Is Radha Soami Satsang Beas a scam?

Evidence, or rather the lack thereof, points strongly to the latter possibility as being much more likely. I meditated diligently for thirty-five years and never saw any sign of the guru’s divinity that the RSSB teachings describe. And I’ve never heard of any demonstrable or convincing evidence that anyone else has either.
I can’t speak for RSSB but the mystical tradition has always slice ‘n diced its pupils. Expectations of visions, petulant demands, tearful tales of disappointment are immediate casualties.
Discipling the mind is a daunting task with serious meditative practices demanding hours of daily mediation over a lifetime. The demonstrable, convincing evidence has to be
something internal — a greater focus, stillness, increasing awareness of the here and now. These are the ‘divine goods’ – who cares about being in the ‘lap of God’ or whether some spiritual warranty is valid.
Bashing RSSB or any mystical path seems suspect to me. If most pupils experience nothing of value, then the practice will implode on its own. Asserting that the path fails to provide evidence seems unsupportable to me. Surely evidence has to be a do-it-yourself validation that the practice has some value for you personally — not some Guru’s demo of his own divinity or promise of shepherding you all the way back to God.

“Surely evidence has to be a do-it-yourself validation that the practice has some value for you personally — not some Guru’s demo of his own divinity or promise of shepherding you all the way back to God.”
—This statement, I could agree with. The so-called evidence can and could be created from within someone’s own duality. That said, an evidence/validation, I can find for myself could come from engaging in numerous religions and spiritual groups practices. I don’t have to go to RSSB or a guru to get such. Main point, my validation is one of duality. I’m not going to play games with myself.

Dungeness said: ” who cares about being in the ‘lap of God’ or whether some spiritual warranty is valid.”
–Well, if you make certain vows and devote your life to a path (RSSB) that calls itself a science and that guarantees results within four lifetimes (the warranty) then it would behoove you to determine if the warranty is valid before avoiding egg whites (an RSSB vow) and spontaneous extramarital sex (another RSSB vow) with a beer (another RSSB taboo) toting co-worker for the next four lifetimes.
Dungeness said: “Bashing RSSB or any mystical path seems suspect to me. If most pupils experience nothing of value, then the practice will implode on its own.”
–Suspect? What do you mean? Like we’re part of some conspiracy to bring down a fake path? How about the conspiracy of RSSB to exploit followers on the basis of its false promise? That isn’t suspect? RSSB may or may not implode on its own. People are willing to stick with it, despite the exploitation that is plain to see, because it gives them hope and a dream to aspire to. They feel taken care of by the supposed all-powerful god-in-human-form guru.
Dungeness said: “Asserting that the path fails to provide evidence seems unsupportable to me. Surely evidence has to be a do-it-yourself validation that the practice has some value for you personally — not some Guru’s demo of his own divinity or promise of shepherding you all the way back to God.”
— Yes, it is purely subjective. I can’t prove the guru isn’t what he says he is, or that believing in some illusion is not without value to someone. But c’mon man. If someone makes fantastic supernatural claims, common sense dictates that you remain sceptical without evidence. If I told you I had a space ship and could take you to a paradise planet where you would live for eternity in bliss, would you believe me without evidence? If my price for this ride was your standing on your head for five years (except for bathroom breaks) would you do it without at least seeing the space ship and that it really worked?
Maybe you like standing on your head. Go for it! I ain’t stoppin’ ya. Just giving my opinion. I could be wrong. I admit it. But here is a list of things the guru is supposed to be able to do:
1) Is able to traverse all the internal regions, astral, causal and beyond to the seventh heaven at will. In fact, the guru is indeed believed to be God-in-human-form with all the inherent powers that are attributed to God.
2) The master “takes on” his disciples karmas and is able to administer the disciples’ karmas, pralabdh and sinchit, in the most efficacious manner for the disciples spiritual release. He is able to, if it is his mauj (will), reduce the impact of a karma from “a swordthrust to a pinprick”.
3) Is always aware of each individual disciple and is able to assist them if need be from his seat in their third eye. The disciple is never alone. The master is always with them even when performing bodily functions or dying in a car crash.
4) Installs a radiant form of himself in the third eye of the disciple which will serve as the disciples’ guide through the vast inner regions which are full of traps and pitfalls in the form of allurements such as siddhis (supernatural powers). It is said that without the guru’s help, it is impossible to cross the Maha Sunn, a region of great darkness and Bank Nal, a rotating spiritual cave.
5) Will come at the time of death to aid the disciple in his/her transition to the non-material and place them in an inner location best suited for their continued spiritual progress.
6) Is able by his grace at any given moment to bestow upon the disciple spiritual experience, transformation, and release.
7) Is able to discern by some esoteric means the souls that are marked for his care and supervision.
8) Once under the guidance of a PLM (perfect living master) the disciple is guaranteed guidance to the care of the PLM in subsequent lifetimes should it be necessary to take future physical rebirths to resolve their store of karma.
9) The master is beleived to be “Perfect”, whatever that means, and does not make mistakes. He can do no wrong. All his actions, even such things as having a runny nose, have some spiritual purpose for the benefit of the disciple. For example, after initiations if the master has a cold it is believed that is because he has taken on so much karma that it must manifest or be expressed in some way.
I could go on, but isn’t this enough? Are you buying it? Would you buy it? Would you advise others to buy it?

tucson,
Liked your comment above.
I noticed,
“For example, after initiations if the master has a cold it is believed that is because he has taken on so much karma that it must manifest or be expressed in some way.”
—What karma did Charan take on when he was suddenly suprised by the barking dog? You related that story awhile back. When Charan (a GIHF) was for a moment frightened(scared out of his pants) by the dog, did he absorb some karma thru that hurtful experience?
Ha ha…..I know i’m being silly….Roger

Hello everyone. A friend showed me this blog and it is very interesting. However i have very strong faith in Radha Soami. I grew up with my father, who is a professor, in England and i would always remeber him mediating dilligently for hours a day. I always asked him what do you see? what do you hear? he always told me “child wait your turn.” Then i would also ask “Dad how long do you have to medidate to see God or the master?” he would tell me “child if you want to count hours. then it would take millions of lifetimes. Our mediation is like taking a shovel and striking the ground in search of water. He told me with only His Grace will you return home.” Now my father passed away couple years ago. But what really solidified my faith was the evening he passed away. It was a normal evening and he took me into the room for a private conversation. He then told me it was his last hours in this Earth. He told me live an honest and moral life and do not get to attached. I personally am not trying to influence anyone and whether you chose to credit my experience it is up to you. Thank You

I could go on, but isn’t this enough? Are you buying it? Would you buy it? Wo
uld you advise others to buy it?
But buying theories (or advising others) isn’t really the issue as I see it. Of course, some are more credulous than others. If someone’s initially dazzled by GIHF, doppelgängers, soul/karma shepherding, etc., they may be enticed to begin the hard, relentless labor of looking inward, of trying to focus their attention, anchoring in the here/now, and stilling the raging mind. Then the journey’s worth taking, even if, they’re characterized as one of the “naive millions”.
But c’mon man. If someone makes fantastic supernatural claims, common sense dictates that you remain sceptical without evidence.
To pre-empt the journey by demanding a priori proof may resonate with some; others, not. They may remain totally skeptical but almost certainly benefit from the inwardness and meditative discipline.
Tara: Discipling the mind can also be done through the practice of music, martial art and other disciplines that require time, perseverance, patience and practice.
Sure, but I believe those are more circumscribed disciplines whose goal is primarily to hone skills in a particular art. The mystical path is more comprehensive and demands focus, stillness and immersion in the ‘now’ at all times. As I understand it, there’s a far greater commitment of time and effort and often requires a very strict lifestyle as well

quote Nietzsche from the Antichrist
“….one must know today that a`theologian,
a priest, a Pope does not merely err in every
sentence he speaks, he lies – but he is no longer
free to lie ‘innocently’, out of ‘ignorance’.
The priest knows as well as anyone that there
is no longer any God, any sinner, any redeemer-
that free`will, moral world order,are lies…
intellectual seriousness no longer permits
anyone not to know about these things
All the concepts of the (Catholic) Church are
recognized for what they are: the most malicious
false-coinage there is. The priest is recognized
for what he is: the most dangerous kind of parasite,
the actual poison spider of life.”
I would like to add thst I grew up Catholic
and went to Catholic School. They never
taught me about the tens of millions of
people they murdered during the inquisitions, or conquistadors.
I have been initiated by 7 Radhasoami Masters. Includes Charan.
My whole family in the last ten years
has died, while I was present. No radiant
form of any Guru came to any of them.
There was no withdrawel of the spirit
which caused the sting of 1,000 scorpions,
as Darshan claimed.
Nothing the Gurus has told us is true.

“stilling the raging mind”
“time and effort”
quote poster
These are the great traps of the Guru.
The raging mind can be stilled temporarily.
But, it returns. By trying to still the mind
the “WHO” (self) is waxed.
The ‘raging mind’ can never be stopped
until the realization of no self (WHO).
Thaought is not the problem, no matter
how fast it moves.
The ‘WHO’ is the problem.
But, what happens when one realizes there
is no ‘WHO” (self) that can stop thought ?
That no ‘WHO’ exists.
The WHO (self) is a belief of thought.
This WHO belief controls our lives and thoughts.
Impersonal thought, personalizes itself into a WHO belief.
The problem is we never turn around and
look directly at thought.
We use thought, supress thought…. all
our lives. But, we never take a single
thought and look directly at it.
All thought is net neutral…harmless.
No matter how fast it twirls.
So, ‘WHO’ makes thought evil ?
‘WHO’ is thinking ‘your’ thoughts ?
Can a ‘WHO” be found ?

The Toolbox of Our Minds
We open the tool chest and find hammers,
screwdrivers, knives, saws.
These tools can be used to build…
or …. to kill.
The tool is harmless in itself.
And, thought is harmless in itself,
used as a tool of man to function.
Man cannot function without thought.
Why do we try to get rid of thought
with yoga, drugs, nada, etc ?
The Guru has told us to suppress thought
to still our ‘self’.
But, if thought is a harmless tool, why
suppress thought ?
The Guru himself has failed with nada and
inner planes to kill his desires. How will
you succeed, where the master has failed ?
Will not you become just another saintly
hypocrite ?
Is there a fundamental way that will change
this world without suppression and resistance ?
We are afraid to loose our ‘selfs’.
But, what if we never had a ‘self’ (WHO) ?
How do you get rid of a ‘self’ that never
existed ?
How do you get a ghost out of your house ?

Dungeness: “GIHF, doppelgängers, soul/karma shepherding, etc., they may be enticed to begin the hard, relentless labor of looking inward, of trying to focus their attention, anchoring in the here/now, and stilling the raging mind. Then the journey’s worth taking, even if, they’re characterized as one of the “naive millions”.
–IF there is a destination then the journey may be worth taking. Otherwise I hope they enjoy the ride because I think the journey IS the destination. This is it. There is no other place. IMO.
“To pre-empt the journey by demanding a priori proof may resonate with some; others, not. They may remain totally skeptical but almost certainly benefit from the inwardness and meditative discipline.”
–You are assuming that “inwardness” and meditative discipline is beneficial. If we are speaking of RSSB, I personally think their meditation technique is not beneficial. That is a subject for another time. Bye.

Janice,
Thanks for your message.
–What was your father a professor of?
Regarding meditation experiences, your father would reply with,
“child wait your turn.”
“he would tell me “child if you want to count hours. then it would take millions of lifetimes.”
then, you stated,
“But what really solidified my faith was the evening he passed away.”
–Just curious, what happened on that evening that could solidify your faith?
–Is a solidified faith, the foundation of hours of meditation?
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

I said to Dungeness (above): ” If we are speaking of RSSB, I personally think their meditation technique is not beneficial. That is a subject for another time. Bye.”
–That other time came in the form of Mike William’s three comments above. I am completely comfortable with those comments and feel he covered the subject quite satisfactorily. Thanks to him, I have nothing to add.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/statbelief.htm

Hi Tara, Roger, Tucson
I can see you people have already figured
out that a search is worthless. My hats
off to you people.
You have figured out Saints are evil.
If you look at Faquir Chand, his final
step was to ask himself WHO he was.
Faquir Chand asked himself if he had not
created a web (of his RS teachings).
The fact is, he had. We can ask our selves
WHO we are up front.
Faquir did not realize the state of no self.
He said he was a drop of consciousness.
Consciousness was proven temporal by science, an effect not a cause of evolution.
Enlightenment is defined as the “Realization
of No Self”.
Now RS tries everything to go beyond and
sublimate the self. To still and kill the self.
But, there is one problem. The self doesn’t
exist, even before we try to get rid of it.
We were trying to get rid of something
that never existed.
Any attempt to get rid of the self by nada,
sublimation and supression will fail.
These things only wax the idea, or myth in
our minds, that we have a self which can be gotten rid of.
You people have figured this out.
But, this stubborn myth haunts us, even when
we see intellectually this is true.
Only each person can see for themself how
their brain personalizes impersonal thought.
We have been hypnotised since birth. No
amount of good logic will convince a person
he does not have a self.
When Yogananda decided he would be a Guru
teaching surat shabda yoga, the first thing
he studied was messmerism.
The Guru teaches us self hypnosis. We constantly think of the Guru and repeat the holy names.
We become oblivious to reality.
Walking ZOMBIES.
Our family and friends try to help us,
but we simply won’t listen.
I have tried to use Occam’s Razor approach
to simplify enlightenment to its core
basis.
To come to common terms easily understandable to the average person.
So, it can be repeated with clarity.
That way it can be explained to other people.
They can see directly why all search is futile in no uncertain terms.
They can see that they can think for themsleves.
People have no confidence is themselves.
People are scared.
Remember when we were involved in these
horrible cults ? Remember how people treated
us nice even when we were deluded ?
There will be thousands of deluded people come here to this club in the future centuries.
Please be kind to these poor souls. Speak
to them with compassion, no matter what they say to you.
Read U. G. Krishnamurti, linked on
my website below.
http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

Mike,
You stated,
“You have figured out Saints are evil.”
–I haven’t figured out that Saints are evil. Saints may or may not be OK people.
and
“Enlightenment is defined as the “Realization of No Self”.
–Enlightenment and Realization are just words. The “No Self” may be nonknowable.

Mike Williams said: “”You have figured out Saints are evil.”
–I think what Mike Williams means is that I have figured out that those who pose as saints…(‘saint’ being defined as a supposed perfect person with supernatural powers sent by god to liberate souls from rebirth and return them to heaven)…are evil because they allow others to worship them and rely on them for their spiritual salvation. Such individuals accept favors, gifts, and work from followers because of who they believe the saint is. Such individuals are parasites and evil if they KNOW that they do not have the spiritual powers people believe they have. I believe this is the case with the current line of RSSB gurus. I could be wrong. I don’t think so.
However, there are individuals who have achieved some level of awareness or ability that leads them and those who come into contact with them to believe they are “saints”. These so-called saints, masters, gurus, swamis, psychics, priests, shamans, brujos, lamas, yogis, etc. may be sincere and honest in their motivations even if they are deluded or have only seen part of the picture. I would not call these “saints” evil. They may be very kind and honest with good intentions. Some of them may simply be mentally ill but not deliberately evil setting out to deceive and take advantage of that deception as RSSB gurus do.
I think some teachers-guide types are beneficial. They help others break through their conditioning to see what is true for themselves. They do not set themselves up as something special, saintly or godlike and do not allow themselves to be worshipped as gods. They see themselves as ordinary folks who simply want to help out or, who in spite of their lack of desire for attention, find themselves serving as advisors to those seeking truth.

The Guru has told us to suppress thought
to still our ‘self’.
The mystical practices I’m aware of never advocate suppression but rather focused awareness of our thoughts. Often they may use a mantra to increase focus and displace idle mental chatter.
Perhaps you’re using suppression in some looser sense… but in this context it’s misleading in my opinion since it implies a forceful, head-on exclusion of thought. The mystic antidote for unfocused, idle background chatter is more one of observing and letting go as well as displacement.
I believe it’s short sighted to view mystic practice as hypnosis or walking zombie-ism. Mystics do take aim at useless, unfocused thought… the very real “poltergeists in the house”.

And we didn’t even talk about the being made very small, guilty and worthless by the ego police inside RSSB. Or about those same people ramming their mantras through their mind like steel hammers and forcing their body into pain and ending their meditation with RS I am exhausted 🙂
The Yoga itself isn’t without pontentiality when you apply it exactly right with common sense and a lot of teaching and effort and hopefully a teacher that knows how to…

“Enlightenment and Realization are just
words. The “No Self” may be nonknowable.”
quote Roger
Hi Roger, once again you are correct.
The ‘No Self’ is unknowable, because it does
not exist.
When the realization of no self (WHO) ‘happens’,
all that is left is impersonal thought.
No higher state of consciousness, nor a Higher Self,
appears to fill the vacuum.
This is the Great Misperception.
There is no need for a Higher Self to fill the vacuum.
Why ?
Because all ‘selfish’ actions are now gone. The needs of
the particular person still exist, but these are not
selfish. ‘Selfish’ actions are vanity and glory in all it’s
forms, which then create hate and jealousy and greed.
All the evil in the world comes from personalized
thought.
The mythical and non existant self (WHO), controls humanity
through each individual.
‘Selfish’ actions can only occur as long as a person
‘believes’ he has a real self (WHO) to wax.
Who would wax a self they know actually doesn’t exist ?
So, effortlessly, the self falls away, by seeing it was
a myth. And, effortlessly, selfish actions stop of
their own accord.
The hypnotic spell has ended. And, it was only a hypnotic
spell that prevented us from realization.
Impersonal thinking automatically creates compassion.
For the enlightened person, of course enlightenment
does not exist. But, it does exist for those under
the myth of the self.
quote dungeness;
“The mystical practices I’m aware of never advocate
suppression, but rather focused awareness of our thoughts.
Often they may use a mantra to increase focus and displace
idle mental chatter.”
The idea of nada, focused awareness, mantra, etc., are the
great trap of the Guru. Nor, will the real self appear in the
spaces between thoughts.
By temporary suppression of thought, we are suppossed
to move into other dimensions. But, the Gurus from
Sach Kand were called criminals by Faquir Chand.
The Gurus commit the most horrible atrocities from every
group.
Once off camera, the Guru is a monster. Why ? Personalized
thought immediately returns to them. Saints are not selfless.
It is not just Radhasoami masters, but most other masters.
The cult busters are having a field day with all the
information about Saints behaviour.
From Sai Baba, to Rajneesh, to Jaimal Singh. Why would anyone
want to become evil ?
Jaimal Singh was a child molester and was thrown out
of the satsangs of Salig Ram and Misra for it. Sawan was
a usurper and self declared Guru and was described as greedy.
Charan lied like crazy in Beas books via omission. But,
Charan, being a lawyer, was much more erudite in his lies
than Kirpal. Kirpal was the greatest liar in RS history.
Kirpal admitted to Faquir Chand he was not telling the truth.
Sawan admitted to Faquir Chand he was not telling the truth.
Do we go to Al Capone for love ?
Look at Rajinder Singh. He drives a Porsche, wants to give
satsangs on cruise ships, signs books at Border’s, lives in a
mansion in Chicago. I saw flyers in a laundymat with his
then upcomming visit to the Hilton in Los Angeles.
Over the coming days on television Rajinder gave commercials
inbetween episodes of Criminal Minds on ION TV. Then one day
in a pizza parlor I looked up at the screen and saw his
commercial during a golf game !!!!!!!
Shear madness. I believe the Kirpal lineage the most
dangerous cult on the earth today. I believe Kirpal was
a very severe schizophrenic.
I believe the practice of surat shabda yoga, if successful,
will produce self induced schizophrenia.
There is no fine line between Saints and madness.
But, Saints like Charan were not mad. He simply lied.

Hi Mike,
Do you have any verifiable data on the remark that surat shabd yoga induces schizophrenia or lets say psychoses? Or is it perhaps something you saw happen around you?
I do know of a schizophrenic satsangi but don’t know if she was already before she joined.
Regards,
N.

Even if one of these Master’s are authentic and they know it, it still comes off as a scam for the multitudes that chose to followed one of pretenders to the Gotti [sic] after their initiating Guru left the earth plane and then not having Real successor informing the misguided ones of their error thru some direct experiential awareness

And Mike thank you for the link to this ebook:
http://elearn.mtsac.edu/dlane/The%20Unknowing%20SageMINI.pdf
It tells the story of a guru that is seen by his people without him knowing. It is very honest in explaining that the guru is just a human and that whatever appears is part hallucination and part the spiritual realm taking a form of the guru or the guru finding himself accidentally on places that are meaningfull to others. I guess that when we meditate we plug in to some parts of our selfs and god or the gods (hallucinate ?) that the guru is not aware of. From a logical point of view it would be strange if the guru knew of all the million followers. It would require him to speed up his mind to incredible speeds to think all these thoughts during one day 🙂 Or as someone said, I have never seen a guru in his perfect body do the 100 meters or reproduce special relativity with his perfect mind 😉
I personally find Eckanckar much more realistic and less focused on the guru religion fairy tales. But no doubt that they will have their own fairy tales.

Schizophrenia is almost always present in advanced
yogis. I have been initiated in many groups by many
masters. A good Guru is almost always nuts. They have
a very different look in their eye. They act weird.
Their behaviour is bizarre. On my long journey, I
instinctly knew a good Guru was nuts. When I came upon
Charan Singh, I hesistated to get initiated, because he
clearly was not nuts. I went to satsangs of most different
RS groups and saw many people. The advanced disciples were almost always nuts. Borderline personalities do well
with surat shabda, or kundalini based yogas. But, with unrelated groups it is the same.
Mentally ill people are attracted to mysticism because
of their great affinity. In India, the schizophrenic is
worshipped as God. In the USA, they are placed in
insane asylums. Insane asylums are loaded with people
whom believe they are Jesus, or God, or talk to them.
Science has recently discovered the source of tinitis.
The inner sounds are the same as Radhasoami’s hear.
Schizophrenics hear and see and smell and taste things that
are not there. Voices talk to them and instruct them.
A good example is Kirpal Singh in his coded diaries:
encoded manuscripts of Kirpal
contain information on his discussions with
dead gurus. The end of chapter 55:
“Photocopies of sample pages from the coded
Diaries, describing glimpses of his
meetings and conversations with the great Masters
of the Past: here, Guru Nanak,
Kabir and Jesus Christ. Other portions describe
meetings with Buddha, Zoroaster,
Guru Gobind Singh, Baba Jaimal Singh, Rumi,
and others.
Insanity ran through Darshan Singh and now Rajinder Singh
in this lineage.
There are many websites discusssing schizophrenia and mysticism. To find punch in Google ;
kundalini schizophrenia
mysticism schizophrenia
use other keywords with schizophrenia
such as yoga, guru, etc.
http://sanf.wordpress.com/2008/07/20/relationship-beween-schizophrenia-and-mysticism/
SCHIZOPHRENIA AND MYSTICISM: A STRONG BOND
There is a very strong between schizophrenia and mysticism. Many people still don’t believe this and they view both phases of unique neuro functions as insanity and mental disorder.
People who went through schizophrenic stages or conditions also experienced great mystic awareness. The Divine reality is very close to these people because of hallucinations (positive schizophrenia)
In many self reported cases people showed enthusiasm to learn more about spirituality because of their experiences during different schizophrenic stages.
When research was conducted neuro physicians and scientists came to know about the neural cause of spirituality or mysticism and change of brain structure which is same during schizophrenia and mysticism. Many patients recovered from their illness by experiencing mysticism during schizophrenia.

Hmmm I don’t see a paranoid schizophrenic in serious bad condition attrac any followers. They can’t even talk or think coherently. When parts of your brain stop working one might however get mystical experiences like when there is no brain activity left in near death experiences and one sees light.

“I don’t see a paranoid schizophrenic in serious bad condition attract any followers.” quote Nietzsche
In the movie , “A Beautiful Mind”, the professor was a severe schizophrenic
and won the Nobel Peace Prize.
(Paranoid does not have to preceed the
word schizophrenia.)
Kirpal Singh and Meyer Baba come to mind,
as people you may have heard of whom were
schizophrenic, I believe.
But, the seeker, whom comes across many Gurus and masters, begins to notice very quickly that most ‘good’ masters are nuts.
Even most ‘good’ advanced disciples.
Maybe 90% are nuts. The other 10% are like Charan Singh.
The self help teachers are a group by themselves, generally fitting under the category of petty vanity. I am not discussing them.
Someone brought up the name of Jiddo Krishnamurti on another post. Jiddo
was supposed to be the Christ incarnate
come to earth.
He was taught by a kundalini master much as
you people have, to travel the inner planes.
He even wrote a book called The Adventures of Alclone, (or something like that), talking about his inner travels.
He reached very high inner degrees and
then realized exactly what Faquir Chand did.
That the inner planes were mental creations
that did not exist as actual places.
Jiddo Krishnamurti renounced Christhood,
Gurus, yoga, masters and religion.
Jiddo became the greatest Anti Christ the world has ever seen.
He spent the rest of his life debunking
Gurus, yoga, masters and religion.
Some posters here think that people on
this club have not gone very far inward,
or they would realize what the Gurus have said is true.
This is a big mistake. Rather, people here
do not say anything about their inner adventures, because no one would believe them. And, anyone actually going inside
would know for themselves the inner planes
are all mental projections.
The believers on this club have not gotten
to first base. If they ever see the inner
worlds, they would know they are not real.
Oddly enough, it is being reported Gurinder is now saying the same. Gurinder has even said the all the Beas books from the past should be burned.
And, Gurinder is right. People are too smart now days to believe in the old archaic
rhetoric of the past. Radhasoami will have to adapt quickly to a new breed of intelligent seeker.
All religions continually adapt and change what they are saying. Science is on their heals.
The boundary of lies and deception the Guru
relates to the seeker, is only bounded to
the extent science has not moved forward.
The whole Guru game is falling like a house of cards.
The handwriting is on the wall. The Gurus
must start telling the truth, or they will
loose their flocks to common sense.
They must become Faquir Chand like.

The inner plains are not real but this outer plain is real?
And maybe the guru’s have had these episodes but lets say Gurinder does not today.

“The inner plains are not real but this outer plain is real?”
quote Nietzsche
A person named Tao answered this on another thread
“There is nothing to “see”. there is nothing beyond your everyday experiences. there is no inner self, or trandscendental self, or special awareness.”
quote Tao
It is true the inner planes are not real,
as even Gurinder admits now, echoing Faquir Chand.
This world is temporal, but it is still very real while it lasts. Only energy lasts forever and can neither be created nor destroyed.
Our bodies, brain and thoughts are all temporal. But, very real.
To use a disassociation technique, or theory, to deny the reality of the physical plane, is to deny pain and suffering in this world.

really fed up to the gills with both god and devil bang their heads together to quit this sorry scheme of things entire and mould it nearer to the hearts desire …. come on beas walas give up the con…or gimme a lift upstairs i had enough of the medley of maya illusions and morass of spiritual catch 22 situations give us immediate inner ascent or bugger off and get a honest job ….cheers all you santies

Three cheers to gerald grimes. Spot on. At the next big satsang/bhandara the crowd should stand up together and say in unison to the guru exactly what gerald said. If he doesn’t deliver they should walk out and never come back. Enough of the cult/mind control bullshit business which seems to be more of a mundane career choice than a calling from heaven.

Brian
the question I have for you is whether you have ever experienced the feeling of a hidden reality during meditation?
I assume you continue to meditate for some reason.
But my question is have you ever experienced this transcental feeling?
You say you had some profound recognition of the universe as a paper bag when imbibing mescalin, but have you any experience out if the ordinary during meditation?

@Mike
Okay okay. I’m reading here and it is certainly interesting to read that Faqir Chand experienced that his followers created his doubles and that he knew nothing about that. So that inner experience might not be something we share with an outer being. But this does not wipe all the visions of ghosts from the table too (where individuality travels beyond death). And also the near death experiences where people have no measurable brain activity but do report seeing things, that is not denied too. So I think you or maybe Faqir Chand is overreacting. On the other hand 99% of the inner experience might be hallucination. And maybe 100% of the inner planes from RS might be hallucination. But I do think or individuality goes on after death carrying our thoughts like or physical body caries these thoughts today. I believe that our thought are intelligible versus the sensible world. Meaning they are not bound by the laws of action and reaction. I ‘m pretty sure they will continue in some form.
However I think the book from Faqir Chand is interesting I just don’t see why his personal observation should be universal. He has no research program bringing us any kind of acceptable argument. As I read it now it is a very interesting vision that I can learn a lot from. In Jewish tradition all the saints give interesting interpretations of the texts and they are remembered together and next to each other untill someone comes with some verifiable proof and that is not likely. But thanks again for this unique vision.

Perhaps our misunderstanding is in the concept of mind (westerns think mind=brains). If you say that ultimately our thoughts and self are to be abandoned I would agree but not by leaving the fysical body alone.
And it is worth a footnote that nobody not even the satguru understands reality unless they abandon the personal perspective and merge into the non individual.

Mike Williams,
I would be interested in the source of your own quote which goes…
It is true the inner planes are not real,
as even Gurinder admits now, echoing Faquir Chand.

Tara, Tucson, Brian, et. al.,
This statement, regarding the 5 inner planes,
“It is true the inner planes are not real,
as even Gurinder admits now,……”
–Has anyone confirmed that Gurinder stated(admitted), the “inner planes” are not real?
Thanks for a reply. Roger

George, you asked whether I’ve ever experienced a “hidden reality” during meditation, or an “experience out of the ordinary.”
Well, sure. Meditation is unusual, in comparison to our usual sorts of experiences, the way I’ve practiced it for most of my life. Namely, with eyes closed, hearing and seeing turned off (I usually wear ear protectors that muffle sound and an eyeshade), thinking discursively/sequentially as little as possible.
Repeating a mantra, which is what I continue to do now most of the time (it’s just a simple one or two syllable mantra, not the RSSB five word mantra), I’ve found, and still find, that it can lead to a fresh sort of conscious experience.
But I have no reason to believe that this is supernatural in any way. Neuroscience can explain it as what happens when sensory information is cut down drastically and thoughts are reduced to a minimum — leading to a diminished experience of “I-ness” or individuality.
I’ve felt myself being caught up in a seemingly limitless expanse, a dark, silent void that nonetheless is strangely (or not so strangely) pleasant. I like the feeling of not being in control, of letting myself go wherever the mantra takes me. Rather than “steering” the experience, I feel like a hot air balloon that is drifting wherever the wind blows.
This is like “going with the flow” physically, except there is no directionality to it, nowhere, and in a sense, no one, to be going. Again, this is probably all happening within and part of the physical brain.
Yet it also shows, as many books on the brain and meditation point out, that meditation leads the brain into what seem like mysterious places. I’d say a better term is “usually unexplored” places.

Hi George,
I have an old satsangi friend who remains loyal to the RSSB path. He personally heard Gurinder say the inner planes are not actual places but are symbolic of various states of consciousness.
OK, fine, but Charan never ssid that. Who’s right, master or sucessor? Neither? Both?
In light of this inconsistency and many others I would not like to be a satsangi and no longer consider myself one although they say once initiated the satguru is bound to see the disciple (jiva) home (Sach Khand/heaven) one way or another, sooner or later, by hook or by crook.
So, I can blaspheme RSSB all I like, eat all the doughnuts made with eggs I want, never meditate, guzzle intoxicants night and day, engage in peculiar extramarital sex acts, cheat on my taxes and still I’m guaranteed liberation. What a deal!!
Now that I think about it…Hey everybody! Get initiated. You can’t lose for screwing up and your salvation is guaranteed if the path turns out to be true.

As tucson points out, Gurinder has been stating in
open satsangs the inner planes are not actual places
that exist in reality. Since I have an RS website, I hear
what he is saying from reps. He is also saying Jaimal did not write the letters in Spiritual Letters, that they were writen
by his secretary and the postmaster. I believe my book
proved they could not have been Jaimal’s and that is the reason Gurinder is now saying this.
Thoughts and self cannot be abandoned. There is no one to abandon them. Thoughts are real, the self is a mythical
belief in the brain of man. The mind does not exist in
the mystical sense, only the brain. There are mistakenly transposed by most people.
There is no merger into the non individual.
When the self (WHO) drops off, via realization, only pure
thought is left. Pure spontaneous action. But, intelliegence
is used by thought to determine the best course of action.
The taint of self leaves. The self is like a plastic template
we look though that colors all our actions. The self is grease lightening and determines our actions.
When the self (WHO) leaves, it leaves all at once, not in stages. Thoughts can run like wildfire after that, but
the self can no longer stain them.
There is nothing mystical about enlightenment. It’s all physical.
Faquir Chand was important because he verified with Sawan
and Kirpal and others what he suspected was true.
That’s why Faquir Chand called them criminals.
I do not know if there is some form of life after death. Neither did Chand.

What you are describing is indeed schizophrenia. The common believe among psychiatrists is that the loose of self is what makes the schizo very afraid. But I don’t want to continue on this interesting idea that meditation leeds to self induced schizophrenia you seem to proof the case by presenting some mad guru’s.
I do have a question about the book from Faqir Chand. It says (blz 11) that in ‘Spiritual Gems’ and ‘Dawn of Light’ Sawan says that he is not aware of the experiences of the satsangi’s only in extreme cases. I asked for the books and got them but I can’t find this text glossing through these books. Is there anyone that knows where exactly Sawan said this (he is not aware of the individual satsangi’s experiences). There are other satasangi’s in my neighborhood interested in these text and I find this a way to make my case more solid. The case being that Gurinder is a fraud.

@tucson
Lets celebrate the freedom knowing that we let some arrogant guru’s tell us the truth while they didn’t have a clue.

The whole Indian experience, the initiation, darshan, being let into an intimate believing sharing community, the concept of the guru… I value that experience. It is a unique and quite graceful approach to belief and faith. So for a while, the experience is more important than being fooled or scammed.
Sometimes, feeling the cold, a person has to throw a thick blanket right over their whole body, obscuring their senses, only to come up for air after almost suffocating.
I agree with Nietzsche that if the concept of most schizophrenia is magical thinking accompanied by paranoia, then letting oneself be taken by many of the meditations and religions is self induced schizophrenia.

@Catherine schizophrenia is taken a little light here. It is a decease accompanied by psychotic episodes that are very frightening. I would call theses guru’s schizotypical meaning that they are weird.
The danger I see is that meditation could lead to psychoses but I don’t see that being made plausible. That much satsangi’s could be called weird or schizotypical therein I do agree.
Also what Brian said some time ago that most satsangi’s go in a sort of regression. That is something I observe too. I attribute it to the little self respect, the guild and the mincontroll.
When one gets free from these negative systems then the cold world is a place full of opportunities to really share, not for karma and to really love even if it leads to attachment and to be a better human. Not a dark kal place. I can’t understand how anyone can think that by isolation and denial anything can be gained. When we stop gaining we can at the very least try to be human to others.
In a way I think that leaving the cult will result in less freedom because we will have to face reality again.

“I can’t understand how anyone can think that by isolation and denial anything can be gained.”
quote Nietzsche
I made a long post on schizophrenia and kundalini about two days ago, but accidently placed it on another thread
on this club.
Denial and isolation as stated won’t help.
A direct asault on the self (WHO), is the only thing that will. Direct attention on the self, not away from the self. At what exact point does impersonal thought personalize itself ?
I think Faquir Chand was quoted as asking
Sawan if he was aware of his radiant form
in the disciple. Sawan told him no.
Chand asked Sawan and Kirpal and others if
they had power, etc. They said no.
Yet, Kirpal wrote the book Godman, which claims the Guru is all knowing and powerful
in so many words. Off camera Kirpal admitted to Chand it was not so.
Sawan told Chand he now had too many disciples to ever start telling the truth.
Chand called them criminals. I don’t remember what book Sawan admitted he was unawre of the disciple, but I do remember that quote.
The schizophrenic can be detached from the self, but he has not lost the self.

this all is fake…… radha soami guruji is God and this is none of ur business to comment on him………. first u shoould see in ur heart…… U r fraud and cheat person and thats why u can say this kind of words about others…… Shame on u all.. whatever radha soami’s doing but why u highlighting these things…… this is only because You feel Jealous……

@Mike
Still searching for that quote from Sawan. If anybody knows the page and book? I search through ‘spiritual gems’.

Radhasoami Beas Secret History
radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

i see this is an old thread but i want to give my few thoughts here, yes radhasoami can induce schizophrenia. i was involved for years but fortunately fall asleep as soon as i close my eyes. this saved me from lunacy i think now. the few times i had experiences i see now i was on road to lunacy. the masters are frauds, very clever frauds and very very dangerous, with good marketing skills.
it is usually good people searching for God that are taken in, this makes the atmosphere in the groups nice but the scene behind it is evil beyond words.
in radhasoami the people are mentally drained. you are like a cow that is milked. it is very dangerous. religion has left at least here in the west and anyway christianity is a dangerous sect as well, so people start searching and end up in wrong places. i hope many read this site and take the good decision to leave.

Case Study …
Few years ago a very devoted older ‘satsangi’ – known to be diagnosed with bi-polar when initiated – experienced a full-blown psychotic episode several days after arrival at Dera.
Although quickly hospitalised in Beas within a week this satsangi was deemed sufficiently stable – at least no longer severely manic – to be returned to Dera and there await new long-haul flight arrangements for an immediate return home.
Indeed, this satsangi was told in no uncertain terms that if any sort of fuss was made that there was a high probability of never being allowed to return to Dera. Such also would be the consequence if any other satsangi – even one with a relevant professional background – were to remonstrate on this satsangi’s behalf.
This was probably the most disturbing sequence of events I have ever witnessed in my professional life let alone at the Dera. And, needless to say, had any patient even in the notorious western psychiatric system been subject to such brash treatment it is likely that the said professional &/or institution would have been rightly hung, drawn & quartered.
So, whether RSSB practice may/may not induce &/or be responsible for the onset of psychotic/schizoid episodes in the vulnerable – of which, amongst RSSB initiates, there are known to be many with a psychiatric history – may be debatable. But, one thing perhaps less debatable is that up close & personal RSSB definitely provides a bloody good lesson in what is/is not the essence of compassion!

Well Seeker 2011,
I happened to be at Dera at that time you are talking about.
I don’t think it was the way you put it across i.e., a lack of compassion.
I talked to the person involved when they came back from the Dera hospital.
Apparently they had stopped taking their medication before coming. Maybe with the long flight and stress from travelling, along with the chemical changes from not taking their medication, aggravated the problem and brought on the episode.
I do think the Dera did the correct thing and although I felt very deeply for the person involved, I do think it was the right thing under the circumstances to do. Yes, although they seemed a lot more stabilised, it was evident that they were shook and needed some treatment.
If one chooses to go on medication, I think one has to be responsible. If one wants for whatever reason, to come off medication, it is usually advised to wean off slowly to let the system adjust or else it just throws them chemically off balance big time.
You say:
“So, whether RSSB practice may/may not induce &/or be responsible for the onset of psychotic/schizoid episodes in the vulnerable – of which, amongst RSSB initiates, there are known to be many with a psychiatric history – may be debatable.”
The way I see it, RS practice can actually be a lifeline for people with a psychiatric history. It can open them up to a wider perspective. In fact, I think any spiritual path or teaching does attract a lot of people who have had ‘tough’ lives or those with ‘tough’ emotions to deal with. It seems to lead in some respect to question life more because of this suffering which makes one question things and look deeper.
Also, I think most of us have a psychiatric history and it can be easily missed as a lot of behaviour can seem ‘normal’ just because most people are doing the same thing. It is only when it goes to the extreme that it tends to be noticeable.
None of us in my book are immune.
As to ‘RS can induce schizophrenia’ – nothing can cause this only one’s own thought processes and beliefs. It is all inside our own heads. When one sits silently, a lot of messy thoughts, beliefs and images can be seen/felt due to our own thinking. I love this poem……
*Love Sucks*
To be revealed to oneself when alone is difficult and painful, but the
revelation is contained and protected by one’s aloneness.
But to reveal ourselves in each other’s presence ( I don’t mean merely by words, but by being ) – this is something else entirely.
We will reveal ourselves in each other’s presence, no matter what else we ask of love. We may ask safety, comfort, security, happiness, refuge, permanence, but love doesn’t care what we ask.
After the first flush of romance it will strip us down. Then love will call up everything within us that is not love, that it may be healed. So to stand in the state of love, and to remain there, is to be inundated and shaken by everything inside that is not love, everything drawn to the healing power of love. A power that does not let us go, does not let us off. It’s dizzying. It’s frightening. It feels horrible. It has no rules. Its deep sweetness, and its great reserves of calm, exist only in relation to its capacity for revelation. All the “how to” books to make love safe turn to nothing before it.
As one who’s run over and over again to romance, so as not to have to endure love, I stand astounded among the astounded, hoping for mercy when the only real mercy is to proceed in the love.
THAT, to reprise the crude headline, is why love really sucks.
Because it is the one state in which you cannot escape yourself.
But an escape from reality, an escape from oneself, is precisely what our culture (especially our popular culture) would have us believe that love is.
And we collaborate in this lie (that’s why there’s such a market for it); we beg for it to be true, we get furious when it’s not – but it’s not.

Marina

Correction:
Quote:
‘I talked to the person involved when they came back from the Dera hospital.Apparently they had stopped taking their medication before coming. Maybe with the long flight and stress from travelling, along with the chemical changes from not taking their medication, aggravated the problem and brought on the episode.I do think the Dera did the correct thing and although I felt very deeply for the person involved, I do think it was the right thing under the circumstances to do. Yes, although they seemed a lot more stabilised, it was evident that they were shook and needed some treatment.”
1. Beas Hospital – not the Dera Hospital
2. The individual was not on any routine / prescribed medication at that particular time & carried with them only a preparation to facilitate sleep.
3. Stabilised? A more correct definition of their condition … from a professional standpoint … quite seriously ill & definitely too vulnerable to travel.
So a definition of adequate/ good/ compassionate psychiatric care? Perhaps simply to provide a place of safety; that is where the most vulnerable amongst us feel safe.
So that is when we cast them out!

“The mystical path demands focus, stillness and immersion in the ‘now’ at all times. Time and effort and often requires a very strict lifestyle as well.”
quote old poster
Stillness is not needed. A car will not
run if it is not in gear.
The ‘self’ cannot act if it is not BELIEVED
in.
A person can have all the selfish ideas they want, but if they don’t believe in
a self, no action can take place to wax a self image.
The brain can spin with thought, but action
to wax a self is not possible if the thought
is not personalized.
Therefore, the engine in the car can be running out of control. But, if the
gear box is in neutral, the car cannot
move.
The trick is not to still, or suppress thought.
The trick is to neutralize the belief in a
self.
If a person believes they have a self when they enter meditation, they will believe they have a self when they come out of meditation.
Personalized thought produces selfish
action.
But, is there a WHO that is thinking
our thoughts ?
WHO personalizes the impersonal thoughts
in our heads ?

A Gathering of Zen Buddhists
Names A, B, C and D
A Knock Knock, WHO’S there ?
B WHO’S asking ?
C WHO cares ?
D WHO is a myth.
A Jesus, can’t I ever get a straight
answer from you guys ?

Yes:
“The trick is not to still, or suppress thought.
The trick is to neutralize the belief in a
self.”
Perhaps herein lies one very good reason why, even after 10/20/30 years of so-called RS practice, RSSB initates still struggle … and, also, why Master/Management alike are so quick to try & brush under the carpet those – yes, those defined by them as so-called ‘marked souls’/members of the great RS/RSSB family – who exhibit any vulnernability &/or fragility vis-a-vis their thought processes!

WHO’S there ? WHO’S asking ? WHO cares ? WHO is a myth… talking about that old ‘burnt rope’ again? Nice curvy outline but, at the end of the day, absolutely no substance!
Trouble is, that even when giving a straight answer – who can reel their ego in sufficiently to actually listen, or even want to listen? Preferable, maybe, for most to keep hanging-on to the gilt-edged ego-shackles of a RS/RSSB samsara-cell than just let go & fly! Now that – letting-go of it all – might take either a good kick-up-the-…. (a sorta epiphany, world-shocker as part described above) or a whole loada natural-born courage that being Ramana’s route, he being one super-brave, heroic, Truth-filled dude

nobody is a fool to follow any path blindly…..they have experienced something…rather whole lotz of things….that is why they follow….if people would have been so innocent then, why jesus was so ill treated….man…use your brains…you can make 1 fool…10 fool 1000 fool 10000 fool 100000 fool but not atleast crores of people following….plz there is a humble request that if you dont follow..its ok…but dont criticize…..

Your brilliant Tara
quote Tara :
A majority of the Indian RSSB following comprises of the poor, gullible, uneducated villagers who will cling on to any Guru-type in the hope of a better tomorrow.

@tara….hi….one thing i would like to put forward is that i m an army officers daughter….niether i m poor nor innocent……i m sorry to say that u have just noticed the poor people…in my circle itself i have many ias officers who are hard core followers…….y cant i compare jesus….wen u can present your views regarding rssb…y cant i express my views ….on top of it…i really respect jesus unlike …..!!!…also….govt is not fooling us….the point is dat we r getting fooled…we all know wats wrong and whats right…we know that govt is corrupt..so in no mattre of case u can compare rssb with govt…dat was actually a wierd comparison.. ne way my frend…and yes…its all bout experience…and wen the trust is based on experience…no body can shake the foundation….:):):):)……i m writing here to clear a myth people have bout rssb…..i have put in best efforts….rest its your wish……..:)

its all bout experience
quote sneha
If the inner planes don’t exist
and fade to nothing in the end
…. WHO has made the journey
…. to where ?

sneha, you say when the trust is based on experience,… could you please define your experience. Further you say i have put in best efforts,…did your efforts bring in any results, if so what.
Thanks for the reply.

There seems to be a general concensus that being poor and uneducated means being stupid, gullible and ignorant and that people are therefore generally unhappy.
Maybe being poor and uneducated means being less brain washed by the typical educational society, more real, open and more able to think for themselves with less ‘imported’ knowledge swirling around their heads.
Marina

what all i can say is that experience….niether can i explain nor make u experience…its a path to experience yourself…probably dat would answer ur queries…and yes….first try…and if u dont see anything inside…den its an issue…without trying making such staement would be very unfair…:)

Education should teach the critical thinking that reduces the chances of being fooled. It also enhances essential academic skills that enable an engineer to safely design a bridge and a doctor to accurately diagnose and treat a disease.
At it’s basic levels it teaches literacy which enables people to read what they sign, or write a letter to transfer information and also to calculate amounts so that they are not swindled of their money.
Uneducated people are the most vulnerable.

quotq Catherine; Uneducated people are the most vulnerable
Moongoes: Yes, and they are exploited by the educated fools.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juWZMp0THYw

WHY A MAN TOLD THAT HE IS GURU. NO MAN CAN BE A GURU BY IN PRESSURE. WHY A COMMON MAN TOLD HE IS A MESSENGER OF GOD. A SIMPLE KNOWLEDGEABLE MAN DON’T PRESSURIZED THE PEOPLE TO PRAY HIM AS A GURU. GURU IS MADE BY HEART. NEVER TOLD THE PEOPLE THAT CONCENTRATE ON GURU BUT ALWAYS TELL CONCENTRATE ON GOD.

And why man has to have caps lock?

“So, whether RSSB practice may/may not induce &/or be responsible for the onset of psychotic/schizoid episodes in the vulnerable – of which, amongst RSSB initiates, there are known to be many with a psychiatric history – may be debatable.”
I would say it is not debatable 🙂 When I was trying to help my relative struggling with scrupulosity ( later also bipolar disorder ), I spoke with so many mentors (senior satsangis) in Petaluma CA, center of RSSB, almost all of them were diagnosed with some form of OCD or schizophrenia and were on medication!! I realized the problem right away and instead of asking the psychotic help , started focusing on trying to distance my relative from that place. Withdrawal worked like charm, my relative didnt go to that place for about an year, didnt talk to those people , and started doing great! He was back to work and family and out of medication too! Suddenly met few satsangis and got involved in their idiotic discussions. My relative is slowly getting back at that place and OCD/delusions are coming back too!
I wish some researcher is allowed to do a research of finding a relationship between schizophrenia and RSSB.

Sapient, if it is not debatable that RSSB induces and is responsible for the onset of psychotic episodes like bi-polar, what is it about RSSB that you think causes bi-polar?
Marina

Good post sapient,
In all sant mat groups there is lots of insanity.
Sant mat is often seen with repression
of sexual energy which can cause psychosis.
Sant mat is kundalini yoga, bring the snake
up the spine. Each chakra has its own sound
and light.
In other groups such as Yogananda
one is taught after meditation to take the energy
back down the spine so you don’t fuse your
brain out.
Concentrating on tirsa til will cause
the energy to rise.
Sant mat is self induced insanity with all
the visions and sounds.
I used to think there was a difference
between sant mat visions and insanity.
A fine line of seperation.
There is no fine line, they are one in the same.
In India they become Gurus.
In the USA they are locked up in the nut house.

“Concentrating on Tisra Til will cause the energy to rise”
or
it will cause you to go to snore…and make your neck cramp up.
I see more satsangi’s with neck problems and drool stains from hours of sleeping while sitting up. My head use to jerk back when I fell asleep and smash against the wall. Scared my mom half to death, the 3am head smash thing. She finally asked me if meditation wasn’t really just another word for sleep.
Most of Petaluma seva folks are INDIAN. There are a few old white boys and girls around, but not many. And they that are remain Peta – loony – ized, they survived the gauntlet of petty kickboxing, and were fudgin nuts to begin with. (except the rich ones, of course)

Hi Betty,
The drug Prozac kills the sexual energy.
That stop mental people from grand delusions.
There are a few dozen areas of the brain relating
to sights and sounds and whatnot.
Sometimes people who get no where with Tirsa Til
can have success with other meditations that work
on other parts of the brain.
But,it is all physical energy. Nothing mystical.
Enlightenment is a physical process in the brain.
That process depersonalizes thought and debunks
the belief in a personal self.
No need for supression of sexual energy in jnani
yoga as Ramana Maharshi explains.
The conscious realization of ‘no self’ go backwards
into the suconscioous mind and destroys it naturally.
Kundalini yoga blows up the subconscious mind into
consciousness and the person is left confused.
Because they still lack realization of no self.
This may cause insanity. But, if the person realizes
no self then the subconscious becomes a joke.
Nothing the subconscious mind can toss up will
bother the person because they see through the delusion.
Kundalini yoga is old fashioned and completely
unnecessary.
Stilling the mind is a joke. For the jnani it matters
not how fast the mind moves because it can never fool him.
Kundalini yoga is archaic and barbaric.

The Ultimate State of Unknowingness (cont from last post)
Notice the remarkable similarity between what
Ram Chandra said and Faquir Chand.
Quotes from Ram Chandra below;
“Realisation means merging or oneness with the Absolute. In that case no
question of knowledge can ever arise. What that may then be – knowledgelessness –
not knowingness – ignorance or what? In short it must be something like that,
though it may well nigh be impossible to express it in words. Complete ignorance,
as I have put it, may however be nearest to appropriateness”.
(Path of Grace Page 185, Para 2)
It is in true sense the state of realization – where is neither avidya nor
vidya. What is it there then? Neither of the two – a state of perfect latency,
not-knowingness, nor complete knowledgelessness which may roughly be denoted
as the state of Ignorance, just as it is at the age of infancy”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 28, Para 2)
“Knowledge implies awareness of that which is beyond self. Realisation means merging or oneness with the Absolute”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 29, Para 1)
Making a stunning statement that the basic property of the Divine is ignorance, he stated that “If I had proceeded along the path of Realisation through books, I could never have come up to that level of Ignorance, which is the basic property of the Divine. It is only the practical life that
17
is worth having. We should not only know what Realisation is but should try to attain it as well”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 31, Para 1)
Making things more clear that, one who has realized develops a special will he stated that, “Most of the scholarly saints have defined the state of realisation in numerous odd ways, but to me it appears that so far as it can be defined, it is not realisation. It is really a dumb state which is beyond expression.
Feeling or observing luminosity within or outside is not realisation at all. During the early period of my abhyas, I often felt and witnessed luminosity. But that not being the goal, I proceeded on under the watchful support of my master. Really it is a tasteless state – unchanging and constant. There is no charm, no attraction, and no anandam in the popular sense of the word. It can more appropriately be described as ‘sang-e-benamak’ (i.e., a lump of salt from which saltishness has been taken away). One having attained the state of realisation develops an unfailing will in the spiritual sphere”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 38, Para 3)
Master asserts that “Realisation has now, today, become very easy because of the presence of the Divine Personality. The thought of people generally does not go beyond the point of liberation, which they take to be the final limit of human approach. But that is a wrong idea. As a matter of fact, liberation is one of the lowest attainments on the divine path, hence it is just like a toy for a child to play with. Beyond that there is yet a lot to be achieved. The infinite ocean lies still ahead, which is but a limitless expanse. Have your eyes fixed upon That and
18
That alone; and go on and on to trace it out”. (Wisdom Unfurled Page 40, Para 2)
Master describing the ideology of his system stated that “it is so plain
that often for this very reason it is not so well understood by people who
are under the impression that Realisation is the most difficult job which
requires persistent labour for lives and ages. It may however be difficult
to those who proceed on, loaded with their own confused conceptions of Reality,
and adopt complicated means for their achievement. As a matter of fact Reality,
which one aspires for, is so simple that its very simplicity has become a veil to it.
A simple thing can be achieved by simple means alone. Therefore, for the realisation
of the simple, it is only the simplest means that can ensure success”.
(Showers of Divine Grace Page 73, Para 1)

Largest contributors to Joh McCain and
Barrack Obama in 2008 campaign.
3 of top five of for each were
Goldman Sachs
J. P. Morgan
Citigroup
All owners of our privately held
Federal Reserve Bank.
Why do they like BOTH candidates ?
“No matter who you vote for,
you vote for one of us.”
Joseph Stalin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

PEOPLE LIKE TUSCAN AND ROGER ARE A REALLY FRUSTRATED LOT.BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO FOLLOW THE SANT MAT PATH AND HAD SELF CONTORL THEY ARE CRITISCISING TEACHINGS OF RSSB

mr tuscan and roger,you should have self control ,discipline to follow sant mat

ms tara u should know that rssb is not a new religion ,MASTER just preaches what great gurus/saints from different religions like christianity,hinduism ,islam sikhism and many other haved already taughts us.i think ms tara doesn,t belive in god which she should(indirectly she is criticising every religion)

Punish Sadna,
MASTER NOT ONLY just preaches what great gurus/saints from different religions like christianity,hinduism ,islam sikhism and many other have already taughts us.BUT HE ALSO TEACHES YOU THE HIDDEN TRUTH, WHICH THE OTHER RELIGIONS ARE NOT CAPABLE OF.

Tara said:
‘showing people a subtle way out of their false wonderlands is a good start’
There is something I would like to add to that. The hardcore RSSB demonises the world. They say the world is the place ruled by Kal and that you have to go to the master for the good thing. Right?
Now look what happens and yes I am a close witness. People who need help with their mental disorders (I mean people that are really sick) do not go to the mental healthcare system that could help them. They are afraid of them and start doing simram like hell when they have to talk to them. They do not trust these psychotherapists and do not let them in on their thoughts. Right? The result is that these people do not get the help that they need and circle around in their mental problems year after year.
Now they also do not get the mental help that they need from the master. He is not able to organize a hospital for all his satsangi’s with mental problems all over the world. So the end result is that by demonizing the world as Kal the people that are especially sensitive to this demonisation are isolated from mental healthcare and suffer much more than they had to. And THAT is the truth EVIL in my opinion.

ms tara i have never said that rssb gurus are GOD,they are teachers or masters.like why there are teachers in school,everything is written in books.teachers are there to make us understand the books.u just read the book :origin of christianty ,it also tells us about hidden truth.(it is not printed by rssb press).i think u are totally mistaken that rssb people tell us not to go to healthcare services when we are ill’.

It would be a good thing is RSSB masters would tell their followers to go to a mental health care institute if they hear scary voices or if they are paranoid or if they are confused. That way the mental with positive delusions like bells will stay and the ones with negative illusions will seek help. It would be better if the master would not create illusions at all. He should not act like omnipotent or God. He should not encourage the imagination of his followers. He should ask his folowers to stop imaging things. To seek objective knowledge to check and double check facts and to be critical. He is not encouraging critical thinking at all. In fact he is confusing people trying to shake their certainties. Inducing psychoses.

Well I’m not under the illusion that anyone who saw the miracles with his own eyes will rethink what he saw. I’m merely addressing the ones that have the negative hallucinations and that seek release. It is a fact that if you are in a group that stimulates the believe in inner experiences that the risk for psychoses gets higher. That is a simple conclusion from facts. If people learn to ignore their inner experience than the chance on something negative ruling their lives is smaller. That is something we learn from scientific investigation.
On the other hand if you come from the blue and suddenly experience hallucinations and get confused because your brain works abnormal than there is a lot of attraction coming from groups that treat inner experiences as real. Yet the best help comes from groups that learn you to ignore them. So we see that science in his effort to find the best way to help these people comes on a different treatment than the saints in Agra thought was the best for these people.
Confronted with the facts and scientific evaluation of every kind of treatment in the end the most gods will fly and the remaining will go through a process of scientific enlightenment leaving less area for the religion and more area for proven methods of treatment. It is only a matter of time and RSSB will have to adapt in the end or it will vanish. The other option is to close the gates even more in a total sectarian way but with the internet that is not the easiest way if at all possible 😉
That Gurinder is encouraging his people to read the internet is a reasonable thing. He has no other option but it WILL change RSSB from hardcore to something else.
And yes I do now and than see miracles happen like that last parking spot being for me by the grace of the guru. On the other hand if I take a longer time I see that my co workers have as much luck as I do 😉 But it is a positive induced hallucination haha.

who does this little pseudo psycho tara think she is some authority on RSSB teachings..?
She comes onto phony intellect sites such as these as if she is the be all and know it all of all RSSB tenets and principles and as if she is the spokesperson and authority for the RSSB guru or faith..
She knows nowt about what the RSSB head or guru is to any disciple let alone what relevance he has to her own forlorn lost soul…
She is in no position to declare with such emphatic non existent lack of any absolute knowledge as to who or what the guru’s personal relationship is with anyone.. let alone her own deluded position with respect to her relationship with such a being or even herself.

Tara – ‘As you may know, in Sikhism, the Granth Sahib clearly states that there will be no living Guru after Guru Gobind Singh.’
Dear tara it is not written in Guru Granth Sahib.It is written in dasham granth which is also known as kachi baani.The Dasham granth can’t be recited from Golden temple.Even during the time of hardliners (Bhindrawala,et al) the ritual was followed strictly.The Sikh scholars and bodies have decided voluntarily that nothing will be discussed on this matter further.I don’t want to go in further detail but please put the right facts.

He this is interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sant_Mat
It’s about Sant Mat. The saints that where before RSSB and Sikh. Its all about surat shabd yoga bought by saint like Faqir Chand and Devi Sahab.
Reading it I discovered the huge difference between the rule based RSSB people that fear they do something wrong and the Sants that encourage you to be a better human, to not eat food that causes karma. I mean they explain the eggs rule and surely under circumstances they would allow exceptions when human health is important. Nature is not about humans and we do not hold a right on the animal but without us a lot of animal would not be here. We should at least treat them with respect.
Do you learn all that when you blindfolded follow the rule ‘do not eat eggs’? Do you understand bakshi from stupid rules or fear based threats with hell?
So much difference between Sant Mat and RSSB. Where did it go wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Devi_Sahab

While we are on vegetarianism this might be interesting.
I was taught that it is better to kill a bird than it is to kill an ape because there are less elements in the bird.
Now think of that. If there is a soul do you think the soul of the bird suffers less than the soul of the ape because he has less elements?
If you were a cow and you could chose between dying without panic in a fast way or being shred to peaces by a lion what would you prefer?
Would cows be here at all if there where no humans that treated them with respect and gave them an easy dead because of the flesh?
Why is it better to kill a potato if it has a soul than it is to kill a cow?
It all comes down to elements. The potato has less element or less chakra’s so less advanced souls but the scientist Bose already showed that plants do have a kind of a nerve system. Everything here seems to be food for something else. Treat it with respect. That is missing in bio industry. And I seriously wonder if the soul of a human is further advanced than the soul of an ape. Perhaps it lived longer and perhaps it has gone through an evolution as a soul. I can’t find why it is better to kill a less advanced model than it is to kill a more advanced model. Apart from the fact that if I had the choice I would love to live a life as an dolphin or a lion or gorillah so why less advanced? Because it has no language like us? No overdeveloped logical brain? They have nicer swimming tales!
would it really be such a bad karma to kill a jesus if you compare it to killing a child that did not advance very far in life? This whole argument of the more advanced bringing you more bad karma when you kill them seems pretty stupid to me.
But okay have a happy life killing the smallest thing around. I will just eat what I need for food and will give up finding ethics to justify that.

Yeaahh there seems to be some kind of a difference between a potato and a dog. But still I love my potato just as much! Don’t kill it!
But back to the egg ( :)). I drink milk every day and that is not forbidden by RSSB. Still the cows that produce it will suffer all there is to suffer from bio industry. Why is milk allowed and not eggs? The eggs I eat come from virgin chicken by the way they have never seen a male.
Is it perhaps because the rule system was developed in India 1000 years ago? Shouldn’t the rule system adapt to the rest of the world to have any ethical sense? But of cause not. RSSB holds the same rules that worked a thousand years ago and expects them to be eternal. Crap 🙁

You could ask why to make such a point of this egg rule? Well that is because the rule is unhealthy! An egg contains valuable food resource just like milk. A cow has a long digestive system that produces vitamins that we somehow became dependent on throughout the evolution. To live without them asks for a lot of vegetarian knowledge and cooking skills. Now I don’t have these skills and by God I have tried but I just can’t cook and nobody in my environment can. So I miss out on valuable vitamins that are the potential cause of mental disorders. I’m talking about vitamin B and Omega 3. A brain needs lots of oxygen to stay healthy and the bloodvains have to stay smooth with Omega 3 fatty stuff. Now that means eating fish or algae. Fish eating is much easier.
On top of that physical exercise is top important to prevent deseases like Alzheimer. Rich oxygen full blood is pumped to the brains during exercising.
I think I will start my 21 century religion that consists of rich good food with new philosophy and physical exercise. Than perhaps a little yoga or even surat shabd yoga for the serious followers. Or wait that system is already there and it is called the medical support system. Its temples are the hospital and its preachers are the doctors. Don’t believe everything they say by the way but we will get much healthier and feel better by listening to most of their 21 century teachings.

I am lacto vegetarian and am seriously weight lifting in old timer stuff like Sandow,Maxick, Strongfort and seriously do ashtanga vinyasa and i also run and in the past i did alot of high hill mountain biking and am feeling very good on this diet.
But i immediately understand if someone else need meat or egg or anything else for themselves. But you don’t need Beas to change that or any other ashram or so called Guru you have your own life in your own hands. But this with Beas about eggs is almost in every ashram or in every yoga book so i see this diet as an idea so take it or leve it no big deal..

People like tara should read guru granth sahib and rssb books in detail first and then Comment.the last Comment she posted regarding vegeteranism tells about her psychological state.she should[NOT RSSB PEOPLEL]consult psychiatrist asap

I avoided eggs for decades according to RSSB dictates, but I never understood clearly the rationale behind the edict. I just went along with it.
Yes, by eating a fertilized egg one is depriving a chicken (or other bird) from the opportunity to grow to the full potential of its chickenhood crowing endlessly (not just at dawn)or engaging in pecking, clucking, cackling, foraging, mating and other chicken activities.
Being responsible for this kind of deprivation could lead to an unbearable karmic load which may retard spiritual advancement for perhaps three (3) addional lifetimes of suffering in this cesspool of a creation known as Pind…the lowest in the grand scheme of things.
I also understand that in ayurveda and other Indian traditions eggs are considered rajasic food that incites passions, disturbs mental equilibrium and stimulates aggression. But I have never noticed this effect. Nor have I noticed a pattern of erratic, aggressive behavior in those who have recently consumed eggs.
Can anyone explain to me why one must avoid eating unfertilized eggs where no chicken’s development has been thwarted?

I avoided eggs for decades according to RSSB dictates, but I never understood clearly the rationale behind the edict. I just went along with it.
Yes, by eating a fertilized egg one is depriving a chicken (or other bird) from the opportunity to grow to the full potential of its chickenhood crowing endlessly (not just at dawn)or engaging in pecking, clucking, cackling, foraging, mating and other chicken activities.
Being responsible for this kind of deprivation could lead to an unbearable karmic load which may retard spiritual advancement for perhaps three (3) additional lifetimes of suffering in this cesspool of a creation known as Pind…the lowest in the grand scheme of things.
I also understand that in Ayurveda and other Indian traditions eggs are considered rajasic food that incites passions, disturbs mental equilibrium and stimulates aggression. But I have never noticed this effect from eating an egg. Nor have I noticed a pattern of erratic, aggressive behavior in others who have recently consumed eggs, but maybe I am simply unobservant or live in a culture where such behavior is not recognized as such.
Anyway, I just don’t see the harm in eating eggs. No chicken is hurt in the process. In fact, I see eggs as a great nutritional choice for those who choose to avoid eating animals.
Can anyone explain to me why one must avoid eating unfertilized eggs?
Please don’t say that in eating unfertilized eggs one may accidentally consume a fertilized one. Please.

Tucson wrote,
I avoided eggs for decades according to RSSB dictates, but I never understood clearly the rationale behind the edict. I just went along with it.
Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh is very clear on this subject:
I know that infertil eggs have no life, and from that standpoint you can justify it. But when you start with that, you start with the other also. You get the taste of that and there will be no end to it. If you just start innocently with a kiss, you do not know where you will end; so then you start justifying things.It is better to be strict, and when we are strict about a certain thing, there is no question of compromising. We remain strict, but if we become just a little loose in this way or that way, we do not know where it leads to. Besides, the eating of even an infertile egg, hardens the mind by exciting animal instincts, which are antagonistic to spiritual progress.
Further in response to a question; If an initiate strays from the vegetarian diet, he says; If a child commits a mistake, even a little crime, the father does not hand him over to the police, but the father never hesitates to spank him, to beat him or to punish him in some way in order to set him right, to reform him, but he will never hand him over to the police or to the jail authorities. So, if we fall, we do not go back but we have to pay for that.
Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the PLM says that we should be always positive thinkers, and the positive thoughts are; that the initiates are in the safe zone, they can stray from the vegetarian diet, if they wish, but the biggest problem is for those who are not initiates, as they will be given birth according to their karmas in lower species.

But the cows! Can someone explain why we are allowed to torture cows? We deprive them of their old days. We drink their milk that makes us like agressive lustfull animall. Espescially I start to become a unbearable baby after drinking milk. I start yelling and sucking on everything all because of the milk. Why am I allowed to make such bad karma?
Now a smart ass would say that in India the cows are holy but see where that leads us. Because they don’t eat the cows there is no reason to feed them so they almost die from hunger. All because we want milk. Terrible sinners we are.
And if eggs cause lust then tell me what hormons are in there and how they stimulate the libidio. Chinees believe shark fins cause lust and there are even more bizar convictions. Yes eggs cause libido if you believe in it. There is an awfull amound of bullshit in what people believe. Check the facts give links to reasearch that showed that eggs caused libido. I seriously doubt it but who knows. I certainly don’t believe it because granny knows it or patanjala or vedas or bible or beatles etc.

Juan wrote:
“Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh is very clear on this subject:
I know that infertil eggs have no life, and from that standpoint you can justify it. But when you start with that, you start with the other also.”
–What, like marijuana leads to heroin addiction? I guess if someone eats an egg they are at risk of becoming sacred cow eaters or even cannibals?
“Besides, the eating of even an infertile egg, hardens the mind by exciting animal instincts, which are antagonistic to spiritual progress.”
–What property do you imagine that is found in an unfertilized egg that would harden the mind and excite animal instincts? It has been found that eggs do not even harden the arteries. I guess if you ate no protein all, that would be the best solution to the animal instinct problem. You would be too weak to get an erection.
“.. the father does not hand him over to the police, but the father never hesitates to spank him, to beat him or to punish him in some way in order to set him right, to reform him.
–The father beats the kid because he ate an egg? Call child protective services immediately.
“… the initiates are in the safe zone, they can stray from the vegetarian diet, if they wish, but the biggest problem is for those who are not initiates, as they will be given birth according to their karmas in lower species.”
— Thou shalt be condemned to hell for unfertilized egg eating.
Sorry for the ridicule, but none of what you said makes any rational sense to me at all. Never did.

Hmm I must admit that I found research that eggs stimulate libido. thanks for clearing that up! Now I don’t see much wrong with libido but I do see something wrong with the culture of exploitation on the internet. And I’m thinking of the poor guy that told us his libido was health by Gurinders presence. Actually when Gurinder was here someone stepped up with the same kind of problems might be the same guy.
http://www.thinknatural.com/articles.php?id=10522
If someone could clear up the milk issue. I am seriously asking why RSSB is lacto vegetarian only.
@Tara how do we communicate an email address I would like to exchange findings in health related subjects! But my main findings are that it doesn’t matter that much what we eat because the body adapts to a lot. I know of a woman that only ate chips (potatoes) and lived on, still does. There is also hypotheses that the cooking of food was the start of the growing of our brains. The energy that was not wasted in digestion went to the grey matter. It is backed up by the observation that shorter digestion ways accompany bigger brains in the evolution of very early human like creatures to the sapiens we are today. The appearance of cooking tools accompanies this too!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2058739/The-myth-raw-meat-produces-aggression-Study-claims-cooked-variety-boosts-energy.html

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/689/The_Meat_and_Testosterone_Connection.aspx
This article shows some of my main problems with a strict vegetarian diet the I have. I know we have to maintain normal testosterone to stay non aggressive and stress free. It is a mistake to think that low testosterone makes you calmer!
My strict vegetarism resulted in stress and fast irritation. I feel much better now I take some supplements and I seriously feel that I should now and then eat chicken or bean soup with flesh. If you take a little meat than your testosterone levels will be healthier and you will do better at sitting in meditation 🙂 Also there is a ethical difference between a little meat and a lot.
About the sliding scale I find that the need for meat disappears often and it does not progress at all in my case.
When you do physical exercise you have to be even more careful not to run low on essentials. So if you move a muscle now and than think careful abut your food. If you cook with sesame etc. these problems might not arise but you have to be a very good cook.
I hope I can restart my training for the half marathon later this year. I did already learn how careful I have to be with my muscle and food intake. I had some injuries.

Tara, I enjoy your comments also.
Juan mentioned that Charan Singh said, “I know that infertil(e) eggs have no life, and from that standpoint you can justify it. But when you start with that, you start with the other also. You get the taste of that and there will be no end to it.”
–I guess Charan felt that eggs are like marijuana leading to heroin addiction in that if you eat an egg the next thing you know you will find yourself eating a sacred cow or resorting to cannibalism.
Then Juan stated that Charan said, “If a child commits a mistake, even a little crime, the father does not hand him over to the police, but the father never hesitates to spank him, to beat him or to punish him in some way in order to set him right, to reform him, but he will never hand him over to the police or to the jail authorities.”
–The child is beaten and punished for eating an egg? I think it is the father who needs to be handed over to the police or child protective services.
The prohibition against eggs seems inconsistent. There is also potential for abuse of cows in the production of milk products as well. And then there is the problem with wearing leather shoes, belts, etc.
You can’t have cheese with rennet but you can wear a leather jacket or sit in a leather chair?
What about honey and stealing from the hard-working bees?
Seems to me satsangis should be vegans and avoid animal products altogether.
What do you think Juan?

Tucson: Seems to me satsangis should be vegans and avoid animal products altogether.
Moongoes: Yo Tucson i know what you are sayin i also came to one point in my life when i wanted to stop looking at every product what ingredients are so i decided to go on raw food to quit complication but in the same day i went to some shop to buy oranges and i was blown away with message that they content some E on their skin but i didn9t even try to find which E was i just got a clue that i need to quit complicating. But guess what now i am on this so called typical yoga or lacto diet and have no problems either with health either with looking on ingredients cause you know even if i ate meat i would probably look into ingredients to get good product. I think RSSB have what they have i think you should decide for your self what to eat or not and not what RSSB says.Generaly i don’t eat eggs but i will not use glasses to find their traces.

Tucson writes,
I guess Charan felt that eggs are like marijuana leading to heroin addiction in that if you eat an egg the next thing you know you will find yourself eating a sacred cow or resorting to cannibalism.
….Well his main purpose was to convince that he was right, as he also said -that if you just start innocently with a kiss, you do not know where you will end; so then you start justifying things. It is better to be strict, and when we are strict about a certain thing, there is no question of compromising.
The child is beaten and punished for eating an egg? I think it is the father who needs to be handed over to the police or child protective services.
….What Charan Singh meant was that an initiate (child) would not descend by getting birth in a lower specie, even if his karmas were bad, whereas a person not initiated by a True Master can be descended to a lower specie according to his karmas.
Seems to me satsangis should be vegans and avoid animal products altogether.
….Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon is taking the satsangis in this direction and all his efforts are to make the satsangis True Gurmukhis.
In a recent newsletter there is a brief guide to food products & ingredients where they have given a long list of Non-Vegetarian ingredients which should always be avoided and Ingredients which can be from either vegetarian or non-vegetarian sources, and some vegan websites.I can scan the Newsletter next week, if you wish so. Further the satsangis are alerted “When in doubt,
don’t eat it.”
What do you think Juan?
…..IMO, RSSB masters are doing perfectly well to meet their targets.If not all, nearly all the satgurus in this business are doing the same way. After all they have right to make money power and a comfortable/luxurious living.

Ms tara before posting any Comment firstp read guru granth sahib and rssb books in detail.killing animal for satisfying ur taste buds is inhuman.isntit

Tara,
I have heard the story of the sage who meditated in the mountains and then fell prey to lust in an hallucination of a woman, and last month the same story was repeated in a satsang by a speaker who also gave the cause that the sage was not initiated by a True Master.

Moongoes wrote: “.Generaly i don’t eat eggs but i will not use glasses to find their traces.”
–There. That’s it. A healthy attitude. You prefer not to eat something but you aren’t a fanatic about it.
I don’t like mushrooms, but if there are a few pieces of mushrooms in something I don’t worry about it and eat it anyway. No big deal. I just ignore them.
Satsangis have to make sure that no traces of forbidden items are in their food. Is there lard in the pie crust? Is there lard in the refried beans? Is the sandwich made with mayonnaise? Are there eggs in the muffins? Is there rennet in the cheese? It’s really a drag to have to be that way and rather neurotic. It cuts you off from a whole sphere of social contact. Oh well, they’re just a bunch of clueless, worldly manmukhs anyway whose influence will just pull you down into impure thoughts pertaining to the realm of Kal. Right?

This proofs the point that fanatics are in their essence weak people that want to appear strong.

If You r a non believer or ignorant,,,, why are you speaking bad things for Radha Soami… For all I know, you are an extremist just trying to put bad name in some good faith …. You think you are a big philosopher,,, but you are not… You are just SICK n you need to be treated….

I once had a book by a guru of RSSB, charan Singh and there was a whole load in there in a Q&A about Jesus and meat eating, where he basically said that the fact the Gospels say that Jesus ate fish must be a mistranslation or something!
And Ramakrishna, the Indian saint of Bengal, said that if a man loved God and ate meat that they were better off than someone who was vegetarian without love for God. He was basically a Vaishnava too.
For monastics, a vegetarian diet is a good idea because it helps with celibacy. For householders, it is not a very good idea. And if a householder is married and has sex to boot, it is considered lawful to indulge in sex every now and again. It seems that the gurus of RSSB are prescribing monastic requirements for householders.
This is an important point. In the Catholic church, which i was brought up in, prayer consists of reciting some other written prayer and generally being ethical in conduct, while at the same time you can eat whatever you want, have sex, do most “normal” things that people do. But if you want to experience God you have to become a monk or a nun, and essentically this means a life of renunciation, hardship, denial of the senses, prayer and meditation for long periods, celibacy and fasting etc. And there is a good reason for this.
It seems to me that RSSB is supposed to be a kind of monasticism for householders! That simply doesn’t work.
I read that the reason why the human brain evolved into what we are today is because our ancestors ate meat.
Being vegetarian, aside from the moral implications of killing other animals, is simply a tool for potential health reasons which aid calmness which is good for meditation. You don’t want digestion working the heart to get more blood flowing throughout the body when you are sitting trying to focus on God. Then again, you could achieve the same calmness by exercising regularly and this would be much more potent than simply abstaining from meat eating.
Then we come to the moral arguments for vegetarianism. To my mind, although this issue is tricky it is a simple fact nonetheless that the simple act of automatic breathing or respiration is an act of murder in and of itself, and that practically speaking you cannot base any karmic theory on the idea that eating animal flesh is therefore a sin which will have a comeuppence. For starters, in some of the HIndu gurus i have read, animals don’t even have karma. So how can eating an animal, which has no karma and therefore isn’t responsible or self-aware, produce sin for a human? It cannot be based on the theory that animals have souls, since Vedanta also teaches that consciousness is in the most primitive amoeba as well as inanimate matter like rocks, and therefore if you kill an amoeba you are causing a karmic sin.
Jains wear masks and sweep the ground after them to stop karmic comeuppance. And this is despite the fact that Buddha didn’t do these things. And irony of ironies, didn’t Buddha eat meat which he died from?
The only reason i can see why vegetarinism is valid is the moral one – that killing higher life forms is bad because they are kindred to humans, they have rudimentary consciousness, and when you have pets you know all about this. It has nothing to do with some apparent karmic retribution if you eat flesh because karma itself is inscrutable, it isn’t just a cause and effect doctrine, it is a mystery.
Then again, once the animal is butchered, cut up and placed in nice little packages that you can buy at the supermarket, are you the one responsible for murdering that animal simply because you pay for the package, and now that the animal is already dead and the meat layed out for you in the nice package, it is dead already so why not eat it?

It’s good to write stuff down and get it out of your system. I wasn’t expecting to be thanked for my mental ramblings. But one of the beauties of the internet is that it allows you to write what is on your mind and in this way it is almost theraputic. Certainly where it comes to issues like gurus and religions you have to be careful with what you are dealing with and so websites like Brian’s are a good haven for getting stuff off your chest and checking in with like minded people who share things in common.
What i personally need in my life is a fit and good looking woman who could stay perpetually young and buxom with a wealth of knowledge un-dreamed of. I realise this is a fantasy that cannot come true in this lifetime but men were created to dream. 🙂
Actually i have a girlfriend, it is a long distance internet affair for the most part; we have met before but being so far away (she is in India, i am in england) the kind of quality a relationship demands is just not being fulfilled this way. She is my soul mate, which i base on many occurances that are inexplicable in mundane terms, but physically i haven’t risen above my carnal desires because i don’t find her greatly attractive. It is a hard one, indeed. How do you motivate yourself to continue to love someone you feel very little physical attraction to, esp as the years go by?
My path in life has been singular, to say the least. I got fed up with catholic dogma and stopped going to church when i was 12. Not hard to see through that bullshit. Of course, like most people, i continued to have feelings for Jesus as it is hard not to like a guy like him (unless you come from the point of view that he taught hell fire, which i don’t). When i was 19 i “accidentally” discovered Autobiography of a Yogi and it literally changed my life. It’s hard for people to understand this kind of thing because we all judge from our own perspectives, many people get nothing from the book but as i said, it changed my life.
Yogananda was quite extraordinary and i am certain that yoga as we know it these days is due in large part to him. Most people go to a hatha yoga class and do the physical exercises but these kinds of yoga teachers actually, probably most of them without knowing it, borrow from the older yoga philosophies, and the first Yoga teacher to bring yoga out of India and implant it in the west was Yogananda although Vivekananda came before him but Vivekananda’s influence wasn’t as big in America. Autobiography of a Yogi is a book you can find in most book stores in the biography section these days – what a phenomena! I wonder, i do wonder, how many people in the world owe their spiritual thinking and subsequent practice of yoga to reading this book.
Yogananda’s guru even had some influences from the RSSB gurus in that there is an emphasis on sound and light in the teachings. And then there was that cult of premies, who taught techniques to see and hear light, which is independent of RSSB i think. A shame that the guru of that movement was such a douchebag, as most of them are.
I am like Brian – many years of meditation and not much to show for it. But i have some other experiences outside of meditation that prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this world is much more strange than we give it credit for. Let me give just one example of what i mean: raining frogs and fish. This phenomena has been documented and has occurred in many places on the planet at different times. There is supposed to be a natural explanation for this occurance but most skeptics steer well clear of it because the obvious blatant fact of it happening is intensely antagonistic to their worldview.
I’m sure almost everybody has heard of something, read something and experienced something that made them think twice about the the accepted norms of life. Probably most people have had a deja vu experience in their life, but hindsight removes the special quality of this experience from memory and skeptical analyses of it condemn it to a region of probabilities impersonally divorced from the happening completely.
I see this blog in a different light perhaps to what most of the people that post here see it in. First of all, although i have had an interest in RSSB literature for some years now, after i bought a used book by Charan Singh, i have never affiliated myself with this cult in any way. So i am not coming to this blog from an anti-RSSB stance even though i appreciate what i have read here. And secondly, i am not an atheist or a skeptic, although i am intimately familiar with them and all their arguments. I don’t think Brian is an inherently bad person with an agenda or anything. Far from it. To me, he is a seeker. He is seeking answers, and they haven’t come to him in his life so far in terms of some guru delivering spiritual experiences to him. But that is ok really. What exasperates me especially about you Brian, is that you have spent over 40 years meditating regularly and, forgive me if i am wrong, you have literally had no particularly strong spiritual experience from doing it. Now, that is what i would call a wasted life. It would have been better for you if you had done what everybody else does – drink, take more drugs, eat whatever you want, do whatever you want, and be happy about it all. But to your merit you have been meditating and eating healthily even though these things have brought you less than the effort you put into doing them. And it is good to look to science and skepticism for answers. But (you knew that “but” was coming) i can’t help but feel as though people like you, and me, are probably doing something wrong somehow. Have you ever wondered why primitive people or less intelligent people seem to have wonderful spiritual experiences and yet you seem to have very little? I bet you have. And probably many times. But something is making me want to say to you, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Personally, i find the atheist arguments shallow and false, since they mostly rely on religious dogmas that any intelligent person read in the literature can debunk immediately. I also find the skeptic arguments lacking since they often appear dogmatic and aren’t at all aquainted with the facts of any particular case. I don’t know why, but many people fall for these shallow arguments, especially young people. The preponderance of them on the internet doesn’t make them true. If you are going to be skeptical, be skeptical of your very own existence, if you want to take it to that level.

David R, I’m curious: what do you think is the difference between a “spiritual experience” and an “experience”?
You say that I haven’t had “spiritual” experiences. I don’t know what you mean. In meditation, and out of meditation, I’ve had all sorts of experiences.
Many have been deeply meaningful, satisfying, pleasurable, wonder-filled. How is it possible to tell which are “spiritual” and which are “not-spiritual”?
And does it matter? Aren’t you really simply saying that different people have different experiences. I know people who travel all around the world. I haven’t been to the places they have, but I’ve been to other places that they haven’t.
You seem to imply that I, or others, should have had experiences that I haven’t had, but others have. Well, seemingly it’d be equally valid to say that you, or others, should have had the experiences I’ve had.
I don’t believe that anyone can live anything other than his/her own life. Nor should they want to. We all have our own experiences. I’ve stopped classifying them into “spiritual” and “non-spiritual,” because I have no idea what “spiritual” means anymore.
Do you?

Answer the following question with a yes or a no
Have you ever seen inner light and heard inner sounds as stipulated in their specificity by any or all of the RSSB gurus?
If your answer to this question is “no”, that is what i mean by a spiritual experience you have not had.
If your answer is “yes”, then you should be more honest and more open minded towards phenomena that are considered extraordinary and not mundane, instead of appearing all the time to be a complete skeptic and atheist about those things.
That is a simple way of putting it.
By the way, if you don’t know what the word spiritual means what does it mean to ask me to explain to you what it means? If the definition of the word is not enough so much so that you have some kind of understanding of what it means but prefer to say that you don’t actually know what it means, it is going to make absolutely no difference if you ask me to define it in my own way since it seems you have already made up your mind about what it is. But i will give you the benefit of the doubt in this instance by saying that in this context “spiritual” means hearing specific inner sounds and seeing specific inner sights as the Beas gurus have specifically written about. From here, it is a simple matter for you to tell the world whether or not you have experienced those “spiritual” things and then i think the rest of the world can make up its mind what to believe based on what you say as opposed to what you actually say.

David R, you’ve made yourself clear: you believe that “spiritual” is what one particular religious organization means by that term, not something universal, objectively true, or scientifically demonstrable.
That’s fine.
Just keep in mind that, as I noted before, everyone has individual experiences which they are justified in calling “spiritual.” Do you really believe that only you, and a few million people in the world who think like you, have a monopoly on spirituality?
Consider…
— A Christian could say, “David, unless you have experienced the loving presence of Jesus, who died for our sins, you have no idea what spirituality is all about.”
— A Buddhist could say, “David, unless you have experienced the emptiness of all existence, which entails the realization of no-self, you have no idea what spirituality is all about.”
— A Taoist Tai Chi practitioner could say, “David, unless you have experienced the chi/qi energy flowing freely through the subtle channels in your body, you have no idea what spirituality is all about.”
— A Muslim could say, “David, unless you have prostrated yourself before Allah and embraced the timeless truths of the Holy Koran in Arabic, you have no idea what spirituality is all about.”
— A pagan, pantheistic nature worshipper could say, “David, unless you have looked at a babbling brook, or an ancient old growth tree, and felt the oneness of you and all of nature, you have no idea what spirituality is all about.”
— A scientist could say, “David, unless you have experienced the cosmos through the clear eyes of factual reality, knowing your place in an unimaginably vast, complex, mysterious universe, you have no idea what spirituality is all about.”
I’m familiar with spiritual dogmatism. Been there, done that.
You’re entitled to consider that only your outlook on “spiritual” is correct, and all others are wrong, but you have no basis for being so confident that you, and only you, know what ultimate truth is.
And you have no basis for assuming that someone who hasn’t had the same “spiritual” experiences that someone else supposedly has had, is somehow deficient or lacking in a sense of what life is all about. That’s ridiculous. You should get out more and learn how many diverse ways there are to live life happily and meaningfully.

Brian, oh but you are wrong. For the sun is just as much a part of your reality as it is to me, and that is not “spiritual” any more than the inner sounds and inner lights are “spiritual”. Hence i will ask you one more time: did you experience the inner sounds and lights as described by those gurus in all the specificity? If your answer is no, there is nothing more that i need to say. EVerybody else can make up their own mind about that.

Dear Brian,
I also endorse your just offered opinion.
But I do, further, think that “Richard Lionel Rupert Asquith Worcester” is not a real name (as mine is), but that this is just another made-up disguise for some coward to hide behind.
By their acts/words they are known.
Robert Paul Howard

I endorse the two endorsements recently made by Robert Paul Howard on this blog. One here and one in a different thread.
I have, upon a few occasions, experienced inner sound and light a la RSSB and others. Impressive, but ultimately no big deal in my case. I’m the same shmuck (walrus) I always was. And so are you.
I do think David R’s comments above on vegetarianism are pretty good. I would say, however, that if you buy the packaged meat you are involved in the killing because if no one bought the meat the animals would not be killed.
I was a vegetarian for decades but I found out that my ancestors’ genetics put me in a bind. I am healthier, by far, eating meat. There is a synergy in animal protein assimilation that is not available in the vegetable kingdom for humans, imo. I would prefer to be veg but I prefer health more.
I once calculated that my maximum physical output in terms of strength, speed and endurance was about 10% greater when eating a meat, eggs, vegetable, fruit, nut, seed diet than on a veg diet that included grain, beans, tofu and dairy products.
That was more meaningful when I was participating in vigorous sports, but nowadays it still translates into speedier manipulation of the remote control and rising out of the recliner to get to the bathroom.
By the way, I suggest that a good investment is in the stock of companies that make gluten-free products. It has taken decades for it to become mainstream knowledge, much like cigarettes, that gluten is bad for you. Don’t fear the meat, fear the wheat!

David R, you didn’t directly answer my question: do you believe there is only one form of genuine spirituality — that which supposedly involves contact with some sort of divine sound and light?
You keep asking me if I’ve experienced “inner” sounds and lights, as if this is some sort of really important touchstone for something or other. I have no idea why you’re so interested in what I’ve experienced.
But since you are, I’ll ask you a couple of questions which I assume you’ll have no problem answering, given your interest in discussing this subject.
(1) Have YOU ever seen inner light and heard inner sounds as stipulated in their specificity by any or all of the RSSB gurus? If so, please describe those inner lights and sounds that you’ve experienced and describe what they meant to you, what you’ve learned from them, and how they’ve changed your outlook on life.
(2) Have you asked this question of other RSSB initiates? What answers have you gotten?
(3) Have you asked the current guru of RSSB, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, if he’s ever had the inner experiences of sound and light that you’re interested in? If so, what was his answer?
(My guess: you won’t get an answer out of him, just as his guru, Charan Singh, never spoke about his own inner experiences. Which means, knowing whether someone says they’ve had an experience of inner sound and light isn’t important in the RSSB/Sant Mat teachings, since gurus don’t describe their own experiences.)
(4) What if I told you that I’ve had some marvelous experiences of divine sound and light? What if I told you that I’ve never had any experience of divine sound and light? Could you tell which answer was really true? What difference would it make to you if you got one answer or the other?
Lastly… you seem to be after an answer to something that you’re either afraid to ask about directly, or are incapable of asking about directly. Why this interest in what I’ve experienced, and not experienced, in my life?
Again, do you believe that everybody should have a certain experience, or they haven’t really lived? Hard for me to imagine that you do, but maybe I’m wrong. Read the tagline on this blog: “preaching the gospel of spiritual independence.”
If you aren’t finding me receptive to a particular brand of dogmatism, don’t be surprised. I don’t believe that the word “spiritual” has much, if any, meaning. And if it does, what is “spiritual” is an individual decision. If you disagree, I’d be interested in learning why you believe in some sort of objective spiritual truth.

Brian, i asked you the question and you are asking me questions. I’m not particularly interested in discussing what the word spiritual means. I tried to ask you a simple question and you haven’t been able to answer it. You can try again. Otherwise there is no need to continue this.

Thanks for your non-answer, David. You’ve made clear where you’re coming from.
I’ve had lots of experiences during my forty-three years of daily meditation. I’ve heard some inner sounds; I’ve seen some inner lights. Whether this has any “spiritual” significance I strongly doubt. The mind can produce all kinds of phenomena that exist only within the human brain. Neuroscience knows that. Anyone who takes psychedelics knows that.
I believe in searching for what is most real in life. But I’m skeptical that particular individual experiences point toward the deepest reality. This is like mistaking an apple or a ten-ton truck falling for the force of gravity. Gravity is more fundamental than any particular manifestation of it.
I realize the appeal of chasing after supposedly mind-blowing “spiritual” experiences. However, my personal conclusion is that the self which is trying to become so “spiritual” doesn’t really exist, so attempts to become what one is not are doomed to fail. I’m not really a Buddhist, but I resonate with Buddhist skepticism about searching for reality in a transcendent realm beyond the here and now.

Ok. I would be interested in finding out exactly what inner sounds and lights you said you experienced. Because it would be all too easy to say the music in your mind and the subvocalisms together with quasi-hallucinatory hypnagogic imagery constitutes inner light and sound.
That is an important point because according to the literature when you see the inner light and go into it you are essentially in a kind of Out-of-Body experience state and travelling to dimensions that would constitute the afterlife state and higher realms. If these things are actually real it would strike me as easily the most important issue facing human beings – existence after death of the physical body.
Regarding the word spiritual, it obviously has so many different connotations it is useless to try to confine and define it. When i used it before i meant it in a simple sense to distinguish it from religious beliefs. I was not specific because, as you said, it doesn’t really mean much if anything at all.
Did your 50 plus years of life searching for truth end up without some kind of proof of “God”? I wouldn’t be surprised at this as i don’t believe either that such a thing can be known, even if it exists.
If the here and now is what you are interested in how about toying with Eckhart Tolle and his “power of now”? The advaita teachings seem more up your alley. Is there a Buddhist equivalent of advaita?
The way i see it is like this: if we want to search for the truth (and all of us do) then we need to accept all phenomena that occur and not just dismiss things we feel skeptical of. BY this i mean that there are state of consciousness which seem to accompany physiological markers that are inexplicable by normal means. I will give 2 examples of this.
1) Religious ecstasy trances. There is a particular type of religious trance where the physiological parameters of the human body are put into a state of death, or suspended animation. There is no heart beat and no respiration occuring, which means a person is effectively dead, even though they come back out of the trance condition with HEIGHTENED energy, sensory perception, and no brain damage. Just like the NDE, this is scientifically mysterious.
2) Stigmata. My case in point is the Catholic monk Padre Pio. Firstly, hysterics and hypnotised subjects can be made to bleed wounds similar to stigmata given the appropriate conditions, but in the case of Pio the explanation that his wounds are hysterical or due to autohypnosis were refuted. And the most impressive thing about him is that when he died the wounds in his hands and feet etc completely disappeared. Not a trace left of them. All the attempts to refute Pio have failed and that is why there is only a couple of skeptical articles on him in the entire Google search.
I think the overall point i am trying to make here is really quite simple. I don’t find atheism or skepticism plausible by any means, even though i share similar opinions sometimes with such people who espouse these views. So the likes of Randi, Shermer, Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and so on, do not impress me very much. I think those people are intellectually dishonest and they seem to be on a crusade of some kind, which effectively renders them fanatics. Where i agree with them all is their arguments against religion. But religion is not “God” and it isn’t “spirituality”.
And lest i forget, Padre Pio was a catholic, and so there are good reasons to be skeptical of any claims made in his name or the name of that religion. Having been raised a catholic myself and seen through the ridiculous beliefs and dogmas of that religion from an early age, i am by no means under the influence of it. My interest in Padre Pio stems from my research into anomalous phenomena. Why does someone like him develop stigmata wounds, absolutely adore the Roman Catholic Church, and so on, when it is easy enough to see that the beliefs of that religion are baseless? That is the question. I am not convinced that the particular religious beliefs a person holds make any difference whatsoever to any truthful spiritual experience they may have, but in this instance it is very, nay extremely difficult to brush aside this evidence.

As I said, I have had “inner” experiences of brilliant kaliedoscopic radiant light. I have heard tinkling of bells, humming of bees, a reverberating thunderous blasting roar, like an open “E” string on a bass guitar amplified through 10,000 Marshall amps while emanating from a blinding white light that didn’t blind or the sound deafen. I have “traveled” at incomprehensible speed through light years of space and universes to “gardens” composed of colors outside the spectrum of known physics that I have never seen before. I have seen shimmering opalescent angels that speak without speaking.
I don’t take this seriously. It didn’t give me supernatural powers or make me a better person. It didn’t confer any special ability or spiritual status or rank. Nor did I walk around in a state of bliss where even pictures of Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi or Bill Mahr would not elicit a reaction of revulsion.
It is just phenomena. Mind stuff. The source of it all is still the same and fully present whether sitting on a dweep in Daswan Dwar or in the filthy toilet stall at an overcrowded Taco Bell.

@tucson you mentioned something about the diet that I agree with. In addition I found out this morning that most candles contain animal fat. Why are satsangi’s not allowed to eat glycerine while they are allowed to burn candles’s with stearine 🙂 Did the guru not know?

tucson,
I beg to differ when you said it is “just mind stuff” because what does even mean? It doesn’t seem very believable when you type you have had all these fantastic experiences and in the next breath say “but i don’t take it seriously”. That seems to be a total logical disconnect.
What did your practices consist of when you had all these experiences?
I don’t see what morality has to do with any of this. If you blow your mind on LSD you have some kind of world shattering personal experience but this has nothing to do with good behaviour. Were you taught that having spiritual experiences somehow made a person more moral? There seems to be something wrong with this point of view in my opinion.
To you these kinds of experiences might seem ever-present and so lose some kind of importance in your estimation but i would say that you are in a MASSIVE minority when it comes to these experiences, since most people on this planet do not have them. I have not had these experiences even though i have tried for many years. Obviously whatever it is you were doing worked.

tucson,
You are in a MASSIVE minority when it comes to your divine experiences, since most people on this planet do not have them. So, I shall conclude that you are with the angels from above and a totally kool guy.

Or tucson has better access to psychedelic drugs than most people do.

Yes, Nietzsche, RSSB followers are also allowed to use leather products with the excuse, as given by Charan Singh, that most animals are killed for their meat and leather is just a by-product, which is a bogus excuse, and that in India leather is often gathered from buffalo and brahman cattle that died naturally. Charan also used to say that we have to live in this world and should not be too fanatical about these things. So, under his rule cheese with rennet was permitted. But what happens when Gurinder takes over? He has forbidden rennet but still allows leather as Charan did. This is irrational inconsistency from one “perfect Param Sant Satguru” to the next. I think someone needs to bring to Gurinder’s attention that candles contain an animal component. Also, lipstick and other products have ingredients of animal origin. What is the difference between glycerine, rennet, leather and meat? They are all animal derivatives and it seems they all should be banned according to RSSB karma teachings.
David R wrote in quotes:
“I beg to differ when you said it is “just mind stuff” because what does even mean? It doesn’t seem very believable when you type you have had all these fantastic experiences and in the next breath say “but i don’t take it seriously”. That seems to be a total logical disconnect.”
–Nothing I could say will make it believable. Phenomena come and go in consciousness or as appearance in Mind. Nothing is, in an absolute sense, any more important or significant than anything else, imo. Relatively speaking, yes, some things appear more significant than others.
“What did your practices consist of when you had all these experiences?”
–Some of these things occured while performing meditation as per RSSB (I was initiated by Charan Singh in 1970) while others occured spontaneously or while performing other practices. Actually, all these experiences happened spontaneously and not as an act of apparent will on my part. I can’t sit down and duplicate these experiences. I have no special powers. (People who know me would laugh that I even bothered to clarify that.)
“To you these kinds of experiences might seem ever-present and so lose some kind of importance in your estimation but i would say that you are in a MASSIVE minority when it comes to these experiences, since most people on this planet do not have them. I have not had these experiences even though i have tried for many years. Obviously whatever it is you were doing worked.”
–Although probably not the majority, many people have visions and religious experiences. Sometimes they are discounted as dreams or hallucinations and they may well be. Who is to say? David, it sounds like you are trying too hard to have these experiences for YOU and the idea of “you, me, I” is the source of all difficulty in the first place.
Roger, the only thing kool about me is that I send good pictures of females with special beer carrying devices while riding motorcycles.
Brian, The experiences I described above were not under the influence of psychotropic substances. But you are right in that I have taken my share of LSD, peyote, mescaline, ‘shrooms and the like. In fact, I have a nice San Pedro cactus growing out front right now (for decorative purposes at this point in life). When taking such substances my experiences were more supportive of a Buddhist-like “no-self” reality based on a oneness with nature as it is. There were few hallucinations/visions I was not able to recognize as such. For me, the oneness-buddhist-no-self type stuff was valid. The visions were just passing phenomena like everything else.

tucson, nicely said… especially what you wrote at the end of your comment: “For me, the oneness-buddhist-no-self type stuff was valid. The visions were just passing phenomena like everything else.”
This is pretty much my experience also, though my “vision” stuff was almost entirely psychedelics-produced, which is why I thought of leaving the mostly-unserious comment referring to the possibility of your visions having a similar cause.
I agree. It seems absurd to argue that some experiences have more cosmic significance than others. It’s sort of like traveling around Earth. I’ve never seen the pyramids. I’ve never been to Paris. I’ve never even stood on the edge of the Grand Canyon. Good god! I’ve never been to Crater Lake and it’s right here in Oregon!
But I’ve been to lots of other places. I’ve done lots of other things. Am I better or worse than people who have been to other places and done other things? Neither, in my opinion. Like you said, if there’s really no “me,” then what difference does it make what “I” remember having done?

Tucson wrote:
‘But what happens when Gurinder takes over? He has forbidden rennet but still allows leather as Charan did.’
Yes and if you look into the about of animals killed because of cheese versus the amount of vital food in cheese for the vegetarian than I think this is a crime toward the human 🙂
By the way if I hold that I am alive than I also hold that everything is alive. Than everything has consciousness in the same way as we do. Cooking a potato is killing it and than eating its flesh. Thats just the way it is. That is why I don’t spoil the food that I cooked but eat it with respect for the life that was once in it.

By the way did you realize that this spam checker on this site that asks to type words makes us translate complete books 🙂 Wonder what we’ve contributed so far.

tucson,
LOL, yes the pic of girl(possibly a divine angel, relatively speaking) was a kool thing to send. I think, I still have that pic in my pc files. That girl, truely is within the MASSIVE minority. LOL……

Tara,
the ladies always get what they wish for (grin)…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOvT72Y277s
http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/soa/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Anarchy
http://www.iwatchsonsofanarchy.com/episodeguide/

i think we should follow what our soul says if she says this path is right then don’t go by material words

Tara, seems to me you value spirituality in your life even though you aren’t perhaps gung ho about it all. I can relate to that.
But when you say vivid guru dreams are you referring to dreams in sleep or dream-like things in meditation?
And you have your Vedic astrology beliefs there too. I believe in Vedic astrology as well. If you can find a real astrologer they can be so accurate your balls would fall off.

‘it is being reported Gurinder is now saying the same. Gurinder has even said the all the Beas books from the past should be burned’.
That is absolute rubbish, I’ve never heard such a thing, Gurinder has been asked extensive times in Satsangs if there will be any new books coming out. His answer was simple, its the same teachings, and there are lots of books from the past that need to be read.
Also you quote
‘I believe the practice of surat shabda yoga, if successful,will produce self induced schizophrenia’
Rubbish,rubbish, Mike, you are the writer of Beas secrets and you are wrong. I know a vast amount of initiates who have practiced surat shabd yoga successfully, they are the best human beings I have ever met. They don’t criticize anyone, they have great amount of compassion and a host of other things. They don’t possess any attributes of
schizophrenia.
Mike along with your buddy David, you’re not critics of the path, you’re just plain haters. I analyse your website that supposedly ‘exposes’ RS, you come across as someone who is very frustrated with the path and keeps on coming up with extensive amounts of stuff to discourage people from following it.
Other people in this forum who have left the path keep on parading you, because they are hearing what they want to hear.
They too are frustrated, they want to hear ‘bad’ things just to make themselves feel better.
I don’t believe RS is 100% genuine, and I don’t know if there is a heaven or hell.
But I honestly hope justice is done to liars. I’m sick of people like Kirpal, maybe even Faqir Chand and yourself come up with stuff that isn’t genuine just because you have some kind of personal grudge against something.

Gaz, you aren’t talking about me. I am not supportive of the idea of atheism and psuedoskepticism.

Sorry David R, I didn’t even know you were on here, I was referring to someone else.
Over the last year or so I’ve been getting real frustrated, as I have said I don’t believe in RS 100%, Baba Ji doesn’t expect you to either at the start.
Nonetheless I have decided I am still going for initiation. I want to implement the RS teachings. I keep on hearing listening to the sound current will send you to the DR.
From my experience I know plenty of initiates that have reached a high level within and haven’t gone mental. They have become better human beings.
One of the things is when one goes within he can talk to the radiant form and ask a host of questions.
I would want to get into the minds of these critics, whether it be Sikhs,Brian etc and see what their real intentions are.
But I want to go within and I am going to be asking questions that are probalby on a lot of people’s mind. E.g. the authenticity of Faqir Chand and Dera secrets.
When I find out the answers, I am going to write a book about my experiences from going within. This might not be condoned by RS, but I am going to go for it even if my spiritual progress stops, because I want the truth.
This is going to be a step forward, not only into RS but as spirituality as a whole.
Either I will make the step forward myself or I will ask someone who has gone within and met the radiant form. There are plenty of people I know but I don’t think many would share their experiences.
I want to end this discussion on doubts etc, had Faqir Chand maybe lived another 10-15 years or so we would probalby have come to a conclusion but I still question the authenticity of Faqir.
I have been attending RS satsangs since i was 3, now I am 20, so another 4 years away from initiation. I’m going to meditate diligently for as long as I am alive.
I want answers, I want the truth, I firmly believe that God exists and I want to meet him.

well according to me i am satisfied with few people who commented there. I think yes there is no power in RSSB. They are just using the money making tricks.The main thing is that they are very clever people and they are handling the people brilliantly they give a speech which covers the problems which are generally faced by most of the human beings. Now when a person who is depressded in his life reached to these kind of guru’s,they develop a feeling of god for that guru and think that they are giving the solution of their problem but in reality they are simply following psychology,they know what a normal human wants. Even few of my friends are also following them and forcing me to follow, but i have observed that everything is illogical whatever the benefits they are getting is just from the meditation which is already provided by our saints thousants of years back…..

Manish-
Guru Nanak,Jesus are no different from Gurinder Singh and co.

Gaz-
well i have not read your previous comments in detail but yes in short i just wanna know what does it mean ,wheather you believe guru nanak,jesus and gurinder singh or not????

I was in one of the other santmat groups some years ago. They are ALL frauds, only after power and money and indeed they are clever, very very clever and by the way also all of them extremely rich as far as i can see. The socalled teachings are packed very cleverly to deceive people. They are organized like a well oiled multinational,with many resources and know all about marketing and manipulating words etc. Many of the followers are good fine people. It is a shame, to deceive people this way and all these guru s know exactly what they are doing. Socalled meditationgroups pfff, it is only about power. but not for the followers. The socalled meditation itself is first of all useless, does not bring inner peace nothing, 2,5 hours a day it is crazy and very unhealthy. Those inner sounds etc is all nonsense and dangerous, the meditation is very dangerous for people who are not very stable or had bad past, and the diet is destructive for some people (genetically some can not digest milk, really dangerous) and not animalfriendly at all. People who become psychotic and drop out are left to their own devices. The socalled inner help tsss all lies. It is dangerous. I am happy I left. Humans are all equal. greetings from me.

Mary,
What guru did you follow? Your story sounds interesting.

Radhasoami is a big fraud who is misusing religion for the sake of grabbing land.

Some people are seriously ‘illiterates with degrees’,they don’t know anything else than interfering, first of all not a single guru of Radha Soami said that he was secong form of god or anything like that, he is a messenger who just wants us to walk on the path leading to god, in India there are many different gurus from different names who started few decades ago and u can see legal cases against them once or many times, but radha soami is more than 100 yrs old and still no case….. u just listen to he’s statsang and he never tells anyone to follow him, or donate money or to do anything else than meditating for god….. give him 1 yr of devotion and u’ll realise everything…. my parents are devoted to them for 23 years and still want me to join….. its the oldest spiritual orgainisation….and still stable coz it was one of the firsts and is part of truth…. All I’m saying and also babaji says that…. don’t pray me or anything…that’s why only 2-3 photos of himself are released till now….because he don’t want us to pray him like a god…. just wants us to be ourselves to the fullest…100%… and meditation is the key to success….listen to his satsangs…u’ll feel he just wants good for us…..what does he wants from us in return????? why would he fake it…….and not only him…all of radha soami gurus for more than 100 years??? i have seen very poor people who can’t donate anything attending satsangs…and who still are too much devoted from generations… Why a con-man would say not to follow him just meditate, be a positive godly person and then follow yourself? you guys should visit dera satsang beas, Punjab. Spend some time, get knowledge of the life there and reply back….. tell me how muchthey earn for themselves or whatever negative thoughts u have right now… and yeah i was aggressive in begining coz i am a 22 yr old guy…so its natural… 😀

Radha Soami is an true masters can anyone prove them wrong .Radha Soami to all .

We people dont have eyes to see what is right or wrong for us

Just skimmed through the comments on this thread. One thing is glaringly obvious – people finding fault to justify their actions in not managing to strictly follow the principles of Sant Mat. Also finding difficulty in maintaining the strictness of meditation, controlling the excesses of mind not just when sitting but throughout each waking moment.
Its about wanting to indulge isn’t it, and then the guilt which needs to be justified. So then they blame the teacher and have to find fault with the teachings, instead of looking at themselves.
I am so far from perfect as a satsangi, but I refuse to blame anyone else, just kinda take the urgency out of being a ‘perfect disciple’ and do the very best I can. It is a battle with the mind but why blame the messenger?
I just don’t see a scam in RSSB at all, and I see people joining together here on this blog with others of a like mind to have a whinge… and thats okay as well, if it helps. I had a laugh about someone getting initiated by 7 Radhasoami Masters, talk about hedging your bets!
If we see a scam then who is fooling who? Sant Mat is about finding out who we really are.
Not doing the blame game here, just some observations which won’t make me very popular, yeah I guess it is nitpicking lol

Most gurus and spiritual leaders are not scammers – they really believe what they’re teaching. Their subjective experience has convinced them of what they’re trying to convert others to join them in believing.
Religion is most often a communicable disease; less often, a scam.

@ Mike Williams
Doubts came into every mind before taking any decision. So in this case too. But every person takes the best decision in his/her capacity for his life. And people to whom you considered ignorant and villagers, are satisfied with their inner journey. That’s why they are still with RSSB. I am not a satsangi but i see the values that a true satsangi has. They never criticize anyone.

RSSB unleash their quest for ultimate political power after claiming to have conviniently
remained apolitical since inception possibly waiting for right time & opportunity
by endorsing family member-an ex IPS officer as potential Delhi CM who chose
people in power (instead of sharing the platform with upcoming party which may
have a long way to go/taking cue from resp. Baba ramdev ji)as current prime minister/govt.
considered pro hinduism & known to be impressed/chosen her for endorsing his projects like
swach Bharat-interestingly RSSB sect chief may endorse living with modest means whereas
inspiring for family relations with buisness empires i.e a formerly large pharma co. &
now insurance sector in India & abroad targeting the royalty lineage trying to retain genetically
blessed people as his followers-Hence not surprisingly the legacy has been retained by members of
same family over the years where positive image & genetically blessed people are retained as part
of family to ensure that it remains confined to the family & the nominated head is supported by the
family as they know that creating emprire from scratch is impossible & hence supporting the
nominated head with vested interests is the best/only option available especially now when
their second line i.e.head of major centres have evolved as equally strengthened–obviously
ordinary people with modest means of earning cannot compete with people with resources in
terms of time/money & devotion hence have to let go the demanding volunatry service -people
who are willing to go to any extent to gain social acceptance are the vulnerable
& easy targets-offering people in higher judiciary/ people with political
influence back home in punjab/Delhi/other states obligatory positions/exclusivity/VIP treatment
& personal appointments reserved only for selected few-rest must meditate to reach the level
& interact with him within their soul-following up with their network abroad
-now seeking to have control over all 3 major constituents of any democracy namely
judiciary,legislation & Executive with ex lt. guv. of delhi in their kitty.
Now is the time to seek returns for eye camps/free/subsidised food services offered to people
& cashing on the unpaid followers associated to the sect riding on their guilt/weaknesses.
Interestingly most of the followers are not able to improve their social status i.e.gap between
elite/middle/poor people remain conspicuous in their gatherings.very few people know that
question answer sessions abroad had created some very uncomfortable situations with previous
head (it’s a different matter that the recorded versions allowed to circulte among people
were usually the edited versions where only positive & submissive peoples’ utterances were
retained to give impressions that people abroad were equally intimidated by the sect head
which is easily contradicted by the critical reviews over the net which are usually asked
to be ignored as the work of detractors/competitors/enemies of the sect)
-hence current head while replicating the same modelin Indian context have categorically limited
the age criteria to early twenties especially targeting the teenagers
who are presumably ignorant about the large picture & more bothered about their
regular/innocent daily life rigmoroles categorically the RSSB Tower Bandra,Mumbai,
California RSSB complex,Vast landscape in Delhi/NCR apart from numerous centres in
every nook & corner/along the highways cashing on conflicts amongst other 2 big religions
namely Islam/christianity,proliferation & number of centres/land occupied across the globe
could easily be identified as political power they may command/influence
riding on the positive image so far…. clearly indicating that the flaws
are effectively masked/suppressed out of fear/devotion/manipulation/PR activities
as they know even the politically motivated people cannot ignore the
presence & influence they yield amongst the common man especially in democratic
& spiritually infuenced set up in a country like India.

PPPD Swamiji Maharaj was the founder of Radhasoami fath/religion. He was the incarnation of Radhasoami – the supreme power. His disciples later took forward His teachings. The chain of Gurus were neither incarnations nor God but the ‘Supreme Current’ of Radhasoami flowed through them. The eighth Sant Satguru truely is Revered Dr. Prem Saran Satsangi Sahab of Dayalbagh Radhasoami Satsang.
An important point to remember is that the current of Supreme Power Radhasoami flows only through one Sant Satguru. All other so called Gurus are not true representatives of Radhasoami Religion.

Sunil get a shrink

–
Hi Sunil
SwamiJi Maharaj
was initiated by Tulsu Sahib
Nobody can even come close to The Source on his’s own.
777

Well, my father started the medication at the age of 34. From my experience I could say something must be there. This is not blind faith.
Evidence 1, he started getting “surti” where person shivers automatically. This came after his daily devotion of 2.5 hours and after 15 years of initiation.
Evidence2, I know my uncle who is now friend of my father has same experience.
I am not sure what this about.

Hmm how about sitting still 2.5 hrs for 15 years and seeing what happens? Maybe one just starts to shiver. It’s no evidence.

To Rajiv, Sir very strange, 15 years and that also 2.5 hours. In 5 years Parhlad and Dhruv got GOD and still you are saying for Surti. Sir, what is Surat, what is Nirat and where does its place, Go to a Sanatani Saint he will definitely help your above stated relatives.

Apart from millions going in, seeing the rivers of Sound and Light coming from Him
hitch-hike there in which ever grows
HARSH said in 2014
when he was 22
“”” . All I’m saying and also babaji says that…. don’t pray me or anything…that’s why only 2-3 photos of himself are released till now….because he don’t want us to pray him like a god…. just wants us to be ourselves to the fullest…100% “””
YES this is the greatest miracle of all
Myriads of Paparazzi’s today , . . . Countless Ultra HD 4K zoomable cameras/phones around
and only 3 photo s available, He gave himself during 26 years
Think Princess Diana
Chapeau they say here in France
777

No difference between GOD and Satguru
Gurur Brahma, Gurur Vishnu, Gurur devo Maheshwar
Gurur Sakshat Parbrahma tasme Shri Gurve namah.
Dhyan mulam guru murat Pooja moolam guru Padam
manter mulam guru vakyam moksh moolam guru kirpa.
only the person having lack of knowledge says difference.

Radhasoami baba is fake.
here are the proofs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMPa22oKpmQ
https://www.facebook.com/RealityOfRadhaSoami/