RSSB need to close down?
Some people need it – where will they go?
I was once a follower.
Better than closing it down – is to change it to what awakens people.
That appears to be the new direction.
Whether it happens or how long it takes – I have no idea.
It’s not going to happen in a day.
You are welcome to your perspective. But that is all it is – your viewpoint.
Doesn’t make it true.
I just take him as a man. I am not saying he is perfect.
But he certainly seems to be doing his best to take the organisation in
a better direction than when he inherited it.

(1) You are right, there is no journey because you are already there and you just have to realise it.

The journey is and has always been one of awareness itself.
A mystic says “we’re not soul drops trying to merge back in
the ocean. We’re already merged, we have only contracted our
awareness and forgotten it.” The journey’s metaphorical.

(2) You are correct in saying there are no regions.
(3) I have never read the Sar Bachan and what it states there is just a story, not literal. None of those regions or the lords of the regions exist.

Beyond time and space, there is no descriptive language.
Intellect fails us. Fantastic stories, colorful metaphors
are just hints of what’s there.

(4) There is only the ONE. There is no individual soul. So you don’t actually merge back. You are already there.

With contracted awareness, you feel you’re a “soul drop”.
When you fully awaken, you find out you never left the
ocean. There was no long journey through “vast regions”
to get home. You had only to reclaim your scattered,
diminished attention running outside, turn it back inside,
and wake the hell up 🙂

(5) Don’t focus on the physical master. I am only here to clarify. I am just a human being like you. I cannot forgive sins. I cannot erase karmas.

The physical form of the Master is just a temporary phenomenon.
It goes away. It’s the form inside which has agency and power.

(6) Meditation just means to quieten the mind and turn inwards and let go and realise who you are

Running after phenomena, reacting to the mind’s interruptions,
analysing with our diminished intellect will not awaken us from
the dream. On the other hand, the mystic path of letting go,
mindfulness, turning inward are steps in the right direction.

(1) You are right, there is no journey because you are already there and you just have to realise it.

The journey is and has always been one of awareness itself.
A mystic says “we’re not soul drops trying to merge back in
the ocean. We’re already merged, we have only contracted our
awareness and forgotten it.” The journey’s metaphorical.

(2) You are correct in saying there are no regions.
(3) I have never read the Sar Bachan and what it states there is just a story, not literal. None of those regions or the lords of the regions exist.

Beyond time and space, there is no descriptive language.
Intellect fails us. Fantastic stories, colorful metaphors
are just hints of what’s there.

(4) There is only the ONE. There is no individual soul. So you don’t actually merge back. You are already there.

With contracted awareness, you feel you’re a “soul drop”.
When you fully awaken, you find out you never left the
ocean. There was no long journey through “vast regions”
to get home. You had only to reclaim your scattered,
diminished attention running outside, turn it back inside,
and wake the hell up 🙂

(5) Don’t focus on the physical master. I am only here to clarify. I am just a human being like you. I cannot forgive sins. I cannot erase karmas.

The physical form of the Master is just a temporary phenomenon.
It goes away. It’s the form inside which has agency and power.

(6) Meditation just means to quieten the mind and turn inwards and let go and realise who you are

Running after phenomena, reacting to the mind’s interruptions,
analysing with our diminished intellect will not awaken us from
the dream. On the other hand, the mystic path of letting go,
mindfulness, turning inward are steps in the right direction.

@Jim
What you say may be true but haven’t we all suffered enough? I’m just saying that there are two powers in this creation — Justice/Karma and Love which is forgiveness and mercy. We are finally at a stage in the evolution of the soul where the soul which is love is finally stronger than karma. I guess what I’m saying is I’ve spent my whole life fighting injustices and now I’m just fighting the harshness of karma because none of us can get out of this hell until the Soul defeats Kal. And all it had to do for that to happen was to stop believing the lies. The biggest lie is that we have to sufffer and suffer continuously for the things we’ve done. Now there is a great enlightenment—everyone gets to go home. Home. Forgiveness is the only way. “Kal” creates the law of karma but the Soul has defeated Kal with the coming enlightenment that forgiveness and mercy are more powerful.
I realize this sounds a lot like “crazy talk”. But it’s true.
Yes, you wouldn’t have chosen the same but the tyrannny is over. Forgiveness is the new law.

Real RSSB SatGurus have endless serendipities plus endless Shabd plus total Exquise Darshan
A total package of hyper LOVE
When we here have it, . . . I can’t imagine what he experiences
And it grows exponentially
There is so much LOVE available in the Universes and on Top
From that he gives some to the needy
$s are just in the karma
Charan initiated us but we see Gurinder too
I admit that he is only aware of that on a need to know basis
Look in my comment how I see the Saints
A Cluster ofGalaxies is paling, compared with their dust
OK “makes no sense people” come on
777

Osho, I guess for people with a background in guru worship it’s not that big of a deal, but for westerners there is something very weird about a man pretending to be a god. In a roundabout way even Gurinder has mentioned it when criticizing westerners and our “concepts,” though he obviously doesn’t understand the cultural impact his religion has.
Unlike Indians who lead amazingly unstructured lives in many ways, but especially in legal and spiritual matters, this mindset doesn’t apply to the western mind. It f**** people up actually to hear a set of rules and regulations, and then be told “lol jk. don’t listen to that stuff” as godbro does. It’s like psychological trauma.
I didn’t get to know a whole lot of satsangis, but those I did know and who talked about their families seemed to always have something negative to report. It was never something that contributed to harmony, but rather served as something divisive. The satsangis always felt they’d struck gold and needed to convert their family, and the family always thought the satsangi was a crazy person who’d adopted backward indian beliefs.
So everyone can act like this is all innocent, but to me it’s not. It’s a destructive force that only makes a random family in a foreign country really rich and powerful. We have an already decaying moral order and we’re verging on much worse things. The last thing anyone here needs is to join a weird hindu cult.
TLDR version, Gurinder is a n assclown who has taken a lot of innocent and naive people for a ride and his cult and the many others like it have done irreparable damage to my local culture . Curse him

Good morning Jesse hows your Krishna going?

So, if Gurinder actually said,
“there is no journey, you’re already there, Sar Bachan is just a story, there is only the One, there are no regions, there is no individual soul, he is just a regular human being who can’t forgive sins and erase karmas, meditation is just to quiet the mind”
..then he just talked himself out of a job. He said it. It’s all BS. That’s it.

@ Sarah – interesting answer and thank you for replying.
@ Osho- loved your answer to my question as to why you go Haynes. Straight to the point and yes why not God created all this show – why should we not enjoy it too😀
@ Jim – morning Sir – your emails make me think and not many people have that effect on me ! Hope you are well and enjoying your 🚲 bikes.
@ Jesse – got to say it brother: I loved ie you and you can be my wingman any day!!!

@ Jesse
“@ Jesse – got to say it brother: I loved ie you and you can be my wingman any day!!!“
Typo again !!! I loved the way you write and you can be my wingman anyway!!!!

To 777
I do not know who you are.
I was very much in love with my guru idd.
Also struggles about that.
It was very good being on the path.
There was also an other side of the coin..
I do’nt want talk here about privat things.
Thanks
s*

@tucson “he just talked himself out of a job”
Exactly. He is no longer interested in offering false consolation.
Instead, He is leading people slowly towards the truth.
Yes he hasn’t totally let go of the old teachings, but instead has just introduced the new.
So naturally people are confused.
In fact the first two days of the national satsang it was almost like “ok – all get back on the original train”
I can well understand how people can call me a liar and say that nothing has changed and that I am making it all up.
On those two days, there was just the occasional hint of the new teachings, and mostly it was all the traditional teachings.
He only replies to the question that is asked. For instance if someone asks about the inner experience, he will not say “It’s all made up” but instead will give a little guidance and then say, “Don’t analyse too much and don’t calculate, just let it happen”
He says two things very clearly
(1) You MUST meditate
(2) Don’t have any expectations. Don’t try to reach anywhere. Just relax and let go.
The second part changes everything, but in a subtle way.
It’s like giving a task and taking away the fruit of the action. The fruit (the result) was the REASON for the action. Now how will you act?
I come for dinner and I say, “I am so hungry, can you make me some food”
If you are friends or family, you will gladly make it.
The reason is that I said I was hungry. So you want to solve that issue, by giving me food.
Instead of eating the food, I place it in the dustbin, without saying anything. I don’t say there was anything wrong with it. I just do the action of binning the food.
I then say “Hey, can I have some more?”
At that point, most people will say “No, you idiot, you can’t!”
Why? because the action of making food for me had an end in mind. The end was that I eat the food and say “thank you” and you feel good.
But I have taken the fruit of the action away. There is now no reason to act.
He is also taking the fruit of the action away by saying
“There are no regions, no separate self, no sach khand to reach, but still do your meditation.”
If you know that the meditation will bear fruit and get you there – you can at least try to do it. You have a reason and a motive.
But he has taken away the reason and the motive.
Now how can you meditate?
So he then changes the meaning of meditation to “Just relax, let go, and turn inwards and see who you really are. Nothing”
Far out.
This is becoming zen like now.
No goals, no seeking, no purpose.
and the one reason he keeps?
Do it because your master asked you to. Do it for love only.

777, I realize your afraid to address me LOL, but the RS Masters never stress the importance of grace and forgiveness. They could learn a lot from the example of Jesus.

@ osho – if there is nothing – how do you explain Dr Eben Alexander – a renowned neurosurgeon with zero belief in God – let’s repeat that – zero belief in God who becomes ill and is declared brain dead – and has experiences beyond this world whilst he is brain dead -the doctors confirmed he was brain dead ? His book Proof Of Heaven. Google him!
Personally I believe Master is testing us all. And some of us will pay a very heavy price indeed. But I can’t prove that nor would I if I could. But my gut feelings have saved me many times on the battlefield as opposed to my intellect.
There is something in us that works beyond the mind and brain – what I do not know.
The Gods or creators are probably chuckling to themselves – look at these children in this blog debating something they cannot even fathom.
Just a thought and as I explained I would rather go with my gut feeling as opposed to any blogger on here. Any day 😀

@ Sarah – hello ! You are up early

@arjuna
That’s what I mean by nothing. Dreams.
There are many thousands perhaps millions of people claiming to have seen and been to the regions. Yet he says there are no regions.
So what does that mean?
He is talking about ultimate reality, enlightenment.
You are talking about an experience.
An experience can only happen in duality,
Because two are present. The experiencer and the experience.
Ultimately there is only the one
You can also call it zero or nothing.
Just words.
So phenomena happens just like dreams happen.
When you wake up in the morning you say
“It was only a dream” meaning it was not real.
Of course it seemed real, at the time.
Only after waking up can you say it wasn’t real.
So yes phenomena happens. People see light and regions and master inside.
But it’s only as real as the dream.
So it happens but it’s not real
Maharaja Charan Singh says that we are not real.
“How can you be real?” He asks
“You are here today and gone tomorrow”

@ Osho – thank you that was beautifully.
You explain very well – are you a teacher or lecturer if I may ask?

Hi OSHO,…good to see you posting here again. I was beginning to think you must have joined another Cult and was stuck in a Black Hole!
Reading your recent comments regarding your Haynes Sat Sang and playing Chess with Gurinder again, regardless of your denying you no longer are a Satsangi interested in RSSB, to me, at least, your comments show that Charan’s Bulldozer Chain is attached to your neck, as well as all of the rest of his Initiates. You can run, but you can not hide, because he has his Clone planted and rooted in your Third Eye as well as in Brian’s, Lane’s and mine! HaHa
You write,….”So phenomena happens just like dreams happen.
When you wake up in the morning you say
“It was only a dream” meaning it was not real.
Of course it seemed real, at the time.
Only after waking up can you say it wasn’t real.
So yes phenomena happens. People see light and regions and master inside.
But it’s only as real as the dream.
So it happens but it’s not real
Maharaja Charan Singh says that we are not real.
“How can you be real?” He asks
“You are here today and gone tomorrow”
As long as I can remember, people who believe they know what’s going on in the world have said that we humans only are able to See 10% of what is real, while the remaining 90% is beyond our human sensory abilities to see the real 90% that we are blind to, because we do not have the Bio Equipment to access what’s real.
But that is exactly why the Bible quotes God as challenging us to TEST Him, by TITHING , so He can open the Windows of Heaven for us to see!
Of course, the TITHE to open the Windows of Heaven is 10% of our time, seeking HIM in Meditation.
So, in reality, the 10% of impermanent people, places and things we humans experience with our nine Gates of Sensory Organs are NOT real.
But the 90% of the Light, Sound, Visuals that you, Chand, and other Oneness Advaitists say is unreal, is actually the Real Deal.
But, that Real Stuff can only be accessed while TITHING, i.e. while in Meditation.
Any even after we access any thing inside, we are still in Duality.
Cheers,
Jim Sutherland,…..a Real person, with a Real Name,…in Duality

@arjuna
I am no teacher, but I have gone through stuff
That changed my perspective
So this is not theory

@OSHO,…here is my answer to your Oneness Speculation. Where have I gone wrong, if I am now ONE?
“i” am NOT God! I never was, am not now, and never will be!
“i” am not a drop of the Ocean, WHO IS God. “i” am a creation of God, The Ocean, that unlike God, Who had no beginning, Alpha, nor will have no end, Omega, HAS had a beginning, when God, the Ocean created “me”, the Soul that now temporarily manifests as the identity of Jim Sutherland.
That created Soul, had a beginning, but it has no end. It is now Eternal since creation, but has, and will continue to manifest through unending multitudes of impermanent, changing, Vehicles of Consciousness , using Containers, manifesting in The Wheel of 84, The Hindu Charausi, i.e. 8,400,000 possible physical Species in the Universe.
The Created Soul that has manifested and lived in The Wheel of 84 since being created by God, from Amoebas to the present Container Temple of Jim Sutherland, and will continue to manifest in future unknown Containers, for Eternity, is unknown by “me”, the Soul , and is only known by The Creator, Who is Christ, Who is also known by other Names and Identities, such as Anami Purush,
Radhasoami, God, Source, Universe, etc, with a List that is unending, depending on individual imagination.
“i”, the Soul presently manifesting as Jim, will NEVER completely merge with God, or become a drop merging back to the Ocean, as Vedanta Advaitist teachers mistakingly teach, because “i” was never the Ocean, or God, “i” was only an individual creation by God, that became a drop in the Mind of God, as Kal was also created by God, to become Universal Mind, the Agent of ALL minds, including not only mine, but every mind in The Wheel of 84, Charausi!
Any Drop that merges in the Ocean, is annihilated, as far as individual duality is concerned, and commits Spiritual suicide by claiming to be God in human form!
No doubt, God is in all of us, as Christ, and We are in Him, but will always remain in Duality for Eternity as created Individual Souls have lived in Charausi progressing to present, with out ever being sentenced to Annihilation by God as drops merging completely back to the Ocean.
God has a Chain of Command He uses to draw his created Souls back to back and enjoy His Ocean of Glory, with out annihilating Duality.
Spiritual Seekers are those created souls who have tired of experiencing the adventures in the Play of Consciousness, and are becoming detached from the impermanent enticements of the Sensory pleasures of the material world of Duality.
But, escaping the world of Duality, permanently, with out being annihilated, as taught by Vedanta Advaitists, is impossible, because according to the Bible, only God Alone knows all the secrets, and the Prophets, Masters, Avatars, only know the secrets God reveals to each of them, in Duality, as individuals.
If this is not so, there would be no secrets, and we would all know each other’s thoughts and desires, actions, histories, since bring created, and we don’t, NONE of us, including Masters.
I consider “my” self, as the present culmination of all of the same Soul that has lived numerous past lives in Charausi since being created by God , a projection of my Higher Soul Self, that is now a Multidimensional Consciousness, with the present identity of Jim Sutherland, now in Duality, as having started in Duality at the time “i” was created by Christ, i.e. God, Anami Purush.
“I” will Eternally remain in Duality, as long as Consciousness of awareness is retained, but have been given the Keys of Knowledge , which is the Technique of The Science of The Soul, which may be used to escape the horrors and suffering of Charausi , when ever “i” choose to use the Prescription administered by Master to rest in the Glory of Bliss in Anami.
Drops never merge in the Ocean with out becoming annihilated.
But, Drops may sail on The Ocean enjoying the Sights, Sounds, Lights, Bliss, by taking refuge in various Cruise ships, which are Masters of various Lineages or Cruise lines.
The Masters are the Cruise Ships escorting Spiritual Seekers on Adventures enjoyed and experienced ON, the Ocean, but not IN the Ocean, unless those souls manifesting in human forms desire to become souls in Aquatic Sea living forms.
Individual Saints, or Spiritual Seekers, on individual Paths of Duality, seek God by sailing the God Ocean Ocean sailing on the Surface in Kayaks, Canoes, Rafts, Yachts, err.
But Masters, are the Cruise Ships, that escort and ferry Seeker Souls through the Multidimensional Planes of Consciousness on the Ocean of Christ.
I consider my self, the soul that is acting as Jim, to be a Booking Agent, for all Spiritual Masters escorting and ferrying Spiritual Seekers to experience the adventures on the Ocean of Christ, i.e. Anami Purush.
My Booking Fees are FREE, as my payment and rewards from Christ are held in Trust for me, in The Book of Life, Archived in the Highest Pinocle of Causal Mind, where the Avatars of Christ all reside together and Eternally remain to carry out the Plans of God.
Kal, i.d. Satan, is Time, in Duality, which is annihilation in the Ocean , as drops are obviously, timeless, also sails and rides the Ocean of Christ as Battle Ships, Submarines, loaded with demolition to annihilate Souls in Duality wanting to enjoy the Play of Consciousness with out loosing Awareness or Individuality.
Kal’s Agents are Vedanta Adventist Oneness Preachers.
Booking Agents for Christ know who they are, and recognize them right away, so are enemies of Kal.
Caveat Emptor! ( let the Seeker Beware )
Jim Sutherland

Bob, that’s a strange question. Im not a huge fan of the Mahabharat, the Gita or the Bhagvatam, though parts of the Bhagvatam are really surreal and fun to think about.
If you know of some other popular Krishna stories I might like, give me the names and I’ll tell you how my Krishna is going.
Contrary to what some may think, I’m not an atheist and I do enjoy “spiritual” things. Just not the belief aspect of them.

Arjuna wrote: “Personally I believe Master is testing us all. And some of us will pay a very heavy price indeed. ”
–Why does the master or God have to test us at all? What do they need from us that they don’t already have? What do they care? It sounds sadistic really.. ” Hey, let’s poke and prod these lame, imperfect souls and make ’em squirm a bit. Then we’ll let ’em in. Gotta have a little fun. Can’t make it too easy. Eternity is a long time. Gotta keep things interesting.”
This concept of a God that has rules and requirements which, if not met, will result in retribution and misery.. crop failure, the plague, a cockroach infestation, zits, sword thrusts, pin pricks, whatever, sounds creepy to me, something out of a horror movie. What kind of loving, kind God is that? Could God be an asshole? If you believe this stuff it looks that way. Sounds downright Medieval to me… rules designed by the priest class in the name of God to keep the lowly serfs in line and to prevent rebellion.
I think Gurinder is doing a service by trying to remove this kind of mentality. I’ll give him that.
But I can’t prove that nor would I if I could.

Jesse do you like
dzogchen?

Sarah said:
“What you say may be true but haven’t we all suffered enough? I’m just saying that there are two powers in this creation — Justice/Karma and Love which is forgiveness and mercy. We are finally at a stage in the evolution of the soul where the soul which is love is finally stronger than karma. I guess what I’m saying is I’ve spent my whole life fighting injustices and now I’m just fighting the harshness of karma because none of us can get out of this hell until the Soul defeats Kal. And all it had to do for that to happen was to stop believing the lies. The biggest lie is that we have to sufffer and suffer continuously for the things we’ve done. Now there is a great enlightenment—everyone gets to go home. Home. Forgiveness is the only way. “Kal” creates the law of karma but the Soul has defeated Kal with the coming enlightenment that forgiveness and mercy are more powerful.”
Well…yes. And one of the ways to defeat Kal through the power of one’s soul is as the poet Rumi put it:
“How come, love said to me, you come around but don’t stop by to see me. I’m the one you want to see.
“I’m your house and your food. I’m the one who caught your heart. If you try to take your soul away from me, your soul becomes worthless.
“As long as you want only leaves, you’ll never know the fruits. As long as you indulge yourself with your own charms and graces, you’ll never know our charms and graces.
“In every moment you are born anew. But the crowd of people don’t know that.”
Translation by Ergin and Johnson

Jim said:
“I consider my self, the soul that is acting as Jim, to be a Booking Agent, for all Spiritual Masters escorting and ferrying Spiritual Seekers to experience the adventures on the Ocean of Christ, i.e. Anami Purush.”
Just so I’m clear, for you the term “Christ” and the term “Anami Purush” are referring to the same phenomenon?
Do you make any distinction between the two? You know…right hand of God and all that?

Time to explain again SOLISPISM or SOLOPISM
Better than in WIKI
———
LOVE is an Urge to do good to another entity
———
This Being beyons space_time is LOVE and needs more of it
So It creates by imagination Mr Zaeatrustra, Adam, whatever jevaa , to
produce more Love ( First makes some Angels for the time_space_constructs )
Amnesia is mandatory, and see . . . yes more Love comes out
Szzing this is a good idea that works , he can’t stop
and does it again
YOU are alone and We all around you don’t exist
When your Love/Compassion Love Output is at a reasonable level , YOU will remember
Rememberence happens in a 7 chakras body
We must constantly train ( meditation or thought_less_ness ) to
survive the Grandeur , the Exaltic Energy of the Maker during rememberence
The above applies to every piece of consciousness in the universes
There are a xillion other of these Methods and Holy tricks
If U don’t agree, you know now where to complain : INSIDE YOU
Saints are guys who remember and try to hide bult can t help helping
the willing with their Power
Gurinder didn’t delete the instructions @initiation
Just go sitting with a super streched backbone which will help
Have Fun and be happy
777

Could God be an Asshole? – Tucson
That would make a great title for a book.
The god that is depicted in virtually all religions does appear to exhibit assholic tendencies.
The god of spirituality is better. He doesn’t have any attributes at all.
A bit like the nowhere man of the Beatles.
So take your pick
Which god do you prefer
An asshole or a non existent one?

Dear Sarah,
I like very much what you say about forgiviness..I see this as sooo very true..
Ii is my gut feeling!
Instead of Kal and chaurasi,there is Love and Forgiveness..
I have had nightmare psychoses because of the teachings of santmat really!
Fear psychoses.
And Master could not help at all.
That became a trauma in me.
Vipassana meditation helped me out..really..
That waked me up and I got grip in my very own feelings and idea’s again.
I dare to mention that here now,because i felt ashamed of the psychotic periods especially after being in Dera.
It made me very fearfull this old santmat teachings.
Babaji was later better in his approach to the teachings.
Maharaji was loving from some points,but pfff ..also very untouchable..very far from the people in some way..
So I have had beautiful times full of love and joy..but I could be very fearfull too.
That was very lonely also..very lonely..
s*

@ Tucson – ever been to a war zone????
What one man will do to another in war is beyond your imagination – we have not moved far from medieval times mate!!! Bar that standards of living are much better etc. So why should not God punish us or get His lieutenants to do that!
What I stated was my opinion – like or lump it 😀

No, Bob. I’m not really into Tibetan religious things. I had a lot of secular relationships with Tibetans in the past but always found their spirituality to be far too invested in absurd rituals.
Like every year during Losar doing 100,000 spins of a prayer wheel for the Dalai Lama’s health. Seemed like a weird way to accomplish a goal for someone else.

Jesse i think you are wise and i think you are older than 60yo..i just don’t know, but you seem more experienced man…

I’m 37 and anything but wise, Bob. My life is full of unforced errors.
But thanks anyway. Wisdom is a goal any sane person hopes to reach.

@Arjuna
We have seen the last 10 minutes of the movie
“The Red Thin Line ”
spoken by:
Sean Penn
He should comment some here
77

@arjuna
No master is testing you.
Neither is god.
Both have better ways to entertain themselves.
So relax.
“How do you know? “
In the question that sets you free.
You have beliefs,
Then you have a very strong belief that your beliefs are the truth.
In actual fact you know nothing.
Your beliefs are gathered from unreliable sources
You were told things and you thought they were true because you trusted the source.
They are not true.
The baba of Beas is releasing everyone from their own created traps.
How?
By asking “how do you know?”
Example
“How do you know I am a real master?
I could be the biggest fraud”
He makes off the cuff comments so you remove him from the pedestal you have put him on.
He is not interested in your worship.
From what I have seen he creates doubt in the followers. He gets them to question
His having fun also serves a purpose. He is non serious.
Because it’s all a big cosmic joke anyway

Osho Robbins never asks himself the question that he asks others to ask themselves.
How do you know what Gurinder Singh Dhillon’s intentions are Osho? You make a lot of claims about what he *actually* means when he says things, and why he does what he does. How do you know?
You obviously haven’t read anything about cults ever in your life. Creating doubt in minds is a religious leader’s #1 job, and yes that includes doubt about the “master.” The point is to ALWAYS make the one asking the question wrong.
As I said before, listen to that retard named Sadhguru answer questions. He’s an amazingly deceptive and horrid piece of human garbage, and has perfected the art of manipulation. “Is the sky blue, Sadhguru?” “hahahaha, no. You see, you have all these mental images about what is real and unreal because you’ve yet to realize your true self……………… (an hour later) and yes the sky is blue.”
It makes far more sense to think that this is what Gurinder is doing rather than your belief that he’s still a guru, but an even better one cause now he’s guiding you toward an even better enlightenment.
You’re still a satsangi, bro. And you’re still under that conman’s spell.

Hi Osho
Thanks for your responses to my present and past posts. I like your take on things and willingness to say how it is for you.
I still find it strange that after a 20 minute convo with GS discussing and seemingly stating the new (old but previously hidden?) truths of Sant Mat, that none of the many thousands of folk present came up to you and said something like – ‘Wow that definitely makes more sense to me now – I’ve had a gut feeling it was actually the case and I can see how the old teachings were acting like a scaffolding, but it’s time to remove them..’
Re teachings yes I agree with you that most will act to strengthen a belief system and as is pointed out by other teachings – they all have to be dropped including holding onto concepts about the guru also.
Returning to what you were saying to Arjuna re GS creating doubt in the followers – this indeed seems the case for many posters here, however we are a tiny % compared to the thousands of apparently ‘unconscious’ devotees present (but not fully?:-)) at your discussion described. Is there a reason for them not appearing to get it? Or am I just judging them, based on my own ignorance?
What you posted in response to Tucson really resonated with me –
@ Osho:
‘But he has taken away the reason and the motive.
Now how can you meditate?
So he then changes the meaning of meditation to “Just relax, let go, and turn inwards and see who you really are. Nothing”
Far out.
This is becoming zen like now.
No goals, no seeking, no purpose.
and the one reason he keeps?
Do it because your master asked you to. Do it for love only’.
This plays the love card. So loaded yet I would venture to say this strikes at the ‘heart’ of the matter.

Joe asks Jim,…”Just so I’m clear, for you the term “Christ” and the term “Anami Purush” are referring to the same phenomenon?”
Jim: Yes, my belief and understanding is, Christ and Anami Purush are both The Supreme Lord. ( Formless )
How ever, the Bible Christ is much more familiar and friendly to me than Anami Purush, which would be the more familiar to Punjabi Indians , familiar and initiated in to the Radhasoami Religion.
I had Christ in me, The Hope of Glory, before I ever heard about Sant Mat or Anami Purush.
Hope that clarifies,
Jim Sutherland

Hi Tim,
You wrote:
“I still find it strange that after a 20 minute convo with GS discussing and seemingly stating the new (old but previously hidden?) truths of Sant Mat, that none of the many thousands of folk present came up to you and said something like – ‘Wow that definitely makes more sense to me now – I’ve had a gut feeling it was actually the case and I can see how the old teachings were acting like a scaffolding, but it’s time to remove them..’”
I agree. I also find it strange.
certainly if I was there and someone had the conversation I had with him, I would not leave the person alone. But hey – that’s me and you. Maybe they all think I am just deluded and Baba is just humoring me.
Tim: Is there a reason for them not appearing to get it? Or am I just judging them, based on my own ignorance?
my reply:
yes – there is a very good reason.
To “get it” the listener has to first drop the old ideas.
This is a long and difficult process.
They almost feel it is like betraying the guru to drop those teachings.
The more devoted, the harder to drop.
Many, like Arjuna said, will think it is a test.
If all my life I have believed in regions and leaving the body to go to Sach khand, then the question will naturally arise,
“Where the heck have all those regions gone to?”
If they were around before, they can’t just disappear!
secondly, so many people have experiences of light, sound, visions & regions.
So how can BabaJi say they don’t exist?
Clearly they do – he is just saying it so as not to create an argument.
Hence they cannot believe what BabaJi is saying.
At best it can remain an intellectual notion.
A theory to discuss over tea.
The last point you make – about the love card, is the way he brings in the notion of doing it out of love only – no other reason.
Everyone has a reason. They come to satsang. They do seva. They go to the mic.
Why? there is always a reason. They want something – they are greedy.
There is the notion that by coming to satsang and doing seva, I will gain something. When all else fails they go to the mic and ask for grace.
A final desperate attempt to get the grace directly or at least let him know how much you love him.
But he says, “sorry, those are just words, you don’t love me at all”
So now there is no way out. Other than to drop the ego that wants.
If there is nothing to be gained – then just drop all the seeking.
The buddha had a method:
he would say: take a begging bowl, but don’t beg.
Just knock the door and wait. Let the person do what they like.
Let them give or not give. To you, both are the same.
If they give, say thank you; If they don’t give, say thank you.
just make sure the second “thank you” is as real as the first.
That is the state of “no preferences”
In zen it is said
“The great way is EASY for those who have no preferences,
have the slightest preference and it becomes impossible”

@Jesse
you wrote:
“How do you know what Gurinder Singh Dhillon’s intentions are Osho? You make a lot of claims about what he *actually* means when he says things, and why he does what he does. How do you know?”
I don’t know.
Just an intelligent guess and my opinion.
I could of course be wrong.
Jesse wrote:
“It makes far more sense to think that this is what Gurinder is doing rather than your belief that he’s still a guru, but an even better one cause now he’s guiding you toward an even better enlightenment.
You’re still a satsangi, bro. And you’re still under that conman’s spell.”
my reply:
Like I said, I could be wrong, but the impression I get is that he is sincere
in getting people to stop the blind belief.
I am not under any spell. I don’t follow anyone.
My opinion is that he is sincere – but its just my opinion,
just as it’s your opinion that he is a conman.
either of us could be right or wrong.
I am cool both ways. if it turns out that I was wrong – that’s cool too.
Hey – I can’t be right all the time. Nobody is.
I don’t follow him, or his teachings, new or old, so I can’t really be a follower.
I was initiated, and if that is what makes me a satsangi, they yes, otherwise no.
Not that it matters, it’s just labels.

Hi Jim, great to hear from you. I just took a holiday from commenting on here.
Jim:
Reading your recent comments regarding your Haynes Sat Sang and playing Chess with Gurinder again, regardless of your denying you no longer are a Satsangi interested in RSSB, to me, at least, your comments show that Charan’s Bulldozer Chain is attached to your neck, as well as all of the rest of his Initiates. You can run, but you can not hide, because he has his Clone planted and rooted in your Third Eye as well as in Brian’s, Lane’s and mine! HaHa

My reply:
I am just saying that I am not an ardent follower of RSSB. However, I still like hanging out there from time to time, as I enjoy the conversation with the Baba of Science of the Soul (as he has now renamed it). Certainly he is an intriguing character and doing his best to give truthful answers to those who ask genuine questions.
Please note that when I say I don’t follow RSSB, it doesn’t mean I have anything against it. Sometimes I might speak out against certain aspects. I am neither for nor against.
Jim:
You write,….”So phenomena happens just like dreams happen.
When you wake up in the morning you say
“It was only a dream” meaning it was not real.
Of course it seemed real, at the time.
Only after waking up can you say it wasn’t real.
So yes phenomena happens. People see light and regions and master inside.
But it’s only as real as the dream.
So it happens but it’s not real
Maharaj Charan Singh says that we are not real.
“How can you be real?” He asks
“You are here today and gone tomorrow”
As long as I can remember, people who believe they know what’s going on in the world have said that we humans only are able to See 10% of what is real, while the remaining 90% is beyond our human sensory abilities to see the real 90% that we are blind to, because we do not have the Bio Equipment to access what’s real.
.
.
Cheers,
Jim Sutherland,…..a Real person, with a Real Name,…in Duality

The notion here is simple and easy to grasp.
Anything you can see has a FORM and it has a beginning and an end.
I don’t care if you see it with inner eyes or outer eyes.
Anything that you can see is MAYA – and is UNREAL.
It is true in the moment only – just as in dreams. But it has no REALNESS because it will be GONE soon. I define only that as real that remains the SAME and has no FORM
The formless only is real.

Well, Osho, I still disagree with your assessment, but one thing I can say that is to your advantage is that at least your character assessment is somewhat based on personal experience over a number of conversations.
I too asked Gurinder a question once, but only once and it wasn’t a very long answer he gave in reply. You have had a number of discussions that lasted a bit of time and you were able to look into his eyes, assuming he wasn’t wearing dark glasses like he did when I saw him at the dera. In that regard you have a better perspective.
I simply don’t buy it though.

Osho said: “Not that it matters, it’s just labels”
–This is interesting because it is obvious what Gurinder is teaching is not Surat Shabd Yoga. According to the new teachings (I’m relying on Osho for this) there is no surat (soul) and no yoga (union) because union is already the case. You can’t unify that which is already unified.
So what do we have here in terms of labels for the new doctrine of no doctrine?.. Neo Swami?
I think I have too much time on my hands writing about something I haven’t been actively involved with for over twenty years. This is what happens when you are waiting for epoxy and lacquer to dry all the time.

@Jesse
You don’t have to agree with me – as this is all just my opinion
and as you know, opinions can be wrong.
@Tucson
I agree, it’s a new twist and takes it all into a new direction, which I personally like.
Surat Shabd yoga has been replaced by Science of the Soul.
And yes – you probably have too much time on your hands
as do I

Reminds me of last 2 min of movie Some Like It Hot
to the left Osgood (the faithful sangat) and
to the right the captured guru!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWS2NVX6VP0&t=4s
hilarious similarities.

I loved reading this article just because you articulated very well that our Master teaches us that “what ever you sow, so shall you reap”, Further you confirmed that he teaches us that don’t bow in front any human just realize thyself because he want us to believe that “Self Realization is God realization”.
Now I am totally confused to understand your thoughts that you claim to be my Master’s criticizer but your writing in this article ending up as “Spreading my Master’s teachings”. Keep doing good work, may almighty bless you!

@rajeev sharma
You mis-understand me.
Jesse thinks I am a believer of RSSB
But I am neither for nor against.
Babaji is not collecting followers.
I have not converted to RSSB
Brian also said he too was impressed, but that does not mean he is about to go to Beas and sign up for sevadar status.
I am just impressed because he is making it clear that you have have your own realisation and not rely on him.
He is discouraging blind following.
What I saw impressed me.
If I see anything that I don’t like I will write about that too.
I previously wrote about sevadars egos gone wild at Haynes.
That is what I meant. That was also not against RSSB
Just an observation of what happened there
So there is nothing to be confused about
Right now I am on your side, if you think in terms of sides.
But next week I might be on the other side.
I am not reliable
I am on the side of truth.
Any clearer? Or have I confused you more?

To all those who think that he goes on the golfcart to give darshan because he has fun note that you probably do not know the history behind this change. It used to be that sangat makes a line and passes by the stage to take darshan and it used to be crowded as hell and people sometimes got hurt in the pushing. Also people would try to change the line they were in to be as close to the stage which would hassle a lot of sevadars who would be trying to help things go smoothly. This is why Babaji asked everyone to sit and he would go around. It is one of the many things he has done to make things easier for his disciples.

Hi
Theres nothing new… His words are same in Indian Satsangs aswell…He just motivates everyone for Bhajan Simran… by saying He will not do it for us… each one for himself…Master Charan singh ‘question answers’ you will hear same answers… so nothing has changed…the essence is the same…though Master is of time…every master comes with His own style.

Theres nothing new… His words are same in Indian Satsangs aswell…He just motivates everyone for Bhajan Simran… by saying He will not do it for us… each one for himself. – Sandeep
He has just demolished the five regions and also killed the lords of those regions
and you say it’s the same as before?
He says have no expectations in bhajan / simran. You will not reach anywhere.
and it’s the same as before?
I said that I used to think there were regions and was trying to get to Sach Khand as depicted in Sar Bachan and he says “You should have asked me – I would have told you there are no regions – just the ONE!”
and he added, “I have never read the Sar Bachan”
Yes – he still advocates meditation but says is means to be quiet and turn inwards and focus on who you are, not to get to some regions or to have inner experiences.
He also says that the master will not come at death.
and you say there is no change?
Sawan said that the guru who will not come at death I will just wave to him from a distance.
Someone once said this to Baba and he replied “Then go ahead and wave from a distance!”
I know it can appear that there is no change as he still gives out the old teachings too. But when he had a 20 minute session with me on the mic – there was no sign of the old teachings.

Yes indeed he changed the teachings.
Some people do not want to notice it seems.
I do not know why,because i see this as better.
No slip down and all that stuff.
I heard that several times in Dera still but that were old satsang sewadars.
Babaji is not speaking from old books..
He is more a teacher then a Holy man 🙂
One can see him as a teacher or not..
Each to their own..
s*

Marina Version 3.0
Hallel-fucking-ujah!!!
Praise be the truth!
Some friend emailed me this link, which made my day. Well, moment.
Kill the Buddha Kill the Master! (Eh, metaphorically speaking in case there is some crazy goon gonna take this literally)
I love it. Strip away the bullshit. Strip away the dressing, the character.
Dreaming, that’s all it’s being. Hearing with sheep ears.
I seen something that I couldn’t see 7 years ago.
7 fucking years ago. It rocked my world, life, me as I knew them.
The Ghost Story, by Sadhu Om.
” One evening a young boy went for a stroll with his
father. When dusk had almost set in, he beheld a tree-trunk
from which the branches and leaves had been cut off. He
was terrified and screamed, “Oh Father! There, see, a ghost!”
Though his father knew the truth that it was just the stem
of a tree, he assured the boy,” Oh, that ghost! It cannot do
you any harm. I am here and will see to it, Come on”; so
saying, he led the boy away. On hearing the encouraging
words of his father, the boy took them to mean, ‘My father
is stronger than the ghost and that is why he says that it can
do me no harm’. This conclusion of the boy is similar to the
understanding of the pandits about the meaning of the Yoga
and Vedanta sastras !.
Next evening, while going, for a stroll with his teacher
along the same path, the boy exclaimed, “Sir, look ! There’s
the ghost; we saw it yesterday also ,” The teacher pitied him
for his ignorance and said, “That is not a ghost”, But the boy
persisted, “No sir, my father also saw it yesterday; he even
assured me that he would see to it that it could do me no
harm; but sir, you say it is not a ghost at all’” Would the
teacher yield so easily? He said, “Go near it and see for
yourself; I will shine the flashlight on it. If it turns out to
be a ghost, I too will see to it !”
The sastras are like the words of the father in the
story. The father also knew well that it was not a ghost.
Similarly, the great Sages who gave these sastras also knew
well the absolute truth (paramarthika satya) that nothing
such as the ego, body, or world has ever come into existence
at all. The father, knowing that his son was quite unfit to
The Enquiry, ‘Who Am I?’ and The Four Yogas
82 The Path of Sri Ramana – Part One
make a closer examination on account of his much
frightened state at that time, talked to him as if he were also
accepting the existence of the false ghost imagined by his
son. Even while talking like that, he was not telling a lie.
To allay quickly the fear of his son, he said, ‘The ghost
cannot do you any harm: That was indeed the truth!
However, what the teacher told him the next day was the
absolute truth (paramarthika satya). Although the, teacher’s
statement that it was not a ghost seems to contradict the
father’s statement, does it not in fact lend more support to
the objective of the father’s statement that the ghost could
do the boy no harm, by making him see for himself that it
was after all only the stem of a tree? By thus fulfilling the
father’s objective does not the statement of the teacher
breathe new life into that of the father”? Instead of
understanding thus, if the boy were to conclude,’ Either my
teacher has condemned my father, Of my father has told me
an outright lie’, it would be utterly wrong on his part.
Similarly, Sri Bhagavan has neither condemned the sastras,
nor shown them to be false; nor have the sastras stated
untruths. If any reader were to come to this mistaken
conclusion about Sri Bhagavan, ‘he would be just as much
wrong as would have been the boy in our story.”
I couldn’t unhear this. I asked Baba ji at an evening session 7 years ago
after telling this story…’so are you lying to us?’
Him:No, sister, people say they want the truth, but they don’t.
Me: I DO. GIVE IT TO ME!!
Him: What do you say to a 5 yr old who wants to grow up?
If you tell people (refereeing to the auditorium we were in) that there was a light outside of this room, they’ll get mad at you, won’t believe you. But if you agree with them, let them relax then they may be willing to take a Look!
Nobody came to me afterwards but one man, saying thank you, that has helped me.
All the rest, heard just ‘a cute irish eejit with a master having fun with her’.
Totally missed the point!!
No wonder it’s called the open secret. There to be seen, if we open our eyes.
Simple and as difficult as that. Need to clear the beliefs and bullshit to see.
Again, hallel-fucking-ujah!

Among much else, Gurinder Singh reportedly said the astounding “There is nothing. What will you get by coming to satsang? Nothing.”
I guess a lot of credit can be given to those who criticize satsangis for seeking words of wisdom at some guru’s feet. But I’ve noticed that those same critics tend to fully accept whatever anyone posts on the net about what Gurinder said as 100% accurate verbatim, and not in any need of verification, even from just one other anonymous internet source. We demand that gurus be scientific, so why can’t we lead the way and follow the science of good journalism? If just one alleged satsangi is offering one particular amazing Gurinder quote, and no one else has come forward to say they heard these same words out of Gurinder’s mouth, quite possibly the alleged amazing quote isn’t genuine.

@lllllvvvvvv
” If just one alleged satsangi is offering one particular amazing Gurinder quote, and no one else has come forward to say they heard these same words out of Gurinder’s mouth, quite possibly the alleged amazing quote isn’t genuine. ”
Well that ‘nothing verse’ was said at the national Haynes park satsang on the sunday (last day) so there were about 30,000+ people present who heard it.
I can see why you would doubt it – but there are plenty of recorded satsangs now on youtube – and some of the new teachings will be filtering through.

There is only Punjabi satsangs on youtube right?
That is a pitty!!
I would like very much English satsangs from Babaji himself..
I am sure more people want that.

@ osho – perhaps the master meant there is nothing FOR YOU! Who knows.
My own gut feeling is you are trying to have a stand off with him and that your own ego is your Master. I could think of a million things to do rather than go to Haynes if I was In doubt. And I didn’t go!
Also who is playing who here your scenario?
Say if he is the really the Main Thing – then my friend everyone of us including me are truly fucked. I am getting a very bad feeling feeling about this now. Take the comments as you would say my belief!

Tread very carefully with these beings – not all of them are false – they owe you no explaination and don’t be too proud of ones intellect – least he show who has real intellect – usually at out unfortunate expense!
Love all

“We demand that gurus be scientific, so why can’t we lead the way and follow the science of good journalism?”
Gurinder bans recording devices and there are almost no non-believers there to corroborate with. Ask Gurinder to start publishing all his talks since he records them all.
Satsangis read all the RS books over the years which are full of unverified and unverifiable examples of “saints” and others which often contradict each other, and nobody calls them out on their repetitive claims of “so and so saint did this and said that.”
The entire subject of gurus vs reality is tedious.
Also, journalism isn’t a science.

Marina,
Each person has to arrive at their awakening at the right time. If we preach against the path the followers will become rebellious. Its not easy waking up, left with nothingness, unknowingness, some exers still seem to have a religious streak. How amazing it is that Gurinder is revealing the truth in the things he says but then people think he is just joking because they desperately want to believe in someone, some thing.

Arjuna wrote:
@ osho – perhaps the master meant there is nothing FOR YOU! Who knows.
my reply:
the “nothing conversation” was on the Sunday of the national satsang, not in the conversation with me.
And – of course there is nothing for me – that also is true. but doesn’t need saying.
Arjuna:
My own gut feeling is you are trying to have a stand off with him and that your own ego is your Master. I could think of a million things to do rather than go to Haynes if I was In doubt. And I didn’t go!
my reply:
No stand off. No testing. Nothing like that. Just a straightforward open conversation.
By both of us. No battle of the egos.
I could also think of a few things (maybe not a million) that I might do instead of going to Haynes, but I enjoy it from time to time. Also I wasn’t in any doubt. I didn’t go there to clear up any doubt.
I just voiced my truth – the rest is up to him.
Arjuna:
Also who is playing who here your scenario?
Say if he is the really the Main Thing – then my friend everyone of us including me are truly fucked. I am getting a very bad feeling feeling about this now. Take the comments as you would say my belief!
My reply:
Nobody is playing anyone.
Why is anyone fucked? You think a master will get revenge if you just have a conversation with him? Which version of sant mat have you been reading?
I just had a straight forward conversation and he gave a straight forward response. Why would you have a “bad feeling” and fear about anything?
I certainly have no fear. I spoke to him like a friend. I explained my journey and invited his comments. If he chooses not to engage with me – he is perfectly in his rights to say “I have no comments” and its the end of the dialogue.
The dialogue he had with me gave him an opportunity to explain in detail about the ONENESS. And about the idea that if there is ONENESS there cannot be individuality as the two cannot co-exist.

“if there is ONENESS there cannot be individuality as the two cannot co-exist.”
Well then we know oneness doesn’t exist because we can readily observe individuality, which is sweet because I like being me and not melting into oblivion.

I am a Dualist Challeger to Oneess Advaitists. Inagree with Jessie that Oneness is nothing but imagination of Raman Advaitists that hid in a cave wasting their individual lives with out ever contributing any thing to Civilization or honoring the Human Body Temple Christ Graced them with.
Here are my Arguments against Totality of Consciousness and ansoute ONENESS.
“250 million Sperm Cells are ejaculated during Sex by each male “god.” EACH Sperm cell “ ( potential gods ) was merged in each male god, but not even a single one of those little gods will EVER merge back to male god again. Same applies to individual CREATED spirits. We were ALL ejaculated by the ONE GOD, a few Marked Elect to create and procreate, while most to become Reprobates. But we ALL remain in Duality for eternity, never to return as a Sperm. But we all have opportunity to progress to highest reagins to sail, skim, float, paddle, enjoy the SURFACE of the Ocean with out becoming the Ocean. Lucifer was the highest, most magnificent Angelic Light Being ever created by GOD, THE ONE. He became convinced He could be as powerful as his Creator GOD, by becoming HIM, but his pride was his downfall, and GOD expelled him from Heaven, ( Anami) and Lucifer became Satan the Deceiver, i.e. Kal.”
Amen!
Jim Sutherland

No ONENESS for Fish, Birds or Humans!
“Is any single fish in the Ocean the Ocean? Is the Ocean every fish? No, the fish are individual fish, many different species, IN the Ocean, but not the Ocean. The Ocean is IN each fish, as each fish is in the Ocean, but as merged as they are, they remain individuals. Are Birds in the Air THE AIR? Is the AIR in the bird’s a big Bird? No, they are individuals merged together, as we individual spirits are Co-Creators with GOD, Anami, Christ. All Masters are Co-Creators, with Radhasoami, Anami. H2O is Water. It is liquid, until frozen, then becomes ice, until it evaporates and becomes gas. Water contains 2 Atoms of Oxygen, and one Atom of Hydrogen. When are the Atoms Water, when they are Liquid, Solid, or Gas? When are spirits God, …..when they are in Physical, Astral, Causal, or Sach Khand?
😇
Jim Sutherland

The Apostle Paul’s Oneness Conjectures.
Here is how the Apostle Paul dealt with being a “member” of the body of Christ, but mot Christ the ONE.
1 Corinthians 12:12-27 King James Version (KJV)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.”
Amen!
Jim Sutherland

For your information, I argued with Oneness Pentecostal Sects tor years, that are called “Jesus Only” Pentecostal Christians who teach that God is Jesus only. They are the Christian Neo-Advaita people who interpreted Scripture,…..as Gurinder and Ishwar Puri are misinterpreting Sant Mat Teachings.
Oneness Pentecostalism rejects all concepts of a subordination, duality, trinity, pantheon, co-equality, co-eternity, or other versions of the Godhead that assert plural gods, plural beings, divine “persons”, individuals, or multiple centers of consciousness within that Godhead. It equally denies all concepts of Jesus as anything other than fully God and fully man, together with all teachings that assert that he was merely a “good man,” or only a sinless man, high priest or prophet, rather than God himself. Oneness doctrine declares that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, but that this happened only when he was born from Mary on Earth. It rejects the view that any person can “obtain” the status of God whether by works or by grace, maintaining that Jesus Christ did not “obtain” his status, but rather that he is the one, eternal God himself manifested in the flesh according to the Oneness Pentecostal interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:16, as is rendered in the King James Version.[citation
Cheers!
Jim Sutherland

To the mistaken ONENESS ……….
I rest my Case. IF I wake up some Eon Alone, unable to see any other Form , nor hear any Sound, even MY SELF, nor am able to identify with any other uncreated nothingness in the Multiverse,…I will admit I am GOD, and ejaculate spirits in to a BIG BANG!
The Advaita God must practice Tantra Spiritual Sex! He never ejaculates. He reabsorbs his spirit Sperms and eventually dies of Prostate Cancer, as Sawan and Kirpal did.
😇😍🙏🏻
Jim Sutherland

Atheists could likewise say, well nonexistence always is and always was. Except they then have a big problem:
We exist.
So now they are left with the difficult job of explaining how existence came out of nonexistence and since they cannot do it and the idea is so irrational it defies even Santa Claus logic, I’ve found from there the conversation tends to descend into insults as is always the case when someone holds tightly to an irrational belief.
What doesn’t exist has no properties and cannot give rise to anything.

As said by Amir Khusro about His Master Nizamuddin Aulia:
(Amir Khusro: the 21st disciple who stood there and 20 left
when they saw their Master at the brothel.)
“Chap tilak sab cheene re mose naina milayike…”
meaning:
The Master took away all my impressions, just by making the eye contact.
Left me with nothing and filled with Love.
And now has coloured me same as Himself.
When there is nothing left, the only thing left there is Love.
Love is nothing, nothing is Love.

Well then we know oneness doesn’t exist because we can readily observe individuality, which is sweet because I like being me and not melting into oblivion.

Awareness gives rise to oneness. It’s not some molecular meld
of matter or oblivion of “me”. When the mystic attains “totality of consciousness”, he remains incarnate, an individual among many
just as he was before. There’s no vanishing act like James Earl
Jones in the “Field of Dreams” corn field.
It’s only awareness that expands. There’s no implosion in a puff
of smoke. A drop in the ocean realizes it’s already in the ocean.
There’s no journey. It just knows it’s more than the single drop it
thought it was for so long.

Well then we know oneness doesn’t exist because we can readily observe individuality, which is sweet because I like being me and not melting into oblivion.

Awareness gives rise to oneness. It’s not some molecular meld
of matter or oblivion of “me”. When the mystic attains “totality of consciousness”, he remains incarnate, an individual among many
just as he was before. There’s no vanishing act like James Earl
Jones in the “Field of Dreams” corn field.
It’s only awareness that expands. There’s no implosion in a puff
of smoke. A drop in the ocean realizes it’s already in the ocean.
There’s no journey. It just knows it’s more than the single drop it
thought it was for so long.

287daysleft, your logic leaves a lot to be desired. Something has always existed. We know that existence exists, so it makes sense to simply say, “Existence has always existed.”
But religious believers add in something extra, God. So they claim that first God existed (which really is the same as saying that something has always existed), then they hypothesize that God brought the rest of existence into existence.
This is why atheism makes MUCH more sense than religion. It is simpler, and doesn’t rely on unprovable assumptions.

@ Osho – brother those were my thoughts only, I’m a dualist. Question how does Oneness work when you have two or three masters alive at the same time? Kabir, Guru Nanak and Ravidass – correct me if I got the dates of these three being alive wrong! But you get my drift!
@ Jim – hello. Hope you are well? I got a bit lost and am trying to seek knowledge and clarification – is Onesness an attribute of Kal? Is anyone who preaches Oneness a demiurge or such? And therefore he will not lead us home?

Dungeness, that makes no sense. What oneness are you talking about? Awareness is awareness. Being more aware doesn’t make distinct object cease to exist, as you mentioned, so what or where is the oneness?

Oneness has nothing to do with there being a number of masters at the same time. I am not sure what you understand by the word ONENESS.
You appear to think oneness means there is only one master on the earth at a time.
ONENESS is the absolute realization that there is nothing except the ONE. Nothing else has ever existed and nothing else will ever exist except the ONE.
Of course you can argue that right now I exist and you exist, which are two and then there are others also, so there are MANY. which makes a nonsense of ONENESS.
But that statement comes from a mis-understanding of the meaning of ONENESS.
There is the appearance of Many, because within time/space there is many. but everything within time and space is changing, and everything that changes is only for the moment. Here today and gone tomorrow. Indian scriptures call it MAYA. Maya means that which you see and hear but it’s unreal because its not here forever. It is for a short while only.
“Jo Desi, so to hai nahin” That which you can see – that is not IT (ONENESS)
“Jo hai so kaha no jai” That which it is (ONENESS) cannot be said
Why can’t it be said? Because ONENESS cannot be pointed to. It’s not a time/space construct, it’s not an object. All you can say is it’s nothing.
So the athiest is correct. There is nothing. That nothing is the same as saying ONENESS.
The notion that “I” will continue to exist is a delusion. The “I” does not exist even now.
Just as the body is an illusion, so is the “I” an illusion.
Yeah, I know it’s not very nice of me to call you an illusion.
But if it’s any consolation, “I”, the one calling you an illusion, am also an illusion.
So I am in the same boat as you. We are both in a sinking boat.
This body which I call “MY” body is going to die (go into non-existence) and so is every other body.
But the OWNER (the ME or the “I”) is also going to die, not live forever.
In religious language we call this ME the EGO or the ATMA, the so-called REAL ME that exists beyond the body. This is what all religions and also sant mat says goes to Sach Khand if you meditate and if you don’t then it re-incarnates in another body.
So here are the sant mat teachings in a nutshell.

Your individual ATMA is in your body. The ATMA is a drop of the ocean known as PARAM-ATMA (God). So you are a particle of the ocean of god.
when your body dies, your ATMA will re-incarnate into another body because you still have desires and those desires will take you into another body so you can continue to fulfill your desires.
The purpose of the sant mat path is that you must go beyond your desires and seek only God, but since you cannot see God, you do it through that which you can see – the Guru or God-man.
You attach yourself to Him. Hence the importance of the guru in sant mat. Hence so many shabds about the love of the master.
If you manage to love the master beyond all else, then you will go where the master goes. Since he goes to Sach Khand, you will also go there. So then in meditation, you will go there NOW while still in your body. You will leave your body and your ATMA will travel through the astral region where it will meet with the radiant form of the guru and he will take you step by step through each of the regions and finally deliver you to the supreme being Sat Purush in Sach Khand.
But of course Sat Purush doesn’t live alone. Sach khand is made up of ALAKH, AGAM and ANAMI desh. So it’s sub-divided into three regions and the three lords all live together. The highest (there always has to be a highest) is called ANAMI and he it the final supreme being. Once you get to him, you will merge and disappear totally.

That’s the sant mat and radha soami teachings as clearly written in Sar Bachan and other books like Radha Swami Teachings.
The same books which Baba told me to burn when I quoted from them.
Why did he ask me to burn them? (meaning they are not the truth, but a romanticized version)
And why does he say, “If you meet the Buddha (Guru) on the way, Kill him!”
because the ONENESS path (if you can call it a path, which I can’t) states that since there is only ONENESS then the master is also part of the illusion. The master is not god in human form. Instead, the master is a FINGER pointing to the MOON (ONENESS) and its important not to grab hold of the finger, but rather see where is it pointing and realize it (ONENESS).
So the master has a different role. He is just pointing you towards ONENESS, not acting like a role model and not to be worshiped or even looked up to. In zen, masters go to great extremes to downplay the master and make sure you don’t worship the master.
Baba is doing the same. He says, “My body is just like yours. It will also die. Don’t attach yourself to the body, instead focus on the ONENESS and realize the oneness”
Now a few things about the ONENESS.
“Paltu ikoi ikk hai – dussar nahin koi” – Paltu there is only the ONE – there is none else.
He is not saying there is not another God. He is saying there is only the ONE.
All else is maya or illusion.
Maya or illusion is that which appears to he real (you could say it’s real for now – in the moment)
But it will not remain forever. That which will remain forever (and is NOW also) is what I call the ONENESS and can also be called NOTHING. They are one and the same thing. (not a thing)
in hindu scriptures they say NETI NETI meaning not THIS and not THAT. Anything you can see – that is not IT.
IT means the ONE. You cannot see it, point to it, or say anything about it. No attributes.
It’s not LOVE! or BLISS or anything else. Those are attributes and it has none.
All teachings about it are false. All concepts you create are wrong.
It makes no sense to even ask, “What is it”
ONENESS is not a teaching or a path. It is the end of all seeking. The athiest is the closest as he no longer seeks.
The religious person rarely gets it as he is constantly seeking, and asking if he has reached.
There is nowhere to reach.
And who is going to reach? The fictional “I” cannot reach.
reaching and arriving are concepts and not part of oneness. oneness just is. no reaching or arriving. no medals, no rewards, no pat on the back for finally getting it.
It sounds like nonsense – because it is.
like trying to describe “nothing”
everything I say about getting to ‘nothing’ will be nonsense
because ‘nothing’ is not a destination
confused? you will be if you read it all again.

@arjuna
the above comment was directed to you in answer to your question about many masters at the same time.
ONENESS is not a theory to understand – but a realization that it is all there is.
individuality is like a wave in the ocean.
The ocean is like the ONENESS.
The wave is not real in the sense that it comes and goes. It does not remain.
The ocean remains.
The wave is like the individual, like the “I”
It is real only in the sense that you can see it for a short while.
After that the wave is gone and will never be seen again.
Another wave will arise – but not the same one.
So I am saying there are no wayes.
Of course you can see them, but I am saying there are no waves in the sense that waves come an go and are not real. they are momentary.
just like us.
A disciple takes a burning candle to the master and says
“Where did the flame come from?”
The zen master blows it out
“Where did it go?” he asks
“wherever it went to – that’s where it came from”
What is the sound of one hand clapping? – zen Koan

Yeah, that didn’t clarify oneness in the slightest, Osho.
Just a lot of talk about many things, and then saying in some super abstract way that many isn’t actually many, because things that aren’t permanent don’t really exist. Not buying it.

“ONENESS is not a theory to understand – but a realization that it is all there is”
How do we know that. Everything we hear about whether its religion, spirituality, atheism, if we agree with something without proof then its all about belief. Even believing in nothingness, emptiness its still a belief system. We don’t know if there is only this life. We don’t know if there is life after death. We don’t know if we have a spirit or a soul. We can have a realisation which we agree with and which makes sense to us and then think we know the answer to everything but this is also just a belief.

that makes no sense. What oneness are you talking about? Awareness is awareness. Being more aware doesn’t make distinct object cease to exist,
as you mentioned,

Mystic awareness grasps inner transcendent reality. That reality
is oneness, a single “soul” that individuates in different forms.
It’s the same soul in all them so the multiplicity of forms is like
a puppet show. When it’s over, the puppeteer folds up his
props and goes home.
Earlier, someone wrote:
“if there is ONENESS there cannot be individuality as the
two cannot co-exist.”
You responded:
“Well then we know oneness doesn’t exist because we can readily
observe individuality, which is sweet because I like being me
and not melting into oblivion”
Actually, you don’t melt into oblivion. Your awareness extends to
multiple levels. The puppeteer sees and manipulates the whole
drama. The puppets love, fight, and enact their dramatic roles
and don’t see their inner manipulator. They don’t see their true
self, the puppeteer behind the curtain. If the puppeteer chooses
though, he can raise a puppet’s awareness of the truth. The puppet
will know he’s playing a role and realize this duality isn’t real.
He’ll know he is the puppeteer himself playing multiple roles.

that makes no sense. What oneness are you talking about? Awareness is awareness. Being more aware doesn’t make distinct object cease to exist,
as you mentioned,

Mystic awareness grasps inner transcendent reality. That reality
is oneness, a single “soul” that individuates in different forms.
It’s the same soul in all them so the multiplicity of forms is like
a puppet show. When it’s over, the puppeteer folds up his
props and goes home.
Earlier, someone wrote:
“if there is ONENESS there cannot be individuality as the
two cannot co-exist.”
You responded:
“Well then we know oneness doesn’t exist because we can readily
observe individuality, which is sweet because I like being me
and not melting into oblivion”
Actually, you don’t melt into oblivion. Your awareness extends to
multiple levels. The puppeteer sees and manipulates the whole
drama. The puppets love, fight, and enact their dramatic roles
and don’t see their inner manipulator. They don’t see their true
self, the puppeteer behind the curtain. If the puppeteer chooses
though, he can raise a puppet’s awareness of the truth. The puppet
will know he’s playing a role and realize this duality isn’t real.
He’ll know he is the puppeteer himself playing multiple roles.

@Jen
Its not about belief because belief is a barrier to discovery.
Atheism for instance is not another belief. atheism asserts that “I don’t know”
Atheism doesn’t state “there is no God”. It asserts that there is not enough evidence to believe in a God.

Osho:
I think you are confusing agnosticism with atheism. Agnosticism is “I don’t know.”
Atheism is, “I do know and there is no God.”
Atheism: a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods.
Agnostic: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.

We ALL must be able to admit there must be some Higher Power than our selves?
Alcoholic’s Anonymous chooses to call this unseen God, which they don’t believe exists, their “ Higher Power.”
The Higher Power, substituted for God, has been an excellent Recovery Program used by many Addiction Victims.
We are all addicted to some thing or other, that suppresses our abilities to choose what’s best for our persuit of happiness.
I advise those who are unable to believe there is a God Who loves you, or cares about your personal existence, to consider surrendering to a Higher Power that ‘ Some”, but not all, choose to call God.
Higher Power in the 12 Steps
God or higher power is mentioned in 6 of the 12 steps. These terms are used interchangeably. The idea of a higher power is the key element of the program, as seen in the following steps:
* Step 2 – We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
* Step 3- We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
* Step 5- We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
* Step 6-_We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character._
* Step 7- We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
* Step 11 – We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.“
Cheers,
Jim Sutherland

Blogger Brian:
I am not talking about religious believers and didn’t mention them. I only know most, if not all of them are off kilter.
It sounds like you just said, religious believers are off kilter so atheism makes more sense. Ok, I’ll give you that, true enough.
But I’m just talking about simple logic. How did nonexistence give rise to existence? That is not logical.
Cosmologists say, first there was a subatomic quark which then… blah blah blah …and gave rise to a big bang and then our Unviverse.
Wait, what? You can’t start with first there is xyz. Where did that subatomic quark come from?
If you are going to posit we go into nonexistence tell how we got out of nonexistence. Saying have faith won’t do. You can’t get out of nonexistence because it doesn’t exist. So are you saying, something existed, gave rise to everyone that exists now, but eventually we will all go into nonexistence and from then on it will be a case of nonexistence is just the permanent non-condition of the non-Universe?
Are you saying you don’t know? If so, then you are an agnostic not an atheist. An atheist says, I know that there is no “always existing being”.
An agnostic says, “I don’t know”.

If nonexistence is to soon be the permanent condition of ourselves and the Universe, perhaps we should attempt to experience it ahead of time to get used to it.
Ramana tried going into nonexistence. He went as deep into it as he possibly could. But then something arose that said “I-I”. Perhaps “I” is the closest word we have for the existence that always is.

Osho,
To say the One has no properties is incorrect. The One is nothing. But it is a perfect nothing. For example if you combine all of the anti-matter with all the matter, you have nothing.
But it is a whole nothing that contains everything and is therefore perfect. Absolute Perfection. Absolute Wholeness. Absolute Humor. In fact I would say God, (Nothing) is most correctly described as absolute humor.
Infinite humor just always was, a divine laughter that has no opposite, just lesser grades of itself.

“individuates ” “you” your” “the puppeteer” “puppets”
All these things are exactly NOT oneness. Try again please.

I want to say that the ocean analogy is dumb too because the ocean isn’t one. The ocean is trillions of individual water molecules which are themselves made up of smaller subatomic particles or whatever.
Being constructed of one kind of substance isn’t oneness.

@287daysleft
Atheism is not the belief that there is no god.
The atheist says there is not enuf proof to warrant a belief in god.
So there is nothing the atheist has to prove.
https://youtu.be/yICsS8CX4wQ

@287daysleft
“Nothing” cannot have a brand. It cannot be perfect.
Because then there must be an imperfect nothing.
So two types of nothing.
Well then it’s not nothing, it is now a something
And it is also not a ONE as there are two types now.

@jesse
It’s an analagy.
No analagy is perfect.
An analagy is used to show something similar. You can pick every analagy apart if you dig deep enough. Doesn’t make the analagy invalid.

Osho,
I guess I wouldn’t rely on a youtube channel to define atheism. I guess in a broad sense someone can take it to mean anything they want. In the english I grew up with agnostics were the ones without beliefs and atheists were the ones who definitely knew there is no God.
Perhaps the definitions are changing, english is a changing language.
The way I was brought up: Atheism is the blind, unfounded belief that God does not exist, and atheists don’t like to face the fact that they are blind believers, so they try to circumvent that by saying, atheism is lack of belief in God.

Osho,
How can you have an imperfect nothing? If it’s nothing it is perfect. Where would an imperfection be found?
Maybe it depends on the viewpoint. Apparently Suzanne Segal (Collision With the Infinite) experienced a Void at her center and was afraid of it. Others seem to describe that same Void and find it totally satisfying.

Osho it’s not only a problem with the analogy. It’s the problem of everything in existence that we know of being made of components and smaller parts and of the fact that we exist individually. If I can exist as an individual, then a whole single oneness can’t exist. My separateness has already divided oneness.
As far as any human is concerned or can comprehend, oneness is a meaningless concept.

@287daysleft
Came across this in a google search
Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods. Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system.
It is a common misconception that the atheist is claiming that there is no god, in fact he is not making that claim.
He does not believe there is a god.
Not the same as saying he believes that god does not exist.
That would require him to prove it.
As far as I know the atheist has never said there is no god.
Of course some atheists go further and say that it is unlikely that god exists, but that is not part of atheism

@287daysleft
Atheism: a philosophical or religious position characterized by disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods
You quoted this.
Disbelief in the existence of god means he does not believe.
However he does not say there is no god. That would require him to give proof.

Interesting, thanks for explaining that Osho Robbins.
If I say I have a disbelief you are a king, it generally means that I believe you are not a king.
If I have no belief one way or another whether you are a king, I would not say I have a disbelief you are a king.
So, since apparently the word atheism can be defined in a lot of different ways, and ways I am not used to. And since no one knows how to define God…
I would like to ask both you and Blogger Brian and anyone else on this board that feels like commenting what your atheism means to you in terms of afterlife. Do you think you go into nonexistence? Do you just have no opinion? Do you hold a similar view as Buddhists who describe Nirvana as a state:
“Nibbana of the Buddhists is neither a mere nothingness nor a state of annihilation, but what it is no words can adequately express.”
http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell10.htm
“Most schools of Buddhism explain Nirvana as a state of bliss or peace, and this state may be experienced in life, or it may be entered into at death.”
http://buddhism.about.com/od/abuddhistglossary/g/nirvanadef.htm
“Nirvana is the greatest bliss…”
(Middle Length Discourses, p. 613)

@ Jim – I agree with you ! There is a higher power.
I laugh when I read some of the people on here demanding answers or intellectual justification of this higher “ show me proof”. Jumping up and down like children.
I guess they will be shown proof when it’s too late for them. Particularly when their own body and mind testify against them.
But I’m sticking with your words and extracting myself from all this play to find peace. And I will be leavinv the forces too, all the very best Jim.

@Arjuna,…I’d say and wish you ….” Good Luck,”…….but I know luck has nothing to do with what happens to us. We have created what is happening to us now, and are still creating what will happen to us in the future. The most important thing we can do for our own individual future happiness and welfare is, as soon as our inner Conscious makes us aware of our guilt for doing some habit, like Alcohol, drugs, etc. we know is keeping us bound to the lower levels of life, then the very leadt we should to to start improving our situation is to STOP doing what we know is harming us. The Bible calls that “ Repentence.” Even if we don’t turn in to instant Saints, and start trying to change the world, while not even changing our own empty roll of toilet tissue, our Path to recovery and Journey back to our Home will begin.
I sense you have a tender heart and are surely one of those Marked by The Higher Power to return Home in spite of your Camouflaged Uniform and harsh image you try to hide behind.
I think you have said you are age 36. That seems to be around the age we Males start recognising we need some Higher Power to guide us, because we have found our powers haven’t worked, and we always end up digging our selves further down the rat hole.
I was 35 when I first seriously turned my life over to the Higher Power I thought to be Christ, at that time, and my life changed so rapidly, I no longer had to make any decisions on my own. As each new door opened, all I had to do was walk thru it, and if it didn’t open, I no longer tried to crash it open or break it down. I just waited for the next door to open.
I never even was initiated in to Sant Mat until age 45 when I quit eating meat! So, I have had a lot more karma to burn off than you have rignt now. I did quit Alcohol and tobacco at age 35 tho, so I was delivered partially at age 35, and am still being delivered of other habits to this day, but its much easier to just Let Go, and Let God!
At my age, its now easy to look back today, to see every time I was struggling, and disappointed becsuse Zi couldn’t crash a door down, or get some job or position I really wanted, or thousands of other things. Better things always later turned up for me that were surely chosen FOR me, and not BY me! But we never find out until later, while Monday Morning Quarter backing.
Also, Charan, Gurinder, Jesus, and many others started on their Paths in their mid 30s, so your very Best is AHEAD of you, and not behind you!
If and when you leave the Military, you will need you find the right Position to support yourself and continue your Career Path. When that time comes, pray, meditate, and choose wisely before jumping in to the first thing that comes before you. Some times, the Best comes last! .
So, choose wisely. And if you choose and find you made a mistake, than don’t stay there and decay, move on until you find some thing that makes you happy and you are able to do with out feeling guilty about, or adding karma to your soul. Work as a Missionary to make your Higher Soul Self proud, and to decrease your karmic debits.
Best to You,
Jim Sutherland

@287daysleft

If I say I have a disbelief you are a king, it generally means that I believe you are not a king.
If I have no belief one way or another whether you are a king, I would not say I have a disbelief you are a king.

not true.
example:
when a person is accused of a crime and is before the court.
the verdicts are either GUILTY or NOT GUILTY.
There is no verdict called INNOCENT.
here’s why:
GUILTY verdict means: There is enough evidence to determine the accused is guilty.
NOT GUILTY means: There is NOT enough evidence to determine the accused is guilty.
He may still have committed the crime. But there is not enough evidence to determine this.
It does not mean he is INNOCENT, he may or may not be.
The athiest position is this:
I don think there is enough evidence to warrant a belief in god.
hence he says I have a disbelief in a god. Lack of belief.
He does not say, “therefore there is no god”, rather he says “there might be” but there is no reason or evidence to support the belief that there is a god.
hence the athiest has no burden of proof. A negative cannot be proven anyway.
the burden of proof falls on the person who makes a claim. The atheist makes no claim.
The atheist simply states he does not believe in a god.
He is not saying there is no god. That would be making a claim.
This is the ‘soft’ athiest position.

Intrigued;
Can it be that he is stating the most simplistic truth without any need and connection to any one religion or worship in a human being? Can it be that science not sprituality can be fully realised unless experienced? Is cause and effect based on what we are accustomed to understanding but upon dying either this continues or a notion of being breaks away into oneness?
As for riches do people pay anything as in money to belong to this path or is it just ones time given. If it’s ones time given does it really matter if there is a benefit to that person?
The feed is interesting but I’m just asking a question without wanting to be a critique to others here.

Meant to say science or spirituality and not NOT