Open Thread 42 (free speech for comments)

Hi Sonya!
Sorry to hear about your marriage difficulties and in particular the poor behavior of your soon-to-be-ex.
The end of a twenty year marriage is a major life event.
I wish you profound moments peace, insight and strength as you move through all that this transition means, and the necessary time to transition through it.
Do you have social support from family or friends to help?
Posted by: Spence Tepper | March 21, 2022 at 07:12 PM
Thanks, Spence. Yes, I have friends—well, I guess we sort of spilt our friends now. But I’ll be fine. Lots of self-help books for these types of situations. Our marriage started going south when I left the path. It’s like the gap got a little wider day by day. But I’m not going to stay in something I don’t believe in just to keep my marriage. It’s a strange sacrifice.

Karma has elements that can be proven.
We are gong to go through destiny. In retrospect every event has a cause.
If we could understand all things perfectly, we could see it, just as easily as we plan and do most things, limited to what we know.
We are born under certain conditions, with biochemistry, certain people in our lives, certain treatment by them, certain locality, cultural beliefs certain education, and reactions by us. It is all understandable and predictable the more we can see.
So our life is preset by these initial conditions, and environments and proceeds predictably from them and the other events we witness and create.
The plan is basically there.
Our reactions also contribute new effects.
So, we have the unique plan for this life set at the start from conditions created long ago, before we were born.
We have the destiny we will predictably live through.
And we have all the effects on others and ourselves from our own participation and action. These effects that touch upon other people have long term effects that may extend beyond our life.
All this is observable fact.
What is not proven is our participation in the past that created the conditions we were given. Still, we were handed what we were handed. There is no denying it, only accepting and working with it.
Nor is there proof that we will be subjected to the effects of our behavior after this life is over. There is only the proof that what we helped or hurt affected others, and those effects echo through their own behavior to others still, for periods of time that cannot be fully perceived.
The part of Karma theory that can be seen is evidence that those parts are undeniable.
We can accept responsibility to do what we can for the good of all with what we have.
That much is on our hands.

“If you gain, you gain all. If you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then, without hesitation, that He exists.”
— Blaise Pascal —

“If you gain, you gain all. If you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then, without hesitation, that He exists.”
— Blaise Pascal —
Posted by: 777 | March 22, 2022 at 10:53 AM
😊 That’s what an on-the-fence-atheist friend of mine says sometimes.
Good quote.

@Spence
Oddly I’m feeling pretty OK. I really appreciate your words. For the first three days I was curled up in a fetal position. But now I’m like, this is sort of ridiculous. So, I know I’m going to be fine.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of karma, though. I sort of get it in the most basic sense—cause and effect. But fate and destiny don’t make much sense. There’s so much you can do to alter your “fate” that it seems unlikely anything is really set in stone.

H Brian, not sure where to pose a question to you, but thought here would be okay. I’ve spent some time recently reading Dr. Newton’s books on Past Life Regression. Fascinating stuff and not really convinced of what this really is, but with my background and upbringing in RSSB, it peaks my interest.
I went thru your blog history and found some references to this in a post from Nov 23, 2007: Grace & mercy or cause & effect? There are comments in this post by Manjit and william on PLR. On the face of it, there doesn’t appear to be leading questions and independent of each regression, they appear to have very similar /aligned “experiences”.
Do you have any input on whether this is just mumbo jumbo or is there some shred of credibility to this process? Curious on your thoughts.
Thanks!

Hi Sonya!
You wrote
“For the first three days I was curled up in a fetal position. But now I’m like, this is sort of ridiculous. So, I know I’m going to be fine.”
Whatever inside you moved from A to B is wonderful.

@Spence
Yesss 🤔 it truly is. 😊

From the depths of public humiliation in the scientific community, a courageous and determined scientist re-emerges with a bold and moving study.
https://www.statnews.com/2022/03/22/niels-birbaumer-brain-computer-interface-research/

Very interesting.
It isn’t clear to me, though, how they might validate something like that. A bit like the Ouijah board, isn’t it, if they haven’t yet tried it out on folks who can corroborate that what appears to have been communicated is indeed what was communicated?
Literal question, not rhetorical. I’m not suggesting it’s a fraud, only that I don’t quite see that they’ve actually done that essential validation. Probably I don’t see it because I know nothing about it beyond that article, that’s all. Should anyone know, including you Spence, then it’d be great if you could fill me in.
Any case, fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting.
(How’d SH communicate from atop his magic chair? Wiggle his eyebrows or something? —-But of course, he wasn’t quite “locked in”, so that last, while interesting, wouldn’t be apples to apples I suppose, and nor would validation be such an issue.)

Hi Appreciative!
Validation, internal validation of responses to yes and no questions, where the recorded response is distinct and consistent.
Example
Your name is John
Yes /no
You are x years old,
Yes/ No
I like football
Yes / no…
Hundreds of such verifiable questions with consistent and distinct responses and you build the validity that yes means yes and no means no.
Then new questions..
Would you like water?
Yes / no
Did you like the water we gave you?
Yes /no.
But as the article stated, just exactly how the patient was able to trigger the detector in his brain to respond distinctly and consistently no one knows.
This is really new and early research, but with incredible positive implications for medical science and treatment.
The researchers and this patient and their family are nothing short of courageous in their pursuit of this field, that could help so many others.

Hm yes, makes sense. Hadn’t thought it through, obvious now you spell it out. The validation I mean; the mechanism itself, as you say, and as the article mentions, is something they’ve yet to figure out.
Cool, thanks Spence.

From the depths of public humiliation in the scientific community, a courageous and determined scientist re-emerges with a bold and moving study.
https://www.statnews.com/2022/03/22/niels-birbaumer-brain-computer-interface-research/
Posted by: Spence Tepper | March 23, 2022 at 07:33 PM
It’s true, scientists haven’t quite figured out the exact mechanism of thought. They can’t stimulate the brain to think specific thoughts. We know that synapses fire in the brain and neurotransmitters do their thing but it’s not certain in the scientific community whether a thought precedes these chemical reactions in the brain or if the firing synapses create the thoughts. It’s a marvel.

But yes, no point belaboring this super depressing fact again and again, after having already made one’s point clearly once. Sorry; mustn’t have been very pleasant, coming on top of your personal troubles, that you’ve spoken of here. I trust you’ll be able to walk out of that latter healthier and stronger, and hopefully, eventually, happier, and with the realization that you’re well rid of what, basis what you say, is truly good riddance. Cheers, Sonya, and God bless.
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | March 24, 2022 at 11:38 PM
Hi AR,
No, it’s fine. Sobering, but fine—there are no victors in war.
I’m good too. Was planning a trip to Paris in October for my 50th birthday. He had said he was good with that and looked forward to it, but when I booked the tickets he freaked out and said he couldn’t plan for anything that far ahead. Then one thing led to another. I don’t know… I’m in a state of uncertainty but I’m not depressed or even sad. It’s strange. Sometimes the hardest part about any relationship ending is that feeling of rejection. I’m mean, you could be with someone you don’t even like that much but being rejected never feels good. That said, all of the sudden that part didn’t matter to me. You can’t base your self worth on another persons opinion of you.
I’m still going to Paris, though. 😊 I finally decided on a hotel today. I could go alone and still have a great time because I really love that city. Or I might take my niece. Not sure.
Sooo… now Putin supports the transgender community? 😂 👏 He is a mixed bag of nuts.
I support the LGBTQ community as well, but I don’t think people should base their whole identity on their sexuality… just sayin’

@ AR: [ I can’t figure out if you’re agreeing with me as far as our “scientific genius astrologer”, or disagreeing, or if, as you say “to some extent” … ]
* redirected from “Death is the only victor in Russia’s unjustified war against Ukraine”
I have no idea about the “genius” assessment. Like others though I’m
doubtful, just not completely dismissive. After all, not that long ago,
most saw “mindfulness” as a bizarre practice worthy of scorn if not a
danger to mental health itself. But even without a compelling scientific
explanation, it became popular when its health and cognitive benefits
became clear.
Astrology seems to satisfy some psychic need for personality insights
as well as predictive assurances about future events. Its record is
dubious but who can say an expert astrologer might not be far more
accurate. Besides, a dissatisfied astrology client might then transition
to a mindfulness path with a better track record and fewer charlatans.

https://www.frontnieuws.com/aantal-covid-gevallen-in-delhi-loopt-dramatisch-terug-na-massale-distrib
Covid starts to reduce after in take of Ivermectine in Delhi.
They disrtibute the Ivermectine pills.

S* and Brian
Brian has written that he will nort accept fake news.
The site and the information you again place here S. is considered by mainstream medical sources as FAKE and also OUTDATED.
https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/story/why-hcq-ivermectin-dropped-india-covid-treatment-protocol-1857306-2021-09-26
It says:
>>vermectin and HCQ were dropped from the clinical guidance after studies found that these drugs have little to no effect on Covid-related mortality or clinical recovery of the patient.< S*... you are like a person that KNOWING that the person she is going to visit doesn't like the color blue, choses to go there all in dressed blue, to "please her". . You should be ashamed of yourself.

I got vaccinated and still got Covid over Christmas. Some people haven’t been vaccinated and miraculously haven’t gotten Covid somehow like my oldest niece in High School who lives in a rural conservative town (and I can assure you she’s not wearing a mask all the time like she should).
It’s sort of random. HCQ might be in question, however the first time I got Covid (at the beginning of the pandemic) I noticed that when I took HCQ my symptoms diminished considerably for a few hours—I took it every 4 hours for a few dates.
You see, I have an autoimmune disease and take HCQ for that—once per day when I’m having flare ups. HCQ helps with this particular autoimmune disease (Sjogrens) even though medical research has no idea why. But doctors know that it helps based on many trials they just don’t understand exactly how it’s working to help patients with autoimmune diseases.
So, it definitely helped my immune system fight back at the virus. But that would necessarily work for everyone. Maybe just people with certain autoimmune diseases like RA, Lupus, Sjogrens.
That said, I can tell you that the vaccine is much safer for the body than taking HCQ. So, given a choice I would just get vaccinated. Seems logical.
Simple math.

@ Sonya
Vaccins in general do not protect against the contamination with a virus but to strengthen the immune system in such a way that when a person is infected with the virus, he or she will not end up in hospital and certainly not in an IC ward. And … THAT … is not only good news for the individual burt als for the overal healthcare in a country in order to prevend that their hospitals and IC’s are flooded with “heayvy” cases.
And … most people that are infected with this sars virus, have no noticeable symptoms. And if you life in a rural area with fewer inter-human contact the chances to get infected is lower and those in farmer families also have stronger and better developed immune systems then those living in crowded cities.
And .. wearing masks is NOT to protect the wearer unless it is a high grade medical mask. The mask that most people wear are to protect others from getting infected by those that are infected with or without their knowledge.

@um
Agreed.

@ S°
I love U and your truthfull comment very much
Also Toal Japan recovered in 10 days after doing
wat you referred you and sending the moderna dirt back
I thank U with a little photo of yourself
attending my marriage with Helga in 1972
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.nefkens.5
777
https://www.facebook.com/gerard.nefkens.5

@ 777
What would the snake-oil seller in the market place do without the gullible people that are out for a simple answer on a complex problem?
But .. snake-oil wil never become a working medicinal drug .. irrespective of how sophisticated the snake-oil seller promotes his ideas.
It is simple G. .. snake-oil is just what it is, snake oil and no power in the world can change it.

Thank you 777
Very sweet of you!!
The world has changed…not easy!!
<3
s*

777,
s*,
You were fabulously fashionable!

and Helga!

Thanks , both of you
Now official data give a modest 100 000 death by vacinations in the US &EU
This is nothing new
Pasteur had one one a million and 10 worse like lifelong migraine, autism
Increasing the expiration time for commercial reasons : Just multiply by 10
Do the count
But it was accepted the whole last century
No by added nano manipulation Do multiply by 100
Death is not the point tmho but 10 Million with lifelong Migraine etc
THAT is bad karma
Now think again about NOBEL PRIZE Ivermectine with 100% succes
, no single failure
… and Yes , I know BBJ left it to our own judgements take the risk
HE took the Jab – I hope he took the conventional Indian made category
because I have seen Him always together with Dear CharanJI in my own self
regularly , I guess He absorbs the karmas involved -I don’t see dirty spots on Him there
777

Never stop learning. Never stop growing.
Where Science and Religion Meet
https://youtu.be/p0_-7FmrDq8

It’s curious, you focus so much on the importance of meditation, with the intent of being in the now or the timelessness presence of the One. Yet you are obsessed with the past, attributing everything in your “current” state to the past—past lives, past events.
With a belief system and thought system so firmly rooted in the past, getting to the “now” or the timelessness of God requires a revelation which makes you realize that there is no past. And yet you put so many stumbling blocks in your way by dooming yourself to your past. There is truly a great obsession with the past in Sant Mat.

Dungeness, this is in response to your comment, referencing that study on the lunar effect on crime, in the Ukraine thread. I’m bringing this discussion here in order not to take that thread, already derailed by this discussion on astrology, any further off-topic.
I enjoyed going through the report you referenced. (You’ve linked the abstract, but clicking on it gives you the pdf with the actual details.) And, my interest piqued, I went ahead and accessed some more studies about this “lunar effect” (as it is called, the alleged effect of the phases of the moon on human behavior). I’ll go ahead and present the links to the reports/studies as well as brief synopses of what those links will lead you to, but in a separate comment immediately after this one, in order to make for easy reading. Meanwhile, here are my comments about this study, and more generally about the lunar effect thingy. I’m numbering my comments, and separating them out, to (hopefully!) make for easy (or at least, easier) reading.

So here’s the list of the studies I mentioned in my comment immediately preceding. I’m going to present the links, as well as a brief summary of what the linked material is about.
———-
https://www.newsweek.com/full-moon-september-2018-do-crime-rates-really-rise-full-moon-1135096
Three studies referenced by an Associate Professor in Criminology at Bond University, Australia, in a 2018 Newsweek article:
(1) What he refers to as one of the most significant studies looking at moon phases and linking this with behavior: a 1985 meta-analysis (a study of the findings of 37 studies). The paper concludes that there is no significant correlation.
(2) 2009 study in Germany covering the period 1999 to 2005, that sees no significant correlation.
(3) A 2016 study covering 13 US states for the year 2014. This study separately studies indoor and outoor crimes. There was no correlation as far as indoor crime, nor even total crime. However, they found some increase in outdoor criminal activity, which they tentatively attributed to the “illumination hypothesis” (greater movement of people during lighter nights, thus providing a bigger pool of victims).
———-
https://scitechdaily.com/researchers-analyze-lunar-effect-does-crime-increase-when-the-moon-is-full/
Article in SciTechDaily, 2019, reporting on two New York University studies, one covering the period 2014 through 2018 for Vallejo, California, and a larger study covering California and Ontario, Canada as well as Mexico (in order to make this study more broad-based).
In neither study was any significant correlation found between lunar phases and criminal activity.
———-
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/9/1/e022759
Lunar cycle in homicides: a population-based time series study in Finland (1961 – 2014).
Their finding was surprising. They did find an association, but that association was negative. That is, their data actually showed up a decline in criminality during full moons.
———-
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/criminal-defense/does-crime-increase-during-a-full-moon/
A 2019 article in a legal publication (or at least, a legal website) references 5 separate studies, as follows:
(1) A Los Angeles study for 2018 found no significant correlation.
(2) A Virginia City study, also covering 2018, found what they term “a minor uptick” on full-moon nights.
(3) A 2010 study covering five years for San Antonio. No significant correlation found.
(4) A 2005 Mayo Clinic study covering four years found “no association between full moon and increased patient contacts” in the clinic’s psychiatric emergency patients. (This study wasn’t specifically about criminality.)
(5) The article then refers back to the meta-study I’ve already referenced earlier (covering 37 separate studies). As noted, the variance wasn’t significant.
———-
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222199770_Bad_moon_on_the_rise_Lunar_cycles_and_incidents_of_crime
This is just an abstract, but the full pdf of the actual research report is linked here, and can be downloaded.
A five-year study for the alleged lunar effect on criminality in “a major southwestern US city”. There was no significant correlation.
———-
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/police-activity-and-full-moon
A 1979 US Department of Justice study covering “three medium-size law-enforcement agencies” for a period of 59 months.
Different kinds of crimes were studied separately: domestic, assault, disorderly conduct, drunkenness, robbery, breaking and entering, larceny, and shoplifting. Only for “breaking and entering” cases was there a small uptick on full moons, which the researchers tentatively attributed to the better moonlight on full moons; and for the other 7 categories, there was no correlation at all.
———-
https://www.cs.colostate.edu/~cs455/termProject2019Resources/Report/CS455-Term-Project-Axcell-Kielman-Muller.pdf
A study covering 18 years of crime in Chicago. Indoor and outdoor crimes were separately studied. There was no significant correlation for either.
———-
So: Seven reports/articles/papers that I’ve referenced here, that refer to thirteen studies. Thirteen studies, twelve of which were about criminality, and one that was not about criminality per se but about emergency psychiatric cases. And in nine of these thirteen, no significant correlation was found. In one, there was no correlation for indoor crime, but some increase for outdoor crimes, which the researchers attributed to the “illumination hypothesis” (greater movement of people during lighter nights, thus providing a bigger pool of victims). In one, there was indeed an increase in criminality during full moons. And in one, for which 8 kinds of crime were separately studies, 7 kinds showed no correlation; and only “breaking and entering did”, which the researchers attributed to the better visibility on full moon nights. Not to forget the study which showed not an increase but instead a decline in criminality during full moons.

🌙 🌝 ⭐️ 🌟 💫 ☀️ 🌞 🔮
I’m just gonna say it—Atheists aren’t the most imaginative people in the world.

@AR : [ The only way astrology can make any kind of sense, even assuming the lunar effect is a thing, is by invoking some kind of butterfly effect. Which is automatically an appeal to divinity (or maybe to time travel, or maybe to aliens), because no human agency today is capable of either formulating such insanely intricate relationships, nor of measuring all of those uncountable variables, and nor of carrying out those massive calculations. ]
Impressive rebuttal, Appreciative. It’s easy to cherry-pick the first study that confirms
bias as I’ve done in the case of a “lunar effect”.
I notice one of the skeptics’ articles is drolly titled “The Moon Is Acquitted of Murder in Cleveland”.
Still, there is some proven creature behavior oddity:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/what-is-the-lunar-effect-and-what-does-it-have-to-do-with-shark-attacks/ar-AASPoyN
So the “Butterfly Effect” analysts will need to do a little more moonlighting.

“Impressive rebuttal, Appreciative. It’s easy to cherry-pick the first study that confirms bias as I’ve done in the case of a “lunar effect”. …”
Thank you kindly, Dungeness.
And I’m glad that you appreciate how, just like a single study might suffer from using unrepresentative data and in that way end up with erroneous conclusions, likewise from a meta-research perspective it is possible to have a study that is otherwise methodologically sound, but likewise is unrepresentative of the larger body of work comprising all of the studies in some particular area. In other words, the study that you’d referenced, while methodologically sound, clearly suffers from two crucial shortcomings: First, the data they study clearly does not admit of extrapolation beyond that particular data set itself, which fact they don’t explicitly make clear; and second, in terms of the wild and unprofessionally extravagant speculation (about the gravitational pull of the moon) they put forward as the cause for the variance they observe, without clearly specifying that that is merely their fantasy/speculation, and is not actually based on the study itself, and nor is it scientifically grounded.
———-
” …Still, there is some proven creature behavior oddity:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/what-is-the-lunar-effect-and-what-does-it-have-to-do-with-shark-attacks/ar-AASPoyN
So the “Butterfly Effect” analysts will need to do a little more moonlighting.”
Dungeness, I appreciate your witty pun about moonlighting, but I’m afraid your meaning comes across as somewhat ambiguous. Perhaps you could clarify.
Do you present that shark reference merely as an interesting tidbit that is only indirectly related to our earlier discussion (and is not a direct continuation of the same implied theme that you’d put forward there)? In which case I appreciate it, and agree that such oddities are fascinating, and do indeed merit further study. Or do you in fact mean it as further implied support for speculations around the lunar effect on humans, and by extension for astrology — as you initial comment had been?
Because if it the latter, then I’m afraid my somewhat painstakingly referenced response to you has impressed you only with its form and not so much with its, as I thought, incontrovertible evidence and logic. (After all the shark reference, if it turns out to be indeed true basis wider study, can be easily explained via tides for example, and will not admit of extrapolation on to humans. But of course, if that’s just an interesting reference you bring up generally, then all good, and appreciated, absolutely. I ask only because how you’ve worded your subsequent comment about moonlighting makes your meaning somewhat unclear.)
To recap my earlier comment, I think it’s entirely clear now, unless you can present some persuasive counter-argument and/or evidence, that, firstly, astrology has nothing to do with the lunar effect and that it (I mean astrology) is unsupported unscientific irrational claptrap; and further that the lunar effect itself (on humans, that is, and in terms of “gravitational pull”) is no more than unsupported speculation with zero evidence or science to support it. I hope you agree with both those conclusions I draw.
(The butterfly effect comment of mine that you’ve quoted there was more a joke than anything else, and most certainly not central to or representative of my entire comment; and if indeed someone’s going to invoke the butterfly effect in support of astrology, literally not jokingly, then, to begin with, that would make it a complete non-starter in practice and in terms of actual application and utility on the ground; but more fundamentally because a large elephant, for instance, on the other side of the Earth, would probably have just as much “butterfly effect” as far as its gravitational pull as some star far far away, so that there’s no reason to assume that heavenly bodies have any especial gravitational effect on us (any more than large buildings or large animals or even large as well as not-so-large human beings walking around us or even far away from us but on the same planet).

I feel rather strongly about this because this isn’t just an academic question. It’s a matter of an unscrupulous man that lives off charlatanry; and what’s more, given that he’s based out of India, the man’s victims likely include poor people (as in really literally hand-to-mouth poor people, of the sort that people in the West will be unlikely to actually come across) who can ill afford to pay him for his bullshit and are likely paying him money that might have gone to buying food and medicine and shelter instead; and finally because he (and his friend and our fellow-commenter) have the cheek to put forward the claim that it is Pluto that is somehow tied up with this damn pandemic (so that it is but a step from that to claiming that magic amulets and suchlike are what help with Covid rather than vaccines and masking etc).
People having fun with astrology, using it like some kind of a parlor game, that’s a different matter, and I’ve no issue really with that sort of thing (speaking to and of you, Sonya!). And even when it comes to those who take this seriously, again I have sympathy for the ignorant that are gulled into this sort of thing. But the people who make use of these superstitions to profit personally, and especially from poor people who can ill afford it, as well as in case of such dire things like this pandemic? That is reprehensible, horrible, evil even.

@ AR :: [ Do you present that shark reference merely as an interesting tidbit that is only indirectly related to our earlier discussion (and is not a direct continuation of the same implied theme that you’d put forward there)? In which case I appreciate it, and agree that such oddities are fascinating, and do indeed merit further study. Or do you in fact mean it as further implied support for speculations around the lunar effect on humans, and by extension for astrology — as you initial comment had been? ]
Appreciative, agreed: the shark and lion oddities were “interesting tidbits”.
Even more so because they counterpoint the facile argument increased
lunar illumination accounts for more shark bites. Counter-intuitively lions
also hunt less in spite of the better lighting. Although in their case, better
lighting may be a liability since a lion relies on stealth and ambush.
So whether a person is a lunar effect debunker or believer, you’ll have
to untangle these puzzles to put forth convincing cases. That’s the
source of my torturous pun about “needing more moonlighting”.
Certainly, asserting “gravitational planetary pull affects the human
psyche” is unsupportable without that research.

“…whether a person is a lunar effect debunker or believer, you’ll have
to untangle these puzzles to put forth convincing cases…”
Agreed, there’s no end to these fascinating oddities, all of which represent potential areas for research.

And Spence
You write about the possibility of not provoking the president of Rusland and suggesting that the west makes itself guilty of what the president of Russia will do in the [near] future, if they do not act as you suggest.
First the president of Russia [POR] made the world understand that he was on a liberation and protection mission and not a war. Liberate the people of the Nazi regime.
When his liberation army was not received with flowers, he “realized” that the “disease” wwas not restricted to the regime, but was in the heart of the people.
So he concluded as others have done before him, that the population has to be purged,
Pol pot did So, Stalin an many others that should not be named even. As was done by the inquisition with fire and brimstone. People have to be safed from hell.
And what he is after, are only his own IDEALS, his oqn goals and NOBODY is going to stop him or have him change his mind…certainly not diplomates making common business as was done before the outbreak of WWII

Hi Um
You have misunderstood what I wrote about Russia and Putin. Because I was actually not addressing them. He is a person in a situation. He is not acting in a vacuum. All this focus on Putin creates a false image of an actor acting entirely independent of everyone else. Certainly you know that is impossible.
There are many players in this drama. And there is history out reactive events escalating up to today. Hamlet acts, tragically, from a misunderstanding. And then reacts thinking he must proceed. And we are fueling that misperception.
The escalation of nuclear weapons, US nuclear weapons shared with other nations thr NATO is part of that. It’s real. The escalation of NATO and US influence using their shared nuclear weapons is real. Pretending it isn’t simply adds to the problem. Just because you weren’t aware of this doesn’t change the facts.
Napoleon wrote that an army moves on its stomach. But the truth is an army and the nations involved in war move on ignorance.
And it is surprising how often people choose emotion and ignorance, and blame, over acknowldging a Truth that solves the problem. To acknowldge Truth, hatred must be relinquished, and converted to personal behavior change. That’s no fun, right?
The cost? To take responsibility.
That is the true cost of leadership and personal progress.
Those parts we can actually do something about, is all that matters.
Parts we carry some responsibility for.
The real danger is acting without responsibility, blaming Putin. We are then playing in his sandbox according to his rules.
We can change the scenario overnight, but refuse to do so. It costs us nothing to try.
The cost is to focus on the situation and its history, and the leaders involved in that context.
The solution, at least the next step to peace, is easy.

The offer is simple.. Bi-lateral disarmament during a cease fire until all Russian and US/Nato forces are gone from Ukraine as stage one, in exchange for an agreement to honor Ukraine’s sovereignty. And stage two, bi-lateral nuclear arms de-escalation of all NATO nations, and Russia, through an established and mutually accountable means of verification.
Until this offer is made, we are adding to the killing.
Once the offer is made, without other strings, there will be peace.
Prove me wrong. Prove Putin won’t stop no matter what we offer.
But until we make the offer, claiming Putin won’t stop is just war mongering rhetoric: A poor excuse to continue the killing.
One thing is certain, diplomacy is the only answer. More bloodshed will do nothing to stop Putin.
But if we make the offer, directly and fully, and Putin accepts the offer, then we shared some responsibility for this war. But doing so well have brought about peace and a path to lasting peace.

@ Spence
I am aware of the role of NATO and other forces in the west.
They certainly do agravate the situation or are an accuse for the president of Russia to act out his plans which he will do with or without the consent of others.
As said …. He has an IDEAL and he will act upon it.
History tells us that this type of idealists will go on to the bitter end AT ALL COSTS.
He is after the restoration of the greater Russia and will use the means to achieve it as all Russian rulers have done so before him.
There is one thing he might have underestimated and that his own people, his fellow Russians, have been exposed far to long to the western way of living and long for a chance as people did in the revolution.
And of course, it is not about the president of Russia .. he is just the focus point.

um, I’m both surprised and disappointed to see you repeatedly take this anti-scientific and irrational stance, in support of this astrology claptrap. Twice before I’ve let this slide, given my personal regard for you; but no more. I disagree vehemently with everything you’ve said here, and I’m going to clearly explain why.

@ AR
>> um, I’m both surprised and disappointed to see you repeatedly take this anti-scientific and irrational stance, in support of this astrology claptrap. Twice before I’ve let this slide, given my personal regard for you; but no more. I disagree vehemently with everything you’ve said here, and I’m going to clearly explain why.<< AR, you need not nor should you be suprised and disappointed if you could and/or would have understood what I wrote. I do understand, against the background of what you have written here in the past, that these things does not fit at all in your world view and does provoke these [emotional] re-actions so much so that you are forced to give up your regard for me. That is alright AR .. you are free to look upon me or down as you deem fit, they are your emotions, they are your values that you mentally attach to me. They speak of you, not of me. They only and just tell me how YOU are looking into the world, They speak of what is going on inside the "house of AR". and ... it should not supprise you ... as it is your house, you have to clean it . In reaction to the rest .... I did not write or suggest that indians are beyond the reach of [your] rationality and [western] science. I did not do it in answer to you, nor did I do it ever before to anybody else, in regard to any issue.... I simply could not have done so. That you accuse me of racism, because the appeal I made upon you to have understanding for the differences in culture, doesn't suit you, is up to you but to be honest I consider it as an projection. Let me close off with writing again that there is more to life that what science and rational thinking has to offer. Why these things upset you so much puzzles me, and mind you AR the answer to that question is not to be found in yet another, even more detailed, exposé on astrology, or the difference between how I react towards S*, Spence and Arun etc, no AR it is to be found inside yourself .. it is your upset, not mine or anybodies else and only you are resposible for it and nobody else. At the end of the road you are walking on, no matter how long it takes you, you will find that to be true. In those days remember how you reacted to me today and do not be hard on yourself, that you could have found out much earlier ... but .. do rejoyce then. Your worldview doesn't upset me, my should mine upset you? I am going to make myself a cup of coffee and wish you good luck with your endeavor to free yourself from these emotional bonds. There are many ways to look upon roses [astrology]. By the gardener, the botanist, the lover, the painter, the biologist, the seller, the writer and all others that i forgot. You can claim that there is just ONE way to look upon things, yours but that is not how the world does so, they do not want you to rob them from their rights to attribute meaning to a thing as freely as you do.

Dear um, I didn’t say, and I don’t mean, that your comment there has resulted in my losing regard for you. What I said, and meant, is that twice in the past, when you posted comments supporting this astrology BS, I either did not post my own reaction to your post, or did it only very gently even at the cost of not making my point clearly, out of my regard for you; but that this time I’m not going to hold back out of my regard for you. That is not to say that that regard is lost, but only that that regard will not, this time around, hold me back from responding to your comment properly and fully.
As for the rest, um, I’ve explained my POV clearly in my comment to you. I’m afraid your comment doesn’t really engage with any of it. I criticized arun marwah’s beliefs as well as his conduct in the other thread, and he, either not understanding my words, or else as excuse not to engage with them, did not respond either to my rational criticism of the beliefs he was peddling here, or my ethical criticism of his conduct in using the Covid as well as the killings in Ukraine as hooks in order to promote and sell his friend’s book on astrology, and instead took the easy way out by personalizing the discussion with content-free posts, and calling into question my upbringing and my sanity. Please don’t do the same — that is, please don’t just see my words as a string of things that I’m saying against you, but please engage with my actual words, um. Please read the actual content of my earlier comment, as well as this one (which I’ll number out to make for easy comprehension).
(1) I don’t call you a racist to somehow get back at you for disagreeing with me. I’d NEVER, EVER do that to anybody, and least of all to you! But you’re clearly suggesting that the rationality that one might expect from a “Westerner”, is something one should not expect from an Indian, and that “ne’er shall (East and West) meet”. You may not have meant it that way, but think about it: Isn’t that condescending to Indians, and to that extent racist?
(2) There isn’t MY rationality and WESTERN science, as opposed to some other kind rationality and some other kind of science. There is just the one kind. Anything that isn’t rational is irrational, and anything that isn’t scientific scientific is unscientific, regardless of the ethnicity of the person concerned. Of course, this is where factuality is concerned. Sure, with music for instance, or literature, you can have different kinds of music, and sure, people need to immerse themselves in different kinds of music and literature to properly appreciate such; but not where factuality is concerned. When someone claims that the Covid pandemic is a hoax, or that the vaccine is hoax, or that Covid is caused (or its course foretold) by the movements of Pluto, or that wars are fought and future events transpire according to the position of Pluto in some constellation, then that is 100% irrational, 100% unscientific, and 100% WRONG, regardless of whether the person making that claim is Dutch, or Belgian, or American, or Indian. Ethnicity and culture have nothing to do with rationality and science. Which is not to disregard culture and tradition; they have their own place, but they don’t make their own alternative versions of rationality and science.
(3) Every time I bring up astrology, you tell me mine isn’t the only way to look at things, and you insist I look at the psychology of the person (arun marwah, in this case) who is putting forward this claim about astrology. Well then I ask you, yet again, why on earth you don’t do the same yourself when s* and 777 try to propagate anti-vaxx disinformation. Why do you THEN insist that YOUR way is the only way, and why do you object to their propagating their agenda on here?
(4) I don’t object to arun marwah’s privately believed superstitions, let me make that clear. But I do object to his promoting that poisonous irrationality (I mean about astrology), just as you object when s* and 777 promote their poisonous irrationality (I mean about Covid). And I do it for the same reason. Because to the extent that people in general buy these arguments, to that extent they will be hindered from taking the correct actions necessary in their situation, and thereby harm themselves and others. If he were to simply keep his beliefs to himself why should I mind? What I object to is his promoting to others this poisonous bullshit, just like you yourself object to people promoting bullshit about Covid.
(5) Finally, there is an additional element here that I find particularly loathsome. In this case we have a person, this Lobo, who himself profits, financially, from this irrationality, and at the cost of the gullible and the ignorant. Further, this book of his — that he has published for commercial reasons, in order to benefit financially — is being promoted here, callously and cynically, by taking advantage of this discussion on Ukraine. In two threads about Ukraine, including one with those gruesome pics of the dead, we’ve had this cynical promotion of this book, unmindful of the horror of the war itself, and derailing discussion on the war and the attendant horrors. That’s … I don’t know, I find such rank cynical opportunism and such callous salesmanship disgusting.
———-
That said, you’re right about one thing, um. I am indeed getting emotionally involved in this discussion, and way more than is my wont. I know why I’m disgusted, and that is entirely justified IMV; but absolutely, my getting so very invested in that disgust, that is most certainly not very …I don’t know, wise, good, healthy, whatever.
To that extent you are right, and I will indeed take a step back. After all I’m no Atlas, and I do not carry the weight of the world on my shoulders; there is no need for me to pretend such a burden, and to suffer its consequences. Hell, this isn’t my blog after all, and I’m no more than simply a looker-on. So sure, I appreciate that piece of advice from you, and I will indeed take a step back in order to disengage my emotions from this issue.
Again, all of this is not in any way to say or to imply that I’ve lost my regard for you; but it is, certainly, to let you know that I disagree with your POV, and to spell out to you why. While like I said I’ll be taking a step back awhile — to disengage, that is, in simple terms, to cool the hell down! — and so I’m not going to be commenting here for a few days now, but I’ll be happy to check back on any comment you might want to post here. Cheers, old friend.

Hi Um
You wrote
“He is after the restoration of the greater Russia and will use the means to achieve it as all Russian rulers have done so before him.”
Every powerful nation has its bullies.
But I think he is also a pragmatist and will accept a federation of states, so long as Russia is respected and without threat.
So long as there is escalation of arms pointed to Russia, nuclear arms, this escalation does, pragmatically, require some action. And he has been unable to get any movement from the West on their escalation. Real diplomacy in this situation demands more than complaining and subterfuge, so it’s outside of his strengths. But we can take the lead and help.
Had we offered another way out, as he has been patiently asking for years, he might have and might still take it, since diplomacy can accomplish the same thing.
I don’t actually think Putin wants the headache of more nations to deal with. But I know for a fact that he does not want the growing threat of nuclear proliferation that risks the very existence of “Mother Russia”.
The world is actually a federation of states today and diplomats who are successful regard it as such.
“The world has become a neighborhood before it has become a brotherhood.”
Lyndon Johnson
But a great diplomat always approaches it as a brotherhood.

@ AR
🙂
Let me only adres the point you make aboiut the way I discriminated between S*, Spence and others. I will do it with somethin persona, something of the past and you have to grasp the import of it.
Our mother, peace be upon her souls if she and one, was a very devoot person. She used to pray for the welfare of all near and dear to her. Her eldest son, for reasons I came never to know was and atheist and rabid critic of the clergy. He often would create arguments with our mother for what he believed to be nonsense, to say te least.
When I would be around at those occasions i would draw the attention from my brother, which, by the way I highly respected and considered a “profound thinker”, to our mother, to what praying was for her and away, from what [theoretical] meaning he attributed to praying.
We shared other wise many criticism towards the clergy and to the way, the different people that attented the services in the church, “used” their faith in public and we often had a good laugh about the differences between ” talking and walking” as we were raised in a family were social status had no value at all and where the character of the person was the only thing that mattered.
It is the intend, AR
If a person likes you he or she might give you a bouquet of flowers to express it
bur AR …
Not all that will give you flowers in your life will do it because they like you.
To know the difference AR, I know , i know it is a tricky affair, one has to read between the lines, read the body language. Tricky as one can also be wrong as to use the dictum grandma … little boy, you can see the faces, the heads of other human beings but you can not look inside of them.
So to “prove” that a person has other then kind intends in offering flowers, is difficult if not impossible. So in the day to day circumstances it is better to keep mum but a truth not expressed will be visible for the trained eye and that makes me often feel uncomfortable in relation to people that are dishonest … dishonesty AR … is one of the endless amount of things that are beyond the grasp of science and logic thinking.
You love clear cut things and I am refring to the obscure and i do understand that it is not something you like and/or are used to.
You draw the attention to what you supose to be ill will of Arun, the writer of that book etc. I never reacted to that point neither positive nor negative but I wanted to draw your attention away to your fellow human beings and why they do certain things, things that often have no meaning in my life, social class, or culture but does have it in theirs. I do love to understand it without the need to agree or disagree … after all it is theirs.

@ Spence
If there will be a tribunal, no judge will be interested in hiding behind “being provocated”.
If there is a sentence it will be for genocide etc.

My brother died suddenly in a tragic car accident today. He was 52. I’m not looking for sympathy. I just want to point out how fragile life is and how quickly everything in your life can change in the blink of an eye. I am eternally grateful for having had such a special person as my brother. And my heart is absolutely broken.
Take the time that you have to show the important people in your life how precious they are and how much you love them.
I’ve got a hole in my heart.

*hole in my heart (a Rick Springfield song 🙃)

Sonya,
Very sorry. When it rains, it pours.

Sorry to hear of your brother’s death, Sonya. My daughter is 50. I visualize her living for several decades longer. But like you said, we never know what life will bring. Yes, life is fragile.

Sorry to hear of your brother’s death, Sonya. My daughter is 50. I visualize her living for several decades longer. But like you said, we never know what life will bring. Yes, life is fragile.
Posted by: Brian Hines | April 06, 2022 at 09:01 PM
Thanks, Brian…. I turn 50 this year and I have always thought 50 would be a pivotal year, but not like this.
My mother was shockingly stoic but my father whaled for hours when he heard the news—that’s what really broke my heart. My dad is a stereotypical Leo and he kept going on about how a parent should never have to outlive their child—which I agree with. It was so surreal.
More than anything, this evening made me realize how surreal this life is. It’s almost scary how life can completely turn upside down in a single moment. As my dad kept saying, life is so fragile…
My face is so swollen from crying that it hurts. And I need to put ice on it…
I really do appreciate your sympathies—I really do. It means so much. When someone you really love dies, it means so much to have family and friends—it’s everything. It’s what helps you make it through. Otherwise, it’s just too much too deal with on your own.

Just saw your post, Sonya, about your brother. My condolences.

Hi Sonya:
We are fragile beings. Life is a terrible, horrifying situation at times, and a joy at others.
Sawan Singh once wrote that life is like a paper bag. A few drops of water and it is easily destroyed. And all the priceless moments, gone….
But not really gone.
Grief is natural, and must take it’s own course. Every stage of it is sacred. But we don’t move through the stages of grief in any order. There are moments of calm, days of calm after the initial storm of sadness, followed by fear, followed by the numbness of incapacity to even stand or think. And then grief again, or sadness, or anger. There is no order, and moving through one stage doesn’t mean it won’t return. But with each return, there is greater depth, meaning and understanding. These stages are a gift, however painful, because moving through them we become who we were meant to be, more mature, more balanced, more understanding, and greater resource to each other. Your brother has passed away. Your marriage ended, now you are moving through your journey into something greater within.
And then, there will be re-emergence. The day will come when your brother, and all he meant and did and represented is inside of you, alive. With each memory, you won’t think “He said that so long ago.” You will just remember it as if it just happened. As if you and he were children, moments ago. There won’t be time, there won’t be birth and death, just the moments you shared.
And in that you will find peace and happiness. And your brother will be good company.
And in the acceptance of his company, as always part and parcel of who and what you are, you will become whole again.

Hi Um:
You wrote:
“If there will be a tribunal, no judge will be interested in hiding behind “being provocated”.
If there is a sentence it will be for genocide etc.”
If a tribunal creates such ill will that the war is escalated, it has not served justice at all, but rather fueled injustice.
And if there is just an agreement that ends killing, only an agreement between Ukraine, Russia, NATO and the US that ends the war, honors Ukraine’s sovereignty, and begins a path back to nuclear de-escalation, there may be no tribunal at all.
The dead are gone, however unfair it all is.
But a future of peace and partnership is all that matters. And that never arises at the point of a gun. Not so easily.
It is very, very hard work to turn enemies into friends.
But on a shrinking planet of shrinking resources we have no other options.

@ Spence
Do not stumble over the word “tribunal” …what i wrote had something to do with what you had to see about the attitude of the nato.
So be it.

Thank you, umami. 🙏
Thank you, Brian. 🙏
Thank you, Appreciative Reader. 🙏
Thank you, Spence. 🙏
I can’t believe this life altering event happened less than 36 hours ago. It feels like a lifetime of tears have flowed since we received the news.
I know I’ll get through this. I do know that. However, I also know that my world will never be the same again. I will never be the same again.
In ways that are difficult to explain, I realized that my older brother is half of me… perhaps half of my ego is a better way of putting it. No one shaped my psyche more than he.
Again, I do believe that my family and I will get through this. I know that we will get to a place of peace once again. I know that one day we’ll be able to share all the stories about my brother and be able to smile and laugh. It just takes time.
However, this life feels completely surreal to me now. Nothing feels “real”. I don’t even know quite how to put it into words—but the world feels temporary in every since of the word. Very little seems as important as it used to. The gravity of life’s demands has diminished quite considerably because it’s just so fragile, fading and fleeting.
I sometimes wonder if I shared a past life with my brother and what it might have been like. I wonder why and how he was such a huge part of who I am. And I am utterly amazed that I never fully recognized this before. Karma I guess…
Thank you for your kind words. Every time someone calls or stops by or sends a message or brings food, flowers—anything—it helps sooo much. Normally I like to be alone when I’m dealing with difficult problems. But not this time. Every kind word is like a breath of fresh air and a reminder that you will get through this—you will be ok again.

Dear Sonya,
So sorry to hear this sad news about your brother…
Take extra good care of yourself…
Peace <3
s*

A world famous architectural dream of a creative and sustainable future utopia from the 70’s is gone…
https://www.digitaltrends.com/news/tokyos-once-futuristic-capsule-tower-to-be-torn-down/

Great post, Brian. Lovely homily. (Using that term merely as a descriptor, and without any negative connotation, and absolutely without the slightest irony or sarcasm intended.)
Absolutely, calm, equipoise, is something worth cultivating, both for one’s own sanity and peace of mind, and also as a means of better functioning within the world. And agreed, such calm and equipoise has limited application if it stems from, and/or results in, a general withdrawal from life, in as much as such a course embraces only the former and not that latter: it would appear to be ‘better’ to have one’s equipoise embrace both ends rather than just the one. And finally, absolutely, a slowing down is what directly contributes to that equipoise, especially when one starts to find oneself overwhelmed with one’s reaction to what one sees and hears and experiences without, even if that means a (brief, temporary) withdrawal/respite from whatever it is one had been engaged with, agreed.
Great post, nicely formulated and spelled out.

Oops, wrong thread. This was meant for the “Calm Acceptance” thead. I had both threads open, in different tabs, and ended up posting to the wrong one. I’ve copied and posted this on to the correct thread.

@AR
Thanks for the link. 😊
My brother’s funeral service and burial were beautiful. I could add a lot more to it than that. It was sort of an elaborate ceremony—he was a 33 degree Mason and a Shriner so they had two separate ceremonies and then then two ministers. It’s kind of complicated.
Anyway, it was peaceful. Of course, now that the ceremonies are over I find myself a little sad when I don’t hear people talking about him all the time. It’s like I just want to talk about him to keep him alive. The grieving process is a very strange thing.
Overall I’m at peace with it. Just miss him.
Today we went to the funeral of the friend who was in the Truck with him and that was depressing because his friend was supposed to get married this weekend. So many hearts are broken.
One of the Master Masons at my brother’s service gave a 20 minute recital that was written so beautifully. He recited the entire thing from memory which was quite impressive. I wish I could get a copy of the actual writing. They believe in a soul but don’t use too many specific words to describe God. It could be used for almost any faith—a beautiful poem about death, as strange as that sounds.
There were some odd things about the accident and conflicting reports. However, I’m not going to obsess over that. He’s gone but not forgotten. Forever in our hearts.

Hi Sonya!
Is there is any way to get that recital? I would love to read it.
The world is starved for insight. Any, from anywhere, even a funeral, is welcome food.

Looks like GSD stopped making videos.
I don’t blame him.

You still were watching GSD’s videos till this week? Hooked up yet untied till death do us part. If only love wasn’t as thorny a path as its destiny is designed to be.

Very touching, Sonya. It’s wonderful that you’ve been able to find peace with what’s happened.

Today was the best day I’ve had in decades. I took my eldest niece to the University that she’ll be attending this fall. We signed up for all sorts of programs that will help her in her pre-vet medicine program studies.
I guess that’s what joy is—helping others reach their full potential. It’s time to pass the torch.
It was such a beautiful day and we had so much fun. I’m just so grateful.

Brian, perhaps you can write an article on the bullshit of dharma transmission.
Just a suggestion…

“Things keep changing faster and faster and we keep keeping up because we are afraid to die.”
V Sauce
https://youtu.be/zHL9GP_B30E

@ AR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ1I1mafHZM
It is not that easy to follow the questions and answers but there is a “funny” moment around 30 minutes, were a man expresses his frustration, because this lady had an spontaneous enlightenment and he he not and that he cannot find what to do …
Hahahaha … it is a pity the sound quality is so miserable
Some one pointed at this lady with the core message that whatever is there is all ready there and for that reason there is nothing one can do to find it. It is there behind the mind and the mind is not made to find it.
The crow is born a crow, live as such and die.There is no way for a crow to find a solution on how to be come a crow … he just happens to be one

@AR
https://yolandeduran.com/en/yolande-en/

Hi, um. *waves*
Haven’t had time to see those two vids yet, but I will, absolutely, and I’ll comment back after I’ve done that. Cheers.

Hello, um.
Watched that video talk finally. It was cool.
To start with it was kind of weird, right? The first quarter of an hour or so, she just sits there quietly, doing nothing, saying nothing. Not even meditating, I mean to say. …But I could sense a certain …collectedness, if I may call it that, a certain centeredness… to her silence. And in a way I liked that she wasn’t miming the deep-absorbed-Buddha-slash-Guru all absorbed in perfect stillness, but merely stayed her own normal self.
Yep, that specific portion you refer to — it was 25 minutes into the talk — was both interesting and funny. Yes, what she said in response, although like the rest of her talk she kept it simple and free of detailed discourse — all she said amounted to a rather endearingly simply “I don’t know!” — but I agree, her approach and her own personal understanding appear to reflect what you say here, and indeed what you’ve said in the past as well, about this sort of thing.
I’d never heard of this lady, actually, this Yolande Duran. Her website, that you’ve linked to, seems intriguing. I’ve bookmarked it, and I’ll check it out, and some more of her talks, later on.

@ AR
The secondlink that was posted here was an 30 min interview. Did you see it?
I did search the internet but there is not much to be found in English.
“Silence heals” the sole book in English is only available second hand for almost 150 Dollars.
It seems that the communication with the world is disconnect. After all she is not a teacher .
What she shares with the world resembles what John Butler has to say, who is still active on you tube. Although he focuses more on what one can do to get to that same state he has reached and less of what that state is for him as a personal experience.
What matters to me is the division between those that have [spontaneous} experiences and those that have heard of it and try to force it upon themselves using this or that practice … not to forget, those that after having such an experience as a gift, “opened their own shop” selling this or that practice.

Happy International Nurses Day! In 1855 Supernurse Florence Nightengale designed this unique polar chart to illustrate the needless deaths from war. Mind Blown.
https://nightingaledvs.com/from-the-battlefield-to-basketball-a-data-visualization-journey-with-florence-nightingale/

“@ AR
The secondlink that was posted here was an 30 min interview. Did you see it?”
……….No, um, I didn’t find any video there. Your second link led to her website, the English version of it — that I’ve bookmarked for browsing through at leisure later on.
———
“It seems that the communication with the world is disconnect. After all she is not a teacher .
What she shares with the world resembles what John Butler has to say, who is still active on you tube. Although he focuses more on what one can do to get to that same state he has reached and less of what that state is for him as a personal experience.
What matters to me is the division between those that have [spontaneous} experiences and those that have heard of it and try to force it upon themselves using this or that practice … not to forget, those that after having such an experience as a gift, “opened their own shop” selling this or that practice.”
……….I’ve mixed thoughts about this, um. On the one hand, in some measure I agree with you. On the other hand, I have some reservations about your POV as well — expressing which reservations will be a somewhat involved business, because I don’t want to do that lightly and half-assedly, so that I’ll pass on that for the time being. Clinchingly, and on the gripping hand, though, here’s what I find just a bit ironic: Even though she’s communicating that this cannot be shared, nevertheless the only way you and I know about her message is precisely because she’s been sharing it. And what’s more, as her website clearly says, apparently she’s given up her prior career and has taken up this sharing thing as a full-time job now. Kind of ironic, that.
Now don’t get me wrong: I don’t mean this as a criticism of Yolande. She’s a sweet old lady, and she seems perfectly sincere and above-board. Nevertheless, I wanted to point out the irony inherent in her communicating the message, and what’s more spending all her time communicating the message, that the message cannot be communicated. (Although, caveat: I don’t know enough about her message, yet, to know if her message does not also incorporate other elements, so take that as a qualified irony!)
This apart, I do have a conceptual, and more rigorous, criticism of this POV, as well. Once again, to stave off any misunderstandings: I appreciate this POV, and I do find merit in it. But I think I espy an obverse side to the coin as well. But like I said that’s kind of involved, and, not wanting to do this half-assed-ly, I’ll leave that more detailed (as it promises — threatens? — to turn out) discussion for another day.
And meantime, I’ll browse around a bit more in that website of hers. First look, I like what she’s got going there.

@ AR
>> ..No, um, I didn’t find any video there. Your second link led to her website, the English version of it — that I’ve bookmarked for browsing through at leisure later on.<< If i go to that site and scroll down the page, I do find an video. And .. you have already enough at your hands in debating spence etc.... this issue was just to bring something to your attention... other wise it is of no importance.

Are you sure you’re using the same link, um? I just went back and checked that link one more time. In fact, it’s open right now, that link (https://yolandeduran.com/en/yolande-en/), in the adjoining tab on my computer. There’s further links there, on her website, that lead to Books, and Blog, etc — that I haven’t explored so far — but there’s no video directly on that page anywhere.
Clearly that video impressed you, for you to have shared it with me; so that I’d like to check it out, absolutely. I’m not sure how it transpires that you’re seeing it there but not I, so I’ve no clue how to directly address this; but as a workaround, is the vid hosted on the Youtube server? In which case perhaps you could right-click and copy that link, the link to the video that you see there, and post it to me here (much like the earlier Youtube talk you’d linked to)?

@ AR
Maybe it is due to a so called regional block
Anyway here is the YOUTUBE link for the same interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFzFMF8zCfM

Yep, got that, thanks um. I’ll check it out.

Just listened to it, um.
Fascinating. Loved it.
(This one was her experience, and her POV, distilled, as it were. This talk moved me, as the other one had not.)
Thanks for the recommendation.

@ Ar
You are welcome …:-)

Not now, um, but afterwards, after I’ve got my thoughts together, I’d like to put together my views on this, and also my thoughts about what you keep saying about the immutability of the nature of people, as far as this sort of thing.
Meanwhile, though, some quick bullets:
1. Loved this talk.
2. I’d like to know your thoughts about her. Unstructured, anything you’d like to say.
3. Do you think she bears out the central idea about immutability, that you often talk about?
4. Personally, she reminded me of Ashtavakra. Have you read Ashtavakra, and do you agree? That is, did that similarity occur to you as well?
5. I note again, with some amusement, that she’s working hard to spread the message, and talk far and wide, about the silence that apparently cannot be talked of. I also note, again with amusement, that she’s very much set up shop. It was a 27 minute video; and when, at 24 minutes in, she started flogging her wares, that’s when I stopped the vid.
6. The above (#5) does not detract from her. Well okay, it does, but not too much. She’s a sweet old lady, and I like her. And let’s not forget, Ashtavakra walked home with a bunch of cows. That’s what the Ashtavakra Gita is, after all, let’s not forget: Ashtavakra flogging his wares to Janaka. It would be an ad hominem fallacy to see in her commercialization of her experience a failing in or a criticism of those wares. But still, it does give you pause, and occasion for some (just a wee bit cynical) amusement.
7. To reiterate again, especially given my #5 and #6: I liked her, and loved her talk, this second one.

@ AR
Listening to her does not arise any thought or emotion….I just see and hear her talking….when she speaks she is not addressing anybody or she speaks impersonal
This is the first time I hear the word ashtavarka.
As far as I understand, she had nothing to say about the immutability of human nature..
She pointed at the existence of an state of consciousness, that exists in every human being and the fact that she became aware of its existence.
Probably, she would never have gone public if she was not “asked” by her environment
Sometimes people speak because they are invited to speak. Why would somebody that has found peace of mind, say to others “do as I do”??

True, not once does she say “Do this, that and the other, and you’ll experience this too.” Every time people ask her how she got there, in these two talks, she always answers, simply, honestly, “I don’t know.”
Nor does she spins fairy tales, even when prompted. No reincarnation, no life after death. And no quarter from death, either, as magical fallout of an experience like this.

@ AR
Where to start answering and how to say it?!
Often i feel handicapped by the use of language and concepts as all concepts have their roots in the material world we live in, a world we process with the mind.
So an indigenous Indian from the amazon, on explaining to his people what he experience in the civilize world, is restricted to the use of words that all have their roots in the amazon. So what he says, is correct and not correct in the same time.
People that have inner experiences face the same problem. Human language is by necessity not fit for describing inner experiences.
It is not just the lack of concepts and words but also the structure of language that makes it difficult to communicate an experience. The laws of grammar that are used my not at all fit to describe the workings of an inner experience.
The one that has the experience shares the world of the one that does not and the ne world he has entered into but that is not so the other way around. For that reason relations have been broken up after one person having an say NDE experience. For the one that had the experience, nothing has changed what he allready knew only something was added but those around him might face the feeling that this person is no longer the one as the have known him, he changed. That can be very painfull, so much so that people that loved and do love one another are forced to divorce.
Now back to the lady and your reaction on what yo heard and saw.
I do share in general what you wrote about the feelings and thoughts you have.That said we are confronted with what i would like to call the “perfect living teacher” problem or syndrome. We, the onlookers, the ones that share with such a one only THIS world and the whole of language that is connected to it and can not but use the word “perfect” to this world we share. But in this world, those that have these experiences are like all of us, they are NOT perfect … better said … they stil remain the person they were born, the physics of it and also the mental make up and things we can describe as personality. …a born crow remains a crow irrespective of his inner experiences.
In order to understand why she, steps into the public domain, in order to share her experience, i would have to sit with her and have some coffee and sweets. It is and it must be related to the personality and her life as it was BEFORE her experience
You see AR, personally I have the feeling that she can do whatever she wants in this world, remaining hidden and mum or sell her experience in seminars etc, and be her [newly found] inner self as the outer world is no longer the outer world … or better said the “relation” with the outer world and even her own personality and body.
And .. naturally as she expresses herself without the use of this or that formal mystical, religious or philosophical teaching it is easier to hear what she says without being triggered and to look upon it with an open mind.
She has nothing to defend so nobody can attack her.
defending and attacking is solely in the domain of those that share with one another the HEARSAY. They are the ones that without having an inner experience themselves, fight with one another about how the words of the mystic have to be understood, they are the thieves,, the ones that run away with what was given initially for free.
And … if I would have such an experience, I to would probably act as they all have done, … mystics have to live in this world as they were, like all of us human beings.
Some come with sweet character and others might be the opposite.
It is strange AR to know things that one should not know … it is like having money on the bank account without understanding how it came to be there, without having stolen it, without having worked for it, without having received it as a gift in heritage.

@AR
On a site dedicated to Ramana Maharshi it says in regard to “practice”::
>>All that is necessary is to surrender yourself completely to the Guru, to surrender your notion of ‘I’ and ‘mine>Has not Bhagavan said that surrender and Self-enquiry are the only two ways to Self-Realisation<< Yolande Duran on answering several "seekers" advises them: "to trust the power of silence" All these advises boil down to the personal circumstances and themental make up of the person that received the experience. We do not have "guru's" in the west and the relation to whatever teacher we have in this part of the world, excludes the practice of "surender to the guru" ... we are not taught from childhood on to trust other people, not even our own parents. But the "practice" demands "to give in" or "to surrender" ...OR...if that is not possible .... the approach of others in the wake of Ramana Maharshi .... to realize that there is nobody there that can surrender. Both options were not open to Yolande Duran ...so .. after having her initial experience ... her "practice" is to surrender, to have faith or to trust the power is able to open up as it had done to her when the time was ripe. In fact surrender is the key word in all practices ... even those mantra schools. we have all our changes of mood .. we are aware of them but we have not the power to create them. It is like sleeping. Nobody has the power to sleep at will but we all have the possibilities to create the conditions for the sleep to overwhelm us. So meditation as a practice does not open the door at best it creates conditions. We have not the power to change or bring about changes of consciousness at will.. if we had we would chose to be happy all the time not withstanding the circumstances of life ... only those that have surrendered to life ... Oh lord not my will but your will, wil be done. Blessed are those that received that gift of life.

Hi Um
You wrote
“In order to understand why she, steps into the public domain, in order to share her experience, i would have to sit with her and have some coffee and sweets. It is and it must be related to the personality and her life as it was BEFORE her experience.”
It’s not too difficult to place her comments in a context. She spoke of finding a space beyond thought.
That’s a common report of long term meditators. The perception if immense physical space that is completely separate from a train of thought. There is thought and there is awareness.
In meditation we begin to separate the two, so that the consciousness, in a calm place, can see the train of thought in real time, as an observer. And then there is the experience of immense light and immense space…
“If thine eye is single, the body is filled with light.”
This is a recurring event, and a stage of meditation. Not uncommon at all among devout meditators in any number of devotional or long term practices.
And it is, as Sawan Singh pointed out, replicable. He said spirituality is like a lightening storm, while meditation was like an electric generator we can use to replicate, on a smaller scale, the same thing.
One can argue about the experiences that are rarer and fewer, beyond this.
But this is a very initial stage, a rudimentary and universal observation from any sincere effort at devotional, meditation practice.
You can read similar writings as the results of meditation and devotional prayer in the writings of monks and nuns of different faiths, and actually experience it for yourself.
It’s just a step, and part of reality we can witness, not specific to any particular religion or practice.
But practice is the general method to get there. And there is a very initial step. My Master called it the eye center… Just a place of focus and peace, but that peace, light, silence, and inevitable sound are all part of that.
Why report the experience? Why did anyone report their experience, give voice to their personal experience? It’s what human beings do, use their voice. Not hide or feel shame or pride. Just own who they are and what they are without apology.
Very natural.

@ Spence
You are not right, there is a huge difference between what she speaks off and that with what you compare it but beyond this statement there is nothing I have to say..
When yo can at will sleep and change the swings of mood and offer that as an practice to others, there would be a step towards a makeable world.
If you would read the literature of RSSB properly, you would find that “no amount of meditation” would open the door. … it is all his grace … hahaha

Hi Um
We always seem in disagreement, though we are both initiates.
But I think it reflects looking at what I wrote from a one perspective that is not actually comprehensive.
You see our Master, Maharaji, and his Master, Sawan Singh, and all the saints including Swami Ji, and modern saints such as Iswar Puri and Baba Ji spoke and wrote about the variety of different practices underpinning different religions as methods to make personal progress on this inner journey. And all of them are legitimate to the extent that some progress is made in each. I refer you to Sar Bachan which goes into great length on this point. The only difference is where people choae to stop, in ignorance, thinking they had reached the penultimate when they had not.
Not everyone is going to get to the same place at the same time.
Not everyone who goes to the gym is going to achieve the same level of results. There is much out of our hands. But most of the changes and stages will be similar, certainly at the early stages.
But go to the gym. Practice. Seek to refine your practice. Find a good trainer, when you are serious.
It’s that simple.
If you take a closer look at what you wrote you will see that those inspired to do so will do so. They may be inspired by ancient writings, or a personal relationship, or their own inspiration from prayer.
That is reach person’s journey. Just as many Saints sought to learn about a spiritual path and practice, and often passed through more than one to find their destined sacred practice, so we can and should honor the truth that we all have a part to play and our personal journey.
If God is setting all this in motion, then He is responsible for my optimism, your nihlism, and the variety of responses from any number of different readers.
What Yolande speaks of in her terms is quite common among experienced meditators.

Hi Um
I understand your view that there is a wide variation between what you heard Yolande say and the Path of The Masters.
As Swami Ji wrote in Sar Bachan, there is zero difference in the inner path at the early stages of nearly every form of meditation and devotional practice.
It’s the same path.
Physiologically, it’s the same equipment. Same experiences resulting from practice.
How far we choose to go is up to our own inner discrimination, like level of ignorance, and the good fortune of good guidance.
Swami Ji, in Sar Bachan writes eloquently and extensively on this very point.
Everything Yolande experiences most long term meditators, especially those using a devotional practice, experience.
And of course like every form of conditioning and experience, every form of learning, we are to one degree or another changed

One more point Um.
There comes a point in meditation when every thought alters reality.
That is both wonderful and horrifying.
People who like parlor tricks get a whiff of that sort of thing and feel powerful and, well, all the rest.
People with power in this world are very close to that.
But in spirituality, the idea is to have zero power. To shed ourselves off all that. To go into the basement of the building, to be with the bricks in the basement, at the bottom, even the foundation under the bricks, even the dirt under the foundation, not on top of the building.
Then we are happy to hide in a fold of our Master’s robe, owning our status as ignorant children. We can be children pretending to be adults or we can just be children who are children.
We can be no more than children, on that point I concur, if that is what you meant.

@ Spence I did not write or suggest about such an variation .. quite the opposite.
Bhakti Yoga, Guru mat, sant mat and in the end shabd yoga is all about surrender and nothing else. surrender to the will of god,
It is all about accepting life as it comes and annihilating the desire to make, what the lord created, better, better according our expectations.
It is simple a crow is born a crow live as such and will die so.
We are here to witness in whatever form that was given to us to witness reality.
Not that there is a giver, but that is the only way it can be said in language.
Nothing was, is and will ever be in your hands Spence to will
That you are no able and/or willing to see it, accept and understand it is alright
but to suggest to others that they can use their will to change what is not even theirs, is an evil of wealth.
You have no power over yourself let alone over others that contact you…. you are a puppet at a string as your guru said. … but that doesn’t suit you

Hi Um
You wrote
“Nothing was, is and will ever be in your hands Spence to will
That you are no able and/or willing to see it, accept and understand it is alright
but to suggest to others that they can use their will to change what is not even theirs, is an evil of wealth.”
” You have no power over yourself let alone over others that contact you…. you are a puppet at a string as your guru said. … but that doesn’t suit you”
As I wrote above, neither your nihilism nor my optimism is in our hands.
I only remark that you should do as our Master enjoined and light a candle rather than shout at the darkness. Or simply turn around and see Him in the light. You were never in darkness.
What did all that company of Saints lead to if you think he is stingy?
Do you really think Master wants anyone to remain separate and alone?
It is only ignorance that leads to such a conclusion.
It is most certainly in his power. We just have to ask. Really. And even that He does for us. We were never alone.
“Lord, I see that in life there were two sets of footprints in the sand, mine and yours. But when things were difficult, there were only one set of footprints. Why did you leave me then?”
And God answered, “Spence, do you need to have your eyes checked? Take a closer look. There were always only one set of footprints! Mine! Oh my aching back!”

@ Spence
That same God that spoke to Spence, never said to Um heed the words of Spence …. hahaha.
Spence has his own god, his own experience.
The number of people, westerners, asking for initiation are lowering each year not withstanding the stand you take.

Hi Um
You wrote
”
“That same God that spoke to Spence, never said to Um heed the words of Spence …. hahaha.”
God is speaking to people all the time, Um. People are called to serve all the time.
The God in you is the same God in me, Um. Don’t blame her if you haven’t been listening. You can read good spiritual literature, or any good science textbook to get a better idea.
Same exact God. Can’t be two. Just the One.
Now, as to what he or she is really saying, I think that’s very personal and limited by our limitations.
We can certainly learn to hear her or him better.
My God tells me that reality isn’t different. It is the one reality, but each of us can only experience it one point at a time and from one place at a time. And so our reports are going to be widely different.
So we speak to the place we are at.
My God loves that. Anyone who speaks to their experience honestly does honor to where they have been placed. So long as they respect the place others are speaking from. Because it is all God.
You wrote
“The number of people, westerners, asking for initiation are lowering each year not withstanding the stand you take.”
Are you keeping count now?
People find their spirituality in their own way.
One light, many windows, as Baba Ji has often stated.
These people could be finding spirituality in New ways.
Precisely as God determines.
No one seeks God without God’s will. No one seeks God’s will without, in time, finding it. And no one can prevent anyone who seeks from finding God.
That is a source of joy for me, Um.

Hi Um
You wrote
”
“That same God that spoke to Spence, never said to Um heed the words of Spence …. hahaha.”
God is speaking to people all the time, Um. People are called to serve all the time.
The God in you is the same God in me, Um.

@ Spence
Your words sound in my ears as an empty drum … without any meaning or feeling attached to them.
They remind me of the empty words of vicars and priests, people as Huzur once said to me have nothing to share of themselves with others.
Mind you … that is how I hear your words,
That said you might be the only mystic of the western hemisphere.
And I the sole blind and deaf one
Your understanding and attainments, if any, are of no meaning and value to me … they not even change the taste of my coffee.
And I wonder If you are able to see another human being beyond the words that stand in between.

Hi Um
I have no criticism of you or anyone.
Everyone has their perspective and it is valuable to have all of them expressed.
Naturally what appeals to one may appear valueless to another.
My own inner experiences give me pause to appreciate the situation of others as fully legitimate, however varied.
And Religion also is a wonderful field of study. Because by studying other religions we can learn to appreciate those things that are different, new to us, but valuable to others, and be reminded of some common human elements among different peoples, histories and geographies.
Psychology, physics, chemistry all share this quality. We learn the laws that run things by learning.
I’m a big believer in learning and growth. No matter how old and ancient the oldest living pine, still it is green and continues in subtle ways to grow. To live it must grow. No living thing, no matter its age, can remain static. It is an illusion or ignorance to think so.
Therefore, since we are always in motion, let’s move forward.

Um
You wrote
“Bhakti Yoga, Guru mat, sant mat and in the end shabd yoga is all about surrender and nothing else. surrender to the will of god,”
Yes, that’s what I wrote.
That will isn’t what your father taught you, Um. It’s what you uncover within yourself.
Surrender is not in our hands also, Um. But effort is. Love is the answer, Um. And that love comes right in you. Guru Bhakti is only real if you find Guru within yourself.
And as far as creating and making new things, every flower grows new petals. It is in us to create. That’s His life expressing itself in ever more varied ways.
No, our job is not to kill that voice but to silence our chatter, to listen to that inner voice, to make that worship our life, to give it expression in the best way we can. Our life is art, our life is a poetry of love, written by God Himself, if we elect to mine that love that is within each of us. Absolutely your choice. Your duty.
The force of creativity comes right from life itself. And every firm of expression is its own meditation.

And every form of expression, every art is its own meditation.

@ Spence
Things are born, grow to its full form and die.
There is no exception.
Groth has an beginning and an end
Growing is not changing.
What exists is an ongoing [unique] variation of the same.
The river just flows, it never changes into a crow, irrespective the conditions that make the river flow, and change its surface.
The pine too
There is an endless and ongoing change of preparing food,and the devision into many a cuisine, but however it changes it always remains …FOOD …..and food has to be digestible…… as the body needs food not a cuisine.
In western culture we do not want to realize and accept that nature has regulated “growth” in order to stay alive.
The succesor of RSSB when he started out, he said that he would stop the groth of the sangat and to make it visible he compared the sangat with a plant and growth with an abundance of light water and nutrients in the soil and as a concequence that the plant was not able to create enough wood to keep itself upright.
What he didn’t say is that if a pine grows to much wood as a consequence of its natural growth the wood becomes excessive and will cause the pine to die
And as said before ..it might take many hundreds of years before the pine loses its grip on the earth and the capacity to pump water and nutrients to its top the pine never changes….. as its creator, if there is one , … saw … that it was good
History books tell the miserable tale of the human misery, the … desire for changing what is for the better, growth.
Cultural groth and expansion and the non exception of death, is the outcome of christiian thinking, the misunderstanding of the words of an mystic of the past.
The idea of growth is a curse and the very expression of the 5 foes or the buddhist “DESIRE”

@ Spence
And … if the god in Spence is not Spence and, in each and every one, he spoke only to Spence.
If that would be the case, that God that is in everyone so also in Um, failed to speak to Um and told him to heed the words of Spence.
So what we have is the HEARSAY of spence.
Spence operating as the mouthpiece of GOD.
THAT … is what the clergy has done for ages ….talking, commanding etc … in THE NAME OF GOD
A God that was only available to just one person, one cast

Hi Um
The God in you is the God in me.
It’s part of the human construction and available to anyone who asks, willing to practice sincerely.
That is a growing relationship, a pathway through yourself.
Um, the wealth in me is the same wealth in you.
Whether you see a bank account total or your loving Father tells you he is placing the funds in trust for you, it is the same wealrh. No one has more of it than anyone else. If you have a human body and are alive, you have the entire creation in you. You have all the wealth there is.
If you want to see some of it, practice.
It is that simple.
You heard it as someone else’s testimony, like attending a Chemistry Class. Now attend the lab and do the lab work your professors told you about. You claim to love them. Now live what they taught and follow their instructions. You aren’t alone. They are right there with you, helping guide you.
You have the same beakers, test tubes, Bunson burner and reagents as every other student in the class. Some have a little more experience and their chemical reaction comes a little faster. Others need help controlling the right amount of each chemical, the heat to be applied, the timing of the admixture.
Some students will need to scrap their current mixture and try again.
But no one gets through today’s class without getting results. Because the Professor is here.
Interestingly, the professor doesn’t spend much time with the students who got it right away. He is attending to those who are needing a little help.
But everyone has the same supplies and equipment, and the results are assured by the laws of chemistry, and the student’s success assured by the attention of the professor.

@ Spence
Whether there is a god or not I do not know.
Nor do i know what the concept is all about.
What I do know is that some individual humans, based upon their supposed inner experience, have introduced such an concept and go on to say that such an power is in everyone.
If that would be the case everyone would have knowledge of such an power.
Now the majority do not have that knowledge the priests tell them what to do.
It has become their snake oil establishment.

@ Spence
If others would not have spoken to me about God, Inner experiences, etc etc etc. I would never have known about it.
I lent them my ears and in doing so I was brainwashed into their stories.
Based upon my personal experience of life these concepts have no meaning.
There are those that speak about hidden treasures, in many forms, material and immaterial. One can argue about the existence of these treasures and about the reasons why they are hidden to most and known to some but one can question whether these treasures are needed to live.
Becoming “rich” like others, has never been a thing for me.

@ Spence
How came the indigenous peoples of the Americas to be Christian?
How did these people came to speak English, French and Spanish?
Without the missionaries they would have never had any knowledge of it
and …
They would never have lost their freedom, properties and dignity and become the “slaves” untill today of that white, christian, english speaking upper class.
That is how people became mentaly and spiritual enslaved by the promise of wealth ….
For the hindus, if you are interested you are welcome but they do not go out of their way to spread their word.
The evil of wealth is related to the spreading of an message without being invited…. the suggestion that you have access to something that makes life better than it is and that you can deliver the road towards it.
Nothing wrong with people having wealth and enjoying that wealth.

Hi Um
You wrote
“For the hindus, if you are interested you are welcome but they do not go out of their way to spread their word.”
Had they not taught their children you would not know.
You see Um, you were indoctrinated. Just as children are in all cultures.
Now you have decided that the other religions of the world are entirely at fault, whereas I see the same great strength at the base of each.
But, as you say, if you are interested, it does depend upon your upbringing. Mine was set before my birth. I was born a Jew, but when I was five years old my parents left Judaism, in protest for what happened to our Rabbi. He rejected Israel as the homeland of the Jews. He rejected zionism, and taught that the true Israel is inside of each of us, a place in Spirit, not dirt in some geography. So he lost his job, and my parents left Judaism. This was in the early sixties. Combined with my own inner experiences we were in a bit of turmoil, though everything turned out fine.
Rabbi Finegold wasn’t rejecting Judaism. He was rejecting the political nature of the organization, and taught that the base of Judaism was in fact mysticism.
So that is what I see when I consider the beliefs of others. And that is the greater truth.
It doesn’t matter that a treasure has been buried. What matters is that the same treasure is in each of us. We are all brothers and sisters in the same family precisely because we have the same Father.
“We have no right to claim God is our Father until we can claim all men are our brothers.”
Sawan Singh
So you see the RSSB organization, as you understand it, is entirely different from the spiritual powerhouse of RSSB as I understand it. I do realize that these two alternate realities do in fact share the same physical space.
But one is infinitely more valuable to each individual than the other.

@ Spence
What I write has nothing to do with what you write in your answer. and You know it.
What RSSB etc means to you is not what I am interested in, nor should it be of any interest to you or anybody else what RSSB means to me.
But it is what people do in this case you, with what they hold in presenting it to others.
It is about communication.
It is about what you do here, in this blog, with what is yours.
The last word in this matter is yours.

@ Spence
> It doesn’t matter that a treasure has been buried. What matters is that the same treasure is in each of us. << Without YOU and others spreading that message around nobody would know Whether there is a treasure in YOU or in all is not at stake, but spreading that message is equal to saying to people .. I have something you do not have. What makes it even worse is telling them how wonderful that is and that there are ways to find that treasure inside themselves.. It is like telling people they can become president of the USA or win they lottery. Yes they can but the chances they do are niglectable. And you, who had inner experiences as a GIFT like there is als Mr. Tolle en others, know that. To tell others that they can have it also is what I call the evil of wealth. it is an affrond to all that meditated dor 2, 3 4 and 5 decades .. like your friend Brian Ji ...hahahaha

Hi Um
You wrote
“Whether there is a treasure in YOU or in all is not at stake, but spreading that message is equal to saying to people .. I have something you do not have.”
Quite the contrary. It is pointing to the treasure in your own home that you forgot about all becuse you choose to look at others but not within.
You wrote
” What makes it even worse is telling them how wonderful that is and that there are ways to find that treasure inside themselves..”
Is it wrong to speak the truth? Or to get angry at another doing so?
You wrote
“It is like telling people they can become president of the USA or win they lottery.
Yes they can but the chances they do are niglectable.”
According to whom? According to the Saints everyone has that job and that money already in a trust account.
It is a scientist stating what they observed, and noting that these results area similar to those written of throughout recorded history.
It’s universally available.
Those who have even they slightest intuition of it, driving them forward, will understand immediately, intuitively.
Those who have no connection with it will not.
Because it is not in our hands, Um. That is a matter of our conditioning. But if a growing connection is what you want to whatever is inside you, then of course any path of true personal growth will yield similar results.
As for the results, at what Brian Ji has written. He shares that wealth all the time, in a language you can understand and appreciate.
Sadly all I can do is speak of my own situation, and the universal availability of it.
But as to the benefits, whether conscious or unconscious, Brian Ji is a wonderful example of the benefits filtering through. He really is Baba Ji and Maharaji’s bulldozer, pulling everyone’s through their illusions. And of course he, you and I are also being pulled.

Hi Um
You wrote
“Whether there is a treasure in YOU or in all is not at stake, but spreading that message is equal to saying to people .. I have something you do not have.”
No, I think I’ve repeated, oh, a few dozen times, that it’s the same treasure in you.
If a person wants to learn to run and sees an article about aerobic conditioning, the principles are universal. Follow those and get similar results. That’s universal. Because the physical make up is the same in most everyone.
You want that conditioning? You do the practice. And of course you make adjustments along the way for your particular individual condition.

Now, Um, different parole for different reasons give up their practice.
But so much hard research on meditation demonstrates the very real benefits of continuing.
As to inner experiences, all long term mediators have them, and you can swap notes to get insight into your own. Or seek out advice as you need it.
You want to claim the world is filled with poverty but then are “affronted” (to use your term). by a pathway to a wealth in you? A wealth that is part of who and what you are, your very birthright? You think a solution is an affront to those living with a problem?
Is sobriety an insult to the alcoholic?
That may be so but I’m missing the logic. Seems to me you should be ‘affronted’ by what stands in the way of your practice.

@ Spence
I do know the content of that message of yours.
What is neither kind nor helpfull is the suggestion to others that they have that treasure, knowing that you started out, like many others with a gift of an experience.
To suggest later on that others that never had such an gift, that they can have that treasure as well is as i said neither helpful nor kind.
Huzur, in his days was against any form of spreading the word about that treasure and stressed that it should come out of a person WITHOUT any intervention of others.
You behave like a missionary that spreads Christianity .. that too was neither kind nor helpfull
It is the evil of wealth.
In those days I was happily involved in Sant Mat, I never said nor suggested to those near and dear to me that they should do what I had done
You see you are like those people that wanted to write articles in the news papers so that all could hear the “good [savior] news”. Huzur again and again told them to refrain from it but they were not willing and just did whathey wantedd

Oops should read, “Different people for different reasons give up their practice. A promising student is distracted by love or enticing business prospects and quits their hard-won scholarship at University. They complain for decades about the uselessness of a University education all the while noticing the better living conditions of others who started years later, graduated and are enjoying their careers.
But this particular University held your scholarship for you! You complained and bitterly about the instructors, made excuses, and lost faith, in Truth, in yourself.
But the University counselor never lost faith in you.
So, the scholarship has already been paid for. Your Professors are still teaching there. Nothing has changed. Complain all you like. Or take the next cab back. Even your old dorm room is still there and held in respect for you.
Be affronted all you like. I’m not affronted, Um in the least.
Every child deserves to be loved, even a child hardened by circumstance. They are children, afterall.

@ Spence
>> Oops should read, “Different people for different reasons give up their practice. A promising student is distracted by love or enticing business prospects and quits their hard-won scholarship at University. They complain for decades about the uselessness of a University education all the while noticing the better living conditions of others who started years later, graduated and are enjoying their careers.<< You are describing your own history, ... and ... your parent's ... hahgaha

And Um, as to proselytizing, that is not what I’m doing anymore than you area proselytizing for the religion of Nihilism.
I represent no organization.
I speak to what I’ve learned is universal.
You do not share that view. That’s fine.
You may condemn me for speaking my view, although it’s just your misunderstanding.
You don’t remember, that’s all. So how can I respond to someone who forgot what they already have? Only with compassion and encouragement to get up and keep walking.

@ Spence
If you had any compassion you would be silent about your achievements and under no circumstance suggest that others could have the same as you … knowing … that that is not true…. ask your friend Brian Ji … hahahaha

Every day the human mind forgets. Every day memories are lost. At night we dream but remember little of it. And what we do remember was lost and must be reconstructed from the fragments that remain.
Our lives are spent living in those fragments. That, and the imaginary reconstructions that we create to form “memory” is what we live in. We remember it in a way that flatters our current sentiments. It’s just his story, or her story. But in all events it’s a story. Yes, based loosely on real events. Very loosely.
Reality is quite different. But what access do we have to it?
So long as our consciousness is constrained to the functioning mind, and cannot perceive in any other way, we are in a hopeless state. We react emotionally to little things because in that moment they are everything real to us.
Sad, pitiable.
We can do better. No wonder people are in constant conflict. Misunderstandings abound in such a flawed system.
We can do better.

@ Spence
That is a lie, …. the one use by snake oil sellers, that people will get better if they only take their [mental] potion.
Even worse is is when the make them self seen as ” healers”

Hi Um
To the blind person any discussion of color is a lie.
To the Alcoholic any discussion of Sobriety is an affront.
As Alan Watts said the addictions are too strong to give up.
But the addictiction is the real insult and every alcoholic should be affronted by it.
The addiction is the lie, Um.

@ Spence
I am only blind and an alcoholic in YOUR peresonalized worldview .. and seeing that way gives you a good feeling about yourself.
Evil of wealth, Spence can have tricky faces, they come as your “well wisher”
Hahahaha ..

Hi Um
You wrote
“I am only blind and an alcoholic in YOUR peresonalized worldview .. and seeing that way gives you a good feeling about yourself.”
No I think you have it backwards. I’m not pleased with the distance at all. The idea of people living in poverty is an affront to me. Human beings were meant for more. This insistence that you are living in poverty and must remain there makes no sense. I see no point to it, especially if you must deny what was promised to you by your own Master. That’s weird.
But addiction is also a powerful force. The force of the vacuum.
But as to living in poverty, as long as you chose to be here, then I’m here too, at least during the day shift.
If I could swing open the gates to the city I would. All I can do is point out that the gates are already open. And the city already belongs to those who want to go in.

@ Spence
>> If I could swing open the gates to the city I would. All I can do is point out that the gates are already open. And the city already belongs to those who want to go in.<< That exists only in your own fairy tale as a solution offered by a snake oil seller. There is a difference between: You can do better and you are good as you are It is a matter of right understanding and compassion. You cannot live without people that need your help and if they do not ask for your help you try to make them feel that they do need help .. your help. You function on their need. ... hahaha

This week 85
What did I learn:
This Title < The answer is : YES https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz7tCZE_3wA
777

Hey, um.
Interesting, what you said about Ramana.
I do know a bit about Ramana. I’ve read about him, a bit; and someone I personally know is actually a disciple of his—that is, not directly, but she ‘follows’ him, sees him as her spiritual guide, and allegedly has had breakthroughs while on that path. Which latter is neither here nor there, what I was saying is, although I know a bit about Ramana, clearly I don’t know half as much as I thought I do. Because while his path of self-enquiry is well enough known, I’d imagined that was the only path he “taught”. The surrender-to-the-Guru business, that you speak of, I’d no clue Ramana was associated with that sort of thing as well.
Good to know. Thanks for pointing that out.

Spence, um,
I find you both debating that same issue that a while back I’d tried to get you to not just spar about but actually debate to some conclusion: I mean the question about whether the spiritual potential —- assuming for now that that’s even a thing, and ignoring for now the possibility that it’s all of it a load of bull, because otherwise there’s no sense even discussing any of this —- is something that’s inherent in everybody, and in more or less equal measure, at least as far as potential (as you claim, Spence), or whether (as you assert, um) it’s inherent only to some, maybe a very few, and not a universal human condition.
I think this would be a great issue to explore, and perhaps come to some kind of resolution about. But I only mention this in passing, and don’t actually invite you to try to constructively explore and resolve the issue, not again, given the utter fiasco the last attempt ended up as.
———-
Incidentally, Spence, that was interesting, your account of how and why your parents left the Judaic fold. I personally think that’s cool: because while for obvious reasons I’m sympathetic to Jews (I mean to say their shameful persecution, not just by Hitler’s goons, but by all of Europe, and much of Asia as well, for centuries, millennia actually), but I personally find the Zionist project a reprehensible thing. I appreciate the utterly desperate situation that Israel has been facing, and facing very bravely and very ably, right since its inception; and I also see Israel as both more civilized as well as far more benign than its barbaric neighbors; but, that said, I totally reject the basis on which that country was founded. I mean, a gaggle of “powers”, to assuage their collective guilt at having persecuted a bunch of innocent folks, and stung to sympathy by the extreme Nazi atrocities, and most importantly to get rid of these folks and settle them off somewhere far away, they misuse their superior military strength to carve up the lands of people who totally don’t want it to create Israel, ostensibly based on some absurd pseudo-historical fairy tales allegedly dating back millennia: how utterly insupportable is such a move.
So anyway, not to get into all of that: that’s only by way of explaining why I respect your parents for having had the sense to reject the Zionist idea. Very cool.

Hi Um
You wrote
“That exists only in your own fairy tale as a solution offered by a snake oil seller.
” There is a difference between:
You can do better
and
you are good as you are
“It is a matter of right understanding and compassion.”
Precisely, Um. We are saying the same thing from only slightly different perspectives. The gate is already open, as I wrote. The treasure is in you already. You are good to go. So go. Move forward. If you need help, help is also there. If you have a teacher you trust, follow his instructions. If not, find one. The human body is complex. That’s why we have doctors. The human body isn’t false because it requires your focused and disciplined care.
There is no need to denigrate anyone else simply for stating facts which you yourself have acknowledged.
Be affronted by the barriers in front of you, the ones you can do something about, and avoid distraction.

@ AR
You pointed at Ashtavakra and a search made me find this site on the Ahtavakra Gita related to Ramana Maharshi.
https://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/ashtavakra-gita/
It has an online audio translation of that Gita, which if I can manage to gather enough drive, will listen to.
AFTER these people had their experiences of what Yolande Duran calls “solence” they say it is a matter of surrender but … they themselves …. never surrendered because that is impossible. The self / ego cannot surrender at will and no amount of effort will do it. To suggest it can be done is fooling people around with a twisted interpretation of what happened to them.
All started out with an unasked for experience that hit them like a flash of lightneng, Ramana Marshi is no exception to that rule.
So .. do not follow an mystic in his footsteps, do not read their books, show the priests that “sell” the insights of mystics the shortest way to hell, where they will probably will not allow entenace because their evil is to much for the inhabitants of hell to bear.
Do never give so miuch “food” to a person that he cannot swallow and digest.
Burn down the the esoteric bookshops and jail those that open their mouth

Hi Appreciative
Each of us are molded by our upbringing to see the world as we do. An open mind is the best tool to grow from there. Trees may be everywhere. Even indoors. Even in basements in pots. Generally, they all grow towards the sunlight, wherever it is coming from. It might be a little bit lateral, or might be straight up.
Evidence we are not seeing the whole picture happens when we do not understand. When someone says “you lie! You are false! You are a swindler!” Emotion.
1.The bee robs the flower it seeds.
2. The gods grant the wishes of those they would destroy.
3. The dark room is filled with hidden candles. Don’t shout at the darkness. Light a candle.

@ Spence
What I had to say I did.

That’s right enough, um, without a shadow of a doubt, as far as Ramana himself. Much like Yolande, he’d had his enlightenment experience spontaneously, and he arrived at the rest of it only after, long after. (He’d had his “episode” when he was still a child.)
Of course, the skeptic in me wonders whether this might actually have been a psychotic episode, and whether there are whole hordes that try to follow a psychotic individual into psychosis! (Not that I’m asserting that’s so, only listing the possibility, and noting that it isn’t as if this isn’t plausible.)

Hi, Spence.
Those are wise words, or at least wise-ish, but not sure how that ties in with what I’d said. I genuinely find that subject of interest, whether or not the spiritual potential is a universal condition. (And I understand that different traditions might have different answers to that. Teasing that aspect out might be interesting.)
Maybe you’d misread one of um’s posts and thought it was mine, and it is that you’re responding to? Otherwise, I’m not sure how what you say relates.

@ AR
The potential is in everybody, in the same way as everybody that buys an lottery ticket can win the jack pot.
That said the chances that one wins the jackpot are statistically almost nil.

Heh, so you assert, um, without explaining why. And Spence asserts the opposite, again without backing up his empty assertion any more than you do yours.
Like I said, there’s the possibility that all of this is bull in any case. Let’s merely note that, but ignore it for now, in the interests of furthering the rest of the discussion.
This is where we were last time, when you did agree to start, both of you, and I hoped to look on, fly on wall. But inexplicably, Spence then insisted you were in agreement with his POV, which clearly you’re not, so that that attempt ended a total fiasco.
Anyhoo… like I said, just thought I’d point out the potentially instructive debate, that’s all. I’m not going to try to facilitate it, not this time. Should it take off though, and contrary to my expectations, well then I’ll be here, reading it with interest.

@ AR
I am sorry that I have to disappoint you AR.
You are interested in scientific prove and rational explanations of experiences and I am more inclined to focus on the psychological and social consequences of these experiences.
So the “problem” i have with spence is not so much the fact that he has inner experiences but having them what he does with them in the public domain.
If an phenomena can occur in one human being, it can appear in all but it does not say that it will occur in all.
Things, facts, stories told are what they are
often not what they appear to be
let alone how they are presented to the world.
So wealth, material mental and spiritual, by itself is not a problem.
Nor the way the wealth was attained or its definition.
To me it matters what people do with it in the public domain.
The 5 foes,
… anger, lust, attachment, greed, and ego
[ what is a miserable translation of the concept of ahangkar] …..
are all speaking of a relationship between a person and the public domain.
Ahangkar .. has many faces, material, mental but also spiritual.
If you read the Anurag Sagar attributed to Kabir the founder of the way of the saints, you will notice that “the liar” can come in the guise of “the truth teller” and that it is almost impossible to see where and how the truth ends and the lies begin.
And …. In order not to provoke the “anger”of Manjit … it is immaterial to me who wrote the story related in the Anurag and if there are indeed 12 false variations on each path of truth.
Finally I am not an Kabir, nor a mystic or an scientist. but somebody in the public domain that safeguards his mental freedom.

So :
“Can we kiss forever?”
YES
777

Ha ha ha, dear um, you misunderstand me: I am not in the least disappointed in you! There’s some misunderstanding somewhere, so let me explain, and at some length:
Look: You are asserting that our spiritual attainment (or otherwise) is intrinsic to us. and, what is more, unique to us, individually. We’re either crows or else peacocks (or swans, or whatever), and while we can fully develop our own potential, we can’t go beyond that; so that everyone has their own personal spiritual journey, that cannot be directed by someone else, or even influenced by someone else. If we don’t have the potential for some spiritual attainment — and many of us don’t — then there is no way following someone else or copying someone else can help us attain what they have attained (or claim to have attained).
Spence, on the other hand, claims that the inner font of spiritual absorption and insight is something that is part of our human heritage, and is open to us all, every one of us; in other words, that potential is not selective but universal; and all that is needed is proper applicaton, proper practice.
These two are contrasting claims. How do we resolve which claim is true? Like everything else, by looking at the evidence, as well as the reasoning.
(Again, the usual qualification: Always assuming all of this even a thing, always assuming all of this isn’t unvarnished bull shit. That possibility, while we’d do well to always keep in mind, but we keep it aside for the space of the discussion, because otherwise the discussion itself becomes moot.)

Hi AR:
You asked if I might have responded tot he wrong post. Yes, possibly, of course. Mistakes are a daily event for me.
What I was trying to get out was your comment about Um and my perspectives and views. They aren’t actually in conflict and so there won’t be a “meeting in the middle”…They are a display of two ways of describing similar things, from two different sets of conditioning.
I can’t speak for Um, but I think he does a good job expressing his views and sentiments. They are going to appeal to some.
No one likes to be called a ‘liar’ in public especially when it isn’t true. But people do react to things and that’s OK. The world is full of re-action, and we are about trying to get ahead of that to “action”..pro-active living, to the extent we can, and that’s the avenue we promote.
That’s internal work.
And the building of internal wealth. My Master said several times that our meditation is our responsibility to burn our own karma, to eliminate our own reactivity and impressions from the past. In this way we lighten our burden and see things more clearly, objectively.
So, from a psychological perspective this is very healthy. We are letting our thoughts proceed and fade away as we simply witness them from a perspective of peace, which devotion gives us.
So we become more aware of what is in us, that we didn’t know, that was subconscious, and at the same time, by accepting it calmly, it fades away. Something more is unlocked. Layers begin to fade away. How? Simply looking at them with dispassion. That is what you might call an inner miracle, and of course, since those things don’t have the same power, they have been exposed to the conscious mind, they have less and less power to influence us without our permission.
If you think Putin is a tyrant (no argument there) there is another tyrant operating in secret in each one’s subconscious. Let’s expose him! But the cost is to accept him for what he is, knowing that mere exposure works the rest in his gradual erasure.
This simple meditation practice, of which there are many versions across many different beliefs, can lead to so much more.
It’s not simply that we have these hidden subconscious impressions to burn away. But that under them are real treasures…the inner experiences, and that direct connection to reality. Witnessing, it’s like taking an outdoor shower naked on a warm summer day in a warm rain surrounded by beauty.

Hi AR:
You asked if I might have responded tot he wrong post. Yes, possibly, of course. Mistakes are a daily event for me.
What I was trying to get at was your comment about Um and my perspectives and views. They aren’t actually in conflict and so there won’t be a “meeting in the middle”…They are a display of two ways of describing similar things, from two different sets of conditioning. Um has very firm beliefs that the basic truth of the inner path can only come from certain certified individuals, namely the RSSB Masters. We differ on that, but to me that’s cosmetic. Um does not argue with the inner path, nor the fact that it is in everyone. It is only accessible, in the older traditions, to those the Master has initiated. But what Um may not realize is that the process can begin quite a long time before anything like formal initiation by a Master. And all those stages are not only legitimate, but part of the “path”.
I can’t speak for Um, but I think he does a good job expressing his views and sentiments. They are going to appeal to some who have been initiated. But to me the process of outward initiation and even outward Master is a human layer on top of a physiological reality that is nearly universal.
No one likes to be called a ‘liar’ in public especially when it isn’t true. But people do react to things and that’s OK. The world is full of re-action, and we are about trying to get ahead of that to “action”..pro-active living, to the extent we can, and that’s the avenue we promote.
That’s internal work.
And the building of internal wealth. My Master said several times that our meditation is our responsibility to burn our own karma, to eliminate our own reactivity and impressions from the past. In this way we lighten our burden and see things more clearly, objectively.
So, from a psychological perspective this is very healthy. We are letting our thoughts proceed and fade away as we simply witness them from a perspective of peace, which devotion gives us.
So we become more aware of what is in us, that we didn’t know, that was subconscious, and at the same time, by accepting it calmly, it fades away. Something more is unlocked. Layers begin to fade away. How? Simply looking at them with dispassion. That is what you might call an inner miracle, and of course, since those things don’t have the same power, they have been exposed to the conscious mind, they have less and less power to influence us without our permission.
If you think Putin is a tyrant (no argument there) there is another tyrant operating in secret in each one’s subconscious. Let’s expose him! But the cost is to accept him for what he is, knowing that mere exposure works the rest in his gradual erasure.
This simple meditation practice, of which there are many versions across many different beliefs, can lead to so much more.
It’s not simply that we have these hidden subconscious impressions to burn away. But that under them are real treasures…the inner experiences, and that direct connection to reality. Witnessing, it’s like taking an outdoor shower naked on a warm summer day in a warm rain surrounded by beauty.

“You asked if I might have responded tot he wrong post. Yes, possibly, of course. Mistakes are a daily event for me.”
Cool. Not a problem, at all, Spence! Your response seemed a bit of a non sequitur, as far as my post; so I thought to clarify, that’s all.
———-
“Um and my perspectives and views. They aren’t actually in conflict ”
God, I find myself in that same spot, that I did *not* want to be in.
Whether you want to discuss this out with him or not is up to you; but how on earth can you keep claiming your POVs don’t disagree?
um is saying that not every individual comes equipped with the potential for spiritual development; and even those that do don’t come equipped with the same potential; so that, while for those (few?) who do, it makes sense to develop that potential, if they so wish; but that kind of “development” is simply not possible for those that don’t come so equipped. So that, it is both wrong, as well as cruel, for those who do come so equipped, to pretend that that attainment is open to everybody.
You, on the other hand, are saying the exact opposite. As you very clearly agreed, in response to the occasional interjection from me on the other thread, and here as well: your POV is that this spiritual uplift, of which you speak, is a universal human condition, that all of us come equipped with. So that, while obviously people are free to do (or not do) what they like, but it does make sense to make full use of this wonderful potential that providence has equipped all of us with.
I’m not getting into which of those two is the correct POV. That’s for the two of you to suss out, if you’d like to that is. But that those two claims are diametrically opposed, is without a shadow of a doubt true. I don’t see why you keep claiming otherwise.
———-
“No one likes to be called a ‘liar’ in public especially when it isn’t true. ”
Agreed. But that’s between the two of you, and it’s not my place to poke my nose in a personal disagreement between the two of you.
———-
“This simple meditation practice, of which there are many versions across many different beliefs, can lead to so much more.”
Oh, I agree. While I’m skeptical about a great deal of this, but I do see the huge potential, that’s, well, *potentially* there; as well as a not insignificant incidental benefit as well, that’s without a doubt on offer, as well. As you know, as far as I am concerned, I’m fully onboard, already, with the meditation agenda/project.

@ AR
Walking the path of rational thinking comes also with some gifts …. clear thinking
Hahahaa
It was a pleasure to read your summary it helps me to see more details.
The stand i take is complex and it is in danger of being seen as deterministic. What is not there cannot be created and what is there can be developed. Even here the word “developed” is a tricky one. Plants do not grow without water, earth and light but these things, without which there is no growth, do not grow the plant.
All mysticism starts with a human being having an spontaneous experience that creates an altered state of consciousness. It can me be of short durance[ revelation, insight etc] or a once and for all change as to be found with NDE’s or as described bu Mrs. Duran.
There starts the problem!
Those that have these “once and for all changes” have to share the same realm with others. They are now two sided … they know the world from before the event and after. They also remember the language, the words and concepts and that is all they have at their possession to communicate with the rest.
Next, comes the question, about reality. Is the reality before the event “THE” reality or is the reality after the event the reality, or higher degree of reality.
What we find in literature is the comparison of that new reality with the day to day reality, as waking with sleeping and dreaming. That is probably the best way to explain that it is EXPERIENCED that way .. what doesn’t mean to say it “IS” higher, other etc!
Being experienced that way, those that have it have presented it as a “goal” of life.
That too, seen from their perspective, is the best and only thing to do but that doesn’t mean it is the truth. I am convinced, if such a thing might happen to me I will react as they did and do.
That brings me to the statement .. that if there is a cause to these events other than the person involved, that cause failed to inform me and failing to inform me, means humanity as a whole. To illustrate what I mean I used the believe that the god of the 3 monotheistic religion, chose a people as his favorite and allowed them an territory to be considered as “god given theirs”. It is a kind of insight and conclusion as Baba Faqir Chand had when he discovered that both the students of his own teacher Shiv Brat Lal and his own, had experiences in which they appeared and counseled them, without their knowledge.
So
[1] there are those that have spontaneous experiences
[2] there are those that created experiences by manipulating the brain-body
And there is no way that the number one experiences can be created or re-created by practices use to achieve the number two experiences. That said being around people that have gone through the “once and for all experience” might bring to the surface the latent possibilities in others.
And the rest is a matter of how these experiences, be it one or number two are used in the public domain.
All suggestions that people can and should change, and can and should be helped etc tips the balance of superiority and inferiority, and the source of much suffering humanity has to face.
We human beings are first and for all natural beings and as such, there is nothing that can be changed. As we are also cultural beings we can evolve, change and alter but that doesn’t effect the natural being at all.
Idealists, people that think that they have something to offer to nature, have cause unmeasurable suffering in the course of human history.
Imagine how much people after the introduction of eastern thinking in the west in the seventies have toiled in vain to was put before them as “If they would only ….”.
They are fooled like the man that fooled the [starving] donkey through a field of carrots by holding just ONE carrot before the eyes of the donkey. And poor donkey focussing on that one carrot was not able to see the carrots all around him.
That is what I call a evil

@ Spence / AR
>> Um has very firm beliefs that the basic truth of the inner path can only come from certain certified individuals, namely the RSSB Masters.<< No I don't ! I never said it I never suggested it. A path is a trajectory chosen to walk. Those that have summit to walk such an path have no freedom of their own to change it if they do they become heretics the own and use something that is not theirs.

Hi Um and AR
Reading your essays I think I have a better understanding and can clarify my position.
I believe the entire path has a physiological basis built into practically everyone. Most anyone with a human body in a wide variety of conditions and willing to practice, willing to adjust their lifestyle to support their practice, and interested to do so will make progress.
Along the way we will need help, just as any aspiring pilot or surgeon will need instruction and support at key points along the way. They must also lead a disciplined life conducive to learning and practicing their profession. Utimately their progress depends in large part upon the hands, eyes, brain and environment of the aspirant.
Not everyone will go as far, but everyone can make progress because we all have basically the same equipment.
So progress is possible for anyone. Anyone can take a step forward. All those people who tried and gave up may have been looking for something that wasn’t there. Or they may have needed better advice or some adjustments to what they were doing, or their lifestyle, that they weren’t aware of or for whatever reason were unwilling or unable at the time, to make. But improvement through practice in meditation is there for everyone.
Sant Mat is also very hopeful and encouraging on that front.
To make it a little cleaner let’s just assume that I’m only discussing the actual physiological equipment and experiences built into the human body, available to any sincere and devout ptactitioner (devout to their practice, and willing to be creative and adapt as their experience unfolds barriers and ways through them).
I’m not talking about the secret veiled, too complicated for us mortals mythos to which Um refers.
I’m talking about the reality underneath that culture bound D&D secret dungeon master guidebook created by those cultures.

@ Spence
>> I believe the entire path has a physiological basis built into practically everyone. Most anyone with a human body in a wide variety of conditions and willing to practice, willing to adjust their lifestyle to support their practice, and interested to do so will make progress.<< You started out with this paragraph and it is exact where the problem starts. You suppose that because the path, as possibility is part of the human make up, there is also the desire and willingness to develop it. That is the same as thinking that Christ is the savior and that for that reason, it should be made available for all under the sun. That is wrong and in the end evil. Nobody needs the help of another human being to live a natural life. There is no reason to think that we are in a more miserable situations than plants and animals. We are forced to swallow a culture what in the end mentally cripples humanity. Culture is related to In-equality and nature with equality. The mount everest exists The mount everest can be climbed People experience great joy and contentment in climbing that mountain For those that are inspired there is nothing wrong in asking advice from those that did BUT ..... To suggest that the mountain is there to be climbed and It is the goal of human life to climb it IS ..... E V I L

“I believe the entire path has a physiological basis built into practically everyone. ”
Hey, Spence.
Yep, I know. That’s what you believe.
And um believes the exact opposite. He believes that only some, maybe only a few, have the physiological basis built into them.
And that is your core disagreement. That you may wish to suss out, if you like.
So far what both of you are doing is to simply assert your respective positions time and time again. If you like you could explain to each other your reasons for believing what you do, as far as this; if you like you could present your evidence, reasoning, argument, to see which is true.
(It doesn’t have to be a contest, obviously, of course not. But you both seem to believe your own positions implicitly. Wouldn’t you want to cross-check your position, find out if you’re actually right, or whether you might be mistaken after all? I would, in your place. And the only way to do that is to marshall your arguments and your evidence and your reasoning, in defense of your respective positions. ———-But your call, whether you want to try this. Like I’d done in the other thread as well, with this preface I’m right out of here. Watching in, absolutely, for what might now be discussed, or not discussed; but with lips zippered.)

@ Spence and AR
Dad shall I continue educate myself?
Why do you ask me?
I did not go to college why would you?
These look like simpel questions and answers but they are not that simple.
Nor what was asked nor what was given as an answer is to be found in the words.
To speak with Mrs Duran these words point at something BEHIND the words.
Then the dictum was:
Live a natural life in a natural way
and
A simple life in a simple way
Culture is all about growth, changes for the better, classes and people s that are better in cganging for the better than others etc .. it is the very source of all human missery
Nature, was, if we have to believe the words of the creator, GOOD as it was made.
The crow, the Nightingale and the eagle were all GOOD as they are.
Nature cannot be ameliorated … lao zi , Changzi, Liezi and wunengzi .. already knew that thousands of years ago.
They called Congfu zi all sorts of names .. liar just one of the most kind ones
Hahahaha

OR ….simple said
As long as we pay and respect an academic more than any person that works with his hands and make them live in better houses and circumstances …. whatever mystics say is meaningless.
Let alone when mysticism itself is used as a means to excel

I’ve come to look at it this way. Spence follows the Path as a spence-ist. um follows the Path as an um-ist. They’re different clays requiring different conditions.

@ Umami
Speaking about a path … The poet Dante says in his first Canto of Inverno
CANTO 1
MIDWAY upon the journey of our life
I found myself within a forest dark,
For the straightforward pathway had been lost.
Ah me! how hard a thing it is to say
What was this forest savage, rough, and stern,
Which in the very thought renews the fear.
So bitter is it, death is little more;
But of the good to treat, which there I found,
Speak will I of the other things I saw there.
I cannot well repeat how there I entered,
So full was I of slumber at the moment
In which I had abandoned the true way.
In Italian the bitterness oif the experience sounds very different and agonizing.
Think for a moment of walking on a path in the woods, that all of a sudden turn out to be an “Animal trail”
Animal trails come from nowhere and go nowhere, they are …NOT a path
Imagine what that means to the traveler.
There he loses everything and moreover there is nobody there to help him, he is all alone in a dark forest.
After many fases, that need not to be described, the once traveler, is busy to survive, he is going nowhere as he doesn’t know where to go.

um,
Like uchit-manojism? All Paths lead to hell?

@ Umami,
My whole life I was on this or that path from point a to b, material mental and otherwise.
Then I lost track in the forest.
Whether there is a hell, a path etc I do not know and I do not care anymore.
There in the forest of life I deal with whatever presents it self. … Just now all of a sudden an Indian young lady with her mother, people I haddend seen for more than a decade, rang the door to pay me a visit. We had some good Chai
They left and Now I answer you.

@ Umami
And speaking with them about bygone times, times that brought smiles and laughter on or faces, we came to speak about the differences in culture between Indians and westerners.
She also referred to an guru appearing in her dreams, counseling her. In thew days a often was invited to stay with this or that Indian family and also in India I heard people speaking of this type of experience as if it was the most normal thing in the world.
In the past I never reacted but this time a said that I didn’t know any western having that type of experience and than she gave a remarkable answer. She said: “Um that is not necessary” Seeing my surprise she added: “Look Um you people have access to the guru in the body, you can ask questions directly, write letters etc … we do not have that opportunity but another one to the same effect.”
True or not .. it was a remarkable answer. That again brought it home to me how different Sant Mat is seen by Indians

@ AR
In reaction to your last message to Spence.
What he writes is common ground for all those that are Initiated by MCS,
As I have often tried to explain, whatever humans do think and feel is part of an tale or game. Sant Mat too is a story and all that participate in that story cannot but speak from within that story. If on the borders of the ganga thew priests waves the lamps in honor of the hindu dieties, that waving has an meaning attributed to it, a meaning that is shared with all present. For me as an onlooking witness it has no meaning. Whatever happens during that ceremony is predictable from within that story…
Those that participate cannot understand that what has meaning for them does not have any meaning attached to it. So Spence, taking part in the ceremony cannot but speak as he does.
I participated also in that ceremony, that tale, that story, that drama and outside all things are seen different. He cannot believe there is an outside for me .. as the script describes once in you are in for always.
Understanding what I write or even worst agreeing, would push him outside the circle of ceremonies and why should he do it?
So there is nothing to explain. Taking stand on another point makes things seen in another perspective. That can only be shared with those in the same position.
There is nothing to cross check. etc … only when two people standing on the same place they can discuss what they see and exchange their individual appreciations for what there is to see and the values that can be attributed to what is seen.
I can do my best to share with others what I see, but that should not be an reason for them to leave their stand etc and I am not inviting anybody as I do not know whether that place will suit them and I have nothing to give in compensation when it does not
hahahaha .. I have been a good son to my father
In fact the call in my head to stop reading and writing here presents itself more frequent and more louder and the number of reactions that I delete after writing them is growing in number.
The difference between me and spence is that what is good for me is good for me and that is all. The idea that what is good for me is also good for another never crosses my mind, never. I was an lauzy Christian hahaha without any desire to bring the good message of the savior to the world and why should I tell others about a path… let them walk alone in peace, wherever fate has placed them. They cannot save me and I cannot save them from whatever.
So be it

Hi Appreciative
You wrote
“Wouldn’t you want to cross-check your position, find out if you’re actually right, or whether you might be mistaken after all? I would, in your place. And the only way to do that is to marshall your arguments and your evidence and your reasoning, in defense of your respective positions”
No fixed position is right. We are continuously in motion, AR. But my approach to determining what is right or wrong is to look and listen, not to defend. If course, nothing wrong with stating my experience and interpretation of it. I wouldn’t elevate that to universal truth. What I believe in general about the benefit of meditation is simply from a. My own experience and B. A small mountain of hard medical research on meditation anyone can read for themselves, C. My love for my Master, and D. My general belief in self-improvement and personal growth as a lifestyle.
These are four related things but by no means are they the same. The research is already out there. The rest is subjective. That’s why I can’t say Um is wrong. I don’t believe he is.
But in parallel fashion to what Um wrote, beyond expressing my views, and leaving it to the reader to clarify for themselves their own current place in reality, I prefer meditation. Headed there now…

@AR
As the english version of “Healing Silence” by Mrs. Duran is not available I ordered the version in German.
Although I understand spoken German as easy as Dutch, written German has never been a pleasure.
Anyway, I went through two tirds of the book, the transcript of an interview that stretched out over a period of several weeks, I had to give up. The resistance and the confusion that did built itself up was to big to continue.
Reading along I was remembered of many individual incidents in my life that seem all related to what she is trying to convey.
It is all too confusing and I have had it.
What I have tried to write here over time, in the light of what she shares with the world that has happened to her, is even more true than I could ever have imagined to be true.
Nobody, for no reason, should ever be exposed to these things unless it has dawned upon him or her naturally, without any desire, let alone effort.
The word evil and liar in retrospect are sweet words.

Hi, um.
Difficult in terms of the language issue you refer to, or difficult in terms of the content itself? If that latter, then difficult how — because her ideas are complex and difficult to follow, or because you find her ideas personally uncomfortable somehow?
I’m a bit curious how you’re so sure that her ideas are necessarily true. Do you mean that they correspond with your own personal experience? Are you hinting that you’ve yourself had experiences not dissimilar to hers? If so I’d be curious, very curious indeed, to hear some more about them!
(Yolande’s website, as well as a Youtube search page of her talks, sit bookmarked directly on my main browser panel, at least for the present. But I’m afraid I’ve not actually watched/heard anything further from her so far, because I got distracted watching, of all things, the videos of the Depp-Heard trial that are floating around!! While you’ve been plowing your way through Yolande’s book, and in German no less. I guess I’m a far shallower soul than you —- although in my defense the trial does raise some interesting points about gender equations, about our general ideas and misconceptions and how they sometimes differ so much from reality, and also about the sheer incisiveness of some of the questioning there that’s kind of an object lesson in clarity of thought and solid evidence cutting through BS.)

@ AR
I really have had it AR with everything and more then ever do consent with the words of Wittgenstein and the biding in the intro of the book “cloud of unknowing”….
Do not speak about what cannot be spoken of and do not go there where you are not called to go.
I should have heed the words of my father:
I never studied, why would you.
These are formulas AR … it could also read I never was inspirituality, why would you
or heed the words of our beloved son:
Dad, do I have to know it??
Hahahaha
His answers are more profound an joyous that any book has ever given me
Wave ….. wave…. 🙂

@ AR
You deserve an answer although just small:
>> Difficult in terms of the language issue you refer to, or difficult in terms of the content itself? If that latter, then difficult how — because her ideas are complex and difficult to follow, or because you find her ideas personally uncomfortable somehow?<< She does her utmost best to explain to a journalist friend what she has experienced and how her experience has changed over the years. So no blame on her. Whether what she says is true or not is in fact material as her experience is not an integral part of the world we all share together. So she is just describing her experience and as that experience is related to how she perceives her self as a human being, the world she lives in and the different interactions, there can not be a question of truth. She had to become clear with something out of the blue and as it didn't stop with an stand alone experience she had to deal with it. Well in the course of my life I have had all sorts of stand alone experiences, that I was never able grasp properly but reading her story they one after the other popped up in my mind. She managed to make what happened to her understandable for herself, or better said, she, like people that have an NDE had to accept the experience because these experiences when you have them you are not able and not willing to get rid of them. She herself having no book knowledge of her self had no proper words and concepts to talk about her inner life. Later in the book she starts to use the concepts of Shri Nisargadatta. Her descriptions of what goes through her in the interior resembles a bit of the atmosphere I remember reading works of women mystics in the middle ages etc as Theressa of Avilla, and Hildegard of Bingen when the hint at the experience they name as "unio mystica" and has a very sensual undertone. Reading and listening to material of Shri Nisargadatta and others like him has always been frustrating to say the least. You see to talk about a path and a practice that leads to the achievement as proposed by that path, existent and true or not, is not that much of a problem. But to talk about the outcome without the path leading up to that outcome is, as all mystics say, not done and if it is done it is most unconformable, to use your words very uncomfortable.

Interesting.
That reminds me of a friend of mine. An elderly lady whom I know IRL. A perfectly respectable, typically upper-middle-class-bourgeois, and perfectly ordinary lady. A housewife, but well educated. When around middle aged, she went through a very difficult series of personal catastrophes — that I won’t detail, because they are personal to her — but that sent her whole well-ordered world crashing all around her. Which is when, out the blue, she had a sudden …experience.
I’ve talked long with her. She originally didn’t know what was happening to her, she thought in the midst of all her troubles she was losing her mind. Then, afterwards, she gravitated to interpreting, and further exploring, her condition within the paradigm of Kundalini Yoga. She ‘progressed’ a fair bit on that path. Afterwards, though, she came to both identify with as well as ‘follow’, in a manner of speaking, Ramana Maharshi (who, as you might know, is a kissing cousin, so to say, of Nisargadatta Maharaj).
So well, Yolande’s case seems very similar to hers. Except of course, this lady of my acquaintance quietly goes about her life, drawing water fetching wood, and very few know of her inner experiences. But to those very few who are interested, she does open up, if and when asked; but never, ever does she charge a single penny for any of it, never ever has she profited the teeniest tiniest bit off of her experiences. Which in my book directly makes her considerably more believable, because she simply has nothing to gain from subterfuge, not wealth, not loose change, not celebrity, not even casual empty fame.
———-
You’re right, life’s short enough, and one day soon we’ll be gone, all of us. Seen in that light, all of this sound and fury seems very blinkered. Retiring into unthinking unseeking languor and rest does seem tempting, and, who knows, may even be wise.

No one should be called a liar for stating their experience and beliefs.
Call someone a liar for being insincere, for stating things for some financial benefit, if you must. Though even there is quite a danger of inflating one’s own ego.
But just as revealing hidden mystical secrets, apparently, is verboten, then how much the sin of anger and accusation, publicly and openly, without apology, expressed?
No, I don’t think anyone needs nor should keep their experience secret, certainly not to themselves, and therefore, not to anyone else who chooses to listen.
It will automatically be secret to those without basis to understand.
Everyone should be absolutely comfortable voicing their experience and views, so long as they express these things naturally, no strings attached, just as an expression. Like any artist, who doesn’t need permission and never a censor.
Rather than try to fit the world into one track, we can celebrate the variety of spiritual, religious and human experience, certainly not attempt to squeeze it into our tiny one dimensional world view.
If there is a divine perspective, it encompasses all the others, and eliminates none, though that view would put these into a vastly broader perspective.
As for inner experiences, people have been expressing theirs for centuries. Even in modern film.
Douglas Trumbull, the special effects film maker, has done that for decades.
Watch Brainstorm if you want to see a reasonable attempt to visually depict what happens upon death.
Every artist expresses their experience as they should.

@ AR
Well if you or the Lady you spoke of are able to read German or French, you might go through that book and compare notes.
If the lady ended up with Shri Ramana Maharshi, and related to kundalini, her experiences might be not incidental but ongoing.
AR my whole life I have always been of good faith. Today I feel betrayed by the snake oil sellers and “angry” that it lasted so long before opening my eyes for the truth.
The truth is that, the keys cannot be found in the streets .. every moment you spend there I have come to realize is a loss.and weakens one’s natural powers.
Books should be burned.

“AR my whole life I have always been of good faith. Today I feel betrayed by the snake oil sellers and “angry” that it lasted so long before opening my eyes for the truth.”
Hi, um. Not sure what you’re alluding to. Do you mean your disagreement with Spence? Or is it something I said?
About Yolande’s commercialization of her experiences, since we were discussing her, I shared with you my overall opinion of her, including my discomfort with monetizing things of that nature. While also full-throatedly and repeatedly appreciating both her experience and insight, as well as her overall demeanor. I hope it isn’t what I said that has ended up apparently offending you?
(I ask because it isn’t clear to me what you’re referring to here, that seems to have upset you.)

@ AR
No, no AR I am not referring to you at all, I always felt at ease writing and reading with you, and it even has been instrumental in better understanding what goes on in my own house.
Nor is it Spence persé
Nor does it matter to me that somebody commercializes her experiences
I am frustrated and angry that it took me so long to understand the things I have been writing her and act upon them.
We are born to sing a song AR. An personal song that nobody can sing for us. Living in a society we have to learn how to sing, the rules of cultural singing. In the process we become so lost in the practice of singing according the cultural lore that we forget alltogether to use what we learned for the singing of our own song.
I learn ed, to talk from my parents, to think, believe and even feel as my teachers.
Most of the concepts I was given and accepted remained empty as i could not verify its content with mu own experience.. These days I would like to get rid of all this mental junk that serves no purpose. I am, I came to realize not born to know understand what god knows who has spend his whole life in, the many philosophical structures or religious belief systems and practices of mystic schools.
In short, if it was not put on my plate, many, maybe all things that I carry around in my mind, would not have ended there based upon my natural interests.
I would not have swallowed the many ideas I have been bombarded with since youth about becoming this and that, let alone better … I am no longer willing to allow my anger to arise otherwise I would tear my apartment apart from realizing how stupid i have been all my life to give others the possibility to put an carrot before my nose.
Read the 4 points by which Spence wants to life and especially the fourth one, … the change for the better. That he does so, is his business but that I wasted my time in listening to people like him infuriates me.
These days, bit by bit makes it clear what the effect of that mentality is upon humans ever since they live in groups
Before i explode here AR .. I stop and get myself coffee .. I should delete this outcry but let all rejoice.
So, do not worry about yourself, I appreciated converse with you

Hi Um
You wrote:
“Read the 4 points by which Spence wants to life and especially the fourth one, … the change for the better. That he does so, is his business but that I wasted my time in listening to people like him infuriates me.”
When you describe wasted time, isn’t that a desire to overcome the past? Overcome the impressions from the past?
You get to define improvement however you like, Um. If what I wrote pushes you to do that, you are welcome. No fee attached.
Of course, that only means I was the tiny grain of sand in the oyster. The pearl is your making, if you accept the grain.

@ Spence
The message to become better is and has been a curse for humanity.
With at the top idealists the like of Pol Pot.
They are the slave masters of the world.
They are the ones that make people walk according their wishes, guiding them with a carrot of snake oil.

Hi Um
You wrote
“The message to become better is and has been a curse for humanity. At the top idealists the like of Pol Pot.
” They are the slave masters of the world.
“They are the ones that make people walk according their wishes, guiding them with a carrot of snake oil.”
Not Abraham Lincoln
Not Mahatma Gandhi
Not Jesus Christ
Not Martin Luther King Jr.
Not John F. Kennedy
Not Bobby Kennedy
Not FDR
Not Sawan Singh Ji
Not Charan Singh Ji
Not Lord Alfred Tennyson
Not Mister Rogers
Not Carl Rogers
Not Carl Jung
Not Joseph Campell
Not Sir Isaac Newton
Not Elon Musk
Not Samuel Clemmons
Not Charles Darwin
Not Rumi
Not Shams
Not Dr. Charles Richard Drew
Not Marconi
Not Mozart
Not Freud
Not Steve Jobs
Not Alan Turing
Not Aryabhata
Not Plato
Not St. John of the Cross
Not Galileo
Not Van Gogh
Not John Lennon
Not Michaelangelo
Not Pythagoras
Not Descartes
Not Dag Hammerskold
Not Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord
Not Frank Lloyd Wright
Not Benjamin Franklin
Not Marie Curie
Not Linus Pauling
Not John Dalton
Not Mother Theresa
Not Desmond Tutu
Not Nelson Mandela
Not Rosa Parks
Not Maya Angelou
Not Anne Frank
Not Harriet Tubman
Not anyone who dreamed or encouraged others to dream.
They held no one back.
They encouraged hope, faith and effort.
Nihilism has imprisoned otherwise good people and made them useless.

@ Spence
Hahaha ……..
You see Spence, on entering our fathers house you had to leave behind your social cultural outfit and many of these names do not offer a pretty outlook in their natural nakedness.
You were raised in an other social-cultural environment.
Hahahaha\ … you would be liked to be listed as one of them…. you want to be seen heard and admired.

@ Spence
Nihilist ….that is correct as nothing of YOUR world is dear and near to me
Working for excelence Spence, in this world means automatically the degradation of others, other wise the would be no “better than ..”
We live in a dualistic universe Spence … and the higher YOU go, the more you can look down upon others, what makes you feel better.
It is all relative value Spence, nothing intrinsic.
Yes I do understand you like to keep up the “good” work. and the possibilities to “help others”
Het taught me this lesson:
Never go out of your way to help others.
but
whenever, walking your path of life,
someone asks for help, do give it .
There are all sorts of “help” and “helpers”
some are good,
some are bad,
realy bad or better said evil.
those that are proud to see what their left and right hand does.
Once the fear has gone many people and things become pathetic.

July is a long ways away

I’m on a roll…
One final thought—the biggest mistake any guru can ever make is to allow anyone to think they are God. It should be spelled out in no uncertain terms that they are merely a teacher and equal. It’s almost criminal to allow others to believe you’re God. We’re all equal to each other. God is something different altogether.

@ Sonya
In every community their are ministers. People go to them to ask for advice to overcome the problems they face, they even would ask them what colour of shoes to buy.
But if the minister is in problems and seeks help from them, they laugh as the minister must be joking.
That is the minister-syndrom
For asking help, the one that is asked and supposed to be able to render that help, must be without the need of help.
Perfect masters are created by the followers. That is a sine qua non to following them. No master will be able to make them see otherwise.
The followers do advocate their guru’s to the greater glory of themselves.
In a world of many masters, teachers etc .. of course the one you chose must be the best , and perfect hahahaha

Hi UM:
There is no dualism when the same truth others are attempting to express resonates within you.
Then the truth in you is all that matters, and you may honor that it resonates with others, too.
Nanak said “Don’t shout at the darkness, Light a Candle!”
Maharaji repeated this often.
And when President John F. Kennedy said exactly the same thing in his inaugural address, it was clear he had read it and it had resonated within him.
So it wasn’t actually about Nanak or Maharaji or Kennedy, but the truth they both felt in those words.
When John Lennon said we should imagine all people living and loving each other as One, that isn’t about John. It’s about the truth of the message.
Do not make these things personal, Um. Do not be insulted by the notion that you have something to learn.
Do not be insulted that the one you learn from is also learning as well, and may also learn from you.
Let go Caste and Creed, and follow what is in you. Let the world’s words filter down to the ones that resonate with your own truth, and love the fact that this Truth is not owned by anyone. Forget the coffee grounds. Enjoy the coffee itself. Where there is coffee, there must be grounds.
The grounds are evidence coffee is also there!
It is a universal wealth everyone may obtain. Everyone can grow.
You should enjoy that and not be insulted by it. There is no cost to it. It is free for all.
Just learn to attend to that, and don’t feel compelled to comment negatively on anyone else. That’s a bad habit and distracts from attention upon the good.

Hi Um:
I noticed you wrote this:
“He taught me this lesson:
Never go out of your way to help others.”
I’m sorry but he also taught, as does Baba Ji, and quite often, that we should all go well out of our way to help anyone and everyone.

@ Spence
He used to say: “The minds needs a lot of hammering”
So let us repeat:
THE EVIL OF WEALTH .. what it is all about.
It is not about the wealth itself.
Wealth being
=material
=mental and
=spiritual.
Nor is it about the way how the wealth was attained.
What iis EVIL is the way how it is used in relation to other human beings.
Taoist writers, the like of Lao Zi and his like spirited followers go at freat length to speak about that EVIL.
The describe it as being the root of much other human evil.
They start out with making it clear that only the SHOWING of wealth is the source of disaster, let alone what I have added here time and again,.
The suggestion that:;
The possession of a given wealth is a necessity sine qua non for living a human life to the full.
What makes it more evil, is the adition that help is needed and that they are willing and able to give that help.
Now let us turn to what a Chinese translator as to say in his Commentary to chapter 3 of the TAO TE CHING:
[ free randition of the commentaries]
1] When we glorify ACHIEVERS and set them aside for special treatment, people will COMPETE AGGRESIVELY and step over one another to ACHIEVE that glory.
[2] Similarly, when we place a high value on certain goods [ be they material mental or spiritual], there wil be those who plot to take by force or by trickery
In general, whenever we point at anything as desirable, a wave of disruption, ripples through society { as can be seen on this blog … hahaha]
People begin to think of ways to get more of the desirable thing, often at the expense of others [The raise of humans that want to help other humans, those that set up a shop as mental and spiritual snake oil selling, is staggering]
For that reason, a sagacious ruler refrains from setting aside certain individuals for glorification [ See your previous post Spence] OR .. designating certain [mental and spiritual goods as extremely valuable [ as is done by You Spence] and putting them on display [ as is done bu You spence , 777 and other minor sinners … hahaha]
These are surefire ways of stimulating material [ mental and spiritual] DESIRES, which is a bottomless pit.
[3] Although the sages empty people’s hearts of [material, mental and spiritual] DESIRES and reduce their AMBITIONS for FAME, GLORY or [material, mental and SPIRITUAL >>> W E A L T H <<<<, they also pay particular attention for their BASIC needs [ Coffee and apple pie]. As rulers, the sages see to it that the people enjoy good health and do not go hungry. As teachers, the sages give people teachings that provide spiritual sustenance and promote spiritual health [ I know, I know Spence but it excludes You .. you are the opposite of the one that initiate you as far as giving teaches to the public and in public] [4] When people follow the way of the sages, the few who scheme and plot [ those that start their own schops, twisting the teachings that were given to them] wil find themselves unable to utilize their repertoire [ as mental and spiritual snake oil sellers] of clever ploys [ No shortness of debating techniques here ... hahaha]. The governance of the sages leaves no room for their contrived tactics [ hahahaha ...] and everything falls into place peacefully and NATURALLY. So be it ... have fun Spence.

@ Spence
https://taoism.net/scholarly-attire/
That story is also funny in the way how dignataries of mental and spiritual wealth … make themselves seen in their outfit.
It is still done today …. hahahaha. by religious degnitaries and followers of sorts.
The mind needs indeed a lot of hammering

Translation Chapter 3 / Tao te Ching
[1] Do not glorify the achievers
So the people will not squabble
[2] Do not treasure goods that are hard to obtain
So the people will not become thieves
[3] Do not show the desired things
So …..their hearts will not be confused
Thus the governance of the sage:
[1] Empties their hearts
[2] Fills their bellies
[3] Weakens their ambitions
[4] Strengthens their bones
[5] Let the people have no cunning and no greed
So ….. those who scheme will not dare to meddle
Act without contrivance
And … nothing will be beyond control

Funny ….not only the [happy] faces but also the comments.
https://www.reddit.com/r/taoism/comments/v0goqb/actually_the_truth_is

Hi Um
There is no evil in a wealth we all share. Share, meaning no one can add to or take away from another’s.
Wealth that one can display that others do not or cannot have is I think what you are speaking of.
But let me hammer away as well at the point of spirituality, and science, that we are all fleeting beings of nearly identical genetics. The differences between you and I are practically, in the larger picture of creation, non existent.
The great wealth you have is based on your attention.
You have the capacity to act kindly. If you value anything greater than that, then let me suggest doing so makes no sense.
There is no sense in valuing what you cannot have.
But kindness you can have. Your choice.
And I don’t know of any spiritual wealth greater than that, Um.
So, displays of wealth are evil only to the extent that others are looking at them in that way. The sin of greed and attachments can be both among the wealthy display and the one seeing and craving.
But anyone who shares the wealth that everyone already carries is beyond greed and ego because there is nothing to covet. It is in everyone.
Internal experiences, at best, get us to that place. But you can fly there instantly merely by choosing to be kind. Choosing to attend to thoughts and acts of kindness. Not for the result. But the love in the thought and in the act of kindness itself is partaking of that wealth.
If you don’t believe my inner experiences then by that doubt I’m not displaying any wealth and there is no sin. You are making sure I’ve committed no evil through your doubt and dismissal. Thank you for that.
But if you believe my experience, then please note protect me against that sin by believing what I say, that the wealth that resulted from all that was kindness and her child, Compassion. She is is already within you, and there is zero cost. Just keep your heart and mind attentive to that.
The entire creation will bow at your feet when you bow before Love and Kindness. The whole creation submits itself to kindness, which is the force of life and love from which it, you and I
are made.

@ Spence
I have said whatever there was to be said about the evil of wealth and I am not going to repeat it.
And … I do not consider you to be a kind person, just to put it kindly …hahaha

Hi Um
If you are not aware of the wealth I am speaking about, let me tell you that it is infinite in each of us, and the birthright of every human being. You share the account with all of us. You only need faith in the treasure of love within your own heart. Perhaps you trust some other person’s expression more on this front.
You will find it written of in most the RSSB texts if you trust those. Rumi and Shams wrote about it extensively as did Mohammad and Jesus.
To become aware of something we must attend to it. But how can we do that if we aren’t aware of it?
Entirely understandable, Um.
And if we are aware of it, there is nothing of greater interest.

@ Spence
If I happen to go to the market I buy my stuff and go home.
Going through the market I do heard the shouting of those that try to attract buyers, but only as background noise.
As said .. you do not understand.

Hi Um
It is well enough to understand what is in ourselves. And that is a journey. We have our conditioning, our upbringing and our point of view. And then we have what we really are, underneath all that.
For some of us it is necessary to give voice to our own understanding along the way, knowing that view is changing as we advance.
For others it is necessary to point the finger of accusation at other people, as if we actually understood them. As if people were fixed entities.
In both cases a destiny is being fulfilled. I greatly prefer the former to the latter. In this sense I would agree that I don’t understand your need to do the latter. But I don’t think I’m conditioned to ever understand why someone would look outside themselves, or travel miles to the grocery store to tell others they are wrong when their fridge at home is packed.
Still, the market place exists not only for the buyer but the critic.
Fortunately I’m not in the market place and have nothing to sell. Which I guess could be disappointing to the critic, looking to dissect product, or complain about price.

@ Spence
Hahahaha … this blog is part of the market place and you are here as a seller

Hi Um
This is no market place because the ideas presented here, in Church of the Churchless are those of the individual, not of any organization.
No one is selling. There is no price attached to anything said.
Everyone has their own voice. If you disagree or agree that it’s all internal to the reader.
You must be speaking about someone else who is selling their organization’s system of belief for a price in an actual marketplace.
So, I’m sorry but I must return you message to the sender. Your message was sent to the wrong address.

@ Spence
Hahaha …. The evil of wealth, is in the showing
I have nothing to show but you do it, in each and every response to whomever posts here.

Hi Um
You wrote
“I have nothing to show but you do it, in each and every response to whomever posts here.”
Um, in every comment you and I both show a point of view. Nihilism and Optimism. You and i are both in the market speaking. It can’t be helped. You must be who you are and so must I.
But I suggest that at best we represent a point of view, not a personality.
One view is a closed binary system. Another, always leaves the door own and the light on.
In the closed binary system you are either right or wrong. The Nihilist insists that are right and the rest of the world is wrong.
In the open system of the optimist, we are all in transition, moving towards the light, learning, growing, developing, each from our own place and position moving forward. The opinions of the optimist are always changing, therefore, because they are always seeing things from a moving platform. . We aren’t there yet, have our flaws, but we are moving forward. Optimism accepts the mystery of the unknown because we are growing and don’t claim to know everything. Knowledge opens the door to more. The great unknown is part of the life of the optimist.
How strange that the higher our spiritual experience, the humbler we become. And the optimist is the humblest is all, submitting themselves to all that is unknown yet with hope and faith.
So that is the position I believe in and try my best to represent. Not some ideal of perfection. How could occur from these flawed vessels? But the fact that what is flawed is in refinement, works in progress, roots in the mud but our face, like the Lotus flower, facing the sun.
Seeing the sun in all its beauty is Wealrh, yes, but a wealth in each of us.

@ Spence
What you see and how you value what you see is just up to you. What matters is what you do next with it in the public domain the market. what makes it evil of wealth.
There is a difference in the way wealth is presented in the public domain between “old” money and “new”money “{the nouveau riche]. …. hahahaha

@ Spence
The “last word” as usual is ..YOURS.
Enjoy it.

Hi Um
You wrote
“There is a difference in the way wealth is presented in the public domain between “old” money and “new”money “{the nouveau riche]. …. hahahaha”
Old money is never self-conscious about these things, having never known anything else.
They have nothing to hide and rarely bother with appearances as you seem so concerned with.

777,
I think um is too straightforward to pretend to be someone else.
I started with the name ‘anami.’ Then I realized there used to be a ‘swami anami’ making comments, and I should be more original.
I’m the one who suggested keeping your feet warm to prevent night sweats.
The similarity between um and umami is suspicious, I suppose, but I promise, we’re two different people. However, we both seem to like the Tao Te Ching, and I’ve had a satori or two of my own. I’ve even spent time in the Netherlands and was fond of Douwe Egberts Aroma Rood.
Umami:
“a category of taste in food (besides sweet, sour, salt, and bitter), corresponding to the flavor of glutamates, especially monosodium glutamate.”
It’s a Japanese word meaning “savoriness.”
The fifth taste! Transcendent!

Apparently GSD has been flown to Singapore for treatment. He’s been there for a number of days.
His upcoming satsang tour outside of India has been cancelled, including most of his North American visits, as of yesterday.
I’ve been looking for mainstream news on this but haven’t found it, but satsang dates in Canada for sure have been cancelled

Well, it appears RSSB has finally updated their website. All satsangs in India and abroad have been cancelled, including the dera effective immediately until end of November. The update says GSD has been told to rest for his health.
Sounds serious if he’s cancelled the next 6 months of satsangs and initiations. Hope he recovers quickly from this.

Thanks for the update, Truth be known..

“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: “For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.”
James 1:22–25

Good God! Today was one of those days… most days are ok with maybe a hiccup or two, but today was one of those totally 💩 days.
I’m just sayin’ this cause people like to pretend that life is fine most of the time.
Personally, I find that life is 80/20. 80% of the time life is good. 20% of the time it’s a hot mess.
Oh well, tomorrow is another day…

The law of Karma vs. the law of Forgiveness.
Very different.

With forgiveness there is no ‘theft’ anymore
77

@ AR
What is the old bible all about if one had to put it in one phrase??
It is the story of humanity, narrowed down to one people under “divine” guidance.
It is also the blue print so to say of grammar.
In what sense?
Well: if A person says .. he pics an apple.
That phrase has an actor, an verb and one what we call in our grammar, the one that suffers the consequences of the verb, the action, “the suffering subject”
All history books and general said all written literature focuses on the ACTOR..
Even our judicial system focuses mainly on the criminal as actor. That means there is hardly room for what the action means for the one that suffers the consequences of the criminal actor.
It seems as if only the actor matters.
So history books speak mostly about how this or that, king, general etc conquered this or that and what were the consequenses of their activities for themselves …but…. hardly about those that suffered from these actions.
One could say that there does not exists written history about the “suffering subjects”
So back to the old testament…
The old testament tells a story of a people as been chosen by divine discretion.
I tells us that under the command and guidance of god everything is done to pave the path of his people.
You can read there about an almost endless stream of people, cities and individuals had to be destroyed for the welfare of that people. But no word is to be found what that meant for those peoples that were deprived of their rights, to live, to own, to flourish.
We have all sorts of words that makes killing justified .. in the name of god, country, flag, democracy, justice , you name it.
But for those that suffered from these “justified” actions these actions only mean that .. without their consent, their life was taken for no justifiable reason.
Now think AR what is ingrained in the minds of the people of the book, the three monotheistic religions of the world, that thy are free to destroy under divine guidance in order to pursuit their goals.
It is all to be found in the history books
Now have some coffee and go on thinking how this is related to this blog … hahaha
OH before I forget.
The book holds also the 10 commandments.
One of them says: “Ye shall not kill”
I does not say, you can kill “the bad” ones and spare the “good” ones
Bad and good can mean here anything, race, colour, identity etc.
Killing is ending the life without consent of the one that is killed
What does this mean?
Well these are the instructions for OTHERS than the actors.
Or, the actors can kill under divine guidance but the reactors have to face the wrath of the same divine power.
Well AR … that is in my point of view the effect of an “book” on the minds of the people that lives by that book, the three monotheistic religions.