Singh brothers get into fight over loans to RSSB guru and his family

Shivinder Singh has been mentioned as a possible successor to Gurinder Singh Dhillon, a guru who is considered to be God in Human Form by his devotees.

I think reports of his successor-hood may have been
greatly exaggerated. On the other hand, he;s shown
he could rule with a “firm hand”.

“”But not so spiritual as to avoid getting into a fight “”
Brian, I would read ” The 10 Sikh Gurus”. -forgot the author but. . . . . hahaha
They did so much fighting
And really if I could not communicate
with Gurinder in my inside
and if I wouldn’t have seen that “form” at the outside . . .
while my wife saw the same “form” 5 meter staying away from me . .
I would (in a way ) start doubting
I wish and sincerely hope some psychic for the suffering readers
777

777
There are two Gurindars.
The one within who helped raise my son, and has my heart and love. He is as real as your love, and worthy of it.
And then there is the businessman / guru in India who, together with RSSB board members he himself picked created a very detailed plan for fraud that could only be hidden by an unsustainable bull market. That individual, who remains silent and irresponsible, must be tried in a court of law, take responsibility for their actions and publicly ask for forgiveness from those he has harmed.
If he came with no karma, he has a bit of work to do to leave that way.

@Spence
It’s awesome but
my wife and I were 5, perhaps 10 meters
from each other
and then in clear daylight WE BOT saw this immense Light around Him ( in the car )
in the same way
as we had seen Charan in Delhi ( but that was late and dark )
between 8 thick raws of cars
and I said to our own taxi driver “Follow that Car”
and if not, . . . the guy had brought us to the wrong station ( he said)
Then the following :
Do you Spence, . . see Charan as That Immoral, . . that is
to refuse initiation to a guy or gurl asking for it but deny it,
if he couldn’t really “”see”” , know that
this would be 4 their best !
Can You ?
Can anybody here ?
(expert the full_grown haters )
Next al always ‘Physical Sinendipities’

°° except

@ Spencer and 777 – hello both.
I don’t want to upset Brian by discussing God on an athiest blog.
However this is disheartening to read – where is the real master then???? Who can help genuine people – a lot of thoughtful people reading this will be destroyed

Spence writes:

There are two Gurindars.
The one within who helped raise my son, and has my heart and love. He is as real as your love, and worthy of it.
And then there is the businessman / guru in India who, together with RSSB board members he himself picked created a very detailed plan for fraud that could only be hidden by an unsustainable bull market. That individual, who remains silent and irresponsible, must be tried in a court of law

This is delusional. You love and hate the same person. The inner one is a creation of your mind, just as all inner experiences are. It is also subjective and unreal because you can create whatever you want.
On the one hand you claim to love him, on the other hand you want him tried for fraud.
You have a very serious unresolved conflict. Even according to sant mat teachings, this is impossible.
Have you ever known a devotee who loves his master, yet hates his actions and wants him behind bars?

@Spence
Do you love Gurinder, the guru? Do you meditate and follow his path? Do you consider him the current GIHF and true successor at RSSB?
If you do, you can’t hate his actions. This is delusional.
Those who love him and follow his path, don’t care what the evidence points to, they will love him even if he was found guilty and in prison. You clearly don’t follow him and are just holding onto the “inner master”
If you hate the outer master, how can you possibly be having profound inner experiences, that only come from intense love?
If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?
There are no sant mat teachings that say there are two masters, as you have written. If there are, I invite you to post them here

Personal I do’nt think that Spence hate him..
He do’nt justify the behavier.
He has an other Guru inside him he calls him ”differently in his inside.
We all have thoughts feelings perceptions in ourselves..
He wants to keep the good..
So I see it.
I do the same..
The good beautiful things do’nt have to go away,because they are ”ours”
Sort of…

Hi Osho
You wrote
“If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?
There are no sant mat teachings that say there are two masters, as you have written. If there are, I invite you to post them here,”
Let me ask you what you believe in this matter.
How do you reconcile proven fraud on such a large scale?

@ Spencer – the Master cane to the NEC in Birmingham U.K. in 1991 – his first visit . He said words to the effect that if the wind blows something from the neighbours land and puts something (think a seed or fruit) in your land . You will have to pay for it.
That was the first doubts I had but my mind was young and body in severe training with adrenaline from running 25 kilometres with a Bergen sack with 30 pounds on my back. So I let it go.
My point is that this fraud business had nothing to do with wind….
So where do we stand . You say the master has done fraud ! If that is the case the master you are seeing within us not a master but a feigment of your mental projections. As the outside master would be just a man and not be able to put his form in your eye centre.
This is Kals or lucifers or whatever you want to call him ( bob the builder!) greatest day(s).
None of this makes sense

Hi 777
You asked
“Do you Spence, . . see Charan as That Immoral, . . that is
to refuse initiation to a guy or gurl asking for it but deny it,
if he couldn’t really “”see”” , know that
this would be 4 their best !”
Well we are in the realm of belief systems to answer that question, so please take my comments below as my personal subjective beliefs only.
When anyone asks God to be closer to God, they find it/him /her in the form best suited to them almost instantly, within. Once they calm down a bit then that truth is there. And that truth is generally their next step. Some aren’t ready for a teacher, some are ready for a flawed teacher, others are ready for a perfect teacher. But the perfect teacher is always the one within.
As we are refined by facing life’s difficulties with more honesty and strength, like gold refined in a fire, as we become a little cleaner, our environment changes accordingly, including the people around us. We can learn some great lessons from some very flawed people, if we are tuned to resonate to their teachings. Life does the tuning, it’s beyond our control. But we can keep our plates clean through focus on the Truth and living a clean, simple and honest life.
No human being, whether seeker or Master can alter what we must face. But each has a role to play. And we have many teachers. A small flame is easily extinguished by a little wind. But a great flame is enlarged by a howling storm.
So if we are encouraged by difficulty, including the Master’s rejection, to find that truth in ourselves, despite rejection, we are already quite advanced.
The Master also seeks his or her own level when picking disciples.
As for Shabd, it’s there for those who experience it and worship it. And if you hear that sound and see that light while you are looking at someone else, you worship the Shabd, that Logos, Word, Christ you see in them, and don’t even think about the human flaws of that same person. They are both there. The Shabd will show you all of it. You see God in them. The rest is like a flower unfolding.
Every human being carries flaws. But under those layers each of us is pure spirit.
Doesn’t matter if that is a criminal, a friend or the Master.
There is zero difference.
Shabd will show you this.
Then things become very clear.
A true Master lives a very simple life. They might be found in a church, a synogogue, a mosque, a library, a diner, or a free-thinkers discussion group. They are never the leader. They are never the organizer. They come here for the ones who want to fit in, but don’t fit in.
They are here for the ones who got rejected.
Those are the true Masters.
And you may find them here among us. How they live is their teaching.
They don’t actually take disciples at all. But they do have friends.
When asked they point to the truth as their personal philosophical belief, not as a teaching for anyone. They may share what they have found, as a peer only.
Part of keeping their life focused on truth requires they keep it simple.
They don’t have formal teachings. Just their own opinion about their own life, or life in general.
You must form your own philosophy from your own insight because they do not offer a system of any kind.
And then, when we think we need more, someone to lean on, there are the formal teachers. They give us wonderful lessons. They have systems and practices. The value of those is always what happens within us.
It is the art within yourself that is God, and your sincere practice that takes you to God within.
Anything that helps your personal meditation practice is good regardless of the source.
Anything that detracts or distracts from your practice is bad.
No true teacher touches anything corrupt. They live to the highest ethics, the highest moral standard. There is never anything to question. They just don’t go there. They really away from those situations.

Hi Osho
You wrote
“Those who love him and follow his path, don’t care what the evidence points to, they will love him even if he was found guilty and in prison.”
Yes, they are most open about acknowledging the facts. They know it is all part of the play.
It is the ones who make excuses who don’t really love the Master. They love themselves as members with status in the Sangat. All this threatens them. But they will also need to be comforted, Osho.
It is the ones who love Gurindar who will place him in jail, if it comes to that. And Gurindar will say, “That’s right. Good work.”

@Arjuna
I don’t want to upset Brian by discussing God on an athiest blog.
However this is disheartening to read – where is the real master then???? Who can help genuine people – a lot of thoughtful people reading this will be destroyed
My reply:
Arjuna – you have mis-understood Brian.
I can assure you that Brian is not upset by you posting a comment.
Unless I am mistaken, it will take a lot more than that o upset the guy.
He was just making a point and questioning the motives. You are welcome to continue to post – nobody is upset about it.
You yourself said you would not post anymore – but there is no need to say that or do it.
post to your heart’s content – nobody is upset.
Regarding the second point: believers will continue to believe. nothing to worry about.
or maybe that is the thing to worry about.
The path has never been about belief anyway.
and GSD has renamed it science of the soul

arjuna,
I was very upset and scared about that text from the neighbour also when young..
I believed things like that and I got a bit sick scared psychoses really..
Later on I did not believe things like that any longer.
So I got a bit upset and later more and more upset about all the angst/fear mongering.
I too dropped that.
And dropped more and more from the teachings..
Later nearly everything.
So what I kept was good for me.
That was Love..

@Spence
you:
It is the ones who love Gurindar who will place him in jail, if it comes to that. And Gurindar will say, “That’s right. Good work.”
me:
That doesn’t make any sense. First of all – it would have to be fraud case, and then it will have to be proven and he will have a defence lawyer. So there is no way he would every say “Good job” to anyone who puts him in jail.
This is just not how it works in real life.
If that was the case, he would do it himself.
It’s hardly a sign of love to put the person you love in jail!
What you are saying is, he deserves to go to jail, because he is guilty of fraud.
If you love him, you would not want to put him in jail.
In the story of jesus, Simon cut off the centurian’s ear, when they were taking him away.

Hi Osho
You wrote
“This is just not how it works in real life.”
Well, I’m glad someone knows this better than the rest of us.
So how does a perfect Master wind up as the mastermind of one of the largest fraud schemes anywhere in the world in modern times?
How does that work?

@ Osho – hello.
It’s all the more confusing now . The whole bundle

@ s.
Thank your comments / I guess love is all we need in the end and we must stop putting others including masters on pedestals.

Hi Arjuna
If an individual committs fraud who has otherwise led an exemplary life, is that possible?
Of course.
Can a perfect Master commit fraud?
Since I’m not perfect I can’t judge that.
But if I know someone who did some beautiful things, and then they did some dishonest things, I would accept that this is how the world works, though I may not understand why.
So many great works by a leader were also attended with criminal activity by that same leader.
So we honor the good they did but also hold them responsible for the bad.
Because one of the great things they did was encourage us to do better, to be honest and responsible, and forgiving. Those were great teachings.
So we should all live those.
Of course there is no anger at all. Only love.
But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.
No one should cover up the truth. We should handle the truth with complete compassion, forgiveness and honesty, but not lies or secrets, cover ups or pretense.
So I don’t know how to judge someone else’s character, especially someone living far away
But I do know what my personal duty is when someone I’m connected with is involved in crime. Once the crimes became proven fact by a wide range of sources, as they have, than my personal responsibility is clear. And that is to do absolutely nothing that would aid such crime. Including silent, passive support.

@ Spencer – it’s getting silly now – he is or he isn’t God! It’s that simple!
If not the search goes on

Hi Arjuna
You asked
”
he is or he isn’t God! It’s that simple!
If not the search goes on”
I tried to define above in detail what I believe are perfect Master’s whom you could claim are truly One with God.
They don’t have formal initiates or disciples. They don’t start or lead organizations.
They are actually watching Gurindar and the flock carefully, there for those who need them. Stuff had to happen, has to happen.
But there are also great Spiritual teachers. Sant Mat practice works perfectly. They are great older brothers. So we must accept since we are flawed we may have to learn truth from flawed teachers.
That’s fine too. That’s how we learn most things anyway.
Your search should continue and include reaching out to the guy next to you on the underground.

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
“I guess love is all we need in the end and we must stop putting others including masters on pedestals.”
So true. The real perfect Master never steps upon a pedestal.
They turn away from the dias. They never step upon the stage. You won’t find them there.
But take a careful look in the audience. To the one next to you.

@ Spencer – why would a perfect master be watching Gurinder ?

Dear Brian,
Reading after so long, only to find you put comments on moderation.
I wanted to ask you if you’d like a parliament without an opposition ?
But you’ve already answered that by removing the moderation. Thank You.
Dear Arjuna,
How long it has been that you’ve attended HIS Satsang ?
If not lately, please do yourself a favour and try to get under HIS aura asap
and as frequently as you can.
If a disciple does NOTHING and just starts sitting under the Master’s feet,
he will start getting oriented towards the Shabd in a beautiful way and automagically.
If you can attend to online charlatans,
you can surely attend to a live one (if you think of HIM to be that)
If you have some time, read the 10 pages of “Sar Bachan Sangrah” by Soami Ji.
The chapter “Bachan Ikkiswan (21)” – Hidayatnama – initial 10 pages. just that!
If you are into it, this reading alone will peel off several layers – equivalent to
months of meditation.
If you can see a huge light around the Master’s physical appearance as depicted by 777
that he and his wife both saw them around Babaji,
And Spence saying that it’s no difference you can see that around any disciple or friend
if you are seeing the One in that as every soul is actually (part of) the One.
However there is a slight misrepresentation in this expression,
you can see around anyone who is accomplished.
anyone and everyone can be accomplished, but not everyone right now is. HE is!
As Spence wrote:
“Master must be tried in a court of law”, disciples being the judge. That’s Impressive.
Dear Spence, that was above your payscale.
You are seeing HIM inside and insulting outside, in a manner which is mannerless.
You wrote:
“But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.”
I would call it your slight immaturity here, Spence.
You are not above the Master which you are mistakenly thinking of yourself to be.
Master doesn’t need your orders or suggestions.
As HE said in October satsang:
“Master will never take an action to please the disciples.”
In November Satsang, during a QnA:
“Master is not here to do what the disciple feels good, HE is here to do good for the disciple.
Whether the disciple likes it or not”
I congratulate to all those who were able to attend November’s Delhi Satsang.
By HIS grace, I did attend.
HE delivered outstanding discourses, full of spiritual vibrations in every sentence.
Every inch of the satsang hall was filled with HIS charismatic presence.
The inner feeling attending HIS discourse for 2 hours is same and even above
than the inner feeling inside as the outcome of great 2 months of meditation.

Hi Arjuna
There are all sorts of safety nets.
You can rest assured you are not alone. The face of God may change for you several times, but each is legitimate.
Jesus is God. So is Moses, Kabir, Mohammed, Nanak. If you connect with them, even their writings, and you see perfection and God there, then worship that within. Because this is God worshiping himself /herself/itself through you. This is love merging with itself and you are along for the ride.
Because you are just riding this train of life rest assured there is a train conductor moving things along. Your Master has always been within you. If you need him to have a human face, then he will give you that. Whatever will help you understand the reality of Truth and Love, living within you.
Your destination is only Alak, agam, anami.
Why stop short?
But if you need to take smaller steps, that’s all good, it coves from within. It’s your path, brother.

@ Spencer thank you but you never answered my question

Hi Arjuna
Let me be more succinct.
There is no place God isn’t.
He isn’t only in the master but no one else.
The Lord can move the entire Sangat to look at a baba Ji and say WTF?
And if the only realised soup is on stage it isn’t a real path.
But it is a real path and many realised souls are off stage also.
How to explain.
The line worker assigned to a job is supervised.
The supervisors have a manager.
The manager has a director.
All you are looking at is the line worker, the classroom teacher, who is truly great, just like Woody Allen. A perfect master of his work.
But always a human being with some human flaws.
His supervisors have a larger view and don’t need to get involved. But they are there.
The moment they see you start to worry out comes the hand on your shoulder not to worry.
But not to worry really means trust your gut and stay or go as your gut tells you.
Make a decision, and follow that steadfastly. Everyone is supporting you. You won’t be wrong.

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
“@ Spencer thank you but you never answered my question”
I think the question was
“@ Spencer – why would a perfect master be watching Gurinder ?”
Because he got involved with Fraud.

@ Spencer – on that basis I am Initiated by Gurinder but it means nothing as I have yet to come across one of the masters who no one knows about? Is that right?
So there is no inner master – no power no guide – do you see where I am getting at?

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
“So there is no inner master – no power no guide – do you see where I am getting at?”
Maybe. I think I may understand your question now. Thank you for restating it for me.
I think the argument, if I understand correctly is something like this… that
‘if a guru is found to be a thief and has been found to be the mastermind of a multi-billion dollar fraud scheme, then they can’t be a true guru representing God with any power to connect someone to God.’
‘And therefore all claims of inner connection to this Guru, by others, must be pure imagination.’
Is that the gist of your thinking?

@ Spencer – spot on. You write better than I can but hell yes.
In a nutshell- the initiation I have is fake based on that premise and I have no inner master

Hi Arjuna
Hm. Well. You see when I came to the path the Satsangi who brought me was personal friends with the Master, Maharaji. Tommy and I were classmates in Southern California, though he was much older than I.
Tommy passed away four years ago and his beautiful wife sent me his correspondence with Master. They had written to each other over 150 letters, many hand written and signed by Maharaji himself.
So much personal attention and encouragement.
Yet when Tommy was teaching me about the path he said not to put anyone upon a pedestal, that we all have feet of clay.
So how can a flawed teacher instruct in something pure?
Happens all the time. Mathematics is instruction, science is Instruction in principles that are pure. Understanding those principles we can apply them and have greater power over our lives.
Even if the professor is flawed.
Tommy had also brought David Lane to the path and had actually been encouraging David to look at the teachings of Ekankar, and also encouraged him look at the lineages of the Masters, to explore the different branches, including Kirpal’s teachings. This was all over forty years ago.
And he walked me through the paragraphs that were pure plagerism. Clearly this Paul Twitchell was a fraud, I thought.
But when Tommy wrote to Master about it, Master replied, and I’m paraphrasing, ‘the seeker must make a decision for themselves. However, at least the reader is getting the right principles when they read these writings. ‘
So now I’m telling you the same thing. The principles are right. But you must find a teacher who, in your eyes, while not perfect, reflects the integrity of the teachings. Because the practice of Shabd is right, and the focus on Master is an incredible tool to enter that sea of love and higher understanding.
But only if the Master reflects those teachings in a way that you believe to be flawless, so that your own concentration can become singular and pure, without any doubt.
So you see, the point is your own development of perfect concentration upon the Spirit. That opens the door to Spirit. And focus /contemplation /worship of the spirit pulls you up.
Then you can see what is really going on.
If you pray to find such a one, you will. The power of nature is stronger than any of us. We are all children of nature. What you prau for sincerely, if it is right, will naturally flow to you. Prayer just eliminates all your other distractions and worries.
But I cannot fault your basic reasoning. It is correct insofar as it refers to the individual whom you know is concerned.
It is not correct in so far as the path is concerned. Or those souls that quietly go in and out several times a day.

@ Spencer thank you – however it’s late here and I need sleep. I will ponder what you have said and get back to you.

Dear Spencer,
I think you have been given some false and misleading information from the late Tom Curtis concerning me.
First, Tom Curtis did not bring me to the path. Rather, I found out about it at the age of 17 from two sources: Johnny Haddad and James Lee Krohn, both who worked at two different restaurants. Anyone who knows me well knows that story. I only met Tom and his wife much later and he had absolutely nothing to do with me getting initiated or coming to the path. I wonder why he would tell you such a tall tale.
Second, Tom Curtis never encouraged me to look into the teachings of Eckankar. Rather, it was part and parcel of my research work for a class by Professor Happ at CSUN. I was the one who told Tom about the plagiarism and what I had uncovered. Simply put, he had absolutely nothing to do with my research. Rather, he took an interest in what I and others had uncovered. Tom got excited by what was discovered and tried to get the Dera to publish my paper, which I thought at the time was ill-conceived on his part.
Third, Tom never encouraged me to look into other branches of the tradition. That started because of a book I read at the age of 17 by Marvin Henry Harper entitled Gurus, Swamis, and Avatars, which talks about the differing branches.
I am bit surprised that Tom would provide you with such an inaccurate history concerning me, how I came to the path, my research on Eckankar, and the genealogical study of other branches.
I knew Tom and he would and I would have our differences, but I did indeed enjoy his early stories about the Dera, etc.
I am sorry that you have been given such faulty information.
If you wish to reach me directly, feel most free to write anytime at my email address.
Thank you

Hi David!
I apologize for the misunderstanding and very much appreciate the corrections.
You know best your own history.
I do recall Tom’s great interest and support in what you were doing, both with the lineages, and his review with me. He showed me the taped together large sheets with lineage trees all mapped out from the different branches of Sant Mat, and also the paragraphs from Twitchell’s books, and those from the older books of Sawan Singh’s that were, with the exception of some creative names for Perfect Masters, identical.
He spoke glowingly of your work. But he very clearly established that the teachings and our personal experience with them were all that mattered.
And we discussed the various branches, though I hardly remember them now, except the review of Kirpal’s work and the issue of the will, etc.
I found them personally uninteresting. If I needed a certified lineage to believe my Master that would be proof enough this wasn’t for me.
The teachings had to stand on their own. And they have.
I don’t know if that was Tommy’s influence or my own proclivity at the time. Or remains so because of his encouragement.
I would prefer that you attribute these misunderstandings to my own poor memory.
I have no reputation to uphold in this matter.
You and I did meet at one point, though I’m not sure you recall that. It was at a Satsang in Ventura. I met both you and your wife. You gave Tommy a huge hug at the time.
It is a small world, but one easy to mis-remember.
It was Tom who encouraged me to get involved with Meditation research on physiological measures, which became my thesis.
And my lifelong interest, that developed into work with hospitals, and in particular Emergency medicine.
It’s interesting how certain people have such a great influence upon us, or we upon them.
For me it has been mostly the former.
There probably have been so many influences that were important but which I do not recall.
Yours
Spence

Hi David
I just remembered a couple more details. I’m not sure they mean anything.
The lineage trees on taped together sheets were typed and hand drawn with parts in ink and others in pencil… And some white out. They were in process at the time.
Tommy proudly showed me a typed draft of your class paper comparing eckankar and Sawan Singhs works. I think you had asked Tommy to proof these. I don’t think you had submitted it yet.
He was so proud of you, David!
Unsure of the details.
When we all met at the Sunday Satsang… (might have been Van Nuys) you gave him a huge hug and with praying hands bowed lightly with a smile and called him Guru Ji and laughed. Tommy told me later that while he loved you, he didn’t like being called that.
“Some people just like to hug people.” He exclaimed. I remember asking “Tommy, why did he call you Guru Ji?”
And he replied, “I don’t know.”
But I think there was love there, David, though I had only tangential connection to all that.

@Spence

writing to Arjuna…..
‘if a guru is found to be a thief and has been found to be the mastermind of a multi-billion dollar fraud scheme, then they can’t be a true guru representing God with any power to connect someone to God.’
‘And therefore all claims of inner connection to this Guru, by others, must be pure imagination.’

The answer you have given Arjuna, although not very clear, basically seems to say that the path of shabd yoga is correct but you just need the correct master, which I surmise from your view of GSD would not be GSD.
That being the case, it still doesn’t answer the question. How can so many people be having an inner experience of GSD when you are stating he is not a master.
Are you saying ppl can have inner experiences even though the master is a fake?
Or does the master have to be a real master for people to have inner darshan of his radiant form.
You previously told me that a master puts his radiant form in the disciple at the time of initiation.
So presumably GSD has the power to do that.
But then he got involved in, let’s just say some shady business deal, so now what happens to all the radiant forms he placed with his disciples? Do they just suddenly disappear? What exactly are you saying? Does he, according to you, have the power to give inner darshan, or not?
Or is the shabd yoga path such that a master is not even needed?

@Spence

So how can a flawed teacher instruct in something pure?
Happens all the time. Mathematics is instruction, science is Instruction in principles that are pure. Understanding those principles we can apply them and have greater power over our lives.
Even if the professor is flawed.

This argument is seriously flawed.
A professor is simply a teacher of a class. His character is completely irrelevant. He can viably be a thief, a robber or whatever. He claims no divine powers.
A master on the other hand is supposed to be GIHF according to the teachings. Like I pointed out before, just read Johnson. He must be a perfect man. The is a prerequisite for a master, but irrelevant for a professor.
According to Johnson, a flawed master is not a master. So then how can you be having inner experiences?
That is Arjuna’s question, which you have not answered.
By the way, was GSD a perfect master before the financial fiasco?
Did he fall from grace at a certain point? or are you saying he was never perfect?
in which case why did charan appoint him?

Hi Osho!
You asked
“How can so many people be having an inner experience of GSD when you are stating he is not a master.
” Are you saying ppl can have inner experiences even though the master is a fake?”
Where did I say he isn’t a Master?
That is Arjuna conclusion. It’s a very reasonable one.
I try to avoid those judgments.
As I wrote earlier, two Gurindars.
That’s as far as I can say about it.
You said earlier you don’t agree, so where is the issue? We have different views.

@Spence
This was my argument:

you:
It is the ones who love Gurindar who will place him in jail, if it comes to that. And Gurindar will say, “That’s right. Good work.”
me:
That doesn’t make any sense. First of all – it would have to be fraud case, and then it will have to be proven and he will have a defence lawyer. So there is no way he would every say “Good job” to anyone who puts him in jail.
This is just not how it works in real life.
If that was the case, he would do it himself.
It’s hardly a sign of love to put the person you love in jail!
What you are saying is, he deserves to go to jail, because he is guilty of fraud.
If you love him, you would not want to put him in jail.
In the story of jesus, Simon cut off the centurian’s ear, when they were taking him away.

You came back with
Hi Osho
You wrote
“This is just not how it works in real life.”
Well, I’m glad someone knows this better than the rest of us.
So how does a perfect Master wind up as the mastermind of one of the largest fraud schemes anywhere in the world in modern times?
Firstly
You took one sentence out of context. That sentence was referring one specific thing:
That according to you, he would say “Good Job” to the people who put him in jail.
I was saying “that is not how it works in real life”
Unless a person wants to go to jail. I am sure GSD does not want to go to jail; as clearly if he did – that would be easy for him to arrange, without the help of others.
That is what I was referring to when I said “that’s not how it works in real life”
Anyway – put that aside for now.
You was initiated by Charan Singh, I presume?
So you follow the RSSB path, if that is the case.
He appointed GSD as the successor. You now consider GSD to be a fraud.
Well – let me ask you this:
Why did Charan appoint GSD as the successor then?
Obviously it questions Charan’s ability to appoint the correct person.
So are you saying Charan is not all knowing? As clearly he cannot be?
But according to RSSB teachings, the master is all knowing.
How do you personally reconcile all this?
Arjuna is clearly frustrated because you claim to know, but you beat about the bush when he asks you clear questions.
A few examples of the beating about the bush

Hi Arjuna
If an individual committs fraud who has otherwise led an exemplary life, is that possible?
Of course.
Can a perfect Master commit fraud?
Since I’m not perfect I can’t judge that.

If a person lives an “exemplary life” – the very idea of fraud is not even going to enter his mind. So the correct answer would be “NO”, not “of course”
What does “exemplary life” mean to you? It means he thinks in a certain way – his thinking is pure and his life is a reflection of his thinking. So he would not suddenly commit fraud out of nowhere.
So the two don’t fit together. He can’t live an “exemplary life” and suddenly commit fraud.
And the answer to “Can a perfect master commit fraud is clearly NO, not “I can’t judge that!”
Can a perfect master commit murder? Rob people at gunpoint? Become a suicide bomber?
I am sure you would answer NO to those, even though you are not a perfect master!

Of course there is no anger at all. Only love.
But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.

What are you talking about? You feel GSD has commited fraud and that means he has let a lot of people down, and you say he is a criminal and deserves to go to jail, but
“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”
Spence, What drugs are you on?
No wonder Arjuna is confused!
Anyone reading this would be confused.

Why do you think he should go to jail, if you love him, especially if you consider him to be the successor of your master?
And one last question to top them all:
If you claim to have inner darshan, then why don’t you get the answers from the inner master, instead of all this confusion?

@Spence
This was my argument:

you:
It is the ones who love Gurindar who will place him in jail, if it comes to that. And Gurindar will say, “That’s right. Good work.”
me:
That doesn’t make any sense. First of all – it would have to be fraud case, and then it will have to be proven and he will have a defence lawyer. So there is no way he would every say “Good job” to anyone who puts him in jail.
This is just not how it works in real life.
If that was the case, he would do it himself.
It’s hardly a sign of love to put the person you love in jail!
What you are saying is, he deserves to go to jail, because he is guilty of fraud.
If you love him, you would not want to put him in jail.
In the story of jesus, Simon cut off the centurian’s ear, when they were taking him away.

You came back with
Hi Osho
You wrote
“This is just not how it works in real life.”
Well, I’m glad someone knows this better than the rest of us.
So how does a perfect Master wind up as the mastermind of one of the largest fraud schemes anywhere in the world in modern times?
Firstly
You took one sentence out of context. That sentence was referring one specific thing:
That according to you, he would say “Good Job” to the people who put him in jail.
I was saying “that is not how it works in real life”
Unless a person wants to go to jail. I am sure GSD does not want to go to jail; as clearly if he did – that would be easy for him to arrange, without the help of others.
That is what I was referring to when I said “that’s not how it works in real life”
Anyway – put that aside for now.
You was initiated by Charan Singh, I presume?
So you follow the RSSB path, if that is the case.
He appointed GSD as the successor. You now consider GSD to be a fraud.
Well – let me ask you this:
Why did Charan appoint GSD as the successor then?
Obviously it questions Charan’s ability to appoint the correct person.
So are you saying Charan is not all knowing? As clearly he cannot be?
But according to RSSB teachings, the master is all knowing.
How do you personally reconcile all this?
Arjuna is clearly frustrated because you claim to know, but you beat about the bush when he asks you clear questions.
A few examples of the beating about the bush

Hi Arjuna
If an individual committs fraud who has otherwise led an exemplary life, is that possible?
Of course.
Can a perfect Master commit fraud?
Since I’m not perfect I can’t judge that.

If a person lives an “exemplary life” – the very idea of fraud is not even going to enter his mind. So the correct answer would be “NO”, not “of course”
What does “exemplary life” mean to you? It means he thinks in a certain way – his thinking is pure and his life is a reflection of his thinking. So he would not suddenly commit fraud out of nowhere.
So the two don’t fit together. He can’t live an “exemplary life” and suddenly commit fraud.
And the answer to “Can a perfect master commit fraud is clearly NO, not “I can’t judge that!”
Can a perfect master commit murder? Rob people at gunpoint? Become a suicide bomber?
I am sure you would answer NO to those, even though you are not a perfect master!

Of course there is no anger at all. Only love.
But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.

What are you talking about? You feel GSD has commited fraud and that means he has let a lot of people down, and you say he is a criminal and deserves to go to jail, but
“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”
Spence, What drugs are you on?
No wonder Arjuna is confused!
Anyone reading this would be confused.

Why do you think he should go to jail, if you love him, especially if you consider him to be the successor of your master?
And one last question to top them all:
If you claim to have inner darshan, then why don’t you get the answers from the inner master, instead of all this confusion?

Dear Spence,
That’s excess of rubbish and mind crafted stuff from you.
As I said earlier, you are seeing HIM inside and insulting outside.
You are declaring things as if you are above the Masters. And You are not!
Master doesn’t need your suggestions or orders.
All of the above is the outcome of your mind, so essentially these are your opinions and have nothing to do with the procedures how Masters work. You don’t know that. Because you are not a Master and don’t try to be unless appointed by a Master.

Sorry – not sure why it’s gone into all bold mode
I did but the closing bold code in – but not working
hopefully it will correct itself shortly

One initiated also points out that
it is incongruent that on the one hand you claim to have inner darshan
and on the other hand you consider the outer guru is a fraud.
These are they key points from my earlier posting (which went all bold by mistake)
Charan appointed GSD as the successor. You now consider GSD to be a fraud.
Well – let me ask you this:
Why did Charan appoint GSD as the successor then?
Obviously it questions Charan’s ability to appoint the correct person.
So are you saying Charan is not all knowing? As clearly he cannot be?
But according to RSSB teachings, the master is all knowing.
How do you personally reconcile all this?
What does “exemplary life” mean to you? It means he thinks in a certain way – his thinking is pure and his life is a reflection of his thinking. So he would not suddenly commit fraud out of nowhere.
So the two don’t fit together. He can’t live an “exemplary life” and suddenly commit fraud.
And the answer to “Can a perfect master commit fraud is clearly NO, not “I can’t judge that!”

Of course there is no anger at all. Only love.
But sometimes a friend or a parent must set the limits when our great friend has crossed a line and committed crime.

What are you talking about? You feel GSD has commited fraud and that means he has let a lot of people down, and you say he is a criminal and deserves to go to jail, but
“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”
Spence, What drugs are you on?
No wonder Arjuna is confused!
Anyone reading this would be confused.

Why do you think he should go to jail, if you love him, especially if you consider him to be the successor of your master?
And one last question to top them all:
If you claim to have inner darshan, then why don’t you get the answers from the inner master, instead of all this confusion?

Hi Osho and One Initiated
Osho!
You asked
“How can so many people be having an inner experience of GSD when you are stating he is not a master.
” Are you saying ppl can have inner experiences even though the master is a fake?”
Where did I say he isn’t a Master?
That is Arjuna’s conclusion. It’s a very reasonable one.
I try to avoid those judgments.
As I wrote earlier, two Gurindars.
That’s as far as I can say about it.
And I shared a personal view also that I believe the highest Masters never take initiates or disciples. They don’t step on the stage in the role of teacher or head of any philosophical organization.
They are actually here for the ones who were rejected, who don’t fit in.
Those are the luckiest ones. They get the 1:1 attention.
You said earlier you don’t agree, so where is the issue? We have different views.
Ditto in that, One Initiated.
You are both welcome to offer your own rationales for how a perfect spiritual master, or even just a very accomplished spiritual teacher can also mastermind more than a dozen shell companies with his wife as principle siphoning dozens of loans from corporations where he placed their key executives, in one of the greatest corporate robberies of this century.

This is where we come to the point about delusion.
Spence, you say you have inner darshan.
However, if this was actually true, you could ask the inner master all the questions you had and he would give you the correct answer.
But you can’t.
So that points to the same thing I said earlier.
perhaps the “inner darshan” is self-created and delusion.
Because objectively, if it was true, the inner master would clear up all the confusion in a moment.
Why doesn’t the inner master communicate to you and give you tne correct answers?
As clearly Arjuna wants answers and you claim to be in touch with the inner master, who has all the answers, but for some reason is not telling you.
Now I am confused. Please ask your inner master to help

Hi Osho!
You wrote
“Now I am confused. Please ask your inner master to help”
LOL
My crystal ball is in the shop.
You will just have to come with an answer that suits you.
Let me repeat the problem, because it is a huge and absolutely real problem, much more important than mine or anyone else’s opinion :
How can a perfect spiritual master also mastermind more than a dozen shell companies with his wife as principle, (all with the same tiny storefront address) siphoning dozens of loans from corporations where he placed their key executives in one of the greatest corporate robberies of this century?

Because you may not know the biggest apocalypse of the century awaiting to hit the planet,
and the corrupt govts. and the corrupt nations can never help the Masters in the righteous way.
These are fake govts of the fake nations. These govts. are the biggest criminals and are respected for whatever they are doing. This is a disastrous world we are living in and soon the balance would be demanded.
I personally know numerous accounts where the wealth was differently managed by the Masters, beyond the perception of disciples, which later found to be used in a way which helped millions of human beings. that’s not fraud.
Ideally none of these govts. deserves to receive such huge amount of taxes and then use it to create artilleries. There are numerous proven facts all over internet that many wars of this world were planned and crafted by some Super Power nations in order to sell their surplus artilleries and get cash rich and balance out their credits. I hope you understand where I am pointing to and which wars?
This ofcourse is not to motivate anything against the governments or tax authorities, one should abide by the law of the nation they are living in. Specially for the peace of mind of one own self than anything else – which would best help in the meditation.
However, think again, you still don’t know how the Masters work.
If you think the laws and orders setup by the nations and their govts. are ethical and moral, there wouldn’t be such disastrous gap between the rich and the poor.

Hi One Initiated
I understand your thinking. ‘It’s so bad everywhere else that these robberies are actually a good thing. ‘
‘master isnt just evading tax laws, he is keeping money from being used by the govt for weapons that kill peoole…’
Is that in the ball park of your thinking?

No Spence,
You don’t know what I am thinking.
I had posted a comment earlier subjecting to you and Arjuna, but I think that’s in spams as it contains some Hindi literals. Strange parsing by typepad, I can correct in minutes if they allow.
And what this physical form of Babaji that you are objecting, has given me and taken me to.
And that HE does it in every single discourse that I attend.
And happened with much more intensity this last month November’s Delhi’s Satsang.
So yeah, you don’t even know what a little and naive disciple like me thinking and going through, all your claims of being an all knowing not only about yourself but also about the Masters and their thinkings and their procedures, are false and mind crafted – basically just your own weird opinions… and has nothing to do with what the Master is doing and where and how HE is proceeding this further. You know nothing!
Just like you saw yourself, all you talked about David Lane – was pure simple fake stuff. You are embarrassed when David confronted you. You also tried hiding that embarrassment by labelling and welcoming the corrections.
You probably will be much more embarrassed and ashamed when Master will reveal more truths on you.

No Spence,
You don’t know a bit what I am thinking and what I am going through.
The same physical form of Babaji, that you are objecting, is doing things beyond the comprehension of words.
You know nothing!

How will Dera people see all this?
It must very confusing…

No Spence,
That’s not at all my thinking.
(my comments are not getting published)

@Spence
Let let me quote from above

Osho!
You asked
“How can so many people be having an inner experience of GSD when you are stating he is not a master.
” Are you saying ppl can have inner experiences even though the master is a fake?”
Where did I say he isn’t a Master?
That is Arjuna’s conclusion. It’s a very reasonable one.
I try to avoid those judgments.
As I wrote earlier, two Gurindars.
That’s as far as I can say about it.

So firstly you are hiding behind Arjuna
Because HE said that GSD wasn’t a master, not you,
However, you agree it’s a reasonable conclusion, but you don’t want to say it. Why?
The reason you won’t say it is because
“You try to avoid judgements”
So instead you prefer to say, “there are two Gurindars”
Well that’s strange, when he speaks about ONENESS and now you say there are even two of him!
So now let me point out the obvious.
When you have written above

And then there is the businessman / guru in India who, together with RSSB board members he himself picked created a very detailed plan for fraud that could only be hidden by an unsustainable bull market. That individual, who remains silent and irresponsible, must be tried in a court of law

That is being judgemental, in case you missed it. You have passed judgement on a man who might be innocent, because a person is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
But you try not to be judgemental so you won’t commit the cardinal sin of stating he is not a master, however, you have clearly stated he is a fraudster.
You don’t seem to be doing too well for someone who tries not to be judgemental.
Just be judgemental, it’s okay. That is why you have a mind – to discriminate. You are already judgemental the moment you think the thought – all the remains is to voice it.
So when you refuse to voice it – it’s worse – you are now a hypocrite because you think one thing and say another.
So just say it.
Why do you need yo invent TWO gurindars?
The good one (inside) and the bad one outside.
Is this documented in RSSB books anywhere? Or your own theory?

Osho,
that’s the absurdest theory by Mr. Hypo Spence.
Also please be noted that whatever he said about David lane was all fake stuff, and when confronted by David – to hide the embarrassment he is welcoming the corrections.
When Spence couldn’t even know the reality of David, what do you think all the claims about the Master be of any relevance ?

@Spence
You wrote above:

And I shared a personal view also that I believe the highest Masters never take initiates or disciples. They don’t step on the stage in the role of teacher or head of any philosophical organization.
They are actually here for the ones who were rejected, who don’t fit in.
Those are the luckiest ones. They get the 1:1 attention.
You said earlier you don’t agree, so where is the issue? We have different views.

When did I say I disagree?
The guru I went to doesn’t actually only works in small groups and doesn’t collect disciples. Everything he did was over a four day session and I never saw him again.
But he doesn’t have teachings – just his presence to shatter your concepts once and for all.
He is not a teacher.
But coming back to you:
Charan, then, according to you was also not the highest master because he did step on stage, albeit reluctantly at first.

You wrote
LOL
My crystal ball is in the shop.
You will just have to come with an answer that suits you.

Ah – taking a leaf from Gurinder’s book? He says that often – for a laugh.
But you are avoiding the question:

Spence, you say you have inner darshan.
However, if this was actually true, you could ask the inner master all the questions you had and he would give you the correct answer.
But you can’t.
So that points to the same thing I said earlier.
perhaps the “inner darshan” is self-created and delusion.
Because objectively, if it was true, the inner master would clear up all the confusion in a moment.
Why doesn’t the inner master communicate to you and give you tne correct answers?

You are the one claiming to have contact with the inner master (the good gurinder) – so why not ask him, why the outer gurinder is acting so badly?
Maybe he has an answer

@Spence
You feel GSD has committed fraud and that means he has let a lot of people down, and you say he is a criminal and deserves to go to jail, but
“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”
Spence, What drugs are you on?
Clearly you have passed judgement despite “trying not to be judgmental”
And most likely you are angry because you feel he deserves jail time.
but then you say
“Hey, of course there is no anger, only love”
now this is clearly delusional.
if you love someone, that’s not the way you think, unless its a strange sort of love.

spence
there are plenty of deluded people and those preachers who will encourage it and get rich
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

@ Osho – I did not say Master was not Master – I was asking in a nutshell that if he wasn’t – we are fatherless for want of a better word and mediation wouldn’t lead anywhere.
I still believe He is .
Sorry for the confusion I was merely asking Spencer his thoughts

It’s time to revisit the research of David C Lane and his Chandian Effect. One can eulogize anyone including a crook or a criminal and you can see his radiant form also but those forms are just the projection of fractal mind getting energy from atomic field to make those forms. Still, seeing those forms is better than doing violence and plunder in the name of religion. That exactly is Sant Mat version DCL[ David C Lane], channeling the energy of mind away from cunning world and its inhabitants

@Osho,……
The CIA should hire you to be an Interrogator in Gitmo in Cuba, as the indicted Traiters start being brought there for Trials by a Military Tribunal! ( Search “ Q drops by Qanon for latest developments)
But regarding Gurinder, it appears that David Lane was the real Prognosticator decades ago, when he wrote the Guru Has No Tuban.
But really, I doubt that VERY few Westeners, at least after Sawan Singh’s time, really believed that the Gurus were God Almighty. They, we, believed them to be more like a Medical Surgeon, or a Spiritual Surgeon, able to remove Spiritual Cancer or Terminal Maya Disease from those of us who were drawn to them for healing.
If a Medical Surgeon that has a Practice of surgically removing Tumors and Cancers, in India, for instance, got caught holding Billions of Dollars of “ Black Money” hid away that was intended to avoid paying Taxes on, lost most of it when PM Modi put the squeeze on Black Money, should he quit operating , or surgically removing tumors & Cancers from diseased dying patients?
Apply the same to Gurinder. No doubt, he is not God Almighty, but is God In Human Form,…..in the Capacity his Padt Karmas has allowed him to be. So, he has been caught up in negative dealings and the human conditions, so, now, should he quit practicing his Spiritual Role of removing Spiritual disease from Marked souls who have been drawn to him for Surgery?
I had my Appendix, Tonsels, and Gall Bladder surgically removed by gods in human form when they relieved me of what would have terminated me, had they refused to help me. No doubt, none of those Surgeons were perfect, as no Masters are perfect,
My take on Gurinder’s present “ situation” is, not a single Marked soul will be drawn to him that will ask him for Initiation. But those who ARE Marked fir him, Will go to him, get initiated, and if they practice the Meditation Technique Gurinder is still sharing, then they will be as successful of being connected to that ONE than you claim to be .
Do you think the thousands that are getting fed daily at the free Langar at the Dera care if Gurinder is God In Human Form or not? Do you think they will go to Burger King, McDonald’s or KFC, if they read the discussions here, and decide Gurinder is guilty of financial fraud ? I don’t believe they will quit eating at the Dera Langar as long as there are free meals given there, no matter if Kal manifests as Satan in Human Form and feeds the hungry and gives Darshan in the Pope Mobile ride by.
Jim

Dear Arjuna, some of my comments didnt get posted. I subjected that to you and Spence.
In a nutshell, HE is the Lord and HE has revealed that. the only thing required is to eat the nut and leave the shell. Listen to your inner conscience and please listen to the Shabd – daily.
Dear Vinny,
it’s time to spend dedicated 3 hours early in the morning to attend to our meditation daily without fail, the effects of that are marvellous and the side effect of that is the above non sense will not make a slightest impact.

“”””Why did Charan appoint GSD as the successor then?
Obviously it questions Charan’s ability to appoint the correct person.
So are you saying Charan is not all knowing? As clearly he cannot be?””””
HE DID NOT. !
Sawan Singh appointed Gurinder
777

“””. Why do you need yo invent TWO gurindars? “””
Or 3 David Lanes.
Spence , just stop
777

Hi Osho, 777 and One Initiated:
It’s just a matter of looking at the facts that have all ready come to light, and attempting to reconcile them.
You can’t actually look in someone else’s head to see their inner experience. That’s just conjecture.
But you can evaluate the hard evidence of fraud:
$400 M of loans were proven to have been siphoned from corporations by the Singh Brothers directly to shell companies owned by Gurindar’s wife. And Gurindar was involved in placing the singh brothers and the RSSB board head in key corporate positions that help responsibility for these loans.
There were additional monies lost also, but these were the loans made that were never repaid directly into the Dhillon family, and audited.
Some of these loans were created to cover the missing loan payments of earlier loans.
Several of the shell companies all gave the same small storefront address. All these companies had as their address a small store front and the principle or svp was listed as Gurindar’s wife. That requires her signature.
Two auditing firms confirmed the above information.
The articles attempting to find out what happened note the relationship of the Dhillon family, and in particular Gurindar’s own holding companies, to both Religare and Fortis in particular.
Brian can repost all the links to these articles.
And you are most welcome to review them.
Let me tell you what really weakens your attacks, and that is that you have no credible explanation to offer in substitution for the above information.
It is this information that has been most disturbing to me.
Yet none of you have anything else to offer. You are attacking me, but doing nothing to help round out the picture of proven and verified fraud painted in the press by multiple sources.
Whatever you think of Sant Mat 1, 2, 3, or 400, you have done nothing to help offer evidence/ explanation that would alter the hard facts of fraud.
And actually I wish you would work on that end, since that’s the issue here.
That’s why I stated earlier that we simply disagree on interpretation. But change the source factual evidence please. Find something that explains all this.
Then I can go back to my imaginary inner Master!! 😉

Hi David:
One more question. I’m curious to know when your initiation took place. What year? Was this while you were at CSUN? What was your age at the time?
Were you initiated by Dr. Roland DeVries, at his place in Pasadena?
Was Tommy there?
Tommy drove me there and back when I was initiated.
Thanks David. It helps me understand more, and more clearly, about my dear friend Tommy.
Yours
Spence

No one except yourself is attacking you Spence.
If you are thinking all these facts are pointing to something which is unethical and fraud,
you are doing so by keeping your trust more on the nations’ laws than the Master.
Are you getting this point ?
And even if you are doing so, you are not doing that properly, because you are not waiting for the procedures of court of law to be completed and passing your judgement prematurely.
You’ve already given the sentence for the jail term to the master – that was disgusting to say the least.
You are neither a Judge in the court nor a lawyer.
Would you explain some bits on who do you think has given you that right to go to that extent and mention things as ugly as that ?
Is it not your boosted ego and a false sense being an all knowing which is making you write things like that ?
Do you know when you or me are going to die ? I am sure you don’t !
You didn’t even know that what you were saying about David was false.
And you are writing any malign stuff and claiming to be in the correct stature passing absurd statements towards the Current Master. That’s truly all rubbish.

Osho Robbins, it seems to me Spence might have a point.
It is possible to (continue to) love someone, even while clearly recognizing their culpability.
If some close friend of mine, whom I love, were to commit some kind of crime, then I hope I’d have the integrity to clearly denounce their wrong-doing, while at the same time not losing my love for them.
No, I see no contradiction there.


Just wanted to make this small, limited point — without in any way weighing in on the rest of your discussion.

Hi David!
I think my addendum response may have gotten lost in cyber space. Or at least this one…
I did remember a couple more details as I was thinking back to those days when we, (you, Tommy, Maria and I) were attending CSUN at the same time, though in in different programs.
Maybe you can help me clarify a couple of observations.
Tommy and Maria lived on the edge of the campus in an apartment.
The taped together sheets of the lineages were incomplete, with typing, pen ink, pencil and white out in various places. They were still in process at the time, and I had no idea why they were at Tommy and Maria’s place.
Were you and he working on them? Why would he have drafts?
The draft of your paper was there with the source books from Twitchell and Sawan Singh. I’m not sure on this, but I think Tommy said you had asked him to proof it for you. Is there a reason he would have a draft?
Maybe to type it also? He had a very expensive IBM selectric with a type ball head.
The first time I saw you at the Satsang was actually in Van Nuys with your wife. You not only came up to Tommy and gave him a big bear hug, but you then put your hands together as if in reverence and bowed before Tommy. You called him Guru Ji and then laughed.
When Tommy, Maria and I drove back to the apartment building (I lived on the same floor) I mentioned that you really seemed to love him. He commented “Well some people like to hug.”
I asked him why you had called him Guru Ji and he said, “I don’t know.”
Do you recall using that, humorously? Does it reflect the quality of your relationship then with Tommy?
Just strolling down memory lane, David 😉

@ One Initiated – I am so sorry I may have started all this.
Just want to believe that’s all – but the mind is powerful.
Good to hear from you 😀

Hi Arjuna!
You started nothing. You just raised the question of how do we reconcile these things.
That is a solid question.
The evidence has already been verified.
And I don’t personally like the idea of saying I can’t decide right from wrong in the light of overwhelming evidence. That sounds like cowardice and irresponsibility. Religion shouldn’t do that to anyone. Victims shouldn’t be denied their recognition and some recompense because “the priest could never have done that” …etc…
Adults, given objective data, can make decisions for themselves.
That’s what Baba Ji wants..So the Inner Baba Ji is telling me.
Even if this is the terrible way it has to be done.
Call me delusional. But please let’s not ignore the facts. Let’s not put all our power as human beings to decide right from wrong on such a well documented issue into the hands of a court.
It just reminds me too much of Nazi Germany “Of course no one knew that was happening!” BS.
It was denial.

Dear Spencer,
I don’t know if Brian really wants his blog for discussions of this sort, so out of respect for him why not write me personally and I will be most happy to reply to any of your questions. My email is neuralsurfer@yahoo.com
Thanks,
Dave

@ all – I am sorry as I only want truth – I hope you forgive me if I have offended anyone on here and Spencer – I kinda get you and Osho and One intiated.
Just seeking the Lord that’s all folks

Sufi Poetry again for solace in troubled times, with grammatical inputs
Mahvey tasbeeh tou sab hein magar idraak kahan
Zindagi khud hi ibadat hai magar hosh nahin
Mahvey [ verb: means absorbed] in tasbeeh [rosary] tou sab [everyone] without idraak [comprehension]. Zindagi [life] khud hi [itself] is ibadat [prayer] magar [but] hosh nahin [ people don’t have awareness about depth of life]
Full translation: People are absorbed in devotion by rosaries but without comprehension about the depth of life itself. Life itself is prayer but they are doing prayers by empty rituals

Hi David and Spencer,
I do hope that Brian will allow for this discussion to continue. Hearing about the Dera and what it was like in the old days has been very interesting.
……
One Initiated, you say…
“Because you may not know the biggest apocalypse of the century awaiting to hit the planet”
Are these your thoughts or has Gurinder talked about this apocalypse scenario?
……
I watched and really enjoyed this youtube video yesterday:
Memorial for a remarkable Radha Soami Satsang Beas satsangi, Tom Curtis Published 10/5/16 (26:27)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1dtVyAmRis
Thanks guys,

@Spence

And I don’t personally like the idea of saying I can’t decide right from wrong in the light of overwhelming evidence. That sounds like cowardice and irresponsibility. Religion shouldn’t do that to anyone. Victims shouldn’t be denied their recognition and some recompense because “the priest could never have done that” …etc…

Just for clarity, which victims are we talking about in this case?

Adults, given objective data, can make decisions for themselves.
That’s what Baba Ji wants..So the Inner Baba Ji is telling me.
Even if this is the terrible way it has to be done.
Call me delusional. But please let’s not ignore the facts.

Yes, let’s not ignore the facts and the facts are that right now it’s trial by media
Nobody has been found guilty of anything so far – there has been no trial.
There may or may not be a trial, we don’t know anything yet – but some people seem to
have decided he is already guilty. He has’t had his say yet.
So it’s a bit early for the inner master to be making any decisions yet.
I am not calling you delusional for no reason.
Does the inner master (the good one) that is within you and the one inside Jim and the one inside One-Initiated and all others – does all the inner masters agree with each other.
If they do – that’s impressive – but I suspect they won’t agree.

“”$400 M of loans were proven to have been siphoned from corporations by the Singh “”
Our present SatGuru
did never higher financial studies ( and what happens even then > look around )
Sant Mat is famous for financial mis-adventures
Swami Ji to start bit Tulsi to make it clear and for What !
Yes I’m suggesting that BabaJi didn’t know
That the cornered were ashamed
and helt things hidden
until so much to late
and such a situ is karma
They might not even be on speaking terms
( compare Socrates >< Xantippe OMG ) Baba Ji is perfect for giving Darshan HE Himself doesn't understand how that works I hope and pray to all preceding Masters that they ordain God's Mauj as kind as possible which is a stupid prayer Que sera, sera At least everybody is vegetarian and that is perfect - Wow 777

@Spence
you wrote

Let me tell you what really weakens your attacks, and that is that you have no credible explanation to offer in substitution for the above information.
It is this information that has been most disturbing to me.
Yet none of you have anything else to offer. You are attacking me, but doing nothing to help round out the picture of proven and verified fraud painted in the press by multiple sources.

What you fail to understand is that the person who may offer an alternative explanation is not even on trial as yet. However you seem to have found him guilty and also given him a jail sentence.
Are you really that excited about seeing him go to jail? and and the same time to claim to love him?
Instead of him, imagine it was someone close to you – your wife, son, brother, best friend for instance, would you want them to go to jail? or would you do your best to help them not go to jail.
I personally would not allow someone I love to go to jail if I can help it in any way – I would prefer to go to jail myself instead and I don’t care what the law says.
As far as I am concerned. love is far greater than the law.
If I love someone – I would not wish any pain on them, even if they have done something wrong.
Isn’t that what love is? in Christianity jesus takes the sin on himself for others – that is love.
Simon cuts of the centurian’s ear.
If I was there I would have cut off far more than his ear.
if you claim to love Gurinder (the inner or outer) why would you want him to serve jail time?
Jesus said “Let he who has never sinned, cast the first stone”
I don’t get how someone who follows him can want him in prison, especially someone who sees his inner form (the good gurinder). Surely the good Gurinder doesn’t condemn the outer one? What happened to forgiveness?
Besides, at the moment, it’s all based on one side and the defence have not put their side over.

“””I don’t know if Brian really wants his blog for discussions of this sort, so out of respect for him why not write me personally “””
Now that you attacked Spence in public
you must end this in public David
but you will NOT
You did the same to me inviting that way
far away from the audience, you first seek
when I confronted you clearly about Faqir Chand
and you even
asked me ( paraphrasing) “What Guru booklet did I write”
(. all on this blog )
before you said that , I took you somewhat for a reasonable decent person
although destructive by His Mauj
777
Thank U Spence for that movie and sorry for my “stop”

@777
HE DID NOT. !
Sawan Singh appointed Gurinder
please explain.
And if he did (in the inner planes), then that questions his decision too.

#Osho
If you are not knowing Charan’s hand written testament
What are you discussing here ?
He mentioned that written THREE times
Sawan gave HIM the ORDER to appoint Gurinder
I’m sure HE did Simran while HE was communicated this ORDER
and we all benefit from that
777
So, don’t beat a Holy Man Spance

Hi Jen
Thanks for the link to the Youtube clip. Thanks to the makers of it. Cool tribute.
Great pics of Charan Singh with Tom Curtis – lovely stuff – brings memories and a few tears.
Best wishes

Dear 777:
I didn’t attack Spence. Rather, clearly pointed out that the information concerning me and my relationship with Tom Curtis was inaccurate.
You too are most free to write me, since I am not at all sure what you are referring to about Faqir Chand.
I apologize for not recognizing the context to which you refer.
Thanks

Hi 777
You wrote
“Now that you attacked Spence in public
you must end this in public David
but you will Not”
Woaw.
First, I made statements about David that were mistaken. They were wrong about key events in David’s life surrounding my friend Tom Curtis and my memory. Tommy and David did know each other early in David and my college days at CSUN, and at the same time Tommy and I were friends. And Tommy encouraged everyone to get initiated and to do whatever study they could make around the path. That’s how I started in Meditation research.
But as David pointed out he was already involved in his own research and knew about the path.
Because Tommy was always making friends with young men at CSUN and discussing the path, I presumed this was just another example of that, just as I was. And when Tommy lovingly showed me David’s drafts of the lineages and the plagiarism in Ekankar, and the will and Kirpal, and a draft of David’s paper, I just thought they were working together on this, just as we were working together on meditation research.
I had no intention to say anything sensitive or to invade David’s privacy, and I’m ashamed to have inadvertently done so.
Tommy was very supportive of me, answering all questions, having me over for lunches and dinners, where his wife, Maria, made the most amazing raw food meals. We read the books together, we read the Bible out loud, we read Rumi, and Tennyson. We reviewed. quantum physics (I was a physics major with focus on subatomic surface physics at the time, but switched to experimental psychology…. Tommy had a huge role in that) and we reviewed current meditation research as well as the history of it. Tommy knew all about the Lenovla research center in India, current work with bio Feedback.. And CSUN had become a center for hard sciences research including physiological psychology.
Tommy helped me every step of the way with my thesis, which included three separate controlled bexperiments on different college campuses. And it was heaven on earth. I met him in my Russian class. He spoke fluent Russian. I saw him again in my swimming class. He was the fastest swimmer in the class (in his late fourties). He was in my Tennis class. One of the top players. Who was this guy? And yes I have miracle stories about Tommy.
Tommy was a great friend. helping me apply for meditation, vouching for me with the local Sangat secretary, and even going with me to the initiation ceremony at Dr. DeVries’ beautiful zen temple like home in Pasadena. And he was there through my very spotty romantic life, always helping me put things into perspective.
But clearly I was mistaken about the actual events around that relationship between Tommy and David.
David also has a right to ask that his personal life remain so. And I honor that. So, please, that discussion is no longer public.
Let’s not try to make firewood for our own comfort out of someone else’s private life. That would be adding a more grievous mistake.
Golden rule. OK?

@Spence NO
Not at all
As David is a giant Saint & Guru Basher ,
: all bad about Gurus and soft compassionated men
perhaps women comes from him
Even brian’s
He has a chance to show some regret
or not . . . . about and what further happens in
the sphere of compared religions and false drafts
plus its long term consequences
Few profs on earth flee the discussion as he does AGAIN
777

” apologize for not recognizing the context to which you refer. ”
That must be age !
I will google in this blog our conversation
I don’t want to write you privately
As Engligs is only my 5th language
I don’t want to be covered under
a bunch of psycho- theological obscure expressions
but want
destroy your arguments in the open field
but you will not
777

Hi Spence,
Just a thought, maybe you might have met my brother, Errol Harding, who was initiated at the Dera by Charan. He was a tall skinny guy (seven years older than me) and his visit to India was in the mid 1960’s. He was a “beatnik” and hitchhiked around the world when he was young.
When he came back from the Dera and told Mum and I about his experiences we both fell in love with the Path and were initiated by Sam Busa in Durban, South Africa. I do have wonderful memories of those days. I suppose its a sense of belonging to something spiritual and special.

Hi Jen
Sorry I don’t recall Errol. He sounds like he was sharp and adventurous fellow.
Every age has its charm and wonder, and it’s fun to learn about it.
He must have been very charismatic to describe the path in such terms that you and your mum (the establishment!) were both convinced.
It seems people back then were more amenable and adventurous, to believe in wonder, possibility and to take risks to try something new.
The pessimism of this age, the Atheism which has devolved into anti – theism, wants to take away hope “for our own good”, does not want to allow for the larger mystery of life, and the magic of finding a path to a new place of wonder.
The wonderful science fiction and fantasy author Ursula LeGuin wrote in the early 1980’s a great novel called “The Lathe of Heaven”, about a future created by one young man’s wish, through a machine built just for this purpose. He wished for all people to be equal.
But this lead to a place where everyone was the same height; one middle sex, both their skin and clothes were forever a drab grey, in short a disaster.
And no one there had any hope for becoming better. That was against the law. There were cameras in every room to assure no one thought themselves any better than anyone else, and talk or dream for any personal achievement was outlawed.
Sound familiar?

@777, …..at least , we should give David Lane credit for not hiding from his Name, and he does invite any one to PM him,…unlike Trolls like AP does, and takes liberty to Troll Big Wheel personalities like David Lane, Osho, Brian Hines, Manjit, humping and peeing on their pant legs, looking for pats on the head, and petting , by asking silly questions that Puppie dog AP Troll imagines will impress readers , that he/she/it is a real High IQ Smarty Pants. Yet, hiding behind a false Mask, insulting me, and increasing the slander of accusing me of possibly calling my wife a Whore. Just to set THAT record straight, I have never, once, called my Wife a Whore, in the 57+ years we have been married. We, who are not ashamed to stand by what we write, as David Lane, I, and others who use our real Names do, also post our email Addresses inviting private communications or criticisms. You, 777, and Osho Robbins have linked your photos, so at least, I know you are Guys, and not Robot Trolls, as AP might be. Also, there have only been a few, very few, that have posted such Vitriol against me here, as AP has posted, in the 25 years or so years I have posted on David Lane’s site and here. One was Davd Lane’s Gate Keeper friend, Jules Alexander, and the other was David Lane’s Female Phycho “Lady”, Gloria Farman. But even they, had email addresses and Names, …….On David Lane’s RSS forum, I took a lot of heat because I supported the late Michael Martin , not as his follower, but as his Brother Charan Initiate. I took the heat, and suspect, AP might still be carrying over old rivalries from past encounters, but I really think AP has much more wrinkling his panties against me, than my bad spelling, typos, and the way I write. So, come out of hiding AP, and either contact me privately, or quit stalking me.
Jim Sutherland

@Jen,…thanks got that Tom Curtis Video, i never knew him, as Spence and David Lane did, so can’t comment. The Video saddened me to see how youth turns in to old age, making us all look the same , once we turn 70. Not much difference . How can ONENESS Devotees worship the impermance of youth, when Life’s a Bitch, then we all die?
Tom Curtis seemed to be one of Charan’s Core Desciples. Lucky he was.
Cheers,
Jim

@Jen,……you mentioned Sam Busa. Tom Curtis reminded me of Sam. Do you know, or did you know, Stephen Fine, back in the New Zealand Sanghat?
Jim

@Jim
That was a lot of information
and names
héé. serious
someone (you) could make a spreadsheet
draft like a who=who satsangis early days
BTW
I’ m still looking for the US Newsletter
July around 1976
I can precise later
where a lady tells about her inner adventures
meets Kal – sees MaharaJI on a throne
holding satsangis, each one at a kind of ray/ or rope
but also their non initiated family friends, . . .
Charan gave permission to write an account of it in the US Newsletter
perhaps you have them all
It’s very touching
I hv the text in dutch
@Jen I missed yr brother, Errol , maybe not
but be were so fixed on MaharaJI
I think from 4 visits 2 were before Errol and 2 later
Very impressive at that time were
pakistani Jets , coming each night
to destruct the bridge
and they always missed
That went on weeks and weeks
and MaharaJI said not to worry and we didn’t
Happy that the big tension is over
777

@777, ….1976 was way before my time. I never came to the Spiritual Path until April, 1977 at age 35, and never was initiated in to Sant Mat until 1988, and By Charan, 6 years after completing my Semanary Th.D in 1984. So, I was accepted by Charan as Dr. James. R. Sutherland, B.Min., M.Min., Th.D.Its all on my Application and acceptance Documentation. Perhaps RSSB might have expected that I , as an American X Preacher Th.D, might recruit many Seekers to RSSB, as David Lane and Brian Hines were doing, at the time. And I DID, i.e., recruit many to RSSB! RSSB Literature always stated that no Advertising or Proselytizing was to be practiced, but we all did it. Once a Preacher, always a Preacher. Look at that Tom Curtis Video, Spencer Tepper admitting he was recruited, along with others, by Tommy Curtis, as others were also recrited by David Lane. So, the Wheel keeps turning. The Bible states in Proverbs that there is nothing new under the Sun. There are just many new recycled Sons!
Jim

Hi Jim,
We lived in NZ for five years, at first in Auckland for a short time and then moved to Havelock North. We did go to satsang in Auckland but I don’t remember Stephen Fine. When we lived in Havelock North we used to hold satsang in our home, only a very few people, not many satsangis around in that area.
I think everyone loved Sam Busa, he was a very warm and sincere person. This is a short video (not very good quality) of Sam Busa chatting with Maharaj Ji, also Bob Atwell (Durban rep)… (3:02)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KolYnEoTln4
Gosh, I am enjoying this visit down memory lane, thanks Brian, hope you don’t mind.

@Jen,,,thanks for that Video. I had never seen that one before, in that Video, that is EXACTLY how Charan looked like, age, cloths and all, when he appeared to me, inside while in meditation. Plus, about half way thru that Video, he tapped a Guy on his shoulder, after the Guy said some thing to him. Well Charan tapped me on the shoulder the exact same way, on my right shoulder, after he said,…” just use less, Brother”, than vaporized! So, he may have used that friendly jesture with many Satsangis in the past, of tapping them on the shoulder, I don’t know, as I was only initisted by him 4 months before he left the body. So I never had a chance to spend any time in his physical presence, but I have always taken the Bible Verse on Faith, that,..,”the first shall be last,…while the last shall be first.” And receiving my $100,000 Physical Life Insurance Policy in the Mail signed by a Life insurance Agent’s hand written Signature,….Charan Singh,……. well that is the kind of Faith Building Synchronicity 777 keeps talking about!
Jim

https://relationshipscience.com/person/charan-singh-4134636
Jim Sutherland has a $100,000 Life Insurence Policy singhed by Charan Singh that will coire Feb. 6, 2020. I never knew the Agent when I bought the Policy over the phone , until zinreceived it in the msil. I had just been initiated in to Sant Mat by Roland de Vries by Proxy for Charan Singh. Of course, these thing just happen every day, and are meaningless, to,………Skeptics.
Jim Sutherland

Expire on ! Not coire,
I received it in the mail
My autospel is not working. Sorry! When it does, it adds words I never wrote
Jim

@ Jim,
That experience with Charan appearing in meditation, lovely. Just watching him in these videos and thinking what a beautiful being!
You say “And receiving my $100,000 Physical Life Insurance Policy in the Mail signed by a Life insurance Agent’s hand written Signature,….Charan Singh,……. well that is the kind of Faith Building Synchronicity 777 keeps talking about!”
Wow, as synchronicity goes, thats really cool.

And more publicity on this today….
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/company/corporate-trends/fortis-fight-comes-to-blows-malvinder-singh-accuses-shivinder-of-assault/videoshow/66980113.cms
https://www.forbes.com/sites/meghabahree/2018/12/10/the-singh-brothers-feud-gets-physical-malvinder-accuses-shivinder-of-assault/amp/

@Jim
“Devotees worship the impermance of youth, when Life’s a Bitch, then we all die?
Yes but. No No. No.
You don’t need to hear the Shabd even in an intensive way
Much earlier then the phenomenon that YOU ARE REALLY THAT ( the Sound)
you know / strongly feel That
From that moment on you really know that death concerns our body but not us.
This is fantastic for the elderly. haha. 🙂
Great Path
PS
Like with Asprin, . . Charan is ready withe a Flute. , . . . . . . .
777
OMG. > I preached a little to a preacher
I did seminarium too, 2 years 11 – 12
brought me latin/grec

Dear Arjuna,
You said “I am looking for truth”
On the blogs and news, really ? and not inside yourself ?
If you allow yourself for an online text to satisfy your hunger, it’s inevitable that some other text will disturb your digestion as well.
On the other hand if you’ll find the inner satisfaction, nothing in this world can disturb you slightly.
Had that been the case, then even if the World Bank gives trillions to HIM to manage the funds better for the betterment of the humanity,
Or, even if the 7.5 billion people would be pointing fingers to your Master,
it wouldn’t have made a difference for you.
We are only getting disturbed because we are still outward and downward.

Hi Jen
I noticed the sound at the end faded out.
Here is the alternate ending, with Tommy’s poetry, to one of his favorite pieces of music, Debussy’s The Engulfed Cathedral
https://youtu.be/q8ILdJGnrMw

Quote Jim the Troll:
“unlike Trolls like AP does, and takes liberty to Troll Big Wheel personalities like David Lane, Osho, Brian Hines, Manjit, humping and peeing on their pant legs, looking for pats on the head, and petting , by asking silly questions that Puppie dog AP Troll imagines will impress readers , that he/she/it is a real High IQ Smarty Pants.”
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, Jim. Yes, he’s a “Th.D.”, apparently; he’s also, apparently, a mystic who has deep inner visions; and he likes to offer spiritual guidance to others — yes, we’re talking of the the author of these sparkling gems, quoted above !!!
He’s wholly incapable of cogent reasoning and argument. He’s a nasty weirdo. He spends his days haunting blogs like this, vomiting out his crazy dogmas, and his insanity, and when he disagrees with people then, instead of addressing their argument, he keeps on repeatedly personalizing the issue and throw out unprovoked insults on others.
He disagrees with Osho Robbins, and instead of addressing his argument, calls him a “Whore Master”. He disagrees with Brian and, unable to address his arguments, insults him about his marijuana use in the past. He disagrees with me, and instead of addressing my arguments, first calls me “Cat’s Poop”, and now the gems you see above.
And this — this! — is Jim the “Th.D”. Imagine the quality of this troll’s degrees. The irony is, this troll keeps call me a troll!
Oh, and this — this — is someone who’s been having ineffable spiritual visions. Or so he would have us believe.
He remains a nasty unkind old crazy, stupid and incapable of cogent thought, without courtesy, without decency, a crazy whom I wouldn’t ever dream of letting in my house. And he would have us believe that he has these wondrous inner visions.
This is lying, plain and simple. A pathetic crazy trying desperately to gather followers by lying through his teeth about all manner of inner visions.
Quote Jim the inveterate liar:
“accusing me of possibly calling my wife a Whore.”
Jim’s stupid, I know, but surely not so stupid that he did not understand what I’d said to him? He’s simply being dishonest here. This is one dishonest liar, who has been lying throughout his life about his “experiences”, and is lying now about what I’d said to him.
He’s calling me a “troll”, because I choose to comment anonymously. I’ve clearly explained to him more than once what a troll is — someone who, like him is abusive, and someone who comments irrationally and primarily to get a rise out of others — and instead of addressing even this argument, he insists on insulting me by calling me a troll. The irony, of this inveterate troll calling others a troll!
So I told him this is exactly as if he disagrees with his wife and, instead of addressing her arguments, he calls her a whore. Or he disagrees with his son and, instead of addressing their argument, calls him a bastard.
That’s exactly what he’s doing here. He disagrees with Osho Robbins, and calls him a Whore Master. He disagrees with Brian, and calls him a marijuana abuser. He disagrees with me, and keeps calling me a troll — and now has started lying about what I said about his wife.
Quote Jim the Crazy Nut Job:
“We, who are not ashamed to stand by what we write, as David Lane, I, and others who use our real Names do, also post our email Addresses inviting private communications or criticisms. You, 777, and Osho Robbins have linked your photos, so at least, I know you are Guys, and not Robot Trolls, as AP might be. “
There’s no “we”, you crazy old fool. Don’t equate yourself with people like Brian, or David, or Osho Robbins, or Spence. You’re a crazy and nasty old man, and have nothing in common with any of these folks.
Jim the shameless hypocrite further says:

“Also, there have only been a few, very few, that have posted such Vitriol against me here, as AP has posted, in the 25 years or so years I have posted on David Lane’s site and here.”
Great. You can throw unprovoked personal insults at Osho Robbins; you can throw unprovoked insults at Brian; and you can repeatedly throw unprovoked insults at me. But we are not to return insult for insult ever, eh?
I’ve given you plenty of chances, you old reprobate. I’ve laughed at your insults, then tried to parry them with sharp yet civil repartees, and only when I’ve finally run out of patience with your repeated insults that I’ve started giving it back to you.
You should have been paid in this coin years back, that would have taught you civility and decency — something your own parents evidently have never taught you, you asshole!
Quote Jim the crazy old hypocrite:
“So, come out of hiding AP, and either contact me privately, or quit stalking me.
Jim Sutherland”
This is rich. This is fucking rich!
This crazy old pervert keeps asking me — he’s done this four or five times — about my personal details. When I ask him to desist from this crazy stalking, he turns around and accuses me of stalking!
Projection much ??!
It’s Jim who keeps throwing wholly random insults at me — as in this comment here — and accuses me of stalking him!
It’s Jim who keeps desperately approaching me again and again and again to privately convey my personal details to his email, against my express wishes — he’s done this four or five times — and then turns out and accuses me of stalking him!
What is one to do with shameless lying old hypocrite like this?
And this — this pathetic specimen — claims to be guiding people spiritually, and claims to have all kinds of inner visions!
Jim the inveterate liar, Jim who is dishonest through and through, Jim the semi-literate who claims some weird Mickey Mouse doctoral degree, Jim the charlatan, Jim the crazy weirdo, Jim the nasty old man, Jim the pervert stalker!
Gods above, he would have us believe that he — he of all people — is someone who possesses some kind of ineffable spiritual wisdom that we ordinary folks do not have access to!

Hi Osho
You wrote
“I personally would not allow someone I love to go to jail if I can help it in any way – I would prefer to go to jail myself instead and I don’t care what the law says.”
That’s a beatiful sentiment, given the transgressor has at least acknowledged their part.
Are you offering to pay his debt?
That’s what the good Samaritan did.
Why not start a collection?
$20B to go…..
If you will start it, I’ll throw in a few bucks.

@Spence
you wrote:
That’s a beautiful sentiment, given the transgressor has at least acknowledged their part.
well that is news to me.
When did he acknowledge his part in any wrong-doing?
as far as I know there has been no court hearing and you have already pronounced your own guru as guilty.
What does you inner guru have to say about this?
is he in agreement with you?

@spence
Hi Spence
since you came up with the new theory that there are two Gurinders
as if one was not enough.
The question is this:
you’re not really saying there are two
actually you are saying there are millions of them
because by two you mean
1) the outer one
2) the inner one
but the inner one is many – one inside each disciple
so the question is this
do all these “inner” gurinders agree with each other – or can they say different things
and
secondly
do the INNER masters agree with the OUTER master?
I mean are they are least distant relatives?
are they in fact the same or different?
as you point out the outer one isn’t much help with the issue about what happened
but the inner one should know everything
surely he can shed some light about all this
if you in fact meet the inner master, then please do me a favour and ask him, tonight, when you meditate, “WHF is going on, man?”
when he asks you what you mean – spew out all the details and demand answers
and if he doesnt give you all the answers, tell him it’s all over and you will never meditate again.
joking aside – what i mean is the inner master should have the answers
when I was a disciple, long long ago, I had one question I would ask every master I met
same question and nobody ever gave me a satisfactory answer
at the time there were many claimants to the kirpal successorship.
I personally met these five:
Thakar, Ajaib, Darshan, Dr Harbhajan, Soami Divyanand.
they all claimed successorship but were not exactly friends.
So I was wondering who the real one was.
so this was my question to them
Since meeting the Radiant form of Kirpal inside is one of the most elemantary stages compared to completing the whole journey and arriving at Sach kand, surely all the successors had at the least met the radiant form
That was a reasonable assertion to make
so the question was this:
this radiant form of Kirpal : why does he not say to the fake successors
“Listen pal – you’re not my successor – so back off and let my real successor do his work”
or at least
“Hey, Divy (short for Divyanand), you are not my successor – so quit your mission and go join Ajaib because he’s the real thing.”
In other words why does the inner radiant form not give proper guidance to the successors. Would save a lot of hassle.
Not a single guru was able to give me he answer.
Of course I have the answer now – but I don’t want to spoil it for anyone right now.
I wil later.
for now I want to ask Spence, one-initiated, Jim, and anyone else who claims to have the inner master, why does the inner master not tell you what’s going on?
why does he not give you answers?
if he doesn’t that would suggest that you are all deluded, because you inner master is not giving any real answers – just whatever you want to believe
I can show you ppl who say they talk to Jesus. So what’s the difference then?

Hi Osho!
So we are still her discussing this….OK, let me be brief…
You wrote:
“you’re not really saying there are two
actually you are saying there are millions of them
because by two you mean
1) the outer one
2) the inner one”
I mean that I’m in a deep state of conflict between the two sides of Gurinder.
The one I love within, who has helped me and helped raise my son, who was chosen by Maharaji, the one whose Satsangs are funny, inspiring, compassionate, forgiving, wise and powerful.
and the one who is clearly a mastermind of financial schemes, a fraud and a thief, and worse still, silent and unresponsive.
So, I can’t resolve it. But I know for a Subjective fact the subjective truth of the inner one.
And I know for an objective fact, the truth of the outer one, the physical one.
And what does the inner one tell me?
“Go with your gut! ”
What does Maharaji say within? “Proceed. Your judgment is not wrong.”
But this is subjective.
It’s not my imagination, sadly.
There is a reason for all this.
And we should be forgiving, and respectful.
But when laws have been broken and ethics violated, we must do our duty.
Because to forgive a crime when the crimes are still continuing is to aid the crime.
The only objectivity that exists is the evidence. And it is overwhelming. Fraud is fraud.
So where is the conflict?
The inner masters and the outer evidence is in agreement.
But I don’t like it and I don’t understand it.
And that’s as far as it goes. I must live with the facts, subjective and objective.
I want to love both, but they both want me to love the Truth more.

@spence
Let me ask you a few questions. Interrogation coming up…….. now
Are you a criminal?
Ever committed a robbery at gunpoint? I presume not
Ever murdered anyone? I presume not
Ever told a lie?
Ever stolen anything?
Have you ever taken the side of someone who did any of the above and still sided with them, helping them cover it up? (conspiring in the crime with them)
Ever committed Adultery?

One small joke before I continue.
A priest has lost his sermon notes so tells everyone he has to do it without notes.
The sermon is on the ten commandments
When he gets to “thou shalt not commit adultery”
He says “OMG I just remembered where I left my notes”

So on the whole, would you say you are a good person?
Almost everyone answers YES to that one and NO to being a criminal
When I used to run seminars, I would ask the audience
“Raise your hands if you have ever met a bad person”
Almost all hands are raised.
Then I ask “Raise your hands if YOU are a bad person”
No hands
“Raise your hands if you are a good person” all hands up.
So – I conclude
“There are lots of BAD people around as you have met them.
However take a good look around – there is not a single bad person in this room
None of you claim to be BAD so where are all the bad people?
Hmmmm….. interesting
I suggest we might have filters that filter incoming information.
So it appears to us that “I am a good person”
How? Does this magical trick work? Simple
It’s a process called JUSTIFICATION.
If I do something “WRONG” there is always a GOOD REASON why I HAD to do it.
But if YOU do the same thing wrong – you are a CRIMINAL and must be PUNISHED – no excuses.
However now let’s get the real answers from Ray Comfort
I am no fan of Ray’s – but he does a good job here of showing ppl they are not as good as they think.
Go here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChWiZ3iXWwM
forward to 42:00 and play up to 47:00 exactly 5 mins
then turn it off
if you have Christian values, you now know you are a criminal.
(the next step is Ray says you need Jesus to save you or else you are fucked for eternity)
Just as a sidebar, this makes God guilty of conspiracy and playing favourites
God himself sides with criminals, because God lets criminals get away scott free, just so long as a guy called CHRIST vouches for them and says “that person is my friend – he believed in me – so let him off the hook”
That’s called conspiracy to commit a crime – siding with a known criminal.
No matter how great a criminal he is – a long as he produces the JESUS SAVES card – he is saved from hell. Now I can see why there are so many Christians around. Tempting….
Let me now ask:
Have you ever broken the speed limit – then you are a criminal as you have
BROKEN THE LAW!!!
Have you ever lied? Well YOU ARE A LIAR
Have you ever cheated on your tax returns? Well you are a FRAUDSTER
In the UK, ever watched TV without a TV LICENCE? Well that makes you a criminal
If you have company, ever filled the accounts late? It’s a criminal offence!
The definition of CRIME has changed over the years
Almost everyone you meet is now a criminal,
They are certainly all LIARS and FRADUSTERS
Yet they ALL claim to be GOOD PEOPLE
Go figure that out and I will continue this after your response

@Spence
You wrote:
I mean that I’m in a deep state of conflict between the two sides of Gurinder.
The one I love within, who has helped me and helped raise my son, who was chosen by Maharaji, the one whose Satsangs are funny, inspiring, compassionate, forgiving, wise and powerful.
and the one who is clearly a mastermind of financial schemes, a fraud and a thief, and worse still, silent and unresponsive.

The issue is with labels.
You are labelling Gurinder as, in your words,
A THIEF
A FRAUD
And on top of all that, guilty because of his silence on the matter.

Like I said in my previous posting, we all commit “crimes” but justify them
Example from the Ray comfort’s video I posted
Ray: Every stolen anything?
NO
Ray: Downloaded music illegally?
YES
Ray: Then you HAVE stolen , and you are a THIEF
The issue is with labels.
A person tells a lie. Deal with the lie. If there was a reason, it’s fine.
LABEL version
The person told a LIE so he is a LIAR (It’s PERSONAL)
Now it’s about the PERSON not the ACT. (by the way this is what Judgemental means)
So a LIAR is a BAD person.
So you have LABELLED gurinder as a LIAR and a FRAUD
So in your mind he is a BAD person
And it’s not good to let a BAD person off the hook.
But – if you’re a Christian,
I am sorry – but you can let a bad person off the hook
Because your God does it.
If you say “I let Jesus into my heart” that’s it – you are forgiven – no matter how BAD you was!
Does this make any sense at all?

Sidebar on JUDGEMENT
Person X told a lie – or more accurately it appears to me he was untruthful
Person X did something I think was fraudulent (but I could be wrong after further facts come out)
Stating the above is not being Judgemental – because you are not concluding the person is a BAD person.
However, as soon as you say “Person X is a LIAR” – that is a judgement
As soon as you say “Person X is a FRAUDSTER” – that is a judgement

So Spence, when you say “I try not to be judgemental”
You are telling a lie (but I won’t label you as a LIAR)
You are lying because you have already passed judgement.
But you justify it in your own mind, so you still claim to be a good person.
This is the process and that is why you have conflict.
Gurinder is not anything – either good or bad. He is a person.
Some things you will LIKE about him and some things you won’t like.
That is to do with your own personal likes and dislikes.
Now for the truth
There are no BAD people.
There are no GOOD people
There are just people
Some examples:
A muslim (Eats HALAL meat only)
A Christian (Eats meat – except certain meats)
A Sikh (eats non HALAL meat)
A RSSB follower (Doesn’t eat meat)
Me (Osho Robbins) (Irrelevant)
Each of them have different beliefs about Good and bad.
A muslim thinks eating meat does not make him bad
The RSSB begs to differ and says it is evil to kill animals
The muslim says “God allows it in the Koran – so it’s okay”
Some Sikhs eat meat but consider “halal meat” bad because it causes more pain to the animal (the blood is drained apparently)
Each has their own reason.
So what is the truth?
I would say the last person on the list has the truth (but I am biased)
Osho Robbins says “It’s all bullshit”
Everyone has their own standards and they feel their standard is the truth.
Spence has a different standard from GSD
Spence may commit small frauds (like a small lie of his tax form)
But if the gets caught – I am sure the IRS will not consider it a SMALL lie
Kids play with toy cars
Grownups play with bigger cars
Billionaires play with even bigger cars.
Obviously the size of a fraud is going to be in line with the game you are playing.
A billionaire is not going to care about a few hundred thousand dollars.
A person running a $100.000 a year business cares even about $5000
In your mind Gurinder is guilty because you have labelled him a criminal
You have further evidence because he has not given an explanation.
The silence means he is guilty, in your mind.
None of this is actually true.
GOOD and BAD are arbitrary standards.

@Spence
So, I can’t resolve it. But I know for a Subjective fact the subjective truth of the inner one.
And I know for an objective fact, the truth of the outer one, the physical one.
And what does the inner one tell me?
“Go with your gut! ”
What does Maharaji say within? “Proceed. Your judgment is not wrong.”
But this is subjective.
It’s not my imagination, sadly.

There are no Subjective facts – subjective means it’s not a fact.
You also don’t know the objective facts – you only have one version – there has been no trial. You don’t know what the agreement was between the singh brothers and the dhillon empire.
People fall out in business all the time – and they sue each other also – it’s normal in business. Fraud also happens all the time. There is a fine line between legal and fraud.
Tax evasion is illegal and called fraud
Tax avoidance is legal and not called fraud.
Both accomplish the same outcome – to save tax.
Fine line.
When you say the inner master says “Go with your gut”
Tell him you want answers – not “777” type answers – but clear ones.
If he cant give them – then you are deluded because you have no inner master.
Your inner master then tells you that you are not wrong
Meaning, You are right.
How can your inner master disagree with the outer one?
Is this some kind of Schizophrenia?
What’s the point of having a living master?
If he is not going to agree with you inner one?
If you have an inner message from the inner master
You go tell the outer master and he says, “No – you are mistaken”
Are you going to go with the inner or the outer?
If the inner, then why bother having an outer?
Otherwise you are cutting at the very core of the RSSB teachings of needing a living master.
Why would you need a living master if he is not reliable?
If you go with the inner, then you have to logically drop the whole RSSB teachings because the outer master is fundamental to the teachings. Huge emphasis is put on the LIVING MASTER.
You no longer agree – so you don’t qualify as a believer. You can’t selectively choose what to believe and still claim to be a follower

@Spence

There is a reason for all this.
And we should be forgiving, and respectful.

Spence, can’t you see the obvious?
You just said “We should be forgiving and respectful”
But are you? Forgiving and respectful?
Clearly not forgiving and not respectful either
So why say the “should” when you are not!

Then you give your reason: (justification)
Which is also confirmed by you inner master to make it more real for you
But when laws have been broken and ethics violated, we must do our duty.
Because to forgive a crime when the crimes are still continuing is to aid the crime.
The only objectivity that exists is the evidence. And it is overwhelming. Fraud is fraud.

Now let me give you a new scenario
Gurinder calls you up
“Hey listen Spence, I have $50 Million for you here, all you have to do is……”
I am sure you will take the deal.
Especially if he assures you, you cannot get caught.
Then you won’t be accusing him of any crime, because you will be a beneficiary.
Before you say “I would never do that”
Watch this video by Derren Brown – could you kill a cat?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2YSNm66sQQ

people do fraud and theft everyday – it’s commonplace.
If you don’t believe me – just watch mystery diners
Every episode contains fraud and theft
And when the people get caught – they justify it in various ways
So my question is:
Why are you so against GSD?
Especially as you claim to have an “inner gurinder?” that you claim to love
And just as a sidebar, you do know that if he does get convicted (which I am sure he is NOT going to let happen – lots of ways to avoid this) then RSSB will be finished overnight
For two reasons – (1) the govt may take over all the property as proceeds of crime
And (2) a convicted guru is going to shatter everyone belief – who can possibly
A legit successor after that?
So – here is the answer to your big question:
GSD does not claim to be a perfect man, because there is no such thing.
If he had done something shocking like murder, you might make a big thing of it.
But what he has done (if he has done it) is what businesses do every day.
They just don’t get caught.
Personally I don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s normal.
A business deal was made to make certain payments
When they wanted the money back – it couldn’t be given because the property market declined sharply.
What do you want him to do?
One minute he is your guru – the next he is a criminal
That is your love?
Please don’t insult the word love.
And you can’t love the inner when you hate the outer
It’s inconsistent and delusional.

@spence
if you want to know some of the biggest scams in history
the Fed, the IRS, all these are real scams

JFK got shot – trying to free america by disbanding the fed
now that is also a crime and much much bigger
murder is nothing to the real criminals – yet nobody does anything about that
Ask you inner guru about that

Osho today :
“”” Tell him you want answers – not “777” type answers – but clear ones.””””
Not speaking about the moronic of this statement without semantics of ‘type’
. . . this is the the precise example of the dishonesty
of shoving people out of the way , far away,
next discussing about them
Btw
I came only to promote healthy reasoning !
777

It’s OK Osho.
Different values.

@777
it’s nothing personal – I am not criticizing you
“777” has just become a noun for me here – so don’t get upset over it.
I also go into 777 mode at times – so it’s not big deal

Hi Osho
You wrote
“A business deal was made to make certain payments
When they wanted the money back – it couldn’t be given because the property market declined sharply.”
Unfortunately, Osho, this is not accurate.
A major stockholder at Religare used his influence to place two of his relatives in high positions at the newly formed Fortis, and his own son as their senior Operations officer.
Both of the relatives had already been found guilty of tainted meds at their prior company. They sold the company without disclosing this, and used the money to help start Religare. And to appoint this major stockholder to the Religare board.
While at Fortis they gave a series of loans to a dozen different companies that all shared the same small leathergoods storefront address.
When the loan payments came due these two just created new loans.
None of the loans had collateral.
No payments were ever made on them.
The total loans exceeded $400 million US. And all were made in secret, hidden from board oversight, and in violation of both company policy and standard financial practice.
And all these companies had one thing in common, besides their single tiny storefront address : The senior principle owner is the wife of the major Religare stockholder.
This was a designed scheme. It’s called a shell scheme and these were shell companies.
All the above is fact, established by two independent audits conducted by the board, who, on the basis of these audits, forced the two to leave their positions at Fortis. The two have never contested their legal rights to a fair decision simply because the evidence is overwhelming and to bring this into court will also pull in all the accomplices involved.
Now much of the board is trying to get their money back, even though one of the board members is also the major Religare stock holder mentioned above. Even in his senior role he was unable to prevent their expulsion, due to the strength of the evidence, and obviously, his role in the affair. Still, the board wants some level of justice.
If they don’t get some recompense and acknowledgement the next step is the courts, because all the evidence has already been established.

@Spence Tepper
This comment is going to focus on one thing alone
I concede the matter that you detailed above – I have not looked into the details – and you obviously have. You didn’t mention names – you said “wife of” presumably thats the wife of GSD. you just didnt make it clear.
However, that aside, I have one specific point about “inner Gurus and Radiant forms.
First let’s just make it clear
When you say inner guru – are you referring to the Radiant form as depicted in RSSB literature
which means the true form of the guru – you meet in the astral region.
and NOT: an image of the guru that may appear in your mind
or some delusional idea where you think the guru is talking to you
So does this radiant form appear once you leave your body and reach the first region?
that’s the first criteria
If not- that ends the matter -because we are not talking about the radiant form in that case
so please clarify that first

@Spence

C O N S I S T E N C Y
According to the sant mat teachings the Radiant Form of the master is the TRUE FORM, while the outer master is a human being like us. However the outer master and the Radiant form are of the same person – the master.
It is inconsistent to separate them, into the GOOD and the BAD one.
it makes a complete mockery of the whole teachings to say
“The inner master is the true and honest one – whereas the outer physical guru may lie, cheat, commit fraud and may be dishonest, but don’t worry, you just hold on to the inner guru and forget all about the outer physical guru”
In fact the teaching say the opposite. The disciple who genuinely has the Radiant form and communicates with it daily, also has great love for the physical master.
I can even cite an incident about this. It was Sawan Singh – who was sad one day about his guru Baba Jaimal SIngh. A disciple asked – “But you have his inner form inside you?”
Sawan replied, “What I would give for just a glimpse of the physical again!”
meaning he has supreme love for the outer
not
“Yes the inner guru is great, but the outer is a complete asshole, that needs to go to jail”
I have never heard that version – except from you.
which begs the question – is you “inner master” real or imaginary?

@Spence
You are the only person to make such a statement
separating the two masters – the inner and the outer and asserting one is all pure and the other a hardened criminal
Do you stil consider yourself a follower of the sant mat teachings?
or have you now dropped those teachings as false?
Just want you to make your position clear

“”If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?””
Inside it feels that HE was always there
before your first breath
The reason is that They are you
in the same sense that the Creator is You
but this is extremely comfortable
777

@777

“”If you met Gurinder physically, what would you feel? Love or hate?
And if you met him inside, would it be different?””
Inside it feels that HE was always there
before your first breath

777 – Spence feels Gurinder should be in prison for his crimes
my question to him and to you is:
if he feels that strongly about the physical master,
how can he have love for the inner?
are they different?
is the outer not related to the inner?

@Spence
our account above doesnt mention names – just
“wife of…” “major stockholder”
please say who they are
you end by saying
Now much of the board is trying to get their money back, even though one of the board members is also the major Religare stock holder mentioned above. Even in his senior role he was unable to prevent their expulsion, due to the strength of the evidence, and obviously, his role in the affair. Still, the board wants some level of justice.
If they don’t get some recompense and acknowledgement the next step is the courts, because all the evidence has already been established.
My pointot is this:
This is not exactly the crime of the century.
What made the news is the fact that the Singh brother lost a lot of money and went from billionaire status to almost penniless.
You say two people got fired, but they never went to prison – so it was clearly not a criminal matter.
Aren’t you blowing this out of proportion?
Okay – I agree some shell companies were set up – and loans made, with agreements in place.
Happens all the time in business.
They never made any payments – as long as the two parties are happy to continue on that basis – it’s nobody else’s business.
You say it was done in secret – without the board being aware – well the chairman of the board must have known – as he is in charge.
Nothing happens without the knowledge of the chairman.
I haven’t looked into it in detail – but from your account – not sure how you conclude that Gurinder is a criminal and should be behind bars.
If that was the case, how come he wasn’t arrested at some point?

Go Osho
You wrote
“You say it was done in secret – without the board being aware – well the chairman of the board must have known – as he is in charge.
Nothing happens without the knowledge of the chairman.”
Not in this case. When the board became aware they ordered up audits, the first by Luthra and Luthra accounting.
One board never was aware, Gurinder, but he was silent.
(You really should read this evidence for yourself, Osho.)
And then based on the evidence the expulsions.
And now the efforts to recuperate at much as possible by first attempting to settle out of court.
Yes its criminal activity, but you need a plaintiff willing to go to the police.. The plaintiff is getting to avoid the time and expense, if possiblem

@spence
“Yes its criminal activity, but you need a plaintiff willing to go to the police.. The plaintiff is getting to avoid the time and expense, if possible”
if it was a criminal matter, it would go to the police and he would be arrested. It doesn’t involve the plaintiff in any costs. If the police take the case, it costs the police, not the plaintiff.
More likely – it’s a civil case – and not criminal. Recovery of money owed is a civil case.

@Spence
I asked you

It is inconsistent to separate them, into the GOOD and the BAD one.
it makes a complete mockery of the whole teachings to say
“The inner master is the true and honest one – whereas the outer physical guru may lie, cheat, commit fraud and may be dishonest, but don’t worry, you just hold on to the inner guru and forget all about the outer physical guru”

You have not addressed this point.
It appears to me you are not talking about the Radiant form of the master, but just your inner dialogue with an imaginary master within who you just call the “inner Gurinder”
That seems to be the only explanation. If not, please explain.

Spence will put Gurinder to prison even if he is not guilty. No Spence doesn’t love Gurinder inner and outer.

Zu
You wrote
“Spence will put Gurinder to prison even if he is not guilty. No Spence doesn’t love Gurinder inner and outer.”
Not at all. You haven’t read what I’ve written. I’ll be the first to forgive and forget.
But a crime was committed, and the criminals at least need to acknowledge their complicity.
Their very silence is their admission they are, active or passive, accomplice to robbery.
More frightening is the willingness of peoole like you to justify criminal behavior.
Would you be so compassionate with your neighbor?
Would you shut the doors of every court, lay off all police, to justify every other criminal?
I would too, if there never were possibility of a victim.
But closing the charitable hospital crossed a line.
A curtain was forever torn.
And the light revealed an ugly truth about what people like you have created.
You are not defending Gurinder.
You are making excuses for your own failings.

Hi Osho
You ask
“It appears to me you are not talking about the Radiant form of the master, but just your inner dialogue with an imaginary master within who you just call the “inner Gurinder”
Perhaps this is the radient form.
As I’ve said before, it’s subjective.
It seems you want to make it objective.
But why not clarify the objective? You can read the details for yourself directly. That much you can do. The picture they paint is ugly. But it is fact.

@spence
“It appears to me you are not talking about the Radiant form of the master, but just your inner dialogue with an imaginary master within who you just call the “inner Gurinder”
Perhaps this is the radiant form.
As I’ve said before, it’s subjective.

So you are saying, anyone who claims to have the radiant form, is authentic, just because its subjective.
There are very specific criteria for the radiant form.
It is not the same as me imagining and thinking of Gurinder talking to that inner image.
That is definitely not the radiant form

Osho
It surprises me how concerned you are about the legitimacy of my personal subjective experience , how determined you seem to be to make me wrong, to disapprove any statement, to deny any possibility outside your definition.
But here we have a crime. A series of robberies have taken place. The evidence is objective and available due scrutiny.
These have no interest for you.
As I wrote earlier, we have different values.

@spence
you wrote:
It surprises me how concerned you are about the legitimacy of my personal subjective experience , how determined you seem to be to make me wrong, to disapprove any statement, to deny any possibility outside your definition.
I am not concerned and I am certainly not determined to make you wrong. I am going by what YOU are writing. Sant mat has certain criteria so people don’t kid themselves.
Die to Live page 222 states: “The whole world ceases to exist for you when you are in love, and when that state of love comes, only then you see the Radiant Form of the master – not before”
That is pretty clear. You have to have intense love for the physical master before you can hope for any inner darshan. So by that criteria, you are clearly deluded, as you have contempt for the outer master, yet claim to have the inner master. According to RSSB teachings, that is not possible, so you are deluded.
You seem fixated on the apparent crime of your master’s successor. You certainly have no love for him. Yet you claim to have made progress inside. You are clearly deluded, just based on your own statements, not my opinion.
It makes no difference to me.
Regarding the series of robberies…..
There have been no robberies, except in your mind. You are not an appointed judge.
It is a private matter between shareholders, the company board and the individuals concerned. You cannot call it a robbery.
You clearly do not love Gurinder, your master’s successor. You can’t think much of your master for appointing him. You question his decision to close the charity hospital.
You have in your mind created two masters – inner and outer. These are not the RSSB teachings. These are your own.
I don’t concern myself with the so called “wrongdoings” of Gurinder. I don’t have the evidence and I am not an appointed judge. There is not even a trial. The due process of law will handle this at the appropriate time. It’s not my job or yours.
However we are having a discussion, and according to the answers you are giving, you are clearly delusional about the “inner master.”
This is why I asked you to get clarification from the inner master, and all he told you was “you are not wrong” which is exactly what you would tell yourself. He gave no useful explanation

@Spence
Let’s get real about this.
“Inner master” or “Radiant form” definitely does not mean a mental projection and then talking to that mental projection.
If that is the meaning of Radiant form to you, then obviously you can make up anything. You can ask that mental projection any question you want and get any answer you want.
No wonder you love the inner master – it’s your own mental projection.

Right Osho there is total difference of appearance of inner stuff than imagine it of your own and there is also difference of mental illnes than Real inner stuff . Real inner stuff settles down with time as natural state.

Hi Osho
You wrote:
“That is pretty clear. You have to have intense love for the physical master before you can hope for any inner darshan. So by that criteria, you are clearly deluded, as you have contempt for the outer master, yet claim to have the inner master. According to RSSB teachings, that is not possible, so you are deluded. ”
Osho, whether I love the Master or not, whether I am deluded or actually following Baba Ji’s orders to the letter, how can anyone else know?
But I would certainly take your position from your point of view. I understand completely.
I wish there were a better way to explain things.
To be precise the crime is fraud and embezzlement:
?em·bez·zle·ment
/əmˈbezəlmənt/Submit
noun
theft or misappropriation of funds placed in one’s trust or belonging to one’s employer.
“charges of fraud and embezzlement”
synonyms: misappropriation, theft, stealing, robbery, thieving, pilfering, purloining, pilferage, appropriation, swindling; ”
As for the crime, that is established by the evidence.
Baba Ji helped place his RSSB Board Chair, the Singh Brothers and his own son into key management positions at Fortis.
The Singh brothers made secret loans totalling over $40M to Baba Ji’s wife, Subnam Singh, which were never repaid.
The loans had no collateral, in direct violation of company policy.
When loan payments were due, the brothers simply created new loans.
The board was not aware this was happening at the time.
This is siphoning corporate funds.
$400 M and more…embezzled from Fortis corporation into Subnam Dhillon’s hands.
Very simple.
You can read the most recent article about the secret Dhillon family business sounds in this Forbes article that just came out three days ago.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dennisjaffe/2018/09/24/how-to-lose-a-2-billion-family-inheritance-the-tale-of-the-singh-brothers-of-india/
Here’s some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion
https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html
And here from Economic Times of Inda
http://hinessight.blogs.com/files/singh-brothers-story.pdf
And also, that Charitable Hospital Gurinder sold for profit…
Just to provide easy access to the facts, here is a summary and links to the evidence
Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.
https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm
And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.
https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/
And more on the Embezzlement and the audits:
Here’s some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion
https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

Hi Osho:
“Dhillon is a cousin of the Singhs’ mother, and he became a surrogate father to them after the death of their own in the late 1990s. Since then, the finances of the spiritual leader and the brothers have grown intertwined, with money flowing from the Singhs to the Dhillon family via loans through shell companies and an array of arcane financial instruments, according to the documents and people familiar with the matter, who asked not to be named because of the ongoing legal probes. ”
“Earlier this year, Bloomberg News reported that the Singhs had taken 5 billion rupees from Fortis without board approval and that a New York investor had filed a lawsuit accusing the brothers of siphoning 18 billion rupees from Religare.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

You seem fixated on the apparent crime of your master’s successor. You certainly have no love for him. Yet you claim to have made progress inside. You are clearly deluded,

Um, there’s a story in “Tales of the Mystic East” (5th Ed.) on pg. 42. It’s titled
“Orders are Orders” about Farid. I couldn’t find it later editions of Tales of
the Mystic East so I’ll relate the gist.
The story is about a river that’s changed course and is destroying the village
fields. Asked to intercede, Farid went to the river and put his attention inside
only to find it was ordained to happen like that. Farid then asks for a shovel
to help accelerate the erosion.
Clearly, had Farid’s outer Master commanded him to help the villagers,
Farid would have been reviled as a crazed lunatic with no love for the
Master as well.
[ hopefully this won’t be viewed as religious claptrap. The thread can be
migrated to AtheistsNBelievers if it is ]

@Spence
you very carefully missed out the following line from the above quote

Dhillon hasn’t been accused of any wrongdoing

The article also says the guru was NOT the cause of the group’s financial troubles.
Sunil Godhwani is however accused of being a key figure.
I have read the whole article and really can’t see how you would call GSD a robber or a criminal and say he should be in prison.
Even the the fraud regulators have not yet reported their findings, but you have already had the trial
is this your main evidence? or you have anything better?

Hi Osho:
“money flowing from the Singhs to the Dhillon family via loans through shell companies and an array of arcane financial instruments, according to the documents and people familiar with the matter”
Osho, this money flowed directly into Subnam’s hands. And you need to read further down:
“They’re less generous to another follower of the spiritual group, Sunil Godhwani, whom they say was appointed to lead Religare at Dhillon’s recommendation. They say Godhwani was also in charge of their holding company, RHC Holding Pvt., and often took decisions without informing them. They say he was the architect of the financial structures, including the loans to the Dhillon family and companies, that led to their financial troubles.”
Godwhani was assigned by Gurinder. Gurinder assigns Godwhani, who then moves money to Gurindar and his wife via “loans” with no capital required, and which were never repaid, through the Singh’s who then blame him.
That responsibility falls upon the Master.
“But most importantly, Rs2,700 crore were transferred to companies owned by the Dhillon family, Gurinder Dhillons wife Shabnam Dhillon and companies associated with RSSB’s senior functionaries. While Religare and Fortis are examples of reckless expansion and its consequences, the money transferred to Dhillon and associates-which (with interest) is now estimated to be between Rs4000-5,000 crore-remains unpaid to the Singhs.
It isnt clear why this money was never returned.”
https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html
The mix of RSSB board members and staff is deeply involved in these dealings:
Prius Platinum, Ground Floor, D3, District Centre, Saket, New Delhi-110017′ could pass off as a nondescript address. Until you notice a striking similarity: Company after company registering it as their official address in the RoC records. At least 16 at last count. Many of them have even declared the same email ID in the RoC records: cs.gysgroup@gmail.com; and are also being audited by the same firm.
Prius Real Estate, Prius Commercial Projects, Best Healthcare, Modland Wears, Fern Healthcare, Addon Realty, Hillgrow Infrastructure, Bestest Developers, Platinum Infrastructure. Even the Singh family’s holding companies, RHC Holding and Oscar Investments, have declared it as their address.
Nearly Rs2,700 crore was routed to these Dhillon-RSSB functionaries companies between 2009 and 2012 through a layered and complex web of subsidiaries. Of that, Rs2,000 crore was invested in two firms–Prius Real Estate and Prius Commercial Projects.
RoC records say Prius Commercial is 84 per cent owned by Dhillons wife Shabnam and 16 per cent by RSSB Delhi head Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney. Prius Real Estate is 50:50 owned by Dhillons elder son Gurpreet and RSSBs Rajveer Singh. Addon Realty, which got Rs100 crore from Fortis, is also run by RSSB’s Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney, his wife Sangeeta Narain and another Satsangi and Singh brothers cousin Sharanbir Singh Sandhu. SGGD Projects is run by brothers Vaibhav and Rahul Wadhwa, both employees of RSSB at Beas. Rahul Wadhwa was also a former Fortis employee. Lowe Infra and Wellness is another realty firm run by Sharanbir Singh Sandhu and Rahul Wadhwa. Singhs now own a majority of this firm. Hillgrow is run by another senior RSSB functionary & Singhs cousin, Jagatbir Singh Sandhu, as its director and signatory.
“Prius Platinum, Ground Floor, D3, District Centre, Saket, New Delhi-110017′ could pass off as a nondescript address. Until you notice a striking similarity: Company after company registering it as their official address in the RoC records. At least 16 at last count. Many of them have even declared the same email ID in the RoC records: cs.gysgroup@gmail.com; and are also being audited by the same firm.
“Prius Real Estate, Prius Commercial Projects, Best Healthcare, Modland Wears, Fern Healthcare, Addon Realty, Hillgrow Infrastructure, Bestest Developers, Platinum Infrastructure. Even the Singh family’s holding companies, RHC Holding and Oscar Investments, have declared it as their address.
“Nearly Rs2,700 crore was routed to these Dhillon-RSSB functionaries companies between 2009 and 2012 through a layered and complex web of subsidiaries. Of that, Rs2,000 crore was invested in two firms–Prius Real Estate and Prius Commercial Projects.
“RoC records say Prius Commercial is 84 per cent owned by Dhillons wife Shabnam and 16 per cent by RSSB Delhi head Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney. Prius Real Estate is 50:50 owned by Dhillons elder son Gurpreet and RSSBs Rajveer Singh. Addon Realty, which got Rs100 crore from Fortis, is also run by RSSB’s Yuvraj Narain Gorwaney, his wife Sangeeta Narain and another Satsangi and Singh brothers cousin Sharanbir Singh Sandhu. SGGD Projects is run by brothers Vaibhav and Rahul Wadhwa, both employees of RSSB at Beas. Rahul Wadhwa was also a former Fortis employee. Lowe Infra and Wellness is another realty firm run by Sharanbir Singh Sandhu and Rahul Wadhwa. Singhs now own a majority of this firm. Hillgrow is run by another senior RSSB functionary & Singhs cousin, Jagatbir Singh Sandhu, as its director and signatory.
https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html
“They also loaned vast amounts of money to companies owned by a family headed by a spiritual leader whom they followed and who was a relative of theirs — Gurinder Singh Dhillon. Dhillon was a businessman as well, and he and members of his sect were central to investments made with loans from the brothers, including investments in a wide-ranging real-estate portfolio.”
“The web is tangled, and some of the Singh brothers’ affairs are currently under criminal investigation by financial authorities. There are allegations of forged documents and the illegal movement of money from public companies to cover loans and investment losses elsewhere. The brothers also lost a lawsuit from the company that bought Ranbaxy for not disclosing problems in the company before the sale, and for this they owe many millions. It appears that the loans and the income from the sale were used to greatly expand their companies — before a downturn, including a real-estate downturn, led to losses in every area of investment.”
“What happened? First of all, there seems to have been no established principles or procedures regarding how money was managed in the Singh family. Money was moved from one entity to another, and in some cases, there was a board and executives who were not consulted. The brothers appeared to believe that their financial empire was theirs to control. They were heirs to a long tradition of family secrecy and lack of oversight. This legacy left them unprepared to exercise business discipline or recognize their responsibility to other shareholders outside the family”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dennisjaffe/2018/09/24/how-to-lose-a-2-billion-family-inheritance-the-tale-of-the-singh-brothers-of-india/#786695bc567a
And money was directly handed to Gurinder’s sons…
“While many of these firms are alleged to be directly or indirectly controlled by the Dhillon family, the Dhillons themselves have had direct dealings with Singh family firms. During Religares public issue in 2007, 62.50 lakh shares representing 9.17 per cent equity each were allotted to Dhillons sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat.”
https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

“While many of these firms are alleged to be directly or indirectly controlled by the Dhillon family, the Dhillons themselves have had direct dealings with Singh family firms. During Religares public issue in 2007, 62.50 lakh shares representing 9.17 per cent equity each were allotted to Dhillons sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat.”

I remember in Maharaji’s era, the RSSB guro’s job was characterized as
one that would bring down an ordinary CEO within months. The touring
alone would leave them isolated and out of touch. Within that quarter
century, that burden must certainly have increased.
Who under those circumstances, might not have delegated many
of the RSSB organizational matters and especially personal financial
affairs to others. Why a relentless drumbeat of hints/innuendo that
GSD was greedy and complicit? Or that any self-respecting GIHF
should’ve known and headed off scandal at the pass. Or that
he should’ve micro-managed others to do it for him?
There’s more to unfold.

Light on sant mat P168
The radiant form of the master is contacted only after one has completely withdrawn his consciousness from the body (i.e. body goes numb) and has gone up and crossed the stars, sun and moon.

This is very clear. These are the teachings. What you are calling the “inner master”, the one you claim is the “good master” is imaginary. That is why it has no answers.
To take an imagined inner image as the radiant form is delusion. The criteria is that your body should be numb and you will first cross the stars, sun, moon.

@spence

It isnt clear why this money was never returned. Dhillon and the Singh brothers did not respond to detailed questions on whether this money was owed to Dhillon and associates for any previous transactions or was only loaned to them.

This is not conclusive evidence. The article says it is unknown.

In the last hearing of the case on August 10, the Delhi High Court froze all bank accounts of the brothers alleging they misled the courts.
Starved of cash, businesses went into a tailspin.

this is a major reason why the singh brothers went under.
If bank accounts get frozen, you can’t pay debts, and the bank re-possessed, taking pledged shares. All they could do is watch as their accounts were frozen.

To take an imagined inner image as the radiant form is delusion. The criteria is that your body should be numb and you will first cross the stars, sun, moon.

Hi Osho,
I suggest that you migrate this thread to AtheistsNBelievers since it’s
getting more heavily religious.
Yes, the “inner master” is Imagination in the beginning. But imagination
is not “delusion” in mystic teachings. As many mystics have famously
remarked “imagination is not as imaginary as we think”.
The disciple imagines the master before him at the “third eye’, holds
that image steadily, does simran to distance himself from the mind’s
thoughts, and/or listens to inner sounds to complete his concentration.
When he perceives the inner form, he receives guidance to go forward.
By the way, the Master lives with his own Master’s form before him at
all times. And, yes, at that point, the inner Master does have answers.

@Spence
clearly there are allegations from both sides

Sources close to Godhwani, however, say the brothers were informed of every move and they signed on most of the documents.
With both the Dhillons and the Singh brothers refusing to respond to detailed questionnaires, it’s hard to decipher what transpired in their business dealings.

it is by no means a conclusive matter. Lots of unanswered questions, which is normal, because unless it goes to court, there is no obligation to answer questions.
The conclusion you have reached of criminal activity is unfounded

Yes, thank you Dungeness:
Osho, you may share your views about the inner Master and what is or is not legitimately the Radiant Form on AtheistNBeliever, where it is respected as a subjective opinion.
But here it is just religion and off topic. Just dogma. That can never be an excuse for fraud and corruption.
This site is for those who reject religious dogma of all kinds, whether old or new versions.
But if the question of ‘what is the true Radiant Form of the Master?’ matters to you, and you believe it is more than imagination, please by all means elucidate that opinion here:
https://atheistnbeliever.blogs.com/atheistnbeliever/2018/12/religion-spirituality-and-money-number-1.html

@Spence
You are an outsider. You don’t know the inside details of any of this.
Neither do I.
It is unreasonable to come to the conclusions that you have come to.
There are allegations made – but you seem to have concluded that the matter is already resolved.
There are on-going investigations.
That is a far cry from “GSD should be in prison”
You inner master is wrong because he is no more than your own mind

@dungeness
You wrote:
I suggest that you migrate this thread to AtheistsNBelievers since it’s
getting more heavily religious.
I am not preaching. I am stating what is written is RSSB books to clarify a point.
Preaching is when you list long religious dogma to try to convert others.
You wrote:
Yes, the “inner master” is Imagination in the beginning. But imagination
is not “delusion” in mystic teachings.
Yes – but the “image” you create is not the radiant form – but your own imagination.
And it would clearly be delusion to talk to an imagined inner master and take the answers as real.
I can imagine a master within me right now and ask him any question and get any answer. Are you seriously suggesting that it is not delusional to rely on such an answer?
You wrote:
The disciple imagines the master before him at the “third eye’, holds
that image steadily, does simran to distance himself from the mind’s
thoughts, and/or listens to inner sounds to complete his concentration.
When he perceives the inner form, he receives guidance to go forward.
Are you speaking from experience?
Such a belief is not only delusional, but also dangerous. You would be classified as mentally ill if you took decisions on such an imagined inner master
You wrote:
By the way, the Master lives with his own Master’s form before him at
all times. And, yes, at that point, the inner Master does have answers.
How do you know this?
What a weird belief to hold. Doesn’t match reality.
If it was true it would be impossible for GSD to close the charitable hospital.

@dungeness
You wrote:
Clearly, had Farid’s outer Master commanded him to help the villagers,
Farid would have been reviled as a crazed lunatic with no love for the
Master as well.
This is a circular argument, as you are assuming the thing you are concluding.
Your assumption is that the inner and outer master can be in conflict.
Do you even realise how ridiculous these ideas are?
I would mean you could go to the mic and ask your guru some question
When he replies, you can say “Sorry dude, but the inner master disagrees”
This idea of two masters who can disagree is a teaching Spence has created,
And you seem to be in agreement.

I am not preaching. I am stating what is written is RSSB books to clarify a point.
Preaching is when you list long religious dogma to try to convert others.

The unholy trinity includes “preachiness, dogmatism, fundamentalism”.
Citing passages fron RSSB books and discussing in depth as we’re
doing certainly flirts with the latter two.

Yes – but the “image” you create is not… I can imagine a master within me right now and ask him any question and get any answer. Are you seriously suggesting that it is not delusional to rely on such an answer?

Yes, it’s delusional if you haven’t completed the full course of
concentration and reached the inner master. Again, though,
I believe this follow-on crosses a religious “dogmatism” threshold
and warrants migration to the “AnB” blog.

The disciple imagines the master before him at the “third eye’, holds
that image steadily, … Are you speaking from experience?

Now you know better than that 🙂

Such a belief is not only delusional, but also dangerous. You would be classified as mentally ill if you took decisions on such an imagined inner master

Yes, it would be if you didn’t complete the course of concentration and
reach the inner form. Your own mental creations disappear at that point.

How you know?

You must experience it yourself. There is no other way to be
convinced; otherwise, you’ll always have doubt.

This idea of two masters who can disagree is a teaching Spence has created,
And you seem to be in agreement.

I’m afraid that can always potentially be true. The outer Master in
Farid’s case might have found it dangerous to say “yeah, go speed
up erosion so people will starve” because the villagers would see it
as an act of lunacy. But maybe in the long run it was best for the
villagers to migrate because a marauding army would come in a
few years later and destroy everything in its path.
So the outer Master who could see this coming would say one thing
outside and have the inner master say sumptin’ entirely different
inside.
Hey, I know we’re going on a religious limb with this kind of talk. As
I mentioned, it’s time to get outta Dodge before the villagers come
with torches and pitchforks.

@dungeness
you wrote:
Yes, it’s delusional if you haven’t completed the full course of
concentration and reached the inner master.
And exactly how do you know when you have completed it?
Anyone can make any claim they want to. And they may believe it.
you also say:
Your own mental creations disappear at that point.
please explain HOW you know something is not your own mental creation.
you have a mind?
can it create mental images and ideas?
that is called a mental creation.
if something is not a mental creation, what is it?
and how do you know?
delusional people think they know
this person is delusional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuFXyuH1voM
but nothing compared to a religiously deluded person.
Let say your inner master tells you to go kill someone
You check with you outer guru and he says no
Your inner guru tells you its for their benefit and you do it.
The whole point of the outer guru is for guidance
GSD has Q&A sessions. Why? if they are not reliable answers.
Spence is not following RSSB teachings. neither are you.
but in your minds you both are
that is delusional.
the story you quoted about farid is in tales of the mystic east
but the conclusion is not – its your own conclusion

if something is not a mental creation, what is it?
and how do you know?…
Let say your inner master tells you to go kill someone
You check with you outer guru and he says no
Your inner guru tells you its for their benefit and you do it.

Mysticism is a path of experience, of a “knowing” that transcends
time-space and mental arguments. Projecting a scenario about
an inner guru telling you to kill simply frames yet another mental
construct. It immerses you in fear and doubt and whispers “You’ll
always live in this uncertainty. There is no way of knowing anything
beyond what I’ve given you.”

The whole point of the outer guru is for guidance GSD has
Q&A sessions. Why? if they are not reliable answers.

They can certainly give you guidance when you’re ready to
receive it. They can advise, provide answers which resonate
with our intellect. But, ultimately it’s a discipline to be practiced,
a path to be experienced inside. That’s where you find the real
answers.

@Dungeness & Spence
What “Real answers” have you found?
It’s easy to state theory.
That is just a belief until you do it for yourself.
I am asking if you have done it – or are just staing what the books say will happen… one day.
Spence claims to have the inner master – but that inner master supplies no answers except a vague “you are right” which means nothing.
And he wants to put GSD beihind bars as in his mind he is already a convicted criminal.
These are not the signs of a devoted disciple who has inner experience.
A devoted disciple would gladly sacrifice his life for his master – that is devotion.
So – the point I am making is really simple:
How can a devotee who wants to put his outer master behind bars, legitimately have an inner connection with the master?
It is impossible.
Spence has an answer – albeit a strange one. He says there are two gurinders.
The one inside who guides him and the outer criminal / robber.
You quoted the story of Farid, the moral of which is “the will of the lord”
but you twisted it to mean that the inner and outer master can disagree.
I am afraid that makes no sense at all. If it did – then it gives a disciple free licence to make up his own teachings since the inner master has precedence over the outer.
The actual teachings are very different. Sawan once said “Oh what I would give for just a glimpse of my master again” and the disciples said “But you have him within” and he said “but the physical form has it’s own special beauty” (thats the gist, may be paraphrased)
If the inner master gives no reliable answers, how can you think he is authentic.
I gave the above example in order to make a point – which you have not answered other than a vague “you’ll know it when you get there”

@dungeness
“That’s where you find the real answers. (inner guru)”
Spence claims to have the inner guru but no answers as to why the outer guru is a robber. He sincerely wants answers – perhaps you can oblige since you also have the same inner guru. Since his is not responding very well – perhaps yours can give him a helping hand.
Do you see the point I am making?
If the inner guru cannot give you any correct information and answers, how do you know you aren’t deluded?
and it’s no good saying ” I just know” because that is the same answer a deluded person is going to give you.
The way you know a person is deluded is the things he says are unreasonable.
I can show you example after example.
just a quick search on youtube will give you hundreds of deluded people who think crazy things like “I am Jesus” and others even believe them.
How is their experience any less valid that say, yours or Spence’s?

The way you know a person is deluded is the things he says are unreasonable.

Hi Osho,
So much of what happens is unreasonable, what is said about it
even crazier, and the dogma that rushes in to fill the void may be
the craziest of all.
We struggle to find consistency in any of it. We’re trapped within
our own flawed thinking and the only relief we have is deciding
“Well, I may be crazy but that poor deluded nut job over there
needs real help”.
I suggest we ignore opinions, swear off blogs, concentrate on a
simple path of mindfulness which has been shown to be healthy,
and enhances happiness, From a little cozy nook inside, you can
survey the jungles outside, sigh, and wonder what the hell was I
doing out there.

Hi Osho:
You wrote:
“If the inner guru cannot give you any correct information and answers, how do you know you aren’t deluded?”
If you are a student of Sant Mat, you must have read in so many places that each of us must make up our own mind. At best, or at first, that the the entire path: Self realization before God realization.
You are inventing a new theology, one where inner revelations are objective fact.
Very few people I know, either Satsangis, or Christians or Jews or even Spiritual Mediums, Sufis or native American Shamen ever claim their knowledge is more than symbolic and subjective.
Inner experience, inner awakening is not terminal, but directional. Inner experience causes us to look more closely at things, more critically, with greater understanding. It isn’t a substitute for using one’s own judgement. Quite the opposite, it is a refinement of that awareness and judgement.
Yet that experience, as Dungeness so eloquently refers to, makes our own insight that much clearer. And is is filled with a greater sense of oneness, and understanding.
Yet even insight is subjective and subject to error.
Who dare claim they are beyond the potential of error?
Is that your claim Osho?
Let me suggest to any reader here to take a look at the amount of time Osho spends trying to label and squeeze other people’s experience, that no one can ever know, into a box.
Osho, why not state your own views without reference to anyone else?
Try it.
That’s actually what the Path is all about. Taking responsibility for our own place.
“Who sums his fellows up at sight
Brings wonder to their eyes…
But he who sums himself aright…
Alone is truly wise..”
Tao

@Spence
In case you don’t realise it – we are discussing certain points here.
In particular the authenticity of the “inner guru” and whether the inner can be in conflict with the outer – which to me seems ridiculous – unless the “inner guru” is a delusion.
What my personal realization is – is irrelevant to this discussion, as that is not the topic we are on.
When my realisation is under discussion and scrutiny – as with AR – I respond as accurately as I can. I don’t run away or get defensive or say “hey – its subjective and that’s it”
Even a subjective experience has to be reasonable as far as it can be examined.
For example watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WgpCBo79DM
of course the guy could be for real and certainly believes it
but how likely – when you examine the evidence around what he does – is it that he really talks to God – as he claims?
That is how we decide – as humans. We don’t just believe every crackpot who makes a claim.
For example the majority of RSSB followers believe Gurinder is the guru because he was appointed – that is their evidence.
If I announce tis hat actually I was appointed – in the inner realms – nobody is likely to take me seriously (even if it was true) because it doesn’t fit the evidence.
We always examine anyone’s claims to see if they are reasonable. That examination is objective.
You tell me if you believe the guy in the video.
Here’s a guy many believed – until one day he just died
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpDufCOAdZE
maybe this tramp is jesus – why would you not believe him?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MONwfJdXW6Y&t=1s
It’s a subjective experience – so why don’t you believe him?
Because of the OBJECTIVE evidence
It clearly points to the likelihood he has mental problems and is deluded
You don’t say “Hey – it’s subjective – so it’s believable”

@Spence
you wrote
Who dare claim they are beyond the potential of error?
Is that your claim Osho?
Let me suggest to any reader here to take a look at the amount of time Osho spends trying to label and squeeze other people’s experience, that no one can ever know, into a box.
my reply:
these are all deflection tactics.
You came out with the theory of Two Gurinders
however you have not clarified if you meet the radiant form in the astral region, after crossing the stars, moon, sun.
I suspect not – but you have not replied. Most likely because the answer is no.
If that is the case – then we have the answer:
the inner guru you claim is not real – you have imagined it
thats why it doesn’t answer

@spence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSwJuOPG4FI
at 54:00 into the video
lawrence says a woman had a clear revelation from god to drown her four children.
Since it was from god – she did it
is this REASONABLE?
you have to ask yourself if your belief / revelation / inner guru answer is reasonable
She is now in a mental institution

I see Appreciative Reader is still writing 10k word treatises about nothing. Look up the word “brevity” my dude and try reducing your asperger’s induced stream of publicly funded academia tier ranting to 100 words or so.
It’s good to see these sant mat guys finally being human and slightly masculine. The manufactured images of piety they present get so sickening. All I care to see at this point is the next guru ascend the gaddi by way of rear naked choke submission of his bloodied and bashed competitors in an UFC octagon.
Bruce Buffer will announce the winner while wearing a turban and carrying an unsheathed talwar. He will also take the loser of the fight’s wife.

Hi Osho
You wrote
“You came out with the theory of Two Gurinders
however you have not clarified if you meet the radiant form in the astral region, after crossing the stars, moon, sun.”
Osho, that is a discussion about spirituality, and inappropriate for Church of the Churchless. Let’s honor Brian’s request.
However I’m most happy to go into all that at Atheist and Believer, where discussions of inner experience are welcome, including both critique as well as support for such experience and discussion.
Brian has made it clear that this is not the place to expand upon the teachings or the experience of the teachings of Sant Mat here.
So if their defense is inappropriate here, so too is their attack, since an open dialogue would of necessity need to allow for both.
But there is a place where both are welcome.
And that is here…
https://atheistnbeliever.blogs.com/atheistnbeliever/
I look forward to continuing this dialogue with you there.

@Spence

Osho, that is a discussion about spirituality, and inappropriate for Church of the Churchless. Let’s honor Brian’s request.

really? are you seriously THAT deluded?
Brian does not want “preaching” – meaning useless claptrap like quoting long scriptures to validate your belief in a god etc.
I am asking you a very simple question. If can answer it – go ahead – I am sure Brian is not going to come over and shoot you – in fact I think he will be quite happy if you answer – ask him if you are in any doubt.
Brian has no issue with discussion of any point – and that is what we are doing – discussing your nothing of “two masters who can disagree with each other”
So please go ahead and answer
I am sure if Brian has an issue – he will say so.

@dungeness
You wrote:
Mysticism is a path of experience, of a “knowing” that transcends time-space and mental arguments. Projecting a scenario about an inner guru telling you to kill simply frames yet another mental construct.
I just gave you an example above of an actual true case of a mother who drowned her three children because “God” told her to. This is an actual incident that matches what I just said. Is it appropriate to believe an inner voice or an inner guru?
you write about “transcending time and space” without understanding the meaning and implications of time/space transcendence.
Once you transcend time / space – there are no “thoughts” because thoughts need time to exist.
Everything you “know” is through the mind and thoughts.
So if you transcend “Time and Space” there is nothing to “Know”
And also “You” don’t remain. It is impossible for “you” to remain because if there is no space then “where” will you exist?
Existence needs space.
The only “thing” that can exist in “no space, no time” is a thing that has certain properties. Those properties are :
It cannot have a “form” because everything that has a form needs space
It cannot move, as movement needs both time and space.
Because it cannot have a form it means it has no “boundary” – that means it has no beginning and no end – which is the same as saying infinite.
Once you state that it is “infinite” then you have to state there cannot be two or more
Because there can only be ONE infinity. It is impossible to have two infinities because
(a) The first one never ends – so how can the second one start?
(b) The meaning of formless is that it cannot possible ever end.
So this “thing” I have just described above only fits exactly into one definition known to man. It is what all his scriptures call God.

Infinite – everywhere – encompasses all time and space.
There is none else beside him – he is the only one.
He is never born and never dies – hence eternal
Has always existed and always will
changeless

Now here are a few of his attributes that the scriptures fail to tell you
(more accurately they may state it – but you miss it)

He does not think
He does not DO anything
He is not LOVE or compassion or any other idea you may have
He cannot see you – let alone judge you
He has zero attributes

So any notions you have of god are just fanciful thinking based on ignorance and your own limited thinking based in time and space.
Love or compassion cannot exist if there is only one.
Who will he love and have compassion for?
Who will he see – there is only him.
Who will he judge – there is nobody to judge and judgement requires a mind
He cannot have any attributes because attributes need time and space
Only things that are finite have attributes.
Scriptures DO in fact hint all this when they say
“anything you say about him will be a lie”
“neti neti” which means neither this nor that. Same as saying he is not a thing and has no attributes.
“aad Sach Jugaad Sach” which means was TRUE in the beginning and will remain TRUE forever . Here TRUE simply means non-changing, always the same.

Jesse:
gaddi by way of rear naked choke submission of his bloodiedcompetitors in an UFC octagon.
……….haha honey we made it brrrring out the rrred panties.we are rich

you write about “transcending time and space” without understanding the meaning and implications of time/space transcendence. Once you transcend time / space – there are no “thoughts”

Exactly. That’s why I quoted “knowing”. It transcends thought. It’s
why the mystics say “neti, neti”. They can only tell stories, offer
metaphors, talk of signposts, detail what;s experienced along
the “way”. Ultimately, it’s ineffability, a state of being.
Again, you’re citing the case of hearing murderous voices inside
as a rationale to shed doubt but then chasing into cul-de-sacs
from which no clarity can emerge, seizing on contradictions,
juggling thoughts to attempt to disprove a path whose aim is to
transcend thought. The wheels just spin endlessly.
Why not just practice a simple mindfulness and see if beneficial.
Swear off any voices you hear. Ignore dogma, or whatever strikes
you as unproven. Then it just becomes a discipline of withdrawing
from that tsunami of confused, scattered thought which is with
us 24×7.
Hey, this is getting preachy. Forgive me, I have sinned. I’m headed
back to AtheistsNBelievers.

Dungeness
Beyond time and space there is no knowing either as there I nothing to know

Dungeness
I assume you are saying you have the knowing beyond time and space
Or you just heard about it?
What have you known?

This whole bloody thing is a farce…all the way down from Jagat Singh…only property and blind followers were left behind in Beas after the great master left…time to face reality…the ever compassionate Kirpal Singh was and is the true successor of the great master Sawan Singh…one who left everything and started from scratch in New Delhi…the Punjab thing is just a cult, a Punjabi cult with mass appeal of hypocritical materialism…shameful that folks don’t wake up even after such glaring proof that the current thing is a sham to trap simple but gullible souls…