Religare’s money connections with the Radha Soami guru

Guru’s and Religious Leaders can’t win for losing; If they live off of donations they’re lazy beggars accepting handouts, if they get paid a salary they become professional priests sponging off their congregation, if they earn money through business investments they’re greedy materialists obsessed with money.

dj, none of the scenarios you mentioned are in play here. This is a case of a guru’s sons, and the guru himself, being “gifted” (through insider trading) tens of millions of dollars worth of stock by wealthy initiates. In a few days I’ll explain why this is ethically problematical.

I agree with this question – “So the question is… so what?”
Also – “a guru’s sons, and the guru himself, being “gifted” (through insider trading) tens of millions of dollars worth of stock by wealthy initiates” – what initiates do with their money is their business, isn’t it?

I wonder if the stocks pay a decent dividend?
That would allow the son’s to receive income without having to sell shares – and probably enough money for a pretty comfy existence.

well i’m sorry if these ppl truly have dicsovered a nobler truth to it all, they sure as shit should not be concerned with money, in fact, that should go directly to those who need it, even i know that and i aint no satguru.

PURE ECONOMICS

Although it happens every day, “insider trading” is illegal in the United States. Remember the Martha Stewart incarceration?
I don’t know Indian law regarding this, but without further information it would appear that Gurinder and family are benefiting unethically at the least and possibly illegally.
That would be an interesting headline…”Beas Satguru Under Arrest, Family Finances Being Audited”. Shades of the Rajneesh cult here in the U.S.
Could this be the unveiling-unraveling of RSSB? Probably not. You can say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.

Well, to start with, I don’t know of many people know about this !
Till a couple of years ago, the RSSB website gave just the address of the Dera. Now they feel the need to inform people about how the Guru earns his living. I guess they forgot to add ‘ Religare ‘ to the acres of wheat and mustard produce –
http://www.rssb.org/philosophy.php
( Click – Baba Gurinder Singh )

tucson, when I refer to “insider trading,” I was thinking of trading shares between company insiders. This is what happened in this case. A founder/owner of Religare acquired a bunch of shares and transferred some of them to the guru’s sons.
I think it’s reasonable to call this insider trading, and it would get reported as such. But this is a different sort of thing from the Martha Stuart affair, where shares were sold on a public stock exchange on the basis of insider information.
Like you said, that is illegal. But granting shares to certain people favored by a company at a low cost is legal. This is often used to reward executives, or compensate them in lieu of a higher salary.
Jen, my next post will discuss the ethics of these financial dealings. It’s a bit simplistic to say that people can do whatever they want with their money. Actually, both legal and moral standards argue against that statement.
Consider this: instead of a Indian guru and his family, substitute the Pope (imagine that he was a family man, being head of a different Catholic church), or a psychiatrist .
You’ve learned that the Pope’s family, or the psychiatrist’s family, has just been given many millions of dollars by a devoted Catholic believer, or by a patient in long-term psychotherapeutic treatment.
Wouldn’t this raise some red flags for you? Wouldn’t you wonder about the propriety of a religious leader, or secular counselor, personally getting large financial benefit from someone under their tutelage, or care?
It’s something to think about, anyway. I’ll offer up more food for thought in my next post.

Brian, regarding legal and moral arguments, you say that “granting shares to certain people favored by a company at a low cost is legal”. Okay, so that leaves moral standards and this I don’t understand either, because this is about Gurinder Singh’s family finances, which has nothing to do with the RSSB organization’s funds.
George, the RSSB Dera regularly provides free meals to the hundreds of thousands of local visitors and also free hospital care. Westerners can visit the Dera and stay for free and there is no obligation to donate in money seva.
I’m not convinced that there is anything wrong about these financial transactions and I don’t know why I care about fairness but I do! 🙂

Jen, in that case wouldn’t it be fair for a RS-representative to stop a visibly poor man from putting his few cents into the money-box ?
RSSB takes from the bottom line, that is their main devotee-bank.
I don’t know if you have seen the langar ( free-meal ) facility at the Dera. It may be worth comparing it to some other free-meal facilities of other institutions who have less than half the donation amounts coming in.

Many Splits, a story in one of the Sant Mat books that moves me very much is about a very old man who had walked for miles to visit the Dera and then stood in line to give his donation of one rupee into money seva and the Master or the sevadar did not want to take it and the old man was heartbroken and broke down in tears until his seva was then accepted. The devotional aspect of this story affects me because who are we to deny someone else’s faith and devotion and that which means so much to them.
I have visited the Dera and was there at the monthly satsang when there were hundreds of thousands of people and I was moved to see them lining up in queues for their free meal and seeing them sitting on the ground eating and then cleaning their plate for the next person and I don’t see anything wrong with this. This is their custom and it is their normal practice to sit on the ground and eat in this manner. I’m surprised that you expect anything different and I’m quite sure they don’t. There is a huge divide in India between the very rich and the extremely poor as you well know. It’s a pity that some of the millionaires in India don’t do more for the poor.

Jen, you seem to have missed my point. Or else you have a considerably looser view of what is ethical than I do.
As I’ll discuss in my next post, it is generally considered wrong for a person in a position of power to engage in business dealing with “underlings.” This is called a “dual relationship” in psychotherapeutic circles.
The guru is considered to be God in human form by devotees. The guru is believed to control the initiate’s karma/life/afterlife. Many, if not most, RSSB initiates would do anything the guru commands, or wants. Service to the guru is viewed as service to God.
So do you really think that it is acceptable for this “seva” (service) to consist of giving many millions of dollars to the guru and his family? Does this strike you as something Jesus or Buddha would tolerate or expect? (The RSSB guru is viewed as akin to Jesus by initiates, since he is a son of God sent to redeem/save selected souls.)
Religare is an organization controlled by RSSB initiates who reportedly are directed by the guru in their business dealings. Which include the transfer of millions of shares of Religare to the guru’s sons (and a lesser amount of shares to the guru himself).
I find this strange. It seems that you don’t. I guess we can simply agree to disagree about what sorts of behavior are expected of a guru.

Well, of course I took the ball and ran with it to a conclusion that probably will not manifest, just for the fun of it. There may not be any legal impropriety.
But, it certainly appears incongruous, unseemly and suspicious that the supposed embodiment of transcendent perfection as taught by RSSB, who has access to planes of conscious so sublime that this physical universe appears as a small speck of filth by comparison, would be taking advantage of connections from within the RSSB organization to accumulate the wealth of a world decried and disparaged in the RSSB literature and satsangs.

Brian, I’m looking forward to your next post and also to other comments, hopefully not just about looking for fault to justify their position in moving away from Sant Mat.

Jen, that was a sweet story from a sweet Sant Mat book, and that was probably in the age of Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji or Maharaj Charan Singh Ji. Though India is pretty much on an economic upswing, the old man who stands in the line to put his pennies in the money-box is still as poor as the guy in the story. On the other hand, RSSB has grown into a power-house with a billionaire Guru at the helm who is on a ( personal and professional ) economic roll.
Quoting you –
” There is a huge divide in India between the very rich and the extremely poor as you well know. It’s a pity that some of the millionaires in India don’t do more for the poor… ”
Yes, there is a huge divide between the rich and the poor here in India, but let me tell you that the CSR initiatives by India’s leading companies are shaping up to do their bit. What does RSSB do for the same impoverished lot that form the single largest majority of their following ? Very, very little – almost nothing. And, just about an hour ago, I confirmed with someone who works at Religare that Religare has no CSR initiative ! I would like to think that God would want to do some charity if he was a co-owner of a two billion dollar business house.
Langar or free-meal facilities are a common practice within many religious, spiritual and charitable organizations here in India. My point was, that with the kind of money that RSSB gets, they are in a position to give much more than bread and lentil in their free-meal facility. Did they really need to buy that property for ‘ seva ‘ in Amsterdam ? What you are witnessing now is the expansion of a cult, where the priorities now are quite different from the days of the Great Masters.
Tara.

Tucson, that was very well said !
Jen, I have now come to believe that RSSB and Sant Mat are quite different.

After reading the comment by Many Splits I had to look up what CSR meant: it’s Corporate Social Responsibility. Sounds like a good thing, whether in India or elsewhere.
http://www.prleap.com/pr/78626/

I am basically in complete agreement with Brian on this matter. It is outrageous that the guru of RSSB and his immediate family have been given gifts of stock worth 50+ million dollars each. This is unethical and improper in the extreme, and for many reasons. Jen apparently has no sense of right and wrong. The RS guru is not some solitary private person, he is a pubic religious figure, and it is incredibly inappropriate for him and his sons to be personally accepting tens of millions of dollars from some billionaire satsangi who made his money in big pharma (Ranbaxy). It is absolutely unethical. What is the matter with you Jen?
The RSSB and especially its leader and his family, are deeply corrupted. It is wrong for a person in such a position of power to engage in business dealing with underlings. Its disgusting and deplorable.
It is laugable that anyone thinks that giving some meagre hand-out of daal and chapatis to the poor somehow absolves or vindicates the RS leader and his family from the burden of responsibility. Only a fool would think this way.
I am amazed (but not surpised) that RS believers have so little integrity so as to turn a blind eye to such financial shenanigans and impropriety on the part of the guru and his family.
I find that very strange indeed.
And Jen, this is not at all about folks “looking for fault to justify their position in moving away from Sant Mat”. It is about the RS guru’s corruption and lack of ethics and lack of responsibility to his followers.

Hi tAo !
The strange thing is that not many RS believers know about this !
Every single person I spoke to earlier in the day seemed shocked. It is indeed big news to them. Well, on a regular day, who would go to the SEBI – Securities & Exchange Board of India website and search for shareholding patterns in a company called Religare ? This has deliberately been kept undercover, for very obvious reasons of course !
Malvinder Singh and Shivinder Singh of Ranbaxy are the grandsons of Charan Singh, which makes the current Guru their uncle.
Tara.

I sent the link of this post to the few ‘ open-minded ‘ RS believers I know.
I received a reply on my cellphone from one of them –
HOLY GRAIL / MONEY TRAIL

tAo, I can almost see you rubbing your hands together with glee, licking your lips and going heh heh, got them now!
Oh well, I just see family business… separate to sangat business… whatever

Jen,
Yes I have heard that about the Dera and hospital and it is very good, but if this is all just a front for their real business of making real money then its bullshit.
Any money they get should be plowed right back into their community if they are truly these enlightened beings that they are supposed to be.
I mean wtf does god in human form need billions of dollar for?
This is exactly why i am so weary of these mystical charlatans.

The money making is fine provided it is redirected straight back into the community, but if these ppl and their families are leading lavish lifestyles and accumulating wealth as a result of the movement; that is absolute nonsense, absolute rubbish – and it says more about their spirituality or lack thereof, then anyone ever could, and actually if there is a higher power, these chisellers should be the first to get some karmic mumbo jumbo payback.

Hi George.
There is a large-scale expansion plan for the Dera which is underway, and in my opinion the Dera has lost the quiet charm it had in the days of Charan Singh. Since I was going there since a very young age, I can see the change for myself. I often heard the elders in my family talking about Charan Singh’s dislike of turning the RSSB into a mass, quasi-religious movement. But that is exactly what his successor is doing.
Is the money being redirected straight back into the community ? I do not know, he may have given a substantial amount to the RSSB trust. But then, like one of the many ‘ miracles ‘ we hear about, someone would have praised the generosity of the Guru, like – ” Did you hear that Babaji gave one million dollars to the trust ! ” Well, nobody’s heard that !
Tara.

It is an eye opener. I also remember Baba Faqir Chand, a Radhasoami guru prohibited his blood relations from becoming members of the trust he created for his Temple of Humanity. His mission is still in poor condition. Telling truth does not help build big Deras. However I am committed to the thought that all innocent believers, whether Indian or American, have to be on their guards.

Jen wrote: “tAo, I can almost see you rubbing your hands together with glee, licking your lips and going heh heh, got them now!”
— Jen… on the contrary, I find this all rather sad and unfortunate. I don’t enjoy seeing RS leadership involved in unethical behavior of this kind or degree. You have a wrong impression about me. I am not like the way you seem to presume that I am.
You say that the master and his family business is personal, private, and separate from the RS org. I do not agree. This was not minor wealth that was accrued through honest hard work on the part of G.S. or his sons, it was a vast sum of money that was a gift that most likely had some strings attached. So its time to wake up and smell the doo-doo.

tAo, I agree, there probably is some kind of trade-off in place. Malvinder Singh comes across like a shrewd businessman, and in my opinion it is highly unlikely that he has given away millions for nothing in return.

tAo,
Sorry if my comment about you was a bit over the top. I am quite fond of you, just as I am of the others on this blog and it is wrong of me to make presumptions. It was a kind of joke that was a bit off which I realized after I had posted it. No bad feelings I hope 🙂
As far as the RS org goes I’ve decided to become more detached from it all now, which is probably best for my own good (it takes some time to detach completely).
Cheers

It really only shows how typically worldy and totally mundane as an economic not for profit RSSB is.All that is brought up by Brian over and over again points to this very fact.

ਮਾਇਆ ਮਮਤਾ ਮੋਹਣੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਵਿਣੁ ਦੰਤਾ ਜਗੁ ਖਾਇਆ ॥(੬੪੩-੧੮, ਵਾਰ-ਸੋਰਠਿ, ਮ ੩) The love of Maya is enticing; without teeth, it has eaten up the world. Bewitching is the love of wealth, which without teeth, has eaten up the world.
FEATURES OF SO CALLED GURUS:–
1.They wear loin-cloths three and a half yards long, and there fold sacred threads.
2.They have rosaries around their necks and glittering jugs in their hands.
3.They are not called the saints of God, but the cheats of Kanshi.
4.Such saints are not pleasing to me, They devour trees including their stems.
5.They scrub their vessels and put them on fire and born the wood after washing.
6.Digging up the earth, they, make two fire-places and eat up the whole man.
7.Those sinners ever wander in evil deeds and call themselves touch me not supreme saints.
8.Ever and over they roam about in self-conceit and drown all their families.
9.Because of the love of sons, relations and house-wife man is engrossed in the desire for fascinating mammon.(sggs ang 63)
10.Practising great deceit, the man acquires other’s wealth.Coming home, he squanders it on his sons and wife.
11.Outwardly wearing religious garbs, inwardly has the filth of worldliness.
12.O Sire, many men wear various religious garbs for begging and for filling their bellies.

Gurus should forgo personal wealth when taking on the job. A small sum of money should be paid out for personal use and Guru’s relatives should earn their livings through the profession or trade that they have studied. All gifted money should go to the organisation only and be carefully monitored by external audits. Religious organisations that are not distributing a percentage of their money to charity, should be taxed. The guru should have a monitored say in how money is spent on the organisation.
With the current focus on Darwinism, it does seem that the impulse for the survival (thrival) of the genes is in fact inherent and overrides all others.

Tao said,This was not minor wealth that was accrued through honest hard work on the part of G.S. or his sons, it was a vast sum of money that was a gift that most likely had some strings attached.
It is very likely that the shares of Religare transferred to Gurinder and his sons may be in compensation of some services provided by the Guru, because big businesses/ big deals in India can never be run, finalized and executed without the help of mediators of good approach and political connections and it seems that Gurinder would be a key person in providing these services, as is quite normal with most of the Gurus. I have always a feeling that the first line SEVADARS and the family members of the Guru would not give a dime to each other for free.
Even most of the lands acquired/purchased by RSSB are registered with the Registration Authorities for not more than 1 to 10 percent of the price paid for.

Shut up! If your information is right, and if this all calculations are correct why don’t anyone of you pitch your voice in media. I know you won’t because the piece of information on which you are jumping is just as fake as your intentions are. There are things that media has highlighted in recent past and they were not even a part of such a big scandal that you have mentioned. Why don’t you file a case against Guru or Organisation. You don’t have any choice shameless bloggers! you have got plentiful of time and thats what you profession is -” Doing nothing and defaming those who are doing good”.
Come on now, don’t reply me back. If you have guts I wan’t to see you and hear your voice on NEWS channels next time I switch on TV and will love to see your petition in court getting proved right.”
Take care.
Radhasoami Jee!
Please accept this challenge! And enlighten everyone.

Deepak, the accuracy of the information in the posts about Religare and RSSB hasn’t been challenged. So that non-challenge has been won.
No one to my knowledge is saying that anything illegal is involved here. So your comment about a court doesn’t make any sense. I’m not sure what you’re bothered about.
If you have different facts to share, please do. Otherwise, everyone — including you, naturally — is free to interpret the facts as they wish.

–The RSSB cult-is like all the other cults.a strong armed approach to controlling the ignorant masses–who will donate their blood,sweat, and tears to “Perfect Living Masters”. Look how the Roman Catholic church has duped BILLIONS for Millenia-no big deal.All I truly believe are the 4 Yugas–and thank whatever that the Kali Yuga will close with a BANG(and soon I hope)-v152

Mr. Deepak Kumar Kushwaha – Radha Soami Jee ! Radha Soami Jee !
It was great to read your comment, please do not leave this site, we need people like you here. I mean it !
So, you are saying that the SEBI website is a fake ?
Either you are illiterate or a fool, maybe both.

anybody care to elaborate what these Religare share transfer ‘facts’ might be?
That one share holder transferred certain legitimately acquired shares to another within familial circles, or what exactly is the underlying crime you are alluding to here?

halcatraz, I have never said that anything illegal went on here. So where do you get this idea of a “crime”?
Everyone has to decide what the facts mean to them. For me, I found the notion of a guru’s sons becoming hugely rich through the actions of a disciple (who also is a relative) rather disturbing, in light of the RSSB philosophy and how the organization operated in the “old days” prior to Gurinder Singh.
Also interesting is the fact that high-ranking members of RSSB are also intimately involved with Religare, which reportedly is essentially being managed by the guru.
I don’t know what you mean by “elaborate.” The facts are there in the Religare prospectus, and the other sources cited in the posts. Facts are facts. The meaning we give to them is up to us.

Halcatraz and Deepak,
Nobody is talking about legality here. Use your grey matter a little bit which you have put on a side while surrendering to the cult.
RSSB gurus or their clan are not supposed to take any money from any disciple for their personal use. It’s obvious that Gurinder Singh is using his Godly status to get this huge amount of money. If Ranbaxy owner wants to donate money, it should go to RSSB foundation.
If I want to work on Religare, will they give me the same share:) What is the basis of giving so much money to guru’s sons? Just because they are sons of the so called GOD? What does Gurinder singh and his sons have done to get this much share? How come they are partners in this business?
Cultic mind of satsangis will never question this.

I would like to disclose a very important thing to all disciples of Radhaswami sect that when they can not recite any Baani of their own on death of somebody, to pray for the peace upon the dead soul. Their Gurus or administrators also need to bow before Guru Granth Sahab ji to perform last rites. How could they provide you anything during your life time.Their marriage ceremony is also completed as ANAND KARZ infront of Sri GURU GRANTH SAHEB JI. I mean, Are they in position to fulfil your wishes of money, son, a home or any other materialistic need which some one prays to almighty Waheguru?
These fake gurus only have tact make fool of poor people by using their money , physical power as so called sewa .money is only their MOTO.
All the five words (jot niranjan,oonkar ,rarnkar, sohang, satnam)guru give to people are taken from Guru Granth Sahib ji. What the originallity they have? nothing….. nothing….
The Indian Express, Chandigarh, Jun. 2, 2006
(Former S.G.P.C. member Amrinder Singh today alleged that the Radha Soami Satsang Beas had usurped land in Beas which was originally donated to Sri Guru Granth Sahib by name.
Releasing documents to attest his claim, Amrinder Singh stated that land worth nine kanals [1.125 acres; 1 kanal = 0.125 acres] was gifted by a devout Sikh to Guru Granth Sahib in 1932. ‘Under the revenue records, it continued to be in the name of Guru Granth Sahib till 1985, when the name of Guru Granth Sahib was removed from the column of ownership in the Punjab government revenue records,’ he alleged.
The process began in 1983, when the Punjab government suddenly issued a notification for consolidation of land. By 1985, the Radha Soami dera had effectively usurped the land.
Producing copies of the gift of land, Amrinder stated that the gift was made by Santa Singh of village Wraich, district Amritsar. It was during the tenure of A.C. Sen as commissioner of Jalandhar Division, Patwari Teja Singh and Qanungo Hans Raj that the notification for consolidation was made.
Amrinder Singh demanded an inquiry by the Punjab government into the transfer of land and sought the immediate intervention of the Punjab D.G.P. into the affair. ‘Government should appoint an inquiry into the embezzlement of the property of Guru Granth Sahib, which enjoys the status of Guru,’ he said. He further sought a rectification of record and restoration of land to Guru Granth Sahib. The place, Jaimal Singh has historical importance for the Sikh community, since the last rites of Mata Ganga, the mother of the fifth Sikh Guru were performed at this place. Guru Hargobind, the sixth Sikh guru also participated in the ceremony, Amrinder added.
)

hunar, interesting story. Only in India, probably, could a holy book be a landowner. How does that work? Do Sikhs really believe that the Guru Granth Sahib is a person?

[I’ve shortened this comment because it was excessively long and not focused on the subject of the post. — Blogger Brian]
dear brian
for doctors your body is only blood ,bones flesh, tendons, arteries, veins .if more deep study you are collection of
various metabolic functions ,enzymes , hormones but for your relatives like son/daughter/wife /mother you are father
brian/husband brian/son brian.
For others GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI is a holy book . but for sikhs it is “SHABAD GURU ” as gurbani says.:—
Gurbani is the embodiment of the Guru and the Guru is the embodiment of Gurbani. In the whole of Gurbani is
contained the Nectar.If the attendant acts up to what Gurbani enjoys, the Guru in person(verily) saves him.
PLZ READ THIS JUDGEMENT:—-
In a judgment entitled Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee Amritsar v. Som Nath Dass and others delivered on March 29, 2000, the Supreme Court of India has held that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a juristic person. Its impact was not properly understood and correctly appreciated in the beginning. It gave rise to some misconceptions, apprehensions and queries. The Sikhs felt alarmed and disturbed. Misinformation might have led to some sort of agitation. Various questions that cropped up about the judgment were as under-
Does it hold Guru Granth Sahib simply a person? Is it appropriate to call Guru Granth Sahib a person or a juristic person instead of Guru?
Whether the judgment denigrates Sikhism and Guru Granth Sahib?
Does it uphold the independent and separate identity of Sikhism?
Has Guru Granth Sahib been equated with Hindu idol or deity?
Has it made the Holy Sikh scripture subject to the jurisdiction of worldly courts and facilitated to drag its name irreverently before the courts just like ordinary property holders?
Can the suits and claims be filed against every copy of Guru Granth Sahib?
Will it now become necessary to take Sri Guru Granth Sahib to courts?
Can the individuals destroying the copies of Guru Granth Sahib be convicted for murder?
Whether the non-Sikh judges properly comprehended the Sikh principles and traditions?
Such queries have prompted to go through the judgment minutely and to dilate upon it. The judgment answers most of the queries but before discussing the judgment in detail, some of the questions may be answered.
First we should know whether the ten Sikh Gurus were persons? If they were so, it will not be inappropriate to call Guru Granth Sahib a person or juristic person. The Sikh Gurus lived on this earth in flesh and blood like other human beings. They were human beings but they were ideal, prefect, holy and sinless human beings.

Tara’s post previous reads:
“This entire issue is not about what is ” legal ” but all about what is ” moral ” in accordance with the dictates of Sant Mat. ”
—————-
What is moral when it comes to a Sant/Guru? Is not the Sant given carte blanche by faithful devotees?
to quote Karl Potter in his book Presuppositions of Indian Philosophy:
“There can really be no doubt about the supremacy of control and freedom over morality among Indian ideals in the mind of anyone who has read the tales of ancient India or who has studied yoga or who has read the attributes of a good teacher (guru) in INDIAN sources.*….. the yogi is one who seeks to pass beyond good and evil, that the injunctions of the Vedas which prescribe morally correct actions do not apply to the true yogi, and that it is accepted in many circles that the path of the saint may well involve him in external behaviors which in others would be highly inappropriate.”
*(i.e., not Julian Johnson)

hunar007 writes:
“GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI is a holy book.”
— who says? that is only your belief.
“it is SHABAD GURU”
— again, this is merely your own personal belief.
“as gurbani says.:”
— who gives a damn what the gurbani says. as if that is some sort of supreme authority? you are so full of dogma that you are out of touch with reality.
“Gurbani is the embodiment of the Guru and the Guru is the embodiment of Gurbani.”
— thats just another stupid religious belief.
“In the whole of Gurbani is
contained the Nectar.”
— more rubbish.
“the Guru in person(verily) saves him.”
— childish nonsense imo.
“it will not be inappropriate to call Guru Granth Sahib a person or juristic person.”
— this is delusional nonsense.
“The Sikh Gurus lived on this earth in flesh and blood like other human beings. They were human beings but they were ideal, prefect, holy and sinless human beings.”
— if you believe that, then you lack rationality and reason, and you are deluded.
hunar007, why are you coming here to a site that is said to be “CHURCHLESS” (ie: non-religious), yet you are posting lots of Sikh religious dogma and other foolishness? Why?
You should go to a sikh website if you wish to preach your sikh religious dogma. I think Brian is only tolerating and permitting a portion of it to serve as an example of how religious nuts like you think.
I don’t give a damn about your sikh religious beliefs, and why should I?
You think that everyone should bow to all of your Sikh religious dogma and your worship of the Guru Granth nonsense?
What the hell is the matter with you?
Wake up to reality hunar007.

Jon Weiss – The underlying expression of your comments are racist.

No Arjun, YOU are wrong. YOU are the one who is racist apprently… because YOU are the one who sees some issue of race here.
Mr Weiss never actually mentioned or implied anything about race. He merely quoted out of Karl Potter’s book regarding morality and the tales of ancient India.
Jon Weiss merely stated & asked: “What is moral when it comes to a Sant/Guru? Is not the Sant given carte blanche by faithful devotees?” [yes, that seems to be true]
So YOU are the one who is concerned with race here, not Jon Weiss. There was nothing racist at all in his comment.
[and btw… I happen to agree with what Mr Weiss has pointed out.]

hi all
i have been reading your comments since a few days….well let me make a few things clear,which i have studied from my side
1) the shares of religare enterprise which were bought by gurpreet and gurkirit at face value were brought much before the initial ipo, so no question of insider trading comes into picture, and also the shares were not alloted just coz they were guru’s son but coz of blood relation between malvinder,shivinder and gurpreet and gurkirit…..it is very common in world and especially in india to give shares at face value to close relations or to the promoters…..and it was no where hidden from the world as the red herring prospectus clearly states it…and as you are aware that gurpreet is presently working also for religare in U.K……does being guru’s son deny him the right to do investments and earn like all of do…..and till now none of radha soami initiates have given any stake to any guru or guru’s relatives……this religare affair is a family affair and not a guru and initiate affair…….,

tao – I’m quoting Jon Weiss from a previous comment : ” Having said this, the invalidation may be more offensive to a western disciple than an Asian disciple. Western outlook is rooted in different ideals. India does not seem to have the same loyalty to artless honesty, but rather 3 thousand years of slippery ethics that leaves Machiavelli lookin’ boorish and unperceptive. In fact India has to be one of the most $$$ corrupt ( by Western standards ) countries on the planet… they even managed to pull a fast one on the World Bank ! ”
Well, he does tend to put all Indians in one box !

Cannot blame cults for trapping people if the people are willing to be trapped.

tk, “insider trading” refers both to legal and illegal insider transactions. This definitely was an instance of insider trading, because it was a share transaction by a company insider.
You don’t know why the shares were transferred to the guru’s sons. You’re speculating that it was a family gift. I’ve suggested that the issue of “dual relationships” also comes into play, since the guru is both a relative of the Singh brothers and also their spiritual master. Thus business/financial dealings get mixed up with religious/mystical dealings.
Further, you (like other commenters) ignore the other close connections between RSSB and Religare — such as how many RSSB higher-ups are working for the company and serve on the board of directors.
So your statement that the RSSB-Religare connection is a family affair and not a guru and initiate affair isn’t true.

An interesting article from Forbes on business problems in India, the following was abstracted from that Forbes article:
“The really serious problem here,” Singh stated, “is that the prevalence of corruption in the Indian economy may well have distorted cultural norms within the society. Yet I am also aware of countervailing forces, so I do not want to overstate the case.
“But to the extent that change in cultural norms will be needed to root out corruption, it will take a persistent, long, drawn-out effort. While economic change is easier to achieve, cultural change is much slower and more difficult. This is compounded by the rearguard actions of those who are beneficiaries of the status quo.”
Full article:
http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/15/wipro-tata-corruption-ent-law-cx_kw_0814whartonindia.html
Jon

Arjun, yes Mr. Weiss did say: “India has to be one of the most $$$ corrupt ( by Western standards ) countries on the planet”… but that is simply his own considered opinion about corruption in India. It is not a “racist” statement, as you wrongly claim. Your use of the term “racist” is an incorrect choice of words.
Arjun also later said: “Cannot blame cults for trapping people if the people are willing to be trapped.” — I disagree. Cults do trap people who are naive and unsuspecting. Cults like RS promote all sorts of bogus beliefs and dogma and illusions which are desiged to be appealing to spiritual seekers. The seekers are not at all aware of this, so cults like RS are tricking and deceiving (and consequently trapping) the seekers without them knowing. So the fault and the blame lays squarely upon the RS cult and their appealing but deceptive mystical dogma, and not with the trusting seekers. The blame is with the cult, not those who are fooled by the cult and its leader or spiritual master.

tao – how can Jon assume that ” the invalidation may be more offensive to a western disciple than an Asian disciple ” or ” Western outlook is rooted in different ideals. India does not seem to have the same loyalty to artless honesty, but rather 3 thousand years of slippery ethics ” ( ?? ) It may be his opinion, but is severely generalized.
The RS cult traps people who surrender to their brainwashing. I did, my cousins did and in hindsight we feel like we were tricked into something that we were not weary of in the beginning. I’m in agreement with your views, I’ve been in that situation and disconnecting from RS was very difficult in the end.

you call him a Satsangare…

I would like to propose a different viewpoint. Here are the facts:
a) Malvinder Singh of Ranbaxy invested a huge amount in Religare, thereby acquiring a large number of shares.
b) He then transferred a significant fraction of these shares to Gurpreet Singh Dhillon and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon, and some to Gurinder Singh Dhillon.
Now, considering that Gurpreet and Gurkirat are Malvinder’s cousins, and Gurinder is his uncle, what’s wrong with this? Maybe he wanted to give a gift to his relatives. This isn’t some stranger giving a gift to the Guru’s family. The key point is that Malvinder is not just a Radha Soami follower, he is a family member.
To me, this transaction sounds independent of the Radha Soami organization. It’s a family matter.

@ Tom – – – Religare was founded by the Ranbaxy brothers ( Malvinder Singh & Shivinder Singh ) so it is not like they went shopping and invested a huge sum in some random company, then came home and distributed a part of their acquisition to the RS guru’s sons. Religare’s stake holders we pre-decided and the shares we allotted at a paltry Rupees 10. Overnight, the guru’s two sons got part ownership of a big financial services company. Very lucky right ?
Just to get familial relationships clear, Gurinder is Charan’s nephew, so Malvinder’s mother ( Nimmie, Charan’s daughter ) is Gurinder’s cousin. Nimmie’s kids ( Malvinder & Shivinder ) and Gurinder’s kids ( Gurpreet & Gurkirat ) by relation, are distant cousins then. So, Malvinder and Shivinder decided to give a big chunk of their pie to their cousin-uncle and his sons, while their maternal uncles ( Nimmie’s two blood brothers ) have no shareholding ?
Has there been a distribution of wealth across the family ? Not according to the SEBI prospectus. So only the guru and his sons have benefitted ? Why ? What is the bargain ? Is there a barter ? Is it sheer generosity on the part of Malvinder ?
The point to note is that Ranbaxy was in big debts at the time when Religare was founded. These articles will give you the numbers :
http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=325897
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Ranbaxy_Laboratories
The story is that Religare ‘ grew ‘ from a one room office into a two billion dollar company. They bought multiple businesses, though the company’s turnover has been less than three million dollars this quarter. How did they sustain the capital inflow to buy businesses at a time when the parent company ( Ranbaxy ) was struggling to cope with debts ? Isn’t that strange ?
Where did all that money come from ?
The auditors of Religare have the answers.

Hi Arjun:
That is why I chose the word “may”.
Yes, of course there will be East Indian disciple’s who will find the whole thing offensive. There will be Western disciple’s who will shrug and rationalize it all away.
But here has been my experience in India with Indians…they are not quick to take offense. In USA somebody cuts you off in traffic and you might consider ducking. The other driver might take out his gun and shoot you. Can you imagine if this attitude prevailed on India’s roads!!!!! All drivers would be dead within a week. This same patience, I feel, is worth acknowledging in respect to how Indian disciple’s will respond to Religare, etc.
Also the highest ideal of India, in a word, is (was?) probably LIBERATION (of the soul). Where as the Platonic ideal of Western man is not the liberation of man, but a call to the objective, good and just life. Of course this is mitigated by Judeo/Christian myths. The Christ Myth: Christ died for the Good of All, not for his personal liberation. So these ideals whether we are aware of them or not, certainly are going to effect the way people evaluate the guru and everything else.
India in the past 20 years has become much more Westernized. Yet, India’s religious traditions, myths, and philosophical tradition(s) are, I think, more subtle, colorful, sprawling, and baroque than anywhere else on the planet. Culture holds us all, and insofar as that is so, the reaction of people who were born to India, (in particular those deeply tied to the guru tradition) familiar with the tales of the Ramayana and Mahabharata are likely to have a broader and more subtle view on what is appropriate for a guru, than a Lutheran raised in Oklahoma whose only access to India’s vast philosophy, myths, and traditions may have been “Path of the Masters” by Julian Johnson
It is reasonable to assume the people of India have a deeper feel for their own traditions. Like the unique Indian head shake that seems to mean “yes, no, maybe”. How the Beas’ guru is viewed is in that head-shake somewhere. This seems to me largely how India views the comings and goings of her yogis, gurus, Saints, etc. Personally, I think India, her spirit, is very beautiful. What a pity if India gives way to McDonalds and Walmart.

Arjun:
In response to “Where did all the money come from”:
If you look at the history of Ranbaxy
http://www.icmrindia.org/casestudies/catalogue/Human%20Resource%20and%20Organization%20Behavior/HROB057.htm
you will see that it started as a small company founded by Malvinder’s grand-father, and carried forward by his father. It grew to become a big multi-national company when Brar (non family member) was CEO. The family members owned a significant fraction of Ranbaxy, which amounted to a lot of money.
Malvinder (and his brother perhaps) exited Ranbaxy, and sold their huge stake in Ranbaxy. That’s where the money came from.
They invested this money in a family business, Religare, and appointed family members and close friends as executives in this business. After all, Ranbaxy was also started as a small family business by their grand father. They probably wanted to do this all over, this time on a larger scale, as they had much more capital.
Regarding “why only these relatives benefited from it, and not their other cousins”. The fact that Gurpreet works for Religare might explain it, while other relatives might not be qualified/capable to hold such positions at the company. Maybe Gurkirat is also being groomed for a key position at the company once he is done with his education.
If I were starting a company, and some of my relatives were well qualified and trustworthy, I would happily hire them. There’s a significant and unquantifiable advantage of “good will”, in comparison with hiring an external candidate.
You ask “Is there a barter?”
Do you have a theory? Please share.
Also, Ranbaxy is not the parent company. I think the two are disconnected (my opinion, don’t know for sure). Malvinder sold his stake in Ranbaxy, and used the money to invest in, and grow, Religare. That’s where the money to buy new businesses came from.

@ Tom – – – Thank you for sharing the Ranbaxy history, I work in the financial sector in India. I’ve been studying the rise of Religare and other financial companies for a little longer than it took you to conclude that Religare was being financed by Malvinder Singh after he sold his stake in Ranbaxy.
I wrote – ” The point to note is that Ranbaxy was in big debts at the time when Religare was founded. ” Spend some time on the Internet, get your facts in line. On the 10th of June 2008, Japan’s Daiichi Sankyo Co. bought Ranbaxy. Religare was founded in 2006. Study the growth trajectory of Religare during that period, at the time when Ranbaxy was in debt.
Do you want to know where I think that money was coming from ?
IMO, part of Religare was being funded by the RSSB Trust.
Like it or not, it is boardroom gossip that there are cross-holdings between Religare and the RSSB Trust. Do you think that this would bother an ordinary person ? Not the least ! Because it is a legal deal for any trust to invest in a public company. This happens to be a ‘ family ‘ company and Gurinder has full access to the RSSB Trust. But Gurinder also happens to be the leader of the RS spiritual sect, a GIHF for his millions of followers.
For the satsang-going, seva-doing, darshan-seeking initiates who understand the RS tenets in the right spirit, this integration may be a bit hard to digest.
For the weak-minded cultists, it may be easy to justify.
And, do tell me, how does a two billion dollar company manage a turnover of three million dollars in a quarter ? Ranbaxy is funding Religare today, but who funded it when Ranbaxy itself was in debt ? The answer to that may have a link to Religare’s shareholding pattern.

Jon, thanks for expounding.
Apologies.

@ Tom — Clarification : At the bottom of my comment I wrote ‘ Ranbaxy is funding Religare today… ‘ What I meant was ‘ The money from the Ranbaxy sale / Malvinder Singh is funding Religare today ‘ so read it that way.

only for poor tAo
The infidels are thrashed and are ruined in wranglings.
There is darkness within the mind and body of an apostate. He has neither shelter nor palce of rest.
The filth of the apostate is not washed off, until he enshrines not affection for Guru’s Word.

some interesting thoughts from jon, espectially on popper, its an amusing generalisation which may be be right or maybe not – but material wealth and its effects on the scruples of man – would seem to be a curse that is largely independent of culture – tho perhaps there are more moralistic conditioning in those brought up in the judaeo-christian or western world.
\interesting comments nevertheless.

who knows, the one thing is for certain, greed is greed, and you can paint it any which way you want, but its still the same ugly thing, whether committed by the sheyster or the guru.

HUNAR007 says:
“The infidels are thrashed and are ruined”
— you appear much the same as a moslem extremist. take your stinking mentality and your rhetoric of religious fundamentalism and terrorism somehwere else far away from here. your kind is not welcome here, imo.
“There is darkness within the mind and body of an apostate. The filth of the apostate”
— you’re a religious nut and a moron, obviously.
“he enshrines not affection for Guru’s Word.”
— you’re no different than all the other stupid threatening fear mongering religious fundamentalists and extremists. how does it feel to be such a miserable jerk?

By uttering harsh words man come to grief. Hearken, O’ my foolish ignorant soul !

GURBANI IS UNIVERSAL TRUTH .IT IS FOR ME YOU AND EVERY ONE ON THIS EARTH.
WE ARE WASTING SO MUCH ENERGY ON THESE fake controversies.As GURBANI SAYS:–
After reading and perusing the scholars and astrologers resort to controversies and quibbles.
::There is but One Lord. Spiritualism and materialism are the two ways be which the strifes multiply.
::Man reads the Vedas but but night and day picks up quarrrels.

GURBANI IS RUBBISH.
It is NOT for me, nor is it for “every one”. It is only for religious crazies like HUNAR007.

dear tara
CAN YOU TELL WHAT IS THE REALITY?
HOW ONE CAN OPEN HIS MIND A BIT ?
WITH REGARDS

Now I’m just an on/off troll on this blog but…
The views expressed here tend to be pretty polarised. That is, either:
(a) the guru is GIHF and can do no wrong, or
(b) the guru is a money grubbing charlatan profiteering off the gullible masses.
Is there no grey area? Does it have to be one or the other?

Bobo, good point. But I’m not saying the RSSB guru is one or the other. You’ve selected a few points on the “guru discussion scale” and concluded that these are the only two options. The guru, like all of us, is a complex human being who can’t be encapsulated with a few sound bites. If you read all of the mentions of the guru on this blog — there are lots of them — you’ll find that these cover a lot of ground, not just the extremes you cite.

tAO
GURBANI THOUGHTS TO YOU IS TO CAST PEARLS BEFORE SWINE !

hi
does anyone have any proof that rssb trust has invested in religare or ranbaxy….if they had invested shouldnt it have been reflected somewhere in the balance sheet and other documents, it would be great if someone comes up with a proof

I use to enjoy reading the articles , now it is just becomming a typical tabloid media site.

Gustav, “typical tabloid media site”? Huh?
SInce I write the articles/posts, I’m curious about this reference. Can you point me to other web sites or blogs that are like this one, and can be called “tabloid”? I enjoy looking at the National Enquirer when I’m in the grocery store checkout line, but I’ve never considered that this blog is anything like a typical tabloid. Definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid
What facts or opinions in my posts would you consider tabloid’ish? It would be more useful if you’d point to some specifics. I assume you don’t like the Religare posts, since you commented on this post. What is inaccurate in them?

TK asked the following:
hi
does anyone have any proof that rssb trust has invested in religare or ranbaxy….if they had invested shouldnt it have been reflected somewhere in the balance sheet and other documents, it would be great if someone comes up with a proof
TK:
Was it stated somewhere that the trust money was used? I do not think trust money was used. The conflict is elsewhere.
With big $$$ —generally there is (natural enough) suspicion. Conflict of interest, if nothing else. Brian’s wife pointed this out — the problem with dual relationships. A splendid example would be Woody Allen marrying Soon Yi Previn. Now, what is problematical about that? It was not Allen’s genetic daughter, right? Likewise, the guru’s dual relationship (Religare) is disturbing. Brian’s wife was spot on.
But sometimes it is harder to SEE with money than with sex. So here is an example: What if the curtain were drawn back and the sangat saw Guru X surrounded by a bevy of scantily dressed, beautiful young women, yet not doing anything wrong. People would ask, what is he doing there in that situation? He is married, he is our guru! Further, if the Guru were to be discovered as a VIP heading up a profitable modeling agency?
When one begins to doubt the pure intentions of the Guru, the disciple is remanded to the tale of the Guru who told disciples to construct and tear down a platform many times. This worn-out tale can either be considered (a) part of the cult’s indoctrination portfolio or (b) a story expressing the Asian tradition of unconditional faith in Guru—regardless of outward behavior. (Very risky in any age, IMO, but particularly dangerous in this one.)
Jon

hi
yes arjun mentioned that rssb trust money is being used in religare and there are cross holdings between religare and rssb trust and also that ranbaxy was funded by rssb trust when it was in huge debts….arjun can you get your facts right with some evidence supporting it

Hi,
Nice to read all the mail about Baba Gurinder Singh. I shall love to read more about if any more shares he has of Religare or any other company gifted by his sons.
To me it looks like a gift from son to his father. A paltry sum has been gifted by a frugal son.
with love to all,

Guru is not related to Religare
Nephews and sons hold shares there
No such ‘dual’ relationship exists apart from in these American stocks and shares afficionado’s minds.
Some these fiasco fables are created by worn out intellects looking for sensationalism, thats it, nothing more than a feeble fable stick to beat their drum of self dissatisfied lack in their own disillusioned psyche.

@ tk – I’m an investment banker based in India and I may have closer aides in the financial sector than you do. I have known of these RSSB-Religare dealings long before a dissatisfied bunch of Religare employees started finding out about the mysterious figure who was the backstage-operator of this company and started sending emails to RS followers. What I have deduced over the last four years is what I have stated on this blog.
I have my facts right and my opinions are based on them. Go find someone in a mid to high level position at Religare to give you more information – they have one of the highest employee turnover rate in the Indian corporate sector. Someone will be glad to give you their story.

Hello to all.
Even though I am a Radha Soami believer, I wonder why Babaji and his family are involved in large monetary dealings of this kind. Something is not right here. I find it difficult to accept this. I see that Mr. Jaickismin Balani is also on the board of directors. He was Babaji’s ex-boss, the gentleman who Babaji worked for in Spain. This whole thing is sad and unbelievable.

Hi Brian,
Read your post just now.
I was wondering about haq-halal ki kamayee (honestly earned bread) — which those in the Satsangs make a big fuzz about.
As a journalist, I used to work only about three hours a day. Satsangis used to call me scumbag.
Now I wonder what would they call their Guru who rakes in millions without working.

@brian – its been a few years since I last visited your blog to see if you had anything new and fresh to say, but sadly its the same old intellectual bucket banging and rssb mud slinging.
Its obvious to anyone with a real hunger for developing a quiet mind, that the energy you and your same old tucson tao et al crew – that you are not investing the minimum time per day in rooting yourself within yourself.
Its always been easier to bluster and bloggerise than it is to still the mind and PRACTICE the teachings.
Also, you make no reference to personal enquiry within rssb about this matter, or heaven forbid – approach Master and enquire his opinion or comment on the matter.
When you were de listed as a speaker for rssb – as your talks were academic and likely as tiresome as your self serving posts -your nose was put out of joint. This blow to your ego fueled your efforts to create your own following of yes-men and women. All happier gabbing about spirituality rather than quietly trying to live it.
I’m sure your ego is still as big as big as you on several occasions have admitted it to be, and your tiresome themes will live on for the next couple of years. Good luck talking about the car you should be driving.

Brad,
I think mud slinging is useful, ‘cos sometimes the mud sticks.

Brad, you’re wrong about the reason I was “fired” from being a satsang speaker. As I wrote in this post, the reason given by the RSSB representative was that this blog was making people uncomfortable. That’s a fact. See:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2005/10/ive_been_fired
Excerpt:
—————–
Well, my Meister Eckhart fantasy has been fulfilled. I’ve been fired from giving talks (known as “satsangs”) at meetings of my spiritual group because my Church of the Churchless writings have been too heretical.
Yesterday our local secretary informed me that he had been told by a regional representative, Vince Savarese, that my blogging about Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) had caused a lot of people to be uncomfortable. In New York. In India. All around the RSSB world.
Naturally I blurted out “Wow, that’s great! People are reading my blog!” It didn’t bother me to hear that I’ve been making some people uncomfortable. I regularly hear from others that they appreciate my posts, so it all evens out. Yin and yang. Like and dislike. Attraction and repulsion. That’s the way of the world.
Regardless, the RSSB powers that be don’t want me to be a speaker anymore. I said, “That’s fine. Now the folks at the Radhasoami studies discussion group who have been taking bets that I wouldn’t last as a speaker beyond mid-2006 will feel vindicated.”
Interestingly, about ten days ago I’d been asked to write another article by an editor of the official RSSB magazine, “Spiritual Link.” She emailed me, “I so enjoy reading what you write on your blog. It is that kind of energy that I’d like to see in an article.” So what one hand chastiseth, another hand praiseth.

@ TARA,
RSSB is not the hot gurudom that it once was.
Today, the most popular Gurus in India are somebody like sri Sri Ravishankar, Baba Ramdev et al (who are practical rather than give the old-guilt inducing morality).
I see institutions like RSSB as collapsing institutions. They are the older versions of Indian spirituality.
Let it die a natural death.

Sri Ravishankar and these others are same as going to a talk by Deepak Chopra, similar self help, bettering the world, psychoanalytical improve your external conditions mumbo jumbo that one gets, similar to the mumbo jumbo on here.

So Brian you have written to Baba Gurinder Singh directly and inquired from him where you stand in relation to your personal spiritual progress, since you are no longer required as a recognised speaker from any RS platform?
and you have also inquired directly whether RSSB funds have been usurped into any of these private family share transactions, or any of these financial associations with Religare or Ranbaxy?

Brad,
you are so utterly self-assured and presumptious about others that look like a fool.
Here are some of your absurd statements:
“since I last visited your blog to see if you had anything new and fresh to say, but sadly its the same old intellectual bucket banging and rssb mud slinging.”
— you sound very much like another narrow-minded anti-intellect, anti-reason, anti-science RS fundamentalist (like Ashy). and in case you don’t get it, there is some troublesome financial scandal and hypocrisy brewing around the upper eschalon of the RSSB and the guru’s family. does it bother you that some of us find that corrupt? does it bother you that not everyone is a brainwashed little cult twerp like you?
“Its obvious to anyone with a real hunger for developing a quiet mind, […] that you are not investing the minimum time per day in rooting yourself within yourself.”
— how do you know how much time i or others spend “investing” in meditation?? you simply don’t know. you don’t even have one iota of knowledge or understanding about my spiritual station or my spiritual sadhana (practice).
“easier to bluster and bloggerise than it is to still the mind and PRACTICE the teachings.”
— how do you know whether others are not practicising, or what their state of mind is?? it is YOU who is all “bluster” and presumption.
“you [Brian] make no reference to personal enquiry within rssb about this matter, or heaven forbid – approach Master and enquire his opinion or comment on the matter.”
— who gives a shit what the opinion of your “Master” is. i don’t. the facts are the facts. you got some problem handling the facts?? it appears likely that you’re in denial.
“[Brian] your talks were academic and likely as tiresome as your self serving posts”
— you have something against being academic or academia?? or are you just a dumb-ass high-school dropout?? you seem that way.
“This blow to your ego fueled your efforts to create your own following of yes-men and women.”
— NO man, the people who comment on this blog are not “yes-men” at all. i think they would find you rather insulting. and fyi, i don’t suck up to anyone, not even to your phoney RS master and his feudalistic slave colony. and its RS goons like YOU who are the real guru-cult “yes-men”.
“All happier gabbing about spirituality rather than quietly trying to live it.”
— I have ‘lived’ more years of profound spirituality and mysticism than the years you have been alive, i dare say. you don’t know anything about me.
“[Brian] I’m sure your ego is still as big […] and your tiresome themes will live on for the next couple of years.”
— in order to make that statement, by necessity YOUR ego has to be even BIGGER, and more stupid, and more “tiresome”.
LOL!… in fact, you’re a f-ing joke, fat-headed Brad-y boy.
Better luck trolling at the next blog.

hukai says:
“you have written to Baba Gurinder Singh directly and inquired from him where you stand in relation to your personal spiritual progress”
— what does that cultic pseudo-guru know about anything, much less somone’s “personal spiritual progress”??
what a friggin hokey jokey you are, Hukai.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:210JyK5Ite4J:www.bseindia.com/xml-data/corpfiling/AttachHis/Religare_Enterprises_Ltd_020310_SAST13.pdf+Religare+Enterprises+Ltd+(CRD4).pdf&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgG-KTE2c6-ZQZsRn5p29TNNKqdUPAq8Jg506PTzH_YlmdMCfBj7qVKiOJFmjMNfo3rXk2TRdf3-A4e6Xa2oU3Vs1DXMaevIGFhCwu0mUrdCNjnR-ZcokfHhg9j0RPiFM1GTNN7&sig=AHIEtbQQKvMXJ_IjZZ8F78oqk5FCDPqWqA

dear Mr.ABC(I don’t know ur Name”,
Greetings!
I have read ur blog dated 11Apr 2010.
First of all Believe in Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature and In God!!
See first of all check your experiences of Life, especially the bad ones like your mother father divorced and others too where people ditch each other for there benefits or may be some kind of other problems.
See you have experienced not a life which you desire!
your desire was: a kind of life where no one break any trust of any one, Everybody loves everybody kind of
Why i m writing all this because your bad experiences has CHANGED YOUR VISION, the way of percepting the Things especially People!
Now come to the point:
First of All The Current Guru :Babaji Gurinder Singh ji, has NEVER SAID that he is God!
his teaching(I m not sure wheather you have listen his lectures or not) where he says that the God is Word/Shabad etc. Guru is Medium who helps you to reach to your final destination :to GOD. So don’t Considered that God is making money and his family too.
And if the Issue is that they are making Money and not giving it to the charity then you are right here.
Do you know even that how much they are helping people here in India?
there money goes in construction, running orgainisation, helping people, still the Hospital is going on , etc
I want to know what’s your Point is:
He is making money?
or
He is not God??
If any of the scandel of money is going on (definately some people are involved)
But the Guru’s Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life
Try to listen his teachings and trust on life, CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION!!
and if have have PERSONALLY experienced the issue of money then pls write to me in detail. not that buddy is saying this or that guy has experinced this. Your experince With the GURU??
We will ckeck it out.
Regards,
Ritu
ritu.perception@gmail.com

Ritu,
You stated,
“First of all Believe in Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature and In God!!”
and
“But the Guru’s Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life”
–Are you saying the purpose is to spread the “belief” in spirituality, truth, honesty and life? I wonder if it is possible to spread a belief in dishonesty?
–Did someone train you to think this way?
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

Ritu,
it seems that you do not understand and realize that the issue here is about “Honesty, Believe in Truth, in Life, In Nature”.
why should anyone have to or be told to “Believe In God”, as you say???
believing or not believing in God is an individual matter. belief in god is NOT required in order for one to seek the truth, to live and appreciate life, and to be in harmony with nature. you are trying to impose your belief in god, onto others. thats not a good way to start off here.
“check your experiences of Life, especially the bad ones like your mother father divorced and others too where people ditch each other for there benefits or may be some kind of other problems.”
— i didn’t have any of those problems or issues, and, that sort of thing has nothing to do with the RSSB guru’s family financial scandal.
“your desire was: a kind of life where no one break any trust of any one, Everybody loves everybody”
— that was not my desire, or my illusions, so you are wrong about that.
“your bad experiences has CHANGED YOUR VISION, the way of percepting the Things especially People!”
— what “bad experiences”?? i think you are assuming things that are not yours to assume. people’s perception of this is chaging all the time due to all sorts of factors. that has nothing to do with the facts about the RSSB guru and Religare.
“First of All The Current Guru: Babaji Gurinder Singh ji, has NEVER SAID that he is God!”
— it is implied by the fact that he is worshipped as the shabd incarnate. it is also impled by the fact that he goes along with that widespread belief, and he does not do anything to change it. he is guiotly by omission.
“his teaching(I m not sure wheather you have listen his lectures or not) where he says that the God is Word/Shabad etc.”
— yes, thats is my point. it is taught that “the shabd is God”, and that “the master is the incarnation or the embodiment of the shabd”. so that makes the master equal to God. this is obvious, but believers such as yourself do not want to admit this. and the RS master does noting to dispell this belief.
“Guru is Medium who helps you to reach to your final destination: to GOD.”
— that is a basically a religious belief.
“So don’t Considered that God is making money and his family too.”
— why not?? the master (who is considered to be God incarnate) and his family ARE indeed making money. so you are wrong.
“And if the Issue is that they are making Money and not giving it to the charity then you are right here.”
— they are making money. i don’t know what they give to charity, that remains to be seen. i doubt that they give very much. they feel entitled to live as wealty individuals. and RSSB is a feudalistic structured cult and society. and the master is the king, and his family and his inner circle are the overlords.
“Do you know even that how much they are helping people here in India? there money goes in construction, running orgainisation, helping people, still the Hospital is going on , etc”
— they, the master and his family are contributing little or nothing. all that stuff is paid for by the donations coming from satsangis, from the sangat.
“I want to know what’s your Point is: He is making money? or He is not God??”
— both. HE (and his family) ARE making money, a great deal of money (relitively speaking) -and- HE is regarded as the same as the shabd incarnate or “God”. so its both.
“the Guru’s Purpose is to spread the spirituality, the Truth, the honesty, the life”
— that may be his purpose, but he isn’t necessarily doing that. just because he is the leader of RS, that doesn’t automatically make him virtuous and wise.
“Try to listen his teachings and trust on life, CHANGE YOUR PERCEPTION!!”
— i don’t care about his so-called teachings. i happen think he is a fraud. and i have good reason to think that, and so i don’t need to “change my perception”.
“and if [you] have PERSONALLY experienced the issue of money then pls write to me in detail.”
— the financial data and information is already publicly available. you are just ignorant of the facts, or in denial.
“Your experince With the GURU??”
— Brian has seen him, and so have i, and so have others. so what?
“We will ckeck it out.”
— who are YOU to “check” anything out?? as if you are some sort of authority?? give me a break. and all the pertinent information is already out there. you are just not open to looking at the real facts. you want to remain stuck in your illusion and fantasy.

Tara, I think you may make even more sense after three glasses of wine than you do otherwise. Which implies…you should drink more! Then do more interfacing on the Internets.

well i’m mighty proud of you Tara. you done real good. so good, that you’ve earned your own place in the Churchless Hall of Fame (or is it infamy?), right here alongside tucson and meself, tAo.
so let us raise all our glasses to toast Tara, a gal much like the character that Uma Thurman played in Kill Bill Vol. 2, by the name of ‘Black Mamba’… cause she kicks ass. and give that lady another drink.
i’m rather glad to see that there is now someone here to carry on after tucson and i finally disappear like the naguals and sages Don Juan and Lao Tzu… into the vast mysterous mountains of the great unknown.

Three cheers to Tara…one of the refreshing voices amidst a cacophony of mumbo jumbo.

tAo
This is churchless blog. You discuss about your own ideology and own guru or whatsoever and don’t spit any wrong words against satsang and its gurus. You don’t have any moral right.

Others freedom of expression should also be respected

When a psychiatrist or therapist charges money for their “concern” there is already a duel relationship. That is why transference is so common in paid therapeutic relationships. And there is certainly a very authoritarian structure to them. The therapist is the one who is “helping” the client. The client must reveal their most intimate vulnurabilities at the price to get that help, and then the money adds more to it. Seems to me this is the real one-sided and seriously dualistic relationship.
If there is an organization investing in companies that are strictly vegetarian, strictly “green”, don’t pollute, have themselves large contributions to charity, and are profitable – this is the way to go!
It’s a good model for how each of us should carefully spend or invest our money.
Stock is stock – the price can go up or down depending upon how well the company is run. If Howard Hughes Sr wants to gift Howard Jr with controlling shares of Hughes Tool and Die, that is his business.
Insider trading as an illegal activity is only applicable to shares of stock that skyrocket immediately AFTER the insider buys the stock, or plummets AFTER the insider has sold the stock. But then other information comes to light – the highly profitable sale of the company was shared to insiders before it took place, or the accounts were cooked to reflected more profit than was real. In the absence of such information, in the absence of sharp changes in stock value, you cannot use the label “insider trading” unless you are simply trying to find some fault somewhere.
But if you have found a way to invest in clean companies that live by the highest standards, and provide opportunity to your children to practice shepherding their inheritance wisely by giving them stock (instead of cash) all you have done is a service to your family and the world.

King Januka, the wealthy king-mystic said “pleasure and pain, it’s all the same.”
A mystic can be a pauper or a king, and both can be found historically.

Spence, actually “insider trading” has two meanings, one legal and one illegal. The first refers to non-market transfers of stock by company insiders, which is what happened with Religare. The second is using insider information to profit from stock trades.

If all the money in the world was put in Guruji’s lap and the laps of his sons, satsangis on the whole would be delighted, because a satsangi would believe that guruji and his sons who would be believed to be very high souls, would do the very best thing with the money. Whatever was done with the money, no matter how questionable to outsiders, would be highly applauded by insiders.
If sant mat was a democracy and not a dictatorship, then, the guru would ask his investors for suggestions on how to spend any money, debate the issue with a hundred or so accountants, lawyers and so forth, publish in advance what was going to be spent and on what and consider objections, make sure that all incoming money was externally audited and a prospectus sent out to all literate folk who were on e-mail. Tax would be paid out, because santmat is not a religion supposedly, but a prescribed system of how to get to the highest level, just as motivational speaking companies must pay tax.

Tara, the thing is… how do you advise or question God’s decisions? You can’t, because he’s all knowing etc. The guru virtually cannot work in a democratic way, because he presents as God. If his dealings are under-informed, or questionable, or a mistake, he wouldn’t want anyone to know, because he would be exposed.
The best way would be to teach his inherited imprisonment approach only and get his stock brokers to invest. Then he can say, ah well, so and so made a mistake and that was his karma.
People who agree with the unquestionable rights and afterlife sequences of guru god, want to be shepherded, don’t want to think, want to surrender, just want to sit in a quiet corner for two and a half hours a day and repeat the mantra for the rest while doing the bare minimum other work. Similar people with less ambition who don’t find santmat might choose rather, to watch t.v. or sleep a lot.

tell me Catherine what do you do to free your mind from self deluded superstition and mind filled indoctrination?
Seems that all these enlightened beings that come to websites such as these are the very most bound up fools thinking they’ve arrived at some clear sighted self illumined self righteous paradise.
Your understanding of who the guru is compared to who you are is so fundamentally flawed its simply not even remotely funny.
By the grace of universal evolutionary will we can but hope that such poor irresolute fools catch a wake up before the real sleep overtakes their vision less souls.

the cake (aka ashy heller – an RS satsangi fundamentalist troll from south africa):
“tell me Catherine what do you do to free your mind from self deluded superstition and mind filled indoctrination?”
— what makes you assume that her mind is not free, or has “self deluded superstition”, or “indoctrination”??? she shows no indication of any of that. but you on the other hand, you are well known for being quite “deluded”, for rigidly adhering to “superstition”, and for being full of “indoctrination”. so it appears once agin that you are merely projecting your own mental problems onto others. what benefits and wonders the RS guru-cult does for people like you!!! and you are not alone. most of the other RS guru-cult adherents who visit here show similar mental problems… so it clearly has something to do with the effects that believing and practicing the RS path has on people. and you are a prime example of the sickness that is common and typical of some (and possibly many) practicing RS satsangis. its just amazing how your meditation is making you be such a mentally balanced and loving person!!! but still its a good thing that there are not too many sick and demented RS satsangis like you. that wouldn’t be very good now, would it??
“Seems that all these enlightened beings that come to websites such as these are the very most bound up fools thinking they’ve arrived at some clear sighted self illumined self righteous paradise.”
— who says that the people who came here are enlightened?? no one here claims to be enlighted. you say they are enlightened? well you are obviously not enlighted at all, so how would you ever know that others here are enlightened?? i thought you just said above that the other people here are “deluded” and “bound up fools?? so it appears that you are now contradicting yourself. but then i guess we should expect lots of contradiction coming from a such well known delusional schizophrenic like yourself. i bet you forgot to take your meds today. yes, i believe so. well, that’s too bad.
“Your understanding of who the guru is compared to who you are is so fundamentally flawed its simply not even remotely funny.”
— well then, WHO is “the guru” Ashy?? and also, WHO are YOU?? why don’t you tell us all about who “the guru” is and who you are, instead of criticising other people that you have nmever met and don’t know anything about?? why don’t contribute something positive, some light, instead of cursing the darkness. oh i forgot, you haven’t ever gained anything positoive from sant mat and RS that you can share here. i guess thats why you are such a miserable person. well that must be the reason. all that meditation and nothing to show for it?? don’t you have anything good to say at all?? not even something positive about your guru?? nothing?? thats too bad. i guess doing RS meditation doesn’t produce very much results. well, that’s too bad.
“By the grace of universal evolutionary will we can but hope that such poor irresolute fools catch a wake up before the real sleep overtakes their vision less souls.”
— well, if it it all depends upon “the grace of universal evolutionary will”, then its not anybody’s fault now is it?? its certainly not the “poor irresolute fools” fault. and btw, have you caught a “wake up” lately?? i don’t think that train comes anywhere near your neighborhood. i think there are too many “vision less souls” over in your neck of the woods. we don’t allow any “vision less souls” or dogmatic guru-cultists around where i live, mainly because we’d blow em away with our shotguns before they could utter more than one wimpy “radha soami”. we’re awgful careful to keep them kinda varmits from making any nests around here. this is god’s country, and we don’t take kindly to any guru-cakes comin around here. no way jose. *grin*

Thanks Tara and tAo. tAo, is that icing I see on your teeth?!

THE RSSB CRISIS, A TIME FOR CHANGE, AND RENEWAL..A BLESSING IN DISGUISE?
Though understandably there appears to be some controversy about the aims of Gurinder Singh, or Babaji, and what I say here may throw some fuel on the fire. I should also stress that I still believe in the Faqir Chand type concept of the Real Inner Master as being the Higher Self, and that even an “imperfect” master can still act as a link to it with the aid of his “largely” genuine predeccessors. In other words, what I refer to as intelligent blind faith.
What is unfolding here is part of a Divine Play, and a test of faith for those devotees who come into the know about the claims made here about GS, and Religare. Infact, it might lead to a full blown crisis in which I believe RSSB should split up into smaller separate groups with transparent accounting, and a whole series of Satgurus who in part should be elected by advanced Satsangis via “corroborative” inner experience. This is something which Dayalbagh Satsang has done, and moreover, full legal background checks, and other kinds of character referencing should be carried out at the sametime. This will help to create confidence in who is outwardly a fit Personality to be in charge of particular satsang groups. So, in other words, the RSSB crisis could be a spur for change, and Gurinder Singh could ideally resign (which would be the honourable thing to do ..unless he were to come up with convincing counter-arguments not to do so), and set up plans similiar, or identical to the above. Ofcourse, this may all be just wishful thinking on my part!
Some of the following may be of interest as I feel I can speak more freely..
1. Sometime after Charan had died there was serious talk that there should be a small “run-way” for the Masters plane to land whenever he came to Haynes Park in England..At the time, my Satsangi friends found this amusing!
2. As some may know GS lived in Spain, and was involved in some manner or other with the import/export business. One story by an English teacher called “Robin” at the London Satsang claimed that he was involved in a commercial “mistake” but in spite of this a message was sent from the Dera which claimed that he was a Perfect Master, and hence could do no “wrong”. This ofcourse occured when Charan was around. “Robin” wondered what sort of Power we were dealing with?
3. I remember once that I met a gay(!) Satsangi who claimed that he had met GS (before he was married it should be said ) at some governement building if I recall correctly. Apparently, there was a group of people in which he asked an offensive question, “Do English girls f—k well” The gay Satsangi retorted by saying “You are a rude littlef—–er!” If I remember correctly there were some English girls present, and ofcourse, they would have been offended.
Apart from this it seems that GS in his young days was a bit “wild”. I recall one story in which it was claimed that Charan had just landed at an airport, and GS had music on full blast at the same time..presumably, out of respect, or rather “disrepect?” Ofcourse, one can rationalize all this as being like the controversial stories of Krishna. In other words, it would “validate” him as a Godman, or indeed, a Godman in the making from a traditional Indian point of view…
Ofcourse, the invalidation site on RSSB has some interesting claims which may have some validity along with the Beas Secret History site. As they say there is no smoke without fire….
I may explain more but as far as I am concerned the Real Master lies within, and the present crisis should be seen as a POSITIVE OPPORTUNITY FOR CHANGE though this would be arguably resisted by the dera management, and ofcourse, by GS. I look upon all this as a Play of the Lord. Let us hope something good will come out of it…. It is all his Mauj (or Will)……………………….
I will for the time being contiue to attend the RSSB Satsang in Southall, England. Each time I go there by Gurus Grace (ie the Grace of ones Higher, or Real Self) I feel joy, and awareness of superconcious energies. So, clearly irrespective of whether GS is perfect, or not there is still a positive uplifting power (whose degree of contact depends on ones receptivity)…How can that be rationally explained away unless one takes into account somethng like a Faqir Chand explanation ??

Robert writes:
“I still believe in the Faqir Chand type concept of the Real Inner Master as being the Higher Self, and that even an “imperfect” master can still act as a link to it with the aid of his “largely” genuine predeccessors.”
— what makes you think the predecessors are “largely genuine”? how you pr esume to know this? also, if there is a “higher self” like you speak of, then what need is there for “an imperfect master” (or any master) to “act as a link to it”?? what you are proposing is a duality. if you are saying the the so-called “higher self” within each person is really the guru, and the guru is really the higher self within each person, then what is the point of following an “imperfect master” who is just another ordinary human being?? so your theory doesn’t makes good sense. if one’s “higher self” is the real guru within, then there is no need for any other (outer) guru. so i have to disagree with your theory. its a contradiction. you need to decide which it is… either the real guru is your higher self (your real self), or, the guru is some other individual.
i persoanlly don’t believe in the idea of outer gurus (masters). and if there is a true self or higher self, then that is all-sufficient. no “link” or outer guru/master is needed. so this outer guru/master thing is an illusion, a myth, and it is a myth that supposed gurus tend to capitalize on and use to attract and manipulate disciples. its a sham. and thats basically what you are suggesting. you are suggesting that gurus (either perfect or imperfect) are somehow needed as links to one’s so-called “higher self”. i think thats nonsense, and for the reasons that i indicated.
“In other words, what I refer to as intelligent blind faith.”
— i don’t consider “blind faith” to be “intelligent” at all. in fact, i think its extremely lame and unintelligent. but some people are insecure and want someone or something to believe in. thats a weakness imo. its also an illusion because they think someone else is superior and possesses something that they don’t. but that is not true. no one has any special divine powers. thats a myth. some people are wiser than others, but they are still ordinary people. the “perfect master” thing is a fraud.
“What is unfolding here is part of a Divine Play, and a test of faith for those devotees who come into the know about the claims made here about GS, and Religare.”
— i disagree with that too. i think its a test of their reason and rationality and willingness to look at facts and not hide their heads in illusions and denial… not a “test of faith”. they don’t need faith, they need reason and reality.
“Infact, it might lead to a full blown crisis in which I believe RSSB should split up into smaller separate groups with transparent accounting, and a whole series of Satgurus who in part should be elected by advanced Satsangis via “corroborative” inner experience.”
— that would be absolutely ridiculous, and it would not improve anything. people don’t need any more gurus. thats the old paradigm. that era is actually over and done and is on its way out. all that is being done away with as we shift into the new aeon. you’ll see. all that guru crap is history. seriously. you are still stuck in the guru fantasy.
“full legal background checks, and other kinds of character referencing should be carried out at the sametime.”
— again, thats absurd. i encourage you to get into contact with that true “higher self” that you mention, and dispense with all this guru-cult nonsense. awaken into freedom from gurus and religion.

Just with all good fashion, the era of the gurus as gods or even guides, is over. I agree with tAo. There is just too much information available these days with which to weigh up perspectives.
Receptivity to the natural world, or to what the body is needing is rewarding- and gawd, could that be a Faqir Chand experience?
Rob, feeling good at satsang is simply to do with an hour of quietly sitting listening to something which you believe may be true. Your mind has stopped racing around and you are with kindred spirits- that’s the rational explanation in the station. Sometimes particularly good moments are felt grinding away at the office (not even with the secretary), doing difficult work and solving a problem or two.

Investment bankers can also = thumbin da cookiejar! These are not the sort of people who can be seen as being credible themselves..especially in connection with financial crsis!!!
….And what about banks ability to create money out of thin air electronically through the process of so-called credit creation!!Hhmmmm…it can be seen as a sort of legalised global con-trick…

Apologies…the above post relates to someone claiming to be an email by an “investment banker” who may have “spilled the beans” so to speak…

I agree entirely that the old guru paradigm is old hat. I believe it is possible to achieve self-salvation, or rather Self-Salvation so to speak. The problem here is our own spiritual evolution, and whether the “right” Power within can be contacted, and help the stuggling soul to achieve the “highest goal” of “God-Realization.”
…And yes, there is a “Bigger God”, and indeed, a “Bigger Picture” gradually unfolding in this RSSB drama…
….And moreover, the experiences of “higher conciousness” at the Southall centre are not the same as worldly pleasures..It is something far more real than the imagination…This can only be experienced by the individual…
There is alot more to this RSSB controversy than meets the eye. In the future I beleive these things will be better understood with the development of Multi-Dimensional Science.
Our understanding of the psychic, and spiritual will become more objective, and scientific…
My other project may be of interest though it has nothing to do with the above matter…
http://www.p2pfoundation.net/Transfinancial_Economics

This may be of interest
“Sometimes the Master seems to do things that some of us find inexplicable. Could you tell us why this should be?”
Shoti said,”That does happen. Sometimes he seems to act in a way that you think is entirely wrong and perhaps your opinion is shared by others and on occasions all the satsangis present think it wrong and say so. Then Maharaji explains and convinces them what had seemed wrong to them was really the only feasible solution because (as becomes apparent later) he could see the full implication of the whole problem and had foreseen, on another plane, what they could not possibly know”. Then he made very memorable remark: “When we see flaws in a Master, it is because he is a mirror. When we look at him, we cannot, with our limited vision, comprehend his masterhood; all we see is a reflection of our incompleteness”. (This makes me feel that it could be used as a very good yardstick of ones own progress, or rather, lack of porgress.)
In Search of the Way by Mrs.Wood, 2003 RSSB edition.p119-120…
In certain places of RSSB literature there are one, or more references claiming that the Master can be hypocritical, and it can be difficult to have faith in him if we were somehow closely connected to him physically ..
Remember the Guru is meant to equal God. Thus, he can do good…as well as bad even though our credibility in him in the latter respect may be largely, or totally destroyed during the process…..The individual alone can decide whether the Guru is truly divine, or otherwise……….

Robert writes:
“Sometimes the Master seems to do things that some of us find inexplicable. […] Maharaji explains and convinces them […] he could see the full implication of the whole problem and had foreseen, on another plane, what they could not possibly know.”
— thats bullshit. complete bullshit. its so obvious. so why are you posting this? do you really believe this?
“When we see flaws in a Master, it is because he is a mirror. When we look at him, we cannot, with our limited vision, comprehend his masterhood; all we see is a reflection of our incompleteness.”
— this is just more of the same kind of bullshit. saying that people cannot “comprehend his masterhood”, and that “he is a mirror”. this the same bullhit trick that so many other destructive cults and cult leaders (or gurus) have used to deceive and brainwash people into thinking that the leader or guru is godly and divine, or special and superior… and all the followers are inferior and blind. its absolute garbage. so why are you posting this kind of crap?
“Remember the Guru is meant to equal God.”
— thats what they want you to believe. and thats the problem.
“The individual alone can decide whether the Guru is truly divine, or otherwise”
— look, the guru is no more “truly divine” than anybody. the guru is just an ordinary mortal human being like everyone else. that is the truth, not all this other garbage propaganda and cultic mind control. so why even post this kind of crap? we all know what RS teaches. so instead of repeating the same old dogma, lets talk more about what is actually real. in other words, no ffense, but i’m not sure why it is that you are posting this sort of stuff. it sounds like you want to believe it. but then you say you don’t really. so i just don’t know where you’re at. you say you get a spiritual high when you go to an RS satsang. personally, i think that feeling is just your illusion. why? simply because its temporary and superficial. but… whatever floats your boat, i suppose.

Robert,
I agree with tAo above. You seem to be influenced by RS cult mind control, but at the same time I sense you could be open to different ideas.
One thing I notice in your comments is that you seem to think that any sort of show of human weakness, mistakes, poor judgement, etc. by the master or the RSSB organization is there as a test of the disciple, to assess his worthiness, purity, and spiritual advancement.
You seem to think that the Lord requires all this blind obedience before you can be accepted by Him…like jumping off a cliff if the master tells you to, or if you discover the master doing something unethical you should accept it as a test of faith or some kind of divinely motivated lesson.
Why is it that the mind of the faithful excuse unethical, hypocritical, inconsistent behavior as something originating for the good of the disciple from a higher region? Why is it rational to believe that?
Why does the Lord need to play such games? Why does He need to test you and find out if you are worthy? This sounds to me like a judgemental God caught up in duality of right and wrong and the pairs of opposites. It sounds like a God with a very human mind. It sounds like a God that hasn’t transcended anything and is only merciful if you behave a certain way according to certain conceptual standards.
What if the master decides that all satsangis should wear royal blue pants, yellow shirts and red shoes? You say he wouldn’t do that, but what if he did?

Tucson’s second last paragraph gives an excellent perspective as to how some perceive god. First he creates imperfect humans and then he judges and tests them.
How insane and perverted is that?

THE SUBTLE HIGHER ENERGIES OF SATSANG…
Irrespective whether GS is genuine, or not it still leaves something unanswered. How is it that depending on your receptivity one can become aware of this higher subtle energy of conciousness when one attends Satsang? I am sure Brian, and others here must have experienced varying degrees of it. It is clearly something more real, and wonderful than our imagination can conceive. This energy may well come from a number of advanced devotees in full, or in part because of their devotion to meditation, and the Real Inner Master (ie. Higher Self, or Personal God as opposed to the physical form, and personality of the Guru which can act as a link to the True Master). This devotion may well radiate itself as higher conciousness/love into the surrounding environment of the Satsang. In the case of the Southall Satang buildings it seems to also radiate beyond its parameters. As one gets close to these structures (especially the main opening of the Satsang in which people “flood” in,and out) the energies become very intense, and uplifting.It has an extraordinary calming effect on the mind.
As someone pointed out this energy when one returns home does not necessarily last for long. However, with more visits to Satsang it can be present at home to some extent, and can manifest itself as a slowly developing inner bliss via meditation…though the latter may be unconnected in some way….
How does all this relate to the present “allegations” about RSSB…and indeed, does it really matter if people are experiencing such varying degrees of this bliss at Satsang…? How does it connect up..if at all to our limited understanding, and vision?
For what its worth my psi senses seem to indicate that the energies do indeed come partly from advanced Satsangies collectively, and ALSO very gently descends from the ceiling suggesting a secondary source. What is the source of this secondary source..so to speak!! Remember we are dealing with something beyond the imagination
…

Robert,
The energies of love and devotion that are felt at satsang are very uplifting and reading what you have just said has made me quite nostalgic.
With regard to the allegations that are happening, my thoughts are that as history has shown, when the last guru in a line dies and a successor is not nominated that is when that particular path becomes a religion.
With all the RS study centers being built in different cities around the world and also the growth of the organizational side, perhaps this is an indication that RSSB is already moving in that direction. Probably quite a few of the older satsangis are thinking this as well.

Two fuzzy black, and white photos of Gugu, or baby Gurinder Singh with Charan Singh. It is sad to see how things have worked out for the latter so far especially in connection with Religare…
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2439576764&ref=ts#!/group.php?gid=2439576764&v=photos
Ref. Radha Soami Mat Spiritual FRIENDS Facebook

I would like to point out that the sort of energy one experiences in RS Satsang, and other eastern groups surpasses anything experienced in any church,temple, mosque, or other similiar religion. Such places are “DEAD” no matter how well-meaning their followers may…
As for Gurus per se one I would recommend is Sant Harjit Singh who enjoys a very good reputation. He does not have huge amounts of property, and I believe he still works for his living. He is extremely approachable.
I have often had long conversations with him on the phone…and you can also feel his energy coming through at the same time!! He is a very good channel of higher spiritual energy, and ofcourse does not charge a penny.
Harjit comes from a line of teachers going back to Shiv Dayal Singh. Faqir Chand was also his master. Initiation is actually spontaneous for the real seeker, and can at any time…. There is no form filling, or any other bureaucratic stuff like that. If you listen to some of his music extracts several times you should be able to pick up his energy if one is sensitive, and if one focuses love on him even though he is not physically present..
http://www.babafaqirchand.com/

Robert,
here are some of the statements that you made, and then my reactions to them.
you said:
“How is it that depending on your receptivity one can become aware of this higher subtle energy of conciousness when one attends Satsang?”
— but you are assuming that there is a “higher subtle energy of conciousness”, and that exists in a particular location, the venue where the satsang is held. i find that to be an odd and rather unlikely supposition. i do think that it is your belief and perhaps the belief of other people as well. however, beliefs are well known to create impressions and experiences. but this phenomena is largely the result of indivividual and collective imagination, and does not have any actual reality. in other words, if you believe that satsangs have unique spiritual energy, then thats the experience that you tend to manifest. but it is really just imagination and illusory, although you may seem to feel uplifted by it. the reason that i say that it is not real, is because it is temporary and isolated. also, if you have a whole group of people assembled in one location, in a room, and they all believe this same sort of thing, then it tends to create that illusionary atmosphere. and in my opinion, thats all it really is. but i suspeact that you don’t want to recognize that. i can tell it by the over-all drift of your comments. also, i know how this works, because i used to feel the same way that you do – that satsnags and temples and holy places have an atmospher of spiritual energy. but i eventually found that to be nothing more than a projection of my own belief and mind, and not something that has any real existence.
“I am sure Brian, and others here must have experienced varying degrees of it.”
— like i said, i used to think that was true, and so it seemed and felt to exist, but it was only my own ‘spiritual’ consciousness, and not any independent spiritual energy present in some outside location or satsang. and contrary to your belief that it is unique to RS satsangs, i have experienced (or projected) that sensation (or illusion) in circumstances other than RS. such as in some hindu holy dhams (temples, ashrams, and holy places), some tibetan monasteries, around some sufi saints, at the abodes of a few sages and yogis… at various places around India and Nepal and Sri Lanka. so it is not at all unique to only RS satsangs. and it is not a feeling of any superior spiritual energy with RS either. and as i said, its an illusion in the mind. in other words, beauty (or spirituality) is in the eye (or the mind) of the beholder.
“It is clearly something more real, and wonderful than our imagination can conceive.”
— i do not agree with that at all. it is merely your wishful imagination. perhaps someday you will realize that. that its all in YOU. its not ‘out there’.
“This energy may well come from a number of advanced devotees in full, or in part because of their devotion to meditation, and the Real Inner Master (ie. Higher Self, or Personal God”
— again, imo, this is an illsuion. first, you are assuming there are “a number of advanced devotees”. then you are assuming that their devotion and meditation and belief in a personal god is emanating ‘higher spiritual energy’. these are all completely unfounded and unsubstantiated assumptions and beliefs. and when i was involved in RS (back in Charan’s day), i didn’t see ANY “advanced devotees”. most RS satsangis that i encountered (several hundred) were struggling with their meditation and other rather mundane stuff in their personal lives. but i have known a few truly advanced sadhakas, yogis and sages (outside of RS), and they were far beyond and more “advanced” than any of the RS satsangis. so on that basis, i completely disagree with you that there are any advanced RS satsangis. if the truth be told, i think you would find that most RS satsangis have not achieved anything at all from their years of RS meditation and guru devotion and seva. and i think that Brian suspects this as well. so i think you are basically caught in a wishful fantasy.
“This devotion may well radiate itself as higher conciousness/love into the surrounding environment of the Satsang.”
— i already explained above why i do not think this is true. however, devotion does tend to create an kind of atmosphere… its just not the true “higher consciousness” that you believe it to be. far from it.
“In the case of the Southall Satang buildings it seems to also radiate beyond its parameters.”
— thats an illusion, imo. its a trype of spiritual materialism. think that supposed ‘spiritual energy’ pervades material space and objects. its a total myth. there is no evidence to support this. its just a belief in the metaphysical or the supernatural. its nonsense imo. so i can see where you are at. you are an RS satsang & guru-cult believer. thats ok, but it doesn’t mean that what you believe is real.
“As one gets close to these structures (especially the main opening of the Satsang in which people “flood” in,and out) the energies become very intense, and uplifting.”
— like i said, this phenomena happens around all sorts of groups of people (not just RS). like a big rock concert for instance. or in a place where there is religious fervor. but it is not ‘higher spiritual energy’. thats an illusion.
“It has an extraordinary calming effect on the mind.”
— thats just YOUR OWN belief that is causing that.
“As someone pointed out this energy when one returns home does not necessarily last for long. However, with more visits to Satsang it can be present at home to some extent, and can manifest itself as a slowly developing inner bliss via meditation.”
— again, this is an illusion. the ‘after-glow’ is all in you. its not anywhere else, or from anything else. its all your own mind. so wake up from this fantasy.
How does all this relate to the present “allegations” about RSSB…and indeed, does it really matter if people are experiencing such varying degrees of this bliss at Satsang?”
“For what its worth my psi senses seem to indicate that the energies do indeed come partly from advanced Satsangies collectively, and ALSO very gently descends from the ceiling suggesting a secondary source.”
— i am sorry dude, but i have to say that you are in pseudo-spiritual la-la-land. there is absolutely nothing coming from the ceiling or another “secondary source”. there are no advanced satsangis. and none of these people are experiencing real bliss. so i can really see how you think now. you are not any different than millions of other very deluded and irrational people who believe all sorts of supernatural and superstitious nonsense. i hope that you wake up soon out of your dream. reality is much more fulfilling than any mystical illusion or fantasy.
“What is the source of this secondary source..so to speak!! Remember we are dealing with something beyond the imagination”
— “something beyond”?? no, thats not what it is. YOU are dealing with something that is WITHIN YOUR imagination.
“the sort of energy one experiences in RS Satsang, and other eastern groups surpasses anything experienced in any church,temple, mosque, or other similiar religion.”
— i addressed this above. i totally disagree with you. and i have much experience to back up my position. i have seen the same sort of illusion going on with christians and christian churches, moslems and islamic mosques, new-agers & their ‘sacred sites’, and so on. so your premise i that only eastern spirituality has this going on, is incorrect.
“Such places are “DEAD” no matter how well-meaning their followers”
— listen dude, ALL supposed spiritual or ‘holy’ places are “DEAD”, including RS satsangs and RS satsang venues. even the RS doctrine says that. Sar Bachan perhaps?? and btw, i just wonder how many satsangis at your Southhall satsang are of Indian origin?? probably alot. that makes for an east indian spiritual/religious atmosphere. catch my drift?
“As for Gurus per se one I would recommend is Sant Harjit Singh who enjoys a very good reputation. He does not have huge amounts of property, and I believe he still works for his living. He is extremely approachable.”
— well, i am not looking for any more sant mat gurus, or gurus period. so i really couldn’t care less. its basically the same trip even if your guy isn’t rich and powerful and hs lots of disciples. i am just not in the guru seeking business. in fact, i would advise people to avoid all that. so you are promioting something that i happen to take a rather dim view of. people these days don’t need to get hung up in any more gurus. they need to become self-empowered and just accept and be themselves. they don’t need to follow some pseudo-guru who is no more spiritual than they are. so i don’t dig what you are promoting. its not liberating, its misleading. no guru (or sant mat master) can offer more than that which innate, that which is always already the case. all these supposed gurus and sants are fakes, shams, and con-artists. its the business of selling spirituality. and i don’t give a hot what he does for a living. if he props himself up as being a master or a “Sant”, then he is playing a role and misleading people. and you are a sucker if you believe that you need a master. my hope is that you can break out of that myth, and be free of it.
“I have often had long conversations with him on the phone…and you can also feel his energy coming through at the same time!! He is a very good channel of higher spiritual energy, and ofcourse does not charge a penny.”
— its irrelevant that he doesn’t charge money. he is still settinhimself up as a “sant”, a master. he has disciples. so he is misleading those people. he is not freeing them. he himself is not free. otherwise he would not be doing that. its as simple as that. so you are just a seeker and a believer who is gullible and fooled by the myth. you have not awakened to thatr which is always already the case… hence you still seek and follow after pseudo masters and gurus.
“Harjit comes from a line of teachers going back to Shiv Dayal Singh.”
— so what? are you kidding? as if that really means anything? it doesn’t. who was shiv dayal singh anyway? well, he was basically a nut and a misfit and a wannbee guru who (supposedly) locked himself up in a dark closet and didn’t come out for 17 years. thats not admirable or mentally balanced. then there was all the strange politics etc. so the guy is certainly not someone that i regard as sane or wise or saintly.
“Faqir Chand was also his master.”
— faqir chand was also a goofy character for most of his life. he played the guru game. only at the end did he begin to admit honestly that sant mat was somehat full of shit. but he vacillated too. so he is no great inspiration either. all of these sant mat gurus are more or less frauds.
“Initiation is actually spontaneous for the real seeker, and can at any time…. There is no form filling, or any other bureaucratic stuff like that.”
— well, i do agree with that at least. but being a “seeker” (or a disciple) is a dead end. reality is that which is always already the case.

Good comment tAo. I especially agree with “they need to become self-empowered and just accept and be themselves”.
After being enmeshed in guru type worship there has to be a kind of “self awakening”.
It may take some time for this new perspective to take hold… speaking from experience here 🙂

Jen, just remember how you were before you knew anything about gurus, back when you were younger. you were just fine being yourself. you didn’t even think about it. you didn’t need spirituality, salvation, mysticism, or belief. you were full of life and fully present in the moment.
but then eventually you lost that presence and reality when you got fooled into thinking and believing that you needed a spiritual master (a guru) and that you needed to escape from this world into some other inner realm.
but you didn’t really lose yourself or lose your true reality. you can never really lose it. reality is that which is always already the case. you simply got tricked into the duality of thinking that you need spirituality and mysticism. so just realize that that was an illusion. because the real is that which is always already the case.

I was amused by the comment that the subtle energy experiences of Satsang are products of the imagination. The question is what is IMAGINATION apart from the obvious verbal definition….
What I am saying is that though science has made great strides in brain research the fact remains that mental imagery such as those in visions, and concious phenomena such as feelings, and will-power are clearly not the same as neuron nerves firing in the brain,and elsewhere in the body proper. To put it simply, the mental imagery, and indeed, the supertactile experiences of an “extraordinary nature” (ie. the Satsang energies)are largely if not wholly inexplicable, and seem to be experienced by more than one person (ie. a collective delusion??)..Now, since we cannot FULLY explain scientifically the actual mechanics of the imagination itself (apart from “unscientific” semantic games!!) as being some kind of neural brain activity it is somewhat premature if not obtuse to suggest with any authority that these higher energies experiences are purely self-created delusions…It is essentially an open question. You have your opinion, and I have mine….
I should point out that I have never ever taken drugs….but even if I had you cannot explain away one unknown(ie. imagination) with another unknown (ie.the Satsang energies)……
It would be nice to ask Brian Hines himself whether he experienced any kind of positive “atmosphere” with his long experience of RSSB?

There is a wonderful calming energy in R.S. satsang if you are a believing or an aspiring satsangi. I carefully consider it to be caused by a group mixture of faith, hope, masocism and ambition threaded with the habit of sitting quietly in meditation.
If you are not a satsangi, then it can be peaceful but nauseating.
So the probability is high that the feeling is what one believes in the safety of ones own type of crowd.

Depending on your senstivity it does not just come from the people at Satsang but also manifests itself as a highly subtle energy gently descending from the ceiling.Sometimes, a bright highly subtle glow is detected from some devotees along with rays of white ethereal light. Yet, I cannot prove it in any objective sense…

Robert, I agree with Catherine: different people experience different things in satsang with the guru. I’ve had direct experience of this myself.
For example, my non-initiated wife felt nothing in the presence of Gurinder Singh. Once, in a non-satsang meeting, she was ushered to the front row which brought her as close as possible to the guru. She felt nothing special from him.
I’ve been in satsangs with the guru where some people were crying tears of devotion and others were unmoved.
Robert, are you old enough to remember when the Beatles first came to this country? Girls were fainting all over the place. Other people simply enjoyed a concert. Fervent emotion/devotion, of any sort, produces strong effects in the brain.
It makes sense, as I’ve been blogging about recently, to make an inference to the best explanation. Since the devoted feeling you speak of is mostly limited to people who already consider the guru to be “special,” and there is no demonstrable evidence of anything divine other than in the minds of the devotees, the best explanation is religious fervor.

Robert writes:
“the fact remains that mental imagery such as those in visions, and concious phenomena such as feelings, and will-power are clearly not the same as neuron nerves firing in the brain’
— well how do you know that it is not? you don’t know that. you just believe that. you seem to repeatedly mistake your personal beliefs as being facts. neuro-science would disagree with your assertion. because visions, feelings, and will-power all apparently do originate and are dependent upon the brain and so-called “neuron nerves”. you are just not well informed. and you quite obviously believe in supernatural explanations for such things. that’s magical thinking. and so i happen to find YOUR mentality ‘amusing’.
“the mental imagery, and indeed, the supertactile experiences of an “extraordinary nature” (ie. the Satsang energies)are largely if not wholly inexplicable”
— not true. the brain can and does produce all sorts of various sensations. and there is really nothing “extraordinary” or “inexplicable” about that. you seem to want to make this all seem mystical and spiritual and extraordinary. its not. you are being deceived by your imagination and your tendency to resort to supernatural explantions.
“and seem to be experienced by more than one person (ie. a collective delusion??)”
— yes, collective delusions do happen, especially if the people involved all have the same beliefs and magical thinking. and i see that is quite evident in your comments. you tend to entertain a significant degree of magical thinking. magical thinking tends towards the irrational and illogical. hence your belief in the supernatural. go look up the definition of “magical thinking” and see how your views compare to that. and you are not the only one. in general, almost all satsangis already had magical thinking, or they have bought into magical thinking when they got into sant mat and the RS guru-cult. from your beliefs as evidenced in your statements, i observe that you have a considerable degree of magical thinking.
“we cannot FULLY explain scientifically the actual mechanics of the imagination itself […] as being some kind of neural brain activity it is somewhat premature if not obtuse to suggest with any authority that these higher energies experiences are purely self-created delusions”
— regardless of the question of how imagination works, your explanation about the nature of your supposed perceptions of ‘higher energies’ coming from the ceiling etc etc, is clearly magical thinking.
“You have your opinion, and I have mine.”
— my opinions are based only on known and accepted facts. your opinions are based on a belief in supernatual causes and magical thinking. thats the difference. you are clearly a believer in RS mysticism and the supernatual. i am not. i don’t have any need for what i consider to be the myth of mysticism and belief in the supernatural.
“I should point out that I have never ever taken drugs….but even if I had you cannot explain away one unknown(ie. imagination) with another unknown (ie.the Satsang energies)”
— wrong. imagination means imaginary. imaginary means that it has no demonstrable evidence, hence it is merely “imaginary” or delusionary. in your case, “imagination” simply pertains to your obvious magical thinking and belief in supernatural causes. and to anyone else who entertains belief in supernatural causes. you may think that perceive what you have described, i am not arguing or doubting that, it is your explanation of what you say you perceieve. that is the issue here. and i say YOUR EXPLANATION of the phenomena that you claim you perceive during and around RS satsangs… that is magical thinking.
and it is also quite telling that people who are not believers in the mysticism and theology and cosmology of sant mat and RS, they do not perceive any “extraordinary” or “higher” energies going on there.
it is a well known fact that belief has a tendency create a corresonding experience or perception.
“It would be nice to ask Brian Hines himself whether he experienced any kind of positive “atmosphere” with his long experience of RSSB?”
— i am sure he will give you his honest reponse. for myself, also having 30 years of experience, i can say that the atmosphere at RS satsangs is not much different than being at the satsangs of other meditation paths…. generally a quiet and peaceful atmosphere with people being in a reverent mood. when people gather together who all believe and practice the same meditaion and have the same guru (or line of gurus), then what you get is a seemingly ‘spiritual’ atmosphere. but thats all it is. and some christians have virtually the same type of experience as you claim to have. also, i have also known sufis who do experience the same atmosphere and the same supposed subtle or divine or “higher energies”, and feelings of transcendental spiritual illumination.
but it is my conclusion that this phenomena is all just self-generated. i don’t deny that some people experience it… its just your explanation of what is the nature, origin, and cause of it, is what i disagree with.
your explanation of the nature, the origin, and the cause of the “higher energies” you claim to perceieve at RS satsangs, is magical thinking due to your belief in RS mysticism and the supernatural. and, you may possibly even have had some magical thinking before you ever got into RS.

geez for folk to propound with such supposed clarity and certainty on the fakery of RS gurus and the suckers that follow them – despite also having sought out sages and wise men from tibet to sri lanka.
maybe you suckers are more confused than anyone else. you dont know your metaphysicals from your fundaments any more.
most of you been signed up to RS for decades, so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers. thats the truth of the matter, call me guru georgey ji.

what was quite interesting was Brian’s reference to the Beatles and the almost intangible hold they had over certain of their acolytes. it does raise a more general question of the human psyche’s apparent yearning for charasmatic leaders, who are transformed by minds from men to demi-gods – not just rock groups, cult leaders and political leaders too.

George wrote: “most of you been signed up to RS for decades, so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers.”
–As far as I am concerned you are correct. I was a sucker to buy into RS. Maybe other appropriate words would be gullible, stupid, or naive’. But that does not necessarily invalidate my views about RS now. I’m not sure what your point is in saying that. Do you mean to imply that we former satsangis are still clueless because we bought into RS decades ago…once a fool, always a fool?
Robert wrote: “… a bright highly subtle glow is detected from some devotees along with rays of white ethereal light…”
–I know what you are referring to and I have seen this frequently for many years. It is no big deal. All it takes is a little concentration and focus and you will begin to pick up the pranic, vibratory energy emitted from living beings (people, dogs, trees, aardvarks) and even some supposedly inanimate objects.
I first began to notice this in my early satsang days even before I was initiated. I would be so focused on the satsang giver that I would begin to see this halo or glow around them. Some people have more of this vital energy than others. For most people it extends out a few inches to a couple of feet. Some people fill the room with their energy, but I haven’t noticed that this means they are any more “spiritual” than anyone else. They are just powerful in their persona, focused in a task, strong in their egos or talents. Like celebrities, and that sort of person.

George, almost everyone is “addicted” to something. And often it is recognized that this thing which was believed to be so true and wonderful, isn’t.
A large proportion of marriages end in divorce. Many people end up dissatisfied with the car they bought. Careers often are changed because they don’t appeal anymore.
Religious beliefs/attractions are no different. Life is change, growth, learning. We try something, see what it is like, and then decide whether to keep on with it, or try something else.

quoting George:
“for folk to propound with such supposed clarity and certainty on the fakery of RS gurus and the suckers that follow them – despite also having sought out sages and wise men from tibet to sri lanka.” quoting George.
— not all paths are the same, and not all gurus are wise sages. and more importantly, i wasn’t criticising RS per se, i was addressing Robert’s perceptions, explanations, and beliefs. in your rush to be flippant, you seem to have missed that. so i don’t think you have any idea about what you are criticising. also fyi, i didn’t ‘seek out’ sages and wise men. but i did encounter some sadhus and yogis who were sagely and wise.
“maybe you suckers are more confused than anyone else. you dont know your metaphysicals from your fundaments any more.”
— i’d say that you are the one who appears to be confused, and you have an attitude.
“most of you been signed up to RS for decades”
— you are wrong. i have not “been signed up to RS”. i never “signed up” to RS. i am not “signed up” to anything. so in my case, you are incorrect. fyi, i haven’t had any involvement or participation with RS or its beliefs and practices for over 20 years. the last time i had any sort of proximity to RS, was in the spring of 1990. i haven’t had anything whatsoever to do with RS since then. and other folks involvements are likely different than mine. so not everyone is the same here George. people’s involvements with RS vary. so lumping everyone together is incorrect.
“so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers.”
— you don’t know that either. you don’t know how much i or anyone was “suckerd”… unless they tell you. and i have already said many times that i was never any sort of firm believer in RS. i got initiated into RS only because i wanted to check it out. i didn’t buy into it, and i wasn’t “suckered” into it, like you are suggesting. i was never a believer. i merely gave the meditation a ‘test drive’ for awhile. i wasn’t into all the beliefs or the cult aspect of it. other folks im sure were different about it. so again, stop lumping everyone together.
as Brian so rightly said: “Life is change, growth, learning. We try something, see what it is like, and then decide whether to keep on with it, or try something else.”
“thats the truth of the matter, call me guru georgey ji.”
— no that is NOT “the truth of the matter”. your comment is far away from the truth. and you are obviously belittling critics and skeptics, and making blanket personal judgements by calling anyone who has ever even minimally checked out RS as being “suckers”. thats pretty darn lame, if you ask me.
and frankly, i am a bit weary of that kind of attitude and personal insinuations thaty have no basis in fact. its a waste of my time responding to this sort of thing.
so it think i’m gonna bow out of here for awhile. i will leave you to your denigrating the skeptics and former RS initiates. you don’t seem to want to engage in reasonable discussion and debate (outside of the topic of science).
i simply offered my well considered thoughts, reasonings, and conclusions about what i observe as Robert’s magical thinking as it relates to his theories about “higher energies” at his RS satsang. and i pretty much said what i wanted to say about that in a fairly polite manner.
but you are on a whole other trip george. one which clearly borders on personal ridicule and denigration. i have quit doing that sort of thing some time ago. you haven’t.
however, i don’t have time to waste responding to those kind of comments. so, the only way for me to go… is away. therefore…
adios amigos. keep it real.

tAo, I would like to say that most of your comments lately, especially to Robert, have been right on the mark and insightful, imo.

Ofcourse, people experiences different “things” at Satsang. Some may experience nothing at all.However, I think we could posit the claim that many of them have similiar “devotional energy experiences”. But depending on ones level of receptivity the experience is more pronounced than in others.
There is something I should add here. I was initiated by Harjit Singh via spontaneous initiation in 2007 which involved instant contact with higher energies of conciousness. I may cut, and paste my experiences here including an almost identical happening with Dr.Sharma in 1990. The point here is that both teachers came from the same line of gurus (ie. the Faqir Chand one). So what? Well, I have met many gurus, and yes, I did not feel much if anything from them at all save for the two mentioned here….This might suggest an objective dynamic at work because it could be assumed that both Harjit, and Sharma came from the same “highest” plane of existence,and for some reason, or other I was somehow easily connected to them so to speak…
Moreover, due to Harjit, and the awakening he gave to me I found when I returned to RSSB this year that the Satsang energies were more pronounced than ever before when I used to regularly attend them in the 1980s, and the early 1990s.
I think my evolving project of Multi-Dimensional Science will through the process of time help to clarify many things. For more info just press on my name….

I have decided to cut, and paste my experiences…
Meeting Dr Sharma.
Back in summer 1990 I met up with Dr Sharma also referred to as Manav Dayal a
teacher of “Shabd Yoga” in the Faqir Chand tradition. I came across him via a
contact who claimed that it might be best to meet him at Heathrow Airport which
was not far from where I lived at the time (ie Slough). This I did, and went to
the correct arrival point for passengers. I had a sign with his name on it. The
only pic I had of him was as a younger man, and it was not a particularly good
reproduction. Anyway, I waited awhile as the passengers left the plane, and then
I saw an Asian go towards a portly elderly man from the crowd of onlookers. He
put a garland around the new arrival to Britain. This I knew to be a traditional
gesture of respect to someone of importance, and I rightly guessed that it was
Dr. Sharma being honoured. The Asian devotee though seemed taken aback by
this….
Anyway, I talked briefly to Dr. Sharma, and for whatever reasons he mentioned
something about psychic odours. Personally, I found this an odd subject compared
with the high brow thinking of “Shabd Yoga”, and Sant Mat. Indeed, I have to
confess that I found Sharma to be somehow eccentric in manner.
After that, I drove down to Hammersmith, London to a certain address to meet him
again for an interview I was doing for the magazine Yoga and Healing Dr. Sharma
was staying with some devotees, and I hardly got any questions out as he seemed
to be intent in giving a long rambling intellectual discourse on Hindu
mysticism. This was recorded ofcourse but unfortunately the tape was later lost.
Anyway, he referred to Sant Mat as Sat Mat ,or the Path of Truth, and regarded
Beas Satsang as “…..being like an empire.” He may well have got these two
points from his own master Faqir Chand, and simply repeated them to me. He also
gave the old traditional interpretation of the word Radha, and reversed it by
repeating it as “Dhara, Dhara, Dhara,”….. .meaning spiritual current! At some
point during the interview (or should I say discourse from Dr Sharma!) I thought
I heard him say the following… …”I do know not who is saying this. Some
current is flowing through me..” or words to that effect. Again, I must stress
the word “thought” of him saying this as I do not fully recall whether this
actually appeared on the tape, or not! Maybe a trick of the mind……..
After all this, I had an informal chat with him. At one point, he left the room,
and thereupon re-appeared, and said “I am your Satguru!” Later, we had a
wonderful vegetarian lunch.
When I left to return to Slough in my car I had an extraordinary experience. I
became aware of a power flowing through me. It was controlling me in the most
NATURAL, and SPONTANEOUS manner. There was no fear of any sort involved. It was
as if something truly wonderful had been re-discovered from ages past. This
energy was incredibly subtle in a way that is difficult to describe. It was a
super-tactile experience. No sounds, or lights, or anything similiar was had. It
was a PROCESS of AWAKENING from the dream-like creation of the physical
universe. Though I used the word “natural” just now in capitals it was somehow
more than “natural”.
This experience went on for a long while. The following day after my encounter
with Dr. Sharma I rang him about it. He commented to his suprise “……that it
was happening already ” (spontaneous initiation). However, I felt that this
subtle energy seemed to be trying to “control” me too much, and I managed to
break away from it. I would have loved the intensity of that experience to have
continued but the problem was that I did not really take Dr. Sharma very
seriously, and did not regard him as my real Satguru. Yet, as Jashan Vaswani
once informed me, and an audience that “THE REAL SATGURU IS WITHIN YOU” Oddly
enough, this was what Faqir Chand claimed…that the physical master only acts
as a catalyst for psycho-spiritual experiences. This was something I did not
appreciate, or fully knew about at the time.
Sadly, Dr. Sharma passed on several years ago, but the teachings continue
through various lines of “masters”.
Postscript. I should also said that at the interview Dr Sharma claimed that the
Sound Om could be heard not just in the lower realm but also in the higher ones.
A Sant Mat purist might well interpret this as indicative that his “version” of
Shabd Yoga did not lead beyond the planes of Kal, and Maya. Morever, it is not
seen as the highest spiritual meditation, but seen as being one of many.
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MEETING HARJIT SINGH
In January 2007 I made contact with Sant Harjit Singh. He is one of the
recognized successors of Faqir Chand. Before actually visiting him in Southall I
viewed his website, and on occassions listened to his music, or rather extracts
of it to be more precise. It definitely carried a highly subtle energy, and
helped to create a devotional “atmosphere” in me (ie. a heightening of
conciousness) . What occured was a PROCESS largely identical to that experienced
after visiting Dr. Sharma back in 1990. This could be suggestive that both
teachers reached the same “highest”, or “ultimate” level of superconciousness
usually indicative of “God-Realization” though ofcourse there are an infinity of
different planes. The key features of the PROCESS OF AWAKENING is as follows.
i) An awareness that ones own inner lower self was being slowly transmuted into
something else in the most NATURAL, and SPONTANEOUS manner. In other words, I
was “dying” to gradually be reborn into a higher state of being……
ii) An awareness of being surrounded by the unseen energies of higher
conciousness especially in the evening.
iii) An awareness at times of being “possessed” in the most NATURAL, and
SPONTANEOUS fashion by these extremely subtle “forces” without any sense of fear
at all. Yet, there was something akin to awe by the growing onset of these
experiences, and at times an overwhelming sense of gratitude. This was ones
feeble response to the awakening process.
iv) An ability to spontaneously control, and dissolve any improper thoughts
entering the mind.
v) A greater ability as never before to actually calm the mind without any
mental chatter . In other words, I often became one-pointed with the repetition
of the Five Holy Names in a wonderfully NATURAL way. I suspect the unseen
energies were stilling my mind oftentimes to perform “real” meditation.
The above is all GRACE without which any kind of spiritual practice is virtually
impossible. Infact, I am coming to the conclusion that a true Master of any
degree should be able to successfully transmit such experienes irrespective of
the evolution of the disciple. However, I suspect that it depends on ones
sincerity for it to happen rather upon the amount of purity an individual soul
may, or may not have.
Anyway, I met Sant Harjit Singh at his Southall home. Just before that, and
earlier on at home in Slough I was acutely aware of energies of higher
coniousness. When I arrived at Harjits home positive vibrations were virtually
palpable, and inspiring. As I entered the front room I shook hands with him. He
was dressed in orange, and wore a homemade turban if I recall correctly.
I explained I had some experiences before meeting him. I claimed that the higher
conciousness which was trying to “posses” me in the most SUBTLE, NATURAL, AND
SPONTANEOUS fashion was influening my behaviour for the good. Submission to it
was proving beneficial. I also mentioned being suddenly awoken in the bed when I
felt a transmission of energy shoot right though me. This caused my body to
jerk. Harjit claimed that this was do with the (spiritual) heart though I did
fully understand what he meant by this.. I also mentioned my contact with a
certain Sound though this may well have been a trick of the mind.
Though I asked only few questions Harjit two, or three times asked “Can I go
now?” as he was wanting to do some meditation upstairs. Admitedly, he did have
some doubt about the genuiness of my experiences. He also seemed to regard Dr.
Sharma, the chief successor of Faqir Chand a little questionable too. This was
evident in the way he spoke. Like many devotees of the latter Master the former
was not liked particularly. However, Sharma did visit Harjit Singh on a certain
occassion.
One thing that did clearly tanspire in the meeting was this. Harjit Singh
clearly revealed that there was no set sequence of planes as indicated in the
Radhaswami literature. Indeed, such things were merely mental projections
nothing more, nothing less.
What I did not fully appreciate at the time was the fact that though Harjit
Singh was billed as a master of surat shabd yoga he also taught other yogic type
systems. In other words, it was not treated as being the highest, and most
advanced form of meditation. Rather it was actually seen as one of many other
systems of spiritual evolution. This contradicts the Radhaswami Teachings as
presented notably by Shiv Dayal Singh.
Harjit Singh understandably wanted his exact address secret. The reason was that
he wanted to make sure that whoever visited him was “genuine” in their desire
for spiritual progress rather than someone who was merely interested in
intellectual “games”.

…Also another thing, I recall Faqir Chand making the claim that unsrupulous gurus would ofcourse take advantage of disciples knowing that visions, and miracles connected with them would make them believe in them as being Divine. Such self-generated phenomena however does not imply that they are all “hallucinations” or decptions from the lower mind. Instead they could also come from the Higher Self, or our Personal God.
Similiarly, a devout Christian may have visions of Jesus. But these could possibly come from his, or her Higher Self depending ones karmas, and grace…But ofcourse, we know nothing about Christs real character, or indeed, whether he existed at all!!!!

now now grandmaster Tao, no need to get so serious.
i;m just pulling your leg, besides there’s a bit of truth to what i say – do you not think its a bit hyprocritical calling others suckers for their beliefs if you’ve dabbled in the same esoteric ponds yourself, or is that not fair comment?
sorry for the flippancy, but i seem to picture you travelling thru tibet like mr mayugi…’ahh grasshopper you have much too learn’…or ‘rearn’ if expressed in a tibetan accent.

well george, here’s how i look at it:
i was only responding to Robert’s theories and beliefs about what he says that he perceives at RS satsang meetings. and i gave my own opinions and conclusions regarding that. thats all. i was not critiquing RS or calling Robert a “sucker” because he is involved in sant mat. i simply said that he is obviously a believer in sant mat. i don’t have a problem with that. but you have tried to imply that i do. perhaps you were only joking, but you did not make that known. and saying that anyone who has ever got intitated or done sant mat meditation is somehow a “sucker”, and any former intitate who criticises RS is a hypocrite, well thats not funny. its not a joke. why? because its not true. its personal ridicule and sarcastic misrepresentation. there are other far better things to joke about. i’m all for a litte humor, but that did not come across as humor at all.
also, as i have carefully explained, i was never an RS believer. lots of other RS initiates (satsangis) are very much hard-core RS believers, and very dogmatic. i was never that way. i simply received the initiation so that i could try out the meditation. thats all i ever did. in the process, around that time, i did go visit the RSSB colony in northern India a few times. but i was never into the RS cult. i always remained pretty much detached from it. i don’t like cults, and never did. i have been involved with other spiritual teachers and teachings, but i was the same way with those as well. so i was not, and am not a hypocrite. on this blog i have criticised RS dogma and cultic believers. but i was never one of them. since i know quite alot about sant mat and RS, and i have experience in it, i feel that i am more than entitled to critique the RSSB, its teaching and doctrine, its gurus, and its followers. that doesn’t make me another sucker or a hypocrite. so thats why i take offense when you try to assert that everyone who has had any involvement with sant mat is a “sucker”. people can and do try out spiritual paths without being hard-core believers or “suckers”. and i am one of those people. there are many other sant mat and RS satsangis who are very much dogmatic cult-minded believers, fundamentalists if you will. but not everyone is or was. i have tried to explain this before, about a year ago. but you seem to continue lumping together anyone who has ever done sant mat meditation, and call them all suckers. and, you implied that i am also a “sucker” and thus insinuate that i am a hypocrite, simply because i tried out RS meditation about 25 years ago. well thats just wrong.
so i think it would be very helpful, that if you don’t agree with my thoughts, views and opinions, to simply address WHY you don’t agree with them, instead of making false insinuations and ridicule about me persoanally. if you think that my opinions are incorrect, then explain why. don’t just ridicule me for being a supposed hypocrite merely because you assume (albeit wrongly) that i am just another RS “sucker” too.
and btw, imo its not too cool to tell me “no need to get so serious”, when you were the one who called anyone who ever got sant mat initiation and has tried out meditation, a “sucker”. criticising mysticism and religious organizations is one thing, but personal stuff is another. so lets try to be fair to each other. (unless of course somebody is outright attacking and ranting and preaching a bunch of dogma)

Tara,
I was interested in your reference to a RS elite so to speak.
When I went to the London Satsang in the 1980s, and early 90s I met William Pryor, and took an instant dislike towards him. I found him to be a cold obnoxious snob. He always mixed with the “elite” members of the Satsang, and avoided those who might be of a “lower social order” of one kind, or another. I would be very suprised if he has changed at all in spite of presumably doing meditation!!
Unfortunately, Pryor was the person who gave me, and others the Five Holy Names to repeat, and practice at initiation into RSSB.
Unsuprisingly, he has a blog which is ofcourse beautifully edited (as he is a stickler to grammar, spelling etc, and is, or was the editor of the Spiritual Link).He also makes mention of his ancestral connection with Charles Darwin, and also ofcourse his “privileged family background” of the British Upper Class! So, my claim that he “suffers” from cold obnoxious snobbishness is not totally unfounded..He also claims to be an entrepreneur…Maybe he has shares in Religare..who knows!!??
There is something else I should add. Back in the 1980s I contacted a phone in, and I talked about the RS Faith. Sometime later, I got a call from Pryor. He seemed dumbfounded that anyone (even me!) could publicly discuss RSSB on air (even in a free country!!??) Admitedly, I lost my rag with him, and put the phone down. But he continued to phone again, and again saying that I had no authority to talk about the subject. I did apologize to him several times but I got the distinct impression that this was clearly not enough….Fortunately, I got rid of him in the end.

Two interesting vids..one of them is of the actor Martin Shaw who claims that an entity shepherds the soul after death. He does not refer to it as his Masters Radiant Form…or refer to it as his Higher Self manifesting as his Master which would correspond with Faqir Chands ideas…or what the Sufis sometimes called the Man of Light..the psychopomp of the “dead”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mOI1hAbDuw
The other link is on Charan from David Lanes You Tube site. The last part of it deals with a test of faith….I include Lanes vid site..
http://www.youtube.com/user/neuralsurfer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mOI1hAbDuw
I remember Mrs. Wood (former UK rep) saying that most people do not experience anything in Sant Mat. So, I presume Brian Hines, and many others fall into this category…At the time of writing she is 97, and still helps the Satsang at Haynes Park especially in a sectarial sense. I wonder what she would have thought about this controversy about GS. I suspect she would just ignore it!! She is an advanced disciple of Sawan Singh, and is highly respected…I have met her on a number of occassions.

Robert,
How did Mrs. Wood get to be an advanced disciple of Sawan Singh? What does this title or description mean? Thanks Roger

Grandmaster tAo
for the record I believe humour albeit in satirical form was needed.
If not for humour I would go insane listening to such hypocracy.
The word ‘sucker’ was not initiated by myself, you will see you used it in your response to Robert higher up.
I feel humour is very much needed cos the concistency is farcical and I feel it’s best pointed out thru satire.

Robert, you asked if I ever experienced a positive “atmosphere” during my involvement with RSSB. Answer: of course.
In fact, I’m experiencing a positive atmosphere right now, typing at my laptop in my home. I experience such frequently, more of the time than not, because my basic nature is positivity (one of my wife’s favorite sayings about me is, “you don’t worry enough”).
When people have strong emotional feelings toward someone, like a guru, this will create an emotionally charged atmosphere. I’ve felt this in the presence of the guru, in much (or exactly) the same way I felt the atmosphere in the auditorium where my wife and I saw Barack Obama when he came to our area in 2008.

George,
fyi, this is exactly what I had said:
“all these supposed gurus and sants are fakes, shams, and con-artists. its the business of selling spirituality. and i don’t give a hot what he does for a living. if he props himself up as being a master or a “Sant”, then he is playing a role and misleading people. and you are a sucker if you believe that you need a master. my hope is that you can break out of that myth, and be free of it.”
Posted by: tAo | June 01, 2010 at 03:59 PM
——————————————–
and fyi, right after that, this is what YOU said:
“geez for folk to propound with such supposed clarity and certainty on the fakery of RS gurus and the suckers that follow them – despite also having sought out sages and wise men from tibet to sri lanka.
maybe you suckers are more confused than anyone else. you dont know your metaphysicals from your fundaments any more.
most of you been signed up to RS for decades, so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers. thats the truth of the matter, call me guru georgey ji.
Posted by: George | June 02, 2010 at 03:05 PM
——————————————–
so you are correct that i did initially use the word ‘sucker’.
but the key word in my comment was “if”.
i said: “you are a sucker IF you believe that you need a master.”
i was not saying that Robert IS a sucker… i was only merely saying that “IF” he (or anyone for thet matter) BELIEVES that they “NEED” a master, then they are a sucker.
i don’t know what Robert believes. thats for him to say. all i said (imo) was that, “you are a sucker if you believe that you need a master”. “you” could refer to anyone. that is not saying that Robert IS definitely a sucker. thats only saying that IF Robert BELIEVES that he NEEDS a master, then imo, he is a “sucker”. thats the difference.
you then came along and distorted the point of what i was saying, and you also implied that i am a hypocrite.
you misconstrued and misinterpreted the point that i was making. you also made a wrong assumpption and then deemed it hypocritical of me because i simply said that i feel that people who BELIEVE that they NEED a master are suckers.
you based that on YOUR assumption that i was once a “sucker” too. but that is not true at all, as i have explained in detail several times.
i was never a BELIEVER in the NEED for a master. but that was your premise, that i was once a “sucker” too. thats not true. i was never a “sucker” for RS. i simply checked out the RS meditation for awhile. i was never an RS guru and cult believer.
so therefore, you ARE correct that i did indeed “inititate” the word “sucker” (but not in the context that you have implied it and portrayed it).
but you are NOT correct when you say that my opinion (that those who BELIEVE that they NEED a master are suckers) makes me a HYPOCRITE. because for me to be a hypocrite, i would have had to have been a BELIEVER in the NEED for a master. but as i have said many times, i have never held that belief. i have never believed that a master is necessary, or that i needed a master. so i am not a hypocrite. and also i was not saying that Robert is a sucker. i was only saying that IF he BELIEVES that he NEEDS a master, then i consider such to be a sucker. and i do. thats the difference.
so your blanket assertion about me and others here, saying: “you been signed up to RS for decades, so at some time you were every bit as suckered, if everyone else is suckers”, is flat wrong. i was never “signed up” to anything, and i was also never a believer (a sucker).

you can think what you like george, and you can keep on spinning and distorting this as much as you want, but you will not alter the truth…
the truth that not everyone who tries out a spiritual teaching or spiritual practice, is a believer or a sucker.

amen, i think we’ve covered who are the suckers, now after all that semantic tom foolery as i understand it one would be a ‘sucker’ IF they believed the teachings of RS gurus from india, but one is not a sucker IF one believes the teachings of sages and wise men from tibet.
Is this correct?
\i sincerely hope i have it right so that this willful and heinous distortion on my part can come to an end.

one man’s sucker is another man’s lollipop.

anyways i wish you no anguish, if you cannot see the inconsistency, then fair enough, i dont suppose it makes any difference in the greater scheme of things.
Take it easy Mr. Mayugi. Wax on Wax off.

george, you write:
“after all that semantic tom foolery”
— there was no such “semantic tomfoolery” in my comments. i meant exactly what i said, but you have tried to alter and re-phrase what in said.
“as i understand it one would be a ‘sucker’ IF they believed the teachings of RS gurus from india”
— no. thats NOT what i said. you are putting a different spin on this. i did NOT say “the teachings of RS gurus”. i simply said: “IF he BELIEVES that he NEEDS a master”. [or anyone who BELIEVES that they NEED a MASTER] i did NOT say (or imply): “IF they believed the teachings of RS gurus from india,”
so you are again attempting to change my words and meaning.
i had originally said (quote): “if you believe that you need a master”. and i have not varied from that.
i did NOT say: “one would be a ‘sucker’ IF they believed the teachings of RS gurus from india”. thats your erroneous interpretation and misrepresentation. it is not what i said.
you are playing games and trying to disort my words and the meaning of my words and statement.
“but one is not a sucker IF one believes the teachings of sages and wise men from tibet.”
— i never said (or implied) that either. i have never said that i “believes the teachings of sages and wise men”.
simply practicing meditation, and believing “teachings of sages and wise men”, is not the same thing.
and this is not sematics. this is simply a difference, on the one hand, between doing meditation, and on the other hand “belief in the need for a master’.
i never said anything about my “believing in the teachings of sages and wise men from tibet”. so i would appreciate it if you would refrain from misrepresenting me.
“Is this correct?”
— NO, it is NOT correct. see my comments above.

I googled “William Pryor satsangi” and found an excerpt (chapter 12: India – an oasis in the desert) from his book “The survival of the coolest: an addiction memoir” – an interesting part of his memoirs of when he was a drug addict and visited India and was initiated by Maharaj Ji in 1967 at the age of 22.

Jen, imo, pryor is an obvious goon for RS, a suppressor of free speech, an RS guru sycophant, and a hypocrite. so i don’t think that he is “coolest” at all… regardless of what he did back in 1967.
and here is some fairly obvious evidence in support of that opinion:
http://dlane5.tripod.com/war.html

tAo, reading through the thread of the exchanges between William Pryor and David Lane in the link above, I came across Pryor’s mention that “The content of this email have been approved by the Dera.” He then wrote, in part:
“I was at the Dera last Christmas. Baba Ji spoke out about the Web with some force in December. He is concerned that RSSB should not be promoted, discussed or argued over on the Web. He talked about such activities trivialising the path and he does not want curiosity seekers turning up at satsang or the Dera – only real seekers. He says that people should only ask for initiation when they can resist it no longer.”
Hmmmm. Obviously the will of the guru changed at some point after that. See:
http://www.rssb.org/

DID GURINDER WRITE THE ANONYMOUS ESSAYS ON THE OFFICIAL RADHASOAMI WEBSITE?
I have a strong suspicion that Gurinder wrote the essays on the official RSSB website, and possibly the rest of the site. For example,A Spiritual Perspective gives references to computer terminology, and it is well-known that he has an interest in the subject. Indeed, he apparently used the expression of the need to “deprogramme the mind” in one of his discourses. Moreover, the word religare is used in One Spiritual Family but ofcourse not as a corporation but as a term meaning binding back to God.
Another indication of the real authorship of the above is that it can only be translated into Spanish. What about German, French, Russian, et cetera? The answer would suggest to me that this was Gurinders idea because ofcourse he lived, and worked in Spain for a time, and he may well have spoken Spanish to a certain degree..
Reference is made on the official website that Gurinder is a teacher as opposed to a Sant Satguru, and the following biodata may be of interest….
Baba Gurinder Singh was born in 1954. His family is from a traditional agricultural community of Punjab, India. He was named by his predecessor as spiritual head of RSSB in 1990. Based in Spain before accepting this position, he is now retired and lives off his own income. In keeping with the policy for all volunteers, he does not receive any money or honorarium from the Society. As with his predecessors, he has dedicated his life to serving the Society and guiding its members on the spiritual path.
..It is interesting here to note the emphasis of Gurinder living on his own income..But ofcourse, in Sant Mat the Satguru can break any of these rules..because after he, or indeed, she is the manifestation of God in spite of the potential negative consequences it could have on the faith of Satsangis…

As for William Pryor I recall a long time ago that he referred to Davd C Lane as “just an intellectual…”

Brian wrote “obiviously the will of the Guru changed at some point”
…Maybe these are the mysterious ways of these kind and soft hearted Masters to take back the marked souls back to the Lord.

Tara,Gurinder’s elder son is married to a Sindhi Girl,Is she Sunil Godhwani’s daughter???or do you know whose daughter she is???
Thanks

Sounds like the gurus make things up as they go along and our interpretation of their motivation is speculative.
What a fruitful business in the material sense though. The employees have not been coerced; they agree that working for no money is beneficial to them; the premises are all immaculate; the food is abundant;accomodation is free; the atmosphere is respectful, there are no unions; believers have a peaceful holiday away from the kids maybe with the hopes of having an affair with someone special from another country… oops! did I take it a little far?

Tara, sounds like Garry and Tara have truly been blessed, but surely they too are under cover masters, deserving of far more than they have received so far from God.

An interesting, and intelligent point made by Juan….
Brian wrote “obiviously the will of the Guru changed at some point”
…Maybe these are the mysterious ways of these kind and soft hearted Masters to take back the marked souls back to the Lord.
This is what could be going on. Why can t God, or the Master enjoy riches, expensive cars, and otherworldly things? Why can t He travel around in his jet,and perhaps use the Satsang funds for whatever reason? Why can t he behave as if he were lie some “crooked” businessman? In other words, why can t he behave as if were human..even making jokes at the expense of women? After God can do anything even if in the process it may wreck our belief in Him.
I am not saying the above is true ofcourse. It is all ofcourse a question of faith, and belief…and ultimately, inner experience if we get it!
In Indian mythology various gods do the most criminal things at times….and yet, they are still worshipped, and venerated..

A QUESTION.
I believe Gurinder has a large computer centre..the question is WHY? I would love to know…..!!

He uses it to document the initiates- names, dates, addresses. Must know that initiates only come to stay at the Dera otherwise it could be pandamonium. No doubt there is a great deal more to detail.

Why should there be “..a great deal more to detail.” Surely, he just wants basic information??
Furthermore, there is the claim that some of the computers are on the list of restricted technology? Did he get them from government contacts, or were they “smuggled” in by willing Satsangis somehow??

Apologies for the “eliding” in one of my most recent posts!

At about the time the revelations concerning GS, and Religare emerged in April 2010 here on site the UK Newsletter had one article about how to know whether a Master is perfect, or otherwise!! I am not sure whether this was by accident, or by design…but the following quote may be of interest..
“…It is a safe assumption to make that if the teachers way of life and particularly how he supports himself is at variance with the teachings, there is clearly a need to exercise great caution….
Also, there are quotes from Sawan Singh on how a Perfect Master should be like.
The newsletter article was by Narinder S Johal the Representative of the British Isles..

“Maybe these are the mysterious ways of these kind and soft hearted Masters to take back the marked souls back to the Lord.”
— well i doubt it.
“Why can’t God, or the Master enjoy riches, expensive cars, and other worldly things?”
— but what god or master?? and why does a god or a master need riches, expensive cars, and worldly things? doesn’t god already possess everything in the universe? what kind of god needs money and cars? answer: a very ordinary pseudo-god.
“Why can’t He travel around in his jet,and perhaps use the Satsang funds for whatever reason?”
— because its not his money. and why does he need a jet if he is god in human form?
“Why can’t he behave as if he were like some “crooked” businessman?”
— because its crooked.
“why can’t he behave as if were human..even making jokes at the expense of women?”
— because he isn’t human. he is a reptile. don’t you know that god is a serpent?
“God can do anything even if in the process it may wreck our belief in Him.”
— no, god can’t do “anything”. god is a stone that god cannot lift.
“It is all of course a question of faith, and belief…and ultimately, inner experience”
— faith and belief in what? in a god who needs money? in a master who is a reptile god? you must be joe king! and “inner experience”? well i have inner experiences every night when i dream, and i have an inner experience everyday when i eat a meal or read a novel.
“In Indian mythology various gods do the most criminal things at times….and yet, they are still worshipped, and venerated.”
— so? there are so many millions of superstitious people in the world who worship mythical gods. but those gods are myths, and the criminal things that the gods supposedly do, are also myths. people worship politicians too… and, as we all know, politicians do criminal things as well. so saying that hindus worship misbehaving gods, really doesn’t mean much of anything. it just shows the nature of religion and belief in myths.

Robert,
Why would you want to follow (trust) a master who does these things as you mentioned above?
1) enjoys riches, cars and worldly things
2) travels in a private jet and uses Satsang funds for whatever reason
3) behaves as if he were a crooked businessman
4) makes jokes at the expense of women
You suggest all this could be some sort of divine test of faith, a lesson designed for the good of satsangis. What is your rationale for this?
It seems to me the obvious is much more likely the case. These are the actual interests, orientations and attitudes of this man.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it most likely is a duck.

tAo, “because he isn’t human. he is a reptile” – a shapeshifter as well…?!

Do not laugh but I include the rest of the above quote! I hope Gugu, or rather GS has a sense of humour!!
“…great caution. However, a perfect Master not only mirrors the teachings but the teachings mirror the Master since the scriptures and verbal discourses are the outpourings of his personal experience and achievement. The Masters way of life is natural, transparent and unique to such an extent that it easily sets him apart from the rest…..(!)”
I also recall reading somewhere that GS hates being a spiritual teacher, and that he would much prefer being a businessman proper..

U r xtrmly wrng in ths case. U dnt knw the whole fact. U r jst doing 4 getng publicity. U r jst a prsn in a mob. Dnt try 2 misguide any1. U r abslutly wrng.

Tara, thanks for the information.

Lol,,,,,,,,
laughing hard,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
MY INVITATION!
i have an invitation to all of you who have posted comments on above article and esp the person who has written this article,,,,,
I am going to open a financial company named “Religare Opponents”. I am going to invest all my hard earned money [including my dad’s money, iff and only iff he will allow me]in this new company so called “Religare Opponents”. The person who has written this article can be CEO of this company [i think he has enough calibre as he has already went thru basics of Religare]..good,,rest of you can be employees,,,,,,,,,
now hurry up guys,,,,fix up your resume and send me ASAP. ,,,,u will get an interview letter,,,,,,we will talk on our loving company “Religare Opponents”.
This company needs guys like u ,,,,,,,,
PS: In your respective resume, please provide names of your family members [minimum 10],,,as later we need to transfer shares to their name,,,,,,
looking forward to get your resume
regards
harsachin

harsachin,
you aren’t funny, your’re an insulting ass and a jerk. because people here are not that stupid. but you certainly are.

Tara, yes i got it. thank you so much. i meant to tell you, but other matters came up that i had to attend to. i promise to get an email back to you sometime in the next day or so.

I have noticed that Gurinder Singh as a Sevadar has been removed from Wikipedia. Now, he is seen as having succeeded Charan Singh which ofcourse is factually correct. But does not mention the former as being a Satguru, or Sevadar.
I have noticed in the July UK newsletter that people are politely informed not to ask “inappropriate” questions (Religare, and other business interests perhaps!!?) of material nature during a Q and A with Gurinder!!
The following may be of interest though it is not directly connected with the above. It comes from the Yahoo news section….and is somewhat amusing especially in the light of Gurinders share trading activities….!
An Indian court has ruled that Hindu gods cannot deal in stocks and shares,
Two judges at the Bombay High Court on Friday rejected a petition from a private religious trust to open accounts in the names of five deities, including the revered elephant-headed god, Ganesha.
“Trading in shares on the stock market requires certain skills and expertise and to expect this from deities would not be proper,” judges P.B. Majumdar and Rajendra Sawant said, according to Indian newspapers.
The trust, owned by the former royal family of Sangli, in western Maharashtra state, of which Mumbai is the capital, brought the case after successfully securing income tax cards and savings accounts for the deities.
But National Securities Depository Limited (NDSL) rejected the trust’s application for permission to open trading accounts, arguing that it would be difficult to take action against the gods in the event of irregularities.
“Gods and goddesses are meant to be worshipped in temples, not dragged into commercial activities like share trading,” the judges said.
Ganesha, also known as Lord Ganpati, is one of the most popular and well-known gods of the Hindu pantheon and is worshipped widely in Mumbai and Maharashtra.

Yes, i can see,
“Gods and goddesses are meant to be worshipped in temples, not dragged into commercial activities like share trading,” the judges said.”
–However, a GIHF could engage in commercial activities like share trading.

The present Master Gurinder Singh has firmed up the Radhasoami Beas organization worldwide. He has centralized the appointment of Satsang leaders (the guru personally approves each appointee) and has increased the number of satsangis involved in various seva(free service) projects.
The credit for the smooth operations of the movement in the United States goes entirely to Gurinder Singh who has improved the infrastructure of the Radhasoami organization. He was responsible for fixing an age limit of 25 for initiation seekers. He has revamped the printed initiation instructions. He overlooks the editing of local newsletters and building of new Radhasoami centers across the globe. Each year he travels extensively to countries outside India, to spread the message of the Radhasoami movement. This has probably resulted in making the Radhasoami Satsang Beas as being the most organized and popular Radhasoami groups of all.
The ashram:
The ashram at Beas is a picture of calm and beauty. It has guestrooms where people, who are interested in taking initiation into the sect, can come and stay. At the ashram is present a 300-bed hospital, which provides free medical care to both members of the Radhasoami movement as well as non-members and the needy.
Maharaj Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital:
The MSS Charitable hospital is a vast complex near the Dera, at Beas, on the Grant Trunk Road between Amritsar and Jallandhar. A team of highly qualified and experienced doctors mans this 35-acre hospital, built at a cost of nearly Rs 40 million. Both, the para-medical staff, and other skilled and unskilled employees are housed in a well laid-out residential colony planned to provide all necessary amenities. Visiting doctors, both Indian and foreign, who serve at the hospital for short periods, are also provided with residential accommodation.
The hospital complex also encompasses a serai(inn) for the free accommodation of relatives and dependants accompanying the patients. The serai has a capacity to accommodate 450 people.
One of the special features of the hospital is its annual eye camp, the first of which was organized in 1965. The purpose of this is to give medical aid to people suffering from eye-ailments, particularly surgical removal of cataracts from the eye.
Now ask yourself….is having money “evil”?
It depends on who has it I guess.
Now stop the negativity against a man who is greater than a man. One must have capital to work on this plane of existence…esp. when one is giving so much and asks nothing…
Master’s children are not asked to give ANYTHNG…
RS is NOT the Catholic church…it’s not a religion..
READ: Path of the Masters and Living meditation: http://www.radhasoamisatsangbeas.com
You are truly focused on the wrong thing and you are allowing the Negative Energy to control you.
RS

“Now ask yourself….is having money “evil?”
–Money is money. How do you or RSSB define evil?
“Now stop the negativity against a man who is greater than a man.”
–What does a man have to do to become greater than a man? Is this ‘greater’ man greater than women? In addition, what is ‘negativity’ and how does RSSB define negativity?
” RS is NOT the Catholic church…it’s not a religion..”
–Not being the Catholic church, means something is wrong with the Catholic church? What’s wrong with RSSB being a religion? I don’t see a problem with RSSB being a religion.
Hospitals and ashrams where people can receive help in various ways is very nice. Has this Gurinder person built a building where one can go to reach the Sach Kan spiritual place or plane? A few persons are looking for that spiritual salvation with the Lord or God. Nothing more. So what has Gurinder specifically done in that area alone? Don’t forget, he is greater than a man.

How standards have changed. What Gurinder is doing would have been unthinkable if Charan had been around. If somone falsely accused the latter of the sort of things the former was upto he would have regarded it as libel, and hence, actionable…and out of step with the real Sant Mat ideals!!!

CHECKING OUT CHARITY STATUS?
In Britain we have the Charity Commision. However,I have not found as yet an Indian couterpart…assuming something like it exists..! Here is the link to RSSB in Haynes Park which could be examined…
http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/SHOWCHARITY/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1013061&SubsidiaryNumber=0
It would interesting be see what other charity reports have to say about RSSB in other countries such as the USA, and Cana
da. May be BH might like to do some research?

kanchan
pls do’nt talk all these kinds of shit.he is our god nobody has right to say anything about him untill and unless u all do’nt know about him its better not to give give ur useless comments.

u all do’nt leave god also.who is taking care of everybody u all r interested in his personal things.u all do’nt see wht he is not doing for for us spiritually.this shows how much trust u all have.first see urself then piont out babaji.

Dear all
Note that the land of the “local satsang centers” purchased by poor local satsangis by collecting money should be only registered in favor of RSSB.
Imagine the wealth RSSB has created by having land in almost all the villages of India donated by ignorant poor satsangis to get a pass for their not seen by anyone afterdeath life.
I know it is not illegal but IS IT MORAL

“to get a pass for their not seen by anyone afterdeath life.”
–what are you saying?

roger, its simple… he is saying that a supposed life after death, is one that has not yet been seen (proven to exist).
so the poor are giving their rupees and their land to the master in hopes that the master will bless them in their afterlife, or a better life after death.

Another long wet summer but finally in-house gossip reaches even those of us hovering on the RSSB periphery. So, bit late in the day but seeking some clarity re. RSSB Trust & Religare/Fortis:
1. Issue of transparency/disclosure: In one comment on your website it is said that when asking RSSB Dera management about seva donations/funding, that satsangis were asked to leave the Dera. Is that correct? If so, is simply asking about financial dealings, including evidence/auditing of monetary donations, considered inappropriate?
2. Has the current Master ever offered to make public – given potential conflict of interest – his personal &/or family financial affairs including RSSB related expenses? Has any national sangat – ie: UK Sangat – ever requested such information be made public?
3. Newspaper reports indicate a number of legal disputes involving RSSB and property/land acquisitions &/or sales at Dera & Delhi. (16 Jul 2009 … RSSB HAS NOT ONLY ENCROACHED LAND IN VARIOUS PARTS OF INDIA INCLUDING LAND AT BHATI MINES DELHI BUT ALSO ENCROACHED ON LIVES OF HUMAN BEINGS http://www.expressindia.com/latestnews/Decks…to…/345646.) Are there other outstanding legal disputes relating to property/land acquisitions &/or sales in India, or elsewhere? Are such disputes now commonplace?
4. It is noted on http://www.watchoutinvestors.com that Fortis Securities Ltd, renamed Religare Securities Ltd, was debarred/restrained from dealing on a sequence of occasions from 2005 to 2009 for alleged violations including creating artificial markets, forcing price rises, making applications in fictitious names, alleged violations of code of conduct of stock brokers etc. Are these the only occasions upon which Religare/Fortis are known to have been debarred/restrained from dealing?
5. Reference document – http://www.sebi.gov.in/dp/fortisdraft.pdf – Draft Letter of Offer, 1April 2009, Fortis, Fortis Healthcare Limited. Attention drawn to ‘Internal Risk Factors’, pp vii-xii, noted that criminal proceedings cited as pending against certain Directors, one of whom is also a Promoter. Also, noted pp. 169-192, details of some 46 companies listed as Promoter Group. These 46 companies offer range of services from finance, holistic healthcare, pharmaceuticals, general import/export, property/real estate, 2 wheeler supplies/repairs, automobile sales, hotel/restaurant/resort management, township development, commercial/domestic building works, commercial forestry/farming/poultry, commercial vegetable/fruit production, arts, soccer promotion, aviation/freight/cargo/passenger services, media, and etc. Evidence of considerable commonality across shareholders/directors of these 46 companies. Are most/all of those named RSSB initiates? Are these companies known to have been routinely contracted to undertake work/services for RSSB Trust in India &/or elsewhere?
6. And, final query: Can someone provide a conclusive answer to question asked by Arjun on your blog: ‘Who funded Religare (Est 2006) when Ranbaxy itself was in debt?’ Arjun says, ‘the answer to that may have a link to Religare’s shareholding pattern.’ Currently shareholding pattern is heavily weighted toward Guru’s young sons who, overnight it appears, became major shareholders/rupee billionaires. Is it suggested that their recent shareholdings constitute a form of ‘reward/repayment’ for the funding of Religare back in 2006? If so, was the source of such funding RSSB Trust funds (voluntary donations) since Ranbaxy was in debt? And, would it be true to say that there was only one person who could have authorised such a funding stream?
Whatever the truth of so-called connections/dealings between RSSB Trust & Religare/Fortis et al the old adage rings out loud & clear: There is no smoke without fire.
As such, there is a certain expectation that – in wishing to maintain integrity – a responsible organisation would now do its utmost to reassure members that there has not been any ‘misappropriation of funds’ – given freely & voluntarily to a charitable organisation – for private gain. For, lest there be any doubt, it is the case that regardless of any status ascribed to those involved in such transactions that such actions – in & of themselves – would be generally deemed both highly immoral, given the charitable/voluntary status of the funding stream and, by common definition, illegal.
So, for both the sake of transparency & what may be the very future of RSSB Trust, perhaps the time has come for (a) national sangat officers to put aside personal concerns as to their seva boons & positioning in the hierarchy and request specific clarification & transparency in all RSSB Trust dealings. And (b), in the absence of an open offer of full disclosure, for the Guru – who, given a fair reading of his character would likely log-on to sites such as this during his sojourn in the spheres – to now raise his sights above the parapet of said spheres and, in doing so, seek to preserve in tact the spiritual legacy entrusted to us all, Guru & Shishya alike, by Swami Ji.
Radha Soami.

It’s UK National Sangat weekend. Perhaps 1/2 key members of the UK Sangat will have the grace to digest the above comment by Tara.
Thank you for the clarification in the above comment, Tara. Your comments give a valuable insight into the sort of organisation which RSSB Trust has become since the current Guru took the helm.
Since any organisation is said to reflect the inspiration, call it the capacity, of its’ leadership so RSSB now reflects the inspiration, the capacity, of the Guru.
Us seekers, though, we tend to get caught up in the mystery of the spiritual moment and forget that Guru – just like any other seeker – operates only according to his capacity.
And, in this respect, RSSB seekers romance about the current Master of Beas even though it is self-evident that where He feels most at home – most comfortable – is most definitely within the auspices of the spheres.
The current Master displays quite remarkable powers of mental concentration. He has acquired many of the talents/skills – call them what you like – that accompany such exceptional powers. And, indeed, in this regard He has become a real adept for which He deserves considerable respect.
But, putting aside the romancing of this stone, what do we get when we turn it over?
Well, under the current Guru’s tutelage – under the stone – RSSB never really had any chance of surviving, or evolving, or progressing, or developing, how ever you want to describe it, as a primarily spiritual way or endeavour without all the entrapments that go with organised religiosity. How could it? What manifests under the Guru’s tutelage lies simply within the remit of the Guru’s capacity.
So sadly, sooner than hoped, out of the soft & gentle what we’ve got is the evolution of a real cookie-monster of an organisation; constantly gorging & enlarging, gobbling up wherever it can gain a toe-hold, and just plain greedy for survival within this remit of the spheres.
RSSB is now an organisation – regardless of ascribed status of its leader – which even the Guru struggles to contain. And, should the person of the Guru go, try and make His escape, then there are now so many other vested interests, other agendas, that this cookie-monster of an organisation would simply transmute into a ‘tradition’. Old Max Weber described the process perfectly.
Perhaps this was just our lesson – RSSB Guru & Shishya alike – in the inherent danger of becoming too at-home, too comfortable, too adept in the play of the spheres. So, the way forward? Back to basics. Back to Swami Ji, to Surat Shabd yoga, get over the poetic imagery & with liberation on the crest of the Shabd, that vital life force, come to realise the wisdom contained within the simplicity & directness of expression of Ramana and Nisargadatta.
Radha Soami

S. Clarity, thanks for the thoughtful, interesting, and well written comment. You’ve done a good job of capturing the essence and spirit of the “new” RSSB, which indeed has a very different vibe from the organization I first came in contact with in 1970.

An Odd Discussion Group
Some of the material below about GS may well be libellous. However, it is left to the judgement to readers on this site!!
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/discussion/Radha_Soami_Satsang_Beas

Tara,
No, I did not go through the entire link concerning the charity status of the RSSB in the UK. However, I was interested in your comments which are worth reading as usual..

Tara,
Yes, a clever play on the use of words on the part of GS, and his associates. I think what you are saying is probably correct.

CSR at Religare Enterprises?
http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=304540548297
Some more data in connection with the development of Religare
http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=304540548297&start=0&hash=c9b80fa6a917daaae715b4b3c71363cb
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Religare-Technologies/10150094321945118
It is clear that Gurinder (and his business team) has been a busy bee “behind the scenes” at Religare!! How this fits together with Sant Mat is ofcourse another matter!!

Matthew 25:40.
From Tara’s account above: ” We’re a spiritual mission, not a charitable one… ”

Arjun,
You are an investment banker.. where? I am a corporate banker who has handled the Ranbaxy account in the past.
Stop kidding and share some facts. Also be sure if your ‘close aides’ told you the facts or was it ‘disgruntled employees’.
Mid to senior level employees! I meet the Head of Treasury and Head of Finance of Religare almost every month. They never hint about it.
Another myth you are perpetuating is that Ranbaxy before its sale was under debts. This tells me that you are no investment banker. You just can not be.
Ranbaxy was a hugely cash surplus company. Always. When Ramachandran was the CFO I was literally hounded to give them good rates on term deposits. They were always in and out of Term Deposits and Liquid Funds. ‘Cash’ holdings were to the extent of Rs 25 billion at times.
Let me quote two current examples with you.
To give you an idea of current cash flows their hospital Escorts Fortis (just one hospital in Delhi) conducted 7000 open heart + angioplasty surgeries in one year. That’s Rs 2.1 billion worth of surgery @ Rs 300,000 per procedure. Do they need murky deals to generate cash?
In the Parkway Hospital deal in Singapore that Fortis lost to Khazanah of Malaysia they walked away with Rs 3.5 billion approx of profit on selling their stake 20%.
I am privy to information on Religare as well that I can not share due to professional reasons. All information I quote is available in public domain.
Cash was never a problem with Ranbaxy or their current companies. Let us talk facts and not nonsense.
They have the highest turnover rate in the industry? What % number is that. Higher than IT / BPO industry. ICICI Bank operates at a rate closer to 16-18% turnover in good times (when the jobs market is good). What is it for Religare? All Indian companies suffer from this problem. Rare would be the company that has a large workforce and is in single digit % turnover range.
Don’t throw statements around. Back up with facts. Start a blog if you want to share your conspiracy theories.
PS: Don’t worry about ‘racist’ comments here. The comments come from people whose collective actions brought the global banking system down on its knees. Few countries were left standing amidst the ruins. Need I say more.

From Tara’s account above: ” We’re a spiritual mission, not a charitable one… ”
Than lets take out the ‘we’.
I’m a spiritual mission not a charitable..(hmmmm)
Reminds me of ‘what if god was one of us…all alone at the phone..try to make his way back home….’

SKat, frankly, you’re full of crap.
SKat wrote: “Don’t worry about ‘racist’ comments here. The comments come from people whose collective actions brought the global banking system down on its knees.”
You say that the “collective actions” of the commenters on this blog “brought the global banking system down on its knees” ???
What? are you serious? actually, more like insane.
I’d say that you are out of your friggin mind… and, you are a fraud as well.
This one statement alone shows how out of touch with the facts and reality you are. this one statement alone discredits you and your entire comment.
You obviously have no understanding whatsoever of the real facts, players, and actions related to the global financial take-over – aka the (now $ 28 trillion dollar) “banker-bailout” scam.
Some people here are not as stupid as you seem to think.
You are a joke…. a rather bad joke. so go crawl back down in whatever lame-brain hole you crawled out of.

Can someone explain this:
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/deal-lands-gmada-in-rs-119-crore-loss/330670/
It says that the land exchange deal between RSSB and GMADA goes with great loss for GMADA but they don’t seem to care….strange.
And as a second point:
Why the strange withdrawing from charitable donations? Does he need more money? Are things not so well? Do we awake one day to find Gurinder gone and a RSSB in deep debt? It is strange because he knows that this does not look good. What is more important than looking good?

But still some stuff is unclear in my mind. I read that Gurinder is a big shareholder with his sons but he is not the director. So is there really a mix of spiritual and financial leadership? Is Gurinder really involved in decision making or does he just get the prospects like all shareholders?
And second I read that they are all family. Isn’t it possible that the uncles gave the shares to Gurinder and his sons? It is not clear that he bought them. if he didn’t buy them than there is also no question that he would have used RSSB money.
If he just got the shares that would also explain why he is rich now while he was not rich before he became the guru.
Just asking…

After reading most of the post on this article again I conclude that the question is that Religare got money in the period 2006 to 2008 before Ranbaxy shares where sold to the Japanese in 2008 but SKat clames that Ranbaxy was never short of cash and that Ranbaxy funded Religare in these days. However Tara pointed out that Ranbaxy did not have the cash because they had to sell shares to get the cash in 2008.
From the article I conclude that Ranbaxy was involved in fraudulous FDA approval, meaning that they put medication on the market that was not properly tested and could have caused huge damage.
Together with the statements on Indian moral it is likely that money has been going from RSSB to Religare and perhaps still does. However they do try to cover it up nicely.

Another question. RSSB is doing very well, there is little question about that is there? Now why do people suddenly donate so much to RSSB? Even if Gurinder is an excellent business man (what I doubt) he does not raise the money out of my pocket. There is not much more advertisement for donating or anything. It seems more likely people where now and then willing to donate to Charan than to Gurinder.
Is it possible that the money from Religare flows the other direction too? Do they indeed have cross holdings to put money save in religious investments in RSSB? No tax to pay perhaps? It would explain a lot.
It might even be possible that Religare is not doing so well and that more donations are needed. In my opinion it is likely that a middle class business man became the head of the huge RSSB. He then was manipulated by the Sing family to help out with the RSSB money. The screwed business man from these family companies paid back with shares and big cars and the guru is left with the feeling that he is a big business man. It does seem more likely that clever experienced man are behind all this than it seems likely that a not so very successful man from spain did think of all this. Only if you don’t buy the god in man thing of cause.

Readers maybe interested to know that the Duke of York visited Religare….
http://www.ukti.gov.uk/uktihome/localisation/109196.html
It is claimed that Prince Charles had secret meetings with Charan Singh. If I recall rightly the latter claimed that the former was not meant to be initiated in this birth!!
It also appears that Charles may have had a secret meeting when Gurinder was in Birmingham in 1991. In light of the revelations concerning Religare I doubt whether such a rendez-vous has ever continued……..

Hi Tara,
I’ve read your post and am still thinking about it. I think Gurinder will start to raise more donations and he will make more Satsangi’s do sewa. At least that is what he did the past years and it is very obvious if you only seldom visit the Satsangs like I did. I witnessed the change over a period of 5 to 6 years and saw all these little money collection boxes during his last visit that where never there before. Also there was more pushing to donate in the newspaper than before. Personally I witnessed a plead to work in our local building that was never done so explicit before. Things are changing and I guess more Satsangi’s will be excommunicated like Brian.
RSSB will be run like a business because that is his way. If we don’t like it we have to leave.
Anyway I discovered that wine can help me relax in ways that I’ve never thought before 🙂

I’m still wondering if I will eat the raviloli today or the susi wang. Both are in cheap cans but taste so very gooooood 🙂

The people hosting this website appear to do nothing, but, create negativity. Jusr remember even when Jesus Christ was alive, there were believers and non-believers.
They nearly beat him to death and hung him on a cross, still 2000 years on people believe in him and will continue to do so, no matter how much negativity you preach on this website.
All the Sikh Gurus were tortured and killed, they are still worshipped today, so even if you speak ill of RadhaSwamy Gurus, it will do nothing, it will only strengthen the resolve of the worshipper.
You on the other hand are creating sin and a karma that will be hard to forgive, when you will rot in hell fire then you will remember hese words, the curse of Gods will finish you, you will regret every word that you have written against any master or teacher or conveyor of the truth.
Rot in Hell.

Blue Sky (Grey Cloud),
You are hanging out with a rough crowd…these gods who curse people and condemn them to hell fire.
I suggest you get some new friends.

Blue Sky,
don’t worry about others, because the supreme godhead Shri Shri Radha Krsna is very merciful to those who are sincere and seeking the truth.
just worry about yourself and your own hypocrisy, and how long you will remain lost in maya until you finally surrender.
for it is indeed demonic of you to tell others to “rot in hell”, instead of demonstrating humility and encouraging love of God.
simply chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and become imbued with trancendental bliss, beyond the reach of the modes of material nature.
see:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2009/01/rssb-guru-does-karaoke-he-must-be-god?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2013488a9660e970c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2013488a9660e970c

Any Explanation from Anyone…?
This is the third, and probably last time I will make in connection with the google links which indirectly go to my thoughts, and visions blog site? The words Gurinder Singh Blog again appear on my two entries on Religare. The question is why.. apart from some kind of computer “error”..or could this be a way in which Gurinder “tacitly endorses” Part Two notably of my interpretation of the present Satguruship, and Religare affair to help wavering Satsangis, and seekers to come to terms with the situation? Moroever, Shivinder Singh Blog also appears after one of the self-same entries on google.See google link below..
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=religare+gurinder&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

@Blue cross-u r absolutely true..people who criticize him will not find place even in hell..whereas our faith in him will increase 4 times more no matter what they do..

Tara,
Thank you for your response. But I still find it a little odd….but I will not bring up the subject again!

Well rook me a long time thinking to realize the obvious that everyone might already know.
Where does the money come from was my question because I don’t see a lot of satsangi’s donate so much in my presence.
Than it occured to me. A lot of the satsangi’s are old. A lot of satsangi’s are alienated from their relatives. So they dy lonely and angry at society and not understood by family. So where does the money go after their dead? Yes RSSB. So they prosper from the corpses that they have isolated from the herd. Just like other predators.

Mr. Blue sky please can u find the difference between RSSB Gurus and Hon’ble Sikh Gurus. Does RSSB allows people to go to Gurudwaras or temples to the persons go to Beas?. U cant state of other beliefs whereas RSSB criticise badly to Sanatan Parampara wihtout having its knowledge. U can see there.

yes please

Hello all
First of all i will appreciate u people that u all have devoted so much time in gathering all the information and yes undoubtedly you are doing great job as to show the right thing and Tara especially you are doing marvelous effort and Brian Tao & Robert thumbs up man. But i am having certain questions for you people.
on the material front you people are stating absolutely good but what about those experiences which we people have in meditation its not good i am sharing with you on net but because these things are going worse so i’m sharing . As my close uncle who was about to die and was initiated by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji he told that my master has come and i’m leaving he just died after saying this. My Another uncle who told us the exact time when he was dying as He told me personally that ” Okay son the time has come and i will be leaving by 7 in morning ” and surprisingly he just passed exactly at 7 AM. Another one my close friend’s father got an heart attack and when he was taking his father to hospital in his car he said to him ” SON I’M LEAVING BABAJI IS HERE ” what are these things and not just one there are many similar stories … How these things happens just i want to ask all of you as you people have such a good knowledge about santmat. Just forget for others just explain why i get some of my happenings in advance and babaji is used to come in my dreams and whatever is guided by him gets true. Why my mother got a dream of Maharaj Charan Singh ji that wait for initiation and i was born . Mother got a dream that she is vising to a new place and we got a new home to LIVE. How these things just accidently or incidently happened in my life ,,, i dont know but you people are right at your own place waiting for your comments and i will share more personal incidents so that i can also feel the same as u people are feeling..
Regards
Radha Soami

i’m surprised there is no reply after so many days, what happened, are there no frequent visitors now? or the blog has been shut down

DAS SA, all is normal on this blog. I’m alive and blogging, and the blog is up and running.
Comments on posts aren’t highly related to blog visitors. This here Church of the Churchless averages about 700 page views a day, quite consistently, though traffic goes up and down.. Some days there are more comments, some days less. That’s life: change.

then why there is no reply about my question which i posted on January 21, 2011 at 07:12 AM

DAS SA,
in as much as you mentioned my name in the comment you posted on Jan. 21 at 07:12 am, i will say this: i checked over your entire comment, and there was not one single question mark (?) therein. fyi, if you were/are asking a question, then you would be wise to use proper punctuation marks. otherwise, how is anyone to know that you are asking a question??
you did say this:
“what are these things and not just one there are many similar stories … How these things happens just i want to ask all of you as you people have such a good knowledge about santmat.”
— well how would i know what your stories mean?? and i have no idea as to whether or not they are actually true. and even if those people had those experiences, how are we to know that they were not imaginary?? humans imagine all sorts of things that are not what they appear to be.
“just explain why i get some of my happenings in advance and babaji is used to come in my dreams and whatever is guided by him gets true.”
— the mind and the imagination manifests in all sorts of ways. but who is to say that there any coincidence.
“Why my mother got a dream of Maharaj Charan Singh ji that wait for initiation and i was born.”
— how would i know what your mother dreamed, or what that has to do with anything else??
“How these things just accidently or incidently happened in my life”
— they just happened. shit happens. and it doesn’t necessarily indicate anything profound.
“i will share more personal incidents so that i can also feel the same as u people are feeling.”
— why do you want to feel what others are feeling?? why don’t you just be yourself, and think (and feel) for your own self. who cares what other people feel? don’t follow after other people… be yourself. don’t try to be like other people. thats a mistake.

Re: Mrs. Wood(advanced disciple of Sawan)
I once met Donny Kelly and her husband Charles.
Donna was an ‘advanced’ disciple of Sawan.
The whole 9 yards internally.
Kirpal would visit her here in the USA.
I gave a letter to Charles to give to her
when Ajaib Singh was visiting her in advanced age.
She responded by saying she did not know if
Thakar Singh, Ajaib Singh, or Darshan Singh
were successors to Kirpal, or if they all
were.
Regarded as the most advanced living disciple of Sawan, even by Kirpal, she did not know who the real master was.
She said basically we mere mortals have no way of knowing.
I passed this letter to David Lane about 15 years ago.
People don’t know it, but her husband Charles was an Agra initiate and I once saw his photo in one of Maheswari’s books.

“Mike Williams”
I am not sure if we are talking about the same Mrs Wood. The Mrs Wood I knew was Flora Wood, or Chip as she was commonly called by Beas Satsangis. She was the Representative of the UK for many years.
However, I do remember her telling me that Kirpal Singh “..wanted the dera”.

Incidently, in connection with Mrs. Wood… her husband was called Ron, or Ronald Wood…She also wrote a book entitled In Search of the Way which included her meeting, and initiation with Sawan Singh.

Dear TAo
its good to see your answer. But my dear brother before making a statement please check where i mentioned your name after that line its written that i have questions for you.. Any ways there is no point that we point out each others grammar mistakes. But it seems its a one sided opinion blog you people are not ready to accept what i tried to say .. as far as my experiences are concerned they were very much true and Brother do not make your blog biased . We should take this to a healthy discussion.
Regards

Greetings Das Sa:
Having been to India many times I feel I can with confidence state that Indian and Western folks employ different styles of communication.
For example, take the word “truth”. In the West that word summons up the image of maybe Einstein with a piece of chalk standing in front of a blackboard doing calculations, or maybe scientists in lab coats running diagnostic tests to discover the truth. In matters of Spirituality the Western notion of “truth” becomes almost inapplicable, because truth is seen as an objective thing that is falsifiable, not a subjective experience that is NOT falsifiable. Nor do stories (anecdotes) qualify. Stories can be suggestive of truth, but not conclusive, not evidence.
In India such hard distinctions are not (conversationally) employed! India, bless her heart, is more fee-flowing and devotional; Spiritual *truth* is saddled inside the heart of India rather than outside in a mathematical formula.
Again, stories, in the West, are not taken as “evidence” of anything….some are only suggestive of some possibility.

Apologies!!I confused Donny Kelly with Mrs Wood!! I do not always read posts properly.

by this what is to be assumed there is no ‘GOD’

non sense post!

I have no idea what exactly is going on here. But yeah from the initial posts i could find out that the post is against the DHILLON family and its share in RELIGARE.
So for your kindest of information, SPIRITUALITY in itself is considered as the greatest charity on earth. So they completely deserve what they have.
A post from a 16 yr old**

This is especially for TARA,though she will reject it and will respond back in TAO’s tone,
But then it doesn’t matter to me at all.
The following is a true story about a japanese dog named Hachicko. Hachiko lived in Tokyo in the 1930’s .He was owned by a professor Ueno, who caught the train every morning to go to the University. Every afternoon, Hachiko would be on the Shibuyu train platform waiting for his master to return. And this went on for many years. Only, one day, the professor suffered a stroke at the university and died instantly. He didn’t return on the train. The professor’s house was sold, and Hachiko was taken to a new home to live with a new family. But every afternoon Hachiko would find his way to the old railway platform, and there he waited for his master – every day, every afternoon, for ten years. At first, young boys would laugh and taunt the dog, but Hachicko remained steadfast. Later, people would bring him food. But he never abondoned his post. When his master would not appear, he would walk off alone. But the next day, he was patiently waiting again. They say that passers-by would burst into tears seeing his devotion, his faithfulness and his loyalty. One day he was found dead at the Shibuyu Station. He died waiting for his master.
If dogs can have this focus, this steadfastness, then the question a disciple might ask is, “Where am I waiting? Where can I find the Love that will set me free?” For a follower of the path of the saints, the answer is simple. Love, hope and truth lie at the eye centre. That is where the Master will appear. That is where the master has asked us to wait for him: to wait gladly, contentedly and with faith.
This spiritual practice will require our courage, our persistence and an open heart. We are to do our meditation gladly, steadfastly and with all the courage we can muster. Still, that will not be sufficient. In the end we must trust in His mercy. At last, we will know our true condition and our total reliance on the Master’s grace.

mla wrote: “the question a disciple might ask is, “Where am I waiting? Where can I find the Love that will set me free?”
(a) i am not a “disciple”.
(b) i am not “waiting”.
(c) i don’t need to “find the love”
(d) and i don’t need to be “set free”.
mla wrote: “For a follower of the path of the saints”
— i’m not “a follower of the path of the saints”.
mla wrote: “the answer is simple.”
— i’m not looking for any “answer”.
mla wrote: “Love, hope and truth lie at the eye centre.”
— no, not for me.
mla wrote: “That is where the Master will appear.”
— only a slave needs a master. a sovereign man or woman has no master.
mla wrote: “That is where the master has asked us to wait for him”
— the “master” idea is a lie. only weak-minded fools wait and bow to this “master” lie.
“to wait gladly, contentedly and with faith.”
— don’t waste your life waiting for a lie.
mla wrote: “We are to do our meditation gladly”
— the people of the earth are waking up. they don’t want these lies and false beliefs anymore.
mla wrote: “we must trust in His mercy.”
— the age of blind “trust” is over. people are not buying that belief in lies anymore. the deceptions are becoming exposed. and they will continue to disintegrate and crumble. there is no “mercy” from liars and frauds. only a fool hopes for “mercy”.
mla wrote: “our total reliance on the Master’s grace.”
— your so-called “master” is a total lie and a fraud… and a despicable elitist vampire who sucks off the sweat and blood of the poor and the gullible.

Tao you will never grow up,
but then its natural and ordinary,
well it doesn’t mean that if you are not able to see radiant form inside, it doesn’t exist,
if you are not bestowed with his grace,doesn’t mean that no one else has been bestowed with his grace,
I now understand you,
you are a sick,who chant hare rama hare krishna,
you are so much into illusionary worship,
anyways,with my past experience with you,
i have come to know you,that you are just full of EGO,hatred and lot of stupidity.
ok you no need master,
well there was a quote which said,
you need to two to come in this world,
and four to move out of this world,
you are always dependant,so drop you ego.
Master shows the way,and if a blind and deaf person like you,couldnt find the way,do not blame the master,
if you are not happy with your life,you cannot blame your parents,
like that if you are not able to follow the path,
you cannot blame the master.
May be inner experience may not work for me,
but then it work for many many other,
but then you keep on chanting,
hare krishna krishna krishna…
its a normal phenomena,demi god and idol lovers never like the reality of living masters,
because you people haunt over the dead ones.

MLA,
i am much older and much more mature and experienced than you.
your so-called “radiant form” is a myth.
i have no need for “grace”. that is an illusion.
i do not “chant hare rama hare krishna”.
i am not into any sort of worship.
the ego, hatred, and stupidity that you see, is nothing but a projection of your own ego, hatred, and stupidity.
i am not “dependant” on any others. and ego is actually a good thing.
i see and hear better than most.
i don’t need to “find the way”, since the way is inclusive of all things.
i don’t “blame the master”, because there is no master.
i don’t need to “follow the path”.
i have had far more “inner experience” than you know.
i never “chant hare krishna krishna krishna”
i am not into demi gods, nor am i a lover of idols.
i also have no use for supposed “living masters”.
you are haunted by the dead.

Tao You much older than,only in terms of age,but not in wisdom,
hmm i doubt your maturity,
and i do not know your experience,hence do not understand it.
Radiant form is a myth for you,
but not for me.
and who said grace is for you,grace is only for who receives it,but not for who rejects it.
but through few of your post it seems like your hare krishna lover.
as per your understanding,you can never worship.as you do not have that sort of understanding.
the projection can also your own reflection.
You are always dependent like anyother,no matter if you accept it or not,but you are always dependent.
a person who says ego is a good thing,call himself mature,experienced..a complete contradiction in your own messages.
you do not hear neither see better than others,perhaps here you are too weak.
yes for you there is no master.bad luck.
what you had is ,may be an experience,but not inner experience.
You can not have inner experience,the way you have understood and the way you are following,without much maturity,understanding and without much knowledge,
everytime posting here,that i have more knowledge,more experience would not suffice the purpose neither will change the truth.
You still has a long way to go,untill that time,have your wine,whisky,meat and hot babes.
yes for you there is no use of living master,
but not for everyone.
i m not haunted tao,its you.

“An awareness at times of being “possessed”.
quote Searle
Stillness of the mind is useless and temporal.
See through the illusion of the self
and it matters not how fast the mind travels.
The self can only produce action
when it is believed in.
Possession does indeed exist. Especially
in the Kirpal based groups.
There are other groups where possession
is the end goal, such as the Masons.
The Masons worship Lucifer by name.
But, Radhasoamis are unaware of what they
are possessed by, tinking it to
be a positive power.
Compare the power of Ramana Maharshi to
the possession of a Radhasoami.
The gradual progression into reality is a delusion. It is always instant.

The Gordian Knot was not untied,
it was sliced through by a sword.
All at once.
The mind cannot be unraveled little
by little. Any force used, reinforces
the idea one is fighting a real self.
One simply whitewashes the self
and sublimates its stature.
But, all the hate and anger of
the mind is repressed.
Only by seeing directly, can one
realize the self does not exist.
Does one use a cannon to remove the
self, or does one chase the self
away with a broomstick ?
One is either totally THERE, or
one is totally not there.
There are no midpoints.
Can you find the WHO, that is thinking
YOUR thoughts ?

WHO is there to be possessed?
WHO is there to be harassed on the blog?
Mike, who is the YOU who felt harrassed by some of my comments on the blog?
There is either somebody there or not.
You can’t dig with both feet! [using a shovel]
Marina

Brian, I think you are fair when you say everyone should interpret what you present however one may want. But at the same time I sense a little bias towards linking RSSB with Religare. I have read the comments by some of the posters here, and they seem to be very sure of what they’re talking about. But it’s all subjective. I could take these arguments to “prove” there is a connection. And I could take the same to argue there isn’t one. Conclusion: I’m left where I started, but I see a lot of people wasting a lot of energy arguing over these things.
There are a couple of good posts where someone said something smart that challenged the usefulness of all this info. And I sensed you became defensive and quickly reacted so that the discussion would not be ended, but could continue in the original terms. It showed me your intentions, just to have people discuss pointlessly to get confused. A lot of info, but nothing to base facts on.
What did we learn?

so baba gurinder singh invested in his nephews company. what is wrong with that.he belongs to a well to do family.in india parents leave their wealth to their children.he will give to his kids like his father gave to him.
i am not a satsangi,but have been to the dera in beas and was highly impressed.the philosophy is for those who want to follow it.followers are not supposed to give up their religion but only supposed to adopt a few more principles.there are no forced donations or any rituals.the guru is a ‘guide’ and not God or even godman.he is a guru for those who need him.no one is forced to follow.i really dont understand why people are so critical and intolerant towards someone who satisfies the needs of lakhs of people by just being there.what is wrong with the letter he has written to the satsangis in japan.he is just propogating the virtue of fortitude and forbearance in the face of adversity.money is not the only solution to the worlds problems.human beings are not one dimensional.they need emotional and spiritual succor as well.

All these people that criticize RS don’t know anything, they have been on the path for a bit of time and expect miracles to happen. It doesn’t work like that, I know lots of people that are on the path and have reached the highest levels. These are actual people, face to face I have spoken to, and not read from in RS books. My parents go to seva at HP and one women who was a devotee for 40+plus years died recently. Her husband told my parents that at the time of her death maharajii and baba ji collected her. He said he never saw his wife so happy when she was dying. There are lots more stories I have heard from real people, the fact is to get to the higher stages it takes many years. We have lived so many lives and created so many sins, it takes years to gain the inner peace. Also there is this women who attends HP every week, every time I go there she is there, she said once baba ji appeared in her home and spoke to her about the teachings and gave her the address of hp. She has also spoken about some positive inner experiences.
To all you RS out there please don’t come on these forums, seek the truth from real people, e.g. go to seva and seek the truth from real people who have had real experiences. The internet is full of crap, full of negative people who blame RS for their failures/insecurities in life.
I myself have suffered lots of problems in life, and my master has always been there for me. Everytime i listen to satsangs, read books, get my masters darshan I feel peaceful, i feel the inner pull. I used to attend gurdwaras before, read their books and never really feeled the pull inside. But you don’t see me bad mouthing Sikhism, i STILL RESPECT IT,it is wrong to bad mouth any faith, if things didn’t workout well for you JUST MOVE ON AND DON’T POST NEGATIVE CRAP. I don’t care what other people say about the path, if they were true humans they wouldn’t bad mouth the path so much.

G: All these people that criticize RS don’t know anything, they have been on the path for a bit of time and expect miracles to happen.
Moongoes:
I think that for many of older people here who are meditating for more than 30 years or at least they told us so (like tAo, Brian…) is not a short period and to say that they don’t know anything is really not quite on the track, they do know and they should get some respect. I am more worried for people who cannot hold a constructional critic, can’t you realize that critic will help you construct your self as much as your ‘master’. Drop your feelings and emotions for a second and try to accept the critic it will help to balance your faith cause everybody has faith, just critic can turn your blind faith into real understanding.
G: It doesn’t work like that
Moongoes: It can work like that
G: These are actual people, face to face I have spoken to, and not read from in RS books.
Moongoes: Why does it matter if someone tells you something or if you read in the book both can be lies or both can be truth
G: Her husband told my parents that at the time of her death maharajii and baba ji collected her.
Moongoes: This is hard to understand was he there , were you there you cannot know that is a fact.
G: I have heard from real people, the fact is to get to the higher stages it takes many years.
Moongoes.: Not true you can be there in a second. At what places you wanna go are you not happy with where you are at and… there are no places only you where you are and when you become happy with where you are at you will realize you are already there.
G: Also there is this women who attends HP every week, every time I go there she is there, she said once baba ji appeared in her home and spoke to her about the teachings and gave her the address of hp.
Moongoes: She goes to HP everyweek and than she needs Baba Ji to give here the address…gosh you are funny you can tell her she can look into address book or online if she ever need some address again.(jk)
G: To all you RS out there please don’t come on these forums, seek the truth from real people, e.g. go to seva and seek the truth from real people who have had real experiences. The internet is full of crap, full of negative people who blame RS for their failures/insecurities in life.
Moongoes: I must remind you that you are on the internet and on these forum salso so first you must set an example than you can advice, otherwise you are battling with yourself.
G. JUST MOVE ON AND DON’T POST NEGATIVE CRAP
Moongoes: This is an example of bad mothing but owner of this blog is honest and is not bad mouthing and just sets out constructional critic which is not harmful. Just try to understand and you will be at peace.
G: I don’t care what other people say about the path, if they were true humans they wouldn’t bad mouth the path so much.
Moongoes : The fact is that we are humans bad mouthing or not.-i wish you PEACE

Dear Moon goes ,
You are quit a bit write about it, it also goes for all the same.
No matter what and how you say, you Simply can’t please all
and every body. ( example- You can not please your one better
half ) there is argument on both side, yes, critic are the BEST
friend we can keep, Said by Saint KABIR.
Mostly after Saints are Gone , Only than we believe in them,
But they are gone, and than we follow there teaching our way
what suite us best. so my humble request is that we can do it
now and look for the right path to the finally destination , if
we believe in it.

harbat: ( example- You can not please your one better
half ) there is argument on both side
Moongoes: Oh yes i can, she just ate a piece of nice homemade seitan by me, and in the evening uf you never know…
harbat_ yes, critic are the BEST
friend we can keep
Moongoes: Said by Charan
harbat: so my humble request is that we can do it
now and look for the right path to the finally destination , if
we believe in it.
Moongoe: Yes final destination, New York, Europe maybe some concert like Hiromi….otherwise no thanks i am content with where i am thanks,moongoes

Radha Swami Ji to all of you.

ha ha ha … Messrs Shananjit Singh … do you also ‘hear’ God laughing at just how funny that sounds from ‘His’ perspective?

Seeker2011 what is funny, sharanjit singh only wanted to say hello to everybody with RS gesture. So no big a deal.

ha ha ha

Anybody want to make a donation…?!!
http://www.charitiestrust.org/charities/radha_soami_satsang_beas_british_isle/index.html

Looks like you want to bring RSSB down by any means, what is the issue if someone is wealthy, have you seen the history of Ranbaxy before pointing figures to Malvinder Singh & his brother, You guys are talking about insider trading bla bla…you guys are becoming justice and passing your judgment, if you have so much of issues why are you just talking and doing chit chat here..make some efforts to prove yourself rather than writing blogs here…Do you guys know the history of Babaji & his family background before pointing figures on him…Do you know the meaning of Rich background, it looks like you have just got a Religare point and making it best to bring RSSB down & i pity on those who are believing you…
May be Religare part was one transaction, Babaji is the Guru but that does not mean his family can do nothing and sit ideal (As acc. to you, well then you will say Guru’s family is doing nothing and depending on Sangats money), His family is not entitled to answer you for what they are doing, You are just looking at one scenario, have you understand what was the reason behind that…(you will understand that only if you look beyond $$$$$)…
For all the other readers:
If you will search on internet you will find the same kind of blogs spread across multiple sites, the source for these looks likes to be same either an organization or and individual who is just jealous of RSSB and got some personal issues…
Even though I dnt like commenting on such things and these blogs are not worth enough to explain the positive side of my Guru…..
As said by Jesus.. “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing.”

everyone has separate business than why you people making an additional issue for Religare as well that information all the dera followers know is it clear everyone..dera trust is non-profit trust.

when you people dont know all the facts then why you people point out.late Dr.Parvinder was grand son of 2nd guru of radha soami satsang beas “Hazur Baba Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj”.Hazur Baba Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj were grand father of 4th guru of RSSB Maharaj Charan Singh Ji and Maharaj Charan Singh ji were maternal uncle of present master of RSSB Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Dhillon.by this fact all of them are from the same family

and if you people dont know then let me tell you that present master himself is quite rich and they are zamindars.they even put their money in progress of main centre held in beas.

There are so many arrangements that needs to be made for us by him, you might not understand it now. These shares are and will be used by RSSB trust for our welfare in MANY WAYS, money is essential for all this. Don’t you guys earn money for your family to feed and shelter them, you need more money if you have more family members. All the Sangat all are his childrens and he knows it better about how to take care of his family.

these are only rumours and one type of mechanism or we can say jelous regarding Dera Radha Soami Satsang Beas .when we are unable to do any thing ussually we feel jelous with famous people Baba Is GOd .so it is request avoid such rumours

Plz dearest so called author go n check on the website of religare n fortis I think u r gone by ur mind u r totally insane… Stop abusing any spiritual leader without proper proofs if he’s a fraud then like other fraud leaders he prove guilty… N moreover baba g never force anyone to do any donation. Plz stop misguiding. U idiot

Hema Nvneet..the same..troll

Radha swami beas has not ..force anybody to donate money in satsung…..
But
Every institution needs funds to operate its activities….
Rssb doing well in spirituality fields just because of current baba g…
Its a purest institution in India..
So pupils of other institution trying to damage the fine purest image of rssb.
From Sunil Maurya

As far as I see this situation, in USA it’s illegal to do insider trading because government claims tax on that income. However in India the laws work differently. But on the other hand you didn’t provide any information on if they paid taxes on that income or not. Malvinder and shivinder are their relatives, hence it makes sense if they transfer money to gurkirat and his brother. And just to inform you rssb is run by trust and not by gurinder Singh dhillon. He just lives and preaches in the dera.

The Master is always Perfect whether inside or outside.My only focus in my struggle will always be realising Him. Beware of projecting the weakness of our own minds.Master is Perfect always & for ever, inside or outside.
God bless us.

Please can anybody tell me whether Revenue Minister of Punjab Bikramjeet singh Majathia is married to predecessor of RSSB Charn singh grewal’s daughter or not. I am a follower of RSSB. I have seen RSSB illegal activities on Beas river’ bank when I used to do sewa their. Also RSSB steals Beas river sand illegaly.
If the answer to my question that I requested above in starting lines is for sure yes with any certain proof I will consider this organization fraud and not be a follower anymore.

Rssb does not steal sand. Samrat stop trolling

Reading through this thread again I can see clearly how “confirmation bias” works. We all like confirmation of our existing beliefs or theories and we gang up with others who are on the same wavelength. It takes quite some time to change those beliefs. We are so programmed! I have really enjoyed lately watching Scott Adams discussing the Trump phenomenon who speaks about this and other NLP tactics in his videos.

Are you taking to your self ?
digital profit course

How many of u know that rssb organisation has donated 600 crore rupees to the Indian govt for overall development of the country and has kept it hidden without taking any credit.. if I have a friend who is opening a new company I find it worthy I will invest ask my kids too also.. that is basic human nature .. I am earning my own money even donating it to the organisation.. plus the organisation’s donates back as it deems fit thru money or thru having Indian largest solar panel or largest garbage recycling unit or rather the only plastic recycling unit in india

“How many of u know that rssb organisation has donated 600 crore rupees to the Indian govt for overall development of the country and has kept it hidden without taking any credit..”
Siyona, do tell, if it’s a secret then how do you know about it and why are you asking us to give RSSB credit for it, genius? And the Indian gov is massively corrupt at every level. Giving them money sounds more like bribery, not development.
Also, there is no English word “crore” so nobody knows what you’re talking about.

You have no sence please do not use these wrong words about dera Beas and babaji. Many people bilive in baba ji . These forud things are useless for me and other satangies