A message for those thinking of leaving RSSB, Radha Soami Satsang Beas

Or time to stay. You decide.
Sometimes the most painful things are actually good for us.
Sometimes the most pleasant things can become distractions and addictions.

The point is to understand the philosophy in some depth, and to experience the process of meditation, which is the entire point of any school of meditation, including RSSB, Christianity, Sikhism, Hinduism, and Atheism. All wonderful in their own ways and also limited by the limitations of each human being.

The organization itself is filled with people and their personalities. They are like students in a school. The school may be great, but the some of the students may not. If you can find some fellow students who are decent people, you may have a chance to learn something in that school. If not, if it’s just all bullying and toxicity, then of course, a change of venue may be in order for you. It’s a personal matter. Is this challenging to me, and can I find the strength within myself to rise to this challenge? Can I grow stronger on what is really important to me, while learning not to take everything that happens around me, nor all the things people say, with so much reaction?

Even a difficult place can be the place for your own greatest personal growth. You decide.

If you need to blame someone for your personal situation, be careful, because the world is filled with people who choose to blame and this makes then and others around them very unhappy. People who can smile in the midst of difficulty are a true resource to those around them. Can you be that person?

Can you be a person who believes what they believe right in the middle of RSSB?

Last summer a man publicly asked Baba Ji, I’m gay. I’m in love with another man. I intend to marry him, and we intend to be happy together. Does this mean I can’t get initiated?”

And Baba Ji answered, “Of course you can get initiated. This doesn’t mean anything. Yes, if you are interested seriously in this path and can follow the vows, yes you can get initiated. Where you start is not so important as where you choose to go, and your efforts to do so.”

The real path of Sant Mat is spiritual. The outer conditions are the limitations of a human organization attempting to support growth on the path. And that means each person will have their own idea. RSSB is not one “religion” nor one “philosophy”. It becomes, unfortunately, a little different for each person as each of us tries to define it for ourselves. We each have our own version of RSSB, and you don’t actually need to prove yours is “right” to anyone. See Baba Ji’s comments above.

And that also means that what RSSB is for you ten years from now will be something different than what it appears to be today.

Make your own RSSB if you like, and see if you can create an environment to live in that, and encourage those around you to accept your version for you now, as you accept theirs for them.

Now you have a portable philosophy. You can go anywhere with that. Why not build it here first?

Or time to stay. You decide.
Sometimes the most painful things are actually good for us.
Sometimes the most pleasant things can become distractions and addictions.

The point is to understand the philosophy in some depth, and to experience the process of meditation, which is the entire point of any school of meditation, including RSSB.

So that when you reject something as false, it really is false, and not actually a denial of something that is already part of you, deep within. People do this all the time. They project onto others things they need to address within themselves. But not always. Sometimes they do need to set better boarders so that others respect them for who they are, or at least, leave them alone 🙂

The alcoholic family member gets the attention, the blame, but a good family therapist helps them point out that they all share in the problems, and by blaming it all upon the member they see as alcoholic, they are really using them to deal with their own disfunction, rather than having the ego strength to deal directly with that issue that they have. And when they learn to take that responsibility, they stop blaming and put their energies in self-development. The blaming was of no value, strangely enough, and not only didn’t help, but got in the way. They were blaming things they themselves had some responsibility for, and escaping dealing with themselves through blame.

But maybe you are not a fan of family systems theory (Murray Bowen).

And yet that is also a lesson for development within.

The organization itself is filled with people and their personalities. They are like students in a school. The school may be great, but some of the students may not. If you can find some fellow students who are decent people, you may have a chance to learn something in that school. If not, if it’s just all bullying and toxicity, then of course, a change of venue may be in order for you. Or you may be one of those students who realizes the trappings of a university are just to provide tools for self-education, and that you are indeed doing it alone, with whatever powers within you are there for you to build a relationship with.

It’s a personal matter. Is this challenging to me, and can I find the strength within myself to rise to this challenge? Can I grow stronger on what is really important to me, while learning not to take everything that happens around me, nor all the things people say, with so much reaction?

Even a difficult place can be the place for your own greatest personal growth. You decide.

If you need to blame someone for your personal situation, be careful, because the world is filled with people who choose to blame and this makes them and others around them very unhappy. People who can smile in the midst of difficulty are a true resource to those around them. Can you be that person?

Can you be a person who believes what they believe right in the middle of RSSB?

Last summer a man publicly said to Baba Ji, “I’m gay. I’m in love with another man. I intend to marry him, and we intend to be happy together. Does this mean I can’t get initiated?”

And Baba Ji answered, “Of course you can get initiated. This doesn’t mean anything. Yes, if you are interested seriously in this path and can follow the vows, yes you can get initiated. Where you start is not so important as where you choose to go, and your efforts to do so.”

The real path of Sant Mat is spiritual. The outer conditions are the limitations of a human organization attempting to support growth on the path. And that means each person will have their own idea.

RSSB is not one “religion” nor one “philosophy”. It becomes a little different for each person as each of us tries to define it for ourselves. We each have our own version of RSSB, and you don’t actually need to prove yours is “right” to anyone. See Baba Ji’s comments above. At different stages of personal progress, the path will be understood to be a little different. And it may be. What you are going through at any given time is going to be uniquely yours. But you might be able to share the joy and the pain a bit with your brothers and sisters because they are all going through their own issues. And each must find their own way forward. There is no single approach, though the destination is identical. And that is the destination for all paths seeking Truth in any form. In spirituality, we seek to become truth, not just label something on principle, belief or mere evidence. It’s not enough to speak truthfully. We want to merge with and become that pure truth that pervades and is the foundation of everything. But you can find that goal in most spiritual, and to some extent scientific pursuits. Even artistic pursuits. The artist wishes to become one with their art, the art inside themselves. And what they produce are merely the byproducts of that direct internal and external experience.

And that also means that what RSSB is for you ten years from now will be something different than what it appears to be today. It isn’t the same as it is for someone else.

Make your own RSSB if you like, because you will, because you have no other alternative. And see if you can create an environment to live in that, and encourage those around you to accept your version for you now, as you accept theirs for them. Be open minded. That’s how the old version morphs into the new one. Open minded within, in meditation, and among your friends and family.

Now you have a portable philosophy. You can go anywhere with that. Why not build it here first?

The Satsangis from India, raised in the tradition, sometimes have a difficulty separating family tradition and very old superstitions that have become their family member’s version of RSSB, with the actual teachings.

And some Satsangis from America and Europe raised in our traditions here have a difficult time separating the cultural surroundings of Sant Mat with the actual teachings also, so that as they reject an older culture different from their own, they inadvertently reject principles that are quite universal, even with mystic traditions in the west.

You can leave behind all the cultural trappings and be a great Satsangi, if you understand the difference. If not, if you need to define your spirituality by a specific culture, pick your culture.

The premise here is that RSSB forces young people to become initiates. It’s a false premise.

One must be at least 25 years old to request RSSB initiation. And the gurus of RSSB have all said that children should be left to make up their own minds about whether to become initiates. Try to find examples to the contrary in any of Charan’s books or any of GSD’s Q&As. You’ll have no luck.

It’s funny. I’ve been hanging out a bit on various “ex” religion sites, and have noticed that the disaffected can’t simply state the objective faults of the religion. They invariably have to amplify matters, extrapolate one negative incident into somehow applying to everyone, and speak with assurance that membership in said religion “ruins” lives. Sometimes they even make things up. It’s remarkable how many “exers” fall into this. I even recall one noted exer making this claim, and yet he keeps going to satsang in Irvine. Preaching is a fine thing, either for or against a religion, but he who preaches but doesn’t practice is leaving a scholarly legacy of mush.

The minds of many of today’s young people are spoiled by wokeness. They’ve been told that the way of true wisdom is to believe in nothing. We’ve all seen how well that worked. Young people are seeing it too. Now they’re increasingly turning to religion, because they’ve experienced that “everything is not OK” when they embrace nihilism. In any case, they have free will and can make up their own minds.

And with that I conclude my attack on free speech.

Time to leave—or time to stay? You decide.

Pain and comfort both teach us. What feels difficult can build strength; what feels pleasant can dull it.

RSSB, like any meditation path, exists so we can experience inner stillness for ourselves. Study the philosophy, practice the method, and see what it reveals. Science consistently finds long-term meditators healthier and happier—not because of belief, but because practice reshapes the mind.

When we react to disappointment, it helps to ask whether we’re rejecting truth or simply avoiding part of ourselves. Blame often hides what we need to face within. Real growth begins when we stop claiming to be victims and start using our energy for self-development, grounded in love, humility, and forgiveness.

RSSB is a school. Some classmates are kind; some are not. The challenge is to learn without becoming a bully—or blaming one. If the environment blocks your growth, you can move on, but make sure the lesson isn’t one meant for you to master inside first.

Every seeker lives a personal version of the path. As Baba Ji once said when asked about initiation from a gay man who intended to marry another man: “Of course you can be initiated. Where you start isn’t so important as where you choose to go.”

Each of us defines RSSB through our own effort and understanding. It evolves as we do.

Cultures differ—Indian, Western, or otherwise—but the essence is universal: meditation, compassion, and direct experience of the truth within. Ten years from now your RSSB will not look the same as today’s. That’s progress.

So—stay or go? Only you can know. Kites rise against the wind, not with it. Growth is often like that. Just make sure whichever direction you choose, you keep walking inward.

The path and the teachings aren’t bad, it’s just the present day Indian gurus that have no charm . Good thing we have American born gurus now to clear it and clean it and you don’t need sloppy seconds anymore for the children.

The reason that EXER Initiates leave RSSB,….not INITIATED curious book readers , under age 25, who obviously haven’t experienced any of those experinces that the Great Master, Sawan Singh shared in his Book, “Spiritual Gem, is because Exer Initiates no longer retain and keep one or more of the Vows that they promised they would keep, and practice when signing their Applications REQUESTING Initiation, not having Initiation forced on them.
Sooo, Exers, …..please step up and confess why RSSB has failed to deliver the promises made by Sawan Singh in his Book, that I have experienced and shared in my Blog Article I posted here, or COTC several times.
Have you abstained from Weed, Drugs, Alcohol, slaughtered dead flesh, shacking up with out being legally married in your own countries, and if not, abstained from promiscuity? And MOST important, did you quit Tithing your 2.5 hours per day seeking your Inner Master by the Meditation Technique shared to you at Initiation?
So. Instead of continuing to whine and play victim of abuse by RSSB, come clean and confess why you no longer practice what you promised to your RSSB Initiating Master.

Well Mr Sutherland, I am one of those that never had any of those experiences
but
that has never been a reason for blaming either the teachings, the teacher or my self as practitioner
.. there is no need for …

it has been my good fortune, that I was brought up in a certain way, so that I could listen to the late MCS, and enjoy his presence, his way of presenting the teachings, and insight in human psychology, that has enriched my life and understanding of human mind.

I never longed for anything else than what was presented by him and could be digested by me.

This are all reasons why I need not to step into discussions about the so called “truth” of anything and anybody, find proof, defend or praise anything or anybody .. let alone advise anybody.

If following the teachings of RSSB is a pain in the ass….who is responsible for it?

First, let’s look at the most common reason why people get disaffected with RSSB. While I can’t pinpoint one reason that applies to everyone, I’d like to suggest what I think is the chief problem with this religion. It’s the one requirement of this religion that, more than any other, makes practicing RSSB Sant Mat onerous.

I don’t think it’s the vegetarianism requirement, or even the doctrine of the Guru as a Godman. What makes practicing RSSB Sant Mat burdensome is the demand for at least 2.5 hours of daily meditation.

As almost anyone who was ever initiated into RSSB or its related sects knows, the requirement of 2.5 hours of daily meditation is a considerable problem. Do it successfully and it’s a major sacrifice of one’s time, a sacrifice that detracts from personal, social, and family obligations. And not do it successfully, not do the full 2.5 hours, and the initiate feels the shame of betraying the “promise” he made at initiation.

At this the faithful might say that the 2.5 hour daily meditation requirement is a traditional part of Sant Mat. But actually it’s not. The 2.5 hour rule was apparently started by Sawan Singh.

In the RSSB book Spiritual Letters, you’ll find that Jaimal Singh never mentions anything about a daily requirement for time in meditation. To the contrary, Jaimal repeatedly advised initiates to meditate daily, but stressed the importance of the quality — not the quantity — of their meditation. Jaimal even says that a few minutes of sincere meditation on the sound is all that’s necessary for the aims of Sant Mat to be realized.

Then Sawan Singh became guru of RSSB, and at some point in his tenure decided to create a new rule: Initiates must vow to give at least 2.5 hours a day to meditation. We can guess that Sawan made this innovation for organizational purposes. But while this new time requirement added structure, it also sowed the seeds of neuroticism.

Sant Mat’s foundational texts, like Sar Bachan (Shiv Dayal Singh) and Prem Patra (Rai Salig Ram), stress consistent daily practice of Surat Shabd Yoga but without a fixed duration. Rai Salig Ram suggested around 4 hours daily in multiple sittings as ideal for progress, noting that even 20–30 minutes per session builds momentum if done regularly and without distraction. But Salig Ram also stated no strict time limit can be prescribed, prioritizing quality and inner bliss over rigid quotas. Modern Soami Bagh guidance, per their official site, focuses on daily satsang and internal listening to the Sound Current but omits any 2.5-hour mandate.

If there’s a Sant Mat 2.0, it began with Sawan Singh.

Charan Singh didn’t help matters any. He stressed the importance of the 2.5 hour time requirement to all questioning initiates. Initiates complained to Charan that this time requirement was far more than they bargained for when they got initiated. Charan never cut them any slack and reminded them of their “promise.” Quite ironic, given that Charan admitted that he often failed to meditate before he became RSSB guru.

And so with Sawan, and abetted by Charan, RSSB Sant Mat shifted from prizing the qualitative experience of meditation to an obsession with the quantity of meditation. Given that 2.5 hours of meditation per day is an unsustainable ideal for most people, it’s little wonder why some find trying to be a good initiate a frustrating battle.

Well Sant,

You are right about the quality vs quantity.
But if the quality is not enough it van be compensatie with quantity.
For the people in the east, given their worldview, that may be a sound advice … Great master said …
[1] Attraction => concentration
[attraction being the inner calling, some love and evotion]
[2] Concentraten => attraction
[Concentration being long sustaine effort]
He would give an example that “in licking a tasteless stone long enough, it would make the tongue bleed and give taste.

But .. that said … this advise might create things worse for people in the west, being raised in a Christian culture and with a Calvinist undertone .

After all practitioners tend to practice as they were raised ..there are american, born again satsangis, European satsangis in many sorts ..if you want to understand it delve into their cultural and social background ..it is all a matter of psychology. Some social cultural backgrounds are for that very simple reason NOT conductive for an easy and simple .. go with the flow

The indulgens in the vows, people walking around with lists in supermarkets to avaid forbidden food ..haram, not cosher etc..is never found with Indians at least that has been my experience.

To finish … Indian classical music is performed without a conductor, alone of in small settings and above all without sheet music … they are judged on basis of their capacity to play from the heart and not if they manage to stick tu the rules.

Sant Mat was developed in India and for the Indians.

And Sant … why would the great master and also his grandson, left no occasion unused to point to the “hill people” mostly people living a simple life in a simple way?!

Just have some coffee and ponder over the mental, intellectual and emotional difference between them and the average satsangi in the west.

Are they ever approched by their teachers about worries, analitical mend sets etc??

And to what does that simran serve but to calm down these mental activities.

If the advise, this practise to slow down, is used in the same way that caused their minds to be full of these worries etc etc it makes things only worse.

Enough, enough

Give this a thought-

Initiated for over 40 years from Gurinder Singh, the past 15 or so years I had doubts with the physical. I then smoked a little weed, had an occasional beer, did a few psychedelics (to compare experiences), and when I sat, I was still able to experience within. To me, it was about being totally relaxed and able to let go. I now occasionally sit, but am careful with his Dhyan. My relationship with GS has changed and I’m working thru the disappointment of knowing friends and co-workers are kinder and friendlier than the Guru. Any day I can still take a deep relaxed breath, I’m good. Yes it’s painful but I’m moving forward. The self inquiring of Who is disappointed and Who is seeing/feeling this is my goal. Enough said for the time being……. Letting go is key.

The most important question that should be asked, is, “WHY” did we choose to be initiated, in the first place, in to Sant Mat, or the Radha Swami Sect, regardless of who we ended up being initiated by. As for me, I , as a Born Again Christian, already felt I’d EVENTUALLY wind up in “Heaven”, but after reading Julian Johnson’s book, The Path of The Masters,……..which enticed me to further investigate, RSSB Books, in particular, left me “subscribing” to the teachings of Transmigration, or, that unless I could find a LIVING, Master, to initiate me, I very well could be reincarnated in to lower species, below human births, instead of just Reincarnation to another , or more, human births, before I’d eventually reach my Christian Heaven, which would be only by “Faith”, as taught by the Apostle Paul, in the New Testament Bible. So, being horrified that I very well could end up in any lower specie within the “Wheel of 8,400,000” possible lower species, as clearly defined in both Sawan and Charan Singh’s books, ………I suddenly felt absolutely COMPELLED to seek Initiation by some, …..any,…..yet unidentified Living Master who would accept me as his Disciple, and save me for certain, from descending back to the Wheel of 84! I don’t know about other Initiated readers here, but already haven’t reached my mid 40s in life, and started beginning to doubt lots of my prior comfort levels of meeting the Master Jesus, the Master of my Christian Eternal Salvation, I wondered how I’d recognized a Master I had never seen before in the physical, or even in authentic photos.
So, of course, after reading Kirpal Singh books, where he offered initial Light and Sound , at Initiation,..proving the Path to Heaven now called Sat Nam of the Sikhs, or Sach Khand of the RSSB Masters, and their break away branches such as Kirpal’s, I wanted initiation “”Insurance” from Sawan,…but he was already dead. So next choice had to be either by Kirpal, who was also already dead,….I started really feeling lost, or shit out of luck, until,………Sant Thakar Singh rolled in to So. California, speaking at various centers, where He offered initiation after his 30 minute talks to any one, on the spot, with out asking us to take any Vows. Plus, he claimed to be Kirpal Singh’s Successor, so then, the Living, Walking Master of the Planet Earth in person!! Well. As most of us at his meetings thought, what have we got to loose by accepting his offer? So, as I have clearly described here in the past, I took his actual Initiation in July 1988, and have clearly described my results in other posts.
Then, fast forward to Feb. 4, 1990, to my desperate attempt to finally be initiated in to RSSB by Proxy, by Charan Singh’s Western Rep. Dr Roland de Vries, an Ex Christian Th.D. as I also was, at the time, who had given me , my final interview before forwarding my Application to Charan for his acceptence. I have also posted that history from then to now, very clearly.
Sooo, ……..as I was told by prior seekers,…. The Proof of being on the Path are the sign posts that Sawan Singh described, Kipal described, and of which I have verified experiencing in my prior posts here.
So, ….take what I-have shared, or leave it . At my advanced age of close to 84, I no longer feel compelled to try to convince ANY ONE of ANY THING!
Caveat Emptore

Truthfully, I think even age 25 is too young to take such serious Vows asked to be taken, by RSSB Lineage of Masters of Initiations. 25 year old brains are not developed enough to even remotely realize their responsibilities of maintaining their human forms, much less, their wives and children’s, if married by age 25, as I was at age 19! Looking back, I know I could have never maintained my Sant Mat life style, until I had already experienced adult life responsibilities that are necessary to maintain our human forms. By age 35, I knew that I was lost in sin, and needed a Savior to guide me. Which is when I had my Born Again experience that put me on the Path of Soteriology that I am still on. I am still a work in progress.

“Make your own RSSB if you like, because you will, because you have no other alternative.”

Hey, Spence.

I came around to that approach a long time ago. Did it work? Well, not really–at least not the meditation part. I wish submission were more my style; however, your statement validates me, so maybe it’s time to have another go at it.

In “Closer to Heaven,” the Pet Shop Boys asked the musical question, “Does darkness end in light?” ‘Make your own RSSB’ and ‘Submission’ seem like polar opposites, but maybe not?

Just look at the responses from the satsangis, to someone who wants to leave. If is is their response to words on a page to a total stranger on the Internet, you can imagine the response in person from the community or family or relatives or sevadars or leaders. The comments just prove the point of the article.

@ Anon Anon

As long as people are scared, fear the wrath of ?? .. god, the guru or whatever , social negative reactions.. most will tend to react with negative emotions.
BUT …
If they had carefully listened to the late MCS and properly digested what het said, they would not do so, in contrary.

I remember asking him permission to go to Japan into a Zen monastery … he did not gave permission, he never did and always let his followers decide for their selves, but explained in detail what the Sant Mat meditation is all about and closed of with writing that I could make up my own mind and that …HE … only wished me to be happy.

And .. one evening in Indian gentleman joining the Q&A session with us people from the west, stood up and asked whether it was the duty of the parents to raise them as “sat sangis to be” …haha .. you should have been there and heard the of the audience upon his ..FORCEFULLY … answer … NO ..Definitely NOT … hahaha .. they were shocked.

Then he extensively explained what the duty of the parents was and stressed again that it was a personal affair and nobody should interfere with the choice of the children.

And .. upon his visit in London … a young man came forward and asked to be initiated … the late MCS did not say yes or no but asked with a given lightness in his voice ..did your aunt send you upon the boy answering no , he came with other possibilities of people that gould hace influenced him and as the answer was again and again no .. he said he should finish his education first and ask later.

But you are right, when it is an issue it can become a complicated psychological problem

And Anon Anon

There is not a Sant mat 1. 0 and 2.0 …nu … there is certainly a path taught by a teacher / guru and one spread by his followers based upon how they were able to understand and digest these teachings..

Teachers have always had to “defend” themselves againist the on going pressure of their own students to change the teachings according their understanding and liking.

They teach DAYAL mat and not KAL mat … they will stress what is good and bad for a human being and point at the consequences, but they never speak of punishment or reward.

Yes, the rules can indeed be strict when under an Eastern Master. It’s understandable to not want all those restrictions and rules that must be followed, yet still want to be connected to the Audible Life Stream. Fortunately there are some Living Masters in the west who can serve as the Outer Master.

One example that comes to mind is joining Eckankar. The lineage of their Living Master comes from Kirpal. With Eckankar, you get the benefits of a Living Master who can connect you with the Shabda, while not having any rules you must adhere to. By the way, Eckankar has a brand new Living Master. Great time to join what is the most prominent Light and Sound following in the United States.

That might be a way to test drive the Light & Sound Path , with out needing to even go Veggie. Especially for young people who have not experienced much life yet. It could be consided as like buying a used Toyota , using it for economical transportation to local areas, while getting further education, and possibly marrying, and starting a family. Then if any light or sound is experienced at all, using Eckankar meditation technique, and the mediator becomes bored with traveling to only local areas in a worn out used Toyota, and the Eckankar master isn’t delivering the promises,……then one might be ready for an Upgrade. An upgrade to a new Luxury SUV with 4 Wheel Drive, powered by a highly qualified Eastern Sant Sat Guru with the highest quality reviews and testimonies by his initiated followers, like Charan Singh had, and STILL has, by many of his Initiates ( not all), but if not highly recommended, than at least, with the least amount of known negative baggage.
In fact, I seriously investigated Eckankar when I was living in Connecticut, before moving to California. Then, after I arrived in California, I communicated with a seasoned Eck Satsangi, who actually, looking back, was the most knowledgeable man I ever met, about the path. I asked his advice where I should seek initiation , and he gave me good solid advice. But, I was still too much of a full blown Christian Fundy at that time, and had still not even subscribed to Reincarnation yet! So, I lost track of the kind man , and as reported, took my easiest test drive with Thakar Singh, until upgrading to Charan Singh, but just 4 months before he left his body.
The Christian Bible records that, ….”The Last shall be First,…and the First, shall be last!”
Of course, there is an important issue involved, regarding being lucky enough to be initiated by a Sant Sat Guru. You must be Marked! Other wise,…….well, …….you’ll need to ask those here who are not.

Sant64, Insightful post, thanks. My main issue about the 2.5hrs is that RSSB initiates are conditioned to believe this is a directive directly from God, and if our meditation is not concentrated then we are hopeless and we have failed to please God. This often isn’t explicitly stated but the effect is still there.
I suppose it is better to follow something if one feels totally lost, but independent thinking is surely much more authentic.

@ Graeme

If people cannot do a thing that is good for them or abstain from one that is bad for them based upon their own understanding, than fear or love for the divine can help to make them do so.

Many of the do’s and don’ts of the main religions are in fact just common sense and beneficial if taken to heart.

Personally I believe that there is no God that is interested in what humans do or not do and can you do whatever suits you and bear the consequences.

The founders of religion, had no need of divine commands, they just were inclined to do certain things because they just liked it.
Swami J is said to sit for meditation hours and hours a day and for many years … against that background, 2,5 hours are a bare minimum … and yes ..if you do not like meditation and are just doing it for the fruits of it, 2,5, hours can become a millstone around your neck …and the simple way out this problem ..is to make yourself believe that there is something wrong with the practice.

That too, by the way, is alright ..it is all a psychological game.

We sentient beings are given life for free, it is NOT up to which and what we spend that gift so much as to HOW.

Washing dishes can easily become sheer hell for some kids and others do the same with a smile and are even glad they could be of help.

We humans MUST give away what was given to us ..given is not to say there is a giver but to stress that we did not create it … and if we HAVE TO we better chose a thing we love to give to and if we are not free but are “forced” we too can use that same attitude.

There is no God that cares what you do ..but YOU are certainly reaping the fruits of your own actions … and live becomes easily a hell if you make yourself believe that everything is imposed upon you by OTHERS and others become your enemy ..even God and gurus can become your enemies like your own parents, teachers at school or your own government and the institutions etc etc etc etc.

And Graeme

Let me give an illustration

Brought up in a generation where it was believed that all “normal” men would smoke, I taught myself to smoke, supressing my own disgust and the PAIN of inhaling the smoke into my young lungs and overtime got used and addicted like all “normal” men. Forced by circumstances being in the Ashram of the late MCS, I gave up smoking from one moment on the other and never did it again.

When I came to learn about eastern spirituality, what was completely new in those days, I came also into contact with Rosicrucians, Theosofists, followers of Rudolph Steiner etc etc all people that can and do make quite a drama of smoking, what i was still doing in those days and they would look upon you and act accordingly …to “dirty” to come close to.

So that being the background now the point.

After getting involved with Sant Mat and giving up smoking, I promised myself never to treat people mas they had treated me with regard to smoking. Every smoker that came to visit me was allowed to smoke and I even bade them not to smoke outdoors as some would offer to do ..all against the will of the other family members that were not used to the smell of smoke.

They complained and demanded from me an explanation as to why guests were allowed to do whatever I petsinaly did not do in our own house.

Well here is the answer:
Look, it is up to me who I let pass the door of our house and I have to accept them as they are, or not let them in. They are our guests ..AND … they are addicted. They KNOW that they are addicted, they also KNOW that it is harm full for their bodies, they also know that I do not smoke ..if they cannot quit for them selfs for their own good and welfare ..who do you think that I am that they would do it for me?! and … If they are gone we open the window and within a couple of minutes the house will be filled again with fresh air.

Hahaha I am certainly not a Rumi, just an goffeedrinket but Rumi was right when he said .. come as you are, but please do come, you are welcome.

If you want to do whatever all gods of the world have forbidden just go ahead, nobody cares, certainly none of these gods, they are not interested in you at all … AND ..bear the consequences.

Because that is what happens for all of us and for everything in this universe.

@ Spence

What I wrote today are all simple things, things that speak for themselves.

No need, to use eloquent and logical phrase, no education is needed, nothing to attain or gain, nothing to change for the better.

No need of spiritual teaching and practice, no need of inner experiences.

These are all simple things that speak for themselves

NO -thing is needed

Well..maybe some coffee and some listening to another human being that pointed at “simple things” …in a … simple way. …and hinted at “living a natural life in a natural way”

I wish myself to live long enough to see and act upon it.

And Spence …

It is certainly not an advertisement of turning ones back upon,

WEALTH … yes wealth, of every kind ..material, mental and even sptiritual

Nor an advertisement against science, eloquent speech and writing, or expressing ones self according the rules of logic or investing in this or that social or cultural endeavor

To illustrate this:

Ir is said that an american lady in the possession of millions of dollars came to the dera having given everything await to the poor and needy based upon the saying that it is as difficult for the rich and the wealthy, to enter the domain of the heavens as for the camel to pass through the eye of the needle.

Upon puting before the late MCS what she had done ..he said “Sister what have you done … this country is already filled to the brim with poor and needy people, ..now you have added one to it ..who is going to look after you tomorrow?

It is clear that the lady could have invested her money and use the revenues for the poor and the needy if she was called to do so.

So nothing wrong with WEALTH … I hate to leave this blog behind one day as one that is not able or willing to rejoice in others having the wealth they need to live …

crows do not envy the colorful feathers of other birds .. they have enough in being black and and cawing as they do and the crow does so think for a good reason … hahahaha

@ EXrssbZA

>> GSDs actions have already caused untold damage to the sangat worldwide.<<

Yes because people did and do attach their own meaning and value to the actions of another person, a person that has nothing to do with the way THEY execute their life and make that person responsible for what the do, think and feel.

That is how humans do it in all relationships ..blaming and praising the partner

Anyway .. whatever I know of him has never had any influence on me drinking my coffee.