A Sant Mat guru answers a question with: “Don’t question”

IF U R INITIATED AND SIT ON MEDITATION REGULARLY. A TIME COMES WHEN NO QUESTION IS LEFT IN THE MIND.IT IS REALLY VERY VERY DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW THE PATH. THERE ARE SO MANY PIT FALLS. IT IS GRACE OF GOD WHICH PREVAILS AT LAST IF ONE CAN EXPEIRINCE IN ONE’S LIFE TIME. OTHERWISE THE WHOLE WHORLD IS EMPTY. THE PATH LEADS TO FRUSTRATION IF FOLLOWED WITH SINCERETY ON MEDITATION ALONE, GRACE OF GOD AND HUMBLENESS TOWARDS HIS CREATION ARE MUST

‘A time comes when no Question is left in the mind’
That is the issue, do you guarantee this, or is it the Master who does?
How many times are we told this….Is there anyone out there who can categorically say ‘I have travelled within and I have no more questions? If you have or anyone has….where are the answers?
I am not talking about ‘fairy tales’, not about hearsay, not about what apparently has happened between so called Masters.
It is all based on Faith and nothing else, just as other religions & beliefs.
I am beginning to believe that NO belief is the only way to ‘know thyself’.
As I stated all faiths promise and hitherto do not deliver. When we attach ourselves to someone, some belief, some ideology we are NOT freeing our minds…..you are giving it substance and hence keeping it imprisoned. Why do you think you and all struggle so much on their respective paths.
The Master say’s to many enquirer’s…”Have you found anything better”……
I say…why are you LOOKING!
All you need to be free is to stop chasing dreams of the Machine called Religion/faith. Free the mind from all these man made manifestations and be ultimately free. Once you discover your true self through ownership of self, then only you can be free.
You talk of Grace of God…..You are God…Know who you truly are!

Reincarnation is a pretty strange idea to me. Especially with relation to karma. Imagine it, the Bhagavad Gita says that we have existed since the beginning of time. Think about how many lives you must have had. Now think about the amount of karma you have stockpiled. It must be almost infinite! How can a person possibly erase this load of karma?
What about the creation of new souls? And what about the big bang theory?
If our souls are immortal then how can there have been a time when they came into existence?
The fall of man from some vague conception of a “heaven” to earth doesn’t make a jot of sense. This biblical story of Adam and Eve must be a joke. It contains so many contradictions. Adam ate the fruit and knew evil. Why would God not want Adam to know evil and then plant a fruit in eden for adam to eat in the first place? And how did the people that wrote Genesis know what God said to Adam unless Adam was made to speak an unevolved language?! It’s all a load of nonsense.

Truly, we are God but it is said self realization is essential before God realization.
It is all my theoritical knowledge. Had I experienced anything within myself, I would i have not being visiting this blog.
THIS VERY BLOG HAS COME INTO BEING BECOUSE BRIAN COULD NOT GET THE DESIRED RESULTS FROM MEDITATION. HAD HE GOT SOMETHING HE WOULD HAVE BEN THE LAST MAN TO COME UP WITH THIS BLOG.
THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE IS THOSE WHO SPEAK HAVE NO PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE AND THOSE WHO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE DO NOT SPEAK.
YET THERE ARE SOME WHO HAVE ALL THE EXPERIENCES AND SPEAK AS WELL. IN FACT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SPEAK BY PERMISSION OF THEIR MASTER AS A PART OF THEIR DUTY.

Rakesh, believe me when I say I understand your point of view BUT
I reiterate what I said earlier…’fairy tales’, hearsay, stories of what happened between so called Masters.
Again your assumptions are just that and based on what you have heard second hand.
Funny how you say “IN FACT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SPEAK BY PERMISSION OF THEIR MASTER AS A PART OF THEIR DUTY”
I presume you are talking about the ones that give Satsang………do you know the criteria to give Satsang?
It has nothing to do with your inner experiences! It’s all to do with your knowledge of the subject and how well you can translate the meanings of poems. Are you seriously telling me that some that give Satsang actually have experiences, when it is clear they do not through the litany of mistakes they make when they preach. I have known preachers since the age of five {I am now 40}….they would continually come to our house to practice! That is exactly what they did, practice translations & poems.
And what’s all this about experiences; hearing sounds, seeing light is the foundation of many faiths and modes of meditation but does not mean you are realising God.
The mind is empty…we use 10% if lucky so these experiences are nothing but delving into parts of the brain that are dormant. Don’t confuse this with realisation…..Ask anyone who has delved into the use of certain drugs…..they apparently have all these experiences and a lot more! That would mean, going by your logic and that of others on various faiths that they are indeed Realised Souls, when in fact it is just the Mind!
This faith like all others is based on fear, this results in control. You know who the Masters point out as their ideal followers …….the Simple folk of the hills and villages of India! They will not use their intellect because they are not allowed to and governed by fear.
I presume you have read the literature, which clearly indicates two types of Master…One which is born a Master & one who is initiated into one. Born a Master, therefore no need for one….why do you need one, be free my friend.
My objective is to free myself not to be TIED to anything or anyone. To be liberated, be limitless & boundless. You cannot be that if you are bound.

Brian,
Suppose he would have answered your question in some way acceptable to you. You would have just asked another one…ad nasuium..
Sorry I missed the festivities in Haynes park.
Try “living with kundalini” by gopi krisna –
A Very Excellent guide.
lou

cyfer, I didn’t ask the questions. Shin did. I don’t have any questions for the guru. Actually, I don’t have any questions for anybody when it comes to metaphysics, because I don’t believe anyone has answers. I ask questions of myself; that’s the only place answers will come. From within, not without.

“THE FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE IS THOSE WHO SPEAK HAVE NO PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE AND THOSE WHO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE DO NOT SPEAK.”
— No, that is incorrrect and backwards. The reality is that those who have had no experience are always the ones doing the speaking, and they always speak about it as if they have had the experiences. But upon being questioned further, they invariably admit that they have had no experiences at all, and that actually they acquired all their ideas and info from books or satsang lectures. Its always the ones who have had no experience who are the ones who talk and preach dogma. Those who have had experience do not follow or preach any dogma. Those who have had experience tend to question dogma and those who preach dogma.
“YET THERE ARE SOME WHO HAVE ALL THE EXPERIENCES AND SPEAK AS WELL. IN FACT THEY ARE THE ONES WHO SPEAK BY PERMISSION OF THEIR MASTER AS A PART OF THEIR DUTY.”
— Again, that is backwards. Those who actually have had experience, do not need any “permission” (from anyone) to speak, or any approval. Those who have had experience, do not need any “master”. And those who actually have had experience, are never bound by any such “duty” to any so-called “master”, nor have they any “duty” to speak or preach any sort of dogma.
It is always those who have had no experience, who rely upon blind faith and “permission” and dogma and scriptures, who are the ones who go about preaching to others.

Manish arora says:
“theres a system ones need to adopt to do satsang”
— Who says there is a particular “system” that one MUST “need to adopt?
“many people have and had inner experiences but all aren’t permitted to dislcose”
— No one needs or must have any such permission. No body (such as the RSSB) has any right to tell other people what they can or cannot “disclose”, or to restrict freedom of speech.
“Why they arent permitted because theres some very strange reason lies within which can only be revealed when we go inside.”
— This kind of nonsense is both idiotic and evasive.
“RSSB is not any such institute depends upon Dogma culturem”
— Wrong. The RSSB relies entirely upon dogma and guru-cultism.
“And RSSB hasnt created anything of their own”
— Wrong again. The doctine of Santmat/RSSB is entirely created by RS gurus and adherents. Where do you think it all came from if not created by RS gurus?
“Rssb masters never said they are god disguise in human”
— Wrong again. Santmat and RS both says and implies that the ‘master’ is GIHF throughout their teachings and literature.
“RSSB preach the path which has been taught by many saints whom all have been coming and going for this purpose”
— Who says they are “saints”? What makes them “saints”? You are still evading the issue and and refusing to answer this simple question.
“shiekh fareed guru nanak dev ji kabir saheb
paltu sahib dadu. shami-e-tabriz swami ji maharaj”
— These are just names of various men, most all of whom had no connection whatsoever to the RS sect, and all who passed away long ago.
“they have followed the footsteps of all those saits who in their times have come and preached about getting out of transgimiration, and abt not using ur intellecut.”
— That IS the point… PREACHING doctine and dogma proves nothing…. no matter who it was who preached it.
“how can we even think about the creator thru our minds which mind is itself given by the creator to us.”
— This is meaningless mumbo-jumbo.
“its not at all possible to get all answers thru this intellectual mind..as this mind has its limitation.”
— Then why are your arguing, debating, and preaching via your intellect?
“what can take us beyond all these materialistic world and mind is our soul”
— What “soul”? ‘Soul’ is just an abstract concept, and a mere word. What does it refer to? Where is this “soul”? It is merely an idea that you believe in.
“our soul which is being prisoned in this body”
— Prove it. Prove that there is a “soul” and that this so-called “soul” is “being prisoned” in the body.
“its very complicated thing to understand.”
— This is just an excuse which actually represents more avoidance and evasion than anything else.
“we human have the habit of analyzing,but again a truth we cannot find god by using our mind.”
— There is no need to “find God”. God is not lost or somewhere else.
“Can we really think the way Albert Einstein use to think the way bill gates think the way wareen buffet think No we cannot are they special”
— This comment is idiotic. Those are all intelligent, but nevertheless quite ordinary people. They are not “special”. Gates and Buffet are merely very wealthy – nothing uniquely special there. And also there are many people who are just as smart as Einstein was, if not more so. Nothing special there either.
“how can we compare with the god
the creator of this whole universe..
thats the reason we do not find reasons.”
— Oh sure… excuses, excuses, excuses…. LOL
“when we are not able to try to go inside completely we get frustrated”
Wrong again. No one here is “frustrated”… except for dogma believers like you.
“at last all these doubts which are the gift of negative power trap us.”
— Oh sure… that (“negative power trap us”) is similar to that other lame excuse “Satan made me do it”. Do you actually think that rational people will buy such quasi-religious crap?
its not so easy to have spiritual progress because […] we arent able to follow the way we have to.”
— There is NO such “way we have to”.
“we thus fail..and start questioning about master and its path.”
— Questioning is NOT to “fail” at all. To question is to have intelligence and true wisdom. And ALL leaders, teachers, and so-called “masters” SHOULD be questioned.
“Tao brother said those who had experience do not need masters […] my dear without master no one can have inner experience”
— That is total nonsense. No such “master” is needed. I have had many and much profound “inner experience” without any so-called “master”. So you don’t know what you are talking about. Your rhetoric is narrow-minded dogma… its not the rule.
“its only when we can go inside and see we wud come to know what master is and what he does for us.”
— Another ridiculous evasive ploy.
“will you forget your parents who have taught you to speak to walk to talk
and when you grow up will you yell on them
saying you people do not understand anything”
— No because my parents cared for me, raised me, and taught me. But these so-called “masters” are not my parents… so I don’t owe them anything. So your analogy does not apply.
“we often get carried away by our mind..
and mind is enemy to us.”
— Wrong. Mind is not “enemy” at all. This is crazy thinking. Mind is intrinsic to human life.
“because it keep us busy in all those things which arent important in our life.”
— Wrong. All “those things” ARE indeed important in out life.
“we are born to die.”
— The body is born, and so the body must die. That is all there is to it. So accept it and deal with it… don’t run away from it.
“this human form is given to us for a very purpose and the purpose is God realisation.”
— That is only your own personal opinion.
why you ppl arent able to believe that theres a creator behind this universe”
— I don’t say that there is no creator. You are putting false words and ideas into other peoples mouths.
“the creator is also inside us.”
— How do you know that?
“this words arent said by me or just one master that god is within us its said by every saint who have come on earth”
— Incorrect. Not all so-called “saints” have said that. Not by a long shot.
“even jesus said the same”
— Jesus is a religious myth constructed by the Church.
“guru nanak dev kabir sahib paltu ji
dadu mira bai swami ji everyone..said the same thing”
— No they did not… but who cares what they said?
“the essence of the truth is ONE n the SAME for all”
— No, sorry to inform you, but “the truth” is NOT “ONE n the SAME” for everyone. There are many different opinions in the world about what is truth and what is not.

Manish,
I agree with everything oAt has stated!
Your are indeed confused and are the perfect fodder for this faith.
Your claims are one of book knowledge and nothing more. The fact that you along with the other ‘sheep’, continually try to shovel your dogma down the throats of others is proof of this….and by the way you are indeed using your intellect when doing this.
Whatever you have said is not new….it is something I have heard all my life…in books, at satsangs and by other people like you, who THINK they know something but have Experienced nothing…..you know….the one’s that always Preach.
You live in fear as I continually say and are not truly free.
You say “this human form is given to us for a very purpose and the purpose is God realisation.”
You know how many Satsangis there are..approx 1.5 million added to this about another couple of million who follow a path of Surat Shabd Yoga in some form. Therefore this makes approx 3.5 million.
What about the other 6.3 BILLION People of the world.
This is the greatest ‘cop out’ going….Oh this birth is given after millions of life times and must be used for God Realisation!!!
Again what about the other 6.3 Billion people you ignore….who according to the philosophy also waited millions of life times!!Answer me that…You can’t because there are no answers in the books.
And you state the beliefs all these so called Saints….What proof have you got of their real roles within society…were you there…again all hearsay & books.
Don’t get me started on Jesus Christ!!! Go on look at Zeitgeist the movie:
Quote: “The reality is, Jesus was the Solar Deity of the Gnostic Christian sect,and like all other Pagan gods, he was a mythical figure. It was the political establishment that sought to historize the Jesus figure for social control. By 325 a.d. in Rome, emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicea.It was during this meeting that the politically motivated Christian Doctrines were established and thus began a long history of Christian bloodshed and spiritual fraud. And for the next 1600 years, the Vatican maintained a political stranglehold on all of Europe, leading to such joyous periods as the Dark Ages, along with enlightening events such as the Crusades, and the Inquisition.
Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems, is the fraud of the age. It serves to detach the species from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility to the effect that “God” controls everything, and in turn awful crimes can be justified in the name of Divine Pursuit. And most importantly, it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies. The religious myth is the most powerful device ever created, and serves as the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish”.
Christ was based on the Egyptian Sun God Horus!! It is all Mythology & Astrology…The Three day resurrection is based on the Winter Solstice, where the sun remains at its lowest points for 2 days and begins to rise on the third! There are numerous examples like these & the Majority of so called saints can be traced back to similar associations.
I hope this awakens your desire to do serious research before expounding your well trodden doctrine.

I would love to know what Tao thinks about Faqir Chand.
Do you believe his words about what he experienced in meditation? Thanks.

Dear Shin,
I have gone through your comments. “Satsang” is a word in Hindi which simply means the company of truth. It never means discourse.
We use only 10% of our energy however hardworking we are.
The experiences of a schizophrenic and mystic are similar. But one experiences them under no control of him where as the other experiences at will.
Enough literature on mysticism and schizophrenia is available. It makes a good reading.
My experiences are truly second hand.
I really fail to understand when no mundane activity can be learnt without a master how spiritualism can be.
A child can never learn a particular language unless taught. No body knows by birth however one intelligent is.
I need not go beyond the four wall of my house. My father was my ideal who never gave a damn to the organization. He only concentrated on the technique of meditation and his master. I saw him for forty years. He practiced surat shabad yoga and one fine morning he said I going to leave my body in the evening which I have been practicing for several years and finally he did. I saw his countenance the most satisfied when I finally expired.
This space is too small for me to share his experiences.
MY MOUTH WILL ALWAYS REMAIN SHUT TO ELABORATE MY EXPERIENCES.
With kindest regards,

oops !! sorry bout tat Brian,,,, I shoulda known.. 🙂
i just purused the articles…
We just enjoy the cognitive reverie, there are no answers in these subjects. One side has never been able to convince the other to their satisfaction.
Personally, I have to listen to what my mind/body demand and that is that I meditate in my way and then everything is fine. I don’t ask myself questions. Direct experience is it period. Nothing else will do.

P.S.
Okay i’ve gone back and read the board.
Everything the anti-guru and anti-cult(r.s)
people say is 100% correct.
However i did enjoy rakesh father.
RS is 90% brainless dogma. 5% Zen and 5% Kundalini.
my invaluable 2 cents…

“I would love to know what Tao thinks about Faqir Chand.”
— He seemed more honest in his admittance that he had no mystic powers, but he still played the role of guru anyway.
“Do you believe his words about what he experienced in meditation?”
— What is there to believe? What words were those? I never said much of anything about my experiences, nor were they confined only to meditation.

BTW, I’d like to acknowledge: That was one heck of an intelligent comment from Shin. Right-on Shin! You really nailed it mate. Well said.
Now moving on…
Rakesh Bhasin said:
“Satsang” is a word in Hindi which simply means the company of truth. It never means discourse.”
— Yes… but still, discourse is a part of many satsangs.
“The experiences of a schizophrenic and mystic are similar.”
— That may be because many so-called mystics were possibly quite schizophrenic.
“I really fail to understand when no mundane activity can be learnt without a master how spiritualism can be.”
— That is not so. Many “mundane” activities and skills can be learned by oneself without any teacher, and spirituality even more so.
“My father was my ideal who never gave a damn to the organization. He only concentrated on the technique of meditation and his master. […] He practiced surat shabad yoga”
— Thats nice… but, so what?
“This space is too small for me to share his experiences.”
— I am not interested in his experiences.
“MY MOUTH WILL ALWAYS REMAIN SHUT TO ELABORATE MY EXPERIENCES.”
— A typical cop-out. Its what they all say when cornered. The same old evasive RS bullshit.
What exactly are you trying to prove here Rakesh?

Dear Shin,
I saw you questioning him that day and a thought struck me. I used to have exactly the same confusion and was very happy you asked this question at Haynes.
But,
Why do you believe that our intellect(human form) is perfect enuf to understand each and every phenomena on this plane? Don’t you confront your intellect when things don’t go as we planned? Will you believe if I say that there are not 1 but infinite gods and infinite similar stages of experiencing life in one form or the other..i knw you wont.
Our intellect is not powerful enuf to think everything. There are things which can be experienced only with raised consciousness. You want master to tell you everything before you experience it yourself, why not struggle and see it for yourself? Anyways, you are not paying anything or loosing when you are on the path and struggling. There is no one’s personal gain except our own, there is nothing to loose..then why fear??
This is what I felt for myself when i was confronted with the same questions that you have.

First of all Manish, your comment was very hard to read. Please try to be more coherent (i.e. use sentences and paragraphs). It’s just easier to read and understand your point that way.
That said,
“you are not at all qualified to have any inner experience because u have no ability to understand things correctly..”
Firstly, you have no idea what anyone on this blog has experienced or is capable of. No one but themselves do. Secondly, you say we’re not qualified. What are the qualifications then? And who are you to say that someone is or is not qualified to experience anything?
“like this this churcless will be turn out 2 be a shit nothing more than that..”
If this blog is shit then why are you here?
“tao even said that kabir dad guru nanak dev ji havent said all this
well this statment shows ur igonrance n innocence.”
Were you there when they were alive? No? Then how do you truly know what they said? No one really knows because they weren’t there! And if their statements are recorded somewhere, who wrote them down? How accurate is the source? History is plagued with these kind of issues.
“well what i can see is churcless people arent ready to accept the truth they all just wanted results”
Isn’t that the whole point? RSSB promises results therefore it is natural to expect them.
“they are desperate for results without working hard”
How do you know how hard someone else has worked? Brian has stated that he followed the RSSB method to the letter for several decades. Are you saying that all that time he wasn’t working hard enough? What more can someome do?
” they even never sapred jesus ….how can people like u can spare us we are just as normal human beings..
when ppl like u can murder jesus..”
The “Jesus is a Myth” idea is well known. There aren’t many contemporary sources describing Jesus from his own time. It is one of the views people take when analysing Jesus as a real historical figure. He is thought of as a real historical figure so why should historians “spare” him? And those who bring up this idea of Jesus having never existed and the whole conspiracy behind it, are just using their intellect. They are quoting information they learned elsewhere and are expressing their opinions. There is nothing wrong with that.
And no one “murdered” Jesus. No one was even alive that long ago. And as for metaphorical murder, as I have stated, this is one view historians take about Jesus. If you have an issue with it, take it up with those who actually thought up the theory in the first place.
“so ppl like u can say what ever they want”
That’s called freedom of speech.

Also Manish,
I encourage you to watch a documentary called “Who wrote the Bible?”. It’s very interesting and very informative. The presenter goes on a journey to uncover the historical basis of the Bible.
Here is a link if you are interested: http://www.surfthechannel.com/episode/61511/237337.html

Tintin,
You were there and I never said at any point our intellect is perfect enough to understand each & every phenomena.
To Refresh:
This existence we are all a part of is a GAME created out of boredom. Therefore this infers IMPERFECTION. Hence, why do we want to go back to imperfection, only to be told, the Game will continue or a new one created and you will have to be sent back! As you will only be bored here”? I went onto to say the creator is experiencing all the good, bad & evil through each one of us…
Me believing in infinite planes of existence has got nothing to do with it!
There may be millions!….what are we trying to decipher here and when we debate with our peers?
We are here looking for the truth and trying to understand the truth. If Sant Mat is real or just another Scam.
With a truly open mind it does in fact look like another Scam to me!!……and my daughter of 20, who uses her own intellect {don’t forget I was also a so called Premie Satsangi for many years….in fact I was doing seva from the age of 5} calls this a Very Good Business!!
You say we are not paying or loosing anything….my friend you pay with your LIFE and every breadth you take! And if you are taking Monetary…that made me giggle, actually laugh out aloud….don’t you see all the Seva {Money} boxes conveniently situated at every satsang centre in the world! And yes many give by Direct Debit!!!….when you are so sucked into some belief you will not only give money but your property to! This money seva is all done with stealth…and so many people give so so so much….and majority who do not understand give only because they want something in return in THIS life…a good job, a good wife/husband, good health, good children, wealth etc etc etc….These are FACTS and the reason many attend Satsang…..oh I better attend this week but continue to violate the teachings throughout the week…continue with family squabbles, continue with underhand business techniques, continue with abusive attitudes, continue NOT to help people in need, etc etc etc………all based on fear as I continue to say!
I never believed I will know everything BUT do understand how to be FREE….with any faith you are indeed carrying a Sack of Rocks…when you have Nothing…you can RUN!!!
Manish,
I feel so sorry for you!
Your reply to TAO was indeed Abusive….you call yourself a satsangi….this is why so many have so many questions because of people like you! The master says ‘turn the other cheek’, but your reply was full of Anger….don’t preach what you cannot practice.
And what is your obsession on Jesus. Please read my previous comment. Jesus as we know him was a figment of the Roman Empire based on Ancient Egypt. But it appears you do not research and believe anything you are told…but if you seek something more as proof, here is a bit more:
The cross of the Zodiac, IS the figurative life of the Sun, this was not just an artistic expression or tool to track the Sun’s movements. It was also a Pagan spiritual symbol. This is NOT a symbol of Christianity. It is a Pagan adaptation of the cross of the Zodiac. This is why Jesus in early occult art is always shown with his head on the cross, for Jesus is the Sun, the Sun of God, the Light of the World, the Risen Savior, who will “come again,” as it does every morning, the Glory of God who defends against the works of darkness, as he is “born again” every morning, and can be seen “coming in the clouds,” “up in Heaven,” with his “Crown of Thorns,” or, sun rays. All this depicts the cycle of OUR SUN AND Nothing more. AND a final obvious one for you:
Jesus had 12 Disciples….and come to think of it Horus too…. and are simply the 12 constellations of the Zodiac, which Jesus, being the SUN, travels about with…..common sense hey!

I think we should have a serious blog searching for the top ten questions that should be posed to this so called GIHF, short, concise and eloquent enough to elaborate the point(s) – such that this joker of a guru would effectively be speechless and shake up the indoctrinated followers. The blog could also suggest (if any) the lame answer we would probably get!
This blog wouldn`t be for any current rssb followers as they aren`t allowd to use their intellect! 🙂

Question by shin: “This game is fundamentally the Creator experiencing Itself through each individual soul. Therefore he is experiencing all the good, all the bad, and evil through us as a part of this game?”
Answer: “No, the Creator does not need to experience good or bad, he does not need to.
he does not say that the creator does not experience it, he said that he does not need to experience it. is a question of freedom, not morality, ethics, karma, or of any other known laws. the quest is for freedom, from and for something, And he repeated himself twice…he does not need to.
Question number two:
“This existence we are all a part of is a GAME created out of boredom. Therefore this infers IMPERFECTION. Hence, why do we want to go back to imperfection, only to be told, the Game will continue or a new one created and you will have to be sent back! As you will only be bored here”?
Answer: “Do not take everything I say as literal and it may just be expressed in jest!
Anyway it is not imperfect up there/in there and you will not be sent back
Why do you assume that we were bored, and that even if were bored, you corelae boredom with imperfection. And what is perfection anyway. You have so many pre-assumptions. A creator, a soul, sending down, boredom, imperfection. These are not words that describe concrete physical social entities. they are metaphors, analogys, signs, symbols, points on a map, guidelines at the most,mental satisfaction for a mind that has been taught to work in a society with myriads of symbols all embedded with different meanings depending on context. Dont confuse the language which is a platform for communication for the thing in itself. Be more worried if you left totally satisfied with what he said.
In santmat, the philosophy is straighforward. The mind is the tool and soul/shabd is the neverending fuel. All these questions of whether there is a being, or no being, both a being and no being, neither being or no being, via negativa/positiva,chaos/order, neither chaos or order etc etc. all are mind, and all pathways, methods for conceputalisation.
The answer by Gurinder was again eloquent and straight to the point. If you remember more questions and answers post them so that we can have more to compare.

“What is there to believe? What words were those? I never said much of anything about my experiences, nor were they confined only to meditation.”
Faqir Chand’s words were about meditation. I know that you’ve read his words about him seeing his inner guru seeing bright light and hearing sound and experiencing intense bliss within.
He has written in many words his experiences.
Do you believe that he really did see the inner lights and sounds and then also the soundless colorless stage?
I will also post some of his words if you’d like to comment:
“Light manifests itself within you. You see that Light. You are
different from it whereas the Light is different from you. Similarly,
you listen to the continuous sound of the Shabd within you. That sound
of the Shabd is playing, whereas you the listener are different. Then
who is it that sees the Light and listens to the Sound within? It is
your Real Self. Your Self sees the Light and listens to the Sound,
enjoys the scenes created by the mind and beholds Baba Faqir, or the
Guru within. Then who is the Real Lord within you? It is your own
Self. Your own Self is the witness within. Whatever colours, forms,
Light and Sound manifest within you depend upon the constitution,
balance and nature of your body. Your Real Self is not your body. You
reside in the body and you are the basis of this body. Similarly, the
basis of this universe is the Supreme Lord, who is the source of our
Self. The Supreme Lord is known by different names as Akaal Purush,
Anami Purush etc.”
Thanks

Oh and Tao you have said to someone above:
“That may be because many so-called mystics were possibly quite schizophrenic.”
So would you say that Faqir Chand was schizophrenic?
Chand heard voices from a inner guru. He heard sounds and saw light or experienced soundless lightless situations. All at his own will, according to his writtings. Thanks.

“Light manifests itself within you. You see that Light. You are
different from it whereas the Light is different from you. Similarly,
you listen to the continuous sound of the Shabd within you. That sound
of the Shabd is playing, whereas you the listener are different. Then
who is it that sees the Light and listens to the Sound within? It is
your Real Self. Your Self sees the Light and listens to the Sound,
enjoys the scenes created by the mind and beholds Baba Faqir, or the
Guru within.”
—How does One see and record this light? Is this a sensory mental activity?
—How does One hear and record these sounds? Another sensory mental activity?
—So, does this “Real Self” have a different mind, from my other self?
—How does One know that these lights and sounds are different from myself?

“Faqir Chand’s words were about meditation. I know that you’ve read his words about him seeing his inner guru seeing bright light and hearing sound and experiencing intense bliss within.”
—So, why does the light have to bright? Anyone, ever experience a dime light in meditation?
—What is it about bright light or sounds, that would generate an “intense bliss” within?
—Does darkness create the opposite effect?
If so, then why would it?
—Faqir Chand’s words are just words, combined into sentences.

Alex,
My question was a collective effort and the answer though direct continued in the vain of other pertinent questions; answered in the vague and confused manner….there is indeed a law of confusion!
I don’t really care if he was bored, imperfect, wanted a break, dip his toes in unchartered waters, commit the first sin etc etc etc……..The question is to define whether we are getting the truth from RS or it is all hocus pocus. It clearly appears when asked questions relating to existence and the why’s & if’s of creation and being itself….they are brushed aside Not because we cannot understand as claimed but because the answer is not known. Read what I wrote a couple of months ago ‘good questions from a sant mat truth seeker’. Those questions have never been answered.
But to tell you the truth I have accepted they will not be answered because the answers are not known and the fact the faith is…..dare I say it…..fake…there I’ve said it! But a very good business!
Like so many others based on fear and control.
I am quite happy to try my own path…..and if you recall a gentleman stood up and asked “will all souls eventually go up?” Answer – Yes eventually but it depends how fast you want to go back!
Therefore why should I worry………I don’t need to……and if you are so confident this is the path….then I will be saved anyway according to the belief; this life, next life, whatever life. If you implicitly trust the Master…..this very site and the people on it are exactly what he wants. I reiterate he is within every Amoeba every hair follicle! Think about it, according to all faiths God is all powerful and knows all, every thought, every movement….he wants this! The Master never criticises anyone or anything…why because this is the Game he wants.
MY MISSION IS TO FREE MYSELF and I am happy to try it ON MY OWN…..thank you very much.

Joshu….i want call you ji because you don’t deserve it!
Anyone who doubts the faith just read his comments.
I know all satsangis are not like him BUT he has just let you down big time!!

Dear Church (or Crutch) of the Linguistic Intellect Followers,
Remaining within the stifling confines of the conceptual intellect is being ‘FREE’?
Hm.
Dear Shin,
First of all I admire your questioning of the Big Dude from Sach Khand, and posting your experiences here. Thanks.
In my opinion, you have got half the question and answer right.
But not quite.
Remove your purely body-mind organism *construct* of time/space from your question, and then rethink your inner question again….
You may realise this whole hyper-excitable discussion is entirely meaningless.
Then, an almost infinite level of insight further than these questions, beyond the incredibly limited scope of intellect, where conceptual queries are realised as empty of any substantial self-nature or validity, your intellect may actually acheive peace & contenment by subsiding into the non-conceptual basis of being.
All the best my friend.

Joshu, just get on with following your Master> If you truly do you would not be here!
Manjit, my friend your observations are real but unfounded as all i want is to LET GO.
Let Go of control {RS} & Let Go of my mind.When i let it go it will let me go!
I feel real freedom will only be found if i do this.
I have written enough here and know what i need to do.
Take care.

what else can anyone do but follow, either their own mind or if they truly are good disciples (unlike myself) then they follow the true will of the lord, but follow is what you do, left, right or center, every single one of us are but forlorn foolish fallible followers, one way or the other.

Dear Shin –
Nice 🙂
Maybe we shall meet in no-mind, in one sunny eternal moment.
Cheerio.

Manish arora,
You said:
“and i m soon planning to leave this blog..
because here theres only single minded theory”
–So, we won’t have to hear about YOUR single minded theory anymore? !!
Manish, all you want to hear is agreement with your Sant Mat theory. Views conflicting with your beliefs upset you. You are unlikely to convince anyone on this forum to believe as you believe. So, as long as you comment here with that expectation you are guaranteed frustration when commenting on this blog forum. Don’t you think it would be best to attend to simran and bhajan according to your master’s instructions and not waste time on this blog. Like you say, life is short. It’s time to get to work to free yourself from the ravenous jaws of Kal and his fetid world of Pinda. Leave the rest of us to wallow in our wretched dance on the wheel of eighty-four. If the master wants us, we can’t resist his call, sooner or later, right? Not to worry.
Rotten Swami

Note: For purposes of the conservation of space in the comment/menu index, I will address each of several different posters and their issues in one long comment:
————————————
Manish arora said:
“what swisha shin and tao are trying is to just satisfy their minds”
— No, that is what YOU are trying to do. I need no such mental satisfaction. That which is real is self-evident.
“thats the reason they may even die without knowing all the answers they wanted to know.”
— I do not need or desire any such “answers”. I have no questions. I am not seeking answers. I have not “wanted to know”. Your assumptions about me are wrong, and you do not speak for me. Also, you have no answers, nor does anyone else. Life is revealed in the living of it.
“first of all who says RSSB is dogma”
— I and many others say that the RS path and cult contains dogma. The fact is, that there is a significant degree of dogma within the RS teachings, and that is not debateble.
“and i have seen tao being so arrogant he says me and my words as excuse(s)
the biggest excuse maker and avoiding person here is TAO”
— Is that so? … well then prove it. Show the actual specific instances, and what excuses, and what avoidance. This response of yours is lame and without substance or fact. It is yet another failed attempt to avoid the issues.
“he always says bluntly who cares who knows
who believes
all these things arent but avoidance and excuses.”
— You are the one who refuses to address these “things” (issues) and answer these questions, so therefore you are the one who is making excuses and avoiding. You have offered no arguement in support of your claims.
“then like this no one can go thru any dicussion when theres only one point view”
— This is exactly what we are telling YOU… That YOU hold and present only ONE very rigid narrow and fundamentalist point of view.
“and abt ur meditation experiences well
the person who speaks and think like you can never has any inner experiences’
— First of all, I have never even discussed my meditation experiences, so you are off the tract there. Second, you know absolutely nothing about my meditation or my experiences. All you are doing here is revealing how incredibly stupid (ie: ignorant) and presumptious and judgemental you are. You know nothing about other people or their meditations.
“whether u believe or give damn
you are not at all qualified to have any inner experience because u have no ability to understand things correctly.”
— Again, you know nothing about me, nothing about my “understanding”, nothing about my “ability”, and nothing about my experience. So it is now becoming obvious that you too have some sort of mental or communiction problem, and it is YOU who do not “understand things correctly”.
“u have only ur point of views”
— Yes I do have my point of view, a sober point of view which is derived (in part) from over 30 years experience and knowledge in RS, not to mention a very significant degree of over-all life experience and extensive spiritual sadhana. So I have something to back up my views and opinions and conclusions.
“this churcless will be turn out 2 be a shit nothing more than that. because TAO alwayas willl say who cares”
— No, I do not “always” say “who cares”. And moreover, you have given no responses with any substance.
“then let me know what you all here are for
to polish ur egos and satisfy ur mind.”
— No, we are here to discuss and question the important issues. Yet you have offerd and have discussed nothing. All you have done is to preach dogma.
“well i said ppl in churchless are ppl wid dog mind. they have no faith in themself”
— Wrong. You know nothing about other people here, or about their self-confidence. Every time you say something stupid like this, you show your ignornance.
“hence they have no faith in others”
— That is correct… I have no “faith in others”. I need no faith in others.
“they are just talking out of some unknown reasons”
— There are no such “unknown reasons”. All the reasons have been presented quite plainly and discussed numerous times. So your comment is bogus.
“or just satifying their egos by seeing a spiritual path growing to higher scales.”
— Wrong. Dead wrong. Nobody here gives shit about the expansion of RS. The issues here are the dogma and claims of RS, not how many followers it has.
“tao even said that kabir dad guru nanak dev ji havent said all this
well this statment shows ur igonrance n innocence.”
— I did not say that. I said that those people that you mentioned (Kabir, Nanak, etc) had nothing to do with the RSSB (except for Sawaan Singh), and that they are long dead and have no bearing on this discussion. You really have a problem in comprehending the issuses, and with your distorted and erroneous notions of what this blog (and other commenters) are all about.
“you really need sympathy of others and support”
— No, our points and arguements need no such “sympathy” or “support”.
“churcless people arent ready to accept the truth they all just wanted results”
— What “truth”? And yes, RS promises results, so where are these results?
“they are desperate for results without working hard”
— Wrong again. You do NOT know to what degree or how “hard” other people have worked (done spiritual sadhana and meditation)
“well TAO ur mom waited for 9 months to bring u to this world you mom was not desperate like u”
— But I am not “desparate”. Not at all. So what ARE you talking about? You don’t even know what the hell you are talking about. You are just another typical disturbed and confused and mindless RS goon, just as Shin has rightly observed. You are not open-minded or rational at all.
“theres a system involved everyhwere”
— No, not everything “everywhere” is a “system”. You are just so entrenched in your rigid dogma, that you see everyting in terms of that narrow dogma. Other people are not stuck like you, they are free of that.
“when ppl like u can murder jesus.”
— Totally wrong. I had nothing to do with the story of Jesus. However, it is beginning to become apparent (in comments such as this) that you have some sort of irrational mental differentiation and projection problems.
“so ppl like u can say what ever they want
but it will always consider as meaningless.”
— Only meaningless to YOU… because you are so confused and dogmatic, you unable to discern what actually is meaningful.
“shows how much ur parents cared for u and the way they bought up u.”
— Well you know less than nothing about my pbringing, my background, or about my parents. And as a matter of fact, in this particular case, you are extremely out-classed.
“may god bless u”
— You are a LIAR and a hypocrite. You don’t fool anyone. Get a frickin clue, why don’t you.
=========================================
Tintin said:
“Why do you believe that our intellect(human form) is perfect enuf to understand each and every phenomena on this plane?”
— And why not?
“Our intellect is not powerful enuf to think everything. There are things which can be experienced only with raised consciousness.”
— You don’t know that. And how do you know that others have not experienced “raised consciousness”?
“You want master to tell you everything before you experience it yourself”
— NO… that is NOT what I or others here “want” at all. I don’t “want” any such thing from any so-called “master”. You are completely confused as to the issues here.
“why not struggle and see it for yourself?”
— Where do you get the (false) idea that people have not struggled for and by themselves? Again, you are confused about the facts and about the issues.
“you are not paying anything or loosing when you are on the path and struggling.”
— Incorrect. The RS “path” requires considerable time, effort, energy, attention, limitations… and belief in dogma and blind faith in the guru. These are costly requirements.
“There is no one’s personal gain except our own, there is nothing to loose..then why fear??”
— There is no such “fear” in any of this. Again, you seem confused about the issues. And also, there is much to “lose”… as I have indicated just above.
===========================================
Alex said:
“he [Gurinder] does not say that the creator does not experience it, he said that he does not need to experience it.”
— This is a nonsesical debate. No one knows what God “experiences” or “needs”. This is absurd, and Gurinder does not know what the hell he is talking about… nor do you.
“is a question of freedom, not morality, ethics, karma, or of any other known laws. the quest is for freedom, from and for something, And he repeated himself twice…he does not need to.”
— Who “does not need to”??? Need to what? Gurinder cannot speak for God, and Gurinder is not “free” either. This is all nonsense about nothing.
“Why do you assume that we were bored, and that even if were bored, you corelae boredom with imperfection.”
— You are confused again. The issue (as I read it) was about God and God’s supposed boredom, not oherwise. And imo, its not about “boredom” at all. I don’t quite agree with Shin’s take on that. God is not “bored”. The issue (imo) is really about the ‘Lila’ of God – the dance of God – the dance that is the manifestation of God. Its not about “boredom” at all. Boredom is an antropomorphic projection.
“You have so many pre-assumptions. A creator, a soul, sending down, boredom, imperfection.”
— That is true, I agree on that.
“In santmat, the philosophy is straighforward. The mind is the tool and soul/shabd is the neverending fuel.”
— Not so. Thats a bunch of nonsense.
All these questions of whether there is a being, or no being, […] chaos or order etc etc. all are mind, and all pathways, methods for conceputalisation.
— That is correct.
“The answer by Gurinder was again eloquent and straight to the point.”
— I totally disagree. There was no point to it at all, and it was evasive. it was neither “eloquent” nor meaningful.
===========================
Swisha said:
“Faqir Chand’s words were about meditation. I know that you’ve read his words about him seeing his inner guru seeing bright light and hearing sound and experiencing intense bliss within. He has written in many words his experiences. Do you believe that he really did see the inner lights and sounds and then also the soundless colorless stage?’
— I have NO idea. I also don’t believe or disbelieve. And what does it matter what he may have experienced? That was just his own personal experience anyway.
“I will also post some of his words if you’d like to comment:
“Light manifests itself within you. You see that Light. You are
different from it whereas the Light is different from you. Similarly,
you listen to the continuous sound of the Shabd within you. That sound
of the Shabd is playing, whereas you the listener are different. Then
who is it that sees the Light and listens to the Sound within? It is
your Real Self.”
— This is all just words.
“Your Self sees the Light and listens to the Sound,
enjoys the scenes created by the mind and beholds Baba Faqir, or the
Guru within. Then who is the Real Lord within you? It is your own
Self.”
— More words and ideas.
“Your own Self is the witness within. Whatever colours, forms,
Light and Sound manifest within you depend upon the constitution,
balance and nature of your body. Your Real Self is not your body. You
reside in the body and you are the basis of this body. Similarly, the
basis of this universe is the Supreme Lord, who is the source of our
Self.”
— More words and ideas… and now beliefs.
“The Supreme Lord is known by different names as Akaal Purush,
Anami Purush etc.”
— These are all merely descriptive words or names. They amount to nothing.
“So would you say that Faqir Chand was schizophrenic?”
— It is very possible that indeed he was schizophrenic, but I could never say for sure.
“Chand heard voices from a inner guru. He heard sounds and saw light or experienced soundless lightless situations.”
— That may be what he has reported about his experiences, but I have no comment.
====================================
Joshu ji said:
“penny will drop, eventually, and mind will take cognizance of its own arrogant stupidity, till then the farts [“Shin like tAo, Brian and a few others”] will continue thinking they smell sweetly of roses.”
— You obviously have no clue as to what the issues are about here. RS goons like you should either post some valid evidence and some intelligent arguements in support of your case, or else go back to your dogmatic Cult where you belong.

tAo:
Allow me to disagree within the spirit of healthy debate. We are in an ‘ocean without a shore’ as Rumi says it eloquently. What this means? A zen master would say have a cup of tea. I say? I dont know, yet, its the simplicity and absurtity strike a sensitive chord which produces harmonious symphonies. Regardless of the poetics. Tao,God,existence,shabd,art,soul,mind,life,
consiousness,awareness,art,freedom,infinity,
Space,Universe,It,
the It,
to einai,apeiron,
plires,the kosmos, whatever-which-exactly-once it is named-is not the thing-itself, cannot be excluded from me. I am it, either I like it or not. Like fish in water,a reflection in the mirror. Because it is, at the same time ‘the mother of all things’.No?
the aforementioned text is a reply to tAo when he said,
— This is a nonsesical debate. No one knows what God “experiences” or “needs”. This is absurd, and Gurinder does not know what the hell he is talking about… nor do you.
This is nihilism and agnostism that I do not agree with. Following your train of thought, you can never know what i experience and what i need. Similarly you cannot know for gurinder or for anyone else for that matter. Crawl into your cave and see at least if you can know what you experience and what you need. If you already did that, then just add a little positivity and love to your perspective and you might see a little further ahead. I share Nietzsche pathos and optimism, when he says, in BOT
“Man is no longer an artist, he has become a work of art”.
that occurs when the artist is ‘exempt from the embarassing task of copying reality’.
this is a reply to the following exchange.
A.”is a question of freedom, not morality, ethics, karma, or of any other known laws. the quest is for freedom, from and for something, And he repeated himself twice…he does not need to.”
T. Who “does not need to”??? Need to what? Gurinder cannot speak for God, and Gurinder is not “free” either. This is all nonsense about nothing
Need, anagki in greek which means necessity, is arbitray, good is arbitrary, evil is arbitrary. The question is non sensical. He, it, god etc, does not need to experience these ‘necessities’ which are subjective. Now get into context, with a human being,with a unique persona, asking another human being,a spiritual teacher, this nonsensical question in public. Have a tea.
A.”Why do you assume that we were bored, and that even if were bored, you corelae boredom with imperfection.”
T.– You are confused again.
No we agree. With were i mean god and i follow your arguement to the dot.
A.”In santmat, the philosophy is straighforward. The mind is the tool and soul/shabd is the neverending fuel.”
tAo. Not so. Thats a bunch of nonsense.
answer:
(Mind, tool, soul, shabd, are a typographic symbols to describe certain realities. each one can mean many things depending on context. In this context they indicate a practice).
So exactly.the mind is the tool. nonmind is what we want. non-sense. I agree with you. It is a bunch of nonsense.
21.
IT lies in the nature of Grand Virtue
To follow the Tao and the Tao alone.
Now what is the Tao?
It is Something elusive and evasive.
Evasive and elusive!
And yet It contains within Itself a Form.
Elusive and evasive!
And yet It contains within Itself a Substance.
Shadowy and dim!
And yet It contains within Itself a Core of Vitality.
The Core of Vitality is very real,
It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity.
Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved
In order to recall the Beginning of all things.
How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning?
By what is within me.

With whatever little mind I have, I find that comments to most of the articles on this blog ultimately circumvent around the same point. The point is either for the master or against the master. That too not from the personal or vicarious experience but a host of cited literature which belongs to specific directional thinkers.
It does make a good reading. I must compliment the owner of the blog as a lot of pain is taken to collate and present the material. It is really helping the true followers of RSSB. It prompts them to follow the teachings more steadfastly. It gives them the strength.
I shall love to read more if things are not written in ugly manner of mud slinging on each other.
After all, there are hundred and one ways to say the same thing without hurting feelings of each other.
I hold no authority to reprimand anybody. In fact here no body is needed to be reprimanded. It is only a request to cast our views so that more and more people can join us. We may then be benefited more. IT IS PURLY MY OWN OBSERVATION.
With love to one and all

Dear Tao,
The reply to your questions is as follows:
1. yes
2. Master Charan Singh
3. 1981
4. yes
5. Sometimes. India
6. yes
7. yes
8. trust and tend to adhere.

Alex, you said:
“Allow me to disagree within the spirit of healthy debate.”
— Then what is it that you disagree about?
“Tao, God, existence, shabd, art, soul, mind, life, consiousness, awareness, art, freedom, infinity, Space, Universe, It, the It, to einai, apeiron, plires, the kosmos, whatever-which-exactly-once it is named-is not the thing-itself, cannot be excluded from me. I am it, either I like it or not. Like fish in water, a reflection in the mirror. Because it is, at the same time ‘the mother of all things’. No?
— Not really. Those are only words.
“This is nihilism and agnostism that I do not agree with.”
— Perhaps you don’t… but I do not, and have not touted nihilism or agnosticism.
“Following your train of thought, you can never know what i experience and what i need.”
— But I did not say that I do know what you experience or what you need.
“Similarly you cannot know for gurinder or for anyone else for that matter.”
— But I did not say that I do know. I simply said: “No one knows what God experiences or needs” …and… “Gurinder does not know what the hell he is talking about”.
“Crawl into your cave and see at least if you can know what you experience and what you need.”
— Why? I don’t need to.
“If you already did that, then just add a little positivity and love to your perspective and you might see a little further ahead.”
— Well I already see further than you can imagine… and I am not lacking in “positivity and love”.
It appears yhat you are somewhat confused about the issues here, and I am also not interested in your preaching.
“He, it, god etc, does not need to experience these ‘necessities’ which are subjective.”
— That is merely your opinion.
Now get into context, with a human being,with a unique persona, asking another human being,a spiritual teacher, this nonsensical question in public.”
— What you are talking about? And btw, I have no need to ask any so-called “spiritual teacher” anything.
“No we agree. With were i mean god and i follow your arguement to the dot.”
— OK… whatever.
“the mind is the tool. nonmind is what we want.”
— Is it? Is “nonmind” really what you want?
“It lies in the nature of Grand Virtue
To follow the Tao and the Tao alone.
Now what is the Tao? It is Something elusive and evasive.
Evasive and elusive! And yet It contains within Itself a Form.
Elusive and evasive! And yet It contains within Itself a Substance.
Shadowy and dim! And yet It contains within Itself a Core of Vitality.
The Core of Vitality is very real,
It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity. Throughout the ages Its Name has been preserved. In order to recall the Beginning of all things. How do I know the ways of all things at the Beginning?”
— By not seeking.

Rakesh Bhasin said:
“I must compliment the owner of the blog […] It is really helping the true followers of RSSB. It prompts them to follow the teachings more steadfastly. It gives them the strength.”
— But does it?
“It is only a request to cast our views so that more and more people can join us. We may then be benefited more.”
— Perhaps.
“With love to one and all”
— Insh’allah.
And thank you for replying to those eight questions.
=================================
Manish arora said:
“i feel again asusal sad and sorry for TAO..who is really so innocent”
— I think you must have your English language terms mixed-up. Innocent is far from what I am. So you are obviouly confused as to where I am coming from.
“make innocent ppl TAO understand.”
— It is YOU who are the one who has not understanding.
“Tao u asked few question from rakhesh ji and me […] and i can say in short i belong to a family where we are following RSSB from sawan singh ji maharaj […] I trust my master for various reasons..
i believe unconditionally in RSSB”
— Well that may be, but this does not answer my questions.
“but i really feel pity on you.”
— That’s your problem, not mine. And as I said previously, it is quite apparent that you are rather confused about the real issues here.
“TAO has only habit of creating is own stuff he says RSSB is a dogma..TAO itself is a man who himself speak DOGMA”
— Well then, please do indicate exactly where and what is this “DOGMA” that you say that I “speak”. Put-up or shut-up.
“alex and rakesh ji are much knowledgeable person than me who are taking care of ur innocence.”
— Well sorry to disillusion you, but I have no such “innocence”. You seem to have your terms mixed-up… and I am far wiser and more knowledgeable and more experienced than you realize. You don’t even have a clue as to where I am coming from.
“i cant talk the way u talk to me.”
— That’s obvious. Your english grammer is less than perfect. But thats OK.
“i would like to ask tao few questions”
— Why should I answer your questions, when you have refused to answer mine?
“1.whats ur real name” — That is none of your business.
“2.wats ur religion” — None.
“3.where r u from” — I reside in USA.
“4.are u an rssb follower or ?” — I am initiated, but not a “follower”.
“5.if yes are u initiated’ — Yes.
“6.if yes by whom and which year” — Charan Singh, 1977
“i hope atleast you will reply these questions with respect.”
— But YOU have NOT given respect by replying to MY questions.

manish,
you wrote:
“i think u got initiated just to enter RSSB and see what they do
got jealous wasnt able to digest and tolerate and indian sikh geting so popularity”
and
“i wanted to know who is this innocent man
an indian
or an american…”
Do you realize how racist you sound? Why should it matter whether tao is american or indian you asshole.

Manish,
I was not going to continue with this thread but you are not only Arrogant but disrespectful, Rude, Evasive, and Immature!!!
Like I said before to Joshu, if you truly follow your Master you would not be any of the above but YOU ARE! Therefore not a True follower but just one of those people who THINK they are…..it is sad and a sad reflection on RS.
Now get on with what you have promised your Master; living a pure life, being humble, sincere, respectful, helpful and QUIET and reflect on your so called inner journeys. It is only when you DO NOT experience do you feel the need to VENT latent feelings! It’s like a child who is so frustrated that he throws a tantrum and throws all his toys out the Pram! Don’t be angry at us, be angry at your Creator…..we are HAPPY with our Paths……obviously you are NOT!!

Shin, nicely said. I don’t understand why there is so much anger among the “churched.” Obviously they haven’t gotten much peace of mind, love, and contentment from their spiritual practice.
Manish and others, you should check out the last three posts on my other blog:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/
Take a look at my cute grandchild. Realize that there is a lot more to life than obsessing about metaphysical fantasies. Embrace the here and now — which, for me, recently has been a lovable two year old.
Getting angry at other people usually is a waste of time. Especially when the furious back and forth occurs on a blog in cyberspace.
We’re just having a good time discussing stuff here on the Church of the Churchless. If you enjoy this blog, stay and have some fun. If it disturbs you, head elsewhere. Smile more and swear less, that’s my advice.

There is one thing I just understand.
Whatever happened to the live and let live atidude?
Those who are initiaited why do you feel you have to defend your faith so strongly as if your world has been turned upside down by a blog which has the opposing view to yours.
Ultimately this is a blog which is an expression of view of someone who is tried the path for so many years and found the journey fruitless…and has been joined by a group of others who find themselves in the same boat.
Read their comments and respect their points of view because by the sounds of what thy say, they have put in dedicated time into the practice of sant mat but have not acheived the results that are prety much guranteed. why try and argue with them and bring them back to the fold. If the master is truly the shepard and all intiates are his marked sheep then he will take care of them himself.
just do what masters always say…concentrate on yourself and your own meditation. when it comes to sant mat and believing in it yo HAVE to be selfish and think of yourself and yourself only. because its your own karmic load that needs to be burned by yourselfves only.
I for one am not initiated but I have a strong urge to be. I come here and lurch quite often to read Brians posts and the comments that start off well but ultimately end up being slanging matches.
This Master always says that you should do as much research as you can before commiting yourself to the path. opposing view as well as the for view.
I hear the word dogma here used quite often…but I believe its the followers who create the dogma themselves over the course of time of a faith and the grouping of these dogmas form the basis of a faith becoming a full blown religion.
According to Sant mat there is four basic principals which need to be stuck to with the most important being meditation. why get involved in all the other crap…
i.e. guru worshipping. giving money because you feel you have to (like in a sikh temple or plate handed around in church)..rather than wanting to
Going to satsang isnt a prerequisite.
Doing physical seva isnt a must either.
but they are supposed to be tools to keep your mind aware that yes my duty is towards my meditation.
If you fel what Brian is posting insulting then dont read the Blog…move on.
I was always biased towards the for side but not by much until I read Kabirs Anurag Sagar (Ocean of Love). IF you want to believe it gives the full history of the lord, Kal, The creation of the universe, and the reasons souls ended up here and the method for going back to the lord.
it may be all bullshit but hey I want to beleive and choose to do so 🙂
Live and let live

….yawn….
Robert Paul Howard

tAo, I have indeed deleted a bunch of Manish’s comments. Maybe all of them. He went over the line. Increasingly, I’ve got less and less tolerance for people who come on this blog and say “This blog is a bunch of crap.”
Well, dude, go do something else. That’s what I told Manish this morning, but he ignored the advice. Amazing how these true believers say that people should respect the authority of masters, but they won’t respect the authority of the Grand Exalted Master of Church of the Churchless.
Namely, me. I don’t have many commenting rules. But, like pornography, I know inappropriate comments when I see them.

brain my dear son why did u deleted my post again
was ur mom in pain..
u all are bastards

u guys have done enuff
TAO has crossed his limit in insulting my guru
that mother fucker will not be spared..
i will have to find the way soon to get in touch with these mother fuckers and fuck them finally
u bastards how dare you talk ill abt my matser u mother fuckers
FUCK U you assholes

Dear TAO my son
the countdown has become…
start counting ur days my son…

To Manish Arora:
Manish, I am also from India. You can do a small favor to your country (and ofcourse to your RS faith). Please don’t talk before anyone. Your comments are making us ashamed.

Ravi, I deleted Manish’s comments. They indeed were shameful. There are guys like him in every faith, and every country. I didn’t consider Manish to be a true representative of Radha Soami, or of India. But his comments still deserved to be sent to the trash.

Dear Brian,
May I ask: how did the comments from this fellow differ from those of Ashy (Heller?), who only had his remarks exiled to the “I Hate Church of the Churchless” blog?
Robert Paul Howard

Robert, I got tired of taking the time to copy Ashy’s rants and post them on the “I Hate” blog. So I told him he’d have to start doing that himself. Which, for a while, he did. (Haven’t checked recently).
Manish can do the same thing. I didn’t copy his rants for the same reason I stopped copying Ashy’s. Too much trouble. They need to learn how to rant on their own, in an appropriate place: the “I Hate Church of the Churchless” blog.
(remember: the link is in the sidebar, ranters)

Tao, I disagree with you when you wrote to Manish ……”Your angry religious fanaticism and hatred towards ex-satsangis and critics is not what Santmat teaches. So to put it simply, you are a blatant fraud. You are not a genuine RS satsangi. You are in violoation of your master’s will”….I personally believe that Santmat teachings are solely responsible for making people fanatic. Santmat teaches that satsangis are chosen ones. Because of this view, Satsangis think they are extra special and slowly loose their mental balance.
Brian,
Honestly I don’t want Manish’s comments to be deleted. Let people see the real face of RSSB satsangis. Thousands of satsangis neglect their families, become fanatic, socially alienate themselves from normal people to save themselves from bad karmas and One Rakesh Bhasin comes and represents them and try to give a glossy picture of RSSB. No, Rakesh Bhasin might be one nice gentleman but not the real face of RSSB. Manish is ! and I have seen thousands like him !!

i think people here are mostly uneducated and illiterate,do not understand easily
first of all i m not representing RSSB
i already said clearly that anyone make fake comments on RSSB guru i will not tolerate it
and i already very much clearly mention I AGREE my language was damn abusive i take it personally myself and is not linked with RSSB faith
i clearly told that i have gone aganist the rules of RSSB that too again i take personally
RSSB has nothing to do with it
but you my dear son has always said bad abt RSSB
well 1st let me answer that i m not here to show my anger of ex satsangis or non satsangis all r free to choose their path
but anyone anyone means anyone who will say aganist my guru and use bad language aganist my guru come on dear son as ur father i will not tolerate..
and again do not link my words and views with RSSB
and yes RSSB doesnt want followers like you i m happy you all who really doesnt deserve to be in RSSB are out of it
gosh JESUS is so great that he done a great job by dragging you all from RSSB
because anyone you ill people are a blot to RSSB and hence by god grace ur all out of the
RSSB,its a nice relief
and i stand by my statament anyone who will try to abuse my master i m saying again i will go out the way…and handle situation in my personal way
and tao my son
why r u highlighing my words and stating it as threat
and teaching me rules of voilation my dear son
ur still a kid in front of me behave like a kid,
dont try to teach ur father..
i was again happy to see ur younger brother sapient
he claims he has seen thousands like me..
my dear innocent 2nd son sapient,grown up my child..
you n tao still dont know who i m and what i m,
so better keep ur views with u ..
even brains BRAIN is as little as his grandchild..
he too has to learn a lot…
and tao my spoiled son please do not teach me what to do and what not to..ok dear i m very much aware abt what i m doing and what i can do ..
you just take care of urself..
and ravi my dear brother i m sorry…that i used that language but that doesnt has any link to RSSB or INDIA..and why dear ur feeling ashamed,
people lie tao and others deserve this sort of language and treatment they do not deserve a soft n respectful treatment at all
and ravi have u been to these blogs completly and see how tao has represented RSSB and his guru..
TAO who is equally to dust of my feet has already gone out of LIMIT
and i even warn brain but i think now i have to handle it with a different idea so that i can seek a permanent solution..
wait and cheer up guys i will be soon back
till then take care..

Dear Tao,
I know that you are such an old, learned, knowledgeable and spiritual person. But you get enraged by the remarks of others. Probably in your spiritual uplift you have reached the state of SHIVA. This state of SHIVA is not easy to achieve. A little up is very calm and beautiful.
GOD BLESS US ALL
With regards,

Manish, by the grace of the Master of this blog (namely, me), I am leaving this comment up so people can see what a dogmatic follower of RSSB sounds like.
But don’t count on being back — at least not for long — if you continue to make insulting, ranting, profane comments that don’t have any other meaningful content.
You’re on comment probation. Behave yourself. Or you’ll find new comments deleted, just like I deleted your previous ones.

rakesh ji i need to talk to u personally can i please have ur email address.
its a request.

and brain i admit
and i m sorry for my behavious
i apologize everyone

what all i did was a bit of harsh way to find out the genuineness of this blog,well congratulations everybody i love this blog..
i think this is the place i will find the real truth for which i m also even searching from long time..
so everybody just cheered up
lets get back to the real work of finding the real truth
and brain please do help me and tao you also please do help me..
i m also on this path and seen many people faith trembling?
what can be the reason?
please guide me?
and forgot what all happened..
i know the way i choose was bit unacceptable,
but i have come to know that here people are more sensible.

you all might be thinking why i went to that extent..
well its just because i have never found any genuine website or blog or community which are open in discussion
i have seen many blogs where everyone is busy abusing eachother..and trying to prove their self..
thank god here its nothing like that..
i have keen interest in spirituality and keep on reading many books..may be kabir,mirdad,Buddhism,gurunanak dev,osho,rssb,bible,
but havent reached a point where in i can say yeah im convinced and satisfied..
so dear members lets continue with the blog..
thanks..
and yes brain you can delete all the comments which were from me..
and now atleast do not delete..
we r a member now 🙂

Whoa!
I feel like I left town for a week and came back to discover a tornado has ripped through it.
I love this blog.
Manish, don’t worry Dude. I can I understand it is very difficult to hear criticism about someone you love.
Sometimes we forget that.

Manish, pardon my skepticism, but I’m doubtful whether I can trust you. My intuition is that you’re putting me (and others) on. Meaning, in case this English slang isn’t familiar to you, you’re trying to appear to be someone you’re not.
I find it difficult to believe that you’ve changed from being such an ardent supporter of RSSB and Sant Mat to a “churchless” seeker of truth. But I’m a semi-trusting person, and will leave up your comments for now.

manish you can mail me on RAKESH1958ATGMAIL.COM

tao i said what i wanted to..
it was a circus indeed a wierd way to know that whether i m on rite place or not..
as i have been on wrong places many times earlier
so now everyone cheer up..
lets get back on track
happy blogging everybody..

and dear tao why r u after manish arora the fashion designer
he is not a RSSB follower

the prodigal son has returned for a quick peep in only to find the high priests of the churchless still at it with their intolerant goading rhetoric aimed at their church-going brethren.
the moral of the story is its ok to be a potty-mouthed threatening thug, but only if you have been ordained, not by Baba-Ji but by Baba-Brian.
First there was Darwins Bulldog, then there was Dawking’s rotweiler and now there’s Brian’s chawawa with an IQ of 170. LMAO, what a load of horsemanure.
Actually the analogy breaks down a bit, since Darwin and Dawkins were trying to champion genuine free-thought, not puffed-up north american intolerant nonsense. i mean when was the last time a truly great american mind was produced? hell they had to confiscate all the nazi scientisits to have any chance.
Do you really think its correct form to attack someone else’ cherished beliefs so brazingly and then get upset when u get it back? You high-IQ hacks are no more than a bunch of yeehah cowboys with no idea.
LMAO you okes really need to get over yourselves.
As I said, thicker than a sack of hammers.

[Note: this comment refers to some other comment(s) that were deleted by the Grand Poohbah Master of this blog. As I’ve said before, if you want to rant about how useless this blog is, go to “I Hate Church of the Churchless.” I have less and less tolerance for hateful comments on this blog. Passionate debate about issues: good. Ridiculous rants: bad. Such is my Godlike ruling –Brian]
Smack & Jalaludin,
You might excuse them but you must ask the Question, would the Master approve of such verbal & imminent physical abuse as directed by Manish?!
No….in fact no faith or religion would approve such actions.
Again I say, totally unbecoming of a Satsangi and what the faith is supposed to stand for.
Another thing, I am an initiate so is Brain & TAO….so whatever abuse is directed at us is being directed to fellow brothers and fellow initiates. If you want to UPSET your Master continue with this!!!
Bye the Bye I did question the Master on views expressed on websites and he said quote “they are entitled to their views”. Who is anyone to judge!
We have decided on another Path. Satsangis should accept that as HIS will!!
We discuss and debate here on the principals and beliefs of RS and other faiths. We do not judge and abuse others. But as you can clearly see, we are clearly judged by others who should know better…….Again I say only one thing to them…………….Practice what you Preach!

Thats funny George. Nobody in this blog attacked or not not attacked anybody’s beliefs. People have skepticism about certain paths and beliefs and they discuss it in their free time. If you feel attacked, just stop browsing these blogs. Its a free web and you have a choice to visit or not visit certain sites. I never visit porn sites, thats my choice:)
Have you ever seen a abusive discussion between Rakesh, Tao and Brian. At least I haven’t, even though they all have very completely different set of ideas. The problem is with cultic minded satsangis (a majority of them belong to this category). There are three kinds of them:
a) A true cultic: Who never questions anything. He is in a complete surrender stage. Though the meaning of surrender in RSSB is different. It means living in a completely delusional state without questioning anything. If you have questions, kill your intellect. Such satsangis will never visit such sites. They think they might be doing a bad karma by reading anything against RSSB.
b) A cultic in making: Here lies the base of RSSB. These are the people who think they have found something special and they are the chosen ones and everybody else is living in hell. They get angry and abusive with everybody who even questions RSSB. They can dump their own families in the process of becoming cultic, but with other satsangis they are obsessively polite:
“RadhaSoami Ji
How are you Ji
Could you do this for me Ji
I will be obliged Ji
Thank you so much Ji
Thank you again Ji”
🙂
c) Protective Cultics:
They are the one who always read such blogs secretly and defend the angry cultic in making whenever needed.
-And there are other nice, genuine seeker out there too. Like Brian was for thirty years. And RakeshJi is Still there :). They question themselves openly, grasp the best things everywhere and keep changing and keep growing.

hmm, Wasn’t there a comment from George here. Seems like it got deleted or I need caffeine 🙂

sapient, there was. Then there wasn’t. Now there is. Such is the almost-divine power exercised by the Creator (of this blog) as my Mauj (Will) flows in a never-ending consciousness cascade of whimsy and “I feel like…”
George’s comment fell into the category of those which attack the purpose of this blog, while taking part in this blog’s activities. That doesn’t make sense. But then, as you said, cultic types don’t worry about making sense.
I liked your own comment. You nailed George, Ashy (in all his name guises), and other similar types to the dogmatic wall. What they can’t stand is open, reasoned, discussion. They like to scream at churchless people who are happily talking, “You can’t talk that way!”
Well, yes we can. Like you said, if they’re offended by the conversations here, they can head off to another part of the Internet.

brain i really wanted to ask you why after being in one path for so long years you turned down to be the baba of churchless…..

and one more thing brain i wanted to ask you when you got inititated followed the path and later on have come out of it..
are u following some other path?
if yes?
can you gaurantee urself that you will be satisfied with that path and you are sure that after years again you will be back with some other conclusions and views?
and if ur not following any other path?
then what is ur present belief?

sorry i meant to say after years again you will not be back with someother views n conclusions?
like it happened with RSSB?

Manish, This Blog owner’s name is Brian not Brain.
Also why do you think there is a need of a ‘belief system’? Life is a journey. Just live it sincerely. Look at God in the eyes of your kids, parents, husband/wife, relatives, neighbors, pets. Don’t get caught in the material rat race but don’t be guilty about having material things when you have gained them with sincere hard work and they are helping you living the life comfortably.
Try practicing calming your mind, do your regular meditation but don’t be guilty and scared that if you are unable to do your meditation, you will be dragged by a imaginary bulldozer of a phony so called God!
Help your family in day to day chores, instead of cooking and cleaning as a free slave at so called sewa sites.(I know, Indian men have a huge amount of ego for doing house work). Don’t let your kid’s childhood be a history without you be a part of it somewhere in the cache:) Give the gift of free thinking to your kids instead of conditioning them with any cultic view. If RSSB is for them, they will be there anyway but blocking them from the other views will do only harm to them.
RADHAAAASOAMI..:)
(Bowing down, almost breaking my back…but at least I can prove that I am over polite satsangi!!

Brian,
I too am a little skeptical about Manish’s apparent change of heart and weird method to determine the “genuineness” of this blog by trolling. Not sure how that would achieve anything.
Sapient,
I fully agree with your comments to George. Manish was quite abusive and cultic in his earlier comments.
“RADHAAAASOAMI..:)
(Bowing down, almost breaking my back…but at least I can prove that I am over polite satsangi!!”
That’s funny 🙂
I’ve also noticed some over politeness in my local community, not sure where it comes from or if it is only with satsangis but I’ve always detested that part of things/people around me. It’s like why should I hang around after satsang and make idle chat with people I don’t even know, pretending that I like them to an extreme extent. I never understood fake politeness in general.
Manish,
How did abusive language and “harshness” as you claim help you determine how genuine this blog is? I don’t mean any offence. I just don’t understand the utility of your approach. Please explain further.

thanks sapient for correcting me,
but when we r born without having our control to it and we will die one day that too we will have no control over it
we think something and something happens
someone who drinks n smoke sometimes have healthy life
who never does..have a bad dreadful life..
sometimes who work hard wasnt able to earn a penny and sometimes who doesnt work much become millionaire..
well my question is everything is out of our control and we shud accept it there is some power behind all this control..
if man can think and can be the creator of many things
then the one who made man will be some one whom we cant even compare or even think anything nearer to him..
now we have to have a belief system,
because without any belief system how can we lead to a valid point..
when we r taught my parents teachers..business colleagues …so as by masters we r thought the way of life and the purpose of life,
IN TRUTH EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE IS A SHADOW OF BELOVED
AND PUR SEEKING IS HIS SEEKING
AND OUR WORDS ARE HIS WORDS
WE SEARCH FOR HIM HERE AND THERE
WHILE LOOKING RIGHT AT HIM.
SITTING BY HIS SIDE WE ASK
O BELOVED WHERE IS MY BELOVED?
RUMI..
WHERE IS ROOM IN THE IMAGINATION FOR HIS ESSENCE,THAT THE LIKE OF HIM SHOULD COME INTO THE IMAGINATION?HOW SHOULD I ? NOT A VEIN OF MINE IS SENSIBLE DESCRIBE THAT FRIEND WHO HATH NO PEER?
RUMI
and my another q?
are we just born to die?
is this the reason we born when we have to die?
then why we all are after materialistic world for the joy and happiness that last for few years till we r fit and alive..
well every single invention of a man has a purpose every invention of the creator has a purpose theres nothing without purpose
so shdnt this life given to us for a purpose..
and if we r just born to die
then why we go thru so misery
sometimes joy sometimes sad
study hard
graduate
work hard for career
work hard for money
maintain all relationship
marriage
children..
one desires gets fulfilled other arise?
we lose our health to gain money and the health which is lost while gaining money ..hatch back all the earnings as the expense occurred for health..
when everything has to be left behind..
no one is going to accompany us ..
so isn’1t it a valid point
that there shud be a purpose behind the human birth?

WEll I JUST READ tao brain and rose comment
and frankly speaking i agree wid u and understaand completely when you ppl say that u all lost faith in me..
i totally agree with u
and what way i adopted yeah i think i applied a very wrong stratergy at a very right place
and i regret for it
through my heart i apolozise everyone whom had faced my rude harsh n abusive behaviour..
actually i will not elobrate more because i no more think any of you are fool here..
i had very sad..bad experiences else where
where ppl directly abuse in their form discussions..
so i was just not sure whether this blog was among them
or really a blog where one can openly discuss things..
and yeah i also agree that there are many such satsangis u ppl refer to..
even there are few whom i hate
for actually i shudnt…but still i do..
i m also sometimes get carried away with few arrogant sewadars..
but i have one genuine point to discuss here..
we cant blame the master for anything,
yeah its also true that any action created by satsangi will have its effect on guru..
but again its sad..because master is no where involved in it ..
i think its simple as it is..
there are good people everywhere and bad people everywhere
its just the combination of good and bad prevails everywhere..
but if you all have any other point of view then please carry on
and yes my dear tao..i sincerely apologise u for my behaviour..
i know i choosen a very odd wrong way..
may be i think i tried a new idea and perhaps it didnt worked at all..
and yeah as i have done a mistake so in reward you guys can take ur own time to trust back me ..
and onething abt honesty..
why wud i have disclosed the whole thing to u guys..
if i wud been a dishonest person i wud have either continued that way
or else wud have dissapered..
but none the things happened
and i m here in front of u all guys
with the modest confession ever..
now you all r smart enuff to decide..
because as per my understanding TAO and brain both are very spiritual persons..
and i liked the quality of brain …as a writer the way he writes and express is very impressive
and hey do not think i m flattering you to gain any space in this blog
nope…not at all
rite now true manish arora is talking to u..
the previous manish arora born for a reason
and hence died..
he is dead..
and the real manish is back..

tao u asked me abt my real background..
well dear sure i will def in detail reveal abt my real background but first you guys gain that sort of trust in me
because my real background will reveal some real true experience which are very true
but rite now i do not want to disclose as you all are suspecting me
and those revealing experience will go void..
and i do not want to waste it..
i will wait for the rite time to reveal and will let you know..in detail abt many wonderful truths…..

well rose abt ur question how harshness made me know the genuiness of this blog
well in love we oversee many things
by being just polite we can never know the other person true intentions and feelings
but when you start abusing and being harsh..then we get to know how the real other person is?
because the way he react will prove a lot abt his intention character experience maturity and so on..
though tao replied me in bit agressive manner but thats again natural because my statements were too harsh and abusive.
i just wanted to know onething that after following this path ..though they have lost faith in it…but onething i have noticed they follow the principles of path which are anyhow good for everyone to follow
because theres no harm in it and theres lot to internal satisfaction in it..
when we stay cool and put hold on our temptations and anger..which is again good for health 🙂
i hope i was able to reply to the queries..
yeah though i replied in a shortcut manner as i m not that experienced person who has the are to express in a rite way like the one brian and tao does..
they express better even better far much better then me..
this is something i m gonna learn here..

and one more important thing i forgot to mention
no matter how harsh and abusive i was
i really liked the way brian replied to me everytime
with so much of respect and decency involved in it..
without loosing his cool..
gr8

And there are other nice, genuine seeker out there too. Like Brian was for thirty years. And RakeshJi is Still there :). They question themselves openly, grasp the best things everywhere and keep changing and keep growing.
Posted by: sapient | May 11, 2009 at 10:16 AM
…………………………………
Dear Sapient,
I am least concerned about the organization, RSSB. My sole concern is myself and the Master. Listening to spiritual disourses at any RSSB center in India or abroad either by Baba Gurinder Singh ji or any other preacher reminds me of my Master. That is all.
Truly, I had enough heard of spirituality from Master Charan Singh. My life shall remain too short to follow his advice on meditation.
MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL,
WITH REGARDS

Wow, such an interesting thread. Doing my best to see all sides of the situation… a bit confusing.
Manish
I’d like to speak from my grandmother self so you can’t pull seniority on me. Just thought I would get a little dictatorial like some of my elder brothers.
So… Manish, please have respect, do not threaten, do not use vile language and try not to over react. Lighten up brother.
tAo has been using a much more moderate tone in his views and he’s quite on the mark when he uses his “deep penetrating insight and discriminative wisdom” 🙂

Sar Bachan paragraph 160:
“Those who slander a saint and those who praise him will both be saved. But if a disciple of a saint speaks evil of him, he will be the loser. Such conduct from him is intolerable”.
So a satsangi need not be concerned about those who slander his/her guru for they will be saved.
Only those who consider themselves disciples of the guru should avoid slandering their own guru.

shamsita aka ashy (and his mate George)
“if they at all for one instant deem themselves to have any miniscule amount of insight or understanding then they would rather remain silent”
about that insight or understanding… not much silence from you two..

To those who feel they are highly evolved faithful RS followers…..
Keep preaching….
Keep satisfying your intellect by devising elaborate answers, which satisfy your urge to make others who quest….and seriously it is a quest for internal enlightenment feel more empowered by your continual justification.
You are not trying to change our ways but trying to justify your ways…..otherwise you would not be here.
I continue to love who I am and where I am going. I continue to live in peace with myself and all my surroundings. I continue to be in awe of nature as it is in me!
We have no hang ups……and finally and yet again I say to you………..Practice and make your Master proud…you only waste precious seconds…running away with your INTELLECT!!

During this day I had a sudden realisation or an epiphany if you like. I realised all those in the RS stable, cannot Stand the fact that there are indeed individuals who are initiated now firmly in the No RS stable.
They cannot believe or understand why on earth someone can oppose such a so called Perfect faith!
They are angry because this is not supposed to Happen. Their very idea of utopia has been shattered.
They cannot understand WHY & HOW such things have transpired.
And now they worry a ripple affect may result, or family members may question or ultimately their own sense of judgement be altered. They fear, how many more are visiting this site and others like it.
They fear the wrath of their own mind and are trying desperately to Put out this fire!!
As your own Master says….’Running around like headless chickens trying to put out the fire elsewhere, when your own house is burning down!’
The problem here is whenever you try to put one fire out another one starts. Do you think we few here are the only ones’ questioning….do you feel we are the only ones’ who doubt….My friends and yes you are my friends {though you may not feel the same} there are many silent and not so silent voices who doubt. Many struggling souls who now question the very essence of RS. Many who have been on the path for decades and been associated in families for generations who now want to know more.
Each generation is evolving and becoming a lot more intelligent than the previous {look at the vast technological advances over the past century and look at your own kids}. You cannot stop the wave once it has started and the people will continue to nurture their intellect and it is God/Creator or whoever you believe in who wishes it so.
If you desperately feel we are in the wrong and desperately know you are in the right…..then let your Master be the judge of that!
I think plenty has been said on this thread and hopefully all sides know where they stand.

“I realised all those in the RS stable, cannot Stand the fact that there are indeed individuals who are initiated now firmly in the No RS stable.”
well i do not know about others
i personally do not think at all in that way shin
but frankly speaking again its my persoonal view
i m surprised to see people who at one point trusted their own intellect in choosing the path and again after so many years of struggling when nothing much according to their mind achieved they came out of it….
now i ask you one point when the same mind accepted at one point to choose the mind and the very same mind had choosen to get out of it..
so dont u think its ones own mind creating doubts and shaking us to get into the trap ..
but onething like i wud again like to say
everyone goes to school one not everyone pass and come with higher grades students who doesnt study well tend to fail no doubt..
but that doesnt mean you have to blame the dean of the school..
its all personal student choice and his virtue..
“They are angry because this is not supposed to Happen. Their very idea of utopia has been shattered.”
i think they arent angry for ppl who had faith getting out from RS..perhaps they are getting angry that the way you ppl suddenly started rasing certain doubts after been following a path with devotion a one point
so this sudden change and the way you people are discussing is bit rigid..
so might they get angry for which actually they shudnt
“They fear, how many more are visiting this site and others like it.”
sorry to say ur very wrong in thinking so shin
as i do not know u know or not
while before getting introduce to RS path theres a book for who r new to this path
which says everything in detail abt RS path and ppl who have criticized RSSB..they even mention the books name in which RSSB has been criticized..and they have clearly mentioned after building faith and when you totally convinced and then you wanted to follow this path your most welcome..
the real true RSSB followers knows the truth and he will not at all mind seeing any numbers of these websites..
and onething
time change and technology change but remember ppl mind never changed..
from the begnining there were euff critics abt RSSB..and its nt a big deal..its so normal..
but as that time was not advanced critics happend thru word of mouth later on books and now on interent
and people here are more open because they can hide the identity..
if not people would never open up to this extent in they reveal their true self..
“Many struggling souls who now question the very essence of RS. Many who have been on the path for decades and been associated in families for generations who now want to know more.”
as i said above they will be people who will be having shaking beliefs and faith and without doing their utmost best and hence not achieveing what has to be theres a room for doubt and thats the beautiful trick of mind..
look we choose this path with mind
got distracted with mind
we r here discussing with mind
so mind has a vital role in playing our lives.
and in previous post lot has written about babani now i cant disclose more in detail i m very well known to babanis family and what all has written abt babanis story is totally untrue..
its completely a sort of rumour may be came out of gossip or from other path people..
as you know RSSB has three branches are the one from dayal bagh are always aganist RSSB beas,so they may spread many fake stories..
“Each generation is evolving and becoming a lot more intelligent than the previous {look at the vast technological advances over the past century and look at your own kids}. You cannot stop the wave once it has started and the people will continue to nurture their intellect and it is God/Creator or whoever you believe in who wishes it so.”
Again it depends upon individual choice..
1st by becoming more intellect we can only get more confused..
as far my experience is concerned i m associated with may RS families even my own set of relations n families who from decades and generations are into it
with the same amt of faith trust n belief,
they neither had any such question neither have nor will have..and this reply is at my own personal level and experience..
“If you desperately feel we are in the wrong and desperately know you are in the right…..then let your Master be the judge of that!”
well i really feel sorry for who are desperate..
as they shudnt feel any such desperateness fro others view
as they havent come to the path with their acceptance and neither they will change their mind and re enter the RS path again
we shud never interfere anyone and even try to force or impel anyone to join any certain type of path..
choosing it and leaving it both are their own personal choice.
If at the begining they choose the path for a reason the same they left the path for the reason.
but i have another q?
i think many have left this path not just out of faith
but they werent able to achieve the state of mind which was mentioned in RSSB faith n path..
and the one who has followed 30 years cudnt u give more of some time to finally check and get urself confirmed..
has u really gave almost half of ur life to the path i believe u might have achieved what actually have to be achieved..
but as i said its all personal choice.
and i have read somewhere in this blog that this master is so selfish and has no time to meet their disciple well dear now take it just as an example..
i have read waren buffet meet his CEOs
just once in a year..
so if a materalistic ordinary man who is just handling 1000 of employees doesnt get chance to meet everyone..
how come a master of spiritual path having millions of disciple can possible meet every one ..
thats practically not possible..
as ones mere life span according to 75 years is 27375 days..
now tell me?
how can the master meet everyone ..thats quite not possible
and again theres also weakness in us human nature whenever we met we start discussing personal problems business problems..which master said many times saints come for a purpose for a spiritual purpose they dont come on earth to make things better
they just come to liberate the souls and take back to the real place..
thanks

Manish, you don’t make much sense. The mind that wasn’t in a religion chooses to be in a religion. Then the same mind chooses to be out of the religion.
What is strange about this? If the mind can be trusted to choose a religion, why can’t the same mind be trusted to get out of it?

i do not agree with u brian
it was mind that is doing it role
and yeah its indeed strange.. .. ..
if you grandchild after 25 or more years suddenly one day come 2 u and say brian ur not my grand dad dont call me ur grandson
just because some one just for whatsoever reasons if convinced ur grandson to believe that ur not his grandad..
will u not say it a mind game?
and in west people are very much more rational very much more into analysing..
for analsying this life wudnt be sufficient and we will never reach to any goal or will ever get ourself convinced and satisfied.
and i have also seen many of the scriptures here show are presented with totally complete and different aspect and different meaning..
and its done just for personal own convenience to just satisfy the mind.

A Spiritual Lifestyle
What supports the practice of meditation but does not require leaving home, career and family?
A Spiritual Lifestyle
The journey awakens within,
when the songs of remembrance begin,
the child of the Father is lost in the Ocean of Love.
Holding the hand of the Guide,
through the path of confusion inside,
tears become pearls in the silence and passing of time.
The song of remembrance is sung in unlimited rhyme,
the song of remembrance is sung in unlimited rhyme,
Dance away, to the beautiful music you wanted to play,
dance away, in your heart, in your heart.
What is a Spiritual Lifestyle?
Regular daily meditation is the way to build and strengthen your spiritual awareness, experience the natural positive qualities of the soul and achieve freedom from fear. This process is greatly enhanced when your outer lifestyle complements and assists in your spiritual growth. Regular observance of four spiritual pillars, a vegetarian diet, and a balanced routine that incorporates physical and mental relaxation are the elements that comprise a spiritual lifestyle.
Four Spiritual Pillars
A spiritually fulfilling life is based on a foundation of four pillars:
• daily practice of meditation/yoga
• regular spiritual study
• spiritual relationships and fulfilling responsibilities
• the service of humanity
Daily Meditation Practice
Daily meditation/yoga provides the means to explore, discover and reconnect with one’s self and with God.
Regular Spiritual Study
Regular, daily spiritual study provides the right quality food for mind and intellect, the two key faculties of the soul.
Spiritual Relationships & Responsibilities
Through the experience of soul-consciousness others are recognized as spiritual beings and a feeling of brotherhood grows. By transcending the divisions of colour, sex and religion, relationships become more smooth and rewarding. The exchange of respect and spiritual love becomes the basis of interaction. The decision to deal with others’ good qualities means there is no longer the give and take of sorrow, rather an emphasis on acceptance and tolerance.
Spirituality is not an escape from life’s responsibilities. You have a responsibility to your immediate relationships—family, colleagues and friends—and it is in those relationships that your ability to apply what you are learning spiritually will also be tested and strengthened.
Spiritual Service
Finding an appropriate way to use your growing spiritual power and understanding for the benefit of others in the wider community is also a method of sustaining your personal growth. Spiritual service occurs on many levels, including spreading peaceful vibrations into the atmosphere and helping others develop awareness of their own spiritual qualities through good wishes and pure feelings.
Vegetarian Diet
In respecting and caring for our bodies, diet needs deep consideration. A vegetarian diet is especially beneficial in developing the clarity, concentration and subtle focus which spiritual development requires.
With an understanding of the power and quality of thoughts and vibrations, we also give attention to the quality of our consciousness as we prepare and eat our food.
Physical & Mental Relaxation
Providing rest and relaxation for the body is as important as it is for the mind. The body will not relax if the mind is not relaxed; however even when the body is injured or ill, it is still possible for the mind to relax. Meditation is an important self-healing component when one is recovering from physical illness.
The timing and extent of physical relaxation activities depends on your personal metabolism as well as your professional and family responsibilities. However it has long been recognised that the most effective time in the daily cycle for meditation and spiritual development is in the early morning, before the routine activities of the day begin. Taking time each morning to meditate, study and understand spiritual principles and values provides both mental and spiritual nourishment for the day to come.

Manish,
You say:
“i have read waren buffet meet his CEOs
just once in a year..
so if a materalistic ordinary man who is just handling 1000 of employees doesnt get chance to meet everyone..
how come a master of spiritual path having millions of disciple can possible meet every one ..
thats practically not possible..”
That is exactly the problem in my opinion. When RSSB started, there were probably less followers and the Master was probably able to devote a lot more time to individual disciples. This would presumably allow for individual coaching and guidance which is what a Master is supposed to do. How can a Master truly fullfil his role if he has no time to individually coach his students?
You seem to like the education metaphor. Well, if we take the same metaphor, one criteria for establishing how good education is, is how many students there are to 1 teacher in any class. If there are too many then the overall standard is low as opposed to few students.
Its not even that easy for satsangis to get an individual meeting with the Master. How are they supposed to get any sort of guidance that way? They are effectively on their own.
Brian,
I think you hit the nail on the head on that one.
It’s like when you choose a religion you’re encouraged to use your intellect and weigh up the options. But the moment you join this particular religion the mind is demonized!
I completely disagree with the whole idea of the mind being the enemy and the view of it as a separate entity. The mind = the brain and your brain = you. No separation there…

Who is God?
Who has been remembered as the Ocean of Love, the Intellect of the Wise, the Almighty Authority, the Comforter of Hearts, the Truth, The Living Being and the Blissful One?
God
I am the Ocean of Love;
I show you the path of love.
My love remains unbroken and constant.
I cannot forget even one of you.
I have so much love for you,
and My love is unconditional and unlimited.
I am the Beloved.
You have been calling out to Me for a long time.
Who Is God?
We are used to knowing things by seeing them, hearing them, tasting them, touching or smelling them. Most of us have grown up in a ‘seeing–is–believing’ and ‘hands on’ culture and we are used to perceiving things in that way. Because we can’t see, hear, taste, touch or smell God, the question arises – is God for real?
One can reach out to God with pure thoughts and be connected to Him. The soul experiences the response of pure feelings and spiritual strength. God is truth itself and thus can be recognized with the eye of truth.
God: The Supreme Soul
Like us, God is also a soul. Unlike us, He is referred to as the Supreme Soul – the only soul who never takes a body (gross or subtle, human or angelic) of His own. He is beyond the effects of actions and is never subject to the dualities of birth and death, pleasure and pain, success and failure. Being beyond the limits of time of this physical world, He retains absolute knowledge of the universe and all its dimensions.
Where is God?
God lives, not everywhere but somewhere. A thought of God almost always takes the eyes upwards, as though one is perhaps expecting a face to miraculously appear from behind the clouds or to beam down from the moon. Thoughts are powerful. They link one soul to another. If they are properly channelled, thoughts can even go where only the soul can travel – beyond the moon and stars to a dimension of golden red light, the original home of all souls. Immersed in the experience of the warmth of this light, the soul feels as though it is truly at home at last, and with God.
God – The Spiritual Sun
Like the physical sun, which gives light and life indiscriminately to all beings, God is the Spiritual Sun, giving light to all, whomever and wherever they may be. He serves altruistically, without any selfish motives, reminding each one of their innate qualities of love, peace and happiness. This is why He has been remembered in some countries and cultures by the name Shiva, The Benevolent One.
God’s Wisdom, Love and Power
People may wonder why, if God exists, He doesn’t wave a magic wand and fix things, making or at least influencing everyone so that they do exactly what they ‘should’ do. But God never takes away anyone’s freedom of choice. God’s wisdom is to recognize and respect each soul’s individual identity, freedom and inherent goodness. God shares knowledge – a profound understanding of the dualities and dilemmas of love and hatred, happiness and sorrow, victory and defeat, etc. – but He does not make our choices for us. The soul is free to choose ‘to be or not to be’, ‘to love or not to love’. God’s love strengthens the soul’s will to free itself from the distresses caused by vices such as selfish desire, anger, fear, ego and attachment. God’s power helps the soul to recognize its highest potential and to aim for perfection by practising the art of simple living and high thinking. Such practice by a significant number of souls eventually brings about positive change in the whole of humanity.
When you learn to tune your mind in meditation to the mind of God, then whatever the situation, you always have a source of help and strength to draw upon – an infinite reservoir of power and virtues that is only a thought away..

Why Are We Here?
What has a cast of billions, unlimited scenes and contains all the infinite possibilities of human expression and experience?
The Eternal World Drama
And the seasons they go round and round
And the painted ponies go up and down
We’re captive on the carousel of time
We can’t return, we can only look behind
From where we came
And go round and round and round
In the circle game
–Joni Mitchell, The Circle Game
Eternity: Time as a Cycle
It is difficult for the mind to comprehend eternity – no beginning, no end. Reasons ‘why’ are moot and mute when there’s no starting place. If I look at a circle, at a wheel, it is impossible to find the beginning or the end. Can such an image help me understand eternity?
As I look at the natural world around me, I see never – ending cycles everywhere – in the waxing and waning of the moon; in the gradual changing of the seasons; in the measure of time on the face of a clock. Nothing in nature is a straight line. Why should human nature be an exception?
The World Drama Cycle
The World Drama is a story of human souls, their rise and fall, victory and defeat, happiness and suffering, wisdom and ignorance, freedom and bondage. It is the story of the play of good and evil forces, and of the different stages through which human souls pass in five different epochs (acts). It is the story of humanity on its dramatic journey through the cycle of eternity. It is the greatest story ever told… And we all love a good story!
The Five Acts of the World Drama
Act 1 The Golden Age
Act One begins with the early morning scene of a golden age. Each individual manifests the divinity of purity, peace, happiness, love, and truth with complete inner harmony. Their loving actions and interactions are the threads of the fabric of society. These are divine beings whose respect for nature is such that they are served with abundance from the earth. Family life is fulfilling because relationships are based on mutual honesty and trust. The behaviour and attitude of all is selfless and sharing. The integrity of the soul is expressed in its natural wisdom and spiritual accomplishment. It is paradise.
Act II The Silver Age
Act Two continues with an afternoon scene in which a very gradual decline is taking place, unnoticed by the actors, who have significantly increased in number. Even though they are still radiant with love and peace, even though nature is still resplendent with colour and beauty, the original freshness that characterized the morning has gone. The actors are paying greater attention to external form and function and less to inner realities; the experiences of the senses are leaving impressions on the soul. Integrity begins to give way to influence. Material resources are spread a little more thinly to accommodate the growing demand. Although there is no negativity or sorrow, and all remain masters of the arts of life, the quality of everything is slightly less.
Act III The Copper Age
The change from Act Two to Act Three as evening begins is a dramatic one. It is marked by a massive shift in consciousness from self–awareness to self–forgetfulness. This forgetfulness of the true spiritual self creates duality within the minds of the actors. The first traces of conflict within and of external strife appear within the play. This fall from the grace of soul–consciousness into the illusion of body–consciousness brings with it the loss of mastery. Human beings become compelled by a search for power and possessions to compensate for a growing inner void. Even while searching for lost truth and enlightenment they are deceived into believing that accumulating material possessions will bring them security and peace of mind.
Act IV The Iron Age
Act Four finds the stage of the world in total darkness, illusion and despair. There has been an extreme decline in moral, ethical and spiritual values. Human beings are chained to the pillars of immoral practices and habits. Widespread sorrow and unrest have become the norm of human experience. The world is divided into many groups, many of which are pitted against each other in games of power conditioned by self–interest and expediency. The human family is at a breaking point. As the night wears on, the population explodes exponentially until the planet’s resources reach their limits.
Act V The Diamond Age
Act Five consists of only one scene in which the Director of the Drama becomes the primary Actor. He appears quietly in one corner of the stage and begins to unveil the truths inherent in the story of human life: the truth of the immortality of the soul, its true, eternal relationship with God and the true path to upliftment and fulfilment. These words of truth stir, in the actors, deep memories of their long distant past; there is an awakening. Standing at the dawn they can again observe the carousel of life in its entirety – from divinity to duality, from gold to iron – each soul melding with the eternal rhythm within every moment until it comes full circle. With love for God in their hearts and truth once again permeating their being, the actors dance their way gradually off the stage, united in their vision of the approaching golden morning. The darkness of the night slowly lightens into the dawn of the new day. As the curtain comes down on Act Five, it rises again to mark the beginning of Act One. Humanity has come full circle: the old journey of life has ended; a new world begins.
Has the script of this drama rung any bells? Have you ever experienced Dיja vu – the feeling that you’ve been here before? What if the story is true – that you really have come to this place in time once again?.

Manish, that’s enough preaching. This is a churchless blog, not a forum for anyone to preach dogma. I’ve deleted a couple of your comments, which were getting tiresome. Lighten up. Respond to the content of a post; start your own blog if you want to preach.

Dear Manish,
I am glad that at least you have achieved the state of mind as mentioned in RSSB. Keep it up.If you wish to strengthen your faith please go through the book Ruhani Dairy Part I and The Master Answers.
If you and other visitors to this blog wish to,I would love to have an answer to a question, Here it goes:
The title of this post is; A Sant Mat Guru answers a Question with : Don’t Question.
IMO this is the perfect answer, if not what should be the proper answer a Guru should give.
I know some Area Secretaries and some sevadars in the publication department of RSSB are also visitors of this blog, maybe your answers can be helpful to them.
Thanks

i m sorry rose you havent understood my point at all and gave the reply and just wasted ur valuable time.
its is not at all possible,dont ask and think and discuss abt the things which arent possible at all..
if there are 100 of ppl who are not able to understand the RSSB path and with stand their faith..there are 1000s of building faith..
but still i m not able to find any valid discussion point till now from anyone of us..
might be it tao,shin brian or u..rose..
i m seeing everyone is just trying to put ones point of view
and according to the others post just reflecting back with other idea of the faith….
well what all can say..
nothing much left to discuss anything more here..
because when all the mature people following a path any path not just RS and later on turning down their faith..
it self shows that mind and intellect are the tools used by mmost of the ppl here..
and when by associated in one path for 30 years and when you all are enable to understand the words of the master how can you people will understand the words of disciple..
well so all are welcome to put your points of view and can freely carry what ever pleases ur mind and intellect
i m off for few days,
thanks

Well said Rose,
A close member of my family, who is reaching the grand old age of 100, sat with the Great Master on a few occasions and said it was easy to talk to him and get guidance at any time…………Now he says it is nigh on IMPOSSIBLE…..Where indeed is the guidance….What pray tell is the purpose to having a living Master!

Manish, you’re using your mind and intellect to write comments on this blog! What the heck are you talking about, when you say that the mind and intellect is a bad thing?
Why are you using your own mind and intellect? Why do gurus use their mind and intellect when they write books, answer questions, and talk to disciples?
Because mind and intellect are natural parts of us, like our bodies are. They aren’t something separate from us, to be despised, they are us.

Juan wrote:
“The title of this post is; A Sant Mat Guru answers a Question with : Don’t Question.
IMO this is the perfect answer, if not what should be the proper answer a Guru should give.”
–If the master doesn’t want people to ask questions why does he have question-answer sessions? This is absurd. It is just a cop out because some things simply have no answers like, “Where did Sat Purush come from?” If he were honest, he would admit it instead of making the disciple feel like a creep for asking a question in a question-answer session. It’s tough to keep up the image of GIHF. I know. My wife doesn’t buy it at all. “Why didn’t you start dinner earlier you lazy SOB?” My dear, you know it is not wise to ask questions of GIHF.

A close member of my family, who is reaching the grand old age of 100, sat with the Great Master on a few occasions and said it was easy to talk to him and get guidance at any time…………Now he says it is nigh on IMPOSSIBLE…..Where indeed is the guidance….What pray tell is the purpose to having a living Master!
I dont understand why you need to meet master again and again for guidance
what quidance any RSSB follower wud require
completely no guidance
as every thing is clearly understood thru satsang
santsangis
books
and i think after knowing everything only one get into the queue of inititation..
and all gurus said one same thing again n again
DO your meditation
now what guidance one wud require
and how many times..
from the time of soami ji maharaj guru nanak dev ji kabir ji
everything is clearly mentioned
its just our lack of having proper faith understanding we without doing the real work get into brians mind and start analysing..
and yes masters use their intellect just for one point reason spirituality
they never form blogs
or any infinite scriptures
or force anyone
or impose anyone
their goal is always ONE
from centuries..
but all weakness lies in us..
we first learn the art from the master
and later on start challengning and questioning the master
strange
very sad
poor..
theres was a movie in hindi
god tussi gr8 ho(god ur great)
there with ego
the hero says
i have this i have that
i have made this
i have made that
i have found this
i have created that this and he goes on
god just reply with one answer
WHO MADE YOU ?
well if here you all can understand hindi
do watch this picture..
hope atleast brian will not take this as DOGMA atleast..
cheers brian sometimes i really feel pity..not on u..on myself 🙂

Manish,
I don’t think I’ve wasted my time at all. Ofcourse it’s not possible for him to meet all his followers individually. There are millions of them! But it should be possible. The stated purpose of a guru is to act as a guide. That, fundamentally is what a guru is supposed to be! Personal coaching and teaching is important.
You probably won’t agree with me on this but whatever, right?
As for God Tussi Great Ho. I’ve seen that movie. It wasn’t intended to have any religious significance. It is a comedy and not a very great one at that. It’s a rip off of the movie Bruce Allmighty. It wasn’t meant to be taken seriously.

Manish,
“A spiritually fulfilling life is based on a foundation of four pillars:
• daily practice of meditation/yoga
• regular spiritual study
• spiritual relationships and fulfilling responsibilities
• the service of humanity”
Ok Manish, you are a male in a satsangi family in a very male dominated society and you probably belong to a huge extended family.
The first two principles stated above are easy to comply with but what if spiritual relationships are lacking? I used to think when I left the country I was born in that I would have a family wherever I went – a satsangi family. Boy, was I wrong. I’ve come up against racism from other satsangis; they are only interested in their own little clicks; the hierarchical group of the organization are aloof and snobbish; the discourses are very dogmatic, negative and have a strong religious flavor; so none of this is very helpful.
There is a totally different vibe in Buddhist group meetings. The atmosphere is one of love, compassion, peace and equality. So what is wrong here? Surely the satsangi behavior must reflect the path that they follow? Why do so many satsangis turn away from satsang because of the reasons outlined above?
I’m still a satsangi and still follow the four principles. I just miss the support of the sangat and also the closeness of the guru, it just doesn’t seem right that the physical master is so distant in my life. I haven’t even spoken with him personally, I am shy and don’t want to stand up in front of everyone to ask a question, anyway I don’t have any questions. There is something, which a master passes on to a disciple called spiritual transference, so being so distant from him is difficult. And then again, so many people have had close contact with the masters and been thoroughly disillusioned; although this could be mainly because of the way the satsangis behave.

well i have come into conclusion that you poeple havent understood my point of view at all
i m not at all preaching
you said this blog is abt sharding personal opinions,knowledge,experiences and insight
and i m doing the same,
i m not preaching at all by any means
and i always asked valid pooints much better that you all have asked anything here
i always asked about the reasons of non belief and none of them werent able to answer any of my question?
because simply you people doesnt have any answers..
and tao who is anyone who gives 2nd chance
this is interent and everyone has the chance..
and everyoneone has the rite of speech of their thoughts and views.
and u also said onething which is purely incorrect that my master is not ur master
then who is ur master ?
well i think you havent read my posts completely..as i told u you people do not know who i m and what i m,
but anyways that will make no effect..to you guys
and abt that coroprate co and grandsons theory they were mere examples to make you people understand but sorry TAO you are not ready to understand anyones point of you..
so i think theres no point in discussing anything with you beacause u say others preach infact its u who preach
i never preach anything…
few post which i have posted which seems like they are preahings they were the articles i just pasted here which were didnt even belonged to RSSB..
but its all your lack of knowledge..that you took it in a very wrong manner..
“And here in the USA, we still have our Second Amendment right to bear arms (to own and use guns), so beware and don’t get any funny ideas.”
well dear TAO i havent threatened anyone that what all i said was not true i have revealed it if you can trust it its ok and if u can not its ur problem
and regarding the threats threats are always given by cowards..and i do not believe in threatning.
and abt 2 bear the right of arms..in that aspect you dont know me… .that too with lots of influence of many big daddy behind me..
in that case i m sorry tao ur much weaker than me,
u claim to have good knowledge than others which i dont even agree at all,
but power wise your not better then me anywhere..
because u dont even have the clue abt myself and my background..
and i no need to be beware at all my dear,
i m in that position where i damn care for anyone..you need to be careful though there are many many more much more stronger person than you here…who have many arms with them,
but anyways i do not want to prove any point here..
and please tao atleast start understanding the truth
i m not here to preach any RSSB..
perhaps i dont need
its just you put ur belief which is non rssb
and i put my belief which is rssb
but the thing is if any wud have noticed abt u in blog…
u just try to prove onething ur belief is rite and others is dogma..
and i know the mentality of USA people
they have habit of living life unsystematically without ethics and etiquette..
i still remember a note in a news paper
which said
Singer Madonna is pregnant with her current boyfriend..
so these kind of ill mentality USA people are made up of…thats the reason after jesus no other saints or mystics have been witnessed or had come.
because USA people only believe in
sex
lust
temptations
do not respect any other religion
have their own set of mindset
they all r selfish
probably with very less knowledge
they just claimed that they know everything but infact they doesnt know anything at all
and USA people are very much innocent and dumb
i remember reading in news paper of a real joke took place in USA
long back when a lady called a toll free num to get sort her computer problem
and when the executive on call said ma am plz 1st open that window..
she went to her room window and opened it..instead of opening the window in her pc..
that kind of dumb knowledge USA people inherit..
and once again i say i m not here to preach at all
like u ur self i m sharing my beliefs and experience..
and TAO i have seen no point any valid point in ur belief and ur stuff
i only liked one point in u
which i already has decided to follow
and i know after i decide it you people will with lack of ur knowledge will say hey see an RSSB dogma follower runing away from us
well that will be so dumb n innocent
i have already planned to quit this blog for real long time and have no intention to come back because this place has no value and its not every worth in any way to come back and stay here..
i just come for the reason may be i will find some genuine people discusing abt the path and their beliefs.
but nopes..the story here is totally different
brian and tao are just trying to preach their point of view which i havent seen any single person getting benefited
anyways theres no more point in discussing anything here
you people will anyhow will not understand though..
so do whatever u like..
think whatever u like
post whatever u like
it doesnt matter to me or any TRUE RSSB follower at all…
thanks tao n brian for being so patient with me..
hapy blogging tao n brian
stay in ur illusions and have a funnier life with no meaning involved in it…
i hope you lost years in practising
atleast i wish you do not lose any more years here after
and have a peaceful death indeed..atleast i mean..
good day..
bye..
leaving this blog
as for not that i cant be here or do not want to be here
its no worth to be here..its pure waste of time and life..
and for this above comment please feel free to oppose it in ur own ways tao i do not care dear…
bye bye

Manish, goodbye. You won’t be missed. Yes, you are preaching, no matter how you look upon it.
When you say I’m staying in my illusions, I couldn’t disagree more. I feel like I’ve woken up from a religious dream into vibrant reality. There is so much more, repeat, more, meaning in my life now. Because I’m no longer waiting for the meaning to come from some outside source — God, guru, grace — but feel it resonating within me. Repeat, me.
Lastly Manish, you lied when you said you’d become all churchless. You only said that so you’d be able to have some additional comments left up on this blog, which I’ve done because I’m a nice guy.
You might want to think about what “sat” (truth) means in your life. Do you really believe that it is OK to lie in the name of your religious faith? And that this is a positive thing in the eyes of whoever or whatever you worship? Just a thought for you to consider.

Once again: …yawn…..
Robert Paul Howard

Dear Manish,
You are right, and let us not have any disagreement or bad feelings. You are searching in your own way the truth. I do not wish to hurt your feelings. You simply want to understand why some people come to RS and then leave RS. Its alright. I understand now. Also, this is just a blog and I feel that we should not criticise or make enmity towards each other. So I apologise for anything I said against you or RS. I wish you well. Please excuse me for being rude or unkind. I believe that you mean well. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. Please forget whatever I may have said before, and don’t be offended. And please feel free to stay and carry on here and discuss your questions about people leaving RS. I am having to be away from here for awhile. Maybe I will see you when I return. Radha Soami
Best wishes, tAo

Manish you said:
“Again it depends upon individual choice..
1st by becoming more intellect we can only get more confused..”
Hello Manish. This is simply not true. I speak from personal experience – using intellect does not make you more confused. Everybody already is confused, whether you realise it or not 😉 Using intellect makes you realise the limits of your knowledge, and it makes you more able to reflect on yourself and your attitudes and actions towards the world, people around you, and living beings in general.
Also, it annoys me to see people claiming that western way of thinking is not about practice and is materialistic and devoid of any insight, where eastern is spiritual, practical… This kind of thinking just shows a lack of knowledge.
There is no such clear distinction between west and east, through history there have emerged numerous ways of thinking in all parts of human society, they are never absolute in one society although some would like them to be – this is where critical thinking becomes crucial – to examine different systems of thought, realise their limits, expose their dangers, but also find what is worthy in them. For nothing is black and white and no human is truly good or bad as the concept of goodness or badness is always just that, a concept, not a truth by itself. One may pursue the ideal of becoming a good human, but he can never say that he is such, for nobody knows what goodness means ( according to whose standard? ). To realise that there are other eyes that see the world and yourself in it is the beginning and necessity of any ethics.
Also from your comments I think that you have a problem with “materialistic” thinking, where I gather that by materialistic you mean devoid of values,joy of life, emptiness of spirit. I think that you fear your own “materialistic” side that could be revealed when you would be stripped of certain beliefs. I recommend that you do not try to project such problems onto everybody that does not share your beliefs, it is not a fruitful task. Sometimes true, sometimes not, but equating such “emptiness” with a lack of a certain belief is definitely wrong.

Manish,
I get really irritated when somebody gives me a silly logic of India being superior morally than USA. What do you know about India? Assuming you are a Punjabi (based on your last name), have you ever seen the male-female ratio in your state? Punjab has the lowest sex ratio of the country (and i guess in the world) because of forced abortions of girl fetus. There are less than 900 girls to 1000 boys.
Do you know how many women are killed for Dowry and raped everyday on the streets every where in India. How many women are denied education and forced into arranged marriages? How many women bear the abuse of their husbands every day and live in depression.
How many people close their eyes and pretend nothing is wrong when a 8 year old is wiping and cleaning your house as a forced labor for Rs 300 a month or even less than that. How many times in a day you give bribe to a babu to get the simple things done like fixing your home phone line or forget it getting treatment in an emergency hospital.
Morality is not about sex only!
And not everybody in USA is hopping around with free sex everywhere. Come out of the dream world of hollywood. Bollywood is very cheap too, all you can see is girls in skimpy cloths and men raping all around.

What a nice story manish said, too bad he started off by wanting to find tAo and beat him up.
At the end of the day i think that many people have posted valid arguments regarding or against RSSB.
Yet, there are certain elements of these critiques that I would like to attend to.Before I do though a small note, First of all I am 31 and an initiate, who has not been to satsangs for two years and before that another two. Broke all four vows without remorse or thought, many times. You get the picture.Read many books from alice in wonderland to foucault. What attracted me to Santmat was its conspiracy story (keeping always in mind that a story is map,not the thing itself) and its emphasis on practical experience. Thus I was similarly attracted to the gnostics.This satisfied my intelkectuality as these were and are my mental dispositions.
Practically I was attracted to Zen and its practical philosophy.martial arts etc. Between the two extremes, of gnosticism (textual knowledge, but its practices somewhat lost in history even though elements of hesychasm and prayers still exist) and of Zen, which asks for pure practice, when you sit sit, and its apparent but not exactly true, de-emphasis on textual reading or intelectual speculations. Regardless, both philosophies still appeal appeal to me. Hence in modern day,foucault.
Now back to my initial reason for writting and my critique of this churches critique of RSSB: A bloger somewhere said that God (Brian) created this blog and does as he wishes. That is not exactly true, people participate and the theme is created via this interaction. The completed text,has discontinuities but never the less creates or has created (through introspection, interaction w one another,time and reflection of its several protagonists) a discourse which gives A picture of Santmat. One perspective.And what i write now is part of it.The readers are many, and it has completely different effects on each one.
This discourse, and dont start with the anti-americanism bs, is by and large an american one, or to b more exact a US one, with a touch of UK, and Europe. A western one. And the issues raised are issues that are intimate or local to the West, and specifically, to pin point it, in blogs such as these.
These ontological, scientific, non scientific issues, are like 19th century people trying to define enlightment and rationality…semantic masturbations. As you see my gnosticism does not subside easily. That this discourse is not universal, and it is specific is very very important for even Brian to acknowledge. That this discourse is always undergoing changes and never is, again is very important to digest. And lastly, following its current formation and philosophical projections, the discourse leaves the possibility open that it might even be wrong and that Bank Nal might exist without peyote.
Ok, so you entered RSSB and meditated for 40 years,and have not crossed Bank Nal. Obviously that does not disprove the teachings. It does not approve them either. And from hence on the Sant mat discourse comes and says that even Jamail said “not to believe your master until you see with your own eyes”. The same thing the current guru says. And the churhcless discourse abandons esoteric discussions and directs itself to the social setup of RSSB and analysed until no end. Meditation is not dealt at all and instead the conspiratory mind (which was fed as such) turns itself against the conspiracy story itself (Kal/aKal).
By writting this i would like to emphasize the issue of meditation, inner experiences etc.
Is it surat shabd that some people have been practicing or is it dream yoga, or is it counting to 2,30hrs in seconds yoga?
You may be against this all you may, but the issue does not go away, and the blog has chosen to look away from it all this time. What is mental plane,,,and how does sant mat treat it. What do you understand of its its treatment. It is subjective offcourse as hell, like I told to tAo above. Yet it is there, like dreams, inner thoughts, inner landscapes, inner spaces, inner selves, inner stories, inner feelings,,,
I heard a charan saying something like, I only have one answer, your job is to come up with questions.
Dialogismos,,,which in greek literally means introspection, self-reflection,,,,and so many other English words, like meditation.

nice post alx

aix, I’m reading my first “deconstruction” book — Derrida and company (albeit in a simplified fashion). So I can relate to some of what you said about this being a continuing journey to discover the meaning of words such as “mysticism,” “Sant Mat,” “spirituality” and the like.
These aren’t givens. The meanings are found in contexts, discussion, and all that good deconstructive stuff. (The last part of the book I’m reading talks about how Taoism and Buddhism also are deconstructive, in that they are out to dissolve dualities and rigid logic systems.
On another point…sure, absence of evidence doesn’t mean evidence of absence. Like you said, one person’s experience (a mystic’s, or anyone else’s) is his or her own. Maybe they’ve soared to Heaven and the lap of God.
Maybe. Or maybe not. Pretty thin pickings to found one’s meaning of life on, or a religion. So my feeling is that each of us has to rely on our own experience, since there is no objective evidence that God is real or anyone has known God. This is why I write about my experiences with meditation, and encourage other people to share their own stories.
What I find, however, is that most people like to cite chapter and verse from someone else’s story — a holy book, or utterances of a holy person.
Anyway, the story telling continues. Thanks for adding your thoughts to the mix.

alx
pretty interesting, and yes i hold my hand up for likening Brian to the creator. Anyway enough of that before my sense of humour (or lack thereof) is misunderstood and i insult the churchless further.
On your post itself, i too find RS interesting and was drawn to its seemingly closeness to gnosticism, which seems pretty interesting in its own right. Seems to me one difference is the concept of a demiurge and i’m not sure if that can be reconciled with RS.

alx,
“the issue does not go away, and the blog has chosen to look away from it all this time. What is mental plane,,,and how does sant mat treat it. … like dreams, inner thoughts, inner landscapes, inner spaces, inner selves, inner stories, inner feelings…”
It would be great to have someone address this question.
George,
“Seems to me one difference is the concept of a demiurge and i’m not sure if that can be reconciled with RS”
From Wikipedia – Demiurge – in philosophical and religious language is a term for a creator deity, responsible for the creation of the physical universe. Gnosticism holds that the physical universe was created by a Demiurge. In Dharmic religions Maya is believed to be the illusion of a physical universe.
In RSSB – Kal (Time) the universal mind, is the name given to the ruler of the three perishable worlds (physical, astral, causal) – another name for Brahm. Kal personifies the negative power of the creation. Maya means illusion, delusion; whatever comes and goes and is transient; the phenomenal worlds (physical, astral, causal); the veil of illusion that conceals God. Sometimes personified in Indian philosophy as Maya or Shakti (Glossary: Spiritual Letters RSSB).
Have decided on a new pseudonym cause I feel its probably more befitting on how I am perceived here… illusion upon illusion… lol

Thanks flakey. Very interesting.

Dear alx,flaky and George,
With regard to inner planes.I once read in a sant mat book that the “soul” as it ascends through the various planes takes on the characteristic of that plane.Faqir Chand on the other hand,so I understood it,maintained all the inner planes to be
illusionary and a product of the mind.Only when he queried what he saw was he able to enter a formless state and then he only remembered going in and coming out.Nothing about the state of formlessness could he remember.
Under normal circumstances ,it would seem most people would find it impossible to even imagine,for example,a fifth dimensional universe.
The closest to perhaps a fifth dimensional state could be the realisation of “cosmic consciousness”.
I hope this helps a little.
Obed

Obed,
I understand Faqir Chand was some sort of hindu mystic, but was he connected with Sant Mat?
By fifth dimension, i presume you mean our present capability of perceiving four dimensions: x, y, z (space) and time. Mathematicians work in many more dimensions, and if you interested in physics it seems present string theory requires 11 dimensions.
Yes, I’ve read briefly on Sant Mat talking of such different planes that the soul is able to transcend. I am quite interested in whether this can be reconciled with gnosticism that also appears to speak of different levels of reality. I dont know if i am putting it clearly or to clumsily, but one wonders if these different layers of reality or planes of existence or dimensions are associated with correspond gods. For example the demiurge being a creator force believed in gnosticism to prevent our physical knowledge of higher spiritual planes, but whom itself appears to be below the ultimate reality as it were. I would need to study and think about the two systems more to try and make my points clearer.
From a comparative viewpoint to gnosticism and sant mat, i initially felt their seemingly fundamental tenent was was quite overwhelming and strikingly similar, i.e. both place fundamental reliance on a direct experiential intuitive knowledge (gnosis) over faith-based scripture or revelation.
But I suppose that can be said of many indian or mystic traditions, which brings me back to my original question to all the flakey kooks who know more about all these mystic traditions, as to whether there is not some sort of underlying basis which joins them all.
Cheers
George

Dear George,
The underlying basis which could join all of them could be the life process working through the brain and creating virtual realities in the medidator’s
ego tunnel.According to Thomas Metzinger author of the ego tunnel the brain is a supreme producer of virtual realities.It is possible that the virtual space generated by the brains neural network particularly by the microtubules in the axons could theoretically produce a higher dimensional space in which virtual realities may appear.The shamans for ages have spoken of these
inner spaces and so have mystics.The enteresting thing is that there does seem a uniqueness to each persons realizations which may indicate that it all
occurs in each persons ego tunnel.
Some researches are speculating that a fifth dimension is being produced by the electro-magnetic effect in the axon microtubules.At this stage it is all very speculative.
All the best
Obed

George,
Fyi, Faqir Chand was 100 percent connected to Sant Mat. And unless I’ve mistaken, I believe he was a disciple of Huzur Sawan Singh, aka The Great Master of the RSSB. Brian can probabaly confirm that. If you want to know more about Faqir Chand and also the other branches of Sant Mat, I would recommend checking with our friend David Lane’s research.
And btw, thanks for your kind response. And if you would care to send me a private e-mail, I’d like to corresond with you. Send it to Brian, and he will forward it to me, and then I will get back to you directly. I lived and worked in London for a couple of years back in the late 60s and early 70s.
Best wishes to you.

tAo,
Actually no not quite. Faqir Chand, had a very intimate relationship with Sawan, which the truth is we can never know how exactly its details. Surely,Chand praised Sawan as a great master, that adviced him for certain things that again we can never know their full details; if i recall from what I read Sawan told Faqir to go and act as he wishes, with full confidence that he is doing the right thing. He gave him a garland of flowers that Faqir did not take off for a long time.
Now,
from,
http://www.babafaqirchand.com/baba.html
‘….Once, he wept for 24 hours continuously for the glimpse of his Lord. Doctors were called in and they administered medicine to him. At about 5 A.M. Maharishi Shiv Brat Lal Ji Maharaj appeared in his vision. He drew water from a near well and gave him a bath and then told him his address of Lahore.
This vision convinced Baba Faqir Chand that God had incarnated Himself in the form of Maharishi Shiv Brat Lal Ji. So Baba Faqir Chand wrote every week to the address, which Data Dayal Ji had told him in the vision. Inside the letter he always addressed Maharishi Ji as God. After full ten months, he received a letter from Data Dayal Ji Maharaj, wherein he wrote, “Faqir, your letters, I have been receiving regularly. I value your sentiments and your passions for Lord. I, myself have discovered, Reality, Truth and peace at the feet of Rai Sahib Salig Ram Ji of Radhaswami-Matt. Provided you feel no reluctance in following this path, come and see me at Lahore”.
Baba Faqir Chand reached the ashram of Hazur Data Dayal Ji and prostrated his humble self at His Holy feet. He advised Baba Faqir Chand to attend Sat Sangs of Radha Swami Matt wherever available. In-ward practice as directed by His Holiness, became part and parcel of his life. And remained satisfied with his concentration on the Holy Form of His Holiness Hazur Data Dayal Ji Maharaj.’
the primary documents of all of his writting are somewhere online. He actually describes with great detail the inner levels, and there is one (out of the four) documents that is actully very very discriptive of Sant Mat inner planes, and their corelation with our biological body. Its an interpetation of the same cosmology that corresponce with what sant mat books say, yet it is different in many ways. Other analogies etc. and more in debth.

George,
An interesting book is “Radhasoami Reality, The Logic of a Modern Faith” by Mark Juergensmeyer (he is not a Radhasoami initiate). David Lane is quoted as being Juergensmeyer’s “research assistant on this project”.
There is a Radhasoami Family Tree – A Genealogical Outline in the book, which was prepared by David Lane.
There are different lines of masters from the original Master Shiv Dayal Singh (Soamiji Maharaj).
The Beas Branch genealogical tree outlines the Masters from Master Shiv Dayal Singh through Jaimal Singh, Sawan Singh, Jagat Singh, and Charan Singh to the present Master of RSSB, Gurinder Singh.
Faqir Chand is listed under the Agra Branch genealogical tree. His Master was Shiv Brat Lal, who is listed under Rai Saligram – an initiate of Shiv Dayal Singh. Rai Saligram was a contemporary of Jaimal Singh.
Most of the comments on this site are about RSSB, the Beas Line of Masters.
Cheers

The Sar Bachan excerpt was to be expected. Exposure from the inside of any organisation is intolerable to those in power…. but more than tolerable to the people questioning the authority.
Incidentally, the sar bachan is a hodge podge of bits and pieces, many of them rather questionable. THE WRITTEN WORD as gospel, is in this case laughable.
As an ordinary person, I don’t value threat- loaded dogma.

Alex and Flakey,
Thank you both for all that info. I stand corrected. I had a feeling along those lines (the Agra connection), but at that moment my memory was mixed up. I could only remember that Faqir had some kind of relationship with Sawan. I should have checked references before commenting. My fault.
David Lane has some good info on Faqir Chand and there are two books online called ‘The Unknowing Sage’ and also ‘Truth Always Wins’. There is also has some video footage of Faqir on Google video. David Lane had met Faqir. Also, although I myself never met Faqir Chand… during the 1980s I was personally acquainted with Dr. Sharma of Hoshiarpur (near Chandrighar), who was close to Faqir and carried on after Faqir passed.

Obed,
Thanks, Metzinger’s book does look interesting and I need to have a read.
It seems many of these fields, in metzinger’s case psychology, as well as many of the mystic traditions and even some scientific theories do in fact support a model of the universe where these is no “I” or “self”. So while i teased about nothing-ness i was trying to take in what was said.
However, these theories appear vague and often circular reasoning ensues with such highly abstract thought. For example, why from a logical viewpoint would such underlying ‘formlessness’ manifest itself in a universe with so much illusory form? I’m naturally retiscent to try reconcile science with spirituality, but have always enjoyed science fictin and your proposals are interesting – keep them coming.
However, my question above was more from a comparative spirituality viewpoint, which is do you happen to know what the main doctrinal differences are between ‘gnosticism’ and ‘mysticism’?
tAo,
Yes, I was wondering if he might have been connected with one of the other Sant Mat branches, since i saw he was connected with Harjit Singh who i thought was one of the satgurus, tho might be the wrong Singh?
(No problem for the email, i enter it whenever i post, and presume Brian is able to send you it?)
Flakey,
Thanks, you seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of SM, i’ve obviously got the wrong Singh, who i thought was one of Faqir’s disciples.
Actually i might ask you the broad question i asked Obed above, what would you consider to be the differences between gnostisicm and mysticism or in your view is gnosticism simply another mystic tradition?

Dear George,
I am sorry I cant help with gnostisicm and mysticism.My main interest is trying to reconcile
science and mystical experience and I have never really studied gnostisicm.
A good site to start your research would be here at
http://www.sacred-texts.com/
you may already know this site
All the best
Obed

Hi Alex,
You said above: “What attracted me to Santmat was its conspiracy story (keeping always in mind that a story is a map, not the thing itself) and its emphasis on practical experience. Thus I was similarly attracted to the gnostics. This satisfied my intellectuality as these were and are my mental dispositions.”
I’d be interested to know what you mean by the ‘conspiracy story’ in Sant Mat. Wondering if you are referring to the negative power keeping souls trapped in an illusionary state?
Also George has asked about the differences between gnosticism and mysticism, it would be good to hear your take on this.
Thanks for any info.

Catherine,
What is the Sar Bachan excerpt?
flakey,
The “sucession story” of Sant Mat caught my attention, some 2 1/2 years ago, through an internet search. Maybe the conspiracy is in the sucession story. The genealogical tree and the GIHF issues seem to conflict with one another. Can God be in several human forms at the same time?
Roger

Roger,
I agree that the family succession and mechanics of the GIHF thing conflict, and makes things a bit confusing from a theoretical point of view.
When a guru dies why would this GIHF property pass onto family member only. Surely, if there was no attempt to keep the worldly power that comes with being a guru within the family, the GIHF property would pass on to the most worthy person. If there is indeed a GIHF property that passes on instead of the whole thing being a figment of people’s imagination, how would the present guru know who the most worthy person is? Does it really pass on or does, as you said, more than one person possess this property at the same time? If so how can we tell?
So many questions

Rose,
Good points made. I’m guessing, each Sant Mat branch Master(guru) has a following that holds firmly to their “one and only” GIHF. I see a conspiracy developing, when a so-called fake GIHF comes around and challenges the supposed “one and only” true GIHF.

well rose its not true that the guru inheritance goes to their direct family..
jaimal singh ji has no relation with sawan singh baba ji and sawan singh baba ji disciple Jagat singh baba ji lead the path for 3 years and then sawan singh baba jis grandson charan singh baba ji came..
and now gurinder singh baba ji is related to him but not directly i mean neither charan singh baba ji son nor sawan singh baba ji son made the way..
perhaps they belong to the family but that doesnt and shud nt have significance,because raising these doubts i think theres no point in discussing these issues here..
rather then seeing and finding the truth many people are looking here for..
and i would like to also get into notice abt one of the most dynamic saint and mystic who came in sawan singh baba jis time i do not know anyone knows about him or ever heard….
he was the true disciple of sawan singh baba ji named as mastana ..,mastana ji with the grace of baba sawan singh ji was said to take care about sirsa…
if anyone would be interested to explore more deep about him can travel to sirsa and talk to the sewadars and disciple who are still alive who served mastana ji..
he was kind of saint never ever came on earth nor can ever come on earth again..
how and why well i will not comment about him i gave you the clue interested people may carry on and can trace his history.
he was the guru who led the way in his own terms…he was known as the miracle man..
so anyone who are more keen to explore the truth and genuiness about mystic please explore more about him.
may be anyone you find something worth to be known..
and may that known thing turn out to be useful for you..
but do not delay there arent many people alive yet of his times..
they are very very few..
and tao you said i havent acknowledged your message,
well i have done..but as i said i was off for sometime..
tomm i m leaving….and may be it will take sometime for me to be back on this blog..
because now i have realised what mistake i have done..
and this time i will be back with some reasonable conversation and discussion which shud be understandable to you all..
i havent read this blog completely,now 1st i will go through this blog completely and then after that i will be back on this forum,
but yeah i have decided onething though..
as santmat doesnt allow this type of conversation,as its just waste of time..
but i have decided to lessen my time viewing TV which i watch too less..
so i will reduce one hour of watching T V,
and devote that time here..
i will take it has sewa for myself..
now why i call it sewa perhaps i have seen many people shacky belief towards RSSB,
i have no hold pr right on anyone who is in or out of RSSB,
but i do not want any firm believers faith shud get shaked by reading blogs like churchless…its nt that i do not have faith in my master or i m scared,
well its just because many views which are presented here arent exactly correct and true..
they used saying of kabir also ..but in a very very wrong manner…with totally a different meaning..which is not exactly true..
how and why,give me sometime…i need to do some research for it..
as i have read many kabir books..but hindi version not english one..and havent read all his books as well..
and all knowledge of spirituality i have gain from my elders..my grand dad,my father and his brothers and many well experienced old age people..
i m thankful that my faith was built up by the influence of thew real people following the path,but one this is very true i have choosen this path myself without any pressure from my family people that its like a kind of tradition and i shud go by it nopes not at all,its like a natural belief and urge pulled me towards this path again for many various reasons.
i really want to discuss lots of real live experiences to just make him believe that the path you choose was right..
but theres a q? for Tao
if at all i share any kind of experience not exactly inner but still some sort of exeprience related to spirituality..
i really wanted to know WILL you trust at me?
there was a strange q? once asked by a disciple of sawan singh baba ji
he said baba ji if anyone in this group accept that they had spiritual inner experience then i would believe you,
sawan singh baba ji its really strange that you do not believe my words but are ready to believe the words of my disciple.
and in one stanza..of kabir it showed no guru nothing is required..
well i do not agree that point also..
as i said i will be back with kabir sayings meaning after going through it and discussing the knowledgeable people..
another q?
people often comment
god in human form
i have one q?
in which form we will recognize him,
perhaps that human has always was only able to identify about humans only
we do not understand any language or form to communicate..
if god cannot come in human form?
then it what from?
well and abt RSSB guru been stated as GIHF,
well again its misunderstanding..
they are here to guide us,now i m really surprise why many people say that its written in their books n stuff please tell me which book it has been written?
as i read almost every book,
they are not god..but yes they have the connection with god which is written in santmat book also and mentioned in satsang of sawan singh baba ji,
i remember one of mastana jis disciple when visited our home we were just having spiritual chat then suddenly he said “IF god is here then who is there?”
god is supposed to be at the place where we have to reach thru spiritual journey we already know we call it has sachkhand..
so he just quoted if god is here on earth who is there in sachkhand..
it was a worth to think..
and it also remind that direct interaction wid god happens and happened..
but yeh what all you people look is for proofs..
well talking about proofs it reminds me onething
when we all born..
do we anyone of us do we really know the feeling of ours at the time of our birth
what was our feel at the time we born.
we cry..did we felt
we use to see people do we remember and recognised them
we use to laugh how and why?
same when we go to our ending part of life death
every one dies..?
rite?
everyone has the experience of death..
but as it happens and the man goes..so we still are arent aware of how death is felt like..?
these 2 important factors of our life are unknown to us?
may be they are known to us in some other alternate way which we arent yet aware of?
because we born it was fact
we werent aware of our feelings?
its also a fact?
we die?a fact again
but we do are not anymore to express or to say people how we felt like?
because they were no more ?
so now my question
isnt it possible that interaction wid god is also related and may be sounds like the above feeling…
which we may feel but for some reasons arent able to disclose?
may be theres something unknown to all of us?
and who knows it never reveal it?
isnt it sounds like a child accidently sees someone have intimate physical relation,as he has seen for the first time he might feel that stunning shock.
and in vain he wasnt able to disclose this fact to anyone out of many reasons may be his lack of understanding,because of fear.shock.
whatsoever..
but when he comes to know by time..he then understand what it was actually?
and then he too get into intimate relationships but sure not to disclose anyone?
we know intimate relationship happens
we know a man has physical link wid a women
but are they disclosing ?
arent they done in closed doors?
if this one act of human nature is done on close doors?
isnt not poss?
that god exist?
and we could meet him?
but we cannot disclose it..
well actually i m trying my best to make you people understand in my language?i do not know how much i succeeded..
perhaps rite now i will leave …
as i m feeling that i still lack of expressing myself..
i will try my best the next time..
i can directly talk to tao with many true facts
but the important point is
will he trust me?
or how will he trust me?
and the major point when he haven’t trusted my master how can i feel assure he will trust me>?
or else asusually he will just give opposite reply to my post..
but still what all i have learned from my elders and spiritualy strong relatives..
santmat is the rite path….
but none the less people fail..
because of they follow the below
sayings:
EVERYONE WANTS TO GO TO HEAVEN
BUT NO ONE WANTS TO DIE.

Manish,
Glad you haven’t gone away forever.
However, you say that you have already responded to my message to you, but the fact is that you have not posted anything here since I wrote you that message. So I itthink either you missed what I said, or you may be confused. Nevertheless, I offered an apology to you, which you have not commented upon. You don’t have to reply to that if you don’t want to, as that is your choice. But don’t say that you have responded when you haven’t. I have not seen you post any response to me until today, and even today you really did address anything that I had said to you a few days ago. Perhaps there is some difficulty in the communication.
In any case, as I said to you some days ago, I hold nothing against you and I respect that you have your chosen beliefs and path. But that does not mean that you are right, or that your beliefs and those of Santmat are 100 percent true. And investigating that is partly what this blog is concerned with – with discusssing what, if anything, is really real and true in any of these spirtitual paths, beliefs, dogmas, or so-called masters/sants. Just because you (and other satsangis) believe certain things (Santmt/RS), does not make it all true. Some of it may be true, and some of it is not true. So that is what we are trying to find out and discuss here. That is what mere preaching of dogma is not helpful. We already know all the dogma. What we are discussing here is what, if any of it, is actually true? …and what is myth? So you see, simply making dogmatic assertions that something is true, does not automatically make it true. There are many illusory ideas and beliefs in the realm of spirituality and religion and mysticism.
You have said that you wish to show us the truth and correct our understanding. You are welcome to try to do that if you wish, but just remember that simply posting quotes from gurus and scriptures and the like, does not prove any validity. We all are open-minded and willing to hear whatever you may have to say, just as long as it is not preaching or presented as rigid dogma.
So again, I apologise to you for any harshness or antagonsism towards you from my side. You are a fine fellow and I am sure that you mean well. Please accept my sincerity and best wishes.
Before I end this post, I would like to address just a few small things that you said today:
“i think theres no point in discussing these issues here.”
— I respectfully disagree. Any and all issues are worth being discussed here.
“mastana ji […] he was kind of saint never ever came on earth nor can ever come on earth again.”
— Perhaps, but please bear in mind that that is only your own personal opinion. So it helps if you can acknowledge this. Thank you for telling about this person.
“and tao you said i havent acknowledged your message, well i have done..but as i said i was off for sometime.”
— Well Manish, you say that you “have done”, but I had not seen any reply from you until this comment today. So I think you may be mistaken.
“because now i have realised what mistake i have done.”
— I don’t think you have done any “mistake”, other than preaching a little too much. As long as you discuss the issues from your own thinking and experience, and in a respectful manner, there is no problem. I think everyone agrees on that now. So go ahead and share whatever you like of your own thoughts and views.
“i have decided onething though.. as santmat doesnt allow this type of conversation,as its just waste of time.”
— It is not that Sant Mat does not allow this type of discussion… Sant Mat does not prohibit discussion. It is rather that the current leader/master of the RSSB does not wish it. But you should be free and do as you like. I support and defend your freedom and your right to think and act and converse about any subject (including Santmat), however you so please.
“many people shacky belief towards RSSB, […] but i do not want any firm believers faith shud get shaked by reading blogs like churchless.”
— You may feel that way, but that is not your concern. If people are “firm believers” as you say, then their faith will no be shaken. So what are you afraid of? Why should you not want people to find the truth? Why do you wish to prevent people from looking at all the facts and information? That is their business if they want to read blogs like this one. You do not need to be concerned at all about other peoples “faith”. That is their business, not yours. Why do you think that you need to interfere with other peoples choices? Why do you think that other people should not be exposed to this blog, or not read the information herein? That seems rather narrow-minded and suppressive and controlling. If people have faith in RS, then that is their choice. If people want to read this blog, that too is their choice. You have no reason to worry about that, or to try to prevent people from reading whatever they want to.
“its just because many views which are presented here arent exactly correct and true.”
— Again, that is ONLY your own opinion. It is not necessarily the way things are. The views that are presented here are not necessarily wrong or incorrect. They may very well be quite true. Just beacuse you disagree with them, does not make the views and facts presented by other people wrong or incorrect. This is somehting that you still do not understand. You are very one-sided in your thinking. You think that this blog is all wrong. But that is not necessarily so. You may be the one who is all wrong. And so you need to bear that in mind.
“they used saying of kabir also ..but in a very very wrong manner…with totally a different meaning..which is not exactly true.”
— Again Manish, whatever has been said here about Kabir is not necessarily wrong. I know some little bit about Kabir, and I can say with a fair degree of certainty that the RSSB version of Kabir is not quite accurate. RSSB uses Kabir and it puts a considerable RS/Santmat spin upon Kabir’s words and teachings. So what you say and assert about Kabir, and especially about Kabir being supposedly mis-portrayed by others here in this blog, is not at all necessarily true or accurate.
“all knowledge of spirituality i have gain from my elders..my grand dad,my father and his brothers and many well experienced old age people. my faith was built up by the influence of the real people following the path”
— Well that may be so, but just getting information from other believers does not make any of it true either.
I myself generally don’t derive my views from what other people say, regardless of who they are or how much other people may respect and believe them. I derive my views only from my own experience and insights and reasoning. I don’t just blindly trust what other people may say. I agree with them only if what they say compares to what I myself know or feel is true.
“i really want to discuss lots of real live experiences to just make him [tAo?] believe that the path you choose was right..
— Manish, you cannot “make” me (or anyone) “believe” in your path, or any path. In attempting to do that, you are disrespecting my own views and my own considerable direct experience and knowledge. And I did not “choose” any path. I don’t follow any other paths. My very own unique life is my only path.
“but heres a q(uestion)? for Tao if at all i share any kind of experience not exactly inner but still some sort of exeprience related to spirituality..i really wanted to know WILL you trust at me?”
— You can share whatever you like about your own expweriences, and I will certainly accept that you are relating your own experiences as you believe them to be… BUT, I don’t “trust” the experiences of others. Why should I trust other people’s supposed “experiences”? I only trust my own experiences, and even then, I still must measure and determine their validity.
“in one stanza..of kabir it showed no guru nothing is required.. well i do not agree that point also.”
— You are entitled to your opinion. I don’t agrere with you though. There is no absolute rule when it comes to spiritual matters. No guru is required. Some folks may find a guru helpful, and others may not need any guru. In life, there is no rule.
“as i said i will be back with kabir sayings”
— Well… just don’t be preaching and posting reams of quotes from Kabir, like you were doing before. Post your own thoughts and ideas, not Kabir’s.
“i have one q? […] if god cannot come in human form? then it what form?”
— Response:
A.) First, you are presupposing that “God” exists.
B.) Why is there any need for a “form”?
C.) What makes you think that God is not present in every form?
“and abt RSSB guru been stated as GIHF,
well again its misunderstanding. they are here to guide us”
— That may be true (“they are here to guide us”), but Santmat indicates that the so-called Sant or Master is a unique embodiment of the supreme Godhead. This idea is basic to the Santmat doctrine, and it is evident throughout the RS literature.
“many people say that its written in their books n stuff please tell me which book it has been written?”
— In many of the books.
“but yes they have the connection with god”
— RS also says that as well. But what proves that they (the sants/masters) are unique in that? Many other people and gurus etc claim to have a “connection” with God too. Its all just heresay.
“god is supposed to be at the place where we have to reach thru spiritual journey we already know we call it has sachkhand.”
— That is merely assumptions based upon RS theological and cosmological constructs and dogma. You are obviously very stuck on and in these sort of ideas and beliefs… which you view as real and true… but which are in reality, merely conjecture.
“what all you people look is for proofs.”
— Yes, that is generally true.
“we all born.. […] same when we go to our ending part of life death every one dies..? rite? everyone has the experience of death. […] my question isnt it possible that […] may be theres something unknown to all of us? and who knows it never reveal it?”
— Well no doubt, there is a great deal that is “unknown”. But just because there are things unknown, that does not prove the existence of God, or sach khand, or etc etc.
“isnt not poss? that god exist? and we could meet him?”
— Anything is possible.
“now i will leave … as i m feeling that i still lack of expressing myself.”
— You are expressing yourself as best you can, and that is just fine with me.
“i can directly talk to tao with many true facts but the important point is
will he trust me? or how will he trust me?”
— It all depends upon your supposed “facts” and whether or not they are really facts, or just mere opinions and beliefs. But I (and the rest of us here) am open to hearing whatever you have to say.
“the major point when he haven’t trusted my master how can i feel assure he will trust me?”
— But why should I trust your master? What has he done to justify that I should trust him? Who is he that I should trust him? And similarly, why should I trust you, simply because you say something? I am not the kind of person that just believes whatever anyone says. I have my own experience, wisdom, and discrimination.
“or else as usually he will just give opposite reply to my post.”
— No, I don’t “ususally” do any such thing. I reply only according to what I think and know and feel. And that depends upon each particular comment. It isn’t always the same or “usually”.
“but still what all i have learned from my elders and spiritualy strong relatives..
santmat is the rite path.”
— You see, that’s my point… YOUR beliefs depend entirely and only upon what others have told you, what you have derived from others. My views and opinions and conclusions do not.
“EVERYONE WANTS TO GO TO HEAVEN
BUT NO ONE WANTS TO DIE.”
— That may be your feeling, but I don’t subscribe to that saying. I don’t “WANT” to go to heaven, and I don’t worry about dying either.

Roger,
I agree, problems do arise when people start defending their “one and only” true GIHF and maybe this is the conspiracy Alex was referring to. I personally don’t see why there can’t be many masters on this earth at the same time, as you say “God in several human forms at the same time”.
I believe the creator to be pure energy, the life force so to speak, and the Masters are those who have traveled the inner regions with the help of their Master (who is their teacher and inner guide) and they have then merged their souls (energy/life force) back into this original ocean of energy/creative force. So we need a spiritual guide who is in a human form otherwise how can we communicate with pure spirit or energy?

Kool says:
“you all looking for some proof, if David Lane or Winston Churchill or Barack Obama or Bill Gates or Stephen Hawkins told you all that they had a spiritual experience and it was verified by them as fact, would you believe them?”
— No, I would not believe them, not any of them… because why should I? I don’t care who says it or who supposedly has “verified” it. I don’t care whether a supposed great mystic says it, or whether a renowned scientist says it. It’s not about what anyone SAYS. It’s all about having substantial evidence, or the lack thereof. If they have the evidence, and therfore can show it, then lets see it. Simply saying “verified” or its a “fact” means nothing without the actual evidence.
“So if for some strange prudent reason you might believe one of these noble men of society that spiritual experience is verifiable and true”
— But you see, I DON”T “believe” anyone… unless they can produce conclusive evidence to support their claim, or their supposed “verifiable” experience. To say “verifiable” means that everyone can see and thus verify the proof of it.
“how come you sit here in all your skeptic wisdom and deny what any of the saints tell you categorically to be the case?”
— For the very same reason… Simply because they have not, and they cannot, show any substantial evidence. They cannot prove it and they have not proven it. It is all just conjecture and hearsay. Inner planes, sach khand, sants & sat-gurus, marked souls, and all the rest. It doesn’t matter WHAT “the saints tell you categorically to be the case”. It doesn’t matter what anyone “tells”. Its all just abstract ideas and beliefs.
So you haven’t said anything of substance here.
And I don’t care WHO it is that says they’ve had some “experience” or other. I’ve had experiences too, but it doesn’t prove anything. Experiences, even if they did happen, don’t prove anything.
Why is this so difficult for believers to understand? Why is it so difficult to understand that its only mere beliefs and hearsay that you are putting forth, and not proven facts?

No, no, I was not referring to that conspiracy, I was just using coloqual word to describe the cosmogeny of Sant mat and its similarities with Gnosticism. Its conspiracy, when viewed with our understanding of consiparacy. But this has tricks, because the word conspiracy can be used in many context. People were taken to the gulags because they were conspiring against the Soviet State; were they wrong? Once a conspiracy is verified to have substantial grounds to exist, it is no longer conspiracy.
Thus conspiracy can be the weapon the supressed use agains the hegemonic power, and can also be the weapon used by manevolant people to take control of a system. Or it can, as in the case of Soviet, to be used, to dismiss ALL criticism and place them in the category of Conspiracy theories, hence not based on truth. I should not have used it in retrospect.

well tao that is the major problem i m facing here..
you say you just reply according to ur own preception and thoughts and ur own wisdom,
then tell me how can we take this discussion further,
because everytime you just reply back in contrast,
like this we will never come into an conclusion,
for the results i think the most of people searching for the result,the truth
well again u mistook that my belief depends on others not at all,
well we always learn everything from our elders,and my personal views are i respect my elders and especially the enlightened man of my family my grandad who is no more,
i like everyone trust my family people,
i know they would never lie me,
i know they would never want their only son to follow the path which leads no where,
my family is so much closely involved with RSSB gurus from the time of sawan singh ji,
my grandad was closesly associated with charan singh baba ji,
i know thats not the exact reply you will be accepting for,
but tao i have many many limitations that i cant go ahead than that…
i can merely try,
and again please do not think i m afraid of anything that others wud might come here and so,
i m not at all afraid
its very simple tao,RSSB critics are there way back from 100 years,this is nothing new..
just the medium is new and thats thru internet and blogging,
even soon i m planning something that i will recommend every RSSB to visit this website and go thru it and then decide whether to follow RSSB or not,because it will really help them a lot to stiff there trust and faith,
and tao please understand me,
i m not at all here to preach of popularise the path neither i m defending,
but like you said you are here with ur experiences and i m here with mine,
but the thing is i m unable to express is exact manner,
and you said theres no system rules for anything
come on dear tao
theres is system in each an every thing in our life
a human takes 9 months to come to this earth
is nt it a system,
we faces 4 seasons,
summer,autum,spring n winter
isnt not a system
we have 24 hrs a day
and the day starts from morning to afternoon to evening to night
isnt not a system…
first of all my another point
science doesnt believe god..
well i never trust science…which is just merely performing and finding and inventing those experminents which are done on the platform called earth…which is again the result of the creator…
ok lets take god to be a power,
and dear tao i already said god has no form…
kkan khan main hain ram,
theres is god in each and every tiny piece of stone.
i never said god has a form.
if we believe any kind of faith or path
everywhere its mention god has no form..and god if formless,,
again to be frank its experience of others,
but tao a ?for u..
u said i do not believe in others…i believe in myself..
but whatever we have gained learned and known is from others..
if we ourself left alone in this world perhaps we wud have known nothing…
we learn from others always,,
we learn to talk from our parents
we learn to walk from our parents
we learn the meaning of words from our teachers…
we learn music from music teacher
we learn dance from dance teacher
whatever we learn we have to have a teacher or a guide..
today my parents taught me everything thats the reason i m able to converse here..
if they wud have left be alone and thought that he will automatically grow and gain knowledge it wud have not be possible at all by any means or chance..
we always need guide,
if we go to a new place to visit we need a guide..
we need guide every time everywhere..
and yeah who believe and proofs that so called gurus are connected to god..
now this question is such..
finding the answer and making it explain wud rather be a task,
and u said i dont trust your master..
you are talking abt the person at one time whom u trusted,but today you dont..
santmat or any other path needs complete surrender..
and tao why seeing many other satangis and sewadars u change ur views..
they are just any other human beings
being RSSB doesnt mean he wil def lead to sanchkhand or he is special not at all
by merely calling RS doesnt show any advantage,unless until u follow the way it is…
i too sometimes feel sad that many satsangis and sewadars..are really spoiling rssb name..but cant help..there will be such kind of people everywhere..
but what we shud concentrate is only one thing
ur trust and faith in master
now tao i dont need reply for this comment of mine
its purely my trust n believe
one day one of my relative also asked the question
manish do u know anyone who has seen the light and heard the sound..he meant abt inner journey
now interesting he was asking me not lack of faith but lack of devoting time and giving time for spiritual practise he is so much involved in his worldly tasks that he merely has no time for spiritual practise..
but was eager to know..and has full faith though …
and again no one whom i know has blind faith in rssb..all are their for their own reasons and own beliefs and own experiences..
and tao again u said i can share my experience..
my tao its very strange again…
i think you are among one who really wanted to get inside completely and explore things completely…
u r also eager for the final destination or really experience god ..like we all really have that urge to see god seek god…
meet god and ourself experience god..
and onething you have always consider myth abt all the books available abt mystics
i really do not understand how will you then understand anything..
u always take my words wrong
always just reply to me post with a contrast effect in it..
theres no acception of my words wid you any time..
if theres something well written from me which is really true for that you said why shud i believe you..
its all ur opinion
when in these kind of discussions where will we lead..
i think no where..
i regards my master as the guiding force of my soul..
and i believe him trust him again i said many times for various reasons
being born in RSSB family and being associated with them from past 100 years …
is not the reason of my faith in RSSB
i have also been to various paths seen them.tried to understand them
but finally got back to RSSB
again do not think i m putting my opinion
this is my expereince but not a blind faith one..
i said have many live experiences of people who are all still alive and i know them..
and its interesting i never thought i will go for inititation,because i always had a plan for my inititation..and i was waiting for a particular time ..
but that was my immtaurity..
it just all happened..
so suddenly..
i too have a very nice beautiful experience of my own initiation but i will not share any of my experience unless until i see tao understanding me..
though my initiation experience was not spiritual but still it was a very sacred experience which even built my trust more
in my master.
you know tao i want to genuinely listen to u
but when i read all ur post i havent find the real true deserved reason for coming out of this path..
once again tao please dont think i m convincing you or want you to be on this path..
my symapthy and effection towards you is merely for that you gave so much of years to RSSB and ur a nice gentleman….
i even said that babani story mentioned was not at all true
what all happened with babani we all knew it
as i said in my post we r very well associated with his family..and still are..
and i would like to tell u one truth which i havent..you think i feel unsecure or i m afraid people leaving RSSB..nope
i again say they leave because of lack of complete understanding and these are not my own words..i m not that knowledgeable person to say this..
but these are the words from wise people and i too found enuff truth in their explanations..
and tao even my uncle who has been the secretrary one of the branch of rssb..
himself failed in following the path
and now he is also almost out of the path
he is born in the same family as i did..
but that is his complete fault and his ignorance and lack of understanding the path and the main thing he hasnt followed the path the way he shud
when one is not able to follow the path ,they way one shud ,how can he gain belief and any expereince, not at all..its not possible,
without getting visa if i keep cursing the department that they are not allowing my ticket to america theres no point in argue..
theres again a system a process involve in visa registration if i need to travel to USA,
but onething tao ..
whatever we have come to know..
that theres is a supreme power and theres a way to meet him and find him
we have come to know only from mystics..
saints
if not we wudnt have known this fact
and i said i have enuff evidence enuff reasons to believe and follow..
but again i m not here to impose my beliefs not at all, i m not here to convince anyone..
i m just here to defend ofcourse but not for my masters
but the allegations which are put on master and RSSB..
which are surely not true..
and yes tao take some more time in knowing n understaning me
perhaps the day ur fine n ok and can trust me
i invite u to india
where i can take you to some places and make meet few people where you urself can get to know the truth without depending on any mediator..
i assure you will get may be not all but many many answers you are looking for..
i really would wish who all are here who has given so much of time and life to rssb
if can trust me
everyone all together come to india
we will have a small tour all together
may be perhaps we will find something for sure..
its a thought
lets see whether this idea of going to a tour together happens ever in future..
but do not delay for long..
as i said very few people left out there..
.

tao i read the post again..in which u replied me for my previous post
if you havent yet heard abt mastana ji who was there in sirsa..
who was know as bulchistani wale mastani ji as he was actually from pakistan..
later after partition settled in india..
well tao then you guys have been no yet introduced to complete mysticism…
when i call true people and mysticism..i use these true real words a lot because i talk abt live person
just not the literature written in books,
books gives us idea and belief but real people interacting with them knowing them gives us faith and trust..
si explore about him as well…he is the only saint who challenged KAL and theres an incident abt a meeting between mastana ji and KAL
he has also drawn the picture of KAL
which yet i have to witness myself soon may be i will get chance 2 visit his place..
in sirsa
where i can see the picture drawn by him
and the tunnel where he use to meditate..
and he belong to the branch of RSSB who was inititated thru sawan singh ji,
but he was also man with spiritual power..
you know or not being RSSB disciple,
his way of spiritual journey was completely different,
his was of preaching was also competely different,
you will find many interesting facts if you get to explore more abt this saint..
who just passed away few years ago..

but do not mistake him with RAM RAHIM of sirsa..
though he is the one who is presently leading from the same group
but forcely without any permission of mastana ji
as mastana ji clearly said that after him no one will taking charge of his dera..
he just gave took look after dera and its disciple to manager saheb..who also died just couple of years ago..
so dont mistake mastana ji with ram rahim singh..

Dear Manish,
Where you are now is exactly where you are meant to be;what you are now is exactly what you are meant to be.
You are not the boss.There is a mystery that leads you and all you can do is follow whether you know it or you dont;whether you like it or you dont.That is the way it is.Just accept and love it.
Meditate until smoke comes out of your ears or dont meditate at all.When you are meant to go in you will go in nothing can stop this happening.The choice is not yours.There is no such thing as a personal success in meditation.It was never an anybodies in the first place.
To whom are you preaching when there is nobody home to listen.If you drop your story what is there?
All the best
Obed

well sorry obed it was just sharing of few sayings
but not at all preaching..i dont want to preach,
i m no one to preach
and i dont even like to preach
i m just expressing my experience and reasons..
and few sayings..
you just read it ..
if u think u like it its ok or leave it
its as simple as it is..

Dear Manish,
No need to say sorry.There is only love and acceptance.
Love
Obed

thanks obed and same 2 you

brain ur smart u always delete all my valuable posts
so no one can see and read them
but why do u do it?

Manish, I delete your preachy posts. Not long ago you said that you’d become all churchless and weren’t sure what was true, and wanted another chance at being allowed to post comments here.
You have six of the last ten comments on this blog. I deleted a few that were solely preaching the Sant Mat/RSSB teachings, just like I do with people who post quotes from the Bible or whatever. This is a place to discuss, not to preach.
You should feel good that I’ve left up most of your recent comments. You’ve reverted to your preachiness, which you said you had left behind.
It’s simple, Manish: this blog is called Church of the Churchless. It is for people who don’t believe in any particular religion and are open to discussing evidence about what faiths are true, if any.
You’re not that sort of person. So I, along with others, keep wondering why you’re here. If it is to preach to the churchless, that isn’t appropriate. You should start your own blog if you merely want to keep repeating dogma, or challenge why this blog exists.

i m on my way to that task brian i need time..
i already have planned to start a blog which will be kind of urs..in which we will recommend all the satsangis..initititated n non initiated..to visit churchless and go through the complete rssb critics column…
and brian i also many times said i do not want to preach and i dont preach..
and i m here for not that i have become churchless
for god sake i have not..
i m here for u for tao
and you know why?
well will repeat again
you all are initiated RSSB santsagis
who after being in it for so many years left..
so i m merely here for u ppl sake..
not to convince you at all
but try to believe you people that what you all are mentioning here abt santmat faiths are not purely true at all..
thats the only reason me being here
if not i would never ever wud have been here to waste my time..
like i said..i have been to many such blogs
but never involved there more than a day..because they werent deserve enuff
but when i see satsangis like u who have lost faith in the path which u have all followed..that really is the USP of this blog and i m here for that reason
because if ur dumb immature or silly persons
i wud have left this blog long time
but u r very smart enuff ,mature and have lot of knowledge abt spirituality as its obvious being with rssb for 30 years ..u wud have def have come to know more abt spirituality
infact
its the RSSB path which lead you 2 open this blog..
but you have different point of view regarding the path
you think it as dogma..and ritual like..
but the fact is it might seems like that but its is not at all like that under any way..
repeation of truth doesnt says that its dogma..
every father teaches his son the same way
and its been happening since ages..
now that doesnt mean its dogma..
one thing i m sure about it will take time..though but one day we will have mutual statment towards the path..
uptil what all i have been thru this blog and read statement abt rssb..
soon you will find clone like blog like urs
and everyone will find each and every answer for it..
but those were just true genuine answers some with proofs some without..
now it will be upto you guys whether to believe or not to believe.

and i have connection to this blog only for the reason that its connected to my master
and my master being mispresentated here..
so to saveguard the truth and show everyone the real true side of rssb rather than the mispresented or misunderstood side of rssb..
thats it
i m here for that simple reasons..
and abt the note i posted which u termed as to be preaching just read it brian it was just for u and tao
the answer for ur failure in santmat..and unable to understand it completly..

Manish, this is exactly my point: your goal is to convert people such as me to how you believe. That isn’t the purpose of this blog. It is to discuss, converse, share ideas, support each other in churchlessness.
My experience is my experience. I’m not interested in having you explain to me why my experience is wrong. That’s impossible. What I’ve experienced is what I’ve experienced. I’m the only person who knows what I know — you sure don’t.
So if you want to respond to blog posts here with your own experiences or ideas, great. But your motivation shouldn’t be to change particular people. That’s why you come across as sounding preachy. You are.
Again, I’ve warned you several times about making my blog a forum for preaching the glory of Sant Mat and RSSB. If you keep on doing that, I’ll have to delete your comments as dogma spam.

Manish, you wrote:
“and i have connection to this blog only for the reason that its connected to my master and my master being mispresentated here..so to saveguard the truth and show everyone the real true side of rssb rather than the mispresented or misunderstood side of rssb..”
–Don’t you think your master can take care of himself and call those into his fold who are destined for it? Why do you think it is your duty to defend his teachings? There are always critics in the world for any prominent figure or belief system. That is the way of things. That is why Gurinder Singh has recommended that satsangis avoid arguments and controversy on the internet and elsewhere. There is no end to it.
If you really understand and respect your masters teachings you will attend to your own duty of simran and bhajan and let others attend to whatever affairs they think are important, which are not of your concern from the Sant Mat point of view.
It is not your job to change the world or people’s minds on this blog. Sant Mat teaches that this world is in Kals hands and he is managing it his way. Your responsibility, according to Sant Mat, is to rise above this plane of illusion and not to immerse yourself unnecessarily in worldly affairs. This is Kals world and not your true home. Why concern yourself with the thoughts of manmukhs? Surround yourself with gurmukhs and attend to your meditation.
I was initiated in 1970 by Charan Singh in person. I have attended countless satsangs, bhandaras, etc. I have been to Dera twice for one month each time. I have read most of the books, some several times. I did many hours of simran and bhajan and remained within the four vows. I have seen light and heard sound upon occasion in meditation.
Nevertheless, the time came over fifteen years ago when Sant Mat no longer was relevant for me. Perspectives and insights changed. The chameleon changed its colors and shed its skin. Sant Mat is a memory, a conceptual framework that no longer applies for me, a bubble construct that popped.
I think it is much the same for many of the ex-satsangis here. They understand the path, maybe much better than you do, but they have changed and moved on. I don’t think there is anything you can say to change this. Much of what you will hear on this blog are remarks that will challenge your faith and cause you to react defensively. It is time to face this fact. It is unlikely you will change any minds here. What you are really doing is defending your own insecurity and by participating here this problem will only be increased along with your frustration. In essence, you are talking to yourself.
Your comments are taking up far too much space in the “Recent Comments” column and new comments by others that may be of interest to readers here are being lost much too quickly. Please be considerate and try to condense your remarks to a single post rather than making numerous entries. Do you think it is polite for you to dominate this forum in this way? Is your self-importance this far out of control?
I wish you well. Please follow your spiritual path with vigor and enthusiasm, but don’t expect others to share your beliefs or to see things the way you do. Leave it up to Him.

well said tucson
i really liked the way you said
interesting people like you force me to stay connected in this blog..
but once again i have come to know that you people really sometimes misunderstand me..
i m not at all insecure
and yes your rite in saying it shud not be my concern to take care of this blog…
i agree…
and brain i m not at all here to convert any one into RSSB come on thats not my point …
and why shud i try converting u ..
ur already an rssb initiate..
if ur off from rssb doesnt means ur gone..
it means ur just away
and one day will be back..
now as tucson said i will leave it to him
he very well explained me in a very respectful and true manner
this is the called of a true initiated satsangi
i m proud of tucson to be an rssb initiate.
and i will try to follow it..
but brian and tucson and tao will u do a favour for me..
its a request
wud u like to share ur experience personally with me?
thru emails? not in blogs i dont want this blog goal shud be effected?
can we share thru emails?
can i have emails of u 3 people?

flakey,
Thanks for your reply,
You stated,
“I believe the creator to be pure energy, the life force so to speak, and the Masters are those who have traveled the inner regions with the help of their Master (who is their teacher and inner guide) and they have then merged their souls (energy/life force) back into this original ocean of energy/creative force. So we need a spiritual guide who is in a human form otherwise how can we communicate with pure spirit or energy?”
—Does your belief system come from Santmat teachings?
—Have you communicated with pure spirit or energy? This communication seems, from your statement, to be very important.
—Could you write a comment, explaining how the Master helps with this communication process? Is this a mental activity, or some sort of non-mental communication?
Thanks for your continued replies,
Roger

tAo,
I have a few questions for you. They’re quite personal so feel free not to answer. However, you seem to place alot on rational thought along with your extensive spiritual knowledge.
I was interested to read the other day that you’ve had some mystical experiences and would like you to expand a bit on these?
You seem against the guru concept, which also sits at odds with me, but I noticed you still respect the wisdom of various prophets through the ages as perhaps revealing something constant?
I understand your views of reality overlap alot with Tucson (and Brian). A oneness or formless ultimate reality which pervades all. No ‘thing’ exists, no subject, object, I or self; rather these are abstractified forms or manifestations of this formless oneness percieved by our limited means of perception. Tucson’s analogy was of bubbles in a flowing stream – some percieving themselves as bubbles, others as part of this oneness.
Some talk of oneness as being some sort of cosmic or collective consciousness. Others try marry this collective consciousness with scientific uniform field theory (vibrating wave functions).
Dzogchen, as i understand, is a natural state or primardial awareness of all things. I would be grateful to recieve your beliefs of reality?
I also wonder if you meditate? If so, the technique you use and what you are hoping to achieve through meditation?
Thanks for any response if you around.
George

Dear Manish,
Radhasoami,
You seem to be very much concerned about your master, you are really one of the very few Gurmukhs.Keep it up, and in one of your comments you mentioned you will be going to Sirsa, if you happen to be there please see if Maharaj Charan Singh’s son (Rana) is still there and try to guide him, I have heard that he has been Manmukh.
Further you mentioned every father teaches his son the same way, you are right, Master Gurinder Singh is also doing that, teaching his son.
Thanks

Juan,
Charan Singh’s son Rana is a manmukh? Now THAT is interesting.
Imagine if Charan Singh had named Rana as his successor? He would likely be the current Beas master. Yet it seems he has left the path.
A potential Sant Mat master leaving the path…
He is someone I would love to meet.
Anyone have his contact details?

Roger,
Thanks for your questions.
—Does your belief system come from Santmat teachings?
I have been very much influenced by Sant Mat but also at the same time been interested in and influenced by esoteric traditions, mythology, mysticism, psychic perception and ancient tribal traditions – to name a few.
—Have you communicated with pure spirit or energy? This communication seems, from your statement, to be very important.
I am drawn to mysticism, which I perceive as a conscious direct experience with spirit and/or the energy of the cosmos and have had some interesting other worldly experiences, still I take into account the mind can play many tricks.
—Could you write a comment, explaining how the Master helps with this communication process? Is this a mental activity, or some sort of non-mental communication?
I can’t really comment on this… though I have read that when during meditation the mind catches sight of the inner Master it becomes intoxicated and no longer has any desire for worldly things.

Roger, as a follow on to the above comment, we need to have met the physical form of the Master to enable us to recognize the inner form which is projected through the Shabd. Only what I have learned not yet experienced 🙂

To Manish, and also to George (George please scroll down):
Manish,
I appreciate your concerns. However, I simply do not have the time this week to respond to all of your comments that you directed at me. I have some other very important business going on in my life at this time.
However, I will definitely try and help you to better understand my position, views, etc etc if you are interested, and most importantly IF you will listen and receive what I have to say without over-laying it with all of your presumptions about me as well as your RS ‘baggage’. In other words, you must become open and RECEPTIVE to what I have to say and tell you about myself, without twisting it or interpreting it to fit your own mindset and agenda. If you can not do that, then you will never understand me… no matter what I say to you.
Also, I will not discuss any of this further on this site, Brian’s blog. I will only do so via private e-mail. So, if you wish to hear what I have to say, and you are willing to really listen, then send a private e-mail to Brian, who will forward it on to me. Then I will contact you back directly.
I will not give you my e-mail address here, nor will Brian give it to you. You must send a message to Brians Churchless e-mail contact, from your own e-mail address, and then Brian will forward it on to me. Neither Brian nor I wish to continue this particular debate here on his Churchless site. So, send a short e-mail to Brian, and then I will get back to you in approximately a week or so.
This site here is not the place to carry on in the way you have been doing. So these are my conditions if you wish to talk to me privately and hear (and hopefully understand) what I have to offer.
And in any case, I still wish you the best. If you value the RS path, then keep with it. But don’t try to bring others “back” to it. Radha Soami Mat (and the RS master) does NOT OWN people’s souls, regardless of whether you think it does or not. So if YOU wish to understand where I am at, then contact me via e-mail OUTSIDE of this blog.
——————————————–
George,
Thanks so much for your inquiry, and I will be glad to try to answer your questions and explain or discuss where I am at regarding those issues that you mentioned.
However, I cannot take the time to do that during the next week to ten days. So like I advised Manish, and like I suggested to you before, if you would please simply send a brief e-mail message to Brian’s e-mail address (with your questions), I trust that Brian will not mind to forward that e-mail on to me (on a one-time basis).
I will then contact you and establish private e-mail correspondence with you directly. Simply send an e-mail to Brian from whatever address that you wish me to use to send a reply message back to you. We can then go from there. But please bear in mind that you probably won’t hear from me for at least a week.
Also, thanks again for being such a good fellow, and I give my best wishes to you as well. I am so glad that we have come to a mutual resolution of those past petty differences. Pretty damn stupid of us I guess. Perhaps we may even meet up someday and have a drink together… and a jolly good laugh. Take care my friend… and I hope to hear from you.

I would like to say something to ALL commenters and readers. This occured to me the other day, and now seems a good time an place to post it. This is only my own opinion and does not necessarily relect Brian’s feelings.
As of late I have noticed that many commenters ahve been posting quite a lot of comments and assorted material and info, explations etc. about facets of the Santmat teachings, the shabd meditation, the cosmology of inner planes, the GIHF idea, the master, and so on and so forth. I would like to say that all of that sort of stuff is not realy what this blog is about or concerned with. I kind of feel like this subject matter (and some posters) has hi-jacked this comment forum as a place to discuss Santmat. But Santmat and endless discussion of the Santmat teaching and path is not really what Church of the Churchless is all about. There are many other more interesting subjects that have been pushed into the background. Brian has written and posted so many articles about so many other things. He has occasionaly mentioned RSSB and RS issues. but Santmat and RS is not his main concern here. But it seems that some folks here assume and feel that this is a venue and fourm that is devoted soley to Santmat and RSSB. I for one, do not feel that it is appropriate that Santmat become the main foucus of this site and this forum. There is another Yahoo forum that is devoted to that sort of thing, and people who wish to discuss Santmat teachings and the RS master and the RSSB should take their discussions over there.
I feel that some commenters here are, or have become obsessed with the subject of Santmat & RSSB, to the exclusion of all else. But I don’t think that is appropriate here. Sant mat is merely ONE subject among many others… that are actually much more interesting imo.
Anyway, as I said, this is all just my own opinion. And my conclusion is that I would hope that the discussions here can shift into other subjects besides Santmat and RSSB. And I think Brian would prefer that as well. Enough has been said about Santmat. People like Manish and Ashy can go to other sites like ” radhasoamistudies ” over at Yahoo Groups, if they wish to discuss about Santmat and RS.
Just my thoughts.

Manish,
A number of points that you might find helpful (or might not!)
RSSB is an organisation that has become a cult. It can no longer help someone to find truth because it has become the problem not the solution. Nothing personal – it happens to all organisations.
Truth is what you are seeking. But you cannot find it by following. A True Master will throw you back on yourself. There is no teaching – no path and no answer. Spirituality is a journey you undertake the destination of which is the discovery that there was no journey and no person to take the journey.
No Master gives you answers. All questions come from the mind. The purpose of a spiriual master is to take you to a place of no-mind. I don’t mean to stop questioning or stop thinking – both of which are impossibnle anwyay – the most you can do is suppress the questions and the mind.
That is what followers of RSSB have done. They pretend – they reach a pseudo state of peace. Actually they are just following blindly.
The process of getting to ‘truth’ is the opposite – to fully express yourself. To BE yourself – without trying to be a ‘good’ person. To go beyond all the conditioning of your parents, teachers and society and be yourself. RSSB cannot help you because they have a set of rules.
Meditation is not required to find truth. No amount of meditation will ever take you to truth – becuuse YOU will always remain – the meditator – and YOU are the barrier to truth.
So wat is ‘Truth’? Truth is to simply BE. Not be ‘anything’. Let life be life and do not try to be ‘holy’ or ‘unholy’
Zen amsters would call each other ‘old bags of snad’ to make sure they never fell into this trap of ‘respect.
You are trying to get free – but taking the concepts of sant mat with you. Drop them – they are all nonsense – they are all lies.

Osho,
Nice comment, as usual.
Roger

OshoRobbins, I have some questions/comments for you:
You said:
“RSSB is an organisation that has become a cult.”
What is an organisation and what is cult?
“Truth is what you are seeking. But you cannot find it by following. A True Master will throw you back on yourself.”
How do you now what manish is seeking. How do you know he is seeking? What is seeking? And the tell me what this thing called truth is.
Are you not acting like a master yourself by this sentence? You, actually go a step beyond, since you do not leave an opening for the other to tell what he desired.You state to him what he is desiring and then offer a solution. If that is you understand of a master, then, you are a cult guru. If you got what I just told you, go back and rewrite your answer to the previous question.
This because you then go on to tell us in two paragraphs the meaning of life. And within this absolute Dasein, RSSB is cult.
“You are trying to get free – but taking the concepts of sant mat with you. Drop them – they are all nonsense – they are all lies. ” Now we talk about freedom…’from what and for what?’
sant mat concepts…are lies…that is perfect..cause if I refer to brians recent post on science,,,,we can know what truth is…through deduction. So if santmat says this,,,it must be the other way…as if we are in treasure hunt..
These concepts of sant mat which are lies,,,let me ask you, are they, tricksters – its important to know – or are they,,,well in fact…tell me what is a lie.
Its must be interesting to call sant mat a cult full of lies and then expound your own discourse on life. You have with roger your first supporter as well.
I made some comments further up the texts, that i wont really repeat because what i write to you is both personal to you and a continuation of comments that i made before.
Its a comment on my comments if you may. I am sorry for the confused language,, but i took the liberty to since i assumed that a woman who reads tom robbins must like some confusion wordplay.

dear osho
u said…..
“RSSB is an organisation that has become a cult. It can no longer help someone to find truth because it has become the problem not the solution. Nothing personal – it happens to all organisations.”
well we everyday live in kind of organisation,so we need not require 2 think a lot about it.
everything we gain is from some sort of organisation
even our parents are part of
family organisation
our school and college is a part of college organisation..
what ever we do proffessionally or personaly is a part of organisation,hence dont pay attention that rssb is an organisation..
It has no longer help to find truth for “”someone”” nope your completely wrong
it might havent helped you or few,but you cant talk abt all,
like i said everyone cant go to biggest schools everyone cant gain A grade..everyone cant taste success….
every child in womb doesnt born…there are chances of abortion…
so dear this is entirely ur personal opinion or may be result of few people who werent able to follow it..
and it has not become any problme..
people involve in it creates problem,
i really feel pity on you guys who are not able to understand the simple thoery of santmat and because of ur limited thinking ability or so called minds..you r misjudging and mispresenting abt the path which is and is and will be most successful for many…i do not know abt all and others bt i m sure about me and many..whom i know,personally.
and it happens to all just not because of organisation or the master..
but the reasons are its followers..
but again its very natural and it happens..
sometime ur own child becomes ur enemies..
“”Truth is what you are seeking. But you cannot find it by following.””
who said …its again ur personal opinion which is incorrect..
“A True Master will throw you back on yourself.”
great atleast you understand the concept that there are true masters.
” There is no teaching – no path and no answer.”
well there is no meaning and you werent able to find the answers..its all ur fault
“” Spirituality is a journey you undertake the destination of which is the discovery that there was no journey and no person to take the journey.””
again osho ur personal view,
you tried something else
you reached somewhere else
you understood something else
and you felt and experience something else..
thats why ur thouhts are nothing but something else..out of santmat or spirituality..
your journey may be a failed venture..you cant say anything abt others.journey.
No Master gives you answers.
masters are not here for q and answers.
there here for a purpose which is very well presented and made understood but due to lack of inability in following it people like you get confused..and search for answers…
“”All questions come from the mind.””
yes ur rite..but now it depends on ur mind how u uses it.
“The purpose of a spiriual master is to take you to a place of no-mind. I don’t mean to stop questioning or stop thinking – both of which are impossibnle anwyay – the most you can do is suppress the questions and the mind.”
both are impossible i agree but thats what you have to make possible..
while at anyone death bed and death no mind will help u or guide u ..
remember that..
there is no suppressing at all..its all ur personal view..
which is comeplete incorrect..
“That is what followers of RSSB have done. They pretend – they reach a pseudo state of peace. Actually they are just following blindly.”
well do u find ur self eligible or qualified in saying the above statement,
TRUST SHUD BE LIKE THE FEELING THAT A ONE YEAR OLD BABY HAS,WHEN YOU THREW HIM IN AIR,HE LAUGHS,COZ HE KNOWS YOU WILL CATCH HIM.
well theres nothing called blind..but yeah some people who follow RSSB often go BLIND..
because they wanted something else..
and where there is WANT.that means,it shows you h avent understood santmat at all.
and if trusting someone you called blind following then i agree with you and appreciate all who are blindly following it.Including me.
“”””””Meditation is not required to find truth. No amount of meditation will ever take you to truth – becuuse YOU will always remain – the meditator – and YOU are the barrier to truth.
So wat is ‘Truth’? Truth is to simply BE. Not be ‘anything’. Let life be life and do not try to be ‘holy’ or ‘unholy’
Zen amsters would call each other ‘old bags of snad’ to make sure they never fell into this trap of ‘respect.
You are trying to get free – but taking the concepts of sant mat with you. Drop them – they are all nonsense – they are all lies.””””””
this above matter what ever you h ave mentioned shows ur inefficiency in understanding a path and following it..
if at all ur RS follower or else may b ur any other jealous rs critic..
its onething very strange,if we all trace history what RSSB is facing is nothing new at all,it has been happening from the day of existence of earth and its creatures called human beings..
and we always trying to think ourself as superiors and always busy in questioning and analysing which perhaps will never end..
till the death..
because no one has able to satisfy mind..
and how are all trapped in mind game has never achieved any results..
there are plently of inventions and wonders invented by humans…
so its very obivious we are also invented by some Power SOME creator…
and he exist..and because he exist we exist..
GOD is there…and i m really amazed to see people relating science with god..
oh my god!!!!!!!
they are in search of the power which created us..
perhaps we all have the ability to reach to god..
but one should know the way..
and people without being committed and determined to follow the way they have been taught from various different paths..they come and form groups
i remember a wise man sayings
that a commuinity is a gathering of more then one person where single cant decide anything but altogether can decide that nothing can be done..
Now my question TO ALL
you people are chanting the name of MIND MIND MIND and MIND
now i ask WHO MIND
whats MIND
when there are so many doubts and questionining
who will decide whose mind is correct and whos not..
now its like a man bought merc from the showroom and when because he doesnt knows to drive well he is a rash driver because of him lack of expertise he hasnt able to drive well and bump into any wall and says…who the hell merc created ..its all the owners fault this is not a good car..
now how can this silly guy blame the ownwer of the maker who is not at all responsible for..
when i saw and read these blogs abt RSSB
i m in delhi these days and going beas soon,
i just discussed abt this blog to my uncle..
and the way he replied me
wow..wow just wow
i was so happy and relaxed and felt pity on tao and brian..
that they really wasnt able to understand this path at all..
if you guys are fluent in hindi i invite you both for a discussion live..wheneveer poss fly to india…
because what all he said was just fantastic i was relaxed , and happy….because i found all my answers in it..
but i will just pen down a single example of his..
when i asked uncle why people inspite of being inititated and following the path at last come out of it..
HE SAID..LOOK ITS NATURAL..BECAUSE THEY DO NOT FOLLOW T HE WAY THE HAVE TO..
BECAUSE SANTMAT IS VERY SIMPLE AND ITS EASY TO ACHIEVE THE STATE OF GOD REALISATION BUT TO FOLLOW IT IS THE MOST CHALLENGING TASK,
BECAUSE OF THIS MATERALISTIC WORLD,AND MIND TRAPS AND BECAUSE OF NOT FOLLOWING IT COMPLETELY ONES GET PISSED OF AND FINALLY GIVE UP AND COME OUT OF THE PATH..
AND ITS HAPPENING FROM THE SO LONG TIME..
AND HE SAID LOOK SON..
IN A CAR EVEN IF A SMALL PART ISNT WORKING YOU CANNOT DRIVE A CAR..
UNLESS UNTILL ALL PARTS ARE INTACT AND THE CAR IS IN MINT CONDITION YOU CANT DRIVE IT
THATS THE WAY IN SANTMAT IF AT ALL YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO COMPLETELY ,100%, FOLLOW IT YOU CANT ACHIEVE YOUR AIM..IN SANTMAT THAT IS GOD REALISATION.
EVEN 99.99% WUDNT WORK
YOU HAVE TO ACHIEVE 100%
AND IN THESE AGE OF TECHNOLOGY,ANALYSING,LACK OF FAITH AND THE WAVES AND VIBES FROM YOUR N EAR BY SURRONDINGS WHICH ARE QUITE NEGATIVE THESE DAYS ONE MINDS TEND TO CHANGE AND SEEK THE TRUTH ELSE WHERE
WHICH HE WILL NEVER FIND BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS WITH IN.
THANKS EVERYONE
AND THANKS OSHO..
BUT OSHO YOU COMMENT AND MOST OF THE COMMENTS HERE SOMETIMES SOUNDS LIKE ALLEGATIONS..
AND ONETHING DEAR ONE MORE LAST EXAMPLE
ITS FOR PEOPLE WHO DRINK ALCOHOL
SOMETIMES WRONG INGREDIENTS MAY RESULT IN THE DEATH OF THE DRINKER…
BUT CHILL WHO CARES..DO ANYONE STOP DRINKING ALCOHOL …NO..
SAME WITH THIS PATH..THERE WILL BE NO EFFECT IF SOME PEOPLE STARTS COMING OUT OF THIS PATH…
BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN AND RESEARCHED FEW ARE LEAVING BECAUSE OF LACK ..OF THEIR ABILITIES TO FOLLOW
AND MORE MORE N MORE AND MANY MORE ARE JOINING…AS THEIR ABLE TO SEE TRUTH AND FAITH IN THE PATH..
THANKS ONE AGAIN.
WUD BE EAGERLY WAITING FOR TAO AND BRIANS REPLY TO T HIS POST..

To all,
An older man told of how much of an influence his father was on him:
When he was a small boy during the Great Depression (the 1930’s, in the USA), his father had stood him upon a table, stepped back, held out his arms to/for his boy, and indicated that the boy should jump into his arms.
The boy took some short, quick steps and did so … as his father stepped aside and let him fall on the floor.
Although crying in pain, he still could yet see the tears in his father’s eyes as he got off the floor. With great sorrow, his dad told him: “Son, never trust anybody.”
Robert Paul Howard

Manish,
You again continue to make the same old mistake here. You continue to presume that the rest of us here don’t “understand” the path, and that we have simply given up too soon, before reaching its goal. But you are so wrong, so incorrect. You are the one who does not understand us. And now, you go running to ask your uncle, who clearly does not understand the extent of matter either.
Its rather tiresome to see how you keep foisting your dogma as if its truth, and then you assume that others have failed because you think and believe that we “lack” or don’t live up to it, or don’t trust in your dogma. This is just so stupid of you Manish, but you just can’t see that.
Here’s some of what you said:
“when i saw and read these blogs abt RSSB […] i just discussed abt this blog to my uncle.”
— Why? Your uncle knows nothing about us, or where we are at, or where we are coming from. He has no clue what the issues are.
“i was relaxed , and happy….because i found all my answers in it.”
— You merely THINK that you found the “answers”. But thats only because you are confused and involved in searching, in seeking answers. I need no such answers. And your so-called answers, well they just do not apply to me. These “answers” are all about YOUR beliefs, about YOUR personal story, not me or mine, or Brians, or anyone elses.
“i was so happy and relaxed and felt pity on tao and brian..that they really wasnt able to understand this path at all.”
— This is exactly what I indicated above… you still assume that we do not “understand”. But it is YOU who does not understand US. I understand far more about Santmat and many other paths, than you can even imagine.
“i invite you both for a discussion live..wheneveer poss fly to india.”
— No offense, but to be quite honest, thats absurd. I need to have no such “discussion”, nor would I come to India for that reason. I have already spent years in India, and I have gained my own insight and wisdom. I have no interest whatsoever in discussing Santmat with RS cult believers like you or your uncle. Your uncle simply does not have any idea where I am at spiritually, nor do you.
“when i asked uncle why people inspite of being inititated and following the path at last come out of it.”
— You uncle knows nothing about other people, or why they do what they do.
“HE SAID… LOOK ITS NATURAL BECAUSE THEY DO NOT FOLLOW THE WAY THEY HAVE TO.”
— There is no such “THEY HAVE TO”. Your uncle sounds like an authoritarian religious fundamentalist.
“SANTMAT IS VERY SIMPLE AND ITS EASY TO ACHIEVE THE STATE OF GOD REALISATION BUT TO FOLLOW IT IS THE MOST CHALLENGING TASK,
BECAUSE OF THIS MATERALISTIC WORLD, AND MIND TRAPS AND BECAUSE OF NOT FOLLOWING IT COMPLETELY.”
— Your uncle does not know anything about other people, or their sadhana.
“THATS THE WAY IN SANTMAT. IF AT ALL YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO COMPLETELY 100% FOLLOW IT, YOU CANT ACHIEVE YOUR AIM. IN SANTMAT THAT IS GOD REALISATION.”
— That is nothing but pure dogma.
“LACK OF FAITH AND THE WAVES AND VIBES FROM YOUR NEARBY SURRONDINGS WHICH ARE QUITE NEGATIVE.”
— I have no need for his so-called “FAITH”, and my surroundings are not at all “NEGATIVE”.
“THESE DAYS ONES MIND TENDS TO SEEK THE TRUTH ELSEWHERE, WHICH HE WILL NEVER FIND BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS WITHIN.”
— That is merely his own very limited idea of truth. He does not know anything about other people.
“SAME WITH THIS PATH..THERE WILL BE NO EFFECT IF SOME PEOPLE STARTS COMING OUT OF THIS PATH.”
— There is also no “EFFECT” if they stay in it.
“FEW ARE LEAVING BECAUSE OF LACK OF THEIR ABILITIES TO FOLLOW AND MORE MORE N MORE AND MANY MORE ARE JOINING…AS THEYRE ABLE TO SEE TRUTH AND FAITH IN THE PATH.”
— Wrong. There is no “LACK” in our “ABILITIES”. And I do not need to “FOLLOW” anything. Also, followers and joiners are not “ABLE TO SEE TRUTH”. If the did, they would not be following.

Hi People,
WOW – that was funny.
I just made a few passing remarks – and opened up a whole can of worms.
MANISH – let me first address your responses.
Too long to go into all of them – but I will summarise beiefly.
(1) Please read that Tao has written in response to you – just above this response.
Manish – calm down – relax. Take it easy. Have a cup of tea.
Please understand – I have not left sant mat because I have failed to achieve anything.
On the contrary – I realized the truth and then saw how crazy the sant mat concepts are!
Anyway – forget me – even your own leader – Maharaj Guringer Singh Ji says the same thing.
I have heard it in person. “If any of you think you understand sant mat – you are mistaken.
All you have is CONCEPTS – and they are ALL INCORRECT”
This much is true – all you have is concepts.
Listen Manish – sant mat is a BELIEF system. ALL BELIEF SYSTEMS – all paths – all religions
not just sant mat – ALL of them are a TRAP.
Why? because the poor seeker is LOST and becomes EVEN more lost.
A TRUE MASTER (and yes – I do consider that someone who is ‘enlightened’ can help
others – and I choose to call that person a Master – or a ‘teacher or truth’)
will be able to HELP you to AWAKEN to truth.
Of course you first need to be OPEN and RECEPTIVE. This is what the past masters and gurus did.
They DID NOT prescribe MEDITATION as the panacea for all ills.
In fact if you read Ashthvakra – he is telling Janak that ALL SADHAHA (incl Meditation) is the
BARRIER to truth. He tells him that the DOER must disappear and cannot happen while he is DOING.
Sant mat – takes examples from past masters and USES them for it’s own benefits.
The listeners to a satsang ASSUME it MUST be the truth and that’s it. Game over. They are caught
in the trap.
They think they understand – they think they have the ‘right path’.
When all they have is CONCEPTS.
Listen – what is SHABD? or NAAM? I mean really – what is this mystical shabd?
I put it to you – that it is just a concept!!!!
I used to do satsangs for RSSB. I was eventually banned. But I enjoyed the ride.
It was fun. And I learned so much about people and how they get trapped.
I only did it for entertainment. I sometimes go to the mic and have a discussion with
Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji. All for entertainment.
What else is there? It is all a cosmic game. That is why I say – relax and have a cup of tea.
So let me make it clear.
I have not failed in sant mat. I meditated and followed it for 30 years. I met no less than
six sant mat masters personally and had long discussions with them. I followed some of them.
My conclusion – many are sincere – but are deluded.
Sant mat will not lead to truth – I am making this as an absolute statement.
I challenge you to show me a single person who has arrived by following sant mat.
My friend, such a person does not exist.
I have even heard Gurinder saying it openly in santsang.
Wake up – will you? Everyone in sant mat – thinks the next person has attained.
Many used to think that the ‘speakers’ had attained. Then you realise they are no
than puppets. They read the recite. They have no experience of the truth.
Manish, Grab a brain, will ya?
Go to the Brain shop (not Brian shop – as you seemed to get Brain and Brian mixed up a lot).
Bulleh Shah says – “The rest is all talk – The ONE is the truth. The speakers (those who do satsang)
are making a lot of noise. The papers (scriptures) have confused everyone.”
RSSB is come a LONG WAY from the initial days. Even 40 years ago – ONLY THE MASTER did satsang.
I remember when it was first suggested that another person give satsang. It was a shock.
Now everyone and his mother appears to be qualified to give a talk.
Anyone like me who is a little more outspoken is banned – it is all politics.
I gave a RSSB talk in one of the centres. Of the 50 people attending – about 30 came to
talk to me.
Why? Because what I say awakens them – does not send them to sleep.
Sleep means to be comfortable in your beliefs. Truth only dawns once you drop all beliefs.
Manish – in conclusion – you have NO HOPE.
You said earlier that you had changed – and was open to these discussions.
Manish – you are a BRAIN washed follower. You cannot understand what TAO and others are saying.
Why? Because you cannot listen. You have no ears. That is why I say – the best thing is a cup of tea.
Manish – I have found the truth – so has Tao – we are not seeking anything.
There is nothing to seek – There is no GOD – No Sat Purush livig in Sach Khand. It was all a nice story
made up so you could follow. I tried to get to Sach Khand. Then one day I realised there is no such place.
And also no GOD – as a separate being. There is only the ONE. Nothing else.
Realise the ONE and it is over.
Try to get to Sach Khand and you will remain trapped forever in a world of concepts.
ALXS:
In response to what you have written.
I know what Manish is seeking because it shows in his writing.
He is a follower of his own version of sant mat.
He is clearly not realised and he is seeking to get to the goal of sant mat.
You don’t have to be a genius to figure this out.
Am I acting like a master by making these comments?
So anyone who makes a deduction is now a master?
I am not leaving an opening because we are not face to face. If we were – it would be
a very different discussion.

Since you dont leave any openings, and I am kindoff done with this specific post I will make my point (which is that a) A Sant Guru’s answers will always appear quasi-mystical b) Before critiquing others you should you should be certain if you yourself know the truth)…
..in cubes and squares.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0

a, are you sure you yourself know the truth? I have to assume so, since you feel free to critique others. Namely, the author of this post.
So, what is the truth? Please expound it. I don’t claim to know ultimate truth. But I sure do feel entitled to critique others who do make such a claim, if they aren’t able to back that claim up with evidence.
If ultimate truth is mystery, or ineffable, then no claims to knowing it should be made. If ultimate truth can be known, then those who claim to know it should be able to produce some evidence of knowing.

no brian i do not know the truth. Do you?
and there is a difference between criticizing and slundering.Actually i did not even bother with you, and if i did it was definetely not personal/ you are the websmaster after all.
“If ultimate truth can be known, then those who claim to know it should be able to produce some evidence of knowing.”
Evidence of knowing….evidence of knowing…you want a little piece of consiousness to be presented in an open palm?
I just leave the opening that someone may know more than me. Not just one person,,,many people may know more things than me in regards to many issues. ,,,

A,
Knowing, not knowing.
There is a third state.
Let me call it BEYOND KNOWING.
A person who lives only in knowing/unknowing will not understand.
Someone makes a statement – lets call it statement A.
A – The only way to get to Sach Khand is to meditate.
Then there is a statement B.
B – In order to meditate you need a Master who will initiate you.
Finally a statement C.
C – In order to progress you need to believe in A and B
Lets say there are three people in our universe called P1 P2 and P3.
P1 is a BELIEVER and believes in A B and C.
He is a follower and has FAITH. He thinks he KNOWS there is a Sach Khand and a Master and a Path and he is ON IT.
He appears to be ALL WISE – but in fact is knows nothing. His so-called ‘knowing’ is of a theory based on A B and C.
He may even give talks and satsangs on the theory of A B and C. When challenged – he will say he is just giving out the teachinigs.
He has not reached Sach Khand but he is an Eternal Hopeful – and HOPEFULLY – there will come a day when he will reach. That day is called ONE DAY. P1 lives in the eternal hope of getting to ONE DAY. However, ONE DAY never arrives. Lots of days keep going by, but the ONE DAY he seeks never comes.
P1 is a good satsangi – a believer.
Then there is P2.
P2 has something called DOUBT. This means he is a non-believer.
He is a skeptic. He asks for proof before he believes.
However there is no proof.
P1 tells him he has to meditate – and for a while he does – but does not get his proof.
Disgusted – he gives up. He remains a non-believer.
So now enter P3.
P3 neither believes – nor dis-believes.
Why? because he is aware that the whole thing is nonsense.
(1) There is no Sach Khand
(2) Hence no meditation is required
(3) Since there is no Sach Khand there is nowhere to ‘get to’.
P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond it.
Then something happens to P3. The ONE DAY happens.
He has an AWAKENING (I have to call it something!). The awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth. Lets just call it ONENESS. He realises that there is no Sach Khand because that is just a CONCEPT. Hence there is no PLACE to get to.
Since there is no place – there is no path and no secret technique (meditation).
Why because there is no HERE and THERE – these are both concepts within time and space.
The TRUTH he is discovering is beyond time and space – beyond mind – beyond ‘understanding’. For simplicity lets call it NOTHING.
If P3 speaks – you will not understand because you are in a world of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief.
You live in the mind and he speaks of that which is beyond mind.
=====================
Here is the problem.
P1 is trying to get P2 and P3 to BELIEVE.
P3 just laughs at the idea.
To P3 it is just a joke.
P2 is in the middle ground – not sure – not understanding – and yes – confused.
manish – you are a P1.
Many of the people here are not P2s.
They are P3s.
That is why it is such a joke that the P1 is trying to convince the P3.
It is impossible because P3 has transcended the need to ‘know’
P3 is aware that it is nonsense and you can never convince him.
Let’s see why.
P3 does not lack faith.
It is not that he has FALLEN!!!
He does not require picking up.
Something else has happened, Manish, something else.
Something that you cannot even imagine.
P3 has arrived at the place you call Sach Khand.
Except he does not call it Sach Khand.
P3 has MET God. Except he does not call her God. He might call it the ONE.
ONE means there is no other. No YOU and no ME. No SOUL that has to MERGE. These are all CONCEPTS created within the mind.
They are MAPS of reality and a MAP is NEVER reality – just a representation that is confusing the hell out of people.
A Map is flat – and has a scale. It has nothing to do with the actual territory. It just represents it. It is not similar to it.
You cannot get an idea of the mountains by looking at a map of the mountains.
P3 has dropped the mind. Hence he does not BELIEVE and does not DOUBT. Neither.
The Buddha FAILED to FIND what he was looking for. In that FAILURE he realised the truth: that was he was looking for does not exist. A great peace came over him. He realised that he is the ONE – there is nothing else.
This is not an ATTAINMENT or an ACHIEVEMENT. It is the dropping of ALL DESIRE to attain. There is nothing to attain, because attainment happens only in duality.
P1 is trying to attain. P2 is has given up.
P3 is not even trying – not because he has failed – but because he has realised that the statements A B and C are simply not true.
A B and C are works of fiction. P3 does not doubt them = he simply sees through them and has a good laugh.
Manish – you cannot understand P3. It is beyond you. You are stuck in the state of a P1. You needs to STOP BELIEVING if you ever want to escape the trap. But you cannot because BELIEF is all you know. It is your life.
And those who believe will always remain blind because the belief will keep them blind. They cannot find truth because they are not seeking it – they want the truth to fit into their belief! This will never happen.
P1 will create his own experiences and that will become his proof. The experiences are DELUSION. Please read Faqir Chand – the unknowing sage.
Truth is BEYOND experience. Experience requires TWO. There is only ONE. You can never experience the ONE or say anything about it.

OshoRobbins, nice analysis. I like how you described P1, P2, and P3. Yes, going beyond knowing and not-knowing, finding the common ground between them — that seems like a good place to be.

OshoRobbins,
Beautifully said. You totally nailed it in your two posts above. You put it all in perspective so well. You have explained this pivotal issue so much simpler, better, and more concisely than I. Thanks. It was a real pleasure to read your comments, and the clarity they contain and express. Well done my friend.

Osho,
Your P1-P3 analogy is useful shorthand, but I question the way P3 is presented.
P1 seems to be a believer, P2 a skeptic and P3 an enlightened sort.
To me though, P3 is in perilous danger of the self-delusion attributed to P1, namely claiming the truth without objective evidence.
You say “P3 neither believes – nor dis-believes. Why? because he is aware that the whole thing is nonsense.”
— How is he ‘aware’? Since there is no objective explanation for this awareness, what is different from this and the subjective experience of P1?
P3 almost appears to be instantly blessed with an enlightened awakening, from which he can see all and judge ‘nonsense’ or not.
I don’t believe anyone knows the Truth and if such a person professes to do so then he must provide objective evidence for this, otherwise P3 is no different to P1 in claiming the Truth in an unsopported subjective manner.
“P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond it. Then something happens to P3. The ONE DAY happens. He has an AWAKENING (I have to call it something!). The awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth.”
— Again, this seems a subjective experience; how does it differ from the validity of P1’s subjective experience?

George, I liked Osho’s comment. I also like yours. You raise some good points about the difference, if any, between P1 and P3. I agree that there doesn’t seem to be any objective way of telling the difference between them.
Philosophically, I think the root nature of the universe/cosmos is more likely to be beyond our human ability to comprehend it, than to be within the neat and tidy confines of a P1 understanding. So in this sense I liked the P3 “none of the above” attitude.
However, like you said, claiming an awakening seemingly makes a P3 guy into a knower. He knows that there is nothing to know, supposedly, but this is still a knowing, isn’t it?

yes precisely Brian, the logic seems slightly circular.
If P3 claims knowledge, even if it is knowledge of nothing, what supports this belief?

Well, George, I suspect it is supported in the same fashion as my semi-frequent insights into the nature of it all. Intuition. A feeling of rightness. An “aha!” or “yes!” sensation.
Nothing wrong with that. It certainly is a valid feeling, just as my feeling “Yum, I love strawberries” is valid. But only for me. Not as a statement about the nature of the cosmos.

Yes Brian, and to take it further i suspect P1’s appreciation of the truth is supported by some sort of direct mystical experience or intuition.
Perhaps an alternative categorisation system:
A1 is believer without evidence (faith)
A2 is believer with subjective evidence (mystic)
A3 is believe with objective evidence (science)
Seems P1 and P3 are both variants of A2.
From an RS viewpoint, it seems there are certain satsangis and ex-satangis who fall into category A1, while others fall into A2. A1 would seem more of religious type belief with scripture, teachings and guru interprerations. A2 would seem more of a mystical type who use RS but believe there are other valid paths too.

“P3 almost appears to be instantly blessed with an enlightened awakening, from which he can see all and judge ‘nonsense’ or not.”
“P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond it. Then something happens to P3. The ONE DAY happens. He has an AWAKENING (I have to call it something!). The awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth.”
—I can see some dualism in the “instantly blessed with an enlightened awakening” statement.
—Same for, “the awakening gives him GLIMPSES of truth” ……….
—Nothing wrong with P3 coming to a dualist blog and commenting dualisticly.
—dualisticly…hmmm….did I spell that right?

Dear George, and Brian, and any other interested readers:
As I indicated above, I thought OshoRobbin’s comments were rather right on the mark.
But thats probably because I have previously (entirely on my own) come to a more or less identical conclusion, or a kind of recognition or a so-called ‘realization’, about the nature and failing of RS method, just as OshoRobbins has.
But I also see that OshoRobbin’s explanation about that could be interpreted slightly differently, depending on the angle from which one views Santmat & RS (RS and RS believers being the specific model and example that Osho was using as the basis and substance of his critique).
So in order to better clarify OshoRobbin’s position, I will list (with some editing and my own inserts) what I feel are his more significant and applicable statements (imo) again here:
“Knowing, not knowing.
There is [also] a third state.
…call it BEYOND KNOWING.
A – The only way to get to Sach Khand is to meditate.
B – In order to meditate you need a Master who will initiate you.
C – In order to progress you need to believe in A and B
P1 is a BELIEVER and believes in A B and C.
He is a follower and has FAITH.
His so-called ‘knowing’ is of a theory based on A B and C. He may even give talks and satsangs on the theory of A B and C.
[However} When challenged – he will say he is just giving out the teachinigs.
He has not reached Sach Khand but… P1 lives in the eternal hope of getting to [sach khand]. However, [that day] never arrives… never comes.
[Yet] P1 is a good satsangi – a believer.
Then there is [also] P2. P2 has something called DOUBT. This means he is a non-believer… a skeptic. He asks for proof before he believes. However there is no proof.
P1 tells him [P2] that he has to meditate – and for a while he does – but [still] does not get his proof. Disgusted – he gives up. [Thus] He remains a non-believer.
So now enter P3. P3 neither believes – nor dis-believes. He is aware that:
(1) There is no Sach Khand
(2) Hence no meditation is required
(3) Since there is no Sach Khand there is nowhere to ‘get to’.
P3 does not BELIEVE. He also does not DOUBT. He simply sees beyond
P3 realises that there is no Sach Khand because [sach khand] is just a CONCEPT. Hence [in reality] there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place – there is [also] no [need for a] path and no [need for any] meditation.
There is no HERE and THERE – these are both concepts within time and space.
He is discovering [what] is beyond time and space – beyond mind – beyond ‘understanding’.
P3 speaks – [but] you [may] not understand [if] you [remain in the duality] of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. [If you] live in the mind [then you cannot recognise] that which is beyond mind.
P1 is trying to get P2 and P3 to BELIEVE.
[However] P3 [has no need to believe]. To P3 it is just [all concepts].
[About P2]:
P2 is in the middle ground – not sure – not understanding – confused.
Manish – [is a] P1.
[Some] of the people here are not P2s. They are P3s.
it is [actually] a [kind of] joke that the P1 is trying to convince the P3.
[But] it is impossible because P3 has transcended [any] need to [believe].
P3 is aware that [beliefs and concepts are irrelevant] and [so] you can never convince him [to believe].
P3 does not lack faith. He does not require [saving]. P3 [recognioses that] Sach Khand [can only be here and now, or not at all]. Except he does not call it Sach Khand.
P3 has recognised] the ONE. ONE means there is no other. No SOUL that has to MERGE. These are all [mere] CONCEPTS created within the mind.
They are [mere] MAPS of reality and a MAP is [only a concept, not reality] – just a representation that [can very well be] confusing.
P3 [is not trying to achieve anything via] the mind. Hence he [has no need to] BELIEVE and [also] does not [feel] DOUBT.
The Buddha FAILED to FIND what he was looking for. [Because] in that [very] FAILURE he [understood] the truth [of the matter]: that what [he thought that] he was looking for [was only an idea in the mind, a form of duality, and so the search was in fact entirely unnecessary].
He [the Buddha] realised that he [cannot be anything other than] the ONE – [and that] there is nothing else.
This is not an ATTAINMENT or an ACHIEVEMENT. It is [simply] the [instantaneous and effortless] dropping [away] of ALL DESIRE to attain. There is nothing to attain, because attainment happens only in duality.
P1 is trying to attain [something that he believes is yet to be attained].
P2 is [not sure yet about what is true, or what is not true].
P3 is not even trying – not because he has failed – but because he has realised [recognised] that those statements A, B, and C, are [irrelevant]. [To P3 the ideas of] A B and C are [all totally unnecessary assumptions… they are] fictions.
P3 does not doubt them. [As there is no need to doubt them.] He simply sees through them and [so he sees the ultimate irrelevancy of them].
Manish cannot understand P3. It is beyond [him]. [Manish is] stuck [firmly and willingly] in the state of a P1.
[Until Manish can let gop of his need to BELIEVE [he cannot] escape the trap of duality. But [he] cannot, because BELIEF is all he knows. It is [bound up with his very identity].
And those who believe will always remain blind because the belief will keep them blind.
They cannot find truth, because they are not [truly] seeking [the real truth]. {rather] they want the truth to fit into THEIR BELIEFS. [But actual truth (whatever it may be) can never conform to mere beliefs.]
P1 will create his own experiences and that will become his [supposed] proof. The experiences are [in a sense] DELUSION.
[See] Faqir Chand [says in the book] The Unknowing Gage.
Truth [itself] is BEYOND [mere] experience. Experience requires TWO. [In truth] there is only ONE.
You can [not ever entirely] “experience” the ONE [because the ONE is absolute totality, absolute non-duality, and so there is no ‘other’ to be able to “experience” it.]”

tAo,
Thanks for the input.
Just a few issues that are unclear to me.
1) I understand that each satsangi will have a unique and subjective experience (some having none).
Thus, it would seem quite possible that the P1 person could have a P3 experience.
In fact, how has P3 achieved at his state of enlightenment? On the RS path, on another path or on no path? And what evidence is there to support P3’s enlightenment as compared to P1’s?
2) I understand the P3’s enlightenment is basically a monistic recognition, i.e. oneness.
But is this monism not precisely the goal of RS and most other mystic traditions, which is to unite with the One?
I see alot of overlap, rather than difference.

Well,
what osho Robbins just described,,,
I still have issues, (since the church of the churchless seems to swimming in the waters of deconstruction).
What does sach khand mean
what does meditation mean
I feel that what you have described for P3, his (P3’s) meditation is this exact thing i.e:
“… P3 neither believes – nor dis-believes. He is aware that:
(1) There is no Sach Khand
(2) Hence no meditation is required
(3) Since there is no Sach Khand there is nowhere to ‘get to’…”
This thus is P3’s dialogismos/meditation. Do you see?
And what is P3’s ‘sachkhand’?
This:
” P3 realises that there is no Sach Khand because [sach khand] is just a CONCEPT. Hence [in reality] there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place – there is [also] no [need for a] path and no [need for any] meditation.
There is no HERE and THERE – these are both concepts within time and space.
He is discovering [what] is beyond time and space – beyond mind – beyond ‘understanding’.”
And at the end,,,the cherry on top,,,the totally ‘un-scientific argument’ (what is scientific anyway?),,,the same argument that you many of you accuse the guru’s comes:
“P3 speaks – [but] you [may] not understand [if] you [remain in the duality] of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. [If you] live in the mind [then you cannot recognise] that which is beyond mind.”
Oh WebGuru OshoRobbins,,,and your webdisciples. Tell me more,,,
“He [the Buddha] realised that he [cannot be anything other than] the ONE – [and that] there is nothing else.”
How on earth do you know what the buddha realised 2,500 years ago? Through the hundreds of thousand of secondary/third/fourth/fifth/sixth/seventh/twentieth etc. texts?
Did you talk to him?
You think the realised the one? That was His teachings? Are you sure that was his methods and you cite him? And then you cite Faqir Chand who wrote books exclusvily on the ‘inner’ dimensions. I wont bother to find them for you. A man who revered sawan, who had a guru, who meditate with a specific way most of his life, who talked abou the shabd. You take one line and place it in your text..Ok..I will accept it. It seems you know what you are talking about. It seems you are certain. It appears you solved the riddle. In this non-duality 30,000 children in Africa dont really, realy die every day,,its our dual mind that perceives them as such. Between Osho and Tom Robbins it seems that you have grasped something. So it seems your are a webbudda a webosho a webtao and beyond,,,
A cyberspace webenlightment.
I dont know the truth…all I know is that these are all just words that appear in front of a screen,,,which you are reading and they in turn may or may not have a mental reaction from the readers part, which may or may not lead to physical action..
can you avoid non-duality in pursuit of something you love?
Thats all from me regarding this issue.
(Dont take what I wrote as accusing anyone of anything,,take it as feedback).

Dear George,
You said/asked:
“Just a few issues that are unclear to me.”
“1) I understand that each satsangi will have a unique and subjective experience (some having none). Thus, it would seem quite possible that the P1 person could have a P3 experience.”
— I suppose that is possible, but, I’m not sure that (in OshoRobbins example) the P3 has any specfic “experience”. Its more along the lines of an insight, than an actual “experience”. He simply recognises the inhrent fallacy of the suppositions/beliefs, and thus the efforts, of the P1 person.
“In fact, how has P3 achieved at his state of enlightenment?”
— I don’t know that he actually has any so-called “enlightenment”. For whats its worth, I myself do not subscribe to a supposed “enlightenment”, of which I consider to be merely a myth. To delve more and deeper into that issue, I would highly recommend and suggest checking into what U.G. Krishnamurti had to say about it, most of which I generally agree with.
“On the RS path, on another path or on no path?”
— I cannot really say, as that was Osho’s example, and not mine. However, I very much doubt it would be from the RS path. It could be a result of another path, but more likely it would be from direct insight alone.
“And what evidence is there to support P3’s enlightenment as compared to P1’s?”
— As I indicated above, my own view and feeling is that P3 is not really having any, or claiming any, so-called “enlightenment”. I don’t even think that he (OshoRobbins) mentioned the word.
Also, more importantly, There is no indication that P1 has any so-called “enlightenemt” at all. P1 is merely a believer, a follower of the path and its dogma, guru, etc. Where was it mentioned that P1 has any sort of actual “enlightenment”?
“2) I understand the P3’s enlightenment is basically a monistic recognition, i.e. oneness.”
— Again, I would not call it an “enlightenment”. And yes, I would think of it more an insight or a recognition, but of the fact that the entire premise of the path is faulty. The “ONE” or “oneness” refers more to advaita (non-duality) than monism. Monism and non-duality appear to be similar, but are very different in approach. But yes, as you say, it is simply a “recognition” or deep direct insight… not the traditional so-called “enlightenment”
“But is this monism not precisely the goal of RS and most other mystic traditions, which is to unite with the One?”
— Well I suppose that is true, in a sense. But in RS etc, it is a “goal” that is the object of seeking and belief and effort and method, rather than simply the instantaneous recognition/insight that all such “seeking and belief and effort and method” etc, is fruitless and unnecessary and misleading…. which was OshoRobbins point.
“I see alot of overlap, rather than difference.”
— I understand that, from some individual’s points of view that may seem to be true, but I think its not accurate. There is (imo) no similarity at all between the premise, method, beliefs, dogma, effort, and goal of the RS path… as compared to that which OshoRobbins is pointing towards.
I hope my comments and opinions help and shed some light on this matter for you George. Your questions and points are always good.

A,
You said:
“I still have issues,
What does sach khand mean
what does meditation mean”
— Its not quite clear what you are getting at. Do mean to say, what is the definition of these (“sach khand” and “meditation”)?? If you are asking for a simple definition/meaning, then you can find that elsewhere and in the Santmat & RS literature. If you are aiming at something else, then please clarify what that might be.
“I feel that what you have described for P3, his (P3’s) meditation is this exact thing […] This thus is P3’s dialogismos/meditation. Do you see?”
— No, do not see what your point is at all. Thats probably because (imo) P3 has NO such “meditation”… not as you have stated and are trying to present.
“And what is P3’s ‘sachkhand’?”
— There is none. As far as I can see in OshoRobbins example, P3 has no “sach khand”, nor does P3 believe in the existance of any “sach khand”.
” This: P3 realises that there is no Sach Khand because [sach khand] is just a CONCEPT. Hence [in reality] there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place – there is [also] no [need for a] path and no [need for any] meditation.”
— Yes, that is exactly what I indicated just above.
“And at the end […] the totally ‘un-scientific argument’ (what is scientific anyway?), the same argument that you many of you accuse the guru’s comes:”
“P3 speaks – [but] you [may] not understand [if] you [remain in the duality] of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. [If you] live in the mind [then you cannot recognise] that which is beyond mind.”
— Well, fyi, that is NOT at all what the gurus are accused of. The gurus (not all gurus mind you) are accused of exhibiting and promoting dogma and methods and effort and a goal, based upon a dualistic belief system, not upon direct recognition of inherent and effortless non-duality. And if you don’t understand what “scientific” is, then you ought to go educate yourself, before making comments that have no bearing on the issue.
“Oh WebGuru OshoRobbins,,,and your webdisciples.”
— Cheap sarcasm and ridicule will get you nowhere.
“How on earth do you know what the buddha realised 2,500 years ago?”
— It is not directly known. But much can be understood, ascertained, and attributed to him by the extant records of what he said and taught. That generally indicates what he had realised.
“You think he realised the one? That was His teachings? Are you sure that was his methods?”
— Again… much can indeed be understood, ascertained, and attributed to Gautama, Sakyamuni Buddha by the extant records of what he said and taught. That generally indicates what he had realised.
“And then you cite Faqir Chand who wrote books exclusvily on the ‘inner’ dimensions.”
— So what? Faqir Chand dismissed much of the RS dogma as myths, as well.
Ok..I will accept it. […] It appears you solved the riddle. In this non-duality 30,000 children in Africa dont really, realy die every day,,its our dual mind that perceives them as such.”
— That is NOT what is said, inferred, or implied by non-duality. Go study advaita before trying to link non-duality with dying children in Africa. There is no connection.
The starvation and dying in Africa is a human tradgedy of great proportion… of which no doubt all of us here have great compassion towards. So for you to attempt to imply that non-duality equals no compassion is a totally flawed and twisted and bogus interpretation and insinuation. AND… you apparently do NOT understand non-duality.
“it seems your are a webbudda a webosho a webtao and beyond A cyberspace webenlightment.”
— Sarcasm and ridicule will get you nowhere…. it just shows your antagonism and what you are really up to here.
“I dont know the truth…all I know is that these are all just words that appear in front of a screen,,,which you are reading and they in turn may or may not have a mental reaction from the readers part, which may or may not lead to physical action..can you avoid non-duality in pursuit of something you love?”
I have no idea what you are trying to say. But you seem rather confused and somewhat irrational. Perhaps you should try to articulate your point and meaning better.

tAo
You really do not make any sense. SO you analysed my post
What is your point exactly?

A,
You responded with: “SO you analysed my post
What is your point exactly?”
— My point is this… That perhaps you might try to articulate and explain YOUR points and YOUR meanings a little better.
Because, you seem a bit confused, and its difficult to tell what YOUR point really is, and what it is over-all that YOU are trying to say in your previous comments.
So again, you had said the following:
“I still have issues,
What does sach khand mean
what does meditation mean”
— Its not quite clear what you are getting at. Do you mean to say, what is the definition of these (“sach khand” and “meditation”)?? If you are asking for a simple definition/meaning of those terms, then you can find that elsewhere and in the Santmat & RS literature. If you are aiming at something else, then please DO clarify what that might be.
“I feel that what you have described for P3, his (P3’s) meditation is this exact thing […] This thus is P3’s dialogismos/meditation. Do you see?”
— No, I do not see what your point is at all. And that’s probably because (imo) P3 has NO such “meditation”… not as you have stated and are trying to propose.
“And what is P3’s ‘sachkhand’?”
— There is none. As far as I can see in OshoRobbins example, P3 has no “sach khand”, nor does P3 believe in the existance of any “sach khand”.
” This: P3 realises that there is no Sach Khand because [sach khand] is just a CONCEPT. Hence [in reality] there is no PLACE to get to. Since there is no place – there is [also] no [need for a] path and no [need for any] meditation.”
— Yes, and that is exactly what I indicated just above.
“And at the end […] the totally ‘un-scientific argument’ (what is scientific anyway?), the same argument that you many of you accuse the guru’s comes:”
“P3 speaks – [but] you [may] not understand [if] you [remain in the duality] of knowing/unknowing and belief/non-belief. [If you] live in the mind [then you cannot recognise] that which is beyond mind.”
— Well, fyi, that is NOT at all what the gurus are accused of. The gurus (not all gurus mind you) are accused of exhibiting and promoting dogma and methods and effort and a goal, based upon a dualistic belief system, not upon direct recognition of inherent and effortless non-duality. And if you don’t understand what “scientific” is, then you ought to go educate yourself, before making comments that have no bearing on the issue.
“Oh WebGuru OshoRobbins,,,and your webdisciples.”
— Cheap sarcasm and ridicule will get you nowhere.
“How on earth do you know what the buddha realised 2,500 years ago?”
— It is not directly known. But much can be understood, ascertained, and attributed to him by the extant records of what he said and taught. That generally indicates what he had realised.
“You think he realised the one? That was His teachings? Are you sure that was his methods?”
— Again… much can indeed be understood, ascertained, and attributed to Gautama, Sakyamuni Buddha by the extant records of what he said and taught. That generally indicates what he had realised.
“And then you cite Faqir Chand who wrote books exclusvily on the ‘inner’ dimensions.”
— So what? Faqir Chand dismissed much of the RS dogma as myths, as well.
Ok..I will accept it. […] It appears you solved the riddle. In this non-duality 30,000 children in Africa dont really, realy die every day,,its our dual mind that perceives them as such.”
— That is NOT what is said, inferred, or implied by non-duality. Go study advaita before trying to link non-duality with dying children in Africa. There is no connection.
The starvation and dying in Africa is a human tradgedy of great proportion… of which no doubt all of us here have great compassion towards. So for you to attempt to imply that non-duality equals no compassion is a totally flawed and twisted and bogus interpretation and insinuation. AND… you apparently do NOT understand non-duality.
“it seems your are a webbudda a webosho a webtao and beyond A cyberspace webenlightment.”
— Sarcasm and ridicule will get you nowhere…. it just shows your antagonism and what you are really up to here.
“I dont know the truth…all I know is that these are all just words that appear in front of a screen,,,which you are reading and they in turn may or may not have a mental reaction from the readers part, which may or may not lead to physical action..can you avoid non-duality in pursuit of something you love?”
I have no idea what you are trying to say. But you seem rather confused and somewhat irrational. Perhaps you should try to articulate your point and meaning better.

tAo,
Well answered, but I still do wonder how P3 gets equipped with this ‘direct insight’.
For example, is such a P3 person alleged to be:
a) born with ‘direct insight’,
b) develop it over time by following some path, or
c) gain it in an instant through some experience?
I must also say that i think there are some very fine linguistic distinctions being made between concepts like ‘monism’ and ‘non-duality’, and also ‘enlightenment’ and ‘direct insight (recognition)’. However, I do take your point that there are subtle, but very real, differences that need to be appreciated. I will need to read up a bit more and will check out U.G. Krishnamurti.

P3 – how does he get his insight?
Well – he doesn’t.
Just as the Buddha did not DO anything to get his.
The Buddha GAVE UP.
But a REAL giving up – not a fake one.
When you give up – something happens – of its own accord.
What happens is – insight comes.
You do not bring it – there is no effort – no path – no method.
I am simply saying – no effort is required.
If you follow any method that requires you to MEDITATE or PRAY
or RECITE or CHANT – or DO ANYTHING at all. The method will keep
you trapped in SEEKING THE GOAL.
That very seeking – will keep you in duality.
The harder you try – the further you get.
Why is this?
Because effort IS THE EGO – nothing else.
Effort comes from YOU and YOU are the BARRIER.
If YOU STOP the effort – the trying – the meditation – then
YOU will disappear. In the same moment – truth will dawn.
You can call this truth by many names. It is your choice.
Words, names – these are all the play of the mind.
You can call it God, Enlightenment, Nirvana, Truth, Oneness….
I may call it Enlightenment – I may say I am enlightened.
But in the next breath I may say there is no such thing as ‘enlightenment’
because – it is not an achievement and there is nobody to get enlightened.
Is it really so difficult to understand?
ANYTHING that YOU achieve will be within DUALITY simply because there was
a YOU who achieved it.
As for me – let me make it clear.
I have achieved NOTHING – hence I expended no effort in getting to ‘nothing’.
Your problem is that you think nothing is ‘something’.
Hence you want it – the desire is created and you run after it.
I am saying do not run. Just relax. Have a cup of tea.
The entire TRAP is created in the mind and by the mind.
It’s really simple.
There is NO SACH KHAND. There is NO SAT PURUSH. There are
NO REGIONS. There are NO ‘LORDS oF EACH REGION.’
You do not need to recite five words – which represent the NAMES
of the FIVE LORDS – as a sort of password to get to the next region.
Can’t you see – this is a fairy tale – a cosmic joke.
ANYONE who tells you any form of fairy tale is deluded.
If you follow them – you will remain in duality.
RS is such a fairy tale.
Just because a lot of people believe the fairy tale – does not make it true.
A lot of children believe in Santa Claus – but that does not make him real.
How is P3 different from P1?
It is simple.
P1 has not even begun the journey – but is trying.
P3 knows there is no journey and no ‘person’ to walk it.
P3 is an ordinary person – and does not need to claim anything as there is
nothing to claim.
P3 is just having a cup of tea – enjoying the scenery around him.
P1 is very serious and wants to ‘get there fast’ and ‘please his Guru…
by doing lots of meditaiton and seva.’

OshoRobbins aint no Buddha
Nor has he ‘given up’ anything
He is so fast attached to his own idea of enlightenment, he is hardly ‘enlightened’ at all, nullifying nonentity as if he knows one P from the next.
Easy to say a whole bunch of clever P brained Buddha like stuff without an ounce of experience or understanding
P1, P2, P3, P0
P’s without pods, P’s in a pool of self denied delirium
Don’t have a clue this OshoRobbins fool
just like his churchified churchless cult followers he chooses to chide and caress with his chaste choosiness
Be the nothing first, then sprout all your highly evolved nothingness, you don’t fool no one with such self aggrandized non nullified nonentity
such clever dicks these yankee doodle daydream dandy self evolved guru’s, sprouting like pansies how prolifically perfect they are.

Ashtana,
You have a homework assignment.
Read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Having-No-Head-Rediscovery-Obvious/dp/1878019198/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243660554&sr=8-1#
I’m tired of your punk-ass attitude. You think you know what I’m all about. Well you’re clueless. Don’t come back to this blog until you have completed your assignment.
Love,
God
That’s right. It’s me, the Great Almighty, and don’t doubt it for a minute or I’ll smite your sorry punk ass. Is it worth the chance? Huh punk?

OshoRobbins,
Your comment was again quite well said, with poignant simplicity and clarity. So right on.
Ashtana,
Its getting time for you to go bye-bye.
Your attitude totally sucks.
You make personally derogatory remarks.
And your reasoning… well, there is none.
The only thing that allows you to stay here at all is because everything you say reveals just how incredibly twisted and crazed religious cultists like you really are. I have never seen anyone say so much that says so little.
I mean, do you actually enjoy playing the part of the village idiot here? It sure doesn’t speak and reflect very well for the teachings of Santmat and RS either.

Osho,
Wonderful example.
I do think there is an additional state as tAo points out. (There are 4 regions for a two set overlapping Venn diagram.) I would add one additional person (P4) or category (A4) which would correspond to transcendence of any hierarchy, mystical tradition, or assertion of individuated self. tAo calls it “beyond knowing.”
Questioning implies un-knowing and certainty implies knowing. Perhaps when the RS Master says “don’t question”, one is best to look at it as a state “beyond knowing” rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing – we just do. If a baby is hungry, feed it. If the dishes are dirty, clean them. No thought beyond the action and the form. Being worried about starving babies in Africa is reactionary not responsible. Knowing there are starving babies and being in a position to do something about it and doing it is responsible and comes from genuine compassion for “the other.” There is no longer separation between you (me) when we are in union with both knowing and unknowing. We each act according to our position in this life stream. It is so very easy to look at “don’t question” as forbidding an action when it may best be interpreted as a description of the state of mind beyond knowing.
Respects,

Osho,
I enjoyed your above comment too.
Something tells me that P3, thinks that P is just a letter, and 3 is just a number.
Roger

Ashy,
Your demeanor is deplorable and frankly you are undeserving of my help, but if you will look at the book page more closely you will find a link to used copies of the book. In my omniscience I was able to find a source for the book that saves you money.
Your loving pal,
God

“Perhaps when the RS Master says “don’t question”, one is best to look at it as a state “beyond knowing” rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing – we just do.”
—So, which RS Master interprets “don’t question” as presented above? Where can One find his exact written interpretation?
—What are these energies, that One is supposedly required to be responsible for?
—What if One is being responsible, and One doesn’t find this state of “beyond” knowing? Is One kinda screwed?
—Nothing wrong with someone interpreting a state of mind that is beyond unknowing. This would make interesting conversation. If it comes from a RS master, or a girl chopping wood, its OK.

tAo, you’re correct about why Ashy’s comments get left up for a while. I’ve got a friend who used to like to say, “Nobody’s life is ever completely wasted; they can always serve as a horrible example for others.”
Such is Ashy’s purpose on this blog. He is a marvelous recruitment tool for churchlessness, showing as he does the vacuity of fundamentalism — whether East or West. Like you said, he repeats the same meaninglessness, because there is no substance behind him.
I enjoy leaving a few of his comments up, and deleting the rant’iest of them. A couple of examples of non-sensical fundamentalism are fine, but not more than that.

Roger asked:
—So, which RS Master interprets “don’t question” as presented above? Where can One find his exact written interpretation?
The master(s) essentially say sit down, still the mind, and meditate. All other questions simply produce discursive exposition by the master(s). Only the master can elucidate if he/she means what is implied by “don’t question.” If one wishes evidence for a subjective unquestioning state of mind which the master is purported to have, then as best as I know, there is none.
—What are these energies, that One is supposedly required to be responsible for?
The energies are any energy that one is familiar with, heat, light, sound, etc., as well as those which are more subjective such as those which exist within the archetypes or more fundamentally, the quantum states of matter. When the inner states of mind are in accordance with the present state of your being in the world, this is being responsible. It is not a requirement that we be in this condition. In fact, most of the time I find myself more reactive which is a state of stress and discomfort which is a state of struggling against the world rather than flowing with it.
—What if One is being responsible, and One doesn’t find this state of “beyond” knowing? Is One kinda screwed?
No, this is a different kind of responsibility. For example, we can do good deeds (perform service), which is certainly a socially responsible thing to do, but if as a consequence we are somehow displeased and unhappy that we are not being recognized or rewarded for our action, then we are not truely being responsible. To be “responsible” coincides with the state of “beyond knowing.” As for being screwed, it is really a state of mind reacting to the situation in which it finds itself and perhaps the body. I think this is consistent with karmaless action. Essentially, all the energy states of the mind and body that drive us to being and action work “transparently” to the energies in the world. At least this is how I interpret “enlightenment.” It is simply “be here now.” To be screwed is to hold on to some idea of self and that this self can somehow be screwed. So no, one is not screwed when one is being responsively open to new experience and change and eventually dissolution. I mean, if you think about it, we’re all screwed in the reactionary sense for just having been borne. But if one can turn the idea around and ride the wave, peace fills the body and mind and the world isn’t a hostile place to be at all. At least this is how my small little bouts of experience are indicating this “spiritual” thing works when working correctly. The world really is sublimely beautiful (or horribly ugly) within this bounded awareness. The experiences eventually will dissolve but if one can disolve one’s mental image of the self along with the body’s decay, the beauty is there and enjoyable.
—Nothing wrong with someone interpreting a state of mind that is beyond unknowing. This would make interesting conversation. If it comes from a RS master, or a girl chopping wood, its OK.
Well, beyond knowing is beyond knowing and though conversation can be held about it from the periphery within states of knowing and unknowing, the conversation is, and will always be, a peripheral epiphenomena (i.e. secondary in nature).
Respects,

Jayme, you said: “I do think there is an additional state as tAo points out. tAo calls it “beyond knowing.”
— I did’nt say that “there is an additional state”. As least I don’t recollect ever saying that… and also I don’t know what you mean by “an additional state”, and also I don’t see what is meant by “beyond knowing”. I think it was OshoRobbins who had said or indicated something like that.
The phrase “beyond knowing” doesn’t make sense to me. Unless your use of “beyond knowing” is meant as the ‘unknowable’.
So there seems to be some confusion here. And I believe it was OshoRobbins who mentioned that, not I.
I myself just don’t see any “state” of so-called “beyond knowing”. Imo, there are only these: the known, the unknown, and the unknowable. So when you say “beyond knowing” do you mean the ‘unknowable’? It isn’t a “state”… and unlike the ‘unknown’ (which could become known), the ‘unknowable’ is that which can never be known. So in this case, its important to define or clarify what it is that you are referring to when you say “beyond knowing”.

Thanks for correcting me tAo.
You are right, I’m trying to play catch up reading through all the words, which is difficult for me. I didn’t realize you were quoting OshoRobbins and I mis-understood the reference. My appologies.
Yes: “beyond knowing” = “unknowable”.
“Beyond knowing” is the containing set (or possibly a superset: how to know?) to the known and unknown. I am thinking of it as the “boundary” for all that is or is not known. However, I think this “boundary” is the ineffable field of creative potential which the present is. It contains and is contained by all that is known and unknown, all that exists and is nonexistent, all that is and is not. The “state” that I claim it is, is all states of knowing and unknowing and the emptiness that is their form which is unknowable. I appologize, the words and thoughts disappear… I just don’t know.
So the uknowable state, is what is ( I am that I am ). Being present is, in my opinion, experiencing the ineffable from within this skin bag of being but in this experience is the emptiness around which the experience is enfolded. I can’t get outside the fishbowl with these thoughts. I suppose, after all this floundering, I’m just agreeing that as you said, “the ‘unknowable’ is that which can never be known.”

Jayme,
You said:
“I didn’t realize you were quoting OshoRobbins and I mis-understood the reference. My appologies.”
— Sure, no problem.
“Beyond knowing” […] I am thinking of it as the “boundary” for all that is or is not known. […] I think this “boundary” is the ineffable field of creative potential which the present is. It contains and is contained by all that is known and unknown, all that exists and is nonexistent, all that is and is not.”
— I don’t agree with that elaboration. You seem like you are talking about the “unknown”. The “unknown” is whatever is not presently known, but which could or may (or may not) become known at some future date. On the other hand, the “unknowable” can never be known. So there is absolutely NOTHING you can say or know about the “unknowable”. Yet you have speculated some things here. So you are necessarily talking about the “unknown”, not the “unknowable”. So again, there is not anything that can be said (or speculated) about the “unknowable”… because it is UNKNOWABLE. Do you see the difference? So that’s why I say that whatever you may be speculating about, is only about the present “unknown” (which could someday become a known), and not the “unknowable”. The unknowable is that which is forever out of reach of knowing… so nothing, absolutely nothing can be said (or known)about it. Whatever it is, it is unknowable (not just unknown).
“The “state” that I claim it is, is all states of knowing and unknowing and the emptiness that is their form which is unknowable.”
— Again, you can’t say ANYTHING about the unknowable. You can only speculate about the unknown. Whatever is now unknown, could become known at some later date.
“So the uknowable state, is what is ( I am that I am ).”
— No, if you say “unknowable”, then there is nothing you can say about it.
“Being present is, in my opinion, experiencing the ineffable from within this skin bag of being but in this experience is the emptiness around which the experience is enfolded.”
— That may be, but what you describe is either the known or what is currently unknown, but not the unknowable.
“I can’t get outside the fishbowl with these thoughts.”
— That’s because you are attempting to define the unknowable, which is impossible… because, ‘the unknowable’ is simply unknowable. Forget about the unknowable. Just concern yourself with whatever is known and whatever is (currently) “unknown”.
“I suppose, after all this floundering, I’m just agreeing that as you said, “the ‘unknowable’ is that which can never be known.”
— Yes, thats the point… so now you see.

tAo,
Yes – lol.

Ashtana,
Just read your comment.
Thank you for pointing out that I ain’t no Buddha.
Who wants to be Buddha?
I have no desire to be a Buddha. I am simply ME – and that is enough.
I have no set standard to live up to. No moral code – no ‘set of rules’
that prove ‘enlightenment’.
You call me “this OshoRobbins fool”. You are absolutely correct.
I am a fool and I enjoy being a fool. Maybe you could come to
the ‘fool party’ and hang out with all the fools.
It is fun being a fool. Because you can simply be yourself and break all
the so-called rules of the intelligent people. After all – you are a fool!
Let me quote from the posting that caused your reaction:
P3 is an ordinary person – and does not need to claim anything
as there is nothing to claim.
Like I said – I am just having a cup of tea and enjoying the scene
around me.
I have no churchless cult followers. I don’t need ‘followers’
Ashtana,
In response to your latest message:
If in your opinion – all of us here are
deluded
fraud ass
self-righteous
godforsaken
self-indoctrinated
delinquent
arrogant
punk ass pricks
and self-satisfied fraudulent prats
then what are you doing here?
Why would you listen to such people?
You must obviously enjoy our company.
I suggest you go back to the Holy Satsang of your RS guru
where they have only the truth and they are all fully
enlightened and reside in Sach Khand.
Why bother with us fools?
Maybe this is really what you are feeling about RS but do not have
the courage to say it – so you project it onto the churchless.
You are obviously deeply unhappy and angry about something.
Examine yourself, my friend. Find out why a few people having an
ordinary discussion on this forum would cause such a strong reaction
in you.
If you are strong in your faith or whatever you believe – then please
continue on your path. Who rattled your cage anyway?
Nobody cares if you think we are fools.
Perhaps we are. Let us be. Enjoy the show. Follow your own path.
And good luck in arriving in Sach Khand.
I’ll see you there – if you ever arrive.
And if you do – I’ll kick your ass – just for a laugh
and then have a cup of tea!
Oh – I forgot – do they have asses in Sach Khand?
And cups of tea?
By the way – who told you I am “enlightened” – I don’t even know what
it means!

Jayme,
Thanks for your replies.
You initially mentioned,
“Questioning implies un-knowing and certainty implies knowing. Perhaps when the RS Master says “don’t question”, one is best to look at it as a state “beyond knowing” rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing – we just do.”
—Explain again, the difference between the states of “beyond knowing” and “being forbidden” in relation to the RS Master saying “don’t” question. Please reply specifically to what is being asked of you.
—Give specific examples of these “energies” you mentioned, that we find ourselves, as associated within a particular state beyond knowing.
Your information on this topic sounds very interesting.
Best wishes,
Roger

Hi Roger,
tAo pretty much identified flaw in the convoluted “reasoning.” Essentially, beyond knowing = unknowable and is … not knowable.
Though I have concepts, I am not very qualified without a great deal more research to talk on these issues beyond the most elementary phenomena from classical electromagetics. The ideas get very flakey very fast without supporting evidence. Perhaps you may find reading about the “quanton” interesting.
(I’ve cut out the details.)
Anyway, please read tAo’s comments, “the ‘unknowable’ is that which can never be known.”
Respects,

Jayme,
Thanks again for your reply.
I was hoping to get a clarification of what you meant in your statement,
“Questioning implies un-knowing and certainty implies knowing. Perhaps when the RS Master says “don’t question”, one is best to look at it as a state “beyond knowing” rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing – we just do.”
—The above statement is your statement.
—I was hoping for a clarification of what you meant by states of “beyond” knowing and being forbidden, in relation to when the RS Master says, “don’t question.”
—Your clarification would bring me from an “unknown” understanding to a “known” understanding.
—This is a dualistic blog, so any knowns and unknowns shall fall with the realm of dualism. Thats OK. No big deal.
—Why create an unknowable out of what you stated?
Best wishes to you,
Roger

If the RS Master is a supposed GIHF, then being a human, I would hope to communicate with that particular RS Master. This would simply be from one human to another. As a human, I might need some clarification or advice on a particular subject or object. An example, the David person, with his fear of death. So, if the RS Master replies, “Don’t question!!! or It’s unknowable!!!!,” then what am I to think? I simply need some simple help. How would the RS Master give me some guidance?
Likewise, as an initiate, I’ve been told, the RS Master(GIHF) shall guide me thru the different astral planes to the Sach Kand realm. However, out of hundreds of thousands of initiates, through the history of gurus and masters, very few if any have actually engaged in this journey. So the guru or master isn’t much of an astral guide.
—So what’s the big deal with this guru or master, if One can not communicate or transverse, or receive guidance?

—So what’s the big deal with this guru or master, if One can not communicate or transverse, or receive guidance?
We do Roger, we do communicate, and we do receive guidance, inner guidance and direct communication. You see all we need to do is surrender our ego (no small task, takes a long, long time). Some people become so intoxicated with the mind and their own cleverness and it takes over so it’s a battle with this mind which is in control… this is why people give up and stop trying because its not easy… its much easier to say, oh I don’t have to do anything, I don’t have to try, there’s nowhere to go, I am one with everything, there is nothing more than this… this is the cop out. It’s so easy to be misled, misguided and taken off the track for a while but then something absolutely beautiful happens and we are drawn back, not into the organization, just a beautiful direct communication with spirit, with the Shabd Master. And even when we have sometimes been a little lost we actually learn so much more and move on stronger in self, always trying to be absolutely honest and true to oneself.
No need to question really, direct communication, cannot be explained, cannot be proven to anyone else, nothing better than this.

Jen,
Thanks for your reply. Again, you are a good person.
You stated,
“No need to question really, direct communication, cannot be explained, cannot be proven to anyone else, nothing better than this.”
—Nothing wrong with this statement. However, does that statement align with a “Science” of the Soul? If there is a science of the soul, does the Scientific Method become the foundation of this “Science” of the Soul?
Within the Scientific Method,
—Questioning in a particular field of science is very important. Any data, I have generated, I would welcome inquiry.
—There is a need for direct communication, this is very important. Direct observations is a type of direct communication.
—Explanations are required, this is part of reproduciblity, falsifiablity, etc.
Throw in a word like, proveablity, too.
One thing, Jen, you could help me with, that is, is there such thing as a Science of the Soul? Does this Science use the Scientific Method as it’s core foundation?
If it doesn’t, that’s OK. The Scientific Method doesn’t have to be everywhere and anywhere.
Finally, I’m not finding fault with you.
Best wishes,
Roger
p.s. cann’t…..should be can’t

Roger, good points. Jen, I respect your subjective personal beliefs. But what you said is just how many, if not most, Christians speak. They feel a direct communication with Jesus or God. They get messages from Jesus/God. They talk to Jesus/God.
Ditto with many other sorts of divinities. So are all of these people, including you, to be believed? Are some deluding themselves and us? If so, which are telling the truth?
SInce these questions can’t be answered, Roger is correct in asking whether a “science of the soul” exists. If all we have are competing metaphysical claims, this is religion, not science.
A possible way out of this would be if people who claim to talk with God, or another divinity, presented evidence that they learn things not accessible to normal human consciousness. Yet to my knowledge this doesn’t happen. People are left outwardly unchanged, which is why I like to say that “god is good for nothing.”
Nothing that makes any difference in the world. All that is evident are only subjective feelings about god.

“A possible way out of this would be if people who claim to talk with God, or another divinity, presented evidence that they learn things not accessible to normal human consciousness.”
—Yes, not accessible to normal human consciousness.
“……….but then something absolutely beautiful happens and we are drawn back, not into the organization, just a beautiful direct communication with spirit, with the Shabd Master.”
—So, this direct communication, with spirit, could possibly be a non-conceptual non-mental activity, where science is “not” needed.
—Hopefully, Jen can clarify.

Roger,
Within the Scientific Method,
—Questioning in a particular field of science is very important. Any data, I have generated, I would welcome inquiry.
—There is a need for direct communication, this is very important. Direct observations is a type of direct communication.
—Explanations are required, this is part of reproduciblity, falsifiablity, etc.
Throw in a word like, proveablity, too.
With regard to questioning, I find it very helpful to question my own beliefs, concepts, and opinions in that I ask myself “am I right?” In other words being aware of what my mind is thinking. I am also finding myself more in the mode of feeling that now I need to take more of a “leap of faith”, in other words if I am to do this experiment within myself, as well as following the precepts of Sant Mat to the best of my ability, I have to let go and plunge in wholeheartedly with no expectations and just experience whatever happens. Then to confirm those experiences there will have to be reproducibility and proof (for me).
When the Master said to someone “don’t question” this was a personal answer directed to that person and only that person will know or should know what he meant by this. The Masters speak very directly to whomsoever they are speaking to at the time. My personal belief is that it is very important to connect with the inner Shabd Master.
Then, maybe because the soul is the direct observer this is closer to what you say:
—So, this direct communication, with spirit, could possibly be a non-conceptual non-mental activity, where science is “not” needed.
Brian,
I understand what you mean when you say people believe they have direct communication with Jesus or God. The difference is how do they know it is really Jesus or God that they are communicating with? And yes, an astral form, which they might believe to be an angel or some other higher being, can visit people which they then personalize according to their own beliefs or perceptions. The mind can project all sorts of images and we have to be very discerning.
I have seen my Master when he was in a physical body and because of this I can recognize his inner form projected through the Shabd. This is the main difference between Sant Mat and organized religions.

Hi Roger,
In reference to your June 03, 2009 at 07:44 AM entry:
Please know that categorization of knowledge doesn’t stop until the mind stops, imo. Knowledge can never be completed and the known and unknown are endless in the wheel of time. I expect that even “truth” within this definition of mental knowledge is ever changing.
I haven’t gone back through to edit my initial response but here is the removed content:
begin
{
“Forbidden” is a term that is used in different ways. Consider two examples: semiconductor device physics, and societial taboos. In physics, for a given set of conditions, these forbidden states which describe gaps between electron energy levels simply do not exist and are unknowable. In social forms, taboos are broken all the time and so being forbidden is a delusional state of being – imo. For example, it is forbidden for a christian to marry a muslim; you must always drive on the left side of the road and stop at red lights; or you must have a living master on the path. So from the perspective of social law, the master forbids questioning by saying “don’t question,” but in fact, when one truely reaches a physical state of not questioning, the difference is one more of the physics based forbidden state rather than the social form – imo. The RS master(s) has indicated that the question should be asked of the lord (an alternate form of “don’t question”) and in fact what happens, in my experience, is that the question simply goes away (becomes unimportant) when sitting very quietly in body and mind. However, one never reaches “beyond knowing” or the forbidden state of the unknowable since it is only an ideal which is a fictitious goal spun out of a belief dynamic.
The so called “state beyond knowing” is not a real energy state in the sense of being knowable. The notion of a creative potential field is still a concept within the fishbowl and one cannot actually approach an unknowable state … it is simply a non sequitur.
Speaking from inside the fishbowl. I have too many ideas about fields, virtual particles, and quantons. In electromagnetics, there are potential and dynamic fields. Potential fields don’t propagate or have an independent existence beyond the source from which they emanate and dynamic fields do (at least within some subset of the universe). I was envisioning the “unknowable” state as being something like an emptiness out of which the creative potential coalesces into ordered dynamical energies. I think virtual particles don’t exist in present conceptual understanding and are inferred through measurements of momentum, and energy preservation by employing these concrete particles in particle physics. Anyway, these concepts distort the particles’ reality through projection into object space.
I was thinking in terms of highest “state” of the unknown as being like an infinite static potential whose source is the unknowable as it has no condition under which energy exchange can occur to give it definition. As one moves “down” through the static condition, there are evanescent fields which fluctuate but do not propagate and from this quanton field there is concretization and physical universe formation. So the energies (states) I was thinking of are these fields of potential whose source is asymptotically the unknowable – which as I pointed out is not logical.
I think that M theory proposes vibrating “strings” and that the initial formation of the universe may be explainable as a collision between the bulk media of two branes (multidimentional forms of strings). The point of collision creates a universe and all the consequent macroscopic and quantum field dynamics begin differentiating shortly after this event until we reach our present energy states within this complex of mind, body, being. I haven’t been convinced yet that there is an Omega point as mentioned by Teilhard de Chardin in “The Phenomenon of Man” to which we are moving, as this would imply teleology (a dirty word in science). The idea of teleology implies and ultimate cause (God) and purpose.
As for quanton energy (and proto-matter). Below the Planck scale energy is very much only describable in a probablistic emergence out of the quantum background fluctuations. Matter and energy are “quantum foam” formed of quanton order that exist on a deep sea of zero point energy which I think can somehow be defined by the initial creation parameters of this universe. (There may be infinite many universes – each with their own parameters.) Simply put energy = “a force.” But energy is not simple. For example, what is the energy of an idea? Without exaggeration – a few neurotransmitters 10s of nanometers across and a few trillionths of a watt of acoustic power applied in just the right circumstance can catalize the transformation of the entire world! A kind of “butterfly effect” in complex dynamic systems. The physical energy has much simpler laws by which thermodynamics, electrodynamics, and field theory are pretty good at describing.
}
end
I hope this didn’t just muddy it all up again.
Respects,

Wow, Jayme dear… clear as mud, lol… think I’ll stick with Duhism 🙂

Jen, only you knows the reality of your contact with the guru’s “radiant form.” A few thoughts come to mind, though.
Why would a vision be more reliable if you have seen the person physically who now appears metaphysically? Seems like the mind would be even more prone to imagining or projecting a person’s form if he or she had seen them in person. I have dreams of people I’ve known. The dreams look like the person, not surprisingly.
As noted before, one confirmation that you are communicating with someone other than yourself would be if that entity told you, or other people, things that you couldn’t know on your own. Or even better, that no human being could know.
So could you share some of that knowledge with us, in the spirit of a “science of the soul”? If you aren’t willing to share specifics, I’d be interested in generalities with some amount of detail.
What are you told by the radiant form? What do you say to the radiant form? Is there anything you’ve learned that wasn’t part of your knowledge base, or that of other people? (Like a specific prediction of a future event.)

Brian, I totally agree that I might have created something that I dearly would love to see, but hey, every little bit helps. Sorry I’m not that advanced to actually be chatting away to him somewhere up in Trikuti, but I’ll let you know if I do manage to find out any exciting predictions… sorry I’m being flippant again… not much help I’m afraid with any details.
Cheers

Jen,
You stated:
“When the Master said to someone “don’t question” this was a personal answer directed to that person and only that person will know or should know what he meant by this.”
— How could you know this to be so?? Were you there at the time? How do you know this was “a personal answer directed to that person and only that person”??
You also stated: “The Masters speak very directly to whomsoever they are speaking to at the time.”
— That may or may not be true depending on the circumstance. The admonition of “don’t question” could be to one individual or as a general statement to many. The real issue surrounding such an admonition is, why would someone (especially a spiritual teacher) tell anyone not to question? To attempt to suppress and inhibit an individual’s natural inclination to question 9especially in matters of spirituality), is both controlling and evasive. Are you perhaps defending that?
“My personal belief is that it is very important to connect with the inner Shabd Master.
— That is your belief. But… what is this “inner Shabd Master”? Where is the evidence that any such thing or entity exists? From seeing visions in meditation? From hearing voices in meditation? How do
you actually know there is any such thing as an “inner Shabd Master”? From thoughts in your mind? From RS literature or lectures? How do you know this to be true?
“the soul is the direct observer”
— What is this “the soul”?? How do you know there is such a thing?? Is “soul” just merely another fancy name for a living individual? And how do you know that this “soul” is “the direct observer”??
“people believe they have direct communication with Jesus or God. The difference is how do they know it is really Jesus or God that they are communicating with?”
— They don’t know.
“an astral form, which they might believe to be an angel or some other higher being, can visit people which they then personalize according to their own beliefs or perceptions. The mind can project all sorts of images and we have to be very discerning.”
— The same applies to visions and supposed communications etc with “inner shabd masters”, “radiant forms”, and the like.
“I have seen my Master when he was in a physical body and because of this I can recognize his inner form projected through the Shabd.”
— That is merely what RS teachings and dogma preach. But how do YOU know that is the case? You seem to be making alot of abstract assumptions… but based upon what? Upon your own experience? How do you know if any of that is true, or just a projection of your mind?
“This is the main difference between Sant Mat and organized religions.”
— I beg to differ. There is NO difference at all. Organized religion believes in similar things. Why is Santmat any different? Your example (above) shows no such difference. It is just another belief in the supernatural. Just because you saw some guru in person (or via photo), does not prevent you from projecting an illusory vision of the same in meditation. So Santmat is not exempt from this happening either. Jen, your reasoning here is totally faulty. Just because you know what someone looks like in real life, does not prevent you from imagining the same image in your meditation.
So your position boils down to a matter mere faith and belief alone. frankly, that’s all you have presented here.

tAo,
You are welcome to your opinion just as I am to mine and there is no point in arguing or debating the point because I am entitled to voice my point of view just as much as you are entitled to voice your entirely opposing point of view and btw I addressed my comments to Roger and Brian and not to you.

The astral reality is another reality just like dreams is another reality. No less no higher just different. Laws that exist in this dimension do not apply to laws applied in the astral dimension. That does not mean that there is a discontinuity between them as each dimensions exists within and around the other. Like dreams whereby you use your dream body, the physical world whereaby you use your physical body, and even imagination/thought whereaby you use your thought, for the sake of better word, body.
If you see the astral body of the master, you must also have an astral body. To see his causal, you must have causal body. Remember these are just words that describe relationships more than states.
In Sant Mat, it said that, no in absolute way, that at this level, in order to understand and connect some lines and dots, that we are our focus of attention. We are always soul etc. but within this context we are our focus of attention. If all day long we question,,,we are the questioning. Knowing is not question.
The gure sayin not to question, I take it to imply two things: One, stop questioning, so your mind mantra can shift focus and undeerstand/listen to the answer. And that the state achieved is that by you ‘do not question’ anymore.
The evolution of science has been dramatic the last forty/40 years. If knowing the truth ONLY via science, it excludes probably a trillion of humans that lived before the scientific revolution. I am of the opinnion, that science can help this understanding and is not the only and central conduit to it. You can still understand thus the ultimate truth and still somehow hold that the earth is flat. You may realise is not flat anymore, after you realise the truth. But a-priori knowledge that the earth is flat and that universe does not run on epicycle, is not so important. This is because the search is inwards…or at least begins as such. And inward search is something that all people in all ages have the capacity for…from the caveman to the astronaut.
Parallel this arguement with the fact that science itself does not know the answers…that it deals itself mostly with exoteric physical laws…(that have come full circle back to subjectivity via strings and quantum physics). The branch of science that deals with inner phenomenan is psychatry and psychology…and thanks but not thanks…I prefer and I am inclined in reading schools of thought who have dealt with this issues for thousands of years,,not a modernity branch of science not older than 100 years old. That does not mean i reject psychiatry,,,we can learn much from it,
But the truth,,,or the search for the truth should be available to all peeple…in all ages,,,that have any time of knowledge,,,any type of cultures (bones in their lips,,,,nike on their feet….etc). From caveman to astronat,,,you cannot reduce truth to a western scientific discource that has been refomulating itself since thet day of aristotle.

Jayme,
Thanks again for your reply.
Again, I was hoping to get a clarification of what you meant in your statement,
“Questioning implies un-knowing and certainty implies knowing. Perhaps when the RS Master says “don’t question”, one is best to look at it as a state “beyond knowing” rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing – we just do.”
—Again, the above statement is your statement. Nothing wrong with a gift of electromagnetic gab. Are you afraid to say you “don’t know” what you were stating? Again, barking out a technical abstraction is ok. However, when asked to be specific, you seem trapped into replying with more electromagnetic abstractions.
—My concern, if someone(an inititate), who honestly needs help, and the RS master says, “don’t question,” they might seek you out for advise and guidance. With your “gift of electromagnetic gab” the initiate could be mislead into thinking there is a “Science” in SantMat. When in actuality, you really know very little, regarding the spiritual needs of such.
—Again, nothing wrong with you, however, be careful in any communications with other initiates, in need of some honest help and guidance. You might unknowingly be doing some indirect damage.
Best wishes,
Roger

Jen,
Thanks for your reply too.
You stated,
“I am also finding myself more in the mode of feeling that now I need to take more of a “leap of faith”, in other words if I am to do this experiment within myself, as well as following the precepts of Sant Mat to the best of my ability, I have to let go and plunge in wholeheartedly with no expectations and just experience whatever happens. Then to confirm those experiences there will have to be reproducibility and proof (for me).”
—This is OK. I liked the, “let go and plunge in wholeheartedly with no expectations and just experience whatever happens” part.
In addition,
I liked, your statement, “the soul is the direct observer” this is closer to what you say: could possibly be a non-conceptual non-mental activity, where science is “not” needed.
—So within SantMat, the Soul is the direct observer, and engages in no conceptual-mental activity. In a way, the Soul is the Scientist, and there is no brain activity, for the Soul to engage in dualist concepts and mental activity. Is this your understanding? If so, thats OK.
If not, please write more on the role of the Soul in such astral travels and radiant form observations.
Best wishes to you,
Roger

Jen, a process note…
If you go on a blog and post a comment, expressing your view about something or other, you are inviting further comments — including criticism, questioning, debate, skepticism, affirmation, whatever.
I’m sure you realize this. I just found it interesting that you said there is no point in arguing or debating some points you brought up.
Well, if you brought them up, you have to expect that someone might challenge them. If you don’t want to be challenged, you shouldn’t post public comments on the Internet.
There also isn’t any such thing as directing comments to certain people. Comments are visible to everybody who visits this blog, and anyone is welcome to respond to a comment.

Jen,
You wrote: “…there is no point in arguing or debating the point because I am entitled to voice my point of view just as much as you are entitled to voice your entirely opposing point of view…”
–I don’t think the issue is whether you and tAo are entitled to your opinions. I think this goes without saying. Also, you don’t need to argue if you don’t want to, but if you make statements here others may question them. Your response to tAo appears evasive. Do you have any response to the issues he raised?

Jen says:
“tAo, You are welcome to your opinion just as I am to mine and there is no point in arguing or debating the point because I am entitled to voice my point of view just as much as you are entitled to voice your entirely opposing point of view and btw I addressed my comments to Roger and Brian and not to you.”
Jen,
Brian has already expressed virtually the same thing that I would have said in my reply to your comment to me:
Brian said: “If you go on a blog and post a comment, expressing your view about something or other, you are inviting further comments — including criticism, questioning, debate, skepticism, affirmation, whatever.” …and… “you said there is no point in arguing or debating some points you brought up. Well, if you brought them up, you have to expect that someone might challenge them. If you don’t want to be challenged, you shouldn’t post public comments on the Internet. There also isn’t any such thing as directing comments to certain people. Comments are visible to everybody who visits this blog, and anyone is welcome to respond to a comment.”
I also would like to reiterate what Tuson asked of you:
“Your response to tAo appears evasive. Do you have any response to the issues he raised?”

A,
I really enjoyed your comment, thank you, and I agree with what you say:
“The astral reality is another reality just like dreams is another reality. No less no higher just different. Laws that exist in this dimension do not apply to laws applied in the astral dimension.”
Also, when you say:
“In Sant Mat, it said that, no in absolute way, that at this level, in order to understand and connect some lines and dots, that we are our focus of attention. We are always soul etc. but within this context we are our focus of attention. If all day long we question,,,we are the questioning. Knowing is not question. _The gure sayin not to question, I take it to imply two things: One, stop questioning, so your mind mantra can shift focus and undeerstand/listen to the answer. And that the state achieved is that by you ‘do not question’ anymore.”
I am starting to realize this more and more now because I probably do question too much and there is a fine balance between being discerning and at the same time having faith in one’s own ability and knowingness, especially when it comes to the inner spirit or soul being.
Roger,
You ask: “the Soul is the Scientist, and there is no brain activity, for the Soul to engage in dualist concepts and mental activity. Is this your understanding?”
I agree yes, the soul is the direct observer and it really is not involved with the dualist concepts of the mind – thanks Rog.
Brian,
You must realize that on this blog there are people with very definite views and unfortunately some are totally against Sant Mat and they will attack anyone who does not agree with their views. So, because I basically do not like to argue but at the same time like the freedom to be able to express my own views and do enjoy an objective debate, perhaps I feel quite threatened by others here who I have observed to be very cutting, harsh, aggressive, downright rude and nasty and so I avoid talking directly to such people if I can.
That’s why I have changed back and forth because at times I really feel I shouldn’t be here on this blog and then at other times I think it is good for me because I need to become stronger and have more faith in myself and my own particular perceptions which I have built up over many, many years of being on a path of self discovery. At times it is a bit overwhelming and I don’t particularly like feeling that I am under attack from certain quarters.
I tend to see things differently from others and I feel it might actually be important for others to see things from another perspective, but then it is necessary for all parties to be coming from a more open minded perspective, that is what a debate is all about. The very skeptical, atheistic, scientific kind of mind can be extremely arrogant in its opinions and not open at all to any kind of metaphysical phenomena, so I feel I am doing battle here entirely on my own, except for a few people who are usually neither satsangis nor ex-satsangis, so have a more objective and open understanding.
tucson,
You ask: “Your response to tAo appears evasive. Do you have any response to the issues he raised?”
Its just too difficult when it becomes an argument with someone with a totally opposing attitude to mine especially when I know it will never resolve and it just seems pointless. I’m not here to argue, I do listen and learn in a debate but don’t want to go round and round in circles with no objective end in view.
tAo,
You will see my comments to Brian and tucson above.
Cheers

“The astral reality is another reality just like dreams is another reality. No less no higher just different. Laws that exist in this dimension do not apply to laws applied in the astral dimension.”
“In Sant Mat, it said that, no in absolute way, that at this level, in order to understand and connect some lines and dots, that we are our focus of attention. We are always soul etc. but within this context we are our focus of attention. If all day long we question,,,we are the questioning. Knowing is not question.”
“The guru saying not to question, I take it to imply two things: One, stop questioning, so your mind mantra can shift focus and understand/listen to the answer. And that state is achieved if you ‘do not question’ anymore.”
— The above three quotations by “A” amount to nothing more than more preaching of Santmat dogma. But this is not the place for more preaching of Santmat. Preach that stuff to the satsangi believers, not to the Churchless. You satsangis seem to be constantly trying to hi-jack this blog’s commentary in order to preach more of your Santmat rhetoric and dogma.
I myself am not “against” Santmat, but I am very much against and rather tried of having Santmat dogma repeatedly posted and preached on this site by satsangi believers who are only interested in posting Santmat dogma to the exclusion of all else.
Next, Jen says:
“I probably do question too much”
— On the contrary.
“having faith in one’s own ability and knowingness”
— A “knowingness” of what??
“the soul is the direct observer and it really is not involved with the dualist concepts of the mind”
— And what is this supposed “soul” the “direct observer” of??
“on this blog there are people with very definite views and unfortunately some are totally against Sant Mat”
— Who exactly are these people who are “totally against Sant Mat”?? And what exactly are their “views”??
“the soul is the direct observer and it really is not involved with the dualist concepts of the mind”
— And what is this “soul” observing, if not the “the mind??
“I basically do not like to argue”
“I feel quite threatened by others here”
“so I avoid talking directly to such people if I can.”
“at times I really feel I shouldn’t be here on this blog”
“I need to become stronger and have more faith in myself and my own particular perceptions which I have built up over many, many years of being on a path of…”
— A path of Santmat.
“I don’t particularly like feeling that I am under attack”
— Then don’t feel that way.
“I feel it might actually be important for others to see things from another perspective”
— Perhaps they do, and you just don’t see that.
“it is necessary for all parties to be coming from a more open minded perspective”
— Practice what you preach.
“skeptical, atheistic, scientific kind of mind can be extremely arrogant in its opinions and not open at all to any kind of metaphysical phenomena”
— “metaphysical phenomena” means: supernaturalism.
“a few people who are usually neither satsangis nor ex-satsangis, so have a more objective and open understanding”
— You are basically looking for people who are or tend to be sympathetic (like you are) to Santmat. But the Churchless is not the best place to find those kind of people.
“Its just too difficult when it becomes an argument with someone with a totally opposing attitude to mine especially when I know it will never resolve and it just seems pointless.”
— Thats mostly because you do not wish to look at your own unexamined assumptions and beliefs. It is your own recoil to anyone (like myself) who challenges your cherished assumptions and beliefs. But its not others (like myself) who are your enemies. Its your own attachment to your opinions, assumptions, beliefs, “knowingness”, and so on that is causing you to feel distress.

tAo,
Okay, watch when all the satsangis stop visiting this blog, it will just totally dry up, fizzle out… there will be no stimulus for discussion… it will become very boring and then Brian will post some contentious issue and give it a challenging title as in
“April 27, 2006
God-man or Asshole? The guru conundrum.”
to provoke a response because everyone knows which path he has followed and probably which “guru” he is referring to and then you complain because you don’t want Sant Mat discussed on this forum?!

Jen says:
“watch when all the satsangis stop visiting this blog, it will just totally dry up, fizzle out… there will be no stimulus for discussion… it will become very boring”
— Thats an awfully lame conjecture if you ask me. I seriously doubt that a bunch of satsangi nincompoops are the life and soul of this blog, or that it will somehow just “dry up” and “fizzle out” without an annoying bunch of dogmatic believers (who resent the fact that some Churchless folks don’t find RS dogma so sacred or convincing) hanging around. And as a matter of fact, it would become quite open and refreshing if they would all just go away like you say they will.
“everyone knows which path he [Brian] has followed and probably which “guru” he is referring to and then you complain because you don’t want Sant Mat discussed on this forum?”
— There is a very big difference between the Churchless issues and points that Brian raises relative to the RSSB… and the excessive and repeated preachings of Santmat dogma by RS cult believers whose only agenda is to post excessive and repeated preachings of Santmat dogma. And I am not the only one here that does not care to see more of that.
So… I think I am now going to refrain from making any further comments or responses to people (like yourself and others) whose intent is to try to keep the Santmat/RS dogma going around here as long as possible. I am simply not going to give it any more energy. Ignoring it will be my vote against it.
I am tired of all this Santmat occupying the focus, and I know that some others are too. So I will just let Brian delete the Santmat preaching comments, if and as he chooses. And I really think he would rather discuss a lot of other things (besides Santmat) as well.
My question to you Jen is… if you are so much into Santmat, then what are you doing here? But then I guess I already answered that above. If you really want or need sympathy and support for your Santmat trip, then just go attend a satsang.

tAo,
I’m not looking for support or sympathy. I’m pretty much churchless myself, never liked organized religion, just doing my own thing in my own way and sometimes defending when I see an injustice or unfairness.
So, if this is truly a churchless blog why do ex-satsangis post their anti Sant Mat dogma here? Why don’t they go to the ex-satsangi websites?

Jen, a better question is, “If this is a churchless blog (which it is), why do churched people preach their belief system here?” As I’ve noted before, this is like a vegetarian going on the Cattlemen’s Association web site and urging meatlessness.
I hope you’ll read, and consider, the post I’m writing now — and will publish tonight. You have a wrong view of “dogma,” a word you used in your comment above.
Dogma is a positive belief. Questioning dogma isn’t dogmatic. It is an exercise in reason, the scientific method, open-mindedness.
To say, “There is no evidence for X” isn’t dogmatic. It’s truthful, if there really is no evidence for X.
You seem frustrated because you’ve been challenged after making statements about your mystical experiences and spiritual beliefs. Well, provide evidence to support those statements, or expect to continue to be challenged.

Hi Jen,
lol. 🙂
=====
Roger,
Evidently the post was more confusing that I intended. I think that’s why I cut it out originally.
Perhaps this is a clearer answer to your repeated question about my statement below Posted by: Roger | June 05, 2009 at 07:59 AM:
[J] – attributed to Jayme
[R] – attributed to Roger
[J]”Questioning implies un-knowing and certainty implies knowing. Perhaps when the RS Master says “don’t question”, one is best to look at it as a state “beyond knowing” rather than a state of being forbidden. Being responsible to those energies in which we find ourselves is being in a state beyond knowing – we just do.”
[R] Again, the above statement is your statement. Nothing wrong with a gift of electromagnetic gab. Are you afraid to say you “don’t know” what you were stating? Again, barking out a technical abstraction is ok. However, when asked to be specific, you seem trapped into replying with more electromagnetic abstractions.
[J] No, not afraid of stating I don’t know. I am having a difficult time understanding what you don’t understand about this statement. All words are abstractions. It is important to establish a common consensus on vocabulary for communications to occur. It is clear, I don’t do a very good job at defining my terms.
[J] I’ll try to answer your question more carefully as follows:
[J] Questioning (inquiry) comes from a curiosity for knowing something. This means one doesn’t know it and so the beginning of the first statement “Questioning implies un-knowing.”
[J] Certainty means faith or belief (a conviction). The knowledge that a person has and is certain is true, may be false, but it is still a form of knowing. Hence the portion of the statement “certainty implies knowing.”
[J] As for knowing what the RS master means – I don’t know and so I started the second sentence off with “perhaps” and so the sentence is my interpretation (or imo). I use this interpretation because it so closely fits what the RS masters have said numerous times about it being essential to sit down and quiet the body and mind (i.e. “don’t question”) which has also been stated in answer to numerous questions by satsangis about why God put us here – to which the RS master replies that “only He knows” and that the disciple should “ask the Lord Himself”(i.e., sit down, shut up and meditate – as I interpret this). To look at the “don’t question” issue, I am claiming that in the most peaceful “state” or condition that one achieves in the RS practice (“beyond” the Sat Lok or imperishable region) is this “beyond knowing.” The sixth region in the RS practice is the invisible region (Alakh Lok) and the seventh is the inaccessible region (Agam Lok) and the eight region is the Nameless region (Anami Lok). It is claimed that the RS masters only take their disciples to the fifth region of imperishability (read the books). However, these distinctions are almost arbitrary in that there are subtleties that may or may not be noteworthy, depending on the teaching. RS masters break the regions up according to their own method. It doesn’t necessarily appeal to everyone. However, I tried to use a physical analog (the potential field analogy) to “describe” this “level” beyond knowing which I mean to imply is the eighth region (Anami Lok) which cannot be explained with any abstraction of knowing and unknowing – hence, I adopted the term “beyond knowing” without concern. This then is what I mean by the middle of the sentence “one is best to look at it as a state “beyond knowing”.” The dogmatic condition is to interpret the expression “don’t question” as a statement forbidding (or preventing) the inquiry as a dictum (or command) that has the force of manmade laws (i.e. contrived). So, I am proposing that we look upon this as an unquestioning condition “beyond knowing” (or unknowable) and which is not forbidden in the sense of the artificially abstracted knowledge identified in the literal words “don’t question”.
In this “condition” of “beyond knowing,” nothing has changed. The world is as it is but we are no longer looking from “inside the fishbowl,” so to speak, scattered in time and space, reacting to the world as if it is somewhere and some-when else (disconnecting us from here and now). In this condition of being through which we become transparent to the Nameless One, we are fully sympathetic and responsible for our physical and mental actions. I see this as being mindful according to the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh. I’m sure he didn’t invent the term. I think he uses an invented term we “inter-are” but again, I do not know that this is exactly what he means. In any case, this is what I mean by the last sentence of the statement. A fully responsible person does what is mindful, regardless of the act. By saying “we just do,” I mean that every action we do, we are and are fully self aware of the action that is done within the capability of the being that is acting.
[J] I wish I could explain it more simply but I would have a difficult time doing this.
[J] I do not agree with your other comments but I’ll leave them unaddressed.
[J] Regards,

Dear Jen,
You are doing great.We all love you.
Are you an All Black fan?.
All the best
Obed

I’m not frustrated Brian, feeling like I have said all I have wished to say now, so no probs at all.
Cheers

Jen, I wish you’d be more honest. You say “I’m not frustrated.” Yet this is what you said in another comment recently:
———————
“Brian,
You must realize that on this blog there are people with very definite views and unfortunately some are totally against Sant Mat and they will attack anyone who does not agree with their views. So, because I basically do not like to argue but at the same time like the freedom to be able to express my own views and do enjoy an objective debate, perhaps I feel quite threatened by others here who I have observed to be very cutting, harsh, aggressive, downright rude and nasty and so I avoid talking directly to such people if I can.
That’s why I have changed back and forth because at times I really feel I shouldn’t be here on this blog and then at other times I think it is good for me because I need to become stronger and have more faith in myself and my own particular perceptions which I have built up over many, many years of being on a path of self discovery. At times it is a bit overwhelming and I don’t particularly like feeling that I am under attack from certain quarters.
I tend to see things differently from others and I feel it might actually be important for others to see things from another perspective, but then it is necessary for all parties to be coming from a more open minded perspective, that is what a debate is all about. The very skeptical, atheistic, scientific kind of mind can be extremely arrogant in its opinions and not open at all to any kind of metaphysical phenomena, so I feel I am doing battle here entirely on my own, except for a few people who are usually neither satsangis nor ex-satsangis, so have a more objective and open understanding.”
———————–
Your feeling that you are “doing battle” perhaps explains your dissatisfaction with this blog. If you are defending a belief system, naturally you are going to feel like you’re being attacked when others question your beliefs.
Like I’ve been saying, I think your expectations of a “churchless” blog are a bit unreasonable. Also, my sense is that you are trying to come across in a certain way that doesn’t match with what you are genuinely feeling or experiencing.
If you’re frustrated, that’s fine. It’s just confusing when you say you’re doing battle with the faithless science-loving infidels one day, then the next, you’ve got no problems at all. Honesty is better than appearing “spiritual,” Jen. That’s my main piece of advice for you, which I understand may not be welcome.

Brian, I don’t mind your advice at all. I just don’t think I have ever mentioned feeling frustrated so thats what I am saying, not “frustrated”. Having a bit of a battle sometimes, in other words feeling like coming up against a brick wall, wondering why I am bothering, but hey its no big deal, this is my first ever attempt at blogging so I’m new to this game. I also get annoyed at times but I realize I am probably just as annoying!

Hi Obed,
No not really into footy, but hey thanks for the support 🙂
Cheers Mate

Jayme,
Thanks again for your reply,
You stated,
“Evidently the post was more confusing that I intended.”
—Your statement wasn’t confusing, and I don’t think you intended any type of confusion.
—However, you have some unintended need to gab and gab. It’s a gift for some people. You are not a bad person, you are OK.
—A simple, “I don’t know” was the answer. Instead, you in an unconfusing manner, respond with the gift of endless gabbing.
—Any supposed spiritual issue; you have a natural (within yourself) need to attach your self contained gab. Someone, a supposed beginning initiate, could be misguided into thinking there is a Scientific Method attached to SantMat or the Soul.
” I do not agree with your other comments but I’ll leave them unaddressed.”
—Most “gabbers” don’t want to address the “gabbing” issue. Their role in any group is probably founded on this gift of gabbing. This gabbing foundation is their reason for being. Really, one that is such is not bad. Hopefully, you can understand the potential harm to others, not to yourself. Think, a little, about the other supposedly gullible satsangi, that you come in contact with.
Best wishes to you,
Roger

Jen,
You are OK. Don’t think you are confused or frustrated. Keep writing comments as you choose. I would like another comment from you, regarding the “science” of the soul. We might agree that this “science” doesn’t encorporate the Scientific Method.
This is ok. However, could you, based on your understanding, discuss any type of prosess or method, this “science” follows?
If there is no method or process, then ok again. Hopefully, you have some explanation of how this “science” works or functions.
Thanks again,
Roger

Roger,
I disagree.

I have gone through the major part of the blog I think my mind is too small and weak to imagine something some power which can’t be imagined. There is no Proof of God, but my friends if imperfection exists so exists the perfection…and that is the sea of LOVE. We are droplets of that sea who are imperfect. I am not anxious about questions neither I am interested in secrets but my interest is Love whose absence every one feels in his or her life….when you fall in Love then questions fade away….GOD is Love and thats what Baba Ji wanted to say…He said to use your intellect your intellect should be strong enough to know the absence of Divine Love your unsatisfaction and imperfection …once you fall in Love questions become less important to you …and you rather flow in Love of God…and Love’s starting step is faith if you donot have faith in God then its not Love,,,as one of my friends asked what is the surety God exists that perfect world exists….if you are asking surety then my dear friend leave the hopes of surety because Love is not a deal…first be an intellect and try to reach that level that you feel absence of God…you will see all the truths….

Prtateek,
It doesn’t really matter to me what your “Baba Ji wanted to say’.
Also, you may feel an “absence of Divine Love” and a sense of “unsatisfaction” and thatr you are “imperfect”, but I do not. So you shouldn’t assume that others feel the same way, or lack that you do.
You said: “starting step is faith if you do not have faith in God then its not Love”
— I don’t agree with you. I need no such “faith”, nor do I need to love some God. And if God does exist and God is love, then that love is within everyone, and faith is irrelevant.
“Love is not a deal”
— No one said that it is.

Brother Chin!
I hear you and I believe that you are on the right path to question. Maharaj Ji used to quote Lord Buddha and say “Do no believe even my words, but see for yourself because seeing is believing”.
I believe that you are on the right path – you ask questions because you CARE. because you want to KNOW, and understand the true meaning. These are all very noble aspirations. There is nothing wrong in what you say. Truth and right understanding will come when you think and ponder on these questions only.
I believe that you need to develop your own tests to provide you faith. Meditate. Sit quietly and pray that your questions get answered.
If your faith is shaken and you cannot pray to a God, then don’t! But don’t give up being honest!
Meditate in solitude, and the answer will emerge from within.