Advice for RSSB believers about how to deal with news about their guru

So compassionate!
Thank you Brian!!!!!
So, so very compassionate!

Well, Brian, and my other Church friends. I think the goal has been accomplished. And I can go now.
Thank you all…

Dear Spence,
Keep your faith if it helps, don’t worry about what others are thinking or doing, mostly we are simply seeking the truth, whatever that is…
This quote sounds like me and makes me laugh…
What does a dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac do at night? He/She stays up wondering if there really is a dog.
Cheers my friend 🙂

Brian,
“nasty afterlife”
not at all by leaving the teachings and just be happy like you were without it,
but returning bitter and start abusing the Master – it does.

Brian
You are instructing people to leave RSSB path of spirtuality..Your
formation of this blog and devoting so much time to write the posts,reading ,analysing,replying the comments shows that mentally,you are more connected to RSSB path of spirttuality than most of the real RSSB followers at present and that is the miracle of saints.You are missing your RSSB satsang and speakership day badly. And somehow somewhere there is a deep instinct in your innerself of sepration fron God.

777
Rightly said
“We still see His Light
and hear HIS SONG”
GREAT

Mr whoever you are first of all u r a moron . U should not be writing all these blogs because you will have to pay heavy price of your soul in your there after life. We r small creatures of this universe and master has come here to free us from clutches of karmic account . God save u Mr .u r not the sole entity prevalent on this universe
. If u have some character left stop all these stories.

I am actually want to know that how much u get paid for doing all this nuisance talk. If u will have given this much time to ur meditation u will have got the superconciousness stage in ur life. Stop criticizing the path where u stepped in, due to any reason. Some one who talks against guru will never be forbidden neither in this birth nor in next birth. Keep progressing on ur spritiual and realize the real power of guru and his place.

RSSB members are extremely bitter people.
Don’t read the blog if it hurts you. Just worship the king of thieves and ignore the internet.

@ Jesse – let’s wait and see how this all unfolds. I’m not bitter. Just a lost soul seeking answers.
Hope the gym work is going 👍🏽 ok.
Best regards Arjuna

And yes no one should be writing bad stuff towards Brian!
I know he serves a huge purpose in this tale and anyone who has had experience with things they can explain such as me and the markings on my body – would Dare not write such things.
We don’t know what happens to us at point of exit from this body.

OneInitiated wrote: “not at all by leaving the teachings and just be happy like you were without it,
but returning bitter and start abusing the Master – it does.”
–Sounds to me like the master is abusing himself via his corrupt behavior. Others are merely reporting and commenting on this behavior.
dharam wrote: “You are instructing people to leave RSSB path of spirtuality..Your
formation of this blog and devoting so much time to write the posts,reading ,analysing,replying the comments shows that mentally,you are more connected to RSSB path of spirttuality than most of the real RSSB followers at present and that is the miracle of saints.”
–In 10-11 years of participating on this blog I have never heard Brian, the blog host, “instructing people to leave RSSB path of spirituality”. He just points out the flaws in RSSB dogma and the guru as he sees it. He doesn’t tell people what to do. I can’t really speak for him on this but I don’t think he cares if you, dharam, or other satsangis, stay on the RSSB path or not. I think he cares only that the truth gets out and that unproven beliefs are challenged. It’s up to the reader of this blog to decide for themselves what to do with their lives.
It is natural for Brian to have some interest in the events concerning the path he was on for 35 years even if he no longer believes in it. It’s just curiosity. At least hat’s how it is for me. I was involved with RSSB for about 27 years. Then I stopped. It no longer fit my view of things. Still, I have some curiosity about a religion I spent so much time with. This is natural, I think. I no longer live in Florida but I still keep track of hurricanes. Habit I guess.
For me, there is no bitterness. I no longer believe in the powers attributed to “masters” nor did I attain exhalted spiritual status in Par Brahm (I know that will come as a shock to some of you), but Sant Mat teachings did help me to solidify my values at a time when I was still sorting them out. Plus, it got me out of the house by taking a couple of trips to India and the Dera. Didn’t have to work during those trips except carry a few leaky baskets of dirt in mitti seva and in exchange I got free room and board. What a deal!

Hi Jen!
Yes, thank you.
I see in Brian’s post the very face of Maharaji. Brian has written something universal and spiritual, because upon that platform can be universal appreciation for the wonder of this place, and our duty to help each other, even as our beliefs are different.
Brian has succeeded here. Brilliantly, and most importantly, with nearly Christ-like compassion for those who do not hold his views, but who may be suffering inside.
I can add nothing. Except to say, “Brian. Job well done!”

Splence
You are encouraging Brian to guide you to no path from a path of spirtuality.Surat Shabad Yoga is not only the best and simplest path of spirtuality,it is also very natural.
You are already in a process of thinking.Santmat tells you to think of holy names by repeatung and keeping your attention at the point from where these thoughtsand attention are emerging.Light and Sound will automatically come if you succeed to hold your attention at the point behind eyes.So you understand it that it is simplest,bestcand natural path.Do not be misguided by Brian who understands it well but just has strayed grom path only because of Ego,the biggest enemy of 5 enemies to prevent the souls from going back to its home.

No PARAYI NINDA. FOCUS on the Love and let it Flow.
There is But One God. He knows everything. Leave it all to His Will and move on… Pralabdh will take us forward with His Grace and Mercy.

Eliza, I’m pleased to inform you that I get paid exactly zero for what I write on not only this blog, but my other two blogs. In fact, I pay Typepad, my blogging service, so actually I get paid less than zero.
Thanks for the spiritual advice, but I really don’t need it. I was a RSSB devotee for 35 years, so I’m very familiar with the whole guru thing. Been there, done that. I’ve moved on to a spiritual path that suits me better.

Whoever has started this blog is doing a great disservice to himself and others who sincerely try to follow the teachings of Santmat…. Instead of spending so much time energy on finding faults and spread gossip about spiritual masters he should do some meditation ….U don’t have to tell others what they should see ….

Dalip, since you don’t believe in spending time and energy on finding faults, why are you spending time and energy criticizing me? You don’t have to visit this blog, but you choose to do that. I guess what I write about is so full of truth and wonderfulness, you can’t stay away.

A spiritual guru must be 100%perfect persona this RSSB is not even 50%.
Guru Granth Shaib says that only a perfect Guru can enlighten you spritualy. unfortunately, In India mostly Gurus are either big business men or full of luxury and Lust full life.

This blog is a game changer and I have been visiting this blog for many years. Funny, how I found Brian was after I googled him upon reading his book, “Life is Fair” only to find he has left RSSB. I was having a lot of doubts about this path to begin with, but after reading this blog, I understood that there is no need to follow any other person as GIHF. We all will merge with the creator at some point of time as the source and the end is creation itself. I read all the comments here, so people have different opinions and rightfully so, but I guess, it’s ok and even an act of kindness to overlook some of the angry comments as those comments could be out of hurt of believing a guru who is in so much news for a lot of wrong reasons currently. We all can express what we want, but the commonality amongst all of us here is that we are thirsty for spiritual knowledge and desire to meet our creator. I wish everyone success in finding true happiness and the path to God realization. Brian, please keep posting as this news about GS and his nephews unravels, interesting to see what happens at the end.

Following was shared by a RSSB initiate and this is just one of many incidents I have heard from sincere followers of the path (credible sources such as my mother or people close to me who would never boast or lie) about how their Master guides and protects them and looks after both the swaarath (earthly) and parmarath (Godly). Many have seen their Master’s Radiant Form not only during meditation but also while facing difficulties and hardships in life.
Below is an excerpt from a fellow satsangi: 777
———————————————————————————————————————————————
So this is the story
If any body is reckognizing me, . . please keep silent.
Initiated in 1965 – I had the idea – This Path is much to difficult and exalted for me and if anything would result it’s not by my force , neither my interest, c q love
but two things of the vow-list I could easily do
The non-meat and the Simran
So I tried really hard this simran 24/7 and I started even using it which is not ‘allowed’ in business and so and I developped from a minus 1000 $ guy to the oppsite- then acquiring an IBM 360 at the time
using that computer ‘wisely’
and came to a point that someone offered me a fantastic home in the Saint Tropez neighbourhood of France, I moved in
but that was after 6 years to costly and my father in law phoning often saying ;
“You have to come back” – a lot is mismanaged and they steal even
I said OK, at your next visit here
please bring the bookkeeping papers and we go through it together
So he came and I said :
Let’s go to the beach and discuss and so we were on the beach and I saw that he was right and I had to give up this nice life
( in Holland there is a verb “like God in France” – kidding )
Twenty meters of where we were sitting there was a man reading the local newspaper : “THE NICE MATIN”
It’s rather heavy – full of advertisements
anyway – the man there was putting the Journal in the sand and went to the sea to swim
The weather was mild with almost no wind
The moment that i agreed to return to Holland as a final decision and we were a sort of voting ) I said
“I choose for Holland”
At that precise moment the NICE MATIN
by the force of the wind but I m not sure
went airborn
flew the whole 20 meters and landed halfway in my lap
and opened ( the man had closed it)
Immediately as if it was written with big characteres in the middle of the opened page
I saw written
“Nous choissisons Vivaldi”
This was so heavy a chocker because
in english this is
“WE CHOOSE VIVALDI”
that I immediately
added and changed my decision
in VIVALDI
because Vivaldi is the owner of the super house where I still live
and “WE” is pluralis majestatis
which gives a lot of goose busting or bursting
Then we took that Journal of August , 2 1986 in our hands
and saw that it was about the horse-racing in Gagnes-sur-Mer
and that one of the experts , mentioning a little list of 9 horses
had added his choice to be ‘VIVALDI’
But this story hasn’t ended yet
Looking to the list of the horses and yes, in the middle : there was Vivaldi
but the last one had the name RIGHTLY which was so nice an addiction
to the sphere we were in
BUT the first Horse on the list had the exalted name :
MAHARAJI
I still consider this Nice Matin as a Recommended Letter and it was
Cheers Guys, also the infidels, 🙂
<3
. . .
** I still possess this newpaper
and I have given copies to certain satsangis
because I will have it published ( also here ) after
my body will be no more
In 1991 I have send a copy to Gurinder, narcisticly thinking that it would be a great help to Him
and He answered me so nicely
That it was no wonder that Charan
helped his disciples and he thanked me for the letter and my narcistic invitation to come here for vacation
Sant Mat : There is much more to it
Make yourself invulnerable Guys here
and go in the Third Eye even while doing the NY Marathon
or paying in the casino
And try to hear that sweet tiny tone to start with
It's not Tinnitis which is an ugly often painful phenomenon
Every jeeva in creation will go this way -soon or a few big bangs later
* - I changed the name of the landlord into another componist for privicy reasons
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Firstly our body is our church.
Secondly we belive that the guru and the path is perfect and you will never understand until you have darshan of the guru.. but before that the guru decides who is his disciple..
Thank you..

My advice to RSSB believers who find it difficult to meditate because of the latest news about OUR Guru is to go on meditating.
Why?
Meditation is a means to the end and that end is the Ultimate Truth/God/ Creator or whatever name you’d like to call it.
The sole purpose of meditation is to create a desire to TRULY reunite with God, to loosen worldly ties and entanglements by detaching from this physical world and attaching ourselves to that divinity instead and to express a sincere and heartfelt desire to escape the cycle of birth and death.
IF you are repeating the 5 words for the ABOVE mentioned reasons, does God not know that? Is he that dumb to not know the PURPOSE of your repititon of the 5 words?
Focus at the eye centre and use meditation as a means to remember God and put this valuable human birth to some good use. Freedom from the cycle of birth and death is never unattainable…… to the ones who pine for it.

Hey whoever you are we are not saying anything about your religion then why are you all writing bad stuffs against us
And whosoever is writing against rssb is already a is already paid
Tell me how much money you get to say all these things against rssb .

I literally typed many sentences but i don’t want to post it because u and me are not same i have some sense to do all this..one thing i want to tell you we know what we are and what god is..you cannot take even a single drop from people following this because we know tha value of this…thank you for your useless time spending on this to post

You are illitrate

These ANGREJ (white people) are just want to dominate all over. Please see inside you then speak for others ….. MAD and EGO FULL people……

FOOL WHITE MAN
WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT OUR GREAT CULTURE WHICH IS BEING DEPICTING BY INFLUENCE OF WEST

Abcd, if I’m illiterate, how do I know that you misspelled “Illiterate” as “illitrate”?
True Human, I spent 35 years as a member of RSSB, and had lots of contact with Indians during that time. You sound rather racist with your talk of “fool white man” and such. Do most Indians think like you do? I sure hope not.

See.. Mr.please stop ..im begging u.. plzz stop ur talks… if u dont like dera.. then..its ur wish.. we have no problem at all.. ur wish.. ur life.. but there Are billion followers who trust.love.respect their spiritual life.. so dont ever try to misguide people.. okk.. this world gives democracy to everyone.. to choose there own lifestyle.. so .. all humans have brains to think about.. what is wrong and what is right… so i think.. u should have not to take care of all world.. u r not godson.. okk.. keep this stuff in ur mind.. nd lock it properly.. thnku so much.. 😊

Gurpreet, no one is forcing you to visit this blog and read the posts. I’ve been writing on this blog since 2004, so 14 years. I’m not going to stop now, because I enjoy writing about “churchless” matters.
I also want to observe that it is very rare in the United States to demand that someone stop speaking and writing about an issue, in part because we have a First Amendment that guarantees free speech.
So it sounds strange to me when Indians, or anyone, tell me to keep my thoughts in my mind. That is just almost unheard of in the United States. We argue, we debate, we insult, we discuss. But very rarely do people say, “You don’t have a right to say that,” because we Americans know that we do have that right.
In this regard, I believe India has something to learn from the United States. Free speech is a wonderful thing. It is a foundation of democracy. It gives everybody the chance to be heard, to express themselves. It stimulates understanding of important issues. Your country needs more free speech, not less. (I’m assuming you live in India.)

Unless and Until u do Gurus darshan and there is current in ur body and u have tears in ur EYES and ur WHOLE body is getting attracted to Guru just like magnet attract iron U WILL not understand RSSB and if u r stamped then u will be initiated and then u will know the real meaning of GuRu

Rajni, I was initiated by the RSSB guru, Charan Singh, in 1971. I’ve had his darshan and also the darshan of Gurinder Singh. I meditated as instructed every day for 35 years. So I do know the real meaning of “guru.”

Brian
I agree with you that India should learn freedom of speech from US but Americans should learn love and devotion from indians

Hi Rajni
You wrote
Unless and Until u do Gurus darshan and there is current in ur body and u have tears in ur EYES and ur WHOLE body is getting attracted to Guru just like magnet attract iron U WILL not understand RSSB and if u r stamped then u will be initiated and then u will know the real meaning of GuRu”
I think this explains a lot.
It is natural to feel love.
And unfortunate anyone takes advantage of that.
And worse still if they believe it is right to do so

This guy spent 35 years following RSSB so we should listen to him 😂 dude, you took a calculator along and messed up everything…. well, we have many people who followed RSSB for more than 35yrs and they still follow… they dont write blogs 😢 and the way you are advising people here, take my advise, start writing novels pal 👌 you got the talent and that frustration whats required !!

“Americans should learn love and devotion from indians”
Yeah I gotta disagree. Your so called love and devotion is why rapists are worshipped and celebrated and any dork who reads the gita can get rich.
We already have a stupid celebrity culture here which is equal in devotion. We don’t need more layers of fake love.

“take my advise, start writing novels pal 👌 you got the talent and that frustration whats required !!”
Rajiv, RSSB hired Brian to write books for them and he also did personal security for Gurinder.
Your baba is a guy on a stage who you’ll never meet. Instead of telling people what to think you should listen to people who know more than you.
But you won’t because the dunning kruger effect is all too real…. except in Japan for some reason. Japanese are a truly great race.

35yrs of his useless life and he doesn’t know that babaji tells us to play our role in responsibilities at home, society and work. To manage what we have and live with it !!
35yrs of a wasted life and he digged into singh brothers life cuz he couldn’t find life of his own 😢 well, its a blog and lemme take advantage of US freedom of speech here…. i never paid or received a single penny to/from RSSB in 40yrs of my life, Babaji kept telling always ke bhajan simran karo ye shareer ke darshan karke kuch nai milna which truely indicates that he himself doesn’t wish us to k

35yrs of his useless life and he doesn’t know that babaji tells us to play our role in responsibilities at home, society and work. To manage what we have and live with it !!
35yrs of a wasted life and he digged into singh brothers life cuz he couldn’t find life of his own 😢 well, its a blog and lemme take advantage of US freedom of speech here…. i never paid or received a single penny to/from RSSB in 40yrs of my life, Babaji kept telling always ke bhajan simran karo ye shareer ke darshan karke kuch nai milna which truely indicates that he himself doesn’t wish us to keep visiting his place and body… well, these are the things that made babaji’s concept a bit appealing to my soul….
Secondly, i have studied ayurvedic medicine that dates back to vedic period. Its a bit more than 35 years of this banyan tree’s life that he spent at RSSB though his strength of words and choice of news and statements in this blog are just perfect in accordance with his intentions.. Well, we have shatchakras in our body that are very well described in ayurveda and the teachings of RSSB follow exactly the same line but with much superior level that can be known only when you read the science or atleast any holy book that a religion may follow.. its the same everywhere !!!
Thirdly, even i’m a bit practical kinda person and i wouldn’t submit my faith that blindly upon texts written in books…. shatchakras are the six energy points inside our body and going exactly with what the texts had to say, having mastered them with meditation one can have immense powers within himself like ability to leave his body and reach far away places, control over 5 elements like fire water earth sky and air, telepathy, much much much more…… its clearly mentioned there that there is a lot much above these shatchakras but only rarest of rare can have that ability and power to reach there or make a balance with that power……. well, all that was in texts and books from vedic period that we learnt in details to explain in writing for passing exams…..
A follower and a devotee of RSSB , a very old and kind of a very silent person, somewhat living in his own world always, deeply into meditation…. he happened to live near to my place…. went ill in his old age and it was like 2 days before he died that he told of the day and even that morning hours when he was to leave to his family in his broken n old cottage but in my presence……… i know this cuz nobody told me a story, i was there !! RSSB is a path that starts above 10th chakra my friend and the way of meditation, the whole science is exactly the same as described in those books written in vedic period but without a relationship or purpose limited or even related to powers…. its related to the supreme but with a purity of heart mind and soul….. u cant reach or even think og reaching there with shortcuts or dobuts in the path that u follow… its written the same in holy books of every religion !!
This was just a small example of what made me trust….
Gurinder singh did this, he did that, he is a corrupt or a thief……. you wasted your 35yrs pal….. !!!! Mere 6 months but with full dedication and trust would have shown you what exactly RSSB and teachings of a guru are….. u couldn’t control your mind, ur mind defeated you by telling that your brain ur senses and ur knowledge are above everything and you created a blog in support ….. 35? Even at this hour, even at age of 70, even at a full dedication into RSSB for nearly 50-55yrs my parents are meditating at this very moment and they are highly educated to know the difference between whats faith and whats fake…. and there are billion of others like them…. they must be receiving something that keeps them going for so many years… what say???
Aight !! People are dumb and you , ur experiences n theories n education n knowledge may be right….. still, u won’t find a single RSSB follower who would humiliate your faith into your theories.. unlike what you do by writing such blogs…. doesn’t RSSB atleast make us a better human being in the first place? …. no compulsions, follow ur theories n path n whatever…… and dont reply cuz i won’t revisit … im not in dobut or having interest for debates or refining anyone…. ciao !!

Lol….. they deleted my post 😂 stupid cowards

Rajiv
The point of irritation is the news.
The reports.
You are most welcome to share news facts or your opinion about those things.
Brian is doing Maharaji’s will. He is uniquely well suited to it.
Brian has a history of pointing to fact.
Once you go beyond emotion and understand this, all there is left is admiration.
And a desire to reconcile these facts.
You are human. You can be wrong.
Any one of us can be.
Facts are the only tools humans have.
So please offer some.

Spence…. i appreciate your words 👍 i dont call him wrong or even judge him for anything at all….. yeah, i can be wrong and so can you or this blogger i forgot that name sorry…… you guys spoke of what news and thoughts you are having and i spoke about mine…. its a blog after all 😢

Rajiv, nobody deleted your post. You got your facts wrong. Your post went into the Typepad spam folder, where I just found it and published it. See, you can be wrong when you jump to unjustified conclusions. This is a good lesson for religious believers. Think. Consider all the possibilities. Say to yourself, “I could be wrong.”

Kindly keep this comment here…. dont delete…. let your news and views and mine be here to keep it fair and unbiased 👍 i just wrote what i know and have practically seen , the way blogger has written…… and Gudbye after that 😊
……..
35yrs of his useless life and he doesn’t know that babaji tells us to play our role in responsibilities at home, society and work. To manage what we have and live with it !!
35yrs of a wasted life and he digged into singh brothers life cuz he couldn’t find life of his own 😢 well, its a blog and lemme take advantage of US freedom of speech here…. i never paid or received a single penny to/from RSSB in 40yrs of my life, Babaji kept telling always ke bhajan simran karo ye shareer ke darshan karke kuch nai milna which truely indicates that he himself doesn’t wish us to keep visiting his place and body… well, these are the things that made babaji’s concept a bit appealing to my soul….
Secondly, i have studied ayurvedic medicine that dates back to vedic period. Its a bit more than 35 years of this banyan tree’s life that he spent at RSSB though his strength of words and choice of news and statements in this blog are just perfect in accordance with his intentions.. Well, we have shatchakras in our body that are very well described in ayurveda and the teachings of RSSB follow exactly the same line but with much superior level that can be known only when you read the science or atleast any holy book that a religion may follow.. its the same everywhere !!!
Thirdly, even i’m a bit practical kinda person and i wouldn’t submit my faith that blindly upon texts written in books…. shatchakras are the six energy points inside our body and going exactly with what the texts had to say, having mastered them with meditation one can have immense powers within himself like ability to leave his body and reach far away places, control over 5 elements like fire water earth sky and air, telepathy, much much much more…… its clearly mentioned there that there is a lot much above these shatchakras but only rarest of rare can have that ability and power to reach there or make a balance with that power……. well, all that was in texts and books from vedic period that we learnt in details to explain in writing for passing exams…..
A follower and a devotee of RSSB , a very old and kind of a very silent person, somewhat living in his own world always, deeply into meditation…. he happened to live near to my place…. went ill in his old age and it was like 2 days before he died that he told of the day and even that morning hours when he was to leave to his family in his broken n old cottage but in my presence……… i know this cuz nobody told me a story, i was there !! RSSB is a path that starts above 10th chakra my friend and the way of meditation, the whole science is exactly the same as described in those books written in vedic period but without a relationship or purpose limited or even related to powers…. its related to the supreme but with a purity of heart mind and soul….. u cant reach or even think og reaching there with shortcuts or dobuts in the path that u follow… its written the same in holy books of every religion !!
This was just a small example of what made me trust….
Gurinder singh did this, he did that, he is a corrupt or a thief……. you wasted your 35yrs pal….. !!!! Mere 6 months but with full dedication and trust would have shown you what exactly RSSB and teachings of a guru are….. u couldn’t control your mind, ur mind defeated you by telling that your brain ur senses and ur knowledge are above everything and you created a blog in support ….. 35? Even at this hour, even at age of 70, even at a full dedication into RSSB for nearly 50-55yrs my parents are meditating at this very moment and they are highly educated to know the difference between whats faith and whats fake…. and there are billion of others like them…. they must be receiving something that keeps them going for so many years… what say???

Ayurveda is maybe the least effective form of “medicine” of all time, Rajiv. Not to mention that nothing in this article is about ayurved so it’s weird that you brought it up.
Just because something is old doesn’t mean it’s good.
Westerners reading these comments from the subcontinent probably miss the implicit ethno supremacism in many of the posts. If you were reading into it like I am, you’d be laughing much harder at this stuff.

Aight…. Brian either u were wrong those 35yrs or ur wrong now… for me, u didnt read my text maybe…. and religious followers is what u called me? Lol…. this site and blog, everything is new to me and i know many sites where people can delete posts when they are the admins to a certain page… my post was strictly against and unappealing to you and a bunch of other people here……. i forgot her name she wrote “listen to people who know more than you” .. does she even know what i know?? How do people decide here?? Nobody happens or claims to be a cyber dictator as such !!
Rajiv certainly can be wrong cuz rajiv is a human being but its the same with you and everyone out there….. lets respect each others point of views and cut the crap…. now i read that alias “jesse”… jesse, did u go inside my head and life for a while to know my knowledge and compare it with someone else ?? 😊

Jesse 😱 there u show up again !!!
I care a damn about what you have to say…. i didnt teach ayurveda here…. i said that it was very well known then, its very much into practise now and i have many practically seen and felt facts that made me believe…. and im NOT speaking of ayurveda, its just a reference i gave in support of time… and i myself want you to giggle 👍 i’m doing the same…. there’s nothing wrong at staying happy lol … and just to conclude here i’d like to say that i dont enjoy talking to the bullets and blind n frustrated people… i talk to guns, i analyse their point of view, i read their complete state of mind and intentions and then i dont mind at refining them or even if its for me to admit if i’m myself wrong or incomplete at knowledge……. blogger definitely seems to have a refined soul but full of confusions and you all are simply the people who nod their heads finding yourself frustrated and sailing somewhere in the same boat……
You guys couldn’t satisfy me and i couldn’t satisf you…. lets all walk on our own paths without insulting each other is what i meant in the beginning and is what i still mean 👍

Hey, I’m just a kid so I don’t know much about the topic u r discussing but aren’t you all more concerned about the ‘group’ rather than what the purpose is? I have been a radhasoami since I was born and even before that. Maybe it is because of the culture difference or language difference but when u talk about all of this I cannot feel any of the vibes I would naturally feel when I am listening to a satsang. It has been 18 years of my life and no one in my family or during any of the satsangs did any one say that I will suffer in the afterlife if I don’t follow this path. Trust me it comes naturally. Why focus on science and truth and being in a higher state when not even once u mentioned that all of this is because of a reason. That reason being our love for God. Do you love him? Do u trust him? If yes then why do u worry about what’s happening with him(master)? You just need to focus on your love for God and he will not disappoint you. If you trust him he will not let u go on the wrong path. RSSB is a location where people come to seek guidance and not a religious group. It is not in any form religion. It is you your guru and God. No one else in between. If just anyone can go to that place (I’m not talking about beas but the place we are meditating to go to) then why would we be working hard? You are tested and it just requires a small ripple to break your trust apart then it is better if u don’t meditate. Why can’t you understand? Human brain is not enough to see everything if it was then rather than writing this blog you would have been a master. Did you follow everything that was said or did you mix it up with what other people said (they don’t know any better than you if they can’t guide you right) did you just follow the rules ( meant for your own good. You breaking them would not harm me or master) or did you meditate with all your desire? Did you ever for once succeed in meditation? Did you ever see master guiding you through the dark? Did you ever feel the mutual love of God? Did you ever cry just because you want to go back to him? If not then did you really experience what truly sant mat is? Did you experience his protection?( If you didn’t then maybe your faith was not enough). It makes me sick that your point of view about RSSB is just this. It is so much more. Standing at the feet of mountain and you only notice rubble because your view isn’t high enough. Trust me and take my word for it. I have been a radhasoami even in my previous life. My family from my mother’s side has been into meditation since lives and they know what they talk about in satsangs. I don’t blame you because if you haven’t experienced it, it is easy to take it the wrong way. There is always a reason why he does things they way he does. It was fate to have seen this blog when I don’t even check my phone for days. And it was fate that I commented on it when I usually don’t even care. But I pity you really. No matter how much I type I cannot explain what sant mat is just by plain words. And a real satsangi won’t be sad or broken hearted or angry at this post or any news about him because we know he will deal with it all because we trust his capabilities,what we need to focus is on meditating. We know his capabilities. I don’t know if you have read it till the end but if you did then I thank you for putting effort in writing so much material so that I can comment on it. It doesn’t matter if you get what I mean. But if you feel like you want to talk to me then I will love to have a talk with you( I highly doubt you would want to tho). May God show you the truth.

“lets all walk on our own paths without insulting each other is what i meant in the beginning and is what i still mean 👍”
Hey that’s a good idea, but I find trading insults to be a fun time.
How about we meet in the middle and keep the insults light?

What a clash between cultures and beliefs! For those who are upset it is important for you to know that Brian, the owner of this blog, was a satsangi many years ago and is now an Atheist.
Atheists do not believe in a God or gods. They do not believe in a spirit, or a soul. After death there is no reward, no judgment, no heaven, no hell, when they die they are dead and there is nothing else.
Satsangis following a spiritual path have very different beliefs and when I look at the difference between an atheist and a spiritual person there seems to be a huge chasm dividing them.

Dear fellow satsangi brothers and sisters,
Our Master tirelessly explains the value and importance of humility, speaking kind words and minimizing our karmic load on our spiritual journey.
The above is the very basis of spirituality, please avoid hurling insults at the ‘angrez’ as this act would not make our Master happy and in fact leaves a bad name for his disciples too.
They may have their own views and thoughts and likewise we have ours too.
You can express your love, devotion and faith in the path and make your point (even though honestly speaking, there is no such need to) but without saying harsh/unkind words please.
An elderly uncle used to say that ‘These Radha Soamis take so much care of what goes IN their mouth (because of being strict vegetarians) but not of what goes OUT of their mouth.
We are all human and are bound to react but remember that every karma, every insult (whether light or heavy) needs to be accounted for.

Hi Jasmine!
You wrote, quite eloquently:
“Did you ever for once succeed in meditation? Did you ever see master guiding you through the dark? Did you ever feel the mutual love of God? Did you ever cry just because you want to go back to him? ”

——–“Dear fellow satsangi brothers and sisters,
Our Master tirelessly explains the value and importance of humility, speaking kind words and minimizing our karmic load on our spiritual journey.
The above is the very basis of spirituality, please avoid hurling insults at the ‘angrez’ as this act would not make our Master happy and in fact leaves a bad name for his disciples too.
They may have their own views and thoughts and likewise we have ours too.
You can express your love, devotion and faith in the path and make your point (even though honestly speaking, there is no such need to) but without saying harsh/unkind words please.
An elderly uncle used to say that ‘These Radha Soamis take so much care of what goes IN their mouth (because of being strict vegetarians) but not of what goes OUT of their mouth.
We are all human and are bound to react but remember that every karma, every insult (whether light or heavy) needs to be accounted for.
Posted by: Vicky | September 18, 2018 at 05:57 PM—–”
This is the rare quality, that is the reason so many westerners are attracted to join RSSB. They come from far off, Actuality they are more attracted towards humility and spirituality which they don’t find there.
Their Governments have given them freedom of speech, but have not taught them how to avoid hurting others’ sentiments. They think that as their Government has given them freedom of speech so that they are free to tell anybody as Pig openly. They are not even ashamed to whom they are pointing.
The Blogger is in 70s. Though he has writing skills, but for learning – humility and spirituality, very difficult now. The values which are missing at the age of 70s, how can they come in his rest of life?
The Blogger has to think seriously about himself rather than RSSB and other faiths and try to learn and follow humility fist.

Naresh calls himself, his religion and his country the best, and says they also have the most humility.
This is the definition of “humble brag.”

Jesse
What Rajeev and Naresh mean is you people mind your own business.Why to criticise a master of millions.If you do not believe him,do not believe but no need to criticise him.If you adopted a path from India ,you should respect sentiments of Indian Sangat also.

“you people mind your own business”
Dharam (misnomer), why don’t you dimwit satsangis mind your own business? Nobody is forcing you to come to this blog and whine like little bitches trying to control what I say.
I don’t care about any Indian except my wife and I certainly don’t care about your thief baba or his idiotic sangat of dupes.I think you’re one of the most corrupt and backward people who’ve ever lived and I have every right to express my dislike of you, your country or any one of your religions any time I want.
None of you have enough sense to say anything relevant about RSSB or the possibility that your lame guru sold dirty meds to epileptics. Baba Gurinder is just one of a million idols to you. Ethics, morality, none of these things matter and they never will because you’d worship anything that you’re told to worship. You’ll be the same superstitious and backward people you are today 2000 years from now because you’re the product of irreversible dysgenics.
Good luck with the brain drain and good luck being broke losers getting tricked by guru celebrities until the end of time.

Hello everyone
It’s quite amusing to read all the comments from believers as well as church less ones.
All the religions are basically business, just their modus operandi is different from each other. They basically survive on fear and tell us about things that we fear. It’s human nature to always go in past or future, we don’t like to live in present. Religion take advantage of our fears and insecurities and further their propaganda.
The song called GODMEN and religious elite use us and we willingly do what they expect or want us to do. Be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism or any recent sects or whatever you call them.
They all say the same things. We should speak truth, love others,stop hate, don’t run after worldly possessions, lead moral life, give donations, shouldn’t question, obey them, love them and so on. Just their way of saying is different.
Funny thing is that they do the opposite of what they preach. They collect money, abuse women and kids, buy big properties, make churches, temples etc, hate other religions etc. Etc.
You can donate any amount to them, they will happily take it. But if you eat lunch at another person’s home, the load of your karmas will increase and you will have to take birth again to return the favor. What BS!
We should love our guru or perfect master or anyone in that position. They rape and take advantage of the women and kids that love them. They all stress on complete surrender. When you surrender, they do as they want to. They do it, because they all know the futility of all this BS.
We just can’t tolerate the views of anyone who doesn’t agree with us. So much for love and compassion that we say we are getting from following a particular path. We just act like sheep, follow blindly.
Now, coming to RSSB and it’s current problems. It’s not a religion or path. It’s just a cut and paste thing. They just try to cut teaching of old religions,saints etc and try to push that mocktail down the throat of believers. Why is teaching of guru granth Sahib not taught by Radhaswami dyalbagh people? Beas line focus on selected parts of gurbaani because majority in North INDIA already know it and they try to spin it as it suits them. Rest in later comment.
Good luck everyone.

Yeah, Best, that’s pretty much it.

Jesse
No doubt,you are materially advanced.I just rquested you to stop hurting sentiments of Indian Sangat. But there are believers from America and all over the world.You may take care of them.
But writing so rudely shows your level of frustration and ego. Do not lose temper .Just relax and think ,”Does criticising benefit You.”
Suggestion was given to you since you told you are initiate of Maharaj Ji.
One thing more,Master never dealt in medicines,don’t write baseless things.
Ranabaxy was owned by Singh brothers who are his nephews. And I wrote earlier also one cannot be blamed for any wrongdoing of relatives.And so far as medicines are concerned, they are not pharma educated.Execution of business is handled by experts appointed by businessmen and those experts are responsible for any wrongdoing in manufacturing.
Again,relax!

Jesse
jockily saying.
We,in India have date 19Seotember,11:50 am
here wheras You have still
18 September there.
That way,we are ahead of you,atleast in time.

Jesse
One thing more,for example if a citizen criticises President of a country,it will least affect to the president and he will enjoy his full term of appontment.But it may hurt to his counrymen.
If You are free tto criticise due to freedom of speech,we are free to request you on behalf of millions of followers all over the world not to criticise our Master.Final decision is yours.

Both sides of this discussion have some good and some crap. The wise among us will pick and choose the best from both. That’s how human intelligence comes into play, not just by tearing each other down wittily (though that’s fun). 🙂
Practicing satsangis do indeed develop love, joy, meaning and calm focus (best case scenario). Otherwise, who would do these practices, sometimes for decades on end? However, these folks (incl. their leadership) superstitiously attribute these benefits to false, unsubstantiated causes. This can quickly deteriorate into religious dogma, fanaticism and fraud.
Materialists / atheists see a bit more clearly in terms of scientific, material, cause/effect truths (best case scenario), but are often (not always) cynical, joyless and lack a sense of larger purpose / duty.
We don’t need a world that’s split between extreme materialists and supernaturalists. That, IMO, is hell.
We need more scientists who have a profound love for and sense of duty to the world and humanity.
We need spiritualists who aren’t afraid to doubt and test their beliefs so they can separate the gold from the dirt, and share the good stuff with the rest of us. [Scientific research shows that there are indeed health / emotional benefits to religious practices.]
Like everywhere else in the US (and world) right now, people on this blog (with a few exceptions) seem to separating into extreme, warring camps.
IMO, the satsangis especially should not use harsh language. Each time they use words of racism or hate in their comments, they are degrading their path. If you are so ruffled by comments on a blog, you need to meditate more!

@ Dharam : What kind of comment was that ? ” We are ahead of you, at least in time. ” ( ? ) That’s just funny ! What you are also suggesting is that the West could be ahead in other ways, in more important ways and that’s because India may never be able to get out of its collective Guru-con and the majority will always be blind.
Don’t read this blog if you feel so disturbed. You really are as clueless about the financial misappropriations as you are about Sant Mat. Why don’t you start a blog of your own for all the RSSB’ers / Satsangis ?
This is the Church of the Imperfect Oregonian. Dera Saccha Salem. Baba Brian Hines Ji Maharaj. Truth Wale.
( Okay, let’s have a few laughs and agree to disagree, you have a good day Dharam. )

Stop being such a fragile sissy, Dharam. Are you and “millions” of other Indians really that scared of some random Jesse’s comment?
If that’s the case, your faith is already on very shaky ground.
btw, I’m Indian American and don’t give two craps what Jesse says…as long as its entertaining, lol. Don’t make Indians look bad!!

Bombay Blonde
I really meant it that you are ahead of us in all fields,rather ahead of whole world.
I wish all the best to Baba Brian Hines Ji Maharaj,Truth Wale of Dera Sacha Salem.

Do you guys think that Babaji gives a care about what these guys say about him? Saints are above both ninda (insults/ slander) and tareef (praise). If he doesn’t care, why do you?
It may be hurtful to hear such things about our Master esp if they come from the one and only foul-mouthed Jesse, but eventually, he will need to deal with his own karma. so let him be.
No one can escape the canons of this beautiful law of karma….. so….to each his own.
Pleading or begging these guys to stop saying such things is a futile waste of energy and time. They won’t stop, they will do what they have to do and they are right in a way that this blog was created for this sole purpose. so leave them at it.
Let us instead focus on what we have to do.
Peace, love and blessings to all my fellow satsangis and to the churchless ones too 😉

We are not afraid of anybody’s comment .Our faith is on the solid ground.But nobody including Satsangis should use absurd language.By the way,criticisers are also all satsangis and ex RSSB associates.Baseless allegations such as blaming master for any mistakes by his relatives is wrong.
This fight is among satsangis and ex satsangis who are spreading rumours just because they were fired from their sewa due to indiscipline and disobedience.
Since ,they are using RSSB sub title for their blog,RSSB members have right to object to rumours and baseless allegations but nobody should use racist and absurd language.

@ Dharam : Speaking of being ahead, can’t you see that you are at least bothering to read some of the stuff that’s posted here ? That’s called being ahead. Give yourself some credit ! If only you’d care to take a closer look at your own potential and find a way to build a new and more authentic life and purpose. Go back to the original precepts of ” dharma ” … you’ll find more peace and joy in the simplicity of everyday religion.
You aren’t marked. You aren’t special. Don’t let anyone make you believe in any of that crap that keeps you from taking responsibility and gives you a false sense of superiority. It’s a twisted way to live.
You are clinging to your beliefs. I’ve been there. It’s a life and death situation.

Hi Dharam
You wrote
“Baseless allegations such as blaming master for any mistakes by his relatives is wrong.”
I’m sorry Dharam but the incidents that are now week documented not only involve Gurindar but RSSB as well.
They are evidence. A court can determine a verdict.
There is an extensive basis for the allegations of embezzlement, fraud, conflict of interest, nepotism and cronyism.
These have been tried extensively.
Your comment did not honor the evidence. You may draw different conclusions, but if you deny simple factual evidence, there really is no basis for dialogue.
You may talk at others and over others, but if you wish to communicate, it is best to talk with others. And naturally listening with respect and sincerity and part and parcel of that.

Just to provide easy access to the facts, here is a summary and links to the evidence
Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.
https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm
And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/
Worse, we learn that the contractor was hired to build a new RSSB hospital to replace the old one. But once the old hospital was demolished, Gurindar, through RSSB, sold those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital. There were no community or public hearings about this. The contractor who sued RSSB claimed this switch was done “in a clandestine manner.”
And we read of the myriad companies Gurindar has placed family members, including his wife, into principle roles, siphoning illegal loans from Fortis into these through the Singhs.
Here’s some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion
https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

And in this extensive expose, brought forward by Brian and colleagues, the link directly to Gurindar and his wife, as well as some RSSB board members who formed Prius Real estate investments, which received loans siphoned by the Singh brothers while at Fortis, where Gurindar’s wife is also a major shareholder, is detailed…
http://hinessight.blogs.com/files/singh-brothers-story.pdf

… can a sane voice out there just give me a blog-slap for my polite attempts with the RS Looney Brigade ?
I really want to be empathetic … but, but, but …
” Baseless allegations such as blaming Master for any mistakes by his relatives is wrong. ”
Dharam, you have proved that being indoctrinated has no limits.
You have proved that the truth is so evident that you have resorted to denying the very existence of it.

@dharam, ahead or behind. Nobody cares. Cultures and peoples come and go.
The point is that Gurinder was caught in unethical acts and so many are saying we should stop discussing it or calling them “baseless” as you have.
The accusations are not baseless. Some are confirmed. Everyone’s gonna keep talking about your guru and investigating whether or not it hurts anyone’s feelings. Get used to it and expect rude replies every time you request an end to inquiry and discussion.

“Baba Brian Hines Ji Maharaj,Truth Wale of Dera Sacha Salem”
he he – had a laugh 😀
Dharam, with this comment, you’ve made this post/page worth reading.

Can’t you all stop please? 😭🙇🙏
This discussion is baseless. If radhasoami follow the wrong path according to you then let them. If atheists don’t want to believe in spirituality, let them be. Can’t we all mind our own business including me. It was the biggest mistake of my life to have read this. I wish I never did. I really don’t give a damn about whatever fraud happened. All I know is that I have no one else. No reason to live. Without him I really wouldn’t have survived all these years in a broken family. You wouldn’t know but I do because he is the only family I have and the only one I can trust. Can’t you elders go a little easy on us kids. I really hope that one day you come across the truth and that day you feel the guilt of what you did to me and all the other followers. I am not perfect and he accepts me as I am so why can’t I accept him as he is? I will and I will love him till eternity. I really wish you could get in my brain and see what I have seen. Feel what I feel. Know what I do. If you think he is a false guru then why is it wrong? No atheist or normal human being loved me and tried to save me when I was about to take my life. He did. Fake or not perfect or not? As long as it is him I will live for him. So stop trying to tell me the reality you live in because I prefer to live in what you call fraud. It really makes me so so sad to see people I should be looking up to and learning from fighting like this and trying to force their ideals on each other.May god bless you.

Spence its GurindEr not GurindAr.
….Bombay Blonde, nice comments.

Using an A would make it a more consistent transliteration, “suspense.” Same with Panjaab instead of Punjab which westerners often call Poonjaib because of it.
Jasmine152k, get off the internet if you can’t handle it. Nobody is going to stop investigating Gurindar from Poonjaib.
You’ve never met the guy so don’t expect much from the trust. People say the same things about lady gaga. “She saved my life.”

Quote Spence : http://hinessight.blogs.com/files/singh-brothers-story.pdf
That article presents a complete picture of the financial interests of GSD’s family. Impressive!
All of these details about RSSB are of only peripheral interest to me (unlike the RSSB faithfuls and ex-faithfuls), and I haven’t really been going too much into the details of these unending exposes. I suppose I must have missed this link : I suppose this is something Brian must have published some time, given that the PDF is of a CotC link?
Anyway, thanks for posting this. An interesting read.

Ur right Jesse I can’t handle it. When I was about to commit suicide because my father no longer wanted me, I saw his love for me. I’ve never met the guy? Indeed I haven’t but when I was disappointed with my life and asked him to forgive me for being so weak and he did. Thousands of people in the satsang but it felt like he was talking to me. Specifically telling me it will be alright. Tell me should I visit a doctor? Am I insane. Yes I am. I am on medsfor depression and anxiety. I hope you fall in love with someone just like me. I hope at least for a fleeting moment god shows you the truth so you know what you took away from me. I can’t handle it so I will get off the internet. Thank you for your care and concern. I was an idiot to believe that for once someone will understand me. You are no different from my father. If I am weak I don’t deserve to live right?

Hi Jasmine,
You indeed deserve to live and thrive. We are ALL weak at times. And no one here can take anything from you unless you let them.
Continue to do your practice and enjoy the RSSB faith & community as you are getting strength from these. Meditation, faith and community are powerful things.
However, people are also free to discuss any RSSB wrongdoings and work through these topics. Many people are impacted by these events and are trying to sort it all out. You must respect their needs as well.
My advice would be to stop reading this blog as the discussion upsets you. Better to meditate.
Have a great day, and stay strong!

@ Jasmine : Being weak is human, but don’t let it define you. You have been brave enough to come this far, and you have it in you to tide over whatever it is that has caused you so much pain. All of us are capable of turning our lives around. For the moment, spend time with your real life friends and don’t read stuff that causes you so much grief, especially if you cannot handle it. Take care of yourself, you are stronger than you think you are.

good pointers for those who are seeking to heal after involvement with radha soami satsang dera.
My husband has had a hard time disengaging. blessings to all who are in the same boat

Jasmine. If something is helping you, then don’t go out of your way to listen to people who don’t believe in the same thing.
Being on this site is like being a recovering alcoholic in a pub. Makes no sense.

Vicky, you said that this blog was created for the sole purpose of criticizing RSSB. This isn’t correct.
Actually, I started it in November 2004 after the re-election of President George W. Bush, who got a lot of support from the religious right (conservatives) in the United States. Mixing religion and politics bothered me so much, I wanted to start a blog about churchlessness.
When I started Church of the Churchless I was still a RSSB devotee, though I had some doubts at that time. If you read my early posts, you’ll see this reflected in what I wrote about. Those posts mostly were about subjects unrelated to RSSB, though a few were.
I enjoyed writing “God’s here, but I’ve got to go” early on. See:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2004/11/gods_here_but_i

Hi Jasmine!
The inner support you received is real. Believe in that.
But keep in mind the Master at best will connect you to the Spirit.
And if one teacher has flaws, that does not reflect in any way with the spirit.
We all have flaws.
So all that Baba Ji can ever do, at best, is connect you to the power of the spirit within you.
So long as you are making good progress there, continue.
No better Teacher can do any more than that.
If you find that you have reached the limit of what Baba Ji can do, you are most welcome to investigate any one else.
Where there are photocopies, there is an original.
And if you have a photocopy in your hand, do not dispair. It also serves a function.
And your faith should be strengthened that the original is also there, when you are ready for it.

Hi Jesse:
You wrote:
“Jasmine152k, get off the internet if you can’t handle it. Nobody is going to stop investigating Gurindar from Poonjaib.
You’ve never met the guy so don’t expect much from the trust. People say the same things about lady gaga. “She saved my life.”
Jesse, I’m not sure I would like you very much. And there are things you and I do not agree upon.
But for whatever reason when I read what you write I can’t help bursting out in laughter.
You have a wicked sense of humor and timing.
Humor is a universal language. Where spirituality has failed to bring the world together, humor succeeds in an instant.
Thank you!

Here are some questions –
(1) Is every Master a PLM? or is it possible that a light or sound Master is an Astral Master, Causal Master or Par Brahm Master?
(2) Could an Astral Master/Causal Master give significant inner experiences? They are operating under the Kal/Mind domain after all and should be able to give significant “inner experiences” generated by the mind.
(3) Could an Astral Master/Causal Master bi locate? Doesn’t anyone who reaches the Astral stage acquire the possibility to bi locate? So, can we merely trust similar outer experiences?
(4) Does a PLM always appoint another PLM? or is it possible that a PLM can appoint a non-perfect Master?
(5) Do successive PLMs always take birth in the same family?
(6) How do we identify a PLM? Are we capable of identifying a PLM? How will we recognize a PLM?
(7) Are feelings/emotions generated from lower chakras (heart)? How do we tell if we are operating from lower chakras/our Mind versus our Soul?

@ jasmine ! I read what you wrote – I really hope you read this.
Stay strong I myself come from a very bad history with no family and yes I found a way forward but to do that you must believe in yourself ! You have as much right to be here than anyone and state your case and feelings and I’m sure Brian would agree!
Bombay Blonde wrote a beautiful blog to you and I agree we are all weak but we have strength also – if Master gave you strength I am sure the Lord will give you strength in the future.
I become a solider as it was my only way out – it started as a selfish endeavour and as soon as I saw the suffering caused by some – it became a mission to serve and protect the weak and those who could not defend them selves – to me that’s my seva.
You are stronger than I ever was or will be! Believe in yourselves – and ignore the idiots who write offensive things. They are children or as I call them key board warriors – you are a real warrior more so than me – for being honest and open. That takes strength!
God bless and believe in yourself.
All the very best
Arjuna

@ Brian – please post my reply to a certain lady here – it’s compassion

Arjuna, I’m not sure what you mean. Wasn’t your reply just published above your comment asking me to post your reply?

Sorry Brian – I thought it hadn’t come through. My fault. Hope you are well and thank you.

My RSSB brothers/sisters, I guess it’s best not waste time with the blogger for that’s his new job- to blog! But rather put all the energy in our real work… For what do we have to worry about the blogger???!!! – Nothing at all if u ask me. Let’s continue listening to the Sound and seeing that Light and we shall be there with the Ultimate Being, our Lord! And let’s not forget to always be a good example to others… Let’s not talk with our mouths but let our actions talk for us!

Sk-Ug, just to keep things factual here… I’ve been blogging since 2003, so this certainly isn’t a new thing for me. And it isn’t a job, it is a labor of love, to speak the truth as I see it. I have earned exactly nothing during the past 15 years from my blogging (I now have three blogs, this one plus HinesSight and Salem Political Snark).

Hi AJ
. Excellent questions.
Swam Shiv Dayal Singh in Sar Bachan points out that gurus in the first and second regions of Spirit all thought they were perfect, and the lord of that region was God, and there was nothing beyond.
And so did their disciples.
As for question 5, Maharaji didn’t appoint Gurindar to be a perfect Master.
He appointed him to continue the work as the organization’s head, to initiate people into the teachings of the Spirit.
Subtle difference.

@Jasmine,
Only you know what it’s been like to walk on your journey of life and only you know what the Master has done and will continue to do for you. He will always provide guidance, love and heal those under his protection and trust me, if it is only he that you have in your life- it is enough.
Stay blessed and keep well.
Lots of love, blessings and good wishes.
Vicky
@Brian- Ah, I see, thank you for the clarification. Didn’t know that.

Sk – Ug says let’s not forget to always be a good example to others… Let’s not talk with our mouths but let our actions talk for us!
Very good advice, that you might perhaps give to your own guru. His actions are now talking for him and what they are saying is its okay to borrow a lot of money and then not return it when the people who helped you really need it. Your gurus sons are now rich, while his nephews are poor. is it a good example? be honest

@Spence
Thanks for all the information.
Do you remember which section of Sar Bachan talks about the gurus in the first and second region? I would love to re-read it.
“As for question 5, Maharaji didn’t appoint Gurindar to be a perfect Master.”
This is probably true. Why do you think Maharaj Charan Singh bowed to GSD at the Dastarbandi (after GSD was “appointed” as the new Master)? I was just curious what could be an explanation for that act.
Do you think GSD is an Astral or Causal plane Master? Even though Astral and Causal plane Masters are not Perfect but compared to the ordinary humans on the physical plane they are not something to be scoffed at. That can explain, at least from Sant Mat perspective, some “inner experience” experienced by initiates and some bilocation reports related to GSD. Also, can explain some flaws like interest in Materialistic side of things. Perhaps, he was “appointed” to cater to the desires of the Indian Sangat which is, I think and I stand to be corrected, predominantly materialistic – marriages, jobs, better life, etc. Astral/Causal plane Masters are best suited for fulfilling those desires because PLMs are mostly concerned with winding up of the Karma and taking the soul to Sach Khand. They don’t want initiates to have a cushy life because then they would not be interested in going back (Just some thoughts based on my limited understanding). Thoughts?
Do you know or have any information about the Sound experienced by initiates of Maharaj Charan Singh and GSD? (I presume it is not discussed much because of the ordinance related to not sharing inner experience). I was just curious if some initiates hear the pulling sounds (bell or higher that pulls the sound to the Astral self or do most of the initiates merely hear some physical sounds (such as blood flowing in the arteries, etc.) or tinnitus and mistake it for Shabad?

For those seeking advice on how to deal with news that their Master may not Perfect but believe that Path may be perfect even though their Master is not, from Sant Mat Perspective, keep on seeking the Ultimate Truth and a PLM will find you (Provided you are fed up with the cycle of birth and death and seek the True Home).
Based on Sant Mat, when a chela (disciple) is ready, Guru Appears (NOTE – It doesn’t say you will find a Guru)

@ AJ
I may end up chuckling at what I write, the run-around-the-mulberry-bush results of some practicing and academic detours into traditional Sant Mat, Shaktic Philosophy and half a dozen other Indian esoteric mystical schools that center around the eye center and the regions beyond looks something like this from my window that has views to the London Eye and possibly, a Sach Khand that is found in the reality of a star studded sky, a shot of whiskey and Bob Marley playing ” One Love ” …
( 1 ) … 99.9 percent of Gurus are subpar riddhi-siddhi magicians. Their ” magical ” prowess gradually declines or suddenly disappears with overusage or misuse. But, even the first cut of magic-wand delivery is enough to keep the Guru in an exalted popularity and the mere peddling of past ” miracles ” can keep a sect afloat for decades. The Gurus of archetypal Indian cults are energy vampires that attract their disciples based on the promise of an afterlife. This is the last place to look for a PLM, you’ll find fakes in this category.
Then there are the intellectual masturbators of modern mysticism – the English speaking bearded Babas who entertain us with their witty takes on how to deal with stress. These guys are harmless, I like them. I think of them as spiritual masseuses. They dress traditional and discuss philosophy with a high quotient of spiritual hipness.
…… 0.1 percent is a rarity. He will belong to an unorganised commune ( if at all ) and the relationship with such a being will not be that of ” Gurubhakti ” but one that will transport you to the threshold of your higher self and from there on you’ll be guided till you reach the high-tea table of Sat Pursh … who, in all his wondrous splendor, will be waiting for you and will offer you cucumber sandwiches and English breakfast tea. He’ll walk you around Sat Lok, you can marvel at the twin peaks ( the inaccessible Agam and invisible Alakh ) and you can have a glass of wine as you soak in the ocean of eternal love, also known as Anami. An imperfect PLM ( ! ) cannot take you beyond Bhanwar Gupha. You may be lucky to get past Maha Sunn ( Bhav Saagar ) where you’ll experience the gradual ascension of the sound current, but the whirling darkness of the tunnel of Bhanwar Gupha will test your PLM. You’ll most likely get there and realize you need another travel companion. This region can create mental imbalances if not navigated properly. That’s why the practice of Surat Shabd Yog requires access to the teacher.
( 2 ) Reminds me of the three utterly interesting and utterly unrealised women who once had a conversation with Baba Sawan. This is folklore that is rooted in the ethics of service as a means to salvation. These three ladies were tirelessly serving the Great Master and he was so happy with them that he told them that sometimes serving a PLM is enough to go to Sach Khand. His ” MAUJ ” is everything. You can reach nowhere in your meditation, and yet, if He is happy with you, He’ll take you Home. This is also true of other life forms who accidentally come in contact with a PLM. A Param Sant can look at a buffalo and it can die the next day and be free from the wheel of Chaurasi. Like Charan’s famous cockroach, who got crushed under his foot and went straight to Sach Khand. PLMs are perfect in every way and are beyond the temptations of the mind. Kaal is just a helpless butler.
( 3 ) My Aunt still insists that Charan helped her with her bags when she almost missed a train. I’m convinced it was a projection. It’s been scientifically proven that penal gland seizures can be induced by tapasyas. Meditation is just one form of tapasya. There are several fables of PLMs creating multiple doppelgangers of themselves and in some cases, they don’t leave. It can sound eerie but the PLM is capable of showing up anytime, anywhere. They travel inter-region and at times are present in different places at one given time.
( 4 ) If a PLM does appoint another PLM then he has to be perfect. Julian Johnson would agree.
( 5 ) I think that would be the anomaly, unless the family member has been a close disciple and has shown signs of spiritual enlightenment from a very young age. The Sikh and Vedic texts point to exceptionally gifted children who were either the sons of the Gurus or their most accomplished disciples. The aspect of close physical proximity ( Jagat-Sawan, Kirpal-Sawan ) is all too necessary when it comes to lineage. The result of absolute enlightenment can also be absolute vice, but not in Sant Mat traditions. A Sant Mat PLM is the perfect, all merciful Param Sant. Baba Sawan bled on his bed for days as he took on the karmas of his Sangat in the partition of 1947.
( 6 ) The PLM will come to you. The PLM will be bereft of all worldly adornments. The PLM will have the elixir of Anhad Shabd running through his veins. The PLM will not call himself a PLM, he will speak to you in riddles.
( 7 ) We emote from the heart and are warned from the gut. The subconscious mind is always guiding emotion and intuition. If you have reached a stage in your meditation where consciousness has revealed itself, you will be able to distinguish between karma and free will. On a more tangible plane, the answers will lie in an increased level of clarity, a fierce fearlessness of being and a strong conviction to live from the core of your truths. In Sant Mat terms, you will revel in your meditation with no material or physical desires.
Any guesses who the three women were, AJ ?
( They were Bibi Ralli, Bibi Lajjo, Bibi Rakkhi. I call them Charlie’s Angles. )

Spence wrote:
“As for question 5, Maharaji didn’t appoint Gurindar to be a perfect Master.
He appointed him to continue the work as the organization’s head, to initiate people into the teachings of the Spirit.”
–Same with Charan by Jagat and Jagat by Sawan and Sawan by Seth Shiv. And who appointed Seth Shiv? He appears to be a heretic associated with a couple of Radha Soami sects who went off to do his own thing in the hyena infested ravines near Beas with his long hair tied to an overhead bar so he wouldn’t fall asleep while meditating. Who is the authority for his perfection? A couple of toe sucking bibis? They did suck his toes you know. Or so they say.
Who knows who is a perfect master or not? How can that even be determined? How do we know who knows? How would they know anyway? If they say they know, do they?
They say meditate and find out. Well, maybe you get to the end of life and you still don’t know despite decades of meditation. What then? Next life maybe? How do we know there is a next life? What is it exactly that has a next life? What is its shape, form, attribute and color? Does it remember how to make pancakes and tie its shoes? What is it that makes it what it is? Where is it before it gets a next life? How do we know that place is real? Does it wait in a sort of celestial couch while its new seed form is incubating? Where is that place of incubation? How does it even exist in the first place? Why? How do we know Sat Purush is God? Maybe it is something else? Maybe there is a sixth region Sat Purush doesn’t know about because Kal tricked him and it turns out Kal is the real deal?
Of course this is silly. Obviously the master is a perfect master. It’s plain as day. They said he was perfect and there are thousands of people sitting there worshiping what they have been told is perfect. They all must know. They can’t all be delusional. Some of them must know even though we don’t know if they do. It’s all perfectly reasonable and rational. It’s a science. Right?

@BB
Thanks for an elaborate response.
“99.9 percent of Gurus are subpar riddhi-siddhi magicians”
The 99.9 % of these Gurus are bringing the path to disrepute. People are now questioning the path itself because of these Masters probably fulfilling the prediction of Anurag Sagar that for every PLM there are a X number of non-Perfect Masters deluding the seekers.
“If a PLM does appoint another PLM then he has to be perfect.”
There are a couple of ifs in this situation here – If the appointing Master is a PLM and if the appointed Master is a PLM. Perhaps, PLMs don’t even appoint PLMs and appoint non-Perfect Masters to help with the given needs of a location (materialistic or otherwise)
“It can sound eerie but the PLM is capable of showing up anytime, anywhere.”
I would agree if a Master is a PLM he is capable of showing up anytime, anywhere. But is that aspect restricted to PLMs or can it apply to lower Masters (Astral/Causal)?. If so, then bilocation cannot be used a proof that the Master is a PLM. There are many Sant Mat branches/lineages that use this “fact” to claim their Master is a PLM. There are also stories of a Master’s face changing to the previous Master’s face and that is also used to validate the perfectness of a successor. I wonder if this is also an acquired power at Astral/Causal plane and anyone who has reached that plane can exhibit this power. (There are stories of Sathya Sai showing Guru Nanak in the Palm of his Hand and thus claiming that he was the God who had sent Guru Nanak to serve the people)
“They were Bibi Ralli, Bibi Lajjo, Bibi Rakkhi. I call them Charlie’s Angles.”
There are stories that one of those Bibis (Bibi Rakkhi I believe) has taken re-birth in America. Obviously, this stands to be validated.

@spence
It would be great if you can please respond to my questions in a previous post 🙂

“There are also stories of a Master’s face changing to the previous Master’s face and that is also used to validate the perfectness of a successor.”
“There are stories of Sathya Sai showing Guru Nanak in the Palm of his Hand ”
These “proofs” are ridiculous and I feel shame that I was ever so naive to consider the game of gurus as something serious or worth thinking about. As I said to someone else, it’s appeals to authority upon appeals to authority.
On this blog 1000 people have asked the same questions, but nobody, including Manjit who is the smartest man alive, can tell how all the contradictory miracles are all simultaneously true. If we use the signs you have accepted as sufficient for proof, then convicted rapists, dogs, printed pictures, and statues are all the highest level of god. All those things have been seen in someones hand, in a visionary dream, during meditation or in the sky.
I worship dog picture now.

@Jesse
🙂
do you worship the dog picture with full “faith”? 🙂

My personal belief is that common sense should be an important tool in the “spiritual” path.
If a Guru says jump into a well, one should ask the Guru to demonstrate it first and then offer to follow the Guru.

Hi Bombay B re Sept 20th
Good mix of the practical and the so-called ‘esoteric’. I liked what you wrote in point 7 – ‘If you have reached a stage in your meditation where consciousness has revealed itself, you will be able to distinguish between karma and free will’. A pointer to the truth of things in my view. I cannot recall one part of a Sant Mat Book or Guru conversation that said it like this. Expansion/unfolding of consciousness results in an increasingly smaller amount of this so called ‘I’ upon which karma and free-will act. Clarity of thought would indicate that ‘karma’ and belief in karma acts within the mental sphere, hence the more this aspect of our ‘being’ is sorted, the less effect so-called karma will have and it can no longer be used as an excuse for behaviour. That’s how I see it.
Mind you having your toe sucked by an old Bibi, at the right angle, resulting in a seizure of the penal gland sounds a bit like nasty karma to me – or is it just a weird kundalini effect? 🙂

Who knows who is a perfect master or not? How can that even be determined? How do we know who knows? How would they know anyway? If they say they know, do they?
They say meditate and find out…

Everyone wants an assurance he isn’t being scammed by a
mystic. Gimme evidence, testimonies, awards, a “moon rock”
from a mystic’s inner journey should cap it.
But even then doubt would creep it. What if the testimonies
and awards are forgeries, the moon rock from a curio shop?
What if there are reports the Guru is a shady character?
The scandal sheets of the times floated stories of hanky
panky between Great Master and his three bibi’s. Gurinder
is clearly a money-grubbing, heartless, unfit Guru in the
minds of many. You’ll have to weigh all that too.
The only assurances of mystic claims will be your research,
the evidenciary markers you follow and examine, what you
confirm experientially, stuff you actully see and hear
inside that is its own proof, Again on your own.
If that journey seems fraught with danger, the promises
hollow, hints of bad behavior likely, or your intuition
tells you run away fast, do it.
Hopefully though you won’t want to get lost in endless
doubt and debate, conflate every press report with the
truth, wage jihads challenging the authenticity of all
mystic experience, and conclude the effort to find the
truth inside is a lost cause..

Who knows who is a perfect master or not? How can that even be determined? How do we know who knows? How would they know anyway? If they say they know, do they?
They say meditate and find out…

Everyone wants an assurance he isn’t being scammed by a
mystic. Gimme evidence, testimonies, awards, a “moon rock”
from a mystic’s inner journey should cap it.
But even then doubt would creep it. What if the testimonies
and awards are forgeries, the moon rock from a curio shop?
What if there are reports the Guru is a shady character?
The scandal sheets of the times floated stories of hanky
panky between Great Master and his three bibi’s. Gurinder
is clearly a money-grubbing, heartless, unfit Guru in the
minds of many. You’ll have to weigh all that too.
The only assurances of mystic claims will be your research,
the evidenciary markers you follow and examine, what you
confirm experientially, stuff you actully see and hear
inside that is its own proof, Again on your own.
If that journey seems fraught with danger, the promises
hollow, hints of bad behavior likely, or your intuition
tells you run away fast, do it.
Hopefully though you won’t want to get lost in endless
doubt and debate, conflate every press report with the
truth, wage jihads challenging the authenticity of all
mystic experience, and conclude the effort to find the
truth inside is a lost cause..

@Dungeness
What happens if you try sincerely for many years and you are unable to find the evidenciary markers with your research. You don’t see or hear inside (or hear what can be called physical sounds and mistake it for shabad and thus make no real progress)? When should one give up or consider a different Master because the current Master is not delivering? How long should be given for this experiment before concluding it as a failure? What should be the next step? Look for another Master?

What happens if your inner experiences aren’t worth shit? Why is inner experience valuable especially considering the fact that all so-called mystics are competitive and make exclusive claims about the efficacy of their sounds and visions?

Re: “There are also stories of a Master’s face changing to the previous Master’s face and that is also used to validate the perfectness of a successor.”
I’m a former Thakar initiate. During a Satsang he gave in Oregon, I saw his face morph into Kirpal’s. I shared this incident with a friend sitting next to me, who told me this was a very special thing to see and to keep quiet about it (lest my ego expand).
Another person on this blog named Arjuna shared a similar face-morph story with re: to Gurindar.
Plus, I’ve heard other people tell similar stories about their gurus. [I come from a culture where practically every family has a guru.]
Does this mean A) all of these gurus are PLMs OR B) these kinds of vision are self-generated through faith and other factors?
My hunch (can’t say for sure) is B. That doesn’t take away from the subjective value, meaning or power of these experiences, just attributes a different source to them.
A side note re: Thakar’s supposed PLM status:
Thakar reportedly sexually misbehaved in the 80s (the topic was discussed on this blog by David Lane and others) so he definitely had human flaws. Before he passed away, he appointed Sant Baljit Singh as successor. Sant Baljit Singh, in turn, appointed a female co-Master named Ma who later turned on him and started to lure his initiates away. Mass confusion ensued. This further put doubt on Thakar’s PLMs claims. Shouldn’t he have seen all that coming? All this PLM business is distraction, more trouble than its worth IMO….

What happens if you try sincerely for many years and you are unable to find the evidenciary markers with your research. You don’t see or hear inside (or hear what can be called physical sounds and mistake it for shabad and thus make no real progress)? When should one give up or consider a different Master because the current Master is not delivering? How long should be given for this experiment before concluding it as a failure? What should be the next step? Look for another Master?
What happens if your inner experiences aren’t worth shit?

I can’t presume to know the answers to any of these legitimate
questions. Personally, I’d go straight to Master for answers – inside
or outside. I’d ask the Master, with all due respect to explain what
the hell is going on and you’d very much appreciate clear,
non-dogmatic responses. Any legit guru will have a sense of
humor. What is there to lose?

Hi AJ
Sorry for the delay. I’m at a company thing and will be able to get to your questions tomorrow evening…
Except the first… Sat Bachan chapter 1 section 3….’All teachers started towards the real abode but not all of them reached it..
They naturally looked upon those stages as the source of the Soul and the lord of those regions as the lord…. This they taught this to their disciples..
‘

@ Spence
Thanks! Really appreciate it!

@ Mr Curious
I am aware of STS, SBS and Maa (I live in California and there are many STS initiates here)
I know somebody, here in California, who say the same phenomenon in Lighthouse Center Oregon (In Brian Hines Backyard 🙂
Did this happen in 2003 on Sant Kirpal Singh’s birthday? If it was, then it is very interesting because this person also was there and he saw the morphing on the same day. Now, that would rule out self-generated morphing. It is probably more of a real phenomenon in that case. It is a different issue if it reflects on the Perfectness of the Master. (Perhaps a power acquired at the Astral/Causal level)
Aside from the possibility that STS and SBS both are not PLMs, there is a possibility that STS was a PLM and SBS was not (despite all the crying that STS did while declaring SBS as the next PLM – at least that is what most of the STS initiates here in California feel). It is possible that PLMs deliberately appoint non-PLMs for whatever reason (the successors requesting the PLM to appoint him or based on the needs of the followers – They already have the radiant form of the PLM after all, if there is such a thing, and the successor can take care of their material/lower plane needs. I am just speculating here)
Coincidentally, an STS Initiation Rep was calling me while I was typing this up.

@ Dungeness
Thank you for your response.
It should work in some cases but probably wouldn’t in the case where the Master is not physically (has too many followers – in the million+ – and has no time to meet individuals) or internally accessible.

“Any legit guru will have a sense of humor.”
Who comes up with these rules?
Historically it’s certainly not the case. A lot of supposed gurus were completely abusive dicks. Marpa beat his wife and Milarepa and he’s considered one of the greatest saints of Tibet.

@AJ
I don’t recall the exact date, but it’s possible. I went to the STS retreat in Oregon every summer from 1996 to 2005. [After he passed, I went to 1 SBS retreat.]
If the experience did occur on Kirpal Singh’s birthday, that would make sense. It could very well be we were expecting or hoping for a SKS manifestation, and our mind projected what we desired.
Again, I don’t discount the possibility of a supernatural / divine occurrence, but it’s important to explore possible natural explanations first.
btw, I searched the web for face-morphing stories in general and there is quite a rich body of content (no research, primarily personal stories). The part of our brain that recognizes faces (and assigns faces to animate and inanimate objects alike – the moon, rock formations, bread, etc.) is a major part of our evolutionary and spiritual history and should definitely be explored more. 🙂

The movie, Kumare, is a very thought-provoking and funny exploration of the Guru phenomenon. Definitely worth a watch…
http://kumaremovie.com/
An Indian man impersonates a Guru and wins a following. Even though he’s not a legitimate Guru, several of his followers have experiences and enjoy benefits. After he tells them the truth, which he does with difficulty because at this point he’s started to care about them, many still can’t accept that he’s not a legit Guru.
if you watch it, let us know what you think!
Interesting stuff…

@ Mr. Curious
It was actually Sant Kirpal Singh’s death anniversary 21st August 2003. It was the first time STS celebrated it outside India.
I don’t know about brain projecting what we desire. I seem to have failed to project Baba Sawan Singh despite desperately trying for a decade (never experience bi location, face morphing or any other related phenomenon). Perhaps, my brain is wired differently or perhaps I was not in touch with the radiance of a living Baba Sawan Singh. Jury is still out on that one.
STS ministry was an interesting case and a unique one –
1. There were sexual allegations (His Organization dismissed these allegations as frivolous and more of a case of mentally unstable women alleging. It was supposed to be an attack of the negative power – Universal Mind or Kal – trying to sway souls away from the PLM. Perhaps this is what is happening to GSD???). But I also happened to speak with a couple of his initiates who had “sexual” encounter with him. One was kissed on the lips by him. She claims that the kiss felt asexual and it actually fixed her sexual desire. Another had a similar encounter and also claimed that STS had helped her with her sexual karma. Interesting stuff.
2. He recruited an Army of Initiation Representatives who initiated massive numbers (close to 2 million) without any waiting period for initiation. Meat and other traditional requirements were waived.
3. STS bind folded infants. It was claimed that infants lose their connections to the inner light as they open their eyes and get exposed to external light. This was controversial and was stopped after a huge public outcry.
4. STS predicted change of consciousness would happen/Golden Age will arrive soon (2 or 3 times). STS had raised an army of meditation children (children left at his Ashram by followers or people who could not afford to raise them and were taught to meditate for longs hours – 10+) that would help usher in the Golden Age. SBS was expected to usher in this change of consciousness. Nothing has happened so far.
5. MOST INTERESTING was the case of possession. STS ministry was known for his effort to treat entity cases – disembodied souls possessing a human body – by initiating them. Apparently, the person concerned had done Reiki/Psychic healing and thus invited the disembodied soul to possess the person’s body. The behavior of the initiated person would change when the entity/possessing soul got active. The person screamed and howled and tried to attack STS. Oral/External recitation of Simran was done to help these possessed people. Sound was recommended. I know of an initiate who claims that he had the entity problem and was cured by listening to the sound for a prolong period.
6. Another interesting aspect was the very strong emphasis on sound current. STS had claimed that in this dark age, Simran was rendered ineffective and best meditation was listening to the sound (100% sound meditation or bhajan was recommended. Prior to that he changed the ratio of Simran to sound to 1:2 – 1 hr Simran and 2 hour Sound – Sant Kirpal Singh used to emphasis 50% Simran and 50% sound. Baba sawan Singh had recommended 2 hrs of Simran and 30 minutes of bhajan). The initiates would mostly plug their right ear (most keeping the left ear unplugged in the fear that they might hear the left side sound of Kal) and try to listen to the sound from the right side only. I wonder if anyone progressed beyond the tinnitus induced by this practice or the physical sounds heard by plugging the ear. It would be nice to know if any STS initiates heard the pulling sounds (Bell and higher)
7. Negative Power was emphasized a lot. There was a constant war between Negative Power (Kal) and STS. Some reports of STS’ blood spilled in these battles.
8. Someone told me that a busload of advanced Beas initiates were sent to STS for further initiation in the Chandigarh area. In some cases, Maharaj Charan Singh told people to go get initiated by Sant Thakar Singh.
Did I miss something?

Today I attended baba ji’s satsang. There was no effect of negative news. Number of people was much more than last time.
Moony

Dear Loved Initiated
Please keep in mind
that we are placed on this planet
to find out about our
own character
more important than the karma rather automatic issue
As for Gurinder
We see HIM smiling in all Splendor 24/7 in our inside
together with HIS SONG
and we are initiated half a century ago
Strange experience to be exclusively banned/deleted constantly
in spite of Br’s first amendment black
7.77
( see archive.org)

Glad that the discussion has moved into a broader spectrum. Interestingly, the mantra remains the same across all these branches. I’d say Sant Mat per se is in shambles. All of it. Ishwar seems like the last sane custodian of the final vestiges and I like the fact that he’s personally meeting with his initiates, there is access to the teacher.
@ AJ : I was only speaking from my understanding of what Sant Mat is, I don’t believe in any of it. It’s important to keep pointing at the origins of Sant Mat ( Faqir Chand, Shiv Dayal ) and RSSB titles ( Path Of The Masters etc. ) as many believers seem to have a compromised idea of what a PLM should be. The new normal is a departure from the days of Charan. I’m uncertain whether Charan was perfect, but there was an air of contentment around.
@ Tim : Exactly. If there cannot be any demonstrable evidence of initiates / Satsangis traversing the higher planes, the resulting higher consciousness should at least be tangible in how they respond to life. Ascension into the astral should have a great impact on behaviour, yes. It’s something on the lines of starting a health regime – you may eat and exercise in secrecy, but the physical body will gradually show visible results. I have met all kinds of Satsangis and all of them were who they were by virtue or vice of their own character. It would be impossible to progress into a deeper understanding on one hand and remain completely unchanged on the other. Impossible.
@ AJ : An asexual kiss that fixes sexual desire ? That’s quite something, and quite gross. The rest of it is bat shit crazy, thank you for sharing. Makes me wonder where do human beings really begin to lose it ?
What’s the point of inflection ?
On another note, a few have pointed at Sawan’s toe sucking fetish. It’s widely believed that a PLM could decrease or even wipeout karmic load in the strangest of ways. ” Veda Paar ” or the concept of overcoming is the underlying theme not just in Sant Mat, but also in Sikhism and other religions. It’s a snare for the weak.

Hi AJ
Reviewed your questions again this morning. And the same answer keeps conning to me. And that is that to answer these questions about the status of Baba Ji would be my conjecture. It wouldn’t be fact.
The facts externally are as presented. Embezzlement. Fraud.
The facts internally depend upon each of us individually.
Maharaji told a women not to call him God, that this was self – deception until she had seen it for herself within.
But here you see people want to use the teachings to make that determination, or to say Maharaji could not have been wrong. These are all justifications, and in fact self deceptions. They cannot substitute for fact, either external or internal.
My own experience is both. I am witness to the reality (which could be subjective, of the power of Shabd, the regions and even Baba Ji’s power). But I am also now aware of the facts reported and in court documents of Baba Ji’s actions in dealing with other people’s money, and influence in placing close relatives, wife included, into leadership roles of interlinked companies forming a web of governance and conflict of interest issues.
Beyond that each individual must decide for themselves what to believe, and that should be based upon whatever facts, internally or externally, or both, they obtain.
Conjecture just leads to endless and fruitless debate and can never substitute for fact and experience.
Can we, at this level, be manipulated into believing things that aren’t true?
Yes. Therefore think and decide. But try to use fact and experience over theory, emotion and opinion. Better chance of avoiding delusion.

Hi AJ,
Thanks for reminding me of those aspects of STS’ ministry.
1. Re: asexual kisses, interesting stuff. I’ve never heard these accounts. I’m more familiar with the public media exposes that paint these events in a much different light. Several women on record complained of very sexual advances. In 1984, STS sent an apology letter to the Sangat to address the rumors and explain that the “negative power had been successful in attacking his lower self” or some such. I have seen the letter first hand.
2. Re: giving widespread initiations with no waiting period and waived requirements, this is very true. Had there been any requirements, I would never have done it. I took initiation at the suggestion of a friend purely out of curiosity since STS was giving initiation only 5 minutes away from my home in the NY/NJ area. The initiation experience did indeed produce light, sound and bliss. So strong, in fact, that I mistakenly drove 30 minutes in the wrong direction after Satsang.
3. Re: blindfolding infants, this sounds like a VERY bad idea. Glad they reversed track on this.
4. Re: the meditation children and the predicted big world change, yes we are still waiting, lol. I did, however, once own a CD of the meditation children singing. It was a very uplifting, meditative CD to listen to. [STS said one could listen to that and get a similar effect as meditation.]
5. Re: entity cases, I’ve seen these first hand. In the 90’s, the “possessed” used to sit in the back of the Satsang hall and go crazy, yell and curse (like Turrets sufferers) every time STS took the stage. A very strange experience. Tellingly, it seems to only be the strong believers who get possessed by such entities.
6. Re: STS’ emphasis on sound, very true. Re: my own experiences, here’s what I’ve experienced / seen first hand (during intensive meditation first 6 months after initiation). Bliss, multi-colored clouds of lights, being able to “watch” thoughts, stars, the moon, pulling up sounds (high pitched), brief moments of sensory current inversion, seeing a reflection of my face as if in a dark pool of water. Outside of meditation, the face morph experience as well as feeling like any question I have in my heart is addressed during satsang. Others with diff masters report similar experiences.
7. Yes, Kal was emphasized a lot. Of course, any thought you had that was against the path was from Kal. Typical cult stuff.
8. Re: Charan telling advanced initiates to get initiated by STS, this is news to me. We know 777 doesn’t agree per his comment below!
—
“””.Maharaj Charan Singh told people to go get initiated by Sant Thakar Singh. “””
A unbelievable Blatant Lie
All Saints outside RSSB are imposters
777
—
777’s comment further reminds me that blind belief and this Sant Mat stuff (at least the Guru parts) is not something I want in my life.
EVERY religious person on this planet, like 777, thinks *they* have the right path and every one else is wrong. This is leading to a very dangerous world.
btw, I still have friends, many of them highly educated (scientists, etc.), who hold onto their Guru myths. Interesting how this cult stuff can still attract highly educated classes both in the US and India. To me, that just shows there’s something humans need that we’re not getting out of capitalism / society these days. It’s not proof of the Guru’s legitimacy.
Thanks again AJ. Interesting convo.
On a side note, please check out the documentary “Kumare” if you haven’t already. It speaks to the Guru phenomenon very well (in a funny, thought provoking way). People with “fake” gurus can indeed have very real experiences, it seems…

Quote Mr Curious : The initiation experience did indeed produce light, sound and bliss. So strong, in fact, that I mistakenly drove 30 minutes in the wrong direction after Satsang.
Wow, really? I mean, this is a first-person “this happened to me” statement, as opposed to a third-person “so and so told me about such and such having this kind of an experience”.
And you seem to be a regular sort of person, not someone steeped in years and decades of “practice” (that is, not someone who may, in the course of their years and decades of practice, have inadvertently schooled their mind to conjure up some such experience).
Cool!
Anyone come across any explanation, ever — any rational explanation — for something like this?

Hi Appreciative,
Yes, I’d like to think I’m a regular sort of person. 😉
I had zero Sant Mat conditioning prior to initiation, nor was I expecting anything to happen (consciously anyway). I just wanted an interesting story to share.
After my initiation experience, I decided to spend 1 month in intensive meditation at the Oregon retreat center. [I never really meditated before.]
The blissful experience could have something to do with the pineal gland (stimulated by meditation)? Not sure. The below book (written by a doctor of psychiatry) touches on the origin of mystical / near death experiences…
https://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolutionary-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278

@ 777 : …… in just the same way an initiate can demonstrate to another that Sach Khand exists.
@ Mr. Curious : ” any question I have in my heart is addressed during satsang ” … that’s exactly what a family member experienced. What if it’s coincidence, being at the right place at the right time with the right questions.
Kumare was stellar. A must watch for anyone who wants to sign up with a Guru.
We seek out our own experiences, voluntary projections are experiences that we like to believe are involuntary. We love the Guru we create and keep tweaking the internal monologue to suit our own narratives.

@BB: It happened multiple times, but it definitely could have been coincidence.
Some things I experienced (before and after Sant Mat) are easier to explain than others.
At the end of the day, I definitely believe people are able to have elevated / mystical / profound experiences (and that these have real value & meaning for the individual). I just think these are generated by the self and have a neurochemical basis. Perhaps the Sant Mat meditation is one method of many that can be used to release our own natural reserves of psychedelic juices?
In other words, I don’t attribute these experiences to the special power of a particular Guru any more. Many people, with or without a Sant Mat Guru, have had similar experiences. But I was grateful to learn a method that can help me still the mind when needed.

All questions in your heart are addressed? I’m sure none of the questions were really broad and ambiguous, and you totally weren’t reading into the vague mystic talks much either.
“Wow, I was wondering what I should do about my loved ones dying of cancer, and like baba said life is hard and shit sucks sometimes, but with perseverance we can overcome all the tough shit and like problems don’t last forever! Was it a miracle?”
Next time, try thinking of something that requires even a modicum of specificity and let us know how well your question gets answered.

@ Curious
My STS initiate friends tell me that his initiations and subsequent meditations indicated major “juice”. Not sure, if this qualifies him as a PLM but there were certainly more “mystical” experiences in his group and excitement.
Asexual kisses – happened to a STS initiation rep that I know. Her take is very positive about it. Regarding other sexual charges, A Berkeley Ph.D that I know was very convinced that there was a lot of rumor mongering involved and it helped pique the curiosity of the seekers and thus resulted in more initiations. I have also read the letter written to some German folks in 1984. Interesting stuff, if it is true, as to how Kal operates.
777 mentions
“”””.Maharaj Charan Singh told people to go get initiated by Sant Thakar Singh. “””
A unbelievable Blatant Lie
All Saints outside RSSB are imposters
777”
This is what the STS initiates say about RSSB. In fact, the entire branch of Sant Kirpal Singh considers RSSB imposters. Of course, each group considers their Master to be a PLM and rest to be frauds. Sounds cultish? Seems to ride on the notion that there is only 1 PLM on this planet and that happens to be their guru.
If Sant Mat is genuine, is it possible that there are more than 1 PLM? And maybe, there are many Masters of different levels?
BTW, this was told by a reliable source who witnessed this event.
@ Curious, I agree with your take on it.
777 also mentioned (I think before his post got deleted) that
Maharaj Charan Singh refused initiation to woman for eating eggs. The woman later disclosed that she was eating pastries.
Is this the litmus test for considering anyone a PLM? Mind reading? There are thousands of mind readers/jytoshis in India who can do the same and they just charge Rs 500 or so and we don’t bow to them and call them Gurus. Point is that this seems to be a “science” which can be acquired. I am sure anyone with practice and some advancement/astral master/causal master can also do it.
Based on my experience with the mind readers, I can safely say that Mind reading is not a necessary and sufficient condition for a person to be considered a PLM.
@ spence Thanks for your take on the issue.

@Jesse
That’d be tough, because he passed away over a decade ago!
It’s all good, we have Google. Most of my specific questions get answered there these days (through the power of long-tail search terms).

Mr Curious, I thought I experienced a baba miracle once myself. Twice actually. But in retrospect one was just a coincidence and the other me being hopeful, superstitious and seeing things that I wanted to see.
I don’t hold it against anyone for having and believing in those experiences but it’s a bit sad that I was able to lie to myself.
Then again, there’s something wonderful about being in a cult too. It’s fun to have those delusions and get wrapped up in the emotions. Like meeting hot chicks and “falling in love” when you’re a teenager. It’s a mirage but it doesn’t cause problems until later.

@BB
“On another note, a few have pointed at Sawan’s toe sucking fetish. It’s widely believed that a PLM could decrease or even wipeout karmic load in the strangest of ways. ” Veda Paar ” or the concept of overcoming is the underlying theme not just in Sant Mat, but also in Sikhism and other religions. It’s a snare for the weak.”
My PLM would have to decrease/wipeout Karma from a distance :). I would rather go through the karma than indulge in some toe sucking. Ew! You grossed me out. Now, this horrendous image is going to bother me in meditations 🙂

No it was not about SawanSingh but about Soamiji’s story.

AJ, RSSB is small and irrelevant in USA. It owns a negligible amount of property and assets and the threat level is minor so it’s doubtful he’d require protection other than what the org hires privately.
There have been assassination attempts on GSD in Europe though so maybe I’m wrong, but I think he’d have to get a lot more famous before he was given government protection.

Regarding how to deal with the news, I wonder if the following model (related to emotional healing) will help:
STAGE 1. Denial
This is the stage when the person thinks, “No, this just cannot be true.”
We’ve probably all said this when faced with terrible news. Denying something is true is a common way of initially dealing with a painful situation.
At first, one may feel totally unable to accept the bad news. In this stage of
denial we might isolate ourselves in an attempt to defend against the reality
of the situation.
Although denial is a normal stage of grief, if we remain in this stage too long
we will be unable to make necessary and important decisions.
STAGE 2. Anger
The next stage is anger. This is the stage in which the person acknowledges
the reality of the situation, but is filled with rage at the loss and thinks,
“This isn’t fair; why did this have to happen to me?” When a loved
one dies, we may be angry at whatever took our loved one’s life, angry at
God, even angry at the loved one for leaving us. Although feeling angry is
normal, we may displace our anger. This means taking anger out on other
people or things. It may feel as if everything and everyone is irritating us
and so we lash out and are completely unaware that this is a manifestation
of our grief. Although displaced anger may serve to distance us from the
pain and reality of the loss, it can create problems in personal relationships,
especially if the people around us do not understand that we are grieving. It
can even lead to legal problems if we physically act out our anger on people
or property.
STAGE 3. Bargaining
The next stage is bargaining. This is a stage that people sometimes go
through when they are facing the loss of their own life or the life of a loved
one. They think “There must be something I can do to change this.”
We may try to make bargains with God by promising to do something difficult
(often something that we are unlikely to be able to do), in exchange for
removing the threat of loss. For example, we might pray, “God, if you take
this pain away, I promise to never even think about using drugs again.”
When feeling powerless, bargaining may provide us with the illusion that we
are actually doing something to help, but as with the previous stage, if we
remain in this stage too long, it can prevent us from coping realistically with
the situation and taking appropriate action.
STAGE 4. Depression
The next stage is depression. In this stage, the reality of the loss has really
“sunk in.” Denial, anger, and bargaining give way to despair, and we think
“I cannot handle this pain and I’m helpless to do anything about it.”
We may attempt to withdraw from the world and to “shut down our circuits”
in an attempt to defend ourselves against the pain of the loss. Although profound sadness in response to loss is normal, it is important not to get stuck
in this stage. As you all know, depression can quickly lead to drug use and
other unhealthy behavior.
STAGE 5. Acceptance
The next stage is acceptance. This is the stage where we move beyond
defending ourselves from the pain of the loss with denial, anger, and depression, and begin to accept reality. We may think “I have experienced a
painful loss, but I can get through it.” When we are in the earlier
stages of grieving, it seems that acceptance is an unattainable goal.
However, it is important to keep in mind that acceptance is neither unattainable nor is it the ultimate goal. Acceptance is not the end of the process, but rather a necessary step that will move you beyond grief to the next stage which is hope.
STAGE 6. Hope
We have reached the final stage—hope—when we reflect upon the loss in
search of personal meaning. In this stage we may think “I am ready to
learn from this important life experience.” As we will discuss later,
finding personal meaning in a loss involves being willing to identify and face
your fears.
https://medicine.yale.edu/spiritualselfschema/training/hhrp/Margolin%20NEG%20Gr%2011_160750_284_19347_v1.pdf

Ironically, the yale site recommends Meditation as a step to deal with a problem whose genesis, in this case, is the meditation path
” Meditation – Meditation is the focusing of attention. Like prayer, meditation
can take different forms. Some people meditate on a single word
or mantra, some chant, some silently become aware of their breathing, or
focus on an object, and some simply focus on the present moment.
Meditation can be done while seated or lying down, or while engaged in
an activity that is repetitive and that limits distractions. By focusing
attention, the meditator becomes relaxed, centered, and is able to tap an
inner source of wisdom.”

Hi AJ
To facilitate transition through these stages (originally Kubler
Ross’s ‘On Death and Dying’ model adapted to life stages by Gail Sheehy in her book ‘Passages’) you start with an undeniable change that has taken place or is inevitable and out of your control.
Passage through these stages requires a flow of facts that simply must be acknowledged. The death of a relative is such an irrevocable fact.
At this point we have gossip.
And therefore transition will be dependent upon believing it.
That would be the same basis for belief as blind faith.
So we need fact.
We need to raise the standard for truth if anything is to be learned from this. That is the only compensation for the loss of a line of beloved gurus, and the full acceptance of the truth of their character. If we can say ‘I learned something. I’m stronger for the experience.’
Some external verification. The same criteria you would apply to internal experience, and amenable to the same critical evaluation.
For example, a little more evidence about the siphoned funds, perhaps that they can be traced to Singapore. Or simply the appointment of Shivindar ad the next Master, who has already been convicted of fraud at Ranbaxy, and lost his job at Fortis and Religare for siphoning funds.
You can say ‘I told you so’ then. But today, gossip cannot be the rational basis for fact. It may be true, but it is not yet fact.
And it isn’t even evidence. But it may help point investigators and journalists to seek facts in the Fortis loans.
Until then, the transition must wait.
When those facts come in, it will be the end of RSSB. It will unravel.
Because Gurindar’s fraud will become the fraud of Maharaji, Jagat, Sawan, and Jamal.
How can a perfect Saint appoint a fraud?
They can’t. If one is, the entire line was a lie.
Let’s hope some different facts come to light.
But truth doesn’t take sides, so for the time being we can only uphold the standard of fact and welcome the flow of information, however heartbreaking to read.
We don’t get to transition yet.
We are forced by the standard of truth to live in pergatory for the time being.

@Jesse
I hear ya. Much of the experience was self delusion, but some real lessons were learned as well.
Like Brian, I’m working to hold onto the good stuff I acquired on the path (meditation, sense of service, etc.) and discard the crap (like PLM claims, talk of regions, etc.).
All that said, I do believe people are capable of having legit “mystical” experiences that have value / provide insight, but I no longer think these are bestowed by religious figures or Gurus. They come from our mind (which is mysterious and mystical enough on its own, no PLM required).

Hi Mr. Curious,
I agree with “holding onto the good stuff”. As a Charan initiate initiated over 50 years ago, it took time to adjust and change my old beliefs and now I’m thankful that I am still a vegetarian, don’t drink alcohol or take mind altering drugs, live a moral life etc. Living a balanced life and being grateful is a blessing, keeps my mind and spirit happy and letting go of that ego of feeling ‘special’ is good.
Gurinder’s so called strange behaviour in changing the teachings doesn’t bother me much. I suppose many spiritual paths devolve and Gurinder keeping things light and making jokes I’ve come to accept now. One of the blessings of getting old, not taking life too seriously.

Mr Curious, I recently saw a quote of the Dalai Lama where he said that he thought it was a bad idea for westerners to convert to Buddhism because he said it’d get old and boring and they’d fall away from the faith anyway.
This to me applies to every non Christian religion for westerners. Most people aren’t religious in a deep way, so religions for the average folk serve as communities and reminders of virtues like you mentioned.
As India works to remove churches and mosques and to not-so-subtly force Hinduism on their population, so too should USA attempt to limit the activities of foreign religions. Not for religious reasons though, but to minimize the disastrous effects of cultural confusion.
Otherwise we can just take the historical route of a multicultural empire dissolving into violent chaos that nobody who mattered seemed to have predicted until it’d already started. But Yugoslav wars probably weren’t as cool as Serbia Stronk memes make it seem.

Jesse, are you Christian?
Christianity was used to defend slavery.
It’s been manipulated to defend pedophelia.
It has been the cover for fraud to this day:
How many false priests have we had?
What you are defending is just another form of exploitation.
I’d rather advocate a more universal platform of truth.
And as for spirituality, yes the spirit is a wonderful experience. Worship of the Spirit.
Christianity, in the media, is just another hate group.
Truth has nothing to do with it.
It’s corrupt.

@Jesse
Re: westerners’ general level of religiosity:
Interesting, I’ll look for that Dalai Lama quote. In my personal Sant Mat experience, it seemed the Westerners (especially Germans) bought into the dogma / religiosity the most. Indians would take quick darshan, socialize a bit over chai, then go about their way to pursue careers, find a spouse, etc. They often didn’t even meditate. The Westerners sat in closets to meditate for 12 hours, gave up sex (what!), became austere, talked regions ad nauseum, etc.
Note: My experience was here in the US. Not sure how things are in India.
But yes, asides from Sant Mat disciples, Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, evangelicals and the snake handling people, it seems most westerners espouse religion-lite (community, reminder of virtues, etc.).
Re: preventing cultural confusion in the US by limiting “foreign” religions:
I don’t think cultural confusion comes from having a healthy choice of religions. Most people just adopt the religion of their parents anyway. IMO, cultural confusion is a more a result of shifting gender roles, rapid technological advances, warring media outlets, etc.
Re: limiting foreign religions, aren’t all religions practiced in the US ultimately foreign (well, besides Mormonism and Scientology, which are homegrown)? 🙂
That said, I definitely think it should be more difficult for some to get non-profit status. Too many crazy groups out there.
As far as India goes, I think what the Nationalist government doing to limit religious expression is wrong, short-sighted, and will bite them in the ass. Don’t think it’s a good example to follow here.
Diversity has always been a strength of the US’s IMO.
Great convo, hope I interpreted what you said correctly!

Spencer, the number one slave owning country in the world today is……. INDIA!
Hindus have various methods of practicing slavery while using tricky definitions to justify it.
Sorry that you’re part of a Hindu offshoot that practices slavery more than anyone on earth.
What do you think of Israels recent declaration of being an ethnostate/theocracy? Pretty violent religion that Judaism is. Somehow nobody is doing much to stop their reign of terror.
Maybe you’re just a hypocrite?

Hi Jesse:
You wrote:
“Spencer, the number one slave owning country in the world today is……. INDIA!
Hindus have various methods of practicing slavery while using tricky definitions to justify it.”
Certainly not defending India or Hinduism, they’ve got lots of corruption, just like we do. There is a lot of human trafficking in the U.S. Not trying to say one form of evil is worse than another…
Like you are…
You wrote:
“Sorry that you’re part of a Hindu offshoot that practices slavery more than anyone on earth.”
Wow, that’s a lot of hostility coming from a closet Christian!
You wrote:
“What do you think of Israels recent declaration of being an ethnostate/theocracy? Pretty violent religion that Judaism is. Somehow nobody is doing much to stop their reign of terror.”
I’m not a zioinist. This is why my folks left Judaism for Christianity when I was 5 years old.
Only to find the exploitation of Christianity to be global…”
You wrote:
“Maybe you’re just a hypocrite?”
And maybe you’re a guy with serious anger issues.
I’m not defending anybody.
Seems like you are trying to defend Christianity, dude.
Well, plenty of hypocrites there, too, sorry to inform.
So sad.

“Wow, that’s a lot of hostility coming from a closet Christian!”
I’m not a Christian. I’ve said this many times, and unlike most people, I find lying to be difficult. It’s probably aspergers-lite or something.
I said that India owns the most slaves and India is majority Hindu. How is that hostile? Because you felt weird reading a fact that you were previously unaware of? Because you’re part of a Hindu religion and you don’t like to be associated with its bad practices? Your feelings aren’t my hostility. Don’t get mixed up here.
Just as I was correct about your guru being a conman and you had to catch up to me, so will you, and most of the human population, be forced to catch up and deal with the fact that societies need to have something in common about them to maintain themselves, and America doesn’t have that anymore. It’s usually religion that we all agree on, and it’ll likely be religion that’ll be forced on us again. Instead of fighting an uphill battle, it makes sense to go to the one that the majority is already familiar and comfortable with.
Yugoslavia wasn’t an aberration. It was the historic norm. And we see it repeating in real time all over the world as we speak. Luckily you’re older than me and won’t have to suffer through the consequences of the boomer generation’s desire to adopt anything from the outside. Diversity was not their strength, and offering religious freedom was not a sufficient remedy to stop that tragic war which has yet to completely end.
Just as India will inevitably become a Hindutva nation or break into various countries, so will most of the west revert to Christianity or disintegrate and subsequently be swept up by quasi socialist governments which will suck. Your personal negative experiences with the religion won’t change this fact, just as Israel’s horrible track record go away simply because they have a 3000 year history of defending slavery.
What I find fascinating is that I could go on and on about any other religion and nobody would say anything whatsoever. But once it’s Christianity, we get guys like you coming out of the woodwork to list all the evils of the religion as if they aren’t present in the family of your mangod and all his sycophants.
All this stuff is off topic, but in a way it’s not. These foreign religions offer easy answers to huge life questions, and it’s all presented as being something innocent, but it’s not at all. It’s extremely disruptive and negative and I suspect that many of these Indian religions and various Islamic groups are actually money laundering and colonization plots.

Jesse
You wrote
“guys like you.”
Well that says it all doesn’t it?
The whole world is a very dark place. You won’t get an argument from me about that.
And there are a few legitimate sources of good hope and well justified good will.
I’m more interested in the light, not the darkness.
And if you have some of that wealth to share, that’s a meal worth a few moments of communion with another human being.

Pretty violent religion that Judaism is
Gosh, Judaism is pretty tame as religions go… six million
Jews murdered by Christian nations in WW2. Not to speak
of the random thuggery of pogroms again by Christinans
over centuries, the systemic anti-semitism still widely seen.

“Gosh, Judaism is pretty tame as religions go… six million
Jews murdered by Christian nations in WW2.”
Dungeness, now tell me without looking it up how many European civilians of other religions were killed.
My grandmother was Jewish. Her family fled a government who at the time was mostly run by fellow Jews who ended up murdering the King and his small children and later ordering the military to murder tens of million of people of all religions, but mostly Christians. But gosh, that’s tame right? Only about 30 million dead people. Totally tame.
I’m assuming you’re a product of the American public education system because you’re repeating irrelevant propaganda that has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. Literally nothing at all. A total non sequitur. It’s like saying that if I got punched in the face it’s proof that I’m innocent of anything and everything. What an extremely weird thing to say, especially considering that I’m talking about the inevitability of conflict, not the sole evil or innocence of one group or another.
You should go to live leak and you can watch videos of Israelis and all the fun and happy tame things they do for the peace that they’re (we’re? not me maybe, but my Dad is Jewish according to Jewish law) solely capable of. Things like shooting surrendered kids in the face, then hundreds of peaceful Israeli citizens protesting outside the home of the dead kid and attacking his mother with rocks…… for peace.
But back to my point , which was that people fight about this religious stuff and it takes down entire countries frequently. The tao te ching was right about not giving people too many options to think about. Better to have one common religion instead of 20 competing guru cult religions that don’t mesh with our culture or values at all and require the adoption of foreign myths. Much of the developing world is learning and embracing this fact, and they’re on the ascent while the west is going into decline.

Hi Jesse:
You wrote:
“Better to have one common religion instead of 20 competing guru cult religions that don’t mesh with our culture or values at all and require the adoption of foreign myths”
Hmm. State imposed religion? Sounds totalitarian! That doesn’t mesh with the freedoms Americans enjoy. And that is part of our culture. The freedom to choose. Competition is a good thing, in a Democracy, even competition among ideas.
You can treat people like children if you like. That’s fine for a totalitarian regime.
But it’s not American. Not our way.
Here, people make decisions for themselves.
Are you so sure you are better at that than others? So good you can impose your personal beliefs upon a whole nation?
Ah, there’s humility for you!

@ Spence : This isn’t about multiculturalism or faith options, it is about the dangers of believing in cult philosophies that breed specialness but end up in emotional erosion. Let’s say you hadn’t gone down the RS boulevard and had become a practicing Sikh instead. What revelations can you expect ? That Guru Gobind Singh’s eagle was a crow in disguise ? That Guru Arjan Dev got the Adi Granth written by his disciple while he languorously drank buttermilk in the sun ? That the Granthi who runs the neighbourhood Gurudwara was watching Stormy’s videos ?
How upsetting would that really be ?

@BB
“That the Granthi who runs the neighbourhood Gurudwara was watching Stormy’s videos ?”
I wouldn’t be surprised if that happens.

My grandmother was Jewish. Her family fled a government who at the time was mostly run by fellow Jews who ended up murdering the King and his small children and later ordering the military to murder tens of million of people of all religions, but mostly Christians. But gosh, that’s tame right? Only about 30 million dead people. Totally tame.

Huh, are you talking about the murder of Tsar Nicholas II’s family and
Stalin’s purges in the thirties that kiilled 20-40 million? I’ve never heard
any claim, even revisionist, that Jews were complicit.
Stalin was notoriously anti-Semitic.

Quote Mr. Curious : … The blissful experience could have something to do with the pineal gland (stimulated by meditation) … https://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolutionary-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0892819278 …
Hello, Mr. Curious.
Yes, I am aware of the possible connection of the pineal gland, and of chemicals like DMT — not to forget auto-suggestion as well — with so-called spiritual experiences.
What struck me in your account was this : You had apparently not been closely associated with Sant Mat at the time of initiation, and nor do you seem to have been at all invested in their particular narrative, so that auto-suggestion seems very unlikely. Nor had you, at the time when you were initiated, spent long hours meditating, so we can rule out stimulation of the pineal gland through protracted and focused practice. And nor had you been made to ingest psychotropic substances at this initiation event (or so I presume, else no doubt you would have mentioned this pertinent fact).
And yet you speak of “light, sound and bliss” at that initiation event, and also mention some disorientation immediately after.
And it isn’t as if your pineal gland had been violently stimulated, at that event, by some kung-fu-style nerve-center-targeted punch between the eyes. (Or so I presume, else you’d have mentioned it, right?)
Given all of this, I was wondering what rational explanation there might be for your remarkable first-hand experiences at the time of your initiation.

Hi AJ
You wrote
“One will have to rely on the circumstantial evidence/”gossip” to decide for oneself. No facts will come out of the most corrupt system.”
I don’t think it’s a good idea to use hearsay as anything more than a rough indicator. That’s the basis of evidence for blind faith also. So it doesn’t meet the standard for factual truth. We are making decisions based on what seems reasonable, and that is hopelessly biased to our own history and culture.
If you believe in the supernatural then you give such claims value, you will believe many supernatural claims.
If you are a cynic you will belive many cynical claims.
But in neither case do you have actual proof.
This current situation is different, however, AJ.
There really is factual evidence, which Brian and others have brought forth including court documents that prove ethics have been breeched and money has been siphoned. It’s more than a smoking gun.
Unfortunately the information you presented is gossip. But it sounds reasonable. It adds depth and provides explanations. But it also deepens the criminality to a whole darker level. But today it remains gossip.
The factual evidence of the sworn testimony of Sathya’s victims also is hard evidence.
Hard data is there. But so is gossip.
And since now hard journalistic information is coming out, I think there is hope that we will get a better picture of actual fact.
It’s good to present what you know, but let’s not pretend it’s fact, just as we would not pretend subjective inner experience is objective external fact.
That is the point of this Church, IMHO. To set and raise the standard of truth. Not to reject other forms of information at all. Everything has its value. But to properly place the quality of that information, placing fact as the highest standard, verified, with independent sources anyone may confirm for themselves.
As for the future of RSSB?
Entire cultures change. The sublest things take root almost invisibly and disrupt culture and politics in retrospect. But at this point the effects are all conjecture.
Sathya’s sect isn’t growing.
Facts do have an impact. They’re like seeds. New people considering joining but doing some investigation see something that wasn’t there before, and will be less likely to join up.
And those very people may be the investigators of tomorrow, the historians who bring a more balanced fact based picture to light for the next generation.

Hi Bombay
You wrote
“@ Spence : This isn’t about multiculturalism or faith options, it is about the dangers of believing in cult philosophies that breed specialness but end up in emotional erosion.”
Both belief and disbelief harbor their own dangers.
I think there is danger in impeding our own natural growth. Growth requires the freedom to try and fail, and try again. The freedom to say” this isn’t quite right ” and to move to another pathway.
Or to say I’ve found truth in it.
The meditation works, in so far as it’s practice gives the promised benefits, at least experientially. That has been my fault experience. And each year the practice becomes finer and more glorious.
There is no finer experience of bliss, that I have known, than that. And it is there for the least amount of daily effort.
To see that co-opted or denigrated by corrupt parties is extremely disheartening. But it takes nothing away from the inner wealth at all.
A flawless diamond in a jeweled setting and one in the dirt is still a flawless diamond.
How can the setting be flawed? Yet, clearly that is the case.
It only raises the value of the flawess diamond.

“Sounds totalitarian! ”
Again,Spence,it’s the historical norm. It’s coming whether or not we like it and these stupid play time with guru ji cults and Islam are only gonna speed up the rebalancing. I also love freedoms but I’m guessing they won’t last.
Dungeness, the slaughters started pre Stalin and “I never heard” is because you never looked into the topic. It’s common knowledge. You can read lists of party members or read Harraetz for Moses’ sake. They’ve discussed the issue.
None of this is relevant to my point anyway which is that we’re gonna lose all these things because hippies like myself didn’t understand how mass psychology works and what the repercussions of chaos would be.

@ Appreciative Reader
@ Curious
“And yet you speak of “light, sound and bliss” at that initiation event”
If I am not mistaken, in Sant Thakar Singh’s initiation, they made people sit for 40 minutes of light meditation and 20 minutes of sound meditation. I think before the light sitting, it was explained that what can be seen at various planes. Before the sound meditation, it was explained what can be heard.
@Curious – Please correct me if the explaining was done after the meditation.
If that is the case, it could be possibly construed as “seeding”. I think David Lane talks about it. There was a similar experiment done with class students and many mystical visions, etc. were experienced by these students.

777 mentions –
“I mentioned only the abusive self appointed in RSSX lines
I suspect a Russian cult in Siberia
Also I have great respect for some “self-appointed” like
the Malaysian Lady who is so strong on vegetarian life
and compassion
she had many TV Channels called SupremeMaster.TV”
The “Self-appointed” Malaysian Lady related to Supreme Master TV is Ching Hai and she is actually vietnamese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ching_Hai
Guess who is her initiating Master?
It is Sant Thakar Singh – from the RSSX lines. (There is a video of Ching Hai sitting near Sant Thakar Singh).
She never publicly acknowledges that Sant Thakar Singh was her Master.
She now claims that she was initiated by some ascended Master in the Himalayas
(Guess who else claims that they were inspired by ascended Masters – It was Paul Twitchell – founder of Eckankar – He was an initiate of Sant Kirpal Singh and severed ties with Sant Kirpal Singh to start Eckankar. He claims a line of 970 Masters that preceded him – http://andrea65.tripod.com/guru3.htm)
Among other things:
– She launched a clothing line in New York and Paris in 1995.[12]
– She teaches Quan Yin (Sant Mat’s light and sound)
– Hai gave $640,000 to Bill Clinton’s Presidential Legal Expenses Trust which it returned in 1996 because of “suspicious” funding sources.[20][21] – Trying to buy political patronage in the US.
– The Taiwan government has investigated Hai’s organization for “alleged fund-raising improprieties”, which included a transfer of $2 million outside of the country.[2]

Kirpal Statistic – Using Inner Visions to Your Social Advantage
David Lane
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/kirpal_statistic.htm
From David Lane –
In the early 1980s when I was teaching religious studies at a Catholic high school, I tried several meditation experiments with my students which convinced me that Kirpal Singh and other gurus like him were taking undue credit for their disciples’ inner experiences. In my trial mediation sessions, I informed my students beforehand about the possibility of seeing inner lights and hearing inner sounds.
Naturally, given the boring routine of secondary education, my students were intrigued. I informed them that I knew of an ancient yoga technique that would facilitate their inner voyages. I turned the lights off, instructed them briefly about closing their eyes gently and looking for sparks of light at the proverbial third eye. I told them that I would touch some students on the forehead lightly with my fingers. They meditated for some five minutes. I then proceeded to ask them about their experiences.
[Kirpal Singh invariably did such a process directly after his initiation ceremonies; he also kept a running tally of how many saw stars and so on-something which I have called the ‘Kirpal Statistic’.]
To my amazement, since I felt that Kirpal Singh and others were actually transmitting spiritual power, the majority of my students reported seeing light. A few students even claimed to have visions of personages in the middle of the light. Others reported hearing subtle sounds and the like.
I repeated the experiment on four other classes that day. I have also in the past ten years conducted the same experiment on my college students (both undergraduate and graduate). The result, though differing in terms of absolute numbers, is remarkably the same. The majority see and hear something. It doesn’t take a neuropsychologist or a sociologist trained in statistics to realize that Kirpal Singh and others were simply tapping into an already built reservoir of meditational possibilities.
What was unique about Kirpal’s approach, at least in comparison with other Radhasoami gurus, was that he claimed to be the responsible agent, the medium through which such inner experiences can be transmitted. Kirpal’s disciples generally did not question his grandiose claims, since many of them did indeed see and hear something during their meditation. What they, of course, did not fully appreciate was that almost anybody could have induced them to have inner experiences.
[I don’t mean to suggest, though, that Kirpal Singh was not a good catalyst, but only that he was not unique and that his success at providing thousands with access to inner lights and sounds was not necessarily connected to his mastership.]

David Lane (http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/kirpal_statistic.htm)
The ‘Kirpal Statistic’ is exactly that: the probable outcome that the majority of meditators, provided the necessary instructions in Shabd or Nad yoga practice, will see and hear something.

@ Appreciative Reader
@ Curious
IF you haven’t already seen, you will find the following video interesting (The Kirpal Statistic: How Visions are Self Projected) –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihm8L-3aabQ

Hi AJ
The hard evidence I’m aware of that exists is the following.
1.the Luthra and Luthra audit initiated by Fortis’ board when finances tanked.
2. The additional audits the board ordered after the first audit.
(in total these proved the Singh Brothers were siphoning loans which remain unpaid to private companies without collateral they had interest in, many with Baba Ji’s wife as the principle director and hence recipient of the funds. And this was one of two reasons they were terminated) .
3.The expose articles by Bloomberg, India Economic Times and others confirming the above.
4. An expose article demonstratiing Gurindar and his wife’s connection to the various companies, interlocked boards, that also mentioned the sale of the RSSB charitable Mohali hospital that was sold to Gurindar’s private equity firm then demolished.
5.The India Government website court record detailing a lawsuit by a construction company against RSSB confirming the sale of the hospital, it’s demolition and transfer of the lands to Fortis (also major interest by Gurindar, operations run by one of his sons, and principal executives the Singh Brothers).
6.The fraud verdict against the Singh Brothers around the sale of Ranbaxy (which was used to grow Religare and form Fortis, both Gurindar holdings.)
7. The fraud and penalty judgment for selling tainted meds and forging documents at Ranbaxy by the Singh Brothers. The largest judgment levied in the history of the United States FDA.
8.An expose about Fortis’ board decision to expel the Singhs in second part in fear they would siphon more loans from Fortis to pay their FDA forgery and the Daiichi fraud judgments against them, in addition to the money they had already siphoned to Subnam, Baba Ji’s wife and others of related interest.
9. The news article detailing Fortis ‘decision to sell the company because of their tanking performance, nearly 2 billion in stock value, with the losses of over $400 million dollars in siphoned and missing money.

Hi AJ
I guess I didn’t have enough coffee this morning… Or still blissed from meditation… I had responded to your request about hard facts with a listed summary of what I recall had been presented and exposed in the press.. The Financial audits, the interlocked boards, the fraud verdict, etc but it is lost in cyber space. After having looked it over, I laughed and thought, “what other information do you really need?”
I wrote that very reply but it went to the wrong comment… But my aging Satsangi friend is feeling better today so its all very good.

@AJ
Thanks for the Kirpal Statistic link, I’ll check it out.
If I recall correctly, STS did indeed mention the types of things one could see during meditation / initiation. So, it could very well be seeding.
I had never meditated before initiation, so don’t have a frame of reference from which to compare.
It’d be interesting to hear the testimony of an initiate who was a strong meditator prior to initiation to gauge if the initiation improved their practice any.
These days, I don’t think inner experiences are “transmitted” per se, but self-generated. Our brains are amazing movie producers / projectors. Every awesome movie we see on the silver screen started out as a vision in someone’s brain.
That said, there are 3 meditation experiences I still don’t have an explanation for (yet):
* The “pulling up” sensation. This can be so strong it’s scary
* Sensory current inversion (kinda feels like your head’s being turned inside out)
* Seeing reflection of my face (as if in a dark pool of water)
When the first 2 happened (in my first 6 mos after initiation), I got a bit frightened and this interrupted my meditation. So, I don’t know where the pulling up / sensory inversion would’ve led.
Again, there’s prob a explanation for those phenomenon as well.

Dungeness, the slaughters started pre Stalin and “I never heard” is because you never looked into the topic. It’s common knowledge. You can read lists of party members or read Harraetz for Moses’ sake. They’ve discussed the issue

Common knowledge… really? Dates? Names? Did you mean Haaretz?

My grandmother was Jewish. Her family fled a government who at the time was mostly run by fellow Jews who ended up murdering the King and his small children and later ordering the military to murder tens of million of people of all religions, but mostly Christians,

What country? Russia? Which King? Again, provide background for these assertions. Which article(s) in Haaretz?

I’m gonna go off here because Dungeness’s “sources????” thing is as bad as the other tedious guy who is afraid of information. Plus it’ll be one of my last posts (you’re welcome) so I feel I should be harsh.
Obviously, Dungeness, you know I’m talking about the Ramanov family and the subsequent events all over what became the soviet union which were certainly not Christian or Russian in their origins and inception. Nothing about communism or socialism really came from Christendom, but oddly enough, all these non Christians were capable of mass murder. It’s not what TV told me.
You’re defensively ascribing angelic qualities to an entire race of people for no reason other than that in one war they suffered a lot and have had trouble everywhere they go. So have a lot of other people. Doesn’t make them immune to doing evil. Somehow ones suffering erases every other aspect of their history in your mind, including shooting kids while being recorded on video.That just conveniently disappears from your mind. Very weird, but also normal in USA. I can promise you that my grandmother and her family, though they weren’t IDF soldiers opening fire on crowds of children, they certainly weren’t angels.
And you have google etc. on the same device that you’re wasting time replying to me with your “um links???” posting. You can search articles yourself on Haretz (who cares how it’e spelled?) about Jewish involvement in many atrocities all over the world if you wish to lower the divine and blameless status of a sacred people in your mind. You can’t accept negative facts about obviously flawed and corrupt gurus so it’s doubtful you’ll be able to overcome the feelings you feel when confronted with the imperfections of what you perceive to be divine ethnicities, but Israel’s own liberal media including Haaarrrrrrreeeeeettttzzzzz reports on stuff like Baruch Goldstein and other bad things beyond whatever the evangelical lobby in USA wants to be known. It’s the information age. Even Tibetans are losing their grip on their claims to being a holy race of monks who totally haven’t been raping kids for a thousand years with impunity (i personally know victims.it’s so culturally ingrained that they think it’s normal to have been raped by lamas). I never thought I’d see that in my lifetime.
You and Appreciative Reader are lazy and dishonest people to be quite frank. I can’t stand anyone who uses the internet yet refuses to utilize search engines when their taboos are touched on, but instead starts saying “sources please!” Even Spencer went out into the wilderness of data like a normal person and searched (and proved me right) when I told him that Gurinder wasn’t as advertised and that his hypothesis about African AIDS medicine was hilariously and tragically hopeless.
I mentioned elsewhere organ harvesting and sex trafficking by various UN orgs. Before you tell me that the UN is saving the world and is comprised of the greatest humanitarians who’ve ever lived and all their employee/mercenaries are made of fluffy clouds and rainbows, please spend time on duckduckgo or yahoo search. I like the chaos in my own brain and I don’t want to use my energy to organize it into an academic-sounding screed for the benefit of random nobodies online. I’d rather just say something controversial and see if you are willing to do an Eddie Bravo and “look into it.”

Hi AJ
Well, my heart is broken.
I cannot associate with such corruption.
Within that same heart are noble ideals of what it means to be human, and in this mind, memories of acts of kindness and compassion, and deeper still, a vast sea of love that I take my sustainance from and could not function without.
I have become too simple, and happy in my simplicity to look upon this moral poverty, this vast appocolypse of what was once a city of nobility, on a platform of principles, highest of all, that God is love.
When that becomes a billion dollar business for the families of the leaders, they have blotted out the sun, turned all that gold into Iron covered in rust.
And tossed the jewels along the roadside.

@ Curious
“That said, there are 3 meditation experiences I still don’t have an explanation for (yet):
* The “pulling up” sensation. This can be so strong it’s scary
* Sensory current inversion (kinda feels like your head’s being turned inside out)
* Seeing reflection of my face (as if in a dark pool of water)”
I don’t have an explanation for these. I have heard a lot of such cases at least in the Sant Kirpal Singh branch. Sant Mat probably calls it opening of the third eye/tenth door and reaching the sub-astral/astral plane. Pulling up or sensory current inversion is perhaps also referred to as “dying while living”.
There is also an initiation video of Sant Baljit Singh (SBS) in which a few newly initiated folks in New Zealand are asked about their experience. One experience discussed is SBS standing on a balcony in a Mansion. David Lane seems to have some explanation for this phenomenon but in this case there was no seeding for seeing SBS on a balcony. Love to understand a possible explanation for this?
My dream project is to be able to setup a website, Sant Mat statistic, on which initiates around the world can report their initiation/meditation experiences and the data collected can be mined for various things including if there is a significant difference between RSSB and Sant Kirpal Singh tree (non-seeding vs seeding). The sample would be kind of biased because the hard core fanatics would not participate (Because of the injunction that the inner experience is not to be shared) but it should provide some insights.

Jesse, I will miss you.
I enjoy your no nonsense attitude and you are really smart and funny. So refreshing in a fake world with fake people and especially fake gurus !!

@ Spence
I take heart from the “fact” that the present time is called Kaliyuga, by the Hindu scriptures, an age of moral depravity and spiritual degeneration. I guess, the disappointment is less if the bar of expectations is set very low accordingly. But I still keep my hope high that there will be some sort of divine (I am hoping there is some higher consciousness because otherwise our existence as a random event is a very depressing thought) intervention.

Thanks, Jen.
It’s fun to binge on internet convos for a while and then disappear. I’ll be back.
But at least 3 others here have said they’re leaving only to be back a day or 2 later. We’ll see if I really go away at all… But I think I will after I read the latest post of Brian’s.

Hi AJ
The meditation is exactly as promised.
The teachings are noble and mostly pure (the Soul has no sex, and we are all part of the One, which we merge with through the Word)
I think the problem is money.
No true Saint, in my estimation, takes a penny.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
When the entire RSSB and Dera are legally in the Master’s name the line has already been crossed. And that started a few Master’s ago.
The distinction between Dera money and Baba Ji’s money was destroyed long before Baba Ji came into the picture. It was all a fraud.
This is a photocopy. But where there are photocopies, the original is there somewhere.
But because the teachings about Shabd and the meditation are pure, so then is the existence of a true Master, a teacher at a higher level.
Who would they be?
Needs to be someone who refuses authority, has no connection to any organization and makes their own honest living, and who knows what I’ve experienced and can help me develop further.
I’m ready.

Hi AJ
I always have the sanctuary within. It’s completely different there. Inner Master never fails and is my sustainance.

@ Spence
I agree with your comments above.
Shabad is the key. If Shabad is real (I think it is – intuitively) then Shabad (the True form of the PLM) will guide us. I suppose if we have the right seeking for the True Home, we will be “found” by the PLM.
Let us hang in tight.
Bon Voyage!

@ Spence
I have some information to share with you but it may not be appropriate to do so on this blog.
Can we connect via email? Brian knows my email. Is it possible for you to shoot me an email?

@ AJ : ” s* ” has suggested that the toe sucking scene is from the Shiv Dayal montage. Well, cultural histories can never be written with absolute accuracy, this toe sucking story and other compositions of karmic reduction go back to the tales from Agra and beyond. I guess there are always practices that are unique to one tutelage while some are passed on. Specifically, the cultural connotation of toe sucking goes back to eighteen century folklore as an act of subservience. Hence, the suggestion of karma absolving makes some sense from a Sant Mat perspective.
You said above … ” Some of the people who might know things, such as this ex-director, have no Axe to Grind with GSD. They are well ensconced themselves to bother running around in a corrupt system trying to expose GSD for no particular reason. ” Well, it began with Dinesh Thakur back in the day and there are several others who have come forward with their accounts. The malpractice was systemic, a business practice. It’s so important to applaud Dinesh and the rest, and even this ex-Director who has given you what you have posted.
Interesting accounts from the other groups, the whole web of Sant Mat is flawed, at so many levels.

I can’t stand anyone who uses the internet yet refuses to utilize search engines when their taboos are touched on, but instead starts saying “sources please!”

Facts and sources are terrible things to waste.

I mentioned elsewhere organ harvesting and sex trafficking by various UN orgs….

Didn’t you suggest GSD might be involved too, moonlighting from
his day job poisoning sick kids? Or, was it the Jews taking a break
from mass murder?
Jesse, I wish you well on your journey. May the truth inside
reach us all.

“Or, was it the Jews taking a break
from mass murder?”
A break. Neo cons just killed tens of millions around the middle east in the past few decades, Israel never stops their genocide.
You’re a sarcastic genocide loving moron, a liar and a hypocrite. I don’t wish you well.

Just a reminder that nobody gets all butthurt if someone ascribes all forms of evil to Christians or anyone else.
Kind of strange defensiveness from Spence and Dungeness. Almost like they want special treatment for some groups.
Ciao!

Quote AJ : … “seeding” … Kirpal Statistic …
AJ, thanks very much for bringing this up. Absolutely on target!
Actually, yes, I’m aware of David Lane’s little “experiment”, absolutely, and of his Kirpal Statistics as well. Although it’s been some years since I’d read of it — straight from the horse’s mouth, incidentally — and I guess this whole thing must have slipped my mind. Again, thanks for posting this very pertinent portion here from DL’s accounts.
Although — now that I think over this again — we still don’t really know what this is about, do we? Neither the Thakar/Kirpal “statistics”, nor DL’s “experiment”. That is, we do know the outcome of both, but I don’t see that we really know the “how” of it.
DL seems to lean towards an actual spiritual experience, when he says, in speaking of this, that “Kirpal Singh and others were simply tapping into an already built reservoir of meditational possibilities”. He questions — and discounts — the Guru’s alleged agency in directly acting as some kind of conduit for this sort of thing, but equally, he seems to believe in the ‘reality’, if only the subjective reality, of “meditational” experiences of this nature.
The other possible explanation is, of course, that this is all a form of auto-suggestion. DL himself doesn’t express that opinion, though, about the outcome of his experiment. Although I have to say, myself, that in as much as a prior description of what to expect seems essential to this process, to that extent a self-induced hallucination, in other words auto-suggestion, would then appear to be the more “rational” explanation. But obviously I’m speculating here, and don’t really know.

Mr. Curious, what was that initiation ceremony of yours actually like, then?
Did they first describe to you what to expect — like AJ asks you, in their comment — and did they also make you meditate on the “light” and “sound”, and did do these both before you were actually initiated? That would seem to be the crucial question.
If your answer is ‘Yes’, then your experiences immediately on “initiation” can be explained away either as straight-out auto-suggestion, or else a self-actualization of your latent meditational potential (that latter, more extravagant, take is David Lane’s interpretation).
But if your answer is ‘No’ — that is, if you were initiated before being told what to expect, that is, if the explanations and descriptions as well as the actual meditation all came afterwards — then we’re back to scratching our heads over some plausible rational (and non-supernatural) explanation for all of this.

You’re a sarcastic genocide loving moron, a liar and a hypocrite. I don’t wish you well.

Ah, fire and brimstone from a blog pastor. I can feel the love!

@ Appreciative
@ curious
FYI – Related to the meditation experience
This was posted on a facebook group called
“Love and Devotion without the Commotion- Sant Mat”
The poster A.L. is an initiate of Pier Franco Marcenaro (who in turn was initiated by Sant Kirpal Singh). A.L. was not aware that he is not supposed to discuss his inner experiences.
Here is what he posted –
“I think the pulling don’t necessarily have to do with what kind of sound. To me it seems like a sound can move around in head and when I reach a certain state the sound place it self in a position in the head where it has a pull 🤔But so far it is only big bell and bagpipers-like sound that have pulled me. Drums, flute, sitar doesn’t have that pull yet.”
“you cannot miss it when it starts. It’s so clear and strong. To me it feels like you’re being lifted inside from the toes up to your face and head. It’s like a feeling of vacuum in the crown chakra down to an area in the head where I think the soul is placed, in line with 6 and 7th chakra.”

“(9) What people often find most satisfying about a religion or form of spirituality isn’t so much the concepts that make up that teaching, but the good feeling they have from being part of a group that accepts them, welcomes them, supports them.”
There is also the fact that when a large group of disciples are sitting in front of their guru and focussing on Him there is a very strong and powerful uplifting energy of love being transmitted which is something worthwhile, even if the guru is just simply playing a role.

Hi Jen
The problem is that our belief is in the Truth.
Meditation awakens inner truths.
And we have the Master to thank for that.
But when we see the Master surrounded by those involved with fraud and theft, even his wife, sons, coworkers and RSSB board members, we cannot ignore the fact that the vows we took have been violated, repeatedly, by those who assumed the roles of model citizens.
What can a thief really teach except to be a thief?
The love we feel is real. And there are real teachers. That is the only explanation for these false copies. The original must also be here somewhere and it is our duty, if we are serious about loving Truth, to find them. A true Sant Sat Guru. One who leads a perfectly clean moral life. One who doesn’t take a penny from the Sangat. One who doesn’t mix Sangat assets with their private business. One who doesn’t legally own the assets of any religious organization. Instead they live a very simple, humble life. A life where their career is small, just enough to sustain their spiritual activity. Where their life reflects the desire to help others, not to build large religious and business empires, and certainly not to entangle both.
They spend their time on higher and eternal things. Their life reflects their vows and their values. They sieve their live in service, not acquisitions.

They are here to give, not take.

Spence, you and I are on very different wavelengths. You are all about justice and so called Truth. I have no idea what truth is and am unknowing, allowing others to be who they are. You are on a path of justice and self-righteousness. We are all different.
If satsangis find love and hope following their guru, then my response is “to each their own”. True compassion and love is about not hurting others, not crushing their beliefs.

The love we feel is real. And there are real teachers. That is the only explanation for these false copies. The original must also be here somewhere and it is our duty, if we are serious about loving Truth, to find them.

That love and ambience Jen speaks is certainly what most
of us feel.
But the dilemma is we see through a glass darkly without
real progress on the path. The disciple never progresses
on his own let alone finds the real Guru.
“When the chela is ready, the Guru appears” is a meme in
mystic literature. The chela searches, but is blind and
incapable of finding the door on his own. He goes through
the motions is all. Like a child crying in the night, he has to
be guided,
If the perception is that GSD is flawed, and improperly
appointed, the disciple is left adrift. Who’s real and who’s
fake. If GSD is fake, who else? Maharji? Entire lineage?
A disciple usually doesn’t have the advancement to know.
What is GSD’s status if he’s officially unconvicted? Or offers
a plausible explanation of wrongdoing? Or doesn’t and
says “Sorry, I suckered you, you’re on your own now.
Forgive me”. Where do the suckered turn?
Love has all the answers. The Path is here to help you find it.
We’ve been given the tools to do it. But it’s still inconceivable
to me to be unfolding this way. It’s one thing to see blatant
wrongdoing and have doubts but I will never give up on GSD
until I hear his explanation and am guided by the truth inside.

The love we feel is real. And there are real teachers. That is the only explanation for these false copies. The original must also be here somewhere and it is our duty, if we are serious about loving Truth, to find them.

That love and ambience Jen speaks is certainly what most
of us feel.
But the dilemma is we see through a glass darkly without
real progress on the path. The disciple never progresses
on his own let alone finds the real Guru.
“When the chela is ready, the Guru appears” is a meme in
mystic literature. The chela searches, but is blind and
incapable of finding the door on his own. He goes through
the motions is all. Like a child crying in the night, he has to
be guided,
If the perception is that GSD is flawed, and improperly
appointed, the disciple is left adrift. Who’s real and who’s
fake. If GSD is fake, who else? Maharji? Entire lineage?
A disciple usually doesn’t have the advancement to know.
What is GSD’s status if he’s officially unconvicted? Or offers
a plausible explanation of wrongdoing? Or doesn’t and
says “Sorry, I suckered you, you’re on your own now.
Forgive me”. Where do the suckered turn?
Love has all the answers. The Path is here to help you find it.
We’ve been given the tools to do it. But it’s still inconceivable
to me to be unfolding this way. It’s one thing to see blatant
wrongdoing and have doubts but I will never give up on GSD
until I hear his explanation and am guided by the truth inside.

@ Spence
“The original must also be here somewhere and it is our duty, if we are serious about loving Truth, to find them. A true Sant Sat Guru. One who leads a perfectly clean moral life. One who doesn’t take a penny from the Sangat. One who doesn’t mix Sangat assets with their private business. One who doesn’t legally own the assets of any religious organization. Instead they live a very simple, humble life. A life where their career is small, just enough to sustain their spiritual activity. Where their life reflects the desire to help others, not to build large religious and business empires, and certainly not to entangle both.”
That is one way to deal with the situation.
Any pointers/leads/suggestions?
Also, are we capable of finding a true Sant Sat Guru (especially if we have not been successful so far)? If there is a Sant Sat Guru (connected to the 5th plane) out there, shouldn’t that Sat Guru be competent enough to find us instead of us with our limited capability trying to search? So, what can we do? Wait? How do we make ourselves ready? What indicates readiness?

@ Appreciative
@ Curious
Curios, please feel free to correct me but I believe the initiation procedure is –
1. Simran words are taught and everyone repeats them for some time. [This is when some Masters claim that initiation happens]
2. The inner planes are described (Astral you see a star, etc. , Causal, 3rd, 4th plane and 5th plane are decribed and their features. It is suggested that one can see some Masters and even the Radiant Form of the initiating Master)
3. Person getting initiation is made to close his eyes, concentrate in the center of darkness in the front and made to repeat the Simran words for approx. 40 minutes or so. Afterwards, the person is asked about his inner experience and this is typically recorded [This kind of written record of initiation experiences was saved and used as proof that Paul Twitchell was initiated by Sant Kirpal Singh]
4. Sounds of various planes are described and technique to hear the sound is described (plug the ears with thumbs, use cushion, wooden Ts or the thighs to support the elbows)
5. Person is made to sit for 20 minutes with ears plugged. The sound experience of the freshly initiated person is discussed after the sitting.
Auto-suggestion might be at work but to be fair not everyone sees or hears what is described before they sit. Example is a Sikh girl in Chandigarh sees Krishna playing flute inside. Krishna was not described as someone who can be seen inside. She, being a Sikh, was not particularly interested in seeing Krishna. If any, she would have been more inclined to see Guru Nanak within. [NOTE: I talked to this Girl]
A lot of people don’t see anything at initiation despite the “seeding”.
Another point, most of the people have significant experiences at initiation and usually don’t have experiences after that. This is explained as Master providing a significant experience at initiation so that the path is made believable and subsequently the initiate has to make progress on their own by meditating hard. [OR is it that the person getting initiated has expectations of some kind of magic and the “seeding” is at work?]

@ Jen
“AJ you say: “most of the people have significant experiences at initiation and usually don’t have experiences after that”.
I’m surprised because satsangis do not usually speak about their inner experiences. We are specifically told not to and I have mixed with many different satsangis from different countries and never had anyone tell me about their experiences. In fact, if they did, I would have been shocked.
AJ were you initiated by an RSSB Master? I am a Charan initiate and we followed very strict rules especially in not discussing our inner experiences.
Posted by: Jen | September 23, 2018 at 10:27 PM”
I am not an RSSB initiate or a Sant Thakar Singh initiate. I am still seeking the truth. For me, the topic is of academic interest, for now. The comment was related to the conversation Appreciative, Curious and I were having. We were discussing Curious’ experience. Curious is a Sant Thakar Singh initiate.
I suppose it depends on what is called inner experience. Is discussing various lights, forms, beings seen and various sounds heard considered inner? I guess, that would be considered inner and initiates from any of the Radhasoami branches/Sant Mat branches usually are not willing to discuss those unless they leave the path. But, is asking someone if they had inner experiences since initiation or for a while (without discussing the details of the actual inner experiences, if any) considered inner? I am not sure. Some of the Sant Thakar Singh’s initiates and his initiation representatives were willing to talk about the lack of inner experience or the frequency of inner experiences without going into the exact details of the inner experience. Apparently, discussing the experience on the day of the initiation, in which a meditation sitting related to light and sound was done, was not such a taboo and the initiation representatives and other initiates were willing to discuss their initiation day experience, if that was helpful.
BTW, “strict instructions” sounds like a religious injunction. Is it related to the KAL bogey?
I sometimes wonder if this was a way to prevent people from discussing and coming to a conclusion that there are no fireworks in the meditation they are doing? Would love to hear your take on why it is not allowed?
Just curious, Does RSSB make you go through a light and meditation sitting at the time of initiation? Is the initiation experience discussed on the day of the initiation? Do people have significant experiences on the initiation day? or is that phenomenon limited to the Sant Kirpal Singh’s branch of Sant Mat?

Hi AJ,
This is an interesting discussion because I always assumed that all satsangis would be very closed mouthed about their experiences. It was really like a taboo and now thinking back I can’t exactly remember who had warned us about talking about inner experiences. It could have been Sam Busa who was the South African representative and he had a close relationship with Charan.
It seems like the Beas branch of Sant Mat was probably more strict than the others. Food for thought now because I hadn’t queried this secretiveness after initiation and my understanding was that if you tell others you will lose your experiences and also it involves the ego. Not related to the KAL bogey but having to be very careful to not have a big ego!
Also, what you just mentioned about no fireworks happening, that probably was a good reason to stop people from talking about their inner experiences, because maybe there weren’t any! My initiation experience was very quiet and formal and we were warned not to ever repeat or say the Simran words out loud. Very secretive. We were told that if we said those words to another person that would mean that we were initiating them. Sounds very different to Kirpal’s branch.

Here is what Baba Faqir Chand mentioned about the truth in one of his satsangs:
“I know not the meaning of these lines. I may be wrong. Had there
been His Holiness Data Dayal Ji I would have asked him about what he
meant by Nama. His Holiness is not here now, only his writings are with
me. His writings give me peace of mind or say I interpret his writings
according to my own satisfaction. There is no other Mahatma who dare
say the TRUTH. I told you that I wrote three registered letters to Baba
Sawan Singh Ji and received no reply. How could he reply? Had he written
the TRUTH, his Dera would have suffered a great loss. Truth is always
bitter. If you say the Truth, you would not be respected or liked. “
– Baba Faqir Chand

My knowledge (Gyana) is that whatever
buds forth or manifests within is nothing but illusion. The suggestions and
the impressions are not the REALITY. Till this fact is not known, the weight
of existence (Bhav) does not vanish. Yesterday, too I explained to you that
all the games of mind, conscience, intellect and ego is existence (Bhav)
After knowing, that all the inward thoughts, feelings and manifestations
are not a fact but a fancy, I do not get tempted by them. This is what I
understand about True knowledge.
– Baba Faqir Chand

Hi Jen
You wrote:
“If satsangis find love and hope following their guru, then my response is “to each their own”. True compassion and love is about not hurting others, not crushing their beliefs.”
If they are following a thief, it is wrong to hide it. Otherwise, they can make a decision for themselves. But they can’t honestly make that decision if they don’t have the facts or don’t understand them.
I’m not saying Baba Ji is a thief at all. But I am saying the facts surrounding his financial dealings are plentiful, from independent and verifiable sources. People must draw their own conclusions. But it’s not fair to them to keep them in the dark or to advocate doing so.
I’m neither hurting anyone nor crushing their beliefs. I’m a Satsangi, Jen. As committed to my Master as ever, and under His protection as much as ever! Actually, I’m doing my job.
All I’m doing is acknowledging the facts Brian and others have shared. These facts are fairly indicative. And they are heartbreaking.
It is possible that a Guru might engage in fraud. May do. Many with many loving disciples.
And it is possible, though less so, that a Sant Sat Guru might do so for reasons we can’t understand.
But let the truth come forth.
Simply put, Jen, Satsangi means Association With Truth. So, how can you be a satsangi and dishonor the truth for pleasantries? That is building on sand. At least as my Master has taught me.
My beliefs haven’t changed at all, nor my practice, nor my inner progress. Nor my commitment to Truth. Nor my love for both Maharaji and Baba Ji.
It is my love of these that compell me to honor the facts. If I were not interested in Truth I would never have engaged this path, nor would the Master have pulled me into it.
The outer characters may simply not be whom they have presented themselves as.
Or the “loving disciples” might not actually be who they think they are.
But we’re all initiates so that means, like it or not, we’re in the same family.
And in a good family, family members talk to each other.

@AJ :
I am not familiar, myself, with the initiation process at Sant Thakar, or for that matter at (Sant?) Kirpal or at RSSB. However, the initiation process you describe is not dissimilar to the initiation process at a great many other traditions. (Of course, not all traditions have a formal initiation process at all.)
In the absence of correction from Mr Curious (or others), I’ll assume what you’re saying is correct (that is, it applies to Thakar Singh’s initiation).
And yes, in that case I suppose the setting would be very similar to the David Lane experiments that you mentioned.
Absolutely, then, auto-suggestion is a possibility. (So is self-actualization of one’s “meditational” potential, I suppose.)
I find this kind of extreme suggestibility difficult to properly wrap my head around. On the other hand, I have never myself been a very suggestible person, never one to simply agree with others, never one to acquiesce to anything in order to simply go with the flow. (And nor have I ever attended Thakar Singh’s initiation, so who knows how I might have myself have reacted to something like that?)
.
Lovely talking, AJ. I agree fully with your view that it makes sense to openly share one’s experiences. Provided one does this honestly and without any vested interest (for example, without manufacturing anything, or emphasizing particular aspects in order to either inflate or to discount the image of individual traditions, or in order to pretend to be some kind of a spiritual superman, or something like that), I think this would help everyone who’s interested make (better) sense of this sort of thing.
Only thing is : Many organizations — not just RSSB — have these express proscriptions against speaking about one’s experiences (other than in closely controlled situations or groups). Most don’t explain why they do this, and those few that do bring up that inflating-your-ego chestnut.
For those who follow these traditions, and take these proscriptions seriously, I suppose an acceptable halfway house might be to share their experiences anonymously : after all, how much of ego build-up can possibly accrue when you’re not even publically announcing your name?

@ Appreciative
@ Curious
@ Jen
I just spoke with someone who used to be the initiation rep (IR) of Sant Thakar Singh. The IR confirmed most of what I had reported.
Here is some additional info –
1. every one getting initiated repeated the Simran words aloud to practice it for 30 minutes or so. IR would say the Simran (5 words – Mantra – available online) and the people getting initiated would follow. Then after some time everyone present at initiation would do it simultaneously. [30 minutes for Simran recitation aloud + 40 minutes of light meditation (while repeating the simran words) + 20 minutes of sound + description of initiation + dos and dont’s + description of the spiritual planes – it took about 2 and half hours to perform the initiation]
2. There is an injunction much like RSSB to not disclose the Simran words and not to discuss the inner experiences [I believe pretty much every Sant Mat lineage follows that – I believe it may have been to keep the words secret – Ishwar, who I am studying these days, openly mentions that those words are available online and the best they can do is to help a person reach the Astral plane in meditation and nothing else. Baba Sawan Singh has described why those particular and different words were chosen as Simran words – helps prevent the mind from getting into a rut, which happens with a single word Mantra ]
3. Sant Thakar Singh had an oral simran program. 5 or 10 people could volunteer (seva) where they would recite the Simran aloud in the presence of a possessed initiate [Sant Thakar Singh’s ministry was known for treating the possessed people] to give them relief. Some people still recite the Simran aloud [in private] before commencing their meditation. It is supposed to help calm the mind.
4. IRs could help initiates with their meditation issues [But disclosing inner experiences, especially the details of it, was discouraged because of the Ego development – I agree with Appreciative when he says that it could be done anonymously – no ego gain there]. The lack of inner experiences could be discussed with the IR who would try to help with giving Tips.
5. Any initiate, at least in the US, could sit in the initiation of others. This would allow them to meditate in the presence of the Master Power, which was very strong at the time of initiation. Also, the initiation experience of freshly initiated person [who would meditate and have some experiences at the time of initiation] could inspire the initiates who were lacking inner experiences.
6. Regarding auto-suggestion, The IR said that what could be discovered inside was very briefly described in general terms. So, it may not have been at work. Many people reported experiences that were not suggested before they sat for initiation [But there is always the chance of subconscious getting triggered and creating a unique experience of its own]
7. If an initiate forgot about the Simran words, he or she could ask another fellow initiate over the phone or in private [This would result in the Simran words being spoken] but care was taken that a non-initiate does not hear the Simran words.
8. Regarding speaking the Simran words to others. It is also treated as initiating others. So, the words are not disclosed to others.
9. Imagining or contemplating the physical Master was strictly forbidden [So, there was no Dhyan aspect of the meditation that is practiced, I believe, in RSSB and Baba Sawan Singh talks about in the Spiritual Gems]. The light or dhyan aspect of the meditation was basically looking at the darkness in the front and repeating the Simran words and waiting for the light to appear and the inner journey to commence – it was expected that the Radiant Form of the Master would appear on its own [no imagining to be done because then you fall in the trap of the mind – mind recreating the Master]
10. Regarding suggestibility, Not everyone had stellar meditation experiences at Initiation. So, perhaps different people with different suggestibility or perhaps different people have different levels of concentration and some may have been too excited about the possibility of seeing things within – who wouldn’t be excited to see their beloved God/Guru – Nanak, Krishna, Jesus, Sathya Sai, Jehovah, Isiah, etc. – all were reportedly seen at Sant Thakar Singh’s initiation.
11. Regarding anonymously discussing initiation experience as a sort of a rigorous and scientific study. It will be very difficult. The sample would be very small [perhaps only some of the folks that visit this site] because many will be prevented by the injunction of Sant Mat gurus to not disclose the inner experiences.

Hi AJ
You wrote
“11. Regarding anonymously discussing initiation experience as a sort of a rigorous and scientific study. It will be very difficult. The sample would be very small [perhaps only some of the folks that visit this site] because many will be prevented by the injunction of Sant Mat gurus to not disclose the inner experiences.”
The intention of that rule is to avoid ego, pride and status. We should digest our experience.
But Sant Mat at core is a science. Therefore research is crucial. My Masters degree was in the study of meditation practice. There was no question and only support for the work. Anonymity and a healthy sample size, along with confidential testing periods can resolve all that. Long term meditators are beyond these issues. They are as interested in the results, whatever they may be, as any curious researcher.

Hi AJ (& AR),
Thanks for the research! What you wrote accurately describes my STS initiation experience.
Here are a few additional notes / deets:
* I was initiated by STS directly. Prior to the initiation, he gave a short talk. His IRs treated him with visible deference throughout. During initiation, STS touched each person’s 3rd eye center.
* I sat directly in front of him and looked into his eyes as he talked / gave Simran (as instructed / suggested by the person sitting next to me). I thought it was odd that someone asked me to look into his eyes (to receive vibrations no less!), but I went with it for the story / experience. Ok, whatevs, I’ll look into his eyes for the vibes, lol…
* I had a hard time understanding every word of STS’s talk, due to his thick accent, but could discern most. During the part of his pre-initiation talk about the downward trajectory of the world, negative power, etc. he looked directly at me and made a comment re: how Indians in the US have bad habits and compromised morals, and are even worse than Americans. [This seemed a little psychic to me. I’m Indian American and was, admittedly, hedonistic at the time…by any standard. He may have been given some info beforehand, who knows.]
* After the initiation, IRs went around to each person and asked them discretely what they saw & heard within and jotted down the answers.
* My personal inner experience was:
During light meditation: Moving clouds of blue light, white foggy light. These clouds burst when you focused on them. Feeling of traversing inner space.
During sound meditation: Roaring river, thunder. Sound started on the right side, but then shifted to above.
Feeling: Bliss / relaxation that persisted for a few hours. Felt like drugs (I was not under the influence at the time).
Another person sitting next to me, a middle aged caucasian man, saw Maharishi Mahesh Yogi inside. I tried to make conversation with him after, but he was visibly shaken and rushed off.
I was in a very good mood when I left, and drove absentmindedly in the wrong direction for 1/2 hour. [I lived 5 min away.]
During the first 6 months, meditation came VERY easily as we were told it would. Concentration, bliss and insight seemed to come each time (in addition to lights, etc.). After the 6 months, it became tougher.
As far as faith goes, I would doubt often. However, faith would renewed during each summer retreat (STS flew in from India). There definitely seemed to be something magical, inspiring in the atmosphere.
The last time I experienced that from Sant Mat was 2003, I think. My personal POV is that the positive feeling came from being in a tight-knit community, a feeling of specialness / feel good-ism and the real benefits of meditation. Unfortunately, dogma, judgment, hypocrisy and corruption creeped in (as they do in every faith or movement).
OK, that’s all I got!

Curious, Thanks for validating my information.
Also, thanks for reminding me about the touch on the forehead. My IR friend also touched the 3rd eye area when the IR was initiating in Sant Thakar Singh’s name (I have heard Rajinder Singh also does this – it comes from Sant Kirpal Singh I believe). This act is supposed to raise the consciousness faster to the third eye.
Regarding, STS directly looking at you –
1) It could be that he had mind reading ability [Many yogis/psychics/spiritual pandits have demonstrated that – I had a weird experience of going and seeing one in the Himalayas – He looked at my forehead and blurted out a lot of correct information – even described my apartment in the US]
or
2) He just looked at you because you were one of the Indian Americans while making a fairly general comment about the Indian American and your inner guilt ascribed the comment as directed at you.
????
BTW, the STS’s last visit to the US was in 2003. So, it makes sense that your last magical atmosphere was in 2003.
What happened to the Organization that made you disconnect? Was this after the 2003 visit of STS? He was quite sick in 2004.
Regarding the 6 months period, I was told it was called the Grace period – when the Master Power works strongly through you to convince you that the path is real. Afterwards, you are supposed to meditate with your own effort until you reach the Radiant Form. One master has commented that if you sincerely do meditations in the 6 month period immediately after the initiation, one can validate if one’s master is perfect or not
AR,
It looks like you have a lot of information to try a suggestive meditation experiment to see if you can self-induce a Sant Mat experience or find a good catalyst (as David Lane) says.
If you or anyone else is looking for a good catalyst or experimenting with meditations without getting initiated, Ishwar Puri has a lot of recorded guided meditation sessions on youtube. He also holds a meditation retreat every year [There was one held this past weekend in Wisconsin] and he has a few intensive meditation retreats- 7 days of meditation instructions and practice [It is listed on his website – ishanews]. They are open to anyone [any seeker who is not initiated and perhaps never wants to get initiated but is open to the idea of meditation. NOTE: Many Sant Mat paths restrict such events to the initiates]
Spence, I will cook up a survey and send it to you. I will appreciate if you can review it. Perhaps, we can convince Brian to post it as a small experiment and we can look at potentially creating a website out of it. I would be curious to know what insights can be generated. I have heard of a lot of people with no inner experience after 40+ years of meditations.
Another difference between RSSB and STS, the Satsang concept in the North America was quite different. RSSB satsangs consist of someone preparing material and delivering a 1 hr talk.
STS Satsangs were 1 hr of Master’s DVD [They are supposed to have some kind of charging or empowerment and make you focus your attention on the Master – Also serve to quieten the mind by redirecting attention from the worldly issues to the spiritual Master] followed by 1 hr of group meditations [All satsangis meditate in one place – If there is such a thing as vibration, everyone is feeding off the good vibration of the others. The advanced are uplifting the strugglers]

Mr Curious says: “I thought it was odd that someone asked me to look into his eyes (to receive vibrations no less!), but I went with it for the story / experience.” and “During initiation, STS touched each person’s 3rd eye center”
I am wondering if there was some kind of hypnosis happening, some kind of transference? So different from my initiation experience.
I was initiated in the 60’s and never interested in any other spiritual path but RSSB, in fact had not even heard of these others, so its interesting to read what other people have experienced. The satsangis I have mixed with (in South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia) never mentioned anything about entity possession so this is very surprising. Have to be careful in choosing a Master obviously.
I just looked up Sant Thakar Singh and came across this discussion on a forum. Very strange to hear about an initiate suffering from entity possession.
………….
“I am a person who suffers from entity possession while following the
practices of Sant Thakar Singh. Entity possession varies in its seriousness
but more than 10% of Sant Thakar Singh’s initiates worldwide suffer from it.
I have sought to leave Sant Thakar Singh and follow a safer teacher of Sant
Mat but none is able to break my connection with Sant Thakar Singh and so I
am trapped. I am in a position of real suffering and many other Thakar
initiates suffer similarly.
…
Sadly, many many too many of the
initiates of Sant Thakar Singh suffer from chronic entity possession.”

Jen / AJ,
Re: the entity cases, they used to be a lot more visible at retreats and other events, but at some point, I didn’t see them as much. Either they were cured or hidden away, I guess.
As I mentioned before, possession seemed to afflict the strongest of believers. This is very similar to the possession / exorcism phenomenon in Catholicism. Reports show people can indeed suffer from a possession of sorts, but this is self-induced on some level. A similar phenomenon can be seen in some Christian denominations where people feel compelled to speak in tongues, etc.
There’s a great documentary by the director of the Exorcist movie where he asks scientists and medical professionals to review possession cases (Catholic, in this case) and comment on the phenomenon at hand (which often included super-human strength, unnatural amounts of energy, etc.). The scientists / medical professionals definitely agreed something was indeed happening, but could not determine the source. Tellingly, possession only impacted believers which seems to point to the fact that there’s some conditioning at play. Not sure though, the jury is still out…
Regardless of the ultimate veracity of the path, STS, etc. it was definitely an interesting and heady time. You were directly involved in the battle between good and evil!
Gotta find another mission or cause!

@ AJ / AR,
Interestingly, Ching Hai was an STS initiate. [She’s a self-appointed female “Supreme Master” based in Asia.] She doesn’t like to bring attention to the fact that she’s an STS initiate and has denied it. However, there are photos in circulation I hear that show the two together.
Ching Hai has quite a large following, and her movement operates 140 vegan restaurants worldwide. Plus, she has a 24-7 TV channel were she spouts loads of nonsense like how she’s a 9th level master, her pets are 5th level, etc.
Sorry for digressing, but think it’s an interesting connection and shows how these different gurus compete and try to out do each other (like businesses).
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/restaurants-bars/cult-leader-behind-worlds-fastest-growing-vegan-restaurant-chain/news-story/bdaf35c277e303881f071bb2803861c1
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kwkaz9/the-restaurant-chain-owned-by-a-cult

@ Curious
@ Jen
“I am wondering if there was some kind of hypnosis happening, some kind of transference? So different from my initiation experience”.
It could be. But Sant Thakar Singh was more effective in inducing this hypnosis than others [Rajinder, Ajaib, Ching Hai, etc. – Of course RSSB initiations are different]. I guess, he was a better catalyst [As David Lane likes to call Gurus]. Touch on the forehead could, perhaps, increase the receptivity because you have just been touched by the Master (who, you have been told by the excited initiates, has come from the Sach Khand to take you back to your true home – I guess you already have a lot of receptivity at that time to take up initiation given the information – you believe Sach Khand is true and a Master is capable of taking you there – the touch adds to the receptivity and results in the magic]. Perhaps, we can do an experiment to see if the touch works for us ordinary catalysts or did Sant Thakar Singh’s touch had anything special.
Jen, I believe you got it from the following thread (I read this perhaps a decade ago) –
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.meditation.shabda/iFKAGwC40ig/n2HDo_cTDQAJ
“Initiation is a very serious choice that has many long lasting
consequences. It is not a decision that should be entered into casually but
should rather be given the most serious consideration. The choice of inner
connection to the Master can not be undone once established through the
initiation. “ – Ralph Stein
One thing, I agree with is that organizations should inform the initiates that “INITIATION is IRREVERSIBLE”. It seems to be an unethical thing to do especially when the Organizations believes that initiation is irreversible (It is a different story that outsiders/disgruntled initiates may not even give any importance to initiation). What if an initiate wants to reverse an initiation? There is no de-initiation anywhere in the Sant Mat lines?
“Sadly, many many too many of the
initiates of Sant Thakar Singh suffer from chronic entity possession.”
Question is do they suffer the entity problem because of Sant Thakar Singh or Sant Thakar Singh picked the entity cases (resulting from their own karma – as STS would say – building relationships with entities by using Reiki and other psychic healing) and initiated them to help them? I guess the jury is still out and remain out unless this was properly investigated. I wish the organization had kept proper records for such cases (and shared them – wishful thinking).
“Re: the entity cases, they used to be a lot more visible at retreats and other events, but at some point, I didn’t see them as much. Either they were cured or hidden away, I guess.”
Both.
1. The Successor of Sant Thakar Singh banned entity cases from attending retreats. [So, no entity cases after 2005] This upset a lot of Sant Thakar Singh initiates who firmly believe he was doing a great service by helping the entity cases. This has resulted in disgruntlement (kind of similar to what Charan initiates feel about GSD changing things around). A lot of these initiates have now sought re-initiation from Ishwar especially after the Maa fiasco [Curious, you will be intrigued to know that the blonde assistant, from Austria, who used to be Sant Thakar Singh’s helper and always present with him, has taken re-initiation from Ishwar as per my friends]
2. My friend in Australia reports that he knows a few cases in which the entity cases got cured within 10 years or so by listening to the Shabad for 3 hrs or so daily (sound – I guess even the physical/preparatory/non-pulling/practice sound also can heal on the physical plane). If it is true then there is hope that Shabad works. [There are similar reports in North America].
“super-human strength, unnatural amounts of energy”
I met a Sant Thakar Singh initiate. She explained that she experiences these attributes and can fling her husband across the room.
“You were directly involved in the battle between good and evil!”
That was Sant Thakar Singh – Always fighting the Kal according to his initiates. I could never wrap my head around that one.
Curious, I think I had talked about Ching Hai in the earlier part of this thread. I agree with what you reported about her. Interesting case. [Paul Twitchell also disowned Sant Kirpal Singh in a similar manner]. She is much bigger than Sant Thakar Singh now. Sant Thakar Singh’s organization runs a single bakery in Sutherlin, Oregon [I heard it is one of the best in the area and people from far go there for the goodies prepared using produce from the organic farm in LCO] but nothing compared to the chain of restaurants and other businesses that Ching Hai runs.

Hi AJ, you ask: “Jen, I believe you got it from the following thread (I read this perhaps a decade ago) – ”
Yes, it was that thread called: “Sant Thakar Singh – I Just Want Out”.
Glad that there was no Touch on the forehead at my initiation, probably because it was by proxy. “Initiation is Irreversible” I don’t mind that too much because I think Charan was probably (hopefully) the real deal.
Oregon seems popular with these cults. I watched Netflix’s excellent series “Wild, Wild Country” about Osho and the ‘orange people’. So different to the strong moral principles taught by (old version) Sant Mat, no wonder Gurinder changing the teachings is upsetting a lot of people.

@ Jen
“I think Charan was probably (hopefully) the real deal.”
It sounds like you still have doubts/hesitations. You are not sounding 100%.
Have you not validated your path/Master?
That brings a series of interesting questions, how does one validate one’s Master?
Radiant Form? Meditation experience? Are there external signs? What makes one sure that one is on the right track? Some talk about meditating sincerely and within 6 months validating the Master? How? Some talk about meditating with love and devotion? What does it mean?
How does one know that you have found the right Master? What if one has made a mistake? What does one do then? Seek another Master? How do we know if the new Master is the real deal?
Seems like the spiritual path is more confusing than the real world.
I would appreciate any thoughts/pointers/feedback

Can someone briefly describe the RSSB initiation procedure?

Hi AJ,
I’m wondering if the spiritual power transmitted from the original Masters in this Beas line has been slowly decreasing.
Probably the spiritual path is just as confusing (not more) than this so called ‘real’ world.
Yes, I do have doubts/hesitations. Why should I be either a believer or the opposite, an unbeliever. I’m somewhere in the middle. Taking the middle road like the Buddhists 🙂 Maybe even following my own path now.

Hi AJ
You asked
“How does one know that you have found the right Master?”
How do you know you have the right friend? The right spouse?
It’s always difficult to judge other people.
But if you see that person as a good person, good company, then what can keep you from them?
I would like to suggest adding another question, one that Maharaji taught me and which has proven to be a good guideline :
Does their company, whether it feels good or feels bad, help you to make your own progress?
That’s easier because we have access to more information about ourselves and, if we are honest, can make a better assessment of our own progress.
I have found this to be a critical and powerful tool. It was a gift of Maharaji, and has helped me often to make decisions important to my own progress, even to helping me critically evaluate what personal progress really means for me, and what it should be gauged upon.
It has helped me decide to stay in unpleasant situations demanding sacrifice, effort and submission that were helpful to my development, as well as to leave pleasant situations that were a distraction from my own inner development.
Since that evaluation is ongoing, it is not going to look the same year by year.
We take in new information that helps us revise our personal assessment.
It’s a good thing to learn and grow, and to change.
The tree laden of fruit, heavy with fruit bends low to the ground.
It is the tree barren of fruit that stands tall, unmoving.

How does one know that you have found the right Master? What if one has made a mistake? What does one do then? Seek another Master? How do we know if the new Master is the real deal

Mystics say the “right” Master is the one you feel drawn to.
Ishwar Puri clarifies if any master says answers are found
within -and not outside- then he’s set the correct course.
Other mystics provide a list of guide posts: does he charge
money, claim to be a master, etc. But could lists and rules
ever get us out of this mess?
Ultimately, what’s inside is the correct benchmark. Does
your intuition tell you you’re on the right path? Are you
making progress? Are the experiences repeatable, does the
discipline sharpen awareness, raise appreciation of the
beauty and depth and preciousness of all you’ve received,
transform you with its friendship and love?
Maybe it’s a stepping stone only. You’ll keep seeking and
be drawn to a new Master. But it was the right direction
from the start.

Hi Dungeness, Spence and Jen
Thanks for sharing all the information. It is very helpful.
Jen, middle way makes sense.
Spence, checking on one’s progress seems to make sense. I should read up on Maharaj Charan Singh’s books. Any recommendations? I guess, one can constantly evaluate one’s progress especially on the outside and see if the company of the holy man is making any difference.
In that context, Sant Kirpal Singh had recommended keeping a spiritual diary and marking failures, in thought, word and deed, in various moral aspects (https://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/gfx/new_diary.gif) and reviewing it. Perhaps, a modified version incorporating other aspects/attributes could be used.
Meditation, especially on the creative force, and the company of the Master should, in theory, make you a better person at the worldly level and people should be able to see the difference otherwise the spiritual path was a waste of time.
Dungeness, Ishwar always seems to make sense at least to me.
I will check him out with an open mind. I can always try to see if he can satisfactorily answer some of my questions in his Public talks and there is always an option to have a personal meeting with him. Ishwar has talked about the “unconditional love” of a Master and the “pull of the Master”. It would good to see if I can experience that, despite my over critical mind, when I meet him. I have nothing to lose.

Hi AJ, you say “Jen, middle way makes sense.”
When I look at the Sant Mat path now I see a kind of strenuous disciplinary struggle going on with the mind and trying very hard to be perfect almost, well for me anyway. Now discovering how to be accepting, being in the moment, watching as an observer, not clinging, not fighting, seems a much better path. Its an ongoing practice and its all about being authentic and honest with self.
Finding the Middle Way
When we discover the middle path, we neither remove ourselves from the world nor get lost in it.  We can be with all our experience in its complexity, with our own exact thoughts and feelings and drama as it is. We learn to embrace tension, paradox, change.  Instead of seeking resolution, waiting for the chord at the end of a song, we let ourselves open and relax in the middle.  In the middle we discover that the world is workable.
https://jackkornfield.com/finding-the-middle-way/

Hi AJ
You asked:
“Spence, checking on one’s progress seems to make sense. I should read up on Maharaj Charan Singh’s books. Any recommendations?”
Spiritual Discourses Volume 1. It’s incredibly wise. You will see a lot of myths around RSSB are dispelled by Maharaji, and good guidelines for living.

Quote AJ : AR, — It looks like you have a lot of information to try a suggestive meditation experiment to see if you can self-induce a Sant Mat experience or find a good catalyst (as David Lane) says.
That’s a great idea, AJ. Except, speaking for myself (and for no one else), I’m not in favor of experimental experiments, if you follow my somewhat inarticulate drift. But yes, I am, indeed, in the process of conducting some experiments of this nature, following the full prescriptions and proscriptions of the traditions concerned : but those have nothing to do with RSSB or Thakar.
As far as RSSB (and Thakar) specifically, my interests are more academic than anything else. And that interest is due, in large part, to the nature of this blog, and the (to me) fascinating discussions one often comes across here, and occasionally participates in.
Incidentally : I’d been toying with the idea of actually taking the plunge, re. RSSB I mean, one of these days ; but the far-less-than-pristine vibes that one gets from there of late has put me off, perhaps for good. (Again, that’s speaking for myself, and no one else. No judgment implied here towards anyone else’s choices, past or present.)
Quote AJ again : Perhaps, we can do an experiment to see if the touch works for us ordinary catalysts or did Sant Thakar Singh’s touch had anything special.
Heh, that’s not a bad idea!
We’d all taken David Lane’s experiments to mean that there is nothing especial about the likes of Thakar and Kirpal. And yet here’s a third bona fide explanation staring us in the face : perhaps DL is something of an adept himself, without himself realizing it! And experiments of the kind you mention would help us test this hypothesis. (Although then, at the end of our experiments, we may end up with the provisional hypothesis that we ourselves, unbeknownst to ourselves, might actually be adepts!)
[Kidding!]