Open Thread 13 (free speech for comments)

Brian, how would you like us to deal with gentle thread drift?
Sometimes threads tend to drift somewhat and, Chinese Whispers fashion, end up speaking of things only tangentially related (if that) to your actual post. For instance, in that old thread with Osho Robbins’s account of Sevadar officiousness at Haynes Park, cc/x had (long ago) put in his on-topic comment ; Jen happened to see that comment, and commented on cc’s commenting and quoted cc’s comment ; which in turn set me off generally speaking of old threads and old-time commenters, as well as Osho Robbins’s courage in calling out that uncalled-for officiousness openly and without hiding behind anonymity.
Wholesale derails and hijacks are not done, absolutely ; they rightly belong only in these Open Threads. But these gentle thread drifts, as long as they don’t cascade off into a long-drawn off-topic discussions, are kind of an in-between gray area, aren’t they?
How’d you like us to treat them? Go into an Open Thread with them, or let them be?
(Either is fine I suppose, generally speaking ; it is just a question of your preference. Just wanted to clarify what your preference is on this.)

Brain – I came across a book called Lost Connections by Johann Hari.
Please read it and give me your thoughts. The penny dropped after reading it. I think everyone following RSSB needs to read this book as it is shows that there are people outside RSSB who are doing Seva on a level which RSSB cannot even compare with. And one of them is Reconnecting to Other People. The book is about depression and how we have all been hoodwinked into taking anti depressants -when the answers to our trouble in the vast majority of cases are our situations….and other people.
One of the things I noticed that most RSSB folk are truly depressed and sometimes we need to seek answers outside the group as to why we are going there. Going to Haynes Park certainly made me feel alone. But hey this isnt about me!!!
I waffle on. Please read it and give me your thoughts. All the Best

How to deal with life…
“In battle, in the forest, at the precipice in the mountains,
On the dark great sea, in the midst of javelins and arrows,
In sleep, in confusion, in the depths of shame,
The good deeds a man has done before defend him”
Robert Oppenheimer’s translation of one of the wise sayings (or Satakas) of the sanskrit author Bhartrihari.

No wonder people are depressed – the dark side of life – very haunting and emotional.
We can only do our best.
Robert Oppenheimer: “I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb13ynu3Iac

I posted my recent thoughts on my friend Dr. Ruquist’s Iswhar Puri site. I think it might give a little insight here, and add a little WD-40 to Charan’s Bulldozer Chain . This was advice I offered another Sant Mat Initiate which applies to all Sant Mat Initiates, regardless of the Lineage.
Consider your self a Missionary sent by your Higher Soul Self to balance unpaid Karmas from all of your Higher Soul’s past lives, both bad as well as good karmas. All of those karmas must be paid off to Kal before your Higher Soul Self that contains the DVDs of every past life ever lived since creation! If you create new additional karmas this life, they will be added and archived to your Higher Soul ( Causal Body), and if you are successful in burning more karmas than you create , then you will also burn karmas from your accumulated past lives archived in your Higher Soul Self’s Akashic Record, which are each individual past life that could be compared as a DVD. But if you must reincarnate or transmigrate again, you do NOT pick up one of those DVDs already lived, you only pick up the karmas of ALL of them!!! So, as a Missionary sent back here by your Higher Soul Self to return to the Martial Arts Octagon Ring of physical incarnation to again, challenge Kal to the fight of Death, …….in Pind, than you better well learn how to take that Battle above the Third Eye, Tishra Til where the Spiritual Path BEGINS,….because challenging to fight Kal in Pind will always be a loosing battle for you! Kal is King below the Third Eye! If you loose the Karmic balancing Spiritual Battle this life again, then another DVD of this life will be archived in your Higher Soul Self, i.e. your Causal body, and your physical body will die, but the less dense form of it will survive as your Astral Body, and live there in the Astral Realm, which is the Bardo described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. No karmas are balanced there! Karmas are ONLY balanced in physical HUMAN bodies! You remain in the Astral Plane until you reincarnate back to physical, then, your prior form dies in the Astral and disintegrates. It does not happen immediately, and may still be seen by Astral Travelers. But when seen, it looks like a dead Zombie, and no longer can communicate. Presently, if you learn how to leave your body while in meditation, your Astral Form leaves your physical body and does or can communicate with other Astral forms who are still alive in physical bodies. This “Game of Kal” has been going on in the The Wheel of 84 for Eons, or longer than any one knows, including Masters. Now, you must see how far you have already come to have been chosen by The Father and marked to be initiated in to The Path of The Masters and invited to start the Journey Back to Sach Khand! Please don’t take your Gift lightly! 😇😍
Jim Sutherland

Internet, Robotics and Artificial Intelligence (AI) | Full Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-s3o0tHVZo&t=1924s
2016 American documentary film directed by Werner Herzog. In it, Herzog ponders the existential impact of the Internet, robotics, AI, the Internet of Things, and more on human life.
The film contains interviews with Bob Kahn, Elon Musk, Sebastian Thrun, Ted Nelson, and other leaders of the technology world.

Hi Jim!
Beatifully written Satsang. I enjoyed it immensely.

Hi Arjuna!
Depression can be situational, biochemical or a bit of both. One size doesn’t fit all. Meditation can help here, too, but not much if you are too anxious, fearful and distraught to meditate.
I’ve witnessed what drugs can do and I have to say that in some cases they work miracles and make it possible to function.
I’ve also witnessed the misguided efforts of some parents to take their kids off all medications when, for one reason or another, their biochemistry simply requires them to function. And the prison that this put their kids into all in the name of natural living.
We should all try to live in as healthful and natural a state and situation as possible, but when necessary, use everything modern medical science has to ease human suffering.

@ Spencer – thank for your comments.
I have been depressed in and off all my life but of recent have a great desire to mediate but my mind puts the fear that I will be attajed by dark entities – the mind is scary

Spencer, thanks for your Kudos. Too bad we make every thing so confrontational.
Arjuna, you are not alone. Regardless of how good life can be, during a limited time of Bliss, the rest of the time, we are all depressed, especially if we are are Sadhasoami Initiates. We know too much truth, about the suffering of the world, by all occupents in Chaurasi, i.e. The Wheel of 84. Before I was initiated, I was imune to others suffering, but after 30 years of Meditation and studying the Path, I am no longer cruel, and I feel sadness for all suffering, and loss of life, for even insects!
Wars would cease, if all of humanity became initiated. We would no longer need Sach Khand. We would have it on earth. But imagine Combat Soldiers ever being able to loose their depression after neing in combat and not only witnessing killing, but doing it?
In the U.S. Military, more Combat Soldiers are committing suicide than those being killed in Battle. There are Religeous Chaplins attending to the Military. Too bad there aren’t Radhasoami Guru Chaplains going in to battle giving Sat Sang to the soldiers!
JIm Sutherland

Hi Arjuna
Within you is the answer. But if biochemistry is in the way, environment is disruptive, then start with what will put you at ease and give you the most control and peace of mind. That is also part of the journey, part of the path towards the doorway.
If you have fear, then get help to overcome it. If your own thoughts frighten you, professional help can go a long way to helping you build that atmosphere where you can explore and discover treasures within.
Inside us is a great battle and a mighty victory. But we are not alone. Inside us also is our best Friend.
You mentioned going to Haynes Park.
I find the physical presence of the Master wipes out any fears I have. But your mileage may vary.
Some people just can’t tolerate crowds of people who are just as flawed as they are. If I find it difficult living with me, I certainly will not be able to tolerate the flaws of many others, written in their mene, pronounced in their comments.
So your Satsang might just be a wonderful park bench on a quiet grey afternoon.
I was in the airport today, busy with business travelers, children and parents, college students. In a flash, in an instant, just looking at the planes taxiing; the beams of mid-afternoon sunlight shining through clouds upon the runways and baggage trucks; amidst the overhead announcements for this city and that country ; I realized that this was a miracle, this incredible moment of time, rich with pure energy and movement, and stillness all at once. I was in a world of magic taking place all around me. No longer a part of it, an observer, and yet more a part than anyone else could understand. Time slowed. And then the Master was there.
It can’t be explained. It can’t be seen by anyone else. But that is also what makes it sacred, what makes each of us sacred. That everyone is fully engaged in their own dream, and in a moment I saw it, and I wasn’t afraid, or repulsed, I had nowhere to be, no deadlines or expectations, completely free in that moment, and instead of fear felt pure compassion, and thankfulness for this magic, because those drops of soul all around me, even the carpet and the trucks outside, and the attendant announcing the flight delay while another announced boarding, all part of One consciousness, and that consciousness Love itself.
Wherever you find that, you have entered Shangri La.
Then you have your Statsang and your Sangat, all humanity.
Your Master won’t be far behind.

Too bad there aruru Chaplains going in to battle giving Sat Sang to the soldiers!
Ishwar Puri relates an interesting incident about three of Faqir Chand’s
disciples in WW2. Surrounded by the enemy and fearing imminent
death, they held a mini-satsang. Suddenly Faqir Chand appeared
beside them and directed them to an escape route.
After escaping, they thanked Faquir Chand who was also a soldier.
He responded that he knew nothing of their rescue or his miraculous
intervention and confided he was shaking with fear himself because
of the bombing. He went on to clarify we project the power within us
and externalize it. At no time are we separate from the master within.

John 1:11
He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
As Jesus had attained Samadhi / Trance in shabd , he knew that same energy is vibrating within everyone but people due to carnal desires don’t pay attention to Primal energy / Shabd / Atomic energy. Atomic energy was manifested by scientists who led Saintly life & world war 2 was won by use of Atomic energy / Shabd’s Energy. Scientists became the children of God & atomic energy was manifested through their works.

1984 anyone?
https://www.newparadigm.ws/my-blogs/6-examples-of-modern-day-orwellian-1984-doublespeak/
………………….
Justin Trudeau replaced “mankind” with “peoplekind”.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/trudeau-s-india-trip-is-a-total-disaster-and-he-has-himself-to-blame-20180224-p4z1ka.html
How did Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, the world’s favorite liberal mascot – a feminist man, with movie-star good looks, a 50 percent female cabinet and a political lexicon that has replaced “mankind” with “peoplekind” (making millions swoon) – end up looking silly, diminished and desperate on his trip to India this week?
…
Trudeau’s India trip from the outset was playing to a diaspora gallery back home, one in which he has been studiously ambiguous on the Khalistani ties of some of his Liberal Party’s Sikh Canadian supporters,” Vivek Dehejia, a professor at Carleton University in Ottawa told me. “But for those who are lukewarm on Trudeau, this will reconfirm their impression that the rock star image hides feet of clay, and that he has been undone by his own cleverness in trying to massage the diaspora vote back home yet appear statesman-like here in India. That facade has crumbled.

High Dungeness
Can you provide a link or source for the Iswar Puri story you shared above?
Thanks

Can you provide a link or source for the Iswar Puri story you shared above?
Hi Spence,
It was one of his U-tube talks. Very memorable but of course
became elusive when I started looking for it 🙂
He’s repeated the story more than once as I recall. I’ll keep
searching…

It was one of his U-tube talks…
I emailed Ishwar’s org in case they know.

I emailed Ishwar’s org in case they know
Meanwhile, here’s the basis of the story from Faqir Chand’s autobiography:
https://sites.google.com/site/babafaqirchandsliterature/autobiography-of-baba-faqit-chand
P.S.
Search for “Iraq” on that page. That’s where the incident occurred.
post WW1. (not WW2 as I reported).

I liked it – nice :
“””” But I could not read and digest it anymore, because Swami Ji Maharaj had most vehemently criticized almost all the religions including vendant, Sufism, Islam, Jainism and Buddhism. He declared them all in Kal and Maya. It was too much for me. “””
777
Pity the Faqir didn’t understand about the GIHF phenomenon

“Pity the Faqir didn’t understand about the GIHF phenomenon”
Hahahahaha!! Thanks for the jollys and japes. Just checking out the posts here now first time in a while, and immediately faced by such delusional nonsense!
“The Faqir” understood more about the “GIHF phenomenon” than any other poster here, on RSS forum, in any satsang, and indeed, more than most if not ALL of the so-called “GIHFs”, including most, most certainly Charan & Gurinder.
And that is (or should be, assuming some form of sentience in the reader 🙂 staggeringly obvious judging by their own comments in context of “The Faqir’s” message. “The Faqir” has prempted everything they have ever said or done, but it takes some sense of objectivity and intelligence to understand that.
Simply stating the opposite (fake news)does not make it true; Your comment is absolutely baseless – but priceless, so thanks!

Hi Dungeness!
Yes, I’ve read this among Faqir’s own disciples and followers. But I’ve never heard Ishwar refer to Faqir, nor to Charan Singh, for that matter, among his UTube and Audio talks.
But I haven’t heard all of them, probably a third so far.
If you find it please let me know, and I’ll continue enjoying his talks. If I come by it, I’ll also let you know which one for future reference.
Ishwar has been uniquely distant from other schools, and I’ve always honored that, referring exclusively to his own Master, the Great Master, in the stories I’ve heard so far.

When David Lane has documented ” Chandian Effect ” / Guru doesn’t go anywhere phenomenon , there is no point in looking elsewhere.

Hi Vinny!
The point is that Ishwar’s perspective has been a little different. He does not hold to Lane’s view that it’s all just illusory.
nor does Faqir’s perspective, though accurate to some degree, fully encompass the teachings of the Master, nor my own experiences of the Path.
Rather Ishwar acknowledges the intimate connection between the disciple and the Master, both inside and outside, at least as I’ve read. And he acknowledges our past and future lives, not as imaginary, but as real records that can be viewed.
My own experience is that the inner and outer Master are highly connected. Basically the same. Though Master in the body is limited to the functioning of the physical body and brain. But connected to the Spirit, He can rise above as needed, and return to those limitations, depending on what is required.
In Spirit, in the realms above thought, there is no more discrimination.
To function here, you need a brain that deals with sensory input, decisions, memory and history.
But to be a Master is a different state altogether. No true Master would be afraid of losing the body in war time, because they leave it and pick it up again as they like.
Faqir was discussing his own perspective, but he cannot, nor can Lane, speak for True realized Sat Guru.
Short course, the realms of mind all deal with projection. But they are connected subtly to Shabd and are created from Shabd, just like this whole creation.
The realms beyond mind in Spirit are hard physical reality. Witnessing the gas clouds of the edges of the Milky way, or earth from Space is a hard, repeatable and verifiable experience, because that is a different witness of this particular realm.
And this is the pathway the true Saints provide, to Reality through direct exposure to that reality, not the biochemical flawed filters of this body of sensation and brain which can only construct a picture of reality and always stands as a barrier between us and reality. But to see that reality unfiltered, we are going way beyond thought. To take all that in at once is contrary to how our physical brain functions. But the true disciples at some point get that every day.
So there is the inner Master you see as you meditate, you focus on, the image created by your mind from your exposure to the Master. This helps you control your thoughts, simply by placing your thoughts upon someone you love. It is very natural and quite wonderful.
Then there is the Astral projection, still within that range of mind. It is the Shabd form on the lower, Astral plane.
And then the regions above mind, and the true radiant form of the Master, which has nothing at all to do with Mind. That’s third region and above, to use the common vernacular.
That form and the physical Master are one and the same, in essence.
The physical body and brain for the Master are nothing more than the suit of clothes they wear here. Could be a nice new suit, could be older and worn, both body and brain. Their actual conscious existence is beyond that. And they are trying to help each of us understand the same is true for all of us. How to get there, that is the Path. And our connection to reality, true reality is within every one of us.

I’m going to share another experience I personally witnessed, take it within your own limitations of experience, but at least as a reference point from one who is a satsangi.
Several years ago I did something shameful. And at some point I was too ashamed to even leave the hotel room I was staying in, in order to go and give a presentation to a team of Health System administrators.
I spent the day in Meditation, asking nothing but forgiveness. It wasn’t a great day for me. No inner experiences, just the memories of what I’d done, the feelings of trauma, grief and loss. But I stuck with it as best I could. Who else did I have to turn to ? No one else.
The next day my assistant called. As I saw their call on the phone, I realized I was going to have to apologize to everyone. I wasn’t sure how the other executives would feel about it, or if I would even still have a job.
I picked up the phone and as I began to ask if she could please offer my apologies, she said she was calling to schedule a second, follow up, presentation. The Administrators called her earlier to say they had loved the presentation and wanted me to return to speak with more of their managers.
Since I wasn’t there I can’t explain what happened. When I did go back they all had their project folders with notes from the “presentation” I never gave.
That doesn’t need to happen more than once to alter one’s life completely.

FAQIR received the following from his guru , He considered as GIHForm:
“””” O! Faqir Blissful!
I am not a devotee of Rama, Krishana;
Know not Brahm nor God!
I have the craze for Faqir’s name;
I accept it alone as Supreme!
His Holiness wrote this for me simply to lift me up from my passive thoughts, because I used to consider myself as the greatest sinner. In another poem he assigned me threefold duty as:
Thou hast come in human form;
Wearing the garb of a Faqir,
Take with the miserable men;
And lead them to the Guru’s Abode,
Man, weak, helpless and ignorant;
Is grieved by the treble-torture,
Thy duty is to be compassionate;
Impart people the True-Name,
O! Thou generous one.
etc etc “”””” etc
I remember to have read that KABIR bowed before one of his disciples
and said : ” You are my Master ”
I believe there is also a ‘strange’ occurrence with Tulsi Sahib vs SwamiJi Seth Shiv Dayal”
even John the Baptist vs Jesus
All this confirms that God does what He wants and what pleases Him”
What I always had against the Faqir is that he accused our RSSB Masters of cheating.
It is no cheating when God tells you NOT to tell the unexplainable Truth
Also Swami Ram Das from Kerala ( Charan said 3rd region) appeared like that ; . . gave a whole train of hundreds all candy out of a little paper sac )
I applaud Gurinder saying there is just One big Pool of GOD which is ONE )
and does he not like Guru Nanak says every day that He is the lowliest of the Lowly
Yes , . . He feels like that
So, . . . now everything is clear . . . IT IS THE SWEET SOUND IN EVERY 7 CHAKRAS ENTITY
and everybody of some compassion can hear
Eves apple was a STEAK which ended that holy contact
RSSB SatGurus can give us some “speed it up”
They are and were all different
In a practitioner, They are that Sound, . . and that Light
They tear us through the eye of the needle while realizing themselves
to be a complete Zero ( HAVE THEY TO PUBLICIZE THAT ON YOUTUBE ? )
Faqir’s mistake is that he found it a necessity to tell the incomprehensible, shout it around.
It’s a kind of : be more Rome than the Pope syndrome, so close to hypocrisy
The Truth is often relative, always in the middle
So many “Truths” did untold harm
Go inside and it’s all simple and gorgeous ! ! !
777

Hi Spence,
I’d like to address your comments about Faqir Chand as I feel you’ve done a grievous disservice in representing both his life & his teachings. I suspect this is due to your filtering of his life & teachings through the filters of your dogmatic and unexamined belief-set, but you would probably disagree. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reminisce a bit.
I first read Chand via Lane’s fantabulous “Neural Surfer” website back around 1997ish. I was an absolutely besotted & dewy-eyed follower (not initiated, too young) of Gurinder (24 hour obsession). Absolutely consumed by the fire of love & devotion towards the person of Gurinder. Reading Chand….and truly trying to understand him without judging & filtering him through my preconceived notions and beliefs (which, btw, was 100% certainty of the “truth” of the RSSB doctrine), which I think is the true distinguishing feature between genuine “seekers” and mere “followers”……absolutely shook my world and understanding of reality. So momentous was reading Chand, that it took a few years to fully integrate the stunning implications (on all levels, from mundane to “spiritual”), and I ending up leaving my association with RSSB.
So, that’s me. Now to address your gross misrepresentation of the true depth and profundity of Chand’s message, especially in context of your clear inference that it is the RSSB teachings that “encompass” Chand’s and not vice versa. There is just too much irony there for me not to comment 🙂
Firstly, your comments about being in the realm of mind, beyond mind, astral, “3rd region”, what a “Master” is etc etc. I think I can disregard all that. Personally, I’m entirely familiar with all such concepts, and I’m certain Chand was too. I find it all rather vacuous, myself. But it all sounds lovely, I have no problem with such concepts (even if it is incongruous you believe these concepts exist in realms where “there is no more discrimination”!), intellectual pursuits are all well and good.
You write “But to be a Master is a different state altogether. No true Master would be afraid of losing the body in war time”
I’m sorry Spence, but you are taking one of Chand’s many breath-takingly honest first-person narratives (about possibly getting seriously hurt during war) from what was probably years before he even became a master, and before his “realisation” as he himself has explicitly stated in the chronology of his life! It is as intellectually dishonest as stating Sawan couldn’t of been a “Perfect Master” because he discusses his problems with lust in his letters to Jaimal Singh (say what you like about Sawan, but he wasn’t known for his smuttiness during satsangs, whatever issues he may have had with lust prior! Gurinder he ain’t :).
But wait, here’s the thing I don’t think everyone realises about Chand, his true and unique greatness amongst all RS Gurus, and it is, I believe, entirely undeniable; Chand’s first-person narrative of the sound and light journey, sach khand and above, and being a Guru!! Not a SINGLE other guru, in the history of RS, has done this! It is utterly astonishing, and we have been truly blessed and graced one of them, at least, had the honesty to do so! I have read countless books, biographies etc of these so called “Masters” of RS. If you disagree with what I state here, you do not understand it. There simply is no other RS guru who comes close in describing the minutiae of becoming and being an RS “Satguru”. The rest is just bland platitudes and dogma you could teach a parrot to repeat (stick ’em on youtube, create a cult following etc :). Nothing which comes even remotely close to explaining how the “Satguru” is sure of the “truth” of their path; when it gets to that stage, beyond the mundane stories of their discipleship to their own guru or whatever, they revert to dogma from previous “Saints” and parroted cosmology and theology from books such as the highly questionable in authorship, quality and sanity, Anurag Sagar.
Chand didn’t sell us a comsology, he just shared his experience. Wow! utterly astonishing and beautiful! And, at the end of it, he says “I don’t know, maybe I am mistaken”!!
It takes a different sort of perspective to the egotistical-mythical to realise the true greatness of Chand, and why he was the real “Satguru” of the whole phenomena….and simultaneously utterly mundane, just like the rest of us.
Spence – in your subsequent post you relate an experience, to be “taken within your own limitations of experience”, in seeming support of your argument against Chand. Again, I suggest you have grossly misunderstood the true depth of Chand’s revelation.
To be blunt, your experience as related above is precisely a rather unremarkable example of the type of experiences disciples project upon the “Satguru”. There is absolutely nothing, at all, in your story that connects, even remotely, your experience with the physical person of Gurinder, other than your own mental beliefs & projections.
Going back to Chand, as a “Satguru” (not a self-professed frightened soldier, albeit transparently actually a very brave one….genuine humility can be lost on those seduced by the faux humility of billionaires sat on gaddhis of vast empires whilst proclaiming it is my own guru doing everything :), he recounts the story of some of his followers who were going to be killed during the partition of India by Pathans (I believe, I have not read any Chand for what must be 13+ years, memory fades as you age!). They were, apparently, miraculously saved by the luminous and visible presence of Chand’s form, and the Pathans left. Numerous people witnessed this form. They wrote to their Satguru thanking him for his help. Chand said he had no idea what was happening there!! I think both Chand’s perspective and miracle story trumps yours here, no Spence? Or do the “limitations of” Chand’s “experience” not quite “encompass” your own? 🙂
What Chand is doing, imo, is revealing the mechanics of the phenomena, and by implication gurus, consciousness, miracles, reality, “realisation” etc. The rest stay mute, or behind cliched & ambiguous phrases like “it is all my guru’s work”, but with an implied wink. I know all the rationalisations to cover this up, I’ve pondered over them myself many, many times, for years and as a “believer” (years ago!). But they explain nothing and are vacuous. To understand Chand is to understand he explains everything (that is repressed or ignored by “followers”). It can help to have some experience of being this person who is projected upon, to fully understand this…..that’s what happened to Chand, and according to his own words it was fundamental in helping him achieve his important “realisation”. I won’t bother in this domain of hyper-egotism to describe my own personal experiences in this regard, but I will say consciousness and reality are far, far more mysterious than the simple narrative of RS cosmology can even begin to approach…..
One, traditional RS teachings, is trapping you in a set of limiting dogmatic beliefs & simplistic, dualistic narratives; the other, Chand, is revealing the very mechanics of your own consciousness, the root of all that is occurring here. I suggest one of these is vacuous fluff that can be repeated by any trained parrot, the other, essential. Let the limitations of your own experience dictate!!
Cheers,
Manjit

I will never have a doubt that when Charan Singh appeared to me, inside while in deep meditation, it was his Astral Body. He spoke to me and touched me, and it had nothing to do with my brain.
I really doubt Charan will ever reincarnate back here again, and the fact that he spoke to me from the Astral Realm indicates he has not permately moved to the Causal Realm yet, and will keep operating from the Astral Realm until the physical death of his last Initiate.
When that last Initite passes, then, Charan’s soul will vacate his Astral body, which will slowly disintigate as he transitions to the Causal Realm to then operate and guide his Initiates from the Astral Realm to the Causal Realm.
After his very last Initiate transitions to the Causal Realm, Charan will operate from Sach Khand guiding his Initiates to Sach Khand. When his very last Initiate transitions from the Causal Realm to Sach Khand, then he and all of us will journey to Anami Purish and remain there as ONE.
So, it is in the best interest of every Charan Singh Initiate to encourge each other to keep moving forward so that the BIG BELL is rung, and we all win our Prize. We Beliecers need to help pull Charan’s Bulldzer Chain tomkee pressure on the slackers.
Just because Faquir Chand was unaware of his Astral body traveling to his desciples in need, does not prove he didn’t , no matter what Lane says.
Also, Astral bodies are spirits , with out physicsl bodies, not Gods. I see them almost every night in dreams , as well as while in meditation when my soul slips down from the Third Eye level to the Throat Chakra where the lower Astral,realm exsts. Not a real big deal after experiencing It for Decades.
Ishwar Puri explains it all clearer than any one I have ever heard exlain it. That doesn’t make him God. It makes him a long time meditator who has experienced what he explains. But that doesn’t mean he stays in Sach Khand full time.
Jim Sutherland

Ah, as is always the case, I forgot to mention whole chunks of information which are relevant. I feel I have to note them down briefly at least as they are exceptions to what I claimed above….
When I say Chand was the only honest guru, this is of course within a highly specific context that I state above; first person narrative & complete honesty about all the important parts of becoming and being a “Satguru” and all that implies.
However, there are of course some exceptions to some degree. Most notable are the exceptions of Sawan and Charan, imo. The thing is, I don’t think these exceptions, profoundly revealing with many implications as they are, have really been understood by most satsangis?
Sawan, when initially chosen as the successor to Jaimal, and the new “Satguru” of Beas, expressed deep & genuine doubts & concerns about his ability to be “Satguru”. Even from within the bubble of only reading official RSSB literature (pre internet days, for me anyway!), it was clear Sawan did not believe he was the “Satguru” as he believed it was defined in his mind. This troubled me deeply, even at that time when I knew nothing much & wasn’t concerned in the slightest about other rival RS gurus and the such. Over at the RSS forum, it has been said many times Sawan requested help from someone in the Agra line of “Satgurus” to help with initiating new followers, and that it was they at Agra that persuaded him (Sawan) to initiate. I am quite certain I read this in the official RSSB literature myself as a kid, which was part of what troubled me (memory fades, can’t quite recall the details, just that Sawan was clearly confused by his appointment and didn’t initiate for a long while!) . What troubled me was the whole idea Sawan didn’t know he was the Satguru. It is clear, with a little understanding of human psychology, that Sawan became entrained into accepting himself into the position, as influenced by events around him. I understood this, albeit dimly, even as a relative child and complete believer in RSSB doctrine.
The second, even more revealing instance of honesty, is Charan’s. He was like Sawan Squared. He even tried to run away! His acceptance speech is profoundly revealing, but taken as “humility”. Perhaps it was simply a moment of honesty? His publishing of “Legacy of Love” and that other blue book that was like a biography of his was, insisting upon publishing those books, that contain all these breath-taking moments of honesty, before he passed away, were Charan’s Chandian moment imo! They contain many profound and honest insights. I just question to what degree his initiates truly understood them?
I believe this is Charan’s most honest, and most important, statement, imo:
“”I feel that I am like a stone idol in a temple. According to their notions of love, some bathe it with cold water, some with hot water, and some deck it in fine clothes, but it is still an idol all the same.”
Charan Singh’s acceptance speech.
Humility, or simply the truth? I say both.

Astral world is thoughts of any man , causal world is desires preceding thoughts , freezing of mind leads to stopping of thoughts and desires , after freezing of mind due to strength of Soul / Etheric consciousness only Shabd / Sound is heard. Above Shabd / Sound light is perceived due to increased frequency of vibration of Unified field / Atomic energy. Its all physics. The miracles of Faqir Chand appearing to devotees , when they were told to Faqir Chand , he simply said , pure mind has the power to manifest forms. For illiterate people , explosion of atom bomb & wireless mobile / internet are also miracles. Wake up guys , don’t become victims of mental slavery Sant-mat, real Sant mat is Physics & Unified field. For inspiration you can love any Saint , its only inspiration. Nothing wrong in inspiration but its not truth. I still take inspiration from all the Sant-mat Saints , its only inspiration. Truth is very different. Many times people hear the ringing of mobile phones when no call is coming , its their blind love for relatives / world which creates
this phenomenon.

Hi Manjit:
I very much appreciate your admiration for Faqir Chand and I think you have misunderstood my comments.
Let me explain. I have no comment about Faqir Chand, as I don’t know him. I am only referring to the reference that Dungeness made indicating…
1. Ishwar Puri had mentioned him in this narrative, whereas I have listened to Puri but never heard Puri mention any Master besides his own. So I asked for some location to hear for myself. I admire Ishwar Puri greatly and would be interested to hear exactly how he describes this incident during the war.
2. That during world war II Faqir Chand’s disciples made this claim…they were his disciples at that time.
From Dungeness’ post above:
“Ishwar Puri relates an interesting incident about three of Faqir Chand’s
disciples in WW2. Surrounded by the enemy and fearing imminent
death, they held a mini-satsang. Suddenly Faqir Chand appeared
beside them and directed them to an escape route.”
You wrote:
“I’m sorry Spence, but you are taking one of Chand’s many breath-takingly honest first-person narratives (about possibly getting seriously hurt during war) from what was probably years before he even became a master, and before his “realisation” as he himself has explicitly stated in the chronology of his life! ”
This would make perfect sense, Manjit, and would be entirely normal for anyone, Master or otherwise, before they had reached that state. If what you write is true. But your hypothesis is false.
Chand was born in 1889, and was in his fifties during WWII. And as you can see his disciples held a mini satsang in his honor.
It’s simple, he was never at that stage internally. So while it is entirely appropriate for him to reflect upon his own experience candidly, as we all should do, and that is admirable, it is equally deplorable to make claims about anone else’s experience. That’s wrong. However, I don’t know if Chand did this. I haven’t read his works, so I do not wish to make any judgement about that. I only say that we should not judge the height of a building from where we stand on the ground.
A true Sat Guru is something a little different, Manjit. But each person’s experience is also a little different.
That doesn’t make it wrong.
It’s not my job to prove miracles happen (in a sense, because there is no such thing as “supernatural” …all events are “natural” some more astounding than others, but our ability to be awestruck, humbled and thankful is part of what makes an event a true miracle).
However it is wrong for anyone to presume what is going on in someone else’s head, or to circumscribe anyone else’s experience in one’s own limited mental prison of limited ideas and notions.
Some people do have hallucinations.
Some people do have false dogmas.
That’s when the mind works outside it’s limited range of activity.
And some people do witness God, and true Reality. Generally outside of the above limitations.

Oh dear Spencer! It’s a shame, albeit entirely predictable, that you have completely missed all the intricacies and implications in my post, yet somehow decided to double down on your misunderstanding of one singular issue, presumably because you sense your facade most fragile at that juncture 🙂
Let’s see if I can make this clearer? (as it is clear you have no real comprehension or understanding or knowledge about the life and teachings of Faqir Chand, and utterly astonishing that despite this you know he was not a “True Satguru” or “at the same stage” like Gurinder Singh the semi-billionaire who discusses engaging sexual positions during satsang! And quite hilarious too, honestly 🙂 🙂 Yes, indeed, they ARE “something a little different”, entirely agreed!)
You wrote:
“No true Master would be afraid of losing the body in war time, “.
You are clearly referring, admittedly I think, to Chand.
However, in this entire thread the only time anything remotely referencing Chand showing some concern of “losing the body” was in this link posted by Dungeness:
https://sites.google.com/site/babafaqirchandsliterature/autobiography-of-baba-faqit-chand
In which Chand states “I too was shaken with the fear of death.”. This was in 1919 (WW2? Really? You care to defend your bruised ego rather than admit you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about?! Wow, brother.).
The 2nd story you now relate, about his 3 disciples……why would Chand be afraid of death then, he was miles away in safety? Hehe, really Spencer, the ego can really blind you to reality, can’t it? 🙂 THIS is the story I relate about how his disciples and allegedly murderous pathans saw Chand PROTECTING them in his “radiant” form…..not physically cowering in fear of death, he wasn’t even there!!!
Never mind all the other points I made, too.
You double-down on absurdity and falsehood, and project blame onto me. Sounds about right. This was my favourite gem from all your comments, absolutely priceless, and completely transparent imo 🙂
Spence: “It’s simple, he was never at that stage internally.”
Hahaha. Cheers for that!
Cheerio,
Manjit

Hi Manjit:
You tried to weedle out of your error by claiming that the story Dungeness referred to was only the vision the soldiers had in WWII, but Faqir’s admission of fear was in 1918.
Sorry, you are wrong.
Here it is once again what Dungeness posted. Please read carefully, and then scroll up to confirm for yourself.
Dungeness wrote:
“Ishwar Puri relates an interesting incident about three of Faqir Chand’s
disciples in WW2. Surrounded by the enemy and fearing imminent
death, they held a mini-satsang. Suddenly Faqir Chand appeared
beside them and directed them to an escape route.
After escaping, they thanked Faquir Chand who was also a soldier.
He responded that he knew nothing of their rescue or his miraculous
intervention and confided he was shaking with fear himself because
of the bombing.”
You see, this is WWII where Faqir says he was afraid, according to Dungeness’ story.
And basically I only asked to hear Ishwar’s telling of it.
Now, the actual story is probably different, maybe exactly as you write.
And if that is so Faqir wasn’t afraid, which would be appropriate to a realized Master.
My comment was only based on what Dungeness wrote.
But since clearly you haven’t had a good day, proceed to invent and project your own errors upon yours truly.
If Faqir’s disciples could wrongly project, so can you. Seems to be a thing with his folks…..
(not: truly, this is found in every corner of the world:)

“clearly haven’t had a good day”?
Hehe.
“weedle out of your error”? “Please read carefully, and then scroll up to confirm for yourself.”?
I did:
Dungeness: “P.S. Search for “Iraq” on that page. That’s where the incident occurred.
post WW1. (not WW2 as I reported).” @ 9.21pm
“If Faqir’s disciples could wrongly project, so can you. Seems to be a thing with his folks…..”?
Ah…never mind. I’ll leave it to the infamous sagacity of the reader…..
G’nite brother :o)

And this is the problem, Spence.
That despite a barrage of evidence that people such as Charan and Gurinder are not “Satgurus” as defined by RS dogma, you believe them to be so. Yet, on the basis of one misremembered and misunderstood and mis-dated anecdote (albeit corrected later with a link to the full article, which you clearly didn’t bother with, so certain are you of your misunderstandings!). You then proceed to write several further posts arguing the point & defending your ego with someone who has told you he has studied and pondered over his writings for years! That really does take some ego, my friend!
It is all very well your trite comments like “However it is wrong for anyone to presume what is going on in someone else’s head, or to circumscribe anyone else’s experience in one’s own limited mental prison of limited ideas and notions.” or we shouldn’t judge another’s experience, or ” I only say that we should not judge the height of a building from where we stand on the ground.” etc etc. All very lovely sounding, but profoundly hollow.
And that is made transparent when you then go on to proclaim things like “It’s simple, he was never at that stage internally.” or that “real Masters are something a little different”.
I mean, YOU are judging a renowned master considered a “Satguru” by many (and not just in RS circles, btw) who meditated for about 75 odd years for probably about 3-15 hours a day….based on what? A post you’ve misread on a blog? My friend, if you sense any criticism of RSSB and it’s guru’s from me, you can bet your life it’s based on something far more substantial……FAR more substantial knowledge, experience, understanding & personal devotion to them, than judging them based on my poor reading of a blog post.
Where the dogmatic beliefs & religious mindset lies should be clear.

It ALL comes back to Gurinders statement :
Not a perfect One
but
a complete One
All SatGurus have said that
See the Prayer of Set Shiv Dayal on the last page of Lekh Puri’s book
“Radha Soami Teachings
Lekh is Ishwar’s father
–
Seth sais on that page what Guru Nanak said all the time: ” The lowliest of the lowly”
Charan said
How can we feel proud when we see/hear/realize the enormous
giant beauty of The Creator
I have in my comments here testified and swore about such appearance of my SATGURU many times!
777

Hi Manjit:
Wow Manjit, Your capacity to avoid a simple fact actually undermines everything else you wrote:
Dungeness posted this:
Dungeness wrote:
“Ishwar Puri relates an interesting incident about three of Faqir Chand’s
disciples in WW2. Surrounded by the enemy and fearing imminent
death, they held a mini-satsang. Suddenly Faqir Chand appeared
beside them and directed them to an escape route.
After escaping, they thanked Faquir Chand who was also a soldier.
He responded that he knew nothing of their rescue or his miraculous
intervention and confided he was shaking with fear himself because
of the bombing.”
Faqir was shaking with fear, in WW2, in his fifties, after having initiated several souls. According to Dungeness’ telling.
Sorry, Manjit. Take up your complaint with Dungeness.
I’m just the messenger here.

Hi Manjit:
You wrote:
“I mean, YOU are judging a renowned master considered a “Satguru” by many..”
No, I’m not. please try to read what I actually wrote.
Here, let me re-paste it for you.
“And basically I only asked to hear Ishwar’s telling of it.
Now, the actual story is probably different, maybe exactly as you write.
And if that is so Faqir wasn’t afraid, which would be appropriate to a realized Master.
My comment was only based on what Dungeness wrote.”
Manjit, read the above again please. The problem is that you failed to see that I was only commenting on Dungeness’ story, not actually on Faqir, since as I have already stated twice, I don’t know him. And I’m most welcome to change that based on any actual facts. That’s why I would like to hear Ishwar’s telling.
As I wrote earlier, I don’t know anything about Faqir. But you have ignored all that and presumed I have some idea about him. I only am commenting on the picture presented in Dungeness’ telling. I have no idea if that information is incorrect. You are suggesting Dungeness’ telling is in error.
That’s a conversation with Dungeness. I’ll withold judgement until you two get your stories straight.
Meanwhile, you got the story wrong, according to Dungeness’ version.

Wow Spence, I didn’t think you could do it, but you’ve now managed to quadruple-down on what I have demonstrated is a clear error on your part several times! I don’t think there is even a label for the next “down”, I’ll think I’ll just label it “lost it”!
You write “Faqir was shaking with fear, in WW2, in his fifties, after having initiated several souls. According to Dungeness’ telling.”
However, before any of my posts today, Dungeness had already clarified this error and posted a link to the original article, which I have also done. So, again, verrry slowly:
Dungeness: “P.S. Search for “Iraq” on that page. That’s where the incident occurred.
post WW1. (not WW2 as I reported).” @ 9.21pm
https://sites.google.com/site/babafaqirchandsliterature/autobiography-of-baba-faqit-chand
The facts are clear here Spence, this was NOT WW2 but actually 1919, Chand was NOT a “Satguru” and he had NOT attained his final “realisation” as according to his own chronology of experiences.
Yet you remain arguing, projecting? I am truly astonished at the human propensity for self-deceit when it comes to matters of religious belief. You appear to be arguing with me for not accepting your incorrect narrative of events, that I should engage with your error just because you believe your error to be true based purely on your not reading all of Dungeness’s comments before you & I both posted today?
Does that not seem a little silly to you?
If you re-read my initial post to you today, you will notice all your subsequent posts have merely reinforced the truth of it. All you had to do was check your facts, then admit your error. But you didn’t. You couldn’t.
“I’m just a messenger here”?
Really Spence, this is just embarrassing. I have repeated YOUR, not Dungeness’s, ignorant and factually incorrect comments numerous times. And now you’re just a messenger? It’s Dungeness’s fault that because they mis-wrote WW2 and you didn’t bother to check it or notice their correction (or my re-post of it), that you repeatedly judged and devalued Chand’s status as a “True Master”? What exactly in my original post is incorrect, given Dungeness’s correction of the date?
Really Spence, have a word with yourself, all this self-deceit can’t be good for you.

Hi Manjit
I see the correction later. But you are still unable to admit the fact that the original error painted the picture of a Faqir telling his own disciples he was afraid. This is what my statement was based upon. Yes of course that picture was wrong according to Dungeness later correction. . But I didn’t paint it. I reflected upon it. The reflection was in error based upon the erroneous picture.
I made clear I do not know Faqir. And I stated that the true picture is probably much different. I do not know Faqir and only based my comment on Dungeness original post.

So I still would like to hear Ishwar’s take on this event, and even any mention at all about Faqir.
If one part of he story was wrong? What about the rest?
Did Ishwar ever mention anything like this about Faqir?

And now for something different …. (smiley face)
Are we individuated units of consciousness in an avatar form living in a Virtual Reality?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqVZv1YBxQE&t=336s
Tom Campbell: Our Virtual Reality vs Video Game Virtual Reality (12:36)
Published on Apr 5, 2018
In the video game as soon as the avatar looks away then its just gone, when he looks back there, you recompute it because its just that easy.
Very similar to the way our reality works as well. Our virtual reality only sends data to a player who needs it. If you don’t need that data then it does not get sent to you.
Its not that things disappear because you don’t look at them, they were never there in the first place.
……
I’m thinking that if we are religious and have beliefs in a guru or spiritual path or travelling in inner regions etc, we have visions and experiences because its what we want and that data is sent to us, but is it real?

I’ve read the link you provided, Manjit, to Faqir’s autobiography. The story is very revealing. It appears that only very late in life did he achieve what he had originally sought, in his own definition. He carried anxiety, of one form or another, all his life.
He tells us about all his achievements spiritually, his errors, his efforts, his successes, all the praise his own guru lauded upon him, undeserved, saying he would get there in time, even while exhorting him to place himself in the role of a realised master. And then his hunger, his passion for that elusive goal.
But it seems he never learned the secret that God is not something you achieve. God is Love.
God loves us, not the other way around. In that pure love all questions are answered. We do not travel the creation on our achievements. We rise in the lap of our Father, Christ. And that Love is infinite.
It can’t be explained. Only experienced.

So I still would like to hear Ishwar’s take on this event, and even any mention at all about Faqir.
If one part of he story was wrong? What about the rest?
Did Ishwar ever mention anything like this about Faqir?
Whew, sidestepping a few bits of flying shrapnel, I found Ishwar’s
mention of Faqir Chand in the transcripts:
http://ishanews.org/ishalibrary/english/
# 40 Devotion is the Response to Love
# 81 Illusion or Reality
Ishwar relates he knew Faqir Chand personally. Perhaps he mis-heard
Faqir say WW2. Or, was it all planned to generate a kerfuffle 🙂
That makes me wonder if even advanced mystics feign emotion for
some deliberate effect. I can only guess that might be part of the
reason. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be relatable as human. What if
Faqir Chand hadn’t confided his own fear… but admitted it was
his grace or sermonized about remembering the inner Master if
in peril. The latter seems incomprehensible.

Dungeness, you have done a great thing with this work and post.
There should be no “kurfufel” when the issue is just information and clarification. There should be no personal attacks at all.
As I read more of Post 40 I came across this statement by Puri:
“The fact that the Master knows or does not know should not
hold you up from going within. That was the point he was trying to make. And people have
misunderstood him to say that all Masters know nothing. What he meant was, all Masters are a
projection outside and you must look for the real Master inside you. That’s very important!
Now I am saying the most important step in the journey to Sach Khand, to your true home, is the
journey to your inner Master, not after that. The Perfect Living Master takes full responsibility to
take you back from there and be with you. He never leaves you after that. You are His constant
companion. No person who has ever in meditation experienced the radiant form of a Master has
ever had an experience of loneliness in life at all.”
There are no questions once you are in the presence of the Radiant form. There is no difference between you and the Master. But rather than reduce what that means to be “you” it is more appropriate to expand that definition and say that “you” are really part of everything, and part of that Spirit that drives all. Once you realize the truth of this, there can be no loneliness, no striving or concerns of any weight, because every day you return to this greater Truth within.
Thanks again Dungeness. You have done us all a Seva and it is appreciated.

Hi Dungeness:
For the benefit of all, from the link you provided to essay #80:
Ishwar Puri discusses Faqir’s teachings and the clarifications Faqir himself made to Puri, as his neighbor, as well as his own expansion of those points:
“Therefore, it is important that while we have a perfect living master in our life, we
follow what he says, get instructions from him, understand what he is saying,
follow his instructions to the point that we can manifest his real form inside us,
because the real form inside us will not die, even when the physical form of the
master dies.
My master, Great Master, used to tell me, “The most important thing a disciple
should do while his master is alive is to find out the radiant form inside, to
manifest the radiant form of the master inside before the master dies. In that
case, when the master physically dies, he will never feel he has gone, because
master will stand right in front of him and say, ‘I am not dead. I am here.’”
Once you establish the radiant form of the master, he never goes away. He is with
you all the time. He can be in different places. He can be sitting beside you, and
you see him like you see the physical master. You drive your car, he is a passenger
sitting there, and you see him. You can talk to him, and sometimes you feel like
talking physically in the physical voice. Then you say, even if you think, he can
understand and answer. It is a great friendship. It is a friendship that has no
comparison with any other friendship that we have. And that radiant form of the
master who can appear physically, he can not only appear physically beside you,
he can overlap you. He can say, “Okay, you are not different from me. Ultimately
we are all one,” and he can give you that experience while you are in a physical
body. He is in his astral radiant body, and he can jump into you and merge and
show you, and you won’t know whether it is you or him or the same.”

Ahh, good morning my friends! 🙂
Spence – wow, breath-taking. Quite honestly, despite recognising the whiff of pretence, even I’m surprised at your lack of character and sincerity here. That cognitive dissonnance must be hard to deal with!
So, after recognising that yes, the story Dungeness relates was from 30 prior to what you repeatedly claimed, the full extent of your recognition (contrition, apology, acceptance of error etc?), was you saying to me: “I see the correction later. But you are still unable to admit the fact that the original error painted the picture of a Faqir telling his own disciples he was afraid”.
Wow, absolutely pathetic mate!!
Btw, my original post & subsequent post has nothing at all to do with this ridiculous diversion you’ve created (that I’m “unable to admit” the nature of YOUR and Dungeness’s error? Seriously, time to come back to reality Spence, this has got utterly ridiculous, it is YOU that is embarrassed with your error, why would I be unable to admit it?! YOUR error was repeatedly implied in my posts, this bizarre suggestion that I’m “unable to admit” it is, well, desperate and obviously so!.
But wait, you go even further! You then fly through the link Dungeness provided (and I repasted for you, as you were so terribly mistaken, and arguing about it!) desperately looking for something to criticise with (and clearly finding nothing, hence your vague and ambiguous post, mean-spirited but yet totally and utterly ignorant and based on nothing but your bruised ego, religiious bias & dogmatic blind-belief. And this should be extremely obvious for any semi-intelligent person! This really is getting beyond desperate:
Spence. “It appears that only very late in life did he achieve what he had originally sought, in his own definition. He carried anxiety, of one form or another, all his life.”
Well, re-read my initial post, then my follow up post your initial response.
You will notice there is not a single argument in there that you have contradicted in all your subsequent posts, and in fact re-inforced every single thing I wrote with your ceaseless dishonesty, insincerity & evasions.
Your talk of what “true masters” and what not are, and your desperate criticisms of Chand, are extremely revealing.
You may be terrific at fooling yourself Spence, but I’m afraid your cult leaders are not even in the same league as Chand, either in terms of honesty, sincerity, decency, knowledge, amount of meditation etc etc, and it is spectacularly obvious. Again, re-read my original posts – all your desperate subsequent attempts to “weedle” out of your patently mistaken position and then re-attempt to criticise Chand, the motivations and lack of understanding behind such religous-minded bigotry is all already there. Perhaps you need to re-read without your head up RSSB’s ass? 🙂
This is what happens Spence when YOU judge the height of a tall building from the sub-basement (or whatever other vacuous and insincere comments you projected onto me).
Yes, Spence, I think you’ve done a great “seva” here today. Very revealing indeed! 🙂

I mean honestly, what does it take for a religious bigot to admit they were mistaken?
Why do people have this incessant need to be right, to evade the appearance of mistake, error?
It’s simple; sorry, I was mistaken.
Of course, there are deeper realities Spence could (and should?) admit here, such the insincerity in his comments to me about “judging” the spiritual height or experiences of others……in a thread where I am questioning HIS judgement of a renowned master based on FACTUALLY incorrect statements and a complete ignorance of the subject matter.
But what chance such honestly & integrity?
None! The fellow can’t even admit a simple thing like “I was in error” even when the fact is presented to them repeatedly, let alone sorry, let alone recognising all the other hypocrisies and ignorance and judgements etc.
Wow, guess is the wisdom and maturity of being an experienced RSSB satsangi!

Jen wrote “I’m thinking that if we are religious and have beliefs in a guru or spiritual path or travelling in inner regions etc, we have visions and experiences because its what we want and that data is sent to us, but is it real?”
Hi Jen. I read Campbell’s “Big Toe” trilogy quite a while back (I want to say about 10 years?). Fascinating stuff.
Actually, in my original post to Spence (before I got sidetracked by evasion, dishonesty, distortion, insincerity, religious bigotry, ignorance, the facade of one pretending to know and be other than what they do & are etc :), I was actually going to go a little deeper into how we are creating our realities.
The truth is just so profound and mind-bending…..but to be quite frank, I never discuss these things often if ever, and when the crucible and context is one such as here – where noise, nonsense, ego, dishonesty etc are the top currency – I am not so inclined.
However, I would say, we do create our own reality and therefore experiences to a profound extent. That is why there are no “realised” followers of any RS gurus, ever, except the Masters….who too are not realised when they become masters, as admitted by themselves.
Why?
Because they are creating their dualistic reality, and their subservient position in the model, with their own inner-being. They are locked into duality, lack of progress, non-realisation. And then generate all sorts of experiences and “miracles” etc that seemingly confirm the “reality” of that model.
Ahh, busy now, cannot do the subject justice. Maybe some will have an inkling what I’m referring to!

Hi Manjit,
You say you were going to go a little deeper into how we are creating our realities and experiences.
Hope you can find the time! I am very interested in hearing your pov.
Cheers

Hi Manjit,
I corrected the “WW2” mis-reporting way up-thread after researching the official Faqir Chand website. As I mentioned, the genesis of my error was Ishwar Puri’s talk in which Ishwar mistakenly identifies this incident as occurring in WW2 rather than 1919.
Further, I provided no context about Faqir Chand’s status but Ishwar’s remarks certainly led me to believe he had great regard for him and that made him a possible, maybe even probable, PLM in my book. For some reason I thought everyone “in these here parts” was likely to already know his “rep”. So I didn’t mention it. My bad.
Therefore any misapprehension about F.C.’s status by Spencer or others would be totally understandable in my opinion. I don’t think any further apology is warranted.

Hi Manjit,
I corrected the “WW2” mis-reporting way up-thread after researching the official Faqir Chand website. As I mentioned, the genesis of my error was Ishwar Puri’s talk in which Ishwar mistakenly identifies this incident as occurring in WW2 rather than 1919.
Further, I provided no context about Faqir Chand’s status but Ishwar’s remarks certainly led me to believe he had great regard for him and that made him a possible, maybe even probable, PLM in my book. For some reason I thought everyone “in these here parts” was likely to already know his “rep”. So I didn’t mention it. My bad.
Therefore any misapprehension about F.C.’s status by Spencer or others would be totally understandable in my opinion. I don’t think any further apology is warranted.

Hi Jen – thanks for your comment! 🙂 Well, it’s a vast….infinite?….subject, perhaps a subject of “all there is” even! So, I really need some context or limitation of scope to even approach the subject. There are so many layers or dimensions of reality and experience this concept of “you create your reality” applies to that I’m not sure where to begin, especially in a world where this idea is most popularised in imo naive, delusional and deeply mistaken notions of “the power of attraction” and the like (the “you” that “creates” your “reality” is not the little you that has superficial and materialistic desires and wants, it is far, far deeper than that, and that “you” often has motivations in direct conflict with the little ego that has short-sighted materialistic motivations).
It is all about what you consider your self to be, your consciousness, and reality etc. The “mechanics” of how this “creating your reality” occurs is vast and incredibly complex, and stretches from undifferentiated consciousness right down to this little bubble of isolated consciousness we call “me”.
It is best to experience it yourself. You’ve been listening to Campbell’s youtube videos (I’ve seen many too, but years ago)? Engage with some of the practices he suggests, open your consciousness up to the infinite possibilities 🙂 Campbell says he is a proficient traveller of “inner worlds” (and I believe him), and he has a long history and experience with such states going back to his close & intimate relationship to Robert Monroe (of the Monroe Institute and OBE books legendary fame!), and was one of the main creators of the “hemi-sync” technologies they sold under the name “Gateway Programme”. Basically, I suggest he has more experience with altered states of consciousness & “inner regions” than 99% of people on forums such as this and RSS, and without 99% of the vacuous and fluffy dogmatic hyper-egotistical hyper-bole behind it.
Anyway, this isn’t answering your question – to be honest, it is frightening to attempt to discuss the “mechanics” of “creating your own reality” in intellectual terms and concepts……it is a lifetime’s work, and I’m not up to that job 🙂 Perhaps you have a more specific interest in that topic to discuss?
Cheers & take care,
Manjit

Hi Dungeness, thanks for your comment. You wrote:
“Therefore any misapprehension about F.C.’s status by Spencer or others would be totally understandable in my opinion. I don’t think any further apology is warranted.”
Sorry, I think there is a misunderstanding here. First of all, I never for one moment thought there was any reason for YOU to apologise for anything. A mistake was made, an error. We all make them, no biggie at all! Damn, I’d be astonished if in my above posts I didn’t make one or two errors with timelines or facts or details etc! We are all, after all, human.
Secondly, I never for one moment thought even Spence should “apologise”….in my ORIGINAL post. (please, for the sake of Satnam, re-read that post! The point of debate has been shifted so radically, it’s quite disturbing to see!). Spence mistakenly thought, for WHATEVER reason, that Chand claimed to be afraid of losing his body during WW2 whilst he was a “Satguru”. No biggie, it was a mistake. And, that is PRECISELY what my response was suggesting.
What I do feel somebody of decent character would do, is admit that error at some point (not claim to be a “middle-man”, a “messenger” – because YOU never said Chand couldn’t be a “Master”), and ultimately apologise for the subsequent 5 posts where he constantly shifts and “weedles” and accuses me of being incorrect. And then when sheepishly realising he was mistaken, STILL trying to blame me, and even then reading Chand’s webpage SPECIFICALLY to find something to criticise him with. This is PRECISELY the sort of ignorant, close-minded, bigoted behaviour I actually describe in my original two posts. All the while, Spence is dropping these cliched & worn-out fancy sounding metaphors about how I shouldn’t judge the spiritual state of others, whilst doing that to the legend that is Chand…..without even knowing ANYTHING about him?!! Surely the irony isn’t lost on EVERYONE reading this thread?! 😮
Re-read my original comments, and Spence’s responses to it, please. He has only vindicated every single point I made, and ignored all the others he couldn’t even begin to address.
And to be clear, I don’t want an apology, I couldn’t care in the slightest. I just think it’s a sad state of affairs when people simply aren’t able to face the truth and show some character and decency.
Say what you like about me – arrogant, egotistical, harsh, rude, abrupt etc (on this public forum, at least). You may well be right, I don’t know. I don’t even really care (about appearances, I know how I think on the “inside”). But one thing I am quite sure of myself is that I am a slave to the “truth”. I bow and prostrate it at every waking moment. I will not distort reality to fit the desires and beliefs of my ego. If I am incorrect about something, I am incorrect (and I very often am). I readily accept correction. If Spence had posted a link showing Chand did INDEED say he was shaking with fear in WW2, I would have apologised and got on with it. Damn, it wouldn’t have even made a difference to the deeper points I made!!…..I even said my memory fails me & I haven’t read Chand in at least 13+ years, I was ready & willing to be proven incorrect at any point! I also, I believe, tend to apologise when corrected after being so absurdly arrogant in my erroneous proclamations. No biggie! I will completely upturn everything in my reality if I am shown something that contradicts it, and would do it swiftly. I have no sacred cows, beliefs, predispositions etc to protect. My only love, and interest, is the “truth”. The truth of our being, our consciousness, our reality, our experiences. The rest is all show. It seems, for some, it is ALL show.
Cheerio 🙂

Manjit!
Wow. Look, I read a post of Dungeness, one that actually was correct in so far as Dungeness accurately cited what Ishwar Puri had stated, though it is at odds a tad from Faqir’s autobiography.
I didn’t spot Dungeness correction, which actually was simply the link to the autobiography attributed to Faqir.
Until you pointed it out…(several times)….And yes, I missed it.
I apologize for that slip, Manjit.
I see how much you honor Faqir, and that love shines through above your vitriol.
That I can be wrong? Happens several times an hour!
But two things, Manjit. First, the statement I made about Faqir, which you took umption with, was just an interpretation of, what turns out is actually Ishwar Puri’s rendition of the story.
Insofar as that information is wrong, so is my interpretation.
At no point did I claim this was Faqir. I only claimed to base my statement upon the narrative.
Again, I don’t know Faqir.
I did, as a result of all the above, get a chance to read more of the autobiography as well as more of Ishwar Puri. Though the stories differ, they are both beautiful.
I want to return to a statement I made earlier and expand a bit on it.
From where we are at the bottom, we cannot rightly judge anyone else. I can’t actually say who or what Faqir was. I can only interpret writings about him, and to the extent they are right or wrong so will be my interpretation.
So, in the end, and given that Dungeness accurately relayed two different accounts of the same situation from two different sources, I withdraw any judgement, positive or negative, about Faqir altogether. I don’t have enough information to draw a conclusion.
I deeply apologize that my earlier remarks were offensive to you. Again, your love for Faqir is humbling to me, and I submit my poor judgement to that love.

To Manjit and Jen, or others interested in Robert Monroe Hemisync Astral Travel. Tom Campbell seems to have lost his Gaddi position at the Monroe Ashram to William Buhlman.
He and his wife teach Workshops now at the Monroe TMI Ashram in Virginia as well as their own Workshops. He has a large Internet presence, and has written many books, as well as having many youtube interviews, so if interested, check him out. He, like Gurinder Singh is a Throat Cancer survivor. His wife has been a Hospice Nurse for years, so between them, they make an interesting couple at TMI. I have listened to many of his talks as well as read some of his books. But my opinion, is , his, Campbell’s, as well as Monroe’s, are all low Astral realm
Lucid Dream experiences. Their terminology is dfferent than Sant Mat terminology, as they define the Astral and Causal realms as Focus Numbers, with Focus 21 seeming to be their Goal. Their using outer music and sounds from Audio CDs as well as flotation tanks keeps awareness locked inside the body, below the Third Eye level, IMO.I have sat thru many of the Gateway Series CDs, and have never been able to go inside using any of their CDs. All relaxing meditation music tho. I prefer the Inner Shabd Music that is the Sound of Silence.
https://www.monroeinstitute.org/william-buhlman
Jim Sutherland

Well that is, errr, very magnanimous of you 🙂
You write: “I deeply apologize that my earlier remarks were offensive to you.”
They weren’t. Your subsequent 7 or so posts double, triple-downing etc on a simple factually incorrect statement were just bizarre. The vitriol contained in THOSE posts, well, it’s nice you’ve apologised anyway, thanks. Neither here nor there to me, personally. I wasn’t remotely offended, more so astonished at the human condition. You have your own conscience.
You write: “your love for Faqir…”
Yes, it’s a strange sort of “love”.
Whilst you get up every morning and force yourself to picture the face of your “love”, repeat names they gave to you, for several hours, put their pictures up on your walls, read their books, live by the lifestyle they made you “vow” to keep, generally remember them all throughout the day etc…..
…..I on the other hand haven’t even thought about any aspect of Chand or his teachings for what must be years, totally absent from my conscious stream of experience. No thought or concern, almost as if he doesn’t even exist.
Until I check out this forum for the first time in ages and am immediately faced with this post from 777:
“”Pity the Faqir didn’t understand about the GIHF phenomenon””
Now, I genuinely found that hilarious, I believe I even laughed out loud in the workplace!! 🙂 So, I couldn’t help responding with a cheeky comment. Almost straight after which you posted your judgemental & clearly ignorant & uninformed piece about Chand. So I responded.
Yes, a strange sort of “love” indeed.
It is not restricted to the bodies of conmen, fakes and pretenders. Though, and you may not notice this in your ego-bruised & ego-bound state (:P), I love them too.
God bless you Spence….oh wait, you’ve got the real “connec'”, please put in a good word for me Spence, let me be for forgiven for my errors, I know not what I do. I would, for you, truly & genuinely I would.
🙂

Hi Jim – thanks for your posts, you’re an interesting fellow with a fair bit of variety in experience! Would love to hear more of your experiences with the hemi-sync?
I’ve got to leave now & for the rest of today so don’t have time to really get into anything re your comment about “astral” etc, though they are interesting subjects of discussion I feel. And yes, read Buhlman’s book/s decades ago too! Maybe get into these subjects another time.
Cheers 🙂

Hi Manjit!
I didn’t need to put in a good word.
Maharaji said “Today Manjit is your teacher.”
So, that was pretty rough for a few seconds. But you are held in high regard, already.
Where there are so many fakes, so many copies, there among them is the original.

To Manjit,…….other than a Troll, now and then, I think all of us who post and read here are seekers of Truth, rather than lies. If we believe Oneness Neo- Advaita Philosphy, we are all nothing but lies. “ we” don’t even exist, so must not be able to seek any thing, truth or lies.
As for Hemisync, there are hundreds of free CDs as well as most of the Gateway series on Youtube. As in Meditation, every one usuually has, or will have different experiences, due to our variety of environment and Culture.
I posted Links to this Guy in the past, but in case you missed it, here it is again. He also has books and many free Youtube Interviews. I think he goes deeper than the Monroe people. I think he posted on their TMI group for a short while, but was run off for not spouting their Party Line, which ALWAYS has happened to me , most places I have tried to intrude.
So far, this Church is the only one I have not been run off for farting in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p998pkuUZxY
Jim Sutherland

Whoa whoa – just read Manjits comment that Gurinder was taking about sexual positions????? Why??????????
I need to know this as I have spent the last 40 years living like a yogi and avoiding sex. Is that true that Gurinder discusses sexual positions?? If so I’m going out on the pull tonight!!!!

Value of inspiration from Sant -mat Saints is that the illusion, lust, passion is always attacking the serious disciple. When disciple thinks about them it gives him courage to walk upon this most difficult path. Even a single thought has the power to destroy years of effort.
Kindly listen to this, 90 yr old Saint Huzur Capt Lal Chand disciple of Baba Faqir Chand talking to western disciple.When he met Faqir Chand for the first time, the pull of Sound current placed him in Trance / Samadhi. Faqir Chand told Captain, What I could achieve by decades of practice, you have achieved in short span. Faqir Chand told him as if by clairvoyance, your path was short but your pralabdh/ lifespan to live in the world is long. Everything is not mentioned in interview, I have been following this Saint by reading about him, therefore, I know some tidbits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kGKoHD9XJE

Wow guys, so much good energy I can feel in your comments. Lifted my spirits, like a whirlwind coming through or probably more like a hurricane just blasting through and sweeping away the debris. Very informative.
Reminded me of when I was reading Carlos Castaneda, Robert Monroe and Tom Campbell which seems like ages ago now.
Jim made me laugh out loud – “So far, this Church is the only one I have not been run off for farting in.” Going to listen to Jurgen Ziewe youtube he posted.
So much more interesting than the mundane lifestyle that so many “normal” people live.
Yes, we are on the Discovering the Truth Movement. Way to go!
Cheers guys

After you listen to a few of Jurgen’s descriptions of his inner travels in Astral realms, he sure hasn’t seemed to have lost his ability of unlimited future experiences because of sharing inner experiences, as is taboo in Sant Mat groups. Regardless of the warnings not to discuss inner experiences, from the Git Go, I always shared my experiences with interested mystics. Some one first shared with me, or I would have never been interested in my own inner explorations. Every single time I sit in Meditation, I am in anticipation and expectation to experience some thing new. Only the Lights and sounds to the Entrance Gate to the Astral Realms remain fairly similar each meditation time, but after entering the Gate, no experience ever repeats itself. That alone is a valid motvation to never quit meditating. I think instead of loosing your Spirituality by sharing with others, you gain more by sharing.
Jim Sutherland

@ Jim Sutherland. Hello. May I ask which Master initiated you?

Arjuna asks Jim: “ Hello. May I ask which Master initiated you?”
Me: You must be a new Church Member here, or if not, very selective in your reading. I have posted numerous times that first, Thakar Singh initiated me, then a couple of years later, Charan Singh initiated me.
Jim Sutherland

To Arjuna from Jim Sutherland,…..this is posted here elsewhere, but here it is again for you. I posted this in RSS around 2002 or so, which actually happend in the mid 1990s.
“Now, for what I found and did not find, in my Space Cadet tours:
As stated before, I never saw any light nor heards any sound before initiation. At initiation, and being free of flesh foods for 90 days, alcohol and drugs for 10 years, I did see a few small “sparks” of light and did hear some “conch or sea shell” sounds when Thakar stuck his thumb in my ear! ( I don’t know if the video on Lane’s web sight is true, but if so, I’d have been a lot more cautious after I saw it to make sure it was only his thump he was stickling into my ear!!!)
After I got home and started to practice on my own, using the simran and Bajan technique, I saw flases of light that lasted longer, and heard sound that was louder. I took my lessons from Sawan’s book, “Spiritual Gems.” I spent two years meditating under thakar’s regime, both home and with others at his meetings, but was never able to get any further then the flashes of light nor hear any sound without plugging my ears with my thumbs. Many of Thakar’s desciples carried around “bajan sticks” everywhere with them. It was a stick shaped like a cross or tee about 3 ft. high. you could sit down in a chair and put or rest your arms on the cross at the top of the stick, and plug your ears with your thumbs for long periods, without exhausting your arms. It seems not very many meditaters I saw in Thakar’s group spent much time in bajan. they mostly used the sticks, or just sat in chairs plugging their ears, and many used real ear plugs. I tried all of the above, but never got beyond the flases of light, not conch sound only when the ears were plugged. So, boredom sat in after a couple of years, and I was either ready to jump the fence to greener pastures, or quit, altogether. I talked to many Kirpal initiates who had come to Thakar, and most of them were on the same experince level as I, i.e. bored!! I can’t ever remember meeting Thakar on the inside. During my early attemps at meditation, I did see many phantam like people I didn’t recognize, and even demon like creatures who taunted me! I also felt like I was always off balance, or was ready to lift off my meditation chair, but never really did. I would seem to fall asleep, and my head would fall forward onto my chest, and I would wake up choking or gasping for air, as my wind pipe would be cut off. I read where a master tied his hair to a tree, so his head would stay up, but, I am bald, so that woudn’t work for me! So, I tilted my recliner chair I was meditating in just back far enough, so that my head would not fall on my chest, but my spine would stay straight. But, as BAB testified about her meditation expierinces, there was mostly a lot of snoring. At the satsang meeting, we would meditate as a group, and there would be many snoring! so, doubts began to set in for me, and I started to expolre new possibilities. I read Darshan Singh’s books, went to a couple of his meetings. I didn’t likle his looks, and his talks never got a hook in me. I read Ajib Singh’s books, and liked them, and sent for his tapes. He didn’t speak English, so needed an interpreter, and I just couldn’t feel any heart strings pulling me in his direction. As I said, I was reading Agra books, and enjoyed them, but RSSB books really moved my soul the most! I began to feel I wanted to find how I could get initiation from Charan. ( Before I forget, when I finally did get initiated by Roland DeVries by proxy for Charon, I was first surprised that the simran was the same, but he went into more detail about the bajan posture. The reading of the initiation cerimony from charan was moving and interesting for me, but in all, I was dissapointed in the simplicity of the initiation itself, as it seemed to be just a carbon copy of Thakar’s and I had already wasted two years using that method without any significant or satisfying results. I left there actually not very encouraged that I would get any more then I already had.
I went home and started the same old meditation routine, but just changed my visualization from Thakar to Charan. It was difficult to make the transition at first, because I had seen Thakar many times in person, and even had been laser beam zapped by him, but had never seen Charan in person. But, I bought his videos at satsang, and every cassette tape that was available and begain to view the tapes. The transition begain to really take a hold on me, and after listening to hundreds of his tapes with all the usual Q & A sessions in India, I became an “Arm Chair Desciple.” I can’t really say I fell in love with Charan, long distance, because he had already left the body before we had a chance to establish any real relationship such as most of you core satsangees had with him, but I did really develope a very strong fondness for him. ( I will try and describe my present feeling for him and reasons in a later post.)
I must say, after what I considered the boring initiation by Roland DeVries,( I have always wondered if he reads these posts, or if he might even be an Xer or at least a Lurker on the fence?) I must confess my meditation expierience took off in leeps and bounds as I applied the time sitting. I religiously sat from 4:30 AM until 7:00 AM for seven years. My job schedule allowed me the liberty of doing so, but, I changed jobs, and could no longer keep any definite schedule, and until now, my meditations were hit and miss, 30 min. to an hour here and there.
But, I progressed to large flases of light, even like lighning bolts, as Sawan said would happen. I first saw bright light, bright as the sun, a golden color. Then, beyond the sun, I saw a silvery white sphere, that looked like the moon, Sawan said that would be there. Please note, I never saw everyhing all at once, and it took about five years before I progressed past the moon. Then, after the moon, I saw what I think Sawan refered to as The Star. For me, the star was not 5 pointed, but it actually looked like a glittering diamond, to a silvery white glittering lotus flower. There was a black center in the star, and I fought to keep my focus on the center looking at the black hole. Suddenly, either the star started moving towards me real fast, or I started to be sucked ito the vortex of the black hole in the star. I don’t know which, to this day. But, with a lot of practice, I finally was sucked through the center of the star, and that’s when the real experiences began! Don’t ask me what plane of level or realm I was on, I just don’t know.
But, after I broke through the “Black Hole” of the Lotus, I seemed to be in outer space, but the sky was a very bright blue, more blue then any blue sky I have ever experienced. Plus, I was traveling at a very high rate of speed. I felt like I was still sitting in the meditation position, and like I was on a magic carpet. I fought to maintain my balance as it felt like I kept slipping off the carpet and would turn on my side or up side down. I kept focussing right at the center but, was able to see a round planet of some type on my left far ahead, and also another larger planet, (round) on my right, far ahead of me. I was moving so fast, that I actually felt (or seemed to) feel the wind in my face and my hair, (what little I had left) blowing in the wind. When the speed increased to WARP speed, I started to panic, and looked back from where I came from, and as God is my withness, I actually saw the earth back there with all the water and land masses, just like we see from the space shots. I really paniced, then, and…….,ZAPP! I woke up back in by body, or back from the space cadet trip, at least. Now, if all those experiences were the results of just brain neurons firing, I sure seemed to have a lot of input and control on the metodology of having taken the trip. This was my peak experience, and I only went that far out once. But, I spent many more years trying to get there and beyond, with out the success again. I was able to (and am still able) to get to the star, but am never allowed to go through the black hole, or portal again. ( Guess after giving away my experience to ya’ll, I won’t even see any more flases or specks of light, but, I’m OK with that, too.)
I also had many OBEs, and went through walls, ceilings, through the roof, and rode my magic carpet over the houses in my neighborhood. It seemed I always kept picking up speed to WARP until I paniced, and ZAPP! I landed back in my body in my meditation chair with a noticeable THUD.
Well, that’s the high lights of my meditation experiences, for what ever its worth to the club. I trust I may also be put into the “Lunny” catagory by some here, along with other past posters who chose to bare more of their expiernces than some are ready to hear, but, that’s OK. As they say, “different strokes for different folks.”
I must say, before I move on, none of these past experiences presently make me feel any more spiritual nor stroke my ego. I only witness that they happened to me, and I am still able to get at least to the star, using the RSSB technique described by Sawan in “Spiritual Gems.” Will it save me from The Wheel of 84?” You be the judge.”

@ Jim, Thank you for posting that -most kind.
Thats amazing – you have abilities which some would consider unnatural. But they are not – you are awake.
Kind regards
Vijay

@ Jim
Why do you consider the chap who initiated you (Roland) to be an Xer or sitting on the fence?

Arguna, …..I wrote that Article 15-16 years ago. Roland is long dead. Brian Hines posted about his death some where on his blogs that he had died in his 80s. I never knew him as well as other Old Timers here. There were mostly Exers where I originally posted that Article, as there are here. I don’t believe Roland ever left The Path. Since most Posters never reveal their real Names when they post, and use Avatars, he very well could have been reading and posting there, or here, using an Avatar. Other RSSB Reps have posted using Avatars. Walking Now was one I remember. For all we know, Gurinder might even post here using an Avatar. In all the years I have posted, I have always used my real Name, because I never had, nor have, any thing to hide. Posters using secret Avatars, some times, more than one, can lie, stir up propaganda, start riots, slander others, destroy friends, than vanish. I have met many such Trolls over the years. People who use their real Names usually stand by what they post, as I do.
Jim Sutherland

@ Jim- I can tell you are a man of substance just by reading your posts.
I am just a guy in my 40s trying to find answers to the most elusive questions which can be asked.
I was initiated by a rep of Gurinder Singh. I am not ashamed to say the reason I wrote on this blog was due to being lost.
I have lived a pretty decent life in that people call me a nice guy but I lost faith about RSSB when I started to read about the Masters business dealings – I am now not sure that I am on the right path. If I was to tell this to my family they would think I have lost my way or someone has corrupted me.
I just want to know if Gurinder Singh is the real McCoy- I am rather disheartened after I heard that he said the master doesn’t come at death and he is only a guide. Does this mean we get no help. And if we can not go within without Grace – who pulls us up.
This is the biggest bug I carry on weak shoulders.
Kind regards

Thanks Jim, for sharing your inner experiences. First time I have heard a satsangi doing this.
Much appreciated.

Arjuna, …..I feel your pain! He is a dissapointment to me as well, considering he not only is Charan’s chosen Successor for RSSB, but also is in the Family Blood Line. But he was never my Master, and had he been, knowing what I know now, I would not have been drawn to him.
My Fate is already cast, as a Charan Initiate. But your Fate is a little different than mine, yet perhaps not as serious as you imagine. I will try to give you my most honest assessment, here, because surely, there are other Gurinder Initiates that are in your very same perdictiment that mght read here.
But first, and foremost, you and the others must decide for yourselves how to proceed.
I was once at your Cross Road with Sant Thakar Singh, and chose to Up Grade to Charan Singh, to RSSB from the Ruhani Kirpal Singh Lineage. I thought, and still do, it was an Up Grade.
So, if now, Gurinder Singh was my Initiating Master, I would also have to decide whether to either leave the RSSB Lineage and seek another Sant Mat Master, ……or,….leave the Sant Mat Path altogether. So, what would I do?
Well, first and foremost, I would certainly have to be drawn to another Master that The Father has Marked me for! If I ever was drawn to such a Master, before I die, I certainly would seek Initiation from Him. You are still young. You have lots of time. Many future Masters may arrive on tne Sant Mat scene before you die. I never even came to the Sant Mat Path until I was 45 years old!
But when you originally came to the Sant Mat Path, was it because of being convinced that Sant Mat was the Highest and Purest Path, and you felt you were surely Marked by The Father to enter the Path and start your Journey to return Home and escape The Wheel of 84,………or,………was it because of your love for Gurinder Singh?
If the later, than nothing can destroy real Love, not even the misbehavior of your Master. So you have no other choice but to stay Chained to him, because Love has no other choice.
But if it was the Sant Mat Path that originally took you prisoner, than, you have no problem at all, because you have already inherited the protection of ALL Sant Mat Masters, because, ALL Masters are the same inside!
If Gurinder does not show up at death, Charan, Sawan, Jamael, or Swamiji wll!
So, have no fear. Master will be there to meet you and I , and all Initiates who are still on the Path as best as they, ( we ) are able, when we die.
You had to go thru the same Application Process that I had to in order to be accepted in to the RSSB Lineage, so you certainly could not have came in blind, nor naive about the Path.
It is a Path of Meditation, and all rewards are found INSIDE. You have inherited a Genuine Technique to enter The Kingdom of God Within. How you use it, only is your choice, and can only be used or discarded by YOU.
So, Gurinder Sngh’s actions now have nothing to do with keeping you from entering inside your very own Temple to meet the Master within. Only YOU can decide to stay outside and not enter in. You already own the Ticket to board the Viceroy Express to Sach Khand!
Use it,….or loose it.
Unless you are convinced there is a better and higher purer Path than Sant Mat, your only choice, is as I have tried to outline above. That’s how I would proceed if I was at your Cross Road.
Radha Soami Brother,
Jm Sutherland

@ Jim. Wow that has really blown my circuits out.
I will respond in depth later but in response to your question – I was born into a family who were on the path. My Mother was initiated by the Great Master when she was but a child.
I only concern now is- does the initiation work? Is still a bullet loaded with power fired from a gun or just a bullet lying on the table?
Speak sn.
RS Brother

Jim, I have watched quite a few of Jurgen Ziewe youtubes and also downloaded his book “Multi-Dimensional Man” onto my mini-ipad some years ago.
If he and many others have had out of body experiences travelling in the different spiritual realms, why do we need a Master?
You yourself have had experiences and you did not see the Master?

Jen, …Jurgen was a TMer, Desciple, early on. What I get from him, is that there is more to explore inside, than we have time for, in a single life. Also, that also indicates there IS after life continuation, because of his meeting his parents and family there.
If you can honestly admit that all you know presently, you could have just as well received with out a Master or from Charan and RSSB, and every one who reads your confessions and believes you,….than they don’t need a Master.
As for me, ……..I am what I am because I followed the Path set out for me as each door opened. I never seemed to have had any other choices as my life opportunities and desires unfolded.
I saw many Masters during my Astral travels, some with Turbans, some with Head Wrappings, as the Arabs and Christian Prophets of old wore, and many with nothing on their heads. But when I encountered them, none of them spoke or tried to communicate with me, either audably, or telepathically. They just all stayed still, and stared at me. I believe they were the Astral Shells left behind by their Souls that had either reincarnated physically, or rose to the Causal Realm. These Astral shells were like Zombies, not yet disintegrated.
Also, Astral bodies are able to Shape Shift, as corroborated by both Jurgan and Ishwar Puri, which I have also seen and experienced inside. That alone explains much confusion.
Nothing prevents any Sant Mat Initiate from not only exploring other Paths, but trying them out. If you ever find any thiing better, or more convincing that compells you to completely sever your Sant Mat Chains and go for a new one, or proceed on your own, than who am I to stand in your way?
As for me, I use every thing of value I have been gifted by Sant Mat and especially from RSSB, but I also use all of my other Christian, Rosicrucian, Martinist Gifts as Eternity Insurance, and unless any thing of greater value is offered to me, I will die before too many more years as I am now, and remembered as long as a fart in the wind by not only my family and friends, but by all who ever knew me including members of this Church.
Jim Sutherland

Hi Arjuna
Is fear of death your principle motivation for meditation and interest in Sant Mat?
When and where were you initiated?
Also, I’m curious to know what your experience was when you have seen Baba Ji.

Hi Arjuna
Is fear of death the principle reason behind your interest in the path? Or?…
When were you initiated?

Hi Jim,
I do enjoy your posts and your sense of humour as in being remembered “as long as a fart in the wind”.
Interesting what you have experienced in encountering different beings who are likely Astral Shells (something new to me) also the illusionary effect of astral bodies shape shifting.
I do appreciate following the Sant Mat rules of vegetarianism, no alcohol / drugs, living a moral life etc, probably helps us to evolve into a more elevated next life experience. It seems we are going to need a strong resolve and will power, even more than on this planet.

@ Spencer – in response to your question I have always had experiences which I can’t explain whilst awake. I am interested in understanding and know the creator of this play.
You ask if it is fear! Yes I want a true guide who will be there within as there will be forces you cannot fathom. The Dark Prince will not let you through that easy – would you go anywhere really bad with a guide? Would you go for a walk in to gang territory at 2am? Alone??? No I didn’t think so.
I am sick of conmen and fraudsters – I just want a real guide!!!! Is that too much to ask!!!!

To Jen,……
I first heard of “ Astral Shells” after reading “ The Secret Doctrine” by H.P. Blavatsky many yeas ago, even before I even heard of Sant Mat.
She called the Astral Realm “ Kama Luka” as I recall. “The shell in Kama Loka is known as the Kama Rupa, meaning “desire form.” It is soulless and any surviving intelligence it has is basic and automatic. It has no individual consciousness of its own. It is just the amalgamation of the dregs of the lower nature from the lifetime just ended.
It will remain in Kama Loka until all its remaining passion and force completely wears out and then it will disintegrate entirely and cease to be. This may take weeks, months, or years, again determined by the force and amount of sensuality.”
There is a Lady who occasionally reads here, and posts using an Avatar who believes that HPB was one of the lives her Soul lived as. She used to have a Theosophy Web site, and was very active in posting at RSS , because she is a Charan Singh Initiate, But the EXers ran her off along with Michael Martin and I because we didn’t spout the Party Line. Also, the Core posters at Lane’s RSS site were Jews, mostly Sant Mat Exers who were Atheists, and this Lady , as HPB , was not shy about exposing her feelings about how the U.S. Govt. was under the Jurisdiction of Jews. That was 12-15 years ago, or so, but looking at the current situation, not much has changed. She might read this, and reminisce. But she no longer posts on these sites nor takes any positions.
As for my seeing Astral Shells, i even saw Michael Martin’s once! My Astral body was flying real fast, where ever it was going, and it met Mchael Martin’s Astral shell full body, which had not yet lost its form nor identification, including his mustache! Even his eyes were open, but he was just floating there, with no movement, and looked like a dead corpse. I only saw him that one time, which was a few years after he had died, so its difficult to know if his Astral body was a Shell, or still in shock from physicsl death. But as a Charan Initiate, and a real loyal one, I may add, he may have been in tne Causal Plane with Charan.
Jim Sutherland

Hi Arjuna:
Thank you for sharing your interest in pursuing a spiritual path with a true Guide.
Where there are copies, where there are fakes, there must be the original, and there is.
So when you see so many fakes, so much false information, or misleading information, and when you have so many doubts, then you are in the middle of the journey. Set your criteria for truth, and continue the investigation. But all that you see, actually reflects that somewhere in this house of mirrors is the original from which the others are taking their reflections. Each mirror says “It’s Me! and I’m you!” but there is so much distortion in that house of mirrors.
To find that original, the true Guide out is part of the journey. So that is the work we each must undertake.
You mentioned the Dark Prince. I would be interested to hear more about your experience / beliefs about it.
Spence

@ Spencer – the problem is the Dark Prince is not “dark”. 😀
He is one of the original emanations from GOD!!!!

Also, the Core posters at Lane’s RSS site were Jews, mostly
Sant Mat Exers who were Atheists, and this Lady , as HPB , was
not shy about exposing her feelings about how the U.S. Govt. was
under the Jurisdiction of Jews.
I am curious about about the perception of Jewish influence by
HPB. In my experience this is typical of racist memes so I’m very
surprised to see it mentioned here.

To Jen,….
Yogi Charakara writes a Chapter about Astral Shells in one of his books.
https://books.google.com/books?id=T7cMAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT69&lpg=PT69&dq=what+are+Astral+Shells?&source=bl&ots=zok3Khy0qv&sig=eVN61ro2-yhTioWxEhK84YCRJ1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_j4vGnq3aAhUESq0KHfPNDeI4ChDoATAFegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=what%20are%20Astral%20Shells%3F&f=false

Hi Arjuna:
You wrote:
“the problem is the Dark Prince is not “dark”. 😀
He is one of the original emanations from GOD!!!!”
Everything, at least as far as I am aware of, came from God.
Can you be a little more specific about what qualities makes this entity “dark” or not “dark” and your experience of it?
THANKS

@ Spencer- why are you so interested in something that we should avoid??? Im curious 🙂

ABRAXIS is the Dark Prince.
https://gnosticwarrior.com/abraxas.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-43422030
This is why I stopped going!!!!!!!!

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
“why are you so interested in something that we should avoid??? Im curious :-)”
I’m unfamiliar with your terminology and the source of your fears.
Hopefully you can expand?

@spencer let it go brother. Don’t spend a life time analysing words.
Don’t worry about my fears x

Astral plane is thoughts & causal plane is desires preceding thoughts, people you see there are not real, they are your own projections of your love/attachment with them. Only Shabd/Sound is real & above sound light due to increased frequency of vibration of sound current.
Proof: David Lane interview with Prof Bhagat Ram Kamal. He candidly tells David Lane that when Baba Faqir Chand told him that his own pure mind makes the image of Faqir Chand. He felt shocked by the honesty of Faqir Chand & from that day onwards, no image of Faqir Chand came, instead, he saw pure light without any image & what that light is ” Pure Consciousness” / ” Atomic Energy ” / “Unified Field”. But this brutal honesty is dangerous, the person loses all attachment to world, he becomes hard-hearted. Still, people who are doing meditation with love of Saint are better because love gives companionship to the Soul of a disciple.

Also, the Core posters at Lane’s RSS site were Jews, mostly
Sant Mat Exers who were Atheists, and this Lady , as HPB , was
not shy about exposing her feelings about how the U.S. Govt. was
under the Jurisdiction of Jews.
Sorry, Jim, I don’t want to start a polemic, but these statements bother me.
How can someone speak definitively about the background of posters on
Lane’s site? And why would they repeat such a racist meme?
Further, what is the basis for those assertions about HPM? The Theosophical
Society compelling debunks their substance:
https://blavatskytheosophy.com/responding-to-lies-about-h-p-blavatsky/

Vinny writes,…..”Proof: David Lane interview with Prof Bhagat Ram Kamal. He candidly tells David Lane that when Baba Faqir Chand told him that his own pure mind makes the image of Faqir Chand.”
Me: Why are their opinions proof? Why do you believe either of them have more Authority or knowledge than me, to determine what is proof in Astral and Causal realms? Do you personally know any of us, or have you monitored our daily actvites , other than what we personally have shared with the Public?
Have YOU, personally, Vinny, spent a Tithe of your time meditating for a decade or more, doing Expoloration of Conciousness?
If not, you are in no position to base your proof on other people’s opinions and conjectures.
99% of the disincarnated entities I have seen inside during Meditation and Lucid dreams were complete strangers, unknown to me. So they were not projections of my own “love/attachments to them.”

To Dungeness, …….if you have any personal questions to me, then step out from hiding inside your Dungeon and reveal your real Name.
Then, I will honestly answer any question you ask me. I must have hit a nerve in your Dungen.
This is the “Open Comments” Thread, so why are you all of a sudden attempting to muzzle me? What do you have to hide? My comments started with Astral Shells, and I only mentioned HPB as corraboration as one of the references.
But, if you really want to acuse me of Racism,…..than you first need to come out f yoyr dungen, reveal who you really are, and why you are concerned about what I think, than we can openly communicate before this Open Church Jury. Other wise, stay hidden in your dungeon.

But, if you really want to acuse me of Racism,…..than you first need to come out f yoyr dungen, reveal who you really are, and why you are concerned about what I think, than we can openly communicate before this Open Church Jury. Other wise, stay hidden in your dungeon
Sure, you can say anything you like in Open Thread. That includes challenging
an overt appearance of racism. And no, I don’t need to reveal my name. It’s
not important. By your actions, you shall know them.

I’m speaking from my personal experience, mind [ Astral world ]becomes numb , Causal world [desires preceding thoughts] vanish due to numbing of mind. Sound current opens up, just like electricity rushing through wires. Only sound current & light created by its vibration are truths.
In my experience, it is the same “Atomic energy”/ Shabd which makes the electrons move in atom.
Conversely, I have no attachment/love with anyone, therefore I say love gives companionship, nothing else.

The link that Arjuna posted. I can understand how devastated some satsangis must have been when there was a death at the Science of the Soul Centre at Haynes Park, the hall where they held their satsangs.
Satsangis believe that the Master is their saviour and protector and this must have been very difficult for them. I wonder if Gurinder had anything to say about it?
Dungeness, why are you posting your comment 2 and even 3 times, gotta get your computer fixed 😬

Vinny, I agree with what you said in this last post. Its the prior post where I have disagreements with. So let’s call it a Draw, and agree to disagree on how Proof becomes authoritve based on who claims it to be proof.

@ Jen – yes it is heart destroying losing anyone and yes it would be interesting to hear Gurinder speak on this. But they certainly appear to be in a pickle in this case.
My name is Arjuna Dev. And I think it’s important to reveal and not hide behind an avatar!!! In the army – we are trained to man up and eyes front. We hide from the enemy in plan sight. But shouldn’t in the web under an avatar loool.

To Arjuna,….I thought I saw one of your recent posts closing signed “ Vijay” was I mstaken? In fact, I almst responded that one of my good friend’s first Name is Vijay, who I worked with 15 years ago, and we are still in contact as Facebook friends,
I thought Arjuna was your Avatar. Please correct me if I misunderstood.
As for the Haynes Park accident, it is sad obviously. Its amazing more accidents haven’t happened with death occurring in some of the many RSSB Facilities, considering all of the free labor by untrained and unsupervised personel is done at all the different Sangats.
I would imagine Gurinder must have addressed the family of the deceased , but the cover up is what’s in question. Who was the accident being covered up from? Gurinder, or the U.K. Govt. Authorities?
RSSB was fined a very large Sum, after being found guilty in Court, I read some where. Many Seva Donation boxes will need to be filled to runnng over to pay the fine.

Was it a cover up?
They fixed the problem, as soon as it came to their attention. They pleaded guilty without contest.
But haters gotta hate.

Dungeness, why are you posting your comment 2 and even 3 times, gotta get your compute r fixed
Why do you assume it’s my computer… no, I’m only posting it once.
It may be browser related so I’m ditching Chrome temporarily.
Typepad however should fix its “feature” wherever the blame falls.
It’d be easy to digitally digest posts and toss out duplicates.

Dungeness has a studdering handicap. Either that, of she/he hiccups the second the “send” icon is pressed on the Device it is sent from. Ironically, two long time posters posting at RSS , both usiing pseudo Avatars, ( very possibly the same poster using two different Avatars ) who have been hiding in their RAT holes for years and years at RSS, also have had their posts duplicated, but mostly triplicated the last 6 months to a year. So the Stuttering problem is caused by tne Device the post is sent from, by most likely, the same RAT, ……..not the problem of this site or at Yahoo. I have all posts from RSS co g to y Yahoo Email , and triple posts from this poster are in my msil box e ery time . I now have them directed to my Spam file.

Testing 4/10/2018….

@ Jim brother – I totally agree with your post – but I hate seeing anyone get hurt or killed. Life is unfair.
Yes I did sign it Vijay as that is my middle name.
Regards
A

Hi Jim
Yes there has been the appearance of racism in Madame Blavatsky and her disciple, Alice Baley’s, writings.
They made comments about the different “races”, but at the same time acknowledged the primacy of the soul over the containers.
Today at recognize this as just a shorthand people used back then, innocent, but reflective of culturally imprinted racism. The most innocent comments, made in ignorance, can lead to violence and harm. They key guide to helping us avoid repeating that mistake is the Golden Rule…. Would I like that said about me?
I’m Jewish by birth the way, but an anti – zionist in orientation. The true Zoom is that Holy City atop that Holy Mountain that traditionally has been called the New Israel in the Bible, but which we know to be Sach Kand, the holy mountain where even the animals are all vegetarian, and where the lion lay with the lamb.

Oops spell check… The true Zion….. But the true Zoom is Master’s sense of humor, not mine…

@Jim
I apologize if you felt I smeared you as a racist. However, the
gratuitous mention of Jews in citing Lane’s site and then again
in remarking on Blatsky in the next sentence were reminiscent
of racist tropes. To me anyway…
I respect your desire to see the real identities of posters too.
But after a career in software and seeing the scale of data
mining and assaults on privacy, I choose to remain anonymous.
As I mentioned, I think the words we use and attitudes we reveal
in our posts speak for themselves.

To Dungeness, ….apology accepted. I have quite a few good Jewish friends as Facebook friends. But I don’t hold them any dearer than my Indian, Filipino, African, British, Aussie, Croation, Swedish, Danish, French, Scotish, Irish, Natve Ametcan Indian, Mexican, Brazilian, Columbian, Vietnamese, Canadian, and many other mxed Race friends on my Facebook friends list. In fact, I am 1/4 Micmac Canadian Indian , 1/4 French, 1/4 Scot, and 1/4 English. I have worked in the trenches in many Industrial factories with just about every Race on the planet, as well as having served in the USAF with them. I guarantee, ANY Recruit in ANY Military Boot Camp sheds every last trace of Racism carried there before they leave, and it follows thru life. In fact, as far as Jews are concerned, since I mentioned Lane’s site, there are some Jews posting there who are admitted Atheists who reveal their real Names, and wear their Jewishness on there sleeves. I could, and would, even name names,….but you have to reveal yours first! I read some of your past posts, and can’t really recognise your style of writting posted at RSS. So, if you do post over there using another pseudo Avatar, you do an expert job of conceiling your identity. Actually, I think you are a very great writer, but other than your comments about RSSB and metaphysical comments, nothing else grabs my interests. But after posting at RSS off and on for years when it was an absolute Fight Club with Zero moderation and Zero rules,…..well, I, with others, took some pretty bad beatngs. So, forgive my Battle stress and fight or flight impulses from over there.
To Arjuna,…..Thanks Arjuna Vijay Dev. Nice to know I have at least one RSSB Brother that is a Soldier watching my back that also isn’t a Fundamentalist Sant Mat Zombie. Just keep the Baby, and dscard the dirty bath water. If you keep meditating, and seeking your own Master within, you already possess the Bullets , and no longer need the Gun. The Gun was fired the very moment you asked to be initiated, and the Bullets hit your target when you were initiated. Your wounds will never heal! Your Sach Khand bound! No turning back.
To Spencer,…..I have other Jewish friends that are not Zionists as well. In fact, Dr. Richard Ruquest, Ph.D. , who I introduced to Sant Mat is one. I have other Anonymous ones as well, one an Elder Brother Charan Initiate living in Israel right now , who is one of my Facebook friends.
As far as HPB is concerned, regardless of her comments about Jews, she has contributed much to Sant Mat even, as she was rumored to have even visted the Agra Parent Soami Bagh group during her years in India. If you don’t belive me, Google and read her little Book, “ The Voice of Silence” , which can be found as a free pdf if you search. She surely must have conversed with a Sant Mat person in her travels.
Regards,
Jim Sutherland

@ Jim – that is the cooliest thing I have ever had anyone say about me. I’d watch your back anyway!
I hate bullshit and all I wanted in my
Life was truth.
Weird isn’t it – what wats one has to go through to get at truth.
I want to say something as you have the bandwidth to understand this even more than I ever could. I posted that bbc link about Haynes not as a hater more so that people just don’t care. We should all watch each other’s back. That’s being human. Forget all the rest and care.
I just hope Gurinder is reading this – you start a movement when you claim to know Him. It’s very unfair to kick the ones who seek love and knowledge whilst keeps my A holes near you under the guise that they are more ill than moi. That’s a crock of shit. You see the issue is that you lose the good ones!
@ back at Jim – speak soon Captain and here is to journey for the truth and God.

Lol let me rewrite the statement above below again:
I meant “the” A holes and not “my”.
Peace out

Hi Jim
You wrote
“she has contributed much to Sant Mat even”
I don’t think so.
Hidden Masters living in Himalayan caves communicating through the spirit to disciples they never met?
I don’t buy it.

If anything Blavatsky’s obsession with the racial development of the Aryans as a “root race” influenced Adolph Hitler who then insisted Jews were not one of the “root race”. Her descriptions of the development of the race through specialized breeding became Eugenics to Adolph Hitler.
Something that started as largely innocent, imaginative, well intended and only mildly fraudulent communicated something unintended. If one person can invent a history and future for humanity, claiming divine inspiration, so can another.

Hi Spencer,….I don’t want to get in to any more Hitler/Jews debates. It went on for months at Radhasoami studies. It didn’t take long for the Jews, many of them Sant Mat Initiates, to come out to try and Silence ANY dscussion about WWII and the accuracy of is taught in the History books.They cursed him, used fowl language against him, and called him many terrible names. If you are really interested in that subject, one of our Brother Charan Brothers, discussing Revision History of the Holocaust, was brutally disrespected, slandered, and finally blocked from posting there altogether. He always posted as mysticbumwipe, should you be interested in running a search on RSS to read the debates. He was outnumbered, but never convinced he was wrong. I don’t want to discuss the issue again, other than to say, some one once asked Bumwipe why he used that Avatar. Dome one who knew Bumwipe personally, confessed that he had spent time in Calcutta working in Hospice with the dying in Mother Theresa’s Mission, and cleaning butts from soiled diapers by dying people was a daily chore.
Those chores were what formd his Avatar at RSS.

Hi Jim
Each of us has our own history.
HPB doesn’t appeal to me.
Hitler is a controversial figure. And if most of your relatives had been murdered as the result of Hitler’s aggresion you would be understandably intolerant to ignorance.

If radio waves can transmit wireless internet, Why can’t Himalayan masters communicate with people by intuitive divine inspiration ???

Vinny writes,…”If radio waves can transmit wireless internet, Why can’t Himalayan masters communicate with people by intuitive divine inspiration ???”
Me: Bingo!! Radiant Form Spirits in action. Even thoughts have enought material content to travel accross Continents hitting their targets. Remote Viewing is one example.
Thoughts sent by people specifically to others do not necessarily need a physical or Astral body to be seen by who ever the message is directed at.
I will share this personal story as an example, that will always remain one of my little miracles of Synchronicity that keeps my Faith alive.
I have an Uncle ( who is still alive in his mid 80s ) who is an Ordained Baptist Minister. As long as I remember, from Childhood, he has always been a Bible Thumping Preacher. I avoided him like a Plague, as I was a Catholic who believed only Catholics had tickets to Heaven ( until I entered Boot Camp in the Air Force at 17!! ) then, I knrw we were ALL going to Hell.
I rarely seen or heard from that Uncle again after age 15, and only heard about him from my father, who was also a Catholic who avoided his Brother because he didn’t want to get Bible Thumped. Also, my uncle workd in Immigration for the U.S. Govt. for his day Job, so he lived 1000 miles away.
Fast forward to 1977, when I was age 35. I had my Christian “ Born Again” Experience while alone in a Hotel Room in PA., and a month later, made arrangements to be Baptised at a local Church in Conn. where I was living at that time. ( that was 41 years ago, so many changes of beliefs since then)
My Parents lived 600 miles away, and I only visited them once a year with my wife and two children. But I did write them a letter every couple of weeks and talk to them on the phone once a month,
I began thinking about my Baptist Minister Uncle, and was desiring to share my Christian Born Agsin Experience with him, but I had lost contact with him years ago and didn’t know where he lived.
I wanted to write him a letter to share my Experience wiith him, but never had his Address.so, I wrote a letter to my Father asking him to send me the Address of my Uncle if he knew it. I lived in a Rural country area where our private Mail Boxes were at the Street in front of our houses, where the Mail Carriers delivered our Mail each day and picked up out going Mail.
OK. Here it comes!!
I put my letter to my Father in my Mail Box asking for my Uncle’s Address. An hour later, the Mail Carrier came, took my letter, and delivered my new Mail.
I went to get my new Mail, brought it in the house, and in the bundle of mail, there was a letter from my Baptist Uncle!!!
I opened the letter as my heart was thumping, and read it. He said he and my Aunt were going to be in my area for a meeting, and he asked if he could visit me and take my wife and I out to dinner. He gave me the Date, and guess what? The date was the day before I was scheduled to get Baptised in Church!
I quickly telephoned my Uncle, and almost choked out my Born Again story. I invited him to stay at my house the night before my Baptism, and attend the event with me. He accepted, of course, and said to ask the Minister who was to Baptise me if my Uncle could participate. I did, and to make a long story short, my Uncle ended up baptising me in the Church Baptisimal in front of the Congregation that Sunday, and I was the only one Baptised that day! Plus, that Church was not even a Baptist Church. It was an Adventist Church.
So, these little miricles don’t only happen among Radhasoami Satsangis. They happen every day, as thoughts materialize, and spirits visit as Messengers all doing their appointed Missions in the Spirt Planes from Pind to Radhasoami .

–
Correct Jim
even the lowest chakras
can produce
–
777

Hi Vinny
Your wrote
“If radio waves can transmit wireless internet, Why can’t Himalayan masters communicate with people by intuitive divine inspiration ???”
Yes it can happen, but unlikely for a couple of reasons :
1. If a true Master wishes to convey a message or impart a teaching they use the natural method, live contact. No real Master hides from anyone.
2. Internal inspiration always comes through the filter of mind and desire, and mostly that’s our imagination.
3.to help us learn to use those internal instruments of perception requires both, so that we lean to see beyond imagination and conditioning with the unassailable fact of our a Master’s words.
3.the fact that so many people don’t want live correction and feedback is precisely why they prefer only “inner” contact, but that also leaves imagination unbridled.
4. Most of what we believe to be internal truth, without any outer correction from a living, physical Master, is imagination and invention.

@ Spencer – off course you can influence others with out contact.
Lol you are funny sometimes

Spencer,
You say “so that we learn to see beyond imagination and conditioning with the unassailable fact of our a Master’s words” and “Most of what we believe to be internal truth, without any outer correction from a living, physical Master, is imagination and invention”.
Sounds like programming to me. What you believe in, such as the power of a ‘Master’ will produce those inner experiences. How do you know its not imagination and invention.
I have had strange experiences with telepathy, which came so naturally it amazed me, that I can converse with other beings so easily. Still today do not know who they were and why they made contact. I do think that it could be imagination, but why would I imagine a series of events which totally surprised me. I was told some very strange things that I would not have thought possible. The most interesting part was that I would one day meet my ‘replicas’, not a word I would use.
I asked ‘what about the Master?’ and there was just a blank silent reaction. So for me, this is a very strange world and we really don’t know whats going on behind the scenes. I think we have experiences when astral travelling and our memories are then wiped.
Life to me, just seems like a game. We have our individual programs running in our brain and life is illusionary and we probably will only find out the truth after death, and hopefully that will be our own inner truth not something we have learned from others.

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
“off course you can influence others with out contact.”
Yes it can be done. Probably more often than we know, but at the base of it the puppet master we fear or glorify is our own self lifetimes ago acting in sheer ignorance. But entirely without our consent today. That’s the problem with the past. It just doesn’t listen or respond well. It is a terrible slave master and we have no voice in the matter.
And if any other power does so today then it does so without our consent. But is that even possible in a realm of karma?
If we feel we have one jailor it is our own subconscious, and our sense that we are our own liberators, or that some incorporeal guardian angel or spirit guide or hidden master is our salvation, these are the masks of Thanatos, our own dark subconscious.
My point was just that I don’t believe that a true Master works that way without some physical corroboration through their presence.
I don’t think they invade our personal space without our consent and even our earnest and repeated request, often over many decades if not lifetimes. Which makes them entirely different from Joseph Smith, Djwal Khul, Ruby Qanz and the rest. As far as I’m concerned these are entirely imaginary creations, the crayon drawings of people who have no idea of the work and actual dynamics involved in moving past mind to actual direct witness of reality. And those who have had such experience of reality then are confronted and befriend such inner demons and all progress stops in this lifetime. The flesh is no good for anything and at that point awaits the compost heap and must wait for another year altogether to make any more progress.
And if not, they are worse than imaginary, violators of our right to privacy and self determination. But I tend to think that in 99% of the cases it is the former.
Hi Jen!
Please see above.

Spencer, what is a “true” Master? Maybe people are following someone who is pretending to be some kind of saviour or guide and others are following a mythical being called Jesus. Some people believe in extra terrestrials and inter dimensional beings. Maybe there is no god and no devil, call them what you may. These are just beliefs.
Jurgen Ziewe and his multi dimensional experiences, they are interesting but its still his experiences and I don’t grasp onto them like they are real. What is really, real, reality? It seems to me that this life is just some kind of game although it seems very real whilst in this physical form here on this planet.
Its all a mystery and I am enjoying the ride. Whatever my mind throws up at me I simply accept as an interesting experience. No need to believe in anything, even karma, it just is what it is.

Hi Jen
You ask
“What is a true Master?”
And then you provide the answer you know..
“Maybe people are following someone who is pretending to be some kind of saviour or guide and others are following a mythical being called Jesus.”
In the heart of all that is disappointing, is opportunity.
In the midst of loss of faith, the source of faith.
The very wind that extinguishes a tiny flame, grows a larger flame…
Into an inferno…
Where you see so many fakes, so many copies, there in the midst, the one who knows they are meant for more, is now convinced, with each copy, of the original. And pursues with singular prejudice that.
And the one they dismissed…. The take a closer look, because the original is disguised as a copy.

Spencer, you said you have been listeniing to Ishwar Puri Youtube talks, and have about 2/3 to go? I am wondering if you see many differences from his teachings from Charan and Gurinder’s, considering all 3 of them are Disciples of Sawan Singh.
The way Ishwar is traveling, still at 91 and giving Satsangs all over, I can’t even keep up with his Youtube postings, let alone where he is from one week to the other.
He has been in Davis, California a month ago, with 5 youtube talks, then Newport Beach with another 5, then the recent Bhandar with another 5 not all posted yet, with several in between!!
He said he no longer meditates and has done enough meditation in his life. He mentions 5 minute meditations when he tells his listeners that love and devotion replaces meditation. Do you buy that?
I don’t think any Newbie who is not doing daily deep mediation will ever understand what he is trying to teach, so they won’t believe him or his stories, unless they have experienced what he says about flying in the Astral Realm, and other stuff he says.
Reading books or listening to other’s stories with out meditation and trying to go deeper, and deeper, and deeper, within, will never deliver the place a true seeker is seeing.
How ever, the Conundrum is, as I read some one say, is, we human Seekers are lke Dolls made of salt who dive in to the Ocean looking for the Treasure on the bottom. But we dissolve before we ever reach the bottom with out ever finding the Treasure!
Advaitists think We become that Treasure.
I feel like a Salt Doll listening to Ishwar Puri on Youtube!

_
So, . . his “initiation” at between 5 / 10 years old
Yes Sawan gave certain children One or Two words to repeat
Nothing above pinda, HE said
Abolishing the true successor
Saying that thoughts give karma , which is terrible and false
( he might have changed this opinion )
But like Brian, . . Lekh Puri’s son has a tiny role to play
We all have
777
Nobody can prove his Mastership
The only (subjective) proof is Sound , Light and Simran in Orgasm above the eyes
Next there are serendipities without an end
Sometimes objective
Our Creator did a Magnificent Job amongst a zillion, ALL far above any IQ
–
–

777, …..yes, he said he was initiated at 9 years old. He also said recently, that before he was initiated, he was a Skeptic who didn’t believe the Sant Mat his parents was practicing, and even after initiation, he remained a Skeptic. He said he tried all the other Yoga methods, including PranaYama Kundalini Yogi Bhajun’s techniques. Then, some where along the line, he decided that Technique he got from Sawan Singh at 9 years old was the best. The greatest mystery is when Sawan told him to start initiating for him, to continue the East to West Spiritual axes shift from India to the U.S. All I can say is, we Charan Singh Initiates should be greatful we seized he Widow of Opportunity while it was open!

Hi jim
You asked
“I am wondering if you see many differences from his teachings from Charan and Gurinder’s, considering all 3 of them are Disciples of Sawan Singh.”
Nothing of consequence. I think Ishwar is doing a good job. It’s a matter of adaptation.
Gurindar is Charan’s disciple, and successor, … Is that what you meant?
We don’t earn the bliss. For me meditation is just a necessity to function, and also the most fabulous luxury. It was a gift to me from my Master.
God said “I’ll give you three hours a day of personal, intimate attention and love..”
I said “YES”!
It’s the deal of the millennium, of all time.
“What’s the catch?”
And God answered, “You have to give me all your worries.”
It’s too good to be true I replied.
But its turned out to be true.
Who knew?

Again Spencer : Wow, . . . Magnificient
and Fun
and Jim , somewhat spiced with the buttt . . °°° Great Path
777
Ah Yes Arjuna : We both here see Gurinder Tooo
All the time

@ 777 ( I wonder you are)
Well lucky you for seeing Gurinder – He forgot me or never knew who I am.
Not sure I should be answering to an entity who does not reveal it’s name!

@Jim,
He said he no longer meditates and has done enough meditation in his life. He mentions 5 minute meditations when he tells his listeners that love and devotion replaces meditation. Do you buy that?
Hi Jim, Ishwar’s said meditation, in its initial stages, is for the
mind. But only love and devotion pull you up. Even simran is discarded
at some point. I believe other RSSB masters echo that exactly.
BTW, Gurinder is a disciple of Charan Singh 🙂
@777,
Saying that thoughts give karma , which is terrible and false
He’s explained that every thought and intention initiates a karmic
chain however minor.

To Dungeness,…..
We who post here are all open to admitting if, and when, and by which Master we were initiated. I don’t remember seeing you mention it, if you did.
Are you a Radhasoami Initiate? ( your real name does not need to be disclosed to answer that question. )
Your answer will help me, at least, to know how to respond to your comments, such as, “ Gurinder is Charan’s Desciple. Well I know that, but my comment about him, Charan and Ishwar being all Desciples of Sawan was correct. Actually, ALL Initiates from RSSB and Ruhani lineages are distant Desciples of Sawan Singh.
Have you read “ Spiritual Gems” ?
Reading some of your prior posts, you appear to be some what of a Skeptic. So,……..
are you with us Believers, or against us, and with the Atheists and Exers?
I thnk these are all fair questions, would you agree?

Are you a Radhasoami Initiate?
Yes, Long time initiate of Charan Singh.
Have you read “ Spiritual Gems” Yes

“I am wondering if you see many differences from his teachings from Charan and Gurinder’s, considering all 3 of them are Disciples of Sawan Singh.”
Here’s a short audio tape of Ishwar speaking about
Jagat and Charan Singh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQB3QqeI9Xk

Hi Dungeness.
Thank you so much for the link!
What a sheer pleasure to hear Ishwar’s stories about Jagat Singh and Charan Singh. Miraculous. I could listen to Ishwar all day.

@ Jim – you do appear to read people quite well. I’m impressed – you probably know more about people than you write.
Impressive – you are the only one who was able to give me a solid answer(s).
The rest I used to meet at Haynes – nothing new under the sun there. Bar that they were better than me and I was just an outcast,
God – pardon the pun we need an Edward Snowden moment there lol.
Yours sincerely
A

To Arjuna,..,I always try to enter the person I am trying to communicate with, before I make any assumptions about where they are having pain. Spiritually, we all should be able to do this. i. e. Walk in the ofher’s shoes or sandals, only after finding out first, if they even have feet to put shoes on!
Being old, and well traveled, also helps. I have traveled to 65 different countries, visiting their cities and Cultures, in the last 6 years since I retired. I leave for Tibet and China in a couple of weeks, and will visit another six new countries in Sept.
I have found that once we remove Politics and religion from where ever I visit, we are pretty much all the same, with same desires, and common human emotions. I am no more special than any other human any where else on the planet. But having served as a Christian Pastor in my 40s, in addtion to my day job, I had the opportunity to counsel many people, and have had a more closer look at how humans love, hate, cheat, fight, kill, steal, rape, become bigots and racists, ….all the while as they were only looking at other’s sins while ignoring their own festering cancers.
I have prayed with many individuals, sick, and dying with cancer, certain they would be healed. Most of them died!
The only two things I have learned in my 76 years, is, that there IS a God, and that I am not Him!
I don’t envy those who either think they are God, or those who think they have found some one else that is.
We are all on the same Journey of souls.
New miracles are happening in this world every second, even as you read this.
Many still have your Name on them, but you must stay alive to receive and witness them. You are the Bull’s Eye for ONLY the Silver Bullets shot at you. Live well, live healthy, live long, and receive every last one of them before you die.
RS,
Jim

@ Spencer – I read your response and can only say thank you. Words cannot convey the depth of what I read and how it touched me.
I have spent most of my life looking for answers – first in family, and then in friends, places and then in art. I love Leonardo Davinci’s work – I think even Gurinder said “he was a master in his own right”. That he was.
I digress – what I am trying to say I lost my parents whilst very young and did not really have a father figure to help me. I tried finding that at Haynes and realised that most there had families and were successful people but where even more lost than me.
In 2005 Gurinder said at Haynes that the Lord gives you family etc so that you may learn to love. It’s a beautiful statement but it was also insensitive as people without family would be left feeling so alone. I stopped going as his attention was on people who were there to progress in status or where famous in two cases.
Have you seen the original Ben Hur movie where Christ gives Charlton Heston water when he is enslaved and has fallen on to the grounds against the wishes of the Romans? That seen makes me cry as that is how I imagine God in human form to be like to His children. I did not sense that- in fact I sensed coldness and the constant looks of trying to suss me out. Hope you understand what I mean by this. And if anyone states we see people as mirrors – I will walk away as they are bores and A holes who in the vast majority of cases do not understand that some of us just seek affection and love.
You are interesting Jim and in return I think you have nailed it! Please avoid the dotards (word Kim of North Korea) used to describe Trump – as they are only trying to outwit you with mind.
Also I find the talk of sex disgusting – those who talk about it ain’t getting it or have never had it! So why even make references to sex? I heard a lot about that subject in my time with the blessed souls. Isn’t sex the first demon to be conquered before even attempting contact with God?
Hey I could write for ever – think this has helped me in getting things of my chest.
I wish you and all the bloggers on here well.

Dear Brothers & Sisters,
All comparisons to the past masters are futile as living masters keep change the mode of operation keeping in mind the needs of the present times. No matter how great the past masters were, they cannot initiate you and take you back to SachKhand. For those who are looking for someone who can ferry you across the ocean; the greatest master alive at the present moment on this planet is Gurinder Singh. Anyone who raises his consciousness to the thousand petaled lotus would witness his grandeur and would be ready to bow down countless number of times witnessing his greatness. Just for once taste the elixir by witnessing his radiant form. I speak with authority because of the personal experiences and anyone can validate for themselves by vacating the physical body till the eye level during meditation.
Wishing love and happiness!

777 writes,……”and Jim , somewhat spiced with the buttt . . °°° Great Path
777
Ah Yes Arjuna : We both here see Gurinder Tooo
All the time”
Me: what is the significance of the 777 you use for your Avatar? Does your real Name cause you to be embarrassed about any thing, or are you hiding from the Law, Tax Collectors, or what or from who? Alimony, child support, ??? Bullies?
At the ripe old age of 81, and being a long time Charan Singh Initiate, why are you still hiding behind a Pseudo Avatar? Have you led a Satsangi life style that you are ashamed of? Just wondering, because at 81, I am wondering who, or what you are still hiding from.
By seeng Gurinder Singh inside, as you state, why do you think that makes him any more special than any other disincarnated entities seen in tne Astral Plane that are either out of body dreaming, while asleep and soul traveling, or during meditation when their Astral body takes a cruise around the Astral Plain? If Gurinder was giving you any kind of specific information, pertinent to your personal needs, or leading you thru the Inner Regions, and introducing you to Anami Purush, than I can see why you and others who see him inside would elevate his physical status outside. Other wise, he is just another disincarnated entity.
I see disincarnated entities inside often. Some I know, most of them, I can’t ever remember knowing. I just saw and had a conversation with my Brother In Law several mornings ago, during my meditation. I was about 90 minutes in, and we were having a conversation about Electronic devices. I was advising him. He was rebutting my advice, as he always did, when he was alive. But that that showed me, is, he has not yet reincarnated by still being in the Astral Plain still able to communicate. Other wise, his form would have only been lingering there, silently as most Astral forms met there do.
So, when you meet Gurinder inside, does he do any thing special for you, or reveal any secrets to you, or make you feel sad to leave him there, to return to your 81 year old body?
Come on 777, come out of hiding and reveal your real name, and explain why Gurinder Singh is any different than any of the other spirits appearing in the Astral Plain as Allen Kardac wrote anout in his Book, “ The Spirit’s Book.” By the way, Allen Kardac was your Countryman, living in France.
Plane answers please. Not mystical riddles that need decipering by Astrologers.

http://www.allankardec.com/Allan_Kardec/Le_livre_des_esprits/lesp_us.pdf
Table of Contents are at tne end of the Book.

@ Jim – I sometimes dream of Gurinder but he looks different – if you know what I mean.
Mehta does that mean

Spirits explaining how they interact with each other in the Astral Plane, both during sleep, and after death of the physical bodies. These questions were asked by Allan Kardac to Spirit Mediums , many, who corraborated the answers. The term, “ Astral Plane” had not yet been coined by Theosophy, and was unknown by Kardac when he wrote The Spirits Book. Here are some of the answers from the Book regarding seeing disincarnated entity spirits. My conjecture is, the same spiritual mechanics applies to seeing the radiant forms of Gurinder and Charan, or any Master, inside. It also answers Lane’s “ Chandian effect” of how Fakir Chand’s Astral body appeared to his followers with out him even knowing it happened wnile he was either asleep or in meditation.
“
400. Does the incarnated spirit reside willingly in his corporeal envelope ?
“You might as well ask whether a prisoner willingly remains locked up in prison. The incarnated spirit aspires incessantly after his deliverance; and the grosser his envelope, the more desirous is be to be rid of it.”
401. Does the soul take rest, like tile body, during sleep?
“No; a spirit is never inactive. The bonds which unite him to the body are relaxed during sleep; and as the body does not then need his presence, he travels through space, and enters into more direct relation with other spirits.”
402. How can we ascertain the fact of a spirit’s liberty during sleep?
“By dreams. Be very sure that, when his body is asleep, a spirit enjoys the use of faculties of which he is unconscious while his body is awake. He remembers the past, and sometimes foresees the future: he acquires more power, and is able to enter into communication with other spirits, either in this world or in some other.
“You often say, ‘I have had a strange dream, a frightful dream, without any likeness to reality’ You are mistaken in thinking it to be so; for it is often a reminiscence of places and things which you have seen in the past, or a foresight of those which you will see in another existence, or in this one at some future time. The body being torpid, the spirit tries to break his chain, and seeks, in the past or in the future, for the means of doing so.
“Poor human beings! how little do you know of the commonest phenomena of your life! You fancy yourselves to be very learned, and you are puzzled by the most ordinary things. To questions that any child might ask, ‘What do we do when we are asleep?’ ‘What are dreams?’ you are incapable of replying.
“Sleep effects a partial freeing of the soul from the body. When you sleep, your spirit is, for the time being, in the state in which you will be after your death. The spirits who at death are promptly freed from matter are those who, during their life, have had what may be called intelligent sleep. Such persons, when they sleep, regain the society of other spirits superior to themselves. They go about with them, conversing with them, and gaining instruction from them; they even work, in the spirit-world, at undertakings which, on dying, they find already begun or completed. From this you see how little death should be dreaded, since, according to the saying of St. Paul, you ‘die daily.’
“What we have just stated refers to spirits of an elevated degree of advancement. As for those of the common mass of men, who, after their death, remain for long hours in the state of confusion and uncertainty of which you have been told by such, they go, during sleep, into worlds of lower rank than the earth, to which they are drawn back by old affections, or by the attraction of pleasures still baser than those to which they are addicted in your world; visits in which they gather ideas still viler, more ignoble, and more mischievous than those which they had professed during their waking hours. And that which engenders sympathy in the earthly life is nothing else than the fact that you feel yourselves, on waking, affectionately attracted towards those with whom you have passed eight or nine hours of happiness or pleasure. On the other hand, the explanation of the invincible antipathies you sometimes feel for certain persons is also to be found in the intuitive knowledge you have thus acquired of the fact that those persons have another conscience than yours, because you know them without having previously seen them with your bodily eyes. It is this same fact, moreover, that explains the indifference of some people for others; they do not care to make new friends, because they know that they have others by whom they are loved and cherished. In a word, sleep has more influence than you think upon your life.
“Through the effects of sleep, incarnated spirits are always in connection with the spirit- world; and it is in consideration of this fact that spirits of a higher order consent, without much re-
Sent from my i Pad — Jim Sutherland

In sleep, a person goes lower than waking consciousness, during waking the mind exhausts the energy of spirit gained through partial contact with shabd/ etheric/atomic energy due to instability of mind, random thoughts, fears-phobias. The people seen during sleep are impressions on subconscious mind playing like movie. Sleep can be compared to narcotics taken by madman to counter his madness.

Wow Vinny >>> yeees
–
Jim
All very correct Jim
from the tax collector ( who at final point was a vegetarian )
up to a shameful life
But it’s not my reason for anonymity
Many satsangis with special serendipities in their life and divulging that
came for the ‘fall’ – people starting to flatter them
up to organising their own RSS movement
next saying : My disciples did put me on this throne
This goes very very well with AUGUSTIN and the description of ever present presence of Sant Sat Gurus
Yes , thanks to anonymity, during those 5 years perhaps here @brians
I was able to give some details, about little and giant happenings
One particular about How was manifesting Charan to me
at a gathering in Wiesbaden, so NOT in meditation and I think a lot of silent Satsangis had the same
A river of diamonds coming out of his Head , going not 360 ° but in all possible 3D directions
and touching all molecules (matter) which changed in radient Gold
Next these “molecules” started to radiate themselves, seeing all satsangis present
as if they were lightened on, In fact that was the case
Another occasion in Dehli during a one-meter rain, everywhere around He changed in a Lion
goose bumps now –
like these images in India of Shiva with FOUR Heads, , but then . . 4 Lion heads
manifesting a gracefull power and the rain shunned the Satsang place
That tremendous Power : I cannot describe
Some , reading this will understand
NOW, ALL THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INNER MANIFESTATIONS
IN MEDITATION
We cannot even find words !
–
In the beginning I had doubt about Gurinder
until I got the same external and later internal manifestations concerning Him
So, ? ?
Resolved !
They are always smiling ( all Masters from Tulsi Sahib on )
all in their own special way
For more : I always wrote about these things
AUGUSTIN is so right
In side :
I never did in this life ,what you call astral travelling. Only this frightening experience I told about here and
that was one year before i heard of masters?
one
I am ( inside) so rapidly “hypnotized” by the splendor of the Sound
which I know . . . is HIM , The Master
Next :
The 5 words : They are not different, . . they really contain all that is
If you think ‘I have nothing’, no progress . . do the 5 words, 24/7 – it will amaze you
I started like that , now seems 100 years ago,
. . I thought : These Vows : is nice but I cannot, . . but repeating 24/7 . . . 
that one every stupid can !
So , this one I did reasonably good
The Darshan :
This contains also the same Manifestation, as I described above , but in an whole new ballGame
I can only say . . without proper preparation the body would stop functioning immediately
Therfore Charan said it all the time : Meditation : He knew it prepares us, you cannot do it enough
Our thoughts stop, . . making any later description impossible- It’s like being a witness
You do these words and they change in The Love of the Almighty Creator, . . without hate, . . without fear . . (JapJi)
You hear the sweetsweet sweeter Sound ( which every 7 chakra entity 
of compassion in the universes can hear
and it becomes pure Love
You “see” HIM , The beloved Master who gave you all that
and He shows you yourinnermost being which is also great Love
NEXT ALL FOUR MELT TOGETHER and is what it always was LOVE
Nobody Ever can understand or explain, ONE CAN ONLY “BE” THAT
and Yes :
Charan Maharaji : It ever Grows
and yes :
Seth Shiv Dayal : Nobody is as dirty as I am,
me :
between :
SAME; plus long way to go & WOW . . .
777
–

Conquering lust is 99.99% spirituality, rest 0.01% is complimentary.

Ha ha
It cannot be conquered
Can only be replaced by another sweeter Lust
777

777 wtites,….”Many satsangis with special serendipities in their life and divulging that
came for the ‘fall’ – people starting to flatter them
up to organising their own RSS movement”
Me: Are you referring to Ishwar Puri here?
Or, are you insinuating that if you reveal your real Name and Identity, you will be appointed as the Perfect Living Master of The Church of The Churchless, and all the Exers here who have had no inner experiences, or seen Charan or Gurinder’s radiant forms , will ask you for Initiation, with Brian in the front of the line? If Brian leads the way, they might all follow, including Mike Williams and David Lane!

777 writes about Charan,,,.”Another occasion in Dehli during a one-meter rain, everywhere around He changed in a Lion
goose bumps now –
like these images in India of Shiva with FOUR Heads, , but then . . 4 Lion heads”
Me: Singh translates as Lion. So he morphed in to 4 Sikh Singhs. RSSB lineage.
Maybe past lives as Lions.

Kindly watch this video with English translation, the Saint was offered 25 acres of land by his grandfather to do farming but he refused & did manual labor in Rajasthan to stay in the peaceful area. Video filmed at Boston Airport in 2010.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DJ-3rqBc3c

Why do people label others. Obviously some people do give themselves a label such as satsangi, atheist, agnostic. What annoys me is that some people label others such as calling them Exers and judge them as having had no inner experiences. Its also interesting to see that everyone has an ego even those still following RSSB, still its better than pretending to be humble. Its ridiculous that having an ego is one of the deadly sins according to Sant Mat. It shows how much some religions want to make the masses humble so that they can be controlled.
There is a middle road that we can choose, in not belonging to any sect or group, in just being unknowing, living in the moment, experiencing our physical life as well as inner experiences and questioning everything.
Albert Einstein quote: A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?

@ Jen – I agree with you.
I think religion and sant mat does not reduce egos.
I think God needs to go back to the drawing board to see how He can extract the marked ones better.
There are a lot of decent people seeking answers who are simply walking away,
Best regards
A

Arjuna :
I think religion and sant mat does not reduce egos.
SHABD does, . . where-ever it’s found
777
Oh Yes , the drawing board wow I like it
Every nano quark happening is OK

Hi Jen
You wrote, “Why do people label others.”
Isn’t that a label?
Satsangis contain the full span of personalities. Charan singh said that sometimes we find kinder people outside the sangat.
If you accept that they are all human beings at various stages of development, it makes things much more understandable. Like students in college, there are the first year students, the second year, etc. Proportionately, the graduate students are fewer in number. Many of these don’t come to Satsang.
The ego of Satsangis is a minor issue. It’s a challenge, and we can accept it as our teacher, when we see ourselves react with pride and anger to the ego insults of others.
You can’t feel any insult when you have no ego to insult. And then, there is no persona, which is built on ego, to judge anyone else.
When you feel insulted, be thankful. It’s a great cleanser that leaves one more receptive to shabd, if you take it that way. All advanced Satsangis have had to learn this lesson.
If the Master slights or insults you, that is all love.
As I wrote earlier, a little wind can extinguish a small flame, but a great flame grows even larger.
As 777 wrote, exposure to Shabd changes everything. The Holy Spirit silences us, changes us.
The babies cry. But when they drink from their mother’s best, they are happy and quiet. And they know Mother is there taking God care of them. Exposure to Shabd every day alters who we are. The joy is immediate and wonderful. But it’s effect on our personality can be a very gradual process. Yet, nothing else can compare to the Holy Spirit. In some ways, there is no real progress without it.
Once you have it, like a rich person of great wealth, then the pettiness of others means nothing, and we see our negative reaction to others’ ego as a finger pointing back to our own.

Hi Vinny!
A great teacher!
“We don’t have to reform others. We have to reform our own self.”
Perfect.

Hi Vinny
I meant to say first, thanks for the video link.

Spencer, more preaching from you, blah de blah de blah… lol
Just watched a youtube that is more on my wavelength than your holy spirit, god and ego lecturing.
……
Jim, I think you will like this, its similar to the multidimensional experiences that Jurgen Ziewe has written about.
Arjuna, hope you will give this video a try it has some very interesting theories…
Is Our Universe Someone Else’s Computer Simulation?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FbD_ojWWXw
Published on Mar 29, 2018
Some people in the human abduction syndrome have reported that E.T.s describe our universe as a 3-D hologram projected from another dimension by a Super Intelligence.
Quantum computer engineers and astrophysicists ask in scientific papers: “Are We Living in a Computer Simulation Universe?” On April 5, 2016, the Hayden Planetarium in New York hosted a debate on the question “Is the Universe A Simulation?”
One of the panelists, James Gates, Ph.D., a theoretical physicist at the Univ. of Maryland said: “If the simulation hypothesis is valid, then we open the door to eternal life and resurrection and things that formally have been discussed in the realm of religion.”

Jen, I am familiar with Linda Moultan Howe. I have monitored her since she first appeared on the scene doing her field research and lecturing about Cattle mutilation happening all over the country. Cattle mutilation and Crop Circles are both mysteries that surely insinuate Alien intervention. I have been interested in Aliens and UFO research long before I ever got involved with Sant Mat or even Christianity. MUFON is an Alien Religeos group that have monthly meetings all over the U.S. Lecturing about Aliens and UFOs. Also, the late Zacharia Sitchen’s Earth Chronicle Books starting with “ The Twelth Planet” csught my interest long ago, and I have all of his Books and read them all. He was an interesting Linguistic Scholar, to say the least, and there have been many following his Annanuki Alien hypotheses. Cutting to the chase, I think that Alien Abduction is Lucid dreaming or deep meditation meeting disincarnated entities inside, But that does not answer the Crop Circles and Cattle Mutilations. UFOs and Aliens is a more controversal subject than Religeon to discuss, and is even condidered a religeon my many, considering that Jesus was born of a Virgin impregnated by a Holy Spirit, so that would make Jesus half human, half Alien. Jehvah was an Alien ET who was the ET Deity of the Hebrews, on earth, aling with other Alien ET Deities on eRth at that time waring against each other in Sitchen’s Earth Chronicle Books.

@ 777 hello.
What I meant by stating that God needs to go back to the drawing board is that his approach is failing.
If religion and sant mat were studied under case studies you would find that there would be very little they could show. And if you claimed to have seen god I’m sure that the white van with men in white uniforms would appear to take such people to lunatic asylums.
Sant mat needs a revision! It ain’t working. It’s pushing people away. When you see a system is just acting or acted humility it crashes. That is what I meant by the drawing board.
If we are already dead and blind – ten why is so much expected of us from a God who is so hard to reach. The Beaty if this is that even Gurinder has said “this isn’t the only path”. Wow. Is there another path that makes sense and isn’t driven by money???
I can honestly say that I have not read much on here which makes me go wow. It’s all been said before and nothing is new under the sun.
Have a great day or night – wherever you are

Hi Jen
I apologize for the lecture. To forgive others and focus on our own issues is the point, though it can only be a flawed point when it’s given to anyone else.
But I speak sincerely from my own experience, as best I understand it.
My own work with my own shortcomings is a lifelong journey and battle and I’m not qualified to say anything to anyone. But what I know, I speak.
Shabd is the answer. It’s the only answer I’ve found. It’s the only answer I know, but it is an astounding answer.
You write as though you do not have that wealth, but rather than presume, I would like to know more about your experience with Shabd. Not with any organizion, not with your Master. These are all means to an end, and all have their limitations, and if they don’t, they are also seen through our own limitations.
But Shabd is the ever fixed mark, the Transformational element, the foundation of everything else.
And so that is what I’m trying to understand to make sense of your complaint: your relationship to Shabd.
I see you searching for anything else, and wonder what happened to Shabd for you?
It will help me understand you better, Jen.

Spencer, no need to apologize, I know you mean well and like to help others.
You ask about the Shabd and what it means to me. You say “I see you searching for anything else, and wonder what happened to Shabd for you?”
I’m not searching for anything, just enjoying discovering new ideas such as the simulation theory and virtual reality. I think the sound that rings in our head is the sound of the universe.
No big deal Spencer, I don’t need help or need to be saved, but thanks anyway for your kind thoughts 🙂

@ Spencer – just read Jens response to you and think your heart is in the right place but don’t try save everyone your own cross will be too heavy to carry – let alone anyone else’s. That goes for me too.
If you knew me and my sacrifices and what I would do to help- it would frighten you. Gurinder would challenge me and say “if only you knew the bad things that you have done in previous lives” that I don’t know but I would reply Doh at least I ain’t doing them in this life and that is what matters. And oh I can’t remember my last lives! It’s all nonsense- is it not.
Oh what really pusses me off – masters keep the lower dregs of society around them as they need more help! No shit Sherlock. The issue with that approach is that the good ones feck off somewhere else!!!!
And no mediation doesn’t bleedin help if you ain’t sure you are on a path where is power at the top!!!!!!!
Rant over x

To Arguna,……right after I had my Born Again religeous experince at 35 years old, I actually almost immediately became a religeous fanatic! I wanted it ALL, immediately, what all the other religeous fanatics claimed to possess. But the sad thing was, no one really, possessed any thing, that I didn’t already have. They only claimed to have the same powers that the Apostles of Jesus had , and that all other others lied about having for the last 2000 years. I chased after every well known Preacher , as well as less known Wannabees, tithing my income to Churches and Evangelists, all the time imagining that some of what they claimed to possess would rub off on me. What is sad is that, my faith was real, and my mind was really altered psychologically, from my Born Again experience, as if another soul had stepped in to my body and took over , killing the old Jim that had been there for 35 years! The change has been that drastic, in every area of my life. But I finally quit chasing men claiming to have more of God than I have, because once I got close enought to any of them, and had a chance to observe them, I found that every single one of them, had as many, if not more human viruses than even i ever have, and I quit chasing them with Thakar Singh being the last one I chased. I only chased Charan Singh thru his Books and Cassette tapes, but really, truely, hopefully, prayfully, expected Gurinder Singh to be THE exception to the failures of all of the hundreds of others I had been chasing who came up way short of my expectations. But I had only taken my expectations of Gurinder by what his followers had said about him. No one could ever know my expectations of Spiritual Bliss of finally, being graced to sit in the front row before thousand of his adoring Devotees at the Dera for my first time in Oct. 2017, at my ripe old age of 75 finally getting to see a Real God In Human Form!! And what did I see? Nothing but a little wise guy making jokes of not very funny things, and making wise cracks about a Guy’s wife’s Butt and asking him if he knew what a 69 was! There is no other way to tell it, other than the sad, sad, sad, truth of what he did, how he acted, and the language he used. Instead of me feeling that I wanted him to pray for me or any thing I needed, I felt a heart , felt inner desire to break thru his Security Guards and rush up to his High Chair, and lay hands on his head and heart, and pray the Exorcist Prayers to cast all the demons out of him! If you allowed him in a room alone with me praying for each other, ……it would be him asking for my help, not me asking for his. 😇
Now his folowers who dare, can ask me what I really think about what I felt being there. I now have had 6 months to digest my feelings since being there. Truthfully, I had given far too much credit to him, for only what I had heard with out being in his presence. But hey, each to his own. Thousands of the Happy Love Guru’s followers still love him, even after his conviction and finding out he was a sexual pervert among other things after being incarcerated to Prison.

Hi Jen and Arjuna!
You are both right. I’m fully occupied with my own issues.
I depend upon meditation every day.
I literally could not function without it. And when it lapses, problems invisibly pile up, so that when they become visible I realize this happened because I was not living aligned to that central spirit. And returning to the practice, to the spirit, regains for me that balance, until some episode or other, some life stresses, push me away from the practice. This has basically been my life pattern for over forty years. All that has happened is that the intervals, the lapses have shrunk from years, to months, to weeks, to days, to hours.
I’ve seen the pattern, and also seen the effects of staying true to my Master. My fate has not changed, except for a few unbelievable and life saving events.
But my inner life has become exceedingly sweet.
What has struck me is how even with the most amazing internal and external miraculous events, my mind still wanders and forgets. Only in the practice is my memory restored. Then I ask myself, “How could I have forgotten that?!”
So I see this estrangement, this amnesia in others. And I’ve seen it turn to bitterness, hardness. It is heart breaking. And then, of course, we try to justify it, egos that we are.
I read about much the same as my experience in other spiritual literature and do not confuse the packaging, which is just for the mind, with the substance, which is reality.
Certainly if I had been able to function otherwise, I would not return, again and again, and again. So I also see what happens across multiple lives, because the moment you dedicate yourself to one idea, one purpose, that cycle accelerates so that you can live through it many times in this life.
I know what it is to be distracted, to fall, to make excuses for oneself. And the difficulty asking for and humbly receiving much needed help and guidance from friends and family.
Saying ‘I don’t need my Master’ hasn’t actually worked for me, though it has been attempted and tested by my mind thousands of times.
Returning to the meditation helped me.
That is all I can offer, my own story.
I wish with all sincerity that Truth comes to you both in the way that works for you without so many falls, so much effort. Or that you are in a place where it simply isn’t necessary, or where losing a day of meditation doesn’t threaten your performance visibly in a highly visible, stressful and demanding job, or even in keeping peace and tranquility in close relationships where everyone is a mixed and volitile bag. You might say Master has me on a very tight leash. He must be with me at all times. So I work to keep pace. And in those moments have extreme happiness.
That glass of milk has been filled closer and closer to the cup’s brim with each passing year, and with it the necessity of keeping absolute balance and calm. Because the very King who has ordered it to be filled with blissful life-giving nectar has also ordered his guards to beat me should I spill even a drop. This never fails to prove itself with even a moment’s doubt.

To Spencer, ……..thanks for coming out of your Hermetically sealed Righteous closet and revealing a few of your warts. 😇
Welcome to earth where none of us are perfect, and why we all need Christ. No exceptions. Including Atheists, Gurinder, Ishwar, and very other Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, Guru still alive.
Here is how I preached it from the Bible before I ever heard of Sant Mat or read any Eastern Scriptures. ( close your eyes, Jen, or leave the room)
Total Depravity Verse List
The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation. (Thus the necessity of a gracious, unconditional election.) Here is a sweeping survey of the biblical support for the doctrine.
Unless otherwise indicated, all Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
Is man basically good or basically evil?
All men? Are there any exceptions?
Are people good deep down?
Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?
Heart/Mind (Deceitful)
Will/Choosing (Enslaved)
Affections/Desires (Perverted)
et al (Utter Ruin)
Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?
Are men at least born pure? What about the “tabula rasa”?
What is the natural disposition of man toward God?
What is man’s relationship to God?
Can man then do anything to please God?
Are men at least seeking God?
Can the natural man comprehend the gospel or come to saving knowledge of God on his own?
Can men of themselves accept God’s gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?
Who supplies faith/belief/repentance?
Can men do anything to help themselves?
Then what becomes of our boasting?
Recommended Reading
Is man basically good or basically evil?
Ecclesiastes 7:29 – “See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”
Romans 5:7-8 – For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:12,19 – sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned… by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners
c.f. Job 15:14-16, 25:4-6; Ecclesiastes 9:3
All men? Are there any exceptions?
Psalm 143:2 – Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.
Romans 11:32 – For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (c.f. Galatians 3:22)
Romans 3:23 – for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
2 Chronicles 6:36 – “there is no one who does not sin”
Isaiah 53:6 – All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way
Micah 7:2-4 – The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net. Their hands are on what is evil, to do it well; the prince and the judge ask for a bribe, and the great man utters the evil desire of his soul; thus they weave it together. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright of them a thorn hedge.
Romans 3:9-12 – What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (c.f. Psalm 14:1-3, 53:1-3)
1 John 1:8,10 – If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us.
Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19 – And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”
c.f. 1 Kings 8:46; 116:11, 130:3, 143:2; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; Jeremiah 2:29; Micah 7:2-4, Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19; Romans 5:12-14; 1 Corinthians 5:9-10; James 3:2; etc., etc.
Are people good deep down?
Mark 7:21-23 – “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
Psalm 5:9 – For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.
Are men totally depraved? Is every faculty of the person corrupted?
Heart/Mind (Deceitful)
Jeremiah 17:9 – “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
Titus 1:15-16 – to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 – Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Romans 1:28-31 – And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were… foolish
Ephesians 4:17-18 – you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 – among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish… Every man is stupid and without knowledge
Matthew 15:19 – “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.” (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 – The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.
Proverbs 10:20 – the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
Proverbs 28:26 – Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool
c.f. Deuteronomy 29:2-4; Psalm 10:4, 36:1-2, 58:4-5, 94:11; Proverbs 10:20; Ecclesiastes 8:11; Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26; Matthew 13:14; Mark 7:21-23; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 4:17-18, 23
Will/Choosing (Enslaved)
John 8:34 – Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.”
2 Peter 2:19 – They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
Titus 3:3 – For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
Galatians 4:8-9 – Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 – We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey…? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed… For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Romans 7:14 – For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 – God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
c.f. Isaiah 42:6-7; Psalm 51:12; John 8:31-32,36; 2 Corinthians 3:17
Affections/Desires (Perverted)
Romans 1:24-27 – Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Ephesians 2:3 – we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Proverbs 21:10 – The soul of the wicked desires evil
John 3:19 – And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
John 8:44 – “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.”
c.f. Genesis 3:16; Psalm 4:2, 52:3-4 140:8; Proverbs 10:23; 2 Timothy 3:2-4; 2 Peter 2:13
et al (Utter Ruin)
Titus 1:15-16 – to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Romans 7:18 – For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh.
Isaiah 1:5-6 – The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds; they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.
Can men change themselves or still do good when they want to?
Jeremiah 13:23 – Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
1 Samuel 24:13 – “As the proverb of the ancients says, ‘Out of the wicked comes wickedness.’”
Matthew 7:18 – “A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.” (c.f. Luke 6:43)
Matthew 12:34-35 – “How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.”
Romans 8:7 – For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 – The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from youth.
Titus 1:15-16 – to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
c.f. Job 14:4; Matthew 12:34; John 15:5; Romans 14:23; Philippians 1:11; 1 John 5:18-19
Are men at least born pure? What about the “tabula rasa”?
Psalm 51:5 – Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Genesis 8:21 – the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
Psalm 58:3 – The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
John 3:6 – “That which is born of the flesh is flesh”
c.f. Proverbs 22:15
What is the natural disposition of man toward God?
John 3:20 – “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.”
Romans 8:7-8 – For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God
Colossians 1:21 – And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds
c.f. Romans 1:28-30; James 4:4
What is man’s relationship to God?
Psalm 58:3 – The wicked are estranged from the womb;
Ephesians 2:12-13 – remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:3 – among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
c.f. Isaiah 59:2
Can man then do anything to please God?
Proverbs 15:9 – The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord
Proverbs 15:8 – The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord (c.f. Proverbs 21:27)
Proverbs 28:9 – If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.
Isaiah 64:6 – We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
Hebrews 11:6 – And without faith it is impossible to please [God]
Romans 8:7-8 – Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
c.f. Psalm 50:16; Proverbs 21:4; Isaiah 1:10-15; Amos 5:21-24
Are men at least seeking God?
Psalm 10:4 – In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, “There is no God.”
John 3:20 – “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.”
Isaiah 65:1 – “I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me; I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
Isaiah 64:7 – There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.
Romans 3:10-12 – “no one seeks for God.”
c.f. Romans 10:20
Can the natural man comprehend the gospel or come to saving knowledge of God on his own?
1 Corinthians 2:14 – The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 – our gospel is veiled… to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18,21-24 – For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles
Deuteronomy 29:2-4 – And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.”
Matthew 11:27 – “no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
c.f. Psalm 119:18; Proverbs 4:19; Isaiah 42:6-7; Hosea 14:9; Matthew 16:17; John 8:43; Acts 22:14, 26:18; Ephesians 4:17-19; 2 Corinthians 2:15-16; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 1 John 5:20
Can men of themselves accept God’s gift of salvation? Do men choose God or come to Him on their own?
John 3:27 – John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.”
John 14:16-17 – “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.”
John 1:12-13 – But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 6:44,65 – “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Romans 9:16 – So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Romans 11:35-36 – “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things.
1 Corinthians 1:30 – And because of him you are in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:13 – for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
c.f. Jonah 2:9; Zephaniah 3:9; John 15:16; 1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 1:6; James 1:18
Who supplies faith/belief/repentance?
Acts 16:14 – One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
1 Corinthians 3:6 – I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.
Acts 5:31 – “God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 11:18 – When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
Philippians 1:29 – For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should… believe in him
Acts 18:27 – When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed
Ephesians 2:8-9 – For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 12:3 – For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
2 Timothy 2:24-25 – And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, [etc.]… God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth
1 Corinthians 12:3 – no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:3 – His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence
Romans 11:36 – For from him and through him and to him are all things.
1 Corinthians 4:7 – For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
John 3:6, 6:63 – “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.”
c.f. 1 Chronicles 29:14; John 5:44; Acts 3:16; Romans 1:8, 12:3; Ephesians 6:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:2
Can men do anything to help themselves?
Colossians 2:13 – And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses
Ephesians 2:1-2, 4-5 – And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked… But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved
c.f. Psalm 49:7-9; Jeremiah 2:22; Ezekiel 16:6, 37:1-3; Romans 5:6
Then what becomes of our boasting?
Romans 3:27 – It is excluded.
c.f. 1 Corinthians 1:28-29, 4:7; Ephesians 2:9-9
Cheers,……and Blessings to us Depraved
Jim

@ Jim – what conviction do you refer to?

@ Spencer – I did want you to bare your soul I am not like most RSSB folk who week such spectacles.
I am a seeker after truth and am just praying that God finds me and leads me to a teacher who is Love incarnated.

To Arjuna, this is the Conviction I was referring to.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/gurmeet-ram-rahim-impotent-sex-addict-honeypreet-dera-sacha-sauda-1041924-2017-09-10

@ Jim – scary link

Jim
You must have copy/pasted all that
If not, . . ; how can you put so much energy
aiming an outcome nobody will read
Myself I , I fully understand , . . was once SO angry when I met
Charan for the first time,
I had my hands in my pockets, . . ; suddenly HE turned and approached me
Frozen, . . I was unable to retake a gentle position/ posture ( english is not my mothertongue)
I was like the Sodoma/Ghomorra salt pillars
next He passed me and greeted a guy next to me
I recovered , say in 20 minutes, . . quicker than you from the butt Master
Did you hear about the Sant SatGuru who spent the night in a brothel
and left 20 disciples outside ?
In all congregations: Love is so much pleasant
777

I tried to go through and catch
JIM,
You are the only existing person in your life
ALL OTHERS ARE PROJECTIONS
Solispis,e or Solopisme is a little complicated
but is the truth
What I write here is of YOUR making
GOD

Hi Jim
Yes I also love the Gospels
“1 Corinthians 2:14 – The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
This is the heart of the matter here, it seems to me.
The actual term for “natural” in the Greek is Psyche…. The mind does not accept the Spirit. The person who is using the limited reason of mind trades experience of the Holy Spirit, the Shabd, for mere concepts.
But once you have that spirit and can witness it, then the mind is focused on the Spirit and , as the gift from Christ in the flesh (for me, Maharaji Charan Singh) then we must work through that Spirit as Paul taught us :
“. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
” 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
“12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”
IF…. it isn’t a given…
BY THE SPIRIT… not our power but the spirit of Christ within us, the audible spirit…
YOU… That’s not Christ’s job. It’s our job….
PUT TO DEATH THE MISDEEDS OF THE BODY…. It’s our duty to use the spirit we were given. No one else ‘s job..
YOU WILL LIVE..Our eternal life depends upon actually having the gift of spirit And taking full responsibility to use it.. Both are necessary for life.
Words, oaths, promises and rituals are meaningless without this Spirit and our full responsibility to use it every day.

The above is from Romans 8

777 writes,…”You must have copy/pasted all that
If not, . . ; how can you put so much energy
aiming an outcome nobody will read”
Me:actually, that’s why I hung up my Credentials and quit preaching around 1985. There were no Word Processors or Internet then. It used to take me at last 10 hours to research and put together material for a 45 minute Sermon, and I gave several a week that nobody listened to. They came to Church to see their friends, gossip, and flaunt their knowledge. ( the young unmarried came to look for dates.)
Nothing has changed. As fhe Bible says, there is nothing new inder the sun. HaHa.

17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Ephesians 6:17
The word IS the spirit and the Spirit IS the Word.
Hear the holy Word.
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:2

777, you say “You are the only existing person in your life
ALL OTHERS ARE PROJECTIONS”.
Well, there you go. Everything we see and interact with is coloured by our own projections as in we are creating our own reality.
So why the insistence of having a guru? Is it fear that we need protection or is it some kind of perverted ego thing that we are not good enough or powerful enough and so we need to worship another? Sure, we can learn from others and then slowly make progress on our own path.
We all come from the same source and life seems to throw up something new to either challenge and/or help us to move in a new direction so that our consciousness continues to evolve.

Hi Jen
You ask
“So why the insistence of having a guru?”
There is a legitimate reason.
You wrote
“We all come from the same source and life seems to throw up something new to either challenge and/or help us to move in a new direction so that our consciousness continues to evolve.”
If this is so, then others have gone there far earlier and farther than us. Some have gone the whole way. The holy spirit has been around for a long time. And before venturing into that uncharted land I would like a guide and a map please, and some training.
I was trained by a certified dive Master then I took the tests to receive my own certification before I started scuba diving. Is it wise or safe to do otherwise?
I was trained and took a test before I was allowed to drive a car on the streets. Is it wise or safe to do otherwise?
I would never fly on a plane without a trained pilot, would you?
I would never undergo surgery without a surgeon trained at a college by other surgeons, and fully credentialed and licensed. Who would do otherwise?
I would never attempt either of these myself without submitting to a qualified teacher. Would you?

So why the insistence of having a guru? Is it fear
that we need protection or is it some kind of perverted
ego thing that we are not good enough or powerful enough
and so we need to worship another?
Great Master offers a interesting answer to a similar
question in “Call of the Great Master”:
Q: “Is it not a sign of weakness, or rather of cowardice,
to seek the help of a Guru? One must fight his own
battles.”
A: You are welcome to undertake the journey alonne; but,
those who have seen the difficulties of the way hold a
different view. In our worldly wars don’t we seek the
help of others? We cannot move a single step inside
without the help of a guide. You may call him Guru or,
if you don’t like that word, call him friend or even
servant.
…

Hi guys,
Seems like I’ve become some sort of rebel, very strange since being initiated 49 years ago! I do appreciate your comments because I need to examine my own ideas and look at all sides of the argument. Problem is that I no longer trust these gurus.
If its all just consciousness that we merge back into, a tiny little drop merging into the ocean, then its no big deal. Also, the journey back, why would it be uncharted land when we’re going back to where we came from?
Maybe I’m fooling myself but what about the idea that our Higher Self could be our own inner guide?

Great Jen
The Ocean flowing in the drop
The Kings Falcon, by no reason, <<< ha ha this ), has landed on your shoulder and has become yours Rumi ps The poem starts with : When the Ocean comes to You as a lover, be quick, don t hesitate, . . marry Him . . My favorite Rumi 777 Before Abraham . . . . . . I AM

If its all just consciousness that we merge back into, a tiny little drop merging into the ocean, then its no big deal. Also, the journey back, why would it be uncharted land when we’re going back to where we came from?
I like Ishwar Puri’s anecdote about his childhood
when told he could visualize himself as “soul drop”
just going on a journey and finally merging back into
the ocean.
“Terrible” he thought. “I lose what little bit of identity
I have and what’s the ocean gain with one more
drop. So it’s lose-lose”.
At some point, he realized that you don’t go on a
“journey” at all because you never left the ocean
in the first place. Only your diminished awareness
has reduced you to think you’re a “drop”.

If its all just consciousness that we merge back into, a tiny little drop merging into the ocean, then its no big deal. Also, the journey back, why would it be uncharted land when we’re going back to where we came from?
I like Ishwar Puri’s anecdote about his childhood
when told he could visualize himself as “soul drop”
just going on a journey and finally merging back into
the ocean.
“Terrible” he thought. “I lose what little bit of identity
I have and what’s the ocean gain with one more
drop. So it’s lose-lose”.
At some point, he realized that you don’t go on a
“journey” at all because you never left the ocean
in the first place. Only your diminished awareness
has reduced you to think you’re a “drop”.

Hi Jen!
You wrote:
“Hi guys,
Seems like I’ve become some sort of rebel, very strange since being initiated 49 years ago! ”
We are all rebels relative to thinking, maybe a part of ourselves is a rebel to our own!
Jen, after reading so many of your comments I am very curious to hear what you did and didn’t get from your Shabd practice.
I get your rejection of the Masters, based on what people write here of their public appearances and statements, etc…
If I had nothing from Shabd my personal view of the Masters would just be the remarkable ethics in the philosophy I read, but having no deeper exposure, I might question how they handle their money, or why they were harsh to someone once, or even why they wear a turban. Nothing I can see would be enough to call them a “Master”, except that I fell in love with the writings, Sawan Singh, Shiv Dayal, and Maharaji’s philosophy. And then when I saw Gurindar, words can’t describe it. But all that is from the perspective of my inner life.
It is the inner experience that puts the whole picture in an entirely different view. Sitting alone in a room most of my life? Can’t wait to do so after work, can’t wait to do so every morning.
Because I’m not in that room at all.
It’s life, to me. So it surprises me, not just in reading your take, but also Jim’s, Brian’s , and Arjuna’s.
My presumption has always been “Of course, they have extremely limited inner conscious exposure to Shabd. They aren’t using Shabd actively every day, they don’t see the pire of the storehouse of their own karmas… they don’t pass through the stars and galaxies into the explosion of light every day…not part of their reality.” etc…
But I don’t know. The moment I put aside that thinking, you, Jen, become more of a mystery to me than my Master. Because I don’t really know your (or Brian or Jim or Arjuna’s) actual record of Shabd practice…How long you did it for, how disciplined you were, what you experienced, and your environment internally. It all makes ALL the difference in the world.
With zero actual Shabd experience, or sporadic at best, everything you write makes perfect sense.
But I do not wish to presume.
I don’t understand how all the worldly news weights against your own experience of Shabd, and would like to hear your own narrative, if you wouldn’t mind. Jim, Arjuna, same for you. If you’ve already given that, please give me a link.
And Brian, also. What really happened or didn’t happen within? Where did you go? Can you still go there? How active is your internal life? What is your experience and progress with Shabd?

@ Spencer brother. You need some one to connect you to Shabd. A power in human form.
I fear the other side is having a lot of fun with you. They try that with me in the cave and he’ll i visit.
You are being manipulated brother by a very powerful entity. As I know that true contact with the source does not leave you as you state. You lose interest in the world.
The dark one is not so easy to defeat so I suggest 99 percent of people on here get of their soap box. He has you and you are still here. Most on here would crap their pants if they saw him.
Did you know Kal visited beas as the time of the great master sawan Singh. Robed in rags he wanted to see the master – master refused saying “ let the dog in he will go soon”. The sevadars only found out afterwards who he was.
He ain’t no small power – he follows me. I am bored of him but why the interest . I must be close to the real shabd

Hi Arjuna!
I was initiated by Maharaj Charan Singh 30 years ago July.
One thing I’ve learned is that it is not a good idea to try to project what is going on in anyone else’s head. Hence my interest in others ‘ experience.
And yours?

@ Spencer lol. The lord protect us all.
I was telling you what I see. But you know better.

Hi Arjuna
I only know better for myself.
Each of us is the unalterable final judge in our own minds. No one can replace that position no matter how much we honor them or try to submit to their guidance.
As for opinions, we all have them.
Would you accept feedback from me about your development spiritually?
Didn’t think so. Nor should you.
That is why I have a Master. He has already proven Himself, and I submit, as best I am able to His correction every day.
As for you, I am very interested to hear about your experience and connection to Shabd.
It helps me understand people’s statements and judgements here.
Would someone versed in Shabd really judge someone else’s spiritual development?
I’d like to understand your choice better.

@ Spencer you don’t want to know about my experiences -you won’t believe me.
Take care my friend

@ Spencer please stop saying I judged you. Knowing and judging are two different things.
I wish you all the best

@Arguna writes,,,,” I suggest 99 percent of people on here get of their soap box”
Me: I am curious who the remaining 1% is?

Spencer you say: “That is why I have a Master. He has already proven Himself, and I submit, as best I am able to His correction every day.”
I remember being a humble, insecure, very low self esteem type person. Thats why I was happy to be initiated. Now it seems so very apparent to me that being humble and giving away one’s own spiritual power to another is just a sign of weakness.
Do we ever really know who and what a Master is? We go to the Dera and we see someone on a stage acting a role. How do we know he is what we believe him to be. Its simply our own projections and beliefs that create inner visions.
Also, the Shabd which supposedly pulls people out of their bodies and into the inner regions. There are others who do not follow a guru who experience the inner regions. Is that because of the Shabd? Every living thing has a spiritual energy. Satsangis think they are the chosen ones and that is far from humility.
Its all a mystery and like Arjuna says there is a malevolent entity Sant Mat calls Kal who probably can also manifest into a divine angelic type being and then people think they have been saved when its just a trap.

Sorry Spencer, just been chastising myself for being so critical. I am going to try and stop this, its become a habit and not a good one. Going to watch myself when being triggered by something religious. Its not my place to judge.
To each their own.
Cheers
Jen

The “Malevolent entity Sant Mat calls Kal”…. is TIME,…..OR universal Mind. That’s what Charan Singh said, in some of his Q & A tapes. He also sad many times said that our indvidual minds, were Agents of Universal Mind, Kal.
So, to me, at least, that verifies the Gnostic teaching that their evil creator is the Demiurge, or the Christian Satan, .
Satan and Lucifer are sad to be one and the same, but Lucifer was tne Angel of Light, who was cast down from Heaven, ( Sach Khand? ), whereas Satan, is the Bogeyman misidentified as Kal, i.e. Time.
But, no doubt, there are no shortage of evil disincarnated entities in the low Astral Realms, many that may have never even taken human form on planet earth.
Than again, if Charausi, i.e. the Wheel of 8,400,000 species is real, than just imagine all the Astral images of not only weird looking insects that would be very scary when met in the Astral realms during OBEs, but also imagine many species of earth’s past that have disappeared.

Hi Jim and Arjuna:
I do not believe Kal is evil. He is the negative power, in the sense of polar opposites. The opposite of all compassion, love, timeless and border-less Spirit, is the land of limits, borders, time.
Kal is the Lord of this region, and a couple of higher ones, including the Astral region. He is, as you point out Jim, the regent of time itself.
He is only “bad” in the sense that he runs the system of justice, Karma, without variation. He is the perfect law keeper, and is not malevolent.
He is worthy of his pay, and does an honorable job, in so far as the Supreme Lord wishes this place to run, and Kal, its Creator, runs it. And in the sense that he is the servant of God, worthy of our respect. To leave his place, it is important to do so honorably. There is, actually, no other way.

Hi Jen!
No problem. In fact, I didn’t see your remarks as critical, but expository. Your sentiment that submission to God is giving up power to another being. If I thought that, certainly that is wrong.
But for me I am only connecting and honoring my true Self. You see, I’m not this personality, which is really the machine I use to function here, like driving my car. I’m more than that, as are you and everyone else here. We’re all the same, but it isn’t these bodies and brains at all. So to return to the One means leaving all that.
This body and brain are no source of power at all, but in fact barriers and filters of consciousness.
To take off the blinders and experience real freedom is the only power that has any actual value.
And that comes by gently taking off the clothes of this body and mind, and leaving them at the door to His abode.
At least as far as my experience goes. In loss, I gain freedom. In submission, I am no longer blind or disabled but fully able to travel under my own power, my will.

8.4 is way to little
ask any biologist
777

Hi Spencer,
Yes the body, brain etc is simply a vehicle here on this world. I still have some reservation about submission to another. My higher self longs to avoid all these so called gods and fly away free.
If we are all equal in spirit why do we need to submit, although I’m guessing that this ‘god’ we are talking about is the creator of this physical universe?
Who knows, we may all be creator gods and a fractal of our being decided to experience this other god’s realm.

Hi Jen
Perhaps a better, more precise way to think of submission is lower mind submitting to higher mind.
Higher mind wants to merge in universal mind, which is a good thing.
Then soul is freed.
Submission to a guide only matters in the practical issue of progress.
If I practice ballet on my own that is fine and I can make some progress. To really advance, if that is my desire, I need to take lessons from a teacher, and have a dance partner.
If I want my car to run better I go to a mechanic.
So the issue of a spiritual teacher only arises when 1. we are trying to move our own progress forward and 2.We are actively working with Shabd (spirit) or our own mind, or any practice of prayer or meditation and realize we need assistance / guidance to get beyond some limitation or other.
Otherwise, why ask for any feedback or correction? Who wants to hear they are wrong?
The individual who seeks progress seeks feedback.
The hobbyist, when they get tired of watercolor painting gives it up and moves on to geocacheing, when that gets “boring” they try a writing class. When that feels like too much work they but a cookbook…. Etc..But that is just a hobby, not a profession.

Spencer, its funny that you mention being a hobbyist who does painting, because that is my favourite hobby.
Have taken many lessons over the years and tried all the different kinds of paints and techniques.
Now am enjoying doing abstract / impressionistic / expressionist type paintings which is about expressing my own creative energy.
So a kind of a theme about our life interests and our spiritual journey. Still learning from others but at the same time moving on into one’s own individual unique expression whilst in human form and also spiritual.

” But after a career in software and seeing the scale of data
mining and assaults on privacy, I choose to remain anonymous. ”
Once proudly leasing IBM 370 and U can tell my amazement
when the secretary at Beas had a mini model of that machine on his desk
7

@ Spencer – your master said once that if the Lord shows you something you digest it. Don’t tell others. If the Lord wanted other people to know He would let others know Himself.
You wouldn’t go around walking with diamonds showing out in this world lest you get robbed or God forbid worse.
Maharaj Charan Singh Ji made it clear that value your grace do not share.
I have known people who have told others very interesting stuff more than anything I have read here. And that grace they shared has gone to the people they told stuff to whilst the other persons darkness has gone on to the ones They shared with.
I listen to Maharaji Charan Singh and wouldn’t share anything. Ps the experiences most state here don’t correspond to what is inside.
Listen to your own master brother.you go against Him not me. Trust me you can’t help anyone by sharing.
Please don’t argue back I’m only telling you what the Big man said! Yes you can state your opinions but that’s all they are opinions x

@ 777
Do we need Edward Snowden to look at that IBM 370 in beas lol

@Arjuna,……writes,…”Listen to your own master brother.you go against Him not me. Trust me you can’t help anyone by sharing.”
Jim Surherland answers” I TOTALLY disagree! Cults thrive on secrecy. Sharing is caring, for our fellow human beings. Every thing I presently have is because some one like Spencer Tepper shared with me. Or Manjit, or Brian, or Lane, 777, or any thing at all that otther humans with real Names who weren’t hiding in closets too ashamed of their self worth to share their inner most beings and stuff that helps others, like me, keep on keeping on.
The only thing that empowers Gurus and Cult Masters are the secrets they claim no one else should share, in order to keep them selves in power, claiming to have what ofhers don’t have
“It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe.” 1 Corintians 1:21
“ How shall they hear with out a Preacher. “ Romans 10:14
“ A man’s gift makes room for him and brings him before great men.” Ephesians 4:8-11
“ And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power.” 1 Cor. 2:4

@ Jim hello.
Say if there is an element of truth in not sharing and that we take on others dross if we share.
So are you saying Maharaj Charan Singh was a cult leader now. Is he not the one who initiated you? Do you really believe that you have power to go within yourself??? Something pulls us up. We are totally blind are we not. You have lost me Jim – truth be told I’m taken a bit back

@Arjuna,…..please do not put words in my mouth. You, or no one else really knows what Charan Singh told, or tells me, privately, other that what I decide to share, occasionally.
Perhaps Newbies recently on the Path with nothing to share should shut up and listen, before preaching to others, but when I hear some o e loke Spence with 30 years experience on tne Path initited by the same Master as I share what he re ently shared, and I am able to corraborate with much of what he shared, and vice versa, than I would think Newbies or complainers on the Path with no experiences would take notice and be motivated that thete really just might be adventures i since that have not yet been privy to.
I have never been a Doper, not even tried any, other than Weed a couple of times, but I surely don’t disbelieve that Dopers have never seen the same light we do in Meditation, the soft, or slow and easy way to ignite the inside Flame.
A sample of the Book Manjit linked.
““Like a rattlesnake stirring in the weeds, a thin line of energy violently unwrapped its flapping tail from my sacrum. This creature had a feral, untamable intelligence, its energy a dangerous live wire of swerving electricity. Was this kundalini? Whatever it was, it rapidly swung up to my root chakra, paused, then quickly penetrated the energy center at my pelvis. My breath seized, and I lay frozen as this fiery whip of searing energy crawled up my spinal column on its own accord, igniting each chakra until it reached the underside of my scalp.
A troubling cacophony of voices spoke to me; I saw a billion eyes and ears spiraling out in fractal patterns across the universe, witnessing the story of creation. A fountain of sparking white light opened up above my head,”
Excerpt From
The Electric Jesus
Jonathan Talat Phillips
This material may be protected by copyright.

@ Jim sorry to have upset you.
Will leave you in peace.

@Arguna,…..Not upset. I just don’t want to arrive to Sach Khand ashamed to have lived, and died with out having ever shared every thing I was graced with . Maybe if I was still young, like you, I might be more inclined to not share and hord it all to my self and remain selfish, but, as soon as I found Gold at 35, I have not been able to dig it up fast enough to share with my fellow Seekers.
If you ever meet me there, you will at least know who I am. I won’t recogise you ,or any of the others who hide in secret with out sharing their Booty and Treasure.
😇

Hi Arjuna
I appreciate your effort to help.
Are you a Satsangi? Are you an initiate of Maharaj Charan Singh?
And finally, are you keeping up with what your vows?

@ Jim – you sound cool and I am glad I have not upset you. It’s the last thing I want to do to anyone. I am dying to go within – pardon the pun.
@ Spencer
Looks like you know something I don’t 😀. I have not sat in mediation for ages.
I was initiated by Master Gurinder.

As far as Initiation is concerned, none of the Sant Mat initiation is missing from tne Internet, to any one interested, and not to lazy to run the searches. Even the 5 Names Mantra is posted in many places. We have discussed the Simran, Dhyan, and Bahjun here, and on RSS, and on Ishwar’s forums, as well as other places. What secrets are left?
The Bullets are all the same Caliber. Only the Gun is Singhled out as Big Guns, Little Guns, Live Guns, and dead Guns.
But, which are Canons, and which are Pea Shooters?
I have had many Initiations. Initiations only mean the starting, or entrance in to a new experience. Only ME decides to continue or quit once initiated.
I was first initiated with out my consent, when Baptised as a baby by a Catholic Priest, when presented by my Father and Mother to God, as they understood Him.
Later, I was initiated again, takiing my “ First Communion,” around 7 years old. Again, not by choice, but not fighting it, either.
Then, “Confirmation” at about eleven, still not by choice, but accepting what my parents wanted me to do.
Then, a freaking REAL scary Initiation, when I was inducted in to the U.S. Force a month after my 17th Birthday at Boot Camp in Texas! Now, that Initition really changed my life!!!
Than, I was married. That was surely an Initiation! No Guru taught me what I had to do to learn the meditation techniques involved to retain my same Bride for the last 56.5 years! It took, and still does, a lot of faith that my Bride , will hang with me until death do us past, as Vowed, as my Master will!
Then, there were many more Initiations I chose to do, such as Baptised in Water again, at Age 35, than the Baptism of The Holy Spirit, then Twelve Degrees in the Rosicrucians, three in the Martinists, before Thakar Singh, and last, but certainly not least,
Initiation by Proxy from Charan Singh.
The Big one will arrive, with out warning, and not by choice, when I die physically.
Meanwhile,…..back here in Charasi,……I await to find out the next Mission my Higher Soul will project to!
Until then,…….???

Hi Arjuna!
What is stopping you from meditation?

And that decree He gave
to keep the proud at bay,
For those who cry he bends
So in their darkness one bright ray..

It is His nature for He is Mercy
And if you gain some wealth thereby
A drop from an infinite sea
Then lighter still my heart abides
I have lost nothing.

@ Spencer – I lost faith that is why I don’t mediate

@ Arjuna,…..Usually, most past Masters had their favorite, closest Desciple, who was expected to be their Successor after their passing. At least, that Desciple was respected by most orher followers as the Master’s “ Right Hand Man”, or woman.
Are you aware of Gurinder having even one, such loyal Inner circle close Desciple? If so, may e they could help you renew your faith. ( if you ever had any? )
If not , there must be a couple of his close Security Sevadors that knows the inside truth about Gurinder’s Agenda.
When I was at the Dera last Oct., I found one of the male Sevadors who wore the Army uniforms, thinking I might persuade him to make one phone call to my Taxi driver with his Cell phone. He patiently listened to my story about why I was so desperate to make one single quick phone call outside to let my Taxi Driver know where to pick me up, and to get his Name and Vehicle License Number so they would let him in the Main Gate to the Dera.
But the Sevador told me,…” Brother, “ they” don‘t let us have phones here either. I don’t know how to help you.” So, this Guy , in spite of him wearing his Army Uniform, was just as much of a prisoner there as I was.
Gurinder is in Vancouver, B.C. today, and was in No. California at Petaluma several days ago. My wife asked how come I didn’t fly accross the country to get another peek at him. I told her, I have lost my faith in him, if I ever had any to loose? I wouldn’t go see him if he showed up in my City.

@ Jim – that is a heavy! Why no phones you needed help in just contacting your taxi driver.
I had faith once when I expected maharaj Charan Singh to initiate me but I was too young when he left.
He smiled at me when I was 8 years old and got up from his chair and walked right up to me with folded arms when my mum was told by a sevadar that she is in gods house and should go around for another darshan.
Now you can see why my faith is gone

What is his agenda?

@Arjuna,….his Agenda is to rob, steal, and capture the individual identity, of all who reject The Father’s Gift of the Grace of Human Birth, Limited Free Will, and Individuality. His agenda is to delete all individual Dualities who submit to him, in to his own private Non-Duality of Gurinderism.
Its called Advaita Gurinderism of Non-Duality. It means, he’s Dual, and your Non.
😇

@ Jim – is he the anti christ then?

@Arguna,….no, he is just another Agent of the Demiruge. He has a lot of competitors.
If you have Christ in you, the Hope of Glory, you will know the real Christ from the deceivers.
“ I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live, yet, not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” Galations 2:20
No, that’s the mystery of real Initiation. You can never understand it until you experience it.
But, to expand, I would have to start preaching in a Church where no preaching is allowed.
This Church of the Churchless is the Church of the blind leading the blind.

@ Jim – you have totally lost me.
So he isn’t God but is his agent right?

@ Jim that would imply he also has power like a God ?

Hi Arjuna – Jim’s statement that Gurinder is an agent of the Demiurge is simply a wild opinion. I doubt that he would like to be asked to back up his statement with any real proof.
in Gnosticism and other theological systems, the Demiurge is a heavenly being, subordinate to the Supreme Being, that is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual.
I don’t think that Gurinder fits that definition.

@pooh bear,….”wild opinions” appear to be the Consensious Reality of The Church of the Churchless, do you agree? So, mine is as good as any other.
But, just where fo you think Gurinder in the Gnostic or Theological System?
You can’t just Troll in here, reacting my opinion, with out having one or more of your own. Do what’s yours?
If Gurinder was an Agent of Anami Purush, he would not be continuously expanding his material building projects world wide. And he would not be increasing his personal wealth, that has no use in Anami Radhasoami.
The Demiurge and his agents are material creationists, who’s Mission is to do exactly as Gurinder appears to be doing.
What say you?

@ poor bear (childhood favourite cartoon of mine).
Why hide?
@ Jim. Top man! I agree with you brother!!! That makes sense 10 years or so ago I could not make sense to me. It is all about money and expanding and that is why I stopped going. I just hope the Supreme Being – The Omega – the True Lord from whence I come helps me. Guides me to a true master who is here to take souls back. I am interested in locating my true origin!
On that note it’s night here and cold in the desert so I bid you night!

Jim – I don’t have an opinion on the RSSB organisation. My concern has only ever been with the teaching. Obviously they are two quite different and separate things, but many followers become muddled because they see them as one.
The organisation world-wide is flawed because it is comprised of, and run by flawed people. it’s just another aspect of life’s nonsense.
The teaching on the other hand is a timeless method that has demonstrated its efficacy to many.
I kept clear of the RSSB organisation side of things back in Charan’s time and continue to do so. But I had a good relationship with Charan and that has continued with Gurinder. I just don’t see the point in either running around after him or worrying about his family wealth. The teaching and the practice are enough for me, but I understand that we are all different and some people have different needs.
I read your posts with interest. It is fascinating to see the varieties of understanding that can be brought to a simple teaching.

@ Pooh bear – hello.
Please tell me why Guru Ravidass spent his life in poverty as did the heavyweights like Kabir Sahib? Guru Ravidass was even offered the philosophers stone and a rubi but he stirred right clear of them. Jesus was a poor carpenter.
Why has all of a sudden God become materialistic?

Arjuna – I’m sorry, but I don’t have explanations for the different situations that mystics live in. Yes, some have been poor, and some have been in comfortable professions such as engineer or lawyer.
I do know that the time I have spent alone talking to Gurinder, that he is a good man who is not materialistic, and whose company I enjoy. As for his family wealth, I have no idea what that is about.
Why is the RSSB organisation developing properties all over the world? That’s another question for which I don’t have an answer. I have a possible theory, but the question is not important to me as I no longer have any interest in the external activities that are available in the RSSB organisation.
I hope you find what you are looking for, Arjuna. I can’t help but be reminded of some lines from T.S. Eliot’s poem, ‘Little Gidding’ :
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive back where we started
And know the place for the first time.

“Why is the RSSB organisation developing properties all over the world?”
Probably because its going to be another big religion in the world. Can’t see there being a successor after Gurinder but then there will be all the stories and myths about Sant Mat (just like the stories in the Bible and the Koran) and voilà another religion.

Hi Arjuna
Check out King Janaka. Wealth or poverty makes no difference.
One can be more materialistic in their poverty than the piety of the wealthiest of humans. It is impossible at our level to know. But where the human mind, flawed as it is, forms judgements, there is the true demiurge. It’s within us. The human mind.
The practice is everything.
It is the same practice of Charan Singh and Sawan Singh, and Christ. The practice of worshiping the Spirit, and seeking forgiveness of all that stands between us and the Spirit. And that is our mind.
But the mind is always intervening to keep us from that treasure that is within us.
So it isn’t necessary to pass judgment on any human being, but instead to make progress to find that infinite wealth within yourself.
If one does not see Christ in Gurindar, then they do not see Him within themselves.
If you pray for guidance you must also do your part.
And the part you can play is to engage in continuous prayer. Use what you were given.
Then you may happily learn for yourself that where there are fakes, where there are copies, there must be an original.
And that what appears to be the flawed copy, the stone the worldly builders rejected, is actually the original, the corner stone of this and every other reality.
Because, to the human mind, which is the slave of the Demiurge, the original looks like a flawed copy.
My testimony of Gurindar is that He is the reincarnation of that being who walked the earth as Jesus of Nazareth.

@ poo bear,…..you say Gurinder is a good person. So, you obviously do not see him as a God Man, as his admiring devotees do.
@ Arjuna, as I told you before, I feel your pain. But I would certainly feel it a lot more, if Charan was still alive and he was expanding RSSB Franchises across the planet faster than McDonalds, Starbucks, and KFC, but under his own
RSSB Brand, supported by Amie’s and other vegetarian Businesses.
I agree with poo bear that the Sant Mat Philosophy is the Magnet that attracts the Marked souls, but finding that Master we are Marked for is not for the faint of heart. If I had visited the Dera the first time, and Charan would have been there speaking and making Locker Room jokes as Gurinder did, than I would still be searching for the Master I was marked for! So, Building and property expansion is not the only blemish of Gurinder’s exposed Mission of whether he is an agent of the Demiurge or an Agent of Anami Purush.
But as Sant Mat teaches us, we can never find God by searching out side. He can only be found inside. So you MUST search for Him inside of your own body. And only you, can clean out your Porto Potty and clean it up, to transform it from a Porto Potty to a Spiritual Temple to practice and for experimentation of The Science of The Soul within your own Temple. No Guru can do that for you. They can motivate you to do it ,, and even teach you how to practice it, but only You can do it.
So, how can you discover what is inside of you, as Sawan Singh said to use as sign posts along The Way? ( Dots of light, lightning bolts, Light, sun, moon, and Radiant Master ) some of us in this Church have testified we have either seen some of the signs, if not all, plus the various Sounds. These Signs are the reproducible signs that all of us who have been initiated by a Sant Mat Master have in common. If we go inside in our own individual Temples and put in the initial 2-1/2 hours a day in meditation, until we break thru to receive these experiences, then once we break thru, less meditation time will be needed,
Now, the Visuals, i.e. people, places, and things grooved in to our Causal bodies, as Sanskaras, are all different, as individuals, and are based on our past life Karmas. Now we can access these memories by taking the short cut of many types of drugs, and hallucigenes , such as Ayawasca and LSD, but once these substances are ingested, we can no longer control how long we must remain in spirit, as we can while in Meditation. As for me, I know I have an addictive personality, so being addicted to Spirit, I would rather be addicted to Meditation to bond with spirit rather than by becoming addicted to Ayawasca ceremonies or LSD to bond to the spirit not being able to control when I want to come and go as I please, as I am able to do in meditation.
But, Cutting to the chase, in the Big Picture, none of us, including the Gurus, know all of the answers we, as individuals really need to fulfill our Missions.
You can write Gurinder a letter, and ask him questions, hoping he will personally answer you, as one of his millions of followers, or, you can attend an Ishwar Puri Workshop when he comes to your area, hoping to
get a two minute interview, if your lucky.
Or,……you can go back to Meditation again, search inside, and share your experiences or ask questions right here in this Church, hoping to invite other struggling souls like us, to share and compare notes with each other.
And we don’t even have a PayPal donation Box,….yet! 😇
Sent from my i Pad — Jim Sutherland

Jim said: @ poo bear,…..you say Gurinder is a good person. So, you obviously do not see him as a God Man, as his admiring devotees do.
Charan was my own father’s age, and I saw him as a fatherly teacher who taught me things that my own father knew nothing of.
Gurinder is 7 years younger than me and I see him as a brother who has done the work Charan gave him to do and was instructed to take up the duties of a Master. Neither Charan or Gurinder wanted this role.
I have never considered Charan or Gurinder as God as I don’t have the ability to make that assessment. I knew however in Charan’s lifetime that I had never encountered a human being like him before. And having met with Gurinder, I know now that there are two humans unlike anyone I have ever met before. But as for anything other than exceptional people fulfilling a teaching role, I declare ignorance.
I try and be a realist and stay with what is tangible, and not let my imagination run. Many initiates are fundamentalist in their attitude and are rooted in belief. I am unable to believe.

Hi Arjuna
Your family is not your family.
Christ said He came with a sword to divide the family members, not unite them.
So it is advantageous that you understand that we are passengers on a train and will go our separate ways.
The tough love message can be the most frustrating. But we remember it.
To truly love one another in the way that is most helpful is to be grounded in a love that is eternal.
In the brightest light we close our eyes in pain.
But slowly, oh so slowly, we own them again. And see.

Hi Jen
This whole place was to be our playground, the place where we could have any number of hobbies.
The mountain climber, nearly two thirds up that steep face, hanging by ropes in a tent, surviving days of blinding blizzard, legs frozen, says his goodbyes to wife and children by satellite phone, and then, as the light of sun illuminates his tent, and his eyes slowly close for the last time, smiles and thinks… “this was just a hobby…”

@ Spencer – my parents died when I was a child and I have no brothers and sisters.
Have a great day and yes I am hard as nails – mentally and thanks to the Forces (training).
Have a great day

RSSB “Franchises?”……….I really dount that Gurinder throws darts at a map, and decides he wants to aquire land there, and recruit volunteer workers to build more Buildings for free, and turn over the Real Estate Deeds to RSSB. There has to be inside Contracts only known by those involved. But my hunch is, it starts with RSSB Initiates, who own land or property they no longer are using for any thing benificial, to them, but still are required to pay Real Estate Taxes on. Most likely, they are unable to sell their property for profit, so they contact RSSB and donate their property to RSSB, which then becomes a Tax Exempt property under the religeous property exemptions in the various countries that have those Laws in place. Then, the one who donates the property, becomes the Property Manager, and the Big Kahuna, and starts recruting local Sevadors to improve the property, build and maintain the buildings, etc. as happened at Petsluma, Fayettville, and Texas. Most likely, the same all over. During Charan’s time, when he was against property expansion, many Sstsangs were hosted in private homes, for small groups of Initiates and Seekers in local areas, so these huge buildings were never needed. But Gurinder changed that, and put an end to home Satsangis and he ended all socializing and he chose Designated Speakers ( Zombie Robots ) containing A.I. to deliver the canned, Boiler Plate Satsangs at the weekly Satsangs. If all of these properties in all the different countries no longer had Tax exemtions for those designated RSSB properties, my guess is, the RSSB Label would come off of them rapidly, and Home Satsangs would quickly return, even if under ground. Then, the Big Kahuna Property Donators would loose their power and favoratism among Satsangis, and Satsangs , Socializing, Pot Luck meals at Sat Sangs would return to how they were during Charan’s time.

Hi Arjuna!
I am your brother. As is Jim, and Jen, your sister.

@ Spencer – that means a lot and I mean that.
It is the kindest thing anyone has said to me for a long while

Spencer,
Thank you brother.
I look forward to visiting Churchless every day and it is like a family to me! 😊

The problem, Jim, is trying to understand the growth of an organization under numerous pressures and to then project our own motives upon others we have never met.
And that has very little to do with the Teachings, and our relationship to our own Master, who refused to comment on any other religion or organization, or spiritual or worldly leader.
Personally, until Baba Ji fell Ill, He had nearly annual visits to America, and this was all expedited by the presence of the centers.
I travel to different hospitals for work. The fact that now I can go into any supermarket in any city in America and purchase a frozen dinner made to my exact dietary restrictions, made in the healthiest way possible, and quite tasty, is a seva which I am thankful for. But not just Amy’s, but their success that has pulled other competitors into producing an even wider variety of such foods.
This is not only a great business success, against all odds, but by making healthy vegetarian food available and popular, this also makes killing less also popular. So the result is more people making choices to harm less to feed their stomachs.
I view this as an astounding marketing miracle.
And we all benefit from it.
Satsangis are not restricted from being friends with anyone they like, holding any number of parties they like.
But Satsang should always be about the teachings, not whether a seeker can get along with the clique of personalities holding Satsang in their private homes.
And this was roundly criticized by others as secretive and insuler, even cultish. So Baba Ji did away with all that. Everything isn’t perfect. But it is transparent.
If you want a party and homemade cookies then let’s have one!

Spence,….it appears either we don’t have any past, or present Meditators in this Church, brave enough to share any of their past inner experiences, except you and I?
Either no one has them, or you and I are mentally ill, as I have often been accussed of being. They used to make statements like,…” Are you off your Meds? You better go back to them” but, I have never been on any Prescription Meds, Alcohol, Weed, or Psychedelics of any kind.
I have watched many Documentaties about people drinking Ayawasca , by traveling to Peru to the Amazon to many Shaman Retreats. There are also Underground Ayawasca Ceremonies even in NYC.
But, puking my guts out , and having diarearrea is not my idea of having a spiritual experience. Also, like in a Meditation Path, Ayawasca is also a Path, a path of the spirit vine. You must continue on that path, pukng and soiling your underware, in order to keep going further in, deeper and deeper.
But, as I said before, once you enter those Portholes, unlike in meditation, you can’t chose when to escape, if you suddenly find your self being attacked by some monster!
And,there are Monsters , many , that cruise the Astral Realm. For instance, about a week ago, I encountered one I can’t even imagine where it originated from, or how it got that way! It attacted me, full body, like we were in a Boxing Ring , or some where. I was trying to punch at it, but I actually felt like I did not want to hurt it, but only defend my self! The Monster was in full flesh color, like we humans, but it was really grotess! It was very muscular, like a Gladiator, but it had TWO heads!! The head on its shoulders was oversized, too big for its body. But it had another small head, on the right side of its chest, over the heart, both heads had normal eyes, nose, mouth and ears, but no hair. As it came at me trying to hit me, and grab me, It never had any hands. It only had arms, or stumps, with the hands missing, as if they had been amputated! As it came at me, I did not want to hit it, in either face, so I smacked it in tne chest , near its smaller face so hard, I could hear the smack against bare flesh, and when I hit it, it immediately turned around, with its back towards me. The back looked normal, then, it turned back around really pissed off, and came at me again with its two arm stumps bobbing up and down. I decided to go back to Simran, and it vaporized, and I came out of meditation. Saved by the Names!! Now, had I been there by Ayawasca, ……..I might now really be in a Looney Ward!
In this morning’s Meditation, the glittering Silver White Diamond showed up at the Third Eye, after only about 15 minutes! I stabalized it quickly, and two faces appeared, one right after the other. First, the piercing eyes, then full face, both with beards, but not white, they looked about 35-40 years old, but each looked a little different, one appearing at a time, starring at me, but no other communication. I remember trying to recogise either of them, but could not remember having ever met them. Neither of them had Turbans or head coverings. . If I had to choose a face, both faces looked like the faces of Jesus, as some of the paintings sketch him. The hair was the same mixed grey and black as the beards. Actually, intellegent, friendly looking faces. But, as usual, they didn’t hang out long enough with me for me to ask questions, as Charan does with you.
Every Meditation time, has dfferent Portholes that remain to open, as long as I keep knocking.
No one may enter my Temple and remain there, but me, or who I invite to enter and visit.
Jim

@ Jim – I get paralysed at night and cannot move and then wake up. Think I need to mediate and no I don’t think you belong in a looney bin.
Leonardo Da Vinci saw the most horrible faves in a cave he wrote. Was he inside I wonder

Hi Jim!
When you see these monsters, what do you do? What is your approach?

Spence asks ..”When you see these monsters, what do you do? What is your approach?”
Me: As in the outer world, when we are threatened, our Program is Fight or Flight. So, same in the Inner world with our Astral bodies. As my above example, I first tried to defend myself with my fists, , but in other situations, I run trying to escape, but usually fall over a cliff, or a big hole, or out of the sky. It varies. When it happens in meditation, if I think to do Simran, the monsters usually vanish. But if it happens while in lucid dreams, I don’t think about Simran. I think Simran by passes Initiates from the Low Astral realms where these lower entities hang out looking to terrorize the tourists.
A few days ago, I was running away from something, and fell off a building hgh up, but managed to grab the edge of the roof with both hands, and was hanging there, looking down at an unending the deep abbess below! I never thought of doing Simran. But I could not lift my legs up to get back off the roof, and most as I was about to let ho and fall, I started screaming, “ Please Help me? Some one please help me?,A Strange man appeared, looked at me, taking his sweet old time, then reached down, grabbed me under the arms and pulled me up far enough to grab one of my feet, and hauled my up! I was obviously grateful, thanking him, then I returned back to my body.
Many such incidents happen, which I have never kept records of, but remember the important ones that have meaning to me, or recent ones as above.
A few weeks ago, in a Lucid dream, I had a real bad experience, I have not yet been able to process. I sure hope it was not a past life memory. But, I found myself standing in a crowd of people on the street, and spotting a man in the crowd wearing a green Jacket that I was drawn to. But I clutched a knife in my hands with open blade, and ran up to him thru the crowd and stabbed him in the heart and chest several times holding the knife with both hands! I never saw his face. Only his body below the neck. And, again, I surfaced, out of the dream, really agitated and glad it was not real. ……Or, was it real, in the Astral?
@ Arjuna,…you say you have dream paralysis. I also do, many times. Usually, I am traveling real fast with either my car or motorcycle, and am ready to crash in to domething, and my feet and hands are frozen! I am unable to move my foot to the brake peddle, or take the other off the accelerator, and I crash! Then, return to body.

Carl Jung looked at the subject of good vs evil in a very different light. According to him, one cannot deny the existence of the dark side in oneself.
Jordan Peterson: Embrace your shadow because its strength can guarantee peace
(3:45 mins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tskL4Ds66Yk

Hi Jim
You wrote
“I think Simran by passes Initiates from the Low Astral realms where these lower entities hang out looking to terrorize the tourists.”
Exactly. No need for regions 1 or 2 when you follow instructions.

Religious people believe in the devil. Satsangis believe in the negative power called Kal, who is actually “mind”. So how to deal with negative entities whilst meditating? By fighting with them? If it is our mind, then we are fighting with our mind?
Probably acceptance will help, that we are not perfect, that we have an inner dark shadow self and we can try to integrate this self by using acceptance. Human beings are very flawed and we can’t pretend to be anything better than anyone else.
How does one simply skip the lower inner regions where monsters dwell? What instructions to follow? Doing Simran and imagining some kind of saint or guru within who is going to save us? Maybe that will help. If some godly being does appear to help us, I would think that it is also a manifestation of a part of ourselves, our higher self.

If Simran becomes automatic, and our Astral body keeps doing it when the physical body is asleep, then the lower Astral plains get by passed even during the dream state. That’s why the Masters recommend doing Simran at all times, when ever the mind is running out. Until the Simran is grooved in our Astral bodies, then we are open to being harressed by all kinds of Astral entities.
As I said in the past, regarding Astral shells, where that soul has either moved on to the Causal Mind, or, reincarnated, and the Astral Shell has not had enough time to disintegrate yet, then earth bound disincarnated spirit entities, many spirits from other Dimensions that have never incarnated in human bodies, may take temporary resdence in Astral Shells, posng as that former person, and fool people who see them while Astral projecting, or by Mediums who channel these spirits. They may pose as relatives or friends, or even Masters, but testing these spirits with asimran will expose their fradulent mascerades.
Traveling the Astral realms induced by psychodelics with out guidance from any Spiritual Masters should be carefully researched, before deciding to enter uncharted Astal realms.

Hi Jen
Yes you are right. Some are surprised to hear that all the regions of hell, and paradise, are all in the Astral realms. It is immense. But it is just mind.
Since the Astral regions are all part of the karmic web and a reflection of mind one can look at all of it as part of ourselves. Whatever happens is karmic, and that’s the ripples of our past returning.
But we can look at this world in the same way we can look at the Astral and even Brahmand above it. Whatever happens to us wasn’t anyone else’s fault. Those Monsters are just carrying out our own orders. They were pushed to push us, and by our own hand long ago.
There is no ‘out there’ here.
If we really want to interact with others who are not actually our own projections, that can only happen in a place completely free of ego. That’s the third region. Here we all are subject to ego’s domination.
But it is also in that quiet place in the dark with our Master where there is nothing to possess, be proud of, react to. Just love, and respect.
And that we can experience anywhere.

How does one simply skip the lower inner regions where monsters dwell?
What instructions to follow? Doing Simran and imagining some kind of saint
or guru within who is going to save us? Maybe that will help. If some godly
being does appear to help us, I would think that it is also a manifestation
of a part of ourselves, our higher self.
I’ve always been afraid of monsters. Mostly those inside
who whisper “what if” or “just this once” or “We’ll start
tomorrow”.
Simran is good but it’s always felt a bit reactive and
calculated at times. Like a bedtime prayer you recite
mainly when it’s dark and scary.
What you need I think is a real “teddy bear” that never
leaves, Some kind of immersive friendship that shields
you from the monster’s attack before you have to haul
out your fevered simran. Maybe out of the corner of
your eye, you’ll see the monsters bouncing off the shield…
and you’ll share a laugh with your friend.
Of course, it’s easy to fantasize at this level what’d be like
to have transcended the need for simran. Even one of
Great Master’s evolved sevadars, Bibi Rakhi, was in trouble
on an Astral joyride when she visited “Hell” and was too
petrified to remember Great Master. Or even Simran.
Ishwar Puri relates that his family heard her screaming
and had to summon Great Master to pull her out. I seem
to recall this incident is mentioned in “With the Three Masters”
somewhere too.

Or even Simran.
Ishwar Puri relates that his family heard her screaming
FALSE
I know the three volumes almost by heart
Child-horror stories
giving a complete false idea of RSSB powers
Makes me think of crowley – only book i have burnt in the chéminé
777

The Simran of the Master IS the Master.
Reactive, proactive, gentle or angry or tempted. Say it any way you like. But hold tight to it.
And find your way through Simran into the Simran.
Move inside the Simran. There is Master and Shabd.
Simran is encapsulated Shabd.
There is no force in creation more powerful. Nothing can touch you. With the power of Simran you can rule the many regions of creation. Indeed you are as Master’s proxy, commanding them all, and honoring them all as you also worship Master, your true higher self.
But do keep your mind on Simran. And keep Master’s Visage before you, and His love in your heart. Make this your rejoicing, your work, your worship. Nothing can touch it.
From quantify comes quality.
Then you will see that Master is the one who has been worshiping you, day and night.

PS the effect of Simran to dispell the negative powers doesn’t take practice. That effect is instant. You just have to put your mind on it.
Jen, this isn’t fighting the negative powers at all. No conflict. It’s simply tuning the light on. Shadows automatically disappear.

What is the RSSB Initiate’s Jury verdict on using RADAHASOAMI Name for Simran?
In one of the books, “ Correspondence With Certain Americans”, Mahaweshri said that Radhasoami IS the Five Names! He said they are, ….RA DHA SO AM I.
Actually, he made some very good arguments in favor of using the Name for Simran. He said that Swamiji only gave out the Sikh Five Name “ Panch Nam” Simran to those he initiated, because he never found any one ready for Radhasoami until Rai Salig Ram came to him. He claimed that he started using that Name there after .
As I said earlier, I have added it to my Simran many years ago.
RA = Male + Polarity = IDA
Dha = Female – Polarity = PINGALA
SO = SHUSHAMNA = Entanglement
AM I = ANAMI
As I said, I used the Name alone, for about 3 months, before going back to the Sikh 5 Names, but kept RS as the 6th Name. Its now embedded in my Simran real deep.
I know there is another Sant Mat Branch that also uses the 6 Names for Simran, but can’t remember which.
When I was trying to sort it out for my own understanding, I always go back to the Sant Mat Chart, with the Realms shown as ending vertically from earth to Anami. I saw my 5 Name Simran being used as a YO YO, always bobbing up and down from Johti to Sat Nam and back, up , than back down, up, than back down, with out every ascending to the Goal, Anami, 3 Realms above Sat Nam.
If course, Sant Das’s argument about using the single Name was, that you start at the top, and remain there, so why even keep going back down 7 lower Steps instead of starting at the 8th, and staying there?
Any way, each to his own, but I settled the Conundrum for my self many years ago by using the 6 Names.

Spencer,
Nice one, I like this “… this isn’t fighting the negative powers at all. No conflict. It’s simply tuning the light on. Shadows automatically disappear.”

Spencer said: ‘Jen, this isn’t fighting the negative powers at all. No conflict. It’s simply tuning the light on. Shadows automatically disappear.’
Charan once said to us in answer to a similar question about negative entities: ‘Don’t try and fight the darkness – you will lose. Rather turn your face to the light and you automatically turn your back on the darkness’.
I have followed this advice when confronted by negative entities in meditation. It has always worked. Most of the time I remain indifferent to what I see, and it invariably dissolves. They are either manifestations of my own mind (which doesn’t actually belong to me), or entities of mind substance. At the end of the day, whether we project, or it projected from another source, it is all projection of mind in sub-astral substance.
Jim: I adhere to the names that were given to me to use until further instruction to the contrary. They have proved highly effective in collecting the attention in the forehead and moving it further inwards. I have not found the need to experiment with other methods. As Spence said, they are of the Master and therefore of the essence of what we are heading towards.

Hi Jim
I must concur with Pooh Bear.
When a dear friend gave me the hope diamond, as a gift from His own heart, I dare not add even the smallest rhinestone. Why infect what is divine with my mind, which is of a much lower region than that of Love?
From the Bible you know that Man was given the authority to name all the creatures, both men and women were given that authority. But no one dare name God.

To pooh bear,…I understand. But to me, it seems strange that our Philosophy is called Radhasoami, and we greet each other with folded hands with the Salute, ,” Radhasoami.”
Why do we do that, if we do not use the Name?
Have you ever read the Soami Bagh Books? If so, all of their Gurus present strong arguments.
It has been said here, and by other RSSBers that Jaimal parted company with the Parent Agra group because he refused to use that Name. But he MUST have been using that Name either alone, or in addition to the Sikh Panch Nam when he was initiating at the early Dera as a Satellite Branch for Swamiji.
I think MONEY was the reason he rebelled, and parted company with them, when they wanted the list of names of all of his Initiates, and is when they started haggling, up to the time when they said he was keeping several young Gals with him, and accused him of Hanky Panky.
Once he refused to turn over the list to them, he may have quit using Radhasoami Name, but if so, why did Sawan Singh refuse to incorporated Radhasoami Name when he was asking to be initiated by Jamail Singh? He either caved in and accepted the Name, or must didn’t give it to those he later initiated.
Any way, I don’t think its any big deal. To me, the Words are not Abra Cadabra. Sawan gave different words to the Moslems than he gave to the Sikhs.
The Simran is not White Majic. It is used as the tool to occupy the monkey mind from running out doing repetition on all of the ofher wordly thoughts, until the Star Gate appears, i.e. the Port Hole, or Tenth Door opening thru the Third Eye.

Hi Jim
When a woman says “I do” to her husband at the marriage ceremony, those two words have an authority and a power that comes deep from within that woman. Never before or after do the words “I” and “do” have any meaning or power that comes close.
The white magic is from within you. But if you do not honor your own promise, then is there even a marriage in your heart?

Jim let me put this another way.
If you cannot hold your Master’s command as sacred, you will not be able to use Simran for the purpose of controlling the mind. You haven’t given those words power greater than your mind, hence they will not be able to help control and focus the mind.
All that is in you, your own subconscious.
Jen said earlier why give your power to anyone else? But if you do not hold to your own promise as sacred, then lower mind with all its doubts has now stolen all the power of your own subconscious higher mind.

Spencer asks Jim,…”The white magic is from within you. But if you do not honor your own promise, then is there even a marriage in your heart? ”
Jim answers,…: I have never been a Fundamentalist. I improvise, as I move forword, ( or backwards) and let my conscious ( Inner Master ) pull my chain.
Truthfully, we all started with good intentions, when we took the Vows, but we took those Vows expecting only by Faith, that we would receive the promises.
But after not receiving those promises after a year or so, then after 5 years, 10 years, 20-30 years, still not receiving what we imagined we would receive, we improvise and comprimse along the way. Some a little, some a lot, many quit altogether, as proven in this Church,
But I bet, very few, if any, keep 100% of the Vows promised at initiation after two years!
If there is any one reading here, that lasted a full two years, keeping the Vows 100%, then please share your Wisdom with us.

FALSE
I know the three volumes almost by heart
I am humbled… the incident was probably pre-1942 so
wasn’t there. I’m sure I have seen it elsewhere in Sant
Mat literature however.
Child-horror stories
giving a complete false idea of RSSB powers
I’m not sure what you mean by “Child-horror”? Or
why you feel the power of Shabd is limited.
Ishwar Puri relates the incident here:
https://www.ishanews.org/media/transcripts/eng/Meditation_Is_The_Lifestyle.pdf

Hi Jim
The issue is the recognition of our failings. When we failed to get results did we blame the path? Or look for ways to improve our own approach?
When the chemist didn’t get the results he read about in the journals, did he claim it was wrong and spend his life trying to come up with a different formula?
Or did he scrutinize his own equipment and method?
And seeing he had not complied with the exact formula, than tried harder to do so, and seeing incremental results, realized it was his own method, the tools and cleanliness of his lab, his very control over the conditions that was at issue.
With each fall, Jim, I took the above approach, and now my faith, proven by my failures and renewed efforts, is stronger than ever. Because experience doing it wrong, then right over and over has proven this so.
I did fall, many times. But I got up one more time.
So just keep working at getting to your promise. Take your life, and the next doing so. It will be the most efficient way beyond Brahm, even par Brahm.
No one gets into the Lord ‘s house rewriting the Lord’ s instructions. Only the Lord gets to do that.

And Him, one more point.
I received the Grace directly, not because of my success.
It was in the middle of tremendous and visible public humiliation from my own actions, and my repentance, they Master came to me.
My shame, He forgave. So now, of course, I never want to leave His gaze.
I became a child, and a fool. But I gained immensely. His love is far more valuable than my judgment about anything.

FALSE
I know the three volumes almost by heart

Ah, ha! I withdraw my concurrence. Although Bibi Rakhi is not
mentioned by name, the incident description clearly suggests
it is there.
See “With the Three Masters, Vol 2”, entry 1st July 1945
(page 72, last paragraph):
Huzur Maharji said think there is no such thing as hell and
…

I tried to make the well known point that any army of creepy spirits even when they fill a whole galaxy
, compared with a Saint
they are together so much less than a virus on the left leg of the flee on your shoe.
This seems exaggeration but it is the basis of the Path
You MUST believe it and not believe what you described
Further to involve and allow these thoughts, . . . .
Gurinder said recently :
Stop making videos all the time, . . .
Try to listen 90 % of meditation time to the sweet sound, which makes sense
Even when you see that above army coming to you
SAY TO THAT FLY TO GO ASIDE AND PREPARE FOR THE SOUND COMING
They will shrink as snow flocks in Agust Salt Lake City
777
I was once a murderer and you cannot beat me there, . .
these silly morons missed the train you took and are proud of it and their ego
little bit like some

Hi 777,
Your post is a bit cryptic. Were you commenting re: Bibi Rakhi
incident?
You end with this… which if I remember correctly mirrors one
about Nina v. Stauffenberg at the train station in an earlier
thread:
I was once a murderer and you cannot beat me there, . .
these silly morons missed the train you took and are proud
of it and their ego little bit like some

Who missed the Train??
“Train of love’s a coming big black wheels a humming
People waiting at the station happy hearts a drumming
Trainman tell me maybe ain’t you got my baby
Ever so often everybody’s baby gets the urge to roam
But everybody’s baby but mine’s coming home
Now stop your whistle blowing ’cause I’ve got ways of knowing
Your bringing other people’s lovers but my own keeps going
Train of love this evening when she’s not gone she’s leaving
Ever so often everybody’s baby gets the urge to roam
But everybody’s baby but mine’s coming home
Train of love now hasting sweet hearts standing waiting
Here and there and everywhere there gonna be embracing
Trainman tell me maybe ain’t you got my baby
Ever so often everybody’s baby gets the urge to roam
But everybody’s baby but mine’s coming home
Train of loves a leaving, leaving my heart grieving
But early and late I’ll set and wait because I’m still believing
We’ll walk away together though’ I may wait forever
Ever so often everybody’s baby gets the urge to roam
But everybody’s baby but mine’s coming home”
Songwriters: Johnny Cash

Good catch Dungeness
Good feel Jim
Mix these two but first listen the Beatles “She is leaving home” :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dypv4SLyAfg
Rarely I heard so fine tuned the panic, detresse, the pain, the attachment, the horror
Missing the train of Love in my feels is to have found the base of all Loves
the sweet Sound , generated by 5 words, . . generated by the SatGuru
Wherein the leaving daughter copied something triggering her parents tears ?
It is a tiny copy of this massive train we can take or miss
If you take it , . . even you know the daughter is safe ( parent’s Love _wise )
This applies to all happenings in life
Imagine you fall in Love Jim, this evening ( yes I know it will not happen) , . . this evening
or the day before yesterday,
and you can never have her ! – She is 40 years younger . . .
Imagine the pain
Now dive in the Sound , In the SatGuru, in the words
and wow , what will happen
relativity
I can’t be more clear
It applies to every situ in Life you were born for
Don’t miss the train exers
after all this church_stuff , try to catch what you yet can
Listen the song again
777
ps
No, I was in India a kind of Head of Blackwater for the english invaders
I used to place ‘terrorists’ before a canon , next shooting
Then a certain Seth Shiv made met my then sister ( now my wife )
the rest I explained here some years ago
HE said : You know your hell bounding; . . . I propose a more profitable deal
777

To 777,……..
Love is the strongest attraction for all of us, but “Some One” must love “Us” in order to FEEL that strong mesmerizing, hypnautic heart expansion. Love is FELT in the heart, not in the head. Love is blind, and love blinds all who are taken prisoner of its Rays.
But,…….Love Proves Duality exists. Other wise, one has to love one’s self, and that doesn’t happen.
In Duality, we experience Love, ( if we are lucky) in many different forms.
For me, the very first time I laid eyes on my Wife, my heart exploded? Bells rang, Lighting Bolts flooded my eyes, and I lost all other former attractions for other females I had ever dated. In fact, I was engaged to be married to another, and broke up with her immediately! A year later, I eloped with my present Wife, and my Fate was cast! Daugher, Son, Bills, Work, Mortgage, binding me to the blindnest of love, and keeping me in the prison of Marriage. As I said prior, “ Love starts with a big swelling around the heart, ( and other locations……!! ) and ends sooner or later with a big pain in the Butt.” But, it appears, all love in Duality ends, with impermanence, but what then?
Fraternity, Family, Nationality, Religeon, all contain various Rays of love. Some of us experience some of it, many experience none of it.
Rejection is the most difficult emotion to accept in Duality. Divorces, Wars, torture, are end results of rejections.
The Bible states,…” We love Him, becuase He first loved us.” 😍❤️😇

Continuing about Love,…….
Every one has heard about it, but few have ever really understood how it feels.
777 gives the example of falling in love with some one 40 years younger, but you can’t have her. You might be able to “have her”, if you have enough money and position. (Trump, or Huff, ) the Playboy Founder that had his Harem of Bunnies. Imagine when he had so many beautiful Bunnies, he could no longer buy enough Karets to attract them and his carrot withered away with age, and he died. Were his desires fulfilled?
What is real sad is, falling in love , and loosing your love to another, watching it happen, knowing that some other will have your love!
As I said, rejection is more bitter than never falling in love.
Imagine how it feels to be rejected by a Master after applying for Initiation, after falling in love, as some Posters here have experienced. Of course, they all rationalize the possible reasons for rejection, but the scar of rejection will never heal.
Now reverse the situation, .(…Exers ), and consider how your Master first loved you, enough to accept you as a Desciple, but now, you have rejected his love.

What is this ‘Love’ you people are talking about. There are so many versions, for example I fell in love when I was a teenager, totally intoxicated and devoted and overcome with this emotion called ‘love’ in every moment of my life. And then of course he was unfaithful and that was when I woke up. I eventually found the man who became my husband, a lovely decent satsangi fellow and that was a different kind of love.
I imagine this intoxicating kind of love that people feel for the Master is similar to how I felt when I was young and totally insecure and its a kind of needy type of love when we give away our ‘self’ to another. Imagine how the poor and desperate ‘low caste’ Indians feel, of course they are going to fall in love with this kind gentleman who is going to save them and help them in their lives.
I don’t think I fell in love with the Master, it was just that needy kind of wanting to escape this world and being looked after by another and now I don’t believe in it because I think its all fake. These gurus play on the insecurities of people. I think that maybe those people who are totally engrossed in their love for the Master are actually projecting their own inner soul onto another.
My strongest love has been for my children. I think thats the best kind of love because its about caring and is totally unselfish. I don’t believe that the Master first loved me. He didn’t even know me, like I don’t know him. Its imagination, we believe in what we want to believe in.

Jen writes,,,,,”Imagine how the poor and desperate ‘low caste’ Indians feel, of course they are going to fall in love with this kind gentleman who is going to save them and help them in their lives.”
Me: Sitting in the front almost in front of the Guru at the Dera last Oct., I also could not help thinking similar thoughts, when I looked back at the throngs of admiring young, old, male and female faces, seperated on each side, mesmerized by Gurinder Singh’s face on the huge Moniters, 10 x 12 feet, estimated. Every slight blink of his eye, or facial gesture was iluminated, including him caressing his beard and pulling his moustach out of his mouth. The Isles were so long, I could not even see the rear of the rows of people sitting on mats. I do imagine how the young feel. They have not yet experienced life, love, family, travel, or even 10% of the experiences I had experienced before I came to tne path at age 45.
Its mind numbing to even consider weather the Path might be all a trick of the mind. But if it is, I had 45 years first, whereas the young 25 year olds have not even found out who has Truth yet. They only respond to what others who have gone before them say, usually, their family and friends, who are thier Social retreat.

Hi Jen
You wrote
“What is this ‘Love’ you people are talking about?”
And then you proceed to describe your own experience of love in various forms, and to evaluate each of those, projecting the lesser form, emphatuation, upon Satsangis.
Consider the possibility that there are also higher forms that you have not yet experienced.
If that is remotely possible, then how can we be so sure to project our limitations upon others?
It’s natural to do so. But, when the light of dawn arrives, everything looks quite different.
Love of children may not be selfless.
Selfless isn’t simply serving others but more, when we don’t think of ourselves at all.
If love of children were truly selfless we would experience that for all children. And our life would be spent on serving any child in need with equal vigor. Every room would have a foster child, or an adopted child if that love had only to do with the child and not the fact that it was “My” child.
We would do as Jesus said, and invite the disabled and the destitute even to our parties, If our love had nothing to do with “Me”, and “Mine”.
But because “I” truly love “My” children, then “I” am still at the center of that. Even if I say it is only as a duty that I serve them.
But in all cases, the awakening to the idea that I am neither the smartest nor the most loving is the first step to acknowledging there may be more going on. And that higher ethic then becomes a worthy goal to strive for.
Progress to become what you are not yet isn’t weakness. It’s strength.
The caterpillar who dreams of becoming a butterfly isn’t mistaken, weak or foolish. They dream as they were meant to. Their dream is the highest ethic.

Hi Jim
You wrote
“Its mind numbing to even consider weather the Path might be all a trick of the mind.”
If only anything were “mind numbing” that would actually be a good thing.
If we can sit and quiet our mind, then we generally think more clearly.
Although it isn’t numb. Then, it is simply still, and nimble, balanced and attentive.
So many things become clear when we put aside our own thinking and take an honest and dispassionate look.
Then questions are answered.
And we don’t have to conjecture or wonder.

Hi Jen
You wrote
“What is this ‘Love’ you people are talking about.”
Can it be something outside your experience?
Can love ever be something more than we are? Larger, purer?
Or must it always be tainted and flawed?
The caterpillar who dreams of becoming a butterfly may be ignorant. They may have no idea why they dream this way. But it’s the right dream. It’s the truth. It’s their destiny. It’s a good dream grounded in reality even if that caterpillar and its entire caterpillar family has no idea how.

Hi Jen!
You ask
“What is this ‘Love’ you people are talking about”
The caterpillar dreams of becoming a butterfly. Every one of its caterpillar friends says ‘your delusional.’
One of them experiences that love, though they may have no idea how or why. The others, well, how do you explain it to them?

Hi Jim!
You wrote:
“Imagine how it feels to be rejected by a Master after applying for Initiation, after falling in love, as some Posters here have experienced. Of course, they all rationalize the possible reasons for rejection, but the scar of rejection will never heal.”
1. No one is rejected. All are accepted. But the process takes several lives.
2. No one even thinks of God without God’s permission and His hand.
3. The brave, fearless and faithful look upon temporary setbacks as a beautiful lesson, and that is a life success skill in all endeavors.
4. Everything painful isn’t bad. Everything pleasant isn’t good.
5. If you are not ready for that beautiful young lover, to bring them into your home, to spend your days gazing at their beautiful form, and working to make them a home, to provide for them, then you waste their time and yours.
6. It is a poor attitude, a prideful attitude that then blames the innocent young lover.
7. God is always the innocent young lover.

Jen writes: “Jen writes,,,,,”Imagine how the poor and desperate ‘low caste’ Indians feel, of course they are going to fall in love with this kind gentleman who is going to save them and help them in their lives.””
Yes, that’s how it works.
As for those “poor and desperate ‘low caste’ indians”…. I suggest that they may actually be as smart as you and I…What a thought!
Us white Europeans have a little growing up to do.

Jen writes,,,,,”Imagine how the poor and desperate ‘low caste’ Indians feel, of course they are going to fall in love with this kind gentleman who is going to save them and help them in their lives.”
I can’t tell if they are the victims of a false guru, or the white Europeans (who judge them as inferior and ignorant) of the tyrant in their own subconscious.

My strongest love has been for my children. I think thats the best kind of love because its about caring and is totally unselfish.
Great Master echoed that sentiment about unselfish love.
There’s also a story in mystic literature though about a villager who dotes
on her granddaughter until a buffalo whose head is stuck in a feed can
wanders into her house at dusk. The granny is frightened and, mistaking
the animal for the “Angel of Death”, screams “No! Not me, you must be
looking for my granddaughter.”
But, even if love is rarely genuine, I think we all know deep down it exists.
We crave it and, without it, we wither and die. I think in the beginning it
has to come through friendship. We also crave that and it’s a precursor.
I don’t believe it’s neediness at all. It takes the greatest strength and
perseverance to follow a mystic discipline for instance – to repeat simran
for years. Maybe we don’t understand “love and devotion” but we can
repeat simran or recall an image through dhyan. And even if that’s lost
for a moment, we can still feel we have a friend inside. Because, if we
don’t have one, we’re truly lost until one is found.

When I came to The Christian Christ,……I was invited to “ Come just as You are, with out one plea……”
When I came to tne Sant Mat Christ, I couldn’t come until I,……
1) became a Vegetarian
2) quit drinking alcohol
3) quit smoking Weed
4) quit using Drugs
5) quit sex unless I was legally married,….
6) If married, sex only for procreation, not lust
7) had to promise to meditate 2-1/2 hours a day.
8) had to attend Satsang
9) had to read a list of RSSB Books
Of course, I could have lied about accepting all the above, as no one checked or monitered me. But I was told by Satsangis that Master had X- Ray Vision, and knew every thing about me, so if I cheated, he would know it, and with hold his Radiant Form from appearing to me.
I never read labels when I ate in Restaurants or interrogated the Waitresses to ask the Chefs if there was any on the Contraband ingredients in the cakes or pastries.
Of course, I always had a guilty conscious of coming up short, and I figured that was why Charan never showed up inside for 26 years. I tried additional time in Meditation, and read more books, but it didn’t help. There certainly must have been too many eggs in some of those pasteries I ate!
So, I wonder if Chirst only catches and accepts clean souls, or does he catch them , and then clean them up himself , after he accepts them?
Charan’s normal answer would be,,,,”Brother, ask Him when you see Him.”

Jim
Real progress happens when you can just sit in the darkness without needing to see anything or anyone, but in an overwhelming sense of gratitude feel His presence, and then in time hear the divine music and truly see your Master.
Stages, acceptance. Once you accept where you are, you can enjoy being there. Then there is no where else to be. Then you won’t want to be anywhere without your Master.
So progress begins with acceptance, and even enjoyment that you are exactly where Christ has personally placed you.
Then you really start seeing real things. Because they are His gifts, not your desire.

Hi Dungeness,
Nice comment about love, devotion and friendship. You say its not neediness but takes strength and perseverance to follow a mystic discipline. I’m pondering on that now.
I suppose if we were already filled with love then we would be a saintlike person anyway and not needing to follow a mystic discipline, and so, the perseverance is about stubbornly following some mystical path until we are filled with love. Yikes.

Hi Jen
You wrote
“I suppose if we were already filled with love then we would be a saintlike person anyway and not needing to follow a mystic discipline, and so, the perseverance is about stubbornly following some mystical path until we are filled with love. Yikes.”
A sadu in college taught me a very good lesson that has proven true.
When studying becomes boring, stifling, and the last thing you want to do is read the next sentence, that is when learning actually begins.
Until you push through, even barely understanding what you are reading, crawling through one word at a time, and can, even for a few moments, sustain effort, no real learning happens. And when that ‘aha! ‘ moment happens, it is fantastic.
That is when my GPA went from 3.5 to 4.0.
Same in meditation. Same in any profession. Love only gives you the reason to do it. But whatever the reason progress always seems to require substantial perseverance and all the effort, however painful, behind it.
Who goes to a gym just to meander abour?

Hi guys, this is what I resonate with…
There was something formless and perfect
Before the Universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the Universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.
-Lao Tzu

JIM How You cab writes this after so many years of giving guidance
“””What is real sad is, falling in love , and loosing your love to another, watching it happen, knowing that some other will have your love!
This is about attachment, not Love
JIM, JEN
I meant a Love that only wants to give, . . no(t) need(s) to receive, . . Nothing at ALL
It happens in very simple forms
So
I tried to make clear that you never need to lose such Love, You just can’t
because You cannot lose it

It can only increase
Even if the beloved kills you or worse
it doesn’t matter
It’s rssb love, the target
_Result of the great SSS COMBI

Shabd/Sound Simran Saint
777

Hi Jen!
Love the Tao
The name to which mankind may hold
Is not the eternal way.
Eternal truths cannot be told
In what men write or say.
The name that may be named by man
Is not the eternal name
That was before the world began
Or human language came.
In that the namable took root,
The tree of fire and force,
Which, having blossomed and borne fruit,
Returns then to its source.
Who warms his body at that fire,
Sees nothing but its smoke;
But he who puts aside desire,
The flame’s self may invoke.
The Tao of LeoTse
Find the eternal Name!

Hi Jim!
You wrote:
“So, I wonder if Chirst only catches and accepts clean souls, or does he catch them , and then clean them up himself , after he accepts them?”
Paul gives us the answer:
“5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”
Romans 5-12
“For if you….”
IF, not a given, contingent on YOU doing something.,,
“live according to the flesh, you will die.”
How you choose to live. Your choice. No one else’s responsibility.
“But if by the Spirit you ..”
You that’s not Master, Jesus or anyone else. It’s YOU.
“By the Spirit”
You must use the Spirit you were given. And so you must be IN that Spirit, familiar with that Spirit, able to understand and USE that Spirit.
No one else’s job but yours.
“Put to death the misdeeds of the body”
Can’t be done by your will, except that you use that Spirit. It’s the only means.
But the job to do it is YOURs….burning karma, burning sinchit, using the Spirit.
IF you actually have conscious access to the Spirit.
Forget faces and people in other places, here or elsewhere (esp the Astral)…
You can be a tourist anywhere on this earth outside or inside, but if instead you use the Spirit to put to death the misdeeds of the body, then…
“You will live.”

JIm…that was Romans 8:5-12

Spence, I like your latest comment…
“You that’s not Master, Jesus or anyone else. It’s YOU.
“By the Spirit”
You must use the Spirit you were given. And so you must be IN that Spirit, familiar with that Spirit, able to understand and USE that Spirit.
No one else’s job but yours.”
Going to remind myself to practice focussing on the inner spirit and not the ego self, every moment of the day! Quite a challenge but a worthwhile pursuit imo.

Jen, we can never escape Spirit no more than fish can escape water.
https://youtu.be/xGD_BFSf90c

LOVE =
LEVEL – OF – VIBRATIONAL – EXISTISTENCE
❤️

Hi Jim,
I like and agree with “Love = level of vibrational existence”.
I live a very quiet life and I like the mindfulness practice, being in the moment and practising awareness, kinda feeling one’s inner being observing life in this body. Cheers bro 🙂

Hi Jen!
🙂

For what ever its worth, ( most likely, not much here), these few Bible Verses, from a copy left in the night stand of my hotel room, in Valley Forge, PA., April, 1977, is what I read, that opened me up, to receive the first powerful Initiation I experienced in this life. I read it, my heart opened, I fell on my knees, and asked God to take all of my guilt, forgive me for all of my past sins, and to send Christ in to my heart and to take over my life. Looking back, it really was a powerful Spiritual event. I really changed so completely, that it was as if the old Jim died that day, and the Spirit of Christ walked in. That was the first rung on Jacob’s Ladder. I am still climbing. The bigger the guilt, one carries, the more powerful the Initition effects the receiver of Christ, i really, really, needed Him when I cried!
“Romans 3:22-24 Living Bible (TLB)
21-22 But now God has shown us a different way to heaven[a]—not by “being good enough” and trying to keep his laws, but by a new way (though not new, really, for the Scriptures told about it long ago). Now God says he will accept and acquit us—declare us “not guilty”—if we trust Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, by coming to Christ, no matter who we are or what we have been like. 23 Yes, all have sinned; all fall short of God’s glorious ideal; 24 yet now God declares us “not guilty” of offending him if we trust in Jesus Christ, who in his kindness freely takes away our sins.”

–
Instead of scripturing
mixed with personal vulgarities
seek the Sweet Sound
as tiny as it might seem first effort
It will be more than all ever written in this galaxy
777

To 777,…Should I follow Gurinder’s example?

Jim
He gave you the word freely, if indeed you received initiation.
Now you must use it as instructed. (Romans 8:5-13)
No one’s job but yours.

777,
How is it okay with you that Gurinder speaks “vulgarities” ?!

The SOUND.
Yes, the Sound is the Shabd, Word, Vibration, Ringing Radiance, Creator, ………as we are told by Sant Mat Masters and Books, but truthfully, 777, since you seem to be the most vocal preacher of the Sound, if after you die physically, and loose your body, mind, and all consciousness , except the Sound, which would by the only possession you retain, will that satisfy your desire enough to remain in the Sound, ONLY , for Eternity? Be honest, and don’t spin it, because the Bible promises to give us the desires of our hearts.
Also, when you espouse the Sound, you suggest that only you hear it, and I and others must not have the Sound you hear. I have posted many times, that I hear it 24/7, and the Audio increases more, as I meditate more. Imhave heard it drmthe laat 30 years. ( that I am aware of )
But to me, I am greatful to be connected to the Sound, because it verifies I am connected to God, and the Master. But I also am interested in the rest of the Gifts of the Spirit as well.
Search “ Gifts of the Spirit” in the Christian Bible, if you have any interest at all, for any other Gift than Sound. ( or my blog)

If I had been at the Dera and heard Gurinder talking about sexual intercourse in a revolting way I would have been disgusted. Maybe I am more pure than this so called Master. Lust is one of the five deadly sins. My idea of a true Master is someone who is enlightened and pure in every way.
So Jim, were you being truthful when you told that story about the 69 stuff or were you delusional at the time? I need to know because your story made a huge impact on me.
What has the “SOUND” (which I hear and experience constantly) got to do with anything. Everyone has that inner connection with the audible life stream, not only some egotistical satsangis.

How is it okay with you that Gurinder speaks “vulgarities” ?!
Someone with a pure mind can utter any word
Even Jim ( and you ) would smile
when a 4/6 year old would use these expressions
May I point out b tw that the word ‘vulgar’ is french means: very common non intellectual non spiritual
( connected with the word Plebs ; street language )
Jim used it around December last week
accusing me and a Karim and others ( except him ) , in the American sense exposing his thinking/mind set
I never said that I ever enjoyed licking or sucking a vagina – I never liked that – always refused requests
for me that is the opposite of lust –
So this ball bounces back to the speaker who apparently finds all this sensational
and I feel now Gurinder sensed it too
Jim, You never answered my 2 times question : Did you tell Madame Sutherland , right after the reunion
I think you couldn’t answer this truthfully without exposing yourself
I guess that Jim was/is hurted by my relaxed European attitude about sexual intercourse and our
lowest chakras and my mentioning cam4.com
There is no Sin there except when it is considered a sin in the mind
I see Gurinders remarks as telling a voyager for Melbourne
not to dwell on Amsterdam to much because you might
arrive way later at the planned destiny
777
PS
and much more important
Why you think I always say :
Sweet sweet Sweet Sound ?
Elixer, amritsar, , élyséeen, nectar, orgasmic ( above the eyes )
And yes : Every 7 chakras entity , when attending. . . , will hear it

To Jen,……YES, ….Gurinder said Exactly as I quoted him, on another thread. Also, my reaction was exactly as I felt. It was not only WHAT he said, but HOW he said it, and WHY he , GIHF, had human rectums and mutual Oral Sex positions on his mind in such a supposedly Holy Spiritual Retreat Center with his foreighn Guests present, who came there to hear and get answers to Spiritual Questions. And even sadder, was the chuckling and laughter of both females and males afer Gurinder asked the man if he knew what a 69 was? But the man first said he was soon to BE 69, i.e. his AGE, but then, Gurinder took the remark to Sex, which must have been what was on GIHF’s mind, and not the man’s age! And when the man became embarressed, ( as we all were), Gurinder never apologized for making porno jokes to a Spiritual mixed Audience of foreigners. The man, ( and audience) “ could” have taken his but joke , or 69 joke either way, i.e. heterosexual or homosexual,..! And it was not only me who felt embarressed, as another Anonymous poster posted, in the thread, that what I said was correct, and verified, because He also was there, along with others he knew, who were also embarressed. So, no one can bury that incident under a rug and say it didn’t happen. They mght delete the entire exchange from any recordings, but not from the memories from those of us who were there. So, I was not “ delusional” Jen. But I was, disappointed. Once he mentioned the 69 remarks, the fact that he asked the man if he knew what a 69 was, I could not then, help thicking about his throat cancer, and wondering if he got it by smokng tobacco, ….( which I doubt ) , or by doing Oral sex,…..like The famous American movie Star, Michael Douglas did.
To 777, yes, I did tell my wife about it, and she made a couple of remarks, such as “ I can’t imagine how you ever got invloved with these people.” But, she was never in to Sant Mat, so had ZERO expectations of Gurinder being any different that any other Indian we saw during our prior 12 day tour thru India. And again, 777, yes, we Americans do have an old Bigotry joke, that most likely was carried over from WWII,….” The French fight with their feet and F—- with their faces.” It is quite a common joke among older people like me, who were alive when our WWII Vets came home from France after fighting there. As for what I do in our bedroom, …..not much, …..but think about getting up to pee again. Doubt if you do much more, either at your age, other than brag. Hope I answered your questions.

If we have ever indulged in sexual intercourse without the aim of conceiving a baby,
how do we think that we are rightful to point fingers towards the Master ?
I remember a letter from Spiritual Gems (2).
A disciple asked the Great Master:
“Does the Master always know what’s running through our minds and what we are thinking”
And the Master replied:
“Disciple always wish that Master should not know, but the face is Master does know slightest of the though which is going through the disciple’s mind”.
Master confronted the person and embarrassed him for his good,
to make him aware that HE is aware of what’s on his mind.
Master wanted him to wake and get rid of the sexual involvements at this age now.
A Teacher, a master of the subject, always know all the possible mistakes a disciple can commit,
pointing a disciple’s mistake openly doesn’t mean that Teacher’s mind is occupied with that.
And personally I find it funny that we expect that the Master to not even know anything about 69,
however I believe we all surely know the subject pretty well.
To those who are against the Master for this remark:
Have you ever watched a porn ever ?
Have you ever watched a 69 porn ever ?
If your answer is yes, then you are sure to have been embarrassed by the Master’s remark, not for the reason that the Master has used that remark, but because of the fact that remark was not only working for the asker but also for you… and also for us all.
Similar to when a teacher in the class shames a child for his mistake openly and every other child who has committed the same mistake feels ashamed and also sympathises with that child and hates the teacher for bringing that in public.
We need to think again and evaluate our own state than HIS.

Oooh, Oh Jim
Did you never realized, the whole scene was not for the Butt, but man , . . but for You Sir.
When , -as you described so fanatically, hysterically the indulgences were SO Intense
and you said more than once here that you were SO glad , . . she wasn’t there
then Why you told her immediately
and triggered that answer , you knew beforehand
Without Monsieur LaFayette and his 10 000 rifles, canons, soldiers, that day, . . there was no Jim, neither Madame Sutherland , . . neither any The United States of America
Please tell that the insulters
My PSA is 0,9 ( please note : less than One ) by His Grace
777
Considering those 12 days India extremely fruitful

This is becoming a Pornsang, instead of a Satsang. You continue watching your porncams, 777, and posting the links here. We all know where your Darshan is focused on now. That sound you claim to be hearing surely isn’t originating at your Third Eye. You are fooling yourself, but not me.
And OI, I don’t buy your “ Master knew what that man was thinking anout, not for a second. The sex thoughts were in Gurinder’s mind, not the man’s. The man was discussng Nutrition, not sex. He was completely innocent. Gurinder master baited him first, by changing his proper use of the English word, “ but “, to first, human anatomy of Butts, that could have been either female, or male, but then Gurinder used the man’s wife’s Butt making it a personal, embarressing non spiritual remark. If he had quit right there, at that point, it could have been laughted off as just a locker room boy’s joke. But, when the embarressed man countered Gurinder, saying he no longer even thought of his wife’s Butt, because he would soon be 69, HIS AGE! Gurinder then took it to the next level, making it porn, saying what most innocent decent Satsangis might say in his same situation,….Oh, Master, ….Masters aren’t supposed to talk about those things. Sure, any one old enough to masterbait knows what a 69 is, but that doesn’t mean they came to the Dera to discuss porno with the GIHF in front of the entire Mixed Audience! Any of you Satsangis that give Gurinder a pass on that conduct are surely hypnotised, I wouldn’t leave my Daughter in the same room alone with Gurinder Singh now! Charan and Sawan Singh would be totally embarressed ( and should be ashamed ) to even have been mentioned in that room with us, let alone made such comments.
Happy Pornsang, I’m out of here!

Can’t You admit anything ?
Not even about the french ?
… or disturbing your wife with that “dirt”
To hot in the kitchen ?
777

The reason why the satsangis sniggered when Gurinder made the remark is because of their feelings of guilt.
A true Master is more evolved than someone who makes these vulgar remarks.
……………..
From One Initiated:
“To those who are against the Master for this remark:
Have you ever watched a porn ever ?
Answer: …….. NO
Have you ever watched a 69 porn ever ?”
Answer: …….. NO
I am surprised One Initiated, why would anyone dirty their minds with porn? Especially initiated satsangis who are on a path of purifying and elevating their mind.
……………..
Jim says: “This is becoming a Pornsang, instead of a Satsang.”
So true.
777 showing his true colours imo – yuk

Hi Jim
You asked
“if after you die physically, and loose your body, mind, and all consciousness , except the Sound, which would by the only possession you retain, will that satisfy your desire enough to remain in the Sound, ONLY , for Eternity?”
Word alone is eternal.
The Lord is that highest of sweet sounds, and this Word is the path to Him.
Taken up to the third Heaven, what could draw attention away?
Drinking clean pure water, who would turn back to dirty (mixed with worldly desires)?
Then time within, with Master is the only place we want to be, though we honor our duty here.
But it can take time to reach that true Word of Christ.
“13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. ”
Hebrews 11:13-16
If you really want stuff, you can always come back.

Happy to see so see a lady gurmukh of my age
Sister, . . you are not alone
You could pray for the low end disciples like me
At last these ‘gaddi’ remarks will be way over now
777

777 you say,
“Happy to see so see a lady gurmukh of my age
Sister, . . you are not alone”
Thank You! I mean that even if you are being a little bit sarcastic!
I was being a bit mean. So… much love to you brother and everyone here on this blog.
Happy inner journeys for us all 🙂

And some sweet sound as much as possible
I all the time think about
the One line ( 2 or 3 ) at the start of every Charan speech
Everybody wants happiness – Why are people unhappy
Because they are attached to temporal things
Just Buy a Ferrari
Bless You ( if u like 🙂
777

For being more clear and on Jim’ s sarco
Never have any arousal there – not low
The Sound is swelling – not louder – swelling is a better word – or more explicit
See the Masters as always – they smile – Also in the eyes of the girls –
Sound starts like douching on some of them
Yes – Our words become ‘manifest’-er – like faster but is not
It is like Darshan from Charan – without the slightest energy required – you flif to the crane
It s like automatic meditation
When young I had something like that but different
I still have
Like you see persons and they laugh or busy but I see that they cry !
Even on TV : I see a lie – with politicians so often
In this case Sound starts douching on them – like when U pray for somebody
They need so much –
Yes underwhile : appreciating enormously their bodies – quelle beauté
I cry
That’s what I forgot and much more
Master so amused
No single sexual gratification – no thoughts about that
Must think about Jim and his frozen orthodoxy
If he knew . . . how to judge . . . Better not Jim . . . It harms you
777

–
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XniJE5d6LA&feature=share
just a song
777

Dear Spence – In regards your last response from our last discussion re. Chand, that was a very kind & generous response, thank you very much!
Hi Jim – Yes, I’ve noticed you mention Jurgen Ziewe a few times! I read his book some 10 odd years ago…I thought I had mentioned his book & my impressions of it on the RSS forum at the time, but doing a quick search I cannot find any mention of it until around 2015, when I believe I simply stated I had “mentioned this book years ago….” or some such. I must have imagined writing about it or posted it to another forum which I’ve now forgotten (very possible)! If I am being entirely honest, I find there is a vanishingly small audience of peers that I personally would be interested to discuss “OBEs” or “astral projection” with, despite it being something I have been utterly fascinated with since I was aged about 10, have read every western book written on the subject (pre-2005ish, say), had countless experiences with etc. If I am being frank, I simply haven’t had the opportunity to discuss this with a forum/audience/person that I personally feel has enough depth & breadth of experience with the deeper levels of “astral projection”, “OBE”, “visionary experience” etc, to even begin to understand my own experiences, let alone teach me something new I don’t know, guide me, offer insights etc. I suppose I have to state here my truth; I have found RS initiates *especially* to be paddling in the shallow end of the pool, and thinking it’s an ocean. This is, to me, a staggering realisation! So many lofty, exclusive claims have been made about the RS practice, it has come as somewhat of a surprise to me as an adult, that RS followers have consistently been amongst the least well “inner travelled” people I have ever encountered in these circles, as well as, without any doubt, the most elitist & delusional about the uniqueness, specialness etc of their own experiences! I have not been remotely “impressed” or intrigued by the recollections of any initiate’s recollection of inner experiences whatsoever, ever! The very, very best of them, I have found, are preliminary inner experiences, all revolving around the imagined individualised “self” (or “soul” etc). Soamji’s descriptions of Anami, I find, somewhat approach the deeper experiences I’ve personally had, yet still I find his interpretation of them lacking in sophistication and insight, and deeply, deeply mired in baseless, unexamined dualistic dogma and ideology. Outside of RS, persons such as Ziewe or Campbell, I guess, are the closest I’ve felt there is to “peers”, although there are still differences in our experiences (astral projection is not even a remotely accurate word to describe the nature of the self, identity, vision, reality etc that is experienced/encountered during deeper levels!). Basically, I keep my experiences, insights and thoughts about such phenomena to myself, as I don’t think they are understandable to the vast majority of people. For example, the possibility that the concept of inner experiences of “past lives” are literally “true” (inner, visionary experiences tied to an illusory idea or concept of an individualised “self”, progressing sequentially and linearly through time etc) is completely obliterated as utterly absurd during even the middle-range of profound “Inner experiences” (as I’ve tried to express numerous times, yet failed as it is clear people are unable to even intellectually conceive of what I’m saying, let alone have personal, direct experience of it!), let alone the even deeper levels where it is completely impossible for such ego-centred illusions to gain any kind of foothold on reality! Again, the visionary experience of a “past life” is, in my experience, a very basic and deeply misleading experience (of which I’ve had countless & of numerous types……as a child, pre 20s). It is the paddling pool of inner experiences whereas reality is a vast ocean, completely incomparable really. But, to each their own, your mileage may vary, etc etc. Anyway, that’s me. As I say, to each their own, most of us require a comforting narrative, even if it has no basis in actual, deepest reality.
I was really posting about your most recent comment, where there is the suggestion you will not be posting here anymore due to the responses you’ve received to your recollection of events with Gurinder at Beas. I just wanted to say that is a shame, but before I do that, a quick caveat; Whilst I entirely disagree with a whole host of your beliefs and conceptualisations, and occasionally am concerned by some of your perspectives, such as around the “issue” (is it an issue at all, really?) of Jewish posters for eg., I think more generally you are a very decent & sincere person, with an interesting history and life story! I think it would be a shame for you to feel in any way “hounded” off this or any other forum by over-zealous and dogmatically inclined followers of any guru or religion, especially followers of a guru/group you yourself have personally followed for years, been initiated into and praised on online forums for decades! That is, truly, a shame. More is revealed by those who have the courage, honesty & sincerity to think for themselves & change their minds (over periods of years), not shut down their own minds in blind and mindless obedience. I hope you reconsider posting again!
I think your experience, specifically in context of your posting on this forum before you went to Beas and then upon returning, and all the comments you’ve received from the mindless RSSB followers both pre and post your experience, has been incredibly revealing of the human condition, faith, belief etc in general – but possibly insights outside of the scope of the current conceptual models of most people reading here (ie., “does not compute; ignore” etc).
As a somewhat detached, “objective” (although that is an ultimately absurd and illusory concept, usually held by those of the scientific belief-set – scientism – for example, as there is absolutely no such thing as “objective” without a subject anywhere in creation/existence) person whose only interest is the “truth”, nature of reality, the human condition etc (and I can appreciate <0.1% of readers here would agree with me! But these are undeniable aspects of my reality & “path” to me personally), I have found your experience a great “teaching tale”, albeit an entirey predictable one!
Before you left for Beas, I note there were numerous RSSB followers here who confidently, “knowingly”, with a wink, suggested not only you would find joy, truth etc, but also sceptics like Brian would if only they'd go too.....I mean, after all, such is the magical power & grace of the “Master”, with over-flowing & powerful capabilities of convincing, converting even the most sceptical persons. How can anyone resist the power & light of God’s only representative in the entire tri-loka?
Yet, when you returned with your deep scepticism (bravo on staying true to yourself & your values and not disengaging your own mind like some sort of mindless automaton! It speaks volumes about you as a person), suddenly all the blame was yours and yours alone! The alleged unfathomable grace & power of this Marvelous Godman was swept away by the feeble & insignificant power of your intellect & mind! This is an intriguing state of affairs, a strange conception..... one could say almost incoherent, like the ramblings of mindless believers & followers, vacuous noise containing no reality or substance at all, wishy washy “just so” stories that change just as easily & frequently as the British weather.....
This is how mindless adherence to religious dogma and authority operates. It is, or at least should be, extremely clear there are followers of cults, religions, gurus etc for which there literally is no action, behaviour or revelation of any sort that would disprove their beliefs. In science, if a theory is not falsifiable, then it is worthless. A question for those with a penchant for mindless “following” is, is there anything, anything at all, that could falsify your beliefs?
As somebody who has deeply researched the origins of beliefs, specifically the numerous influences on modern RS doctrine and dogma, it is extremely clear to me the archetype of the “Satguru” is meant to demonstrate & indeed literally personify several mythical energies/archetypes, two basic fundamentals of which are – historically speaking – an absolute rejection & antithesis of lust and monetary wealth; Dayal (grace, mercy etc) and naam are contra-energies to maya (illusion, worldly wealth etc) and kaam (lust).
It seems our current personification of these primal mythical currents is, errrm, completely contradictory to their actual essence. A semi-billionaire who simply cannot stop making inappropriate (to his stated mythical position and purpose) sexualised comments during satsangs & Q&As and has a penchant for imposing structure/building (again, the anti-thesis of the "liminality" - completely without structure - which is the hallmark of all true mystics & shamans throughout history) !!
A simplistic – yet mindless, I might add – rebuttal to these is obvious; A dangerous and singular anecdote, almost certainly untrue, told about Kabir and his pretending to consort with prostitutes to test his disciples' faith. Yes, in this way any abuse or inappropriate danger is readily excused and ignored, even if there is no proof or indication the rationalisation-away is accurate or true in any sense; it is simply the default & utterly unquestioned position to excuse the guru of any possible faults or flaws or mundane humanity! (numerous RSSBers have suggested Gurinder's "69" comments were hidden, mystical messages from Gugu to you or the other, confused fellow. Yet, as I recounted over at the RSS forum a few weeks before you posted your experience, these sexualised/flirting "messages" from Gurinder are a recurrent theme throughout his entire tenure as guru, suggesting these thoughts are actually reflective of his state of mind, rather than targeted "messages/teachings" to select individuals. Though of course it can be suggested plausibly, though barely so, that this is a general "teaching tool" of his, unique amongst all "Satgurus" of the "Dayal" current....Osho and his system, for eg., Gurinder is not!)
The 2nd excuse, this time for our modern gurus excessive & obscene wealth – never once before witnessed in the entire history of “Satgurus” who personify the “Dayal” current of “Divine Grace” (the anti-thesis of worldly wealth and desires) – is the anecdote of Raja Janak. Nobody questions why, out of the thousands of “Satgurus” in the mystic “Dayal” current – it is actually a fictional, vedantic disciple who was never a “Satguru” who is the only example of such a person? It is simple – because real “Satgurus” of the “Dayal” current simply have never been, or will ever be, so obscenely rich, or even mildly rich – it is the anti-thesis of their energy. That is why there are thousands of examples of poor “Satgurus”, and only one mythic example of a vedantic mystic who wasn’t even a “Satguru” that was even mildly well off!!
On a personal level, I don't follow or believe in any of these conceptual models I am discussing - whilst there is great truths within the Dayal/Kal, God above God/Demiurge cosmologies, things which encompass many aspects of our human reality, I believe - based on experience - that even they are limited in scope and encompassed within a greater reality that is not touched by such dualisims. I am merely stating the obvious in that Gurinder, whilst a guru (due to family inheritance) in a Dayal/Kal cosmology, he appears to have all the qualities more associated with "kal" and never associated with Dayal's Satgurus. Rationalise - or not comprehend that - to your your discretion....
Anyway Jim, I just wanted to say thanks for sharing from your heart, it took great courage to do so, and I have found it fascinating & revealing in it's own way. I don't know if you will ever choose to post here again, I certainly hope you do, but regardless, thanks & all the best on your journey brother!
Manjit

Great post, Manjit, lots to unpack there. On the topic of Jurgen, I wonder if those readers also familiar with the Sant Mat cosmology saw a parallel in his account. Where he details his furthest and highest experiences in the first book?
He basically enters a massive structure with exits leading out to heavenly universes, and is told by an unseen Master that he is right to want to go further than these exits. Personally I would have stayed put, so fail!
At which point Jurgen moves on and gets involved with ‘waves’ from an ocean of purifying bliss etc. But so intense that he can’t merge into it.
Because in Sant Mat, the top of Trikuti is supposed to be a ‘fort’ with 9 out of 10 exits going laterally, and 1 exit leading ‘up’ to a lake of purification, Mansarovar?

Boy o boy.
That’s some serious explanation.
An exaggeration on the top of others’ state of mind and experiences.
Love is missing, Ego is winning, over and over again, and yet again.
In actuality, nothing more than a pre-primary kid trying to explain how a professor should teach.
Other kids gives a nod,
Professor is smiling behind the curtains.

Hi One Initiated
To magnify on your point, Manjit wrote earlier
“On a personal level, I don’t follow or believe in any of these conceptual models I am discussing”
I find Manjit ‘s comment hilarious and spot on for most of the posters here.

And Spencer,
If we remove the clutter:
“I don’t follow but I am still discussing”
which is: I am contradicting myself, I am cheating myself.
It’s like trying to do 69 without a partner,
he will never succeed, I bet 😉

Hi One Initiated
Yes agreed.
Why spend any time discussing what we don’t believe?
I find his remark, and your decoding of it, comedic.

Like
I’m so glad , i don’t like apples
because if I liked them, . . I might eat them
and that would be horrible because I don’t like them at all
77

meditation :
At best the Sound_Combi goes UP to indescribable levels
and the doer knows He is THAT SONG and always was and will be
and that he created / is creating the Universe
You see that no single correction is needed
Each Soul receives the utmost of what She can take
777

Hi Peter, thanks for your comment! I wonder if you’d care to share what your history, experience and interest with these subjects is?
You write: “He (Ziewe) basically enters a massive structure with exits leading out to heavenly universes, and is told by an unseen Master that he is right to want to go further than these exits. Personally I would have stayed put, so fail!”
&
“Because in Sant Mat, the top of Trikuti is supposed to be a ‘fort’ with 9 out of 10 exits going laterally, and 1 exit leading ‘up’ to a lake of purification, Mansarovar?”
Thanks for mentioning the quote…..I can’t actually recall much of Ziewe’s book as it’s been a while, I really should go back and re-read it actually!
Your point/question is a truly fascinating one, as it opens up a whole Pandora’s box of further questions & implications. I’ll address two that come immediately to mind, and they are somewhat connected in essence.
Firstly, it seems you’re describing “daswan dwar”, literally translated as “10th door”? This term, in itself, is quite fascinating & revealing when taken from the RS “Sant Mat” theology. In Radhasoami teachings, “daswan dwar”, or the lake of “mansarovar”, “trikuti” etc, are placed at the “3rd region”. In RS cosmology, the first region, Sahansdal Kanwal, is considered to be above the body/head, which suggests this “10th Door” of Radhasoami mat is considerably above the body and “3rd eye”, or “tisra til”.
However, this term “daswan dwar” has a long history, and very obvious bodily connotations which contradict this attempt to conceptually elevate Radhasoami mat and cosmology above all others, even those it is a direct descendant of (tantra, kundalini yoga etc). The Buddhist “Siddhas” mention this “daswan dwar”, as do the hindu tantrics, as the secret hidden opening WITHIN the body…..obviously so, as the 9 other gates are the standard 9 openings of the human body, it only stands to make sense this “10th gate” is within the body, not vast & unimaginable regions above it!! This is a perfect example of how Radhasoami mat has taken millennia old teachings & terms, then shuffled them about, cosmologically speaking, simply to make RS doctrine elitist.
It is worth noting that in the Sikh holy book, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, several times the Sikh gurus make it clear the “daswan dwar” is IN the body. The RS cosmology that places it above Sahansdal Kanwal, and therefore way, way above the tisra till – it’s not even in the body! – is clearly lacking any integrity and is deeply muddled.
The second point your comment raised, is far more complicated. It is the nature of our visionary experiences and how they relate to subtle ideas, conceptions, beliefs, intentions etc we already hold. I’m at work on lunch and running out of time to do this subject justice, but I’ll give it a quick shot! What I’m getting at is, is how the nature, dynamic, content, form, symbology etc of our inner experiences…..and I mean this as fundamentally & radically so, not just the mere appearances, but the very core of the experiences themselves, their structure & directionality, is deeply guided by our own minds, perhaps our subconscious minds as conscious awareness doesn’t really even matter. I don’t mean to imply it is all “made up”, but rather that our minds colour all our perceptions of “reality”.
I’m running out of time and not really explaining myself well! What I mean is, I totally understand what you way was Ziewe’s experience, it makes full sense and reminds me of numerous experiences I’ve had myself. However, I’ve had so many diverse & completely unclassifiable experiences across vast scopes that you get to the point that you realise it’s utterly preposterous to even attempt to structure, classify, make sense of logically in some sort of cosmology etc (these are all flights of dualistic fancy the rational ego clings to) thse experience……they’re not showing you “reality out there”, but rather the astonishingly & awe inspiringly infinite, flexible nature of your own mind/being/soul/consciousness, that it is truly limitless & without any boundaries whatsoever!
Honestly, you could write dozens of very long & complex books just expanding on this paragraph above, I’m really not even beginning to open up the point, but I don’t have time!
Cheers Peter!
Hi One Initiated / Spence / 777 – thanks for your comments, they are genuinely wonderful! The toothless and desperate air around them speaks volumes!
:o)
Manjit

Volumes of shit probably.
A sanity correction:
The incident where the Master tested HIS disciples’ faith,
by climbing up to the prostitute’s room belongs to Shah Inayat Ji (the Master of Bulleshah Ji).
It’s very easy to abuse HIM.
putting bad words for HIM.
Time to show some kindness on our own
and seal the mouth for betterment of our own.
When you will, it must be realised upon:
that It’d be much much better
to put a stray dog’s shit in our mouth and seal it;
instead of putting bad words for HIM.
The more we laugh, the more we will be laughed upon.
Hope you receive and taste the shit soon,
also get amazed to instead feel & realise the elixir.
Shit happens; Elixir too.
Will happen with me; and so with you.
Uncountable goosebumps and extremely high wavelengths of breath
all in HIS (Gruinder Singh Ji Maharaj’s) constant remembrance and love.

Hi One Initiated!
You wrote, in amongst other garbled stuff: “Hope you receive and taste the shit soon”
Hehehe… :oD You are truly priceless, thanks for the laughs!
You also wrote: “A sanity correction:
The incident where the Master tested HIS disciples’ faith,
by climbing up to the prostitute’s room belongs to Shah Inayat Ji (the Master of Bulleshah Ji).”
Ah, that’s the thing, I’ve read and heard so many thousands of stories & quotes from so many thousands of mystics in so many iterations that by the time I was in my late teens, I could probably recollect & recount them in my sleep without even paying attention! You may be referencing some story (almost certainly, I suspect, because you bear all the hallmarks of somebody whose only source of information is official RSSB literature……I suspect the story you mention is in the “tales from the mystic east” publication and/or in one of the books which contain Sawan’s satsangs? That rings a bell, but I haven’t read those books in 20 odd years). However, the anecdote, apocryphal tale I reference is the one at this link, for example:
https://www.jagatgururampalji.org/way-of-living/40-test-of-disciples-by-god-kabir/
“Even after repeated advice of God Kabir Ji, the devotees kept forbidding that girl from coming to Satsang, and used to give excuse that – “Because of you, Guru ji has become defamed in Kashi. The people of Kashi repeatedly say to us that – “Even a prostitute visits your Guru Ji. What sort of a Guru he is.””
And that’s the point – the huge, elephant sized point that you transparently evade – that these apocryphal tales (it doesn’t even matter who the guru is, they very often change around anyway and there is almost always no actual source of basis for the stories in actual reality!) contain very simple morals, perhaps morals that contain some truth, but they are also used by to justify abuses & unscrupulous behaviour. It is left to the sagacity of each individual to discern the validity of using an apocryphal tale like this to justify years of Gurinder’s sexualised comments & flirting with women during Q&As……
As to your previous comment: “n actuality, nothing more than a pre-primary kid trying to explain how a professor should teach.
Other kids gives a nod,
Professor is smiling behind the curtains.”
Be careful, that is a more appropriate metaphor than you may realise. It didn’t end so well the last time some guy claiming to be all powerful and magical hid behind a curtain, smirking at kids……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubIpoPjBUds
I think this sums up both your posts, and your thinly veiled threats, quite nicely :o)
Cheers!

Manjit cool writings. But may i ask you. Do you suggest one should leave meditation and path under Gurinder? I once read that you said you miss dream control and inner smells in rs meditation. I have both. And traveling inner worlds and fighting entities and so on . and i know inner traveling is different than mere descriptions in the books. I hope you can say something on this theme and do you tottaly ban rs under Gurinder..btw i had only great experiences with him.peace

Right…I tried posting this 3 times the other day, but nothing appeared! One last time – it still didn’t appear! I will change my name & email add. to see if that makes a difference……I would leave it, but Moon / X has asked a question I feel I should answer, but I won’t bother typing one up it won’t get posted…..so, one final time:
Hi One Initiated!
You wrote, in amongst some other ramblings: “Hope you receive and taste the shit soon”
Hehehe… :oD You are truly priceless, thanks for the laughs brother!
You also wrote: “A sanity correction:
The incident where the Master tested HIS disciples’ faith,
by climbing up to the prostitute’s room belongs to Shah Inayat Ji (the Master of Bulleshah Ji).”
A “sanity correction”? In amongst all the numerous & important issues I raise, THIS is the point you feel most
pertinently addresses & impacts the “sanity” of readers? Hmm, an “interesting”, if somewhat Freudian, take….You know your point has hit home, and hit home hard, when the only critical response from those who are highly emotionally invested is to focus in on the minute, pedantic and completely irrelevant, and even elevate that inconsequence to “sanity correction”….
Ah, that’s the thing, I’ve read and heard so many thousands of stories & quotes from so many thousands of mystics
in so many iterations that by the time I was in my late teens, I could probably recollect & recount them in my
sleep without even paying attention……and I certainly am not, and have no need to, pay attention discussing these things with you as it’s hardly profound, thought-provoking wisdom & insight you’re getting at! You may be referencing some story (almost certainly, I suspect, because you bear all the hallmarks of somebody whose only source of information is official RSSB literature……I suspect the story you mention is in the “tales from the mystic east” publication and/or in one of the books which contain Sawan’s satsangs? That rings a bell, but I haven’t read those books in 20 odd years). However, the anecdote, the apocryphal tale, that I referenced is the one at this link, for example:
https://www.jagatgururampalji.org/way-of-living/40-test-of-disciples-by-god-kabir/
“Even after repeated advice of God Kabir Ji, the devotees kept forbidding that girl from coming to Satsang, and
used to give excuse that – “Because of you, Guru ji has become defamed in Kashi. The people of Kashi repeatedly say
to us that – “Even a prostitute visits your Guru Ji. What sort of a Guru he is.””
And that’s the point – the huge, elephant sized point that you deafeningly evade – that these apocryphal tales (it
doesn’t even matter who the guru is, they very often change around anyway and there is almost always no actual
source of basis for the stories in actual reality!) contain very simple morals, perhaps morals that contain some
truth, but they are also used by to justify abuses & unscrupulous behaviour. It is left to the sagacity of each
individual to discern the validity of using an apocryphal tale like this to justify years of Gurinder’s sexualised
comments & flirting with women during Q&As……
As to your previous comment: “in actuality, nothing more than a pre-primary kid trying to explain how a professor
should teach.
Other kids gives a nod,
Professor is smiling behind the curtains.”
Be careful, that is a more appropriate metaphor than you may realise. It didn’t end so well the last time some guy
claiming to be all powerful and magical hid behind a curtain, smirking at kids……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubIpoPjBUds
I think this sums up both your posts, and your thinly veiled threats, quite nicely :o)
Cheers!

Manjit you have my email

Cheers your …
there is no reason for me to cheers with you right now.
I hope there will be soon.
The best thing we can laugh on today is ourself.
You didn’t raise any issue,
you are just being tricked by your mind.
To blame and using the bad words for the Masters.
Each and every line you posted till date is a waste of time,
for anyone in the world to read.
Because the stand you are on right now, is about abusing the Masters.
You more or less consider yourself a master unknowingly,
based on your inner experiences,
you have fallen into the pit of ego, and covered it with guilt,
and you portray yourself as all knowing of others’ experiences,
and also to the extent that you do know b/w Dayal and Kal masters.
which is again a fine trick of the mind.
If you retrospect (if you can).
you will find yourself as being trapped by Kal big time.
I hope you will realise it sooner once you open up yourself.
I would not want to scare you,
because I would not want you to taste the shit,
because I don’t want to taste the shit,
because there is no difference between you and me.
But, if it has to happen, it will happen,
because you are making it happen right now.
That’s all about the perspective Manjit.
And perspective is it which will change you,
only when you change it.

Hi One Initiated.
I have noticed several mental health issues among the posters here. Have you?
That perfect and infinite ego that cannot tolerate any feedback or variation of opinion without having to make personal insults reflects a very damaged, isolated and vulnerable personality.
And yet to find this to one degree or other is not uncommon, and we share feelings of empathy with such folks.
Do not mind their lengthy monologues. They are working out something within themselves. And who, really, isn’t?
So I say “Well done Manjit. Proceed forth!”

Hi Spencer,
I agree with you, I do have… on purpose though.
I also agree in the universal fact that
By insulting anyone, I am insulting myself.
And that is true for everyone.
Until THE day, what else a manhu being deserves though ?

In ALL of this , listen to Buddha”s main “sin”
TO CHANGE OUR OWN CONSCIOUSNESS AND NEXT BELIEVE IT”
Like GuruGranth JapJi says :
How then to be true , How to rendthe veil of shame Untruth ?.
The Answer on the next line :
Please follow what’s ingrained in us , . . our consciousness ( Le petit voix )
It should be followed by any cannibal before each meal
(last time I mentioned each Auschwitz kapo)
Ask ourself if it’s really true what I write, . . do I really believe that
Is no ego forcing us to . . . .
further
Is it necessery ?
Is it nice ?
777
btw : I believe when it happened the modifications
my lines will not change a thing
only correct RSSB MEDITATION can
which brings Buddha’s remark to Charan’s remark about
a sin against the Holy Ghost
How could it ever be forgiven
Please make a list of our opinions and if we really believe them ? Jim?