Good questions from a Sant Mat truth seeker

Shin, you ask some great questions. At first I was tempted to try to answer them. Or at least address them — because I don’t think anybody, certainly not me, understands the nature of God or ultimate reality. But I’m not going to.
Because what’s most important, in my opinion (and that’s all I’m doing here, expressing my opinion) is the fact that you’re questioning some basic Sant Mat beliefs. Congratulations. It looks like you’ve joined the club of RSSB, and other religious, doubters.
Based on my own doubting history, I suspect that you already know where you stand. You’re just not sure whether this is the place you want to be — even though it’s where you honestly are.
Since you love your still-believing family and friends, but they don’t love your questioning, you probably feel torn between following your own path to truth, and preserving good relationships with those who are more attached to RSSB than you are.
All I can say is, from my experience, that people who really care about you won’t mind (much) if you follow your heart…honestly, sincerely, truthfully. I haven’t lost any RSSB friends since I became “churchless.” What binds us is something deeper than dogma.
So what does it matter if you have questions about the Sant Mat philosophy? With absolute certainty, I can assure you than virtually every initiate has the same sorts of questions, doubts, misgivings, uncertainties. You’re just more open than most people, more willing to admit “I don’t know.”
Here’s my own question to you: About some things, you do know, don’t you? It’s clear that you want to try some different approaches to meditation and God-realization.
It seems that what is holding you back isn’t the knowing you want to do this, but a lack of confidence or trust in yourself.
I used to feel the same way. I’d been told for so long, “don’t trust your mind; it can lead you astray; you must have faith in the guru and not think so much.” But then I’d think (couldn’t help myself), “After thirty years of meditation and obedience, this is where I feel I need to go now; why shouldn’t I trust moving in that direction?”
You asked if people have found something better than RSSB and Sant Mat. Yes, I have. But if I tried to convince you that my “thing” is what you also should do, that would be pointless.
Truth is drawing you in a certain direction. I hope you’ll trust yourself enough to move in that way. It won’t be my way, or anybody else’s way, but YOUR way.
The way I see it, this may be the only life we have to live. Maybe we continue on after death; there’s no convincing evidence of this, though. So whose life are we going to live during the time we have here on Earth?
Our own, or someone else’s? Our own, or that of our family and friends? Our own, or a guru’s?
When we know, really KNOW, what we feel we must do, and that draws us powerfully, we should pay attention to that knowing. It often (or usually) doesn’t speak in words. But in that unspoken sensation of “Yes!” is the answer to our questions.

Dear Shin,
You say
“I seek the truth and will continue my efforts until I either find it or give up due to sheer exhaustion.”
When you reach that state of hopelessness.The adventure of seeking
comes naturally to an end.At that point something Real may happen.
That Real will be only for you and will be unique to you.
It may take all your life but when it comes it will feel natural
and right and come from what you Really are.
Regards
Obed

obed:”At that point something Real may happen.”
Or nothing will happen, if you are exhausted, you feel exhausted because after all who or what dictates that something Real(why the capital anyway?, because that socalled Real could be God?) may happen? Nonsense.

Dear JJQ,
Thank you for the opportunity to reply to you and to go a little deeper into what I meant.
The message that I wrote comes from my own personal experience of what happened to me when my belief and faith in RSSB was completely,irreversibly
destroyed by an incident that happened five years ago.The cruelty and indifference that was displayed by the hierarchy of RSSB I cannot forget
even though in myself I have forgiven them.
I don’t think I need to go into the horrors the human psyche endures when
confronted by its complete demolition of its belief and faith suffice to say I was only one step away from taking my own life.
I was out walking my dog when inexplicably and spontaneously I was filled with a feeling of great love and the idea arose in my mind that I still had
something that remained untouched by what had happened and that was I still existed.
That thought saved me and has led me in the direction which I now go.
When I write Real with a capital it is a way of giving gratitude and love to that indefinable unknown that is me.
Dear JJQ I dont mind at all that this may also be nonsense to you.I am only
to grateful to be able to be here to reply to you.
If I had to meet you I would give you a big smile shake your hand and
say lets be friends.Words after all are just scribbles that tell stories.I like stories but I dont believe in them.
With kindest wishes
Obed

Shin,
The best thing to do is get it in your head that there is no God.
You have nothing to fear by doing so, no karma, no destiny nothing.
Let yourself go and accept that there is no karma and no destiny.
This will desolve the myth and fancy and dogma that you stuck in and allow you to see a far grander world and universe.
Then rebuild the whole picture again and you will find, and discover for the first time, the transcendent path with clear will/vision.
This is a good exersice. Then if you want, you can go back to RS.
Luie

Good questions, good answers!
I have put it on RSS forum.
Hope nobody mind.
Sita

My suggestion is to keep asking questions and trust that even the process of asking questions is all part of this path. In my opinion Life is the Path…all of Life…not just the part that involved you getting initiation into a particular group with particular practices and a particular mantra.
The life that ‘I’ am experiencing is the Path and so are all these questions. What happened upon making the choice to walk away from ‘Sant Mat’, in particular, was and is a slow process of trusting the whole process of living and learning and being and becoming.
All the best,
Gloria

Shin,
These “anomalies” are the answers to your questions. If these anomalies don’t make sense, does RSSB make sense?
Listen to your intuition. If you feel something is “fishy” there is probably truth in that feeling.
When you are exhausted by your search for truth and have run out of ideas and are adrift like a boat with no sail or oars, then progress is being made. For it does not lie in the realm of ideas and things.
Find out, when your mind is blank and finds nowhere to turn, and no concepts to cling to, what is aware of that conceptual blankness?
What is the original source of this “me” that is looking?

Obed, Hope you are doing good and enjoying the peace with in. Would you be willing to share the incident that happened with you that destroyed your faith in RSSB ?

Dear sapient,
I dont mind.The point though is what was bad in my
eyes maybe just nothing to somebody else.
The story started when my dear friend’s wife developed ovarian cancer.During the six year ordeal
until she died they as loving satsangis frequently
wrote to the present master for help and guidance.
They never ever recieved an answer.Towards the end when all hope had been abandoned they went on a final trip to Dera.They never got to talk to the
present master and returned in a state of complete hopelesness.
A few months after the wife died in terrible pain and agony.My friend ,who is a medical professional monitered her pulse to her end.She never lost consciousness until she took her last breath.He actually felt her pulse go.At no time did any radiant form appear to her.She died a lonely sad death.
Shortly after that a medium(who is a satsangi) contacted him and told him that his wife was in a
very sad state and had not found her way.
My friend sent an urgent letter to Dera.No response was forthcoming.
What really settled it for me was when he contacted the rep in our country and was told all her suffering was due to her not meditating enough.
That was it.I broke completely with these people and jumped into the abyss that opened up beneath my feet.
My friend despite close family,friends lives a
solitary sad life.My wife and I frequently visit and I have tried to help but he is closed completely to anything.He still considers himself
a satsangi but he really doesnt believe anymore and
is frightened to let go.
He is just marking time until he rejoins his beloved wife.
Obed

I always try to welcome pain, it makes to go away.
I think i read that in mirdad, only book sold at rs i still like.
cosmic consiousness is the next evolution and it’s been happening to people for a long time.
None of the RS guru’s,none on any of the offshoots either, have ever experienced it.
Swami Ji is probably the only one who may have had a little of it, or a lot but, not much is known.
I don’t know if there’s a god thing. I hate to use the word because it’s so loaded. The evolution of the Void, well, everyone who experiences CC say they think there is. So it’s part of the experience. You don’t even have to be in mediation for it to happen either.
Everything that is required is provided by nature in the body and no guru is necessary other than a reference point.

Hi Cyfer,
Nicely said.I have always liked Mirdad.I have a
suspicion that it was removed from the rs list.
Probably far to heretical.
Kind regards
Obed

Dear Brian and others,
Thank you for replying and wish your truth takes you to God. Though i do feel God implies a higher being and as we are part of this higher being then we are already ‘God’. I feel more comfortable in using the ‘Creator’ as the appropriate terminology.
Realising the Creator Or Knowing Thyself is the real Aim and i feel when we Understand and Experience the Oneness of everything, then and only then will we realise our self’s as not only the creator but the manufacturer of everything we see & feel, in and round us. Is it so bold to say we are in fact the Creator {shattered into billions of microscopic parts, separated within differing planes, division & sub divisions} experiencing this human existence as a ‘Game’!
{I asked Babji this question at Haynes and he confirmed to all that this is a Game. Again implying the imperfection of creation as the ‘Artist’ himself was bored!}. Why would you create a game…….to amuse yourself as you are truly not satisfied therefore imperfect!
I hope to find that truth and i concur with feelings of many who have replied, that the search in it self may open up a Truth.
I think when i referred to Exhaustion, the implication was one of merely giving up! But i am experimenting on a inner search with added determination. A real urge to communicate with a/the ‘Creator’, not an ‘in between’, guru or teacher. Just trying to simply discover, what i have always felt, we are the Creator…..everyone of us!
We are running around like worker ants, knowing what needs to be done, without pausing and asking the questions why. Many religions and faiths are based on this and like many have realised the fraudulent nature of it.
I would recommend the following link:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
If you watch the first movie release date 25/06/07. It made me question everything.
take care,
Shin

Dear Shin,
Congrats for being initiated by the Great Master. RSSB Gurus are the only gurus who guarantee you freedom from life and birth in four lifetimes, so you needn’t worry, all you should have is faith in your master, BUT since you been through the cycle of 8.4 million births and this is your first life that you have been initiated by a True Master you have full right to enjoy at least this life, so enjoy this life to your fullest and be sure that the master or his children or grandchildren (the future masters) are definitely going to free you from the cycle of birth and death, and if your faith is shaky or you have some doubts then you should not follow these thugs.
You have both the options, the choice is yours.
Best Wishes,

Dear Obed,
The Book of Mirdad is on sale at RSSB bookstores only where they have in stock, but it is no more ordered or printed.
Regards

Obed,
I am sorry to hear about your experience, especially the response of the representative. This is an unkind, even inhumane thing to say to a grieving person.
I often hear of people feeling neglected by not receiving handwritten letters from Baba Ji. I am confused by this, because I can relate to the desire to have one-on-one contact with one’s teacher, but it may simply be that he doesn’t have enough time to respond to all letters? There are a couple million disciples after all, and I know how long it takes for me to write one handwritten letter. I am not making excuses for anyone, but simply throwing it out there that receiving letters seems to be an expectation held by many and one that has caused a lot of disappointment.

Dear Shin,
When you put away the santmat doctrine,you have the possibilty,to go to satsangs at times if you feel like, because it is not that black or white so to say, it can be nice, to just be in a meditational atmosphere.
Not all satsangi’s are that stuck in the dogma’s and idea’s as they maybe seem to be.
I feel free but can enjoy forinstance the love and dedication for meditation
and still enjoy brother/sisterhood,from people who also are seekers and workers on ”their”paths.
Some thoughts and experiences,
Sita.
ps
everyone does it in their own way and time is telling also..

Dear Adam,Juan and Shin,
Adam:thanks for the kind words.I can feel you are a sensitive person.
Juan:you realise you are in enemy territory.Walk with caution.
Shin:just keep going until the going stops being the going.
Love to all
Obed

Hey Juan,
You are being mislead. I know of ‘gurus’ who guarantee freedom from the cycle of birth and death in only two (2) lifetimes and say that Sach Khand is merely an intermediate stage and its agents, the Sant Mat gurus, exist to deceive unfortunate souls that Sach Khand is the ultimate stage.
These highly advanced guides are known as Ixtanuatl and only appear once every 493 years at the 1000 meter elevation on the mountain Ambato in Ecuador. Specially attuned souls known as ‘ichtimatis’ are drawn to these emisaries of the region Wa-h-umu who emit a psychic scent known as Xochita which penetrates the pineal gland causing it to grow to about twice normal size regardless of how far away the ichtimati lives. This enables the ichtimati to receive supra-physical instuctions from the Ixtanuatl who calls the souls to Ambato for the esoteric practice called ‘mozoque’ which includes a strict diet of llama milk clabber and remaining motionless in a position known as ‘atantata’ where the ichtimati holds his/her feet together in front of his/her nose with only the little toes touching. This produces an ecstatic state known as umu-umu-h-uchu which reveals all truths of the universe.
Nothing more need be said as all is in the hands of the Ixtanuatl. If you are called, you will go. If not, you won’t.
All praises to Wah-h-umu.

That’s hilarious Tucson; I wish you or somebody else will write a satire of RS and title it “Whatta Snobby Society!”

“Shin” said (in Brian’s article):
“I am writing this more in hope than anything else….hope of finding the TRUTH.”
— If you truly desire to move toward truth, then stop searching for it in dogma and belief. You are still quite enmeshed in the RS belief system, and that is obvious in the things that you have said. If you desire to find more truth, then you must be ruthless in letting go of religious dogma and savior/guru-cultism. You are still flirting with RS. Until you drop that entirely, you will not progress toward truth.
“I have been initiated {RSSB – Current Master – Gurinder Singh} for over ten years.”
— Then its high-time for you to try a different approach.
“I do have one other in the family who […] closes his mind […], stating that there is nothing better out there!”
— As long as you continue to listen to other people who are brainwashed and entrenched in guru-cultism and religious dogma, then you too will remain lost and confused.
“In the beginning there was nothing but God, therefore why was the world created in the first place”
— You are assuming that there is “God” and that the world was “created”. This is part of your problem. You must abandon all these notions and ideas and beliefs, if you wish to find truth.
“At the beginning of time we are told that some souls did not want to leave Sach Khand”
— This is the same thing as the previous comment.
“the question is if Sach Khand is such a perfect place why did they want to leave?”
— This is also the same thing. “Sach Khand” and “souls” leaving are merely ideas that you have bought into.
“the other question is that those who did not want to go had to leave against their will”
— Again, this is anbother concept that you subscribe to, a useless concept that has no bearing or connection to your real life.
“At the beginning of time we were perfect ie. we had no karmas”
— Again, this is merely an abstract belief that has no connection to reality. And you are caught and imprisoned by it. Let go of all of this kind of metaphysical nonsense.
“how did we get the first karma if we were perfect […] God put this temptation here in the first place”
— “God”, “karma”, “temptation”, ” perfect”…. all these notions are all useless assumptions and obscurations.
“how then can we be blamed for our karmas?”
— same as above.
“If God knows everything, which he must do if he is all-knowing, then he knows”
— “God” is in you mind… and “all-knowing” is nothing more than impressive, but meaningless jargon.
“how then can we be blamed for our karmas?”
— Who is “we”… and what “karmas”?
“Why was the world designed with bad karmas built into it”
— The world is not what you presume it to be. And karma is not what you seem to think. Karma simply means action. Thats all. You need to drop all of your many presumptions if you really wish to move towards truth.
“we cannot breathe or eat without committing bad karmas. […] how then can we be blamed for our karmas?”
— Karma is not what you believe it to be. And there is no such “blame”. That is another bit of nonsense, another fear engendering lie.
“If God loves us and can take us back in a second, why doesn’t He”
— There is no “God” apart from anyone or anything. And there is no “back” to “take us” to. Free yourself from this ignorant notion.
“It is convenient to say “we cannot comprehend or understand the answers […]you cannot disclose to anyone your findings”
— That is just standard cultic manipulation rhetoric.
“Why was it decided that we should not know our previous karmas”
— There is no such “decided”. There is no decision, period. Karma simply means ‘action’.
“this is very unfair as we cannot prevent making similar mistakes”
— You are just whining, and only because you are still a sucker for the RS belief system. You can be done with all of that nonsense in a moment – if you really want to find truth. But you can’t keep flirting with and believing in the dogma in RS mysticism and expect to progress toward truth
“If EVERYTHING is destined (each breath and hair on your body is pre-destined)”
— “destined”is just another assumption, another blind belief.
“we are told that Baba Ji […] will never give us more hardship than we can take […]as Baba Ji controls our karmas”
— This is a huge LIE. This guy you call “Baba Ji” controls absolutely no one and nothing. He is just another ordinary human being who has no such spiritual power whatsoever to effect any such thing. This is total bullshit. If you really desire truth, you MUST abandon this type of foolish nonsense, this deceptive lie, this guru-cult illusion.
“How can you be guilty of eating meat if you accidentally eat it even though from […] it appeared it was pure vegetarian?”
— There is no “gulity”. Eating meat is simply a personal preference, an individual choice. There is no fault or guilt. This belief is another manipulative lie of religious propaganda.
“Baba Ji said poison is poison – you will feel the effects even if you did not know it was there”
— This so-called “Baba Ji” is no authority on anything. To say that eating meat is eating “poison” is incredibly ignorant and it is also quite deceptive. You must stop buying into this myth. T put it bluntly, this “Baba Ji” is full of shit. He has his opinion, but his opinion is not rational or legitimate. You should not listen to such people. It is misleading and manipulating you, and it is keeping you trapped in lies and false guru-cult dogma.
“If meditation is the most important seva, why is it generally accepted that sevadars [volunteers] will sacrifice their meditation for seva”
— Why? Because they are brainwashed cult goons. Neither meditation nor seva is superior. This is just yet another example of cultic manipulation of behavior and cult brainwashing. Meditation is not essential, nor is seva.
“How many times are we told we must do our meditation, living in this world and the struggles they present BUT the ‘Special Disciples’ […] seem to have had the opportunity to go into caves or the forest and do years of meditation.”
— If you buy into that, then you will be controlled by it. You can do whatever you want in your life, You can live a worldly life, or you can go to a cave. Its up to you. Don’t listen to manipulative RS dogma which is all intended to keep you remaining a slave to the cult organization. My advice: Run away from the RSSB, and don’t let their dogma fool you and keep you from living and thinking freely.
“As most companies make money by corrupt means or unethically eg. employing slave labour, then this would mean avoiding working and buying goods & services from them”
— Don’t you know and relaize that RSSB is itself a company that employs slave labour? And as long as you buy into and affilitate with RSSB, you will be supporting that. Have some self-respect, and some respect for humanity… and don’t support the despicable and deceptive feudal system of RSSB.
“Why is Parshad blessed by Baba Ji if it has no spiritual significance but is only served as a reminder of God when you eat it – as nothing but meditation is supposed to burn away karmas – this appears to be a ritual?”
— Because it IS a ritual… and it is designed to keep the satsangi followers believing in the false notion that the master is special and holy and divine. It is an absolute lie, and the ritual is a deceptive and illusory myth.
“Why is Dristi [when the guru looks at disciples] by Baba Ji significant before satsang if there is nothing spiritual about it – as nothing but meditation is supposed to burn away karmas – this appears to be a ritual also?”
— Because RS is full of hypocrisy and contradiction.
“In addition to this, would be the succession and the checkered history and the obvious family links. Through my own investigation you could probably add ‘Business’ to this list, i.e. property development etc.”
— The RSSB is a long-time family business that has used and deceived and abused tens of thousands of naive and gullible seekers.
“I feel utterly confused and truly yearn for the truth.”
— Then just simply STOP buying into any and all of the cult dogma of RS.
“I […] cannot believe how the ‘faith’ has become institutionalised verging on a corporate scale.”
— The RSSB cult is a corrupt business organization that sells pseudo-mysticism as a front.
“The questions I would like to put to you and your readers are: have you found anything BETTER?”
— Yes definitely. And for you.. even just your own life is better than being a slave and a sucker to that RS cult and its oppressive belief system.
“If it is just a case of “freeing your mind” will this actually help in realising the truth?”
— And what do you suppose “the truth” is? Until you are free of the spell of guru-cultism and religion, then you will not know what “freeing your mind” really is. You SAY that you yearn for the truth. But then… why do you settle for falsehood and religious dogma? You are confused and have inner contradictions. You will never find the truth that you seek as long as you continue to flirt with RS or any other guru-cult or dogma. So at this point, it appears that you are not truly serious in your desire for truth. You are just playing a game with belief. You want your cake (RS), but yet you want to eat the cake of truth too. But you can’t have it both ways. Truth is like a very jealous God. Remember that. If you really want the truth, then you MUST abandon ALL else. Otherwise you will remain confused and mislead.
“In recent weeks I have tried to meditate without using the names but feel at odds. What can I use, what can I say…..I have tried ‘one with the creator’ / know thyself / who am I / I seek the truth etc etc. […] Can any of this work ?”
— Why do you assume that you must have or use some mantra, some words or ideas to repeat? That is stupid. You can simply meditate without such any such obscuring encumberaces. Simple meditation. But even meditation is not necessary. So you just need to free yourself from all such assumed artificial impositions.
“Additionally is there anyone out there who after investigation feels Sant Mat and RSSB is in fact the truth.”
— You just don’t understand…. yet. You are looking for truth in all the wrong places. You are looking for truth where it has never been and never will be. You are looking for truth in doctrines and dogma and institutions. You must abandon searching for truth where it is not. Truth is not far away – truth is very near – but you will never find it in gurus, or paths, or cults, or religions, or philosophies. Truth appears as a paradox and a mystery. As long as you continue to be a sucker – as long as you continue to think and hope that you will find truth in RS or any other dogma – you will remain confused. Stop thinking that there is any truth to be found thru Santmat, or masters, or meditations, or any other sort of strategy.
” Has anyone returned to the FOLD? The Masters always claim, disciples after becoming disillusioned with the faith eventually will return to the Fold.”
— That is religious propaganda designed to trick you and make you think that you are not free, that you are now possesed by the guru, forever attached to the guru. That is a outright deceiptful LIE, and you should literally run away from anyone who uses or believes such falsehood.
“Has this actually happened or are we now in the realms of the four lifetimes?”
— You are obviously still flirting with the propaganda of RS dogma. You are still caught in its web of illusion.
“I seek the truth and will continue my efforts until I either find it or give up due to sheer exhaustion.”
— I must tell you that I don’t believe you. You say that, but you don’t really mean that. You are looking for people to present arguments to you. But if you really had intended and desired and sought truth above all else, then you would have already abandoned all that RS nonsense that you are still very enmeshed in. Until you drop all of that, then your supposed search for thruth is only superficial talk. It doesn’t take but a moment to break free… but you have to really want to be free. You can’t have the truth as long as you continue to follow RS or any other cult or dogma.
===========================================
Shin also wrote (in Shin’s own reponse comments):
“Thank you for replying and wish your truth takes you to God. Though i do feel God implies a higher being and as we are part of this higher being then we are already ‘God’.”
— These are just words Shin. God (or “higher being”) is just a word, and an idea that you entertain, that you project as being somehow meaningful. You are caught in this spiritual/religious mindset. Its is only in your mind. Let go of all of those ideas.
“I feel more comfortable in using the ‘Creator’ as the appropriate terminology.”
— This is that same as I described above. Let go of this nonsense. It does not serve your search for trtuh. It obscures and obstructs clarity.
“Realising the Creator Or Knowing Thyself is the real Aim and i feel when we Understand and Experience the Oneness of everything, then and only then will we realise our self’s as not only the creator but the manufacturer of everything we see & feel, in and round us.”
— This is just a jumble of words and ideas that have nothing to do with truth.
“Is it so bold to say we are in fact the Creator {shattered into billions of microscopic parts, separated within differing planes, division & sub divisions} experiencing this human existence”
— Again, this is just a jumble of words and ideas that has nothing to do with truth.
“I asked Babji this question at Haynes and he confirmed to all that this is a Game.”
— This “Baba Ji” has no answers. He knows no more than you do. And HE is the one who is playing the “Game”. You will not ever find truth as long as you continue to seek it from such pretrenders. You must abandon your flirtation with all of this RS nonsense.
“Why would you create a game…….to amuse yourself as you are truly not satisfied therefore imperfect!”
— This subject matter ( ie: the “Lila” of prakriti & purusha) is far deeper philosophically than you realize. You are obviously not yet ready to delve into the philosophical implications and esoteric domain of this matter. At this point, you should simply free yourself from the mystic guru-cultism in which you are entrapped and entrenched.
“I hope to find that truth and i concur with feelings of many who have replied, that the search in it self may open up a Truth.”
— You must abandon your desire to have truth “concur” with you. To move towards truth, you must surrender your trip and embrace mystery. As long as you continue to play your game of spirituality and mysticism and guru-cultism, you will never find truth.
“I think when i referred to Exhaustion, the implication was one of merely giving up!”
— Thats what you need to do – Give it up. Give it ALL up.
“But i am experimenting on a inner search with added determination. A real urge to communicate with a/the ‘Creator’, not an ‘in between’, guru or teacher.”
— That is a kind of duality. You “inner search” is itself the stumbling block.
” Just trying to simply discover, what i have always felt, we are the Creator…..everyone of us!”
— There is no such “Creator”. This is just a mistaken idea.
“I would recommend the following link: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ ”
— The Zeitgeist video is exteremely misleading. It is full of socialist agenda propaganda and new-age mind-control. It is not what it appears to be on the surface. You should wake-up from that sort of crap.

Hi Shin,
Your main question: “have you found anything BETTER?”
Somehow, I don’t sense a true seeker here. Your questions are the same old regurgitated questions the ‘cult of the ex-satsangis’ use.
I have a few suggestions, if I may: Why not try the mainstream way of life, have fun, eat whatever you like, drink alcohol, take drugs, screw around … and then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”
Or perhaps try the other religions, go to different churches, listen to the sermons. Or maybe, join some of the new age type cults; there are stacks of them around. And then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”
Or perhaps you could try being an ascetic, like the Buddha, when realizing that all humans eventually become old, ill and diseased and then die, threw off the worldly attachments and through much suffering and sincere effort found enlightenment. Or maybe try 17 years of constant meditation in a back room (sound like anyone you have heard of?). Probably these options are far too difficult but you could try? And then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”
Then maybe, you might think, having been born into a satsangi household, you could try being the good satsangi type. Do your seva, attend the weekly sermons (oops, I mean satsangs), also you may want to climb up the ladder of the hierarchy. And then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”
Or, what about thinking to yourself … “I guess no-one else is going to be able to answer my questions or do the hard work for me, I could sincerely try putting in my own effort to find out who I really am”. And then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”

Hi Shin, I was interested to read how you used the word ‘Creator’ in the comment section. We are in fact Stardust- what’s left over from a star manufacturing itself.
I was at a lecture last week given by the American Astro-physicist Debra Shepherd from the National Radio Astronomy Observatory. She is in South Africa to promote the Square Kilometer ARAY also known as Meerkat. This field of massive Radio telescopes stands a good chance of being installed in the South African Karoo. Dr. Shepherd confirmed our origin with spectacular photographs.
http://www.ska.ac.za
Some people may wish to believe that there is a Creator who manufactures humans in this way. I prefer to take things at face value- we are caused by what is scientifically shown. It is grand enough. Creators and the likes- Science hasn’t come across a Creator, infact no-one can be proved to have done so.
As far as Oneness is concerned, read Brian’s previous post where abstraction is discussed.
Your questions are excellent incidentally. Give them to your family to answer. They will not have the anwers of course, but look out for this predictable one- “reason is the enemy of faith, sometimes you just have to have faith”. Here you will know that they are all swimming in the warm waters of their comfort zone.

HI Zenjen,
“I have a few suggestions, if I may: Why not try the mainstream way of life, have fun, eat whatever you like, drink alcohol, take drugs, screw around … and then ask yourself “Well now, is there anything better than this?”
Hey, when you put it like this, mainstream life sounds pretty good 🙂
(though I’ve been a vegetarian far too long to start eating meat now)

Hi Adam,
Thanks for the chuckle … I was just being a bit outrageous and I wouldn’t really recommend that kind of life. I like being a veggie and if the drugs and alcohol didn’t kill me the guilt probably would!

Dear Catherine,
I have approached the family with all these questions, though not all at once but periodically. As you can guess not one could give me a satisfactory answer and the majority telling me to do my Medi and find out for myself!!
Dear tAo,
Thank you….i may have needed that!
All those questions highlighted have been festering in my mind for some years and all i wanted to do was to share them with people who understood.
You must realise i would be virtually ‘torn to shreds’ and disowned if family and friends who are 99% satsangis found out about my misgivings!
I found this site and felt the ‘weight’ had started to come off and could once again begin to feel free to some extent.
tAo, i appreciate your direct approach verging on the blunt and i WILL try to LET GO but please understand it has been in my family for FOUR generations and i need the SUPPORT of everyone on here! I suppose it is like giving up smoking or drinking….just takes a wee bit longer…but boy do you feel good afterwards.
All,
I appreciate your insight and candour and hopefully in the very near future, be able to FREE myself, without turning back and questioning my decision.
Shin

I see nothing has changed.
The same questions are asked and the same people munch on them, regurgitating their doubts and debates.
Anything to keep them from the practice and progress that counts. The tough stuff. The sacrifice. The discomfort. The pain and itches and … well if you didnt persevere you’ll never get past the natural barriers.
The mind will say… question this, debate that, incite doubt and lets talk and talk and talk.
Because its easier than the other stuff.
the same brian, the same tucson, the same tao and crowd.
amazing how much time can pass, and just like a pathetic tv soapie, you can quickly catch up with the mindless storyline.
church of the churchless. more like a society of disgruntled athletes who never bothered to come to training, to sweat it out on the track – day in and day out.
now, flabby and pasty they sit on the sideline and flap their lips against the athletes and their efforts.
lets yak and yak they say. so much easier than the other stuff.

Unknown, I enjoy your comments in this sense: they show up so clearly closed-minded head-in-the-sand fundamentalist dogmatism. You could be a Muslim, Christian, or Jewish true believer. Instead, you’re a Sant Mat true believer. But you’re equally threatened by direct experience and facts, instead of blind reliance on holy books and holy gurus.
Many of us here have a huge amount of experience with meditation. We’re marvelously qualified to describe our experiences. For about thirty years I meditated almost exactly (perfection isn’t possible) as taught. For around half of that time, two and a half hours a day, as instructed. When I was working full time and had a child, more like an hour and a half.
So don’t preach at me about sacrifice and discomfort. You don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve sat for countless hours with pain, restlessness, tears, intense devotion to the guru.
I wrote three books in a spirit of seva. This entailed way more time and effort than almost anyone else in RSSB puts into volunteerism. It wasn’t a weekend here or there. For each book it was, literally, years of almost-daily writing seva, usually for four hours or so a day. Or more.
So yes, you ignoramus, I have “sweated it out on the track.” I have “come to training.”
For at least twenty years I served as secretary for our local RSSB group (sangat). I organized meetings, gave talks, got to the meeting place early and set up chairs. So don’t blab to me about “athletes and their efforts.” You have no clue about what I and others put into following the Sant Mat path.
No clue.

and yet you continue to bang your tin drum to your new audience. do you want a medal for your failures? do you want your ego stroked by your pseudo cyber sangat? its easier isnt it?
you gave up. you threw in the towel and exchanged the drivers seat for the back seat.

Adam & Zenjen,
Now don’t be shy y’all. Don’t be afraid to break your taboos. You might just like the taste of freedom that you cannot know until you overcome those self-imposed
limitations that you adhere to. Eating meat, taking a little alcohol or drugs, and indulging in sex instead of boring old meditation… is damn good medicine. You won’t ever realize that until you let go and give yourself the freedom to LIVE. I hear in your humorous responses a slight glimmer of wishful thinking, but your knee-jerk taboos and fixations squash it before you go further. You have to just trust that all will be well (you won’t burn in karmic hell) and just go ahead and venture into that unknown, which as soon as you do, will no longer seem like such a big deal, big obstacle. Then you will laugh and feel the freedom that you knew as a child. Presently, you are trapped and bound by self-imposed limiting ideas and taboos and all manner of supposed reasons that you have in your head or that you acquired from others.
Just let go. Live a little. A little meat, booze, and drugs will not kill you or prevent your enlightement. In fact, it will probably be very enightening for you. But remaining stuck in bunch of suffocating self-imposed limitations WILL eventually kill you – or bore you to death.
Just take it from me… a guy who has most certainly done more drinking, and more sex drugs and rock & roll, than anyone you have ever known or will ever know. And yet I am probably far more healthy – more physically and mentally fit – and stronger and more alive and happy and wise, than all of the repressed sexually inhibited vegetarian spiritual meditators and uptight sadsangis put together.
So to to get your Churchless asses moving, just be sure to repeat this mystic mantra before and after meditating: SEX, DRUGS, and ROCK & ROLL!!! And be sure to stop for a meal at Burger King, either before or after Satsang.

there. my observations were spot on. tao responded right on cue. the tattooed yobbos in their pews, cheering on their minister of no direction.

Shin,
Who cares what your family says? Who cares what answers they offer? What do they know anyway? They have no broad perspective. Why do you worry about them? Live your own life, and let them live theirs. If they bother you, tell them to mind their own business.
As for all those questions that have been festering in your mind, it is good for you to share them. I am not criticising your questions. I am trying to get you to think for yopurself, rather than remain stuck in dogma.
You said that you “would be virtually ‘torn to shreds’ and disowned if family and friends […] found out about my misgivings”
— You should not live this way. You must be bold and stand up for yourself and your own views and path in life. Just tell them to mind their own business. Don’t be afraid of them, or let them oppress you. As soon as they see that you have a mind of your own, they will leave you alone. You must become an adult. Spirituality is a personal choice. They have no right to impose Santmat upon you. But you must let them know that you are your own person and you will not be swayed by them. You need to take your power.
“I found this site and felt the ‘weight’ had started to come off and could once again begin to feel free to some extent.”
— That is very good. I am sure many here feel joy at hearing you say this. Continue your progress and growth in whatever direction you feel best.
“i appreciate your direct approach verging on the blunt and i WILL try to LET GO but please understand it has been in my family for FOUR generations and i need the SUPPORT of everyone on here!”
— You have my total support. I was blunt with you because I felt I needed to shock you a little – to make you really THINK for yourself.
“I suppose it is like giving up smoking or drinking….just takes a wee bit longer…but boy do you feel good afterwards.”
— Yes… as you begin to think for yourself and gain more clarity, you will feel stronger and happier and a sense of freedom. This will then spur you on. Don’t fear that you are losing anything. You cannot lose what is inherent in yourself. You are now on the path to discovering your own living path, your own spiritual life, your own reality. Whatever is real, you can never lose. You will only lose that which you do not need, and that which is inhibiting your growth. The guru and path is Life itself… your own unique life. You WILL find your way. Just trust in the mystery of your existence. If you meditate, just let it come naturally. Don’t try to impose anything artificial on your life. Trust in your own awareness, in your own being, in your own natural self-perfected state, in your own self-liberation.
Best of luck to you.

Tao says
“I am trying to get you to think for yopurself, rather than remain stuck in dogma.”
Tao is a narrow-minded hypocrite who battles to accept alternate opinions himself.
A simple search through this blog – for his tiring comments – will verify that.
Its amazing how these tin-drum men and ‘ministers’ love their own company and the company of ‘lost souls’ that they can ‘guide’.
pathetic

Unknown,
Why are you so angry? What are you afraid of? Have your cultic mind lost (blind) trust in the Guru that he will take care of his disciples and will save them from people in churchless? Why are you feeling so challenged when few people are talking about cultic approach of RSSB?
Why should you be different from a Islamic Jehadi who needs to throw bomb when somebody criticizes Islam 🙂

Unknown says:
“I see nothing has changed.”
— That only means that nothing has changed with you.
“The same questions are asked and the same people munch on them, regurgitating their doubts and debates.”
— Thats just what people do. Thats apparently what they need to do. So whats it to you? You think you are better than them? Well, you obviously are not.
“Anything to keep them from the practice and progress that counts. The tough stuff. The sacrifice. The discomfort. The pain and”
— Sounds like you are saying: “don’t question, don’t think, don’t discuss, don’t debate… just have faith and go do your spiritual practice, meditation, or whatever” If thats what you mean, then thats lame.
“well if you didnt persevere you’ll never get past the natural barriers.”
— “natural barriers” you say? Thats just an assumption in YOUR mind. And your sense of the meaning of perserverence is skewed. Compared to myself, you have little or no clue about REAL perserverence. You sound like just another advocate of blind faith. If you are not, then indicate otherwise.
“The mind will say… question this, debate that”
— Yes, it does sound like you are one of these folks who puts blind faith above reason and logic. But that is the way of the blind leading the blind. You can fall into that ditch if you want, but I will trust in my own innate intelligence and insight, which has proven to be far more reliable thooughout the whole of my life. I’ll place all my bets on my own innate wisdom and awareness and common sense… and in not in ignorant blind faith.
“Because its easier than the other stuff.”
— What is “easier”? Thinking and reasoning for oneself is not easy at all. It takes mental strength and guts and a clear mind. Its not for those who are disempowered blind followers.
“church of the churchless. more like a society of disgruntled athletes who never bothered to come to training, to sweat it out on the track – day in and day out.”
— You don’t know what the fuck you are babbling about. You have no clue about what other people here have done or have experienced or have achieved, or how much they have worked or struggled. You are just a shallow sack of shit who has no wisdom or insight or knowledge into anyone else.
“now, flabby and pasty they sit on the sideline and flap their lips against the athletes and their efforts.”
— Sorry “unknown” jackass, but I for one have ‘been there and done that’, and long long before you ever even took a single step. You have no idea who you are talking to, or what you are talking about. Thats why you are not say anything of any substance.
“lets yak and yak they say. so much easier than the other stuff.”
— You know nothing about “the other stuff”. And btw shithead, I HAVE walked the walk, and so I’ve earned the right to talk the talk – to “yak and yak” – so go stick it up your pathetic spiritually self-righteous fat ass, you juvenile troll.
You are just a dumb-ass and a joke… and yes I’m definitely laughing at you.

Unknown,
Why do you bother to read this blog if it is inhabited by “tin-drum-men” whose comments are so “pathetic” and “tiring”? If you are confident and secure in your path, why are you so defensive and offended by the commentary here that you feel you must lash out? Why do you care? Isn’t everything in the master’s hands? Leave it to him and attend to your simran and bhajan. Right?

Unknown says
“Tao is a narrow-minded hypocrite who battles to accept alternate opinions himself.”
— You know nothing about me. And you also know very little or nothing about my opinions. You are only reflecting your own narrow-mindedness and your own pathetic cult mentality which disrespects others who are free and who can think for themselves.
“Its amazing how these tin-drum men and ‘ministers’ love their own company and the company of ‘lost souls’ that they can ‘guide’.”
— Wrong again. I am not any “minister”, and I have no such interest in guiding anyone. You could not even pay me to do so. You are clearly merely grasping at straws, but unfortunately you are unsuccesful. And you have not offered or contributed anything remotely positive. That makes you a troll.
Its obvious that you are here as a troll, and you are a troll who is probably also part of some irrational cult like RS.
You need to get yourself your own real life.

Unknown,
You said,
disgruntled athletes who never bothered to come to training, to sweat it out on the track – day in and day out, this applies to me at least, all I was curios is who would be the next successor of RSSB.
Thanks

How interesting it is to hear all the diverse opinions expressed here. Also to feel free enough to be able to just be myself, say my stuff in my own way. Feels great, quite liberating.

A person who questions and then weighs up the answers is finding themselves and directing their path; they are not lost.
For Shin, it is not to her advantage to do this after being born into generations of RSSB initiates. It is far easier and more pleasant to stay in the fold.
Incidentally, Unknown you may consider yourself an athlete for doing two and a half hours of meditation a day, but maybe, you should have a look at the quality of it. How attentive is your coach? Has he advised the right diet and supplements? Do you feel an improvement in yourself Although RSSB gurus may say quality doesn’t matter, the best barometer is to look at yourself and observe whether it does matter. Internalising for such long periods of time is considered in various meditation paths to actually create psychological problems; read what the other Unknown has written in his 4 posts recently.
It is often difficult to read the origin of our reactions. Yours is a mixture of anger, superiority and resentment. Resentment is incidentally one of the main negetive mindsets in Tibetan Buddhism. The belief is that it ties a person to the wheel of Samsara.

Unknown,
I can only speak of my experience amongst four generations of devout satsangis and within a community full of so called devout satsangis.
Your actions show others who you are and if you do indeed follow the principals of RS. Hitherto i have not see the humilty, forgiveness, humbleness etc required of satsangis.
I was born into this, started seva when i was 4 or 5 [yes that’s correct} and now 40 years later i cannot differentiate it from any other religion.
People i thought who were pious, people who i thought who were humble, people who i thought were genuine, people who i though t were moral…turned out to be a bunch of frauds!
Many speak a good faith but to this day have not put into action….it is all book knowledge, stories and gossip! Many of these so called premie satsangis are involved in corrupt businesses {i know this as a fact}, others as soon as they leave a satsang go back to their old ways of gossip, in fighting, family squabbles, bitching, illegal practices etc. I am talking about people who have been on the path some 50-60 years!I have not seen any change! What was the point of being initiated if NOTHING changes? Even at Haynes people who are around the Master are worshiped just as much as the Master! Do you need even more evidence of how lost they are?
I was like you, having a go at anyone who was not satsangi. I enjoyed all the stories, i enjoyed the books, the seva and would relay all this to others making them feel these were MY experiences BUT then i realised that’s all it was, stories and so called experiences of others. In fact i ‘shook the world’ of a Jehovah’s Witness a couple of years ago but before leaving he said quote ‘ you are fortunate to have seen all this and experienced such wonders’, he then left before i could correct him. I felt totally corrupt and thought, how many more people have felt that way and have come onto the path on Experiences of others that in fact did not occur.
You talk about lazy people, you talk rubbish! Many have put in decades of practice and have achieved nothing….Yes maybe the numbness of the body or sounds {i suppose you have not heard of Tinnitus – especially in old age} but you get this with Any kind of Yogic / Meditation practice.
Present me with someone who has fully experienced what the Masters promise….you can’t, why, because they are not allowed to say…how very convenient. Must take it all on faith….how does this make it any different to any other faith.
Let me convey to you my own family experience;
My Grandfather has been meditating deeply for 40+ years. Ever since i have known him he has NOT been outside the realms of worldly influences….bickering, arguing, selfishness etc etc, basically being human, like we all are. He went back to India some five years ago and according to my father is tied up with the same family problems and issues as before.
I recently found out he was donating all his money to Seva, to the extent that he was not paying his servants the going rate!! Can you believe this, the poor old servants were being neglected basic human rights so he could further grow the Coffers of RS.
He is nearing 100 now and what he is trying to do……he is trying to BUY HIMSELF INTO SACHKHAND… FEAR that is what this faith and others rely on. I see it all the time, wherever there are seva boxes there are old people stuffing huge amounts of money in them! As i said just fear and nothing else…do you not feel sorry for them?
There are now many, many satsangis out there who doubt. They are using their intellect and not suppressing it as they have been told to do!
I have been fortunate, sorry let me rephrase that, unfortunate enough to be around people in the know with RS and it’s not always a pretty picture.
One incident, which all are aware of and happens all the time;
When people attend Haynes Park and the Master is present, they are made to feel shameful and demeaned, as when they go and their names are not on a list, {due to no fault of their own}, they are put into a little cabin and are left their for an hour – hour and half. Then the representative would come in and ‘tell everyone off’ and ask them not to repeat this mistake! Is this your representation of the faith? By the by, nobody cares of this when the Master is not their.
There are many instances of an organisation but i will be here forever if i began to relay all.
You have a nerve to call people lazy when you have not one iota of evidence supporting your claims…. your assumptions are just wrong.
Shin {Mr}

Dear Shin,
Very True,I think its not only you, but thousands who would be having similar sort of experience. You said,
People i thought who were pious, people who i thought who were humble, people who i thought were genuine, people who i though t were moral…turned out to be a bunch of frauds!
Many speak a good faith but to this day have not put into action….it is all book knowledge, stories and gossip! Many of these so called premie satsangis are involved in corrupt businesses {i know this as a fact}, others as soon as they leave a satsang go back to their old ways of gossip, in fighting, family squabbles, bitching, illegal practices etc.
IS THE MASTER AND HIS FAMILY NOT INCLUDED IN THESE PEOPLE?
Further you said,
There are now many, many satsangis out there who doubt.
Even the so called Master and most of the high ranking sevadars are well aware of it and have resolved their doubts by offering them sevas of importance.
Thanks and best wishes

There may not be any reasons why certain people have spiritual experiences and others don’t. Karma is an inadequate concept to attempt to explain that. But if you truly do not believe that people all over the world, since the beginning of time, have had spiritual experiences, i feel sorry for you because you are wasting time here venting your personal frustrations even with that knowledge.
On the other hand, i understand why you are frustrated. Everything is deeply mysterious in this universe though. You seem to be on the verge of becoming a materialist atheist because of lack of spiritual experiences. But before you completely close your mind why don’t you read about and consider the fact that there have been, and continue to be, unknown things in the world that do not conform to a materialistic point of view? If you carefully looked at the evidence and kept your mind open, you would see that there are in fact plenty of anomalous experiences recorded.
I do not know why you haven’t had any spiritual experiences and i don’t think anybody else knows either. It is not because they do not exist, as i stated before.
I know pratically nothing about the organisational details of RSS because i haven’t personally been involved but the kind of corruption you are talking about exists EVERYWHERE in EVERY organisation. It is an inescapable fact. You might have been personally unfortunate in that the particular people you came across in that organisation happened to be particularly “bad”. But i wouldn’t point the finger at every single person in that organisation as being personally responsible for the situation, nor would i conclude that every single person has not had spiritual experiences, especially because you haven’t.
If you read these blog comments you can see that many people come here and tell others that they do, in fact, see lights within and other similar things. So it is not as if every person on this website is like you. Your personal frustration might be temporarily clouding you to this fact.
Another thing, meditation generally relaxes people deeply. So if you have spent the last 40 years meditating you haven’t done it in vain if you have become relaxed from it. So don’t think you have wasted your time either.
I would like it if you searched the internet for astral projection websites and forums and see that people do indeed experience those things. Nobody knows why some people do and some people don’t. There can be a million opinions on that and a million explanations of what the truth of the experience is but the FACT is that it happens to some people, and that is the only important point to take away from all this. I have even seen a person write on a forum that they helped Robert Monroe write some of his books and they have been trying to have an OBE for 40 years without luck! So again, some people have these experiences and other people don’t and there doesn’t appear to be any valid reason why.
Some people here might object that seeing lights, having out of body experiences and hearing sounds have nothing to do with genuine spirituality. But they are mistaken.

“Some people here might object that seeing lights, having out of body experiences and hearing sounds have nothing to do with genuine spirituality. But they are mistaken.”
—What is genuine spirituality? How does One free oneself from being, mistaken? What is wrong with someone that is truly mistaken? What is an “out of body” experience, that could be explained by One that is not mistaken?
Thanks for any replies,
Roger
p.s. – still need to know what Hell, Eternal darkness and Eternal life are.

Dear David/Juan,
You misunderstood.
My comment was directed at Unknown and his assumption that people who are no longer on the path are out due to their inadequacies and general laziness in practice.
I never said experiences cannot be had. I also never said there is no other path.
I was relaying my experience within RS and the reliance on Reading material and unsubstantiated experiences of others.
Like i have continued to say, i am trying to free my mind and if this Forum works then great, i would be the happiest person alive. If it does not, i won’t curl up into one corner and decry my efforts. I will move on and maybe realise a truth one day when staring at my own reflection in my mirror at home.
Shin

I didn’t say you said that experiences cannot be had but judging by what you said about tinnitus and your overall post it sure seemed to me that you were frustrated at a lack of experiences.
Likewise, you talk about the unsubstantiated experiences of others. If you aren’t talking about spiritual experiences here what are you talking about? And why does it matter to you whether other people claim to have experiences? Surely your experiences are more important?
What do you mean by “trying to free my mind”? That sounds ridiculous to me. You already seem to be sure you are right so why would you need to come here to prove it to yourself? If you genuinely have doubts about the authenticity of the RSS path then i CAN understand your frustration but it sounds to me like you have already made up your mind, which is why i cannot understand what you hope to achieve at this website.

David, you’re confused. Suggestion: do some clear thinking, take a deep breath, and look freshly at what I and other people are saying here.
You’d be hard pressed to find any assertion that people don’t have what they call “spiritual experiences.” Heck, I have them all the time. Every time I walk the dog on a clear Oregon night when the moon is full, owls are hooting, and stars are shining brightly. I feel a connection with the cosmos that can’t be put into words.
What we hope to achieve here, or at least what I do, is open discussion. And support for those who want openness rather than dogmatism, independence rather than authority, evidence rather than blind faith.
Who says we have made up our minds? Quite the opposite. People here are seeking truth in an open-minded fashion. It is the true believers who have made a firm distinction between truth and falsehood.
From personal experience I recognize that it is difficult to break out of a fundamentalist mindset, where skepticism and questioning is viewed as heretical, wrong, the devil’s workshop. Look at things from a different angle and I suspect you’ll feel more comfortable with a freer approach to spirituality and philosophy.

No, sorry to burst your bubble but i am not confused and i don’t need to take any deep breaths.
You have repeatedly, all over this website, talked about your lack of spiritual experiences with meditation. I wasn’t talking about mundane, everyday experiences that some people call “spiritual” like walking the dog. I was specifically talking about spiritual experiences in meditation and also things like Out of Body experiences and psychic phenomena. So that needs to be cleared up.
As i said just now in my other post in the newer thread, skepticism is fine and it is needed. But dogmatic skepticism is no better than religious dogmatism. And you appear to be persuaded by arguments from dogmatic skeptics.
Of course religious dogma is bullshit. I don’t think anyone around these parts has a problem with that. And obvoiusly the cult of RSS has dogma and questionable organisational practices and claims made by the gurus. Everything should be submitted for the “acid test” so to speak.
Shin has reasonable doubts and has made good points but i see flaws in some of what he has said and i have pointed them out. Let me be unequivocal here – spiritual experiences with meditation and b) his observations of people within the RSS cult and how they don’t live up to his expectations, when behaviours of this sort happen EVERYWHERE in EVERY organisation. That is all i have said really.

You are all right, every single one of you, Shin and David and unknown, maybe even Brian in his unknowingness is getting closer to knowing
Problem is we judge from a position of blindness, unknown is not wrong, perhaps he is frustrated with the audacity of blindness, but ultimately nothing will be found outside of your center, not by anyone, and whoever gives you a false notion to challenge just challenge yourself, egocentric wrangling about right and wrong, spiritual or mundane will fundamentally get no one anywhere further than they are already.
It is so simple its almost mind blowing, thats exactly how succinctly simply it actually is.

ashy, that is so nice and so well put. Thank you.

All,
Let me clear up a couple of things first:
1. I am only 40yrs old
2. Initiated 10yrs ago
3. Male.
Ok hope that’s that.
Why are people questioning their beliefs…because they have seen, heard or experienced or lack of, something that does not conform to the beliefs.
You have faiths that do indeed promise a lot and do not deliver! Therefore it is only natural to Doubt and Question. We are human after all, though some may think they are far superior.
When I came across this website all i wanted to do was remake my mixed up and confused JIGSAW {actually pieces were indeed missing}. After reading the numerous posts and making further investigations, i have the pieces and it is up to me how i use them and what my Jigsaw will ultimately look like.
Brian is exactly right when he says:
Brian Writes:
What we hope to achieve here, or at least what I do, is open discussion. And support for those who want openness rather than dogmatism, independence rather than authority, evidence rather than blind faith.
Who says we have made up our minds? Quite the opposite. People here are seeking truth in an open-minded fashion. It is the true believers who have made a firm distinction between truth and falsehood.
That is why i came here and am extremely grateful for all the comments from whichever side they came from.
I would hope you would now let me ‘get on with it’ as it is true, all this wrangling as Ashy would like to put it is achieving little.
But it is indeed needed {scientist make many mistakes before achieving anything of note – trial & error}.
Future readers will gain Spiritually as i know others who are new to CC but are on the outside are keeping an close eye on all posts before committing their own opinions or making judgements.
Again, i appreciate all that has transpired and you never know, one day, when in between incarnations {if you believe} we will all sit down and have a good chuckle at the Game we have just played and took so seriously.
take care,
Shin

Shin,
Bravo! Your comments are quite thoughtful and articulate. And contrary to what David may say, I can see that you are honestly trying to step back and away from the hype of RS. Its really great to see someone like you asking the hard questions, and your willingness to face reality and let go of illusions and hypocrisy of cultic pseudo-spirituality. Keep on moving forward an onward brother.
David,
Those “mundane, everyday experiences” that you mention are not necessarily not spiritual. Some of the most profound spiritual insights and trascendent experiences happen in seemingly normal circumatances.
And also, your idea and belief that so-called spiritual experiences are restricted and confined only to “meditation and also things like Out of Body experiences and psychic phenomena” is not valid or correct.
In fact, so-called out-of-body experiences (OBE) and psychic phenomena etc are not of the level of true knowledge, wisdom, or direct insight/realization. They are merely nothing more than transitory perceptual phenomena, regardless of whether they are experienced through the five external senses or via meditation.
You apparently do not yet know the difference between a)perceptual sensory phenomena; and b)direct insight-awareness or realization. To put any stock or value in the transitory out-of-body and experiences and psychic phenomena that you mention, indicates an fundamental absence of real discriminative wisdom or realization – jnana.
You said: “Of course religious dogma is bullshit. I don’t think anyone around these parts has a problem with that.”
— I disagree. A percentage of folks who visit here do in fact have “a problem” of denial realitve to their attachment to religious dogma.
“And obvoiusly the cult of RSS has dogma and questionable organisational practices…” “…behaviours of this sort happen EVERYWHERE in EVERY organisation.”
— Yes, and so what? Just because they happen elsewhere in other organizations, does not make it any less applicable to RS. And a lot of the discussion here centers around RS.
Ashy,
I disagree with you too. Not necessarily everyone is “all right”… nor is it a matter or issue of “getting closer to knowing”. But then its difficult to ascertain what it actually is that you are referring to.
Who is “getting closer to knowing”?
And “getting closer to “knowing” what?
Do you think that there is something to know, something that others do not yet know?
“we judge from a position of blindness”
— Who is in this “position of blindness”?
“ultimately nothing will be found outside of your center”
— And where is this “center”?
“egocentric wrangling about right and wrong, spiritual or mundane”
— Who here is “wrangeling about right and wrong”? Just look at yourself.
“will […] get no one anywhere further than they are already”
— And just where is there to “get” to?
“It is so simple its almost mind blowing”
— What is “so simple”? If you are going to say that “it” is “so simple”, then you really ought to indicate what “it” is. Otherwise, you’re meaningless. Don’t expect people to read your mind. If you wish to say something, then say it more clearly.

tao, there is really no point in reading your posts because you seem to knock everything a person says in a very aggressive way and then you tout jnana as if it is the be all and end all of everything. How do you know that?
I didn’t say that spiritual experiences cannot happen in mundane ordinary activities. In fact i said the opposite.
If you are going to dismiss the spiritual experiences i mentioned (and i didn’t mention others so there was nothing i did wrong there!) that is your call but you are mistaken. So what if they are perceptual phenomena? The eyes you are using to read these words are perceptual phenomena and your response to these words is perceptual phenomena. You don’t get one up on me or anybody else simply by pointing that out. And your one-upmanship is clearly a psychological disorder of some kind.
I’ve seen you bash almost everybody that writes here. You can’t expect people to take you seriously if you curse and swear. (although it would be funny reading a spiritual book of jnana where every other word contained was “bullshit”).
People generally earn respect in this world but you piss in people’s faces and seem to expect them to acknowledge your spiritual brand of choice thereafter. It doesn’t work that way.
“what way is “is” and how doesn’t “it” work that “way”?” and so on, garbage ad infinitum. A dissection of words with the obvious intent to plug jnana.
Let me put it this way: you say that perceptual phenomena are transitory so i infer you mean they are somehow meaningless, and i simply do not agree with you. Your opinion is yours and my opinion is mine and never the twain shall they meet.

David,
I don’t “tout” any such thing. And I don’t claim to know anything.
“So what if they are perceptual phenomena? The eyes you are using to read these words are perceptual phenomena and your response to these words is perceptual phenomena.”
— Perceptions are transitory, thats what. And apparently you have a different definition of “spiritual experiences” than I do.
“You don’t get one up on me or anybody else”
— I did not imply any such “one up” or “one-upmanship”. And your mistaken interpretation of that indicates that you are the one with some “psychological disorder of some kind”.
“You can’t expect people to take you seriously if you curse and swear.”
— Thats merely your own limited opinion. Others don’t necessarily see it that way.
Btw, you seem to have some odd fixation or reaction to the term “jnana”. Is that something you have a charge about?
Also, I am not looking for any such “respect”… in fact, I could not care less about your so-called “respect”. And to you, if I seem to “piss in people’s faces”, then that’s something you’ll have to sort out yourself. But then maybe life will do it for you.
I also don’t “expect” anyone “to acknowledge [my] spiritual brand of choice”. I don’t do “brands”. And you don’t seem to have any clue where I am at (or not at) anyway.
“A dissection of words with the obvious intent to plug jnana.”
— You really do not have any clue. And clearly, you do have some kind of big hang-up about “jnana”… which I don’t at all. Its just a word. You obviously have some problem with that David. You really need to grow-up dude… philosophically speaking.
“Let me put it this way: you say that perceptual phenomena are transitory so i infer you mean they are somehow meaningless”
— No. Transitory simply means transitory. I did not say “meaningless”, so don’t try to put words in my mouth.
“i simply do not agree with you.”
— In other words, you don’t agree with somehing that I did not say. You are putting words in my mouth, and then disagreeing with them. That is disingenuous bullshit. Go pick a fight with someone where you have something legitimate to argue about. I am not interested in your pointless game.
“Your opinion is yours and my opinion is mine and never the twain shall they meet.”
— Pretty damn hard-headed aren’t you? Brian was right about you. Later for you dude.

That is why i said i “infer” you meant meaningless, because that is the implication behind your comments on the transitoriness of those phenomena. IF that isn’t the implication behind what you said, what were you trying to get at exactly? Simply saying those phenomena are transitory is like saying precisely nothing. Just hot air. You should have instead at least mentioned something about the relative worth of those phenomena but your style seems blatantly dismissive.
Yes i do have a “hang up” with jnana yoga teachings because they say that it is possible to experience something absolute ie the subject becomes aware of themself and only themself. But how can an experience contain no object when all experiences are based on perception, which denotes a suject AND an object?
Brian wasn’t right about me. He was totally wrong. And he deleted a whole new thread presumably because he wasn’t comfortable with what i said when i pointed out that his lack of spiritual experience in meditation is inadequate and doesn’t explain how other people have spiritual experiences in meditation and have done since the beginning of time.

David, speak the truth. I deleted nothing. The only comments I ever delete are spam and duplicates (when people publish the same comment twice).
You should make sure that your facts are straight before you spread lies. Notice that I’ve left your erroneous comment about me up and simply corrected your untruth.
Why don’t you try criticizing a religious organization of East or West on their blog and see how open-minded believers are compared to churchless folks like me?
Oh, I forgot — you can’t. Because the faithful don’t like criticism or open discussion. You should feel grateful that you’re able to take advantage of this forum rather than spreading crap about me deleting comments.

David,
You seem to be looking for an argument. And you are still nit-picking my use of the term “transitory”. And in that respect, you are still attempting to twist my meaning.
You said: “i said i “infer” you meant meaningless, because that is the implication behind your comments on the transitoriness of those phenomena. IF that isn’t the implication behind what you said, what were you trying to get at exactly? Simply saying those phenomena are transitory is like saying precisely nothing.”
Transitory simply means transitory, or ephemeral. It doesn’t indicate “meaningless” at all. That is your idea, not mine. Perceptual phenomena are transitory, but that does not mean that it is meaningless. Meaning can be derived from many things, and depends on the individual. What is meaninless to you, may be meaningful to someone else, and vice versa. When I said transitory, thats what I meant.
For instance, you can call OBEs and psychic experiences “spiritual” if you want to. But I don’t regard or define transitory perceptual phenomena such as you mentioned, to be spiritual from my point of view, understanding, and experience. I myself have had a great deal of such kinds of extraordinary or mystical perceptions and experiences, but since they are all temporary and transitory, I do not regard them as being “spiritual”. From my point of view, spiritual relates to spirit, ie: not in the transitory and impermanent domain of the physical/material or of the mental/mind; not of the realm of impermanence, change, or birth & death; that which is not transitory – and which is also defined as that which is ‘real’ or permanent.
So in my view and definition, the “spiritual” is that which is not transitory or impermanent. And contrary to your mistaken interpretation, “transitory” had nothing to do with “meaningless” in my comments. As I said before, meaning can be derived from many things, including transitory phenomena. Every phenomena throughout life is transitory. But that does not make all such transitory perceptions and experiences and phenomena “meaningless”.
To gain a better understanding of what “meaning” actually is, I would suggest that you read “Man’s Search for Meaning”, by Dr. Viktor Frankl.
“You should have instead at least mentioned something about the relative worth of those phenomena but your style seems blatantly dismissive.”
— On the contrary, I wrote very plainly and to the point. The problem is that you did not take what I said at face value. You have attempted to put a spin on it, to create a straw-man, and then use that false inference to then criticise me. That is disingenuous and wrong. You obviously want to use your own distorted interpretations to pick a fight with me.
And you also did more or less the same thing with my use of the term “jnana”. Its not my problem if you have a hang-up or charge relative to the term “jnana”.
You said: “Yes i do have a “hang up” with jnana yoga teachings because they say that it is possible to experience something absolute ie the subject becomes aware of themself and only themself.”
— That is not at all what the term “jnana” refers to, nor do the teachings of so-called jnana yoga say “that it is possible to experience something absolute ie the subject becomes aware of themself and only themself”.
That is an extremely mistaken, erroneous, and distorted interpretation, which has nothing to do with jnana, atma-vichara, jnana samadhi, yoga, or with dvaita or advaita vedanta.
“But how can an experience contain no object when all experiences are based on perception, which denotes a suject AND an object?”
— Brahm-jnana or atma-jnana (self-knowledge) is not an sensory “experience” nor a subect-object “perception” or orientation.
“Brian wasn’t right about me. […] with what i said when i pointed out that his lack of spiritual experience in meditation is inadequate and doesn’t explain how other people have spiritual experiences in meditation and have done since the beginning of time.”
— Brian never denied that other people may or do have meditation experiences. Many people throughout history have had mystical or supernormal experiences, and that is undeniable.
The real questions are:
a.) The RS doctrine is based upon meditation experiences – so if experiences are not forthcoming after 30 years, then the doctrine and practice deserves serious questioning;
b.) Merely having some so-called inner experiences (light and sounds and visions) in meditation does not equate with the stated goal of RS shabd-yoga, which ukltimately is transcendental god-realzation, liberation, or enlightenment. There is no evidence of that in any practioners, even after engaging in years of Santmat meditation.

Perhaps Ashy will challenge himself in a mind blowing so succintly simple fashion from the centre of his ego-centric wrangling self. Firstly all are right, but then next he says how wrong most are; Brian is in his unknowingness; there is ‘perhaps’frustration with the audacity of blindness (of his respondents); apparently a false notion has been given that is tempting to challenge but should rather not be (note that Ashy has been doing some challenging and not of himself); people are full of ego-centric wrangling; he assumes that what is being discussed here will get no-one any further and then he suggests that because nothing has been ‘found’that people can’t be coming from their ‘centre’. So all together misunderstanding, judgement, authoritarianism, abstraction, and a budding love for alliteration.

Shin,
Glad you’re here Bro… and I hope you hang around from time to time.
Btw, our new arrival Ashy wouldn’t be one of those uhh vengeful satsangi relatives of yours? *just kidding* ;^}

tao, i respect your reply this time as “my” interpretation of it is that it wasn’t agressive. No need to comment on that further.
You said that jnana had nothing to do with the things i mentioned as if jnana was some monolithic construct, which it clearly isn’t as you can see from writings such as Swami Vivekananda. He talks about the subject-object relationship and how all objects disappear as the subject merges into the Self. I beg to differ (again) that the examples i gave on jnana indicate a lack of understanding of jnana. I don’t think there is any point in belabouring this point and taking it further.
Since you yourself said you have had many spiritual experiences of transitory phenomena such as OBEs, it surprises me that you wouldn’t relate that to Brian’s lack of experiences in meditation. That is simply just my observation and is not intended in any way to be condesending.
The best approach here is to ask questions. So, have you ever told Brian that these spiritual experiences do indeed exist? If not, why not?
Brian, i’m not spreading lies at all. Did you or did you not write another blog which you removed? And why did you remove it? All i said was, “and he deleted a whole knew thread PRESUMABLY BECAUSE..” That is, i presume you deleted that thread for the reasons i gave though that doesn’t make those reasons correct. The qualifier in that sentence was “presumably”. Make no mistake about it, i am being extra careful with my words here to avoid being misunderstood, which seems to have happened already anyway.
Now, if you want my opinion, i believe that YOU ARE LYING. You did create another thread which had 10 posts comments to its name before i started writing there. When you speak about religions having a bad time with dissenting views and then go on to say people like me should be grateful for a website and blog like this one, it sounds like a veiled threat.
Perhaps a better question would be, “what happened to that thread?” Did you move it? Where is it now?
Of course it is easy to accuse me of lying here because you control this website and can delete the evidence. However, Shin had commented in that thread so unless Shin is a troll and puppet, i have a witness to verify my claims. And you can hardly suppress that.
To take up what you said about religions being intolerant, i have nothing to disagree with there.
Tao, the 2 points you mentioned deserve recognition. My question about point (1) is, do people joining the RSS cult expect to get spiritual experiences handed to them by proxy? Doesn’t the RSS literature state quite clearly that not everybody sees light or hears sounds at initiation? Doesn’t it further say that not all people go on to have those experiences even after initiation for quite some time? I would say that if the gurus of RSS are supposed to have the actual power to transmit those experiences at initiations then it shouldn’t matter about any karmic disposition of the student. Furthermore, this RSS literature also states that people coming to RSS are “marked souls”. So the concept that karma has anything to do with having a spiritual experience at initiation makes even less sense. From what i have read though i believe Charan Singh said that even people assosiated with RSS are not all marked souls. So it is definitely a confusing situation all this stuff.
Promises, promises, and failing to deliver the goods. Sure enough, people like Brian are quite right to question their lack of spiritual experiences after being associated with RSS for such a long time. Personally if it was me, i would have given up the meditation racket way before 30 years had elapsed. It is astonishing to me that someone can meditate for such a long time and have no experiences but still cling to the RSS cult. I would have left as soon as Charan Singh died because apparently he was the person dishing out those spiritual experiences. He obviously had no such ability in the first place.

Dear David,
I dont know anything about Brian deleting blogs but I would consider that TypePad is the possible cause of this problem.
Best regards
Obed

Some of my comments didn’t go through. I later determined that I forgot to type in the Spam protect code letters and numbers. My oversight.
How long is this “spiritual experience” bullshit going to continue? Any other topics, to end the week with?
I really enjoyed the nutrition discussion, from last week.
Roger

tAo,Brain & Others,
I will look in periodically and let you now how i am doing. I will also keep an eye out on friends & relatives who may wish to ‘Dip their toes in’ and rightly question. Just like they you would question anything else in life….there is no point supressing those very real feelings.
take care,
Shin

David, I repeat, with some irritation: I didn’t delete any comments or any blog post. If you don’t know how to post a comment, that isn’t my fault. Like someone said above, you need to put in the “CAPCHA” code before a comment is posted.
I have to do this myself. I wish that wasn’t necessary, but when I’ve removed the CAPCHA requirement I get hundreds (literally) of spam comments showing up in this blog’s spam folder. Then I have to delete them. Plus, a few will get through and actually appear online.
Hope you aren’t irritated with my irritation. I just am bothered by your unwillingness to consider that you’re wrong, and I’m right. Of course, I also have to consider the slight possibility that I also could be wrong.
However, since I’ve never consciously deleted comments other than spam or duplicates — which does include a few instances of “religious spam” (lengthy quotes or preachings totally unrelated to the post they were attached to) — I find it very difficult to imagine that I did that this time.
So you should seriously consider that you’re mistaken. I have no memory of deleting any comments recently, or close to recently. And it appears that no one other than you has such a memory either. Thus the problem seems much more likely to reside within you, rather than in reality.
Lastly, I agree with Roger about the “spiritual experience” bullshit. Is this supposed to be a competition, “my spiritual experience is bigger than yours”?
OK, I’ll play. When I go for one of my moonlit dog walks around a nearby lake on a clear cold Oregon night, and owls perched on the top of tall fir trees are hooting to each other across what otherwise is serene silence, I have a profound spiritual experience — that the cosmos is absolutely fine just as it is… Mystery.
So there, match that! Oh, except you’ll probably say that the only genuine spiritual experiences are those in closed-eyed meditation, following exactly a certain supposedly mystical practice. Thus my own mystical experiences don’t count.

To answer your question tAo, not quite sure which Clan Ashy originates from….but i would say he/she has probably got more to think about since ‘dipping those toes’!
I would also just like to add one final point.
Think logically…is that logical….before you decide on anything, did you use logic!
Long live the word ‘Logic’….used so many times by so called masters, preachers, followers….but put into practice by so so few!
I am here because of my logic and when it does not ‘fit’, it is not logical!
Shin

David, a P.S: TypePad (which hosts my blogs) sends me an email whenever a comment is posted. I delete those after I’ve read them, but they’re all still in my Trash folder. If you tell me the day you posted some comments that supposedly were deleted, I can look for them in that folder and see if they actually were posted.
Like I said, I’m open to the possibility that they got deleted inadvertently. I’m just certain that I didn’t do this on purpose.

David and all, well, I was right. And David was also partially right, in that some comments on this post left on March 17 and earlier are missing. I found them as published in the TypePad comments file, but obviously they aren’t.
I tried republishing them, but they still don’t show up. So I’ll put in a TypePad help ticket. Hopefully they’ll reappear soon. These glitches happen — no blog service is perfect.
A lesson here, David, is not to jump to conclusions. You should have simply said, “some comments seem to be missing.” That’s what you knew, but you went beyond that and attacked me for deleting them.
Not surprisingly, I focused on your unfounded charge that I’d deleted them, since i knew I hadn’t. Yes, I guess I should have realized that you could be wrong about that but right about the comments missing. So we’re both at fault.
Things would have gone more smoothly if you’d simply said, “Hey, Brian, can you check on some comments I left that aren’t there any more? We seem to have a problem.” Instead, you went into a big rant about how I don’t like criticism and such.
Good lesson for us all here. Stick to what is evident and don’t jump to unfounded conclusions. This was a computer software problem, not a moral problem.
[addendum: in describing the problem to TypePad support via a help ticket, I realized that the fifty missing comments range from March 17 to March 13, when the post was published. Almost certainly not coincidentally, March 13 is when TypePad announced “improvements” to its commenting feature. One of the changes probably caused the comments to disappear.]

All of the comments on this post seem to be back now. Looks like there was a lag between when I republished them and when they showed up, perhaps because fifty comments take longer to be published than a single comment.
I haven’t noticed any missing comments on other posts. Hopefully the TypePad glitch was limited to this post.

David said,
” Let’s not debate anything about mundane experiences “.
VERY GOOD THEN !! LETS DEBATE ABOUT MEDITATIONAL EXPERIENCES !!
david, you see sant mat is not a science.
In science you must know the results of an experiment. You analysis and discuss the experiment and the results. And that’s how you learn.
Sant Mat does not allow the discussion of any experiences (how convenient i might add). Therefore there is nothing to study and nothing to learn from sant mat. Just faith based on dogma with no substantiation whatsoever.
It’s all just pretending.

“Bennoon: Forgive me, Master. But your logic confounds me with its illogicality.
MIRDAD:No wonder, Bennoon, you have been called ‘the judge’.You would insist upon the logic of the case before you can decide it. Have you been judge so long and have not yet found out that the only use of Logic is to rid Man of Logic and lead him to Faith which leads to Understanding?
Logic is immaturity weaving its nets of gossamer wherewith it aims to catch the behemoth of knowledge. When logic comes of age it strangles itself in its nets and then becomes transmuted into Faith, which is the deeper knowledge.
Logic is a crutch for the cripple; but a burden for the swift of foot;and a greater burden still for the winged.”

About the “Book of Mirdad on Logic” comment…
“it is a Tale Told by an Idiot, Full of Sound and Fury, Signifying Nothing”
— from William Shakespeare’s Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5

David,
“You said that jnana […] as if jnana was some monolithic construct, which it clearly isn’t”
— No, I did not imply that. Jnana is simply direct knowledge, not intellectual or conceptual knowledge.
“from writings such as Swami Vivekananda. He talks about the subject-object relationship and how all objects disappear as the subject merges into the Self.”
— Those are merely words and ideas that attempt to describe something that is non-dual, but framed in a dualistic concept. In reality there is no “merges into the Self”. There is no “subject” that is ever apart from the Self that “merges”. Jnana is simply the awareness of, or direct knowledge of, this non-duality.
“I beg to differ […] I don’t think there is any point in belabouring this point and taking it further.”
— You can argue about the concept of “jnana” all day, but jnana is simply direct non-conceptual knowledge, Self-knowledge. You either understand that, or you don’t. And to truly understand that, one must abide in the actual state of jnana. So all debates about jnana are in fact pointless and useless.
“Since you yourself said you have had many spiritual experiences of transitory phenomena such as OBEs, it surprises me that you wouldn’t relate that to Brian’s lack of experiences in meditation.”
— To clarify… I did not say that I had “OBEs”. And the experiences I have had are difficult to relate and are of no use to Brian anyway.
“So, have you ever told Brian that these spiritual experiences do indeed exist? If not, why not?”
— Brian is well aware that other people do have what you describe as “spiritual experiences” and altered states, either in meditation or otherwise. So I am sure Brian is aware that these experiences do “exist”. I also do not need to relate my own personal experiences (most of which happened outside of formal meditation) to Brian, or vice-versa.
“Tao, My question about point (1) is, do people joining the RSS cult expect to get spiritual experiences handed to them by proxy?”
— David, fyi, here is what I said:
“The RS doctrine is based upon meditation experiences – so if experiences are not forthcoming after 30 years, then the doctrine and practice deserves serious questioning”
I said “after 30 years” (of diligent meditation)… I did not say or imply that anyone should “get spiritual experiences handed to them by proxy”
“Doesn’t the RSS literature state quite clearly that not everybody sees light or hears sounds at initiation? Doesn’t it further say that not all people go on to have those experiences even after initiation for quite some time?”
— Yes, but that does not exempt it from questioning.
“I would say that if the gurus of RSS are supposed to have the actual power to transmit those experiences at initiations”
— I have never heard any such thing (ie: “the actual power to transmit those experiences at initiations”). I was never given that expectation, and I doubt that Brian had that expectation either.
“Furthermore, this RSS literature also states that people coming to RSS are “marked souls”.”
— Yes, RS says that… but that idea is merely propaganda and myth. It is conjecture and cannot be proven.
“So it is definitely a confusing situation all this stuff.”
— It is confusing, but more importantly, it is basically abstraction, theology, belief in supernaturalism, and myth masquerading as fact and science.
“it was me, i would have given up the meditation racket way before 30 years had elapsed. It is astonishing to me that someone can meditate for such a long time and have no experiences”
— That IS the point.
“I would have left as soon as Charan Singh died because apparently he was the person dishing out those spiritual experiences.”
— No, that is not quite what RS doctine says. Maybe you think or belive that is the case, but I never ever held any such notion – namely that Charan (or any RS master) “was the person dishing out those spiritual experiences”. But yes, they tend to say that mediation experiences are the “grace of the guru”. But that too is just another way to manipulate people to have faith in, and surrender towards the guru.
“He [Charan] obviously had no such ability in the first place.”
— I don’t know for sure… but I doubt it because the entire idea is a myth, imo.

Brian, you will forgive me for stating my OPINION, as i put it suscintly, that you were lying. I was careful to say it was my opinion and that should be enough to clear away misunderstandings here. As you have pointed out, there was a mistake in the software or what not and i am sorry and i apologise to you for perhaps jumping to the conclusions i did.
Roger, the fact of the matter is this – you didn’t really produce anything worthwhile with your questions and then you turn around now and say that there was some kind of defect in my questioning Brian’s lack of experience in meditation. There was no defect. You see things that don’t exist in reality here. Why don’t you bring your platter to the table and tell us all about your experience in meditation so far? It would be completely comprehendable to me and perhaps to other people that your apparent lack of spiritual experience in meditation prompt you to react in the way you have. On the other hand, if you really do possess those experiences then you shouldn’t have a problem with what i said.
I have tried to be as plain and simple in my words as it is possible for me to be, and i have tried to point out that Brian’s lack of experience with meditation is not a valid reason for concluding that other people do not have genuine spiritual experiences with meditation. I cannot possibly be more explicit than this. If you have a problem with my conclusions on this matter then it reflects your own biases and misinterpretations of what i have said and doesn’t reflect truly what I have said.
How fitting! – that people can come here and not give their real name or reveal anything about themselves and then post a sarcastic diatribe about the use of logic and how that logic is somehow inadequate. NEWS FLASH! – logic is not the problem, it wasn’t MY problem and the contention that it ever was is your false interpretation of the meanings behind the points and words made.

David, re. the comments…no problem. I should have checked the comment conversation sooner to see if there were any obvious problems. Which, there were.
Regarding experiences in meditation, I don’t doubt that people have them. What I keep asking for, though, and rarely getting, are detailed, explicit descriptions of those experiences. How they came about; what was seen, heard, etc; what lasting changes or increased wisdom resulted from the experiences, if any.
I also keep waiting for evidence that any sort of supra-physical knowledge results from the experiences. I still have a dollar bill tucked in a corner of my wallet, after somebody commented that through meditation it was possible to gain ultimate knowledge.
So far he hasn’t even been able to tell me the serial numbers on the bill. So much for ultimate knowledge.

David, I still sense a particular tone or attitude or edge to your comments and responses. Are you in a bad mood much of the time?… because it sure feels that way.
Moving ahead…
You said to Roger: “you didn’t really produce anything worthwhile with your questions” — Questions are questions – they are not supposed to produce something. Its the answers that are supposed to produce something. Roger likes to ask questions, and usually because he is seeking clarification or addition info.
You asked Roger: “Why don’t you bring your platter to the table and tell us all about your experience in meditation so far?”
— Well I can’t speak about Roger’s meditations, but I can tell you that Roger has previously indicated that he is not an initiated practioner of santmat/shabda yoga. So therefore I assume that he has no specific santmat/shabd meditation type of “experiences” to report. So Roger isn’t deliberately avoiding sharing his experiences.
“It would be completely comprehendable to me and perhaps to other people that your apparent lack of spiritual experience in meditation prompt you to react in the way you have. On the other hand, if you really do possess those experiences then you shouldn’t have a problem with what i said.”
— Again, you seem to be assuming that Roger is a shabda yoga practioner or an RS satsangi. Why can’t you just ASK Roger… minus the challenging attitude? It is unnecessary to attack Roger about his meditation experiences or lack thereof. Why are you on Roger’s case anyway? Roger is a good man, and he simply asked you some questions.
“i have tried to point out that Brian’s lack of experience with meditation is not a valid reason for concluding that other people do not have genuine spiritual experiences with meditation.”
— But you seem to continue missing the very important point that, whether people do or don’t have some sort of experiences in their meditations, it does not validate the over-all premise or the supposed goal of the RS teaching and path. Some people say that they do have experiences, and Brian has never denied that.
But so what if they have “experiences”? Please tell us, what does that mean to you? Lets get to the crux of this. Why is it so important to you that some people say they have experiences? Even if they do (have experiences), of what ultimate consequence is that? Do you think that having experiences in meditation has some great significance? Do you think that just having experiences equates to achieving the goal of santmat? I am asking you these questions simply to find out and understand what exactly your premises are. If you would explain your own views, instead of attacking others for asking questions, then we might get somewhere with this discussion.
“If you have a problem with my conclusions on this matter”
— OK… what exactly ARE your conclusions? about meditation, about so-called experiences, about the core premises of santmat, etc.
“then it reflects your own biases and misinterpretations of what i have said and doesn’t reflect truly what I have said.”
— Thats basically what I said to you.
“people can come here and not give their real name or reveal anything about themselves and then post a sarcastic diatribe about the use of logic and how that logic is somehow inadequate.”
— What “diatribe” are you referring to? I honestly did not see that. Could you indicate what you are referring to? You aren’t referring to that quote from “Mirdad” that someone posted are you?
“logic is not the problem”
— You are correct, I do agree with that.

Tao,
Thanks for the kind words. Best wishes to you.
To the Regulars,
Not that it is important, however, what is the big deal with a lack or abundance of meditation and spiritual experiences?
If these experiences are important, then, could someone explain, in their own words, why? What special situation is obtained by having such experiences? Not that there is something wrong or right, regarding such.
In addition, the mechanism, as to how an experience is translated to the brain. Are these experiences conceptual mental activity, nonconceptual, or a mix?
Best wishes,
Roger

Brian,
The contention that people become omniscient by meditating is obviously false in my opinion. I don’t see many people walking about with omniscience! They might hint at it and claim to possess it that way but it is a sham.
It’s good to hear you don’t dispute that other people have spiritual experiences within meditation. So i take back everything i said before.
I truly do believe that life is a mystery and there is an intelligence behind it that we cannot fathom with our minds. Whatever that intelligence is it must have at least some kind of omniscient quality. But that doesn’t mean that a human being can know the same thing. And so i reject claims made by gurus where they say that omniscience can be aquired.
Swami Vivekananda said something to the effect that through yoga a man can become ALMOST omniscient. I think his words give the game away. At least he was honest though, unlike a lot of other gurus.
Kirpal Singh seems to have been one of those that claimed omniscience. If you have ever read his book where he compares all the yogas with sant mat it is clear to me that his knowledge is great but unsatisfactory in certain respects. For example, he said that Ramakrishnas bhakti approach was limited because Ramakrishna couldn’t get past duality, and that this is the characteristic of bhakti yoga and therefore Sant Mat is superior. However, he failed to mention that Ramakrishna did indeed get past duality when he described his experience of slashing the Divine Mother in two. So we can see very clearly from this example that Kirpal Singh had an agenda.
What i would say about RSS meditation is that it is a very good way because it cuts to the chase and avoids a lot of other useless diversions and practices. Having the body go numb is actually sleep paralysis and that state is conducive to OBEs. But the mystery of life here appears to be that not everyone will have an OBE, and i can see no reason to it.
Tao, i cannot respond to your lengthy response because it is time consuming and i am pretty stupid. The only thing that seems obvious to me is that if there is an afterlife, that is the most precious information a human being can know of. There might be people such as yourself that transcend these phenomenal experiences but to me and most of humanity the existence of an afterlife would seem paramount.

David,
I hardly think that you’re “pretty stupid”.
You said to me: “if there is an afterlife, that is the most precious information a human being can know of.”
— Well you see, that IS the question. But spiritual experiences and obes via meditation do not verify that there is any afterlife. Simply because you’re not dead yet… and no one has ever come back after being really and truly dead, to tell the answer.
You also said to me: “There might be people such as yourself that transcend these phenomenal experiences but to me and most of humanity the existence of an afterlife would seem paramount.”
— Whether or not I “transcend phenomenal experiences” is irrelevant. These experiences simply do not prove “the existence of an afterlife”.
This is something that so many people on various spiritual paths seem to miss and fail to see and understand. Just because you have supposed Obe experiences, psychic experiences, yogic expewriences, mystical experiences, visionary experiences, or whatever… does not prove the existence of any afterlife. So you can have all sorts of experiences, but all such experiences are while you are still alive and your brain is still functioning. They don’t happen (or at least we do not know if they happen) after you are truly 100 percent dead. So what is the point in belaboring this issue? There is no proof, because if there realy was conclusive proof, it would be headline news.

There are some pretty convincing proofs from NDE research. Not evidence but at least something towards proof. Or is it the other way around?
I think it’s true though that nobody knows because nobody has come back from being fully dead to tell us. There are some supposed materialisation mediums but i find that kind of thing unconvincing.
More promising to me are the psychics because they seem to be able to pick up information that they couldn’t possibly ordinarily know. I am certain that psychic ability does exist even though 99% of psychics are fraudulent. So the question here becomes, how are they picking up that information? Is it some kind of brain function or unconscious data processing? That is the most likely alternative explanation.
I think the important point to make here is that when people get spontaneous spiritual experiences they seem to come from nowhere and are not the product of the will or desire of the person that has them. This for me raises many points about that msterious thing we call “God”.
And i cannot help but note that in physics is says that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so when we die where does the energy go? There is clearly a difference between a dead body and a living body even though we haven’t discovered what it is yet.
But the reason for me why all this is important is because i have a huge fear of death and i don’t know how to relieve that fear. I so much want that issue to be resolved and i can’t see any other way than by meditating to try to discover it.

“But the reason for me why all this is important is because i have a huge fear of death and i don’t know how to relieve that fear. I so much want that issue to be resolved and i can’t see any other way than by meditating to try to discover it.”
—Very revealing statement. Seeking a spiritual experience thru meditation, based on a genuine(huge)fear of death. Nothing wrong with being honest.

Revealing in what way?
Do you have no fear of death yourself? If so, why?

David,
Perhaps revealing in the sense that it helps explain your strong adherence to a belief system. You’re not alone in your fear of death. Have you seen this comment thread? See what you discover there..
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2006/02/death_and_the_p

Interesting topics for discussion:
What is a spirtual experience? A non-conceptual, non-mental activity?
If so, then what would be the mechanism, as to how this (nc,nm) activity would be transmitted to a conceptual mental activity, with the goal of “reducing” a genuine conceptual fear of death?
Does this mean, the seeker, goes thru training, practice sessions, daily or weekly monitoring of progress meetings?
If this process works, just think of the countless fears, One can reduce. A reduced realm of fear, is this what One’s purpose is?
Roger

Dear David,
You are a brave courageous person.I want to give you a strong virtual hug.
I have no magic pill for your fear of death.But admitting it and talking about it surely is a sensible approach.Perhaps time and age will bring
you peace and acceptance of this most certain of certainties.
I really hope you will continue to post here
Love
Obed

Hi Obed. I will post so long as my life energy doesn’t retire! Who knows when that will be. Thank you for your comments.
I have thought i have been close to death in the past, went to the hospital to get checked and turned out there was nothing wrong with me etc. So i already know what acceptance of death is like to a certain extent. But death is not a problem to me – i fear pain more than death. I have been having aches and pains in my body that don’t seem to want to go away and i have been feeling depressed. I cannot reconcile these things with a loving creator God, and yet there are many things in life that cannot refute the existence of anomalous experiences. I simply do not know anything about these things, and i am pained by that. I wish it didn’t have to be like a conspiracy.

David,
I agree with Obed and hope you continue to comment here, surely its good to have a variety of opinions?
Maybe fear of the unknown and death could be a strong impetus to keep on seeking to find the truth? Face our fears and we become stronger and btw I face my fear every time I post a comment here 🙂

Dear David,
This answer you may very well like to file away as B.S.
When I feel pain I feel it is the underlying reality or if you like god which is expressing its
own deep pain through me.By me accepting and facing this pain I feel I am helping this reality to come to terms with its pain.I suppose it is away of dissociating from the pain and seeing it in a positive light.
In a side I see a great tension in an underlying reality which though may be a power of love it has
within it a terrible angst which by necessity it
expresses through us and the universe in which we live.By trying to endure and overcome the sometimes
incredible horrors of life I feel I am helping this underlying reality and at the same time help myself and others in this world.We are all connected and those people of goodness and strength
who endure allow for this strength to flow to all of us who may be in pain and suffer.
I hope this may be of some help to you.
Kind regards
Obed

Dear All who may read my last post,
What I wrote is a psycological model that I came up
with in order to have some way of coping with pain and grief.It is not meant to be anything more than that.

Hi ,
Let me say what i have to say with out beating around the bush , There is light and sound you can hear within the center of the two eyes or the third eye (between the 2 eye brows) .
When you finally calm you mind down and eliminate your desires and raise your awareness behind the eyes (the place where your thoughts generate , your mind ) . Light does appear and with further practice sound is heard .
To go even further , these same sounds are present even when you have angry moments , happy moments and other emotions . with further practice you will be able to hear the sounds even when you do have the emotions …
Now , the problem is getting to the point where these light and sound energies exist. No easy task , from complete blackness to denial to more denail then finally a glimps of a tiny dot of light for 2 a sec appears …
That one dot of light energies you and you try harder meditating , but the light does not appear again you think it was just your mind playing tricks , you give up and then enter again because you did see a dot of light .
This is the process many of us have been through and are still going through . Even see light and hearing the sound everytime we close our eyes , but we want more we want to be one with our creater our father GOD …
I am not a Radha Soami but there teachings have truth in them . I am a Sikh , but the teachings of Radha soami helped me understand the sikh scripture better . I feel more relaxed and still do the Jap ji sahib but i have added meditaton to the process because it energies the soul ….

I am amazed at the sheer ignorance of so many of the criticisms on this blog-site about the philosophy of Sant Mat taught by RadhaSoami Satsang Beas. One particularly arrogant idiot wrote a very long essay on this site full of criticisms including what he sees as a decline in the messages given by the the present Guru Gurinder Singh Ji – he refers to it as Sant Mat 2.0 as though this is some software which will undergo evolution.
Simply put, the Sant Mat philosophy including the satsangs of Baha Gurinder Singh Ji, teach the same eternal teachings of Jesus found in the gospels, which (although few people would agree) are exactly what Socrates taught and what is at the core of ancient Hindu and Sikh teachings as well. Basically that we are living in a lower material/animal/carnal world, and are afflicted with qualities/technologies that are required to enable us to function in this carnal world – namely vanity (especially evident from the essay of the idiot referred to above), greed, lust, anger, and attachment or love for the things of this world. Jesus described this as ‘build not your treasure in this world of moth, rust and corruption’…but in the eternal (unseen) world of spirit from which matter descended. Socrates (read Phaedo) said the same things – that we in the carnal world do not know ‘true beauty’ – which is the soul – and which can only be discovered by training and tuning in with the mind’s eye. One of the key teachings of Sant Mat is that we have been living in carnal bodies for aeons….and therefore pulling our minds out of carnality will take all our will, effort, sincerity and persistence. Plus humility – as Jesus put it – whosoever exalts himself will be humbled, and vice versa. I have been going to satsangs and visited the Dera at NO COST several times, and no one has ever obliged me to do any seva or make any financial payment. People who are performing labor over there are not ‘serfs’ – they are doing it voluntarily and out of love, and humility. Yes they are not all perfect…. but the vast majority of the sevadars in any RSSB location are vastly more humble than the arrogant idiot who thinks salvation is something that should be served up like a dish in a restaurant. No- dumbass – it is the hardest thing of all – and appropriately so – since the objective is to be rid forever of carnal existence and to find the Supreme Being…. so if it means 30 years or 4 lifetimes or more – that is a small price to pay….
One of the reasons intellectual fools like the one I have criticised in this message find fault with Sant Mat is that their so-called intelligence gives them VANITY….. Read ANY SCRIPTURE and it will say vanity must be erased to find God. That is what Babaji and Jesus meant when they said one must become like a child – i.e. rid oneself of the animal ‘cunning’ that we are so proud of having acquired, to be successful in this world – the so-called ‘street smarts’. Street smarts or book learning may be valuable for success in the material/carnal world, but it is a liability in the spiritual quest. As Jesus put it – No man can follow 2 masters – it is either God or money.
That is why simple, uneducated, even illiterate people find this path enchanting – because their hearts are in the right place. It is the meek who will inherit heaven, not the arrogant. When one is primarily interested in finding fault with the Master, or looking for seeming inconsistencies in his message, one is starting off with Vanity, and one is guaranteed to fail. I will just give one example. It is correct that former RSSB Masters said if an initiate faithfully performs the prescribed meditation, salvation will occur inside of 4 lifetimes. And Babaji has said something a little contradictory… Instead of arrogantly attacking Babaji for this seeming inconsistency, one ought perhaps to think a little about why he made it. Too many people take Sant Mat for granted, and constantly complain at Q&A sessions about how meditation is too difficult and so on, and think simply because they are initiated they are already ‘saved’, to borrow a phrase from Christianity. So what Babaji is trying to tell them is that the guarantee of 4 lifetimes is only if the initiate performs his/her share of the bargain….not otherwise. Thus if the initiate does not perform meditation with utmost sincerity, why should he/she be entitled to a free ride within 4 lifetimes? If they do not perform the meditation in this lifetime, what makes them think they would do so in the next 3 lifetimes..? This is no inconsistency but an explanation of the terms and conditions that the guarantee came with. A simple humble person would understand that. But not an arrogant ass full of himself/herself. Alternatively, even the former Master CharanSingh Ji in one satsang talked about some initiates who were particularly blessed with love, and their love could potentially make even meditation unnecessary. An arrogant person could call this an inconsistency too, and they would again be wrong. Every satsang says the relationship between a soul and God is Love. That is why Jesus’ first commandment was “Love thy God with all thy heart and mind and soul’… The purpose of meditation itself is not to hear ‘bell sounds’ or astral travel, or other visions – they may happen, but the main object is to build that love with God, through the Master/Messiah….. so that the union of the soul with God takes place.
I have used language (idiot, dumbass etc.) that Babaji would neither use nor approve of. But that is because I was offended by the ignorance and arrogance of the people on this site who misinterpret and misrepresent the teachings of Sant Mat, and show an utter lack of gratitude for the gifts given freely by the Masters of RSSB.

Hi Harinder,
why be offended? Do you think the words of the said “idiot” actually hurt anything? Why give them any power at all? IMO, The power of the idiot’s words comes from you–who gives them energy by reacting in such an energized way.

“The purpose of meditation itself is not to hear ‘bell sounds’ or astral travel, or other visions – they may happen, but the main object is to build that love with God, through the Master/Messiah….. so that the union of the soul with God takes place.”
—When the “bell sounds” and “astral travelings” do happen, when they actually do happen, is this a non-conceptual non-mental activity?
—This “building of love with God” through meditation, is this a conceptual mental activity? If so, why is meditation any particularly unique method to accomplish such love?
—When God receives this Love, what does he/she do with it? Does God suffer from the lack of love?
—Has anyone ever experienced the “union” of the soul with God? Would love to read more on this event.
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

Rog,
— Why do you ask so many questions?
— Do you have any answers?
— If not, why not?
Best Wishes
George

Harinder, I’m the person who wrote the post you refer to about Sant Mat 2.0. See:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2006/01/sant_mat_versio
Thank you for coming up with some colorful language to describe myself: “arrogant idiot,” “dumbass,” “intellectual fool.” You reminded me of my self-description on my Twitter page, so we’re in agreement on that point. See (on right side):
http://twitter.com/oregonbrian
That said, I re-read the Sant Mat 2.0 post and it sounds fine to me. I guess you disagree that the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, has a different style than his predecessor, Charan Singh. That’s fine. What would blogging be without disagreements? We’d have nothing to talk about.
I respect your commitment to Sant Mat 1.0, including a belief that if an initiate meditates for 2.5 hours a day for four lifetimes, salvation is assured. My main question is: how do you know this? How can you be sure that this is true?
Christians assure me that if I believe in Jesus, I’ll be saved in this very lifetime. That sounds like a better deal — especially since I don’t have to do all of the meditation. Why should I believe you rather than them? Or you rather than what Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and members of other religions believe?
Lastly, whenever I am insulted by a true believer in some faith, whether it be Sant Mat or some other religion, I think to myself: “Gosh, here I am, churchless, yet I’m not nearly as angry; I don’t dismiss other people’s ideas to the same degree; I don’t call other people names in the same fashion.”
Yet supposedly I’m the arrogant one, and the guy insulting me is the humble godly one. That confuses me. But since I’m a fool, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that I’m confused so easily.

Dear Harinder,
On the last page of “Legacy of Love”.It is written
in Charan Singh’s own hand writing the following
“May your love of The Form culminate in the Love of the Formless”
I humbly suggest study these lines very hard.In my
opinion they contain what the teachings of sant mat
are all about.For me they contained a secret that took many years to discover and it required from me the complete abandonment of the traditional
teachings of santmat.
All the best
Obed.

I am pleased to respond as best as I know, Roger, to your questions. Actually if you read my message again, and carefully, I have already answered them. Our minds are part of the software that enables our bodies (the hardware) to function in this creation – by keeping us enthralled with the things of this world – food, sex, movies, sports, tech toys, relating to others – well or poorly, earning a living, etc. etc. etc.
Meditation is the effort to reverse the natural tendency of the mind towards matter. By turning inwards with the help of a Messiah, it slowly gains control over its natural tendency, so that it comes to “know itself’ int he true Socratic meaning of ‘Know Thyself’. We are not just bodies and minds – our most highest essence is soul. But soul is untraceable in this world without intense meditation. You are using intellectual concepts like conceptual and non-conceptual. Meditation is trying to truly understand who and what we are. Are we just animals or ants busily serving other interests, or is it possible to discover where we came from, how we got here, and how we can get back home…?
This is the purpose of human life, as opposed to the life of non-human creatures -insects, animals, etc…. Now you are trying to get me to answer the deepest questions of life with 2 or 3 superficial questions…. but this is the greatest knowledge and wisdom of all, so why should it come easily? How long did it take you to learn your profession, or get a degree?
Has anyone experienced this union with God? Scripture says yes – but scripture also warns that it comes only to a few – to the most dedicated, sincere and humble. How many people have climbed Mount Everest? Can everyone do it? So the union with God which is incomparably more difficult, is surely something that will not happen easily. But there is one thing we do control – our effort and our sincerity. If we keep that up, sooner or later – and it could be 4 lifetimes even with the best of effort – one’s efforts could be granted.
Do you have a guarantee of success in any field of human endeavor? Whether career, marriage, politics or sport – are you sure you can win? The possibility of failure exists in everything we do. But still we do it, don’t we? So how is it that people think they will get the ultimate goal of life without serious effort, ‘tests’, and failures?
Why does God need love? That is God’s natural state, Its Highest quality. It is the natural relationship between a soul – which has been described by Persian mystics as a drop of the Ocean that is God – and God. God separated us from Itself (It is Spirit – beyond time and space and therefore neither male nor female – these are conditions of matter) when It created the incomprehensibly vast and unending universes (read cosmology – Harvard and Cambridge scientists are convinced that multiple universes exist and also higher dimensions – 10 or more)….. and all religions in their essence are Sant Mat – leading some of the separated souls (the chosen few) back to God. Why did the Force do this? It could, and did…. Don’t you like to use the powers you have been given….
To understand these things, you need humility, dedication, a willingness to loving submit to the guidance of a True Master. As you meditate, if your heart is sincere, things will slowly start to be revealed to you. More than that, you will experience the Master in your life, and invisibly communicate with him, and see how he guides your life. Some of that guidance will be the administration of pain for the settlement of karmic accounts, but some of it will also be protections that you will notice, as long as you are humble.
Those people who write letters to the Dera have not even heard the satsangs. Master Charan Singh Ji said often in his discourses – don’t ask for things – God already knows what you need. Ask only for God. And be patient – destiny must be endured as there are reasons for it. But if we keep the faith sooner or later and it may be later than this lifetime, it will be rewarded. This life is like a dream that we will one day awaken from. Doing one’s meditation and keeping the faith actually does lighten the load.
Love is the highest thing we have. But the loves we meet in this world are the selfish kind, and the temporal kind. This is one jewel – True and Eternal Love – that God has selfishly kept for Itself. But what’s wrong with that? Think of it as the greatest Treasure Hunt in existence.
As for the bell sounds and visions, these are only meant to provide support for meditation – to keep us motivated. But they are not given to everyone because few people meditate sincerely. Master Charan Singh used to say if one is lost in a forest at night, a sound or a light could guide us to other people. Sounds and visions in meditation serve a similar function. But they are not the goal – the goal is to develop the Love.
Hope this helps. Before you post further questions though, please carefully read through and reflect on the 2 messages I have left on this blog.
Best regards.

Harinder,
Thanks for your reply,
A few statements for analysis;
“As for the bell sounds and visions, these are only meant to provide support for meditation – to keep us motivated. But they are not given to everyone because few people meditate sincerely.”
—Bell sounds and Visions are meant only for motivational support? This is new information for me. But, what if a “bell” sound is not very motivating? Are other sounds available, for motivation?
—So, out of the tens of thousands of RSSB initiates, only a few meditate sincerely? Are you sure?
“Master Charan Singh used to say if one is lost in a forest at night, a sound or a light could guide us to other people.”
—But One can get lost in the forest during the day too. Can Satan create these sounds and visions, and direct One to it too? What would stop Satan from recreating a “bell” like sound? One could get directed in the wrong direction. Just an example, no information on a Satan.
“Meditation is the effort to reverse the natural tendency of the mind towards matter. By turning inwards with the help of a Messiah, it slowly gains control over its natural tendency, so that it comes to “know itself’ int he true Socratic meaning of ‘Know Thyself’.”
—So, this meditation “effort” reverses natural tendencies of the mind towards matter? However, as you stated, only a few meditate sincerely. Therefore, the many, majority of RSSB initiates are locked into these natural tendencies?
Finally, Harinder, do you know which life cycle(possible total of 4), you are currently in? The initiation age requirement of 24, seems odd, for One in their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cycle?
Anyway, thanks for your reply,
Roger

To: Harinder Jadwani
First off, to be quite honest, I am even more amazed at your ignorance regarding the import of the info and criticisms on this blog-site about the philosophy of Sant Mat and about its guru-cult the RSSB.
Furthermore, I am one of those critics that you have referred to as “idiot”, “dumbass”, and “fool”. I also have been well acquainted with RS and the teachings of Sant Mat for many decades, and so are others. So there is no need for you to engage in such lengthy preaching of Sant Mat here. If you disagree with the critics of Sant Mat, then you should present some reasonable and substantial arguements which defeat their criticisms. You have not done that. All you have done so far is to preach RS belief system dogma. You have offered nothing to counter the numerous criticisms that have been leveled against against Sant Mat and the RS organization and feudalistic guru-cult.
Furthermore, I disagree with you on many of your points:
I disagree with your claim that “the Sant Mat philosophy including the satsangs of Baha Gurinder Singh Ji, teach the same eternal teachings of Jesus found in the gospels […] and what is at the core of ancient Hindu and Sikh teachings as well.”.
I disagree with your claim that: “we are living in a lower material/animal/carnal world, and are afflicted”
I disagree with your claim that: “we in the carnal world do not know ‘true beauty’ – which is the soul”
I disagree with your assertion that: “we have been living in carnal bodies for aeons….and therefore pulling our minds out of carnality will take all our will, effort, sincerity and persistence.”
I disagree with your claim that: “the Dera […] People who are performing labor over there are not ‘serfs’ – they are doing it voluntarily”
I disagree with your assertion that: “the arrogant idiot who thinks salvation is something that should be served up like a dish in a restaurant.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “the objective is to be rid forever of carnal existence and to find the Supreme Being… so if it means 30 years or 4 lifetimes or more – that is a small price to pay.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “vanity must be erased to find God.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “Jesus meant when they said one must become like a child”
I disagree with your assertion that: “That is why simple, uneducated, even illiterate people find this path enchanting”
I disagree with your assertion that: “It is the meek who will inherit heaven, not the arrogant.”
I disagree with your claim that: “one is primarily interested in finding fault with the Master, or looking for seeming inconsistencies in his message”
I disagree with your claim that: “It is correct that […] if an initiate faithfully performs the prescribed meditation, salvation will occur inside of 4 lifetimes.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “what Babaji is trying to tell them is that the guarantee of 4 lifetimes is only if the initiate performs his/her share of the bargain”
I disagree with your assertion that: “Every satsang says the relationship between a soul and God is Love.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “The purpose of meditation itself is not to hear ‘bell sounds’ or astral travel, or other visions – they may happen, but the main object is to build that love with God, through the Master/Messiah.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “the union of the soul with God takes place”
I disagree with your assertion that: “the ignorance and arrogance of the people on this site who misinterpret and misrepresent the teachings of Sant Mat”
I disagree with your claim that: “the gifts given freely by the Masters of RSSB”
I disagree with your assertion that: “Our minds […] keeping us enthralled with the things of this world – food, sex, movies, sports, tech toys, relating to others – well or poorly, earning a living, etc”
I disagree with your assertion that: “Meditation is the effort to reverse the natural tendency of the mind towards matter.”
I disagree with your belief that: “by turning inwards with the help of a Messiah it slowly gains control over its natural tendency”
I disagree with your assertion that: “We are not just bodies and minds – our most highest essence is soul.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “soul is untraceable in this world without intense meditation”
I disagree with your claim that: “Meditation [specifically sant mat type meditation] is trying to truly understand who and what we are.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “to discover where we came from, how we got here, and how we can get back home. […] This is the purpose of human life”
I disagree with your assumption that: “Has anyone experienced this union with God? […] yes – but […] it comes only to a few”
I disagree with your assertion that: “So the union with God which is incomparably more difficult, is surely something that will not happen easily.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “there is one thing we do control”
I disagree with your assertion that: “God separated us from Itself […] when It created the incomprehensibly vast and unending universes”
I disagree with your claim that: “all religions in their essence are Sant Mat – leading some of the separated souls (the chosen few) back to God.”
I absolutely disagree with your assertion that: “To understand these things, you need humility, dedication, a willingness to loving submit to the guidance of a True Master.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “you will experience the Master in your life, and invisibly communicate with him, and see how he guides your life.”
I disagree with your belief that: “that guidance will be the administration of pain for the settlement of karmic accounts, but some of it will also be protections”
I disagree with your assertion that: “don’t ask for things – God already knows what you need. Ask only for God.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “destiny must be endured as there are reasons for it.”
I disagree with your claim that: “if we keep the faith sooner or later and it may be later than this lifetime, it will be rewarded.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “Doing one’s meditation and keeping the faith actually does lighten the load.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “True and Eternal Love – that God has selfishly kept for Itself.”
I deeply disagree with your assertion that: “the bell sounds and visions, these are only meant to provide support for meditation – to keep us motivated.”
I disagree with your assertion that: “not given to everyone because few people meditate sincerely.”
And finally, I much disagree with your assertion that: “Sounds and visions in meditation serve a similar function. […] they are not the goal – the goal is to develop the Love.”
In conclusion, it is fairly obvious to see as shown by all of Mr Harinder Jadwani’s claims and assertions and beliefs, that he really has nothing of any substance to offer (to disprove the critics and their criticisms of RS that he describes as “idiot” and “fool”), other than his parroting of more and more Sant Mat religious doctine, dogma and blind faith in a supposed messiah.
Harinder Jadwani, you need to wake up to reality and look at the facts. And fyi, the best case against Sant Mat dogma and RS guru-cultism is actually people like YOU Harinder. You do a far better job at revealing much about what is wrong with the RS cult, than many dozens of critics and heaps of criticism could ever do.
As Brian so rightly said:
“Why should I believe you rather than them?
“I’m not nearly as angry; I don’t dismiss other people’s ideas to the same degree; I don’t call other people names in the same fashion”
“yet supposedly I’m the arrogant one, and the guy insulting me is the humble godly one”.
— So Harinder, what’s it to you if I am critical of Sant Mat and the RS cult? What’s it to you if I don’t agree with your dogma? What’s it to you if I don’t believe in your pseudo mysticism and “Messiah” worship? What’s it to you if other people don’t believe what you believe?
It seems to me that it is YOU who isthe “idiot”, that YOU who is the “dumbass”, and that YOU who is the narrow-minded “fool”… and not people like Brian or myself or others who have excercised intelligent, rational, sober, and critical thinking, rather than blind submission to some authoritarian guru-cult.

tAo,
confucious say:
When 1st person call you asshole he/she probably wrong.
When 2nd person call you asshole it probably coincidence.
But when everyone call you asshole it time to blow nose and check for skidmark.
You lambaste poor Harinder by saying: “If you disagree with the critics of Sant Mat, then you should present some reasonable and substantial arguements which defeat their criticisms…” – shortly before listing a page of your unsubstantiated disagreements.
Are you in fact a ‘hypocrytitical asshole’?

Robby, Sant mat meditation did not energize me.
George, you’re in a tAo bashing groove.

yes catherine, i must stop, apologies.

Thank you George for pointing out the obvious fallacies in tA0’s response.
tA0 – whatever your reasons for the strange mix of lower and uppercase – please note the following:
1. did you notice how many times your response contained the word “I’? I disagree about this, about that, etc. That is VANITY. Don’t take my word for it – the Old and New Testament, the Hindu scriptures (eg. Gita) and the Sikh Granth are among the scriptures that mention vanity as a key obstacle to God-realization.
2. Your are fully entitled to believe whatever you wish. No one is forcing Sant Mat on you. I was merely responding to what I saw as blatant misinterpretations and misrepresentations of Sant Mat.
3. There is a reason Jesus said “It is forbidden to cast pearls before swine”. That is because swine prefer to roll around in excrement, and would not know a pearl’s value.
Enough said.

Response to Brian’s response to my post:
Hello Brian:
1. You’re absolutely right my ‘colorful language’ was inappropriate, and that my anger was ‘ungodly’. But I acknowledged this in my message – read it again and see.
2. A difference in style is not a difference in substance. Is that too hard for you to understand?
3. I agree you have an absolute right to NOT believe in Sant Mat. I never said you had any obligation to. What I said is you have no right to misrepresent the beliefs of Sant Mat – which you have, quite blatantly. As for me and millions like me, I and they have an absolute right to believe in Sant Mat (or anything else).
4. Christians offering you a ‘better deal’? Go for it…. who is stopping you? If you like Islam or Hinduism better or any of the old or new religions, go for any of them – no one is stopping you. Just don’t spread misinformation about Sant Mat, which you obviously don’t respect or understand.
Have a good life.

Harinder — interesting how you can be so sure that I don’t understand Sant Mat. Let’s see…
— I diligently practiced Sant Mat meditation and followed the vows (pretty nearly to the letter) for about 35 years.
— I wrote three books under the auspices of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, one of which was distributed by RSSB, one of which was published by RSSB, and one of which was read and reviewed extensively by RSSB sevadars (and was requested to be written by the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh).
— Up to a few years ago I’d read every page of every book published by RSSB, and took extensive notes on the fundamental principles and beliefs of Sant Mat (which I still refer to occasionally).
— I gave satsangs regularly for several decades, including some at regional or national satsang weekends.
During all of this, nobody ever said that I didn’t understand Sant Mat. In fact, quite the opposite. My understanding hasn’t changed now. I just have a broader perspective, more wisdom, and can see how Sant Mat fits into a wider picture of reality.
I respect Sant Mat. I understand Sant Mat. I simply respect truth more than any single belief system. I joined the RSSB organization to come closer to truth, not to pledge my loyalty to an organization forever. If God exists, I’m pretty sure he/she/it applauds truth-seeking much more than sticking with a religious organization.

Response to Obed’s response to my post:
Thanks for your comment. It is unfortunate that you abandoned a priceless philosophy due to a failure to grasp it. Your veiled criticism of Master CharanSingh Ji’s statement shows how little you know about the Sant Mat teachings.
Your refer to “May your love of The Form culminate in the Love of the Formless”, (which I have not checked but will accept as accurate), and imply the philosophy is false and self-contradictory (form leading to formless). But this is a perfect example of how the intellect can blind people to spiritual matters, and why Masters including Jesus insist that one has to become like a child to have spiritual growth.
Your ‘intellectual’ brain finds a seeming error in the logic of Master CharanSingh’s statement, but the truth is you don’t seem to know even the basics of Sant Mat. What the Master says in this pithy phrase is that by meditating on the ‘form’ of the Master, one can one day become one with the ‘Formless’.
To you this is meaningless, because you are too lazy to even attempt to understand the most basic Sant Mat teachings. Simply put, what Master means here is that God is Formless – being pure power – form is a limitation of our material world of time and space. But we cannot meditate on the Formless. We have to start by meditate on form, because that is what our mind can grasp. Formless does not mean nothing – au contraire it means the Everything behind what we see around us. Once an initiate walks on this path and meditates long enough to overcome the lower tendencies of the mind towards matter, and also burns off the karma of untold millions of lifetimes, he/she mystically will be brought in contact with the Formless One.
There is an analogy in the ‘scientific’ world I have mentioned in an earlier post. Cosmologists at Harvard, Cambridge and so on – the so-called string-theorists – believe that the universe exists in dimensions as high as 10 and possibly 26, but they cannot explain how. That’s because our minds are designed to function in a 4-dimensional world – 3 of space and 1 of time. In your way of thinking, all these scientists would also be utter fools, wouldn’t they?
There is no contradiction here. Only the failure of a lazy person who has fallen victim to the trickery of his own mind/intellect.
You refer to:

Response to Catherine’s comment: Robby, Sant mat meditation did not energize me.
Catherine – when one plants a seed somewhere – does it bear fruit right away? Does a tree grow overnight?
You must also be aware of Jesus’ comment about seeds falling in different types of soil – rock bearing no fruit, whereas fertile soils bearing fruit quickly (not a precise quote, but you get the idea?)..
Best regards.
Harinder.

Response to Brian’s latest response:
1. It is your absolute right to step away from the path if it does not satisfy you. Babaji has never said anything to the contrary.
2. May I know which book was published by RSSB that you wrote?
3. Practising a faith to the letter does not mean one has grasped the spirit. It is the spirit that quickeneth…. but I am using the word as a pun here. The most important and essential element required is not the writing of books, giving of satsangs, or holding high positions within the RSSB organization – these may be harmful by boosting one’s vanity, but to what degree one has surrendered to the Will of the Master. As Jesus said ‘Thy Will be done’. Islam also means surrender to God. The Hindu texts also prescribe ‘bhakti’ or devotion.
But they also prescribe patience….to demand that one’s prayers or wishes including for internal darshan (whole body being full of light) be granted according to one’s own schedule is also a failure to accept the Will. It is God who decides when and if one will be enlightened, not a human being. You gave up after 35 years, but the promise given is for 4 lifetimes….. you gave up long before that… this was a failure of your faith, not a failure of Sant Mat.
In many satsangs it has been said, even if you do not think you are making progress, keep up your effort. Your effort is being recorded by the Master, but perhaps your load of karma is a big one and needs even longer to be worked out.
Knowing every word of the RSSB teachings and books does not mean one has imbibed them. Scripture is full of warnings about the vanity of priests who may know the letter of the scripture, but whose hearts have not become holy…. Jesus was crucified because he challenged the hypocrisies of the priests of his time.
As you claim to know the teachings of Sant Mat, are you not aware of Kabir’s prescription that the 2.5 letters that spell love in Hindi are worth more than all the holy books in the world? Or of Guru Gobind’s statement that only those who have Loved have found God. Or Jesus’ first commandment to Love thy God.
Regards.

Harinder, the book was “Life is Fair.” If I may make a suggestion…
Your comments are basically along the lines of, “Believe in Sant Mat because this is what Sant Mat teaches.” This is like a Christian saying, “Believe in Jesus because the Bible says so.”
Well, of course it does. Just as Buddhists point to Buddhist scriptures, Muslims to the Koran, and so on. You won’t convince anybody here by just making circular arguments.
Also, I can tell you for a fact that there are many different ways Sant Mat initiates view this spiritual path. You favor a traditional “Indian” view — which isn’t limited to people from India, of course.
You denigrate anyone who views mysticism from a different perspective. Yet I’m sure you’re aware that the current RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh, says “Sant Mat is not the only way.”
So I’m wondering why you keep on saying that unless someone agrees with your version of Sant Mat, they aren’t on a genuine spiritual path.

Sorry to butt in here. The RS book Brian wrote is “Life is Fair”.
Harinder Jadwani said:”…but the promise given is for 4 lifetimes….. you gave up long before that… this was a failure of your faith, not a failure of Sant Mat.”
–How do you know what ‘lifetime’ Brian is on? Where is the evidence of these lifetimes? If Brian quit RS, wouldn’t that be in the master’s hands if he is pulling all the strings anyway? Charan Singh once said, “Not even a leaf moves without His will.” So why be concerned?
HJ wrote: “In many satsangs it has been said, even if you do not think you are making progress, keep up your effort. Your effort is being recorded by the Master, but perhaps your load of karma is a big one and needs even longer to be worked out.”
–How do you know the master does this or is capable of it? Have you ever wondered how the master keeps track of millions of disciples’ efforts and karmas?
What if you pass death’s door and discover that he had no power at all?
I don’t really expect answers to these questions and I think I know what you would say if you did attempt to answer them. Just something for you to ponder if you like.
I was initiated in 1970 by Charan and quit all involvement with RS in the 90’s. I have been to the dera twice (1974 & 1984), meditated a lot, attended many satsangs, did seva, and read all the books. I know the drill, so no need to repeat it for my benefit.

Harinder,
What deeply annoys me about your posts is how you keep calling Brian “vain.” Vain, in my opinion, is someone who feels they have the right to intrude on someone else’s path because they think they are right and the other wrong. If you approached Brian with curiosity about the nuances of his life journey, even expressing your sadness that he has distanced himself from something you obviously care about, I would be much more open to listening to you….but right now, your “hardass” tone and accusatory implications, i.e. assuming you understand Sant Mat better than Brian, and it is your right to point out his “failures,” sounds, if nothing else, vain.

To: Harinder Jadwani
First, fyi, George has not pointed out any such “fallacies” in my comments. If you see “fallacies”, then be specific and say exactly what (and where) they are. You RS believers are so typical. You beat around the bush vaguely, but never come up with any substance. So put-up or shut-up.
“tA0 […] please note the following:
1. did you notice how many times your response contained the word “I’? I disagree about this, about that, etc. That is VANITY.”
— No, you stupid dumbass, the use of “I” is NOT “vanity” in any way whatsoever. It is simply proper use of the english grammer and language.
“the Old and New Testament, the Hindu scriptures (eg. Gita) and the Sikh Granth are among the scriptures”
— I don’t give a damn about your supposed “scriptures”. I have read and studied them all, and they don’t have anything to do with, or say that using the pronoun “I” is vanity. And you’re truly an idiot if you think using the term “I” automatically indicates vanity. Your fussing about the use of “I” is ridiculous and is blatant pseudo-spirituality.
“vanity as a key obstacle to God-realization”
— But you see, I don’t believe in your notion of “God-realization”. So don’t impose your religious crap and beliefs on me. And what do you know about “realization” anyway?
“No one is forcing Sant Mat”
— Incorrect. YOU are “forcing Sant Mat”. YOU are imposing and preaching your rigid Santmat doctrine and beliefs upon others here. Why don’t you open your mind and maybe find out what others here have to share?
“I was merely responding to what I saw as blatant misinterpretations and misrepresentations of Sant Mat.”
— No one is “misrepresenting” Santmat here. There are many people here (including myself) who know a great deal about Santmat. No one is misinterpreting. If you have some specific instance, then show what that is.
“There is a reason Jesus said “It is forbidden to cast pearls before swine”. That is because swine prefer to roll around in excrement, and would not know a pearl’s value.”
— So you are implying that other long time Santmat initiates here are “swine” who “roll around in excrement, and would not know a pearl’s value”??? I think you don’t have a clue as to who or what you are talking about. And btw, in case you don’t know, your supposed “Jesus” is a fictional character, a myth. So don’t think you are being smart by quoting a fictional Jesus.
[You said to Brian]: “I said is you have no right to misrepresent the beliefs of Sant Mat – which you have, quite blatantly.”
— You are absolutely wrong and incorrect. Brian has NOT misrepresented Santmat at all. Brian happens to be very well versed and experienced in Santmat, and so am I, and so are others. So don’t assume or say otherwise.
“Just don’t spread misinformation about Sant Mat, which you obviously don’t respect or understand.”
— Now this comment is even worse. You have no basis whatsoever to say that others here “don’t respect or understand” Santmat. I dare say there are people here who understand far more about Santmat than you do.
[To Obed]: “It is unfortunate that you abandoned a priceless philosophy due to a failure to grasp it. […] how little you know about the Sant Mat teachings.” ”
— You don’t know that Obed has “failed to grasp” anything. You are just another condescendingly self-righteous RS fundamentalist. And Obed is way smarter and wiser than you are.
“this is a perfect example of how […] Masters including Jesus insist that one has to become like a child to have spiritual growth.”
— That is absolute bullshit. BULLSHIT. Jesus is a myth, and spiritual growth most definitley does NOT result from being childish or being “like a child”. This kind of rhetoric is pseudo-spiritual nonsense.
“by meditating on the ‘form’ of the Master, one can one day become one with the ‘Formless’.”
— That too is a bogus doctrine and idea. There is no such “become one” with anything.
[To Obed]: “you are too lazy to even attempt to understand the most basic Sant Mat teachings.”
— You are a stupid asshole Harinder. Obed understands Santmat teachings quite well enough.
“we cannot meditate on the Formless.”
— You do not know that.
“Once an initiate walks on this path and meditates long enough to overcome the lower tendencies of the mind towards matter, and also burns off the karma of untold millions of lifetimes, he/she mystically will be brought in contact with the Formless One.”
— That belief is nothing more than obvious Santmat dogma… a web of unfounded assumptions.
[To Brian]:
“The most important and essential element required is […] to what degree one has surrendered to the Will of the Master.”
— This too is a false doctrine. No such surrender is needed or required. And there is no “Will of the Master” either. Who and where is this so-called “Master”?
“It is God who decides when and if one will be enlightened, not a human being.”
— “God” is simply an idea in your mind. There is no such “God who decides”. And there is no such “enlightened” either. No one is “enlightened”. Enlightenment is a myth.
“You gave up after 35 years, but the promise given is for 4 lifetimes….. you gave up long before that… this was a failure of your faith, not a failure of Sant Mat.”
— NO, this is a “failure” of YOU to understand that waiting and “faith” for “4 lifetimes” is utter bullshit. No truly intelligent person will ever accept such absurd fictitious nonsense – dogma.
“Your effort is being recorded by the Master, but perhaps your load of karma is a big one and needs even longer to be worked out.”
— This also is ridiculous nonsense dogma.
“Scripture is full of warnings about the vanity of priests who may know the letter of the scripture, but whose hearts have not become holy”
— Then why do YOU preach so much Santmat dogma?
“Jesus was crucified because…”
— Wake up Harinder… Jesus is just a contrived myth.
Kabir’s prescription that the 2.5 letters that spell love in Hindi are worth more than all the holy books in the world? Or of Guru Gobind’s statement that only those who have Loved have found God. Or Jesus’ first commandment to Love thy God.”
— This is merely more lame pseudo-spiritual rhetoric.
And finally, as Brian so rightly observed when he said: “I’m wondering why you keep on saying that unless someone agrees with your version of Sant Mat, they aren’t on a genuine spiritual path.”
— Btw Harinder, why are YOU VIOLATING the current RS masters formal published prohibition against all intiates posting, preaching, discussing, or debating anything about Sant Mat on the internet??? Are you not aware of this?… Do you not respect that this internet prohibition IS “the master’s will”??? By preaching Santmat here, you are completely disregarding his will and his instructions.
So that makes you a Santmat hypocrite… You claim to be a devoted follower of Santmat and surrendered the master’s will, but yet you turn round and ignore and violate his will.
So Harinder, if you are going to be talking the talk, then you’d better start walking the walk.

Dear Harinder,
I love you too.
Love
Obed

Dear tAo,
Thank you for your kind words.They are truly appreciated.
Enjoy your biking and please look after yourself the roads are not always the safest places.
With kindnest and affection
Obed

Obed, a person can say or write something apparently harshly but can infact be acting in kindness. On the other hand, while being sweet and polite they can cut deeply.
Hari, the seed was planted when I was born to my knowledge. It continues to grow to my knowledge.

tAo gets plenty of tender loving care on the road and in the hotels and off-ramps along the way. I don’t think having auntie worrying at home is a necessary part of a biker’s lifestyle.

Dear Catherine,
I get your points.From your perspective I am sure you are right.Still I dont mind being a kindly old “auntie”.I have this weakness of trying to be kind and nice and I have not as yet been able to get over it.It is part of my package.I accept it and give it love.While at the same time being fully aware it is not me.So please dont mind if I give
back to you kindness and repect.It really doesnt cost me much in fact I take great joy in being nice
and a bit of an old “auntie”.
Have a good laugh and enjoy.
Love
Obed

tA0:
You are so obviously hostile to any scripture – your own words indicate you respect none of them – what are you doing on this forum?
You believe God does not exist, so your real agenda is to mock and insult anyone who does not agree with you, isn’t it?
The reference to pearls and swine should now be very clear – it was principally directed at you. I will not bother to argue with an unmitigated fanatic – a fundamentalist atheist.
Perhaps you believe in science as the ultimate reality since that is the usual preference of those who deny the existence of God. So here is a scientific experiment. Stick a finger in your excrement (you do produce it, don’t you?) and smell it….
Then decide whether the excrement is or is not evidence of the body being a lower animal/carnal entity. And whether it is worth spending a life ‘Knowing Thyself’ and investing in discovering whether a higher existence than this exists or not…
Goodbye.

Harinder, thanks for making your beliefs crystal clear. Why should anyone believe that God exists when there is no demonstrable evidence of this?
Don’t you understand that mysticism, including Sant Mat, isn’t based on a belief in God but on directly experiencing for oneself the nature of reality?
If you consider that spirituality is all about saying “I believe in God!” and disparaging those who say “I don’t know if God exists,” it’s pretty obvious that you haven’t understood that mysticism and meditation is about direct experience, not conceptual beliefs.

Harinder writes:
“tA0: You are so obviously hostile to any scripture – your own words indicate you respect none of them – what are you doing on this forum?”
— What am I doing? The same thing you are doing – making comments. And just where does it say that I should or must respect “scriptures”? Scriptures are merely words and ideas… and many times much superstition as well.
“You believe God does not exist, so your real agenda is to mock and insult anyone who does not agree with you, isn’t it?”
— I did not say that God “does not exist”. I said: “God is simply an idea in your mind.” But you are right that I do NOT “believe” in God, or in some idea of God that you may define as “God”. Also, it is unnecessary for me to believe in anything (including “God”). Life does not require any belief. Harinder, you are obviously a religious minded person who seeks to impose your beliefs and religious dogma upon others.
“The reference to pearls and swine should now be very clear – it was principally directed at you.”
— Which basically means that you regard me as being an ignorant PIG who has no “appreciation” for your religious dogma and mystical mumbo-jumbo. But thats YOUR loss and YOUR stupidity, not mine. You clearly haven’t got the slighetest clue as to where I am coming from. Thats because you are quite narrow-minded and dogmatic, and so you foolishly think that you are the authority on Santmat and other folks like myself are lost.
“I will not bother to argue with an unmitigated fanatic – a fundamentalist atheist.”
— Which again only proves what an stupid and ignorant fool you are… as I am not any sort of “atheist”, and I certainly am not a fundamentalist. I hold nothing with which to be fundamentalist about.
“Perhaps you believe in science as the ultimate reality since that is the usual preference of those who deny the existence of God.”
— I did not “deny the existence of God”. I simply said that “God” is merely an idea. Are you so lame-brained that you cannot see the difference? I don’t subscribe to ideas such as “ultimate reality” either.
“decide whether the excrement is or is not evidence of the body being a lower animal/carnal entity.
“whether it is worth spending a life ‘Knowing Thyself’ and investing in discovering whether a higher existence than this exists or not.”
— I don’t need to spend my life “Knowing Thyself”, or in “investing in discovering whether a higher existence than this exists”. I already know myself. I already am myself. There is nothing more that I need to gain or to know about myself. And btw, there is no other “existence”, other than existence itself. This so-called “higher existence” is just another idea.
Harinder, you think you know so much (Santmat etc)), but in reality you know so very very little. And also, you know absolutely nothing about me. You have no idea what I am about. And you come here posing as if you have all the answers, but your shallow dogma and your lack of real insight shows that you don’t.
Open up your mind and get a clue Harinder.

Response to Adam, Brian, Tucson:
Thank you for your valuable comments. Here is my response for your consideration:
1. Adam – you are absolutely right my tone is ‘hardass’ and inappropriate. You are quite right I am also afflicted with vanity, anger, and all the rest (lust, greed and attachment to matter). Everyone is – that is the human/carnal condition, and that is the fight – to overcome those tendencies. I have to fight my own tendencies to anger and vanity when I see things misrepresented. But you do see that the world we live in is full of deceit and injustice, don’t you? The American invasion of Iraq, for instance, by people calling themselves ‘born-again’ Christians..
In your response and that of Brian and Tucson, I see sincerity, decency, honesty, and in my responses my criticisms were not intended to imply I was ‘better’ than anyone else – that surely is ‘Vanity’. However the responses of tA0 for instance do strike me as unreasonable and fanatic, and therefore undeserving of further response.
2. Brian – I am NOT saying Sant Mat is the only way, nor am I selling it. I am merely trying to fight what I see as the misrepresentation of it by people who don’t seem to understand its basic tenets. In fact, it is clear to me that we are all following individual destinies – eg. being born in different countries in different religions, and so on. Everyone is free to follow what they want to, and believe what they want to.
I do believe (and you may disagree) that in its essence, Sant Mat is no different from what Jesus taught (though what Jesus taught is not what the religion of Christianity teaches), what the ancient Hindu texts say, and what the Sikh Granth says, what the Greek masters particularly Socrates taught. It is essentially the same as what the Buddha taught and what many Persian and Indian mystics taught. I am talking about the essence, not the specific words. In short I am saying it is the same wine but which may have been marketed in different bottles. But it is your absolute right to disagree.
I must ask though what you were doing in those 35 years when you performed satsangs and wrote books on a philosophy that you now say gave you no satisfaction, inner insights, or fill you with some sense of grace. Were you not simply parroting a philosphy you did not believe at heart, and perhaps never fully understood?
3. Tucson: Of course I don’t know which lifetime Brian is in, but that is irrelevant. The point is he gave up – after 35 years of what seems to me of essentially ‘faking it’ – giving satsangs and writing books on things he didn’t believe in or find satisfaction in.
As for your comment about all things being in God’s hands, including Brian’s quitting, you have put your finger on one of the age-old dilemmas – certainly not unique to Sant Mat – this question has been debated for millenia – whether there is free choice or divine Will. This is one of the deepest questions and as I have said in earlier posts, the answer is not something that can be explained in words. Just like learning a trade or profession takes a long time, discovering the secrets of existence takes our entire life, and is arguably the most important thing in life, isn’t it? An unexamined life is not worth living. One must walk on the path and be patient – God does test the patience and persistence of seekers – Heaven is not granted easily, and why should it be?
There are a couple of references from the gospels on this. One is Jesus’ statement that ‘Many be called but few be chosen”. Thus many are initiated but only those who go through the tests will be successful. From Q&A sessions you know how many initiates say they cannot meditate….and the Master’s response that they need to try harder.
A second related reference is the parable of the 10 virgins – 5 who kept their ‘lamps’ lit with the ‘oil’ of love were accepted by the Bridegroom, the other 5 who did not were rejected.
You may say this contradicts the 4-lifetime guarantee, but it does not. The guarantee is conditional on the initiate doing their part, and leaving the rest to God. If this is not satisfactory, ask yourself why you strive at anything – at your job do you know you will be promoted for sure? Are you sure your marriage will never break up or suffer infidelity? There are no unconditional guarantees in life, except death and taxes.
There is no question God holds the fat end of the stick, and fixes the rules of the game. This may seem unfair, but the flip side is that if one accepts these rules, one can be fully restored to God’s own status – that is surely more than enough compensation?
As for whether the Master has power to keep track of karmas, or meet me at death’s door – yes I know but this is what faith is. I can give you no logical reason. I know from my personal experience with the Master that he does know what I am doing, and takes actions, sometimes to punish (to correct) and sometimes to protect. I do believe he will be there at death’s door, because I know how often he has mystically protected me in this life. I am not going to go into details because these things are private and not to be revealed. You can call me a liar if you like, but thousands of other people have had similar experiences.
This does not mean that doubts and questions have not arisen. In times of crises I have expressed my grievance and even resentment (personally – mystically) – because when one loves, one has the courage to do so. But those difficult times have passed and my belief has emerged strong.
Your argument about the Master’s ability to track karma or be at death’s door is similar to the atheist’s argument – how do you know there is a God, and a Just One? Well I just know, but am not interested in providing proof to someone who does not know. They have their destiny and I have mine.
Sincerely.
Harinder Jadwani.

Addendum to my response to Adam, Brian, Tucson:
On the free will vs. destiny question – one further comment – what is in our hands is what we do – some will has been given to us…. the statement that grass cannot grow without God’s will does not mean that nothing is in our hands – what it means is that the results of our actions are in God’s hands.
God disposes, but man can propose….

Dear Catherine:
Thank you for pointing out that seemingly harsh words may be kind – it is true some of my words were harsh.
I am also delighted to know the seed is continuing to grow. May it bear the sweetest Fruit!
All the very best.
Harinder.

One more addendum to Adam, Brian, Tucson:
It seems a supreme irony to me that having written Life is Fair (which I haven’t read yet) Brian is now indirectly lamenting the unfairness of having spent 35 years in a philosophy that he now disowns….
Did you truly believe and understand what you wrote, Brian? Do you still believe it?
I can tell you the idea of karma is not just in Sant Mat or Hinduism. Jesus talked about sowing and reaping, and most Canadians (I live in Canada) do believe what goes around, comes around.
Regards.

Another reason I will comment no further on tA0 is I simply cannot better what George said:
“Confucius says….” – that was simply priceless George.
Thanks.

Dear Harinder Jadwani,
In one of your comments you said:
You must also be aware of Jesus’ comment about seeds falling in different types of soil – rock bearing no fruit, whereas fertile soils bearing fruit quickly.
Fyi in the book The Master Answers, of RSSB Beas, these are the words of Maharaj Charan Singh.
“The problem with the Bible is that nobody took notes at that time…. So many things were suppressed by the Church and by interested people. Only that much is given to us which can keep us under their hold.”
He also said that the real teachings are something very different from what is being told through the organizations and churches and temples.
Further if you wish, please try to know the abstract of the speech at the time of Gaddi Nasheem of Gurinder Singh in June 90. I hope this will help you.
Best wishes

Harinder Jadwani writes:
“you do see that the world we live in is full of deceit and injustice, don’t you? The American invasion of Iraq, for instance, by people calling themselves ‘born-again’ Christians.”
— This again shows your blindness and ignorance. The Iraq war (“invasion”) was not brought about by any such “born-again Christians”… it was entirely instigated and orchestrated by demonic satanic occultists and the super-rich global power elite… and it was just a step in a much greater plan.
“the responses of tA0 for instance do strike me as unreasonable and fanatic”
— Then please be so kind as to point out where exactly are these “unreasonable and fanatic” responses? I would have say that it is your touting of fundamentist Santmat dogma that is pretty fanatical and unreasonable.
“I am NOT saying Sant Mat is the only way”
— No that is not true… you DID say and/or imply that Santmat is the only way.
“I am merely trying to fight what I see as the misrepresentation of it by people who don’t seem to understand its basic tenets.”
— That is quite incorrect. Brian, Tucson, myself and several others are all very knowledgeable, very experienced, and we deeply “understand its basic tenets”. And none of are “misrepresenting” Santmat …. but YOU are misrepresenting us, and that is dishonest.
“I do believe (and you may disagree) that in its essence, Sant Mat is no different from what Jesus taught”
— That is simply the standard RS bullshit propaganda that seeks to co-opt and exploit christianity and attract christian seekers.
“It [Santmat] is essentially the same as what the Buddha taught”
— NO it is NOT (It is NOT “the same as what the Buddha taught”). Not at all. That is an outright bogus and illegitimate claim. Any Buddhist scholar knows that.
“I don’t know which lifetime Brian is in, but that is irrelevant. The point is he gave up – after 35 years of what seems to me of essentially ‘faking it'”
— Bullshit. He did not “give up” at all. There is no doubt that he has very much continued his pursuit of truth… and meditation.
“this question has been debated for millenia – whether there is free choice or divine Will. […] discovering the secrets of existence takes our entire life, and is arguably the most important thing in life, isn’t it? An unexamined life is not worth living.”
— No it is not necessarily “the most important thing in life”. And as for “an unexamined life”… well you apparently don’t seem to do much of that. You just parrot RS dogma.
“God does test the patience and persistence of seekers – Heaven is not granted easily, and why should it be?”
— That is merely your blind assumption and belief in the supposed efficacy of struggle and effort towards a supposed salvation…. which is fundamentally a kind of sickness.
“There are a couple of references from the gospels on this. One is Jesus’ statement that ‘Many be called but few be chosen”.”
— Again, “Jesus” is a contrived (and combined) myth. It is a manipulation of history by the church.
“how many initiates say they cannot meditate….and the Master’s response that they need to try harder.”
— Yes, such blatantly typical manipulative guru-cult rhetoric.
“You may say this contradicts the 4-lifetime guarantee, but it does not. The guarantee is conditional on the initiate doing their part, and leaving the rest to God.”
— There can be NO such “guarantee” beyond this lifetime. It is absurd.
“There is no question God holds the fat end of the stick, and fixes the rules of the game.”
— This reveals your tendency to religious authoritarianism.
“This may seem unfair, but the flip side is that if one accepts these rules, one can be fully restored to God’s own status – that is surely more than enough compensation?”
— “if one accepts these rules, one can be fully restored to God’s own status”??? No, this is just an incredible load of bullshit and nonsense.
“As for whether the Master has power to keep track of karmas, or meet me at death’s door – yes I know but this is what faith is.”
— Go ahead and live your life on lame blind faith if you want to. But its not very intelligent.
“I know from my personal experience with the Master that he does know what I am doing, and takes actions, sometimes to punish (to correct) and sometimes to protect. I do believe he will be there at death’s door, because I know how often he has mystically protected me in this life.”
— Harinder, to put it simply, YOU are mentally ill. Your comment reveals what is called magical thinking, and that is indicative of delusion and mental illness.
“I am not going to go into details because these things are private and not to be revealed. […] but thousands of other people have had similar experiences.”
— You are delusional. And NO, you do NOT know what thousands of other people have or have not experienced. You are merely projecting your own delusions upon others.
how do you know there is a God, and a Just One? Well I just know, but am not interested in providing proof to someone who does not know.”
— NO…. the simple fact is that you can NOT provide any such “proof”…. ever. So don’t try to bullshit your way around this.

“…….and most Canadians (I live in Canada) do believe what goes around, comes around.”
—WOW…I never knew that, I mean…..I never knew that…..
—We in Texas believe, that what can be hauled in a pickup truck, can also be hauled in a trailer, pulled by a pickup truck.
Dangit……I know and believe that…I really do….
Roger

Dear Harinder,
You wrote:
You may say this contradicts the 4-lifetime guarantee, but it does not. The guarantee is conditional on the initiate doing their part, and leaving the rest to God.
I think its wrong: I have heard many satsangs of Charan Singh and in his book The Master Answers as well he has clearly stated that once a soul is initiated the Master is going to take that soul back to the Lord within one birth, two births, three births but at the most in fourth births. It depends on that person as to how much he has to clear his karmas,so the guarantee is not at all conditional and further Charan Singh also said that an initiate can never be reborn in a lower specie.

Harinder,
I simply have one very important question for you, and then I will leave you alone:
Why are you VIOLATING the current RS masters formal published prohibition against all RS intiates posting, preaching, discussing, or debating anything related to Sant Mat on the internet???
In other words, are you not aware of this formal prohibition? Do you not respect that the RS internet prohibition IS in fact “the master’s will” and is his published instructions to all initiated satsangis???
By your repeated preaching and discussing of Santmat in this comment forum, you are completely disregarding and violating his will – his instructions that were formally published more than 12 years ago (and have never been retracted).
You claim to be a devoted follower of Santmat and supposedly surrendered the master’s will… but yet you turn around and ignore and violate the master’s will.
If you are realy the RS initiate and follower that you claim to be, then you would no doubt NOT have engaged or continue to engage in deliberately violating the RSSB master’s will in the form of his formal published instructions to all initiated RS satsangis.
The fact that you are now preaching and debating Santmat in this comment forum shows that, either you are not an initiate, or else you do not really respect the current RS masters Santmat internet prohibition.
Bottom line: Your continued discussion of Santmat is ample eveidence that you do not practice what you preach. If you were true to the wishes of the RSSB, then you would cease immediately.

Harinder,
Before you take tAo’s advice and cease immediately I have a few responses. I may come off as a smart ass, but I think the issues I raise are legitimate..
You said: “Of course I don’t know which lifetime Brian is in, but that is irrelevant. The point is he gave up – after 35 years of what seems to me of essentially ‘faking it’ – giving satsangs and writing books on things he didn’t believe in or find satisfaction in.”
–On what basis do you make this statement? Because you think that if the 35 years he put into the path were sincere he would have succeeded?
You said: “God does test the patience and persistence of seekers – Heaven is not granted easily, and why should it be?”
–Why shouldn’t it be? Why shouldn’t it be as plain as the back of your hand?
You said: “Thus many are initiated but only those who go through the tests will be successful.”
–Think about it. Why would God require all these tests? What difference is it to him whether we go through tests or not? You make him out to be some sadistic puppet-master making us jump through all these hoops to get to what we already are, or in your view, to what we are destined to be. This seems rather sick and/or sophomoric like initiation into some college fraternity or street gang.
You said: ” You may say this contradicts the 4-lifetime guarantee, but it does not. The guarantee is conditional on the initiate doing their part, and leaving the rest to God.”
–So, the guarantee is conditional? Then maybe it will take 26 lifetimes if the initiate is a slouch and drinks beer, eats chicken wings, and bangs babes (or dudes) for four lifetimes instead of meditating and sticking to the vows?
You said: “…my belief has emerged strong.”
–In other words, your faith has emerged strong. Nothing wrong with that as long as you admit it is faith and not direct knowledge or experience when discussing RS with others.
You said: “Your argument about the Master’s ability to track karma or be at death’s door is similar to the atheist’s argument – how do you know there is a God, and a Just One? Well I just know, but am not interested in providing proof to someone who does not know. They have their destiny and I have mine.”
–Why not provide proof so that those who do not know can know? Yes, your destiny is to have faith in a concept of some future gain for yourself in some theoretical region of light and bliss earned via hard work and virtue. Others prefer not to go on faith, but rather on the immensity of what is immediately available and perceptible as it is right now.

Harinder, you really don’t understand much about life or truth-seeking.
Life changes. Perceptions of what is true change. If we didn’t change, we’d be dead.
Because I’ve grown in my understanding over the years, somehow you consider this “faking it” when I believed differently. That’s ridiculous.
I’ve been married twice. I wasn’t faking love for my first wife during the time I was married to her. But we gradually grew apart and the love dimmed.
Same with RSSB/Sant Mat. I was a true believer for over thirty years. Now I am an “I don’t know.”
Haven’t you ever changed your mind about something? If so, I guess this means, according to your way of thinking, that you were faking your original thought.

Brian:
1. You wrote: “Why should anyone believe that God exists when there is no demonstrable evidence of this?” I ask you on what basis you spent 35 years preaching to others a path to God, as well as books about the same, if you had no ‘demonstrable evidence’ that God exists? What possessed you to get up on a podium and lecture to others how to find God, when you had no proof? The Sant Mat masters never asked to be taken at their word – they consistently said – go in and see for yourself. Did you? And if you found nothing, why did you preach to others? Was this not hypocrisy?
2. Bacteria have existed for perhaps millions of years. But humans only found ‘demonstrable evidence’ in the 17th century when magnifying glasses were invented. Does that mean the bacteria never existed.
There are plenty of evangelical preachers on TV who go on and on about ‘Jesus’ this and ‘Jesus’ that. How many do you think are true prophets, and how many false?
If you never got any real satisfaction from the 35 years in Sant Mat, whether mystical or emotional or other, you had no business lecturing to others or writing books. You were merely parroting things you had no internal experience of.
Sorry but that’s how I see it. Life does change us, but not our central beliefs. Isn’t that the meaning of ‘faith’ – something that withstands trials and tribulations?

Ha ha, well said, Roger…
So you’re from Texas, land of that ‘born-again’ Christian named Georgie Bush Jr?
Don’t know what you think of him, but I think he was full of it…
Regards.

Juan:
1. Master Charan Singh pointed out that the Bible edits out many other relevant gospels (eg. Thomas, Mary Magdalene)and the Church also suppressed many things. But that does not invalidate the entire Bible. He did after all write “Light on St. Matthew”.
2. Where can I get the abstract of the speech you refer to?
3. The Master’s commitment is inviolable, but the initiate also makes a vow, doesn’t he/she? It is the human tendency to want a free ride, to have the freedom to break one’s own vow and side of the bargain, and still expect the Master to fulfill his.. Is this fair? Eg. is it the Master’s obligation to redeem in 4 lifetimes someone who has spent those lifetimes raping, killing, pillaging? “You cannot be serious”, as Johnny Mac used to say.

Tucson:
I wrote a long response to your queries, but the site didn’t accept it – maybe it was too long. Here is a shorter version:
1. On Brian’s 35 years – I did not imply that 35 years of ‘sincere’ effort would necessarily have given him success. I said the contrary – that it is not the seeker’s place to impose a deadline for salvation, whether 35 years or whatever. It is not in the seeker’s hands. That is the higher Power’s decision and discretion – it could be 4 lifetimes or perhaps even 4 years. Claiming the path is false because the inner light did not come within a self-prescribed schedule is trying to impose one’s own will on God.
I have already replied to Brian questioning why he got up on a podium to lecture others on the path to God, if he never himself found any evidence or internal validation of the truth of what he was preaching. I’ll leave it at that.
2. Why shouldn’t Heaven come easy as the back of a hand? Frankly now that seems a silly question. What in life does? It seems you would like God to be at your beck and call and give you or any other human being whatever you want (eg. billions of dollars, all the sex and women you want, etc) regardless of whether or not you have earned or deserved it. What would that make you? The Divine Intelligence has chosen not to make people parasites who get what they want without earning it, and has imposed rules and accountability, though the accountability is not entirely straight-forward for reasons I will not go into today. That Intelligence has decreed, and justly in my opinion, that everything must be earned. Including heaven.
3. Paradoxically there is a place where you get everything you want without effort… forever. (So we are told by every scripture, saint, mystic and philosopher, and I believe them). That is Heaven. But the catch is Heaven must also be earned. Don’t you work for a living? Doesn’t your relationship with a wife or gf require work? Things that come too easy don’t satisfy, and are not appreciated. They are taken for granted, and frequently abused.
4. Why does God require tests? Not because It is a sadist but because the ultimate prize (Heaven) deserves to be given only to the most worthy.
5. Proofs. I have them but the teaching is that these are not matters to be disclosed. What happens between a Master and seeker is ‘strictly confidential’.
6. Conditional guarantee. See my response to Juan. Everyone wants a free ride and to skip the fine print. There are definite conditions to this path – and you should know them – meditation, abstinence from meat and alcohol, moral life etc. What you seem to imply is that it should be okay for a person to life a completely immoral life (i.e animal and carnal life) and still qualify for Heaven….. But that violates reason and the rules of God. If you prefer the material world, you get to stay in it – indefinitely, in conditions you may not like at all. If you’re sick of it, though, and want to go to a better place, a Master can help. Provided one does one’s part, by keeping the vows one has made, which will slowly replace the love of carnal matter with a higher love. Wherever thy treasure is, there thy heart will be, and where thy heart is, surely that is where thy body will be – do you not see the logic in this?
I think I will take a rest from this site for a while now.
Best regards.

Harinder, you’re getting tiresome. Preachy, judgmental, illogical. You like to ask questions. Why don’t you answer some for a change?
(1) Do you have proof that God exists? Or that the RSSB guru is God? If so, please provide it. If not, stop with the nonsense that every person who gives a satsang under RSSB auspices is supposed to be God-realized. Where did you get that idea? Do you know anything about Sant Mat? Doesn’t seem like it. I know many people who give RSSB satsangs. I don’t know any who claim that they have proof of God’s existence.
(2) Are you a RSSB initiate? If not, are you an initiate of some other Sant Mat guru? I suspect that all you are is someone who likes to preach what you’ve read in some books. Because as tAo pointed out, if you are a RSSB initiate you’re defying the guru’s instructions by arguing about Sant Mat and getting all preachy on the Internet. So you don’t have any business telling other people that they’ve failed to live up to Sant Mat precepts when you aren’t doing that yourself.
Please, get a life. Either take part in conversations here like a normal human being, or go play your dogmatic games on someone else’s blog. You come onto a Church of the Churchless site and are amazed to find that people here don’t believe in God, or aren’t sure God exists.
Here’s a suggestion: head over to a People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) web site, or blog, and start preaching at them about how they should be advocating that animals should be used for painful experiments, or raised inhumanely for food.
That makes as much sense as telling “churchless” people that they should believe your form of religious fundamentalism.

Harwani, a P.S.
No, you’re wrong about core beliefs never changing. This also shows how out of touch you are with reality. My wife is a psychotherapist. Her job for many years was helping people to change their core beliefs.
Have you ever heard of conversions? How people believe one thing, like God doesn’t exist, and then “find Jesus”? Or the reverse: how people believe in God for a long time, then are unconverted and become atheists or agnostics?
You seem to live in a strange world of your own ideas, not the real world. I suggest you get out more. Talk to lots of people. Have an open mind. This is what “faith” is: trust that reality can be known, albeit imperfectly perhaps, if we keep our mind open to new evidence and fresh facts.
Faith doesn’t mean sticking with one belief system no matter what. That’s called “fundamentalism.” It’s why the Catholic Church resisted the evidence that the Earth orbits the Sun, rather than the other way around. And why you are so resistant to hearing evidence that your beliefs aren’t true.

Harinder,
Well its now obvious that you have choosen to ignore, in as much as you continue to violate the RSSB master’s prohibition against the discussion of Santmat on the internet. Of course, you are entirely free to do as you please. However, it does show that you do not respect the RS master’s wishes, and thus you do not practice what you advocate and preach in this forum.
On the other hand, please understand that I am not suggesting that you should or that you must cease posting and leave here. I actually encourage you to follow your own heart and mind, and to do as you like. But just don’t be preaching and telling others to respect the RS master, when you yourself do not.
Also, its obvious to me that you are now unable to acknowledge or respond my communications to you because you cannot handle your beliefs and your blind faith being challenged by both facts and by penetrating inquiry.
“The Sant Mat masters never asked to be taken at their word – they consistently said – go in and see for yourself.”
— The problem with that deceptive little trick is, is that there is nothing to see within that can ever actually prove anything. So there is no proof, ever.
“And if you found nothing, why did you preach to others? Was this not hypocrisy?”
— If that is hypocrisy, then it is also the same hypocrisy when other satsang lecturers and even the master himself, “preaches to others”.
“evangelical preachers on TV who go on and on about ‘Jesus’ […] How many do you think are true prophets, and how many false?”
— There are no “true prophets”. None whatsoever. Not christian, and not santmat either. It is simply all a myth. There are ONLY ordinary human beings, across the entire world.
“that’s how I see it. Life does change us, but not our central beliefs.”
— No. Life and time tends to change all and everything, and that can and does include changing “central beliefs” as well.
“Master Charan Singh […] He did after all write “Light on St. Matthew”.”
— Hmmm… I rather thought it was called “Light on St. John”. Anybody here have a copy of that book?
“The Master’s commitment is inviolable”
— “inviolable”??? Now that is a crock of you-know-what if there ever was one. You really aren’t that naive, are you Harinder?
“It is the human tendency to […] to break one’s own vow and side of the bargain, and still expect the Master to fulfill his.”
— No, I don’t expect any such thing. The so-called “master” does nothing. He fulfils nothing. He gives nothing. He has nothing to give. He only takes. He takes the devotion of fools, and he takes their adulation, and their attention, and of course he takes lots of their money. He doesn’t give anything back. Nothing. He doesn’t give anybody one damn thing. Show me one thing that he himself has given.
“it (is) the Master’s obligation to redeem in 4 lifetimes […] You cannot be serious”, as Johnny Mac used to say.”
— How absurd. YOU cannot be serious.
“Tucson: I wrote a long response to your queries, but the site didn’t accept it maybe it was too long.”
— Fyi: That only happens because you exceeded the time limit on composing your message. And so next time, you simply need to first ‘save’ or ‘copy’ your compostion 9so you don’t lose it), and then REFRESH your browser… before you finally click on “Post”.
“it is not the seeker’s place to impose a deadline for salvation, whether 35 years or whatever.”
— There is no such “salvation”. Salvation is notjhing but a myth. Its is merely an idea that is used to advantage by religion to manipulate the ignorant. There is no salvation necessary. Everything simply is… As It Is. There is no one who needs saving, and no savior, and therefore no salvation. Salvation is a false doctrine.
“It is not in the seeker’s hands.”
— Wrong. Dead wrong. Everything is in the seeker’s hands. It is ALL in the seeker’s hands.
“That is the higher Power’s decision and discretion”
— Balogna. There is no one “higher” making any such decisions or discretions. It is painfully obvious that you are living in a very naive fantasy world Harinder.
“Why shouldn’t Heaven come easy as the back of a hand? Frankly now that seems a silly question. What in life does?”
— Life does.
“It seems you would like God to be at your beck and call and give you or any other human being whatever you want […] The Divine Intelligence has chosen […] and has imposed rules and accountability”
— You are living in a dreamland Harinder.
That Intelligence has decreed, and justly in my opinion, that everything must be earned. Including heaven.”
— Bullshit. That is a lie. There was/is NO such ‘decree’. And there is no other “Intelligence” apart from the innate awareness that is all conscious beings. The truth of the matter is that, when it comes to real insight and understanding, effort is a sickness.
As I have long suspected, you obviously don’t know squat about anything that you are talking about Harinder.
“Paradoxically there is a place where you get everything you want without effort… forever. That is Heaven.”
— You are living in a total fantasy dream world. It’s really rather sad…. namely deluded people like you.
“Why does God require tests? […] because the ultimate prize (Heaven) deserves to be given only to the most worthy.”
— You are one SICK dude Harinder. Your God is a tyrant. Your God is a pig. And your God, is a god-damn illusion.
“Proofs. I have them but the teaching is that these are not matters to be disclosed.”
— YOU are a LIAR Harinder. YOU have no such “Proofs”. There are no such “Proofs”. And your lame excuse is transparently LAME.
“What happens between a Master and seeker is ‘strictly confidential’.”
— You are so utterly full of shit.
“that violates reason and the rules of God.”
— Btw dimwit, you don’t speak for God.
“a Master can help.”
— This “Master” idea is a myth.
In conclusion (and at the risk of being a bit redundant), I will echo some relevant points that Brian made:
“Harinder, you’re getting tiresome. Preachy, judgmental, illogical. You like to ask questions. Why don’t you answer some for a change?”
“Do you have proof that God exists? Or that the RSSB guru is God? If so, please provide it.”
“Are you a RSSB initiate? […] I suspect that all you are is someone who likes to preach what you’ve read in some books. […] if you are a RSSB initiate you’re defying the guru’s instructions by arguing about Sant Mat and getting all preachy on the Internet. So you don’t have any business telling other people that they’ve failed to live up to Sant Mat precepts when you aren’t doing that yourself.”
“Either take part in conversations here like a normal human being, or go play your dogmatic games on someone else’s blog.”
“You seem to live in a strange world of your own ideas, not the real world.”
— And especially: Don’t be “telling churchless people that they should believe your form of religious fundamentalism”.

Tao,
“you continue to violate the RSSB master’s prohibition against the discussion of Santmat on the internet”
— Where do you get this from? As far as I understand RSSB encourages one to question and to select the correct master.
“But just don’t be preaching and telling others to respect the RS master”
— Was this a bit like you telling me i’m the new kid on the block and need to show some reverence to an old fart like you?
“you cannot handle your beliefs and your blind faith being challenged by both facts and by penetrating inquiry”
— Practice what you preach. You mean in the same way i challenged your beliefs in dzogchen and the master/student relationship? Why don’t you actually have the courage to put your beliefs on the line for everyone to scrutinize, rather than sitting back picking holes in everything like some pedantic old grannie.
“So there is no proof, ever”
— What proof is their of Dzogchen or the existence of a primordial state?
“You are one SICK dude Harinder. Your God is a tyrant. Your God is a pig. And your God, is a god-damn illusion.”
— Just who is the sick pig fundamentalist? Dear god man you are clearly away with the fairies. Hypocrasy of the highest order.
Finally, please stop sucking up to Brian, its embaressing to watch a grown man engage in such psychophantic behaviour. Grow some balls man. Are you man or mouse?

yliadin,
i see u too have picked up om the gratuitous harinder-bashing by this tAo character.
what is this nonsense?
my god man, i dont believe in all this RSSB stuff, but one should be allowed to believe what they want without being called a ‘pigfuck’.
Its just not cricket, what what.
Tao,
I’m convinved you need to go back to India for another 20 years to learn some tolerance – either than or smoke a shedload of doob cos your fascist intolerant rhetoric reminds me of an infamous wee austrian munter with a moustache.

Dear Harinder and yliadin,
I wonder what your reaction would be if you knew that Gurinder regularly monitors this site and knows exactly what goes on here.In fact he might even applaud Brian’s sentiments.
I also wonder if you carry on like this when in front of your guru.If you believe your guru is God and knows what you think and do.Do you think he would approve of your behaviour?
I’snt Sant Mat considered a path of bahkti?
Have you stoped for a moment to consider what is the role of this blog.
This blog is a mirror.Satsangis come here and show
themselves as they really are.The nice satsangi mask is of and the real person underneath shows
Think who is reflecting who.
Be grateful such a site as this exists.It is here
so that satsangis can know themselves.
With
Love
Obed

Dear All,
What I wrote above just popped into the mind.I take no
blame or credit for what is written.
“Everything that happens, does so to help reveal a greater experience of truth.”
Love
Obed

Obed,
Wise calm words, but seems to me that if ex-satsangis have a bone to pick with current satsangis – and are intent in doing it with such vigour and personal insult – then those freedoms need to be extended both ways.
Ppl should also be allowed to defend their beliefs.
All the best
George

George, yliadin almost certainly is Ashy using another name, so his comments have been deleted, just as Ashy’s were. Ashy promised to stop his infantile insults if I left a few last rants of his up, which I did. Then he broke his promise and started with his ranting again.
No, people aren’t allowed to defend their beliefs on this blog, not when all they do is spew dogmatic fundamentalism and aren’t willing to engage in comment conversations with other people.
As I’ve said before, it’s like someone going into a coffee shop and telling a group of people who are talking at a table, “You need to stop talking to each other! You’re deluded! You’re wrong!” The guy would be told to take a hike, because he has no right to tell other people what they can, or can’t discuss.
I’m all for open discussion. But like most blog hosts, I have to preserve a commenting atmosphere that preserves the purpose of this blog. People who want to preach the dogmas of a particular religion should do so on another blog or site. People who are only interested in insulting me should find something better to do with their time.
I’ll continue deleting comments that don’t fit with what I’m trying to do here on the Church of the Churchless. This is common on blogs, unfortunately — people (“trolls,” as they’re called) who interfere with discussions on subjects they object to.
Free speech is great. But not when it interferes with the free speech of other people.

“Ppl should also be allowed to defend their beliefs.”
—I strongly believe in my pickup’s ability to haul stuff. I shall defend my belief until I die. My faith in Haulism is strong and true. God is on my step-side. My path is a Haulin to Heaven. Gotta go.
I’m haulin ass to the library.
Roger

Brian
Yip, its your blog, but I do think that censorship then has to cut both ways.
There’s another chap on here who is most intolerant and gets exceptionally personal. I think its a bit much that he’s allowed to have a full tilt at any passing windmill without admonishment, while the ppl whose person and beliefs are being so personally targetted and insulted are unable to respond.
A bit of ‘fairplay’ is called for.

“So you’re from Texas, land of that ‘born-again’ Christian named Georgie Bush Jr?”
—Never endorsed George Bush Jr. However, I did enjoy listening to Ron Paul. He, imo, is very interesting.
—Texas is the land of other things too. Hogs, goats, cows, live oak trees, gas-oil wells, dinosaur tracks and other good stuff.
Roger

George, there are differences between Ashy and tAo. That said, I wish everybody who left comments on this blog would refrain from intense profanity and personal insults. But this is the nature of the Internet, unfortunately.
The distinction I make is what a person is trying to accomplish with profanity and/or insults. And whether this is all they do, or whether they also are engaging in “normal” comment conversations on churchless subjects.
Conversations get heated, whether in person or on the Internet. That’s fine. But what I won’t tolerate on this blog is intolerance of discussing churchlessness, because that is the purpose here.
If someone wants to openly and honestly defend some faith or religion, great. I’ve made that offer to Ashy, for example, numerous times. But the offer wasn’t accepted, because all he wants to do is call this blog “fundamentalist” since people here don’t accept uncritically his religious belief system.
I regularly delete comments from other people that are simply a rehash of some theological dogma. And there’s obviously no place for comments that rant on and on about how useless this blog is.
I always think when I read a comment like that, “Dude, if this blog is so useless, what are you doing spending your time trying to leave comments on it?”

Dear George,
I cant reply for Brian but the chap you are talking about I suspect is actually a very sensitive,kindly person.Every now again I think more by accident than design this chap posts something that to me belies the image he likes to project.
I remember one post which was a warm very introverted and touching post.Of course that type of post did not last but I like to believe
that most of us who do post here reflect to a certain extent our more 3D personalities.
Please understand, the chap we are talking about does not need me to talk for him but I feel I would be doing him a disservice if I did not say I dont fully agree with you and to ask you to give it time.
With kindest regards
Obed

Final word (I think):
I have done what I wanted to do – challenge the misinterpretations and false information given on this site by flakes and hypocrites who never truly accepted or understood the Sant Mat philosophy. I occasionally used harsh language, which I regret.
It is possible I may return but I see some people will believe what they want to. As even tA0 said, in the midst of his ridiculous rants, that debate and discussion can be misused and be futile. It is true the path is an internal one, not one to be argued about.
As for you Brian, I will say you are one big fat hypocrite. You preached for 35 years something you never truly believed, because it gave you pleasure to get up on a podium and lecture to others. The same vain pleasure motivated your book ‘Life is Fair’, which by now you also will disown, won’t you?
This may the the Church of the Churchless, but it is not officially called the Church of the Godless. Perhaps that is what it should be called. But Jesus, who the ‘Church’ claims it is founded on, never asked for a Church at all. He taught the opposite. He taught that those who pray in public for public show (in those days there were no ‘Churches’, only temples and synagogues) get public acclaim as reward, but nothing more from God. That is what Brian was seemingly upto in those 35 years of preaching and writing things that he now says were lies.
Yes Brian you (not I) are now saying you lied during all those satsangs you gave – that everything you preached was hokum. What does that say about you? Are you not a fake, and a flake? Where will you be 5 or 10 years from now? Which philosophy will you be preaching then, and on which forum?
True prayer, Jesus taught, was to go into your own home, shut the door, and privately communicate with the Force, which would then hear and reward it. That is also where the true Sant Mat is to be found – in true meditation.
Even the medical establishment has endorsed meditation (not even the spiritual kind) as immensely valuable to reduce stress and increase longevity. But to this fake Brian – 35 years of meditation gave no benefits. I wonder if he meditated, and what in fact was he meditating on.
He claims to know the teachings, but has never bothered to question whether his own application was sincere. It never occurred to him to ask if the ‘soil’ (him) was rocky and barren. Much easier to blame the seed as useless.
But as Shakespeare put it, ‘the fault, dear Brutus, lies within…”.
Too bad. But you are the loser Brian, and the pathetic few who listen to your ‘turn-coat’ betrayal of a path you once took pleasure in marketing.
In truth, you are more to be pitied than censured.
No doubt you and your followers will respond to this post with a bunch of attacks on me. Go ahead. I have said my piece and am satisfied I have done the right thing.
One last point. I am not an animal-rights activist, and will not follow your ridiculous advice about PETA. I know there are consequences for actions, and what I kill today will one day kill me. You don’t believe this anymore, after 35 years of preaching the contrary? Well that’s your choice.
But you will find out the hard way, when you will be reborn as the chicken or lamb you kill to eat today, and are cut to pieces to fill someone else’s belly. Or did you imagine that you chose the human body and circumstances that you got in this incarnation? You didn’t. Neither did your parents with their copulation. It was the Unseen Force that chose. And your choices in this life will determine where that Force chooses to incarnate you the next time. You will find this out, the hard way.
Good luck.

Fair enough Brian.
Understood Obed, you seem a very decent chap.
Good god HArinder, your last paragraph has scared the living bejesus into me. i am a ravenous meat-eater, f’ck me, i’m going to burn ….

Harinder, you didn’t read (or understand) what I just said in a previous comment, did you? Obviously you aren’t interested in expanding your understanding, just in preaching to the non-choir.
I told you that I did, repeat DID, believe in Sant Mat for the thirty years or so I was a devoted satsangi. Yet you repeat your baseless contention that I was a fake during all those years. That’s absolutely wrong, and I totally reject your lie.
You are a dogmatic fundamentalist, so you can’t understand how an open-minded person can change his or her mind. I was a sincere satsangi for over three decades. Now I’m an equally sincere seeker of truth who doesn’t subscribe to any dogma except the open-minded “I don’t know.”
I still have a lot of fondness for Radha Soami Satsang Beas and the guru who initiated me, Charan Singh. I have shed many tears over the years in his memory, both during meditation and outside of it. You have no right to assume that you understand the level of my devotion to Charan Singh, or my love for him.
Regarding the book I wrote, Life is Fair. As I’ve mentioned before on this blog, one day the phone rang and I answered a call from India. The head of the RSSB Publications Department, Faith Singh, told me that Charan Singh had wanted to have a small book available that he could hand to people that explained the karmic rationale for vegetarianism.
Faith said that some other people had been working on a draft of such a book, but the project had stalled and a new direction needed to be taken. She asked if I was willing to attempt writing the book.
I said “Yes.” I was deeply moved by the idea that I could help fulfill a wish of my dearly beloved guru, who died in 1990. For several years after that I spent countless hours researching, writing, and then re-writing the book after equally countless comments and requests for edits came back from the Publications Department.
All at my own expense, of course.
Eventually Faith asked me to come to India for a few weeks to finish the book, because it was tough to do via email and fax. I said, “Sure.” Faith then said, “You know that your name won’t be on the book; it will be anonymous.” I said, “I don’t care.”
I went to India. Finished the book. It ended up having my name on it. I was pleased (yes, I have an ego), but I was willing to spend years writing it without credit to fulfill a desire of Charan Singh’s.
So, please, don’t give me any more crap about faking it. When you’ve been me, and shed my tears of devotion for Charan Singh, only then do you have the right to tell me how I felt about Sant Mat and the RSSB path. Which means, you don’t have that right.

Harinder, a P.S. after re-reading your last paragraph: I’ve been a vegetarian since 1969. I still am a vegetarian. I still meditate every day. I don’t follow other Sant Mat vows as strictly as before, or at all (I’ll eat an egg white now and then). But your idea that I’ve turned into some sort of carnivorous heathen is absurd.
My comment about PETA was made in an attempt to show that if you challenge the basic precept of any blog or web site, you aren’t going to get very far there. Try going into a Christian church service some day and start yelling, “You must believe in Allah, infidels!” You’ll be escorted out the door if you don’t shut up.
I’m more courteous and accommodating to preachy commenters like you. But there’s a limit. Which, as noted above, you’ve crossed when you tell me that I faked my commitment and devotion to Sant Mat and my guru for thirty plus years.
Are you married? Do you have a girlfriend? Have you had only one serious relationship in your life? How would you like it if I said, “Harinder, you’ve been faking your love for ____”? I’d have no right to say that, because I have no idea what is in your heart. Neither do you.

Dear,dear Harinder,
Dont be so certain.You are in your true essence
uncertainty.You cannot escape it by trying to make certainty.Uncertainty will come back and sweep you off your feet.What I was trying to tell you with love and kindness and from my own inner experiences.You are The Formless and by giving love and acceptance to your own dear self you are at the same time loving The Formless which is your dear self.
By all means at this time in your life do what you feel is true to yourself but dont close the door on
what people have said here.
I for one really wish you well.
Love
Obed

To: George
[I had said in previous comments: “the RSSB master’s prohibition against the discussion of Santmat on the internet”]
George, you then asked: “Where do you get this from? As far as I understand RSSB encourages one to question and to select the correct master.
— If you were an initated RS satsangi, then you would already be familar with this RS internet prohibition. This was formally and officially published to all satsangis (via official RSSB newsletters) back around 1997. It was made quite direct and clear that ALL initiated RS satsangis were advised to NOT discuss, debate, preach, or promote Santmat or RS teachings in any way whatsoever on the Internet, (and that included e-mail, message boards, chat forums, and so forth).
The fact that you seem to doubt me and to challange me on this matter, tells me that you somehow assume that you know more about RS than I do, and that you think that I am fabricating false info. But I would not have mentioned and posted this info if it were not true. You are apparently very reluctant to acknowledge that I am an honest person and that my comments are factual. So I feel that your response here is an indication that your underlying attitude towards me kind of sucks. Why don’t you just stop your little ego-battle game and simply join in a more open-minded and fair discussion… and quit defending posters and trolls who post blatant fundamentalist rhetoric.
“just don’t be preaching and telling others to respect the RS master” — Was this a bit like you telling me i’m the new kid on the block and need to show some reverence to an old fart like you?”
— No, not at all. And also, I have never said that you should “show some reverence” towards me or towards anyone. That is a gross distortion of my words and my meaning.
“you cannot handle your beliefs and your blind faith being challenged by both facts and by penetrating inquiry” — Practice what you preach.”
— I DO. So you cannot show anywhere that I don’t.
“You mean in the same way i challenged your beliefs in dzogchen and the master/student relationship?”
— Wrong. I don’t have such “beliefs in dzogchen”. Again, dzogchen is not at all about any kind of beliefs. Nor is there some “master/student relationship” as you seem to want to imply.
“Why don’t you actually have the courage to put your beliefs on the line for everyone to scrutinize”
— Again, I don’t hold any such “beliefs” as you are trying to assert. Dzogchen is not a belief, and I have already shared quite alot about dzogchen (“for everyone to scrutinize”) in previous months and years past. So I don’t have to keep doing it again and again just for you. There has never been anything that I have shared that was not open to scrutiny or inquiry. So your challenge here has no basis.
“rather than sitting back picking holes in everything like some pedantic old grannie.”
— I don’t post any such “pedantic” stuff (unlike these fundamentist RS satsangis). And I do “pick”, or rather point out, the holes that already exist in the dogma that others try to preach here. As Brian has told you, this site is not for preaching dogma. But you seem to continue to think that the dogmatists should be able use this site as a venue to preach and promote their dogma. We are simply not interested in their dogma (of which we are already quite familiar). If you are interested in that, then you should go discuss that with them somewhere else.
So I can only conclude that you still do not understand the purpose and orientation of this site. You seem to think that this site is an open venue for people to preach and impose all their beliefs, and that they have a right to do so. If that’s what you desire, then you should simply move over to the “radhasoamistudies” Yahoo Group, which is a non-moderated public message board forum, where anyone can post (and argue, debate, etc) any sort of Santmat or spiritual dogma they choose.
“What proof is their of Dzogchen or the existence of a primordial state?”
— You misunderstand. That dzogchen is simply Awareness. (there is not some other ‘state’ apart from awareness) So there is no proof needed for awareness. The existence of awareness is obvious.
“Just who is the sick pig fundamentalist?”
— Those who tout their authoritarian fundamentlist ideas of a tyrannical God.
“Hypocrasy of the highest order.”
— Where is this hypocrisy? Lets see it. Show exactly and precisely where/what you think an hypocrisy.
“Finally, please stop sucking up to Brian, its embaressing to watch a grown man engage in such psychophantic behaviour.”
— I don’t suck-up to anyone George. I simply acknowledge Brian when I feel that he has made some good points. Also, I am about as un-sychophantic as anyone could ever be. Your derogatory charges are baseless and have no substance or reality… and your demeaning attitude sucks. And this personally derogatory battle that you are waging against me clearly borders on troll-like.
“Grow some balls man. Are you man or mouse?”
— You don’t know shit about me George. You certainly would not be saying that to my face if you were to encounter me in person. Only pretentious little punks talk like you do. Someday you’ll try to pull that shit-ass attitide on some dude like me, and he’ll beat the living crap out of you. And punks like you, deserve it.
The bottom-line is: George, you are bringing a rather bad crappy vibe to this forum. Your personally derogatory remarks (especially towards me) are cheap and sleazy, and more importantly they have no basis in fact. And also, your continued irrational and unfounded defense and support of what is obvious fundamentalist rhetoric and dogma, indicates that you are probably another troll.
Also, if you don’t like me bashing RS satsangis and their fundamentalist dogma, then why don’t YOU stop being personally derogatory and bashing me (and usually in the form of a straw-man)???
“i dont believe in all this RSSB stuff, but one should be allowed to believe what they want without being called a ‘pigfuck’.”
— No one here said that people can not BELIEVE whatever they want. The issue is that they have no right to preach or IMPOSE their beliefs on others, and self-righteously judge others based upon those dogmatic beliefs.
“Tao, I’m convinved you need to go back to India for another 20 years to learn some tolerance”
— George, it is YOU who are the intolerant one. But you don’t see that yet, because you are so full of yourself. You don’t know anything about me George. You don’t know anyting about my life, or about my life in India. You have absolutley no basis to call me intolerant. Your perspective is warped and skewed and distorted. It is the RS and religious fundamentalists who are the intolerant ones.
“your fascist intolerant rhetoric”
— You are as far off the mark about me as you could possibly be. And you obviously don’t know what fascism means. Fascism is when the State merges with the Corporate, and vice versa. The USA is an example of a country that is now very quickly becoming an actual real fascist state.
So, for all your supposed great scientific knowledge, you really aren’t very well informed. You ought to go study and learn what fascism is really all about.
You can become informed about that (and much more) here:
http://www.infowars.com
http://www.prisonplanet.com
Then hopefully you will begin to see that I am not your enemy that you have so mistakenly chosen to disrespect me and portray me as being. And maybe then you will also join the ranks of those who chose to stand up and defend humanity against the fascists and the totalitarian global elitists, instead of being ignorant and uninformed, and part of the problem.

Dear Brian:
I do apologize for the harsh words I have used. They are uncharacteristic of any satsangi. I really must watch how I react – that is my own struggle with my anger and perhaps vanity.
The Lord does work in mysterious ways. Some of the ‘karma’ of the harsh language I used came back to me in the form of the insults from tA0. So even his anger served a purpose.
I guess what I have been trying to say is that one should truly assimilate and digest a philosophy before preaching it. But I won’t say more.
In fact, let me say something else that I truly do believe. Regardless of your feelings about it, the 35 years of your service have been recorded by the Force. I have no way of proving this to you, and it doesn’t matter since you won’t believe me. If you ever see the light again, and do return to the fold, your previous service will help you.
Even if you do not, service is service, even if done without full understanding. Naturally the more sincerely and deeply service is done, the greater its value.
Whatever you gave of your own time and expense is a sacrifice that will bear fruit, whether you believe it or not. As for the eating of meat, the logic of it should be obvious to you, as you wrote the book.
However for the benefit of others who have written on this site that there are no consequences, let me give an illustration. The cows, sheep, chickens and so on that are slaughtered to fill human bellies also value their own lives as much as we do. Just as we would not want someone (eg. a visiting army of extra-terrestrials) to come and cut our throats to fill their bellies, the animals we kill don’t want to be killed.
However you see the universe – Godless for instance – there is a natural law of justice which operates – we don’t see its full operation because that is part of the illusion. For creation to function and have meaning, it is necessary for life to exist. Life exists because billions of creatures are kept in ignorance of their divinity and in love with matter. This is also the Will of whatever Power, eg, Nature or Science that you believe runs this creation.
That power does not operate without principle. Just as if you or I were killed by others and would want justice, the animals we kill also are entitled to and receive justice. But that justice is hard to see without a deep study of life. Eg. did Hitler get justice simply by killing himself? No it came after his death and will run for a very long time. So will it be with George Bush Jr. and Dick Cheney, murderers of some 700,000 innocent Iraqi civilians and robbers of their oil. For now, it seems that George and Dick have gotten away with it. But that is an illusion.
The worlds were created in darkness, but a light was also given. A gigantic prison of carnality was created (just look at Discovery channel if you don’t beiieve me – how big fish eat small ones, etc), but an escape hatch was also created. We can choose to love the prison or work for freedom. We can love the world of bodies with sexual passion, the eating of meat from slain animals and so on, or we can try to find a higher existence. But even that is destiny. Even the atheists and agnostics are acting out the parts they have been given. Ultimately, the Force rules.
Peace be with you.
Harinder.

Dear Obed:
Thank you for your kind and gentle words on more than one occasion. I was too busy replying to other posts to acknowledge yours.
I will reflect on what you have said. It is certainly true that those who are ‘certain’ of themselves become fanatics and fundamentalists who cause more harm than good.
At the same time, I think I have come to accept certain beliefs after long and deep reflection on life. I am not simply regurgitating the theory of Sant Mat. I think that perhaps that is what happened to Brian.
Theory is only theory – it only becomes valuable when tested in the crucible of life.
I believe I have tested much of what I have said. Of course the possibility exists I could be wrong. One should never be too certain of oneself, as you correctly say.
Best regards.
Harinder.

Brian:
it appears you fell ‘out of love’ with Sant Mat when Master Charan Singh passed away. Baba Gurinder’s way of doing things has apparently not touched your heart. That is your decision.
Two comments:
1. I have already mentioned that style is not substance. Let me explain why the present Master’s style seems tougher. Too many people ‘skate on the surface’ of Sant Mat. They selectively hear what they want to, and ignore what they do not want. Many examples exist but one will suffice. Even Tucson who was a follower for nearly 20 years under the former Master asked (see above posts) whether the Master was not bound to honor his commitment to an initiate who ate chickens and slept with plenty of women. That suggests Tucson did not understand that the initiate also takes vows that he/she must honor. It is not just a matter of contractual obligation – wanting something without giving something. There is a deeper principle involved. If an initiate wants to continue ‘eating chickens’ and having sex with multiple partners, and so on, that initiate is still in love with carnality. How can the carnal be allowed to rise to the spiritual. Carnality must be overcome. But after 20 years of initiation, should Tucson even haved asked such a question?
The body is the temple of the ‘Living God’. But it is also the temple of carnality. The Living God cannot manifest until the temple has been cleared of carnality and carnal desire. That is the law and it is logical and just.
2. But people seem to want a free ride, and with Master Charan Singh’s seemingly ‘kinder and gentler’ style, they continued to ‘skate on the surface’. So the present Master has toughened the message, so people understand Sant Mat is not a free ride – there is serious work involved. And you seem to have been taken in by the superficial toughness. Underneath is the same kindness of the former Master. To appreciate this, all you need do is observe the present Master’s own reverence to his predecessor; the love in his voice whenever he mentions the former Master.
Enough said.

Harinder, again — not true. Suggestion: think less about me, or other people, and more about yourself. Judge less and seek your own truth more. You’re making a lot of mistakes by believing you know things about me that you’re only guessing at.
I remained a devoted RSSB satsangi for many years after Charan Singh’s death. I liked Gurinder Singh a lot. We got along great. I wrote all three of my books with Gurinder Singh’s encouragement and advice.
I’ll confess that I only skimmed the rest of your comment, after seeing how mistaken you were in the first paragraph. Again, my suggestion is that you use your own mind and experience to try to figure things out, rather than imagining that other people are such and such or so and so.

Harinder said:
“I have done what I wanted to do – challenge the misinterpretations and false information given on this site by flakes and hypocrites who never truly accepted or understood the Sant Mat philosophy.”
— Among others here, you are also calling ME a flake and a hypocrite and saying that I have never undersood Santmat. Fyi, I was an RS initiate (and practiced RS meditation) for 30 years. I too have read and studied ALL the RS books (and many more) and have visited the RS Dera at Beas and have personally discussed Santmat with Huzur Charan Singh numerous times. That entitles me and gives me the right to comment about the subject of Santmat. However, YOU have NO such right to call anyone who has studied and practiced Santmat for 30 years a “flake” and a “hypocrite”. You have shown your true colors. Because if you really are a genuine initiated satsangi, you would have respect for that. But you don’t.
“As even tA0 said, in the midst of his ridiculous rants”
— You seem to blind to the fact that YOUR OWN comments have been blatantly dogmatic rants.
“for you Brian, I will say you are one big fat hypocrite.”
— What gives you the right to call Brian a hypocrite? Have YOU studied and practiced and served Santmat and RS mat for as long and as devotedly as Brian has??? I think not. It is YOU who are the hypocrite Harinder.
“Yes Brian you (not I) are now saying you lied during all those satsangs you gave – that everything you preached was hokum.”
“Are you not a fake, and a flake?”
— NO. That is NOT what Brian has said. You are grossly distorting Brian, and so you are nothing more than an impudent liar.
“True prayer […] was to go into your own home, shut the door, and privately […]That is also where the true Sant Mat is to be found – in true meditation.”
— Then simply go and do your meditation. Why are you judging and arguing with and demeaning other sadhakas here?
“But to this fake Brian – 35 years of meditation gave no benefits. I wonder if he meditated, and what in fact was he meditating on.”
— Actually, Brian’s meditation is absolutely none of your business.
“you are the loser Brian, and the pathetic few who listen to your ‘turn-coat’ betrayal of a path”
— There was/is no such “betrayal”. We are all free to pursue any spiritual direction or orientation that we choose.
“In truth, you are more to be pitied”
— But you are a disgustingly self-righteous and condescending fundamentalist jackass, so who are you to pity anyone?
“I have said my piece and am satisfied I have done the right thing.”
— Which only further proves my previous comment above.
“But you will find out the hard way, when you will be reborn as the chicken or lamb you kill to eat today, and are cut to pieces to fill someone else’s belly. You will find this out, the hard way.”
— From this comment, I can see that you are somewhat mentally disturbed. Do you even know who it is that you are spewing your ridiculous judgements at?
The basic problem here Harinder, is your over-all condescending and negative attitude. If you would see others here as being what they really are – seekers of truth in their own right – and actually join in the discussion instead of mindlessly lashing out and attacking ex-satsangis, then perhaps you would see that there is much more good and light and insight here than what you may think so far.
Santmat is simply NOT the one and ONLY way. So if you can accept and respect that, then why do you still feel a need to challenge and attack and demean those who don’t believe in Santmat in the same way that you do?
It is YOU who is not being tolerant. No one here is telling you that your belief in Santmat is wrong, so why are you telling others that their understanding and practice of Santmat is wrong and “fake”? If you would simply respect that others have their own spiritual orientations, then there would be no need to attack them as you do.
In any case, I do hope you will stay around and participate, but please dispense with your condescending attitude and preaching of dogma and bogus personal criticisms.

Harinder,
I have something to tell you that you need to be aware of:
It is this very dogmatic and fundamentalistic attitude and behavior of people like you that has been one significant factor in causing many former satsangis to “leave the fold”. Many people do not at all like authoritarian dogma pushed on them, or being told that they are wrong and going to hell if they don’t blindly submit to a spiritual cult guru.
You do NOT help the cause or the reputation of Santmat and the RSSB by presumptiously judging and criticising others who have their own personal experiences and practice and relationships with RS.
In this way, you do more to make RS look bad, than any number of critics or bloggers or ex-satsangis.
If you want to know who is making a bad image for Santmat and RS, then go look in the mirror.
I am telling you this not to put you down, but rather to get you to see that the best way to give respect and support and a good reputation to Santmat and the RSSB, is to act with tolerance and respect towards others (even if they do not agree with you or believe in Santmat). Your business is simply to follow whatever spiritual path or persuasion that you like and choose. If other people wish to criticise RS, then that is their business, not yours. You have no business telling anyone that they cannot criticise. All philosophies are open to criticism. And eveyone is entitled to their opinions. But you are here personally criticising the critics. If you don’t like or cannot handle to hear cricism of Santmat/RS, then simply go somehwere else. No one made you come here. This site is an open discussion. You have no business telling people that they don’t understand Santmat or that they cannot criticise Santmat or any other spiritual philosophy. People have a RIGHT to criticise any spiritual belief, path, or philosophy. But no one has any right to criticise other people personally, simply because they believe in something. I don’t care that you believe in Santmat. You are free to believe as you wish. I reject only your criticism and intolerance of people simply because they don’t agree with you and your rigid beliefs.

About Harinder:
I have a few more observations, and some responses.
Hareinder said: “why the present Master’s style seems tougher.”
— I disagree. Charan Singh was not less tough at all, and he would never have put up with the kind of shenanigans that I have observed are typical behavior of many of Gurinder’s more recent disciples. Charan also did not try to re-package/re-invent Santmat so as to have more appeal to westerners. Charan was tolerant but strict where it counted, and he did not deviate from tradition. Gurinder is not strict and not tough at all… other than trying to control and curtail free speech. He is simply running the RSSB business ($$$) in a much more agressive manner, and acquiring property and expensive luxuries.
“Too many people ‘skate on the surface’ of Sant Mat. They selectively hear what they want to, and ignore what they do not want.”
— You concern yourself far too much with other people. That is not the way of Santmat. You have no position or authority or right to be judging the sadhana of others.
“Tucson did not understand that the initiate also takes vows that he/she must honor.”
— Wrong. I am 100 percent sure that Tucson understands this perfectly, and even much more about facets of Santmat that you have no idea about at all.
“to continue ‘eating chickens’ and having sex with multiple partners, and so on, that initiate is still in love with carnality.”
— That is not necessarily true. It depends on other factors.
“How can the carnal be allowed to rise to the spiritual. Carnality must be overcome.”
— No, that is not necessarily the case.
“But after 20 years of initiation, should Tucson even haved asked such a question?”
— He asked that question for another different reason that has so far eluded you… mainly due to your narrow-mindedness and mistaken presumption that Tucson somehow does not understand Santmat.
“The Living God cannot manifest until the temple has been cleared of carnality and carnal desire.”
— That is simply NOT true.
“That is the law and it is logical and just.”
— THIS here is the real “pedantic” stuff that George has been falsely attempting to tack on to me. In fact most of Harinder’s comments are pedantic.
“with Master Charan Singh’s seemingly ‘kinder and gentler’ style, they continued to ‘skate on the surface’.”
— That is not true at all. That is a gross misrepresentation of the way Charan was. It is a distorted picture. I know first-hand much about how Charan was, and also about how his disciples were.
“So the present Master has toughened the message, so people understand Sant Mat is not a free ride – there is serious work involved.”
— Bullshit. I don’t agree with this at all. Gurinder’s so-called “message” is but a superficial deviation from tradition.
“Underneath is the same kindness of the former Master.”
— No, I don’t agree. There is NO comparison between the two at all. None.
“all you need do is observe the present Master’s own reverence to his predecessor”
— That really proves nothing… and it is irrelevant anyway, whether it is true or not.

Harinder wrote: “Even Tucson who was a follower for nearly 20 years under the former Master asked (see above posts) whether the Master was not bound to honor his commitment to an initiate who ate chickens and slept with plenty of women. That suggests Tucson did not understand that the initiate also takes vows that he/she must honor. It is not just a matter of contractual obligation – wanting something without giving something. Harinder wrote: “There is a deeper principle involved. If an initiate wants to continue ‘eating chickens’ and having sex with multiple partners, and so on, that initiate is still in love with carnality. How can the carnal be allowed to rise to the spiritual. Carnality must be overcome. But after 20 years of initiation, should Tucson even haved asked such a question?”
–You missed the whole point that I was trying to demonstrate how absurd the whole ‘four lifetime’ dogma is.
I made vows within a conceptual framework which is no longer real for me. It is a ghost that went up in smoke. I owe nothing to a phantom.
It took me over 20 years to realize the folly of this idea of heaven being somewhere other than right here and now and the folly of effort to be this presence that already is.

Tao
“The fact that you seem to doubt me and to challange me on this matter, tells me that you somehow assume that you know more about RS than I do…”
— I am simply requesting evidence or substantiation for your assertions, which is exactly what you were asking Harinder for. If such a banning on internet communication was widely published, surely there should be something on the web to validate this. I do not know one way or the other, but am looking for evidence of the truth.
“quit defending posters and trolls who post blatant fundamentalist rhetoric”
— these ppl happen to believe in their views as much as you do about Dzogchen. it is therefore difficult for them to sit idly by when you refer to their god(s) or beliefs as fundamentalists, pigs and general f’ckwads. I realise this may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone agrees with your viewpoint. You can challenge ppl without resorting to personal vitriol. To be quite honest, as soon as that happens, its not an ego-war, it simply gets my hackles up.
“That dzogchen is simply Awareness. (there is not some other ‘state’ apart from awareness)”
— Thats not how the wiki defines dzogchenm, it defines it as the natural state of every sentient being. I would like to know what this so-called natural state is? Human beings for example have many states, each having their own awareness, and many diffeent individuals have their own states. We are capable of dream-states, drug-induced states, hypnotic states, and a myriad of different conscious states depending on many factors – which no-one has managed to scientifically pin-down or prove – so the existence of some sort of ‘natural’ state is news to me.
“Someday you’ll try to pull that shit-ass attitide on some dude like me, and he’ll beat the living crap out of you. And punks like you, deserve it.”
— poor poor taste, resorting to violent threat, so indicative of character. i am not intimidated by you in the slightest. We know nothing of one another physical prowess, but i’d say there’s a good chance that i’d absolutely break you and you’d be the one to deserve it. As I say, u need to go back to india for another 20 years and learn some tolerance instead of picking fights or threatenig ppl who disagree with you. Its your aggressive attititude which is in fact lowering the tone of this forum, and getting ppl who are prepared to stand up to your bluster involved (whom you conveniently label as trolls).
“And you obviously don’t know what fascism means. Fascism is when the State merges with the Corporate, and vice versa.”
Facism is a noun to describe someone (be it an individual or country) that wished to impose their autocratic or dictatorial control or beliefs on others. Moreover, fascist regimes or individuals are by their nature intolerant and often violent in trying to suppress and control the views of others.
My definition of you as a fascist is spot on and you have proved it repeatedly.

You can wrap yourself in a shroud of pseudo-knowledge and spirituality and peace to all, but it masks very thinly a fascist thug that comes out all too easily. Fascists are bullies. Often all thats needed is someone to stand up to them.

Thanks for clarifying, Tucson.
This is the second time you have referred to this philosophy as ‘dogma’. This suggests to me that either you never accepted it truly, nor understood it at the level it needs to be.
No need to reply – I know you disagree. It is clear that like tA0, you probably also disagree that the physical body is a carnal or animal entity; and therefore for you the body is a source of ‘heaven’ here and now.
To me and others it is equally a trap into webs of craving and suffering. But that’s what makes the world go around – diversity. Good luck to you and all the best.
For you (I extrapolate – perhaps incorrectly) that heaven here and now means the freedom to have sex with multiple partners and eat the flesh of chickens and other slaughtered animals, drink beer and alcohol, and so on.
I now understand your concept of ‘heaven’. It is your ‘God-given’ right to live your life as you see it, and enjoy the pleasures you see fit to.
As George Orwell once said: “You pays your money and you takes your choice”.
The Unseen Force I have referred to has certainly created extremely powerful blandishments and pleasures for those It prefers to keep in the physical kingdom.
Best wishes.
Harinder.

“It is clear that like tA0, you probably also disagree that the physical body is a carnal or animal entity”
— I do not say that. However, I also do not regard and define the human body in the same conceptual duality, and in the same religiously oriented negative fashion that you seem to regard the body.
Harinder said (to tucson): “you have referred to this philosophy as ‘dogma’. This suggests to me that either you never accepted it truly, nor understood it at the level it needs to be.”
— That is merely your own false presumption of an intellectual superiority, leading to judgemental bias, and in the end is merely only your own personal opinion… not inviolable truth.

Harinder,
You said: “This is the second time you have referred to this philosophy as ‘dogma’. This suggests to me that either you never accepted it truly, nor understood it at the level it needs to be.”
–I don’t think you understand the term “dogma”. Dogma is a system of beliefs, a tenet, or point of view that is put forward as authoritative without adequate proof. Have RS teachings been proven to you? You may believe, but that is different that knowing. It is true that Sant Mat claims that its cosmology and tenets can be proven in the “laboratory” of meditation, but until this is seen by the follower it must be taken on faith alone. It is a belief in dogma…unproven authoritative beliefs.
Sant Mat is a process of “becoming” rather than just “being”. In just being, becoming is automatic. In trying to become, we can never just be.
While some satsangis may theoretically “die while living”, the vast majority must wait until death to find out if the master is able to take them to God. Why do they bet everything on this unproven chance? Devoting a lifetime to scrupulous, compulsive avoidance of fractions of eggs or rennet for a “pie in the sky” promise? Thousands upon thousands of hours of meditation trying to break through a barrier that may not exist? Blind obedience to a “master” who may be in the same boat as they? Living in guilt if a vow is broken or “impure” desires are entertained? Denial of what life brings because it is too “worldly”?
Sant Mat denies this life and this moment, and peace is always around the next corner, a light at the end of a tunnel, but never present. In Sant Mat you are never really home until you are out of this body or dead.
You said: “No need to reply – I know you disagree. It is clear that like tA0, you probably also disagree that the physical body is a carnal or animal entity; and therefore for you the body is a source of ‘heaven’ here and now.”
–I see the body as what it is..a body. I don’t distinguish between carnal and spiritual. Life just is as it is. I no longer even know what ‘spiritual’ means. Sure, I know what it means to many. It refers to religion, non-physical perceptions having to do with God or higher planes or angels or psychic phenomena, all concepts and practices relating to divinity or achieving it, enlightenment, afterlife, etc.
I no longer have such concepts about this immediate presence. It just is. Nothing holy about it, yet it is ‘ultimate foundation’, ‘reality’ or whatever you want to call something indescribable. But since it is already present, I have no need to pursue it. How do I go to where I already am? This is not some grandiose claim. You can say this too. Nothing special about me, but IT is very special and at the same time nothing special at all…as ordinary and extraordinary as right now.
You said: “To me and others it is equally a trap into webs of craving and suffering. But that’s what makes the world go around – diversity. Good luck to you and all the best.”
–As you relax into acceptance of what is, cravings and suffering diminish. Why deny our humanity and this life? It is here to live consciously and fully, not to resist as some sort of sin. You are here right now, but you miss the grandeur of this moment because of your dream of something greater beyond…a pie in the sky. That’s for the Puritans… all these concepts of hell, sin, heaven and karmic retribution. That one must be pure to see God. Well, the good news is awareness is always pure and you have this awareness now. It will always be ‘yours’ wherever and whatever the circumstances may be. Even whatever ‘state’ of mind you may be in. (That’s for you, George.)
You said: “For you (I extrapolate – perhaps incorrectly) that heaven here and now means the freedom to have sex with multiple partners and eat the flesh of chickens and other slaughtered animals, drink beer and alcohol, and so on.”
–Heaven to me is those things AND the absence of them. You are hung up on what you perceive as the evils of sex and chicken flesh. Sex is just sex and chicken flesh is just chicken flesh. Beer is just beer. Don’t you see? They are not barriers to anything. The only barrier is the concept about them you build in your mind. Allow yourself to accept and live life as it comes. If sex is happening, enjoy it. If not, that’s fine too. If you don’t want to eat chickens, don’t. No big deal.
You said: “I now understand your concept of ‘heaven’. It is your ‘God-given’ right to live your life as you see it, and enjoy the pleasures you see fit to.”
–I live life as it presents itself. I live in freedom without conceptions of how it should or shouldn’t be. If it is pleasurable, so be it. If not, so be it.
You said: “As George Orwell once said: “You pays your money and you takes your choice”.”
–I have found that choice is only an appearance. ‘I’ am lived rather than the other way around. I do not live, living is ‘I’.
You said: “The Unseen Force I have referred to has certainly created extremely powerful blandishments and pleasures for those It prefers to keep in the physical kingdom.”
–That’s up to IT. Let IT be. So be IT.
Hope this helps. Best wishes.

There is another reason why people are involved in Sant Mat, even though they find contradictions in the teachings.
It’s a great hobby. It’s escapism – just like a movie that takes you away. Every movie has its plot holes and asks you to ‘suspend belief’ for a little while – but they’re still fun. Some people just get an escapist ‘hit’ from Sant Mat, just as some people get a kick out of organised religion despite it being full of contradictions.

Tucson,
I must say that your last post of comments is one of the most right-on, clear and simple and down-to-earth, and wisest comments ever posted on this blog.
In fact, you have articulated my own personal views and sentiments probabaly even better than I could.
I like and I agree with your comments so much, that I would like to add extra emphasis by repeating (quoting) those that I am in most perfect agreement with here (which will also clarify to any other readers, what my own views are as well):
Tucson wrote:
>>> “Sant Mat claims that its cosmology and tenets can be proven in the “laboratory” of meditation, but until this is seen by the follower it must be taken on faith alone. It is a belief in dogma…unproven authoritative beliefs.”
>>> “Why […] bet everything on this unproven chance? Devoting a lifetime to scrupulous, compulsive avoidance of fractions of eggs or rennet for a “pie in the sky” promise? Thousands upon thousands of hours of meditation trying to break through a barrier that may not exist? Blind obedience to a “master” who may be in the same boat as they? Living in guilt if a vow is broken or “impure” desires are entertained? Denial of what life brings because it is too “worldly”?”
>>> “Sant Mat denies this life and this moment, and peace is always around the next corner, a light at the end of a tunnel, but never present. In Sant Mat you are never really home until you are out of this body or dead.”
>>> “I see the body as what it is..a body. I don’t distinguish between carnal and spiritual. Life just is as it is.
>>> “I no longer even know what ‘spiritual’ means. Sure, I know what it means to many. It refers to religion, non-physical perceptions […] concepts and practices relating to divinity or achieving it, enlightenment, afterlife, etc.”
>>> “I no longer have such concepts about this immediate presence. It just is. Nothing holy about it, yet it is ‘ultimate foundation’, ‘reality’ or whatever you want to call something indescribable. But since it is already present, I have no need to pursue it.”
>>> “How do I go to where I already am? This is not some grandiose claim. You can say this too. Nothing special about me, but IT is very special and at the same time nothing special at all…as ordinary and extraordinary as right now.”
>>> “As you relax into acceptance of what is, cravings and suffering diminish.”
>>> “Why deny our humanity and this life? It is here to live consciously and fully, not to resist as some sort of sin.”
>>> “You are here right now, but you miss the grandeur of this moment because of your dream of something greater beyond…a pie in the sky.”
>>> “… all these concepts of hell, sin, heaven and karmic retribution. That one must be pure to see God. Well, the good news is awareness is always pure and you have this awareness now.”
>>> “It will always be ‘yours’ wherever and whatever the circumstances may be. Even whatever ‘state’ of mind you may be in.”
>>> “You are hung up on what you perceive as the evils of sex and chicken flesh. Sex is just sex and chicken flesh is just chicken flesh. Beer is just beer. Don’t you see? They are not barriers to anything.”
>>> “The only barrier is the concept about them you build in your mind.”
>>> “Allow yourself to accept and live life as it comes. If sex is happening, enjoy it. If not, that’s fine too. If you don’t want to eat chickens, don’t. No big deal.”
>>> “I live life as it presents itself. I live in freedom without conceptions of how it should or shouldn’t be. If it is pleasurable, so be it. If not, so be it.”
>>> “I have found that choice is only an appearance. ‘I’ am lived rather than the other way around. I do not live, living is ‘I’.”
>>> “Let IT be. So be IT.”
So again, and to prevent any confusion, all of the above quoted comments do in fact speak and reflect (as well as clarify) my own personal views, insights, and conclusions.

Ditto to tAo’s praise, tucson. I enjoyed your comment also. One of your better ones. Some day you should write a definitive exposition of your philosophy. I’ll make it into a blog post.

Tucson:
I have already mentioned a couple of times that everyone is following a different destiny and can believe or accept what they want.
Rather than rehash the things I have said over and over, let me address one of your counter-arguments, which I am copying here:
“As you relax into acceptance of what is, cravings and suffering diminish. Why deny our humanity and this life? It is here to live consciously and fully, not to resist as some sort of sin. You are here right now, but you miss the grandeur of this moment because of your dream of something greater beyond…a pie in the sky. ”
Sant Mat IS the acceptance of here and now. That is what you perhaps never understood. Meditation is not trying to find ‘pie-in-the-sky’, but trying to find the highest essence of oneself. It is the attempt to discover who we truly are, instead of merely living according to the instincts of the body and the urges of the mind. There is no blind obedience to a Master, but the acceptance of a guide.
You refer to the ‘unproven chance’ that a higher reality may exist, that ‘retribution’ or consequences that may ensue from living in the now. But you are also taking a big chance – that those consequences and retributions may truly exist. In fact you are taking the bigger chance. There is one thing you do know for certain. That the life that you have and wish to enjoy free of ‘guilt’ will end. You seem to assume that will be the end of it. But what if there are consequences? What if the chickens and lambs you eat today do get justice? What if it turns out there is retribution?
(Do you remember the movie ‘Silence of the Lambs? Even the psychopathic killer Hannibal was able to relate to Clarice Starling’s nightmares at the screaming of the lambs being slaughtered, though it did not prevent him from slaughtering those he wanted to.)
I am forced to repeat what I said to Brian. Did you choose to be born where you were? It was not your choice to be born as human. You or I could have been born as animal, bird, insect or bacteria. Even if it is a random ‘Nature’ or ‘Science’ or ‘Evolution’ that is making these decisions – the abundance of evidence of terrifying life in the fish, animal and insect worlds should give you cause to reflect.
If that idea is too remote and unlikely to you, consider the plight of human beings. You were lucky to be born in America, a rich country. But billions of humans are born in terrible conditions and live terrible lives. You are assuming this could not have happened to you, or will never happen to you.
But even in America one can be destroyed by a bomb or be mugged or murdered. Or be trapped into an unaffordable mortgage by predatory slime motivated by greed, who have now engineered the present economic crisis. How may hundreds of thousands of Americans have lost their jobs? The once-mighty American auto industry is now in danger of vanishing. The dollar may lose its status as the world’s reserve currency. America the so-called hyper-power may be bankrupt.
Have you reflected on whether these things are simply random and chaotic, or perhaps that there is order and principle behind it all, difficult though it may be to discern that order and principle?
Our body carries millions if not billions of bacteria. The smell of our armpits, groin and excrement should warn you of its carnality, as should nails, teeth and hair and the potential of violence (anger) of its animality.
You can of course ignore (as you seem to be) these warnings. You can decide to see only the bright side.
There is no question that religion has been misused by human beings. The book ‘The God Delusion’ tries to prove God is a myth, but its principal proof is the corruptions of religion. The Puritans you refer to did not have a Master/guide to instruct them and relied on the Bible which has been the most misused scripture in history.
The Puritans were able to justify the armed conquest of North America – armed robbery in essence – and kill tens of millions of native Americans, and still consider themselves ‘Christian’. They relied on the ‘chosen people’ sections of the Old Testament to justify their theft of the continent and murder of its inhabitants by calling the USA the ‘Promised Land’ or Zion. In more recent times, that ‘Promised Land’ has shifted to Palestine, to justify America’s armed support for ‘Israel’, also taken by force and kept by force. I am not interested in starting a debate on politics here, merely illustrating how religion can be misused by blind reliance on scripture.
Sant Mat is the opposite of ‘blind’ reliance on anything. All the principles and practices of it are very deeply thought out and rational. But there is a discipline involved for reasons already mentioned in my posts – the attempt to discover the higher/spiritual dimension within our animal/carnal body. You found no evidence and concluded that the higher/spiritual dimension was a myth.
But did you consider the possibility that perhaps (and forgive me for saying so) you were lazy in understanding the philosophy and wanted quick answers. I know you will respond that 20 years was a long-time, but in the context of eternity (which you seem to deny by concentrating on the ephemeral ‘here and now’ – a point to which I will return below) it is but a moment.
Let me give a more concrete example. Let’s say you wanted to learn karate, or tennis, or engineering or whatever….. would you not have to submit to the instruction of a ‘teacher’, someone who has mastered the art in question?
Could you simply learn anything you want by yourself – (that by the way is the ego insisting on having its own way)? Take karate for instance. From your earlier messages (why shouldn’t heaven be as easy as the ‘back of my hand’,) it would seem you would like to become a blackbelt without going through the arduous training, work, sweat and labor, even pain, involved in becoming a blackbelt, or even an exponent. You want the benefits without the effort, the objective without the journey.
Now you may argue you don’t want to learn karate at all – that’s fine, but don’t lambast the martial art as being the problem; just admit you either don’t want it or don’t want the struggle involved. Or take tennis or another sport like basketball or hockey. It would appear you would like to be a Federer or a Jordan or a Gretsky without putting in the training and effort required.
In fact even the training and discipline does not explain the superstar success of these unique athletes. Thousands of athletes compete and train arduously but why do only a few achieve the ‘summit’ like success of these stars? Did you reflect on that? Was it not perhaps ‘karma’ from previous lives? But even these superstars will decline, and one day die and be forgotten. This is what Eclessiastes means when it referes to the ultimate ‘sorrow of life’ in the vastness of eternity. All creatures are mortal, and ultimately all life meaningless.
Only the ‘hidden’ Truth behind it, that never dies or changes, is real. That reality is your soul, a particle of the Ocean of that Truth. But perhaps you don’t believe anything like a soul even exists…
Take other examples. You want heaven easy as the back of a hand. Let’s take less lofty goals. You want billions of dollars without the effort, the risk…. is that reasonable? You want sex without the hassle of hitting on women….and the hurt of being rejected or dumped. Is that reasonable?
You will say you never implied this – you have a ‘take life as it comes’ attitude. As you said if sex comes take it if not don’t worry about it.
But when you originally signed up for Sant Mat, you were not given any false illusions. Even the so-called ‘4-lifetime guarantee’ was given on conditions – that the discipline implicit in the vows you took (abstinence from meat, alcohol, immoral conduct, and meditation) – would be adhered to. You accepted that agreement, being informed that discipline would have to adhered to for upto 4 lifetimes. But you found the going hard and gave up after 20 years (or in Brian’s case 35 years). Now you blame Sant Mat as an empty and unreal philosophy. But in truth it was your expectations that were unreal and your commitment that faltered. You found the price too high. You wanted to have ‘chicks’ (sex) and chickens – your heart was not in the right place as far as the demands of that way of life required. The fault is not with Sant Mat – it is within you.
You were told what the path entailed when you signed up, but you ‘dropped out’ after 20 years. That is your decision. But that does not mean the path is illusory. What it means is you are more interested in the ephemeral (and therefore illusory – when compared to the vastness of eternity) pleasures of this life than attempting to discover whether a higher existence exists. You are saying Mount Everest is too hard to climb, and for you, not worth the effort. In the mountain’s case we know it exists. In the spiritual case, you are saying prove to me that it does exist.
In the process, as said above, you are taking perhaps the bigger chance. You are betting on what you can see and feel, and choosing to ignore the possibility that something higher exists because the effort and discipline involved is too much. But you are also taking a risk. What if that higher existence does exist? What if your preference for ‘chicks’ and chickens leads to thousands of rebirths in lower animal or even insect bodies?
If that seems too absurd (tA0 questions my mental health in an earlier post) consider this: What if you are stricken by cancer or some such debilitating illness in this life? What if you are stung by betrayal and heartbreak by friends and family? What if you are reduced to grinding poverty and disability?
Surely you can see from life around you that such things do happen? Or do you imagine that such stuff could never happen to you?
I quoted an age-old axiom “the unexamined life is not worth living”. What you are saying is you prefer the unexamined life, as the examination is too tough. That is your choice. But do not assume it comes with no consequences or side-effects. You too are taking a risk, and as far I am concerned, the vastly bigger risk.
Master Charan Singh in fact used to refer to this type of attitude by people, in most of his discourses. You should know if you were listening. ‘Ai jagg mittha, agla kinn dittha”. Which means: “I love this world, who has seen the next?” He called it the attitude of those who are ‘asleep’, unaware of the unseen world, and of the principles underlying this world.
You either never truly accepted or believed or understood what he said. Or if you did, you now reject it. That is fine. You choose the waking sleep of what Jesus called the ‘dead’, which has been misunderstood by Christianity. In one incident when one of his followers asked for leave to bury a relative, Jesus said ‘let the dead bury the dead; you come with me and be saved”. Or something to that effect. The title of the movie “Eyes Wide Shut’ alludes to the same thing – living without true knowledge of what one is, and where one is.
There is a deep philosophy in Sant Mat that you apparently never accepted or understood – sorry I am forced to repeat myself. Our strivings, whether for ‘chicks’ or chickens or other things, are no different in essence from that of animals. Whether fish or fowl, animal or mammal, bird or bee, all creatures have physical cravings and lusts, greeds, etc. The human animal is the one creature who also has the unique capability of attempting to rise above those cravings and instincts, instead of being simply driven by them, as non-human creatures are. This is therefore a unique opportunity to transcend materiality. But you are too much in love with matter (including chicks and chickens) to either understand this or accept the discipline of abstinence for upto 4 lifetimes as a small price to achieve eternal freedom from matter. You think matter is all there is.
If this sounds too esoteric to you, have a look at “I Love you Man” the Hollywood comedy now playing. Consider the superficiality and selfishness and carnality of the relationships shown in it – where a woman discussing her engagement is told by her female friends she made a great choice because her fiance ‘goes down on her’ 6 times a week. This is not a high existence. It is something I would like to be freed of. But I guess not you.
As for Brian, his congratulatory comment to your post only confirms (at least to me) that his 35 years of lecturing were empty – that he merely parroted a philosophy he never truly embraced or meditated on. A parrot repeats words it has heard, but never knows what it is talking about.
Sant Mat is not just about the spiritual meditation. That attitude of reflection is meant to permeate one’s entire life – it is meant to foster a study of the true nature of relationships, the selfishness, cruelty and ‘dog-eat-dog’ nature of this world, and thus ‘disengage’ or ‘disattach’ from it.
But that stuff means nothing to you guys, I guess.
I still wish all of you the very best.
Harinder.

Harinder, you are astoundingly single-minded in ignoring what other people say, and parroting your own beliefs. You’re not really conversing here. You’re preaching. That probably is why you’re getting frustrated with not being heard. You’re not listening.
Regarding your repetition of the claim that I didn’t believe in Sant Mat during the 35 years I practiced it, wrote books about it, and spoke about it, previously I told you that this was ridiculous, a lie, because I truly did accept the Sant Mat precepts. Why do you keep repeating the same untruth? Haven’t you heard that “sat” (truth) is the essence of Sant Mat? When you choose lies over truth, you disown the Sant Mat that you adore so much.
Also, I happen to be a black belt in karate, so your comments about martial art disciplines caught my eye (most of the rest of what you said, you’d already said, and I skipped over it).
What I’ve found, after 18 years of so of martial arts training, is that reliance on a teacher, or sensei, steadily diminishes as you progress. If this isn’t happening, you aren’t learning a martial art. Similarly, by your reasoning, a disciple of a guru should become less and less dependent on his or her “master.”
This is exactly what has occurred with many of those who visit the Church of the Churchless, including me. We have learned enough to feel confident in continuing our spiritual/mystical practice on our own, or mostly on our own (we all lean on other people, this being an interdependent world).
Bruce Lee, one of the greatest martial artists of all time, didn’t believe in the word “master.” See:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2007/11/time-to-fire-ou
Bruce Lee was a Taoist, a freethinker, not a fundamentalist who followed a rigid path. See:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2005/09/kung_fu_meditat
Bruce Lee advocated “formless form,” not repetitive patterns, such as religions and strict meditation techniques call for. See:
http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/2004/12/congratulations
So this shows that the martial arts metaphor doesn’t really prove you point. It actually shows the opposite: that if we’re not steadily becoming more independent of a teacher, we aren’t learning anything.
[The links above aren’t auto-linking for some reason, so you can’t click on them and go to the post. To find them, you can enter “Bruce Lee” into the search box in the right column of this blog, and Google will find the posts on my blogs where I’ve mentioned Bruce Lee.]

Harinder,
“Meditation is not trying to find ‘pie-in-the-sky’, but trying to find the highest essence of oneself. It is the attempt to discover who we truly are, instead of merely living according to the instincts of the body and the urges of the mind.”
—So meditation is a series of, “trying to find” and “attempting to discover” processes?
—Harinder, with your meditations, have you any finds or discoveries?
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

I agree with Brian when he says: “Harinder, you are astoundingly single-minded in ignoring what other people say, and parroting your own beliefs. You’re not really conversing here. You’re preaching. That probably is why you’re getting frustrated with not being heard. You’re not listening.”
Yes, and I feel frustrated in not being heard as well. Not that I expect or require complete agreement or comprehension of what I have said, but I feel there is such an astonishingly vast chasm in our perceptions that much further conversation is useless. All I can do is rub my forehead and say, “Good Grief!”
You have so many misunderstandings and erroneous assumptions about Sant Mat and my experience with it and what I have tried to express about life that I don’t even know where to begin in response. I feel that if I were to take the time to elucidate, it wouldn’t help and would be a waste of time.
I suggest you immerse yourself in Sant Mat, see what happens, and forget this forum. It’s a waste of time for a satsangi. You have a lot of simran and bhajan to do. Get crackin’.

Could someone direct me to a post I read some time ago but cannot find: it related to a former satsangi who was at the dera, was even on ‘guard’ duty for Gurinder outside his home, and said something to the effect of ‘I never really meditated the required amount, once I meditated for 2 hours, but the rest was just haphazard’ – am I imagining things or was there such a post?

Yoyo, I don’t recall such a post, or a comment. You could scroll down to the Google search box (right column of this blog) and type in whatever words you want to look for. Just make sure the “HinesSight” button is still checked, so you’re only searching my two blogs instead of the entire Internet.

Harinder,
The sheer overwhelming volume and length of your comments makes any response/discussion tedious and time-consuming. And no one here is interested in sorting through so much one-sided preachiness. You would be better to make your comments much shorter and to the point. Your continual closed-mindedness and lack of receptiveness to what others (like Brian and Tucson) have related, has become annoying and wearisome, not to mention frustrating to respond to.
Nevertheless, I will try to comment on a few things that stand out in your last (and very lengthy) post.
You said:
“Sant Mat IS the acceptance of here and now. That is what you perhaps never understood.”
— First, you really should (or must) refrain from this repeated insinuation that people “never understood”. The people that you are debating with most (namely Brian, Tucson, and myself) ALL understand far more than you will ever know. It is both uninformed and rude to continue repeating: “That is what you perhaps never understood.” YOU are the one who does not understand what others have been telling you about themselves. YOU are the one who does not undertand that Santmat is not the one and only way. And YOU are the one who refuses to quit preaching.
Apparently, you do not care that others have different viewpoints, experiences, and goals. It seems that your agenda is to preach as much as you can until Brian has no other option but to remove/ban you from this site. You are not being considerate or respectful to the rest of us. We are NOT interested in your obsession with Santmat dogma. This site is NOT some venue for you to preach Santmat. We all know the teachings. Like I told you, it is people like you who give Santmat and RS a bad name. And obviously you are not an RS initiate, because you are repeatedly violating the RSSB’s internet prohibition.
So what are you? Who are you? What is YOUR point? Why are YOU here? Have you actually read anything that others have spent much time and effort to share and present to you?
And why don’t you share something interesting about yourself, instead of your endless absurd attempts to ridicule and discredit Brian, ignore his patient admontions, as well as willfully misconstrue almost everything that Tucson and I have explained to you.
“Meditation is not trying to find ‘pie-in-the-sky’, but trying to find the highest essence of oneself. It is the attempt to discover who we truly are, instead of merely living according to the instincts of the body and the urges of the mind.”
— I don’t totally agree, but why do you assume that Santmat is the ONLY way to overcome “the instincts of the body and the urges of the mind”? And why do you assume that the rest of us here need to do that? Why do you feel so drioven to preach to others, when you know nothing about other’s sadhana or their spiritual attainments, etc?
“There is no blind obedience to a Master, but the acceptance of a guide.”
— That is not what is written in the RS literature.
“that ‘retribution’ or consequences that may ensue from living in the now.”
— Everything is always only in “the now”, whether you accept and understand that, or not.
“But you are also taking a big chance – that those consequences and retributions may truly exist.”
— It is clearly a mental illness to think, to believe that there are “consequences and retributions” for living in the present. You are trapped in a web of fear and repression based upon religious dogma.
“There is one thing you do know for certain. That the life that you have and wish to enjoy free of ‘guilt’ will end.”
— Life and death are two sides of the same coin. But this “guilt” is your own sickness. Don’t try to impose it upon others. You have no right and no business imposing your twisted guilt-ridden morality upon others.
“what if there are consequences? What if the chickens and lambs you eat today do get justice? What if it turns out there is retribution?”
— That is not your problem or concern. It is none of your business what other people do, or what if any consequences there are.
“It was not your choice to be born as human. You or I could have been born as animal, bird, insect or bacteria.”
— No. You do NOT know that. You can not know what is the case for others. You can only speak for yourself.
“You were lucky to be born in America, a rich country. But billions of humans are born in terrible conditions and live terrible lives. You are assuming this could not have happened to you, or will never happen to you.”
— However, YOU are assuming that there are, or that there will be, other “lives”. Human and animal suffering is an unfortunate fact of life, and it requires much compassion, but fear is the mind killer. The fear that you have and that you promote, is founded in ignorance. Fear is the ultimate suffering. So how does someone like you, who obviously lives in fear and ignorance, propose to know and project someone else’s fate or destiny? That is absurd.
“But even in America one can be destroyed by a bomb or be mugged or murdered.”
— You are trapped in fear, which arises from duality, which is due to ignorance.
“Our body carries millions if not billions of bacteria. The smell of our armpits, groin and excrement […] its carnality, […] its animality.”
— You are too pathetic Harinder. Your consciousness is on a very low mundane level. Your mentality is extremely life-negative and pessimistic. THAT, is what is sad. You fail to see the beauty of the pageant of life, in all its darkness and light, sadness and joy. You are stuck in duality.
“I am […] merely illustrating how religion can be misused by blind reliance on scripture.”
— But then you are misusing Santmat by blind reliance upon its scriptures and savior-cultism.
“Sant Mat is the opposite of ‘blind’ reliance on anything.”
— Incorrect. Santmat relies heavily on the words and teachings of the so-called ‘Sants’, as well as great reliance on the authoritarian master/guru/savior figure.
” there is a discipline involved […] the attempt to discover the higher/spiritual dimension within our animal/carnal body.”
“You found no evidence and concluded that the higher/spiritual dimension was a myth.”
— I never said that I “found no evidence” or that the “higher/spiritual dimension” is a myth. But many of the ideas about that are indeed myths.
“you were lazy in understanding the philosophy and wanted quick answers.”
— “lazy in understanding the philosophy” you say??? That is clearly not the case for Brian, Tucson, or myself. So I don’t know where or how you can arrive at such a nonsense assumption.
“in the context of eternity (which you seem to deny by concentrating on the ephemeral ‘here and now'”
— Eternity is not something that you can have any handle upon. It is meaningless for you to use that as an arguement. Life is lived in the “here and now”. Eternity is merely a concept. But the “here and now” is not ephemeral. Only form is transitory. The instant “here and now” is timeless. But you can not and will not arrive at this understanding through parroting and adherence to dogma.
“You want the benefits without the effort, the objective without the journey.”
— No. Life is the journey…. and Reality is ever-present.
“Was it not perhaps ‘karma’ from previous lives?”
— Karma means action. Karma is simply direct action…. here and now action. It is not anything to do with “previous lives”. The “previous lives” thing is something altogether different, and it is merely an idea, a philosophical belief.
“All creatures are mortal, and ultimately all life meaningless.”
— No so. You should definitely go read and study the book ‘Mans Search for Meaning’ by Dr. Viktor Frankl.
“Only the ‘hidden’ Truth behind it, that never dies or changes, is real. That reality is your soul, a particle of the Ocean of that Truth.”
— That is merely only one philosophical viewpoint among many. You obviously are not very well versed in the varities and schools of eastern philosophy.
“when you originally signed up for Sant Mat, you were not given any false illusions. Even the so-called ‘4-lifetime guarantee’ […] the discipline implicit in the vows you took […] You accepted that agreement, being informed that discipline would have to adhered to for upto 4 lifetimes.”
— That is an absurd “guarantee”, even an absurd idea altogether. It can never be proven. Nothing beyond this life can be proven. It is blatantly fraudulent for Santmat/RS to make any such claim or promise. Yet people – seekers – are naive suckers and are still willing to suspend all reason and logic for such myths.
“But you found the going hard and gave up […] Now you blame Sant Mat as an empty and unreal philosophy.”
— No, that is not so in my case. Santmat was a piece of cake to me. Santmat appeals to neophytes. And I don’t see it as “empty and unreal” either. I simply no longer have any use for it. I simply grew or awakened beyond the dualism and theology of Santmat/RS.
“it was your expectations that were unreal and your commitment that faltered. […] The fault is not with Sant Mat – it is within you.”
— I am aware that you are respnding to Tucson here, but fyi: You have no idea of the nature and the path and the fruit of my own sadhana. You have not a clue. So you have no knowledge and no right to make any such nonsense judgements.
“You are saying Mount Everest is too hard to climb, and for you, not worth the effort.”
— Well I have not climbed Everest… but I have climbed Kangchenjunga and Annapurna and Dhaulgiri. Have YOU?
“What if you are stung by betrayal and heartbreak by friends and family? What if you are reduced to grinding poverty and disability? Surely you can see from life around you that such things do happen? Or do you imagine that such stuff could never happen to you?”
— Harinder, you have no idea what other people go through in their lives. So you have no right to judge them. And I myself have been through more in this life than you could ever possibly imagine in your insulated little world.
“What you are saying is you prefer the unexamined life, as the examination is too tough.”
— Tucson is not saying that at all. Not even remotely.
“As for Brian, his congratulatory comment to your post only confirms (at least to me) that his 35 years of lecturing were empty – that he merely parroted a philosophy he never truly embraced or meditated on. A parrot repeats words it has heard, but never knows what it is talking about.”
— THAT my friend, I must say…. is a description that fits YOU far more than Brian. YOU are the one parroting and preaching Santmat. And YOU are the one who knows not what he is talking about.
“I still wish all of you the very best.”
— Well I too wish you the best as well Harinder. And I also hope that you will expand your horizons and embrace the mystery.

Yoyo,
The poster that mentioned the things that you indicated was named “Sid” as I recall.
I could be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure thats who was talking about being outside Gurinder’s home etc.

Thanks to tAo for tackling a series of incorrect, misconstrued assumptions, beliefs and misunderstandings presented by Harinder. I admire tAo’s ability and willingness to do this. Harinder should appreciate it.
Harinder wrote: “”But you found the going hard and gave up […] Now you blame Sant Mat as an empty and unreal philosophy.”
“it was your expectations that were unreal and your commitment that faltered. […] The fault is not with Sant Mat – it is within you.”
–This is typical of your faulty assumptions and misunderstandings. I never ‘gave up’. There was never any ‘Oh, this is too hard, I quit’. Sant Mat just gradually sloughed off like an old skin. It was no longer applicable like training wheels on a bike. I now prefer the freedom of the infinite unrestricted by the fetters of dogma and conditioned, relative belief.

Harinder,
You stated,
“In the process, as said above, you are taking perhaps the bigger chance. You are betting on what you can see and feel, and choosing to ignore the possibility that something higher exists because the effort and discipline involved is too much. But you are also taking a risk. What if that higher existence does exist? What if your preference for ‘chicks’ and chickens leads to thousands of rebirths in lower animal or even insect bodies?”
— Harinder, in your own words, could you describe what the “higher” existence is?
—Or, describe the “higher” existence, based on the spiritual training, you have received.
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

I did. I found something better. Say, if you will, that it is just replacing one thing with the other and I will be the first to joyfully agree: I found Jesus (who was there all the time if I’d cared to look). I do still hear the mantra when I try to sleep sometimes (I was in the cult over 33 years and only came to Jesus 6 years ago), but I find that using the gift that the Holy Spirit has provided in the form of the Holy Language has helped. It is, after all, merely a battle of good vs evil.
Try Jesus. I’ve had life with Him and without Him. With is sooooooooo much better!
Joy Fulheart
http://www.libertychurch.org

Dear Brothers & Sisters
Forgive me for my intrusion but I have been directed to this blog by others to address points raised here about the validity of a spiritual path and its purpose, especially concerning Sant Mat.
My brief background is that i have been an initiate of the present Master, Sant Sat Guru Gurinder Singh Ji of Beas in India since 1993. By His grace i have been blessed with greater knowledge than mere books or intellectual debates can provide and i would like to briefly share a little of this with you all simply for clarity, as many serious questions and concerns have been raised.
I am not a great writer so please forgive any errors you may find, but i will hopefully convey the correct meaning of what i have been given by the grace of the Master, so thank you for your patience!
Also, i am not here to preach to anyone, nor engage in intellectual debates about truth v non-truth as that is not the purpose of my visit here today.
The mystic path of the saints/gurus/masters/etc is as old as time and has been taught in one form or another since souls have been in existence in the manifested creation. It is a path of true science, using the laboratory of the human body to discover it.
All the true(highest) Saints try to explain the purpose of human birth, with its reasoning capabilities, as a two-road journey.
Firstly, it can be used to enjoy the world it finds itself in to the maximum level it can attain until its natural death, facing all the consequences along the way, now and in the hereafter, OR, secondly, human birth can be used to discover the ultimate reality of existence for oneself, and in time then join that reality in permanent bliss.
Everyone here has only those two options and yet there are those who belong to neither option (path) – they are the seekers of absolute truth(God)or the seekers of mere knowledge(science). I believe that many of those seekers of both truth and knowledge are commenting their views here, whether they are on a spiritual path or not! So I hope they may find some clarification in this simple but personal knowledge.
The ultimate truth of life and existence is far beyond the ken (ability) of the mind but i shall try to express it here in near accurate and perhaps revealing terms.
The concept of GOD:
If one is fortunate enough to see the reality first-hand, one can see that that reality is present within each living entity, whether in latent form or in active form. That reality is called the ‘soul’ in today’s terms. That soul is of the same reality in every living thing, whether human, plant or animal, etc. It is the essence of GOD (Creator/Power/Shabd/whatever you like to call it) and therefore all living things are in fact potentially God.
In the beginning, there was only Itself (God) without manifestation of Its glory, but then, by Its will it became manifest, i.e. it became the creation and all that inhabits it. A veil of illusion (maya) was created to separate the god-entities(souls) from their Source(God) in order to bring about the divine play (the stage and the players). The object of that play is worship of the Source, and the journey of the soul to obtain that worship and to unite itself with its Source to complete the process, is the natural expression of Divinity. That is the simplest way it can be explained at this stage of mind and intellect as it is more complex than that in reality, but nevertheless this is the essence of it!
In this process of creation duality became manifest, i.e. God and the souls. Each soul was given a script to follow that was embedded into its making (termed sanskaras)and sent into the manifested creation, with all its trials and tribulations, eventually reaching planet Earth and then eventually the physical form of a human being.
All levels of consciousness or regions that exist between the physical world and the Source(God) exist with degrees of greater awareness of the Truth/Source. Sant Mat terms these as regions or levels of consciousness and these are to be accessed only within the human body, for that is the Divine Law in this current form of creation.
Nothing else exists except for God in various forms, which makes up the entire creation! Indeed, it can be correctly argued that God is therefore as bad as It is good, as all aspects of reality have come from God. So God is not only love, God is evil too, but this good and bad are mere illusory expressions of Divinity that only exist in the illusory part of creation, such as here on Earth.
So now the scene is set for the Divine Play to run its course. Each soul has been given a role to play, whether that of a devil or a saint, and all roles in between. For those who are privileged to know this truth (of destiny), they are unaffected by the role they have been given, because they know it is only a play and that there is no reality in it.
However, for the vast majority of others, whose time for enlightenment has not yet come, they indulge whole-heartedly in the pleasures or miseries of this play as their egos(identities) are fully developed and as such they are convinced of its reality. To complement this, a universal law was created to run the whole show and Saints term this as karma, with its birth and death cycles of cause and consequence.
Now, from the God’s point of view the souls who inhabit various bodies play their parts well, maybe that of a villain even, but they are still all God’s manifestations, so God is not affected by who is loving whom or who is killing whom, and so on. Souls themselves are indestructible, but certainly bodies can die and minds become dormant(abandoned in higher stages).
God therefore enjoys the play where God plays all the parts and worships Itself through the manifested creation.
So in reality there is no rite and wrong as each one of us has no choice in the part they have been given to play, but there are indeed consequences that have to be met as a result of playing that part.
So life is NOT fair from a human point of view, but is a perfect play from the God’s point of view. Even Guru Nanak admitted that “this is a very cruel play” when he was separated from that reality, but then when he merged with the Creator he said “it is only a play and there’s no reality to it”. So such is life in its simplicity.
However, all is not hopeless for those souls who are ready to go back to their source and escape this play and its traps. Eve though the soul is already God in essence, it doesn’t remember that at this stage. After countless existences in different life forms, etc the soul takes a human birth.
Saints come into this creation to ‘save’ the lost souls who are ready to go back home through the process of following a perfect living Master at the time the soul is alive. They follow His/Her instructions, and under the Master’s guidance, they slowly, slowly go back to their Source.
Depending on their roles, they may take one to four lifetimes to go back to their Source, but some can take longer, depending on the strength of the attachment to their ego.
Significantly, for the initiates of a Perfect Saint, the Saint stands as ransom to the ‘court of absolute justice’ for the karmic stock of their initiated souls(disciples) at the time of disciples’ death, whether the Saint appears to the disciple in Its Radiant form at the time of death or not! The latter benefit only happens to those souls who are attached to their Saint(Master) or are attached to the quest of the absolute Truth of the Path of Sant Mat and whose humility and devotion are well developed. It does not occur to those with highly developed egos of pride and of duality, even if they have a lifetime of meditation to their credit!
Nevertheless, the disciple who must return to this creation will usually be born in better circumstances for their spiritual progress than in their previous birth, though some who followed more carnal (animalistic) traits may have to spend some time in an appropriate lower species to endure the suffering they have caused whilst in human birth till they are rid of that trait and can rejoin humanity.
The attitude that one should have for those blessed with Naam from a perfect Saint is a natural one, i.e. not pretending to be something they are not, and humbling themselves before the Truth whilst following the instructions of their Master as best they can with passion in their hearts for the absolute Truth.
Then, even if hardly any meditation has been achieved or some of the vows not strictly adhered to, but the attitude was always one of guilt and self-improvement, then they may not have to return to the physical form at all – so attitude is most important, more than strict following of the vows i would say!
Just be your natural self, be honest to yourself and dont be too hard on yourself or others, but definitely do the best you can with a sincere heart and dont worry about the results. Rest assured that there are no failures in Sant Mat ultimately, there are only delays if a disciple strays for a while.
For those with a sincere, kind and humble heart their Master will certainly turn all their failures into successes so have no fear if no benefit is seen yet, as you may also have to convincingly play your worldly part in this world for a while before that treasure is handed to you!
Sant Mat, as it is written in the books, is only a fraction of the absolute Truth and to debate at length about the meaning of this or that phrase is a useless exercise for the true spiritual aspirant as the books are only there to create interest in the Path, and at best can offer an ABC account of the absolute Truth and at worst only provide confusion, to make one question the purpose of human life, whichever suits the seeker or disciple best!
Even the satsangs and the Saint’s questions and answers offer much of the same as the Saints have to say something and are even sometimes playful, whereas sincere meditation offers complete knowledge in the end, for some sooner, for others later. But then also, even meditation itself is less important for those with a highly developed spiritual nature – so it depends on individual cases how much meditation is required to reach the goal! Love for, and absolute devotion to, the living Master is certainly the quickest way for those who have the courage or the means to do so.
Rite attitude, genuine humility and sincere devotion to the Truth are the mainstays for any potential spiritual aspirant, as well as obedience to their Master, if they have one, all else is but a preparation for this state of being. In fact, a living Master is absolutely necessary to gain access to the higher realms as this is the Divine Law, which will become apparent when one enters the third eye where all is revealed!
I hope this resolves a few matters that have been raised on this blog since it began and may you all achieve your higher goals. Never feel disheartened if you have so far failed, or if you are not yet ready to make that commitment to a spiritual way of life, as everything comes with time when the seeker or disciple is ready.
There is no harm at all in questioning the Path of the Saints or trying out various other methods first because at least you are looking for the Truth and that is more valuable than you can possibly imagine. If you are sincere in your quest you will eventually be led to that highest Truth.
Thank you once again Brothers and Sisters and God bless you all!

James Mann… I’m trying to understand you. But am having some difficulty.
Let’s see:
(1) You say, “Also, i am not here to preach to anyone, nor engage in intellectual debates about truth v non-truth as that is not the purpose of my visit here today.”
Then you leave a 2,090 word comment, which is about twice as long as a blog post that I consider LONG. Yet you believe you’re not preaching, or engaging in intellectual debate. My blunt response:
Bullshit. You’re preaching, and debating. Get real.
(2) You shared a bunch of thoughts about the theology or philosophy that you believe in. A Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, or whoever could have done the same. What makes you think your thoughts are more believable than any other religious person’s thoughts?
(3) You sound very dogmatic and fundamentalist. It appears that you consider your chosen faith to be the only True One. What evidence do you have for this? As noted above, why should anyone believe you more than a Christian who says that Jesus has revealed Himself within his/her heart and mind, and he/she knows with certainty that the teachings of the BIble are true?
Bottom line for me: thoughts are different from reality. You seem to be viewing the two as identical. Meaning, what you believe in your human brain, or have experienced personally, you consider to be objectively true for everybody.
That’s a giant assertion. It shouldn’t be accepted by anyone without demonstrable evidence, just as the claim of any other religion shouldn’t be. Reality is too precious, truth is too important, to be treated like thought candy — something to be grabbed and swallowed capriciously.
I usually don’t publish long preachy intellectual fundamentalist comments. But yours was such a good example of preachy intellectual fundamentalism, I made an exception. Please, never again.
Speak as much as possible in your own words, as your own self, if you want to engage in further comment conversations on this blog. Merely repeating dogma isn’t very productive. A mechanical computer can do that.

Mr. Mann,
At the beginning of your novel, you mentioned,
“The mystic path of the saints/gurus/masters/etc is as old as time and has been taught in one form or another since souls have been in existence in the manifested creation. It is a path of true science, using the laboratory of the human body to discover it.”
—This paragraph was the beginning of the babble…..yes, the dogma is as old as time, and a path of true science sounds kinda silly.

Hello Mr. Mann,
Thankyou for coming to this blog. Please
have all your friends come here too.
But, you may find after you become enlightened,
you still don’t know
if there is an afterlife. The Guru
has not met God and doesn’t know if
there is an afterlife either.
http://radhasoamis.freeyellow.com/index.html

Hello Mr Mann,
You sound intelligent, please be broad minded my friend. How do we know RS is the path?
Also disregard the secret history link, its crass, sorry Mike aka Zakk, I’ve done my research and it turns there are some facts that are true, but the vast majority of it is not true.
If you want a different perspective on RS, look at Radha Soami by Mark Jurgenmeyer

Mr Heinz beans,
Never feel disheartened if you have so far failed, or if you are not yet ready to make that commitment to a spiritual way of life, as everything comes with time when the seeker or disciple is ready.
I think you better read these words carefully Brian, lol.

Mr Mann,
Very typical satsang from you. Everything that you have learned, nothing new to say. Kind of robotic even, brain washed, conditioned, programmed. Very scary.
What have YOU discovered from following these teachings? Do you really know that these Masters are such that we have been told? How do you KNOW that Gurinder is that highly evolved soul that you believe he is?
As a Charan initiate and having met so many people like you I understand that you are doing your best in every way to succeed on the path but unfortunately sometimes we wake up and realize that all we have bought into is a belief system and we have no proof whatsoever.

Hey Mann,
What you have presented is pure dogma..a classic example of such.
According to Merriam Webster dogma is “a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.”

tucson,
“According to Merriam Webster dogma is “a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds.”
—this needs to be presented, regularly….

Mr. James Mann, you said,
Nevertheless, the disciple who must return to this creation will usually be born in better circumstances for their spiritual progress than in their previous birth, though some who followed more carnal (animalistic) traits may have to spend some time in an appropriate lower species to endure the suffering they have caused whilst in human birth till they are rid of that trait and can rejoin humanity.
….It was totally different during the regime of Hazur Maharaj CharanSingh. The disciple if born again will be born in better circumstances and never in a lower specie, irrespective of his karmas, as it is stated in The Master Answers( Q-447 and Q-448).
…. I wonder why the present Master Babaji Don Gurinder Singh Dhillon has completely changed the rules, is it because he is strict? or is he not as much powerful as Hazur Maharaj Charan Singh? Or is the change directly from the Lord.