Open Thread 26 (free speech for comments)

Am I a Mystic?
10 Telltale Signs of Mystics
1. You value experiences above all else
2. You question existence
3. You are comfortable with uncertainty
4. You value intuition
5. You are uncomfortable with spiritual hierarchies
6. You have your own set of rules
7. You value internal growth
8. You believe you are a conduit for power, not the source
9. You believe love is the source of life
10. You don’t know everything
https://www.gaia.com/article/am-i-a-mystic-10-signs

To answer Jesse or Bobby Fischer Stan on this thread
What else can you do?
What did Simon or Philip or John or Thomas or Mary do once they’ve strung up and nailed their brother / teacher / friend / benefactor to a cross?
Nothing else to do but follow in their footsteps.
Or let me put it to you
What would you have me do?
Rent my clothes and chuck ashes on my head?
Love is not based on faith alone, you who have lived with love should know that it’s not a dispassionate commodity or bargaining tool, it’s a verification of experience, it is or it isn’t, there are no rules of what to do attached to it.

Melancholy
God exists only on our heads.
All the noble qualities we assign to God, are just projections of how we would like the World to behave.
For me it’s survival and happiness.
The inner worlds of our minds eye are part of the unexplained and unknown consciousness.
The same place where dreams abound.
For better or worse we live our lives in sickness and in health.
But when the big day comes
Who will remember my name
God?

Michael writes,….”Who will remember my name? God.
:Me:
I can offer my Conjecture, or belief , on whether the Ultimate Creator either cares, or even knows about me personally, you, or Planet Earth. I doubt if He/She/It micromanages the Mission He assigned to His Creator, The Logos. Shabd, i.e. The Word. I think He assigns all Chores of Material Manifestation to The Logos. Once The Logos creates any living specie, on earth, then, each individual,spicie requires a soul to Progress each member of the specie forward, once The Breath of Life has been Breathed in to the Fetus , and it becomes a LIVING soul. Then, each soul possesses Eternal Life, and it’s Journey begins. Eventually, after millions of Reincarnations as well as Transmigrations, each soul eventually becomes a Human specie which is assigned a mind. Only humans with minds create Karma, and are accountable to first, their HSS, ( Higher Soul Self) which is accountable to The Logos, Who is accountable to the First Cause, Anami Purush. It’s a Chain of Command Spiritual/Material Operation, of Life, death, reincarnation, until mind/souls , are drawn to return to the Pure Spiritual Realm where ONLY the soul with out the mind exists. That Realm is above where the HSS, or Causal Body exists, which archives all past lives of each Soul. So, to my understanding, in the Spiritual Chain of Command , who do I, Jim , answer to, or ask for help , when I really need it? I know where I go, but you will need to decide where you, Michael, choose to go, or access for help. I really doubt that the Supreme First Cause, cares, or even knows you and I are alive, and on a Journey as struggling souls to escape from our Prison Warden of the Mind , to arrive back to pure Spirit as Pure Souls, with out any remaining material desires. I obviously have not yet arrived there yet, as I have a few desires left, but not many, as my Bucket List for this life is empty, and I am about as content as any one, and don’t plan on trying to be some one’s Savior, as I’m almost at the final sheet of Toilet Tissue on the roll. Not a good answer, but, sorry, that’s all I can access at this moment. I can’t imagine the miracle of how long it has taken our souls to arrive along the Journey ending up here, as Michael and all CoC members & Jim, to have this conversation about wondering Who really gives a Rip about any of us? Does GSD?
Jim S.

With each passing day the concept of Kal Niranjan/Demiurge is coming to be true. It was not just adventure but trap laid out to capture the souls. For adventure you don’t need carnal bodies, these bodies were especially prepared by Kal Nirnajan to rule over the souls.

But when the big day comes
Who will remember my name
God?
Posted by: Michael | November 25, 2019 at 04:36 PM
Certainly Michael; if you have remembered your God through your life.

Jim S
As a prior pastor and as per similar portfolio as Julian P Johnson a pastor of a flock or congregation,
who as missionary went to India to teach the gospel according to his findings and education but got taken out of the narrow confine of religious belief to have received instruction from a source of knowledge loftier than his previous experience.
From same source of uniqueness of teaching as prescribed by one Seth Shiv Dayal of Agra to Jaimal Singh, to disciple Sawan. Who initiated Johnson and the message passed to the west of the world and via succession of teaching through discussions with disciples EG. successors Jagat Singh MSc, Ch. Singh Grewal, and G. Singh Dhillon, and via prof I. Puri, (and others).
Without such explanation of how one’s condition within the world impact on the conscious awareness and how the mind conjures itself as part of the great story of life, who would have eventually pondered such a vast explanation of the existence of a ‘Supreme existence and First Cause’ and one’s measly participation in it?

Hi Smart
Your wrote
“Yes. I am here as me with God’s immense grace to fulfill the only objective of human birth – God Realisation.”
My God sings in every atom of the creation. I reaslize God every instant I forget myself in helping someone else.
And not just me. Many others, too. I learned about it from real Sat Gurus, not the stage actors in turbans and turbo-jets people seen addicted to.
The secret of God realization, the secret of overcoming self is to lose yourself in selfless service. It is instant bliss. The layers of ego, the meditation work of ages is shed in a moment of compassion.
With the poorest of the poor He is there.
And when I turn from those in need, I am lonely for my God.
Where is that beautiful refuge, where can you escape the simple duties of just being a decent human being? That path of fighting with yourself never ends. There is no end to overcoming yourself. There is no getting over yourself without service.
You think God realization is a way around that, a short cut past compassion? Meditation is a substitute for humanity?
Funny how the mind works.
Don’t you know that God IS compassion. That is all he is.
God has no door. Humans make a door and then close it on each other.
And call that wisdom?
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 24, 2019 at 07:56 PM
With my many^many steps what is seen to be me is already HE.
Enjoy your service, even lose yourself in it. Get a couple of miracles attributed to yourself as well – much like Teresa and hopefully be known as Saint Spence. My best wishes to you in your endeavors. Atl east you doing good instead of the usual bad which is the norm.
Indeed funny is how the mind works …. . Thankfully mine’s being laid to rest.
Of course God is love and HE rewards those who love and serve HIM selflessly and not his creation and it’s constituents.
Nanak ke Ghar kewal Naam.

10 signs I am a mystic
1 I grab land
2 I grab girls
3 I am a movie star
4 I drive nice cars
5 I jetset around the world
6 I dont attend court dates
7 i commit fraud
8 i have no feelings
9 I cant count
yipee – I am a mystic

So to read here , The Almighty did hide very well this Job
not to argue about HIS Myriad other jobs
with HIS
Before Abraham , . . . I am!
Wow for HIM
777

Hi Smart One
You wrote
“Of course God is love and HE rewards those who love and serve HIM selflessly and not his creation and it’s constituents.”
God IS His creation and all it’s constituents.
If you are truly serving a real Sant Sat Guru, then He is that center. And worship of the Master is worship of God. And in time you will see Him in everything. Then you bow very low, even before your critics. Yes, you serve even them. Because you are actually submitting to God in them.
If you really knew, Smart, if you saw all of the different people you were, their skin color, their beliefs, their gender and different orientations that were all you at some point, how they were born, the circumstances they lived under, whom they loved, whom they hated on, and how they died, in the past, their days of glory, their days of shame, their acts of courage, their acts of selfishness, their days of power and health, their days of injury, sickness and handicap, their moments of leadership, and their lives enslaved and exploited, their lives based on exploitation, you could not speak ill of anyone. You would be proud of nothing.
You would see the child in the aged person, and the aging and infirm in the eyes of the child.
You could not separate from service because it is all the same worship.
And then you would be whole.
Then you would be reunited with the true Lord, the highest, Param Sant, beyond the beyond, Alakh, Agam, Anami.

There’s a pretty simple concept in trading called cutting your losses. Most people lose in trading because they’re psychologically unsound and are controlled by their emotions. They hold on when they lose. They take trades when they should just hold the cash.
Instead of cutting losses and moving on from RS “theology” aka worshiping Punjabi men who you’ve never met, you’re doubling the size of your trade. You are the same people who go broke in the market, and you’re the same ones who will burn in hell forever, but here you are trying to be teachers. Do your own kids hate you?

Mystics’ Consciousness
The essence of mystics’ consciousness is suprarational, beyond reason, logic or images. It cannot be explained by rational thought, although we keep trying to do so. Mystics unite with eternal Reality which is; mysticism speculates on what, how or why it is.
Consciousness in divine oneness, viewed from various historical, cultural and personal perspectives, have occurred with different frequencies, degrees of realization and durations. This can help to explain the diversity in expressions or reports of that spiritual awareness. The ultimate Reality is the same, but absorption in it may differ. That is true for each mystic, as well as between mystics.
Spiritual knowing, mystical gnosis, is complete intuitive insight. It combines the very definition of all three words. Complete: “The entirety needed for realization; consummate.” Intuitive: “Knowing something without rational processes; the immediate cognition of it.” Insight: “Discernment of the true nature of a situation; the penetration beyond the reach of the senses.” Complete intuitive insight precedes divine unity and usually follows it. Union with the divine, however, transcends knower, known and knowing; it is to be at one with the divine essence.
“It is a condition of consciousness in which feelings are fused, ideas melt into one another, boundaries are broken, and ordinary distinctions transcended. Past and present fade away into a sense of timeless being. Consciousness and being are not different from each other. In this fullness of felt life and freedom, the distinction of the knower and known disappears. The privacy of the individual self is broken into and invaded by a universal self which the individual feels as his own. The experience itself is felt to be sufficient and complete. It does not come in fragmentary or truncated form demanding completion by something else. It does not look beyond itself for meaning or validity.” Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan H
“Satori may be defined as an intuitive looking into the nature of things in contradistinction to the analytical or logical understanding of it. Practically, it means the unfolding of a new world heretofore unperceived in the confusion of a dualistically trained mind. …all its opposites and contradictions are united and harmonized into a consistent organic whole. Satori can thus be had only through our once personally experiencing it.” D.T. Suzuki B
“It is impossible [to write about it] because all things are interrelated. I can hardly open my mouth to speak without feeling as though the sea burst its dams and overflowed. How then shall I express what my soul has received? How can I set it down in a book?” Isaac Luria (the Ari) J
“All that the imagination can imagine and the reason conceive and understand in this life is not, and cannot be, a proximate means of union with God.” St. John of the Cross C
“The end of Sufism is total absorption in God…but in reality that is the beginning of the Sufi life, for those intuitions and other things which precede it are, so to speak, the porch by which they enter.” Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali I
“The most beautiful and profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and most radiant beauty – which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive form – this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of all religion.” Albert Einstein
The ultimate Reality of the divine One – its essence surpassing conception or perception – is absolute certainty for those absorbed in it. It had infused itself into every part of their being, confirming intuitive insight of, and increasing love for, the unity of all existence. Most mystics then returned to their limited human self, many of them greatly transformed, but a few did continue in this universal consciousness for all the remaining years of their mortal life.
A little of that eternal life should be integrated into a little of this life. If our spiritual insights are restricted to periods of meditation or contemplation, they might temporarily enlighten us, but they will not transform us. The perpetual mystics, who some call saints, have been completely transformed in every aspect of their being. They live in the divine every moment. Our learning must be incorporated into our being if we are to progress toward eternal oneness.
Deep meditation can result in the absence of any sense of self and other, which Hindus and Buddhists may call samadhi. Most mystics feel eternal union is assured when you give up ego self during this lifetime. Sufis say, “to die before one dies.” The Christian mystics call it “death to self.” Kabbalists refer to it as bittul ha-yesh, “annihilation of the desiring self.” Whenever there is no observing “self” then, in transpersonal actuality, there is no “other.” In self-less living, all is experienced as unity in essence. The greatest achievement in life is maintaining that realization.
Almost every person feels that their life is lacking in some way, although they are seldom able to define it. There always seems to be something missing. True mystics feel wholeness often. It is not a temporary absorption in divine union. Rather, it is identifying the divine essence as the ground of being itself. Living, for them, usually expands beyond their own immediate sentiments, thoughts and sensing.
“My me is God, nor do I know my selfhood save in Him. My Being is God, not by simple participation, but by true transformation of my Being.” St. Catherine of Genoa C
“The individual works in the cosmic process no longer as an obscure and limited ego, but as the centre of the divine or universal consciousness embracing and transforming into harmony all individual manifestations. It is to live in the world with one’s inward being profoundly modified. The soul takes possession of itself and cannot be shaken from its tranquility by the attractions and attacks of the world.” Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan H
“Your deep soul hides itself from consciousness. So you need to increase…elevation of thinking, penetration of thought, liberation of mind – until finally your soul reveals itself to you. Then you find bliss…by attaining equanimity, by becoming one with everything that happens, by reducing yourself so extremely that you nullify your individual, imaginary form.” Abraham Isaac Kook J
“…the annihilation of the ego-conception, freedom from subjectivity, insight into the essence of Suchness, the recognition of the oneness of existence.” Ashvaghosha B
”He who knows Reality, to whom Unicity is revealed, sees at first gaze the Light of Being. He perceives by illumination that pure light. He sees God first in everything he sees.” Mahmoud Shabestari I
Whether mystical experiences vary in their cultural context, or are similar for all true mystics, is less important than that they transform each one’s sense of being to a transpersonal outlook on all life. Mystics’ worldview surpass individual differences. Their higher regard is for the commonality, community and communion amongst all.

You are the same people who go broke in the market, and you’re the same ones who will burn in hell forever, but here you are trying to be teachers. Do your own kids hate you?

Hellfire forever, eh? Sounds like an anti-theist on a rant.
As for moving “on” from RS theology, if a discipline remains
blind belief only, I agree. Then the blindly faithful hop on
soapboxes trying to save lost souls. Even anti-theists are
known to do this. The rants are a little different is all.
Kids are subjected to this all the time at home. They quickly
learn to spot a rant coming on, maybe even nod their heads
piously to make it stop sooner, then swear to themselves to do
the opposite.
Teaching only occurs when legit experience and knowledge is
shared.

Nastiest Jesse comment ever… “Most people lose in trading because they’re psychologically unsound and are controlled by their emotions.” “You are the same people who go broke in the market, and you’re the same ones who will burn in hell forever, but here you are trying to be teachers. Do your own kids hate you?”
If this was targeting me, I have loving children and I’m not trying to be a teacher, just thinking about mysticism and intuition…
Albert Einstein…
The finest emotion of which we are capable
is the Mystic emotion.
……………………
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift
and the rational mind is a faithful servant.
We have created a society that honors the servant
and has forgotten the gift.
…………………..

RIP MRS SHABNAM DHILLON!!!!

Mrs Dhillon has passed on. Did this happen in the UK or had they left Haynes Park after her surgery.
Delhi satsang is scheduled for Friday – perhaps Shabnam and Gurkirat had returned along with Babaji? Anybody has info?

Mrs Dhillon has passed on. Did this happen in the UK or had they left Haynes Park after her surgery.
Delhi satsang is scheduled for Friday – perhaps Shabnam and Gurkirat had returned along with Babaji? Anybody has info?
Posted by: Gumshuda bachha by peela gubbara | November 26, 2019 at 08:18 PM
Going by the posters in here the Dhillons were holidaying at their PRIVATE PROPERTY aka Haynes Park.
Go ask your local centre about the Delhi program.

“If this was targeting me”
No, it’s “targeting” anyone who thinks they know things and wants to spread their cultish thinking in manipulative ways.
On a totally unrelated note, but one equally offensive to most sad people, Jewish comedian Dave Smith says exactly what I say, but in a more tactful way, and makes the world look like a circus of idiots-
https://twitter.com/NickerNation/status/1197746391751307265

Gumshuda bachha by peela
Out of sheer pity for you I’ll share
I hear there is no change in Dubai and Delhi satsang program.
There is more I know but it’s not worth it putting up in here.
Anyways many in here will have objections about this behavior too of GSD.

Mrs Dhillon has passed on. Did this happen in the UK or had they left Haynes Park after her surgery.
Delhi satsang is scheduled for Friday – perhaps Shabnam and Gurkirat had returned along with Babaji? Anybody has info?
Posted by: Gumshuda bachha by peela gubbara | November 26, 2019 at 08:18 PM
This is the information I have:
The three day Delhi programme has not been cancelled and it is said that even the Dubai programme which was recently announced is likely to be held as cheduled.
The body of his wife will be brought back to Dera Beas after Dec. 3 for the last rites.

Jim
Thank you for your response to my post. I never expected anyone would comment, and that shows how we somehow bond here on the CotC.
My post was done right after reading a short story that was full of melancholy. It almost made me cry.
The gist of the story, the Titans, is how the world is at our feet while in our late teens and early twenties. We are the Titans.
Now, in the blink of an eye, that was forty years ago. The swift passing of time was what I had in mind in my comment. Probably didn’t convey that all that well though. Getting old and older I guess.

SP:
Out of sheer pity, why?
What makes you think the sangat would rather not have the satsangs go as scheduled? Predisposition, notion, lack of compassion reeking in your tone.
And why would ‘they’ have objections to the Master doing his duty and putting the sangat above everything else? Isnt that all the once believers now doubters have always neesed to hear anyway? You clearly think everyone here is anti-RSSB. Maybe they’re just seeking, soul searching.
Have more love in you, you seem very bitter. Start with love, then make your way up through tisra til.

So to read here , The Almighty did hide very well this Job
not to argue about HIS Myriad other jobs
with HIS
Before Abraham , . . . I am!
Wow for him
Wow for Her and 4M initiated vs 8
777
Posted by: 🙏❤️🙏🌺🙏🌺🌈 | November 26, 2019 at 02:34 AM

World is passing by. Never know who all to be next and then further next…
Its a running show.
But He is static and free of the winds and storms – passions assailing the minds and therefore He hardly ever change His spiritual itinerary like His esteemed predecessors.
Gods blessing she passed away a bit before His Delhi programme otherwise He may have taken leave of her to deliver satsang to rejoin later for performing final rites of her mortal remains had she left on the day of Delhi satsang.

You clearly think everyone here is anti-RSSB. Maybe they’re just seeking, soul searching.
Posted by: Gumshuda bachha by peela | November 27, 2019 at 06:44 AM
And maybe you are Donald Trump

I would not want to be Trump, thanks.
I am not sure GSD would appreciate you being a slave_of_gsd. Your real Master is the Word not the flesh. He’s been shouting that at the top of his lungs. Don’t be a slave of the physical. Find the radiant. slave_of_gsd.. geez man lol.

“Who will remember my name”
God? Posted by: Michael | November 25, 2019 at 04:36 PM
me:
This is so funny?
Should God find a “second” (in no time) :-). … to remember HIMSELF having pseudo-ed Michael – OMG. ?
I think HE not only remembers the eventual LOVE episodes
from your Crown Chakra and beyond and the tiny LOVE sparks before
and can’t get enough of it!
OFc the slump goes in the swamp – I mean : HE can’t remember a iota of it
You Sir : Would YOU like to remember the smell
Best is to dive NOW in the sweet Song the Master offers all the time and BE That
I guess ShabadNaam got The Sweet Sound
from Our Majesty Huzur Charan Maharaji
💖💖💖 777.

@ Ron Krumpos,
Thanks for your comment and quotes. I looked up your name and discovered that you are an author so I have lots of reading to look forward to. At the moment have found and am reading on my iPad “The Greatest Achievement In Life”. So nice to read positive, uplifting and encouraging words that help in this mysterious and strange world we live in.

I am not sure GSD would appreciate you being a slave_of_gsd. Your real Master is the Word not the flesh. He’s been shouting that at the top of his lungs. Don’t be a slave of the physical. Find the radiant. slave_of_gsd.. geez man lol.
Posted by: Gumshuda bachha by peela gubbara | November 27, 2019 at 10:32 AM
Such profound intelligence taking id’s at face value specially on this site. Thank you for this grand revelations about who is the true guru be blah blah.
Why the f$#@ eager to know about that damn PHYSICAL GSD satsang program and/or go attend it.
Go for the radiant!!!!! Right. Ooops but as per your own admission earlier that’s out of your reach.

In the thread about Gurinder’s wife some dude named J called the death memo “emotionally anemic” which I think is a perfect description not only of that weird press release, but also of the RS cult overall.
Even atheist forms of Buddhism like Zen are more human and humane than RSSB. I’ve done zazen at the local zendo or wtf they’re called and I can’t imagine someone in that community dying and the big boss telling everyone to do more zazen.
RSSB should add “You’re all going to fucking DIE!” to their official letterhead. Bunch of bastards they are.

Clearly out of your reach as well “Slave”

Its a running show. Meditator said above
Yes
It might be my fore-land
which is the Roman Church which it s habits of “praying to Mother Mary”
As if special Grace comes to us from The UK Hospital
where Doctors did their best – they might have been Satsangis
and so blessed
We manmukhs ( don t like the word) are so blessed when from time to time
a great Soul is ascending towards The Beloved and cleans for us
the ascending Path !
I have never seen ShabdNam but feels She is not very far
We all celebrate This Path even on this stupid
anti science blog where they say that one time nothing
is a lot
RS to all the willing!
777

No Jesse
THAT is the point which makes you panicking pissed off
That we don’t die
Even sometimes long before death of the molecules
we realise that we are that hyper sweet sound at the Right side
You go where your heart is and we go where ours is

It hardly matters whether Jesus, Kabir, Nanak, Rumi, Shams, Swami Ji, Sawan, Charan even ever lived. Nor the details of their lives, which may have been uneven, broken, tainted with human limitations of cultural prejudice, and the folly of limited human understanding and judgment.
All that matters is that in their writings they stood for something higher. These characters established in detail a higher way of thinking, loving, believing, hoping, and the worship of that highest concept of goodness and benevolence, the superior power of good over evil, the Supreme and inevitable balance of nature and justice, and the presence of help even under the most dire circumstances, help from within.
To argue over the physical reality or the historical accuracy is to miss the point entirely.
To live with that ideal, as our dearest companion, personified for our own understanding, boiled down into something we can love and hold, and carry with us through all places and times, and which carries us, and the practice of that, is all that matters. This is the gem in the ring, not the base metal setting.
And what raises this to divine proportions is that, even living in the mud, as animals that we are still very much today, such concepts exist.
It is more miraculous that we can believe, and believing be transformed, because there is zero physical reality to these things, yet complete psychological reality, than if they were physically based truths.
It is a greater miracle that in belief and worship of that belief we rise above, as an utmost act of Submission and even sacrifice to a higher ideal, than any evidence demanded by a lax and lazy mind.

@ Spence
>>To live with that ideal ….<< The greatest crimes of known history were all people with and religious or political IDEAL. For their ideal millions of people suffered and were killed. What these missionaries have in common that THEY know for OTHERS what is good for them and are prepared to push it into people like parents in the past would make their children swallow fish oil. Being around "The "do good" people" one easily feels like a dirty piece of cloth within 5 minutes. It took me years to figure out how that worked. MCS in contrast, never "leaned heavily" upon people with his thoughts, emotions etc He stressed that one should do one's duties, not to get emotional involved with the persons which one was to deal in any of the roles of life. and not to leave one's path in life to do good.

Hi Um
You write
“The greatest crimes of known history were all people with and religious or political IDEAL.”
Not really. Most murders are crimes of passion, not compassion. The biggest criminals with an axe to grind,
those with no vision, who love nothing more than themselves, the bullies who would rather impose themselves on others, from positions of power. They use propaganda only to serve themselves. They are politicians only where people have no vision, no faith in themselves, no love of humanity or God.
And their biggest supporters come from people without vision except that they can take. Selfish visions of get rich quick schemes, lustful visions of acquiring material things and people objectified as things, treated as things.
The one of vision needs no worldly status and eschews all authority. The ideal is all.
You are wrong about this. What you offer is the excuse of the passive bystander. The individual who lives off the sacrifices of others. The lazy flag that waves in the wind without any comprehension that others gave their lives to build that tower the flag waves proudly atop.
The mindless flag that has no idea of the symbol it bears, and the humanity that gave all for that symbol.
The senseless flag that waves wherever the wind blows, supporting whomever is in power, making justifications and noble excuses for the oppressors of the world, and in every word hypocrisy rings throughout the land. For they rose to a high place doing nothing.
All the world’s great discoveries, designs and achievements came from contemplation of the ideal, and those who willingly chose to adopt that ideal, submit to it, I’ve their life to it, discovering it to be a truth from within themselves.
You are wrong, Um, wrong about the Path, wrong about Gurinder and wrong about Charan.
But saying so is also meaningless. There are more of you than me in this world.
You and I were raised differently.
But we all have Shabd, The Word within us.
Listen to it, submit to it. It will destroy every false notion, and you will be left naked, humbled, and willing to do as the Lord asks.
Sadly, that’s not passive. It’s active. The only truly free actor in the world.

@ spence
The Idealist I had in mind were the Lenin’s, the Marx’s, the Mao’s, The POL Pots etc of this world
I Also had in mind the Cristian and Muslim armies that were send oud into the world to spread the the IDEALS of their faith, and not to forget the IS.
Why do the America’s, Australia etc … speak English, Spanish or Portuguese? And are predominant Christian? How is it possible that such small countries could manage that?
Because of TERROR.
The same was done by the Muslim Invaders elsewhere.
To do good, to change for the better, means there is something bad, either the person or something else, … un asked for and without the consent of the people that are placed in the position of receivers of that goodness. not only mkes them feel miserable about themselves but, as history shows, has brought suffering upon them.
Stay away from idealists, reformers of the world … they are not even allowed in hell according dante … they are very devils in disguise.
None of the mystics you named, none ever suggested that their path was that of turning an B-class worldly prison into a an A-class prison.
As said again we both stand on different grounds from where things are seen from an different angle.
Te evil of wealth … be it material, mental or even spiritual.
Is not about how that wealth was had.
It is the suggestion that one has something that i superior and a sine qua non for happiness complete humanness etc and that it is in anothers persons hand

@ Spence
To be sure …
The red cross, red moon, flying docters, green peace, Terre des hommes, Unesco, Aid organisations for refugees etc etc …. are no spiritual movements and those working are no mystics.
No doubt, they are the angels of this world

Hi Um
You write
“None of the mystics you named, none ever suggested that their path was that of turning an B-class worldly prison into a an A-class prison.”
But they all lived to alleviate suffering. Charity and service are part and parcel of the path. There are so many hours of the day beyond our meditation, beyond work, beyond sleep. And service is living meditation.
So, Um, no excuses.

@ Spence
>>But they all lived to alleviate suffering. << Who of the famous mystics of the world…"lived [in order] to alleviate suffering .. and was an example??? Rumi? … What did he do to alleviate suffering of the world and taught his disciples to to so and learned that from Shamsz I Tabrizi??? Since when is the sema an course in alleviating suffering …. if it is surely not from the world for worldly purposes. > Charity and service are part and parcel of the path. << Where is that taught by whom??? What did Swami Ji of Agra, Tulsi das, the founders of this school do and teach to alleviate the suffering of the world as an necessity to follow their path?? >>There are so many hours of the day beyond our meditation, beyond work, beyond sleep. And service is living meditation. << When people mostly Americans stood before MCS and publicly demanded that more effort and money of the sangat should be given to alleviate the suffering of the poor, what did he answer?? Where and when did MCS taught his disciples to do what you write here??? He invariable said that no satsangi should go out of his way to alleviate the suffering in the world … so no active seeking "where can I be of help" … but give that help only if such an occasion would arise in one's life and leave this work of alleviating the suffering of the world to those who's duty it was … caritative organisations, governments etc and those working for these organisations. And … did he not advise to spend extra time in extra meditation??? Maybe you should discuss this matter with an teacher of your choice that represents this mat, as I just represent my point of view from where I stand. Sant Mat, Shabd Yoga is no Salvation Army. What you write makes me think of the split within the Theosophical community that led up to the birth of Antropsophy by Steiner....his followers want to bring heaven on earth.

Our oldest dog, ZuZu, died last month. I’m still grieving.
This fits so very well in a comment already I wanted to give
about. “Grievance” of BBJ, Gurinder
or what “J” said
The lack of it !
J. wrote:
“A memo, I am aware, personally ok’ed by GSD. Apart from this your post doesn’t merit any reaction!”
IT IS THE CENTER PIECE OF SANT MAT
As earlier exposed , at all times all 7 chakra beings
are activating one or more of these 7 chakras energy matrix centers
which are the structure where molecules are woven in!
Sant Mat Meditation aims @ to be able to choose where you want to be with your attention!
Grief can be easily exponentialized in the 5 lower chakras
to the point even that people can’t take it anymore and decide to suicide
When you attent to the Third Eye ( 6th Chakra )
and above ( 7th Chakra , The Crown ) merely by Grace
I mean : Grace while you prepare the mind and foremost by Simian & LOVE……..
…….. is very difficult to explain : already between 6 & 7 there is serenity, love , calmness , that is when the entity is accepted (initiated) in that area
Many times I referred to the point that at and above
The N° 7 Chakra, there
is only the sweet Creator in His Sweet Sound Frequency Form
So,
Third Eye meditation makes us able after some training to shift at will in whatever Chakra You want to be
and in cases of on coming grief OF COURSE . one jumps as high as the training and Grace permits
but surely in the grief-less area, The Light at the end of the Bardo Todol tunnel.
Right in the middle of this Tibetan Book of the death, (look it up Bardo Todol) it is stated
“No Jeeva (Soul+Ego) who did in his lifetime Meditations under the guidance of a Saint, needs this book , the uttering during 3 days, because HE/SHE will immediately be absorbed in the Light!”
I paraphrased
It is such a beautiful system and it makes, -mr._J- ,
us invulnerable
that is
to a certain degree, growing every day
This corresponds perfectly with the “Hearing of The Sound”
in which we can make our abode, The Place to BE
To be really That,
to BE at all “times” before Abraham
To radiate happiness and at the same time be hyper effective, efficient
not being hampered by any grief of frustrations
Why would we, We won the lottery
777
Dropping the usual hypocritical Manmukh auto-inculpation;
while being HIM, . . thanks to our Masters, mine Charan Excellency

Hi Um
You ask
“Who of the famous mystics of the world…”lived [in order] to alleviate suffering .. and was an example???”
Nanek wrote that charity is one of the five basic principles of the path.
Jesus died for the sins of the world.
Maharaji said time and again people are meant to help each other.
We are meant for it.
Our primary purpose is our own liberation. We agree on that.
But Charity and service are all a part of that. You can’t become a decent human being without becoming a decent human being.
And there is no liberation without that. Inner and outer life must work together.
So many false Guru’s teach the opposite, that a life of obscene acquisition is fine, and charity only optional. And then, as teue hypocrites, they speak of detachment from material wealth. But it is only detachment so you can go acquire more. It is the alcoholic claiming that don’t have a problem with drinking. They can stop at any time. But they don’t. And then they say they shouldn’t have to stop. It’s all justification for attachment.
And actually, the Master is just the point of focus. It’s really about the Satsangis trying to justify bad behavior on their own part. Living without any obligation to brotherhood.
I’m sorry, Um, there is no spirituality in separating ourselves from our duty to our brothers and sisters and living behind a wall of wealth, land and objects.
In fact, as Majaraji taught us, true spiritual progress makes us better brothers and sisters.
It is the tree that is barren that stands tall and firm.
It is the teee laden with fruit that bends low.
Fruit falls naturally to all from that tree. Have you never heard Majaraji use this classic simile?

Hi Um
“Kabir was unmindful of the situation. A brahmin came begging for clothes. Kabir gave a cloth generously away to him. Then a muslim phakir asked for clothes. He gave the remaining cloth to the second person. He was not worried about the family or the money he lost by his charity. On the contrary he thought he was then free from the shackles of mundane business and could concentrate on God undisturbedly. He could see God in both a Hindu and a Muslim. ”
Should be be anything other than Kabir?
Let us rise to Kabir’s level!

@Spence
These people came to his door, Spence!
They crossed his path of life and he acted as supposed.
He didn’t go out of his house, out of his path, to find somebody to do good.
That is all their is to say to it.

Hi Um
You wrote
“Sant Mat, Shabd Yoga is no Salvation Army.
What you write makes me think of the split within the Theosophical community that led up to the birth of Antropsophy by Steiner….his followers want to bring heaven on earth.”
Rise to heaven within yourself. Then whatever you are, a little bit of heaven is also there.
In heaven we are all one. So if that is within you here, all your actions will gravitate to it. No boarders. No castes. All things belong to the Father.
Where you given a Rolls Royce, you sell it for a Toyota. You still have a new car, and the rest of the money can serve those in need.
Where you are given a jet aircraft, you sell it so that refugees needing passage are funded, and you keep enough for your own flights on commercial passenger airlines.
Were you find yourself with hundreds of centers around the globe, you sell off the most valuable, so that you can open the others to refugees and find them.
Whether you are given villas, you sell them off and rent an apartment.
You live comfortably. You have no goal to change the world. You are simply using what God gave you responsibly.
It’s easy to understand if you have reached heaven. Then it all makes perfect sense, Um. And the test of this world looks crazy. People fighting over rocks? Insanity.

Hi Um
You wrote
“These people came to his door, Spence!
They crossed his path of life and he acted as supposed.
He didn’t go out of his house, out of his path, to find somebody to do good.”
Everywhere you look, nearly every step you take, there are those who need a helping hand. It isn’t necessary to go out of your way. But if you do walk a mile, or five miles, out of your way, do what? Your way is always wherever you are? Nothing is out of your way. It Is your way.
You can find places to volunteer a few hours a week here or there within a twenty minute drive from your home.
You drive that far too join friends for dinner.
So it’s not out of your way at all.
We should not live in caves of Rock or caves of gemstones far from humanity.
That’s not the path.
And Saints tell us not to run from the world… Neither to caves of stone or caves of gemstones.

The true guru drinks, smokes and steals. You find him with gorgeous whores and piles of cocaine, belittling the poor beggars who pass by ruining the atmosphere with their stench.
None of you know anything. You’re parroting books. Shut up.

@ Spence
There is nothing we can do … you think it can be done and that thinking forces you to write as you do and let us hope you als act upon your words….walking the talk
I act upon my words and don’t try to better the world as it is kind of blasphemy to think one can and one has too. You might remember the mystic that was rebukes by the lord because he was willing to use his power to change the river that was eating the land of the villagers.
Kabir, when approached acted as you wrote he didn’t sell something and then went out to find someone to help.
Spence, I never had the intention in live to do good nor bad. Some of the things I did had an positive effect and others negative … that is how it is.
and the other message of yours:
>>You can find places to volunteer a few hours a week here or there within a twenty minute drive from your home<< I never did it, and i don't have the intention to ever do it. When asked for help I gave it for no other reason than to answer the question .. the idea of doing good never crossed my mind and if you don't mind I would like to keep it that way. You have these intentions and for you it is good to act upon them, there is no reason to act upon what you do for others. One day a young fellow complained before MCS that all were giving som little job to do and he was not asked … he answered laughingly maybe the best you can do for the sangat is to do nothing. My point of answering is not in what you prefer to think and to do that is completly yours, i have nothing to say about that but whether it is part of the teachings of the saints. You think it is and i think it is not … that is all right

“””. Where you are given a jet aircraft, you sell it so that refugees “””
The Saint knows very well the Math of Giving more Naam with that plane
than by Quantas
I SOO. regret Charan hadn’t a plane
I’m not a fanatic – I don’t believe that The Saint is all knowing but that
He got knowledge on a “need to know base”
that knowledge is a lot , including
what will happen with this planet and HOW people will be helped
like RSSB helped in Nepal and so much more without agenda.
It s not in the newsletters
HE IS THE DISTRIBUTOR OF NAAM. Wow. 💦. 💦 💦 💦 💦HE IS THE BELOVED OF THE SATGURU. Wow. 💦. 💦 💦 💦 💦
Spence, you should know : give All the grains to the needy
Result : No Harvest
Diminish your judgementals please
Remember : One Initiation pleases God more than a trillion^9
lives full of good works.
The Love so liberated equals a Zillion^7 big bangs full of Charity
and we cannot believe That enough
777

Hi Um
Yes we have a different understanding of the true Path.
That’s OK. You just need to know what your own next step is…
And if not, then to be open to learning about it as it happens.
That’s all any of us can do. When you find your progress is static, try raising your love.
Brotherhood, as a Natural expression of love for the Lord, is at a stage.
Q&A Fayetteville 2007
“Baba Ji, do we have to give up love in order to find truth?”
“No. We want you to raise your love very high, so that on a higher platform of love you will find the truth.”

Hi 777
The true Saint doesn’t need a jet to connect souls to Nam. There would be no European or Asian or American Statsangis, connected long before they were initiated, if a jet was required.
Charan didn’t need no stinkin’ jet.

Hi 777
You wrote
“don’t believe that The Saint is all knowing but that
He got knowledge on a “need to know base”
Spend more time with a real Saint.
Or within.
This world is like the make believe world children play with puppets. When they are the puppet they become that character. When they take off the Puppet they become themselves. The two are related, but only on a subtle level. But like an actor playing a role, the script has little to do with the actor. They are just reading the lines, playing the part. What the puppets call real and what the puppets call imagination are entirely reversed.
But this is true for all of us, 777.
There’s no point in discussing the chakras as if they have any value. Every one of them is a paper candle lantern on a river, soon dispersed and drowned, or a sand mandala gently ruined by the lightest breeze, or a sidewalk crayon drawing crying in the rain, or a paper bag that fell into the sea.

Many of you talk about “spirituality” or “mysticism” as if you’re experts, but you attempt to reduce the entire subject to quote mining and simplifying popular poets from north india from the last 500 years or so.
Do the peoples of SE Asia and Africa who torture animals so that the gods hear the cries practice spirituality or not? Or are they stupid primitives who are incapable of finding god with their undeveloped souls and brains?
Who the hell do you really think you are?
You found a few Indian books. Congratulations, but you’re not the first or last.

“Spend more time with a real Saint.
Or within.”
“There’s no point in discussing the chakras as if they have any value. Every one of them is a paper candle lantern on a river, soon dispersed and drowned, or a sand mandala gently ruined by the lightest breeze, or a sidewalk crayon drawing crying in the rain, or a paper bag that fell into the sea. ”
You’re a cringe loser lol. stfu and stop trying to felate yourself. None of what you say is edifying.
There’s no point in internet nobodies discussing “naam” and “shaabd.” It’s an ocean of rotten piss that smells like homeless people in 2003 Seattle.

Jesse
“There’s no point in internet nobodies discussing “naam” and “shaabd.” It’s an ocean of rotten piss that smells like homeless people in 2003 Seattle.”
To you.
That is your world, Jesse.
You have every right to it. It belongs to you.
In that tiny place only you exist. It’s your home. And you decorate its as you wish. If you wish to make dart boards with pictures of those you hate, it’s your place. Have at it. You can make dart boards and play darts with yourself as long as you wish. All day long, day in and day out. It’s your entertainment.
When it gets repetitive you may choose to blame the dart boards you yourself made. Do that for a while if you like. Life is short, but there’s more where this one came from.

Charan didn’t need no stinkin’ jet.

But, but, if one’s available, in theory, GIHF could
skip taxi’s, traffic jams, airport custom inspections,
flight delays, and instead max out appearances
at satsangs. At least regionally.
Or, is the suggestion it was only a jet setter’s toy…
used purely for family or personal business ventures?
Or that it was Exhibit A in an obscene pattern of
greed and corruption? Or, that it would be best to
opt for a humbler travel option… preferably “coach”
since Charan traditionally rode commercial flights?

💦 💦 💦.
Still insist ! 🌺
💦 💦 💦

@ Spence
>>Q&A Fayetteville 2007
“Baba Ji, do we have to give up love in order to find truth?”
“No. We want you to raise your love very high, so that on a higher platform of love you will find the truth.” << The answer was given in a particular context to a particular person an should not be generalized. Which love for whom should be given up … probably the question was related to the outer form of the master . >>try raising your love<<

@ Spence
Why dont you seek your possessions and house to help refugees? Sure that would be a worthy sacrifice. Now that is Godly.
You claim to have inner knowledge but I know that is not true as i have read what you write. You will turn this against me. You want GSD behind bars . Those bars are being forged by every word you write.
I have lost faith in people boring me with inner knowledge and then talking like a man whose mind is his master. God day

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
“Or, is the suggestion it was only a jet setter’s toy…
used purely for family or personal business ventures?
Or that it was Exhibit A in an obscene pattern of
greed and corruption? Or, that it would be best to
opt for a humbler travel option… preferably “coach”
since Charan traditionally rode commercial flights?”
True Spirituality does not require even one rupee to be taught, felt, heard and seen around the world.
I only suggest that as the false Guru’s love to acquire such things with any number of excuses, they aren’t great company, and they certainly don’t need others to offer new justifications for excess.

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
“You claim to have inner knowledge but I know that is not true as i have read what you write. You will turn this against me. You want GSD behind bars.”
You must have missed the dozen or so times I suggest we all pull together and help get the debt paid. It’s a family thing, Arjuna, not a blame thing.
But for any progress, there must be transparency. And acknowledgment. Right now the full story is still being uncovered.
So let’s not hide from the truth. Let’s acknowledge it, share the burden and move forward together.
If Gurinder is guilty, then so are you and I. We accepted initiation. That’s deeper than birth in a family. We are in this family for better or worse, Arjuna.
That means for better or worse you are my brother. If you are my brother, if Brian Ji is my brother, then Baba Ji is my brother.
Not a blame thing, just a truth thing, and a family thing.
Imagine a family that turns away and runs from each other when one member or another gets themselves in hot water.
Running away is on us, then. That’s our fault.
Meanwhile there is a debt to be paid and we are not helping. And that debt is on our family.

@Arjuna
I love U
and not from our western jazz culture You might
enjoy this song about the Path anyway
https://youtu.be/lJXLqAutql4?list=RDZlS8t8_nAHo
777

@spence
BBJ. will follow your advise and us a donkey like Jesus
Are you managing your hospital / patients that way?
7

Hi 7
You asked
“BBJ. will follow your advise and us a donkey like Jesus
” Are you managing your hospital / patients that way?”
Miracles happen in hospitals.
The work is incredible and very fulfilling.
A change in attitude, a moment of insight, people understanding each other for the first time and BANG patients get better sooner, fewer medical errors, fewer patients need to return to the hospital, and their experience skyrockets.
Nothing like it!
Baba Ji walking the halls of the Emergency Department late at night.

My Baba Ji doesn’t need a jet to show up in the hospital healing the patients and the staff.
Your Baba Ji might just be the fulfillment of your request.

@ spencer . Wake up man! You nor I do not know if the debt was GSD right to have. Listen to yourself as you bind and forge the steel that will hold for wish him to be behind bars. The bars will be for you. Who will listen to your cries. Dont take on GSD. We dont know what he is
Surely you can feel the heat from the iron smelting for your bars.
The debt is neither mine nor yours- dont be so silly with such comments,
Good day

@ 777 love you too man!
Nice song

Yep Arjuna, overgrown baby that he is, finally speaks sense about Spence. Both need an ego thrashing – the Baba might just give it to them if they lucky.

Georgy, Arjuna
“Be kind. It is a way of being wise.”
Collette
We all live in our own prisons. Arjuna, you have your bars, Georgy has his.
Truth, which is as difficult as a new diaper to a crying baby, may not feel great. But it will in a bit.
So the truth must come out, and we can all work together to make up the debt. It’s very simple.

When we work together to lighten someone else’s burden, we lighten our own!

No spence I helped people escape bars. All I said we dont know and then Georgy Fat Scone Porgy turns up. What like of fat boys name is Georgy PORGY
Georgey my fat scone eating friend . You would urinate if you ever met me in real life.trust me that why I ain’t really offended by what you say. Make your self useful and go to Haynes to check out the aunties. Little boy x

@You arrogant bitch spence said “”So the truth must come out, “”
The truth IS out!
49 pages

“When we work together to lighten someone else’s burden, we lighten our own!”
This is not what is taught in Sant Mat. Each person has to deal with their own karma, including Gurinder. I wonder Spence, if you ever were a satsangi.
“Meanwhile there is a debt to be paid and we are not helping. And that debt is on our family.”
Such nonsense, as a 74 year old ex-satsangi living on age pension which barely covers my bills and you are insisting that we should help Gurinder pay his bills. Not even laughable. It sounds like you Spence are not sound of mind.

@Jen. said :
It sounds like you Spence are not sound of mind.
Therefore I explained the 7 chakras situation
Although we call the lower chakras “low”, they have immense power
in each of us
There are 10 000 warnings in literature
Where you think Hitler had his hypnotic voice from?
An ant of mine was invited to shake it’s hand and was crying for month from emotion
Spence
I said filthy bitch to U while smiling
but imaging that there is a high level satsangi here who will lose his temper
Then there is only BabaJI to stop him
and BBJ might be a little distracted these daysAfter all BBJ said not in Hongkong : 4info. : Read Spence
77
Let me tell U
There is no karma-credit 4Daiichi
Go out of this

Jen
Give what you can.
If you can give nothing material, then at least good will.
And when you share good will, Jen, as you often do, your Zen, that is wealth. It’s priceless.
Stick with the wealth you have. Be generous with that. It’s priceless.

Other ways of giving..
Visit a shut-in
Volunteer with hospice
Volunteer at an animal shelter
Bring your pet to visit a senior
Sew senior or shelter clothes that need mending
Donate coffee, sugar or cups
Share stories or play games with children at a Shelter or seniors at a home or assisted living center
Play music for children or seniors
Help a blind person complete their chores
Help coordinate free rides to a doctor
Lead a senior center sing along
Help an altzheimers patient take a walk
Share stories with children as a school volunteer as a big grand brother or grand sister….
Put your mind to work, reach out and find a way to connect.

What is the history, big or small, that you are making?
How will you make your history?
The world has reality and meaning beyond what meets the eye.

“What is the history, big or small, that you are making?
How will you make your history?”
Hi Spence, not that interested in making history. Prefer watching and observing, thoughts and feelings. Being aware. In Zen Thinking awareness is the formless and infinite emptiness in which consciousness awakens. Its an ongoing practice.
Thanks Spence, I liked your comments. I was cross with you and now you’ve put me back on track. Love and compassion 🙂

I’m so wise and smart. Please read my prose about the sant sat guru real and true master.

My Baba Ji doesn’t need a jet to show up in the hospital healing the patients and the staff.
Your Baba Ji might just be the fulfillment of your request.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 30, 2019 at 10:30 AM
How come your Babaji doesn’t keep it simple – make hospitals extinct. No more sickness. Just avoid the jet lag, late night walks etc. And how come he skipped the London hospital whilst in UK?
Besides, has your beloved Charan retired?
Stop posting rubbish!!!!!

Hi DungenX
You asked..
“How come your Babaji doesn’t keep it simple – make hospitals extinct.”
Maharaji wrote about this. So much karmic web. People have debts to pay and payments to receive from each other. Hospitals are places of miracles.
You asked…
” No more sickness. Just avoid the jet lag, late night walks etc. ”
If you withdraw from this reality, you have effectively accomplished this. GFI, dude, GFI!
You asked
“And how come he skipped the London hospital whilst in UK?”
Which Baba Ji are you talking about?
You asked
“Besides, has your beloved Charan retired?”
He is always with me, or more precisely, I live in Him. If course, I need course corrections all the time, but he keeps me on a nice leash. I wander around and sniff the flowers, and the fertilizer, but I get pulled in when I need to get back on path.
DungenX
Believe whatever you like if the result is that you help.
Deny any belief that leaves you static, passive.
We are all on the path of personal progress, suited to each of us.
Pick the one that works for you.
We lived in a multi-verse, just in case you missed the email.
My Charan is with me as I work. Baba Ji shows up for the other souls and is the real father to my son.
They inspire me, they change history in an instant. It’s a wonderful thing to see.
Find what inspires you.

Hi Jen
You write
“In Zen Thinking awareness is the formless and infinite emptiness in which consciousness awakens. Its an ongoing practice.”
Truth. This is the daily practice, called by different names. This is the point. That emptiness is treasure.

Hi Um
“Sister we should try our best to help them. We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. Only humans can be helpful to humans. But we should not be involved so much that we do not have time for our own selves.”
– Spiritual Perspectives, Vol 3, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, page 154, question 205.
You see Um, it is a matter of balance. But it is a requirement.
” We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. ”

Hi 777
You may use any language you like. I understand your intentions are good.
My point about Chakras is just that they are all perishable. They deserve no attention at all as they are already self – maintaining. When that attention comes from attention on permanent things, even great and noble ideas, or contemplation on love, or Truth, or anything that is larger than we are, that is out of balance. And balance is restored attending to greater things, including helping others. If our attention will take us to greater things, we should put it on greater things. Then everything below is nicely re-aligned, like raising one end of a small stand of Christmas lights, all the others fall in line below. Attending to them takes us out of balance.

How come your Babaji doesn’t keep it simple – make hospitals extinct. No more sickness. Just avoid the jet lag, late night walks etc. And how come he skipped the London hospital whilst in UK?
…
Stop posting rubbish!!!!!

Hey, so many questions and complaints. You could boil them down.
In fact, why didn’t he just stop the Big Bang? There would only be pure
consciousness at rest, silent, unperturbed… rubbish-free.
“The gentle voices I hear explain it all with a sigh” (Tuesday Afternoon)
–The Moody Blues

The wisdom never stops. Real life Chopra bots.
You’re so wise and so smart. People look to you for answers.

@ Spence
I don’t have the book you mentioned, so I cannot check the context, the question that was asked and what was going on in that session before that question was asked.
There are many ways to understand even the simplest sentence like “John has a bike”
It can mean that John is the one that has one and not somebody else, or, that he “has” one already, or, that he has a bike an not something else for transport.

“So much karmic web. People have debts to pay and payments to receive from each other. Hospitals are places of miracles.”
“Which Baba Ji are you talking about?”
“They inspire me, they change history in an instant. It’s a wonderful thing to see.”
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 30, 2019 at 09:05 PM
So much karmic web. ——> Is it? And i was under the impression people get sick, hospitalized and stay there on their own accord and some die or some escape from the jaws of death because of the late night ghost (GSD) walking the corridors either waving his miracle wand at some or skipping some.
Then you ask which Babaji? It’s your Babaji. The one you claim walks the corridors. Mine is very clear – Karma reigns supreme, no miracles, nobody can either give or takeover someone karma. Every karma has to be accounted for and monetary due to / due from isn’t the only channel to settle karmas.
Then you go on to say “They change history in an instant” . Since you live in your beloved Charan ask him when is he going to change history next – this time undoing the horrors of WW2. And do share other such instances of changing history??
Probably the only Uncle/Nephew pair in recorded history who can change history i.e. past occured events. Amazing duo your Charan/Babaji are. BTW mine can change the future but will not!!! They abide by HIS will.
Do say a Hi from me to your duo.

Hi X17
You asked and commented
“So much karmic web. ——> Is it? And i was under the impression people get sick, hospitalized and stay there on their own accord and some die or some escape from the jaws of death because of the late night ghost (GSD) walking the corridors either waving his miracle wand at some or skipping some.”
” people get sick, hospitalized and stay there on their own accord… ”
No, things happen as a result of genetics, environment, circumstance s and lifestyle. No one chooses to get sick, have their life threatened, or die. Your are greatly mistaken about that.
You wrote
” some escape from the jaws of death because of the late night ghost (GSD) walking the corridors either waving his miracle wand at some or skipping some.”
No. Baba Ji ministers to all of them. Like pruning trees, they grow as they must, but some adjustments, some nurturing, some curtailing, all to help them grow. An orange tree cannot be made into an olive tree. But an orange tree can be helped to be a good strong and giving orange tree.
You wrote
“skipping some.”
No. No one is skipped. He is there with everyone, intimately, nurturing, comforting. The sea must be crossed, but he is everyone’s intimate companion. Every human being, every living creature on earth.
You asked
“Since you live in your beloved Charan ask him when is he going to change history next – this time undoing the horrors of WW2. And do share other such instances of changing history??”
History is unfolding through the work of careful hands. See above. It’s when you watch the ship change course that you are amazed. But it was always the destination. You are witnessing it.
At that moment of grace, that was always predestined, to see the hand of love and compassion, acting in perfect balance, it’s amazing.
But as to changing history, or the future, or the present, it changes instantly every time when you understand it differently.
It was never what you thought, it isn’t what you think, it won’t be what you imagine.
Hence it is always changing for you. You are slipping through the multiverse, instant by instant, one creation after the other, seamlessly. It is when you are caught off guard, that the your passage becomes apparent.
And the more you grow to see things from a subtler place, then human history, your notions of all that is real, and all your confidence in reality and what is possible is entirely disrupted. And that’s a miracle.

For example x17
You might slip until that multiverse for a moment where all souls are equal, and these castes of material wealth and poverty are impositions made by a handful of truly evil oppressors. They are indeed ignorant, but so powerful that everyone else becomes their victim. Some of the people you adore, in that alternate universe, are absolute tyrants. But usually, when most folks slip from here to there they can’t handle it and subconsciously, they transport themselves right back here.
How odd is it that in a place of true equality, tyrants of sheer evil emerge?
Now, in a place of complete enslavement, those tyrants are victims also, and noble leaders of the other prisoners.
You actually have more power to slip through time and space to the creation you like, but the cost is generally more than people are willing to pay.

Hi Jen
The place you wrote about is the exact place Swami Ji wrote about.
But very few saints reach the highest region, according to Swami Ji:
“Saints alone reached the fifth stage, Sat Nam, and only a few among them reached the eighth stage, Radha Swami…”
“… Two stages below this is the region of Sat Nam. The saints have called it by various names, such as Sat Lok, Sach Khand, Sat Shabd, Sat Nam and Sat Purush. From this it would appear that these regions are the resting place of the Saints and Supreme Saints. It is on account of this that the Saints rank as the highest… The Radha Soami Pad is also called Alak, Agam and Anami… Nameless, endless, without beginning,… Without location… Cannot even be termed a region. ”
That is the empty space from which all things emerge.
But not all Saints get there.
Each Guru only teaches what they know. But they think it is the Supreme Truth. But they can only speak to their own understanding.

Good to see we’re back to full time thoughtless proselytism.

Spence,
Your fakery about travelling the inner regions was called a while ago. Your external knowledge about Santmat and/or the primary role of perfect masters is abysmal as well. So kindly do us all a favour…… Stop your gibberish.
With great difficulty we saw the end of Robbin’s Oneness. Hope we don’t have to endure your version much longer.
Thanks in advance for your understanding.

“But very few saints reach the highest region, according to Swami Ji”
Spence, I’m really over it, don’t care about saints or this Master or that Master. I am my own Master even though I don’t call myself Jen Ji (lol). I’m voting for Jesse Ji because his comments make me laugh and laughter is the best medicine.

@ Jen. Thank you for your last post. I spent a far bit of my life thinking about saints and what stage they have reached. What a waste.
Spence is not God therefore he is not in a position to state that some saints dont reach the highest level. Imagine if you really had access within would you be boring people online. You would lose interest as you have just answered the one most important question – there is existence beyond the human form.
The devils hands have been busy with some on here.
All the best Jen. Let people on here forge the bars which will hold then .

Hi X17
You wrote
“Your fakery about travelling the inner regions was called a while ago.”
How can you know about my inner experiences? Are you claiming to have ESP? Or to have different inner experiences?
If so, please tell me what I’m wearing as I write this, what I’m thinking, and what I ate for dinner. Even I’m not sure what was in that soup. Any thoughts?
“Your external knowledge about Santmat and/or the primary role of perfect masters is abysmal as well.”
In your humble opinion?
You are most welcome to quote directly any Sant Mat text in defense of your opinions. And then we will be discussing an actual text.
What you will find, if you do this, is that you are mistaken.
But if not, if I’m mistaken, then I’ll learn something new. Happens several times a day. I’ve gotten used to it. It’s called learning.
If you are mistaken, then you can learn something new, too.
It’s all upside when two people of different opinions communicate with respect and facts. And listen.
You write
“So kindly do us all a favour…… Stop your gibberish.”
LOL… Gibberish is just an unkind way to tell the world that you don’t understand.

“one thing is true that he is not a saint. saints never act this way.
show me in history even one saint that acted like he is doing. ”
Show me in history one saint. What evidence do we have at all of these supernatural beings among us?
On this site the devout can’t even decide if these saints are real or imagination, or if they are real what their characteristics, qualifications and abilities are.
I’m sticking with Vietnamese and West African animism with all its animal torture and sacrifice. If the gods don’t hear sentient animals cry out in severe pain, they certainly won’t give blessings. A saint told me this.
Disagree if you want, but it probably means you’re a racial supremacist or Aryanist of some kind, and I do NOT communicate with your bigoted kind who think spirituality is limited to one tradition.

Hi Jen
I cited Swami Ji because of his statement that very few of the Saints reached beyond the fifth region to the eighth, when the eighth is described exactly as you have described that place where consciousness comes from. A place known to others of a different path.
Why so few Saints get there? We all came from there.
Maybe in Swami Ji’s understand that place is so rarefied. But if you are A Saint seeking the Father and can’t reach your own true home?
That isn’t true. It’s false.
Anyone who looks to the divine is already on a perfect path. And everyone who does so. Many windows, one light.

Hi Arjuna
You write
“Spence is not God therefore he is not in a position to state that some saints dont reach the highest level.”
Actually Arjuna this is what Swami Ji writes, and it looks quite strange to me.
He writes
“Saints alone reached the fifth stage, Sat Nam, and only a few among them reached the eighth stage, Radha Swami…”
ONLY A FEW AMONG THEM REACHED THE EIGHTH STAGE….
So according to Swami Ji very few Saints reach the highest region.
What an odd thing to write.
A Saint, who serves the Father, can’t go home?
That region is everyone’s true home. We all came from there and we are all sitting there now, at another level of consciousness. Anyone can go there if they are sincere in their desire for the Father. They don’t have to understand it fully at all. The pull comes from Him and that pull cannot be affected by our ignorance.
What Swami Ji wrote is false. Anyone, even us meager plebes, can go home at any time.

Spence, you wrote
How can you know about my inner experiences? Are you claiming to have ESP? Or to have different inner experiences?
Me: should I pity you. For once I will and remind you to look up your own posts detailing your inner experiences and which to much glee to many in here were proved to be fake. Rest assured I won’t waste my spiritual wealth checking out about you.
Then you go on and ask if it’s a humble opinion that your external knowledge about santmat is abysmal
Me: no it’s not my humble opinion. It’s an arrogant one of a 5th generation RSSB follower!!!!!
Discuss Sant Mat with you…… Na. Absolute waste of time. You have your duo uncle/nephew to tell you all about it. Enjoy your time with them. You know who I mean right. But just don’t post that gibberish in here. We don’t want to die of boredom.
Btw, did you say a hi to them from me?

To all concerned:
This is proof there is no such thing as inner experiences for human beings.
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2019/04/my-zen-snow-globe
Our brains are likened to son’ globes, random twatterings of matter that contain fictional images.
All hail the Sno’ Globe

“Gibberish is just an unkind way to tell the world that you don’t understand”
No, she was correct. You speak gibberish that changes from one moment to the next.
I speak gibberish too, but I do it intentionally to show how dumb the entire topic of measuring religion is. You’re trying to convince people that you’re smart and important and you won’t stop until we all accept it.
By the way, you either start sacrificing water buffaloes or you’ll never get to the 9th stage that soami ji never heard of. The highest and truest father region God hates pussies who are afraid to slice the heads off of animals. This is a fact.

Simple
Look where your heart is
Which Chakras are generated, accumulated
That’s where everybody goes; go. go. go
777
💖➽🔥 🎥💖

Hi X17
You wrote
“Me: no it’s not my humble opinion. It’s an arrogant one of a 5th generation RSSB follower!!!!!”
Yes, that’s a problem.
But if you don’t wish to discuss Sant Mat here, in any detail, with any factual evidence from the books, and only fifth hand, hand-me-down superstitions and prejudices, why are you here?
It’s cowardly to stand like a frightened child behind your 5 generations of supetstitious elders. You can walk, chew gum and think for yourself all at the same time!
And you can invent your own new prejudices to replace the old ones!
I do that at least once a week!
This is the Open Thread. And if Jesse and you and others can hurl unfounded insults, filled with hatred, cruelty and venom, from what must be unfulfilled lives, which is your every right, then I can share visions of brotherhood.
At least Sri Jesse occasionally crafts his insults with brilliance.
X17, if that really is your name, which I doubt, try harder.
You asked me before to STFU
But don’t you know that I’m already doing this as a leading member of
Special
Task
Force
Unicorn?
Look for the Unicorns!
It’s a job I take very seriously, just a seriously as you take yourself.

Hi Jesse
You wrote
“I speak gibberish too,..”
Yes, we all know you do. You are fine.

Hi Mike
You wrote
“To all concerned:
This is proof there is no such thing as inner experiences for human beings.”
None? LOL!
Not even imagination? Nor perception? Nor memory?
Here is a tiny secret. Every experience you have is inside you.
Yes, it’s all inside you. That’s true. It isn’t somewhere else.

Spence,
I am a clueless seeker. Would you be kind enough to list 5 verses (shabads) composed by the founder of your faith ie RadhaSoami. Founder is Soamiji right.

Clueless, you’re probably just messing around, but there’s a shabd called dham apne chalo bhai that’s really good. I left that religion long ago but I still love that poem.

Hi Clueless
Do you mind if I call you Clue?
Here are six..
“Hansas come forward to receive the entrant (surat)
” They have come to take me to alakh Lok
” The paragon surat goes in and gets Darshan of Alakh Purush
” Songs of congratulations are being sung there. All Hansas
(denizens of Alakh Lok) jointly perform arti.
“I effect my ingress into Agam Lok. Secrets of Agam Purush are revealed to me.
” No one has revealed the secrets of that region. Rare Saints have spoken about it in a gupt (hidden) way.
“Taking pity on jivas, Radha soami has now revealed the secrets openly.”

Clueless, you’re probably just messing around, but there’s a shabd called dham apne chalo bhai that’s really good. I left that religion long ago but I still love that poem.
Posted by: Jesse | December 02, 2019 at 07:30 PM
You really think I am messing around??? Maybe yes but not in the way you thought.
What if the RS shabds have not been composed by Soamiji and only artificially attributed to him?
It’s a nice shabd no doubt. One of Hazur’s favorite.
@spence
You want to engage on Santmat basis book knowledge? Books which your GSD says to burn LOL. Besides in your case why not basis your actual inner experience?
Time to search the truth about – did Soamiji compose the RS shabds? I suspect it’s likely to be elusive like X17 my dear surface physicist and the RSSB books aren’t a good source for this.
X17 the 5th generation RSSB follower and X17 the fifth fundamental force of nature.
@X17 (the poster) – Would you oblige and provide clarity to me, a clueless seeker. Much appreciated.

Again : The Old Town s Road ( Youtube ). . ; Listen
The Old Books ,. . . The Old Songs
“Anybody tells me nothing”
So wise , that expression
In that time without TV, Radio even they were great
As actually nobody understands them anymore
Y e s
It’s better to burn them
Like the sweet carcasses of great meditators are also burned
If U haven”t it within … one thing is left : Direct Dharshan
Therefore will come: 3/4D, 16 – 32 K Real Working Darshan
and Streaming
when the waters will make everything more difficult and book float away
777

I correct myself
I have one book, I had yo order a second one cause I had eaten the first copy
“Spiritual Letters”
The first full of my remarks and it helped me above measure
Dun’t burn
and my first time book was “Autobiography of a Yogi”
from Yogananda
google piet romein
777

Hi Clue
You wrote
“You want to engage on Santmat basis book knowledge? Books which your GSD says to burn LOL. Besides in your case why not basis your actual inner experience?”
Your questions are great and they contain all the answers…. Book knowledge alone is worthless. But if it matches your own experience in a few lines, it’s elegant.
Even the words of the Bible are meaningless from a historical perspective. But Christian mystics wisely teach that the Bible is a living document that is only completed with your own experience of those truths.
And they are not of much historical validity, but entirely of psychological value and validity. And spiritual value, if you understand this to mean the internal expression, the internal experience of the divine.
The laughter, applause and shouts of joy and welcome as you enter those higher regions cannot adequately be described. Except your experience is precisely of those things. So reading about it is just a reminder of the internal life.

–
Why the RSSB guru has broken an initiate’s heart
In my eyes this answer marks the Level of SatGuru
It would be good to ask the Lady how she feels now!
That is because the man telling Krishnamurti in Gztaad Switzerland about the burn-out of his farm
Next robbed in the train and beaten , lost a leg
after arriving and explaining he got Krisnamurt’s reaction as follows:
“Yes Sir, . . What’s the problem?”
And that man feels so fine now with that strange answer
They just give the answer which is the best for the person
777

@ 777.
I thought that. He probably cleared a lot of her Sin. Dont feel sorry. I can remember the Great Master hitting disciples with his stick what lovely grace .
You know it 777

Hi Arjuna
You quoted our dear friend 777 then commented :
“I thought that. He probably cleared a lot of her Sin. Dont feel sorry. I can remember the Great Master hitting disciples with his stick what lovely grace .
” You know it 777″
My how things have changed. Or I’m missing something (nothing new for me ;))
There was a time you were very hard on Baba Ji for being unsympathetic to your situation, and isolation.
But now it’s all grace to be so hard on a disabled woman? Asking more from her than he himself is willing to give?
Can you help me understand your new found admiration for cruelty? Elevated to divinity?
What am I missing here?

@spence
You can search the books and listen to the tapes, you will find that his reaction is the standard one … you can read their reaction as an neglect of empathy or as pointing out what I happen to call the small path.
The small path is related to all things Christ must have in mind when he said “love your enemies”
Loving enemies has nothing to do with the pain that is inflicted by the enemy, nor is it a justification for the evil that was done that caused the pain … it is the small way that has the best outcome for the victim …. love!!!
Small, because it is easy to love those who do whatever suits one and makes one happy.
Again this is my understanding of the teachings of mystics

Hi Um
You write
“You can search the books and listen to the tapes, you will find that his reaction is the standard one … you can read their reaction as an neglect of empathy or as pointing out what I happen to call the small path.
The small path is related to all things Christ must have in mind when he said “love your enemies”
This woman is not Baba Ji’s enemy. She is his sister, and needs to be treated as such. Just as Christ treated his disciples as his brothers.
He washed their dirty feet, not criticize them for it.

@ Spence.
I changed my mind. That’s all.
@ um .
We are not all trained to think like that. Of you need books to understand human emotion and flaws . You are pretty sad man. Book a holiday with Spence so he can bore you with Christ stories which he wasnt there to observe.
Laters losers

@ Spence
Things are what they are
but seldom what they appear to be
let alone how they ar presented
….. there are more ways to deal with suffering then the usual … like christ showed there are other ways than usual with enemies …. that is all
There is the high way where the masses walk and smaller ways.
It so simple … yes … walking the high way is more common and more comfortable.
It is up to you which one you prefer

Hi Um
I’m with you..
You write
“It so simple … yes … walking the high way is more common and more comfortable.”
That would be to have sympathy for the Guru, who has all the power. And to justify his every action, even to emulate it, however unkind.
But my heart goes out to the woman in the wheel chair. Apparently this is a minority view among many in the Sangat.
I suggest the superstitions around the perfect Master actually block common decency.
And I’m pretty sure a true Sat Guru, who might chide a daughter, only to flood her with inner wealth, would abhor the justifications for cruelty from the Sangat, as a terrible, terrible misunderstanding, indulgence in ego and religion.

@ Arjuna
The same things can be said by different people and are reacted to in different ways.
We approach th same things also in a different way the more we grow older and depending what life had to offer.
We all hold on to what has helped us in the past o deal with the world.
Sometimes we realise that the understanding that was once the best to have, has become contra productive. I carried with me a grudge against my mother for many years. An remark of his uncle showing the small path to go made me think again and in a different way. First reluctant as I felt not understood by him and expecting some sort of compassion for my feelings. But giving it a chance I started to shift slowely. Shortly thereafter the grudge had disappeared … the scars were still there and today it is up to me how I deal with the memory of my upbringing.

@ Spence
You feel that a teacher has to react as an common man, in an common role … I don’t.
If I come in the hospital I don’t expect and professional to deal with me as is common for family friends etc. I want him to do his work properly and if he does I will be gratefull
We say that soft docters mak stinking wounds
It is that simple ….

@Spence and Arjuna
Some days ago there was a link to a TED talk by a therapist by the name of Lori Gottlieb with the tittle “How changing your story can change your life”.
She uses the concept of storytelling and I that of games people play but basically thy are the same thing. Her re-writing is the same as taking the small road.
She is very funny also
Have an look if you didn’t yet … or do it again

Hi Um
You write
“You feel that a teacher has to react as an common man, in an common role … I don’t.*
No, Um. I think the true teacher demonstrates a level of compassion not found anywhere else.
A common teacher becomes impatient and hard on their students. But it is poor workman who blames their tools.
They come to alleviate the suffering of the world. As Christ taught, and Maharaji noted, this woman is already condemned. Condemned to a life imprisoned in her disability.
And as Maharaji taught, it is not the place of Christ to condemn those who seek compassion, and in the company of compassion, to become themselves compassionate.
You believe compassion is common. But you are mistaken, Um.
I hope I’m not too hard on you.

@ spence
>> I hope I’m not too hard on you. << That is up to you to think about … you know what you are doing and why. I just read your words and compare them with what he used to say and what can be listen to these days on tape or read in his Q&A books and as said again and again I do not find his words reflected in what you write. Not that it matters but what is square is just not round and increasing the angles it still does not become round.

Spence:
Hi Mike
You wrote
“To all concerned:
This is proof there is no such thing as inner experiences for human beings.”
None? LOL!
Not even imagination? Nor perception? Nor memory?
Here is a tiny secret. Every experience you have is inside you.
Yes, it’s all inside you. That’s true. It isn’t somewhere else. Spence
Exactly my point.
All so called inner experiences are imagination.
Game set and match to me 🥳

Hi Mike
You wrote
“All so called inner experiences are imagination.”
Please read what I wrote again. You missed it.
“Not even imagination? Nor perception? Nor memory?”
Not just imagination, Mike. Your entire view of this physical world. All the things you learned, filtered through that brain. Not just imagination. Everything. Even the things you can’t explain. They all have a physical basis, and the brain is connected to this physical world in ways we don’t understand much about. And it’s own operation you can learn to perceive.
I came to you as love, and you thought that meant zed.
And now you have lost the match.
Too easy.

Hi Um
It is only when you realize your are wrong, not before the Master, but before just another plebe like yourself, that you will withdraw from blame.
And when you are hungry, poor, disabled, and someone, a stranger, offers you food and shelter, just because they feel that you are their brother, their heart goes out to you as of your were a part of themselves, then you will understand the path.
By choosing to turn your back on others, you are forging your next lesson.
But isn’t that how the wheel works? We forge every spoke.

@ spence
As said before, your point of view, is nowhere reflected in the teachings of Sant mat.
If you can find it in the Philosophy of the masters. vol 1-5, you are most welcome.

But my heart goes out to the woman in the wheel chair. Apparently this is a minority view among many in the Sangat.
I suggest the superstitions around the perfect Master actually block common decency.
And I’m pretty sure a true Sat Guru, who might chide a daughter, only to flood her with inner wealth, would abhor the justifications for cruelty from the Sangat, as a terrible, terrible misunderstanding, indulgence in ego and religion.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 05, 2019 at 12:11 PM
This is only in your misfired brain. Satsangis with even little understanding of santmat will say Master knows what’s best for a disciple – now that disciple may be wheel chair bound or blind or whatever.
And infact what a Master will abhor is people like you butting in and opining what he ought to have done or not done or said and/or not said.
Knowing an individuals account of what supposedly transpired during a Q&A, you have almost penned a book of your views thereon – maybe without even knowing what happened with that lady thereafter. Maybe she has already paid for the ‘gifts’ received.

@ Spence
You words remind me of what happend a couple of years ago in Italy. During a festival in a small town in Italy I wanted something to eat and went into a bar that sold all sorts of sandwiches. I asked him to make me one with cheese. To my supprise he said “No, we don’t sell cheese sandwiches” I said: “Look there is the cheese, there are the rolls, what os the problem.?”
“It is not on the menu” he answered. I could not believe my own ears. Realizing that he was not going to make me a cheese roll i walked out and turning my head i said “Well … the day will come that YOU TOO will be hungry, and you will encounter somebody that is unwilling as you are … in that day you will remember me and whish he had acted otherwise.
That was than, years ago … now I would walk out with a smile on my face.

All so called inner experiences are imagination.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” ― Albert Einstein
“I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?” –Chuang Tzu

Dear Spence,
You wrote:
“Mike.
I came to you as love”
Thank you Spence.
That means a lot.

Dungeness
Imagination is the dream we all share
Professor Eugene Genetics

Hi Um
You wrote
“As said before, your point of view, is nowhere reflected in the teachings of Sant mat.”
This is false, Since pointed out before, on Nov. 30th…
Here I will the words of Maharaji from Spiritual Perspectives
“Sister we should try our best to help them. We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. Only humans can be helpful to humans. But we should not be involved so much that we do not have time for our own selves.”
– Spiritual Perspectives, Vol 3, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, page 154, question 205.
You see Um, it is a matter of balance. But it is a requirement.
” We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. ”
So this notion of helping others, which you believe is foreign to Sant May, is in fact a duty, according to Maharaji.
What you claim isn’t actually Sant Mat.
You asked…
“If you can find it in the Philosophy of the masters. vol 1-5, you are most welcome.”
How many citations will it take to believe what you refuse to believe?
“The foundation of love is to give. Whatever there is love, there will only be the feeling to give, and the desire to receive anything will never be formed. Lovr is selfless. It is not selfish.”
— Great Master, Sawan Singh Ji, Philosphy of the Masters, vol. 2, page 253.

@ Spence
I could not find it in my books …. but that doesn’t matter i searched for charity because tht is what you are writing about and did find it.
It is in serie three, in the chapter on DHARMA under the heading CHARITY, starting page 212 until 219.
I speaks about ZAKAT[ the muslim vow on charity] and DASAMANSH[ Charity of one-tenth of income as can be found in other religions].
Then comes an interesting part with the heading “to whom should charity be given”
Interesting ….. have a read.
I could not find in that part of the philosphy that charity is a sine qua non for walking the path as you suggest, in contrary.

Dr Eugene Genetics
Not Professor.
My padwan is boasting in his posting

Imagination is the dream we all share

But you can awake from dreams and the mystic’s path
uses that imagination to “embrace all there ever will be
to know and understand.”
From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMu5XLux_GA
“Imagination is not what you think. It’s how you think. Cognitive research reveals that images, metaphors and stories are the basis of our mental operating system: the origin of our intuitions and our irrationality. Counterintuitively, more accurate insights do not come from increasing information or reason, but educating our imagination.”

Hi Um
Well if you have found the citation from Spiritual Perspectives I think it is certainly a direct as can be
” We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. ”
This is simply love. The term charity has become a formal and documented act.
Love and brotherhood, helping others, volunteering somewhere, or just helping others where there is no thought for yourself. That’s service to God whatever it takes place.
“Those whose eyes are open see all human beings as manifestations of God, like rays of the sun or the waves of the ocean.”
Sawan Singh, Philosophy of the Masters vol. 2, pg 114
You see Um, it is not simply the Master who is a wave from the ocean that is the Lord. It is everyone…. Including you and I.
” Therefore, who can be low or who can be high?…. There is only one Good in heaven and one family in earth……Mulana Rum says :
” The current of love from the one God is flowing theory the entire universe. What do you think when you look at the face of a man [or woman]? Look at him or her carefully. He is not a man or woman, but a current of the essence of God (love) which permeates him. ”
Ibid
Naturally we should treat everyone as our family, our dear brother or sister, or beloved mom or dad, our adored and protected child.
Sawan Singh goes on to quote Krishna…
” He who is able to see My form in everything, who realizes that they’re is no difference between different beings is, in fact, the true seer. Such a person I can never forget.”
Ibid, pg 115
You see Um, this is the real and true Sant Mat.
Before there was a Dera, or a single international center, before even the name” “Sant Mat” there were the teachings. And they will be here long after Sant Mat becomes a formal religion and then fades away.

Hi Um
More from Majaraji on helping others…
“When the devotion of the Lord comes in us, we find that same devotion of the lord in everyone. Then we actually want to help everybody. We feel like helping because we find the lord in everyone. The lord is our object of love, he is our beloved. So we want to do everything for others, just for the love of the lord, and not the personality. But that is possible only if we develop that devotion and love for the Lord within ourselves. ”
You see Um, helping others is the natural result of spirituality. It is not something we do to gain spiritually, but is the result of it.
Then we cannot avoid helping anyone and everyone. It is just natural.
And as you can see it is a natural part of the path, at a stage of our progress. You cannot be intimate with the Lord without automatically becoming a brother or sister to all people, and all creatures.
And so, just as you would help your bother or sister, mother or father, son or daughter, you help anyone you encounter who needs the help, and anyone else nearby. Driving a few minutes to volunteer your time is no burden. That is actually, just your duty as a citizen of the human race.
As Maharaji said so often..
“Sister, we should always try to be helpful to others.”
That’s Sant Mat.

@ Spence
>>You see Um, helping others is the natural result of spirituality.
It is not something we do to gain spiritually, but is the result of it. << That is how it is Spence …. Helping others is not something we do to gain spirituality. [1]And so, just as you would help your bother or sister, mother or father, son or daughter, you help anyone you encounter who needs the help, and anyone else nearby. This is what he used to say, help those who cross your path and to whom you have an dutie. [2]Driving a few minutes to volunteer your time is no burden. That is actually, just your duty as a citizen of the human race. This what he attributed to those who are professionaly involved in welfare for others it would be SEEKING FOR … or …. GOING OUT OF PATH ...something he said we should not do. The reasons for that are ample cklearified in the Philosofy of Sant Mat under the heading DHARMA / to whom should we give charity and the warning that we run the risk of creating karma, that binds us more and more to this world. Things are what they are, also written words of saints but seldom what thy look like let alone how they are PRESENTED Spence I have never heard him say that one has to go in to the world to see if one could help or as you say ""Driving a few minutes to volunteer your time is no burden."" Nor did he ever say: "That is actually, just your duty as a citizen of the human " We were not supposed to transform an prison environment B in A. You know that

Hi Um
I see the point you are trying to make. But you are really ignoring what Maharaji and Sawan Singh taught, by referring to formal charities.
It’s not about creating Karma but helping wherever we can. That’s all service to the Master. And when you see the Master in the eyes of the indigent and poor, then you will understand that helping them is not creating any new Karma at all. You are just in His Will. He is the Doer. You are serving Him, intimate time with Him.
As you can see from what Maharaji said several times, we are born to help each other. So long as we maintain our focus on Him, service helps our meditation, and is no harm to it. It is all His Will, not ours. Just give all that to Him, and you go be a better brother or sister, son or daughter, father or mother to a stranger who needs that help.
There are so many hours of the day outside meditation and Satsang. How do we spend it? Local Seva is a great way to actually protect and nurture that atmosphere of meditation.
You have taken the problem of creating Karma to excess, to justify going out of your way to avoid helping others. There is Karma in that also, Um. Negative Karma. You still have debts to pay, and Seva in your own local area, where your Karma is, is a great way to do it. So you don’t have to come back.
But if you are avoiding volunteering your time in your community, then you are avoiding the Karma allotted to you in this life. When you see that whole record, you will understand. Until then, let your heart lead you to connect with and feel for these brothers and sisters. Take the risk of compassion. As Sawan Singh wrote, we are all in the same family. It’s not right for family members to avoid helping each other.
So if you have a few hours of the day, you give. You are supposed to do that, as service to the Master, no one else.
There was an eye camp for a reason. Charitable hospitals for a reason. Langar for a reason. Not just at Dera, not only for Satsangis. But Dera is only a model of the little Dera you should build in your heart and in your community. And if you don’t, even the big Dera has failed in its purpose.
There are services where you can volunteer in your own community. Dera in your community waits for you. Master has set it all up and He is there waiting patiently for you to come and do your Seva today. This is a point Baba Ji has stressed over and over and over again. It is not His responsibly to do all the Seva alone, or to have Satsangis around the world only serve at Dera, without being moved to any compassion in their own communities to help. In fact, as temperamental as Baba Ji is, seeing this sort of behavior, where being helpful is limited to Dera and RSSB, makes him quite cross. Then it’s just for show. But if you serve in a local charity or service, without anyone else knowing about it, then it’s all intimacy with Master.
Doing local service us just to help. Has nothing to do with making Karma. Master handles all that. And we help because we are moved to do so. People are suffering. Its not about doing good deeds. It’s not about you or me. It’s about their suffering and need. We already are being taken care of. It’s about them, not us. So put yourself aside, just as you should in meditation, also in service.
To ignore that or to go as far as you are going, out of your way to avoid helping, really is a complete corruption of what the Master’s are all about. It’s not Sant Mat.
They are not the only ones responsible to help the world. You have your part to play also. That’s why you are here.
Let me put this to you in another way.
If people are suffering in your community, and you can help alleviate their suffering today, by bringing them some clothes, by giving some time to babysit their children, by helping bring a meal to an elderly shut – in, why on Earth would you refuse?
That shut – in, that infant is Master.
He will take care of all the karmic issues, if there are any. That’s on him. But your job is to live the compassion you have asked of him. You give to those in need the love you expect and demand of Master.
You will save yourself substantial delay in your own progress.

They come to alleviate the suffering of the world.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 05, 2019 at 04:25 PM
If this is their purpose all are abject failures.
Pure BS.

You see Um, helping others is the natural result of spirituality. It is not something we do to gain spiritually, but is the result of it.
Then we cannot avoid helping anyone and everyone. It is just natural.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 06, 2019 at 08:21 PM
Again BS. The natural result of spirituality is gaining an understanding of and living in HIS BHANA (God’s will)
jou raaj deh ta kavan badaa-ee.
jou bheekh mangaaveh ta ki-aa ghat jaa-ee.
(If You gave me an empire, then what glory would be in it for me?
jou bheekh mangaaveh ta ki-aa ghat jaa-ee. ||1||
If You made me beg for charity, what would it take away from me? )
Or
Tera Bhana meetha lage
(Sweet is thy will)

One final point, Um
Service in the community, when you are doing it in service to Master, isn’t creating new Karma and isn’t saving the world. It is simply living in balance. While you are here you have Karmic work here. Master is in charge of all that, but what is before you, in that range of miles around you, is what Master has arranged for you.
Give what you can, in time, effort and kindness, from what you have of these, as well as money and resources. Do what you can.
But if you do not do what you can, with just a small degree of effort, within the life of meditation, within the physical resources of your available health, available time and mobility, you are actually doing the opposite. To be passive when you where given life here, is to be passive about your own debts and your past in your own spiritual development. The two are not separate and cannot be conveniently compartmentalized. And then you are incurring debt, running up the taxi meter while idling, insisting the driver to just wait and wait. And Master is your cab driver. Debts will never get paid that way.
You can’t ask for help and then refuse to do your part. Or only do the easy, convenient and comfortable parts. Spirituality doesn’t ‘work that way. It’s 24/7 thing Um.
I say this because if compassion doesn’t move you to forget yourself and help without even thinking about it, then perhaps self – interest, and pointing out self – destructive behaviors, might help inch you forward out of your comfortable warren. You aren’t a rabbit. You are a lion. Go roar! (that’s from Baba Ji).

@ Spence
So be it … You have done what you could …. the wheel of karma will turn and turn.
My final word to it …. I never had the intention to do good nor bad … but what I did had good and bad consequences.
Pasta is al dente or not .. there is no good to it
Once an youth pressed me heavily to take responsibility for the problems he faced. I told him that i am not Jesus Christ and if it would be the case that a key to his happiness was to be found in my pocket I would run to the window and jump out of it out of sheer terror knowing that life was already difficult enough for myself to handle let alone that I could carry the burden of another person.
In the rather elaborate correspondence I had with MCS he never advised me anything you stress here … the opposite I would say …

Gurus Inc
You wrote
“The natural result of spirituality is gaining an understanding of and living in HIS BHANA (God’s will)”
You really think His will doesn’t encompass the entire creation?
Why don’t you go there first, and then come back and tell me charity, kindness and brotherhood are outside of God’s will.
LOL….
Charity kindness and brotherhood are only outside your will. N
But all charity, kindness and brotherhood, even the tiniest acts of compassion, are all God’s will, and only God’s will.
But you can see how easy it is to constrain God, to enslave God to justify your limitations, because He remains in silent service, rather than take the risk of expanding your vision to partake of Him in His fullness directly.

Hi Gurus Inc
Sawan Singh writes
“All spiritual practices and undertakings are for the sole purpose of awakening love. Without it all modes of prayer and worship are virtually fruitless. As soon as love enters the scene all blessings start accumulating in the heart, whereas all blessings depart with the elimination of love from the scene of life.
“When tinged with love, even our worldly affairs – for example our family life, business transactions and other activities – become a source of happiness and bliss. We learn to love the Lord as well as his creation in the recognition that we are all partners in his grace.
“All are called partners in Thy grace.
Thou art seen alien to none.
” Sabhe saajheevaal safaayan
toon kisai na diseh baarha jee’o.
– Guru Arjun, AG 97
“Love enables us to feel a kinship with all life on earth – to feel that all are children of the same benevolent Father. All jealousy and ‘otherness’ disappear from the heart as soon as love comes in. Love is the path of complete self – sacrifice and giving one’s heart away….. The state described above is the end result of all repetitions, susterities and prayers, and one who has attained this state needs no other form of worship.”
– Great Master, Sawan Singh Ji, The Philosophy of The Masters, volume 2, pages 3-4
It is love that reveals we are all brothers and sisters in the same family, with one Father.
And so it is natural that we treat strangers as we would our beloved brothers, sisters, mother and father, and dearly adored children.

Hi Um
You wrote
“. I told him that i am not Jesus Christ and if it would be the case that a key to his happiness was to be found in my pocket I would run to the window and jump out of it out of sheer terror knowing that life was already difficult enough for myself to handle let alone that I could carry the burden of another person.”
You misunderstand. To help others anyone can do. If only Jesus Christ could help people alone that would be an insult to Jesus Christ. He can work through many, many people, just as Master does.
Helping is not taking on anyone’s burden. It is actually lightening your burden, handing your burden to Master. Because you are now living in His will. It’s all His doing now. And if He wants you to help others there won’t be a discussion. Then you don’t have any burden at all. But this all happens in its own time.
I’m sorry I do not know about your personal correspondence with Maharaji. If you asked whether you could spend some time helping others and He advised you to avoid helping others it can only be because your own personal duties were being neglected. Of course they come first.
But I suspect you may only have asked Him if you had to help others, if it was a requirement. In that case He may have told you simply to meet your first responsibility, to meditation.
But as I’ve written, at a stage, you will be unable to avoid helping others. You will be compelled to do it. Just as both Master and Christ are compelled by our Father. You will be with them and will do as they do, all in the Father’s will. You need not worry on that front.
But I would not advise you to justify anyone else’s inaction in the face of need or want of others. Especially not to claim helping others is outside of Sant Mat teachings. It is quite the opposite.
Nor would I suggest you hide your own situation behind Sant Mat. It is not to be used to justify inaction or unkindness in the presence of need and want at any time.

Spence, you speak of “service” many times in your comments.
Um says, about carrying the burden of another person… “In the rather elaborate correspondence I had with MCS he never advised me anything you stress here … the opposite I would say …”.
“Spiritual Gems” page 90: “What is real service to humanity? To free the soul – which has been for ages subject to transmigration – from the cycle of births, and to raise it to the pure spiritual region from where it will never be sent back to undergo births and deaths. All other forms of service are merely temporary.”

@ spence
It is simple, I have never heard him stressing helping others the way you write about it.
Nor did i found anything of the same in books or know of activities of the sangat in that direction.
I have taken your words as your personal motivations and goals in life, and I am in no position, nor willing to attach any value to it. It is all up to you how you conduct your life.

You are love. You are bliss. You are consciousness. You are existence.
Know this. Be this.
Nothing can harm or trouble you, as none of what seems to be, actually is. Only you, are. There is only, this aware presence that I am.
I Am That. I Am.
Zen Thinking

Hi Jen
Our first duty is to our spiritual practice. All Saints teach that. There is no substitute for it. But the reward of true spirituality is love. And true love is union with the divine. In that union we are one with His will. All people are children of the same father. And we are therefore brothers, sisters, fathers, daughters, mothers and sons to each other. When we see others in need….
“Sister we should try our best to help them. We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. Only humans can be helpful to humans. But we should not be involved so much that we do not have time for our own selves.”
– Spiritual Perspectives, Vol 3, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, page 154, question 205.
” We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. ”
You wrote that we are bliss. Isn’t that an aspect of love? Is that just for ourselves, Jen?
“The foundation of love is to give. Whatever there is love, there will only be the feeling to give, and the desire to receive anything will never be formed. Love is selfless. It is not selfish.”
— Great Master, Sawan Singh Ji, Philosphy of the Masters, vol. 2, page 253.
So who are we giving to? And what are we giving?
We can do our meditation and help each other. Helping others, when we are actually doing so in the Presence of the Master is His Will. He is doing it all. That’s the only way acts of kindness can be done. The two things are naturally related.
Acts of service for the purpose of any personal or Spiritual gain, of course, is backwards. But helping others to the natural degree of our compassion, as part of our devotion to Master, is actually part of the path. And it is part of basic decency and humanity.
We will never change this world. But we should always be happy to do our part.

Hi Um
You wrote
“It is simple, I have never heard him stressing helping others the way you write about it.”
If you can just accept the Master’s words, that is more than enough…
“All spiritual practices and undertakings are for the sole purpose of awakening love. Without it all modes of prayer and worship are virtually fruitless. As soon as love enters the scene all blessings start accumulating in the heart, whereas all blessings depart with the elimination of love from the scene of life.
“When tinged with love, even our worldly affairs – for example our family life, business transactions and other activities – become a source of happiness and bliss. We learn to love the Lord as well as his creation in the recognition that we are all partners in his grace.
“All are called partners in Thy grace.
Thou art seen alien to none.
” Sabhe saajheevaal safaayan
toon kisai na diseh baarha jee’o.
– Guru Arjun, AG 97
“Love enables us to feel a kinship with all life on earth – to feel that all are children of the same benevolent Father. All jealousy and ‘otherness’ disappear from the heart as soon as love comes in. Love is the path of complete self – sacrifice and giving one’s heart away….. The state described above is the end result of all repetitions, susterities and prayers, and one who has attained this state needs no other form of worship.”
– Great Master, Sawan Singh Ji, The Philosophy of The Masters, volume 2, pages 3-4
“When the devotion of the Lord comes in us, we find that same devotion of the lord in everyone. Then we actually want to help everybody. We feel like helping because we find the lord in everyone. The lord is our object of love, he is our beloved. So we want to do everything for others, just for the love of the lord, and not the personality. But that is possible only if we develop that devotion and love for the Lord within ourselves. ”
– Maharaj Charan Singh, Spiritual Perspectives, Volume 3, page 155 (answer to question 206
Just try to achieve the level Maharaji is speaking about in order to have that love, that bliss, and that communion with the Lord so that you naturally act in His Will.

@ um
Dont pay to much heed to Spence. His opinions are dangerous and he is a text book guru. Empty vessel rattles harder.
I sussed him out long time ago.
All the best

@ Arjuna
🙂

Spence, you’ve flipped back into weirdo religious preachy church type language. You’ve shown your true colours. It is strange because most of us here on this blog are probably more atheist than religious. You need to find a pulpit where you can chastise and preach to people who might even believe in the nonsense you speak of.

Didn’t read everything but agree OF COURSE
with the latest quotes from MaharaJI Charan & Sawan
It corresponds very much
with my
“How it works” piece
Love is everything
but I insist 1000% on
Some know more than others
and when you know the ship will definitely sink , . . . . ;
as a Master you invest ( eventual very greedy )
in swimming lessons and boats
to make the drama as soft as possible
Don’t give away to eat the last sac of semen
I didn’t”t check them all but guys, dolls
take google earth and look at what level above sea level
these grounds are situated
PS
Ever heard about waves 200 feet high . . . at coasts
Do some imaginations
777
This BBJ is awesome and yes hard when needed
Re-see the movie “The trigger effect”
and that was a tiny roll over of power only

Hi Arjuna
I think Um has tried his best to say that kindness, compassion and brotherhood are not part and parcel of Sant Mat or Spirituality.
I believe kindness, compassion and brotherhood are qualities that arise naturally from any spiritual progress, and that this occurrence is acknowledged by the Saints. In fact I’ve cited statements by Sawan Singh and Maharaji in support of this view.
Do you have an opinion about the statements of Sawan Singh and Maharaji cited above? I mean, can you offer something that isn’t a personal attack?

@Spence
>> I think Um has tried his best to say that kindness, compassion and brotherhood are not part and parcel of Sant Mat or Spirituality. << These words of yours don't reflect my intentions nor what I wrote; they are part and parcel of the teachings of Sant Mat but not in the way you present them here. Your repeated advise to me, to go and seek after opportunities to practice these values, is the only point of difference, and the suggestion for the dear consequences if I didn't. That is all.

Hi Um
Understood. We are both from different cultures, looking at the same teaching. We will never see it quite identically at this level, using mind. But so long as we understand our mission is to transcend this level, that is the only important thing.
When I came to the path, Managing a program for mentally and physically handicapped young adults, my Satsangi friend asked why I would want to continue working with such a heavy population. To me it was living in God’s will. It was no burden at all.
But that was my own conditioning. From inside, it is all freedom. But outside looking in, it may appear very difficult. From inside, there is no way to proceed even ten seconds without Master. But from outside the fear of being overwhelmed by such work is understandable.
So when, as fate would have it, my own child was born with disabilities, it was actually a gift made by God Himself to a parent long prepared. Sam was delivered by Cessarian, and wide awake. As they pulled him from the womb he and I looked at each other, the first person he laid eyes on, and he was smiling. And so I smiled, and knew no matter what difficulties lay ahead, we were living in the palm of Master’s hand.
To me these things cannot be separated. Love, Service and Master are all one, Him. But it is a matter of how things were arranged in my own life that I am thus.

Hi Jen
You wrote
“Spence, you’ve flipped back into weirdo religious preachy church type language. You’ve shown your true colours. It is strange because most of us here on this blog are probably more atheist than religious. You need to find a pulpit where you can chastise and preach to people who might even believe in the nonsense you speak of.”
So you believe it is nonsense to help each other as a personal duty?
And you have flipped back into personal attacks against an innocent (if misguided) human being. Just to defend your position of no obligation and no interest to help anyone? To give back a little for all you were given?
Now which is the real Spence and the real Jen?
I suspect these are simply different sides of the same personalities.
And probably we are both appalled and disappointed to discover those qualities in each other.

One more point, Jen
You claim this is an Atheist forum. All well and good!
An Atheist is often the most compassionate. Because they don’t assume that helping is God’s job. For them, there is no God to fix the problem. And therefore they have no excuse to remain idle.
If they don’t step forward, no one will. They don’t care about incurring Karma. Even meditation, when others are suffering, it’s bull shit to them. They see only need and they reach out to help. They are called from their own heart to help. And they go help.
When Brian Ji steps forward in a public hearing to defend people against religious prejudice, he is helping others out of compassion. He has zero personal interest. He does it from zero religious superstition. And even when doing so comes at a personal cost, a personal risk.
The duty to compassion, and to reaching out to help others is often the strongest among Atheists. They love the Truth. And why they are often God’s closest allies. If there is a God. If there is any chance of a Divine benevolent power, their religion is Atheism, and Atheists arevtheir largest constituency, their most reliable workforce for good.
All Satsangis will be dragged, even by Shabd, out of religion and superstition, and through Atheism as a critical stage of their own progress. And in concert, they are where we often find so much compassion.

Hi Um,
I hope all is well with you! An interesting conversation you’re having here with Spencer in which you repeat your understanding that “mystics” do not have any interest in making society or the world a better place, an idea you also frequently mentioned on the RSS forum a few years back. My interest in the discussions here wanes, but I found this particular conversation weirdly and profoundly contains and explains almost everything that is wrong with Radhasoami Mat as a viable vehicle for spiritual growth, and what real “liberation” actually feels like as opposed to holding a complex of concepts and beliefs such as RS Mat. I think it’s worth unpacking precisely why, if you don’t mind.
Firstly it’s worth mentioning what appear to be two fundamental facts to your position: 1) You repeatedly mention you are not a “mystic” yourself and have had no personal, direct realisation of the states of consciousness they refer to & 2) Although claiming to make an argument about the real teachings & behaviours of so called “mystics”, you appear to actually be referring more specifically to Charan Singh and his well known emphasis on “mystics” not coming here to change “iron chains” for “gold chains”, but to free us from chains altogether.
There is just so much to unpack here….where to begin!?
Let’s begin with this; As there is nothing at all to indicate Charan himself was a “mystic” in any meaningful sense of the term, it brings into serious question the validity of any of his comments about “mysticism”. Being nice and humble, the chosen grandson of a previous alleged “mystic”, having a lovely looking turban and white beard and a nice smile does NOT make one a “mystic”. There appear to be millions of people out there who do not understand this, who conflate the theatre of guru-dom with real life mysticism. Read Legacy of Love, which Charan, nice & humble non-mystic that he was, pushed through for publication before he passed away. Read it as a confession of a non-mystic upon whom millions of religious followers projected hyper-inflated mystique (“I feel that I am like a stone idol in a temple. According to their notions of love, some bathe it with cold water, some with hot water, and some deck it in fine clothes, but it is still an idol all the same.”).
So Um, you as an admitted non-mystic are quoting the highly selective religious teachings of another more or less admitted non-mystic to generalise about “mystics” since time immemorial. I suggest that is not a very good basis for genuine insight and understanding?
Look, it’s easy to understand. Charan is parroting an ancient gnostic doctrine, and you are parroting Charan. Rather than merely repeating these doctrines, let’s examine them and their implications more deeply. First of all, it’s worth noting that not all ancient dualistic gnostic doctrines are/were world-denying, demiurge-infused, focused on the negative in the world, desperate for “escape” etc. One could write multiple volumes on the historic socio-cultural context for these beliefs and all the variations, and how they relate and conflate with other more life-affirming (read ecstatic) “mystical” schools of thought. But what is obvious is that by no means at all are all “mystical cosmologies” dualistic, life-negating, “escape from reincarnation” based etc. Radhasoami doctrine was heavily influenced by Anurag Sagar (almost certainly not authored by Kabir, despite RS claims) as evidenced in numerous quotes and anecdotes going back to Soamiji, Jaimal and Sawan. Anurag Sagar is, in my opinion, a deeply backward, rambling, incoherent and absurd view of reality, pure childish fantasy. It is also deeply life negating, a throw back to some schools of ancient gnostic mysticism. That along with the elements of a slightly less bizarre & extreme gnostic cosmology of the bhaktas in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib helped form the doctrinaire position within RS dogma that we are here to “escape” “chaurasi”, not exchange gold chains for iron chains, which Charan parrots in his satsangs, and then you parrot here.
It is an easy to understand position (I myself believed this for years), most especially understood by those who have not “realised” anything directly, but are instead believing in stories and fairy-tales, the appeal to the intellect (which is dualistic, of course 🙂 and emotions.
This is where, for me, it gets interesting. This whole story of being a “soul” “trapped” in “chaurasi” within an “ego” and the whole purpose of life and creation being to “escape” it to some eternal “sach khand” is an oxymoron and deeply incoherent, because not only does that not only explain nothing about the “purpose” of creation. but because it is so profoundly ego-centric, a story about reality that centres entirely around this personal ego which is supposed to be a fiction (maya). We should not be surprised if a story based around a fiction turns out to be a fiction, too.
“Sach Khand” is where fictions cease. There is no longer a story, but only truth. And the indisputable truth is, creation, existence and consciousness is here, now. Once the so called “ego” of RS disappears, what remains and where do “we” go?
I contend that the deepest mystical experiences are not a conceptual and visionary fairytale where this existence is a negative, dreary, miserable “foreign land” where our “souls” are trapped and from where we must escape the clutches of kal to get to some far removed heaven of eternal bliss whilst all the other “souls” we no longer care about as we’re so spiritually advanced remain in perpetual suffering…..
I contend, rather, that the deepest mystical experiences as described by real mystics in the first person, is an experience that nothing BUT the “Divine” exists, and that perceptions like “ego”, individuality, souls etc is merely a game of Divine Forgetfulness, the masking and unmasking of ONE indivisible consciousness. The experience, if deep and persistent enough, radically alters their perception of reality and how they interact with it. Fear of death vanishes, the idea of “escape” becomes utterly absurd…..because for a true bhakta or “mystic”, where is there to go to escape the “Divine”? Only an “ego” and it’s delusions could imagine such a scenario! Nowhere to go, nothing to do, no reward or “regions” wanted or expected, no striving for “escape” from some mind-created hell. True “submission to the divine will” it is to give up all desire for “sach khand” or “liberation”, that is true humility, true devotion.
And the point is, this direct insight of the deepest mystical experience is reflected in the lives of many mystics and mystical schools of thought. In mahayana buddhism it is reflected as the glorious bodhisatva vow, where one makes the vow not to attain Nirvana until all sentient beings have attained it. I say this because this level of compassion is a reflection of the understanding that, ultimately, we are all connected, and in a universe that is ultimately fashioned from and an expression of a Oneness we call “God”. In the Oneness of Sat Purush, there is no sitting aloof in “Sach Khand” in perpetual bliss whilst unfortunate souls are suffering down here in Kal’s domain. That is a fiction or fantasy of the individuated ego that has no experience of what it speaks. Instead, Sat Purush literally IS all the “souls” suffering, as well as enjoying, this vast, incomprehensible and mind-blowing creation. Only an ego can imagine a God and a Heaven where they sit in eternal bliss and ecstasy, like some sort of perpetual orgasm, whilst apparently separate souls are suffering far, far away……This is a belief that belies very, very little actual experience of the deeper states of mystical experience and ecstasy, which is a more imminent and pervasive ecstasy not conditioned by the contents of consciousness (meditative ecstasy for eg), but by the very taste and texture of consciousness itself which pervades every moment, from hell to sach khand, from deep suffering, pain and grief to overflowing love, ecstasy and joy.
Such a direct experiential realisation, as has been had by countless people, “mystics”, throughout history, radically changes one’s perception of reality, values, behaviour, way of life etc, especially depending on the depth and persistence of the realisation. Contrary to your claims, I suggest many mystics have been extremely vocal about notions such as compassion, love, charity, forgiveness etc, and that many of them were “social justice warriors” to the extent they were persecuted, imprisoned and even killed by the authorities of their times. If you’re not seeing that, then I suggest a reread of the history of the world’s mystics is in order, but this time without Charan’s RS anti-world tinted glasses.
We now live in a time where the mindless devotees of modern corrupt “Babas” who have extremely rich, powerful and corrupt politician friends, who are caught amassing obscene wealth fraudulently, committing acts of thuggery, death threats etc, compare them to the real “mystics” of the past. This is to miss the obvious. These real “mystics” were almost always very poor, relatively unknown anti-authoritarian people who spoke out against the abuses and injustices of their kings and priestly rulers, and who were often persecuted for it sometimes to the point of death. This is not the same as leaders of large global religions with huge influence which are openly wooed by numerous interest groups, politicians, orgs etc, who are friends with a whole host of rich and powerful people and politicians, who are then “persecuted” for billion dollar fraud, death threats etc. To conflate these two entirely different types of people is really to miss the point.
The mystical experience is, essentially, an experience of the unity of all things. Love and compassion it’s natural fruit, as an expression of that understanding of the unity of all things. Experience and values are radically altered to that of the “normal” world and people. The deeper and more persistent the experience, the more likely it is that the “mystic” will reflect values such as love, compassion, charity, forgiveness. For great mystics such as Jesus or Nanak, it is precisely these values and indeed overt teachings about social justice that caused them to be persecuted. Their greatest emphasis on a spiritual practice wasn’t, as RS claims, “shabd yoga”, but actually love, compassion, charity to the degree it appears unreasonable & taboo to societal rules. And that is probably why we even know of their names today. When you look at these mystics through the distorted lens of RS dogma, it may seem otherwise
So, whilst immature wannabe mystics are plotting and scheming their “escape” from this “chaurasi” hell-hole, selfishly, or more correctly ego-centrically, paying no concern to the infinite other “souls” who weren’t smart enough to recognise and get initiated by the correct Baba Criminal, the real mystics acquiesce to reality, humbly accept their fate/destiny, realise we are all connected, overflow with love and compassion for those still under the delusion of separation and individuality (which is the root cause of all suffering), and try and make the world a better, more loving, accepting and compassionate place with every one of their acts however small or large it may be, spontaneously, even if it results in their death they do not give up on their values or being vocal about it. They are not here to make people “escape” because they see no jail and no imprisoner, they see only the Divine. And in so doing, they partake of the real mystical experience.
Things are complicated when SOME (we are talking about one particular subset of Indian mysticism that emphasises this dualistic gnostic doctrine, and it is noteworthy it’s height was during the most chaotic and brutal of times in India’s known history, from the 15th to 18th centuries) of these mystics do talk in terms of “imprisonment”, “kal”, “escape from chaurasi” etc. That is essentially the theological socio-cultural context in which the Granth Sahib is grounded, but if one reads the Jap Ji of Guru Nanak closely for eg., one is struck at how profoundly non-dual it’s message is, and does not accord with the dualistic “escape” paradigm of Radhasoami. So, it is a difficult act of discernment to understand what is context (gnostic paradigm as backdrop to all experiences) and what is content (Nanak’s non-dual vision as recounted in Jap Ji, where there clearly is no “path” to the path-less Divine). The same contradiction/confusion arises for example where in one single solitary verse Nanak criticises the calculated, linear path of breath control of the yogis, despite it being obvious and in numerous other verses that he and his contemporaries gave breath control high prominence as a spiritual practice, or where he criticises those who make a doctrine out of not eating meat, even though he was probably vegetarian/vegan himself. His teachings, like that of other mystics, are subtle and hard to understand for most people who see only in black and white, linear and absolute terms, who think stories and concepts are reality the itself.
Regardless, from Nanak’s first proclamation after attaining his “Sach Khand”; “there is no hindu, there is no muslim”, to his countless pleas for social justice for women, the poor etc, to his imprisonment for criticising a ruler for his unjust treatment of the people, it is clear even Nanak who was deeply embedded in a life-negating gnostic paradigm, placed huge, perhaps even supreme importance on social issues as part of a spiritual life.
What to say of all the countless mystics from other traditions that have no connection to the negative, dualistic gnostic myth of imprisonment and escape, that from the get go are based on a non-dual world-view and the deep ecstasy, love, joy, awe and astonishment inherent in existence?
Kashmiri Shaivism is one such paradigm where existence & embodiment is considered an astonishing joy and privilege to have, the whole world a ecstatic outpouring and expression of the Divine. And shabd yoga evolved out of this school of thought. Unfortunately, imo, evolving out from that school, during the bloody days of medieval Indian history, shabd yoga then became associated, instead, with the dualistic life-negating theology of some ancient gnostic schools. This culminates in the deeply absurd, childish, silly, uneducated, unsophisticated, of dubious authenticity etc etc Anurag Sagar. This culminates in millions of followers worldwide who believe this story as being literally true, rather than a useful or not so useful (hint, it’s the latter in the 21st century! 🙂 metaphor.
Annnyway, I’ve rambled on quite a bit there. I just found the discussion interesting and contains in one question all that is mistaken and misguided by RS and it’s followers regarding “mysticism”.
RS today is a religion, RS theology is dogma, Charan wasn’t a mystic, or at least not one of any significant depth or note, and that is according to his own testimony let alone the fact that there is literally no other reason to consider he was a mystic other than the fact he has that position within a well known worldly organisation, RS theology is not the summum bonum of “mystical theology”, but actually one of the most incoherent and unsophisticated of theologies, not all mysticism is “life negating” or an attempt to escape life and existence and indeed the vast majority of non-religious or non-organised and non-structured “mystic” (ie. non fiction based) experiences throughout history have been of the utter perfection of all creation, how “God” or One Consciousness pervades ALL that creation, of ecstasy, joy, awe, astonishment IN existence, and this results in spontaneous love, compassion, charity etc, which results in what could be considered a perpetual sense of social responsibility, which inevitably results in spontaneous acts of genuine, real “seva” towards humanity (not to be confused with pretend, mock “seva”, usually done to benefit pakhand Babas and their family dynasties), even if such acts result in “negative” consequences for the “mystic”. They don’t care, they live in a different reality with different values. Death and imprisonment, destitution and poverty do not worry or concern them like it does most people, some of whom would even betray everything and everyone that matters to them if they could make a few dollars……..
The real mystic must be considered a mad-person, there is no other way for the worldly person to understand their behaviour, their motives. The currency of a mystic is love and compassion, the currency of a worldly man is the dollar or rupee. The mystic will gladly go to jail or even the executioner for even the smallest and most insignificant expression of love and compassion. Perhaps for telling the kings and priestly class they are cruel, unjust and greedy hypocrites. They don’t care and they have no fear. The worldly man will gladly RISK going to jail or the executioner for money, but once they are caught they become frightened, because they realise their money will not go with them, either to the jail cell or to the grave. The mystic doesn’t have this problem, because their joy in their love and compassion only increases when they’re persecuted for it.
In today’s world where the greediest of people pretend to be the greatest of mystics, it is worth trying to remember not to confuse the two, otherwise we may end up with confused discussions like we have here, where non-mystics and religious leaders apparently speak for the mystics.

@ Spence,
See … that makes sense.
Being in your situation and with the same inner disposition I would act the same way.
The things you have stressed here are both your duties professional and private and you fulfill them both with heart.
There must be a reason that you have to live this life this way but it cannot be generalised.
Reading and writing here and talking to brothers and sisters you must have come across also kind of opposite, people who have never had any feeling that the master is with them even after 10, 20, or more years of being involved.
Yes there is joy in looking after people who are in need as longs as one is not overwhelmed by emotions of all concerned and one can handle what lays before one. This I too know by experience.

Hi Manjit
Thank you so much for the detailed exposition. It actually has helped me understand about the dualistic view. I can’t criticize those who were brought up to leave this horrible world. Maybe it really is horrible for them. I turn to Master all the time, so yes there are difficulties. But in retrospect, it is always a matter of my own limitations, and the solution, submitting to reality and that higher power within. And then the entire world is bliss. Instantly.
The higher regions are there, but they are also here. They are aspects of the same creation. Anyway, what you wrote helped me understand these two different ways of thinking about spirituality. I think you can see from my earlier comments that I was entirely confused and even a little horrified by what Um, Jen, Guru Inc and others had written. But your essay helps me to understand. Both views arise in what we call spirituality and both have their traditions.
Thank you Sensei

Hi Um
Thank you for your comments
You wrote
“Yes there is joy in looking after people who are in need as longs as one is not overwhelmed by emotions of all concerned and one can handle what lays before one. This I too know by experience.”
It is fair to say that I have always been in love with my son, and that, apart from meditation, to be with him is sheer joy.
Many parents feel that way about their kids. When we are together dressing up for cos play, our going to a comic con or watching anime, or just taking a walk, Master is right there. And the three of us are having a ball.
So unfortunately, I am overwhelmed by emotion all the time.
And when I see someone on the street in rags, I almost cannot function. My difficulty is in passing by. But I know that I must be there and cannot pass by unless I have acknowledged and helped. Because that is Master right there.
So, you may consider these things limitations. They most certainly are. But Master watches over me. I’m His. He is OK with my having this nature.
My son and I do not have to function proficiently in all things. We can just be in that bliss of Master’s presence, which is the personification of the principle of love that gives life to all of us each and every moment.

@Manjit
>> …… but I found this particular conversation weirdly and profoundly contains and explains almost everything that is wrong with Radhasoami Mat as a viable vehicle for spiritual growth, and what real “liberation” actually feels like as opposed to holding a complex of concepts and beliefs such as RS Mat.<< If one accepts an hypothesis in science one never knows beforehand what is correct or not. Faith is a kind of hypothesis. Although I came to understand many things over the years and an the good time I had with others, i never was able to verify the concepts of Sant Mat as far as the inner world is concerned. Coming to terms with that inability to prove for myself the truth I accept of sant mat, there are many ways o go. I came to stop asking questions about the teachings and started to investigate my own motivations i.r.t the teachings and teacher and also asking myself what makes people interested in what they call the divine, how religions were created and the role of inner experiences in it and not to forget the humanbody and the brain. In these endeavours i made some progress but it was by far not enough to close the book an i wonder if I would be succesfull before my last breath. So I cannot say you are right or wrong in what you wrote

@ Spence
>>So, you may consider these things limitations. They most certainly are. But Master watches over me. I’m His. He is OK with my having this nature. << I have no comments or judgements on your way of life and as I wrote different times in the last weeks, I suppose that I would act the same way as you do if I had them. It is your reality that the Master is watching over you. As I have written before i doesn't mean there is a master watching over you. Mine reality is that I never had such an experience, but that too doesn't mean there is not a master watching over me.

Hi Um
Sam always loved to draw. When he was about six, he was in the dining area and I in the kitchen. It was an open concept room and he could see me from the corner we had set up with a rug, cushions and his favorite books. He drew as I cooked. As I served the meal I asked him to show me what he was drawing. It was a cartoonist picture of me cooking, with Baba Ji standing behind me, a little higher up, turban and sarcastic smile on his face, smiling at Sam, his head tilted towards me as if too say, “Look at this guy, what a nerd.” There has been few times I got as much out of being the butt of a joke.
I asked Sam who it was and he said “It’s your Master.”
But of course Maharaji is my Master, whose picture I have in various rooms. I asked Sam where did he get the picture of Baba Ji?
“Dad, he was standing behind you.”
So He reminds me even when I forget. The message to me was clear. Whatever difficulties Sam has faced, and would face, Baba Ji is right here.
I didn’t see Him in the flesh miraculously that day.
Sam did. And it was business as usual for them.
If I had the choice. If it was going to be me or Sam alone who saw Baba Ji standing there, I would have chosen Sam. And it has turned out to be crucial in painful times that have followed, that Sam could, and has, turned to Baba Ji.
There were so many crushing events, from Sam’s own disabilities and health issues to his mom’s mental health issues, in and out of Behavioral health facilities to get her meds balanced.
There were no casual miracles. These were His gifts for our survival here. Baba Ji raised my son.
Once these events take place, one after the other, we are permanently, irrevocably changed. Treated with that level of compassion? We become compassionate towards everyone we can. Outside of our practice, our devotion, nothing is more important than compassion. We have needed it to survive. He gave it without being asked. So we are permanently changed.
But not everyone is meant for every role, or faces similar things where nothing can be done.
Some are meant to believe they are self – made. That they have solved every problem on their own. That they have power. That option was never there for me.and now the thought of that is distasteful and repulsive.
I could only help hold the rope in thanks while someone else pulled Sam and I out.

So, whilst immature wannabe mystics are plotting and scheming their “escape” from this “chaurasi” hell-hole, selfishly, or more correctly ego-centrically, paying no concern to the infinite other “souls” who weren’t smart enough to recognise and get initiated by the correct Baba Criminal, the real mystics acquiesce to reality….

Thank you for a thoughtful critique. I agree there’s a certain
escapism in that “plotting and scheming” by wannabe’s.
A sense of being the special chosen ones.
But I think a certain ego-centrism is essential. Our natural
instinct is to help or, and at the same time, to analyze, to
snappily judge, then to overreach and entangle to such an
extent with others’ plights that inevitably you both drown in
the “rescue”.
The escapism isn’t so much to run away and live in some
golden land in Sach Khand but to conserve our priceless
attention, to mindfully watch the 24×7 thought stream and
disentangle ourselves from its dominance. Then you are
not carried away by weaknesses or at least not to the
same devastating extent.
First do no harm. To yourself or others. Then you may be able
to really effectively help someone. Awareness sets you free.

@Manjit. >. There is just so much to unpack here….
Hi, . . only pack the Pack with HIS Love
U can’t unpack!
And speaking about mystics
Do you think you will have another chance, . . Meet a second mystic
who has the 5 packages for U Sir
and only behind and after the Crown You know
if HE wa the right one
Start to be happy today
You don’t need analysing. . . not a iota
777
I am in The 7th, . . . God in France

Hi Um
You write
“It is your reality that the Master is watching over you. As I have written before i doesn’t mean there is a master watching over you.”
Yes, actually it does mean there is a Master watching over me. I verify that often, including in meditation. But that is all in my own brain, no where else. Except that my brain is a part of this creation. It has its own model of the galaxy, stars, planets and beings. They are not imaginary. But they are places within the brain. One day neuroscience will learn more about that.
The brain projects symbols from both internal and external stimuli. A dream is the brain functioning symbolically from memory and impressions, emotions, at its lowest levels. Those creations aren’t always very accurate.
It doesn’t create those at random, however. These are made from source Materials which are very real.
These dreams reflect physical and psychological efforts to deal with impressions from the past and present.
In waking life the brain also creates images. It has a higher accuracy. Generally it is most accurate when we are aware of more of what is going on.
When you look around you and see corners and edges that look straight, you are looking at an invented image in your brain, not the world as it is, and not even as your eyes see it (which is actually upside down and curved). When you take a picture and are shocked that the picture did not capture the full range of details, of light and dark, which you see, you are looking at the scene rebuilt moment by moment by your brain. It color corrects every picture it takes and they all appear to you as perfectly exposed. They aren’t. The brain adjusts what you see.
My Master is the one my brain projects. Just as my brain projects an image of me and everyone I know. Just as all the people in your life are refreshed and recreated in your own brain.
The brain uses information, and we don’t fully understand where it all comes from and how it constructs the symbolic world we live in. Because, actually, we live in that brain, not in this physical world.
My beloved Master may have little to do with the physical Master, or He may be the real being behind both. The physical Master may just be His puppet. But it hardly matters. My Master is the one I must answer to, and who has showered compassion all along.
His presence is much more constant than even my own.

When you serve others you aren’t doing it for God, you’re doing it to God. Every time GSD answers a questioner he is actually speaking to God—to the the God within that person so it’s important to be very careful in those kinds of situations.
God is love and love is God. If you can’t feel love then all of your inner wandering dare of no use. Besides astral travel is child’s play. Like GSD said, “What’s so difficult about sitting for 2.5 hours a day. The answer is “nothing”. What’s difficult is trying to treat each person you meet, each person in front of you with love, compassion and understanding. That’s what really matters. Travel the the moon and back or to Heaven and back… so what if it doesn’t make you a more loving person. Quite honestly, if it doesn’t make you kinder and more loving then you definitely haven’t been to heaven or anywhere worth traveling to.
And I say this knowing that it’s a big challenge for me… I’m trying not to get so impatient and to be less selfish and do more for those around me. Little by little. Every step counts. Every smile, every word of encouragement, every gift is a gift directly to God.
Heaven and back, heaven and back, heaven and back… it’s like cleaning your house and then messing it up again over and over. I’ve never understood.

@ Spence
I don’t know if what you described has always been there for you and with you. Whether it was the outcome of effort or just a gift as is usual with mystics.
Edgard Tolle, writes books for people about his situation and what they can do to get into the same but my problem with his writings and other mystics is that he himself never walked that path that he advises his readers … as it was a gift.
In that writing is little compassion for the empty handed. It is like discussing all the different delicious dishes of an diner with an pauper telling him he can enjoy the same if he only would work harder, had more love, more compassion etc. …. or …. within the religious context…. why are you not more receptive, have more faith, blieve is a gift etc etc.
Thank you for sharing these private insights … if it would make sense, I would add … and I do hope for you that it will stay with you untill the very last moment

Hi Um
Yet it is as you say. I was pulled through the regions at a very young age, and regularly. I found high school very challenging, and when I came home after school I would lie down and listen to the beautiful shabd for an hour or two, and then I could carry on.
I don’t consider it a blessing. It is just a condition. Maybe a curse. It certainly kept me from too much excess. There are so many explanations, but they are all culture bound. Given my limitations, it has proven necessary for survival. It could just be something in the gene pool of humanity as a survival function for some who have other limitations.

@ Spence
What I don’t undertand is that you write here …. having these experiences.

Manjit’s recent post provides some great food for thought, particularly for those starting to question their relationship with RSSB.
I believe his version of events in the evolution of Sant Mat is as likely as any and an important alternative analysis for folk who traditionally followed (like many of us) the standard RSSB story.
That Sant Mat evolved out of Kashmir Shaivism is also plausible given the emphasis the latter has on the ‘vibrational nature’ of awareness/consciousness. Such a perspective could also offer argument that Sant Mat in it’s earlier form had a non-dual focus, and only in more recent time has this ‘faith’ taken on what Manjit calls a ‘demiurge infused, world-denying, escape-based’ focus.
I guess a few others who have studied the history of Sant Mat such as David Lane could support or refute Manjit’s claims, be interesting to see, though such debate has probably been thrashed out elsewhere and even here in the past. I can’t recall it however, and it could prove helpful to folk who are trying to reassess how and where they now stand.
I had a bit of a reaction to Manjit’s comments in regard to Charan: his parroting of the teachings and weather or not he was a real mystic. From my memory of previous posts, Manjit is not initiated by Charan and did not meet him? All I can say is that it was pretty good hanging out with him. Pretty cool as masters go imo.
Which brings me to something ‘um’ said a while back in regard to reasons why we (generally speaking) got initiated, what we understand by ‘master’ and why we chose RSSB and not other so-called paths. At the time (1981), I came to the conclusion that the Sant Mat path as per RSSB had the highest so-called ‘reach’ – this was after an intense search. What then clinched it for me was another so-called guru’s answer to a question I’d asked, he replied ‘there are 7 Perfect Masters in the world, Charan Singh is one of them’.
So it’s interesting to observe and assess where we now find ourselves. One wonders about these paradoxes that still rankle so-called former followers as well as those whose adherence to dogma is being shaken-up:
That a ‘perfect master’ appointed a successor who certainly seems to be behaving not how a new ‘perfect master’ is supposed to behave.
That this master lives in luxury while promulgating teachings based around living a life of low-impact simplicity and honesty
That this guru is involved in a large-scale complex interplay of financial dealings that many consider to involve fraud.
That this guru continues to publish a swag of old teachings/concepts based around such things as spiritual hierarchies, reincarnation, negative/positive powers and the soul’s separation. Yet in certain circumstances he says there is only Oneness and that the ‘soul is the truth’.
This stuff if looked at critically has to help folk wake-up and better utilise both heart and head in trying to get some balance and find out the truth of things. I think approaches such as Kashmir Shaivism as pointed out by Manjit are both more integrated and inclusive in spite of being held within their own 1000+ yr old tradition. I think Sonia’s recent points about the need for more of the feminine is relevant.
It would be good if ‘essay’s’ such as this latest from Manjit could make their way to places like the RSSB website, thus indicating they are open to informed critical comment. After all didn’t Charan Singh often say critics are our best friends? (or something to this affect).

Hi Um
You ask
“What I don’t undertand is that you write here …. having these experiences.”
What was all that I wrote about compassion? Did it just fly by overhead?
Think about it.
I can chew gum and walk at the same time. Yay for me.
Besides, don’t you think Santa Clause must love toys. He must be nearly obsessed with children and toys. Why? What need does he have for more toys?
Let me put this another way. You who have had, by your claim, no experiences at all, why then are you here? Why do you spend two minutes thinking about RSSB, pro or con?
Actually that’s a more interesting subject to me. What are your thoughts?

@ Spence,
Whatever I had to say I did, realising now that if I had understood earlier that you had these inner experiences more or less as an daily compagnion, I would never have reacted to anything you wrote.
What you wrote in terms of going out into the world to do good, is no part of the teachings of Sant Mat, but those who have reach the end of these teachings cannot but act as you do.
You have ended up being assimilated in your game of sant mat … it makes no sense puting before you what goes on in my mind. Don’t mistake what I write here!!
His succesor, starting out his mission, would say that people should stand shoulder by shoulder.
These types of expressions are transportable to any situation and human activity in order to be true. So only if people share the same object, same point of view, the can discuss and exchange thoughts. If that shared object or focus is not there, they are forced to “see” one another in the face with all consequences.
You and I don’t share the same world.
And if it helps what sense would make for Carlos Castaneda to advise normal people to act in ways that are born from and related to the second attention.
Don’t forget that English is not my mother tongue

@ Tim Rimmer
Wait a moment…..
>>After all didn’t Charan Singh often say critics are our best friends? (or something to this affect).<< Yessss … he said so but to whom and why?? He said that to people who were critisized …. and not as an justification for critisizing others and especially not people that are seen as spiritual teachers he warned against that in terms of exchange of karma

um asks Spence: “What I don’t understand is that you write here …. having these experiences.”
I find it very strange that people avoid one of the most important spiritual rules which is about talking about one’s own inner spiritual experiences. Its like giving away one’s most precious gift.
Inner experiences: Spiritual Gems:
Para 155: (3) Take care not to disclose to anyone whatever you may see within yourself. The reason is that, in the first place, telling it to other people produces vanity in us; secondly, it is absurd to disclose such secrets to those who cannot value them.
Para 168: It is not advisable to speak of one’s internal experiences to anyone except the Master, and it is positively harmful to speak of them to those who are less developed spiritually than oneself. In revealing secrets there is the risk of the element of pride coming in, which hinders progress. Strength lies in keeping the secret locked, not in giving it out. Others may benefit, but he who is giving out is the loser.
What occurs to me is that an ex-satsangi talking about inner experiences could be very much under the negative power, Kal’s influence. Also, its very much about the Ego.

Well, we’ll… just getting caught up…
@Spence
You have a heart of gold. 🙂
@Majnit
Obviously there’s a lot about your essay I could comment on, but I’ll just say this part is really cool; “Love and compassion it’s natural fruit, as an expression of that understanding of the unity of all things.“
@Tim
Regarding, “That this guru continues to publish a swag of old teachings/concepts based around such things as spiritual hierarchies, reincarnation, negative/positive powers and the soul’s separation. Yet in certain circumstances he says there is only Oneness and that the ‘soul is the truth’.”
Yessssss!!! I agree completely with “there is only Oneness and that the ‘soul is the truth’.” But the old teachings are unenlightened.
@Gurus Inc
Leave it to India to create a caste system in Heaven. Must be cultural—the concept of past life karma is great for justifying one’s sense of superiority. And the flip side—blaming everything on your “karma” (self pity and powerlessness) Total BS. What’s even more BS is the idea that we need a “perfect master” or that such a thing even exists. We don’t need a Master. We only need God. And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls. So bizarre… so truly bizarre. The idea that a loving God appointed a “Kal” type entity to do his dirty work is absurd.

We don’t need a Master. We only need God. And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls.
Posted by: Sonia | December 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM
We are sure God conveyed this to you.

Hi Jen
You asked
“I find it very strange that people avoid one of the most important spiritual rules which is about talking about one’s own inner spiritual experiences. Its like giving away one’s most precious gift.”
Spiritual rules?
If sharing my experiences reduces them to biochemistry, physiological experience, and makes them a normal genetic variation among some human beings, that’s a good thing.
The only danger of losing anything is putting up with the nasties from folks who just can’t accept me for who I am. So then it’s all good because it becomes a discussion about compassion.
That’s the whole discussion. What does experience mean if it doesn’t raise a person’s compassion for their brothers and sisters?
I suspect that any experience that gives you a different, broader perspective, travel in this physical world to different places, meeting different peoples and cultures in this physical world, not just within, accomplishes much the same broadening, enlightening, accepting and helping others effect.

One more point, Jen
You wrote
“What occurs to me is that an ex-satsangi talking about inner experiences…”
You are mistaken. I’m a Satsangi. Just like Brian Ji and others.
We are all Satsangis. Sat… Truth… Wherever the path leads.
My Master is still every bit my Master. Maharaji and Baba Ji are part of the cellular structure, the very fabric of my everyday life.
Did that not come through in all my comments?

We don’t need a Master. We only need God. And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls.
Posted by: Sonia | December 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM
Given that it only works by Love
like here in the physical
me:
WHO. would U love, . . . ever seen God. ?
Second : We, . . . or even thousand Galaxies would vaporise
by coming to near of HER
Third:
If U did it on your own : at arrival You would think : I DID IT
which is an ego explosion, throwing U out immediately
So, Try to love this strange phenomenon
follow th husband
HE can only be loved through somebody already there
I believe U have the Package, . . pls Use it
777
BTW. somebody wrote Seth Shiv Dayal said
A few Sants go higher than the 5th region
Haha
It is no competition
Each Saint goes where His Heartt is and so go we!

And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod
How do U know
After all, these strange trillions of creations in zillions of ‘times’
perhaps HE wants something else now. Sonia.
I would!
777

@ 777.
Nice words. Hope you are well?

We are sure God conveyed this to you.
Posted by: Gurus Inc | December 10, 2019 at 06:38 AM
No, it was Gurinder who told me. He said there isn’t a Kal—it’s just a concept.

With gurus like Gurinder who needs enemies.
I know I said I didn’t have anymore hard feelings but I think they all just came back to me now.

Sonia wrote:
to punish souls. So bizarre… so truly bizarre. The idea that a loving God appointed a “Kal” type entity to do his dirty work is absurd.
If you translate “kal” by
supercomputer One Bi Qubits / book-keeper
why is that so strange?
Also YOU minus ego . . are the God who did all this “stupidness”
So you know where to go with complaints . . inside Sister
But you don’t believe that Life is Fair ? anymore
Gurinder is the last chance. Sister, . . almost
The really last one will be a girl in Nepal but I described this already here
777

Spence, the quotes I used in my previous comment were taken from the book “Spiritual Gems”, the letters written by Huzur Maharaj Baba Sawan Singh Ji (the Great Master) in response to the questions and queries of his American and European disciples and seekers.
Your reply: “Spiritual rules? If sharing my experiences reduces them to biochemistry, physiological experience, and makes them a normal genetic variation among some human beings, that’s a good thing.”
You say: “My Master is still every bit my Master. Maharaji and Baba Ji are part of the cellular structure, the very fabric of my everyday life.
Did that not come through in all my comments?”
Now I wonder more than ever if you have ever been a RSSB satsangi because not talking about our inner spiritual experiences is one of the major rules in Sant Mat and even if you are an ex-satsangi you don’t even seem to have that understanding.

777 what do you mean by
Gurinder is the last chance. Sister, . . almost
The really last one will be a girl in Nepal but I described this already here
Can you explain further?

And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls.

Makes sense. The “wacky demigod” is our own mind. What more
perfect form of torture is needed…
“We have met the enemy and he is us.” –W. Kelly

Hi Jen
The world would never know about internal experiences if that advice were universal. The advice of the Masters is good advice, but it’s not a vow. And there is a reason why it’s not a vow.
It is only good advice for those who are trying to achieve something, because there is ego.
And good advice to help protect those who haven’t achieved anything, to help them avoid becoming jealous.
But there is nothing to be jealous of. It’s not an accomplishment. So there is no basis for ego. The teachings that deify these experiences are wrong. No one earns them. No one creates them. No one builds them.
They are just there in some of us, like brown hair and good vision. Or being born in Montana instead of Germany. Luck of the draw. Or course, depending on how you view it. But in all instances, be happy with what God gave you. That’s always a good lesson we learn over and over again
To me spiritual progress is reflected in how high your point of view is, your capacity for universal love and brotherhood. Then you would realize there is nothing, zero, zip, different between you and I. We are the same.
Human genes are 99% identical to African apes and Gorillas. Our differences are paper thin.
But Jen, you can do something about compassion. It’s fully in your hands.

the quotes I used in my previous comment were taken from the book “Spiritual Gems”, the letters written by Huzur Maharaj Baba Sawan Singh Ji (the Great Master) in response to the questions and queries of his American and European disciples and seekers.

I think G. Master’s answers (and other mystics’ as well) are tailored to
the individual questioner for their benefit and level of advancement
on the path. There are many anecdotes of contradictory responses to
the seemingly same question for instance.
There may even be exceptions to strict rules if conveyed by the inner
Master. So masters and advanced disciples may prescribe or even act
in anomalous ways at times. Of course, they bear full responsibility for
them too.
This is my sense after listening to online satsangs, particularly those of
Ishwar Puri.

We are sure God conveyed this to you.
Posted by: Gurus Inc | December 10, 2019 at 06:38 AM
No, it was Gurinder who told me. He said there isn’t a Kal—it’s just a concept.
Posted by: Sonia | December 10, 2019 at 04:50 PM
But then by your own accord GSD isn’t even a Godman/Perfect Master. GSD —-> GOD 🤔🤔🤔. Come on how can you be so naive to believe a supposed fraudster (again as some think in here including yourself)???? LOL!!!

Now I wonder more than ever if you have ever been a RSSB satsangi because not talking about our inner spiritual experiences is one of the major rules in Sant Mat and even if you are an ex-satsangi you don’t even seem to have that understanding.
Posted by: Jen | December 10, 2019 at 07:24 PM
Jen,
Just give it a skip. His Inner experience fakery has been established a while ago.

And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls.
Makes sense. The “wacky demigod” is our own mind. What more
perfect form of torture is needed…
Posted by: Dungeness | December 10, 2019 at 08:28 PM
Right.
And mind is Kal’s representative in each of us.
God doesn’t punish or judge. Given the cosmic framework, he infact provides the escape key. Not his problem most don’t use it.
Does Kal punish or simply adminster if he is just the bookkeeper as @777 said.

This goody 2-shoes Spence seems to have completely lost the plot. He seems to only abide by a guru or universe that abides by his own individual moral sense. He picks and chooses quotes out of place from teachers, people and court cases that support his own view.
Pretending to not have a huge ego is not the same as not having a huge ego. If the guru whacked some old lady in a wheelchair – maybe he could see something that the ‘wise’ Spence could not – in fact, my suspicion is that Spence is not v wise at all – so it’s hardly surprising he is so taken aback by the gurus action. Maybe she could actually run the 100m faster than Spence.
I also question just how goody 2-shoes anyone actually is, who is so hellbent on crucifying. What if the guru is innocent of all wrong-doings? Yep big trouble coming for this foolish man.
@arjuna – yep I see the big baby 👶 is maybe coming around a bit. Another scone?

@Dungeoness,
You wrote:
“I think G. Master’s answers (and other mystics’ as well) are tailored to
the individual questioner for their benefit and level of advancement
on the path. There are many anecdotes of contradictory responses to
the seemingly same question for instance.”
I think the answers are tailored but not necessarily for the benefit of the questioner.

Gurus Inc,
Why can’t you and Gurinder run off together with the money and just disappear? The day Gurinder is no longer RSSB Master will be the happiest day of my life… I certainly wouldn’t bother attending his funeral.

Gurus Inc,
Gurinder is what 68? That’s like 98 in guru years. Surely it’s time for him to move on. Do India and the world a favor.
No love lost.

The justice system ( covering eons ) is a level above our
7 Chakras Matrix.
The register is called “Akashic Records”
The beginning of correct analogue thinking is in the new QUBIT
a trillion ^x system
but the consequences are much higher
Hence the ‘primitive’ but TRUE Region system in RSSB
It can be approached by ‘Intuition’ what we all have.
When a Complete Master receives this intuitions , He does
not make the usual mistakes analysing
like psychic people do
( like they see the dead body in relation with a mill
after all police said it was a caffee milling grinder > a mill )
So, a Master is not all knowing but knows on a need to know
Then He sees the complete picture/history of the Soul before Him
Experienced satsangis have that also but don’t use it unless ordered
Quantum mechanics make these correlations so much more clear
The lovely aqahabad sound makes everything possible
but we need only the intense LOVE. for that
After all The Shabad we hear is our so long neglected Soul
This Path is one of the best available in Creation
Be happy you came in contact with it
Without it your existence might be long , long, long
even many big bangs
I explained earlier in “This is how it works”
that God is just a Love accumulator for ever
and YOU Reader are HER
777
Please know when the SatGuru has to do with the High Court
his decisions are based on the akashic records
from before this Big Bang

Gurus Inc,
Why can’t you and Gurinder run off together with the money and just disappear? The day Gurinder is no longer RSSB Master will be the happiest day of my life… I certainly wouldn’t bother attending his funeral.
Posted by: Sonia | December 11, 2019 at 04:47 AM
Gurus Inc …to hot too handle.
And yes whenever that day comes, you won’t be missed for sure.
God is love ya….. Wonder who fills individuals with so much hate!!!!!

Gurus Inc,
Gurinder is what 68? That’s like 98 in guru years. Surely it’s time for him to move on. Do India and the world a favor.
No love lost.
Posted by: Sonia | December 11, 2019 at 04:58 AM
GSD is the master of his own death and he
grants no favours unfortunately.

Gurus Inc,
The day Gurinder is no longer RSSB Master will be the happiest day of my life… I certainly wouldn’t bother attending his funeral.
Posted by: Sonia | December 11, 2019 at 04:47 AM
Gurinder is what 68? That’s like 98 in guru years. Surely it’s time for him to move on. Do India and the world a favor.
Posted by: Sonia | December 11, 2019 at 04:58 AM
FROM THE ARCHIVES –
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2018/09/my-death-is-prematurely-celebrated

I believe U have the Package, . . pls Use it
777
BTW. somebody wrote Seth Shiv Dayal said
A few Sants go higher than the 5th region
Haha
It is no competition
Each Saint goes where His Heartt is and so go we!
Posted by: 💦 | December 10, 2019 at 01:02 PM
The best would be the package is taken away. But alas that’s just wishful thinking. So the next best it’s to be – the package remains unused.
Punishment certainly will be the order of the day. No escape from the consequences of certain utterances.
Also looking for Soamiji’s utterance about only certain saints going beyond 5th region.

I think the answers are tailored but not necessarily for the benefit of the questioner.

@Suitsya
Oh thanks, that sews it up.

Shame poor Sonia the love / hate game has bitten her bad
Like it’s done all the other exers that just love to hate the one who gave them a little (or a lot of) love to begin with.

Gurus Inc,
What you and your baba fail to understand is that you can’t buy love. GSD acts like the kind of guy who insults and beats his wife but thinks it’s ok as long as he buys her things. That’s a metaphor for how he treats the Sangat.
It’s not OK. Everyone who has any shred of sanity left in their mind would agree that it’s better to be loved and respected by a “poor” husband that beaten and ridiculed by a rich one.
And the good husband doesn’t have to be poor. He just has to care more about how he treats people than how much he owns.

Also looking for Soamiji’s utterance about only certain saints going beyond 5th region.
me: Why ? 🤔
Your question makes me remember the christian standpoint
of sitting at the right side or at left of God
in Heaven
Isn’t that primitive
777

Wow Sonia’s negativity is harrowing. We can only wish learn to be more human. Love thy neighbor….

Also looking for Soamiji’s utterance about only certain saints going beyond 5th region.
me: Why ? 🤔
Your question makes me remember the christian standpoint
of sitting at the right side or at left of God
in Heaven
Isn’t that primitive
777
Posted by: 🤔 | December 11, 2019 at 09:09 AM
@777 you question why are we interested. This simply to establish another fakery that Spence utters.
Ofcourse knowing it’s not just primitive but profoundly stupid. But then at times it’s necessary.

Anon,
Yes, harrowing indeed. But you aren’t me. Lucky for you. ALL of my neighbors and my worst “enemies” have treated me 100% better than GSD. So, I’m not apologizing.

Punishment certainly will be the order of the day. No escape from the consequences of certain utterances.
Also looking for Soamiji’s utterance about only certain saints going beyond 5th region.
Posted by: Gurus Inc | December 11, 2019 at 06:26 AM
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
😘

Good luck getting that “punishment” approved.

@Dungeness,
It’s hard to get mad at you because you’re so witty. 🙃

Gurus Inc,
And before you go getting your feelings all hurt, take a good look in the mirror.

Sonia yes I’m extremely thankful I’m not. Neighbor means everyone not just those who treat you the way you want. And I know your story fully remember. Anyways love and blessings to you.

It’s amazing how far a simple apology goes rather than a demand to be worshipped/adored/revered/feared.
There is no longer any fear left in my life. Just a dazed and confused bewilderment that one could so carelessly overlook everything (there were so many, many, many things) he’s done to hurt another without even a tinge of remorse. So, don’t be terribly surprised when I say I’m not sorry. The only thing I’m sorry about is being so ignorant as to believe it was a “path of love”. It has been proven otherwise. I don’t wish anyone to suffer as I did for the 14 years that I followed that path. But I will be happy when the day comes where it never crosses my mind. And that day could happen today. Just “poof” no memory.

Sonia you only need to apologize to yourself no one else. Good luck with that.

“Why can’t you and Gurinder run off together with the money and just disappear? The day Gurinder is no longer RSSB Master will be the happiest day of my life… I certainly wouldn’t bother attending his funeral.” Posted by: Sonia
Sonia, the funniest side to your comments is that you haven’t yet realised how committed you are to Gurinder. I know you are just having fun but it still seems like you have a very strong attachment to him albeit a very negative one. Obviously he has hurt your feelings (ego) but hatred for someone is also a strong commitment just as much as love. It can become an obsession.

Gurus Inc,
And before you go getting your feelings all hurt, take a good look in the mirror.
Posted by: Sonia | December 11, 2019 at 10:41 AM
We took a good hard look in the mirror. And guess what even the mirror confirmed we are the wisest of them all.
Thanks for the advice. 😄😄😄

Jen,
You are correct.

Jen interesting you say that. I believe all commenters on this site have some obsession with the Master. Some positive some negative but obsessed nonetheless. Even with all the comments on the financial scandal notice no one cares much about the Singh brothers all the focus is on the Master. Perhaps it’s time to change the name of this blog. 😉

We took a good hard look in the mirror. And guess what even the mirror confirmed we are the wisest of them all.
Thanks for the advice. 😄😄😄
Posted by: Gurus Inc | December 11, 2019 at 12:27 PM
I’m sure your mirror knows better than to argue with you.
—Snow White

Anon you say: “Jen interesting you say that. I believe all commenters on this site have some obsession with the Master”.
Your comment has made me think about why I enjoy reading Church of the Churchless every day. It is a habit and also its news about Gurinder and the Dera, so I am still quite attached to Sant Mat in so many ways. Still following the vegetarian diet, no alcohol/drugs, moral life, etc. So, why do I think of myself as an ex-satsangi?
I’m not very good at meditating but I think of myself as living in awareness as much as possible. I do think that there is probably a lot of power in Simran and the Shabd because there are so many satsangis following Sant Mat now. Well, you’ve given me food for thought!

Hi Gurus Inc
You wrote
“Also looking for Soamiji’s utterance about only certain saints going beyond 5th region.”
It’s right up front in the first chapter of Swami Ji’s teachings, paragraph 3.
Sar Bachan prose, page 26, book 1 “The Teachings of Radha Soami, translated from the Hindi by Sardar Seva Singh”.
“3. All the Teachers, Sages, Incarnations (Avatars) or Prophets from the past, in every religion, started towards the real abode within themselves by means of spiritual practices, but all of them did not reach the final stage. A good many of them stopped at the first stage, and a few Sadhs and devotees reached the third stage. Saints alone reached the fifth stage, Sat Nam, and only a few of them reached the eighth stage., Radha Soami Dham. ”
Not all Saints reach the highest stage, only a few of them.
This is flat out false. All of them either either reached the Lord or are on their way. Your love is doing your part. He does the rest.

Sonia Sonia it’s OK don’t worry be happy
We all know once bitten twice shy
Nobody forced anyone to take that awful bite of the apple, but bite we did.
Like the deep sea marlin that took the deep sea fisherman’s bait, once bitten the hook sits firmly in its nose between his eyes. He can dive to the bottom of the ocean or soar above the waves, he can drag the fisherman’s boat out into the ocean but the fisherman lets him run for fear of breaking the line. All along the hook sits firmly in his nose.
Once tired out the marlin realizes that how much he tried to free his nose from the hook its stuck, and to alleviate the tugging pain that throbs between his eyes, it’s better relief to swim towards the boat than away from it. Achtung baby.
As we say in the classics, moenie worry nie, alles sal regkom.

Jen you say
So, why do I think of myself as an ex-satsangi?
That’s just a name isn’t it? None of us are satsangis. We are seekers and some are not even that.
Once a Satsangi in a true sense you can never be an ex. So all this “branding” is trivial.

Whodunit,
Afrikaans? 🙂 You reminded me of the strangest thing that happened to me my first trip to the Dera (there were many strange things but this was the strangest). I went for a walk and stopped in front of the old Satsangar. I stood there for the longest time because there was the gentlest breeze blowing towards me. Then after some time a man came out of the building and offered me an apple. I wanted to ask him somethings but he didn’t say a word and just walked off. I couldn’t make this up if I tried…
Then I took the apple back to my room and remembering the Grim Brothers’ comment Gurinder during the evening meeting the day before, I decided not to eat it. My Satsangi friends said they were sure nothing was wrong with it but I kept it on my nightstand and didn’t eat it.
Never a stranger place…
I don’t know if you’ve seen the TV series ‘Once’ (Once upon a Time) but the Dera makes the little town in ‘Once’ seem normal.

Once…
https://youtu.be/29217uc7fOo

Hi Whodonit
“he can drag the fisherman’s boat out into the ocean but the fisherman lets him run for fear of breaking the line.”
Not quite. There is no fear from the fisherman. He is enjoying himself. The fisherman fears nothing.
The Marlin carries the fear, and in a dream she is flying away, always away from the boat that is death, but all a dream within herself, and always back to herself.
The beautiful ocean, the clear blue sky, the moon and the stars at night she sees, leaping up, emerging momentarily from the deep sleep of the sea.
She runs away on fear from what is actually herself.
She leaps to join a distant sky she can never touch, but which is completely within herself. She is the sky, but does not know it yet. Even the fisherman is just a character in the Marlin’s dream. And she is also the boat and the fisherman, her own inevitable death from this dream. She fears the death of the dream most of all, but little understands her own fear.
Wake up, wake up beloved.

She fears the death of the dream most of all, but little understands her own fear.
Wake up, wake up beloved.

A fish story. The most moving one of all.

I’m sure your mirror knows better than to argue with you.
—Snow White
Posted by: Sonia | December 11, 2019 at 03:16 PM
The only thing thing the mirror knows is it reflects human beings in all its reality. Its reflection is neither distorted or twisted. It has no personal likes or dislikes, no preconceptions, no biases and gives an exact image of what comes before it. It is not affected by any feelings of love or hatred.
What would the mirror tell you Sonya?

It’s an allegory story Spence
Once told to me by a good friend from Hawaii.
It’s simply allegorical and pretty apt.
Nothing to do with fear by the fisherman. The fisherman is in control. This is the archetype story of how the deep sea fisherman catches his fish.
The fisherman rows his little boat out in the ocean and drops his line lowering the bait in the water and sits and waits.
Eventually the marlin comes along and takes the bait.
Nobody forced the marlin to take it but take it he did. Either out of curiosity or out of hunger, nevertheless the bait was taken and the marlin was hooked, embedded firmly in his nose between his eyes.
The marlin thrashes and dives, soars and switches swimming furiously dragging the fisherman and his boat out into the deep ocean.
The fisherman lets him run for days knowing that if he reels him in too early he could have too much strain on the line the line could snap under tension.
He let’s the marlin run and thrash until it’s tired and the pain in his nose becomes unbearable.
Eventually the marlins resistance wanes and worn-out he rather chooses to swim toward the boat and accept his fate to alleviate the nagging throb of the painful tugging by the hook buried deep in his nose.

Hi Whodunit
You write
“It’s an allegory story Spence
Once told to me by a good friend from Hawaii.”
Yes, it’s The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway.
“He is a great fish and I must convince him, he thought. I must never let him learn his strength nor what he could do if he made his run. If I were him I would put in everything now and go until something broke. But, thank God, they are not as intelligent as we who kill them; although they are more noble and more able. ”
But I prefer my own allegory.

My heart goes to the fish, and not the fisherman who harpoons them.

The lost son in the bible
The lost son found among the robbers
The worm and the golden apple
This marlin story
the sheep and shepherd
Interesting to ponder over the different story lines and the interplay of characters in each of the stories.
It seems that only in the lost son story of the bible the characters are on the same level, does the son goes home on his own accord and rejoyces his father in seeing him again.
In the other stories, the characters are on a different level and in one way or another forced to follow.
Grandmother, you told me as a kid not to sell my soul to the devil …… I never understood, it created unknown fear …what is a soul and what a devil and what selling.
Better not to accept or look for apples offered by strangers so you become awate of things you shouldn’t

Whodunit writes,……” Eventually the marlins resistance wanes and worn-out he rather chooses to swim toward the boat and accept his fate to alleviate the nagging throb of the painful tugging by the hook buried deep in his nose.”
Me: Actually , I love your allegory of how we Charan Initiates got hooked, and are still hooked to his fish line, that he uses his “ Bulldozer Chain” for fishing line! Regardless of what Bait was used on the Bulldozer Fishing Line, we Charan Initiates are still here, floundering around, trying to get the Hook out of our Third Eye, and delete his Clone he projected there at our individual Initiations, but no matter how Exer some of might sound, we might as well just quit trying to escape, because that Fishing Line Chain is not going to release us until Charan Singh personally unhooks us when he releases us to Sach Khand!
For me, the Bait he used to snag me, was Julian Johnson’s “ Path of The Master” Book. Once snagged, and the Hook of Shabd was paralyzing my Third Eye, I had no other choice except to continue to “ Die While Living” another day.
Jim S.

But the poor unsuspecting marlin. All it wanted was a little grub, now the poor buggers got a gdam hook in the nose.

Jim and a few others in here,
I do hope you realise it’s your Master, Hazur Charan Singh’s birthday today.

The Old Man and the Sea. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hemingway is rolling in his grave.

Yip Huzur Malik Maharaj Charan Singh Ji’s birthday today born December 12th 1916.
https://pin.it/wytrlg3afoas5u
Jim S 🙏
Yippee bulldozer do as bulldozer does, marlin do as it can (to get free).
It simply is as it is,
Which marlin reckons they had anything to do with the hook or the fishing line or the fisherman’s bait ?

Hi Um:
You wrote:
“It seems that only in the lost son story of the bible the characters are on the same level, does the son goes home on his own accord and rejoices his father in seeing him again.”
There are two stories of return and reunion in the New Testament Bible. One is direct, the other implied: The Prodigal Son, and the hidden treasure:
The Hidden Treasure
“Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.”
Matthew 13:44
Why did the man hide the treasure in the field? Was that honest? Should he have told the owner of the field? Was it fair to the owner to keep him or her ignorant of the treasure?
The man who found the treasure and hid it again appears to have bought the field at a price agreed to by the owner under the pretense that the field contained no treasure. By giving this illustration as a positive example, is Jesus promoting questionable behavior?
Why did the man choose to deceive the owner? Perhaps the man knew that even by selling all he had, he would not be able to afford the true price of the treasure. No one can. Why did he have to have it? As for the owner, who was he? Perhaps the owner was not deceived at all.
Consider what may have been lost through the oral tradition in this rendition of Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son.
Perhaps the original went a little something like this:
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a man’s own fields.
The man had been away for so long he didn’t recognize his own home.
Something inside the man brought him to this field and to the family treasure, his birthright, which the man, as a boy, had helped His father bury long ago.
As soon as he uncovered the treasure he knew it was his, but did not understand why. So he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field from his father, whom he also didn’t recognize.
His father was so happy to see his son’s return that he played along and sold him the field for trinkets. His father knew that his son was gradually remembering.
One day his son realized that the field, the treasure and the father were all his to begin with.
The son ran through the fields up to the house he hadn’t seen in years. Now everything was clear, everything familiar. He ran into that house, his home, and embraced his father. All that mattered to his father was that day of reunion.
This is what the kingdom of heaven is like.
Jesus’ parable also has another, even simpler allegorical explanation. The man found this treasure in the field within himself. He gladly paid his debts to those around him, finished his duties, left his old life, and made his home that field, and the treasure the center of his new life.

The only thing thing the mirror knows is it reflects human beings in all its reality. Its reflection is neither distorted or twisted. It has no personal likes or dislikes, no preconceptions, no biases and gives an exact image of what comes before it. It is not affected by any feelings of love or hatred.
What would the mirror tell you Sonya?
Posted by: A Wise 🦉 | December 11, 2019 at 11:35 PM
Love yourself

@ sonia
But you do love yourself . You sound like you need to tackle your own issues here on earth rather than having so much venom towards GSD.
You do seem full of yourself in many ways like spence. Sometimes just let things be. I have seen stuff in my life in the forces that would help you stop feeling so angry. Because you realise that sometimes you have to let things be.

A wise 🦉, A Smart One, Gurus Inc, and so on…
At least I use my real name and I don’t pretend to be special. If it’s a sin—I e commuted it (with a few exceptions) and honestly, I don’t care. You can judge me all you want. I assure you you are more pious than me. But pious has never been on my checklist. Obnoxious, sure… not wise, or smart or guru. Life’s too short to be boring.
On another trivial note, I’m grocery shopping for my dad. I haven’t been grocery shopping in years. This is hell. I don’t cook either… perhaps my mirror would tell me I’m undomesticated. 😂

Hi Arjuna:
You wrote:
“You do seem full of yourself in many ways like spence. Sometimes just let things be. I have seen stuff in my life in the forces that would help you stop feeling so angry. Because you realise that sometimes you have to let things be.”
So long as you must stand upon the criticism of any other person, the foundation is flawed. And no, obviously, you haven’t just let go, and let be. You said earlier that you had changed your mind about Gurinder. But does that mean you do not accept Sonia’s right to her own perspective?
Do you presume to know better than her?
Then you accuse me of the same criticism?
Leave me out of your comments, if you can. And if you can’t, then that’s telling you something.
Remember, I’m only words on an electronic page. If those words stir feeling in you, it is not worth making personal attacks on any person. But it may be a good opportunity to question your own reaction.
I say that you were right to criticize Gurinder. And I say you are right to honor him also.
Both are true, and no one can say, at this level, which is superior or inferior.
Because what you honor may have been, or may still be, superstitions that even the Saint wants you to jettison.
A saint may drag you, but Arjuna, you are still being dragged, as is Um, Guru Inc, Anon and others.
And Brian Ji is in the bulldozer driver seat, by Maharaji and Gurinder’s appointment.
And he is dragging us all, myself included, through our layers of illusion. By Appointment of Radha Soami!

@Arjuna,
I have seen things that would make a saint tremble with fear. And I don’t feel sorry for myself. I’m perfectly comfortable with saying I’m imperfect in every way. And I mean EVERY possible way. And yet my family still loves me… A LOT. Maybe there’s something wrong with them too. 😂 And most definitely I am blessed to have that.
Is that pious of me?
If I’m angers at Gurinder, then quite honestly, he is the only person who has the right to be offended by it. But I can assure you it doesn’t phase him in the least.
That said, I know you’ve seen many horrors yourself… life is like one big Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale.
Or maybe I am full of myself. Sure, I’ll add that to my list of character defects. No prob. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 12, 2019 at 10:22 AM
That sounds completely reasonable to me. 🙂

@ Sonia
Nice response sister . I liked that.
All the best
Vijay

Wtf is everyone so angry at the guru for?
I never understood why the posse on this here website got their pitch forks out in the 1st place.
What has GSD actually done to any of you to cause such personal offense and a heinous crime?
I get the feeling there too many molly-coddled touchy-feely selfish types who kind of expect the guru to save them or give them personal attention or something. Get over yourselves – the guy is a guide, he can’t snap his fingers and make all your problems disappear. In fact, seems likes fished out the kind of tough love which is just what the doctor ordered to snap a few outa their ‘woe is me’ funk.
I got no such illusions – to me the most he is a spiritual guide – you got to use your own common sense.
If you disagree with him, or figure he’s a fake, move on – end of story, nobody in rssb forced you to join or tried to stop you leaving – the vitriol and propaganda I’ve never understood.
It’s almost like you angry cos the guru didn’t kiss you night-night and tuck you in beddy-by don’t let the bed bugs bite.
I mean come on.
Let the magnificent 7 ride again

@ spence
I ain’t got nothing against you but cant stand people who are writing their chapter and verse in condemning a full master.
The bulldozer analogy you use is bullshit that bulldozer is forging your bars mate.
Keep that new age bible shit to yourself. Sorry mate you asked do I presume to know someone . Yes son I usually do!!!!! I will judge as you have done all your life ain’t!!!
See you pissed me off right off lately boy

A wise 🦉,
This may surprise you…
https://www.truemirror.com/

Another tale told on music: Babul Mora – Journey to the Infinite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3VvhvBUSak

Thank you SP, for the reminder of Charan’s birthdate.
Today is Friday 13th in the land of Oz. Huge storm last night.
Found this quote:
“Ques:” Why would the soul want to come back here from the superior planes, knowing how much suffering and misery is here?”
Charan: Ans: “Even now, we do not want to go back. We see suffering all around us. If anyone tells you to prepare yourself, you are going to die, are you prepared to die at once? We say, “No, we have so many things to do yet.” So even now we are not prepared to leave in spite of all the suffering in this world. We may think we are prepared to die, but realize that we are not when faced with the situation. Knowing that we are weeping and suffering, knowing that we are so miserable and unhappy, still we are not doing any­thing to get rid of this condition. We are doing the same things again and again. We are not taking lessons from that deed we have done in the past birth for which we are suffering now. We are victims of the senses, just the same as we used to be. We are not taking any lessons from the past. Nobody does.When the situation arises we do the same thing, and we are again sorry. We have forgotten the reason why we are unhappy.”

Um,
Beautiful. Is she really Indian?

@whodunit
Clearly I have a lot of time on my hands today…
Is your real name Chris?

Georgy you said
“It’s almost like you angry cos the guru didn’t kiss you night-night and tuck you in beddy-by don’t let the bed bugs bite.”
Haha so true. Or in Sonia’s case he didn’t tell her what she wanted to hear. Instead he told her to stop feeling sorry for herself or something like that.
Imagine if telling someone to stop feeling sorry for yourself can invoke such negativity makes me think how many times I told that to some of my relatives or friends.
This blog is entertainment nothing more it’s actually quite hilarious from time to time.
Oh hey that’s what Babaji said. You want entertainment go to Brian Hines blog 😂

@ Sonja
If you mean the lady danser, she must be although she doesn’t make that agile impression we are used from classic Indian dansers.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Keka+Sinha+
The lady singer certainly is … and famous too
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Dhanashre+pandit+rai
If there is you want to learn on Indian music and singing … she is the teacher.
It was certainly beautiful … listening all of a sudden I was flooded with tears as I often did when I was actively involved in the path … I had almost forgotten. It would happen anywhere and any time. The only problem I had in those days when it would hit me during driving.
Funny these memories … like memories of an happy childhood.

Georgy Porgy,
You take obnoxious to a whole new level. And who needs special attention from the guru when we have people like you constantly weighing in?? Trust me, I get all the attention I need. If I wanted his attention I would be nice to him and tell him how “amazing and wonderful” he is like all the people in his inner circle do. Pleeeeez.

Hi Arjuna
You write
“I ain’t got nothing against you but cant stand people who are writing their chapter and verse in condemning a full master.
” The bulldozer analogy you use is bullshit that bulldozer is forging your bars mate.
“Keep that new age bible shit to yourself. Sorry mate you asked do I presume to know someone . Yes son I usually do!!!!! I will judge as you have done all your life ain’t!!!
” See you pissed me off right off lately boy. ”
Actually Arjuna, it does appear that you do have something against me. But you have never met me so I know it’s nothing.
I’ve written so much about Gurinder, and my position changes with the available information. Though in all circumstances I advocate honesty, compassion and helpfulness.
Oddly, it seems most of that flies over your head. As if Compassion is above your pay grade. And so you respond with hatred. Or else it is the very compassion and forgiveness that rubs you the wrong way. I don’t know. The jury is still out.
Let’s see where you are tomorrow. Or ten minutes from now.
When you and I started our dialogue you told a story of being all alone and treated harshly by Gurinder. So you rejected him. At that time I was a “Gurinder can do no wrong” Satsangi and was trying to convince you to give things time.
But I never was harsh with you, as you are with me. And I’m never harsh with Baba Ji. Stuff happened, fraud happened. And his bank accounts were the washer and dryer of the money laundering. He gave other people access to those accounts, and made a lot of verbal agreements, and he’s been a bit of a stonewall when it comes to commmunication, except to deny that he accepted any money, even when hundreds of millions poured through his accounts, and his wife’s and sons. Bu it’s still a mystery. Don’t you think I’m being generous calling it a mystery?
The condemnation is all yours, Arjuna. You were condemning Gurinder then. Now you are condemning me. But if you are going to condemn me, can you also practice the forgiveness I’ve spoken of?
Try forgiveness. If Gurinder is perfect you don’t need to forgive him. But you still need to learn forgiveness for everyone else. Especially those you don’t agree with. So you don’t forge more bars, and basically, can live with yourself in peace.
And if Gurinder is wrong, you still need to learn forgiveness. Then he’s just another Bloke-In-A-Rolls like so many who have come and gone, making lots of changes, lots of pretty new buildings, but leaving the earth and a few people a bit scorched. And generally worse for it.
But these blokes are just as much a victim as anyone else and deserve our pity, and our offer to help. Sadly that can’t begin until the day when judgment is made. So the minimum condition for compassion and kindness is honesty. We can all be honest. You can start by acknowledging we, including you, don’t know the actual truth about the Fraud and Gurinder’s involvement. I don’t know. You don’t know. He could be innocent. He could be guilty.
That’s the foundation for compassion and forgiveness, and mercy : honesty and truth.
In both cases we should all forgive and offer our help. Because we are all part of the same family. We are all damaged goods.
Forgiveness isn’t just for the perfect, rich and powerful. It is also for the poor, weak and foolish. They especially need it.
The only price tag is honesty. Keep all the doors to compassion open. It makes it easier to be honest. Saints come through there.

Hi Georgy
You wrote
“What has GSD actually done to any of you to cause such personal offense and a heinous crime?”
Get real. There is a series of criminal frauds totaling hundreds of millions of dollars of other people’s money siphoned through the bank accounts of Baba Ji, his wife and sons, and all the participants were RSSB leaders, genius and friends of Baba Ji. Many of these have been dearly loved and trusted by Statsangis.
That anger, suspicion, and distrust are understandable. Of course no one has the full picture. But it doesn’t look good.
Who actually did what is still a mystery. And Baba Ji is being as transparent as mud.
Now, he could still be innocent. We don’t really know what happened.
But anyone who was determined and dedicated at least to their spiritual practice on the grounds that the Master was living evidence of it is, tonight, somewhere on the scale of patiently waiting, shocked, angry, disappointed. But no one who is honest is in denial about the fact that a series of crimes has been committed and the final word on who took what is still unknown. We only know hundreds of millions of stolen funds went through Baba Ji’s accounts. And we don’t know, actually, where they ended up.
All we know is a group of RSSB leaders, many in Baba Ji’s family, and Baba Ji as well, had some connection to all this. It came through them.
That’s a fact. But who did what? To whom? Who knows.
I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know.
All that aside, we should be patient with each other at this time.
We’re members of the same family. We all bought the same car.

My friend who lives at the Dera said yesterday that GSD still has to go to court—which we already know. Just not sure when his next court date is. She said everyone at the Dera believes these are all rumors.
But Spence is right—we have many facts along with several unanswered questions. We will have to be patient and see what unfolds.

Sonia interesting that you say you don’t want any attention from the master and yet a few months ago this is what you posted when he told you to stop feeling sorry for yourself.
From your post a few months ago
“However, even then I was very much in awe of him and somewhat “in-love” in a Master/disciple kind of way. I thought he would be the last person on earth that would ever hurt me.
My heart was absolutely broken”
Wake up sister your in denial. You want the attention and you didn’t get what you wanted and now your bitter.

SP writes,……. “Jim and a few others in here,
I do hope you realise it’s your Master, Hazur Charan Singh’s birthday today.
Posted by: SP | December 12, 2019 at 05:38 AM”
Me: I posted here in the past how I had purchased a Term $100,000 Life Policy from an Internet Insurance Agency. When I received my hard copy Policy in the mail, my heart skipped a few beats when Zi saw the Signature on my Policy Was signed,……..Charan Singh, Agent! So, all of this time I have been insured both Spiritually, and Physically, by none other than by Charan Singh. But on his Birthday, In my Snail Mail today, I received a letter from my Insurance Co. that my Police expires Dec. 19, this month! Damn, two reminders from Charan the same day. I wonder if my Graduation Day is near? Quite Amazing, actually,
Jim S.

Maybe when the Tin Man finally gets to see the Wizard he can ask for a heart.
Posted by: Sonia | December 10, 2019 at 07:46 PM
This Tin Man is smart. He knows how lucky he is not to have one.

Today is Charan Singh’s birthday? And a full moon. It’s been a very strange day. And yes, I’ve had an inordinate amount of free time on my hands. It feels like time is standing still. Sorry for posting so many comments but it truly feels like the clock has stopped (maybe I’m going to die soon 🤔).
Anyway, my husband and I took a drive tonight and for the first time since leaving India last December did we talk about his experiences at the Dera. It was the first time since we returned that I was willing to talk about it without screaming (a slight exaggeration).
He shared something with me that shook me. It shook me because his experience was the exact opposite of mine. He said that while he was sitting in front of GSD during karaoke (I didn’t go to that) Gurinder locked eyes with him a dozen times and gave him “darshan” in such a way that if Andrew had to die “right now today to get that feeling again, I would do it in a heartbeat”.
My husband was very kind and supportive of me throughout my difficult experience there. He didn’t share this with me before because obviously I wasn’t in the mood to talk about his cult.
All I can say is how strange it is that humans can be in the same place and have completely opposite experiences. I felt nothing but depression and fear and he felt some some sort of mystic love.
I don’t even know why I’m sharing this. It almost pisses me off even more.
I almost think he was nice to my husband just to spite me.
Lol 😂 😄 🤨 😠

It’s official, I no longer believe in God. This is all bullshit.

…he’s been a bit of a stonewall when it comes to commmunication, except to deny that he accepted any money, even when hundreds of millions poured through his accounts, and his wife’s and sons.

Actually, wasn’t GSD’s first comment he “hadn’t accepted money”?
But then, at a later date, he issued a clarifying statement that he
“doesn’t owe anyone”. That’s quite different.
The Dhillon family civil liability does not establish who within the family
and/or associates participated in civil and/or criminal malfeasance,
only that they’re on the hook for illicit loans. So, until more facts are
uncovered in litigation, GSD may legitimately allege he “doesn’t owe
anyone” and had no knowledge of the illegality.
His brief statement, perhaps per on attorney’s advice, was likely
intentionally brief and given only to assure RSSB audiences that
morally he is innocent. The strict brevity avoids client missteps in
weighing in on areas under litigation.

Sonia
Don’t think you need to be nice to him or fawn over him – I think that’s exactly what he seeks to avoid. Just be yourself and get yourself right.
When I went to Haynes Park, I got the distinct impression he hated the repeated requests for ‘grace’. But he just took part in sort of light-hearted to and fro with the crowd, many of whom obviously adored him.
Maybe others are correct to put him up on this pedestal but to me he is just a man. If he speaks sense, and touches something inside of you, then I say listen to him and his path. Like a v wise uncle or aunty. If not, then go elsewhere.
But what you so pissed off at the poor guy for?
Brother Spence – that must be your 1000th sermon on the mount. I think it’s you that needs to get real. What is it then – are we all brothers or you trying to get you brother Gurinder convicted or what. What kind of a bro are you ? Holy moly who needs enemies with a bro like you.

@ Sonya,
Your words about the difference between you and your husband reminds me of the story of Laila an Jamun, where Jamun ends up saying smilingly: “Friends, you should see her through my eyes”.
That story is not at all about Laila [GSD], not for a moment … or whether she deserves love, respect etc or not, is attractive or not etc …. no, its is all about the characters of the beholders, their points of view, about how each of them se the world
It is pointing at … where …. answers are to be found.
If you would leave GSD and everything related to him alone for a while and concentrate on researching the feelings, motivations and thoughts towards him from yourself and your husband i guess you will be supprised about the outcome.
Own your own thoughts and feelings … and …. if you I will help and do you good.

PS
>>…. if you I will help and do you good.<< should read: if you do, it will help and do you good. sometime this PC forgets to enter letters, there is no spelling controll and the writer too rambless here and there like an old car

Um,
Thanks for the beautiful link…
Really beautiful
<3

Hi Georgy
You asked
“Brother Spence – that must be your 1000th sermon on the mount. I think it’s you that needs to get real. What is it then – are we all brothers or you trying to get you brother Gurinder convicted or what. What kind of a bro are you ? Holy moly who needs enemies with a bro like you.”
If we are brothers then naturally we want to help each other. That starts with honesty.
Now you’ve gotten sermon 1,001. Baba Ji says your magic number is 1,111, so I’m resigned to my work for a little while. But happily so.

Dear Georgy Porgy,
I don’t mean to influence but only offer the insider’s view.
Please google “the path of the masters – The Baha’i Studies Web Server” and click for the pdf. It’s a 1980 edition of Julian P. Johnson’s classic.
“4. THE MASTER AND THE SUPREME ONE
There is one quality of the Great Masters which I hesitate to write down here because it is so difficult to avoid misunderstanding on this subject, yet it must be written. It is a fact that there is no difference between the real Saint or Master and the Supreme Being himself.” (pp. 213-214)

I woke up today in my rational mind (it’s been many years). What I now know using the Powers’s of logic (something we should all practice a little more) is that all so called “spiritual experiences” are delusions of the mind. Gurinder is just a lonely old man playing a sad game. I can feel nothing but pity for him. He is pitiful.

The closest thing we have to “saints” in this world are people like Brian who care about the truth, logic and rational thinking.

@Anon,
You see, I am also “Sarah”. Why don’t you go back to August 2018 and read all of those posts.
Gurinder saw all of those things that I wrote about him and was humiliated, hurt and angry. He is only human. So, he took the opportunity last December to get back at me. I’m sure in his mind that was “just do karma”. Fair is fair. When I think about it honestly, I can understand why he did what he did. He’s just a man, his feelings were hurt and his ego attacked. He’s not unlike me or you.
And that is the rest of the story.
The End.

Yes, the line just snapped… the cord is broken.

Amami
Yes maybe others have made such a recognition – I have not. I’m not sure that I am v spiritually inclined, or if I was, my upbringing and education have been covered by my spiritual antenna.
For example, I certainly have never seen orbs of light like our godfearing and holy Brother Spence.
But there is something about our existence that no words or science or anything else comes remotely close to explaining. Every now and again it is touched upon fleetingly in comments from various commentators on this site – mostly satsangis of a more genuine spiritual bent.
Even Hinesey Ji used to write far more poignant articles about 5-10 years ago. Nowadays I am less interested to hear about superficial ‘clever-by-half’ neuroscience or the health of his pooch PuPu or to see him moving around slowly in his PJs – but a couple of years ago there were some spiritual gems. Seems it’s all pseudoscience now.

“It is a fact that there is no difference between the real Saint or Master and the Supreme Being himself.” (pp. 213-214)
And he knows this.. How?
“It is a fact.”
Today we are more careful using that sort of language.
The Supreme being….. That would be everything, including you and I.
What Supreme being is separate from any part of the creation?

Georgy Porgy,
So what is genuine spirituality? Not as Julian Johnson explains? How does Baba Ji fit into your understanding?

Spence Tepper and Sonia / Sonya / Bella rose / Sarah, get real. Getalife or Getafix.

“Gurinder saw all of those things that I wrote about him and was humiliated, hurt and angry.”
Sonia/Sarah you do have a very high opinion of yourself and a sense of importance. Probably because you are used to being part of the “in crowd” at Dera but honestly, get over it girl. You are just another bumbling ex-satsangi but still constantly stroking your ego by commenting here. Of course much of your gossip keeps this blog going but I really don’t think Gurinder would care about your poor little girl hurt feelings.
The reason why Gurinder chastised you is probably trying to knock down your pride and ego and bring you back to earth. No-one is special, we are all little nothings, including Gurinder.

Jen, Guru Inc, and Whodonit, if you could find a way to share your thoughts without tearing others down (all in the name of defending the Master) I think it would be preferable to Gurinder Himself. After all, aren’t you doing what you are accusing Sonia of doing?
But don’t listen to me. Just try to emulate the more advanced of your brothers and sisters who love the Master and are reasonable with opposing opinions. Um, Brian Ji, Manjit, Dungeness and Mediator have different views, but they all present them with great honor, that speaks will of their positions.
Jen, you’ve done this also, before, in sharing your Zen wisdom. What are the conditions for you to speak to your own power and mastery of Zen thought?
Maharaji asked “who actually believes they are wrong? What purpose does that serve to bring it up?”

Personally, I think Sonia hits the target with stunning accuracy.

Gurinder is just a lonely old man playing a sad game. I can feel nothing but pity for him. He is pitiful.

“Verily”, sayeth the sermonizer, “Be one with your pity. Embrace this sad
piteous game atop our forsaken CofC Mount. Thy pity overfloweth.
Surely tears and mercy will wash away these infidels of the heart.
Loneliness hath left thee now. We’ve vanquished the sad, lonely man.
He is us, we are Him. His pity is ours and ours his. It floweth away. We soar
arm in arm to CofC regions of light. Beyond pity now and forever. Amen.”

Georgy Porgy has hit the nail on the head. Brian used to write some excellent stuff back in the day. Nowadays it’s mindless mindfulness.
I bought one of these new age dudes books, spirituality without religion, it made no sense at all. I kept reading, thinking he’d make some great point. Alas, ‘twas not to be.
Some of the comments here are amusing, more than interesting or enlightening.
I really liked the magnificent seven stuff.
Ahhhh sigh 😔

Sonia I know you are Sarah no need to tell me. I knew your comments about your Dera visit when you were commenting as Sonya too. I hope someday you find the peace you so desperately seek. Semis like your husband has. Lucky him

Ah yes
The Magnificent Seven
On a sizzling hot
Scorching sunny summer’s day
Seven mighty security sevadars
put the insolent puppy in his place. Teaching him Honesty and Humility the RSSB UK way.
Oh my, those were the days
Tea and scones all round

Jen you are incredibly judgmental.
Dungeoness—you are amazingly self-righteous.
Whodunit—getafix? Is that your saintly advice? Well done. 👏 You know who I am and I know who you are so GFY.

And, BTW, I’m almost 50 so I wouldn’t call them “little girl problems”. Just problems with all the lies Gurinder spews.

Anon,
That’s actually very kind of you. I feel a great deal of peace when I don’t think of RSSB or anything related. I’ll get back to that…

Ah yes good times Mike, let the 7 ride again!

Hi Spence,
(I’m late in responding to this)…
You wrote in reply to Whodunit:
Yes, it’s The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway.
“He is a great fish and I must convince him, he thought. I must never let him learn his strength nor what he could do if he made his run. If I were him I would put in everything now and go until something broke. But, thank God, they are not as intelligent as we who kill them; although they are more noble and more able. ”
But I prefer my own allegory.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 12, 2019 at 01:47 AM
Thank you for putting that story in context. ‘The Old Man and the Sea’ was one of my favorite books but it’s been 16 years since I last read it. I knew it sounded familiar…
You’re right—some people know your strength but don’t want you to realize it. Battered wives go through this sort of thing. Although, personally I’m definitely not a battered wife. My family and especially my dad (who is incredibly tough) have said only Andrew (my husband) could possibly have the strength to handle me. And he loves me tremendously so I’m very blessed. He is very strong. He’s a very steady person who can weather any storm. But I believe it’s his love that gives him strength.
I’ve always believed that I had to use my strength to fight injustices. And since I’m absolutely intensely terrifying when I’m mad (as anyone close to me can tell you) 😂 😂 it’s very difficult for me to let things go that I perceive to be grossly unfair. I’m also FIERCELY protective of my friends and loved ones and anyone who cannot defend themselves. Instead of beating myself up for being such an intense person maybe I should just embrace it—use it more for good… 🤔
I believe it’s your love that gives you strength. I know it is.

Sonia, as you know, we often see in others a reflection of who we are and yes, I am judgmental. Just as you are. Just as Spence is.
All the judgements you heap on Gurinder are probably just a waste of time anyway because its just you venting your hurt feelings and he would not care, he’s just doing his duty to the best of his ability.

‘The Old man and the sea’ by Hemingway may have been the backdrop to the analogy used by Sam White of Hawaii when he told the story as an analogical reference to how the marlin will swim toward the boat rather than trying to get away when the painful tugging of the hook stuck in his nose gets unbearable after thrashing away for days (lifetime) of struggle.
But it’s not the gist of the allegorical story. Because in Hemingways story it’s a fight of wills. Of who should triumph over the other.
In Sam White’s allegory it’s a classic example of how once the hook is embedded in the marlins nose there’s no way out. Once the marlin takes the bait it’s tickets. Eventually the fisherman will reel it in and the marlin will swim toward the boat to alleviate the nagging tugging of the painful throb in his nose between his eyes.
The fisherman is adept at fishing in the deep sea, he knows how much strain the line can take, how much slack it requires, and how and when it becomes expedient to reel his catch in. The marlin can thrash and cavort to the end of its tether eventually it will swim toward the boat. Once hooked its a fait accompli.

Oh, Jen… you see the thing is I will do everything within my power to make Gurinder hate me. Whatever it takes. My “feelings” aren’t hurt I just don’t want him in my life whatsoever and the only way I can accomplish that is to give him ever reason to despise me. After he “insulted” me last December his person in charge of arranging interviews with him tried to get my husband to convince me to go talk to him. But of course, I refused because I want nothing to do with him and I don’t want his influence in my life. And yes, I will attack him just simply to make him go away. And it will work. I’m very good at getting rid of the people I don’t like.
I’m sorry Jen but there’s just so much you simply do not and are not capable of understanding. My biggest problem with Gurinder isn’t that I am having difficulty letting go, my problem with him is that he won’t let me go.

Is it in the air or in the stars…is it an omen??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR4ReRAQGB8
Only the first 16 minutes, where the lady describes a vision.
Listen attentively …. we don’t have all the same ears as we are divided in signs which all handles reality in a different way.
Concentrate not on the man in the vision but on “the power plant”
Funny, funny …. these coincidents

“And he knows this.. How?”
Good question, Spence. I assume Julian Johnson was repeating Great Master. Whether you accept it or not, can we agree that RS orthodoxy equates Satguru literally with the Supreme Being? Georgy Porgy seemed unaware. The Path of the Masters states it vigorously and is fundamental.
But Georgy, I really am curious what interests you in Baba Ji. What’s his message to you as a non-initiate?

Hi Jen
You wrote
“All the judgements you heap on Gurinder are probably just a waste of time anyway because its just you venting your hurt feelings and he would not care, he’s just doing his duty to the best of his ability.”
You’re almost there Jen, I think. You said half the truth, it seems to me.
Sonia must vent, must express. We all must, and we all do. That is part of coming to terms, integrating, seeing it holistically. It is no insult to Gurinder. Gurinder is Gurinder whatever that is.
It is part of Sonia’s process to deal with what just happened. Just as everyone who encounters trauma must find a way to deal with it. It can take years.
However, it is certainly no waste of time. It is THE most important use of a human being’s time. And for this meditation is uniquely helpful. But while helpful, nothing replaces expressing what happened from one’s own perspective then and today when one has encountered trauma, of any kind.
And this expression and review, over and over, day in and day out, year over year, helps us. It opens the door naturally to seeing the events from other perspectives, at first just our perspective today, looking back. Then as we ourselves begin to see it differently, we can think about those other perspectives without feeling further burdened, insulted, threatened or harmed.
Some things you don’t move on from. You incorporate them. They are part of you, no matter how hard you try to reject them. But they are intolerable, and so cannot handle them and must reject that experience.
That safe place to do all this is CoC. Sonia’s doing exactly what she needs to do and is worthy of our respect.
Everyone criticizing her, as she criticizes Baba Ji, are all going through the same process. What others find intolerable in Sonia ‘s perspective is actually a part of the experience of Baba Ji they will at some point understand and except.
But Sonia and Brian lead the way because they are honest about their experience.
The others who criticize them are not yet able to acknowledge their own situation, so they criticize to push that experience, that loneliness, or negativity, or even Atheism as far away as they can.
Your rejection of others who criticize Baba Ji is also your own process of not yet dealing with your own experience fully yet.
So, Jen, you must proceed as you do. Something inside compels you to, and I think you must. In time something in you will not be so threatened, and you will consider it was different. But it is trauma, for good or bad.
But whether we experience trauma, or peace, or unimaginable bliss in his presence, it is all life – changing. In that sense no Initiate gets through this without trauma.
And that takes a lot of time and expression, and dialogue for us tiny human beings to find a way to digest the immensity of the experience.
Nuclear power can create a world or destroy it. All depends upon how we deal with it, how we learn about our, how we experience it.
So honor all of it.
Our destination is the same, progress.

Hi Whodonit.
You wrote
“But it’s not the gist of the allegorical story. Because in Hemingways story it’s a fight of wills. Of who should triumph over the other.”
Precisely. His Will or your will.
What you fail to see is your own thrashing and fleeing, and the guy in the boat holding the line, letting it out, reeling it in, letting you pull the boat, yanking and swimming as far away as you can, day and night, then reminding you of the basics not truth, pulling the line back in a bit, constant in his duty, sitting in the job Master placed him in, assigned by Radha Soami, is that old fisherman Brian Hines.
You are here on the hook of Truth, we all are. And it’s not easy for any of us.

Oops typo, should read “reminding you of the basics of Truth…”

Hi Spence,
I kind of dreaded reading today’s comments so I started with yours first as I knew they would be the most objective. Thank you for your insight and understanding.
Yes, I had a complete meltdown yesterday. And I’m sorry I said some of the things I did. This is a highly charged emotional time of the year for me. And adding to that we’re two pieces of information that my husband didn’t share with me about last December at the Dera. It’s not his fault. He wasn’t obligated to share with me the information that he did but in some ways it would have been extremely helpful if he had—much sooner.
Regardless, I’m having a very difficult time making sense of Gurinder and RSSB now… like way more than ever. On the one hand according to some people’s accounts he sounds like an actual “saint” and then on the other hand I have my 14 year experience on the path looking for answers as to why I felt such overwhelming fear all of the time. When I left the path the fear went away so the logical conclusion was it had to do with GSD/RSSB. But now I don’t know. I can either deny other people’s experiences or I can accept the possibility that they may be real and for some reason things just didn’t work out for me. Then I would have to leave with may questions that could never be answered. It’s not cut and dry. It certainly isn’t back and white.
I loved Gurinder until I grew to believe that he was actually the source of my fear. And then, naturally I felt deceived and just wanted to find the “truth”.
I hate being angry. It is so draining and completely burns me out within a day. So, I don’t want to be angry. And I really don’t want to attack people. I have reached the conclusion that there are some questions which I may never find answers to. I have to accept that and find a path that gives me peace.
And yes, all of this takes time. It’s a process. Sometimes a very painful process, sometimes not. We will see what the future brings.

Just typed that comment from my phone and it’s difficult to proofread from my iPhone, so I hope you can decipher the typos. 🙂

Howdy Anami
Not much to say. Suspect I come at things from opposite background to most on here. Grew up pretty much atheist, but over time and with certain experiences, feel that is not right. I think organized religion is complete crap, it irritates me actually but I got more tolerant over the years. But there is something deep deep at it’s core which a few more spiritual souls recognize. It’s an inner contemplative recognition which is why rssb makes sense to me. So I started chatting with various ppl and a few made sense on a deep level, it just clicked, so I read about mysticism a bit more and I think there may be something to it. Rssb seems like a good path to follow, and the guru makes sense to me, speaks in simple practical terms. I was amazed, because I was expecting the sort of new age crud that Brother Spence preaches from the pulpit about orbs of lights etc – none of it. But more then that, he just seemed really turned on. You watch ppl with others and you can see they know what the are doing or not. He most certainly knows. Treats ppl as they ought to be treated. I feel his flock are in good hands. And if a few overinflated egos get punctured in the process, Just what the doctor ordered for them more than anyone. And if the magnificent 7 old aunty sevadars bless Osho with a tap on his snoz for causing trouble, it’s a gift from on high.
Yeehah!

Hi Sonia
If you feel shame, it should be when you find yourself humbled in overwhelming bliss. Then you can be ashamed of having lived without that. But who can be blamed? A blind child needs to be held, loved, and guided, not shamed or bullied.
So if you feel shame as if you did something wrong, there is zero spirituality in that. If Baba Ji behaves like a jewel thief or a jerk, a villain or a hero, it’s fine to acknowledge it.
He can be all those things. Everyone has multiple sides.
This argument others make, “if you are in pain it’s your own fault,” is not only cruel and unhelpful. It is pure evil. People use it all the time to avoid stepping forward and helping. They use it to avoid their own pain. They use it to avoid being a decent human being. Terrible crimes were committed in history because those who saw it told their wives and children “just keep quiet. There must be a divine reason for this to have happened. Just bury you feelings. God is tesring you. Don’t say anything. Don’t do anything. Keep the faith. Deny your feelings. Debt your thinking. ‘
These aren’t human beings, they are sheep.
And God is testing you. He /She wants purple who can think and speak.
So, keep going, keep expressing, until you find bliss, and then express and celebrate that, too.
Go with your gut. Baba Ji has earned all the praise and condemnation. Not all the excuses and justifications. Those are all just excuses and justifications people give so they don’t have to do their part. So they can remain sleepy sheep at sleepy town dera.
Having a master becomes their excuse to blame others for being in pain? Having a Master turns people from thinking adults into spoiled unthinking bullies? At the human cost of others?
So, just ignore thier bullying and proceed to honor your own compass.
Think of all the people who said “I don’t think we should do that!” but were silenced by people shaming them for complaining.
And then really bad things happened. Like the corruption in RSSB and all the cover up.
A real Saint would apologize.
And in the absence of that, the flag is raised that we have a fraud.
You might not have a fraud. You might have a Guru who doesn’t mind sparring with real people to get them to use their voice and stand strong against the zealots. If Baba Ji is your sparring partner, keep swinging. He loves a good strong arm.
So put your boxing gloves back on, and keep punching. You’ve landed all the right blows. But you’ve got a couple hundred more to go.

One more point, Sonia
You wrote, “I hate being angry. It is so draining and completely burns me out within a day. So, I don’t want to be angry. And I really don’t want to attack people.”
You are not attacking people. You are fighting ignorance. For that you need a good punch and a very sharp sword. You have monsters to kill. Monsters who have enslaved a whole bunch of Satsangis and twisted their minds. So go slay the dragon. Don’t worship it.

Hi Georgy
I do appreciate your perspective on RSSB and Gurinder. It seems you find everything fine, and that those questions and concerns about conduct and corruption, you believe are without merit, and therefore have some personality flaw behind them. That would include me, based on your comments. But that is of no concern.
But it is your own praise and defense of Baba ji that raises this question sky high : Why haven’t you been initiated? What’s the barrier? What’s holding you back? Clearly you have only admiration.
What prevents you from asking for initiation?
I read your comment and in all sincerity would like to know your reasons. I’m trying to connect the dots in some reasonable way, assuming you have been completely honest in your praise of Baba Ji, and your criticism of all of those who question his integrity. Why would you even hesitate to ask for initiation?

Sonia you say: “I have my 14 year experience on the path looking for answers as to why I felt such overwhelming fear all of the time. When I left the path the fear went away so the logical conclusion was it had to do with GSD/RSSB.”
This is the problem of putting someone on a pedestal and its what satsangis do. We then have so many expectations and also if we are a perfectionist we put too much stress on ourselves. Also, fear could actually be a warning if you are intuitive and picking up on Gurinder’s energy/vibe. I’ve never had an interview with Gurinder, only with Charan. I was very meek and mild at that time and actually when I look back he seemed to be very bored lol. I don’t think we should give our personal power away to another. Interesting how fear is a natural emotion and a survival mechanism. Be kind to yourself sister!

Georgy,
Wow… you really opened up. Not like you.
Anyhoo, I really don’t understand how anyone thinks Spence has an over inflated ego. This is baffling me… I mean, sure I do but not Spence. 🤷‍♀️ Spence is just sincere and polite.

Whodunit,
The fisherman is adept at fishing in the deep sea, he knows how much strain the line can take, how much slack it requires, and how and when it becomes expedient to reel his catch in. The marlin can thrash and cavort to the end of its tether eventually it will swim toward the boat. Once hooked its a fait accompli.
Posted by: Whodunit | December 13, 2019 at 11:01 PM
What baffles me most about the Master/initiate relationship today is that quite often a person is not directly initiated by the Master but by a representative. And they may not ever meet or see their Master. This part seems a lot more like religion where you get baptized by a Priest or Parishioner and you never actually meet Jesus.
The only difference I can see is that the RSSB Master you were initiated under is actually alive on the earth whereas, in the case of Christianity, Jesus isn’t. The way RSSB is set up today with regards to initiation would be like Jesus having someone appointed to baptize disciples in another state (they didn’t have cars so that would be a good distance) and then those disciples never meet Jesus (even though he’s alive on earth) and Jesus may not know any of their names.
So my question is, what is the difference other than one being on earth and the other in Heaven? Or is that the only difference?

Simple. You answered your own question. Don’t take rocket science to understand the difference.
Jesus is dead 2000 years plus, (so nobody knows even a jot about who he was or looked like or sounded like or spoke in which tongue, or whether he died on a Roman cross in Jerusalem or in a cave in Srinagar) as is Mohammed, Buddha, Zarathustra, Mithras, Nanak, Kabir, Tegh Bahadur, Ravidas etc and etc.
The guru who initiated you, (whether by proxy via representative or directly in person) isn’t.
The hook stuck between your eyes is a reality, deny it, reject it, react to it, try absolve it or denounce it, do whatever you will to eradicate it or remove it. It’s there till you face it and accept it for better or worse, it ain’t going nowhere till the one who placed it there reels the poor sucker in.

If you like you can scratch the last sentence. I was actually being a little facetious. You can take it any way you want to, either it’s the poor sucker or the lucky bugger getting reeled in, disciples choice, come screeching cavorting flapping and excruciatingly, like a bound chicken headed for the chopping block, or come singing with rapture and delight like a bride to the alter.
Either way it’s a done deal, the choice, like the pudding, is in the eating, and is hers or his to savor at the feast.

Spence
The monsters are in the minds of you and Sonia, nowhere else.
What has the monstrous monster guru done to you personally? Don’t go on the hearsay of others or news reports, what has he done to YOU? Come on spit it out, it’s time for honesty Brother Spence.
As for this court case, it’s innocent until proven guilty. Even if found guilty (unlikely) what is the monstrous crime perpetrated?
It’s not genocide, murder, rape, abuse or any other monstrous crime. No adultery, racism, deviant sexuality or any other depravities that may offend your godfearing holiness.
It’s not even an accusation of rssb (non-profit) money being misused – which might justify another sermon from the pulpit.
Nope, it’s none of the above. Its all a corporate dispute. Involving a for-profit family business that the guru was born into (probably to his dismay) and his cousins were managing. The guru is not even the reason for the debt arising in the first place. The only reason the guru seems to be involved is because one of the managers is a drowning man who has implicated the guru, along with 50 or so other individuals (presumably family), as receiving company money.
Imagine you Brother Spence sold a car to Sister Sonia and gave part of it to your devout brother Georgy. Sister Sonia discovers a few months later that your car is shit and wants her money back. You say sorry, it’s buyer beware and that’s the risk of doing business, but the courts say no Brother Spence you must repay for whatever reason. You say but I no longer have the money. What is pious Brother Georgy guilty of? How do you recover money years after a bad business deal.
All this supposes there were loans in the first place. Brother Georgy says please don’t talk rubbish about loans and drag me into your unholy mess – pay your own business debts Brother Spence.
Rule no 1 never ever mix business and family. Unfortunately, it’s a family business so I dont think the guru could avoid this.
As far as monsters go, I think you are away with the fairies, and prone to conspiracy theories generally as are most religious folk.

@ Whodunit
>> The hook stuck between your eyes is a reality, deny it, reject it, react to it, try absolve it or denounce it, do whatever you will to eradicate it or remove it. It’s there till you face it and accept it for better or worse, it ain’t going nowhere till the one who placed it there reels the poor sucker in. << Compare it with: [1] Our grandmothers warning: "Little man don't you ever sell your soul to the devil" [2] His uncles remark about initiation as stepping over an threshold of the French foreign legion … before you are free, afterwards you have to stick to the rules. [3] Most people have ample idea of what they are letting themselves in and their motivations are mostly related to the world. One teacher in the lineage divided seekers in 8 categories all having selfish motives to ask for initiation, except the last one, the gurmukh. [4] the remark of his uncle that this bi-lateral contract cannot be ended uni-lateral and that he, having obligations towards the "owner of the sheep", the lord, and NOT!!! to the sheep, wull do his job as he deems fit, even using his dogs. So yes this might easily create fear, as owner never have sheep for the sheeps pleasure. In castaneda " the great eagle" feeds on the consciousness of hose who die. Not strange a tough, seeing around in nature where every creature stays alive by feeding on on anothers live. Food being the remaining life-energy as in a battery. They all llike to talk about love but the reality of life might be more grim. Often and strange enough when his uncle would make these eerie statements the audience would laugh their hearts out but there is nothing funny in slavery. When I hear satsangis make remarks as you do, there is a tone of amusement in their voice, what good has happend to us, we ARE reeled in …. hurray, hurray! Its kind of weird, unnatural rection. Yes … we are poor suckers … we are used … used for what spriitual? Remind my grandmother words. … sorry Sonya, if you read this.

Yep that’s the reason I’m worried about applying for initiation – dunno if I want a hook in the nose. Might be a blessing or a pain, but a hook is a hook.

And Whodunit ….
If a person has himself dancing from joy been hooked up like a fish or brought to the “stable” for further “transport”, he fails to use the other offers” of eternal hail from other religions, mystical traditions and even the the non-duals schools and atheists … and … as you know …. failing to accept such a “generous” offer will be at your own costs …. you have to burn in their hells for eternity or face other types of eternal torture in the name of LOVE.
Mind you … the creator shouting at you in this or that religious form at gun point …. I LOVE YOU …… and than in low voice .. but if you don’t accept my love I will destroy you after having tortured you.
That is how the the nobility offered “protection” against eath in the world and the religions in heaven, the criminal organisations do the same.

@ Georgy
That is a very powerful post. Very mature. You mention monsters . GSD ain’t one .
But there are a lot of twisted monsters on here. I will respect brian and not mention names.
Remember they are taking on a master. Myriad good karma are going down the toilet. You know what beats me there are so many here who comment as experts thinking they know GSD. We dont even know ourselves or when we are going to die.
All the best buddy

Hi Georgy
You wrote
“The monsters are in the minds of you and Sonia, nowhere else.”
Actually Georgy, they are in each of us. They are our ignorance. And that ignorance can take the symbolic form of an enemy, such as you are making of others, or Saints, such as some, superstitiously, make of Gurus.
But we agree that Gurinder is just a human being doing a job. The Gurinder in your head, however, is the only one you will ever know. That’s true for each of us. That is the Guru we should slay. Maybe doing so we will come to learn of the real Baba Ji, whomever he actually is.
I see you did offer an answer to my question about why you haven’t applied for initiation.
You wrote
“that’s the reason I’m worried about applying for initiation – dunno if I want a hook in the nose. Might be a blessing or a pain, but a hook is a hook.”
This is where the Marlin allegory falls apart, since the fish was already on the hook the day it was born.
Your delay is also due only to your own issues.
But if you truly understand the meditation, then there is only upside. It’s just a great sword for you to destroy your own inner dragons, just as each of us must do every day.
Amy form of meditation is a great start. If you can bring yourself to take any step at all. Mindfulness is a fantastic step.
Or dancing around in your PJs! That’s meditation also. It’s real.
But the real issue is whether you are in touch with your own demons to understand the necessity of daily inner work, whether worshipping Master or dancing to the flow of energy that moves through you.
Until then, you may project demon qualities upon all those you disagree with. Because the more you do this, the more intimate you become with those demons, however you put make-up on them and dress them to look like me, or Sonia or anyone you choose. . And when they begin to exhaust and consume you, then you may understand you carry them with you. They are your toys and no one else’s.
And that is where we all need help, and some great tools.
Then you won’t hesitate for two seconds, and not indulge those demons in throwing rocks at anyone.
You are already on the hook, dear Georgy Porgy. And have been fleeing and thrashing about for years.

Georgy Porgy,
Uh…, jolly good, old chap?
No worries, Cousin Zigzag runs a de-initiation service, “1 crore INR a pop, heh heh, and all the tasty Woodbines you can smoke.”

Georgy,
I’m not saying that you should or shouldn’t apply for initiation but (now that I’m past my few days as an atheist) I believe that no one can give you what you already have. You are already connected to the source of your soul (otherwise you wouldn’t have one). You just need a teacher that can show you who you really are. Maybe Sant Mat is ok… maybe the problem is just the way it’s packaged. Whatever works for you.
—armchair guru 🙄

Hi Pema Taj,
Yes, I was initiated by proxy—Gurinder initiate. And there are elements to Sant Mat that ring true for me. But the only thing I’ve found that actually tames and controls my mind/ego is when I practice the principles from ACIM. It’s unfortunate for me and those around me when I don’t. 2019 has been the most challenging year of my life. Not the worst year, but the most challenging. Although a few profoundly wonderful things have happened this year as well. 2020 — a fresh start.
In some ways ACIM is just like Sant Mat and without my experience in RSSB it would be hard for me to decipher the meaning in the text of ACIM. But they’re are a few areas where they are opposite. So, it’s interesting. There’s another thing in my life—a spiritual support group and that’s encouraging.
I actually sat in meditation for about 20 minutes yesterday. I even repeated the names (I managed to remember them). I thought, well I’ll give it a chance and just practice 3 different philosophies at once and see where I wind up or if I have some sort of “profound revelation”. 🙂
Are you an initiate? I assume you’re a satsangi? I feel like it’s offensive to call Satsangis “Rhadasomis” to their face. But when I’m talking to other people (even to my husband sometimes) I’ll refer to Satsangis as Radhasomis.
And after all these years I still can’t spell Radha/Rhada!! I always have to look at a book or online to remember where the h goes. Lol

Whodunit,
Hmm… I wonder how many men would find wives if they took that approach. I guess that’s why they have arranged marriages in India. 😅

Hi Georgy
You write
“Imagine you Brother Spence sold a car to Sister Sonia and gave part of it to your devout brother Georgy. Sister Sonia discovers a few months later that your car is shit and wants her money back.”
She paid for the car with money she stole.
So now the court demands of her repayment. She doesn’t have the money. She gave it to Brother Spence and Brother Georgy.
Now, because these monies were stolen, you and I are legally and morally on the hook to return the stolen monies.
The fact that we didn’t do our due diligence before accepting all that stolen money is on us.
We took stolen monies. Now we must repay.
Sad, but common.
Yes, if you to stolen funds, all business matters aside, you must return that money.
Basic ethics and law.

RE Brian’s rules regarding on or off topicness
If we think Brian is wrong we can say
“Oh no Sir I must say you’re Wrong”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X_DVS_303kQ
All things must pass
Into the night

Hi Sonia:
You wrote:
“What baffles me most about the Master/initiate relationship today is that quite often a person is not directly initiated by the Master but by a representative. ”
Your relationship with that turbaned dot on stage thousands of rows ahead of you is nill. Put aside all notions of superstitious supernatural happenings. Most of those are imaginary and a distraction.
The only connection is the concept the teacher represents as the Perfect Living Master as it is represented symbolically within you.
So, everyone has a “perfect living master” within them. They follow it slavishly. Without thinking, subconsciously. It is there own mind. They follow it without question, perfect loyalty, perfect obedience. Every word, scripted by that “perfect living master.” It’s already there, and for everyone. It drives our lives.
The Marlin was hooked a long time ago, and we don’t like where this is going.
So, how to get unhooked? Where is true freedom?
The idea of a perfect living Master is a great idea. The liberator.
The Sant Mat Guru might be getting people hooked.
The True Saint gets them unhooked.
This is what Brian Ji is doing all the time.
That there is a higher source of total authority than what we have right now in our mind. It’s a great hope. That teacher represents something that appeals to us as greater and better, more powerful. Liberating.
And we have hope that devotion to them, and the concept of perfection they represent, may help us grow from within and beyond these chains we find ourselves in. They are stronger than our weaknesses. We can trust them when we cannot always trust ourselves. It’s a great notion.
But that being is within.
And so long as we take inspiration from a true teacher, our new Inner Guru is being informed by the outer one. They become the same to us.
However, that Perfect Living Master is only the one inside us. At best they wear Gurinder’s face, or Mahjaraji’s face to humor us. That’s where we live, within this mind. The outer one is filtered by mind, who informs the inner one.
And that inner one is already there. But we need a point of focus to find Him/ Her within us, hence the human representative. The teacher.
In fact the inner Guru has no form at all. He/She takes on the form we have consciously adopted as “My Perfect Teacher”. Within, they project themselves from life itself that lives fully within us, in the form we associate, the symbolic form, with purity, perfection, life, living spirit, etc…
The idea that they are perfect is important, because we understand they are different from our conscious selves. They are before these higher level programming languages, foundational. They are our true machine language. And we are attempting to re-write the higher level code to more perfectly match that Machine Language. Because everyone around us is messing with our higher level code. It’s an open language, and we can be manipulated. Higher level language code is being written and inserted into us by our friends, neighbors, leaders. We think differently all the time without even being aware of it. We are accepting things today that a few years ago we would have proclaimed false and bad.
All that matters is your own inner Master.
Your inner Gurinder doesn’t need to be at all like the outer one.
Could be a different person altogether. It just needs to be a reliable source of inspiration and guidance for your own development. Because the fact that something does or doesn’t ring true comes from within YOU. It is that which is always there, always watching over you. Your crap detector is already there and fully functioning. Just listen and learn. Strip away the false, and what is left is the real.
And any form of personal development, inner and outer, are just means to clear away the false code and unveil the purity of that living Truth within you.
You do not need to explain, or justify any of Gurinder’s behavior, since your own Inner Master only looks like Gurinder because that is how you have painted him. You can paint him differently, when you find a better symbol of the inner perfection.
And if you see something terribly wrong in Gurinder, flee. Turn around. Find that perfection in the source that rings true within. Do not internalize his corruptions.
All this corruption we see demonstrates the outer Master is nothing close to a Perfect Living Master at RSSB these days.
So long as the Gurus played their role as figurehead symbols of something important within each of us, followed the vows, taught the values with truthfulness and integrity, they helped people find their own inner Master. But when their personal behavior infected the purity of the teachings, then that becomes a corrupting influence.
We all must have some symbol however, even something abstract. The mind communicates within itself in symbols. It is built on code. That’s just a matter of inner language, inner communication.
I M H O (one mind reflecting upon itself with another).

Mike, I heartily agree with you. It is always possible to say that someone is wrong. I do that all the time. I say that President Trump is wrong. I say that the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, is wrong. That’s free speech, free thinking, free reasoning.
But to quote the RSSB guru, it’s also true what he says: “It’s my way or the highway.” If you want to belong to RSSB, you follow the RSSB rules. If you want to be a Trump appointed official, you follow the Trump rules. And if you want to comment on this blog, you follow this blog’s rules.
It’s amusing to me how religious believers are so ready to follow the rules of their chosen faith, but rebel against the commenting rules I’ve set forth as the Six Commandments. I wonder if those people also break the rule in their country of driving on a certain side of the road. By and large, rules help promote harmony in life. As a dog owner, and as a parent, I’m well aware of that.
Well, also as a husband. I’ve learned the rules of how to load the dishwasher, and I follow them in loving obedience to my wife.
(She commands that dishes and silverware be put in the back of the dishwasher first, while I had the ridiculous idea that because eventually the whole dishwasher will fill up, it makes as much sense to load the front of the dishwasher first. But I came to see that it is a bit easier to put stuff in from back to front, since that way there’s a clear open space to place the silverware and dishes.)

(She commands that dishes and silverware be put in the back of the dishwasher first, while I had the ridiculous idea that because eventually the whole dishwasher will fill up, it makes as much sense to load the front of the dishwasher first. But I came to see that it is a bit easier to put stuff in from back to front, since that way there’s a clear open space to place the silverware and dishes.)
Posted by: Brian Hines | December 15, 2019 at 11:03 AM
🤣🤣🤣 hilarious! Well done! Good husband. 😂

Spence, sometimes I have to wait till I get to my computer to be able to reply properly to your comments… 💻
⌨️ Q W E R T Y 😉

Whodunit,
Have you considered that perhaps the way Sant Mat in the Punjab views the Master/Disciple relationship is actually based on cultural roles that go back hundreds of years. And nobody has stoped to question this? Culturally for decades… centuries in India husbands were almost “lord” of their wife. Arranged marriages, obedience, submission. It’s like all of that “forced love” has carried over into the way Sant Mat interprets the Master’s role and many masters seem to feel it’s their right to treat their wives/disciples this way. And they never take time to question this behavior. They never try to look at it outside of their cultural paradigm. I do not believe the lord showed up and said to any so called master or guru that “the end justifies the means”.
And I’m not being facetious. I’m just asking you to consider looking at this from a different perspective.

Spence Tepper is spinning you a mighty long laborious yarn.
You don’t need to listen to all this rigmarole mental gymnastics schizo mumbo-jumbo, just listen to your husband, he has the inside scoop of the inside story of how it cuts, and how true and how deep. That is why he gets proper intensity of deep attention darshan and drishti, and other moron mental issues and psychoactive schizo’s don’t.
All this other song and dance routine of all these psychological tricks and effects by the know it all dream merchandising merchants leads nowhere but more confusion than you have already.
Let’s see what happens with the sage of pseudo psychic phenomenon if this comment somehow gets published on the ‘uncensored open thread’ where freedom of opinion and speech is supported by the power of logical reasoning.

Sant Mat has it’s own form of traditional values handed down through the teaching by teachers from soami ji Seth Shiv Dayal to Baba Jaimal, Baba Sawan, Sardar Bahadur Jagat, Huzur Maharaj Charan and Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon.
Each had their own style and stamp of imparting their messages to their respective congregation of disciples, based on the times and conditions prevalent during their tenure as spiritual head of the institution. That is why a living teacher is necessary to convey the current teaching to the current students and audiences.
Gurinder’s style and content is far removed from that of Soami Ji or Baba Sawan Singh yet basic tenets and spiritual concepts remain intact within the husk of the outer portrayal of the so called ‘tradition’.
Your reaction to the traditional roles and external values come from your western style influences, that’s possibly why Gurinder told you that you harbor first world issues.
Basically Gurinder has stripped a huge amount of the ‘tradition’ out of sant mat.
He has also been very active in uplifting women’s rights and conditions in India and further afield.
He has demoted any notion of religiosity from the overall content of the direct teaching to the extent of almost ridiculing his own personal authenticity by challenging audiences to determine for themselves whether he’s genuinely worthy of his guru / teacher status or not by suggesting how would you know whether he’s not a fraud?
He has also suggested why not burn the books or sell the buildings if they don’t foster inner development of the inner meditation and practice.
So the traditional aspect of the Punjabi influence in RSSB might be present due it being the majority of followers, as these are the core backdrop conditions to the need of the people who flock to the teaching.
But this is the outer manifestation of the background you are interested in analyzing, it does not have much to do with the inner meditation process between an individual disciple and his or her individual relationship with his/her teacher directly.

Spence you say: “You’re almost there Jen, I think. You said half the truth, it seems to me.”
“So, Jen, you must proceed as you do. Something inside compels you to, and I think you must. In time something in you will not be so threatened, and you will consider it was different. But it is trauma, for good or bad.”
You also mentioned: “That there is a higher source of total authority than what we have right now in our Mind. It’s a great hope. That teacher represents something that appeals to us as greater and better, more powerful. Liberating.”
…………….
Hi Spence, I no longer believe in a guru, trying to practice taking the middle road, understanding that experiences are just happening and they are neither good nor bad and they have nothing to do with me. The real me. The centred me. Just like everyone else if they can find that centre.
Thanks for your message which at first annoyed me because its kinda preachy but there you go! I’ve accepted what you have to say and appreciate there is much wisdom in your words.

@ spence .
There are no regions so dont waste time talking about something you have no idea about.
Seriously mate its embarrassing. Laters

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
“There are no regions so dont waste time talking about something you have no idea about.”
Well, I have experienced the regions. From a very young age. And they fit the descriptions in spiritual literature. Which I read about as I grew older, after the fact.
They exist for me.
I’m guessing they don’t exist for you. That’s fine.
I can’t say they are real for you. Or anyone else. They are real for me.
The world is bigger than you, Arjuna, and bigger than I. It’s OK to say we don’t fully understand it.
Sometimes, in meditation, I see the stars, or the moon. It’s a perfect HD view. I can just sit there quietly listening to Bhajan watching the stars or the bright moon. And the stars are very bright indeed. The sky is full of them! In my inner sky, if I focus on any one point of light, the stars multiply until the entire sky is filled with light. I’m moving through them!
So if I want to enjoy them, I just have to remain a little non – chalant. Just mindful, thinking mostly about Master being there with me. And then He arrives also.
Where does that come from? It must be within my own brain.
It’s real to me. It is persistent.
But my reality and yours can most certainly be different.
However, I like saying I don’t know about things I don’t know.
But things that are personally important or beautiful, naturally I love to speak about.
Everyone has beautiful experiences, each of their own kind, inner and outer, physical, of the heart, and of thought. We witness connections with each other that can be equally beautiful.
So don’t worry about my experiences of grace and beauty. You are a human being, and as such have been blessed with plenty of your own.
I would never tell you they aren’t real. I would celebrate them with you, and through your telling, through your joy in remembering and re-telling, experience them with you vicariously.
,
I know the regions as well as any one knows the streets of their own neighborhood. But where they came from, what they really are?
Who can say. I do question a beautiful sunset, a glowing lake, the clouds, pink at sunset. What are they really? Where do they come from? I question what, where, why, how, when. But I don’t question that they exist, for there they are. I enjoy them.
We live in our own minds, Arjuna. And you live inside yours too. That’s the only world you will ever live in. You might as well get to know it better before trying to mind – read others ‘ experience.

the preface of the Yoga sutras of Patanjali by Taimni on how to dig into the field of Yoga, is an refreshing read:
https://www.yogastudies.org/wp-content/uploads/Science_of_Yoga-Taimni.pdf
Just an couple of pages

Hi Whodonit
You wrote
“You don’t need to listen to all this rigmarole mental gymnastics schizo mumbo-jumbo, just listen to your husband,”
LOL…
Why don’t you let Sonia make up her own mind?
Then you wrote
“But this is the outer manifestation of the background you are interested in analyzing, it does not have much to do with the inner meditation process between an individual disciple and his or her individual relationship with his/her teacher directly.”
That’s not supernatural mumbo jumbo?
And all the superstition behind it?
I’ll tell you who the first whistle-blower should have been in the whole Daichi / Ranbaxy / Fortis / Religare mess. If what you wrote has any truth in it. It should have been an RSSB satsangi. It would have been an RSSB Satsangi.
It should have been the Master. He was entrusted with their souls. They stole millions, he let them.
The criminals, whomever they turn out to be, will be a subset of the RSSB Satsangis who participated. That includes Baba Ji, his wife and sons, the brothers, Sunhil and others. All participants, either actively or passively.
There is zero morality in that.
If there is a schizo mumbo jumbo it’s in trying to reconcile these crimes with some shred of credibility in RSSB.
A credibility eroded with each attack you make.
RSSB leadership may have a notable history of good deeds. But tonight there is much shame. Not because human beings make mistakes, but because RSSB is taking no leadership in doing the right thing, and that starts with a public apology to the people their key members stole from.
What is real spirituality all about if you can’t give yourselves to Shabd? Shabd which doesn’t tolerate lies. Shabd which compels you to speak the truth even if your attorney implores you to secrecy and silence, even when speaking out lands you in jail or worse. Because once you are in Shabd nothing false can exist there. You can’t lie, you can’t wear two faces. You can’t even refuse the request of a beggar.
But RSSB, as evidenced by members here, is far separated from Shabd, even claiming the marriage still exists when the divorce papers were certified by Sat Purush long ago.

Whodunit,
Wow, you must have been digging through the archives. My “first world problems”?? What exactly are my first world problems? Is depression a first world problem? If so, India must be a first world country.
Is suicide a first world problem? Again India is much richer than I thought.
And yes, while it’s true Gurinder has made it clear that he has no empathy for mental illness (he said to a questioner last Christmas, “you don’t want to know what I think about people with mental illness”) and while he doesn’t initiate schizophrenics, I am surprised at how many mentally ill people he has accidentally initiated. Lol
Listen to my husband? I think not. His experiences were his and his alone. What’s the opposite if Drishti? One time I was sitting close to Gurinder during a different karaoke session and after he gazed into my eyes I got the most severe panic attack of my life that lasted several weeks—I had to take heavy medication during that period to cope.
Nonetheless, I don’t have that kind of fear in my life anymore. I must say though, while we’re on the subject of crazy psych babble. I one time saw Charan (after he passed away). I walked past him and the look in his eyes was pure drishti. I carried that bizarre experience with me and would call on him when I was experiencing my worst moments of panic disorder and he would bring everything to a halt immediately. He had the power to make all the fear stop instantly. Gurinder never had that power. He even said that I was very precious and at one point asked me if I wanted a different Master.
Yes, that sounds like absolute psychobabble but it was also phenomenal and it taught me that I don’t have to live with fear.
I honestly don’t know if Gurinder has ever seen his Master on the inside or if he has actually traveled through the regions because he never talks about them and has a very different take on meditation than his master or the previous masters. I do know what I’ve seen and the miracles I’ve experienced with regards to Sant Mat. I never doubt for a second that Charan Singh and Great Master truly love me based on my experiences. But I’ve never seen Gurinder inside and he has never shown me any form of love whatsoever so you can’t really blame me for being skeptical can you.

Arjuna
Yes, I agree with you – I don’t think he’s a monster either , far from it. He may be a saviour to many. And I also agree we don’t even know ourselves.
Do I have to keep being mature ? Or am I allowed to mention the 7 ever again?

Whodunit,
To be fare, Gurinder did grant me an interview one year. It lasted about 8 minutes. I don’t know what his going rate is but perhaps I should pay him for his time. Psychologists here make about $150/hr. So, since I don’t want to be indebted to him perhaps I should mail him a check for $18.75. Does that sound reasonable?

For Spence
If you’re supposedly immersed in shabad then you don’t need to utter one more syllable, nor write one more damning word about anything to anyone.
Then you would remain mum and shut up about all your supposed inner spiritual experiences because you would be cherishing them for what they are, and the purpose for which you had attained such a state of deep enlightened reverence in your heightened experience.
You can’t have it both ways, to be scathing and irreverent to the degree of obnoxious chastising judgment on the one hand, and reveling in your deep state of enlightened awareness immersed in soothing enraptured shabad on the other.
If you have this innate urge to moralize and cast judgment on the supposed crimes of an institution, to accuse culpability of the entire RSSB organization and administration for the alleged heinous crimes, (by your morally justified decree), of select individuals who, by association got caught up in a close knit business complexity of events between close family members. And by account perpetrated through activities and deals between high finance interests and acquisitions of international corporations such as Daiichi Sankyo and Religare / Ranbaxy and subsidiary companies, and thereby try and attach your supposedly flawless moral standards to appropriate such alleged atrocities (again by your individual inaccurate system of judgment), to unilaterally declare unequivocally that certain specific individuals are culpable for the maladministration of public funds, then I have doubts you are immersed in shabad to the extent that you boast you are.
Either you are spiritually enlightened or you claim to be the moral watchdog of RSSB as your personal validation of ethical jurisdiction.
If in your state of moral indignation you have personal insight as to the immoral behavior of the RSSB administration and its members, to accuse them as the main instigators and perpetrators of these heinous crimes you are so morally indignant in expressing your abhorrence to, then go tell it to the judge and testify your findings to the court through consulting your inner evidence that you have gained by your flawless knowledge you have attained through your immersed experience in shabad.

Sonia I don’t know, it seems reasonably obvious you have a deep seated love / hate relationship going with Gurinder.
You either love him, or hate him, I’m not sure if you’re sure which. Perhaps try and make up your mind.
I think most people are somewhat confused and irrational about a lot of things. A lot of us have issues, if we didn’t I doubt we’d be thrashing around here on this little rock hurtling through space trying to survive from being eaten by others, and in turn harming and hurting others either by default or by innovative design.
It seems ultimately nobody has much choice in a lot of their circumstances, it seems we get thrust into predicament probably of our own making, but not necessarily by our own conscious wishes rather through consequences of a series of actions that have brought us to where we are.
So between this and that condition we strive to be the best we can to make of our lives and circumstances. We can judge ourselves harshly or we can judge the others with the yardstick we place them under through our imperfect judgment.

Big bang retold: The weird twists in the story of the universe’s birth
It certainly wasn’t big, and probably didn’t bang – and the surprises in the conventional story of the universe’s origins don’t end there
SPACE 11 December 2019
By Daniel Cossins
WHATEVER you do, don’t ask where it happened. “The most common misconception is that the big bang was an explosion in a particular place,” says William Kinney, a cosmologist at the University at Buffalo in New York. “That’s just completely wrong.”
The best evidence for the big bang is all around us in the cosmic microwave background, the radiation released once the universe had cooled sufficiently for atoms to form, when it was about 380,000 years old. And that is the point: everywhere in today’s universe was where the big bang was. “It’s not something that happened somewhere, but something that happened everywhere, including the space you happen to be occupying now,” says Dan Hooper at Fermilab in Illinois.
When cosmologists talk about the big bang, they are talking about an extremely dense, hot state that existed around 13.8 billion years ago and which has since expanded and cooled to make the universe we know today. Extremely dense and hot – but not infinitely so.
The idea that the universe was created from an infinitesimal speck, known as the big bang “singularity”, comes from winding the showreel of an expanding, cooling universe backwards and not stopping until we get to a beginning. But, unfortunately, our current theories of physics can’t deal with space and time on such unfathomably small scales. So we can say nothing sensible about the moment when the universe was a single point, if indeed it ever happened. “We may just have to come to terms with that,” says Kinney.
“The big bang didn’t happen somewhere”
Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24432601-200-big-bang-retold-the-weird-twists-in-the-story-of-the-universes-birth/#ixzz68F7thjKh