I’m on a roll with guest blog posts from an anonymous person who sends me messages via this blog’s Contact form about Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), the India-based religious organization headed up by a guru that I belonged to for 35 years. This is the third such blog post in a row.
I found this one especially moving because it mentions me. I read that part aloud to my wife. I choked up a bit as I did so, almost feeling like crying. This doesn’t happen often to me. It happens when something has been bottled up in me, maybe something I didn’t even know was in an emotional bottle, then it gets released unexpectedly.
The discussion of RSSB’s cult’ness also appealed to me, though without a strong emotion. For those 35 years (the message below says 17 for some reason) I didn’t believe I was in a cult. But as I wrote in “I now consider that I was a cult member for 35 years,” reading a definition of a cult changed my mind.
Here’s the message from my anonymous correspondent. Enjoy. By the way, if you click on the second link below about RSSB FAQs, the mention of “we are not a cult” is in the RSSB Organization section.
RSSB cult says “We are not a cult”
RSSB own website examples saying “we are not a cult”
1. Cults, Gurus, Religions, and Misconceptions – RSSB Satsangs & Essays https://share.google/xSGQG4lqO5gOgGwlm
2. Frequently Asked Questions – RSSB https://share.google/97H6axakdJYdSVcEkBiggest red flag.
There’s a saying which says “if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck… it’s a duck”.
“If it looks like a cult, feels like a cult, acts like a cult, has online allegations of ex members saying its a cult, has to put out its own publications saying ‘wE aRE nOt a cULt’….. it’s a cult”.
The fact they’ve had to address it themselves shows they’re aware of the claims. They’ve had to speak about it. They’ve had to put it in writing. They’ve had to document it. Naturally they say they aren’t one, of course.
You dont have to SAY “we’re not a cult”, if you aren’t. You have to say this when you ARE one.
Keep speaking up. Keep sharing. As long as we keep talking to each other, their stronghold weakens.
For me, the “wake up call” started with Brian and hearing his story. How deeply involved he was with RSSB, how he left, that it was possible to do so, and witnessing that he continued to live his life just fine. I didn’t know it was… even possible. A life outside RSSB? What does that look like? Like Gloria Gaynor says: “At first I was afraid, I was petrified, kept thinking I could never live without you by my side”. Over time it became “Did you think I’d crumble? Did you think I’d lay down and die. Oh no not I, I will survive!”
This is hard because you’ve been taught bad things will happen without a guru and he’s the one saving you.
Amidst a sea of brainwashed followers, strong community leaders, and a powerful “guru”….
You just need one example.
You just need one voice.
It took ONE person.
That’s all it took.
Literally just one regular dude called BRIANHe set up a random little website with like 2 or 3 posts on it, talking about how he left RSSB. Every satsangi was talking about it. Ironically, that’s where I heard it from. I remember when it was first published, it wss the first agenda item of any conversation. Senior sevadar cradle satsangis would go:
“Did you hear about that guy? Brian? He’s a guy who was on the path 17 years, wrote a book, even gave satsangs. He left, and he talks about it openly.”
And the young ones? “Yeah I’ve already read it”.
Brian is the only person more omnipresent than the guru himself in the satsangi community. He isn’t an “antichrist” or a “traitor”, some may say he’s a “lost soul and we hope he comes back to the path”. For many it’s silence, because they don’t know how to address it. The thought of people leaving is unheard of. It’s the elephant in the room.
I remember hearing people sometimes stand up at Q&A and announce to GSD they would be leaving RSSB. They often did so with genuine connection and genuine emotion, calmly and quietly and sweetly. No big showdown or shocks, they just spoke about how they felt it wasn’t right, and how they wanted to leave. They had already made their choice in their mind.
They genuinely just wanted to communicate it to their long term spiritual master their guru, no doubt who they felt connected to, perhaps out of courtesy or respect after years of following, or maybe to seek comfort or reassurance about their concerns, or maybe “have their moment” with him, have that final goodbye. Everytime GSD’s response was the same.
He would have a straight emotionless face, respond with a voice booming like thunder, would attack and criticise them for leaving, shouting the spiritual ideology at them, pointing out their failure of not being strong enough to follow or not commited enough. They often just looked at him hurt, wistfully nodded, smiled, said nothing, and walked away, wounded and sad.
I knew that was a person looking for comfort, connection, acknowledgement, or a goodbye moment. They never got it. He never said goodbye. He never said come back. He never said you’re always welcome. He didn’t even acknowledge what was happening. It was the equivalent of burying your head in the sand. He never showed any kindness or comfort or reassurance or warmth ever.
Those “leavers” (and there were quite a few over time) never spoke to him that way and they were always so dignified. It was clearly a last resort for them and took them time to get there. And him? “Next question please”. As if they were never there. He wasn’t even human towards them. He was like a wild lion attacking prey. It was subhuman. His eyes were dead. It was frankly psychopathic.
And they would be the questions everyone would talk about afterwards.
“Did you see the man/woman who left?”
“Yeah…”
“Did you see his response?! Woahh!”
“Yeah he rained down on them!”
“Yeah he didn’t mince his words!”
“Yeah he takes no prisoners!”
“Yeah he’s not watering it down for anyone!”
“They weren’t strong enough!”
“Yeah its their fault!”
“Why did they need to do all that?”
“If you want to leave just leave quietly!”
“He isn’t going to make it easy for you!”
And so on….But sometimes you’d get a random person at Q&A saying
“I’m new and I just stumbled here, I took a wrong turning down this road, and I’ve been hooked ever since, I haven’t been able to stay away”GSD would always smile, call this person “brother” or “sister” and speak warmly, and say things about how “they’d found the right path” and how “life led them here” and “it was meant for them”
And the satsangis would go: “Did you hear that person who found us? WOW!! They felt “The Pull!”. And no doubt they were met with a lot of lovebombing from everyone. People would go up to them:
“We are so happy you’re here!”
“Welcome!”
“Come and join us!”
“You’re gonna love it!”
“Do you think the path is for you?!”
“Tell us again how you found it!”
“You must talk to X! X come over here!”
“We’re going to see you here a lot, we know it!”
“Just keep coming!”The tactics are hugely different.
Try to join RSSB: Lovebomb
Try to leave RSSB: DARVO Deny Attack Reverse the Victim and OffenderThese are classic abuse tactics and only a cult does this.
It is why people are so afraid to leave, or even leave openly, let alone loudly like Brian does. If that’s the approach from the leader, imagine the community pile on? The emotional and mental and verbal attack/abuse is frightening and the only next step IS physical abuse/attack. People are afraid.
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What a very interesting and unusual narration.
So, according to this, numerous Indians over the years have got up to a microphone at a public Q&A and publicly announced they were leaving the RS Sant Mat path.
I must confess I have some skepticism regarding the accuracy of this, so if anyone can corroborate this I would be grateful.
I am skeptical for numerous reasons:
1. Firstly because Indian Agra and RSSB initiates seem to rarely get initiated alone and their involvement is usually as part of an extended family of initiates. Consequently the fact that their collective reputations would be seen to be affected by a public disavowal, I assume this would be a deterrent and therefore most dissatisfied followers would not announce it to their own families let alone the entire sangat. I.e. they would keep their ‘spiritual divorce’ private. If I am wrong on how this works please do explain.
2. Secondly, I understood that getting access to a microphone at public Q&As at Beas is difficult and is operated by a lottery system once a week (after Sunday satsang): viz. applicants must give their names which are then put into a ‘hat’ and picked at random.
3. Finally, I also understood that getting permission to stay at Dera is quite a bureaucratic rigmarole for Indians (it isn’t a simple digital system like how it is for RSSB westerners). Add to that the cost and inconvenience of travel there to Dera Beas, this makes me wonder how many dissatisfied initiates would go through all that, plus open themselves to the natural concomitant ostracisation after their announcement. How many Indians would put themselves through all that, just to be honest with their now ex-guru?
All of those restraints make me skeptical that this is a common occurrence.
—————————
On a personal note: I only know of one person who had the courage, honesty and sincerity to announce publicly that they were leaving ‘the path’. It was an elderly western lady from Brighton who was an initiate of Charan Singh from the late 70s early 80s. During the guruship of Gurinder Singh (around 2003) she went to a microphone after satsang and informed Gurinder that despite leaving with fond memories of her time with Charan and his sangat she had recently decided it wasn’t for her any longer. Gurinder didn’t seem to understand her and gave her an odd answer that seemed to me to have nothing to do with what she had said. So she replied summarising what she had previously told him and basically said “thanks and goodbye’. She was very calm, non-judgemental and polite. But again, judging by his second short reply, Gurinder didn’t seem to understand.
That is the only time I have witnessed someone publicly announcing to the living guru that they were leaving. So if this IS a more regular occurrence in India amongst Indian satsangis I would be grateful for confirmation in some way.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks buddy. This is really smart. We learn more when we talk. It is interesting you say that ‘people rarely get initiated alone and their involvement is part of an extended family of initiates’, there’s ‘public disavowal’ there’s ‘ostracism’. It does align with what Brian and others say, that you can’t really leave RSSB. It reminds me of Brian’s post on ‘RSSB and honor culture’ on here.
I see you’re talking about India centres… RSSB is global and the RSSB system is totally different elsewhere, it’s way more restricted in India and elsewhere there are way more freedoms. In Western countries basically anyone can go up and ask a question just like that. Westerners do get up and some do say they’re out and going back to their own religion.
It is REALLY interesting you recall an incident of someone getting up and leaving yourself. Do you remember anything else? It is SO interesting you note ‘guru didn’t really understand’. The post said something similar, ‘guru was burying his head in the sand’. What did he say to her?
Hi Anon. Thanks for your reply.
I don’t clearly remember his answer. It WAS about two decades ago. 😉
I vaguely think it might have been about dealing with doubt. I do remember it ended by affirming that she should just keep doing her meditation. But as she”d just clearly told him she was not going to be doing ANY from then on as she didn’t believe the philosophy nor the Sant Mat rhetoric around it, that was rather jarring in its inappropriateness.
As I personally knew the lady I was surprised to hear she was ”leaving” as she had never said anything to me ever about any doubts or misgivings. Secondly as I was expecting a reply that responded to that announcement of departure I was expecting his reply to eventually come to the point about THAT. So when it never did, that was initially confusing. The natural reaction is to think: ”I am not yet understanding his reply”. It was only when he got to the end of it that the growing realisation he hadn’t understood was confirmed. So I had a combination of suprise, critique, mild frustration and disappointment with his reply. Disappointment for her, as she had expressed herself so bravely, pleasantly, non-judgementally and clearly TWICE and yet didn’t get a response that in any way that I could see was an appropriate one. Disappointed for her that THIS was going to be the ending of her time on the path of surat shabd yoga, viz. a lame, non-answer. And finally disappointed with Gurinder for not having the ability to hear her and respond appropriately to her actual situation.
At the time I assumed that maybe he’d never heard someone do that, and so therefore he couldn’t take it in. Which — after he’d missed it again after the second explanation by her — I thought was a regretable sign of a certain rigidity of mind. The only excuse I could come up with him for it was that English wasn’t his mother tongue. But by 2003-ish — after thirteen years on the job — that seemed a rather weak excuse.
Getting back to your message to Brian, you didn’t really assuage my skepticism. Can you answer these questions for me:
1. If its not an intrusion on your anonymity may I know whether you yourself are an Indian who lives in India or an NRI?
2. Were you relating incidents of Indians announcing they were leaving in India? If yes, was that at Dera or elsewhere in India?
3. approximately how many times have you heard satsangis announce they were leaving?
P.S. I can recall a case of a UK satsangi telling Charan at Pusa Rd he thought he’d made a mistake initiating him as he didn’t fit in, if you like.
BRIAN
We have someone on this ex-RSSB blog calling themselves “RS” and asking direct questions about the anonymous person’s identity, profiling them, asking them to identify themselves. This isn’t safe.
Dude the people at the top of the rssb pyramid are rabid computer hackers , they already know who it is. But F those punks.
Don’t be silly! I am not trying to doxx the person. I’m just trying to ascertain if their claims have any credibility,, as I am skeptical.
Suppose they truthfully answer and reveal they are an Indian satsangi living in India. If you really think that ANYONE can find out their name and address from that information, then you are a deeply paranoid dimwit.
AND… RS stands for “really skeptical”.
Ask Brian Hines if you doubt it.
P.S. I just read the info at the two links provided by the anonymous Indian(?) satsangi who is sending these critiques to Brian.
They wrote claiming that “RSSB own website examples say “we are not a cult”.
As evidence of that these two links were provided:
1. Cults, Gurus, Religions, and Misconceptions – RSSB Satsangs & Essays https://share.google/xSGQG4lqO5gOgGwlm
2. Frequently Asked Questions – RSSB https://share.google/97H6axakdJYdSVcEk
I couldn’t find any mention of “cult” in the second linked text.
And the essay at the first DEFINITELY does NOT say “we are not a cult”.
(I advise everyone to check for themselves).
Instead it describes what a ‘cult’ is and also what is regarded as ‘cultish’ behaviour.
Consequently, I suggest this further undermines the credibility of this person and the accuracy of their ‘revelations’ to Brian.
RS, as I noted in this post, the mention of “we are not a cult” in the second link is in the RSSB Organization section of the FAQs. RSSB says:
“The religious philosophy promoted by RSSB is called Sant Mat. Sant Mat is based on the teachings of spiritual masters from past centuries and from present times, as explained by the Gurus of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. It is not a sect or a cult.”
Ah. Ok. Thanks. I missed that.
That is disappointing as RS Sant Mat both at Beas and Agra rather obviously DOES fit the definition of ‘cult’ on quite a few particulars, as the essay that was also linked more honestly conceded.
You are all most welcome with open arms to the new and improved Western version of SatMat that I will be heading after Gurinderji’s overrated , much overdue death. If this is my karma then nothing he says or does is going to change that and nothing I say or do is going to change that.. He’s the one that told me. I waited 20 years then I told Brian. Bless his heart. He might be a little choked up that Charan Singh won’t be coming for anyone either.
I agree with all of Brian’s anonymous correspondent says here, as well as his last message that Brian shared with us prior. (Read both just now.) And I support fully his exit from his RSSB cult.
However, at this point, I’d like to introduce a nuance, if I may. What religion isn’t a cult? I put it to you, Sir, that every one of them is, to some degree, a cult. Take Theravada: its core principles are just as sane and just as reasonable as anything you could ask for: and yet, in practice, there’s lots of woo thrown in in how even something like Theravada is oftentimes practiced de facto; and there’s familial and societal pressure and stigma and all of the rest when someone leaves the flock.
Cults effectively tend to be defined basis their size. No one can reasonably deny that Christianity was, in the first few decades and centuries of its existence, “just a cult”; and yet, its sheer size means that it is no longer a cult. And I put it to you that we should ignore the size factor, given the nature of your objections. With the size consideration gone, then all religions are cults. Christianity no less than your RSSB.
Then it’s just a question of which cult is the more rabid. And again, I put it to you that some cults are way more rabid, way more violent, way more controlling, way more dangerous, than are others. And that your RSSB is probably among the lesser, in terms of sheer malignancy, of all religions/cults. (When compared to mainstream Islam, for instance, where blasphemers and apostates are liable actually to be killed; and to Scientology, which oftentimes goes to great lengths to vilify apostates and critics; and to LDS/Mormon; and indeed to some specific denominations of Christianity.)
———-
Not suggesting for a moment that you rethink your decision to exit RSSB! Support you 100% in that!
Just, let your exit from RSSB be accompanied with an open-ended sincere search — leading, at your own pace, to the understanding that all kinds of religion are false, and that all theistic belief is fallacious.
If you exit RSSB only in order to turn to Christianity, or to Sikhism, or to some other sects within Hinduism: then, while certainly you can do that if you like, but then this whole exercise is kind of silly. You might then just as well stick with your RSSB nonsense: that is at least not half as overtly malignant as some other brands of theism.
———-
In any case, and to emphasize again: As far as your exiting your RSSB nonsense, as far as just that much: I support your decision 100%, for what that is worth.
And agreed, Brian’s writings must be really inspirational to RSSB types that are of a skeptical bent.
For me, this place is essentially a place to explore spirituality from an essentially rationalistic grounding: and thereby to separate the wheat, if any, from the chaff. And I’ve learned a lot, and gained a lot, from this place.
But I can see how to someone that is mired specifically within the RSSB rigmarole, Brian’s writings, as well as this platform he provides, can prove to be uniquely helpful in breaking free. His authoritative standing as both official writer and official speaker, means that no one can credibly dismiss his knowledge of the RSSB path and practice. And his detailed and outspoken critique of the myriad gaping holes within RSSB theology and observance and organization, means that these carry a certain weight and gravitas for those that take RSSB seriously. Which might, strictly speaking, amount to a fallacious appeal to authority: but nevertheless, in practice it sometimes takes one authority figure to cut to size another authority figure, if someone happens to be in thrall to the latter authority figure.
Kudos to Brian and his selfless life-work, that is this here Churchless, on that count as well! 👍
Gurinder’s reactions to the people leaving ( but their initiation into themselves and surat shabd yoga never leaves) , leaving the physical form of the guru is specific to him. Gurinder’s reactions are textbook narcissism. The bullying by others is textbook cult activity. I promise you if I’m elected guru this will not happen. I don’t really even want you to come, much less leave. But I really need this job.
We seem to be susceptible to joining cults of any kind. Historically (and more recently), the cult of personality has become rife in many areas – especially politics – with present-day examples of such cult figures wreaking havoc around the world.
A political cult is a group centred on a specific political ideology, often advocating far-left or far-right agendas. Political cults are closely associated with personality cults, defined as a cult “in which a public figure (such as a political leader) is deliberately presented to the people of a country as a great person who should be admired and loved. Fear and in security often create fertile ground for the rise of personality cult leaders. Such leaders are presented and perceived as viable solutions to any perceived crisis, be it the economy, inequality, unfair distribution of wealth and resources etc.
Through the use of carefully orchestrated propaganda, are able to shape their public image as a saviour brought to redeem their countries. Their messages can be simple but powerful, persuading people to fight for them by appealing to their emotions. The high numbers of followers recruited by personality cult leaders can result in devastating consequences.
Like “fascist.” the term “cult” has no agreed-upon meaning. Therefore, it means nothing and says nothing as a standalone term of criticism. Therefore it’s not valid criticism.
I say again, this person you keep quoting is obviously not afraid of RSSB; he’s afraid of his family. Rather than make RSSB his problem, he needs to face his fear of his family’s opinion of him. He needs to tell his family he’s not a believer anymore, and if they don’t like it, they can pound chapatis. Otherwise he’s playing the old victim game.
It sounds like a woman not a man. What makes you think it’s a he?
Westerners who join RSSB or similar fringe religions tend to think their attraction was a matter of karma. Or if dissaffected, they tend to believe the group was a “cult” that tricked them with mind control.
They never consider the most likely reason they joined the fringe religion: Because they resented one or both of their parents and/or their religion.
Every single person I know who joined a Sant Mat group had a bad relationship with their parents—usually, the father. Yet they never make the connection that they joined the cult because they sought a new and perfect dad.
The same family dynamic plays out in people who become disaffected with the fringe religious group. The perfect dad guru is given the same place of resentment they held for their actual fathers. Or, if their guru is succeeded by a new guru, their original guru keeps the place of love they held for him, while they hate the new guru and find fault with everything he says and does.
You see this kind of thing so often with Westerners who joined Eastern religions. Good dad, bad dad. Love one authority figure, despise his successor. Revere the guru that initiated you, and excuse every weird thing he did as wonderfully wise or divine, but refer to his carbon copy successor as a disgusting faker and con artist of grave evil intent.
Either way, the whole guru trip is about the seeker’s desire for a relationship with Dad. In the adolescent minds that we think we’ve long outgrown (but haven’t), our spiritual search has been an effort to refigure our family issues. We dearly love one particular ersatz charismatic father figure, or we hate his doppelganger with an equally inordinate passion.
All while being quite detached from our delusion.
Gurinder Singh Dhillon is now going to live off the sangats seva money for the rest of his life in retirement as a old baba pensioner.
He hasn’t worked a day in his life anyway but lived off the Sangats Seva millions as we know, stole millions of his nephews, land grabbing and even tax fraud, so now he will happily live of sangats seva money.
This is what the New con artist Baba Jassdeep will do now too, as he takes the role of the devious Baba of beas now.
He will be lying to the sangat so he can initiate them into a satanic cult Radha Soami which makes you repeat the Evil 5 names of Kaal( Devil) in meditation (naam daan)
And lead the individual down Satan’s path
So the Z security makes some sense as these lying Baba like Gurinder Singh Dhilion and Jassdeep now don’t want to be given a good hiding for the Evil they are doing to people, if they ever realised it.
Jassdeep now runs this Cult an evil worse than Gurinder himself
The clues are there, these baba do black magic becareful
These baba hide like a new bride at a Indian wedding feeling embarrassed as to what they are really up to and what if they were found out. Run around egotisticaly with z security as if they were so important and some ones hurt they’re evil assess, it’s them who are hurting everyone and are scared if someone found out
They preach to everyone that they should give up they’re Mothers, Father’s, Brothers and Sisters too and all theyre relatives and hand yourself to the Sick Soami so he can do sick things with you here, and there in Sachkand.
He robs everything of you and still none have had anything in return ever.
These numbsculls are to be avoided, like the plague they spread lies on stages and the stench they spread across the world for they’re Evil master kaal who runs this dump
Gurinder Singh Dhillon is Exposed. He’s now on holiday in retirement and even seen at an personal attendance with his oldest son and new Blah blah Jassdeep at a personal seating with the Pope.
What is Gurinder up to? he never said a good thing about him and bad mouthed religious leaders all his life and now all of a sudden? He said many a time even styled it thst he was the only one.
This is the lying Hypocritical two faced Gurinder is today, he finally came out.
FINISHED and BRUTTALLY EXPOSED he now lives in retirement. Pratt
Rssb is only a religion when it suits gurinder singh dhillon and his immediate family otherwise it’s a cult. Remember, GSD make it up as you go along, copying other religious texts into his organisation which has no ideals. I seem to remember gurinder put RSSB as a religion in its application when he was interested in purchasing property in Australia and fraudulently getting planning and government funds there. This guy is a crook and rotten to the core. And Brian and many others have now successfully left the shit whole rssb cult and are now examples for others to follow. Rssb use fear tactics to keep you locked in, this is nothing but a trap. You do not need the survive – this is a lie, a virus program. My life is now my own, I answer to no one but the one true god, who needs nothing. He only judges people with evil intentions. Gurinder your time has come to face your karma. Game over.