Osho Robbins talks with Gurinder Singh Dhillon

>Gurinder speaks extremely vaguely, contradicts himself and deflects in the exact same way as his predecessors
>Osho Robbins tries to tell us what Gurinder REALLY meant and says we’re reading into his words as he does exactly the same.
This is all such a sad and boring joke at this point.

Those teachings say that the guru is greater than God, because the guru takes souls back to God, being God in Human Form. The radiant form of the guru (meaning, a supernatural form) guides the disciple through higher regions of reality all the way to Sach Khand, or “heaven.” -Brian Hines
Brian refers to the contradiction in what the current guru is saying. On the one hand the teachings elevate the guru to god status and even beyond god. On the other hand the current guru says “I am just a guide and a teacher”
Guru Nanak was asked “who are you”
His reply: I am a puppet made of the five elements and I am called Nanak. Hardly a claim to Godhood. What He DID claim was an insight into the nature of ONENESS. And once you have that insight, all is ONE, so there is no greater or lower.
To add to Brian’s argument, there are even scriptures where, for instance, Kabir says that “Kabir’s mind has become so pure like the river Ganges, that God is running after Kabir, calling his name, asking him to stop”
In another place Kabir says he met God on the way to Kaaba, and God started fighting with Kabir, asking him “who says I reside in Kaaba”
Kabir was a poet and all poets have “poetic licence” which means that in order to make the point, he says whatever he needs so say. Obviously Kabir never met God or argued with him.
Neither did God chase after Kabir.
These are just metaphors and poetic licence to make a point. The story is not designed to be taken literally otherwise you end up with confusion because you start to think god can be seen and had a form and talks to you.
Admittedly the RSSB teachings DO contain a lot of mixed messages. In fact in many instances, I agree with Brian, that the teachings as written in the RSSB books do often over-rate the physical form of the guru. And swami ji’s Teachings also do that.
However, I am simply reporting what the current head of RSSB is stating. If HE said “Hey Sangat, I am the supreme Being or Sat Purush, and I have come in his human body to take you back” then I would report that.
However his message is different.
He says those teachings in the books are a metaphor. For instance the story of Kal standing on one leg for x number of jugas. There is no Kal according to GSD. Why? Because there is only the ONE.
So GSD is not in agreement with the teachings in the books. Hence he says at times, “burn the books”
To add to Brian’s Point, GSD sits on stage while a speaker gives out duality teachings and says lots of things that GSD does not in fact agree with.
In response to a question on Sunday regarding this, He said “don’t take those things literally, they are just symbolic”
The current guru also has another view which is that you have to start with where you are. If you are firmly steeped in duality then talking about ONENESS is pointless because you cannot understand and people usually condemn and dismiss what they don’t understand.
So He says “you have to meditate” because the disciples are already of the opinion that in order to realise God they have to DO something so he gives them something to do.
He contradicts this, only if someone (usually yours truly) raises the point. Then he says that only the ONE is the doer of everything and all happens in his hukam.
But he doesn’t recommend living that way unless it is your own inner realisation
I understand the point he is making
I don’t agree with everything.
He presents a path. If someone like it, take it, if not leave. There is nothing against leaving.
Equally for the people who choose that path, that is their choice. Let and let live.
I am just correcting some of the erroneous ideas presented by some commenters. For instance he does not claim to be god in human form.

Brian makes an intelligent and reasonable point and backs it up with evidence. That is how an argument should be presented.
No name calling. No arguments like “just because”
That allows both sides to present their point intelligently.
Jesse on the other hand just makes accusations.
For example in the above comment
He says its a sad and boring joke.
That’s not an argument and has no basis. No evidence is presented.
On top of that Jesse’s argument is not even based on reality.
I stated what gurinder actually said on stage. If I give my interpretation, I make it clear that it is my interpretation.
Jesse has no basis for his argument and constantly uses logical fallacies.
Brian has a valid point and a reply presenting a different view can be given. That’s an intelligent dialogue.
If i replied by saying to Brian, “your view point is so sad and is just a boring joke” that would not be an intelligent argument.
So intelligent comments expressing a certain view are welcome. Pointless name calling is not a valid argument.

Biggest predicament this joker has created is that corruption and honesty are one/nothingness. Scandals and no scandals are one/nothingness. Medical malpractice of Asians and Christian Missionary Doctors dedicating their lives for patient care are one. Cunning Hindus, Sikhs [who could not invent even electric bulb] and Christian Innovators are one. Rapist Ram Rahim and Gurudom of this Guru are one/one scoundrel.

Maharaji did not claim being the PLM either..But..,
But Babaji goes further into the ”He is not”
Further more it is very contradictionary because the satsang sewadar’s
sitting next to him claim he is the PLM..
The old books all claim about the Perfecct Living Master..
So contradictions enough.
So one is Free to Believe what one wants..
Or Love or Like Babaji..or not..
Nobody really knows..ofcourse,because it’s byond us..
Very much byond.
What make things interesting..because we do not know..
;0)

Logical Fallacies
Ad Hominem: An attack, or an insult, on the person, rather than directly addressing the person’s reasons. Name calling is a form of this fallacy.
A fan argued that Coach did not have a winning season because he was stupid.
This logical fallacy seems to be the sum total of most of Jesse’s comments.

Copy:
Osho, talking about questions to ask when you happen to go there again.
Why do you go there?
Why does he sits there?
How is your going related to his sitting there?
We can only love what we know of experience mentally
Who or what to love?
Guides show us a path from A to B.
What is the path he guides on?
What is the goal B?
How does that goal relates to our being here?
Teachers and students have a common interest.
What is that interest?
What qualifies him as teacher?
What qualifies you as student?
again
Why do you go there?
Why does he sits there?
What is the relation between his sitting there and you going there?
Just some simple questions, many of these simple questions are possible.
The tale that was told by previous teachers, explained the position of both the teacher and the student in terms of the sheperd tale.
If that tale is is no longer valid, there must be a new tale as ALL games have to be played by the rules.
So what does the game that is to be payed according him looks like and what is everybody’s role in the play.
P.S.
“You” stands for you or anybody else.

I also don’t agree that GSD refers disciples to the books and the traditional teachings.
In fact, quite the opposite, he refutes the previous teachings. He says “burn the books”.
Of course he did specifically reply to my question saying that the previous gurus and the scriptures say that the creator will take care of the souls, but that was specifically in response to that point, not generally.
When I pointed out that no creator can come because in ONENESS there is no ” coming or going” he agreed and said that God is ever present so doesn’t really come or go.
However, that has to be your realization, not just something you heard or read.

Hi Osho
God is in every grain of sand, and sings in every cell in our body. And in every star.
Has any Saint said otherwise?
But who really can see it and hear?
So the journey is always within us, our developing perception, our passage within ourselves from lower awareness to greater.
But along the way we discover that what we thought and felt yesterday is ignorant compared to what we see today. That can only happen with an open and focused mind, Osho.
The calm, awake, mind, like the calm lake, is transparent, and we can see clear through it to what is truly there, at every level, right down to the bottom of it all.
And there are many things within us. Everything that makes up the unconscious mind is there waiting to be discovered. Everything and everyone. Yes everyone. We are more than a single intelligence. And there is far more intelligence molded by evolution, ancient intelligence, in these bodies and brains. And there is connection to this entire creation in ways we have yet to discover. We are not isolated units at all. We are influenced, we are a tiny fragment in a very large, multi – leveled creation of many intelligences.
The basis of meditation is to help us put aside lust, anger, greed, pride, attachment and raise our own awareness and intelligence. Those negative forces that are our blinders, our barriers, our own camoflouge from parts of our own past, our own self, we see often by their destructive effect and after the fact. But a calm view of things can give us the wisdom to act with less harm. These are internal stages of development.
So you can say we are there, but that isn’t true. It is more accurate to say the equipment is within every one of us, if we choose to use it. Our personal development is no illusion. It’s a daily, moment-by-moment event; A challenge to our personal integrity. An opportunity.
But if you carry a position, an argument, a static case that must be defended, like a fort, then you must remain stuck in that fort to do so.
The opportunity to grow is no illusion. But the cost is too give up a favored opinion in order to see a larger picture. And with each step the world becomes a different place to us, from our growing perspective.

O Robbins wrote: “I am simply reporting what the current head of RSSB is stating. If HE said ‘Hey Sangat, I am the supreme Being or Sat Purush, and I have come in his human body to take you back’ then I would report that.”
Heh heh! Oh boy.
But can you name and quote any of the previous four Beas Gurus saying anything like that?
Or let’s make it easier for you: can you quote any anecdote in the lives of all the people regarded as Sant Mat Sat Gurus whose biographies and teachings Beas publish, who ever claimed that?
If not, why do you think it is that no person regarded as a Sant Sat Guru by Radha Swami Gurus, not one in all of their version of Sant Mat history is reported as saying something like that?

Hi Osho
Did you get an opportunity to ask Baba Ji about his delinquent bills?
This has event to do with his credibility to make philosophical comments and to interpret the teachings.
And BTW, as this was before the national Satsang week, how did you get time with him?

Hi Chris!
The disciples do say that.
If you read With a Great Master in India you see it.

Also Chris, the Masters do claim their own Guru is greater than God because the Guru can help them find God…a lot of that sort of thing in Sar Bachan.
It depends on how you define God.
Maharaji often said that there is no difference between the Guru and the disciple, except the Guru realizes who he actually is, and is here to help us do the same.
In Sar Bachan you read that the Lord sent the Guru’s here to bring back the “marked souls”, and so they carry no Karma of their own making at all… They take on our Karma to incarnate into the flesh and to help humanity. They have no personal interests in being here at all.
Notice that, culture-bound mythology aside, these are beautiful sentiments and worth making, and are good representations of what is truly sacred and holy, and worth our devotion. They don’t require supernatural wrappings. We should strive to be like that, harmless, helpful, and interests aligned to helping.
But who is worthy of that role? Maybe no one. But if someone must play that role so that we can practice pure devotion, pure love, and in that practice we become nobler, higher, more aware of the Galaxies within us, and our connection to each other, then, it serves a natural purpose for a function built into the human body, so long as we understand it as a means to an end.

I m just waiting for Amar to poke his nose in this!!!
I m waiting

“I am just correcting some of the erroneous ideas presented by some commenters. For instance he does not claim to be god in human form.”
He sure as hell does in writing. He also does when he allows a crowd to call him a god every day without correcting them.

So here’s what I’m getting form these comments, both everyone here and GSD. If he’s only a guide or a teacher, and he has stated many times that there are other ways to achieve this “Oneness”, and that there is no one to come and get us or take us anywhere, then that means the idea or intent is to get you to realize what the Truth is. Realize the Self, as I remember him saying.
So what is the point of doing anything then? if everyone passes thru the same “gateway” upon death, then everyone goes the same route. So what’s the point of doing anything? Is it to understand the illusion of the creation? Is it to have those inner experiences (doubtful)?
If, for example, you have 2 people, one that meditates trying to find the true “Self”, and another that doesn’t. Both are good, morally fine and live a good honest life. Can someone tell me why the meditator will achieve freedom, and the other won’t? Is there a spiritual switch that gets flicked to the “go” position and the other person doesn’t? What is the point of all this but to satisfy the curiosity of the mind? It seems to sidestep the idea of karmas. Yet recently, GSD said that killing animals have a price to be paid. What’s the price? If karma theory is not what we think it is, then what difference does it make?
Why do we need to do anything?

Osho, 99.9% of his disciples don’t see him in foreign countries asmr certainly don’t get to ask questions. Telling one person to burn the books isn’t denouncing the teachings. Ceasing to sell the books would be.
Stop the cult apologist screeds. It’s old. You’re not being honest.

And Osho,calling you names is not the logical fallacy. My argument isn’t that you’re stupid and a liar. That’s a simple observation.
My argument is that Gurinder cintradicts himself both when hee speaks, and sells a consistent teaching to far more people than ever hear these Q and A sessions and that he does imply, via books that he sells, that he is God.
You’re never going to respond to this, because you can’t. There’s no argument against what I’m saying that makes sense. That’s why you, and your guru, deflect to “oneness” and other concepts when asked real questions.

Jesse wrote: “Telling one person to burn the books isn’t denouncing the teachings. Ceasing to sell the books would be.”
Have to agree with you on that. But I guess if he did that, then he’d have to answer to the millions in India that eat this stuff up. Maybe he wants to but the Dera management doesn’t want him to. The Dera industry/machine has become too big to dismantle. Or he doesn’t want to be the one to do it so abruptly. Maybe he’s setting up his successor to build on it. Who knows. But if he really believes the books are not genuine, stop selling them.

Hi Jesse
You wrote
“Telling one person to burn the books isn’t denouncing the teachings. Ceasing to sell the books would be.”
Truth.

“Telling one person to burn the books isn’t denouncing the teachings. Ceasing to sell the books would be.”
Quite a number of people seem to agree with the above statement. I don’t and I will give my reasons.
1. Not everyone is at the same stage. When a person comes to the path, he wants books and information. Those books are necessary to whet the appetite.
2. Just because it’s in the books doesn’t mean he has to endorse it for the same reason as (1) above. Our whole schooling system does the same. What you are told about atoms at age 11 is then totally changed when you get to university. And finally science says “we don’t actually know the nature of matter; sometimes it behaves like particles, sometimes as waves”
Going by the argument above, the schools should stop teaching about atoms having a nucleus and electrons and scrap the periodic table. They don’t for the same reason as I stated above. That theory serves a purpose at that time and is later refuted.
The same in Sant mat. The beginner would get very confused if he was told about the oneness from the start.
So GSD starts where you are: if you are in duality, he gives duality teachings. When you realise ONENESS, you don’t need to be told, it’s your own experience.
By the way, Sikh scriptures do exactly the same. In many parts it’s duality teachings, then in other verses it makes it clear there is only the ONE.
E.G. “paltu there is only the ONE there is no other”

“God is in every grain of sand, and sings in every cell in our body. And in every star.Has any Saint said otherwise?
But who really can see it and hear?”
– Spence
God is everywhere means he is infinite and without limit. He extends over all of time and space.
Now what does that statement actually mean? Is something is infinite and never ends, it means it has no boundary.
Boundaries are formed at the END of an object. An infinite object cannot have a boundary.
So if it has no boundary, how can it be seen?
The fish lives in water, can it SEE the water?
The water is all around but the fish cannot SEE it because to see the water, it has to get to the boundary, but it cannot.
In the same way, you cannot see an infinite object, no matter how hard you meditate

Hi Osho
You wrote
“you cannot see an infinite object, no matter how hard you meditate.”
I guess you didn’t connect with Brian Ji’s post about calculus.
Every object you see contains an infinite number of discrete points.
All Infinity in the grain of sand
– William Blake

Also Osho
Baba Ji’s personal involvement in one of the largest frauds in India’s financial history absolutely is a matter of character.
If you’re in this to become a better human being, Gurinder offers nothing, if we are to believe either your essay, the myriad published facts and court orders about his immediate family, or his own unwillingness to take public responsibility for his involvement.
In fact it appears worse. Those around him have been corrupted. Your own indifference to fraud reflects a corrupted sentiment as well.
I suggest that anyone truly interested in doing good, and avoiding doing harm stay as far away from RSSB as possible. It now appears to be a corrupting influence.
So, at the end of the day, a lot of noise over a small slippery guy whom you seem to want to represent but aren’t willing to confront.
Osho, don’t use Gurinder as your role model. That’s a very bad idea.
There are so many souls completely corrupted by wealth and excess, that is a waste of time discussing them. It’s common and degrading.
On the other hand, there are those who manage to avoid corruption.
But you don’t seem interested in them. You think good behavior is unimportant. Again, a different value system.

Spence,
Unless I missed something important in the calculus article, it doesn’t change the fact that you cannot reach the end of an infinite object.
Infinite means it has no end. So how can you reach the end?
And you cannot see endless or infinite objects. Please correct me if I misunderstood something in the calculus article that refutes this.

Spence,
The fraud matter is of no interest to me. If it was, I would have raised the question.
An enlightened person is a human being, not a GIHF. “Perfection” as such does not exist.
Jesus overturned the tables – was that an act of perfection? Perfection is a myth.
As far as I know, Gurinder has not been summoned to a court on allegations of corruption or any criminal matter. He has not stood trial. All the rest is conjecture.
Sure, there are reports and investigations but why no trial?
If there is enough evidence to convict, the matter normally goes to trial.
I am not saying that nothing happened. Clearly it did, but he is still walking a Free man.
I don’t judge a man that easily. You must be perfect. I am not.
Jesus, who you quote often, said
“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”
I am not a disciple of Gurinder, I am not even a follower. I don’t meditate or follow the teachings of RSSB. I used to, but not now. I am not protecting “my guru”
I have nothing to gain or lose either way.
However, I also have nothing against him. If it was someone else instead of him, I would take the same stance.
If there are followers of Gurinder who seek perfection in him, they are in trouble, because he doesn’t even claim perfection.
Many people look to him to take care of their soul at the time of death. He says it won’t happen.
Why would he say “I am not coming at the time of death?”
What benefit does he get by making that statement?
A “fraud” would say he IS coming at death, and if He doesn’t come, what will you do, sue him?
I challenge anyone reading this to give me an intelligent answer to that question.
Already the followers believe he has the power to come at death. There are many accounts of the guru coming at death. It would be so easy to say he will come at death.
So now, why would this “corrupt” person not continue with the same teaching, when all it can do is enhance his position.

Thank you Osho for asking important questions and sharing your experience at the Dera.
Then I read all the comments thinking how obviously, even on this blog, there is no “One”. EveryOne with their opinions and egos and criticisms. It would be funny if it wasn’t so nasty, as in “So, at the end of the day, a lot of noise over a small slippery guy whom you seem to want to represent but aren’t willing to confront.” Quite frankly I don’t want to be at “One” with this type of person spewing spite and anger.
Its not easy to have compassion and forgiveness for everyone, never mind loving everyone. The only way to become One with everything is probably when we die and the drop merges with the ocean, whatever that is.

Now this joker has started “burn the books” meme. Hidden agenda in this is to create army of dumb people who shouldn’t question the shady deals of Guru/ Conduct of Guru. After that he will start “burn the court cases against Guru” agenda. Everything that this joker says is scripted to be fool the seekers. This joker sits with the Guru to script the agenda to be fool people.

Hi Jen,
You write
“Then I read all the comments thinking how obviously, even on this blog, there is no “One”. EveryOne with their opinions and egos and criticisms. It would be funny if it wasn’t so nasty,”
Just to clarify the meaning of ONE.
It doesn’t mean to feel at one with everyone.
It means to have the absolute knowledge that only One thing exists.
That ONE isn’t born and doesn’t die,
It is your true nature. You are not the body, or the mind or the soul. All those will change.
The reason you are not the soul, is because individuality cannot coexist with the ONE, as it would then be many,
The japji of the Sikhs is all about the ONE.
Like this guy explains:
https://youtu.be/pTRTtYUONgs

Hi Osho
You see infinitesimal you look up at the stars, when you look into the face of a stranger. Speak less, look more.

Jen,
I know you don’t want to save the world,but if you cannot muster the smallest grain of compassion for the victims, then your anger is misplaced.

Osho, the Guru doesn’t have to be a god.
That he is just human and no Sat Guru is clear and fine so long as he is responsible.
But a theif who corrupts others, and takes away services to the poorest in order to enrich his own family and community is not worthy of comment..

Vinny
I really have no idea what you’re on but whatever it is, it’s probably illegal.
I can only guess that you are actually trying your hardest to make a point.
If you have a logical argument to make, backed up by evidence, I would love to hear it.
At the moment it just comes over like the ramblings of a mad man.
Your time might be better spent taking an English grammar class and maybe politeness 101

“I suppose one could say that Hitler didn’t betray his self.”
“You are right. He did not. But millions of Germans did betray their selves. That was the tragedy. Not that one man had the courage to be evil. But that millions had not the courage to be good.
John Fowles, The Magus

Osho, I think you quoted Jesus out of context when he overturned the shell companies making their home in the Lord’s house
and said unto them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called the house of prayer,’ but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
Matthew 21:13

If you’re in this to become a better human being, Gurinder offers nothing, if we are to believe either your essay, the myriad published facts and court orders about his immediate family, or his own unwillingness to take public responsibility for his involvement.

What would you have GSD do? A tearful admission of complicity?
Perhaps something more nuanced… “I was not involved but I take
responsibility for the actions of family members and others. We will
work to settle the accounts”. Would that satisfy you or the other
conspiracy theorists about his direct personal involvement or even
suspicion he was “da mastermind”?
No, I doubt it. It would simply elevate the rhetoric that he was hiding
his “real role”. He’d be tainted forever as yet another “low-life, greedy,
scumbag, corrupt Guru” like so many before. A thousand questions from
the curious, from predators circling in for the kill, would follow. Innocent
and guilty alike would be hounded for comment, for dirt to feed private
theories.
Oh, wait, how careless of me… the HC ruling cinched it. The Dhillon family is
civilly liable. GSD is personally implicated. It’s a pattern of moral bankruptcy
too… tainted meds, sale of a charitable hospital, closure of a free school.
Yep, there’s unassailable proof. GSD hadda know even if he’s not up to his
neck in it. Only the blind fail to see the obvious and natter on about legal
proof. Sigh… I guess there’s nothing more to convince mindless zombies
of his guilt until criminal charges come down.
Oops, I forget CofC pundits though have their third eyes open, they can spot
the corrupt, the greedy, the guilty unerringly. They even have sermons for GSD’s
redemption at the ready, a beatific vision of his re-entry into the good graces
of tearfully rejoicing brothers and sisters.
All he needs to his confess, do his time for the crime, go on “Guru probation”
for a while. and… all will be forgiven. That is, of course, contingent on good
behavior, manifest contrition, divesting all trappings of wealth, and reporting
weekly to the CofC “Board of Guruly Rectitude” for a period of no less than ten
years. Any retrogression will result in dismissal from the gaddi and abdication to
a morally acceptable successor. The CofC “Council of the Worthy” will make
that determination.
GSD is wise to keep silent and let the courts rule. It’s a helluva lot safer than the
CofC rabble in the gallery. Gawd… is that a noose one of ’em is waving.

Everywhere, every place and in every instance every RSSB guru, in particular Charan Singh, ( and Gurinder) state the true or real guru is the SHABD. They also emphasise if you don’t “take the medicine”, don’t expect to make any progress. I.E. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. They personify the SHABD because most people need to identify with something tangible and grapple with the intangible. Most people who base their belief systems on faith alone and not through intelligent analysis are still in kindergarten. The Sant Mat teachings take on different meanings as you progress in your experiences and understanding of the so called path. Human Being. HUM and BE. If you actually take the time out to listen inside the beautiful hum of creation then you will be moved!

“You are right. He did not. But millions of Germans did betray their selves. That was the tragedy. Not that one man had the courage to be evil. But that millions had not the courage to be good.

Ah, yes. Those who weren’t there wax lyrical about
“guilty bystanders”. But, a desire to go on breathing is
pretty damn universal in murderous tyrannies.
Courage can be to go on begging for it to come even
when it doesn’t. Who knows what secrets live in the hearts
of guilty bystanders.
“Our secret Germany is alive” –Klaus v. Stauffenberg

Osho
You are beating your head on a brick wall here. I do not profess to “get it” but I think I understand what you are saying. The Buddhist concept of emptiness. My understanding of the ONE is: Nothing arises dependently. There is no independent origination. Therefore in the arising of things (matter, life, whatever,) there is oneness. Also, as I have stated before, if in fact there be infinity, then no matter where YOU are placed, or anything else for that matter, you must always be at the centre, which radiates out oneness. EVERYTHING! It is difficult to ignore or overide criticism.
Really Sant Mat is for the Indian culture. Being born into a certain culture, and culture, gives you a resonance with the DNA memories of that culture. A sort of innate understanding of its “frequencies”. The souls incarnating now, ( if reincarnation does in fact occur – I believe so, but it is not proven) are certainly not coming in at the same level as in ancient times. ( Meaning lower now).The majority need a tangible guru to look up to, to advise, to instruct. That is the level they are at. To digress a bit, how many people these days in the 21st century, really believe that Jesus existed; believe in a virgin birth; believe a dead man came back to life after being dead for 3 days? The Christ story is told again and again in many symbolic faiths.
Now this is a bit mean, what I am about to write, and a judgement. When I first became a “satsangi” 30 years ago, and for my first and only visit to the Dera, I saw broken people, ex druggies, ex drinkers, ex this, ex that, myself included, in fact pretty much the dregs of western society all there replacing their crutches or props and addictions with another – A new Master to take control!
Not one of you in the comments above mentioned the SHABD.

Dungeness, there is nothing wrong sarcasm, but usually sarcasm, if it’s good, makes some obvious point. Otherwise it isn’t sarcasm, just snarkiness.
So what actually is your point?

Spence you say: “…if you cannot muster the smallest grain of compassion for the victims…”
Maybe you, the perfect one, can muster compassion for the victims. I’m not all knowing and filled with self righteousness as you are. I am also a victim and do have compassion for others but am just a simple person struggling along doing the best I can.

Hi Osho
You asked
“Why would he say “I am not coming at the time of death?”
What benefit does he get by making that statement?”
Let’s himself off the hook. Typical of a fraud.

Hi Osho
You wrote
“Infinite means it has no end. So how can you reach the end?”
Nope. You didn’t get the Calculus thing. Every discreet moment of time, every fixed quantity whose differentials represent an infinite number of discreet parts. And every particle, every drop is one of an infinite series that sums to an integral total.
We are meant to see these things as Newton did, as Blake did, as Rumi and Shams did, who then described them, each in their own way.

All this scandal now in RS with GSD and all the changes the way its all being handles now the lack of continuity and harmony. Is this what M Charan Singh was aware of a direction for the path that RS has come on now and the twists and turns it was going to make centuries of work beset in illusions lost hopes and material devastation involving his appointed successor when he appointed GSD to run this huge enormous sangat? Its grown globally into a massive religion…and the teachings are wholesome…but now its on fire folks. …for mostly the newer initiates. Delusion and broken trust and hearts.
Was this a destiny and karma that is being lived now by us all?
Did GSD not follow orders ?
Are we not understanding something and its causing anger?
What and how did this peaceful pure sant mat teachings and loving sangats over the centuries with bright eyed innocent students full of love and devotion get to feeling deceived.
What has gone wrong here?
Where is everyone going from here?.
Chy

Jen, none of us are victims just getting by unless we are helping some other person. Without that, we are wasting space and victimizing others.
But what is that help?
It could be a Zen master sharing her insights in the spirit of helping.
It could be a hospital consultant trying to help a famous surgeon make fewer lethal errors.
It could be a young girl at the local burger King spending her own time to help a struggling colleague figure out the soft serve machine.
But we all need to help each other every day.
That’s our salvation. That’s our way up and out.
Shabd is the road, but this idea that we can’t help others until we first have helped ourselves is bullshit.
The two are one and the same.
The woman gave two cents…. It was all she had.

Hi Osho
You asked
“Why would he say “I am not coming at the time of death?”
What benefit does he get by making that statement?”
Let’s himself off the hook. Typical of a fraud.

I don’t understand your answer. Which hook?
He already has lots of people with accounts of the guru coming at death.
That’s more than enough evidence for him to continue to say that he comes at death.
Nobody would challenge him on that. Rather they can’t understand it when he says he is not coming.
I am asking why a “fraud” would make his own life harder?
People already believe he is coming at death. A “fraud” would not say he is not coming. He has nothing to gain by saying that.

Dungeness, there is nothing wrong sarcasm, but usually sarcasm, if it’s good, makes some obvious point. Otherwise it isn’t sarcasm, just snarkiness.
So what actually is your point?

Which? Your off-thread comment about Hitler” Or the other one in
response to your tiresome homilies about GSD’s moral bankruptcy?

Spence,
I am bit a Bible expert, but I have read a little of it.
Did Jesus not say he comes to break the old law of “an eye for an eye”?
And did he not restore the centurian’s ear that a zealous Simon cut off with his sword?
And did he not say ” those who live by the sword, perish by the sword?
Did he not say “judge not, that thou be not judged”
And of course the “let him who is without sin…….”
So then, why are you so quick to judge, when even no court of law has summoned him?
Am I missing something here?

Only when you resonate with the “Shabd” ( call it what you will, the oneness – for it is nameless) can you truly see things for what they are.
A blade of grass, is a blade of grass made up of various aggregates, to become, to exist in this realm!. Dependent in order to arise.
I am an animator in human form. My MASTERS ( female cats have the same kinds of animators I have, just confined into their form. When the Mahayana Buddhists talk of loving every being as though they were your past mother, then you become the mother of love and that love fills you with the greatest joy and happiness!

Spence, can you clarify? Today you’re saying GSD is a fraud, but weeks ago you mentioned having fireside chats with GSD (and Charan Singh) within. If GSD is a fraud, how can he project to you within? I’m not trying to defend GSD here or call you out in any way, I’m just trying to understand how both could be possible, when they seem to contradict.

The above comment of mine should read: .”I am not a Bible expert but I have read a little of it ”

Osho
You wrote
” no court of law has summoned him?”
The High Court has ordered him, by name, to pay his delinquent bills. We’re beyond the question stage, the judgment stage and are now at the order stage and on the verge of the contempt stage.
That is all he is responsible for.
But to lie about it merely compounds the problem.
We are all here to help. But a fraud hides in the dark and will not come forth, even knowing his brothers and sisters are compassionate.
Because it requires acknowledging one’s own shortcomings. That is a risk an honest man or woman takes as part of being a human being. Painful, yes. But it is a matter of duty.
So if you wish to cite Christ, we have in his example a true teacher who lived in poverty and as a matter of duty and love for God, took on the sins of his followers.
In Gurinder you have an individual caught up in big money, hundreds of millions in over – leveraged loans to buy even more property, who cannot acknowledge his own shortcomings and pay his own immense debts. And then lies to the Sangat about it.
They are on opposite sides of the scale.

Fairy–
“Not one of you in the comments above mentioned the SHABD.”
Osho–
“So He says ‘you have to meditate’ because the disciples are already of the opinion that in order to realise God they have to DO something so he gives them something to do.”
Does GSD speak about SHABD anymore or just the ONE? I simply can’t believe he’d minimize the practice of meditation, unless Sant Mat is no longer Sant Mat, he’s trying to trick disciples with reverse psychology, or he’s totally messing with Osho’s head.

Hi Osho
You asked
“I am asking why a “fraud” would make his own life harder?”
That’s what frauds do.
They try to make life simple for themselves by making life harder on everyone else.
It’s the basic fraud formula.

“At one point, I said “but YOU say ……….” and he interrupted me. “No, it’s not what I say. I am nobody to say anything. Just see what the previous gurus said and what the scriptures say.” He also said “Please, let’s be clear. I cannot erase your karmas, I cannot do anything for you. I can only guide you and the rest is up to you. The guru is only a guide and a teacher.” Clearly he doesn’t claim to be a “perfect living master” with all the notions that go with that title.
Then Gurinder should quit his role as RSSB guru.
The previous gurus did say that a portion of the seeker’s karma is taken on by the guru at initiation.
Such “karma taking” was a feature Sawan Singh’s relationship with his guru, Jaimal Singh.
The Kirpal line of gurus still upholds “karma taking” as a key part of RS theology. They didn’t project the idea out of thin air; it’s what the early gurus of RS explicitly taught.
To my knowledge, Charan Singh never gainsayed this. Never said “the guru can’t do anything for you.”
If Gurinder wants to say that he’s just a “guide,” I have to wonder just what he thinks his guidance is? As far as I can tell from what people report of his bon mots, Gurinder doesn’t seem to believe in anything. He certainly doesn’t believe in traditional sant mat if he maintains that the guru “can’t do anything,” and yet he wears white and pretends to be a sant mat satguru.
Some might say that Charan downplayed the guru concept too, but Charan clearly believed that he was somehow an agent and conduit of Sawan Singh’s divine power. Gurinder though seems to have gone full Krishnamurti on the sangat. Actually that’s not true. Gurinder is going half-Krishnamurti. Pretending to uphold sant mat, demanding devotion, and then preaching that there really never was a Path of the Masters, and calling those who are devoted to him fools.

“But I guess if he did that, then he’d have to answer to the millions in India that eat this stuff up. Maybe he wants to but the Dera management doesn’t want him to. The Dera industry/machine has become too big to dismantle.”
It wouldn’t be the first time a guru stepped down.
He’s rich and could leave any time he wants and live comfortably. The only thing holding him back is the addiction to power.

“Not everyone is at the same stage. When a person comes to the path, he wants books and information. Those books are necessary to whet the appetite. ”
“So GSD starts where you are: if you are in duality, he gives duality teachings. When you realise ONENESS, you don’t need to be told, it’s your own experience.”
This is just so irrational and embarrassing. You put so many words into that idiot gurus mouth and make so many justifications that wouldn’t pass the scrutiny of a 3 year old.
You’re unintentionally saying that Indians are beginners who are too dumb to get your “oneness” theory. Because the difference in teachings isn’t based on experience. It’s based on geography and race essentially.
And it’s not just in the books, either. Anyone who has been to the huge dera satsangs knows that they’re very different than the ones given in the west.
You don’t have any good explanations. You have bad excuses. Please stop.

With the financial matters, why so much interest?
There is a saying:
“Jo karangi so bharangi, tu kaun bhai udhaas? ”
The one who does (right or wrong) will reap the fruit of his Action, why are you so sad (concerned)?
When he says “meditate” nobody listens.
The slightest sign of a scandal, and everyone is all ears.
Some people are rubbing their hands in glee, they just can’t wait for him to get what he deserves.
I can understand this if you hate him, but not if you were a follower

Osho, seriously consider what you’re saying here, which is that there’s radha soami for the plebs like all us exers and believers in that stupid old 1.0 sant mat, and then there’s radha soami for the super initiated who’ve “realized” oneness, and that so far literally only you and this guru and a few other highly advanced souls know it.
He’s not saying this oneness stuff to anyone else. He’s selling books that contradict it. And he’s saying contradictory things to millions upon millions of people. So it’s just you and Gurinder who are in on this oneness stuff. You, and a masterful talker and likely conman who has amassed tens of millions through fraud just happen to have achieved this level of understanding of spirituality that nobody else has.
Do you think you and Gurinder are truly bhai bhai bros on this oneness thing? Is that really it? You’re cool with him, and you’re on his level?
Or is it more likely that just as he tells hundreds of others whatever they want to hear from his guru pulpit, he’s probably telling you what you want to hear too? And maybe just as hundreds of others are lulled by his charm that gets enhanced simply by having confidence and standing on a stage, you’re being seduced by a good talker as well?
Because I’m just really struggling to believe in this “y’all just don’t GET IT like me and my homeboy gurinder do” thing that you’re presenting.

Osho: “Why would he say “I am not coming at the time of death?”
Osho: What benefit does he get by making that statement?”
Spence: Let’s himself off the hook. Typical of a fraud.

Spence. I don’t pretend to fathom why you are personalizing these
attacks on GSD. But, his statement is typical of all mystics who stress
the real master is inside you. That’s the one who is always with you and
is there to guide you at death.
The satsangi, trapped in external forms, wants to run after the physical
master with an assurance GIHF will hop on the astral jet stream to rescue
him at the last moment. GSD, I believe, wants to dissuade him from that
fairy tale. The outer master only points you in the right direction and gives
you some busy work to occupy the mind until you succeed within. The goal
is to befriend and see the inner master.

Not that it matters much Spence as this is not the core of the argument but where is stated in the King James Bible that Christ ever said or suggest that he “took on the sins of his followers” as you wrote?
By the way:
In that red letter version the amount of words attributed to Christ is not more than a couple of A4’s …. and …see how many books were needed to explain what he said, even today they go on writing. He never said a word to his audience about to read the works of the scribes etc to understand what he said. According him his words speak for themselves.

Anami,
There is no point setting aside time to do daily meditation, if the rest of the time a person is of poor conduct. I am of the opinion a person should aspire to be the best they can be every second of their present time. Always striving to be mindful and careful. In tune with the infinite! In tune with life, joy and love. To vibrate with a frequency that promotes these aspirations. If some people need a human Master, then good on them. If they don’t, good on them too .
It is just time all the lies and analogies were changed to facts.
Spence.
Do you really believe that Christ existed? Do you really believe the New Testament stories those mind controlling men wrote hundreds of years after the supposed Christ and his contemporaries had long passed?
They are all “fairy” stories. If you believe in the literal sayings of the “good book” – the bible, then you must believe that I am the fairy I say I am!
I still have a desire to reside one day in Anami Lok, or Sukhavati, the Pure Lands of Jambudvala (?) with my darling little cats for ever and ever going on and on. That is the fairy-angel in me. It’s all in my mind and , ” You know nothing, ” John Snow!

Osho
You wrote
” no court of law has summoned him?”
The High Court has ordered him, by name, to pay his delinquent bills. We’re beyond the question stage, the judgment stage and are now at the order stage and on the verge of the contempt stage.
– Spence
Has he appeared in a court of law, charged with any criminal offence?
The answer is NO.
You are obviously not familiar with how courts work in regard to financial matters such as this.
I will give you a personal example. I had a court verdict against me (well my company to be exact). Then a bailiff came to a previous address which was also the company registered address.
The owner of the property asked me to resolve this otherwise the bailiffs were threatening to still his locks.
I called the bailiff company And met the bailiff an hour later. I paid the bill which was £1500 even though I was given no firm proof it was my bill.
I called the court the next day and realised it was all a mistake. They had the wrong company, but that did not stop the court making a judgement against my company, and the bailiff collected from me personally. It took me 6 months and a 3 hour drive and around 20 hours on the phone to finally get the case reopened and recover my money.
So having a judgement against you is not proof of any guilt or criminal offence.
It is not even proof of money owed, only alleged.
Also the court order is that money owed to malvinder and Shivinder should be paid to the court instead of to them. Because they claim he owes them money.
Basically the court does not trust malvinder or Shivinder to pay the money if Gurinder paid them directly, so the order says “pay the court instead”
It’s not a criminal conviction or such a big deal as you make out. It’s not even proof of any wrong doing. Yet you act as if he is a convicted criminal.
Show me a single court judgement that names him as a criminal.
If you can’t then you have no right to call him a criminal either.

Spence, I referred to Jesus and specifically asked about his views on forgiveness and accusing others.
I quote below what I asked:

And did he not restore the centurian’s ear that a zealous Simon cut off with his sword?
And did he not say ” those who live by the sword, perish by the sword?
Did he not say “judge not, that thou be not judged”
And of course the “let him who is without sin…….”
So then, why are you so quick to judge,

Jesus told Simon to forgive 7 times.
When Simon said “7 times?”
He said, “no, I say 77 times”
You haven’t forgiven even once but have already convicted him and sent him to jail and thrown away the key

The “one”.
Jen you hit a point that opens up my sort of place now…
In crowds or just thinking of life humanity many things here…I often just feel neutral. I dont feel love or anger just BEING just AWARE of my surroundings say in a crowd. I speak with someone and dont feel any emotions that linger just a neutral pleasant moment. (Road rage is not a loving compassionate place) we all get that one…
Love is an unusual emotion. Its often tied to and really is just something that has triggered dopamine in our brains…the excitement of the old
“Masters coming. See look there he is and OH MY GOD he just SMILED at me”
The childlike excitement that becomes tears of joy and love…. Then it slowly returns to a normal thinking state of mind…
We cannot feel this emotion everytime we see a human we do not feel deep love everytime we interact with absolutely everyone. .although it seemed so in observations of m. Charan Singh…but back to everyday folks , for people we do not feel this every interaction …especially if they do something that annoys us. The dopamine is deactivated.
ONENESS and universal love is the highest frequency…
My opinion is that at the highest frequency when weve merged in with our creative power of course after leaving all the list of “bodies”…we will feel and then only know what being ONE feels like.
Love word may not exist…..
Just energy.
Chy

Anami, Thank you for your comments.
Yes he does talk about the Shabd. And he says you must meditate. And no he is not messing with my head.
He was actually very clear on Sunday.
He answers people according to where they are. It is inappropriate to speak about the ONENESS when the person is steeped in duality. It will only confuse him.
I agree with him, I just never looked at it that way before. Nobody can understand the ONENESS just by hearing about it a few times. It takes a level of commitment to realise the nature of ONENESS. It’s not just a theory. It’s a realisation that changes your whole perception

Hi Osho
You asked
“I am asking why a “fraud” would make his own life harder?”
That’s what frauds do.
They try to make life simple for themselves by making life harder on everyone else.
It’s the basic fraud formula.

Spence please read what you just wrote.
Because by saying he is not coming at death makes his life Harder because he has to deal with all the frustration of people who want the easy solution.
You are confirming my point: only a genuine person will make that statement. The fraud will continue with the promise that he will come at death.

Then Gurinder should quit his role as RSSB guru.
The previous gurus did say that a portion of the seeker’s karma is taken on by the guru at initiation.
Such “karma taking” was a feature Sawan Singh’s relationship with his guru, Jaimal Singh.
The Kirpal line of gurus still upholds “karma taking” as a key part of RS theology. They didn’t project the idea out of thin air; it’s what the early gurus of RS explicitly taught.
To my knowledge, Charan Singh never gainsayed this. Never said “the guru can’t do anything for you.”
– j
Hi j,
Your comments confirm the pint I was making to Spence. Making those statements cannot be the actions of a “fraud”
A fraud would continue to uphold the claims that he is all powerful and can take karmas etc.
I have met many gurus in my time and they revel in the power they have over people who believe they have special powers.
They would NEVER deny having those powers. Gurinder denied having them and claims to be a human being.
Clearly not the way a fraud would behave.

Enjoyed reading it.
Every sentence from HIM, I felt in HIS own voice vibrating in my ears. simply amazing.
I felt as I was sitting there in audience and was attending this dialogue b/w HIM and Osho.
Thanks again, Osho and Brian for sharing the updates of conversation with HIM.
Those of us who are under the grip of mind,
could not even have any clarity of their own path,
and go where the wind blows.
Babaji has actually taken uncountable sins on His shoulders, because HE can.
In the process, HE has put HIS own dignity at stake, the beings worth nothing to humanity calls HIM fraud, that’s what Masters allow and accept.
Study the ranbaxy chapter thoroughly and anyone can understand the decade long misdeeds by the singh brothers, as early as reported since 2004.
Getting them out of business was actually inevitable, but processing it was difficult. It happened, for the good, for them and for all.
HE promoted the shift of leadership, and under the hands of Sun it’s back in business.
Just a couple days back it’s reported that Sun Pharam’s consolidated financial reports are going to be in bigger profits due to Ranbaxy’s sales picking up again.
Why do we take it on discount when some people like Phil from UK clearly mentioned the huge sum of money. Nobody is even remotely interested in investigating the inner workings of the Masters.
Perfect living master is the One who has ascended to Sachkhand, i.e. perfected the Spiritual Quest of Soul. – not the body. We consider and ask HIM w.r.t body and HE denies, perfectly.
Except HIM no one is here who is perfect.

Jesse, He says the ONENESS thing to others too, not just to me.
He is very clear in his position. However just hearings things second hand on here is not the same as being there and hearing it yourself.

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
“When he says “meditate” nobody listens.”
Aren’t you being quite hard on the Sangat?
Have you not met the true Saints sitting at the back of the auditorium?

Hi Um
24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
1 Peter 2:24
The quotes are references to Isaiah, who predicted a savior would come, and is a reference to the old Judaic tradition of the sacrificial goat. The scapegoat.

Entire blog posted by :
J 10:29pm august 13
This is exactly what Im driving at….
So if babaji would put videos transcripts of his talks…all complete non edited so EVERYONE can play as desired and replay and not just share himself with a select few and an wealthy inner circle of “managers” referred to as
Reps. These folks have recorded information but are told no doubt to keep it from “us” ..these are not the same as the old school ones overall.
Are we just donation plate dupes for an echelon of managers?
If secrecy goes away then we can understand the differences in gurinder today vs. The other masters and possibly answer more questions.
Perhaps this openness can go 2 ways.
More devotees or less devotees.
Is babaji able to take that risk?.
Thank you Osho!! for sharing babajis talks with you…you presented it very well.
In all fairness to you though again now he needs to talk to the people not use you for a spokesman or anyone else…or soon you will have the job running RS…dont laugh stranger things have happened….
Chy

What follows below really explains what is probably going on..and it is based Faqir Chands findings which Hines has explored to some extent…..
Religare, Gurinder, and Beas Satsang, (Part Two.)
Ref Thoughts, and Visions Blog 2010
The Bloggers comments on the two articles by Brian Hines…………….
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2010/04/the-big-money-surrounding-radha-soami-satsang-beas
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2010/04/rssbs-ties-to-religare-mix-money-and-spirituality
Sometime after my initiation into the Radhasoami Satsang Beas, or RSSB someone said to be an English teacher who worked in Spain came out with a claim. He revealed that Gurinder (shortly before Charan passed on) had done some kind of business “mistake,” but the Dera Management sent a message insisting that he was a Perfect Master. Hence, he could do no wrong. The English teacher then asked me what sort of power we were dealing with? This was somewhat disturbing at the time as I did have some doubts about Gurinder which unfortunately are now bourne out by the revelations at Brian Hines Blog.
Indeed, when he became the new Satguru for RSSB he reportedly asked a certain question a few times. “How do you know that I am not a fraud?” My Satsangi, and Non-Satsangi friends found that amusing..
Another “red flag” was raised. When I was with friends at a home Satsang in which there was mention about the construction for a runway of sorts at Haynes Park so that Gurinder could land his aircraft! However, this came to nothing….probably due to the bureaucratic local planning authorities!! Admitedly, I did not think much of this…and everyone seemed to regard it as amusing. But is a “runway” a best way of using money….possbily money which originated from the Satsang itself…?
The question which I am concerned here is this. Does it all matter? In one sense, it does as revealed in Brian Hines two articles. But it must be remembered that the physical Master like many incarnations in India is seen as the physical manifestation of God. What I present here are three ways of looking at this subject with an open mind. Admitedly, I am a bit of a Radhasoami apologist because I feel there is more than meets the eye ….
KEY CLAIM I.
Whether Gurinder is perfect, or not probably does not necessarily matter as the following extract reveals, and is believed to have been said by Sawan Singh..
“….If the Guru himself has not reached Satlok, but his Guru is perfect or, like Swami Ji Maharaj, has come straight from Anami(the Nameless Region, the “highest” of all Regions),he will take his disciples up to the stage he has attained himself, and beyond that his Guru, or his Gurus Guru, or Swami Ji Maharaj Himself will take them. There should be no worry about this.”
Ref With the Three Masters, by Munshi Ram page 68, 2001 edition (minor editing)
But the question is this? Why should an “imperfect” Master exist? The answer may be that the Mauj (or Divine Will) of God wants to “wind up” RSSB for reasons best known to Itself. Indeed, the whole organization has become absurdly big, and “bloated”. It does need to radically reduce its size. Ideally, Gurinder should step down from his position of Master, and possibly have set up a number of “Satgurus” who would be elected by advanced Satsangis. Such spiritual elections have already notably happened in Dayalbagh. However, this is unlikely to happen unless there is a serious power struggle at the top….
Furthermore, many people have complained that nothing is experienced in meditation after many years of practice. What is required is a database on which to draw upon made up of anonymous Satsangis who could give attempted descriptions of their experiences. This could act as an “encouragement”.
KEY CLAIM II.
In RSSB the the physical Satguru is meant to be omnisicient….but there is plenty of evidence on the contrary though a disciple would simply regard this as as test of faith, and/or come out with some kind of rationalization……
……..Just after Maharaj Charan Singh former head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas died in 1990 a book appeared on him, and his discourses entitled Treasure Beyond Measure. In it he discussed his own experiences about the utter suprise that he was appointed Sant Satguru in 1951 by the previous deceased incumbent Maharaj Jagat Singh Ji. He regarded the whole matter as a cruel trick of fate. To a Satsangi, or devotee this shows his utter humility! He was pretending that he was not a real Master!! However, what perhaps was Maharaj Charan Singh really saying without giving the game away? He was arguably indicating to those “in the know” that he was telling the truth pure, and simple as far as he could understand it at the time.
To understand what follows it is best to examine a mystic called Faqir Chand. He, like Maharaj Charan Singh was regarded as a much respected teacher of shabd yoga. But Chand claimed that though he was regarded as the physical manifestation of God he was not omniscient. He did not know anything about the miracles that his devotees expressed to him in which his Radiant Form would appear in the outer, or inner worlds of matter, or spirit. He found this same unawareness with other masters of the Shabd Yoga tradition, and this is borne out by evidence. He concluded that it was the BELIEF AND FAITH of the devotees which generated the phenomena of inner visions, and miracles due to their devotional love for him. However, this did not imply necessarily that they were merely hallucinations, but in many, perhaps most cases that it was their Higher Self (ie ones Personal God) which appeared in a Radiant Form that looked like him! Thus, Maharaj Charan Singh may be indicating the “truth” indirectly of the above phenomenon. It should be added that for the Chandian Effect to be “genuine” in the guru world one, or more of a line of Masters should be bona fide in the spiritual sense.
A rather odd thing occured in connection with myself. This is not a meditation experience per se but happened quite naturally, and spontaneously as I was walking. An image of Gurinder Singh appeared in the area of my Third Eye in a “circle” shape. He was dressed with his turban, and a white suit….the one which I wore at initiation back in 1993! The image changed but with the same suit. Perhaps this “mind trick” was suggesting in a crude manner that the Master was myself which is rediculous! However, my present Lower Self entangled in mind, and matter is ofcourse NOT the same as my pure Higher Self which is what Chand was really on about. But it was an odd “mind trick”.
However, I do believe rightly, or wrongly that “God-Realised” Masters exist who are to a high degree “omniscient”. Yet, most are probably not. Moreover, I suspect that Gurinder(or should I say Babaji?) probably fits into the “non-omniscient” catergory. It may well be that this process of unfoldment (ie.a degree(s) of “omniscience”) may be “gradually” developed either before, or after a person becomes a Master. This is a big subject, and appears to have something to do with the mechanics of higher conciousness.
KEY CLAIM III.
Depending on ones sensitivity when I have attended Satsang at Southall there is an intense concentration of the subtle energies of higher conciousness. This awareness I believe has been increased after my experiences with Sant Harjit Singh. What is significant is that this “sea” of higher energies does NOT come from the Satsangis alone. In other words, it may well have a divine source, or sources. I recall feeling this Power descending from the ceiling of the Satsang Hall in a most gentle, and spontaneous manner. Sometimes ofcourse, one can see a white glow in some of the Satsangis themselves which is extremely subtle.
When I leave the Southall Satsang this higher energy of conciousness can be experienced in the wonderful park nearby. I also recall Sant Harjit Singhs energy not only in his house but also outside…and beyond ofcourse. This is a matter of personal experience, and I cannot prove it unfortunately…
Naturally enough, critics would say that the above is experienced in places like football matches, and pop music festivals…when the atmosphere becomes electric!! However, what I experience (along with many others) is something far more than this. It is A POWER unlike anything of this world…
In other words, RSSB is still a living faith par excellence………………..

Hi Dungeness
When you start to hallucinate seeing Gurinder change into Maharaji, as perfectly real and detailed, as Gurinder was, as I have, the difference between inner and outer saints becomes arbitrary.

“A fraud would continue to uphold the claims that he is all powerful and can take karmas etc.”
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not arguing that there is such a thing as satgurus who can take on karma, join people to the sound current, are “perfect masters” who are literally God in Human Form. There may be such masters, but I don’t claim to know if there are.
But Gurinder Singh is a guru in line of gurus that make such claims. Therefore, if he says he doesn’t have such attributes and powers, then what exactly is Gurinder’s purpose as “guru” of RSSB?
Gurinder says he’s a “guide.” Again, a guide to what? What exactly is the purpose of the path, and where is it going? What is the need for an RSSB guru when the guru is effectively saying he has nothing to give us, nothing to teach us, and we’re all completely on our own?
Does Gurinder believe in God? Does he believe in an afterlife? What does he believe meditation is supposed to do for us? These are fundamental issues that are at the heart of sant mat, and yet this guru doesn’t seem to offer answers to these questions. Instead, he seems to think that these basics of sant mat are silly.
I think if Gurinder were truly humble, he’d step down. Instead, he wants to have it both ways. He wants to play the sat guru and enjoy all the wealth and pomp of that position. But when his followers call upon him for answers, Gurinder has a perverse habit of calling them nitwits for believing in sant mat, i.e., “what the books say.”
What is the point of following a guru, spending hours a day meditating on a guru, who says he’s not a guru at all?
What’s the point of devoting one’s life to a Path when the chief exponent of that Path as much as says there is no Path?
This is all just one one of looking at it, of course. I’m sure lots of people look at Gurinder, and Charan, and think they’re examples of wonderfully humble men who exemplify what a genuinely true Guru should be.
But I think it’s equally legit to conclude they were 2 men who were thrust by family fate into make the best of a bad situation. Instead of being truly honest, they made a compromise of the Path and of their mission as gurus.
In either case, I leave a standing question: what does Gurinder Singh say is the purpose of sant mat?

Hi Osho
When the high court ordered Gurinder et al to pay them directly, they took Malvinder and Shivinder off the hook for that responsibility, placing it on Gurinder et al shoulders, by name. They had already determined liability. That’s how the high court works.
They could have made a mistake, of course. But their order came after their legal due diligence.and if they erred it was only in presuming all those hundreds of millions of dollars in loans to Gurinder et al have legal standing.
As for forgiveness, I’m not sure you understand what that means.
There is no question of forgiveness. The issue is transparency, acknowledgment, honesty. Then automatically, all things are forgiven. Even forgotten.
Do you forgive the Sangat for the crimes of ignorance you accuse them of in nearly every post?
Why are the rich and powerful admired, and always the poor and meek criticised? That is a character flaw among many. Moths drawn to a flame of destruction, so that they lose the capacity to enjoy the power and grace of a child.
Do you accept that you yourself might be wrong?
Then welcome to the club.
Information should not be used by you to prove you are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
We are all learning every day.
And if the courts and journalists come out with new facts, then our views will change with them. Just as they already have.
But to avoid acknowledging facts because they are unpleasant isn’t honest. To get angry with someone personally for stating a painful truth is not rational.
As for Gurinder, and each of us, we should all pay our bills and not make excuses. We should all be honest, especially about our shortcomings and difficulties, even Gurinder. And that is so that we can help each other out of the pit, rather then get angry with the person throwing the rope down to us.
Every day we have an opportunity to step forward into the light, or backwards into the shadow.
These are not complicated things. They become complicated when we try to make excuses for anyone. That is the corrupting influence of a bad leader, but the responsibility always rests on our shoulders.

ONENESS and universal love is the highest frequency…
My opinion is that at the highest frequency when weve merged in with our creative power of course after leaving all the list of “bodies”…we will feel and then only know what being ONE feels like.
Love word may not exist…..
Just energy.
. – Chy
ONENESS is a non-duality state.
It’s not in the future
There is no “when”
It’s already the case right now.
Enlightenment is not a future event.
It’s when you realise that only the ONE is and always was. No separation.
No individual, no “I” no Ego.
No person gets there.

Oh, okay. Then GSD isn’t changing the teachings so much as offering an angle. No conflict there, and it could help disciples carry on in the face of frustration–days, months, years and decades without apparent progress, because the process is more like solving the hardest puzzle ever than punching a time clock. There’s nothing radical in that. How many times did Maharaj Ji say to approach meditation with love and devotion and not mechanically? Getting into the right space takes everything, it seems, 24/7, unlike switching on the TV for a while. We’re PhD students, not day laborers.
I don’t see anything wrong with Baba Ji saying he’s only a guide and a teacher either. It’s completely traditional. I’ll go to Spiritual Gems again, because it’s at my fingertips. Sawan Singh said, “The Master does not expect anyone to idolize Him. A boy, reading in primary classes, cannot judge the attainments of a B.A. or M.A. The Master only wants you to look upon Him as your elder brother or friend, to follow His directions, as those of a benefactor, and work hard to go into the higher planes within you. When you go there, you will see for yourself the position and dignity of the Master in those regions.” (Letter 58)
Are there really higher planes or not? That too would depend on perspective. As a child I thought adults had every freedom. Not so, as any adult knows.
Still, the financial mishegaas bothers me, and it bothers me that GSD is so remote to English speakers. Is there a single Baba Ji satsang in English on video, audio or in print???

Thank you Spence… interesting these letters of Peter, I have never read them before. I will take some time to do so.
The point that I wanted to make, was, that none of the claims Christian theologians make and their disciples, are made by Christ himself. I must add to it … not even the claims made by his own disciples.
Yes, Christ was prepared to pay the price for his spiritual preachings and that is what he did but that was not the goal of his coming.
Nowhere, in his own words, he claims that he came to die for the sins or anything else of others. Later they made a savior out of him, that is what the christian scribes and theologians have invented.
If you have an red-letter version of the bible, just for once, read only what christ says … it is revealing.

Ok 3 options ive heard…
For Osho and others to read…
..1st story .at time of death the master appears to save the satsangi from kal (mind) the angel of death…who I saw vision 2 weeks before my brother died.. He was non satsangi…I didnt know he was going to die as well either…no clue…
The angel gave me a message around a death…I didnt get it clearly and dissed it…then it happened…
.
Ok this is the story we heard when m. Charan was ruling.# 1st story we heard and falls into prior sant mat gurus as well.master will come for the soul ..not just “good satsangis”. And appear…
Of course he m. Charan always said that he is not a master . It was always him giving praises to the great master…and backwards as the saints go.
Next story #2….from various satsangis and m. Charan again on another different question answer session…
The master will appear if you are focused and have no attachments pulling on your mind at death time and if you really are in a place to receive the master otherwise HE MAY NOT APPEAR but the satsangis soul will still be taken care of.
GSD. #3.. Some words to the effect that ive heard again 3rd hand is that he says : that he babaji will not appear at ones death….
Now then the finish of 4th and last scenario:
There is no where to go nobody to meet one at death the inner master is our own self god form concept so therefore there is no one to show up at the satsangis death…nobody. Not any master anywhere…
So …GSD is not considered fraud because he honestly says hes not coming.
M. Charan is not a liar either as hes always been of a clean slate to my knowledge sincere and very compassionate…and I have love for him and spent time with him to cultivate that feeling…
So why doesnt someone then tally this up and go with my 4th scenario and decide if thats the answer….?…
Ive seen several elder satsangis since deceased who were very disillusioned because they were near death and had not yet seen the radiant form and felt the reason was that they were bad satsangis in that regard didnt deserve the form of the master. They sure believed though that the at LEAST upon death the master would appear…
And now again its all being presented differently.
These situations are being dumped on Osho to try to convey what babaji has said to him and Osho tries to honestly inform but come on babaji needs to speak as Ive said in 2 other blogs. This is his job with the sangats not to be passed off …now of course I love hearing what Osho says babaji said…please go ahead and share as you feel…its good seva Osho trying to help anyone to understand what you have to share.
If babaji feels its all different now and he sees it a new way….GREAT !! PLEASE SHARE WITH US….were here to grow…
We WILL grow with or without RS teachings. We cannot help but grow and develop and learn new things and help each other…to see new ideas..not dogmas but feelings and thoughts that do open our channels..
Chy

The debate on definition of “oneness” is endless.
In my opinion, many, in particular Spence, Chy and Amar make excellent points on this blog.
Babaji is a spiritual leader, whether by choice or appointment. He and the organization under him should be exemplary of leadership for the the greater goals of humanity in having spirituality as a core. As preached by the group, humanism should be the foundation for any spirituality. Rise above the illnesses of the society.
The 15 Diseases of Leadership, According to Pope Francis | HBR Ascend
https://hbrascend.org/topics/diseases-leadership-pope-francis/

“ONENESS is a non-duality state.”
It’s also an unfalsifiable religious and philosophical theory. Please stop proselytizing.

“Christ was prepared to pay the price for his spiritual preachings and that is what he did but that was not the goal of his coming.”
Christ came to smoke hydroponic weed and chase women.
His highest teaching was “stfu bro. You have no chill and you’re ruining my chances with this stripper.”
When he talked about slapping cheeks, it wasn’t about forgiveness. It was about models twerking on rap video sets for cash.
I know what Jesus REALLY meant because I’m realized whereas you all desire to achieve my status.

Hi Um
The Bible, like all spiritual literature, is a book of inspired writings written in metaphor and poetry by limited, fallable human beings like you and I, to explain transcendent subjective and objective experience. Often that is labeled divine or ‘God’, but those are just cultural references to explain something so beautiful it defies description.
Look up at the stars on a clear night. Consider the immensity of the creation. And the miracle that we exist as part of it, however tiny. Same humbling experience.
Nothing, including the words attributed to Christ, should be taken literally. The issue of substitutionary atonement, that one person can take on the debts of another, can be taken in two ways. In the words attributed to Christ, he says that each must follow the law and pay our debts. But then he says the comforter will come inside us to help us. Paul says this gift of the spirit is the only way to cleanse us of sins, even though Christ took on the sins of the world. So both messages are there. We must take full responsibility for ourselves, but with our weaknesses, that’s impossible. Except that through Christ, or the guru, or teacher,… The Spirit, which is really God, in some subjective internal experience, comes inside us to help us overcome life’s challenges to our own weaknesses.
These are universal themes across religions. We must take responsibility for ourselves, and deep within us is the undefineable force, spirit, source, that through focus and devotion, helps us transcend our weaknesses, even if only momentarily, to gain the power over our own shortcomings, so that we can stop harming ourselves and others.
It’s a beautiful sentiment.
“13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
“15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
“16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
“17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”
“Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”
“19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
“21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4: 13-24

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4: 24
That is the subjective and transcendent experience of Spirit, and the objective facts of objective worldly truth.
Both are worthy of our devotion. And both should be honored.
This is, what I believe, Guru Brian Ji is trying to hammer home in us.

Jesse, neither I do not know what Christ was up to .. he is not around to ask him …. and even than we would not know but that is an other matter.
What I wrote is based upon the words of Christ himself as they appear in red color in the St James version of the bible.
Probably he was like you, reading your words.

Spence, you have not given an answer to any points raised.
Firstly are there any documents about the loans and terms of repayment?
No? Then how do you know they were loans?
I haven’t read the court papers but would be very surprised if the court is shifting the responsibility to Gurinder.
If so, please show me the court order.
Next you ask me

Do you forgive the Sangat for the crimes of ignorance you accuse them of in nearly every post?

Crime? Ignorance is a crime now?
I don’t hold anyone guilty so there is nothing to forgive.
You do, hence my question.

As for forgiveness, I’m not sure you understand what that means.
There is no question of forgiveness. The issue is transparency, acknowledgment, honesty. Then automatically, all things are forgiven. Even forgotten. – Spence

What?
You are reinventing the meaning of forgiveness
Forgiveness his nothing to do with the other person.
It is what you do.
Obviously by making that statement you are saying he does not deserve forgiveness.
FYI he does not even need your forgiveness because he is not even guilty except in your mind.
Like I said before, where is the arrest warrant? He is walking free because there is no criminal case against him.
You need to keep this on perspective. The type of court order you mention is nothing criminal.

Spence, thank you for your elaborate answer.
>>These are universal themes across religions. We must take responsibility for ourselves, and deep within us is the undefineable force, spirit, source, that through focus and devotion, helps us transcend our weaknesses, even if only momentarily, to gain the power over our own shortcomings, so that we can stop harming ourselves and others. << In NATURE Spence, there is no "weakness". Weakness is an cultural invention and as such part of an tale or game. I do understand your words and there is nothing wrong with them as long as one takes the cultural overlay as beong part of nature. There is nothing that can or should be changed for the better, there is not better. We are born like a crow is born, whitness life as a crow and die. >>God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4: 24
That is the subjective and transcendent experience of Spirit, and the objective facts of objective worldly truth. << Charan used to say on many occasions, that he would not have any knowledge of the subject if it was not brought before him. Well Spence, I dear to say that humans would have no knowledge of God if the was not brought before them by significant persons in their cultural environment like parents. These parents and all others have their so called knowledge from hearsay … things they heard from what came to be known as mystics, prophets and the like. These experiences are like dreams, personal. Granma used to say: "Little man, you see the head of a person, you cannot look inside". So we "know" what mystics tell us and for reasons psychologists etc have to find out we believe them on their "word". Having these experiences as described by those who fill the shelves of my book closet must have been impressive no doubt and I guess I would have reacted as they did if it would happen to me. I also understand their urge to spread the word to the world but everybody is responsible for how he feeds himself. So given the words of Charan … if they had not TAUGHT me about god I would have had no knowledge of it and that would be alright as all living beings experience live within the framework they are born. Or … to drink coffee I need not to know about the so called divine. Many years ago whatever I was taught about these things evaporated like an fata morgana and has left me wondering how people ever came to believe in these things.

As for Gurinder, and each of us, we should all pay our bills and not make excuses. We should all be honest, especially about our shortcomings and difficulties, even Gurinder. – Spence

Plenty of people don’t pay their bills.
Not paying bills is not a crime
You are also forgetting who the claim was against. They did not pay and claimed gurinder has their money but it may not even be true.
No loan agreement in place, so how is it a loan?

“The Master does not expect anyone to idolize Him. A boy, reading in primary classes, cannot judge the attainments of a B.A. or M.A. The Master only wants you to look upon Him as your elder brother or friend, to follow His directions, as those of a benefactor, and work hard to go into the higher planes within you. When you go there, you will see for yourself the position and dignity of the Master in those regions.” (SG Letter 58)
This passage is often presented as Sawan saying that the guru is nothing special, just a guide, a friend, your elder brother. But read it closely. What Sawan is ultimately saying here is that ordinary people and unevolved satsangis have no clue as to the immeasurable greatness and majesty of the guru, as this is only revealed to those who reach the higher planes.

J,…
When I go to a bakery I do so because I need a bread.
But when people go to a so called master, what is that they want from him?
Masters what do they DO … DO !!!
Do they bake bread??

Thanks for that, j.
If I had my RS books still I could quote many similar passages from Charan.
It’s pretty conclusive at this point that Gurinder plays the same sort of verbal sleight of hand games as his predecessors, and that he isn’t just traveling the world to tell large crowds of people who often travel long distances to see him how he’s just a normal guy.
When Sawan says he’s a guide, he clarifies that it means in ‘higher regions.” Otherwise what would be the point of calling oneself a guide in this context? How is Gurinder supposedly guiding anyone if not “spiritually”? You can’t know him. You can’t talk to him. He doesn’t write books. If it’s not in some sort of “inner planes” then where is he claiming to guide people?
That people on this blog are still making this claim that he’s an honest man who isn’t claiming to be at least a superior being of some sort actually makes me sick, to be honest. He absolutely says it, though just like his teachers, he says it evasively.

Hi Osho
It’s pretty clear your post has stirred up the RSSB pot again. Some interesting points of view, I think j’s comments are logical and ask honest questions.
I’m with Brian when he says ‘I’d find Dhillon to be more believable if he simply said that the traditional teachings are wrong.’
Part of me still feels miffed that (as several people say here) GSD continues to default to dogmatic teachings for the likes of initiations, satsangs etc – fundamentals of standard Sant Mat. Yet, according to how I read his interactions with you Osho the path is totally non-dual and all the so-called teachings that prop up/justify the organisation are actually ‘wrong’ as Brian says, or perhaps other words would be ‘incorrect’, ‘incomplete’ or ‘not the full story.’
I think harping on about where people are at in a so-called ‘heirarchy of awareness stages’, just keeps feeding the same bullshit that covers realisations about what truth is.
Of course one could say many RSSB followers are not interested in finding truth. That is, it’s religious aspects are sufficient to keep them feeling comfortable mentally, emotionally, socially, with some kind of ‘spiritualised future’ to action on and look forward to. But when it comes to the truth of things then my take is that if ‘Oneness’ is where it’s at:
There is essential ‘Oneness’ – OK – reality is non-dual, call it ‘Consciousness.’
If this is the case then there cannot be such a thing as a ‘separated soul.’
Meditation will/can lead to a giving-up/surrendering and a realisation that there is ‘no meditator/no thinker’ – Oneness, just consciousness.
Osho – ‘GSD: Forget about me. The previous gurus and the scriptures say that the creator will come and take care of his souls, but will we recognise him?’ –
Me – in truth no individual/soul will be there to do so, so recognising ‘him’ by ‘someone’ becomes moot.
If there is no such thing as a separated soul, then Karma does not happen to it.
Karma and reincarnation operate in duality – the ‘thinker’ creates and is affected by such things not the soul (whatever that is).
Osho – When I pointed out that no creator can come because in ONENESS there is no ” coming or going” he [GSD] agreed and said that God is ever present so doesn’t really come or go.
Me – truth is that there is only Oneness – how can something such as a soul or God come and go?
Osho – GSD – ‘Please, let’s be clear. I cannot erase your karmas, I cannot do anything for you’ –
Me – Can’t erase something that in truth does not exist.
I could be barking up the wrong tree, however the above interpretation makes much more sense to me. However, it pretty much broadsides all the standard belief systems/dogma put out there by RSSB. One could say that GSD is actually telling us to ditch the dogma and is spelling it out because he actually has realised this ‘oneness’. Or alternatively it’s just what he believes and can speak about it well.
Mystery …..
If Sant Mat, RSSB is about truth (as I see it) then wouldn’t it be good to dispense with all the dogma that no longer makes sense, (to me and others here), and say it as it really is, to the general audience. This is quite unlikely however, given that GSD says he is not GIHF/the PLM. Also, practically he is chained to the management of a big organisation with wealth and power. Speaking the truth of things both materially and spiritually could well result in the loss of his bentley.
PS do full stops go inside or outside quotation marks?
Best wishes

Robert wrote (referencing With the Three Masters): “KEY CLAIM I.
“….If the Guru himself has not reached Satlok, but his Guru is perfect or, like Swami Ji Maharaj, has come straight from Anami(the Nameless Region, the “highest” of all Regions),he will take his disciples up to the stage he has attained himself, and beyond that his Guru, or his Gurus Guru, or Swami Ji Maharaj Himself will take them. There should be no worry about this.”
This entire paragraph is in direct contradiction to GSD’s comments made to Osho. These comments aren’t even represented as allegorical. They are made as a statement of fact. So if GSD claims this is not true, then they are falsities. But to what end? To appease the masses? To lure them into believing something that is not evidently there? Or is it because GSD has himself not experienced this at all, and so now, as Faqir Chand stated, since he had not experienced these fantastical miracles of bi-location, then it can’t be true? Is that what this is all about?
To say that people won’t get the “Oneness”” thing, so I ‘ll make shit up and explain it later is beyond me. Those poor souls who at their death bed who feel so guilty that they couldn’t experience anything at the time of their death is horrible. To brush it aside that, oh well, once you’re dead, you’ll be taken care of. Really? Really? That’s a cop out if I’ve ever seen one.
I find that a bigger case of fraud here than anything else yet. At no point in the time from Soami Ji until the last 10 years, has the “Oneness” factor been mentioned in RSSB. Anyone else can try to explain it until you run out of breath, but it’s a hoax played on the poor innocents who felt guilt on their death beds. Unacceptable.
Rant over.

@um
Yes they Bake bread and you are the flour

@ osho.
Yes it is crime. You don’t pay council tax here in the uk = prison.
Loan not paid. Banks move the debt to a recovery agent who will come up with a suitable repayment plan based on what you can afford. Worse they take you to court or if you are unlucky – you get people built like me knocking on your door taking your possessions.
You see you do get punished.

Osho … next time when i shave my face looking in the mirror i will remember your words being flour. If I see flour i will let you know.
Osho when the fata morgana evaporates, nothing what was to be seen before, however attractive, will be gone and the bare dessert shows up.

This is, what I believe, Guru Brian Ji is trying to hammer home in us. -Spence
That is so funny, Master Guru Brian Hines (dr) is neither a guru nor a master nor is he trying to hammer anything home. I don’t think he owns a hammer

Arjuna, council tax is an illegal tax.
You cannot go to prison and it is not enforceable because it’s illegal
They make empty threats hoping you pay
Same as tv licence. Empty threats.
Here’s a link
https://youtu.be/51ReDfXPQ3c

j. Aug.14 2019 1235 pm
Very sweet paragraph entire note.
Takes me backbto the old days of the neptunian idealogies and our hopes and dreams…
Coming back to today…it appears that.
Amar Tim Jesse and Om excuse me Um… I like Om better…. Possibly others not to exclude anyone( sorry if I didnt say your name)….would like babaji to step up and speak himself to the sangats beyond just the one shot if you attend one satsang center…no notes no photos no cameras no recorders…yes it can be annoying BUT the satsangs should be available for purchase …listen i went to petaluma in 2000 i believe it was and indian women were photographing no one stopped them …had cameras but we were told we were not allowed to use them…they did and some nasty sevadar grabbed mine and I was not !! taking photos. I grabbed onto my device and did not release it and was not happy about it all either…others had their devices snatched but not everybody many others did not lose theirs.
The sense is if he wants to help everyone grow then many things need to be answered on the physical plane and he needs to be a leader that makes himself available . not just the hindi satsang recordings. I dont understand the secrecy…oh well. Im in pinda still I guess.
All the gurus say they are not masters.
It may be a humility game or so but things are out of joint now and my feeling is babaji should ,can and is able to open up and let people know him …
This is the time for him to break out of possible fears. Fears allotted to humans and be a brother if not father to many.
He can do it. We are all multifaceted beings with a lot to offer….
Hope Im not offending anyone its not meant to do that. Its meant to really I thank everybody on here for opening their hearts and expressing their hurts joys memories questions angers broken hearts and just being REAL people…thank you all and very much to Brian for holding the space..

Hi Osho!
You asked
“Firstly are there any documents about the loans and terms of repayment?”
Several sources about that, including an article posted by RSSB…
https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html
And here…
https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/-gurinder-singh-dhillon-used-funds-from-ranbaxy-stake-sale-to-buy-real-estate-1551812472511.html
And there’s more…
Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.
https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm
And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/
Worse, we learn that Gurindar had the charitable hospital destroyed, with the understanding that a new RSSB hospital would be built in its place, only to move those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital.
And we read of the myriad companies Gurindar has placed family members, including his wife, into principle roles, siphoning illegal loans from Fortis into these through the Singhs.
Here’s some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

Amar, I believe that the initiation book that Gurinder still uses for us lowly drooling idiots who stubbornly refuse to blindly accept the oneness hypothesis still talks about 4 lives, guru coming to carry us home etc.
The entire schtick of this Gurinder guy sucks. I’d actually prefer a standard guru cult without the childish mind games. If I wanted games I’d go cheat on my wife with a 21 year old woman.

J–
To me Sawan was saying that we shouldn’t try to worship a Master as GIHF until we meet Him within and can see for ourselves. Until that time, we can at best relate to Him as we would to an elder brother, friend or benefactor. We should not expect the physical Master to present as GIHF on the physical plane, so I think it’s normal for a Master to say he’s only a guide and a teacher.
We agree. The passage should not be used to justify a Master in misbehavior (the “because he’s God, you just don’t see it, you’re unevolved and have no right to question His behavior” argument). Instead I think it justifies the disciple in a relaxed and practical approach (just learn your ABC’s at first, you can’t run before you walk). It’s also to say don’t run after the physical Master, realize Him within.
The crux of it then is the Master’s behavior. Does He act like Mr High-And-Mighty-GIHF or does He guide and teach like an elder brother, friend or benefactor?

@Tim Rimmer
Full stops go inside quotation marks, but sometimes I put them outside. Just for laughs I guess.
Anyway onto the points you raise.
Very detailed comment. Well thought out.
1. GSD cannot just dismiss the previous teachings. Too much history. Will be unbelievable.
Also what will he say is the method then?
Consider 99% of people just want to do seva and a little meditation and hope he comes at death.
2. There is no separated soul BUT
As long as you have the illusion of a separate soul, that is practically where you ARE AT regardless of what is the truth.
Ultimately there are no karmas, however there ARE karmas if you are in the delusion of maya.
Understand this and you unravel the mystery.
Imagine you are dreaming. It all seems real. If you wake up, the dream disappears. But until you awaken, it appears real,
People in duality ask the wrong questions.
E.g. “if light comes into the room, where will the darkness go to?”
The question appears logical. After all it can’t just disappear.
But it does. Darkness is not a thing.
Same with all this. Karmas exist as long as YOU exist. No YOU = no karmas.
But as long as you experience yourself as this body and this mind then you will feel separate and that will be your reality
If you have a 1 million dollar diamond in your pocket but don’t know what it is and think it’s just a stone, it is the same as not having the million dollar diamond.
Until you recognise it, you may as well not have it. Same outcome .
Just telling everyone that it’s all the ONE will not work, they have to start where they are.
The ONE had to be your personal discovery not a teaching so I agree with GSD
Just changing the teaching will not work unless you also drop the meditation and create a whole new technique for realising
He has done the best he can. Continue with the old but sprinkle the new
It’s the only way. It’s not dishonest
In fact he is honest in saying no Guru comes st death
In the dialogue with me he said the creator will come. He acknowledges the truth but only if you are ready for it.
The struggle is necessary first
I spent 40 years in struggle

Thanks Robert Searle, enjoyed your comment, especially about concentration on the subtle energies of higher consciousness.
“Key Claim III … when the atmosphere becomes electric!! However, what I experience (along with many others) is something far more than this. It is A POWER unlike anything of this world…”
I’m understanding more now about Gurinder talking about Oneness. This is the Oneness that people feel. This magnificent uplifting energy which we can tune into.

Roberts blog 633 am aug 14 2019…
I can understand a lot of what you said or mean relate….
The energies in the ceiling not coming from the satsangis but in the general atmosphere not like electrical charges at a football game or concert.
Also the part about seeing babajis form and the idea of the radiant form being the higher self of you projected into the form of the master….
These are the experiences many have…and are not easily explained away or to be discarded.
The marvelous energy may be the love and devotion mirrored from everyone to the master and reflected back. The higher frequency of those in the group is activated by the higher thoughts in the room unlike the frequency of thoughts at a concert…
Energy is energy but the higher consciousness thoughts being mirrored and bounced off the master and back to the group does give a very float like experience…
Then theres a feeling of coming down when the satsang is over.
The master on the stage is HOLDING THE SPACE for these energy projections…he or she may or may not be a totally self realized soul but has some sort of realization to have made it to the stage …rather made it to be chosen as a leader.
To say where or what level babaji is really in is not my call…
To say that the divine is using him to destroy RS is something we dont know in pinda consciousness…
One thought is…RS lifestyle and thoughts on how to treat one another and animals and be a good person…if thats all that survives this boom town religion…its a good philosophy and way of life…
I agree a lot on your interpretation of your radiant form experience. I blogged a similar thought.
The mind gives us something that we are conditioned for in our visions to see until we reach the level of pure energy.
Rather than GO ANYWHERE…we become AWARE and the awareness of pure consciousness is the next stages of inner awareness.
Everything is circular so history repeats itself we move in a spiral.
Oshos fish will evolve and be aware of his water while he is immersed in another dimension.
Something like that dear one.
Like your blog.thank you for sharing this.
Chy

Osho you should be relegated to the open forum threads with 777. There’s only a very thin veneer of something that resembles the sensical that distinguishes you and 777.
You attempt to establish some of the most absurd motives as if a guy who was involved in poisoning African kids for profit absolutely must have the cleanest heart and best intentions.
And please stop preaching. You’re not enlightened. You’ve realized nothing whatsoever. You’re a satsangi who replaced words like sach khand with “oneness.”
There is no church of the churchless for the most part. There is the church of siphoning members into new churches.

Hey, wait a minute! When did Baba Ji start talking about the ONE? Before or after publication of Brian Hines’ Return to the One: Plotinus’s Guide to God-Realization? Is Baba Ji taking a wink with Osho at Brian Ji?

If you understand that we are all part of the same creation, that we are truly brothers and sisters with all creation, then we are One. The same golden rules of conduct should apply to all of us: honesty, humility, helpfulness.
But where you make excuses for misconduct, in yourself or anyone else, for harm, then that is a barrier to personal progress. It is quite antagonistic to universal brotherhood /sisterhood. It is taking not giving. No one should adhere to such a dogma.
That isn’t One, it isn’t even zero. It’s a negative value.

@spence
I read the articles you linked to.
This is what it says
“Some of these facts also emerged from the complaint filed by Malvinder Singh….”
These are allegations only and based on what malvinder is saying. Yes there is a money transfer, but only malvinder claims they were loans.
The order is against malvinder and Shivinder. The requirement to pay has not shifted to Gurinder. Basically malvinder is saying that Gurinder was given loans and “owes me money” so the court has said “pay us rather than malvinder”
Perfectly normal for courts to do that to ensure that malvinder pays what he owes.

The entire schtick of this Gurinder guy sucks. I’d actually prefer a standard guru cult without the childish mind games. If I wanted games I’d go cheat on my wife with a 21 year old woman. – Jesse

We’ll go join Krsna consciousness or Scientology. And go cheat on your wife.
Do you want me to supply the 21 year old woman, or can you find her yourself?

“But where you make excuses for misconduct, in yourself or anyone else, for harm, then that is a barrier to personal progress.”
I think its the opposite. The barrier is finding fault and judging self and others. Its an imperfect world and each person has their own personal power and there is no need to either follow another or judge another. We are all on our own personal journey and thats all there is. To do the best we can.

@ Osho.
Everyone pays council tax. You are thinking of poll tax. And yes I know people who have gone to prison or had bailiffs chase them.
Let’s not argue. I am right and you are wrong simple this is getting boring now.

Hi Osho
You wrote
“I read the articles you linked to.
This is what it says
“Some of these facts also emerged from the complaint filed by Malvinder Singh….”
‘These are allegations only and based on what malvinder is saying’
I’m sorry Osho but your statement is false.
You must not have read the articles.
“Over the years, the brothers’ main holding company loaned about 25 billion rupees ($360 million) to the Dhillon family and property businesses largely controlled by them, according to documents and people familiar with the matter. Some of those outlays were financed with money borrowed from the Singhs’ listed companies, and when combined with other Singh investments gone bad threw their empire into a debt spiral, a Bloomberg News analysis of public records and interviews with 10 people familiar with the finances of both camps showed.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

Osho
Here again in the Mint article you missed their own independent audit when you stated erroneously that only Malvinder’s testimony is included…
“According to the financial statements of these companies reviewed by Mint, ₹430 crore was received by Best Healthcare from Fortis and Religare group while ₹207.15 crore was advanced to Dhillon’s sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon.
“An additional ₹287 crore loan was extended to the Godhwani and Dhillon families out of the ₹496 crore received from Fortis and Religare by Fern Healthcare.
“A sum of ₹223.15 crore was also advanced to the Dhillon family by Modland Wears, ₹152 crore by Adept Creations and ₹8 crore by Rosestar Marketing Pvt. Ltd (cross holding with Green Line).”
https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

Hi Jen
You wrote
“The barrier is finding fault and judging self and others”
If you cannot find fault, how can you find truth?
If you cannot be wrong, how do you know when you are right?
Is it only what feels good to you?
Is the truth always pleasure?
Have you never learned from the pain of life’s teachings?
We all want it handed to us on a platter, like a baby.
But at some point we must stand on our own two feet and use our capacity to think for ourselves.

Hi Osho
You wrote
“The order is against malvinder and Shivinder. The requirement to pay has not shifted to Gurinder.”
I’m sorry Osho but this is also false.
“RSSB chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon, wife Shabnam Dhillon, sons Gurkirat and Gurpreet and daughter-in-law Nayan Tara Dhillon are among the 56 entities from whom Delhi HC has ordered recovery of monies Singh brothers-Malvinder & Shivinder-owe to Daiichi. Money will also be recovered from former Religare chief Sunil Godhwani and brother Sanjay Godhwani, according to the Delhi HC order.”
…
” Besides the Dhillon family, the Delhi HC is issuing ‘garnishee orders’ against several Dhillon and RSSB associates’ companies, including Prius Real Estate, Addon Realty, Payne Realtors SGGD Projects, Luminous Holding. A garnishee order is an order against a third party to recover money to settle a debt or dues.”
…
” Garnishee order prevents these entities from alienating any assets. The dues will now be paid to Delhi HC instead of Singh brothers and their entities to whom it is owed.”
Please note this last sentence. The Singh brothers are no longer responsible to pay these amounts to the high Court. That responsibility has been directly transferred off their shoulders and directly onto Gurinder et al.
Also from the same article…
“BusinessToday.In has reported the flow of money from Singh brothers to entities owned and controlled by Gurinder Singh Dhillon – the head of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas – his family and assocites of RSSB. RoC filings and terms sheets say between 2011 and 2014, Rs 1107.5 crore from the Rs 9,576 crore sale proceeds of Ranbaxy to Daiichi Sankyo was paid through RHC group firms RHC Holding Private Limited, Oscar Investment Limited, RHC Finance Private Limited and Fortis Healthcare Holdings Private Limited into two group entities ANR Securities Private Limited and Ranchem Private Limited.”
…
” Thereafter, this money was transferred to Prius Real Estate Private Limited controlled by Dhillon family associates and RSSB functionaries through optionally convertible debentures (OCD). The money invested in other Prius group entities called Prius Commercial, Payne Realtors, SVIIT Software and Sharan Hospitality whose preference shares worth Rs 875.53 crore were subscribed to by Prius Real Estate. Both the OCDs and preference shares were to be redeemed between August-November, 2018 at a hefty premium.
“Delhi HC had concluded the hearing on May 28. The written order was issued on June 10.”
https://m.businesstoday.in/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html

Osho, please note from Bloomberg
“Both the OCDs and preference shares were to be redeemed between August-November, 2018 at a hefty premium.
“Delhi HC had concluded the hearing on May 28. The written order was issued on June 10.”
https://m.businesstoday.in/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html
Baba Ji, please pay your delinquent bills.

Radhasoami Mat and the ONE? Yes, recently I too have been pondering over the connection between Radhasoami Mat, RSSB, Gurinder and the “ONE”.
Not the obvious connection questions; Is there even ONE reason to believe Gurinder is a mystic of any sort or “level” whatsoever, let alone a “Perfect Living Master” as defined by RS dogma, or even has any actual personal interest or experience in mystical states of consciousness beyond the fact he was chosen to take over the family business by his uncle, for example?
No, no, no…….I have a far more profound and telling question and connection between the ONE and RS, RSSB & Gurinder, and it is this:
Is there even ONE genuine seeker on the entire planet who is currently believing or following either RS, RSSB or Gurinder? I’m serious, is there ANYBODY out there who isn’t over 40 (and given up on the sincere search :), or isn’t related to somebody who is over 40 and initiated by RS, who actually believes any of these childish & naive magical myths of the RS doctrine? And, even further to this almost inconceivable notion, the idea that the fraudulent, failed semi-billionaire baba who associates with the rich, famous & powerful (and disgraced) politicians, who’s goons are alleged to have made death threats, who demands his RELIGIOUS ORGANISATION build properties in communities they are not wanted by demanding their RELIGIOUS rights, etc etc etc, is an actual & literal personification of the “Perfect Living Master” as defined by that very same RS doctrine?
Just ONE we need, to validate this path didn’t die out decades ago as a viable spiritual path? I mean, c’mon…..millions of religious followers world wide, and there isn’t a SINGLE independent, genuine seeker – someONE who is ready to sacrifice their life at the drop of a hat in exchange for the “truth” – who thinks RS and/or Gurinder is a viable “spiritual path”?
Come out into to the open, wherever you are……you must surely exist, somewhere. It would almost be a divine seal of disapproval on RS & Gurinder if there wasn’t, wouldn’t it? I mean, sincere seekers even stumble into and out of “worldly” religions like Christianity, Buddhism etc, it would be a miracle in itself if there was not ONE single sincere and independent seeker associated with RS & Gurinder, wouldn’t it?
Come on….where are you? Come, we shall talk as kindred spirits. Ignore all these old cultists and family-based religious followers on this blog, their minds are trapped within magic and myth, the projection of their own infinite Self which they do not understand onto human idols.
Ah, but alas, after having followed these online discussions about RS for more than 2 decades, a most bewildering realisation has dawned on me; there is not even ONE genuine and sincere seeker in RS.
The gurus you deserve ARE corrupt & fraudulent Babas, because your seeking is corrupt.

I think to see what Jen is saying aug 14 2019 10:24pm…
I think men have a special kind of communication with each other…its often times more rough and bouncy and filled with a sense of oneupsmanship…its quite often not with animosity just a masculine style of delivery thats learned for survival in this cold cruel world. . It can sound judgemental but guys sort of banter back and forth. Shove that football around and bang each other up.
Women hit a flowery style sort of wash things down try to soften the edges…(not always and not in politics)
Both ways can be agitating.
Anyway Im doing the woman thing I guess but sometimes some blogs have a sense of really denegrating one another I lose what youre trying to inform .Sometimes its a great laugh too ….:-) and really though youre here in part to share your hearts…so in writing sometimes” send a rose ” along with your content…guys like flowers too..youre all really interesting and precious to god and this place this space is to help one another as I see it..
Chy

Manjit,when I stopped going to satsangs the local community had become almost all recent immigrant Indians who’d been born into RSSB. The size of the community seems to be large enough over there that it acts as a normal religion.
In contrast, when I first started, the local sangat was mixed with old timers and seekers from all backgrounds.
This isn’t to say that there are zero possible genuine Indian seekers, but being that Americans don’t really treat radha soami as an inherited religion, the absence of new Americans makes me think very few people are joining because they feel RS is “the truth.”
I’m almost 40 now, and everyone my age left before me.
There is no purity anywhere. It’s not just RS. Humans believing in anything at all is the fundamental problem.

@robert Searle
I read your comment in detail just now.
Who is the harjit Singh you refer to?
There was a speaker in the Southall are by that name, but nobody calls him sang.
I consider treasure beyond measure to be charan Singh’s way of making his position clear.
I don’t think its a matter of Gurinder being an “imperfect” master.
It’s a matter of the meaning of a “perfect master” as that title conjures up all kinds of ideas in the mind.
Charan clearly refuted any claim to all knowingness by saying he was unaware of his selection as guru. Same for Gurinder.
Gurinder is saying that he is simply guiding you on the path if you choose this path.
He makes no claims of any powers.
He also says that many of the traditional teachings were never meant to be taken literally.
Such as regions, Lords of regions, kal, even Anami, say purush etc. All just symbolic

Osho said,
Those teachings say that the guru is greater than God, because the guru takes souls back to God, being God in Human Form. The radiant form of the guru (meaning, a supernatural form) guides the disciple through higher regions of reality all the way to Sach Khand, or “heaven.” -Brian Hines
Who has and where do the teachings say this?

There clearly is a huge difference between teachings saying the Guru is greater than God and a seeker saying from his perspective he treats his Guru greater than God because the Guru leads him back to his true home.
But even this is sublimely stupid – if God and Guru are the same and all that the Guru does is bring back his quota of souls ( the distinction in physical form only for it’s always the shabd which is the Guru)

Spence the suits for siphoning of money is against the Singh brothers and their controlled entities. The suit was filed against them today by fortis.

Jesse wrote
“Osho you should be relegated to the open forum threads with 777. There’s only a very thin veneer of something that resembles the sensical that distinguishes you and 777.”
Well, well, well, what can I say?
You should be relegated to
£&£?!?%#?!
In the interests of being civil I will leave you to fill in the word.
I have already relegated you, as you may have noticed I rarely reply to your comments as they are not even worth reading, let alone replying to.

The barrier is finding fault and judging self and others. Its an imperfect world and each person has their own personal power and there is no need to either follow another or judge another. We are all on our own personal journey and thats all there is. – Jen

Well said. Who made us judge and jury?
I have enough on my hands dealing with my own faults and issues.
Pointing things out is one thing. Condemning a person is quite another.
Let everyone choose their path. If you don’t like it – that’s your business. If others choose to follow it that’s their business.
I don’t see Gurinder begging anyone to follow RSSB.

Hi Anon
Do you have a link?
This is what the SEBI concluded, but that sliphoned money went in large part to Gurinder, family and associates in the form of legally binding loans, and they are delinquent in payment. Those Fortis loans are only part of the story. The loans Shivinder and Malvinder gave Baba Ji et al directly from the sale of Ranbaxy are also the leverage for the high court’s order for repayment directly to Gurinder at al on June 10 of this year.
From above…
” Thereafter, this money was transferred to Prius Real Estate Private Limited controlled by Dhillon family associates and RSSB functionaries through optionally convertible debentures (OCD). The money invested in other Prius group entities called Prius Commercial, Payne Realtors, SVIIT Software and Sharan Hospitality whose preference shares worth Rs 875.53 crore were subscribed to by Prius Real Estate. Both the OCDs and preference shares were to be redeemed between August-November, 2018 at a hefty premium.
“Delhi HC had concluded the hearing on May 28. The written order was issued on June 10.”
https://m.businesstoday.in/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html
As you can see, these loans, legal and confirmed from independent audit, are linked directly to the Ranbaxy sale, went to Dhillon et al, and are now delinquent. From above, they were due August – November 2018.
This is why the high court placed direct responsibility for their payment onto Dhillon et al shoulders and off Malvinder and Shivinder in their order for payment on June 10.
But as to the criminal aspects, that is, as you can see, in development. Malvinder and Shivinder generated the loans and so you have documentation of their actions. But they had the cooperation of associates of Gurinder, as the SEBI audits confirmed, and that is also documented. Gurinder at all received much of those loans, and so are only legally responsible for their timely payment, which they are now delinquent in making.
Unfortunately, because the high court directly ordered repayment from Gurinder et al to the high court and not to Malvinder or Shivinder, the high court has established the full responsibility for these lost monies upon Gurinder et al’s shoulders, laying the groundwork for further and direct legal, possibly criminal, action if the monies and their interest and fines are not duly paid. Currently Gurinder is at risk of contempt of court for failure to repay.

The article states:”Fortis Hospitals has filed a suit against Best Healthcare, Fern Healthcare, Modland Wears, Malvinder Mohan Singh, Shivinder Mohan Singh and certain other entities… The suit is sub-judice. At present, we have no further comments,” the company said. …”
https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/fortis-files-suit-to-recover-rs-520-crore-from-malvinder-shivinder-singh-119081500017_1.html

Very well put, Jen. There is no need to judge or put another on pedestal. We all have our own strengths and flaws and are on our own journey.
That being the case, why is Gurinder on an elevated dais being asked his insights on the mysteries of the universe? What does he know?
It’d be different if Osho and Gurinder were buds just shooting the shit, philosophizing over a beer. That’s not the case. By assuming the role of PLM and sitting on a dais, he is implicitly staking claim to enlightenment.
Would an enlightened person who has merged with the One greedily chase riches? No, as he already has the entire cosmos in his heart.
Thus GSD is a manipulative fraud.
That said, I understand there are many desperate, lonely ppl in the world just looking for something/anything to believe in. If they find comfort in GSD, I suppose it’s better than other options (drugs, etc.)

“I don’t see Gurinder begging anyone to follow RSSB.”
Then what has been the purpose of his 30 year straight tour of book sales and property acquisition?
He’s obviously not doing it to lose followers.

“they are not even worth reading, let alone replying to.”
That’s not why. It’s cause I called you out and you can’t respond. Your deflections didn’t work.
Gurinder is your god and you’re too deceitful to admit it.

@Manjit
Excellent question. And following on: Is there a single PLM on this planet? Was there ever one? Is the very concept a fabrication?

Karma King: “That being the case, why is Gurinder on an elevated dais being asked his insights on the mysteries of the universe? What does he know?”
I can only guess. Who can understand the inner perspective of how someone thinks and why someone behaves the way they do. My thoughts would be that he is fulfilling his family duty. Hasn’t he said that he is not perfect? I think I read something like that on this blog. He’s just another dude fulfilling his duty and maybe even helping many people who are experiencing much difficulty in their lives. Its like going to the doctor when you are not well and need assistance even though doctors don’t have the answers to everything and there is only so much they can do.

Dear Manjit,
I am so surprised you’ve asked this question, really?
either you’ve been totally sarcastic which I couldn’t guess,
or imo, that’s an irrelevant question, you need to visit Beas to witness not one but in abundance who are so much in love they won’t even care to respond to your question. I personally know not one but many.
Dear Osho,
Can I ask you how far you were sitting from the Master while having this conversation?
I love it, but also I am sort of jealous with you, you are too lucky to be too close to the Master too frequently 🙂
Even being in India, I am tied up in some situations by HIS order and don’t get chance too often,
to be present at HIS feet.
In fact so much so, the more I wish to be at HIS discourse, the more I am pushed back and made sure that I won’t be able to attend – ha ha – it’s a funny circus.
I love reading these conversations so much.
Dear Robert,
I can happily assert the Key Claim 3.
By HIS grace I experience that many times when I attend the stsang at the local satsang centers.
This also verifies the statement that Master/Divinity/Shabd is present in abundance at the local satsang centers even when HE is not physically present.
Also when I attend Babaji’s satsang at Beas or at Delhi, I experience this phenomena at much more intensity throughout the whole huge satsang hall, and even many hours after the discourse in parks and everywhere.
At the discourse it happens along with many other beautiful things, hard to explain, which constantly occurs around and inside HIM at varying frequencies.
And it happens too frequently when HE is giving darshan and also when not speaking during discourse and waiting for the verse to be completed.
When HE speaks and sometimes takes a pause, which we observe with any worldly speech when the speaker takes a pause giving some moments to the audience on what has been spoken about, but in HIS discourse, these pauses in between the speech are something much bigger – some turbulent things are always happening inside and around HIM during these moments as HE allows me to witness it.

“Gurinder is your god and you’re too deceitful to admit it.”. – Jesse
So now you claim the ability to read minds too?
Well I know my mind far better than your surmising based on your prejudices.
Doing satsang tours does not qualify as ” begging ” except in Jesse’s twisted mind.
Clearly you are out of touch with reality.

“Excellent question. And following on: Is there a single PLM on this planet? Was there ever one? Is the very concept a fabrication?”. – PJ
The concept is erroneous. There are enlightened people, not perfect masters.

@Jen But if he is not a PLM, then a more accurate analogy would be a case of somebody pretending to have a medical qualification and then masquerading as a MD

How about Ishwar Puri? Is Ishwar Puri a PLM?
The set of his gaze suggests his consciousness sits permanently at the eye focus, but I suspect he tells tall tales. In one recording he talked about viewing a shaman at work, jumping wildly up and down to affect magical cures on a succession of patients. Ishwar’s wife was there too and got scared, so she began simran. Before you know it, the shaman fell over and couldn’t get up, so powerful was her simran over his evil spirits!
Telekinetic simran? Who ever heard of that? By what authority did Ishwar begin initiating? Any Ishwar Puri scholars out there?

Hi Osho, you wrote, “The concept is erroneous. There are enlightened people, not perfect masters.”
Agree. But the term enlightened then needs to be clarified. Again, one falls into semantics in defining it, recognizing it, and believing one to be enlightened. Same issues, just different terminology. Although PLM clearly denotes an almost unachievable stance.
Based on one’s background, exposure to spiritual concepts, and mindset, an enlightened individual can be just as much a fake, just saying the right things with no knowledge of it.

“PLM clearly denotes an almost unachievable stance.”
So are almost all definitions of “enlightenment.” It’s just as “erroneous” as any other designation used for people we admire. That’s what it comes down to in the end. People feeling excessive admiration for charismatic figures who offer release, salvation, enlightenment, realization of oneness, wealth, freedom, whatever your desire is.
Prisons are absolutely full of enlightened gurus with murder charges who very easily get women, and men who act/think like women,guards to do their bidding and/or have their babies while imprisoned.
There is no discernible psychological difference between one man worshiping another man whose on a stage rambling about gods, and a female prison guard getting mesmerized and ______ in the ____ and having a baby by a cult leader inmate who manages a gang in the yard. It’s literally the exact same mechanism with slightly different external forms.
And those who are hanging out at satsangs doing meditation are basically just lucky. Charles Manson had satsangs too. The people who attended his holy satsangs were in the same susceptible state of mind as those who seek enlightenment from a fat tibetan who counts huge stacks of money in his dharamsala apartment when his students eyes aren’t on him.

In the initiation forms it is said that the radiant form of the Master is now planted in the/your thirth eye.
That he helps you trough all the inner stages..
So you are the lucky one(this is not written,but mostly felt)

@Anami.
@Jesse
Your request for info on Ishwar..hes now near Chicago area with a center also in Wisconsin…not a huge following. He says that great master sent him to the west to start a dera and bring sant mat…never says RS just sant mat to the west…
Ive listened to a lot of Ishwar over the years.
Yes the eyes show some what can be high intelligence or enlightenment. A huge concentration of energy reflection.
He explains ! a lot of things much clearer than the RS masters.
He initiated some people for a while then he stopped because he felt he was not a person that should be initiating and didnt want that responsibility. He always credits great master. Never ever mentions the last 2 RS has current GSD or M.Charan.
He emphasizes the need for a living master PLM and then credits only great master and before him.
I spent a fair amount of time with his dad Lekh Raj Puri in India…he was very kind and helpful person. He enjoyed westerners being there as many other “leaders” helping m. Charan wished foreigners would leave…..so the dera would settle down. Hah they should be there now.
Ishwar comes from what seems to be a loving and intellectual place.
He says more or less to the many satsangis from RS that go to him now …to do their meditation and they dont need reinitiation from him…
He never mentions the vows or a set time for meditation…2 1/2 hours…cant say hes changed it but he just talks about the need for a PLM and the explanations of the regions the mind and the great master and many lovely stories.
Jesse… I understand what you mean about sort of desperate blind empty headed followers of saints and sinners to make it short…
There is not a place of discernment and SELF AWARENESS when a person is in whats sort of an ecstatic high all the time and not grounded in there thinking just desperately idol worshipping…then they fall off that pedestal both leaders and followers and a sad situation befalls both.
Many dera people did this may still do.
Wait for hours to see his car drive by. Fall and cry at his feet. Get in fist fights which ive seen at the dera to get front row satsang seats to get more darshan and more unobstructed light from the master…and then claim they are helpers and some in the healing professions…this overtake like a monster takes over people but its short lived…they often give it all up soon after the craze wears off…
Stay in balance whatever gives you peace dear Jesse and all of us do what makes you feel happy inside. It all works out over time.
Best to stay balanced if possible..
Chy

Jesse, that is what I’m getting at. Whether you say PLM, Enlightened, Constipated, fill in the blank…
You can’t know for sure. Somebody like Ishwar who is very engaging and insightful, or someone who says the right things that resonate with you, you don’t really know if they are enlightened or have achieved anything of substance. It would appear, in my opinion, depend9ng on your background and mindset, to accept someone such as these people.
Once you’re committed to it, it becomes tough to remove yourself because you’re so invested, especially emotionally, like you were I the past and recently myself. It takes a lot to come to that realization, but when you do, you’ve things as they really are and see the facade around the entire act being played out by these organizations and individuals calling themselves PLM, enlightened ones, teachers or guides.

Yes, there is absolutely no dearth of devotion among masses who visit Him regularly in india despite so much muck and filth thrown here and also in media with obvious plain questions or may be some of us may want to peep into His troubles or His immediate family’s dilemma in settling the finances for good.
Irrespective of whether He is an accomplice into vast and intricate business deals or. not nvolving huge amounts and properties while His poor indian sangat may not be able to count and spell the amount He/ they played with.
He is tallest among Saints as He belongs to a time and events trusted lineage of Perfect Saints and yet playing with fire ( ill gotten money it seems and what I think as by manipulations by His group yet His role is unclear). However He expects His sangat to behave honestly and lovingly with others.
While the said huge money mess overtakes the myth that a satsangi need be extremely conscious while amassing wealth and properties if He or His family sets such an example as His spiritual throne is not getting affected than why would it be for His dear sangat. i am still to validate this.

“He is tallest among Saints as He belongs to a time and events trusted lineage of Perfect Saints”
I’d argue that even among the various rs factions Beas is possibly the least trusted. Having numbers isn’t a sign of quality or trust.
Wasn’t it Sawan himself who used the metaphor about never seeing packs of tigers or large groups of saints?
The belief that beas is the best and most trusted comes from the same mental place that says taylor swift makes the best music.

It’s not complicated. If you want to achieve anything it must become your passion and single devotion, whether that is spuritual development or business development.
And that is why Gurinder is not at the top, as his financial adventures and attention are broadly distributed and multi – faceted.
Many humbler devotees made their Guru and their spirituality their whole life… Living the vows in every moment. Just as you say Jesse. By their humble love they fly beyond within. And they also have earned the right to have their questions answered honestly, humbly, completely, with respect…. Which is what we haven’t seen lately.

Or to put it in more pointed terms, no true Saint cooks with the same water they bathed in.

Spence if I would have even in the smallest amount the qualities you attribute to an devoted disciple, I would rather leave him that question him.
I wrote “IF” …
I don’t understand and never did how one can question those one say to respect, love etc.
Writing this I do remember the words of his uncle never, under no circumstance to critisize and judge others and especially those who are considered teachers etc.

Spence 1149 am aug 16 2019 your entire letter.
ABSOLUTELY see that in its entirety…
What I liked as well was that you didnt indicate WHERE GSD is spiritually but suggested to him of course if he reads your blog some things he could do for his sheep…
Its up to him….
Very WELL presented Spence…
Chy

What if the 3 so called Abrahamic religions are right, Spence, and everyone who worshipped a man ends up in hell too?
The funniest thing I’ve seen in adopters of Indic religions is their doing so for the reasons of not finding some of the ideas of punishment or morality agreeable, and only knowing the happy fun parts of Hinduism, Buddhism or whatever. Truth is never a concern.
Not that I believe in truth. It’s just an example of human pleasure seeking taking a religious form.
Many converts to Hinduism seem wholly ignorant of the descriptions of brutal and torturous punishments meted out to “sinners.” And Buddhist converts equally attach themselves to an amoral view that doesn’t originate with any Buddha but with Western writers on Buddhism.
There’s a line in Prabhupads translations of the Bhagvatam about being drowned slowly in an ocean of semen, as a punishment for immoral sexual activity.It’s disgusting and hilarious somehow.
Some old RS books describe really painful and terrible things happening to those who fail in realizing god, but satsangis generally overlook them out of convenience. My favorite is the one about being born as a water buffalo and being beaten by a farmer while forced to walk in circles to pump water. It’s just an ugly image made to strike fear into practitioners so they beg the guru more.
Sick stuff this religion game is.

Quote of the Day
“If we truly long for the Lord, if our search for Him is genuine, if we really thirst for Him, we cannot but enter the shrine of our own body and locate Him there.”
— Maharaj Charan Singh –

What is PLM software?
Product lifecycle management (PLM) is the process of managing complex product information, engineering and manufacturing workflows, and collaboration.
PLM software connects people, processes, and data across the entire product lifecycle to a central repository of information. So everyone from the conceptual designer to the end-customer is on the same page, sharing the same up-to-date product definition.
How clever is the above!

Some old RS books describe really painful and terrible things happening to those who fail in realizing god, but satsangis generally overlook them out of convenience. My favorite is the one about being born as a water buffalo and being beaten by a farmer while forced to walk in circles to pump water. It’s just an ugly image made to strike fear into practitioners so they beg the guru more.

Actually, I think all fear is self-induced. Some of it is healthy caution
but mostly we’re just surrendering to the mind’s doubts, its frightening
imagery, and its constant whispers of doom. The people who attempt
to strike fear in others are being driven by their minds as well. That
includes all blind believers, including RSSB’ers … probably now suffering
fresh nightmares of turning into a water buffalo.

Excellent question. And following on: Is there a single PLM on this planet? Was there ever one? Is the very concept a fabrication?”. – PJ
The concept is erroneous. There are enlightened people, not perfect masters. – Osho Robbins

“Perfect” is an impossible standard, because perfection does not exist.
“Enlightened person” is also a lie, because a “person” cannot be enlightened.
Enlightenment means the absolute recognition that everything within time and space is unreal and an illusion.
If you can see it, if it has a shape, its within time and space.
So Osho Robbins is unreal. So is Gurinder. All forms are unreal. So a “person” cannot be enlightened because enlightenment is knowing there is no person, no separation.
Enlightenment is knowing that there Is only ONENESS and nothing else is real.
There is only the ocean, no waves.
Only the one soul that is everywhere and no individual souls.
So no person attains it. Because “you” ending is the same as its coming.
The words are the barrier to realisation, because its beyond words.
A bit like saying that only one thing exists at a time. Either light or darkness.
If you switch ON the light, how long does it take for the darkness to “go” and “where” does it go?
The question only arises if you fail to understand the nature of light and darkness. Neither comes or goes.
Darkness is the absence of light. It’s already there, it doesn’t come when you turn the light off.
The oneness is like the darkness.
1. You cannot SEE it. If anyone claims to SEE it, they are lying. It is not something that can be seen.
2. Its not a “thing”
3. It doesn’t come or go.
4. Its always there, waiting for the light to be turned off.
5. No effort is required to make the darkness come into the room.
6. No amount of praying or meditation or begging will make the darkness come any quicker.
7. The act of turning off the light is enough for the darkness to appear.
8. The light and the darkness can never meet. The meeting is impossible. Only one if the two exists at a time.
Compare this to kabir’s statement
When ” I” was, you was not
Now YOU are and “I” am not.
Now replace “I” with LIGHT
And “you” with DARKNESS.
A switch can only be ON or OFF.
The coming of one is the absence of the other.
The darkness is not an attainment.
Anything you attain cannot be “IT”
If you can attain it, you can also lose it.
If god was an attainment, it would not be worth bothering with. Because anything that is attained can also be lost again.
The ONE is what remains when all else is gone (the lights are turned off)
YOU will not be there to witness the ONE, neither will “I”
Your absence is its presence
Amen.

“Actually, I think all fear is self-induced.”
Has anyone ever pointed a gun at your head? Cause that is undeniably frightening to anyone and it’s instinctual.
“The people who attempt
to strike fear in others are being driven by their minds as well. That
includes all blind believers, including RSSB’ers ..”
In this case it’s the gurus themselves attempting to strike fear in others. So i guess the lineage of so called masters haven’t overcome their minds yet. Glad we agree on at least one thing.

“Enlightenment means the absolute recognition that” blah blah blah blah.
So it’s essentially just as true as “knowing” that jesus is your savior because long list of reasons that just must be true, even if they actually are likely to be false.
Many people leave religion, but religion never leaves them.
Obviously this oneness thing is a great example of that, but so was a conversation I had with a friend the other day who now believes he’s a Marxist. He kept calling it a science, even as he rambled on and on in a most religious fashion about already disproven economic theories and predictions that have already come, gone and failed. Most political thought is religious, especially any political idea that outright refuses to integrate our knowledge of genes and behavior into it.
But humans need to believe in supernatural hypotheses of one kind or another, regardless of how TOTALLY NOT RELIGIOUS!!! they think their personal beliefs are. This is why I’m pretty ambivalent about judging North Korea.

“Actually, I think all fear is self-induced.”
–Has anyone ever pointed a gun at your head? Cause that is undeniably frightening to anyone and it’s instinctual.

The next sentence goes: “Some of it is healthy caution but mostly we’re
just surrendering to the mind’s doubts.”

“The people who attempt to strike fear in others are being driven by their
minds as well. That includes all blind believers, including RSSB’ers ..”
–In this case it’s the gurus themselves attempting to strike fear in others. So i guess the lineage of so called masters haven’t overcome their minds yet. Glad we agree on at least one thing.

No, blind belief fails to dispel fear and those ailing from it project
their fear onto others. An alleged “buffalo scare story” hardly makes
a compelling case that a RSSB guru was deliberately fear-mongering.
That’s coming from within.

Dear Jesse,
In fact there has not been a substantial controversy associated with Beas Saints before which have their roots in Soami Ji and Tulsi ji – widely known as Perfect and Pure saints.
Their pure spiritual character has been acknowledged by not only Indians but also Westerners in different times and even now even in the midst of a severe storm. confined to allegations thus far – stretched out to conclusions against Him and thus indirectly hinting the esteemed lineage as a spiritual mockery, game plan to push humanity to tread a particular subtle beyond logics.spiritual hypothesis – as for some.

“An alleged “buffalo scare story” hardly makes
a compelling case that a RSSB guru was deliberately fear-mongering.”
He could kill someone and you’d find a way to defend it. That’s the role you’ve taken on for the cult, which it seems nobody asked of you. It would not be hyperbolic to say that you’d have fit in perfectly in the manson family.
It’s not a single “buffalo story” and it’s not alleged. Get the books and read them if you don’t know what I’m talking about. There are stories of fathers asking their sons to commit suicide for lying or some other minor offense in I believe tales of the mystic east book, the entire “chaurasi lakh chakr” concept of constant painful rebirth which nobody has evidence of, various descriptions of hell realms and karmic retributions, and the list goes on.
If it’s not intentional fear mongering, then the RS gurus and their source material are both idiotic and so unsuited for the modern age that they should be eliminated anyway.

If it’s not intentional fear mongering, then the RS gurus and their source material are both idiotic and so unsuited for the modern age that they should be eliminated anyway.

Hatred and book burning are exactly what fear brings.

Think this has been missed. Shahid Kapoor at a drugs party lol.
GSD fixed his marriage. . What will GSD think. Surely GSD knew being the Lord. Speak GSD followers??? What are your thoughts.

Just watched The Matrix again, after such a long time. With all this talk about The ONE. Now I realise ( real eyes). It’s none other than Neo!

“Hatred and book burning are exactly what fear brings.”
Well then we have an even better explanation as to why Gurinder implores the world to burn books.
Thank you for once again proving my point for me unintentionally.

“widely known as Perfect and Pure saints.
Their pure spiritual character has been acknowledged by not only Indians but also Westerners in different times and even now even in the midst of a severe storm. ”
Lol what? I’ve never met a non Punjabi in my life who has ever heard of radha soami.
The sorts of westerners attracted to eastern religions are generally outcastes in the extreme minority, and from that small sub group radha soami makes up an insignificant portion.
Nobody has heard of them let alone agrees about their “pure spiritual character.”
You’re making things up.

Arjun, I watched the video and id agree that everyone looks a bit drunk and some are holding drinks but I wouldn’t suspect it’s a “drug party.”
But it’s Bollywood. They’re the dregs of humanity. No initiation into a meditation cult can change their ways. They’ll continue their attacks on humanity for as long as cameras exist. The only worse people are in Hollywood.
It is telling that Gurinder won’t allow users of psychiatric medicines to come to dera, previously they couldn’t be initiated, but Bollywood sex fiends get front row seats at satsangs and personal attention from this “enlightened” “guide” of “oneness.”
They’re literally the only ones who potentially receive any personal guidance.
Maybe they shoot meth with Gurinder and swap wives. Wouldn’t be the first time rich and powerful people did things in private that they don’t reveal in public.

Hello Jesse
Good points- this is shady. As soon as politicians started visiting GSD at beas – you knew something was shady.
Shahid kapoor is his boy. I remember GSD was once stroking his hair at Haynes uk many year ago and people when Arhhhhhh. Wrong man.
GSD states that people must lead moral and I guess there are many who do and then he cohorts with film stars lol.
Have you seen that movie The Interview Starring Seth Roger’s and James Franco where they go to North Koroa with hilarious effects. You and should get a camera crew and go to beas – let’s get the real blow down – oops I mean low down! Lol

We do not understand what “biology” is, deeply, and therein is the problem. Spirit minus biology equals God.

Thanks, thought slayer.
Now we have one more philosophical assertion that is beyond humans scope to analyze.
I guess should just accept one or another.

“Hatred and book burning are exactly what fear brings.”
–Well then we have an even better explanation as to why Gurinder implores the world to burn books.

Ah, what a shrewd comeback!
Except GSD was talking about books on spirituality if I remember correctly.
He was right too. Ultimately, it’s inner experience that counts, not outer
ritual and worship of “holy books”. They can be figuratively burned… the
“Holy Bible”, “Sacred Torah”, “Blessed Koran”, “Great Granth” (oops, not
sure about Sikh adjectival preference). But, yep, all of them. Just keep
it a secret. The zealots might burn you at the stake.

Hi Um
You wrote
“Writing this I do remember the words of his uncle never, under no circumstance to critisize and judge others and especially those who are considered teachers etc.”
What is your concept of judgment?
We judge all the time. Generally our judgment is poor and should be applied mostly to ourselves. That’s what it is best used for. Meditation, if it is sincere, forces us to deal directly with ourselves.
But when we don’t want to accept a painful fact about ourselves, or we want to avoid our responsibility to speak out, or our duty to stop harm, then we turn our backs on that and say “we shouldn’t judge.”
This is all justification for weakness. If we would never teach a child to be dishonest, or greedy, then why defend it in a Guru?
Because there are so many false Gurus it is irresponsible for anyone to suggest we should never use our own judgment. You have misunderstood Maharaji.
We don’t know what Gurinder ‘s role in the theft of hundreds of millions really is. And he isn’t being forthright about it. He has been sarcastic, deflecting, and outright dishonest about the money he took.
Those are facts.
But to claim we shouldn’t judge is really to justify those bad behaviors in ourselves.
Because to accept this is wrong we must take a hard look at ourselves to acknowledge where we have been short of the mark.
And that’s painful. But to say we shouldn’t judge in the face of cold hard facts is being irresponsible, because you are saying that greed, theft and dishonesty are fine under the right circumstances, and that could just be whichever ones you choose.
When you actually reach those qualities Saints speak of, you become very bold. Harm to any part of the creation, especially to children, the poor, the weak, the victims, becomes impossible to accept even if all you can do is use your voice.
If you are completely ignorant of those things naturally it’s easy to turn your back and say ‘we shouldn’t judge’.
.

Well you know of course astrology does not interest everyone but I spent a good portion of my life in the past doing research on this subject…
At this time theres
Pluto planet in Capricorn…google it read up on it and form your own opinion.
I will lightly summarize and give you food for thought.
Pluto transforms and gets rid of old worn structures in our lives…
It destroys the no longer useful or necessary and when its done it allows new growth and new transformation.
Capricorn is foundations stabilities long termed political and spiritual systems that have been operating for centuries…all of it is now being tossed up for the next few years. Then it moves on to new issues.
Anything that is no longer good for us is being tossed up…so look at our planet govnmnt stuff and the religious things. Its all sifting up folks.
Theres more to come.
Its all coming to a head and the good sifts up and the outworn shall fall away..we may not like the process but this is not a time for leaders to lie deceive or pretend to be what they are not…it will discontinue and truth will abide. So hang on eat some popcorn watch the show and expect things you dont expect at this time to keep showing up. Its happening all over the world.
Expect global leaders to be friends that before were not and vice versa. New spiritual ideas to replace old worn out systems or parts of systems..I am not predicting situations who what when and where… just the planetary possibilities that seem to be occuring.
So let go of your old stuff and transform the phoenix bird and become that new person…let go of ideas that DO NOT WORK anymore.
Religious centers will shift how?
Watch the show it will come to light all of it.
Truths will prevail and lies will shine up for us all to see.
Gotta grab another popcorn bag…
Chy

@The Many
N-E-O
In reverse is O-N-E
The one who is going to save the world
It all hinges on the one.

@ osho lol. Hello bro
NEO in reverse is OEN lol.
You are obsessed with this oneness. Don’t think too much about it can t have been that cool – ie the Onesness if that power had to recreate duality.
Was God bored? Ask the big man when you speak to him.next at Haynes
Laters

BIG news coming up about Haynes Park satsang. I attended Friday and Saturday.
In two days I managed to hear exactly zero minutes of BabaJi’s words.
On the Friday it was because certain sevadars took my phone and refused to return it.
I specifically said “I wish to leave Haynes Park immediately and would like my property returned to me immediately. ”
They said I could have it after the satsang.
I explained that I am not staying, but am leaving immediately. Still they refused. So I said I would calk the police as this was theft of my phone.
I did in fact call the police exactly as promised.
The police explained to them that they have no right to hold onto my phone without my permission.
Anyway finally got my phone back at 3pm and was told that I am “banned” from Haynes Park and all satsangs.
As far as I know, nobody is banned from attending public satsangs.
But I guess there is always going to be a first.
Oh I forgot to mention the most important part.
I did take the phone into the tent despite the notices. Guilty as charged
I did also record about 5 minutes of the English speaker who did the satsang before the Q&A.
Because he seemed to say some interesting things. Once again, guilty as charged.
Two major crimes that gave the sevadars permission, in their mind to keep hold of my phone despite my request to have my phone back as I wish to leave Haynes.
One sevadar was forced to tell a lie in order to keep his seva.
The sevadars don’t care about what is “legal” they have their own rules that are above the law.
Why? Because they said so.

Oh sorry Dungeness. Didn’t know book burning was considered hateful Or not depending on the subject of the book.
Maybe make a list of topics that by burning one becomes a vehicle for the hate emotion.

Hi Arjuna
Well pointed out
I didn’t even notice
At least all the letters are there. I guess I get one point for that one, surely.
Seen another side of the way they handle people at Haynes.
Way out of order. I’m finished with that now. The sevadars at the top think they are god in human form

Sorry to hear that Osho. Consider yourself lucky- if you were at beas they may have given you a good hiding.
On a serious note glad you got out safe.
The common sevadars think they are special in the way they treat people and look down at others.
They would not do that to people like me in the street unless they wanted to go to hospital lol

Osho
Banned
Ohno
Say it ain’t so
From Oneness to Noneness

Spence:
“Writing this I do remember the words of his uncle never, under no circumstance to critisize and judge others and especially those who are considered teachers etc.”
Is this not an variation of Christs admonishment not to judge as it is found in his parabel of the eye and throwing stones?
What responsibility has the citizen to leave his house and throw stuff at the convict in the pillory? Responsibility lies with the authorities.
>>What is your concept of judgment?<< If I eat in restaurant and i say that I like or dislike the food on the plate, that would be a hudgement. If , based on that judgement i would state that the chef is a good or a bad chef, that too would be a judgement. His uncle advised to refrain from the last type of judgements. >>But when we don’t want to accept a painful fact about ourselves, or we want to avoid our responsibility to speak out, or our duty to stop harm, then we turn our backs on that and say “we shouldn’t judge.”<< Sometimes we are in a position that we indeed need to speak out and stop harm if we can, but not often. >>Because there are so many false Gurus it is irresponsible for anyone to suggest we should never use our own judgment. You have misunderstood Maharaji. << In that case he should have phrased his thoughts otherwise. You see, there is a difference between stating that one is not attracted to a certain guru emotionaly and/or intellectualy and acting accoringly and saying that this or that person is not a guru, a false one or of this or that level …. given that we cannot know if we re not at the same level. >>We don’t know what Gurinder ‘s role in the theft of hundreds of millions really is. And he isn’t being forthright about it. He has been sarcastic, deflecting, and outright dishonest about the money he took.<< We don't know and we need not to know, to do our own duties in whatever role we function. The qualifications are yours, they tell you, the beholder of hi actions. Those are facts. >>And that’s painful. But to say we shouldn’t judge in the face of cold hard facts is being irresponsible, because you are saying that greed, theft and dishonesty are fine under the right circumstances, and that could just be whichever ones you choose. << Whatever the facts are we need not to comment them. That is what Maharaj Ji stated time and again. All who where in his compagny know that. They often tried to force him to speak up about something or somebody but he never did. never! Maybe there is a difference between the words critize and judge ..

Oh sorry Dungeness. Didn’t know book burning was considered hateful Or not depending on the subject of the book.

Dude, do you seriously think GSD was encouraging anything other than
figuratively “burning the books” because they weren’t relevant to actual
spiritual experience…
This is the most puerile, obnoxious, and unimaginative kind of trolling I’ve
seen. Find some other topics to burn at the stake.

Hi Osho
Sorry about your phone.
I had a rough time as mentioned in an earlier blog in 2001 Petaluma…no police and I refused to hand over my phone and it was after satsang…the sevadar was very nasty ..i never got any photos or recordings. I had followed !! the rules and was shifting my purse and packages i had bought. In that the phone was shuffled…he saw it…
Others were snapping photos and everything wrong but did not get hassled.
Im tall may have stood out in the crowd who knows.
Anyway the love and wonderful feelings of my India prior experiences were not so at the Petaluma gathering.
Seems many just go to show their”devotion” and to be seen how successful and how much money they have now and look at me me me …its not the same as the old days…you may understand what I mean.
As well Im not destitute but am doing well and not in need of a come see me just genuinely went to see babaji.
Have not returned since. Too much confusion there now and god knows that was 2001….waaaay too much chaos for me.
Wishing them all well but the sevadars need to get out of their egos go to learn something not work thinking seva will get them god consciousness for a few days …lies on that note. Physical labor doesnt open the 10th door…yes I know somebody has to do the work thats the whole idea promise heaven mixed with free work… but folks that is a whole seperate deal from getting your 3rd eye open and getting “gods grace”…dont mix the 2…the sevadars can be gentler loving and watch for danger not every little thing..
Chy

Dungeness, you twist and turn in any way necessary to defend these rs gurus.
I’m making fun of you for never having anything to say that isn’t consistent mangod defense, not Gurinder’s lame suggestion/joke that his followers burn his books.
But please, get mad more. Ishwar Puri will save you if you believe.

@ Osho
Ever thought that you where targeted from above. This Oneness stuff is fairy made bullshit. You went too close to the flames and nearly started to expose the Con. You yourself got hoodwinked on that Oneness shite.
Hope you learn your lesson. They don’t want you there. Get over it and move on and see the whole this crumble. Oneness my arse.
Buckle up solider and eyes front!!

What do “you” mean that “you” were banned from “Haynes Park”?
There is no you. There is no location.
But on a serious note that really sucks but it’s entirely predictable. You probably could have tried pressing serious charges if they attempted to prohibit you from leaving. Also could have legally smashed them in the face to escape a kidnapping attempt if they tried holding you until after the satsang. That’s easily the most respectable response. Do it next time.
Didn’t you say that you’d never been to India before? Well now you know how non 2nd and 3rd generation nri’s do things. India is mostly based on a culture that operates on the exertion of power at all levels. There are no “laws” and no “order” outside of what you personally are able to impose on your surroundings and associates. Like all human systems it has its ups and downs.
Unless of course if it was a Brit who stole your phone in militant and illegal defense of an Indian guru. But that sounds nearly impossible.
No racism. Just sayin.

Hi Um
You wrote
“In that case he should have phrased his thoughts otherwise.”
He told us to use our best judgment.

As far as I know, nobody is banned from attending public satsangs.
But I guess there is always going to be a first.—Osho Robbins
Well, in theory nobody is banned from attending public satsangs if it is held in public property, even in RSSB as well in theory the instructions are that nobdy must be banned from attending the satsang though mostly it is held in their private property.
But if anybody defying the norms of the organization can be banned.
This is not the first time, I think it is quite normal, I have seen this ban many times in India and twice in Spain as well during the regime of Charan Singh.
Of Course the sevadars request with folded hands and if necessary with the group force.

“Of Course the sevadars request with folded hands and if necessary with the group force.”
Are you joking? I can’t tell.
The one time I was at dera there was a guy there who didn’t even look slightly Indian, but was I guess half Indian. I believe he was from Bosnia and was culturally Bosnian, had no relationship with Indian relatives, and held no Indian passport or anything else. He was staying in the foreigners accommodations and everything, too.
We were walking together and talking on our way to a morning satsang when suddenly security there aggressively hounded him and asked why he was trying to sneak into the foreign area and not the Indian or NRI part. They just hassled him like really amateur interrogators and finally let him in. It made no sense and I felt like there was a strong emphasis on looking tough and not knowing what to actually do as security.
Later when we all were going into the more private Q and A hall, we went through metal detectors and everything, but it was the sloppiest search we had to go through. Like they just barely waved the wand thing in our direction and let us all through.
I don’t know what there is to say. It’s a strange cult. You’re not supposed to give books from the org itself to people. You’re not allowed to take notes. Everything is recorded but nobody can hear the recordings. It’s racist but in different ways to different races. Indians can make money in the org via getting taxi gigs or being promoted by RSSB as preferred travel agents, they get almost all the “good seva”, they’re told their history is better and the west is garbage, but yet they can’t sit up front at satsangs.
It’s like a dysfunctional regimented military monastery that formally speaks out against monasticism for no good reason at all (it’s because monks don’t donate), and there are insane security guards harassing people all over, breaking laws and stealing phones inside the monasteries. And after the banal spiritual talk, the guru kicks the monks out to go be depressed alone at home, fretting over rennet.
Can’t say it sounds like a really normal and healthy response to other religions, unless you’re of the modern thinking that believes compounding problems actually solves them.

But please, get mad more. Ishwar Puri will save you if you believe.

Right, getting “mad” doesn’t help one whit. Nor will all the trolling
to get a rise. Even negative emotion is good though if directed
at GIHF… so bravo 🙂
But the mystic’s point is that nothing outside is gonna save you. Not
some holy book, not doing a bazillion rounds of simran, or gobs of
seva, or even praying to a blessed guru who’s gonna magically lift
ya to higher realms at death.
It’s your spiritual awareness and progress within that empowers and
saves you. The physical master is a prop to remind ya of the initial
busywork given to set you in the right direction. The right direction
is inside ya. But, you protest “The books say yada, yada, …” The mystic
smiles and answers “Burn the books!”

My opinion only: The true path that santmat advocates is solely an internal journey. One does not have to leave home to return “home.” Why on earth would anyONE wish to put themselves through all the hassles of going to a huge satsang, only to hear an inane discourse by some sevadar, then listen to, sometimes very sad and emotional, questions, and sometimes thought provoking questions from followers. All Judgements by me, I am not sorry for. They are just my opinions. Charan Singh, emphasised, on numerous occasions (I have read, when I used to read the santmat books) that there is no need to travel to India, or anywhere in fact in order to see the “guru!” For the true “guru” resides within. But as we all know, millions of santmat followers still need an external Master. Then let them. If it generates love, and makes living life better, then Radha Soami to The Many!😇🙏 OB-ONE-K-NO-BE

” Fretting over rennet”
Jesse that blog made me laugh so hard I had tears…youve got a gift brother!..
Chy

“But the mystic’s point is that nothing outside is gonna save you. ”
This is simply not true in the radha soami tradition, so I guess you’re not including them in “the” mystics.

Yeoh Osh!
Banned !! ? That’s a bugger!
We need to get you back in there asking those interesting questions (like the fella you covertly recorded).
How about you retrieve that sacred thread and loin cloth from your attic storage and disguise yourself as a sadhu to get back in?
Or, you could cunningly sneak up to the head sevadar and bribe them with a tasty vegan treat and they would have to let you in 🙂
Best wishes

Lots of talk about Ishwar Puri lately. Here he discusses these so called controversies that Masters get into. Have a listen.
https://ytcutter.com/tmp/Ishwar%20C.%20Puri%20_%20Community%20Meeting%20_%20Grayslake_%20IL%20_%2016Aug2019%20_%20Part%201_2%200s%20-%2010m50s%20(8ABELW0Gte8).m4a

The sevadar who originally “clocked me”
Was asked what happened.
Now the thing was, I’d spoken to him while I was waiting for my phone and he was an okay guy. In fact he started feeling bad for taking the phone and wished he hadn’t. He was very fearful of losing his seva.
So when asked to say what had happened, I was surprised when he said
“I don’t want to say it…. “
I naturally asked “ what exactly don’t you want to say, just say it.”
He then said that I had threatened to “kick him in the nuts”.
Not a phrase I would ever use.
Naturally I denied it.
The sevadar then said “I would rather believe my sevadar than you”
Of course it was just too obvious what was going on. I had seen the sevadar have a meeting with this higher up sevadar just a few minutes earlier. So he had obviously told him to tell this lie when asked if he wishes to keep his seva.
So that sevadar said it hesitatingly because he was clearly having a conflict about if he should lie in order to save his seva.
If it was me, I would have simply spoken the truth and handed the sevadar my badge and walked away with a clear conscience. To me, that would be the only course of action possible. But that’s because I would not be desperate to keep my seva.
Someone who is desperate to keep his seva can be bribed.
Of course if I was desperate, I too could be bribed.
So the sevadar lied to save his seva, and that was predictable and there was a brief moment when he could break out, that would change his life. Stand for truth instead of lying.
It’s not “wrong” as such. He only did what he was programmed to do. Neither is the higher up sevadar “wrong” as he too was only doing what he was programmed to do.
Liars lie. Thieves steal. It’s the way their life has programmed them. So even in the midst of all this happening against me I am saying it was all inevitable and unavoidable. Each person is acting according to the way they are programmed including me.
So all this was all happening perfectly, despite the fact that at that moment it was not in my favour.
Or was it?
It was only against me if I am desperate to step this “calamity” from happening
But it’s seriously not a calamity. I was actually quite happy watching all this unfold. It was entertaining watching how it all happens. Only if I have no agenda.
In this case I have no agenda, because I don’t care in the slightest about being “banned” as such.
I can’t be hurt by banning me. The sevadar picked on the wrong guy. I just find the whole thing entertaining. Gives me something to write about.
Of course I am not going to “stay banned”
I am going to test this to see what happens next. I am going to see how far this corruption at the top goes.
Obviously the higher up sevadar has a hold on the lower down sevadar that enables him to force him to lie.
So the lower sevadar chose that path because he was desperate to save his seva.
There is no free will here. Nobody can break free unless he stops caring to save his seva. The higher up sevadar is just as bound because he wants me to be banned at any cost.
Each is doing whatever they are doing to get the outcome they want.
Drop the outcome and it becomes a game. That’s why I found the whole thing entertaining and laughable. Including “me”
I am also part of the entertainment. If I stop, the entertainment stops.
That too is an option. I can stay banned.
I am not desperate to go to satsang. My spiritual future is not in satsang.
If it was I would be begging him not to ban me.
And that is what is getting to that sevadar. He wants power over everyone. He has it over the Sevadars because they want their seva
He thinks he got “a result”
But he has no idea what that result is yet. Neither do I.
That’s the only thing that makes it worth playing. Because in reality nobody including me is doing anything here of any real significance.
It’s all a divine joke that we all take our personal agenda so seriously.
As I walked away from Haynes Park, I was with my cousin. He had patiently waited two hours after satsang for me.
I had made it clear to the sevadars that I had a lift with someone to come to Haynes and he has a child with him. I don’t want to put him out.
They probably thought I was lying. But I wasn’t. I have told the truth from beginning to end.
I have no reason to lie. I confessed my “big sin” openly from the start. I lied about nothing.
That’s what gives this whole thing credence. I have no agenda that would make me lie. I won’t lie for any outcome because I am not desperate for any outcome.
Am I bothered about “being banned”?
Not in the slightest. Just as I had no care in the world when I was banned as a speaker,
My cousin asked me if I was upset about being banned from satsang.
“Upset? Do I look upset?”
I am about as upset as when I was banned from being a speaker.
In fact I will be the only person who has been banned from both giving satsang and attending satsang.
This “satsang” thing clearly “has it in for me” or so it seems
I hope you all find it as entertaining as I do.
Because it’s about to be upped up a notch.
I don’t let sleeping dogs lie.
I like a little entertainment.
Hey maybe the baba is doing exactly the same, just a thought.
Stay tuned as the next episode unfolds.
This was Friday.
Saturday was a whole new day with a whole new adventure.
Just like every episode of batman I watched as a child ( the one with Adam playing Batman)
“ tune in tomorrow to see what happens
Same bat-time same bat-channel”
But don’t take it literally as “tomorrow” and call me a liar when it doesn’t happen tomorrow.
Till next time,
Over and out from “The ONE”

That is sad Osho,
A net loss proposition.
After being caught with the mistake,
you could have simply solved the issue by being apologetic
But you made it worse by calling police into a private matter.
The game of Ego:
We are harsh on others’ mistakes,
And forgiving on our mistakes.
If we revert this, we can progress quickly.

Page 126 of gurbani
Paap pun doi Bhai
Duno milkey shisht upayee
Sin and virtue both brothers
Both met and created the world
Kill them both and enter the house of “The ONE”
With the gurus teaching you will enter the state of sehaj.
This is the same thing playing out right now in this incident.
There is no good and bad here
Only by dropping both
Taking a distant position and observing
Will you enter the house of ONE

Gurbani talks in riddles so seems nonsense unless you understand what it’s getting at.
On the way to Haynes we got lost. No sevadars there, no help. Everyone lost on the wrong road queueing up.
Then we reversed and found the right route. Now there are sevadars everywhere even where not needed.
For example they say “go straight” when there is no right or left turn anyways
I said my my cousin “this is what it’s like”
The lost people are totally lost and no help
Once you “get it” even all the gurbani confirms like these sevadars “yes carry on straight” but now you don’t need the direction
Where were they when you was lost

To Osho.
That sevadar situation is disgusting.
Your phone..its not a weapon ..you should have been treated respectfully…absolutely terrible childish egomaniacal situation…the RS group has gotton waaaay too big and the people just cant handle it anymore…
If you want to go again then go…they wont put you through a remembrance. They will forget you…it will be new sevadars.. lifes course will change…but this is like from the dark ages…better off staying home and thinking of old good memories.
So sorry these things are happening when you or anyone was not bringing danger to the satsang..
Chy

There’s only One, Osho Robbins
One Osho Robbins 😎

Good question Osho..
It seems there is no help in such moments..
But who knows..there is always help,just behind the corner at the right time and the right place??
Who ”knows”??

Oh what a tangled web we weave!

Dear Chy,
It is very simple to understand,
that it was not remotely being perceived as danger.
Everyone is going there to listen to the Satsang and not the smartphone ringtones.
It is just about maintaining the decorum of a place,
and following the said guidelines.
To your earlier question:
No, the hospital setup by Hazur Charan Singh Ji is fully functional and completely free of cost.
details here: https://www.rssb.org/hosp_msschBeas.html
here is the list of currently running 4 multi-speciality charitable hospitals:
https://www.rssb.org/hospitals.html

Hey Jesse,
You need to wake up to a couple of realities
– Non-punjabis make up a huge portion of followers
– any supposed fall in Western interest in RSSB continues to be made good by the south east Asian influx. Yes you read it right – the Koreans, Japos, Indonesians etc. It’s amazing the numbers one sees in Beas.
Point being as is always said it’s the Master who seeks out his marked souls and not the other way around.

Is this thread the longest in CotC history🤔

Jen from Austin–
The Ishwar link goes to “404 Not Found,” at least for me. Could you re-post it please and maybe add the title of the clip as a backup to find by search?

One initiated.
Maybe I didn’t make it clear.
I owned up immediately and apologised.
I could have done nothing more.
Remember all I had recorded was 5 minutes of an English speaker
How is that an issue
Second thing. I called the police because they refused to return my property.
I said I wanted to leave. So why didn’t they return my phone and let me leave
I also made it clear that I would call the police before I did so. They didn’t care about breaking the law.
Also no ringtones phone was in airplane mode
When have you ever heard a. Ringtone in satsang

All this intelligence wasted on some suspect PLM GSD.
Instead all you intelligent brothers and sisters ought to explore a masterpiece Indian Guru who goes by the name Swami Nityanand.
And pls do throw light on his utterances that is if you understand them.
Cheers

Hey Osho, how’s it going!
You write: “So the sevadar lied to save his seva, and that was predictable and there was a brief moment when he could break out, that would change his life. Stand for truth instead of lying.”
“Of course it was just too obvious what was going on.”
“Liars lie. Thieves steal. It’s the way their life has programmed them”
” I am going to see how far this corruption at the top goes.”
Errrm, I feel like I really should be highlighting the obvious here……some rattled sevadars taking your phone & concocting lies about it, really is just a drop in the ocean compared to the behaviours that have been committed by Gurinder himself, and that you are not interested in & say is irrelevant? Further, all these extreme rules & regulations (which, btw, are arguably reasonable) have been requested & authorised by Gurinder himself. Why blame sevadars for trying to follow the rules their own cult leader has set them?
Indeed, you appear to excuse Gurinder’s exceptional greed, fraudulent behaviour & avoidance of addressing the issue (of the fraud he profited obscenely from, at least until karma caught up with him 🙂 openly and honestly, instead choosing to discuss issues of the “ONE” with him. That’s all fair enough, but I wonder why you don’t have the same interest in discussing the “ONE” with these 2 sevadars who took your phone & lied about it? Are they any more, or less, “ONE” than Gurinder? Are they any more, or less, AWARE they are part of “ONE” than Gurinder?
I’m just wondering why apply double standards? I see no reason to assume any level of difference between Gurinder and these 2 lying sevadars (well, except the obvious…..the lies of the 2 sevadars were probably based on a misguided sense of duty, whereas Gurinder’s fraud was probably based on an extreme sense of greed & being impervious to the law/karma).
I have asked the question a few times of many people now and don’t seem to have received a satisfactory response; precisely what is it, other than the fact he was chosen to lead the family business by his uncle (who was himself someone who admitted he had no spiritual knowledge, and made numerous judgemental errors during his life!), that suggests Gurinder knows any more about the “ONE” than my local dustbin men do?
I find it amusing that you may well have learnt more about the “ONE” from these 2 deceptive sevadars than you ever will from the actor on stage!

The full story is coming soon.
It’s gets much much more interesting.
Ends up in premeditated assault.
Instigated by the sevadars
And when I am saying I want to leave Haynes Park, six people grab me physically and take me where nobody can see and physically assault me by punching me in the face.
They think nobody will find out but don’t realise the power of truth. I am known by many of the old satsangis. I don’t tell lies. If I say it – it’s the truth regardless of if it works against me.
And people who know me know this
I am not a violent person.
Okay I did accept anami’s challenge to combat in jest
That’s about the extent of any violence in me.
Whereas the sevadars in question might have a history of violence, who knows.
The matter will go all the way to the top to the guru himself. I have more than enough support to do this from satsangis who know me and my father and family
Don’t forget my father was only of the early uk satsangis from 1963.

Lots of talk about Ishwar Puri lately. Here he discusses these so called controversies that Masters get into. Have a listen.

Ishwar mentions the “scandal” in the 30’s when the papers suggested hanky-panky
between Great Master and his three sevadar bibi’s.
Here’s an alleged discussion that arose inthe back alleys of yesteryear…
latter to become a breeding ground for the CofC:
–They got him this time… a menage a trois, oops, I mean a menage a
quatre, at that so-called Dera.
–Ya know, don’t remember where, but I heard one of those bibi’s is a
bit underage.
–Gawd, that perv!
–Whaddya expect, all Guru’s are sexual predators, scammers, low-life’s.
–Seriously, he just remains silent, Hey, it’s our duty to call him out on it.
He’s a proven fake and effectively runs a crime family… trafficking in
young, innocent bibi’s. We need an intervention. He’ll confess what’s
happened, then we’ll gather round and find a way to pay off the civil
suits. We can be a family again! Poor but happy!
–Nah, he’s done the crime, gotta do the time. No more of this cream-
puff stuff, there’s a new sheriff in town. Once, the scoundrel’s history we’ll
vet a few decent blokes for the sheep to vote on. They need our help
here to understand spirituality.
—You will agree though we should visit him in prison and show our love.
–I suppose… but “tough love” and no young girls. They say “once a predator,
always a predator”.
–Shouldn’t we wait till he’s convicted of pedophilia or something?
–Oh, hell no. Are you blind to what’s going on… or just plain stupid?

Hi Manjit
Osho Robbins, the One of All Oneness has Double Standards???
What is the Creation coming to???

Osho R wrote: “Who is the harjit Singh you refer to?”
Hey Osho – Harjit Singh lives (or at least used to) in Southall…….he claims to be a successor to Faqir Chand. No connection to RSSB at all. I had a very interesting & long discussion with him on the phone about 20 years ago (when I was having my own “awakening” experiences), give me a call sometime I’ll tell you all about it! Youtube satsangs of Faqir Chand with Harjit Singh present can be found here (there’s a few more I think):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRzT0qpbIqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj7tuv7r8FE
Different level stuff about the RS practice & experience to anything you will ever hear Gurinder say, imo. Listen to them!
Re. your latest….wow! You definitely have to tell us more about this, I’ll call to get the names ha 🙂 Anyway, sounds like you got out of there safe & well thank goodness! 🙂

PS Osho – I believe that nothing at all will come of you taking this matter “all the way to the top”. You really need to consider the situation Gurinder himself is in, alleged death threats from his goons et al.
I believe you may be over-estimating Gurinder’s basic decency & concern for individuals in his sangat, whilst under-estimating the almost supernatural irony of the situation….

Osho R: “” I am going to see how far this corruption at the top goes.””
I’m sorry, this is my 4th post now…….but I’m really struggling to comprehend why you, Osho R, haven’t noticed, or at least noted, the supreme irony of this situation?
You are surprised by the conspiracy, lies, intimidation & physical attack by satsangis of Gurinder, in respect of you disobeying GURINDER’S edict to not have phones, take notes, record etc in satsang, and them taking your phone?
I was sure you’d been participating in the discussions about Gurinder here over the past few months?
What part of the behaviours you encountered by devoted satsangis of Gurinder, does not reflect in some way all that we have learnt about Gurinder himself, and that you have excused? These satsangis are doing a SPLENDID job in emulating their Master! We all know the story of the guy who meditated on a bison, then imagined he couldn’t fit through a doorway because his horns were too big!
I too, like yourself, believe all is ONE (without forgetting that there is multiplicity in Oneness, and Oneness in multiplicity). There is in your recent experiences, imo, strong hints of ONE story being told, but across multiple levels…….

Anami here’s the actual link. listen to the first 10 minutes.
https://youtu.be/8ABELW0Gte8

The sect is in dire need of a Guru like Maharaj Jagat Singh.
The Gurudom must move out of the family and I hope it passes to one with no family.
See what wonders a man with no to little family has done to India. Replicate this model.

Osho,
You think anything good will come out just because the matter reaches GSD?
Why doesn’t this high handedness by Sevadars not surprise me?
Security Sevadars are in breach of law – probably might have even deaths on their hands in the garb of protecting the interests and/or providing security/protection to Guru and Sangat.

None of it would’ve happened to Osho if Haynes Park had an Open Thread.

Jen from Austin Texas wrote: “Anami here’s the actual link. listen to the first 10 minutes.
https://youtu.be/8ABELW0Gte8“
Wow, having listened to the first 10 mins of this talk, I am astonished anyone could take any of this seriously.
First of all, as far as I’m aware the tale of Bulleh Shah that Ishwar recounts seems to me to be a corruption of a story actually about Kabir told in Ananta-Das’s “Kabir Parachai”, where Kabir puts water in a wine-holder and keeps the company of a prostitute, as part of a larger story? Bulleh Shah of course is said to have learnt to look, dress and dance like a prostitute by a prostitute so that he could dance for his own Master.
But more importantly, I cannot believe anybody could take such a story seriously, especially in context of the many modern scandals surrounding RS gurus!
It of course goes without saying that such a story can & indeed is literally used as justification to turn a blind eye to WHATEVER abuses an alleged “Satguru” commits. It is precisely this story that was used by initiates of Thakar Singh when he sexually abused female initiates during initiation, or the crimes of Ram Rahim, and today by satsangis of RSSB and Gurinder. It is literally a call to mind-less-ness. Don’t think, just believe!
It is also no surprise that Ishwar would like to tell this story, as he himself was notoriously removed from being an official RSSB speaker BY RSSB several decades ago due to multiple & imo credible claims of sexual impropriety with young female satsangis!
Of course, all this is just the mysterious ways of magical masters, keeping away the insincere seekers, right?
Wrong. Even Ishwar seems unconvinced when he adds his own twist to the story and says something like “his disciples said, but you are keeping the seekers away too, and Bulleh Shah said “why are you still here, then?”
Think about what Ishwar is actually saying for a moment. He is actually saying genuine & sincere seekers will be kept away, but mindless believers will remain – there is no other way to rationally interpret the consequences of Ishwar’s spin on this story!
I mean, obviously so – what will genuine, sincere seekers who have no religious, sunken-cost fallacy, believer devotion to whatever family member is on the gaddhi, think about Gurinder & all the news about him? Especially when there are literally HUNDREDS of teachers who believe and repeat the same concepts as RSSB? Attracted to the teachings, possibly, but attracted to this semi-billionaire accused of fraud and worse, with no actual personal story or history of being a mystic of any sort?
I find Ishwar’s use of this story to be incredibly troubling, and deeply lacking in wisdom or insight into the world. I find it simply to be a mindless defence & rationalisation of indefensible & hypocritical behaviour that lacks any integrity, honesty or conscious “crazy-wisdom” intent.
As for his comments about the superiority of “Great Masters Spirituality” to entheogen use, well that is also quite laughable, and even more so based in fundamental ignorance of the subject. Dropping the names of Alpert and Leary (genuine, original legends, both of them!) aside. He presumably doesn’t notice the irony that he had to covertly seduce young women during satsang, whereas these guys could do it openly & without lying both to themselves and to others……such was their honesty, integrity, passion for truth etc!! 🙂

To Mike:
“longest thread in CofC history”.
Looks like were off the subject…its gone into” malicious sevadars”…and now
“Sexuality of the Masters”….new title for Brians next book ….Just kidding Brian…….It should be with varying opinions on if they had or have one or not….
If anyone knows facts! not hearsay or angry women at RS making exaggerated accusations false accusations ….$$ talks accusations but have truth to share who said what did what when and where then inform the feed here…most of it sounds like assumptions so far from what I read…
Yes anythings possible so speak be honest and fair . We are all ears rather eyes for reading
Chy

Manjit with all due respect you missed Ishwar’s point. He was pointing out that these masters DID NOT do the things they may look to others like they dId.He did not do anything but walk with the woman and it looked like something else to others. And same with great master.
Anyways I don’t know much about Ishwar Puri but just shared it as i think it’s interesting.
Draw your own conclusions. Good day

“First of all, as far as I’m aware the tale of Bulleh Shah that Ishwar recounts seems to me to be a corruption of a story actually about Kabir told in Ananta-Das’s “Kabir Parachai”,”
I’ve seen similar stories in Buddhist compilations. Tests for disciple stories involving hookers and cocaine or whatever is pretty standard and I don’t even know if we could pinpoint the origins. And anyway, Ishwar Puri is a grifter.
But Gurinder isn’t testing his disciples. He’s straight the F up embroiled in corporate scandal. It’s not like one day he met some RS devotees in an office and a sting operation happened by chance that same day. He’s spent decades in “the dark” doing god knows what.
If a convincing multilayered Zen/Bhakti devotion test can be woven from his experience, I’ll join RSSB again.

“Hey Jesse,
You need to wake up to a couple of realities
Blah Blah blah”
Go outside with a list of religions and Indian guru sects including RSSB or any Radha Soami sect . Ask people what they are. Come back to me and admit that you have no idea what you’re saying when they all say “what is radha soami? it sounds dumb.”
I spend a lot of time in India and most people there don’t know even what radha soami is, or they confuse it with one of the million other guru cults. You think some thousands in Asia is significant? There are probably more Mormons in North Korea than there are satsangis in Indonesia.
And by the way Korea and Japan aren’t southeast Asia. You’re thinking of Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Mayanmar, Vietnam, and yes, Indonesia, but they’re weird.

“The matter will go all the way to the top to the guru himself. I have more than enough support to do this from satsangis who know me and my father and family ”
Oh no. You’re doing the “DO YOU KNOW WHO MY FATHER IS?!?!?!?” thing?
There’s an historical Gurdwara in Delhi called Sis Ganj that I used to go to sometimes. One time I was sitting near the back there listening to some really soft kirtan when a Marathi man sat next to me and started chatting about god knows what. I didn’t know much about the area surrounding the temple, and in India if you’re foreign you often meet “odd” people so I didn’t think much of it. Meeting odd fellows is one of the perks actually, but can get annoying when you’re in a temple.
But this dude kept talking, so I asked him to come outside so we wouldn’t disturb others who were quietly ignoring the kirtan in favor of whatsapp content inside the house of god. Anyway, while we were sitting outside he went and got khara prasad to share with me. As he broke it in half and reached over to give me a piece one of the security guys who hold the big spears ran over and grabbed him sort of violently. The kid starting yelling “do you know who my father is!!!” as he was dragged outside and thrown onto the sidewalk.
The security man came back and told me that there are a lot of heroin addicts in that area of Chandni Chowk, and that it’s not unheard of to hear of them poisoning food and prasad in order to rob people. He didn’t ask if maybe I wanted to get high. Rude?
I’m not saying you’re a crackhead trying to poison people to buy drugs, Osho. I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying that your family probably isn’t going to take down this billionaire guru just cause an overzealous volunteer punched you in the mouth, just like that druggie kids father didn’t stop his ass from hitting the concrete after he tried to share what was most likely perfectly normal prasad with me in an act of social harmony.

Well on Ishwar Puri.
A speaker at RSSB is not a master to start that can be anyone who can explain the teachings and deliver a satsang that is asked to give satsang.
When great master passed the will to m. Charan singh and the Dera as we all know THE WILL.
He the great master asked Ishwar who was a disciple of his at a very young age to come to the west and spread sant mat.
The west is gaining spirituality and the east is becoming more material and gaining in that direction..some words to that effect.
So after the transition Ishwar got an inner direction to initiate and did for some time. Then he quit because he felt there is no one like the great master and he did not want to be responsible for the souls.
Now hes 93 or so I think….many years in the USA spreading the word.
He has a family. He worked all his life made good money and still giving satsangs..posted this since so many wondering about him. .
Chy

Jesse
Nice try shifting your position.
To quote you
“I’ve never met a non Punjabi in my life who has ever heard of radha soami.
Nobody has heard of them let alone agrees about their “pure spiritual character.”
Never met a non Punjabi in your life and nobody has heard to now most in India ……. What a shame. But it’s ok.
Keep posting!!
Spend a lot of time in India huh…. LOL.

Hey Chy,
Are you able to back up what you say with facts i.e. the Great Master asked Ishwar to spread sant mat in the west. If this is indeed true then (1) RSSB would recognise this (to the best of my knowledge it doesn’t) and (2) Ishwar wouldn’t be any different from the other authorised to initiate. Still stuck on the Great Master when the gaadi has passed on.
And hey what crime has Maharaj Jagat Singh committed that he isn’t referenced in between Great Master and Hazur? I know that Great Master did mention that Jagat would be for a short while as Hazur wasn’t ready then (or something to that effect)
Maharaj Jagat Singh both an ideal Sevadar and Master!!!!!!!!
Btw – you must hear Ishwar on Aakashic Records. It’s an interesting discourse. And hey I love listening to him.

To read
Great Master did mention to Jagat that he would have to even though for a short while as Hazur wasn’t ready then (or something to this effect)

If a convincing multilayered Zen/Bhakti devotion test can be woven from his experience, I’ll join RSSB again.
You are better off outside RSSB. Though am sure GSD will ignore all that you said here and elsewhere against RSSB, him and his family and warmly welcome you back if you ever decide to.

Ra-ONE said,
All this intelligence wasted on some suspect PLM GSD.
Instead all you intelligent brothers and sisters ought to explore a masterpiece Indian Guru who goes by the name Swami Nityanand.
And pls do throw light on his utterances that is if you understand them.
Cheers
Is this guy for real?? GIHF, PML of just God is he???
https://youtu.be/OzMRbC8uH2w

Hi SP.
back up…my rememberences Ishwar somewhere along the line said this and others in the olden days…so if this is the case….and I heard it right then your blog would be accurate assumption. I dont have legal documents any different than whats available for all to see…no secret proofs.
As well I heard that m. Jagat singh was an interim. As m. Charan was not ready yet…what ready means..for gods sake maybe he was finishing up having children..dont worry about all this just learn from all the teachers..Jagat singh ..he was a unique master. I dont know much about him all good.
I met one of his disciples visiting CA in the 70s…very balanced stable individual very “on the path” as one would say.
Now I was initiated by m. Charan singh..my parents as well…
So Ishwar I find to be very interesting and who the heck am I to say what he has achieved spiritually…To my knowledge he never claimed that THE WILL from great master involving the Dera was to go to him…his dad Lekh Raj carried on the Dera work for m. Charan ….as we all saw upon visiting the Dera…but again that is not the person to ask about his son…anyway hes deceased now.
If you were initiated by m. Charan singh then I believe in so many words your butts covered…Ishwar wont reinitiate but seems hes helping tryint to help a lot of RS satsangis understand things in more detail from a intellectual perspective as well. M. Charan just came ( from the heart ) all love and devotion and I felt this in his presence and he seemed to get caught up in everyones daily problem solving advices…rarely ane NEW QUESTIONS.
So take it all in and dont worry about it.. Its all good SP…thats why we are on this blog here to open doors for each other.
Chy

I love how easy it is romanticize history. Jaimal Singh was asked personally by Soami Ji to spread the teachings to the Punjab. Just like Sawan Singh told Ishwar Puri to go to the West to spread the teachings.
Anyone see the trend here? Kirpal Singh said Sawan Singh looked in Kirpal’s eyes and transferred “something” to him.
It’s all a bunch of stories to justify “the Position”, the gaddi. The way I see it, my opinion here folks, there probably is merit in the teachings and/or the method. Apparently, doesn’t matter who gives you the instructions.

SP are you joking about Nityanand? He was caught on camera boinking some random chicks while he goes on tour talking about Brahmacharya. That guy is the lowest guru of them all. He also says he’s going to use some sort of magical science to clone magical cows or something. A real idiot.
Plus he’s fat as all hell now. Doesn’t even have basic self control or self respect. And anyone who wears costumes that are not only not traditional, but just outright stupid looking and seem as if they were purchased from a shop for theater gear is more of a circus clown.

Osho, do you believe that this incident is divine will?
Or is it divine will that you do something? Like file a simple charge of assault? Then a judge can hear the matter and render a decision.
Or you could decide that this was old Karma and Baba Ji was helping you get rid of it, which will help in your liberation.
Or you could decide that this was a challenge to your capacity to accept whatever happens.
Everyone will look at this differently, based on their psychology. But the real issue is what is your duty?
My take is that IF you neither verbally abused them nor provoked physical violence with some visible physical threat (like swinging first) then I think there are at least two options under the category of ‘what is the right thing to do?’
The first is your duty as a citizen to file a formal police complaint. As a member of society you have a duty to protect your brothers and sisters in whatever small way you can. This also helps the Sangat.
The second is that, if you will not do the first, then you should formally apologize to the sevadar who hit you, or absent that, to the Sangat. This is because you have chosen to let them get away with it, and in so doing are contributing to the problem.

Jesse: “SP are you joking about Nityanand?”
No, SP, presumably somebody with a (familial) connection to RSSB & Gurinder, was mocking RA-One’s mention of Nityananda.
I would note, RA-One was probably referring to the Kriya yoga Swami Nityananda Giri, or Muktananda’s guru Bhagwan Nityananda…….NOT the Nithyananda you and SP appear to be referring to?
PS – re the Haynes punching incident, having spoken to Osho R, I can assure you it actually happened and is far more interesting than what has been revealed so far. I advise Osho R caution and discernment on the matter! Re the tough guy talk, I get the sentiment, but context is very important. I am certain, personally, that Osho was less “frightened” and full of fear than the attackers, and I think his behaviour was exemplary, and probably the right thing to do in the context. It’s not about being scared imo. I will let him tell the story. That said, acting tough is easy. So is finding yours or someone else’s life changed forever in an instant over the pettiest of things. It’s not about bravery or strength, but intelligence.
Dear Jen from AT – Nah, I think I understand both yours and Ishwar’s intent and meaning in sharing that story very, very well. Not sure you understood my point though, but never mind, I never expected you to 🙂 Have a most delightful day indeed! 🙂

Manjit I did hear your point loud and clear. But like I said your interpretation vs my interpretation. Thankfully we are all entitled to one. 😊

I guess I missed the first part of the Nityananda talk, Manjit. The guru in the video is a real jokester who selects only the finest of females.
And I’m not seriously telling Osho to punch anyone in the face unless he really gets down like a chav. Of course in that context there’s little to gain from wrecking someone’s face, no matter how badly they deserve it.
I’m still holding onto my prediction of Radha Soami riots in the near future. In less than 5 years from now I’d guess. It’s a bloated org that seems ready to blow off some steam.

Hi SP.
Please help me seriously to see what you are trying to convey on Swami Nityananda…..
What do you feel he has given you or that we on the blog could use to know…?
He is interesting and loves gold chairs and statues of gold and Rudraksha beads… I like those things too…
Let me in on your discovery..
Chy

Hi
Jesse.
Im half slav as well….not that it matters but its around.
Anyway I am very concerned about Dera possible unrest in the next few years as you mentioned particularly if babaji dies or is incapable of managing the sheep around there…the whole area there in India for miles around is in a tense emotional state.
M. Charan put a hospital there for many reasons…….
So lets wish the best for the area and peace around the Dera area amongst the people and it may go on well. Its very crowded in there and lots of shifting viewpoints from 30 or 40 more years back…
Just in response to your last blog on riots possibility…
Lets all send good energy to the area.
There was a lot of love there when I went 70s and 80s…I havent been since then….tons of people now..whew..
Chy

Hey Chy,
It’s worthwhile you plan a visit to Dera maybe later this year itself when foreigners visit and see for yourself the Dera transformation, how well controlled Dera is despite it’s growth (possible only because of the master) and the political and emotional stability that largely prevails for miles around there. And yes the love and devotion amongst the sangat is intact. Yes it’s close to the border with Pakistan and that’s a threat. Low possibility though.
Crowds have grown – yes. But as privileged westerners how does that concern you? You will be insulated from them.
Now repeating myself visit Dera……..

Hey Chy,
On Nityanand, have nothing really except that he is a good stress buster. Despite his gibberish, he has followers which makes me wonder (rarely) do I miss something profound he says. Not that I am likely to shift allegiance to him.
Happy with my current beliefs.

Hi SP.
thank you for the infos…I wont be able to get back to India this year..too many blocks for me at the moment and travelling so far alone…..but good to hear your opinion that so far so good around there…its like homeland from my old memories…would hate to see somethings happen.
The world has a lot of tension these days and we just never know what is going to happen next. I can see where some folks feel some unrest could happen…
Well you take care now..
Chy

Chy,
It’s a shame you can’t make it. But I can tell you if you really wish, the blocks will make way and the journey will not be to some far away land. Believe me.
If you haven’t been to Dera since the 70’s/80’s your eyes gonna pop out even before you hit Beas station (that small Kothi near the station still exists btw) – what will welcome you is a station voted the cleanest in India, a road that matches the best expressway in India. If our trips match, we could even go for some pizzas at Beas station.
Almost nothing from the 70’s/80’s remains – so the old Dera would just be in your memories – like with me.
Till this day I keep narrating what Dera used to be back then and probably will till I die.
Travel to Beas is a breeze now – well connected by road, railways and airways. 24×7 Dera taxi facility if one reaches at an odd hour. GSD has been doing a lot to make it somewhat easy for the sangat coming.
Non-believers (friends and acquaintances) who have visited say they couldn’t believe such a place could exist in India.
Infact all in here the Jesse, Manjit, Osho, Spence, Brian etc should visit the Dera. If all together better it would be.

SP, you wrote: “Crowds have grown – yes. But as privileged westerners how does that concern you? You will be insulated from them.”
So much wrong with that statement I don’t know where to begin. I absolutely love the the last line: You will be insulated from them. THEM. The ones who sit over a mile from the stage, poor, sitting with love at the back of the shed.
I would love to see what would happen if the “westerners” had to sit in the back of the shed.
Or for that matter, the NRI’s.

RA-One wrote: “All this intelligence wasted on some suspect PLM GSD.
Instead all you intelligent brothers and sisters ought to explore a masterpiece Indian Guru who goes by the name Swami Nityanand.”
Hi RA-One – I fear you may have overestimated the intelligence of the brothers and sisters here? 🙂
For, whilst it appears you refer to a Swami Nityanand, those lacking sufficient clarity may confuse either of the 2 well known Nityanands (Giri & Bhagwan) with the pop-guru Swami NitHyanand (notice the H in the name, folks!). They may also ignore attempts to clarify their confusion, as that may not suit their purposes, of which honesty, accuracy, truth etc does not seem to be a component!
Hi “SP” – you write: “Infact all in here the Jesse, Manjit, Osho, Spence, Brian etc should visit the Dera. If all together better it would be.”
What with all the recent news about Gurinder and his cronies, some of which I personally know to be true (Osho’s story), that sounds like a threat to me? Is that a threat? 🙂
Why should I come to Beas, “SP”, because they have a nice transport system, and non-vegan eateries on site? Are you joking? Why don’t I instead take the advice of my friends who recommend I visit Dubai, with it’s opulence & luxury? I have less than zero interest visiting there, either. How about Vatican City? A truly beautiful place, I’ve heard? Or the Jehovah Witness HQ, or one of the opulent Mosques in the world, etc?
What exactly is my motivation to come? Eating pizza? What?
I notice you mock the videos of NitHyanada, easy to do, I don’t blame you. He is ANOTHER scandal embroiled “Guru”, just like Gugu. But at least he has the courage to put these videos out there for all to see, unlike Gugu, who hasn’t even penned a poem for the sangat in 30 years let alone released weekly videos. At least we know what he’s actually teaching, rather than have people like Osho have to come here to share and receive abuse from random anonymous cowards, oops, posters, who don’t agree with the “tone” of his sharing, if not the actual accuracy. And that he didn’t achieve his position as “Guru” merely because a family member decided it was so.
So what exactly are we all headed to Beas for, on some weird ChurchoftheChurchless family vacation?
The last time I heard all these wise sounding claims from religious RSSBrs, with a knowing nod & a wink, “come to Beas, you’ll see…”, “just come, you will be amazed” etc, was to the poster known as “Jim S”. Well, he went to Beas for the first time, after decades of being an RSSB initiate and advocate in online discussions………and after doing so & hearing Gugu’s now infamous “69” answer to a questioner, he left the place thoroughly disenchanted & “knowing” Gurinder & RSSB wasn’t for him…….take note, “SP”. You are now inferring sceptics can go there and be, what, I dunno, either converted into the glory of the light that is Gurinder’s Saintliness, or, errr, more likely “disappeared” from what we’re hearing about this guru and organisation!??
Please, be serious.
Finally, I’ve spent several weeks at Beas on 2 occasions & seen Gugu at the Delhi satsang. I also went alone. On my second visit to Beas, some 22 odd years ago (?), I thoroughly enjoyed my stay in the Sadhu hostels, with the barest amenities. My deepest joys during my visits there was interacting with the “crowds”; serving rice & dahl in the main langar & going through for parshad at the end of satsang etc. That last experience, at Delhi & Beas, was a priceless experience.
I’m not sure what you think our interest was in this “Radhasoami”? To have a nice relaxing holiday? Have you lost ALL sense that this is meant to be the only efficacious spiritual path in all creation?

Manjit my Friend but you will come to me…i will make vegan dishes for you.peace my Friend

Hi Amar.
I understand how you feel…back when m. Charan singh put the westerners near the front…this was because many came for 2 or 3 weeks 1 time and never saw him again never. Or they were elderly and died or never returned.
Yes there were special privileged westerners for this reason or that…AND the westerners fought over seats and also had a back row that few wanted.
Now at satsang in front of the westerners…there were 3 or 4 rows of privileged Indians including Maharani..all westerners sat behind these rows…
Then behind all that the rest…
Babaji may have changed that I dont know.
Now charan put all the Indians living in the west mainly in FRONT ROWS when he travelled outside of India….
Westerners were not all treated special by the seating situation and master felt the indians had him daily so many for years thats all.
The throngs of bhandara people…well just too much crowd no one gets good seating..thats why the inner master is our goal if you follow traditional RS if youre not perhaps its because you need a friend to help you understand that masters dont prefer westerners. They just try to give everyone a chance to get close…
The seating competition became terrible and many westerners stopped going due to bad behaviour on the part of other westerners…
Westerners dont have a special place in the nasters heart any more than indians…
Most westerners loved the hospitality of the indians. Teriffic people. I love them dearly..
Chy

A little confusion for me here..
who is saying westerners are priviliged SP and or Amar.
Please refer to my last blog on the non special status of westerners.
Now then there are always some both indian and western that get status usually due to seva they are doing not
SPIRITUAL ATTAINMENT. Totally seperate reason and matter…
Humans think if someone gets close to master that that person is special….no either in need or some project where the mastervis with that person. NOT because he or she is getting more grace or darshan.
You can get darshan at home alone.
SP
The Dera is not the same now you say…huge and overgrown I am sure and modernized and the station. I rode on a horse cart from the train everytime to Dera….and one time stepped in the bingi ditch and smelled great all the way to the Dera. No water to xlean off…
I will keep your thoughts in mind here and cool if we all met would be lots of fun.
Jesse coukd watch the politics for our safety.
Spence explain all the satsangs afterward
..
Osho get us good seats!! Keep the sevadars at bay…
I get rather neptunian…
SP point out all the other mini gurus around the place and dortune tellers too.
As time goes on we can figure roles for the others on the blog when they go
As well. Too long of a list and im just getting familiar with you all little by liittle
Lets all at least meet astrally. There is no seating that way..
Chy

Manjit,
Sorry to sound rude, but your short-circuited mind needs a fix. Show me a word which alludes to a visit to Dera for your and others spiritual awakening. Everything I have mentioned is only about how Dera and Beas has changed over time. And by the way a 22 year ago trip you talk about is prehistoric in Dera’s timeline. Every 3/4 months there are noticeable changes at Dera these days.
With pleasure I leave you to yourself finding ways and questions to justify not visiting Dera. Just wish it were the other way around and also so that instead of referencing others experiences you could then narrate your own (what do they say in Punjabi haad-beeti) experience about Dera.
Dera certainly doesn’t miss you or stands to lose by you not visiting. Cant say the same about you though especially the second bit – for even you will never know.
Btw are you initiated?
Just hope you never have any regrets in life and especially when your time comes. Oops am sounding morbid here and my deepest apologies to you for this.
PS: please don’t forget to post your experiences about Dubai, Vatican and other places you list. I hope these would be better than serving dal and rice in the langar at Dera.

Chy,
Limiting myself to the gents side, the westerners (in mean all foreign nationals) and the important people now sit perpendicular to the stage (GSD straight line vision) and not facing it. So you get a side view. NRI’s face the stage. And all these sections are in the front – so in that sense privileged – unlike the “THEM” the lost of whom is probably a mile from the stage and only has some general sense of where Babaji’s stage is. And having experienced both (haad beeti lol) I say Satsang is more satisfying sitting at the back.
But my point of being insulated from the crowds was not just limited to Satsang. It was with regards to your stay at Dera as well. What Babaji has achieved is a Dera expansion where by the masses are all hosted at the periphery with all facilities provided to them close by so that they do not have a need to come into portions of Dera where quarters for Dera Residents and/or Hostels for westerners and/or NRI’s are.
Finally the chances of us meeting in Dera are brighter than meeting astrally. Of course for no fault of yours for I have no grand illusions of being enlightened in this life and besides at the astral level wont be cease to exist as Chy and SP??
Your mobiles get deposited with the security at the entry gate itself – so you cant enter Dera with a phone (unless you have a phone pass ). So unauthorised Handphones – confiscation certainly, eviction and/or ban from Dera not sure but could be as well. Even authorised phones not allowed in Satang.
But there is no risk of getting punched for this offence. Sevadars generally are both extremely polite and firm. A no is a no. No exceptions. Infact in such a situation I wont be surprised if the Secretariat actually traces back who the sevadar was at the gate and he along with his supervisor is sacked for the lapse.
I also haven’t seen a clamour amongst westerners for getting good seats. Whether first row or last in the westerners enclosure it almost the same. Maybe it existed during Hazur’s time. Now a days nobody can sit in an enclosure he/she is not entitled too – yes there are rules on where one can sit – in the front enclosures I mean. On the spot discretion vests with certain senior Sevadars but then I understand any such call taken is reportable. So it is very judicious. The crowds therefore also tend to be more disciplined knowing exceptions don’t come by.
@Manjit, am certain sadhu ashram has been razed a while ago and going through the prasad at the end of the satsang is just cherished memory now, just like being given prasad whilst seated – the halwa and/or small packets of puffed rice

Manjit,
Swami Nithyananda being a stress buster is mocking him/his videos?? Well you certainly do not have any inkling of the value of stress busters then.
So if understanding my posts is difficult, how about skipping them.
Take care and Ganpati Bhappa Moriya.

Hi SP
Quick note.
Are you saying there is a pizza place in Beas or Dera?
Now is it bonafide pretty close to pizza or is it naan with paneer and Indian veggies and a few tomatoes?
Or are they making PIZZA with various cheeses in there now?
Im not playing here just no one ever mentioned what restaurants exist there these days.
Somebody mentioned family vacations at Dera..No doubt it is that way for poor Indians. They bring their families to see babaji and enjoy the company of others and happy people.
Many regular vacations are infested with negative people.
I enjoy going to a lot of places but have some issues not health or affordability but need to be here now for some time.
Too much trouble to get out.
My satsangi contacts are few and elderly. They are too old to travel since late 90s. I dont attend satsang ..but ive attended hundreds in the 70s and 80s …so its time for me to do other things. Therefore Im not up to date.
On the latest fashions foods and gossip at the Dera…
As well enjoying Nityananda in between his unique delivery….
Chy

Chy,
Limiting myself to the gents side, the westerners (in mean all foreign nationals) and the important people now sit perpendicular to the stage (GSD straight line vision) and not facing it. So you get a side view. NRI’s face the stage. And all these sections are in the front – so in that sense privileged – unlike the “THEM” the lost of whom is probably a mile from the stage and only has some general sense of where Babaji’s stage is. And having experienced both (haad beeti lol) I say Satsang is more satisfying sitting at the back.
But my point of being insulated from the crowds was not just limited to Satsang. It was with regards to your stay at Dera as well. What Babaji has achieved is a Dera expansion where by the masses are all hosted at the periphery with all facilities provided to them close by so that they do not have a need to come into portions of Dera where quarters for Dera Residents and/or Hostels for westerners and/or NRI’s are.
The chances of us meeting in Dera are brighter than meeting astrally. Of course for no fault of yours for I have no grand illusions of being enlightened in this life and besides at the astral level wont we cease to exist as Chy and SP??
Your mobiles get deposited with the security at the entry gate itself – so you cant enter Dera with a phone (unless you have a phone pass ). So unauthorised Handphones if caught – confiscation certainly, eviction and/or ban from Dera not sure but could be as well. Even authorised phones not allowed in Satang.
But there is no risk of getting punched for this offence. Sevadars generally are both extremely polite and firm. A no is a no. No exceptions. Infact in such a situation I wont be surprised if the Secretariat actually traces back who the sevadar was at the gate and he along with his supervisor is sacked for the lapse.
I also haven’t seen a clamour amongst westerners for getting good seats. Whether first row or last in the westerners enclosure it almost the same. Maybe it existed during Hazur’s time. Now a days nobody can sit in an enclosure he/she is not entitled too – yes there are rules on where one can sit – in the front enclosures I mean. On the spot discretion vests with certain senior Sevadars but then I understand any such call taken is reportable. So it is very judicious. The crowds therefore also tend to be more disciplined knowing exceptions don’t come by.
@Manjit, am certain sadhu ashram has been razed a while ago and going through the prasad at the end of the satsang is just cherished memory now, just like being given prasad whilst seated – the halwa and/or small packets of puffed rice

Hi all, first of all i’d like to thank Brian Hines for creating this forum and Osho Robins for being so frank..I’ve been a part of this organisation myself for more than 2 decades, but decided to make it quits a few years back..Few annoying reasons like punctuality, registration sign-in, cleaning the already cleaned floors or windows just to pass time, langar only for sewadars, etc. to name a few..I had come here hoping to know my creator but instead ,being under all rules and regulations which i felt was being priortised..You cant move on your own without your superior’s consent..Spirituality should have taught me to be more free but i found myself more bound..A few years back after quitting satsang, i started listening to other masters on Advaita Vedanta (non duality)..The pointings are so so clear that you wonder where i was wandering, but sometimes to have the understanding of reality and living it you have to go thru paths as a stepping stone..There’s no one to blame for the time lost..Lastly i would wholeheartly recommend all who really are interested in realizing the self to listen to Swami Priyananda’s talks, for i’m sure you can’t miss it..Thanking all..

Hi Eddie. Nice comments. I agree with “no one to blame for time lost”. Every step taken in this life is a learning experience. Listening to points of view that are contrary to our own and even reading books that may have nothing to do with our own path/mindset, will enrich our understanding and hopefully add to our quest for finding out who we really are, if anything.
I think the RSSB bureaucracy, for lack of a better term, is needed due to it’s sheer size and growth, especially under GSD. We can debate whether the machine has become too big, since the sangat has grown so much, but the teachings still resonate with most people. The concept of the guru as savior doesn’t resonate with me anymore, but I continue with my meditation.

To Eddie and Amar.
Your blogs…
Eddie years ago I remember when there were 2 satsangis where i live. One was my mother late 1960s. This went on for a few years..it grew some and everybody thought WOW RS is spreading and more people are opening into the sweet teachings….
Little did we know now its like Manhattan!!!! Throngs of people too many …so much ambiance and gentle nuances are not here anymore. Those things were real and sorry you missed them.
Go back if you feel. Dont do any seva work just sit quiet and be inside.If somebody gets on you to do seva just SAY NO NOT THIS TIME.
Number 1.
Seva chores are reserved for those who unfortunately feel they will never go back to god without hours and hours of the more work and the dirtier work the faster is your reward. If you clean toilets the higher up sevadars will promise you that hundreds of lifetimes of karmas are lifted when you do toilet seva for huge crowds…come on…a sucker born every minute.
Yes its great to help people but dont do it like this…you need that peace easy time when going to see your guru…
They need workers yes so pay non interested in the guru city staff workers. Not satsangi people!! Let them relax at this time. but the con is the rumors around that you cant get from A to B without hours of seva….
The organization can!! afford to PAY a crew to come in and do everything…that way ALL visitors can sit and relax and bask in the presence of these divine beings who come in for a quick hour and leaves presence. Your focus would be on the inward teachings not chores that people could be hired to do…
Distraction folks here and way to save money…
Different at dera …lets keep it simple talking about for overseas centers sevas ..
Number 2 .
The ideas of saviour…. as Amar commented on doing meditation not thinking of saviour anymore…
I say
Get off the dream machine do some meditation be kind to animals be a good person. Play online etc. With hearing all the different gurus you enjoy but keep your focus on what you are in all this for and give up the idea of SAVIOUR. This word has thrown more satsangis into confusion than anything…
Go analyze for yourself and you will soon know exactly what these gurus are to give you and what they are not.
Quit listening to dera propoganda or dera gossip..either in the west or the east.
Most of it is fantasy land unbelievable stories and places that all gurus are in n sach khand etc etc and then we find out theres a human side to them they make mistakes but we get angry feel misled (due to unrealistic stories) because ..of that SAVIOUR notion.
Let it go and see what happens..
Chy

Hi SP.
lovely description of dera facility…
Boy has it changed much organization for sure…well the numbers have the need.
I will be lost with no cell phone ..ugh…how could I say hello to you bloggers….
Astrally…yes we would know each other if we could know what we look like here…haha.
We dont look like typed words on paper.
The astral body resembles the human form of its current life…has the extension of the mind as well and after physical death for some time possibly until the next incarnation.
So…its very much alive SP and you can use it tune into it..its right there experiencing you at this very moment.
Not too complicated and things just happen.
Im sure babajis lap is full of everybody wanting to sit by the guru..we just dont see them…the ones who are there but not in the body.
Sounds like you and Spence maybe others as well but the 2 of you have fond thoughts to share but different delivery styles..

Hi amar hope all well with you. Long time we haven’t conversed online. 😊 May I ask what form of meditation do you practice now?
Chy with regards to be points you mentioned
Number 1 I don’t see Seva the way you mentioned. I know of many people around me who do seva to get the benefits of Seva here and now not for some return to God. Seva is selfless service, done anywhere selfless service benefits the doer the most and quite immediately. I do Seva in a local hospital and it’s not for an “after death” reward. I do it to be of help to others(this is what my master has taught me) to give and help whenever one can. It helps my meditation and I seriously feel so happy to be able to help someone who needs it. Similarly my father does Seva at the local Satsang center and gets the same benefits in his life and according to him in his meditation As he is immersed in that positive atmosphere during the day.
Point 2
The master is a teacher, a guide, a friend ,a role model. The only one that can save us is ourselves As we live a life within the teachings of the saints.

I agree with most recent comments by Eddie, Amar, Chy and Vijay.
A master may teach/guide us, but each of us are the ultimate guardians of our individual souls. Divinity, holiness, God’s presence is in our deeds/actions/Karnee or simple living in harmony with all beings no matter how inconvenient (having courage to to do the right things.)
At time of judgement, we cannot use the excuse that I was simply doing what I was told to do by the higher ups. Or i chose a more convenient path/road over the higher one.
S. Bahadurji really emphasized proper living of a true seeker in spiritual bouquet. He lived what he preached. Hazoor preached love, and lived it as well. I personally don’t the incongruity of understand BBJI’s life and teachings.
Di

…..I personally don’t understand the incongruity of BBji’s life and teachings.

Every teacher carries a huge burden. They are the leader of the journey. And the followers have paid with their time and devotion to that teacher. The students are submitting to the teacher because they haven’t traversed the path before. They are at a disadvantage to their teacher. So it is impossible for the student to know at first whether their teacher, however appearing to be upstanding, actually understands where they are going or if in fact they have actually been there, or whether they are falsely leading ignorant students.
The very fact that the student knows they don’t know and are submitting to instruction reflects their vulnerability and their sincerity.
Teachers carry a huge responsibility therefore.
It can’t be helped.
But there are those who say “It’s the student’s responsibility to make up their own mind.” Fair enough. But when those students, after having submitted, and are now in a better position to make their own decision, see their teacher isn’t really helping them, then that is a fact.
To go back and further criticize the student and claim it is all their own fault is hypocrisy. The teacher may not actually be doing their job. That must always be a possibility, to be objective.
It is only the students fault for continuing down that path that is yielding nothing for them. If they have tried sincerely, with full effort, for an extended period, then they did their part, and the failure is entirely on the teacher’s shoulders.
When some of those who are happy with their teacher cannot use information to make a judgment, it is those people, the ones criticizing the struggling students, who are actually ignorant.
Most problematic are those classrooms where the teacher is most suited to some students, who make a lot of progress, but not to others, who have a very hard experience.
It is appropriate for the one who have tried and failed to find a more suitable teacher. It can be rightly said that the teacher, while helpful to some at one level, has failed they others.
When so many fail, you have a poor teacher.
Everyone should be honest enough to acknowledge that it isn’t working, and to find a more suitable learning environment.
We blame because we have invested great time and the teacher hasn’t met their responsibility to us. That’s legitimate.
Any teacher who acts as though they can do no wrong is a bad teacher. That is not only inaccurate but harmful.

Dear Spence,
You say the following
I – “But when those students, after having submitted, and are now in a better position to make their own decision, see their teacher isn’t really helping them, then that is a fact.”
SP: So is it a case that the student has transformed into an all knowing entity that he can see that his/her teacher isn’t really helping him huh? People have absolutely no idea the shit a PML takes on when he initiates a soul and thereby provides a surety that he will escort the soul to his true home.
——————————————————————————————————————————————-
II – To go back and further criticize the student and claim it is all their own fault is hypocrisy. The teacher may not actually be doing their job. That must always be a possibility, to be objective.
It is only the students fault for continuing down that path that is yielding nothing for them. If they have tried sincerely, with full effort, for an extended period, then they did their part, and the failure is entirely on the teacher’s shoulders.
SP: I find it shameful on the part of a student (if he believes he still is one) to pass any kind of judgement on his master/teacher. A student does his part trying sincerely with full effort for an extended period – so he basically does what he has been told is necessary to progress. Extended period – summing up of what’s extended period is just a few thousand hours ya. And you think these few thousand hours is a “wow factor” in your souls time-line? Grow up Spence. NOBODY has it in him to account for his karmas and/or reach back to his true home. Its the Master who decides when a soul is ready. So lets cut out the finger pointing towards the Master. HE KNOWS BEST and you as a soul/disciple know a shit about when you are ready to experience progress.
———————————————————————————————————————————————
III – Most problematic are those classrooms where the teacher is most suited to some students, who make a lot of progress, but not to others, who have a very hard experience.
SP: Again nobody is in any position to judge others position/progress because nobody has any knowledge of another soul. So do not fall into this trick of the mind.
———————————————————————————————————————————————–
IV – It is appropriate for the one who have tried and failed to find a more suitable teacher. It can be rightly said that the teacher, while helpful to some at one level, has failed they others.
When so many fail, you have a poor teacher.
SP – my friend in the first place nobody is equipped to succeed. Added to this is the load of your karma accumulated since you left your true home. Have any idea what any ones account would look like huh? In Santmat the master cares about only one level – your true home. And this journey will have expressways and dusty roads. Not to forget traffic lights. So your travel speed will depend on your relative position.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-
The rest of the post again is a poor judgement call by you. If you accept that you are a piece of shit (and we all are due to our karmas) and the master is individually working on with the least amount of effort on our part to make us worthy of the One, you wouldn’t be surprised and start questioning the master if you don’t find results coming your way in this lifetime. The path isn’t about just one lifetime for almost all of us.
Do your research before getting into a path. No point poking your nose into multiple paths: for the core teachings will be the same. The key is who the Master is. GSD is a remarkable multi-faceted personality (externally and in public). In private you can’t miss feeling the holiness. Yes externally he is currently embroiled in controversies. But who are we to question or judge him? Would you like him to start questioning and judging us forget as a spiritual guru even basis our deeds and karmas current and past lives?
Cheers,

Hi SP
You wrote
“SP: So is it a case that the student has transformed into an all knowing entity that he can see that his/her teacher isn’t really helping him huh? People have absolutely no idea the shit a PML takes on when he initiates a soul and thereby provides a surety that he will escort the soul to his true home.”
If you have no idea, why presume the Master is right and the student is wrong? Perhaps it is the onlooker who does not fully comprehend the pain of your brothers and sisters. Perhaps, if not the Master’s fault, then it is you who have failed to reach out. Perhaps there is the third responsible person, the brother or sister Satsangi.
But if you cannot make a decision, even with your limited understanding, that seems to me an utter failure. What use is any knowledge of you refuse to use what is presented to you, simply because it isn’t infinite?
You are already making a decision on limited information. You are choosing to blame the Satsangi and defend the Master.
Could this be an easy way out for you?
But I suggest that if you choose to love your Master in spite of other’s experience, and public records of less than admirable behavior, that you must take that the whole way. That means you elect to withdraw from judging anyone at all. Just accept that those who call themselves exers might not have had you done your job better as a brother. And had you been more b direct with your Master, perhaps he would also have avoided leaving the path.
For just as there are exers here, that can only be if the one you call Master is also an exer himself.
To believe you don’t have the full picture in order to continue to accept a Guru who is visibly flawed may work for you. But you don’t know enough to impose v that on anyone b else. If that works for you, if that is how you make progress, I honour it. But just for you.
For those who cannot follow someone whom evidence shows has not acted by the vows, I honour that also. That’s also a good decision.
Baba Ji is an exer. Just deal with it.

One more point, SP
There are people who leave the path because the meditation becomes unbearable. They can’t deal with it. They can’t sit and enjoy just being there, just letting the Simran roll on and on (for Master is actually the one doing it. Simran is really listening, but not everyone listens well or for long.)
They claim they have had zero experiences, or simply faint ones, even after decades of effort.
I think those people deserve a gold medal. Who could keep trying day in and out without any results? It’s almost unfathomable.
I have never had anything like that kind of discipline. To go even a few days putting in hours of effort and no result? No connection? That would be a nightmare. I couldn’t keep it up. And I can’t survive a day without Master. A few moments are torture. So if those of us on the path are so weak, as I am, and those who get nothing from meditation have applied an iron will, they are my betters.
So when anyone has done that, and they finally conclude this isn’t working for them, I say they have earned their place in heaven, give them a medal, and let them go and do as they wish. Including Baba Ji. We’ve all tortured him enough, especially his most devoted children.

“Never met a non Punjabi in your life and nobody has heard to now most in India ……. What a shame. But it’s ok.
Keep posting!!
Spend a lot of time in India huh…. LOL.”
Yes, SP. In India, it’s mostly in the Punjab and Delhi region where RS is well known, I assume because RSSB is larger than the other sects. So most Indians don’t know know what RS is. An even more insignificant number of non-Indians know.
Why did that confuse you or seem like I was changing my story? RS is a small religion. I’m sorry to break it to you that the entire earth isn’t bowing to your guru.
And, yes, I go to India pretty much every year. I’m an OCI holder via marriage.

Well to top it all off.
Really until we have full awareness which let me assume nobody has the full picture on all levels…
Then all of us satsangi or non satsangi including those that say they have denounced the RS system.
We dont know where we really are where we will be tomorrow and if we got initiated or dumped it later if we have that choice.
Folks we may not have the choice to know if we can in fact dump the master…
Sooooo keep it simple on the winding razors edge and go one day at a time..
It doesnt matter if babaji is the master or a fallen master or a sound businessman who grew the organization beyond belief…none of that matters.
He hasnt hurt you hes done nothing wrong to you. So if his situation makes you think to stop meditating…well your mind won here for sure. Come on all we all can grow up here and keep doing our best irregardless of what babaji does. Hes a moment in time not an eternal material world entity. His physical life here is an illusion a distraction from our inner work.
Yes hes the master who came to teach us what Im saying here…razors edge folks razors edge…. Get on up the ladder…
Who suffers from you stopping meditation and doing other things?
..not babaji.
All in how we look for excuses to let OURSELVES fail..
Chy

“Jesse.
Im half slav as well….not that it matters but its around.”
Priviit gospodin Chy! Kak dela?
It matters more than you think. Genes are way more important than we like to admit.
About my prediction of unrest, of course I would hate to see it happen too, and it’d be much worse were it to spread outside the org itself, but these babas bring it on themselves and their supporters. The scale of the sangats is unnecessary and they are totally unprepared for the corresponding social complications that arise from allowing it to grow this large.
You see that area as being all blissed out in the 70s and 80s, but that’s when the big terrorism surge started in Punjab. Maybe in the walls of the dera things were fine, but just outside there were many who wanted to not only kick out RS, but any heretical Sikhs or non-Sikhs. Charan stopped giving satsang to westerners there for a while and held them in Delhi instead.
A certain degree of that sentiment still exists today, and if I could understand Punjabi I’d find the hukam (fatwa) from Akal Takht (Sikh highest authority) in circa 2008 calling for the expulsion of all deras and their members from the Punjab. I’d fear that clash between the ISIS-like faction of faux Sikhism and RS et al far more than RS vs cops after a Gurinder arrest or something.

Jak Tam? Jesse…
We can chat on this heritage if you like.
My mothers side long history…
Her father and a vegetarian was a disciple of paramahansa yogananda…when she was young. She was born in late 1920s.
Wont be too factual publically here..nothing personal..
Her mothers side not into Indian things came from the old country and had been lawyers and classical symphony musicians.
Now then mother was always metaphysical. We had no organized religious background until I was 10 and master Charan took the stage…
My father not slavik…early american 1750 and prior and the other of him British Isles mix.
He got initiated in 1990 on the day master died..he flew to Utah with Devries rep and when he entered the initiation room Devries was just falling apart and came in and said the word just came in that the master just died…but all those approved for initiation were his children and to continue on with the initiations for those signed by the master for.
De vries had to keep it all together and go through the process…
I knew mr. Devries and then wife quite well personally for many years…he was a very devoted satsangi. They both dud a lot of work for the master.
On the next note the email you mentioned the strifes possible around the Dera…I can see what you mean…we do wish for the best in any case….lots of disciples with varied opinions and approaches to spirituality.
Chy

Spence,
It’s entirely your call if you wish to give up and abandon the path – which simply assures a homecoming (but not the timing, for that depends upon our checkered history). Nobody is going to plead with you to return. If you think individuals who abandon the path for not experiencing progress when they believe they should, deserve gold medals and a place in heaven you are welcome to your beliefs.
But if you end up leaving many other paths for the very reason (lack of perceived progress) what then?
Wonder what irrefutable proof you hold basis which you conclude that you have made ‘no progress’ despite decades of sincere effort.
On the spiritual journey back home there is only one onlooker who can see your position relative to the destination, the adequacy of the effort and to date progress and that’s the Almighty. It’s upto him when he simply plucks you from your current relative position and places you besides him.
In the interim we have been repeatedly told keep up your effort and ‘stay in his divine will’.
Putting a master at fault because you think you deserved more (because of your efforts) (and this holds true for anything and everything)is not being in the divine will.
You say If you have no idea, why presume the Master is right and the student is wrong?
SP: how with some supposed but unsubstantiated knowledge do you do the same….. not presume but squarely lay the blame on a master.
You also say To believe you don’t have the full picture in order to continue to accept a Guru who is visibly flawed may work for you.
SP: so despite not having the complete picture and By your own admission you haven’t progressed to see the Guru, it’s ok to conclude about the adequacy or inadequacy of a Master/teacher?
Did you choose a path/philosophy or the person who sits on the stage or heads an organization? Tomorrow your worst enemy becomes the successor – will you abandon the path? I get a strong sense that despite your decades of sincere effort you haven’t been able to even in a small measure see through the ways of the deceitful mind. Alternately if GSD comes out clean will it be a case of The Faith Returns??
On the last portions of your second post
If you agree to the mind is the biggest enemy to God realisation, whose cause are you taking up here – the minds or the soul’s?
Think Spence. Like I said we all are not equipped to realise God. It’s the way the dice been rolled. We all are weak and ignorant. Keeping the faith is all we have and putting in our feeble efforts is all that we can do. No effort of ours is or will ever be adequate.
Cheers

I’ve never met a non Punjabi in my life who has ever heard of radha soami.
Nobody has heard of them let alone agrees about their “pure spiritual character.”
August 17 10:19am
I spend a lot of time in India and most people there don’t know even what radha soami is, or they confuse it with one of the million other guru cults.
August 19, 05:32pm
From nobody having heard of RSSB to most people not knowing RSSB is the shifted position.
Now, RSSB isn’t a religion. It never has been and has never claimed or expects it to be treated as one.
RSSB is small – Of course it is and have seen it even as a fraction of current size. The good part – Can’t demand of God to increase the lot size of souls he wants back with him.

Chy,
Yes there are a couple of joints at Beas Station which serve reasonably ok pizzas – definitely not using a variety of exotic cheeses. But good enough.
Paneer tends to be integral to Indian cuisine. Indianising the menu is a lesson learnt by foreign chains too. But sans paneer options available.
Amy’s is available inside Dera at the Coffee Shop – which is open for Residents, their families and Sangat staying at certain hostels.

Hi Di.
Well dont know you too well but my sense of you is a very gentle sort of M. Charan kind of way…simple and going with the flow of love and compassion as a means to return to the awareness of the father. How you will go this route rather than the analytical mental approach.
My opinion.
Keep chuggin’ its all right and good.
Keep it simple.
We arrive by different means due to our conditioning and gifts of this lifetime..
Chy

Hi SP
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I haven’t left the path at all. You are confused on that point.
But I have great compassion for those who consider themselves exers.
I don’t think it is wise to blame them. Master chose them, right?
And as far as using common sense, well, when had any Master suggested otherwise?
Even Baba Ji would agree that we should all obey the law, be responsible, pay our bills, and do what we can to help each other. It’s part of the stable atmosphere for meditation.
When you can see for yourself that I’m as legitimate a Satsangi as you are, and as every single exer displeased, on grounds of morality, witnessed instances of unkindness, and objectivity, with various incidents at Dera and by other representatives of RSSB, then I don’t think you have fully allowed Shabd to capture your soul.
Because once it does, then all these distinctions become arbitrary and insignificant. What becomes sacred is our duty to objective truth and compassion, and our connection to each other.
This is what allows any sincere soul to say to Baba Ji, as a brother, “please pay your delinquent bills, brother, and let me know how I can help you.”

Hi SP
You wrote
“On the spiritual journey back home there is only one onlooker who can see your position relative to the destination, the adequacy of the effort and to date progress and that’s the Almighty. It’s upto him when he simply plucks you from your current relative position and places you besides him.”
If only one onlooker, then that would have to be you, right? And if you are not an onlooker, isn’t that like a driver not paying attention to the road?
I share with you a belief in a greater consciousness. But I would never use that to judge another person inadequate.
That’s where belief slips into prejudice.
You wrote
“It’s entirely your call if you wish to give up and abandon the path”
Here you are mistaken. I’m a practicing Satsangi.
But your idea of the path, while popular, is a foreign from mine.
In the version I hold as Truth, we all honor each other’s perspective and do what we can to help each other, not by shame, but encouragement.
If someone tries their best and gets no results they are following Sawan Singh’s own instructions if they seek another way. And if they find something more truthful, they follow Great Master’s instructions by reporting that.
By this definition Brian Ji is a better Satsangi, a real Guru, not the horseshit ones who dress in ancient costume, than the rest of us, and we should pay serious attention when Guru Ji drags us from our superstitious and harmful beliefs into objective reality. He is the Lord ‘s bulldozer, SP.
That’s actually Sant Mat as the Saints teach, not the religion of RSSB superstition and blind faith that has nearly completely overtaken by a self – serving Sangat leadership, aided by the current Master’s financial misadventures and dalliances with fraud.

And SP, one more point about a real Sat Guru.
They are responsible for the entire creation, not just initiates. Anyone who sees them and believes is already bound for the highest heaven.
To add a requirement of Initiation is to place a barrier between the almighty and his/ her creation. Initiation is a human made artifice that by it’s own existence places RSSB at a distance from the Almighty. Every person rejected for initiation is a living testimony to the fact that this is not the highest way to the One.
That is why you will never see membership vows or dues here at CoC. Everyone is welcome here, so long as they follow basic rules of civility. Even aliens from other worlds, if they can learn English and figure out how to use a keyboard with their tenticles, are welcome to share their own issues and beliefs here.

“Keep chuggin’ its all right and good.
Keep it simple.
We arrive by different means due to our conditioning and gifts of this lifetime..Chy”
I fully agree with your statement Chy.
I will take the simplicity of love, equality, and brotherhood of mitti seva under the gaze of hazoor anyday over the current complexities of doing seva. What is the point? In my opinion, it is not only taking us away from spiritual success, but also robbing us of our humanity.
And only BBji can redirect the ship.
Di

.
Compromises are ok, but compromising our humanity is not-all is lost.
Hazoor: we have to live in this world with courage/bravery.
BBji: we shouldn’t become doormats.

Hi Di.
Right on SIMPLE !! MITTI SEVA….
Chy

Spence–
Tentacles! Lol

Spence, you say
one more point about a real Sat Guru.
They are responsible for the entire creation, not just initiates. Anyone who sees them and believes is already bound for the highest heaven.
Two parts here. So the second bit you mention has merit – so it’s not only the ones who see and believe but a darshan by even a non believers slots him into what old timer satsangis will call aunkari jeev. This holds true for even plants and animals. I am told the grass a PLM walks upon and crushes is fast tracked to meeting a perfect master.
But unfortunately unless you are destined to, you will not get a PLM’s darshan.
Are they responsible for the entire creation – certainly not.
If it were to be the case, then there has been no dearth of PLM’s just in the past few centuries itself who were more than capable of herding us and all other life forms back to our true home. But that hasn’t happened and we are all stuck in here for zillions of years.
Each comes for his marked lot.
This is not to say, they don’t help the prevalent sufferings. Certainly they do.
There is a hymn which states
Sant na hote Jagat mein, jal marta sansar
ie if PLM’s weren’t present in this world, the world would burn down.
But this is quite different from the responsibility they take on vis a vis the initiates.

SP you wrote: ” I am told the grass a PLM walks upon and crushes is fast tracked to meeting a perfect master.”
Nice story. Might have to come back 4 times before that happens: Next time as a weed, then a tulip, then a rose, then…?
We laugh at our young children who still believe in Santa Claus who’s going to slide down the chimney and leave gifts for them. Or the tooth fairy who leaves a dollar under your pillow for the tooth that fell out. These stories keep us happy and pass on a tradition. If you start believing these things about grass being stepped on by a “PLM” and it will soon meet a “prefect” master, then I’ve got some swamp land in Florida that would be perfect for golf course. You can plant all the grass your heart desires.
You are entitled to believe whatever you want, personally, but don’t try passing it on as fact to bolster your position, by unsubstantiated claims you cannot verify.

Hi SP
You’ve done a decent job reflecting Sant Mat theology, but again this is a chosen system of belief, faith in a system that is largely caste-adapted.
What we discover within, while similar, is not at all the same.
Sant Mat is a man made system. Sawan Singh once said that Sant Mat meditation is like a man-made electric generator compared to the power of the creation, which is like a thunder storm.
The two are different in degree, and one is generated artifically with the hope of bringing us closer to the other.
Someone asked if there we perfect Masters in America and Maharaji said such souls are everywhere and have been coming all along but we aren’t ready to see them in this culture. It isn’t as rare an event as you believe it to be.
Unfortunately, the culture in India isn’t ready either. They only recognize a soul as a teacher if he lives in a nice villa and has a chauffer and a large following, or is appointed by the same. Lineage is everthing in India, as part of a culture of caste. But it means nothing, zero, zed, to the emergence of realized souls. And they are doing their work anyway. That’s the natural method, the true thunder storm.
But at the end of the day, SP, you and I can only discuss differences of theological belief. And when for either of us that develops into true experience it isn’t transferable and must be couched in terms of principles of theology.
For example, Karma. We think Karma is based on action. But it isn’t. What you carry with you are the impressions. So if you are traumatized by an event, it may affect you much more, and you may be living that trauma life after life. The person who committed the act may not know about it. Some impressions are still there, but nothing that a cold justice would require. They may return in the relative comfort they enjoyed before, as they have been conditioned to, but with some nasty drama to pass through, such as a few years of infamous notariety about financial fraud in an otherwise privileged life.
But at this level we can only have a theoretical discussion and agree to disagree on points of what we choose to believe.

… And so, SP, when, for whatever reason, people are drawn to complain, there is a much deeper history, one that should be honored, if the goal is to help everyone get past it.

Finally, SP, on a third point, a position of authority is necessary in an organization, so that many people follow with reasonable obedience despite their personal feelings. They learn to put those aside.
But in spirituality, authority of any kind is a barrier. True Saints refuse power and position of any kind, because at this level, that is a barrier. God is the only authority. Or in Atheist language, the Creation is the only and absolute authority.
So when you come into contact with one, whether you understand it or not, they will never be regarded as a teacher. If you speak with them, it is soul to soul, no barriers.
Most of their work is facilitation, ,and far less teaching.
The world functions because in fact they are always here and in several places. They are compelled from within to do the right thing, fuck authority. Their boss is their own soul.
There are a few in the Sangat. Go to the very back row, or better still, the Sevadars standing behind that last row, out in the hot sun in the field, where the loudspeakers barely reach, beyond the metal shade, or in the auditorium, standing against the pillar behind the chairs. Among those.
Among the ones cleaning the toilets, vacuuming the floors, sweeping the tiles. The true saints among them aren’t doing it for any special benefit. While there are some who do that work to gain Guru’s favor, the few Saints doing those jobs are there because It’s the only honest work, the cleanest work in the organization. The other jobs are covered in the shit of ego and pride. They avoid them. However they have great empathy for those. Because people are seeking sanctuary, solice, wherever they can find it.
To the Saint, a drug addict is in much the same predicament as a religious devotee. Both need some help dealing with reality.

Now Gurinder, Shivinder, Malvinder, Gurikreet, and the whole lot look upon those Sevadars, nameless initiates and visitors at the back differently. Where once they felt pride in all that devotion, in the size of the organization, now it’s different. Now they are envious. They wish their shoulders carried as light a weight as those. And they are beginning to see that there may be a true Saint or two among those sitting at the back, whether Sevadar, initiate or simple visitor. Those are fleeting moments, where a ray of light breaks through the otherwise impenetrable covering of self – confidence and self – justification. Where every dollar of charity made public with pride to justify their nisdeeds is actually another brick in their own prison wall.
Perhaps freedom will come in their next life…. A simpler life of pure devotion.
Maharaji used to say that there must be bricks at the bottom for their to be bricks at the top.
Any good bricklayer will tell you that the bottom has the strongest steel reinforced blocks.
In any light earthquake the first bricks to topple are the ones at the top, and often those are merely cosmetic.
The ones at the bottom are actually holding up the entire building.

When a major earthquake hits, as is part of the natural cycle, it is the steel reinforced concrete blocks buried deep in the very foundation of all buildings, that will be the only visible remains in a field of ruin.

@ spence .
Do you think he feels empathy ? The big man?
There is a reason I am asking.

Hi Arjuna
Once when I was cooking my then 8 year old son drew a picture of me, and in that picture was Baba Ji, with turban, looking over my shoulder and smiling at Sam. It was a sardonic smile, as if the two of them shared an inside joke, and I was the butt of the joke.
I asked Sam who that was, and he said “Your Master”.
My Master is Maharaji, actually. I inquired further. “Where did you get his picture from?”.
And Sam replied, “He was standing right behind you, Dad.”
That is compassion.

Arjuna, if you would ask me … the answer would be .. NO … they cannot, they have not.
Does this mean they are “lacking” something …NO .. they certainly don’t.
Nobody would benefit from them if the would show it.
IF … the react … again … IF at all … they show you the least desired, wanted, thought of, direction to take….they show you the “small way” as I came to name it.
I wrote a personal experience but deleted it as it is not needed
Listen with a cup of tea to some Q&A sessions of his uncle, Don’t focus on the issues that are presented but on how he answers. After a while you will certainly discover an pattern and that will open you eyes. You will understand that they cannot react in that position as you would aspect a good friend or family member and yet they care for you but in an other unexpected way.
This is a personal observation on my part. If you or somebody else feels that i am looking through teinted glasses, it might crtainly be the case.

Spence nice story about your son.
I asked you this before and will ask again. If you find out that Babaji has had nothing (absolutely) nothing to do with the whole financial issue(I believe this is what is bothering you the most). And blame was pinned on him by those around him.How would you react?

Amar,
So are you entitled not to believe. What you hoard as your beliefs and what you discard, doesn’t make a damn difference to the creation, the rules that govern it and the advantages/benefits an association with a PLM bestows.
Btw, this was the reply I got to a question I posed to a known enlightened personality in Dera years ago (Hazur’s time). But thanks for your views. Much appreciated even though you unfortunately are a feeble source on such matters.
You asked a rose….. Then?
Then…you Amar.
Gosh how come your super intelligence betray you.

Spence,
You say,
I- Sant Mat is a man made system.
SP: I see it as a system made for mankind
II – Someone asked if there we perfect Masters in America and Maharaji said such souls are everywhere and have been coming all along but we aren’t ready to see them in this culture. It isn’t as rare an event as you believe it to be.
SP: Wonder what is it that I said that conveys I believe enlightened souls is a rare event. Through my 50+ years of life I have had the privilege of being associated with many enlightened and some very enlightened individuals apart from Hazur and GSD. Of course all within India.
Also Maharaji’s answer is remarkable. Hopefully you saw the shift from Perfect Master to such souls. Bottom line many enlightened souls but most not tasked the role to play master.
This is pretty much well known by a majority of Satsangis in this not so evolved Indian culture ya…..
III- Unfortunately, the culture in India isn’t ready either. They only recognize a soul as a teacher if he lives in a nice villa and has a chauffer and a large following, or is appointed by the same. Lineage is everthing in India, as part of a culture of caste.
SP: I am compelled to use the following words. What an arrogant display of ignorance Spence.
In India, we even worship trees, animals, reptiles, idols and including a unique God with an Elephant’s head. Doesn’t make us Children of a lesser God.
Nobody has the right to undermine or mock anybody’s faith (including that of a child who the likes of Amar laugh at for believing in some Santa or Fairy). And the amazing thing about the faith of such Indians is it’s rock solid unlike the bunch we have in here. And don’t worry most of them have reasons to complain (for if money rules as somebody commented most Indians are certainly rich).
Oh yes one other bit – these objects of worship (their master) do not have large villas, swanky cars etc etc. And this cuts across castes that you think the Indian society is built around.
To be continued………..
Hopefully this gets published.

Spence said,
Baba Ji is an exer. Just deal with it.
First the believers will not let exer’s have him as part of their group.
Second and more importantly….. If Babaji is an exer then you must be Hazur Charan Singh.

Spence,
Your explanation about karma; would you be kind enough to share the source could be books, scriptures, Satsangs, hymns etc which position karma in this way.
I’ve been having a tough time in my attempts to jettison the oft mentioned prarabdh, sanchit and kriyaman karmas.
And also leave you with the following (just a representative list)
1) https://www.rssb.org/2017-02-15.html (words of your Master Hazur ya)
https://www.rssb.org/2010-09-06.html
2) As she(soul) has planted so does she harvest, such is the field of karma. Adi Granth 134
3) As you sow so shall you reap. Goswami Tulsi Das Ji. – Sri Ramcharitmanas 2.218.2
4) A man reaps what he sows: Galatians 6:7
5) For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one of us may receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. – Corinthians 5:9-10

Hi SP
you appear to have a very dreamlike way of experiencing many things.
The special grass the master walks on that if you see or walk there as well means you could be marked.
Now none of this is logical or can we know if its going to be right or happen its all on faith and hope.
Things of the other side will never make sense here in 3d physical world.
BE AWARE.
My wish for you is that you can understand that if its in the imagination, then its REAL somewhere and these impressions you get are gifts from the higher dimensions .
Everything here is dense and what you see is what you get.
You are being gifted with these impressions and things like this that you read and remember. Stories of miracles interesting serendipities as 777 writes about.
SP all of this IS REAL. You are gifted with awareness of the subtle dimensions of this universe.
Dont lose it…
Keep moving into it. In time new illusions will surface.
We are given what we can handle ….
Chy

SP, you wrote: “What you hoard as your beliefs and what you discard, doesn’t make a damn difference to the creation, the rules that govern it and the advantages/benefits an association with a PLM bestows.”
Has nothing to do with your perceived supremacy of Sant Mat dogma. I don’t hoard any beliefs. I question because I have the right to question. I have the right to call bullshit on statements that are unverifiable which people like you state as fact when you have no way of verifying.You’re not the only one who understands the teachings. Try corroborating these fantasy statements with something, anything.
You can’t just quote other people or what’s written in books and say it’s true. Anyone can write a book. Look at L Ron Hubbard. He wrote Dianetics. Made shit up and charges people more and more money to have higher experiences. People will believe anything written in a book.
Prove it.

SP, you wrote: “I’ve been having a tough time in my attempts to jettison the oft mentioned prarabdh, sanchit and kriyaman karmas.”
You have no idea what you’re writing. How can you possibly know what kind of karma is what? “Jettison” What does that even mean? You make it sound like you have control over this. Charan Singh said you have no idea what karma you’re undergoing or what “store house” of karmas you have. GSD says karma isn’t what you think it is. So stop pretending to know anything about this.

Well Amar keep questioning….. Keep stamping stuff as bullshit. Afterall it’s your right.
Won’t suggest how valuable time can be better spent.
Perceived supremacy of sant mat dogmas – na. After all it’s just a third grade Bollywood movie script. Worthless, a pack of lies, a mean to misguide people.
But
just as I calling you a donkey doesn’t make you a donkey, You disbelieving what’s in the books doesn’t make what’s stated therein untrue.
Want proof – well first become worthy of getting it.
In the meanwhile
continue bullshitting (you do a good job) – leave it to you however you want to interpret what I mean here.
And do keep laughing at others beliefs especially children’s in Santa and some Fairy. Adds shine to your personality.
If you feel offended happy to not address it.

SP, last time as a response: by you believing what’s written does not make it true either. Believe what you want, I really don’t care. If you truly believe what you believe in, good for you. Why do you care what me, Spence or anyone else says? Maybe you’re here to see your ego spread across the blog. Always question your own beliefs, or you end up with a bunch of yes people.
By the way, it takes an enlightened person to recognize another enlightened person. If you say you are enlightened, by the very nature of you saying it, negates that.
Keep pretending to know everything.
Good day and happy life to you my friend!
Cheers!

Amar,
So then Oh Enlightened One please educate the likes of me about Karma.
Need your Gyan and not what Hazur said or GSD says and also not what religious scriptures say and results of Google search ya….
And a small request – keep it simple for it’s for an individual with limited intelligence which is also reflected in the incoherent posts. Couldn’t make a shit out of what Spence said in one of his posts about these being impressions.
I believe you, that GSD tells you’ll Karma isn’t what you all think it is. Maybe it’s the condition of the people he addresses that makes him say this.
Back in India he does throw light on what Karma is and for me and my spouse personally, he has on one occasion spent probably 30 minutes, taking pains to explain about what karma and karma theory is all about.
But happy to hear your piece too and even Spence’s (already requested him) – so long as it’s your own and not borrowed stuff.
Also seek another piece of advice from you
Should I start questioning my beliefs in RSSB – especially if the end result despite the numerous private interviews/interactions with Hazur and GSD with some stretching over an hour, and having unlimited access to individuals acknowledged as being enlightened the end result is such gross ignorance/lack of understanding within me.
Will I be a worthy exer?
PS:

Hi Jen from Austin
You asked
“I asked you this before and will ask again. If you find out that Babaji has had nothing (absolutely) nothing to do with the whole financial issue(I believe this is what is bothering you the most). And blame was pinned on him by those around him.How would you react?”
I’m responding to the mountain of information now. It’s only because of that information, it’s objectivity, and repeated verification. We probably have about 60% of the story.
As new information arises, naturally, as the whole picture becomes more complete so will my and your understanding, and we can come together in agreement, if we are both willing to acknowledge the facts ss they arise.

Hi SP
This can only be a discussion in theory about theology until you see for yourself, but Maharaji tells you about how Karma works when he says it is association of the mind only. These are as he said “deep karmic impressions.” The impressions are made on your own mind, those are your impressions, whether conscious or unconscious. Only after Trikuti are they washed away for good, at least enough to keep you from returning, though some are still there even after Trikuti (see Spiritual Discourses Vol 1, Q 120. and Q 237, and more about the Sanskaras, Q 263).
The mind carries all the impressions, even the sinchit (storehouse) Karmas, the Pralabdh (fate) you must go through in this life, and even those Karmas you create (Kriya) in this life. It’s all in your mind. Actions do contribute to the impressions because you experience them, but the Karma is the impressions, not the actions.
“I’ve lived through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened.”
Mark Twain
Even the things that didn’t happen, but which caused you distress, or joy, are karmic.
You don’t see it in normal wakeful conscious state, but it’s there, even much deeper than the subconscious. You see it in deep meditation. And when you can’t sit in meditation, it’s the Sanskaras pushing back at you, like a living creature.
Work that off through meditation, wash it through Shabd, let Master fly you through the utter darkness of Maha Sunn, through the nauseating immense dark curving tunnel of bank nal, and their hold is pretty much gone. Of course so is all the fear and lust necessary to function competitively in this place. So be careful what you beg for.
You refer to the Bible and Paul teaches the same message in Hebrews about the impressions of the mind, that sacrifices don’t get rid of them, only the power of the Spirit (Hebrews 9:9, and Roman’s 8:12-14). Hence your Master within, the embodied Word.
Whatever those impressions are, they must be paid. But they don’t work the same as the legal system. Generally the victim has the strongest impressions and must deal with those life after life, until those impressions can be replaced, worn away, or simply washed away with Shabd. The one committing the act also has to go through their own proclivity to theft, violence, lust, greed, etc, which these acts can never satisfy, and feed like an addiction. That addiction brings you back. The desire for retribution brings you back. But so does the trauma and grief. Your own Karmas may bring you back in the same role once again.

One more point SP, referring to your cousin of Paul on Galatians, you reap what you sow, not what someone else did to you. Just your own reactions. That can include both anger, grief, trauma and fear. Those are seeds you sow, your own impressions. You may blame others for their harm, but your Karma is the impression made in you… So this is where most people get confused. They think the act is the Karma, but it is only the impression of makes, your reaction. That’s Karma.

Oops spellcheck..
Meant to write
“referring to your quotation of Paul in Galatians, you reap what you sow, not what you did to others, but the impression you made upon your own mind. Not what others did to you, but what impression you experienced, which you yourself made.”

“So then Oh Enlightened One please educate the likes of me about Karma.”
Ok, only because you are my favorite student, here I will share the secret of spiritual cause and effect, my child. Do not share this esoteric knowledge with others.
Karma is utter bullshit.

Jesse,
I am so very obliged to you. What profoundness. Will keep it locked away in a secret vault – won’t share the address and password with you too.
Btw any proof ? Can’t leave that out in the open as well. As your favorite student I demand that I be given the responsibility to safeguard it. My Master, so you better provide it.
LOL
Thanks for the laugh. These stressful days it’s hard to even get a smile on somebody’s face. You actually made me laugh.

SP why call yourself the worst deciple?

“SP why call yourself the worst deciple?”
Anon, why are you not deferring to me and seeking supreme knowledge? In this ashram, there is no place for gossip and judgement.
Forget what the other students say.
Focus on master’s (my) darshan, and attach yourself to the subtle stream of 2008 dubstep anthems.

Anon,
Just being truthful. That’s it.
If you have a better word for a disciple who hasn’t attended to required meditation even one day since initiation do let me know.
Cheers

SP
Oh I see. Has that changed?