Gurinder Singh Dhillon’s lawyer excuses him in a weird “mud platform” way

“all this Religare stuff”
Doesn’t sound much like a lawyer. And the rest of what he said is batshit insane.

Agreed. It was a bit weird. BBJ might want to start hunting for quality counsel. What a mess.

That story has existed since at least 1000 years before there was any such thing as Sikhism. It’s just a piece of old India folklore that gets retold by every sect.
If this guy is really Gurinders lawyer, it just goes to show how much Gurinder thinks his personality cult is worth. It’s one thing to use your cult to get cheap stock, but anyone with half a brain would get a lawyer who doesn’t believe in the cult. The courtroom is the last place you need mindless sycophants.

The more I think about the lawyer’s response~
😆😂🤣
This is Gurinder’s second Saturn Return for those of you familiar with that… He was appointed Master after his first Saturn return and now he’s going through the karma of the past 30 odd years… Saturn is weird.

At first I thought the reference to using bloomberg meant that gurinder was feeding the media bs to keep them busy like many business men do. After rereading it seems that guy actually meant that gurinder uses magical powers as implied by Brian. Yikes.

Jesse, you’re right. And I’m right. Because Gurinder Singh hasn’t authorized any news releases, interviews, or such in connection with this financial dealings. So the lawyer can’t be claiming that the guru is manipulating the content of these stories, because RSSB and Gurinder Singh aren’t providing any alternative facts/slants that a reporter might be tempted to embrace.
It isn’t like Trump saying “Fake news!” and then providing his own alternative reality. The lawyer didn’t address any of the actual issues involving RSSB and the guru. He just claimed that the whole thing is the guru’s way of providing spiritual uplift to disciples by disillusioning them about the physical form of the guru.

This Attorney is representing RSSB at the Australia Sanghat. Just another lone “ opinion”,.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/when-is-a-religion-not-a-religion-vegetarian-spiritual-group-in-supreme-court-fight-20170331-gvb2n7.html
Jim Sutherland

Yeah, he’s not Gurinder’s lawyer; he’s Gurinder’s rep. No lawyer would be caught dead (weird expression) saying the stuff quoted by Brian. He might however be saying stuff like this to try to help win an opinion from lawyers on whether or not RSSB is a religion…a religion headed by a hunter of souls apparently.
“RSSB’s head in Australia is Michael Cooke, a retired corporate lawyer from Perth,” according to The Age.
I was wondering…after he hunts them down, does he kill them and then eat them?

@JOE
It’s the Reality of what Christians symbolize by “Eating His flesh, . . Drinking his blood”
It is the Reality that Souls can only return by first unify with a guy Already there
Then we can enter “there” unharmed, without Scars
Everybody agrees that Aldebaran in a big star, a trillion times the Sun
but a peanut compared with The Divine, who has a xillion big bangs
in His Her Pocket
So we won’ t be burned to ashes on our way back
777
SB’s head in Australia is Michael Cooke, a retired corporate lawyer from Perth,” according to The Age.
I was wondering…after he hunts them down, does he kill them and then eat them?

@ Brian – don’t analyse too much! Heard that one before?
You are being played by someone – you will attract all sorts now.

… and the faithful can’t wrap their heads around the fact that the Guru himself has ended their fairytale – basically, they are still looney.

@ Arjuna … I left a reply for you on Sheena’s thread.

@Bombay Blonde – hi. Replied back.

Hang hang hang – stop press. This “lawyer” – doesn’t Gurinder say we are too weak to be tested – loads of karma to pay off!! So what the hell is he bumping his lips about???
I’m not sure I like this God.
Giving bed meds to suffering people is that grace??? Whilst satsanghis use the Hubble telescope to examine the man minute writing of ingredients on a biscuit packet to avoid heavy karma – they give out bad meds????

@ apologies for the bad grammar / picking up iPad Pro today so should not be making bad grammar again🤫

@ Arjuna … see, that’s just one great hypocrisy – telling the faithful to scrutinise food labels while he okays the peddling of bad meds. It’s too bad most people aren’t seeing through this.

@ Bombay blonde – hello. Yes it is and it pisses me right off.
That’s evil and they admitted it in court you said?

@ Brian – have you contacted Oliver Stone yet??? This is a “Snowden” type movie in the making????? And a bit of “The Wolf if Wall Street” chucked in!
Ps I want Seth Rogen and James Franco to play Shivinder and Malvinder Singh.

@ Arjuna … yes, charged and proven guilty. I’m so grateful to the real Almighty ( if he / she exists ) that the Japs took it to the wire. Now it’s just a matter of the last lap of the arbitration going in favour of Daichii.
( … a flick on Gurinder and the Baxy Boys ? I’d call it the The Baba Of Blunder Street. )

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ranbaxy-whistleblower-reveals-how-he-exposed-massive-pharmaceutical-fraud/
This link is disgusting!!!! Brian / get in the blower to Oliver Stone!!!

@ Bombay Blonde – I’m raging – not with meds that go to the rich and poor. The poor need hope not conmen doing that.
If he is all seeing – why didn’t he see that- then he brings one of the Singh brothers to de seva at Dera looool. Next master lol don’t think

@ Bombay blonde – last lap? Is there still a case going on?

@ Arjuna … yes, and a huge round of applause for Dinesh Thakur.

© 2013 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
First
How can an article from 2013
write about 2011-1014
Yes this stinks on all sides
and the whole affair seems a “set up”
organized by Big Pharma
and the 45M $ guy
I”m happy to have seen this
Hope the judge will see it too
77

@ 777
Have you seen the lovely movie “The Usual Suspects” ?

@ Bombay Blonde – yes he is a Too Man – brave too in bringing public

@ Bombay blonde – I meant Top Man…

@ Bombay blonde – can you imagine if not picture the scene.
Poor single parent woman who is raising a family by herself – holding down two crappy jobs and one of her children has epilepsy – and she has hope for a new drug the doctor has prescribed. And she gives the child the medicine to see minimum improvement- how her heart would break.
Whilst those two singhs with brightly coloured turbaned men are chilling on holiday and doing speeches on how to business! And one wants to be a God lol
I say lock up those morons!!! Lock up em up and throw away the keys

@Arjuna
Time will learn
At last one advantage of time
@ Bombay blonde – I meant Top Man…
You mean the 49 Million $ intruder man ?
who said the packaging was not ok ?
You admire that .?
7

“””” If he is all seeing “””””
If U want make brain cells of a guy crazy >>> give Him ALL seeing >
Can’t be taken during a nano second
It works like in the Army
on a need to know base
but perfectly
777

Initially the plants were not ok and were violating the rules,
then suddenly the meds came out to be not ok,
then suddenly they said the packaging of meds were not ok.
Are “they” ok ? Or only after money ?
Also, Daichi sold everything on a good profit to Sun Pharma already,
and after that doing arbitration to fetch more.
Whole world knew that Ranbaxy was under investigation,
and Daichi said “they didn’t tell us”. Wow.
Like “if we knew we would have paid less”.
And Sun Pharma is just sitting idle seeing all this drama,
only to buy Ranbaxy at much higher evaluation later from Daichi. Wow again.
Apparently even bigger game by the bigger pharmas
which is not even in thoughts of a commoner
who is going by the rounds of media and court trials.
Think in Silence.
~OI

@ one Initiated – hello hope you are well.
Wonder who is playing who with Ranbaxy? Lol.
It’s all fun those on here – wink wink

One Initiated, your comment made no sense, but Ranbaxy pled guilty and the FDA banned their dirty meds in USA. The rest of the story is sort of meaningless except that it adds layers to the extremely strong evidence that not only is Gurinder Dhillon not god, but that he’s not even as honest as I am.

Arjuna, thanks.
doing good on every front 😉- too much consumed these days.
Hope you are keeping good health as well.
Jesse,
yes, I can understand that,
it will not make sense to you as of now… later, I think yes!

Jesse
Ranbaxy pled guilty
We all know how THAT works
7

“Ranbaxy pled guilty
We all know how THAT works”
Well, it often means that they knew they’d been caught and had no chance to defend the accusations to they’re attempting to get reduced punishment.
And One Initiated, I mean that your comment was absolute rubbish. Both from the view that you don’t think a filthy place of production would produce filthy dangerous meds (very 3rd world of you) and because you seem to think that nothing associated with Gurinder is ever bad. It’s always someone else.
You know the old saying about the guy who gets kicked out of every bar he goes to?

@ one initiated – health is better – I am running now so looking for to more fun with the undead 🧟‍♀️
Glad you are well

Arjuna,
Awesome !! Keep it up and hope you’ll have a great healthy time ahead.
Jesse,
I never go to the bar, so probably that’s for you – ha ha.
Sun Pharma gave huge profits to Daichi,
Since Sun is also an Indian multinational pharma,
they did know everything about investigation,
which means Sun disregarded both the arbitration and investigation,
and purchased Ranbaxy on even higher evaluation.
If you apply your brain logically (if you’ve not left it at the bar),
you’d be able to connect the dots.

Arjuna, just wondering what the 🧟‍♀️ means?
Just googled it and it comes up with:
“The Woman Facepalming emoji is a sequence of the 🤦 Face Palm and ♀ Female Sign emojis.”
Being a woman I find that strange since you are a male?

Oops just realised there is the ongoing gender issue… sorry

“Sun disregarded both the arbitration and investigation,
and purchased Ranbaxy on even higher evaluation”
One Initiated, until proven otherwise, I’m with Jesse on this issue. But if your facts are correct then I totally agree with you that this is a good point.

@ Jen
Hahahaha ! You’ll have to forgive me for my borderline ( obsessive ) disdain for gender biasing and stereotyping. It’s a shrug that I can’t shake off my shoulders. I guess it comes from working with too many women … 🙂
Better than being obsessed with the speck of egg in a chocolate wafer.

@ One Initiated, Jesse, PJ, Arjuna … ( in random order … )
I’m waiting for the Singapore arbitration award. Let’s see whether Salve can salvage anything. Seems unlikely. Unless, through the doors of Trikuti, Charan emerges and can somehow convince the bench that this is nothing but some financial karma cleansing and just dismisses everyone … just like he sent the cockroach he accidentally quashed under his jutti straight to Sach Khand.

and purchased Ranbaxy on even higher evaluation”
These writings should be more precise
Date and prices
and ( like in Patent Laws) where and when then, . . there were publications
Even a 1000 samples village publication or a archive_www page
is sufficient in a court of Law to prove it was
public knowledge
7
This is how big companies prevent compatitors to take patents
They Spy and then secretly micro_publish
£and the inventor sees his invention refused
PS
I didn’t know the Diaichi claim is still in court

Dear PJ,
For Sun Pharma, it doesn’t even matter now what’s the outcome of the court,
Sun is already controlling the operations now.
If you guys are still skeptical about the misdeeds by the big pharmas,
search google “why Hydergine discontinued?”
(the same drug mentioned by 777)
Earlier Novartis and Sun both were manufacturing this drug for years,
it’s outcome was commendable in helping the restoration of brain cells,
worked wonder in many cases.
Novartis and Sun both were selling it for dirt cheap prices.
Now all of a sudden an issue from FDA about banning this drug.
If you will go through the reports, you will find absurdest of the reasons for banning the drug.
This was produced and manufactured by Novartis and SUN as generic medicine.
What happened after the ban ?
The manufacturing rights for this drug by Novartis were sold to another company,
not known what has happened afterwards,
If some sources to be believed (I can not count on them thus not mentioning),
it’s available in a totally different name and accessibility
with an extremely high price tag.
Dear Blonde,
I wanted to ask some questions:
You named yourself after a beer, do you still drink ?
How can the meditation work if you still drink ?
OR – you don’t sit on meditation at all ?
Singapore is as influenced by Japan as Hong Kong by China,
and Alaska by USA. Don’t you smell biasing ?
Why would a Japanese company file an arbitration case
against an Indian company in a Singapore’s International court ?
How about if the case was in Israel or Russia ?
Dear 777,
Good point.
Sun is too big a company and not easy to get hold of their Balance Sheet,
to get the exact figures.
But, I’ve been following this whole episode since quite long
however, to me it sounded and looked suspicious from day one.
Daiichi bought it for < $2 Bn whereas Sun bout it from Daiichi for ~ $4 Bn (debt + stock) We can go through this report/news here: https://www.livemint.com/Companies/tvbrlhX1YGdm7GshBC44VL/Sun-Pharma-completes-Ranbaxy-merger-shares-jump.html
I don’t believe it’s in the capacity of us online readers
to even understand the whole game when they talk in billions of dollars,
and finding ways to double them up.

@O I
Thank You for that link
It’s a whole new ball game now
“”” Sun Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd, India’s most valuable drug maker, has completed the $3.2 billion acquisition of Ranbaxy Laboratories Ltd after almost a year of navigating the regulatory gauntlet to create the world’s fifth-biggest generic pharmaceutical company by revenue. “””
It’s always the same
Novartis had Vit E mixed with Vanille é Chocolate
Long ago I phoned their LAN in Basel
Very friendly the chief explained to me that the Vit E
works much better when taken with fat
They had a specialprotocol, he said, to bind even longer
Then Bayer bought Novartis
They had heard about the excellent anti HIV qualities of that pil ( EPHYNAL )
They took it from the market world wide
and like with Hydergine no-where to find
aand came with so called great invented anti-HIV ( Aids bringer)
30 times more expensive
Worse even the GHB story
This was since 1930 a great anti stress remedy with doses 10 mgr
Next they lobbied the media
that this was a rape drug, almost impossible because it is so very salty
The real rape pil is ROHYPNOL
This is the base of their infecting the whole planet with their filthy SSRI pils
home of the school-shootings, the copilote suicide with 230 passengers killed
and now the worst which is vaccins
Pasteurs vaccins were very good with One death p/million babies and 10 Autists
Only for economic reasons they made a longer time / experation date
Now the One is Hundred and the 10 is 10,000
Peace?
77
I’m sure there are many more stories, killer-stories
they make Ranbaxy a kindergarten fairy tail

I come to read this blog out of curiosity after it was mentioned in Bloomberg article. I thought of sharing some facts about Daiichi Ranbaxy deal and then deal with Sun Pharma.
https://www.business-standard.com/article/markets/how-daiichi-lost-rs-6-034-crore-in-ranbaxy-u-turn-115042200927_1.html
Clearly shows how Daiichi lost money in dollar and yen terms. And yes they made approximately 200 cr in INR terms over 5 years, given the inflation/cost of capital in India, they actually lost a lot in terms of INR as well. This also does not include the settlement amount they paid to FDA for which they took Singh brother to arbitration in Singapore.
Now with regards to arbitration, Singh brothers would have agreed to an arbitration seat at the time of selling the company. Its a normal practice to choose an independent territory. Its not that Daiichi can randomly take them to Singapore arbitration.
Once the award was given, Singh brothers challenged it in Indian courts and lost both in High Court and Supreme Court. So now they are back in Singapore to challenge again, the last possible venue. If Singapore is so biased, then why did they loose in India is the question people need to ask who say Singapore arbitration was biased and why did in first place they agreed to Singapore arbitration when selling the company.
Sometimes its good to look at things objectively rather then spreading conspiracy theories.

@ Sandeep … I endorse your view, a hundred percent. Singapore was agreed upon, mutually, by both parties. As you’ve pointed out correctly, the High Court and Supreme Court have both given their verdict, that the award is applicable in India. In fact, you probably know that the High Court judge had reserved his decision for months.
( I was worried that he was trying to be swung. ) But he ruled against the Singh Brothers and the Supreme Court didn’t even take a month after that to endorse the High Court’s decision.

@ One Initiated, I’m replying blow by blow …
You named yourself after a beer, do you still drink ?
I don’t drink beer, but I do look forward to a couple of glasses of a good red wine over the weekends. It’s pretty normal across the world.
How can the meditation work if you still drink ?
Well, my ” path ” or if I’m on one, is the path of bettering myself as a person in the here and now. I don’t need to meditate to better myself. In fact, let me go so far as to say that active self reflection and watching how I respond to situations in everyday life is a longer, deeper and harder practice than the RS mantra meditation. I’ll take it a step further … I’d rather do some volunteer work than meditate. I’ve met God in the eyes of street children.
Whatever I need to know about God is already within me. I figured, if I do the right things and help people along the way, this life or an afterlife will turn out fine. I don’t need the crutches of faith.
RS meditation was working well on making me dull and I’m a sucker to keep myself sharp, so I quit.
OR – you don’t sit on meditation at all ?
How do you define meditation ? I get completely absorbed at whatever is at hand, that’s meditation to me.

Sandeep,
You appears to be, like many others, conditioned with what you’ve read,
but not trying understanding between the lines – which is never written.
Do you validate the claims of Daiichi – “the didn’t tell us”
And that Sun was ok for that ?
Printing more numerical data here,
will only help to those who are open to perceive the facts,
and not those who are prejudiced by the media.
For example if you’ve read this one:
https://www.businesstoday.in/moneytoday/stocks/ranbaxy-acquisition-good-for-sun-pharma-shareholders-experts/story/205526.html … Ranbaxy was evaluated 2.2 times.
excerpt:
“We believe this is a good acquisition for Sun Pharma as it will help it fill therapeutic gaps in the US, get better access to emerging markets and strengthen presence in the domestic market.”
And this is no surprise because the forces of the world, have always troubled the proceedings of the Masters. Probably labelling them as tax implications in this era sounds more understandable.
Blonde,
I know and surprising was the response by Apex court.
The Supreme court said “We will not interfere”.
Thanks for providing the answers.
” I don’t need to meditate to better myself” – none does, it was only to know myself – of how good (or how bad) I am 😀 i.e. the actual me – not the body.
If you can respond more, will allow me to better understand (I am just so curious to know):
Before you did quit,
did you try it at 3 AM for 2.5 hours a day 40 days at a stretch ?

Dear 777,
Those were exceptional accounts of pharmaceuticals.
Thanks for sharing them here.
I went through some research on them,
and I would say that what I’ve found in the results is just horrendous.
This is so inhuman.
As said in the IT and Computers Industry, the biggest anti-virus companies,
are the creators of the most complex viruses.
They compete each other not by making the best anti-virus,
but by making the best virus and that how fast and badly it can corrupt the systems.
After few months, mostly only one of the anti-virus provider their software upgraded to handle those advanced viruses.
I need to search my very age old hard drive backups,
but I do have a concrete proof of this if anyone wants it.
If anyone’s willing to try (alert: system hazard) – you can DM me and I can explain how to confirm this.
This is my first hand experience.
In my young age I used to do these experiments. And what I found only one and only one anti-virus was able to detect and successfully recover files being corrupted by that virus,
later other viruses were able to detect the infection but never able to recover the files.
Ever heard of key based reversible encryption algorithms which requires the hashing key for decryption.
The negative energies of this world are much much more complex than they appear.

@ O I
What to expect
Soon “good air” will be on sale
777
Thanks for checking out

@OI,
Please see my response below.
Sandeep,
You appears to be, like many others, conditioned with what you’ve read,
but not trying understanding between the lines – which is never written.
I agree i am a very simple person who cannot read between the lines so i then rely on pure numbers for forming my opinion.
Do you validate the claims of Daiichi – “the didn’t tell us”
Daiichi’s claim always has been that they were not informed the complete extent of issues being investigated by FDA. They have never said that they were not aware of FDA investigation.
And that Sun was ok for that ?
Sun bought the company only after FDA had settled the issues with FDA and had paid the fine so yes Sun was ok to buy a company that had was not being investigated by FDA.
Printing more numerical data here,
will only help to those who are open to perceive the facts,
and not those who are prejudiced by the media.
I printed some numerical data which shows Daiichi made losses. Since you also say that numerical data will only help those who are open to facts, why dont you punch holes in that numerical data and prove your statement correct that Daiichi made lots of money from the deal. Just data and no subjective comments about reading between the lines. If you can prove through numerical data that Daiichi made lots of money from this deal, i will ask the moderator to delete my posts and also apologize. But again, please use verified data for your rational.
For example if you’ve read this one:
https://www.businesstoday.in/moneytoday/stocks/ranbaxy-acquisition-good-for-sun-pharma-shareholders-experts/story/205526.html … Ranbaxy was evaluated 2.2 times.
A company being evaluated at 2.2 times its annual turnover does not mean anything.
excerpt:
“We believe this is a good acquisition for Sun Pharma as it will help it fill therapeutic gaps in the US, get better access to emerging markets and strengthen presence in the domestic market.”
Yes its a good deal for Sun because 1). They got a company that now had no pending FDA investigation that was ongoing. 2) They got a company whose value had increased only by 1% in 5 years whereas even a simple investment in bank deposit in Indian would have increased by 50-60% in the same time period.
I look forward to your numerical analysis. For a simple brain like me, please dont talk about read between the lines, just pure numbers. You yourself said – Printing more numerical data here,
will only help to those who are open to perceive the facts. I am very open to understand the facts that are backed by numbers.

Sorry one typo
And that Sun was ok for that ?
Sun bought the company only after FDA had settled the issues with FDA and had paid the fine so yes Sun was ok to buy a company that had was not being investigated by FDA.
I should read
Sun bought the company only after Daiichi had settled the issues with FDA and had paid the fine so yes Sun was ok to buy a company that had was not being investigated by FDA.

Dear Sandeep,
I can understand the whole energy of the media is very negative right now,
and it’s very easy for anyone to get dragged away with false claims,
specially when mis-presented by such big names of the Industries.
What all I’ve been saying isn’t that hard to understand !
Only if the those who are against the Masters have all the reasons to spread negativity
around RSSB and HIS proceedings and literally any remotely connected matter,
they will ignore these informations,
And only rely on what the big energies of this world have to add.
Even if they are adding venom in the air – still OK – because it sounds correct in numerical analysis.
Would you mind reading this article:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/pharmaceuticals/daiichi-availed-rs-8000-crore-monetary-benefits-while-it-had-stake-in-ranbaxy-singh-brothers/articleshow/57723225.cms
Important Excerpt:
“Japanese pharmaceutical firm had availed monetary benefits to the tune of Rs 8,000 crore during the time it bought and sold Ranbaxy. ”
Isn’t it a simple enough english to understand ?

This is a statement from Singh brother which they have not been able to prove. Once again a humble request, share factual numbers and not just statements from one party. Give the analysis and details.

Have some shame Sandeep.

@ One Initiated … the answer is yes, but not just for 40 days, much longer. More importantly, why are you telling Sandeep to have some shame ? Has he pricked your bubble ? Your Guru-con is unjustifiable to a rational mind, please save your defence for a corporate fraud that is not linked to feudal practices and a pseudo spirituality.

@ One Initiated … one, I understand that you’re initiated and two, I can imagine that this must be hugely unsettling for you, just like it is for parts of my family. On another note, I don’t identify with duality … I am my body, I am my hair, I am my thoughts and actions and everything that adds up to being me. These dichotomies are designed and taught to confuse, I canceled my subscription a long, long time ago. Best decision ever.

http://fortune.com/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine/
( Quoted from the article above : Thakur knew the drugs weren’t good. They had high impurities, degraded easily, and would be useless at best in hot, humid conditions. They would be taken by the world’s poorest patients in sub-Saharan Africa, who had almost no medical infrastructure and no recourse for complaints. The injustice made him livid. Ranbaxy executives didn’t care, says Kathy Spreen, and made little effort to conceal it. In a conference call with a dozen company executives, one brushed aside her fears about the quality of the AIDS medicine Ranbaxy was supplying for Africa. “Who cares?” he said, according to Spreen. “It’s just blacks dying.” )
Thank you Dinesh Thakur, for having your heart in the right place.

For 49 $ Million
many will invent
the most horrible tremendous evil
Name please
Who said : “Who cares”
and who heard that
and when ?
Mrs Spreen Thakur ?
Please anybody here , don’t accuse without basics
don’t slander , gossip, hearsay
It makes giant neg. karmas
77

Dear Blonde,
“Has he pricked your bubble”
Either you have not consciously gone through the above discussions,
OR you were not able to comprehend the articles.
Sandeep has failed badly.

@ 777 : Please read up on Dinesh Thakur and the hell he went through. If his moral high ground was up for sale, he would have struck an internal deal with the Singh Brothers and none of us here would be discussing this.

@ One Initiated : Sandeep is getting under your skin with the facts he’s presenting that are out in the public domain. You are on a shaming and failing trip because he’s making sense. You ( and 777 ) either post some counter arguments and articles that challenge the information posted above, or just go back to your meditation.

Blonde,
You are trying so much to behave like an intelligent person, you are only sounding more stupid.
As I said, only those who actually wants to know the facts will understand,
those who are already wasting their lives against the Masters,
can not even understand a simple equation like 1 + 1 = 2
Sandeep would be pretending and you probably actually didn’t understand the latest articles I posted,
which clearly depicts that this has been a clear win win situation for Daichi and Sun.

@OI,
We look at things differently. None of the articles you posted is backed by any numerical logic.
The second article you posted was nothing but a submission by Singh brothers to Delhi High Court. Since you are the most intelligent person here and I respect you for that, why don’t you also share the courts verdict on that submission made by Singh brothers. May be that will help less intelligent people like me to understand.
Cheers,
Sandeep

@ One Initiated : How does one behave like an intelligent person while sounding stupid ? It’s an oxymoron. Please do us all a favour, just post some relevant, numerical facts that are in the public domain that either point at some kind misappropriation in Daichii’s deal with Sun, or any other facts that can prove Dinesh Thakur to be a liar.
We aren’t discussing valuations, or profits. This isn’t a discussion about whether Daichii profited, or didn’t. This is a discussion about your Guru approving the sale of a company that was sold on a scaffolding of fraudulent data.
Unless you are privy to a magic potion that you are keeping safe with you to take with you to Singapore and bail the Brothers out, let’s focus on the articles out there that point to some serious con.

Tiny Question in the middle of bad & incomplete answers
Just one exact timeline would be sufficient
HOW COME an indian ex_judge presides a Singapore commission
Each comment I smell more dirt
7
also
you never commented on the judas reward of 49 $ million
–

@ 777 : First off, why don’t you and One Initiated get over words like ” bad ” and ” shame ” and ” fail ” and other juvenile descriptives of frustration. Please cite and paste accurate references.
Dinesh Thakur filed a complaint in the US under the False Claims Act ( FCA ) also known as a Whistleblower’s Law. This enables private individuals to file cases against government contractors if they have information that the contractor knowingly submitted fraudulent claims to the government. So, the US government investigated Dinesh Thakur’s complaint and took over the case when it found sufficient basis to proceed. It is also common industry practice for a whistleblower to get anywhere between 1 and 18 percent of the fine. If you want to verify this, just Google and read up. Your ” fake news ” comments remind me of Trump. Sorry.
How come an Indian ex-judge presides over a Singapore commission ? That’s like asking why Sundar Pichai heads Google and Satya Nadella heads Microsoft. It’s 2018. We live in a cosmopolitan, multi-racial world.

Don’t U see that U blowed your cover , Sir ?
7

I was in Searock Hotel at the beach in Bombay
The lassies were good
and that’s all !

@ 777 : You are too, too funny … I like it ! Cheers, have a good weekend … 🙂

@Bombay Blonde- you are absolutely right that One Initiated has no data to provide from credible sources like Stock Exchange filings, Courts of India etc. And that is why he has resorted to calling people names and advising me to be ashamed of myself.
@777 below link will lead you to an article that give you the time timeline of events as well.
https://www.ndtv.com/business/daiichi-sankyo-may-lead-to-more-trouble-for-malvinder-mohan-singh-shivinder-mohan-singh-ranbaxy-1825742
With regards to your comment about Indian judge on panel of Singapore arbitration, the way it works is that that each arbitration center/seat approves leading jurists/subject matter experts from the world to be able to preside over an arbitration at that center. The panel in this case comprised of three panelists, one nominated by Singh brothers, one by Daiichi and one elected by mutual consent. Retd. Justice Ahmedi was nominated by Singh brothers.
Fraud/Misrepresentation has been a culture at Ranbaxy and its later offshoot Fortis.
Extract from an article about over charging at Fortis of items that are price controlled by Government. Fortis was fined for this.
“Regarding the scheduled formulations which are under the ambit of price control, the NPPA said the hospital charged up to 343 per cent from the family of Adya. The per unit procurement price of Tranemic by the hospital stood at Rs 15.75 while it was billed at Rs 69.77 per unit to the family.”
Link to the article
https://www.hindustantimes.com/gurugram/fortis-overcharged-dengue-patient-s-family-as-high-as-1700-nppa/story-zdB9BTbD2T7AIuuhofF9AM.html
Another extract from August 10 court hearing showing how critical information was not provided in court submissions by the brothers
Shakdher asked why the Singhs hadn’t disclosed the existence of a top-up agreement pertaining to the brothers’ shares in Fortis pledged to various banks when they had disclosed the value of their unencumbered assets to the court last year. While the brothers did not divest the unencumbered shares following their disclosure, the top-up agreement allowed banks to encumber more shares if the value of the Fortis stock dropped below a certain threshold, their lawyer said.
“How can you file an affidavit that only speaks half-truth?” Shakdher asked.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/delhi-high-court-directs-singh-brothers-to-disclose-foreign-bank-accounts-properties/articleshow/65356948.cms
Have a good weekend everyone.
Cheers,
Sandeep

@Sandeep
So good our judgements will not count
I had read both links already
plus the CV of the judge which gave
a good impression.
We, . . Satsangis we do what is in our power
and leave the rest to the Lord
and the Lord does what’s best for us !
Kal is not interested if we will suffer ueberhaubt
Yes BB
you had so much info in ‘n hour, except “Who cases” . . ,
that you seemed the Mr. 49 $ Million himself
If that’s the case : Pls Count your future blessings
7

@Yes BB
you had so much info in ‘n hour, except “Who cares” . . ,
that you seemed the Mr. 49 $ Million himself
If that’s the case : Pls Count your future blessings

@ 777 : Man, what’s up ? Seriously. I’m keeping it simple and light hearted because Sandeep has already drawn attention to the pertinent facts. What else can I help you with ? What’s the point of cluttering the thread with more of the same ? You either post some counter arguments or go build another mud platform.
( Guru’s coming to inspect tomorrow, you make sure you have the right clay. )

On the meeting of dawn and dusk,
you will be ashamed – not by anyone else, by yourself.
I’ve given you the banana and I won’t peel it for you. Do it yourself you lazy fella.
“How does one behave like an intelligent person while sounding stupid ”
Exactly like you did above 😉
“about whether Daichii profited, or didn’t. ”
Blonde, you grossly dead wrong. I am sure your friend Sandeep will deny this as well.
It is actually the base. Read everything again and then again.

@OI,
It’s now below my dignity to keep responding to you.
Cheers and good luck.
Sandeep

@ One Initiated : You obviously have no counter facts to offer. Isn’t it strange that I don’t meditate and don’t feel the need to call you names, but your meditation hasn’t even taught you how to tackle trivia … 🙂
@ Sandeep : Thank you for posting the links and arguments above. Hundreds who are on the fringes of the faith read this blog regularly. While the faithful like to gloat about labyrinthine astral regions, it’s important to present some on-the-ground realities. What RS Satsangis are failing to see, is that Gurinder is actually setting them free.

Well I am not here to teach you the basic accountancy,
I’ve given you clear proofs where it mentions the Sun’s which you pretend to not being able to comprehend.
I mean that’s literally daylight hypocrisy, you can believe one statement and not another and both are statements to you – not the proofs Daichi showed you on the dinner table. The post of Sun acquisitions contains all factual figures in details and you are asking me to put them here again. Wow.
It’s easy to wake up a sleeping person,
and impossible to wake up a person who is pretending to sleep.
I am so glad to know you about your dignity Sandeep and well mannered behaviour BB,
please and if you follow it everywhere and to everyone and specially towards the Masters.
it will be helpful for you in the longer term – when all hell break loose.

@ One Initiated : The only hell that’s breaking loose on my end is the struggle to straddle multiple worlds at work. There’s no other hell awaiting me, don’t bother with your warnings.
Regarding Sun and Daichii, I’ve read everything that’s out there and I’ve read your recommendations as well. Thank you, One. What peeving you is that Daichii has somehow managed to restructure and rebuild itself and that should be enough to excuse Ranbaxy for misrepresenting clinical generic drug data.
I want to keep it simple for the rest of the readers. This isn’t about ” Big Pharma ” truths and lies, this is about God In Human Form approving the sale of a company that falsified data, violated CGMP ( Current Good Manufacturing Practice ) regulations like they didn’t exist and sold medications that were potentially life threatening.
Caution is in the wind, One. GSD should’ve seen this coming, cheating catches up with all of us.

Blonde,
In-fact I got amazed when someone subjected your anonymous beer name
as Blondy and you were going overboard.
Oh My MY – what’s there in the name – Blondy (everything, even if it’s anonymous beer).
“What peeving you” – really – who told you that ? 😉
You can’t imagine, I am spending just my 1c here and having a good time,
(kudos to Brian for managing this fun space).
you think those funny name calling to you and Danseep was frustration ?
then I would say: Why so serious ?

@ One Initiated : Your feeble attempts at intimidation we so succulent that they’ve been fashioned into a new blog post, congratulations. It must feel good to be the center of attention because you really haven’t posted anything of significance that refutes your Guru’s shady business cocktail. So, you’re just like GSD – in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons. Well done. Now, pass me the champagne … 🙂
I will continue to stand up to typecasting and stereotyping, even if it is directed at a persona. You would agree, there are always smarter ways to open dialogue with another. I laughed, but only a little.

* were so succulent
@ One Initiated : Let’s take this conversation over to the other thread and let you have your day in the sun.

OMG – you are so touchy, Blonde,
Ease it up. Don’t you feel so heavy at the crown with this load !!
I am on this blog since quite long now.
Whether believers or non believers,
I’ve never come across any commenter here who has a tendency to insult women/men particularly.
It’s neither a feminist nor a non-feminist blog,
in that respect it’s a very neutral place I would say.
I have not found if any special importance is ever given to any gender here.
What would an individual’s gender has to do with Spirituality anyway?
The altercations only revolves around the difference in opinions on spirituality.
I don’t think these types of things even needs to be explicitly mentioned,
these are quite intrinsically understood.
“feel good to be the centre of attention” where?
In the middle of a bunch of Master abusers? Never Ever Never.
Cheers – non alcoholic 😉 – so no champagne, only Lassi !!

Dear Michael Cooke
Fraud is fraud.
The Singh brothers, along with Sabnam Singh Dillon (Baba Ji’s wife) and Sunhil Godwhani, engaged in purchasing companies on credit, then leveraging their projected valuation for loans used to buy more companies and land, making loan payments by shuffling loans, and giving loans to themselves that have yet to be repaid.
They overextended their credit speculating on the growing realty market, letting ambition cloud judgment.
I’m a devout Satsangi. And I love Baba Ji very much. And tonight I’m heartbroken, because I see it very clearly.
My meditation has sharpened my understanding, not dulled it.
So when the Singh brothers write that they wish to restore their pride, it’s clear they haven’t learned the lesson of humility. Their pride is the problem. Their intentions were fine: The ones they paraded about and believed to be true. Their hidden ambitions were their undoing.
They didn’t come forth. They were exposed. Years of shuffling money, siphoning money has been exposed. I’m sure they meant well. But that’s how corruption works, subtly. You find yourself hiding things you know are wrong rather than being honest and making them right.
Corruption has its hands untied when you stop listening to your own inner voice, when you stop meditating.
How do people skilled in hiding their actions repent and do the opposite?
By blaming other corrupt people? LOL!
No. Integrity doesn’t work that way. They left the Path long ago.
Their crime wasn’t a one-time thing. It happened over a series of decisions over at least two decades to cut corners to leverage growth, to grow assets at the expense of service and quality; grow personal wealth instead of solidify company and service performance, over and over, year over year.
The greatest investment fraud in India’s history and the largest Food and Drug Administration penalty in the history of the United States both at the hands of the Singh brothers, under the tutelage of Gurindar’s chosen mentor for them, Sunil, with the support of Gurindar’s wife, Subnam. Yes they all became famous. Infamous.
This shame will forever be connected to Baba Gurindar Singh Ji and Radha Soami Satsang Beas. If he wasn’t famous before, he is now. And this will be something he will never be able to recover from. It serves no purpose to cheat, nor to allow that to proliferate. No Saint has ever advocated any such behavior.
Michael, we don’t need explanations / excuses. These guys who wanted fame got it. They are infamous, and now, so is the Master. Over one hundred years of toil; Jaimal Singh’s careful and loving development of his beloved Sawan Singh and the foundation of the Dera; Sawan Singh’s lifetime of devotion and toil to His master, to the colony and the disciples; Jagat Singh’s life’s work and love; Maharaji’s decades of work and love, building free hospitals, giving his entire life, and all his time to the Sangat; all destroyed in a career tainted by ambition over land speculation.
We should have seen it coming when Baba Ji started acquiring lands all over the world. They were donations. What corruption could be connected to it?
But why build such large sites, built for a crowd that might only be seen once in many years, and which today, mostly sit empty?
But by linking RSSB investments to these various Religare companies, and those to Fortis and other larger acquisitions, the valuation of these donated lands became the paper collateral for an obscene number of unsupportable loans. The very largess of their value was the irresistible Tolkien’s ring.
And then efforts to sell the lands to help pay back the loans were thwarted, because in India, donated land cannot readily be sold. And as land values softened, depts exploded, and bankruptcy abounds in truth, though not quite yet on paper.
Baba Ji knew better. Material wealth is meaningless. Sad beyond words.
Inner wealth, inner peace of mind is everything. When was the last time Baba Ji actually sat in meditation and submitted all this to Maharaji?
Divided interested, and lost focus. The sword has slipped from his hands.
The kingdom razed to the ground by the nefarious and secret actions of Gurindar’s closest relatives, including his wife. His own ambition, taken to corrupt ends by those near him who loved him and were, in their eyes, emulating Him.
Gone.
But not the Practice. And not the Truth of the Inner Realms and of the Spirit.
But that mantle will now be passed to someone else, whom life and nature has already been grooming for the purpose. Someone who values those things more than life itself.
I look forward to meeting them.

@ One Initiated : I’m uncertain whether your seeming inability to put things in context is just the way you’re wired or is it yet another lame deflection for having no real argument to offer for Gurinder’s misadventures. Regardless, it’s getting boring, you’re dragging this thread down the rabbit hole and into a pile of nitpicking dissection that the others here have no interest in. ( It’s like creating your own little mud platform and jumping in it to keep yourself entertained. ) In fact, if you’d use half your set of tools to pin Gurinder to his words and actions, you’ll open a far headier concoction than my namesake beer. Your friend Spence has seen the light, I applaud him for his insights.
Now, you need to come back with an even better argument to prove that your Master is squeaky clean. It’s piling up One, and it’s more important than me or my beer. That said, if you still insist on having something to say to us infedels, heretics and Guru slayers, the very people that your Master warns you against … I suggest you do post some real evidence that absolves Gurinder of his wrongdoings. Until then, spare me your shenanigans.

But Spence, if they were using RSSB properties as collateral for loans, which then needed to be paid back, wouldn’t they have tried to sell some of them?
Or have you heard suggestion that they tried and were unable to get a good valuation?
I’m not suggesting you’re wrong btw, just wondering why you’re going with this theory?
I’m guessing you and other readers are in touch with other prominent Satsangis, I wonder what the consensus to all this is!

Hi PJ
You wrote
“But Spence, if they were using RSSB properties as collateral for loans, which then needed to be paid back, wouldn’t they have tried to sell some of them?”
They did exactly that but ran into trouble..
https://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/himachal/radha-soami-sect-seeks-nod-to-sell-excess-land/461291.html
” I’m not suggesting you’re wrong btw, just wondering why you’re going with this theory?”
The Luthra and Luthra audit demonstrates their limitations on giving loans to business entities, which they also owned, without meeting any collateral requirements, violating business requirements.
When this came to light, they started using their own assets as collateral, basically double dipping. Most of those were Religare, where all RSSB holdings reside. RSSBs valuation is based on the lands.
https://www.livemint.com/Companies/qtfOwrskdEFz1TTfU7Ci6K/How-the-Singh-brothers-squandered-their-business-legacy.html

Hi PJ
Here is the Luthra and Luthra report of mismanagement at Fortis by the Singh Brothers, basically loaning themselves and Sabnam Singh owned companies money with no repayment, floating new loans on their own collateral (those same holdings) to cover loan payments on older loans,
In part to themselves…
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/luthra-luthra-report-points-to-systemic-lapses-override-of-controls-in-fortis-under-singh-bros-2640211.html
And also here
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/fortis-gave-rs-445-crore-to-promoter-companies-despite-management-objections/articleshow/64758741.cms
And also
https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/fortis-valuation-may-take-hit-bidders-revisit-offers-over-law-firm-report-118061301292_1.html
And here..
https://www.indiainfoline.com/article/news-top-story/fortis-delays-q4-numbers-again-due-to-luthra-and-luthra-report-118061100227_1.html
And here, too…
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/fortis-to-initiate-legal-action-against-singhs/articleshow/64771149.cms

Hi PJ
One more point. Healthcare, in particular hospitals, run on a narrow margin. There would be no business reason for a hospital system to become a bank, unless they were trying to keep smaller hospitals or vendors supplying them afloat. That was my initial view when I read the details originally posted regarding the loans.
But as it turned out these were loans to their own business entities, loans to their Religare buddies, and Sabnam Singh Dillon owned companies in particular. It was a scam.
Shivander claims he had nothing to do with it. He Claims to have founded Fortis.
But Shivander had never run a hospital department, knew nothing of Hospital operations and had no record of helping Healthcare institutions run better.
In short he bought the job as a financier, land speculation, and used the company for personal financial reasons.

Hi PJ
So where did the Singh Brothers get the money to buy their way into Healthcare?
The Sale of Ranbaxy.
And that valuation was bard in hiding the investigation by the United States FDA into falsified records and adulterated drugs, all to cut costs.
Which resulted in the largest penalty by the Food and Drug Administration in the history of the United States.
Short course, Shivindar, Mohindar, Sunil, Sabnam and Gurindar are, Financially, the Indian Enron.

And PJ, one final note re: land valuation…
You had asked: “Or have you heard suggestion that they tried and were unable to get a good valuation?”
The fuel for their poor judgement in over extending their margins to give themselves loans and to buy more businesses and properties was the short term explosion in land values. That fueled substantial speculation: Not only over-leveraging but reckless short term buying and selling. The rise in property values in India fueled intense speculation. But as with the housing bubble, at some point the house of cards crumbles. Because, like the fictional Gorden Gekko, the Singh brothers added no value to the actual operations they bought and sold, but used them for short term asset and land value gains, and ultimately, put these companies at substantial risk.
https://www.livemint.com/Companies/RP8cT7bWnRW07AXcuKaDHL/Real-Estate-Land-prices-stuck-at-rates-lower-than-or-same-a.html
and here..
https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/pharma/lessons-for-india-inc-from-the-singh-brothers/story/273510.html

When the Ranbaxy penalty hit, this shook the board at Fortis and that triggered the audit by Luthra and Luthra.
And eventually the Singh Brothers expulsion. Fortis realised that with the Singh Brothers running loose, the penalty world be paid by more shell games at Fortis ‘ expense.

And I don’t write these things easily.
Brian, these are my days of personal trauma.
Over thirty years on this path…..
Most of my life…

Actually since 1978…40 years to be exact…

Spencer, if I remember correctly you thought the accusations were dubious earlier. Now you’ve accepted the validity of them.
But also if my memory is correct, you have had some amount of edifying inner experiences.
Now, in that situation, would it not be a bit liberating to know that though this man is involved in things you can’t accept as ethical, you were still able to experience the bliss of meditation that others can’t find?
I’d be happy and just keep meditating. Consider the new guru to be a fraud and continue with Charans dhyan.

Spencer
Holy toledo Spencer! Not easy coming to terms with all this. That sharp mind of yours looks to have uncovered more facts and clarified things. A heartfelt and well spelt out post on Sept 3rd. I felt for you when I read it.
Still wonder where this all leaves us and how things (the potential great razing) will unfold. I still see large contradictions between what Gurinder S says to the likes of Osho i.e. the big Oneness talk which I relate to as a result of my own experience and of course all this unethical business/behavioural stuff. Bizarre.
How many folk are actually following all this and starting to take off the rose coloured glasses?
What about the 30,000 crowd at Haynes Park where Osho spoke a while back?
Are the people commenting here just part of a wee alternate reality bubble?

Blonde,
Spence, being one of the seniors here, is a friend, but not my Master.
Spence thinks what he thinks – I don’t talk his talk.
There are other believers as well who have gone astray,
And I am not necessarily in agreement with them all on everything they say.
Per the above comment(s) of Spence,
he appears to have badly fallen in the grip of the mind.
Spence,
Irrespective of whatever that is to come out of above,
what the True Master accomplishes is for the betterment of the planet,
including the non-initiates and non-believers as well,
with the thinking and planning of decades ahead from now.
You wrote:
“This shame will forever be connected to Baba Gurindar Singh Ji and Radha Soami Satsang Beas”
For the followers of the mind, till date,
which Master didn’t have shame associated with Him.
The True Master is the true “Beparwah”
the one who doesn’t care what you think of HIS actions.
HE isn’t here to care for the shaming of this world including the disciples.
What HE has shown me, there is not a slightest and minutest of doubt left,
Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj is the current True Master,
and carrying HIS task progressively in a manner which can not be perceived if you allow your mind to take over your soul.
And after all it’s not easy to remain firm with your faith,
specially when mind serves such delicious conspiracies to fall prey.
Lots of Love and Shabd to everyone.

Hi One!
Everything you wrote about what a True Master does is noble and wonderful. I would agree.
A true Master would not embezzle funds, or encourage their cousins to embezzle funds year after year, and funnel those into their wife’s companies.
That’s not a True Sat Guru!
A very powerful Guru, one with great spiritual powers might do such a thing. A corrupted Guru might do this.
But not a Sat Guru.
One destined to be a Sat Guru but who became lost in material gain could do such a thing.
But they are no Sat Guru.
People do fall, even Gurus.
A Sat Guru, however wacky they may be, will never violate their own vows.
You will never see a true Sat Guru engaging in the theft of millions for personal gain, or causing harm to others, and certainly not encouraging their younger cousins and their wife to do so.
They may insult people, they may avoid showering and do other anti-social things.
But they live as the standard of right conduct, not the exception.
No Sat Guru ever violates their own vows, including the vow to live a moral life.
What they teach, they live.
And where they don’t live it, they are no Sat Guru.
There is a reason why RSSB is coming to a close. And it is absolutely with Baba Ji’s participation and under his direction. He knows what he is doing, as you say. He is making a point of showing the world he is not a Sat Guru.
And it’s up to us to do our part and say “OK, I get it….”. It’s up to us to say “OK Baba Ji, we can actually decide right and wrong for ourselves…we can take that responsibility. ”
Will he stop embezzling funds then? Probably not, since he’s doing it for his own personal desire. He’s not doing it for you and I.
That’s his business.
It’s just not the business of a True Sat Guru.

Spencer, thank you for sharing the information. Grim reading for me also.

SatGurus are the true governing authority of all the realms,
however in this physical plane as a human being they remain in composure, and does follow the natural ways.
If someone wants to see what a SatGuru is –
the worst possible thing is to see and judge His physical presence – which is also amazingly soothing and beautiful.
The Inner Grandeur is beyond the description of words – and HE isn’t shy inside.
On the Inner Planes HE is always in HIS full majesty.
And unlike here, the lucifer and all his agents always bow to HIM.
And this is all I am saying about our loving Baba Gurinder Singh Ji.
Upon realisation most people here (mostly at the time of their death beds),
will want to cry endlessly for their misdeeds and doubts – HE is kind to forgive all.
After being forgiven, they will want to cry even more for being forgiven.
And that will bring amazing speed to the soul.
A True Master’s ship never sinks,
those who are jumping off – are just elongating their path.
The will all still be fine at the end, but along with bearing their own created troubles.
As said by the seniors: “Every inch of every centre will be used as shelter”
Most of the exers are just going to wait and watch,
ending up wasting numerous years of this precious lifetime.
In fact many of the aged ones are going to die and reborn by that time,
they will only realise the realities at the time of their death.
Many will witness it live.
“Do make your own decision, but make it an informed one please.”
There isn’t any decision to be made. It was already decided for me by HIM.
Not only you, even if ~7 Billion+ people of this world will point fingers to the Master,
it doesn’t matter to me – because what I’ve been through – they have not.
You said: “But he is not a Sat Guru.” – how do you know that ?
Did Jesus or Hazur told you that ? – No.
That’s only because you’ve not yet realised it.
And that you are on the judgemental side based on the material proceedings.
One way is that the statement will be validated and make sense
if you are a Sat Guru, which you are not –
hence your statement is completely invalidated.

Hmmm…..Gurinder ok but why is only him being criticised? Didn’t Great master start expansion( remember dialog between him and Jaimal) .
Why Brian i don’t hear critics on Charan from you? Do you guys think that leaving Gurinder is disillusionment when you safetly run to Charan after?Hasn’t Charan had mistress and tricked others to smugle watches? There was no internet and we know less about those times. Charan spoke nice but behind that there were also money spending shopping right?, remember the story about room full of shopping gifts?? I think if internet was working in previous gurus time we would leave them all. Spence is now crying what sat gutu should or should not be alike, didn’t Shiv Dhayal let a poor woman suck his toe all day long? Imagine if Jim would see Gurinder doing that in Jim’s dera visit? So is this disillusionment? I know criticizing Gurinder is ok and we must do it but why run then always to previous gurus. Jesse said to Spence to go back to Charan dhyan cause Spences meditation bare fruits. But what about me what should i do a Gurinder initiate who still lives just and only because of meditation yes it saved my life but i never was IN the rssb social livin,my path was more here and rss forum and i mainly listened to critics. Should i also leave ashtanga vinyasa cause Jois was an abuser but vinyasa keeps me healthy? Should i also leave weight lifting cause steroid heads ruined image of weights but weights keep my muscles and bones strong? What is there to disillusion from, what or who? Is Brian disillusioned? I say partiality. Cause i always have feeling he says things about his new findings just as preachy or dogmaticaly as he did before about rssb when he was in but it’s ok i am not bothered with that. So what is to be done. Crying over Gurinder and then run to the past gurus? Or is disillusionment somewhere else?
Who is there in me and you to be disillusioned? Find true self? What is true self? But sill peace and deep respect to you all.

777 — seeing someone’s form within doesn’t make them God though.
Also, why do you keep linking to the wayback machine? If your post gets deleted, the link to it will as well.
Oh, it’s to make sure that they archive the page, right? So you can refer to it later. Lol, I like your posts and your faith, but it will take more than generalities from the literature to convince me now.

One Initiated – I wish someday you truly realise who a Satguru is. You’re so blindfolded that you can’t see the truth. Just some visions within do not confirm that your Guru is GIHF. Even his form is made by your own mind and the answers you get within by that form is your own subconscious mind. Don’t be ignorant brother. Wake up.

But you could not get inside my head, seeker.
Thanks for your wishes,
And I wish you exactly the same, seeker.

Hi One!
You say that the worst thing an individual can do is judge a Sat Guru.
I do agree with that.
At our level, how can we know?
Marko, that comment also refers to yours.
My comments are limited to the facts of embezzlement and the involvement of Baba Ji’s wife, Sunhil and the Singh brothers over incidents over several years, documented and verified independently from several sources.
I don’t think a Sat Guru would embezzle money. But I will agree it’s not my place to make that call.
I love my Master, Maharaji, and I love Baba Ji. I can tell you several miracle stories about both.
But the fact is the crimes listed above were committed.
I don’t claim to actually know Baba Ji’s reasons for it.
I do know that blind faith has led many people down blind alleys.
The Catholic Church used to set their standard on the Bible. Whatever the Bible said had to be true, therefore that was their perfect standard.
In Sant Mat the Masters have actually given us the standard: To make a decision for ourselves. Not on blind faith.
Yes, how can we know? We must rely on faith at some point. But that is a faith that we will be helped in making our own decision.
Maharaji taught me three critical standards for truth which may help serve here:
1. Truth invites inspection.
That means complete transparency. When you encounter people hiding their actions, that is unlikely to be truth.
2. It is the hallmark of every adult to let go a favored opinion when facts prove otherwise.
You may read my exchanges with Brian and others to see that I did not choose to believe.
Brian, against my personal desire, presented facts that met my own earlier criteria: Independent corroboration, independent sourcing, and then, the judgments of courts and corporate boards which repeatedly, over several years, have pointed to corruption.
3. Make your best decision.
You may ask Master Himself why Subnam was listed as the head of many small companies she doesn’t run, receiving loans siphoned off other companies by the singhs. Loans she hasn’t repayed from Fortis and Religare, nor made payments on. Uncollateralized loans.
How did that happen?
So, no this is the last thing on earth I wanted to see.
But I’m not doing my Master’s wishes by accepting my duty to take a decision for myself and to live within the four vows.
I’m still a Satsangi, One and Marko.
But the Master has been in the middle of embezzlement over several years.
It’s a fact.
You may ask him why.

Hi One.
No one wants to take away the platform of love that gives us strength every day and helps us to accept difficult truths.
So you or I don’t actually need to judge anyone. But we should have the strength to accept difficult truths when they arise, so that we do not become participants in that crime.
If we are to avoid enabling wrong behavior, to being part of something that is wrong, even criminal behavior, we must then carry the burden to investigate thoroughly and withdraw from that situation, when we are confronted with the real possibility of wrong doing.
We don’t need to discuss the why. Who can really know?
But the facts of the crimes, that we can review in detail. That’s our duty. The Masters actually teach us to do so.
And then you may choose to do as you wish. You may put the facts together differently. But you have done your personal duty to understand them completely. Because they involve you. Because you don’t want to support something wrong.
True Masters are perfect, I believe.
But my judgment is not l perfect. Who really is a true Master? I may not know who is or isn’t a perfect master and I would have to claim to be perfect in some ways to say that I could ignore any factual information.
My judgment is based on experience and that is new all the time.
The path confirms itself every day.
But a crime is a crime.
No decision in this matter is wrong if it is an honest decision, in the full light of all evidence, and not a means to avoid facts.

@ Jesse : Interesting comment above, thank you. As an agnostic theist and a ex-Sat, I believe that it would be impossible to continue with Charan’s dhyan. The transference of the spiritual power comes from the preceding Sant and he ( the outgoing physical form ) chooses someone worthy by the dictates of the larger fellowship who live in the astral planes. I’m wondering, who could have got it wrong ? The transference is the basis of a spiritual lineage and it exists in its absolute evidential existentiality – through the current physical form of the haloed turban. Here, Gurinder. So, did Charan withdraw the Sat Guru strain that led to Gurinder’s involvement in the pinda ? If that’s true, then there has to be a way for the collective to know … could we be in the process of it, through all of what is revealing itself ? Will Charan appear in the meditations of the ones who are initiated by Gurinder ? Will Charan come to the rescue of his flock who are on the fringes of the faith ? Or, will he send someone new to clean up Beas ? I have family members who have questions on transference … unless of course, we go with Sant Mat 2.0 and conclude they’re all charlatans and Gurinder is doing the faithful a favour by setting them free.

Hi Bombay!
The answer to you comments seems pretty simple:
The true Master is within.
What you find sacred, that is your Master.
And if that individual turns out to be corrupt, well, there can’t be a photo copy without a real source somewhere.
That’s what the guy who brought me to the path taught. Fakes are always there.
But in fact therefore, there must be a real somewhere.
A psychologist did an experiment. The parents of a child who always complained were worried about their child. The pyschologist put that child in a room full of toys. But even so, the child complained “There isn’t a pony here!”
Not shortly after another pair of parents came concerned about their child who was always happy. The psychologist grabbed that child and threw him into a huge mound of fertilizer.
The child, smiling, started shoveling and digging holes, and the more he dug, the happier he became.
The psychologist shouted to him, “Why are you so happy?”
The child replied, “With all this horseshit everywhere, I know there MUST be pony here someplace!”

Marko, your example of leaving weight lifting because steroids ruined the image is completely different.
RSSB is a guru cult/religion. It’s not a man you’re supposed to be dealing with, but a god. Men make mistakes. Gods aren’t supposed to make mistakes, let alone get involved in totally avoidable criminal activity.
But if you think that doing the meditation saved your life, then why stop? One Initiated has certainly succeeded in justifying the actions of Gurinder. Muslims have defended Mohamed’s pedophilia for centuries and still call him the best man of all time. Christians haven’t once paused even knowing that the Bible isn’t what they claim it to be.
Just continue on with the meditation. Consider that Gurinder is playing a game, or that he simply served to pass on the jyot that he gives in namdan or initiation as us westerners call it.
RSSB never saved my life so I’m not so hung up on it, but if it had, I’d likely just keep pushing on like John Maus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDnO9LoMems

Hi Jesse how are you?
You say : Marko, your example of leaving weight lifting because steroids ruined the image is completely different.
Me: no i was telling my personal experience to me it was like that…
As i said i was never too in and most of my engagement is from rss and here and hours pon hours of meditation. Critic must be there. I realized i cannot even live without critics.

777,
You wrote:
“Yes archive will not be harmed for a long time
including my True comments”
I don’t understand how this will work if Brian is deleting your comments,
For example I tried archiving this page here: https://tinyurl.com/yaoyl4wf
But when Brian deletes your comments,
they can get removed from the archive page as well ? Can’t they ?

Quote Spencer : And I don’t write these things easily. — Brian, these are my days of personal trauma. — Over thirty years on this path….. — Most of my life…
(…)
Actually since 1978…40 years to be exact…

This I respect, Spencer. You’ve been able to fight your ingrained trust in GSD, to fight that pre-existing bias of yours, and — although if took you a good while to do this — to squarely face the truth (or at least, what the truth seems to be), even when this truth goes squarely against the grain of your ingrained belief system. I respect that very much!
One would think that this sort of thing would be effortless : provided one believes in rationality, one would think that it would be the easiest thing in the world to recognize, without dithering, what the evidence points at. (That is, while this recognition may cause distress and pain, one would think that the recognition itself would be instantaneous, effortless, easy.)
One would think that, but that isn’t how it works, in practice. I can attest to this from personal experience. The mind has a way of presenting justifications for one’s biases and prejudices that often blind one to evidence that, in retrospect, appears glaringly clear.
Which is why I appreciate this heroic — although just a bit over the top, I believe that epithet isn’t out of place in this context — recognition of the truth, coming from a long-time believer like you.
(And of course, I could say the same of Brian as well, albeit his unblinkering preceded yours by many years. After all, that unblinkering is what this whole blog is all about.)
.
This is a fascinating process to observe, this selective blinkering. The commenters on this very blog provide poignant instruction on this, the particular blinkering of (some of) these providing stark irony given that they’re usually out to debunk some particular irrationality even as they clearly reveal their own irrationality.
In the early days of this blog there was a commenter called tAo, whose comments (although sometimes not very kind) I appreciated for their apparently uncompromising clarity. And then, a few years down the line, I was astonished to find this same tAo spouting all kinds of obviously irrational BS about his own pet neo-Advaitic beliefs, and finally taking umbrage at Brian’s takedown of his BS and leaving this place altogether.
Then there was this person, who signs himself Mike Williams, who’s produced some lovely take-downs of Beas’s claims, including a painstaking and scholarly compilation of RSSB’s early history that I was very impressed with. And yet, some years down the line, I was astonished to find this same apparently rational Mike Williams present, in all seriousness, cock-eyed pronouncements about RSSB masters being devils (or succubi, or corrupted arch-angels, or agents of Lucifer, or some such claptrap).
More recently, we had a commenter called D.r, who was very incisive in his criticisms of RSSB and the irrationalities of the RSSB faithful, but who turned out to be wholly oblivious of the irrationality of his own particular brand of religiosity that he was try to peddle in its stead.
Finally, we have a current commenter, Jesse, who again is very rational, even incisive, when it comes to the irrationalities within the RSSB beliefs and practices (and exceptionally vocal — and rabid — in denouncing these), but who himself, amazingly enough, turns out to be holding astonishingly irrational racist beliefs that he is, demonstrably, wholly unable to defend (and indeed is demonstrably reduced, at times, to actually gibbering away incoherently when this pet irrationality of his is challenged, exactly like religious believers tend to do), and who is further astonishingly unable to recognize the evidence — as crystal clear, if not more, as anything that is being discussed in this very thread in the context of RSSB — for the hilariously over-the-top dishonesty and idiocy of the unbelievably clownish current POTUS (whom he, Jesse, actually and in all seriousness declares the best POTUS he’s ever seen, blindly defending that corrupt buffoon’s disgraceful and indefensible shenanigans just as the RSSB faithful keep on defending GSD!), even as he, Jesse, is able to clearly see and appreciate the evidence for the dishonesty of GSD and his cronies.
These are just some instances that come to mind. No doubt there are more of these.
.
This sort of thing is truly fascinating to me.
And of course, I realize that there is no reason to imagine I am myself immune to this sort of thing. I like to think I am intellectually honest as well as sufficiently self-aware, but then I suppose so do people like tAo and Mike Williams and D.r and Jesse ; and if they can be blinkered about their own prejudices, who is to say I might not myself be harboring irrational biases and beliefs and prejudices of mine own, that I am not even aware of?
For the third time, then, in the space of this not-so-short comment, I’d like to express my admiration, Spencer, for this clear-headed and honest recognition of yours of your own past blinkered view of the apparently clear evidence around GSD and his cronies.

`

Dear One Initiated,
I wonder if you would explain to me the exact point of this “mud platform” parable?
I ask not to scoff or to ridicule, but to understand. And in order to really understand the believer’s POV, it is necessary to turn to someone — like you — who actually believes in this concept (as opposed to most here, who may know of the fable but don’t see any actual wisdom in it).
I’ve heard of this parable, absolutely, but I could never see the point of it. Nor, now that I think of it, of a somewhat similar Sufi parable about the Sheikh (was it Nizamuddin Auliya? I forget who it was, exactly) who goes around town apparently drunk, shouting out drunken profanities, and ending his night’s revelries in the arms of a professional-extender-of-arms-and-other-bodily-parts, in the process losing the trust and the company of whole hordes of followers and hangers-on who would tag him all day long, with just one true disciple remaining with him.
What is the point of this kind of an exercise, exactly? (Again, I’m looking for the believer’s view here. The scoffer’s view is simple : namely, it’s all a convoluted attempt to defend the indefensible. The believers’ version is what I’m looking for now.)
Is it to test the disciple(s)? That doesn’t make sense. Why go out of one’s way to test someone? Life itself brings tests in its wake, organically as it were : why create additional tests of this kind? Unlike regular normal teaching of regular normal subjects, this kind of testing specifically of one’s blind faith makes no sense! The practice itself will presumably present tests that the Teacher can help the student with, without having to devise such elaborate charades. Besides, the end result of the test, that is, the actual ‘level’ of the student’s ‘progress’, presumably that is something the mystically empowered Sheikh or Guru is already cognizant of, without having to rely on tests to confirm that knowledge. No, that explanation — about testing the disciple — doesn’t any make sense at all to me!
Is it, then, simply to get rid of insincere followers? That doesn’t seem to make sense either. That is, this is much too convoluted a means for achieving what might have been achieved far more easily, by simply shooing away those who aren’t insincere (presumably the Sheikh or the Guru would know who is sincere and who is insincere), by simply ordering the hordes to disperse in clear firm terms, given that the words of this Sheikh or Guru will presumably carry authority with this flock that has gathered around him. No, that explanation — about all of this being a means of ridding the Sheikh or Guru of unwanted followers — does not make any sense either.
Over to you, One Initiated, if you would. As clearly as you can, please. (And I assure you once again, I’m not asking this in order to subsequently scoff, but only because I wish to understand the understand the believer’s interpretation. I promise I won’t pick apart any irrationalities — as they might appear to me — in your response, or criticize it in any way.)
Any other believers here, who might understand this parable (as well as agree with its message), your views would be welcome too. Perhaps you, Spencer — provided you still buy into this parable, now after your disillusionment with RSSB (or at least, with GSD)?
(Scoffers and fellow unbelievers : Your views I am not asking for, not because I think you’re wrong, but because your view would likely be the same as my own view — which is, that all of this is just a creative attempt to defend the indefensible — and therefore add nothing to the discussion.)

Hello, 777. 🙂
No, I meant, what is the point of the parable itself? This mud platform exercise, what is the whole point of it?
Sure, you’re saying you know — not believe, but actually know — your Guru is true, you know the teachings are true. OK, let’s grant you that, for the sake of the argument. But given that all of this is (as you say) true, then what is the point, exactly, of the whole mud platform thing?
(See my original comment for the full basis of my question. Of course, my question itself is short enough : a request to explain the believer’s view of what the point of this parable might be.)

Appreciative Retard, can you please stop calling me a racist every time you post here simply because you don’t want to read books and because things that can and have been scientifically measured and studied make you uncomfortable?
I’m sorry you’re so emotionally attached to the idiotic concept that humans are purely the products of our environment and that genes don’t exist, and we don’t have parents etc, but your hidden emotionality isn’t my fault. It’s the fault of your glaringly obvious aspergers.
Maybe you don’t like reading because you’re so addicted to writing long meaningless diatribes that any sane person could write in less than 100 words. Reading takes time, and it means removing your massive ego for a few moments which you’re not capable of. Again, not my fault. But continually slandering me as you do is getting old, and it doesn’t make you look smart, which is obviously your intention, being the bugman that you are. It makes you look like you have giant female genitalia where most people have a brain.
One time I’m gonna link to something off topic. This is for you, you lying, pathetic small souled bugman –
https://medium.com/incerto/the-intellectual-yet-idiot-13211e2d0577

@ Jesse : That’s an interesting article, thank you for posting but what’s with the ” it makes you look like you have giant female genitalia where most people have a brain ” comment ?
Ouch !

Hi Appreciative!
Thanks for your comments.
You wrote
“One would think that, but that isn’t how it works, in practice. I can attest to this from personal experience. The mind has a way of presenting justifications for one’s biases and prejudices that often blind one to evidence that, in retrospect, appears glaringly clear.”
Yes. It’s like each day the part of me that wants to go back and try to imagine some justification, but that voice is dying a little more every day.
And the other voice that whispers to me” this is real. Don’t cover it over… ” gets louder and louder.

Bombay, I have problem with people who pretend to be intellectuals and who take themselves too seriously while also assigning moral value to people who disagree with their spoon fed pop morality.
Asking tedious long series of questions about things that have been thoroughly answered is a tactic that these fake intellectuals do to avoid facts that would hurt them to know. He’s got an emotional and social bias that instead of confronting, he tries to deal with by calling me racist for the 1000th time.
I refrained from using serious insults, but I said that thing just to jab at the clownworld mascot’s vanity. It sounds funnier than simply calling someone the p word.
Seeing through the lies of a minor cult is easy. Accepting facts even when the whole world will call you a monster is something else entirely and something people like him would never dare do. Appreciative is simply a half wit and a generic moral crusading coward. Too afraid to read one single book because it would require him to make bold changes to his worldview.

Jesse,
You need not to always behave like a reptile.
You don’t have faith on the Master – but you are still a human being.
Do you realise that ?
The comments you mentioned above are so disgusting in nature,
that irrespective of being a believer or non-believer,
you represent how much filth you’ve collected in your heart,
you just always appeared to be covered in your own vomit.
Learn some sincerity.
Again, not even talking about any faith or religion or spirituality,
for the sake of behaving yourself like a human being,
learn some sincerity.

Funny thing, One.I was just calling you a snake too, because you are one. You’re slimy, and you always will be dishonest and slimy until you come to terms with the fact that you’re in a cult, and you’re trying to trick people back into it who’ve left.
I’m extremely sincere. I’ll tell you exactly what I feel. If anyone lacks sincerity here, it sure isn’t me. I’m not up here lying about sach khand and fake love because of stupid old traditions. I’m not here to please people hoping they stay in RSSB. Ask me what I think and I’ll tell you. This is a skill you have not acquired yet.
I’m here to mock people who protect religious criminals and who seek, intentionally or by ignorance, to destroy the lives of innocent people. Especially westerners who are far more prone to actually follow the rules and dole out money and time to these garbage gurus, unlike yourself who goes for free roti, you bum.

Jesse,
Now don’t behave like a loser.
Your funny and ugly tricks are not going to work.
You’ve failed over and over again on me,
and you know that.

hi Appreciative Reader,
I completely understand what you are seeking,
and I do have answer to that.
I will respond you on that in time.
Love.
~OI

“hi Appreciative Reader,
I completely understand what you are seeking,
and I do have answer to that.
I will respond you on that in time.
Love.”
https://www.cultwatch.com/howcultswork.html

Quote Bombay Blonde : what’s with the ” it makes you look like you have giant female genitalia where most people have a brain ” comment ? — Ouch !
Heh! That’s what our “Jesse” sounds like when he’s in disagreement mode, no matter the subject of disagreement (not just RSSB or religion).
He seems to imagine that random attempted put-downs are an acceptable substitute for rational discourse ; and what is more, he is seemingly unable to distinguish between wit and incivility and, lacking the former, tends to make liberal use of the latter. As you see, this female-genitalia comment of his that you quote (not to forget the liberal sprinkling, within that single short comment of his that you quote from, of wholly random and unsupported would-be insults like “retard”, “Aspergers”, “massive ego”, “bugman”, “lying”, “pathetic” and “small souled”) is his idea of witty and funny. He doesn’t seem to realize that it is to him that these words speak to, by the very fact of his using them (and using them in such profusion, without once actually substantiating any of it), rather than to me.
I believe our Jesse is a troll, that is, he only pretends to the identity and the back story and the ideas and convictions as well as expressions that he lets loose here, and so I no longer respond to him about anything he says to me. (You know, the “don’t feed the troll” rule). That’s a good enough rule in general, but of course it is possible that I am mistaken in this specific instance, and that there does live and breathe such a remarkable person IRL as this “Jesse” persona that we see here. If that is the case, then I suppose one would need to substitute the “don’t feed the troll” rule with a “don’t encourage douchebags by engaging with them” rule. And of course, in saying this I speak only for myself, and don’t presume to make this decision for anyone else, including you — unless, that is, you (and/or others) happen to arrive at that same conclusion independently.
Here’s some links to the discussions I’ve had here with this “Jesse”, that led me to this conclusion. You may find them amusing. Just CNTRL-F within the threads linked with ‘Appreciative Reader’, and go. (You could also CNTRL-F with “Jesse” within those threads, except that might take a bit longer to reach the relevant portions, given that Jesse is a far more prolific commenter than I am.) For best results and a cohesive narrative, start with the beginning of our exchange, and move on to the end. Enjoy!
Link 1 : https://churchofthechurchless.com/2018/07/ive-got-a-new-non-religious-mantra
Link 2 : https://churchofthechurchless.com/2018/07/why-god-is-an-illusion-along-with-other-supernatural-stuff
Link 3 : https://churchofthechurchless.com/2018/08/open-thread-15-free-speech-for-comments (This last is carried over on to a second page as well)

Quote One Initiated : hi Appreciative Reader, — I completely understand what you are seeking, — and I do have answer to that. — I will respond you on that in time. — Love. ~OI
Take your time, One Initiated, no rush.
My visits to this site tend to be sporadic-ish of late, but I’ve bookmarked this thread, and will be sure to see your response when you post it, if with some lag. I’ll look forward to reading what you might have to say.
Cheers!

Bump!
One Initiated, I wonder if you’d like to take a stab at this?

hi AR
Sorry I was away from this blog for last couple weeks
and also forgot to respond on this comment of yours.
This is going to be more of a discussion and self exploration,
instead of having a conclusive direct answers.
And the core reason for that is as they said:
“You have to become Saint to understand the Saint”
However, we can still go through the available literature and get some understanding of these incidents.
And can learn from what they are teaching to the rest of the world.
As you mentioned about Nizamuddin Auhliya, just rephrasing that again:
Nizamuddin Auhliya when climbed up the stairs of a brothel,
HIS 21 disciples were waiting outside, observing the whole scene.
When HE came down and witnessed there was nobody left except Amir Khusro.
Master asked: “Khusro, where is everyone?”
Khusro: “Master, everyone has left”
Master: “Why haven’t you?”
Khusro: “Where should I? except your feet for me there is nothing in the whole universe”
Khusro was given the whole treasure for HE found him to be the worthy and not the one who can get tricked by the mind.
Those who have not established the unshakable faith on the Master –
can fall prey and eventually misuse the inner treasures. They are always given their due after death.
Such great was the state of the disciple Khusro, these two names have become inseparable.
If you read the related literature, whenever there is a talk about the Naizamuddin, you are sure to read about Khusro,
and wherever there is a mentioning of Khusro (due to his great poetry), you are sure to read about Nizamuddin Auhliya.
Same is the case with the Master Shah Inayat and HIS disciple Bulleshah
Same is with Master Baba Jaimal Singh Ji and HIS disciple Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj who eventually succeeded HIM as well as you know.
And I would love to add a well known account of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and HIS disciple Bhai Lehna.
read for detailed view here: https://www.sikhnet.com/stories/audio/bhai-lehna-jis-devotion
Short gist is that when Master asked bunch of disciples including Bhai Lena,
to eat the dead body,
HE asked him: “What are you thinking?”
Bhai Lena: “Thinking where to start from head or toe”
Master: “Start from the middle”
And he started from the middle only to realise it was not the body anymore.
Bhai Lena, later named by the Master as “Angad” succeeded HIM as the next Master.
Another such lovely event:
At midnight, HE (guru Nanak ji) said:
“How beautiful the Sun is shining”
Lena: “Yes Master, it’s indeed beautiful”
Master’s sons: “You both have gone mad talking about Sun at midnight”
Master and Lena smiled, for they were talking about the grandeur of Thousand Petal Lotus.
These events tests not only their successors but also all other disciples in general too.
handful of them also share their incidents, but the readers being in tight grip of mind, who cares to believe ?
It’s the same treasure for every disciple,
however the Master tests and remain cautious about the time when the disciple is to be given his dues.
maximum percentage falls in the category to receive it post death.
Because you see, it’s not easy to not fall prey to the mind in this mindful world.
I know and can understand that it is not the satisfactory comment to the question you asked,
but we can surely get some hints by reading these sort of accounts,
and again best is that these are things which are to be explored in our own life and it can be correctly proven if we make ourselves worthy for it.
I completely believe that it can not be understood in it’s entirety unless one reaches/realises the state of par-brahm.
Wish you lots of Love.

Dear One Initiated,
Thanks very much for your well-considered response.
I’m afraid you’re right when you say, or at least imply, that your answer does not really address the specific objections that I’d raised earlier on, when asking this question. But let’s that slide — beyond, that is, my simply mentioning this here, now.
And absolutely, I do agree that it is difficult to fully understand another person or their motivations, unless we’ve actually accessed their mental “level”.
My very best wishes to you too, my friend.
.
PS : That story of Guru Nanak and Bhai Lehna / Angad was new to me. What would you say, then, is the point of that story? I can think of two ways of looking at something like that : (a) They’re basically using everyday words to refer to something more complex than what those words might convey to an uninformed person, much like the Buddha’s famous word-less holding-up-the-lotus Sutra ; or (b) This refers to the importance of unquestioningly following the Guru’s instruction. Do you think either one of my guesses is correct, and which one would you yourself go with?

@ AR and OI :
The ” mud platform ” disciple testing technique runs across all philosophies, it’s not exclusive to Sikhism and / or to 18th century Sufism, or Shiv Seth or Sawan. There are volumes of texts in Farsi and other dialects that point at the fallacies of these ” kissas ” and a major portion of Farid and Naradev’s work wasn’t included in the Guru Granth. It is why the Sikhs focused on the ” Sikhi ” aspects whilst leaving out early Sufi influences.
But of course, these are cultural histories that are laced throughout with contradictions, you’re entitled to believe in what suits your position of faith. I’m clarifying from an academic perspective that is devoid of absolutes.
There is a big difference between religious history and religious beliefs, though they often seem related.

Hello, Bombay Blonde.
I see. I wasn’t aware of any other such references, beyond that Nizamuddin Auliya story. If you can supply any older references, or even simply recount any of these stories in your own words, they would be of interest to me.
In any case, as I’d said in my original comment about this fable (in the comment I’d posted to this thread on September 07, 2018 at 06:44 AM), I don’t really understand the point of fables like these. I’d mentioned some specific objections to possible ‘lessons’ that the religious might draw from stories like these.
I appreciate One Initiated’s considered response to my request, and I fully reciprocate his goodwill towards me, but his response does not really address the specific objections I had raised.

Dear AR,
The thing that you are looking for is inner help,
nothing of this outer explanation will help you to fulfil your thirst completely,
maybe it can momentarily but never with a lasting impression,
You have to spend dedicated time in meditation on daily basis without fail.
targeting unambiguously on the point raised:
The answers to the following simple questions, will also answer the points raised (again only a bit):
If you own a few shirts, which of them you will put in your wardrobe and which you will send to the laundry ?
Would you not put those which are clean in the wardrobe and those which are dirty in the laundry ?
If you have a single job opening for an accountant in your company and having 10 of your dear acquaintance applying to the job, will you not decide which will be the perfect one for serving the job by giving them an annuity problem to solve ?
Will you not want to be non-answerable to your dear ones with the help of this simple exam?
Some will even point fingers on you: “You being my friend, how did you dare ask me to solve a question? Being a friend I was just asking for your help to have me a position in your company.”
Will you not respond to these friends: “You are still a dear friend, but I can not appoint you for the post of accountant, because you are not yet ready”?
Won’t a king having 4 sons all appearing equal in skills, send them to real warfront, where they can even die, to decide who will be the next king?
Won’t some of them point fingers to their Father for being so rude to have them faced with the death just because he wanted to decide of the next king?
Won’t they call them a cruel father who can not love his children?
Won’t there will be one kid who not only agree to his father’s will but outperform every other one in leading the war and winning his father’s confidence?
Won’t a school conduct an yearly examination to test the children and decide who pass through and who fails a subject?
Won’t the failed ones point fingers on the school for being so rude and setting the exam so tough?
Won’t the failed ones even mentions that the schools are to teach not to test ?
The above mentioned subjects are all related to the worldly affairs and are paradoxical in nature, specially from the perspective of failed ones. The successful ones always finds it all right.
Spirituality is much more paradoxical in nature.
And specially the style of Saints is largely the paradoxical parable.
Those who HE finds worthy will get the place in HIS wardrobe, others have to go through the laundry, maybe many more times.
Everyone can become worthy. Because everyone has Crown chakra.
A beautiful and one of my favourite verse from Soami Ji Maharaj:
“Shabad karam ki rekh mitave
Shabad shabad se jaye milave”
meaning:
Shabad will destroy your karmas;
Shabad will lead you to meet Shabad.
How can Shabad lead you to meet Shabad?
Those who have realised it, are always in bliss.

Hi One
You wrote
“Some will even point fingers on you: “You being my friend, how did you dare ask me to solve a question? Being a friend I was just asking for your help to have me a position in your company.”
Thank you for making the point of every poster who looks at the evidence of fraud, and says ” Is this a true Saint? ”
And those who say.” how dare you ask! ”
What do they know of the job, or the intimacy that tolerates nothing between us?

It is when other students assume the job of teacher and try to correct and censure every sincere question from every earnest student that you have a religion.
It is when other students make excuses for the teacher that you have a religion.
Because these other students, who have a social and / or financial position to protect, in defense of a flawed teacher, have corrupted the sole purpose of the school.

And one more point, One.
If our Guru is so perfect he can’t say,
“Crap I fucked up! I will spend the rest of my days making this screw up right, I swear!”
He is no perfect Master.
If the Master is so flawless he cannot be held accountable, there is no need for him here. This is no Saint.
They come here just like you and I, and love is their only wealth.
You can’t build an organization of self – appointed priests in that, sorry.
Let me put this another way, and please spend time with Him to get it right.
When Baba Ji says “well, I thought I could be successful in finance, but I cut too many corners. It’s not my thing I guess, sorry..I’ll spend my days trying to make it right.”
That’s the day his true lovers will rally round and say, “That took a lot of guts. The courage you have been asking of us all along! OK, we can be friends again.”
And that is the day the false preists will scatter to the winds.

A Father who cannot admit of error is the worst father of all.
And any child who defends such a father has no love of the Father, only their position in the family.
Which isn’t love at all.
But the children who see the Truth, yet cannot help but keep their minds on their Father, flaws and all, and want some closure, some acknowledgment. That is love.
Because that love persists in the presence of every good reason to walk away.
That is love, Sir.
Not the blind faith of priests who know nothing of love, and have no tolerance for the loneliness of separation.
And one more point, One!
Spiritual Wealth isn’t fake love.
The Shabd IS love. The Shabd forces us to acknowledge ugly truths within ourselves AND in the world around us. Part of the development.
And it will not, cannot associate with corruption. So we have this love affair with Truth, who sets a high standard.
A high standard indeed.
The standard Brian has been setting here for many, many years.

@ Spence : That’s a gentle counter argument, but a powerful one nonetheless – a consolation primer for confused Satsangis who are on the brink of leaving RSSB. I appreciate your thoughts, Spence … thank you.

Hi Appreciative
I see you didn’t get an answer to your request for an explanation about the mud platforms. The story was retold by Great Master. There are a few variations…
Centuries ago in ancient Persia a well known Guru saw that his days here were drawing to a close. He had several disciples of varying degrees of sincerity.
He told them all that on Sunday he would announce his successor. He said a lot of people from the surrounding community would show up. He will need a raised platform to give that Satsang and make his announcement.
He then asked his disciples to please make some platforms. He would choose the one he would speak from.
The next day he saw that every disciple had worked through the night making platforms. But there was one less platform than the number of disciples. So who had not made a platform? A short boy, Rav, of average build stepped forward. “I have no craft, so I offered to help the others.”
The Guru noted the platforms were of varying heights and material, some of mud carefully molded into bricks and precisely stacked; , some of wood cut carefully and cross fit with hand hewn joints ; others of stone hand cut and carefully placed in a perfect little square of absolutely flat and plumb walls surrounding a mound of perfectly pressed earth.
Just as one appeared to reflect the highest craftsmanship, the next even higher.
And yet each one, according to the Guru, lacked something. And as he passed he gently and quietly pointed that out and asked kindly if the disciple would please tear it down and begin again. Some, he acknowledged, were lovely, but the location was wrong, not enough shade for the hour of the day he would give his talk and pronouncement, as rain was expected. Or not enough sun. Should there be no rain.
They worked tirelessly through the night again.
And the scenario played out much the same.
After three days the number of disciples dwindled. Some had questioned the sanity, pride or the cruelty of the guru, and rejecting him in frustration, walked away.
After the fifth day only Rav remained, and his mud platform, which took the entire day and night to build. It was not particularity elegant.
The Guru pointed this out and asked Rav to begin again. In fact the Guru was quite disappointed and said he would postpone the pronouncement until Rav could get the platform right.
Each day another platform, only marginally better, and each day a visit from the Guru, some small talk about how Rav was doing today, and some comment about seeing improvement, though with squinted eyes and a questioning look, and the customary request to tear down and rebuild.
Each day one or two of the ex-disciples who had left came and encouraged Rav to give it up. The old man was senile and a cruel streak had taken over, they said.
Rav just shook his head. They shook there’s and walked away.
And so each day for months and then years it was the Guru, Rav, small talk, a walk together around the field and the customary request for another platform.
The entire discussion about a successor was forgotten altogether. As the Guru grew infirm, Rav took care of him. When the Guru could no longer walk, Rav carried him in his arms for the daily inspection of the platform, and the request for Rav to rebuild. When the Guru could no longer speak, Rav would ask, “shall I rebuild it?” And the Guru would smile, with the slightest nod.
And so it went until one bright and cool morning, as the dew began to lift upon the rising sun, and Rav brought the Guru to the field for the daily inspection, the Guru looked into Rav’s eyes, smiled, and faded away, held in Rav’s arms.
Upon his funeral, a few of the disciples returned. And when they heard the story of how this all had progressed, they each cried, as they saw how much they had lost, and were humbled by the wealth that Rav had gained.

Spence,
What you are doing is Spiritual Corruption.
You will realise it in a while.
The Love inside you will make you discern and let you extricate the mess.

@ Appreciative : I’m travelling for a fortnight. I would like to specifically address this particular fable and I’ll fetch a couple of counter arguments that point at the dichotomies that exist and their cultural references.
In the meantime, you can read Amir Khusrau. Poetic versatility in Eastern traditions is always based on the ability to spontaneously improvise and no two narrations of Khusrau ( or their interpretations ) will follow one measured convention. You will also find multiple interpretations for Nanak-Maradana, Rumi-Tabrizi.
Fables have several connotations that stretch from ethical viewpoints to the idea of the hidden within the revealed.

Dear One Initiated,
That second clarification of yours was palpably heart-felt and passionate. Thanks for writing it out, my friend.
What you say at the beginning about “inner help”, that “nothing of this outer explanation will help you to fulfil your thirst completely”, that resonates with me. Not necessarily at an intellectual level, but at a more elemental, and aspirational, level. God willing, one day!
I enjoyed your wardrobe/laundry analogy as well.
I’d promised, when asking this question, that I won’t critically deconstruct your answer, and I won’t, but it would be intellectually dishonest of me if I did not point out, gently and without the least bit of disrespect intended towards either you or your beliefs, that I had already anticipated these arguments and already presented my objections to them right at the outset, within that very comment where I’d asked that question. I’m afraid none of what you say actually addresses my specific objections.
But that’s okay, no issues. I’d requested you to explain your belief and your particular, personal POV about these fables, and that is exactly what you have so kindly done. Again, my thanks.

Spencer, Thanks for taking the time to write out that lovely story in your words. I enjoyed reading it — you definitely have a talent for writing absorbing narratives — and what is more, the story, as you present it, does make sense. It says nothing to which my original objections might attach, and indeed I can think of no other objections to the story, not as you present it.
Your conception of this fable is about love and acceptance. It does not necessarily bring in some supernatural element at all, nor does it peddle blind faith or rationalizations for the indefensible. If I understand it aright, it does not really discount the possibility that the old man may actually have gone all gaga with age, but highlights the young devotee’s staunch support nevertheless .
This could, as I see it, equally, be about (for instance, and with some of the details changed) a young boy’s love for his aged grandfather, or about any person’s persistent and staunch love for any one at all, in the face of apparently conflicting circumstances. It’s simply a story of love, and a beautiful story it is.
Lovely, Spence!
.
One Initiated, Did you not like Spence’s narration of the story? I think he presented it beautifully, and managed to strip away all irrationalities from the story. Why would you characterize it as “corruption”?
(Or might it be that you don’t refer to the story at all, in that comment to Spence about “corruption”, and refer instead to your ongoing argument about Babaji and these alleged financial irregularities? If that is the case, then apologies for the misunderstanding.)

Hi One
You wrote
“The Love inside you will make you discern and let you extricate the mess.”
The same love washing me, washes you, and Baba Ji.
There is plenty of mess to go around.

Spencer, Thanks for taking the time to write out that lovely story in your words. I enjoyed reading it — you definitely have a talent for writing absorbing narratives — and what is more, the story, as you present it, does make sense. It says nothing to which my original objections might attach, and indeed I can think of no other objections to the story, not as you present it.
Your conception of this fable is about love and acceptance. It does not necessarily bring in some supernatural element at all, nor does it attempt to peddle in rationalizations for the indefensible.
This could, in fact, as I see it, equally be about (for instance, and with some of the details changed) a young boy’s love for his aged grandfather, or about any person’s persistent and staunch love for any one at all, in the face of apparently conflicting circumstances. It’s simply a story of love, and a beautiful story it is.
Lovely, Spence!
.
One Initiated, Did you not like Spence’s narration of the story? I think he presented it beautifully, and managed to strip away all irrationalities from the story. Why would you characterize it as “corruption”?
(Or might it be that you don’t refer to the story at all, in that comment to Spence about “corruption”, and refer instead to your ongoing argument about Babaji and these alleged financial irregularities? If that is the case, then apologies for the misunderstanding.)

Spencer, Thanks for taking the time to write out that lovely story in your words. I enjoyed reading it — you definitely have a talent for writing absorbing narratives — and what is more, the story, as you present it, does make sense. It says nothing to which my original objections might attach, and indeed I can think of no other objections to the story, not as you present it.
Your conception of this fable is about love and acceptance. It does not necessarily bring in some supernatural element at all. Nor does it attempt to peddle in rationalizations for the indefensible. It even admits of the possibility of the old man’s actually having gone gaga with age, without in any way taking away from the beauty of the story.
And, as I see it, your story could, equally, be about (for instance, and with some of the details changed) a young boy’s love for his aged grandfather, or about any person’s persistent and staunch love for any one at all, in the face of apparently conflicting circumstances.
It’s simply a story of love, and a beautiful story it is.
Lovely, Spence!

Hi AR!
Thx!

Father. Give me no power. Give me no beauty. Give me no strength. Give me no wealth.
They are in the way.

Brian, a small housekeeping issue please.
The other day, while commenting here, the blogsite algo kept swallowing up one of my comments (my comment in response to Spence’s story, above), as it sometimes tends to do.
I’d been multitasking at that time, and without giving it too much attention, I’d pasted back (and re-posted) that comment a few times, each time scribbling in a few things plus or minus. And finally, one of the posts did take.
I’d emailed you then, requesting you to delete all of my comments you might find in your spam folder that day. But I see that you seem to have gone ahead and published all of my comments in your spam folder from that day.
Perhaps you could delete those extra comments? They clog up this thread unnecessarily.
Here are the links to my (extra) comments here that you might delete :
Link/comment #1 : https://churchofthechurchless.com/2018/08/gurinder-singh-dhillons-lawyer-excuses-him-in-a-weird-mud-platform-way?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad3b39d06200b#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad3b39d06200b
Link/comment #2 : https://churchofthechurchless.com/2018/08/gurinder-singh-dhillons-lawyer-excuses-him-in-a-weird-mud-platform-way?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad36dd35c200c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad36dd35c200c
Thanks!

This Man …Cooke.. should be awarded for Creativity and out of the box thinking. As the gurus last standing disciple he deserves to get the Seat as the next GURU!