Another RSSB initiate bites the dust

Dear Fred,
I am greatly impressed to see an exhaustive, minutely detailed and researched document on SM. After doing so much for such a long time, you appear to have not made the desired progress on the inner path.
On the contrary, many illiterate persons in India even in my close family have
made phenomenal progress. If you ask me how do I know it? I can only say that it is the evolving attributes in the people whom you see all through for decades.
I began to attend satsang in 1968 and got initiated in October 1981. It was quite wonderful but slowly slowly when I engrossed myself in sewa, no activity on this earth attracted my attention as much as much sewa and other satsang activities.
As told very often that one should continue to remember death and God always. As a child, I followed it in word and spirit. One fine morning I developed a feeling that I must commit suicide and used to weep for no reason.
I knew an old initiate of Maharaj Sawan Singh ji whom I knew that he used to spend 10-12 hours of the day in meditation. He was my great grand father. Very often I used to go to him in such situations to seek solution from him.
I never used to tell him my problems but he would come to know at his own. As I sat next to him, he asked my welfare and after a few minutes he stated the following incidence of his life.
“He (Babu Purushotam Singh) said at age of 21 when he was married. He started preparing posters and pasted them of the walls of his bed room stating that one must remember God and death always. Soon neighbors realized the problem with newly wed boy. They advised him to go for a movie etc, He further told that he came across the literature that one should not remember the death always and rather attend to meditation.” There was a hidden reply to my problems. Slowly the time passed by and things became normal
Subsequently, I wanted to leave sewa and I left it. You will not believe it that I felt so light and a free bird. But at the core my heart, I know the meditation alone is the path to inner realms. Nothing more can be shared. SM is not mathematics. Things come at their own.
I do not have much to share with a stalwart like you.
Wishing you a nice time ahead,

“Things come at their own.”
Very well put. We do not know all the variables involved in ones awakening to oneness.
It appears that when the mind is ready to awaken then it will awaken and no amount of individual effort can cause it to happen.
I suspect there is a whole host of variables involved in this awakening process and mediation being one of those significant variables and life experiences being another and significant emotional events in our lives being another.
Not sure I agree at this time that meditation alone is the path to the inner realms. As stated above I suspect there are many variables involved to finding the truths that exist all around us. But I do agree that meditation is one of those significant variables.
Some people have profound mystical experiences and have not meditated. Why is this if mediation is the only path? Could they have been deep into meditation in a past life and the mystical experience comes to them in this life?

Rakesh writes:
“On the contrary, many illiterate persons in India even in my close family have
made phenomenal progress. If you ask me how do I know it? I can only say that it is the evolving attributes in the people whom you see all through for decades.”
You simply cannot know with any certaintly that such people have “made phenomenal progress”. Progress in what? The goal of Sant mat is not to gain “evolving attributes”. Just because some people’s outward behavior improves somewhat after taking up Sant Mat, does not prove that there has occured any real spiritual progress. It all depends upon how and what you define “progress” as being. I don’t consider changes in personality and outward social behavior, or even mlore peace of mind, to be any certain proof of spiritual realization. Millions of people lead better lives after taking up religion, but that does not equate to actual spiritual realization, liberation, enlightenment, or what have you. So I must really disagree with you when it comes to your presumption of simple-minded illiterate Indians making “phenomenal progress”. I don’t buy it. And I think that you are also romanticising the esoteric a bit by saying that.

Brian,
You might want to check-out the “Recent Comments” Links. Some of them are not functioning at all and also they don’t access, or rather show, the respective comments. Some comments that have been posted are not showing up at all, even though the links are there in the menu.
If you fix it, you can then of course delete this comment.

Fred,
It is refreshing to see a (ex) satsangi thinking so clearly and independently which is discouraged in Sant Mat..the mind is the negative power and all that rot. Congratulations on waking up to being normal. I know the feeling well.
When Charan passed on I still had one foot on the path, so to speak, but when I saw Gurinder, my RS ship began to sink fast. My intuition was shouting “warning” “warning”.
Now, many years later I have no regrets. Leaving the path may leave you with a feeling of being in a spiritual no man’s land, but I wouldn’t be in a hurry to fill the void with some spiritual process or another. That will come if it must, but without a structured belief system I think you have the opportunity to be free, as you are, in this present moment. This is a great thing, and the more you delve into it, it is the only thing..just this, as it is now.
Have fun!

Rakesh wrote: “I know the meditation alone is the path to inner realms.”
What is located in the inner realms that is not present where we are at any given moment other than different appearing phenomena? When we are here, we are here. When we are there then that will be here. Here is always immediately available and all that there ever is. When we are always thinking about getting there, then we are never fully here and will continue to be restless and unhappy even though we are already at the only place we can ever be.

“Here is always immediately available and all that there ever is.”
Speaking materialistically this may be the case but speaking in terms of perception and reality our “here” has many different levels of awareness.
We might be fully here but are we fully aware. Being here is not being aware.
Surely someone that cannot see the subtle but profound difference between sympathy and compassion cannot claim that we are always fully aware.
Something happened to me just 2 hours ago that showed me the difference between sympathy and compassion. Karma did its thing again just like it just did to Tao on the parrot comment.
Driving home from this incident I realized that I had shown sympathy but not compassion. The journey on the path to awareness continues. We are gods in the making never realizing we are always that that is. That is the power of ignorance. But without that ignorance (i.e. innocence) oneness cannot express its dynamic potential.
At this point of our human evolution compassion is a rare response from most humans including myself. In an out of body experience over 17 years ago I did experience telepathy, a life review, and compassion. Nothing that I have experienced on this earth realm even comes close to this experience.
We do not forever remain in our ignorance unless you are into the advaita religion and they appear to love to remain in ignorance, but hey they are always here.

For Fred… before he bites the dust.
Take this prescription and feel better in no time:
I.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5-zMV1x6q0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ6Ey1MrWyc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_-P5NntJ8Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUn7tSNHkMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ietCeAgLs3I
II.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-EVxtEpyMM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZROHDq0M1y8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPzmjpM2ey0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsbTEx20YCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HLRmDQJ-Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6L1AKrioZs

To willliam:
It appears that you really do not listen to, or comprehend, anything that anyone else says.
And its probably because you are in such denial that you don’t want to admit that you are wrong evn when it is a very minor instance.
Such as: As I already told you, I deliberately posted twice for a reason, and not because of any supposed “karma” as you continue to insist upon, and against the facts.
This simple incident reveals the fundamental crux of your mental problem… and for all to see. Sadly, your credibility is nearing rock-bottom… zero. The more you say, the bigger fool you show yourself to be. If you weren’t such a neophyte, and had any sense at all, you would restrain yourself from posting further BS.

Dear Tao,
I have gone through your comments. You are absolutely right. In some people, being on and following some spiritual path, the outward appearance changes, they begin to behave sensibly and their whole attitude towards life changes; does not qualify that they have achieved something spiritually.
To put forth my view point, I may say that the inner core of the earth is solid. I have not seen it. But attributes of the testing media reveal so. This inadequate example may let you feel the spiritual progress of your fellow beings.
I regret my inability to put the things in words. Yet I strongly believe that there is a medium of understanding beyond words as well.
Everything can be refuted in words but everything can not be expressed in words.
I am absolutely clear that I am not romanticizing with words.
With regards,

Tao: my words have hurt you deeply for that I apologize. I wish I could say I feel compassion but compassion is beyond most human’s response contrary to popular belief.
We in the world and America know so little about compassion even in the 21-century we are having debates about what is torture and how should be torture our captives.
You do the name Tao a great injustice by using it. I hope someday you will come to see that and out of humility want to change to another name.
What a profound statement Jesus is given credit for making and that is the meek shall inherit the earth. We humans have a long journey ahead of us to achieve that meekness. I have found very few people in the world that understands that very simple phase. Dr Hora being the exception.
Again my words were harsh and for that I apologize. I was only proving a point in my research about the paradigm effect and how certainty comes from doubt not a knowing beyond knowing as the Buddhist state or understanding as Dr Hora teaches.
My cause I doubt was noble as people were hurt. Yes I proved my point but at what cost? I have learned much from posting on this blog thank you all for that.
Bless you all
William

William,
You have sealed the deal. After reading your stunningly dense 6:14 pm response to my comment, I am now fully and finally convinced that it is indeed utterly futile to attempt to convey to you what I am trying to say. You can only hear yourself.

Tucson and Tao,
Hopefully, this back and forth debate with William will end. These long winded threads give me a headache.
I like it when you two write a simple common sense essay on a particular topic. Then a follow up comment to clarify the issue.
Maybe, we can get back to that routine…
Roger

Tao,
The following comment that you made above, is an example of what I enjoy reading. It makes much sense.
“You simply cannot know with any certaintly that such people have “made phenomenal progress”. Progress in what? The goal of Sant mat is not to gain “evolving attributes”. Just because some people’s outward behavior improves somewhat after taking up Sant Mat, does not prove that there has occured any real spiritual progress. It all depends upon how and what you define “progress” as being. I don’t consider changes in personality and outward social behavior, or even mlore peace of mind, to be any certain proof of spiritual realization. Millions of people lead better lives after taking up religion, but that does not equate to actual spiritual realization, liberation, enlightenment, or what have you. So I must really disagree with you when it comes to your presumption of simple-minded illiterate Indians making “phenomenal progress”. I don’t buy it. And I think that you are also romanticising the esoteric a bit by saying that.”
Excellent comment…
Roger

Roger wrote: “Hopefully, this back and forth debate with William will end. These long winded threads give me a headache.
I like it when you two write a simple common sense essay on a particular topic. Then a follow up comment to clarify the issue.”
–Thanks Roger and as far as I’m concerned the debate with William has ended. I admit to letting his incredibly sophomoric attitude get under my skin a few times. I’m sure tAo knows what I’m talking about.
Hopefully, in the midst of the pettiness was some ineresting content, but it was getting repetitive and no one was getting anywhere a long time ago. The blog is here for debate and discussion, but enough is enough. I agree.

Ahhhh Fred. You are now ready to gird up your loins and wander into the lions cage of opposition! Go to Yahoo Group called Radhasoamistudies. Watch this clip for tips.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=79i84xYelZI
The lion is David Lane. Mostly bored with the whole thing by now. The yappy little dog? Well, take your pick. Though many qualify, some swear it is poster Hoormji.

To all. I was a member, initiate, and follower of Sat Mat many many years ago. I traveled to Beas. I’ve had many spiritual experiences. I had it with people being spiritual,, and organizations.
I think the problem was it was ‘The Path of The Masters’,, not the Path of The Seekers.
I’ve finally found what I’ve been looking for.
Yall should read ‘The Power of Now’. Maybe it will send you in a better direction.
jackson

Get out the shovel.
Hi. I’m an RSSB initiate. My name is _____.
Two years ago, during a period of pronounced depression, for the first time in my life, I sought professional help from a psychologist. I was longing to spill my guts. This lady swiftly took the wind out of my sails by declaring her technique – go home, make a list of your beliefs and come back and see me when you’re done. I left that office feeling more depressed and certain that she was wrong to say that to me.
On reflection, I’ve realized that I’ve been working on that list since that day, mentally identifying belief-thoughts and simultaneously questioning their validity. This process has led me to gradually abandon much of what I had gathered from RSSB. But I’m not left with nothing.
Some of what the RSSB gurus have said and written still rings true for me, like when Sawan Singh, wrote; “Death-bed is no joke”. That one passes my tests. I also believe, to paraphrase Woody Allen, that the greatest power in the world is the power of distraction. Hey you, over here, eyes on the page.
Every time I read or hear anything RSSB, pro or con, I get out my shovel. I’m prepared to do the hard work of clearing my mind of “false and shallow beliefs”, to quote the official founder of the RSSB line of gurus, Shiv Dayal Singh. I believe that these very same gurus have fed plenty of “false and shallow beliefs” to their disciples. They have fed many chapattis and dal to the destitute. Before you start furiously typing a rebuttal that they used donor money to feed the destitute, yes, that’s true as well. Can’t seem to get a god-damned one sided coin these days.
I now live in a state of realized uncertainty and it’s not real warm and fuzzy. But I am proud of my progress and awareness. It feels like it might be what I’ve heard Gurinder refer to as “spiritual maturity”. It gives me the kind of self-confidence that allows me to read and hear slanderous words as well as blind praise of RSSB, its leaders and followers. I’ve got game when it comes to sniffing out bullshit, whether in my head or outside of it.
Church of the Churchless is obviously ironic. But also ironic are the expressions on this and other sites, by former satsangis, of feeling freedom by complete rejection of RSSB and accusations of fraud perpetrated by its gurus. I don’t believe that it’s freedom to be certain, you might say “churched”, of anything.
Please get out the shovel. It’s a great tool. It removes BS, and with it you can dig for “true and deep” beliefs, to quote myself.
Cheers

aliveandkickin,
You wrote: “Church of the Churchless is obviously ironic. But also ironic are the expressions on this and other sites, by former satsangis, of feeling freedom by complete rejection of RSSB and accusations of fraud perpetrated by its gurus. I don’t believe that it’s freedom to be certain, you might say “churched”, of anything.”
Its nice to see your progress from dogma to uncertainty… but just to let you know, since you seem to think otherwise, some of have already been there and done that. Don’t be so damn sure as you obviously are, that “ironic are the expressions on this and other sites, by former satsangis, of feeling freedom by complete rejection of RSSB”. I can see that you have some presumptions about others that are not based in fact and Self-knowledge, but merely your own ego-centric assumptions of “I’ve got game when it comes to sniffing out bullshit, whether in my head or outside of it.” – Sorry, but I don’t think so.
And you missed a belief or two of yours, because you made the mistake of being so sure of as you said, “the expressions on this and other sites, by former satsangis, of feeling freedom by complete rejection of RSSB and accusations of fraud”. That’s just not the case.
Just because you now claim to have a newfound uncertainty, does not mean that other ex-satsangis feel “freedom” by merely having simply exchanged or turned their positive beliefs in RSSB, into negative beliefs. Many of us hold no such negative certainty. And some of us do have a different type of certainty which comes from Self-knowledge. But in as much as you still hang on to aspects of RS, I don’t think that is true of you yet. But hey, ‘keep on shoveling’ (and truckin) and you’ll get there/here.
Speaking for myself, here is an example: Having already tread the over-all spiritual path as a serious yogi in India for at least 15 years prior, about 30 years ago (mostly out of curiousity) I got into RS. After about six years of significant experience in RS, I left or dropped RS completely and effortlessly. But more importantly, unlike many/most RS satsangis, I did not ever rigidly subscribe to or hold to any RS beliefs to begin with or during, and so I left/dropped RS without any beliefs either.
Whatever comments or criticisms about RS that I have posted here are not some such counter beliefs as you apparently mistakenly assume, but rather simply observations and insights.
Also, don’t be so cock-sure that you are as free of RS as you pretend or would like to be, nor that others here are somehow still hung up in a kind of certainty of negative beliefs about RS.
As it is said: “Take the beam out of your own eye first, before seeking to point out the minute dust particle in another one’s eye.” [Btw: That also definitely applies to William too]
Good luck with shoveling… but you also just might need a nice sharp axe too.

To jackson,
Its nice that you think that you found what you are looking for, and thanks for your suggestion, but I (and perhaps others) don’t need to read ‘The Power of Now’. Nor do I need to be sent in any “better direction”.
In your enthusiasm over Tolle, and your lack of attention to the over-all drift of this blog when it comes to RS, you apparently mistakenly presume that others here are somehow hung up in RS like you were.
Also, the problem is BOTH “The Path of The Masters”, AND “The Path of The Seekers.
And I certainly don’t think that Tolle has anything much to offer, other than mostly pseudo-non-dual fluff nicely packaged for mass consumption and thus money making.
Btw, when it comes to serious advaita type talks and lectures, Parsons beats (or rather pulls the rug out from under) Tolle’s jive by a hundred miles.

Thanks Tucson for the encouragement. I am certainly in no hurry to fill the spiritual void, however, the quest for reality continues. To this end, thanks tAo for the Parsons links, so much to read …

Rakesh wrote:
One fine morning I developed a feeling that I must commit suicide and used to weep for no reason….
Don’t fool yourself RakeshJi. These are signs of depression. You seems like in a state of denial.

Dear Sapient,
You are correct it was a sign of depression. I was talking of way back in 1976. It developed by keeping myself cofined to my studies as a student and madly involved in listening to satsang etc. No other activity. It was an obsession.There is no denial of any kind.
with regards,

I don’t know why you ex satsangis complain so much about the path. All I’ve read on this site is nothing but excuse to leave the path & you guys say that nothing happened to me or I didn’t make any progress. You people think that GOD is a toy which you can get so easily. I’ve not been initiated yet but still I’ve seen inner progress just by keeping faith in the master & working hard towards meditation. This is not a fairytale & you need to work hard to achieve a higher state of consciousness so my advice to all would be stop complaining like a baby & take resposibility for yourself & work hard towards meditation & I guarantee you’ll see results.

Aman Sandhu,
Who says that those at the Churchless have not progressed. They have progressed quite far spiritually. That is why they ditched the stale old RS dogma for a breath of fresh air.

I don’t understand what dogma are you talking about. No master says he is God, when books refer to him as God incarnate it only means that the soul which is the master has raised his consciousness to the level of infinite consciousness that’s all. No one is telling anyone to do seva or listen to sangat as compulsory, no one is telling yo to call the master as master you can call him a friend, a guide etc. I’m only saying that meditation should be your focus & it works but people want to shift their attention to other things like organisation, adminstration etc. which is a waste of time. A spiritual seeker should be concerned about his meditation only, even I’m not a big fan of rssb administration staff etc. but they don’t matter to me. I’m only concerned with the master & meditation that’s it. So instead of giving excuses that we are not making progress or blaiming the path one should focus on meditation because it really works.

*I’m only saying that meditation should be your focus & it works*
As a complete novice, meditationally speaking, in what way does meditation “work”?
Are you claiming that meditation has an end product, is something that operates/functions in a karmic capacity?
How has meditation worked for you? What is your proof that it works?

Aman you said: I’m only concerned with the master & meditation that’s it.
Now why hang on to the Master? Is it not a fact that you are still clinging to an idea that the Master is perfect or has merged his identity with the universal consciousness. How do you know that he has done it.
Why don’t you just meditate without the notions of the master-disciplieship (which is such a stupid duality).

Dear helen
Obviously I’m not saying I’m a saint or a master or that i’ve attained the highest state 🙂 I’m not even initiated yet but I’m only saying that when people complain about not having any inner progress & blaim the path I just feel it’s not true because inner progress happens you only need to work hard & have some faith not too much faith but enough to keep you going. You can only have complete faith when you get some experience but till that time one should not get discouraged about meditation if nothing is happening, because really believe it or no we need to get our mind pure for the divine to expand our consciousness. The problem is we all take this meditation like a mechanical thing & thus it doesn’t have the element of bhakti or devotion it’s more like science to you & I think people have started taking this word science in sant mat in a very wrong way, actually sant mat or meditation should be practiced as devotional process not scientific, saints in the past have called it science because no matter what if people follow the intructions well it gives similar results to all. The only proof I can give you is that I asked couple of my friends & relatives to meditate & believe it or not they all got same inner experience as I did which proves to me that yes it is a science in a way. Meditation works in the way that all that is said like astral planes, higher realms etc. they do exist & one can really evolve by doing meditation. Higher consciousness is not a fairy tale it really exists we only need to push harder to achieve the goal because all those theories that we need to wash our inner self, we need to become pure etc. to get some inner experience is actually true.
Dear Deepak
This guru disciple thing is not a stupid duality, you need an ideal to reach a point, you need a guide to move to higher realms inside it’s not fairy tale at all, I asked a very evolved person he is my uncle & he is a rssb follower ofcourse that is it really true that people in higher realms who do not have a guide or a perfect master do not know the way ahead & he told me that he found many such holy men inside or rather in those higher realms who did not know the way ahead. All I’m trying to say is this meditation & inner master etc. is real it’s not some stupid joke it’s actually real so don’t get discouraged even if you dont follow rssb doesn’t matter but don’t think that meditation or the path is not true it’s really out there so keep going & do not end your search, I can say that from whatever I know uptil now rssb or sant mat is real maybe not for you but many others whom I asked to meditate were not initiated either but still they all got same inner experience so there is definitely truth in these teachings.

Dear Aman Sandhu or anyone,
I was formerly associated with RSSB for a few decades. Those who frequent this blog will recognize me and will have heard this before:
I have found that following a spiritual path has no particular relevance to ‘understanding’ which can occur at any time under any circumstance. It’s a thin veil, a trick of perception that is a result of our habits and conditioning.
A spiritual path is based on the presumption of an individual that needs to go through a variety of disciplines and correct behaviors in order to purify and get rid of the ‘I’ or ego, and then achieve reunion with God.
The fundamental point that is missed is that the seeker, at every stage of this quest, is already what he/she is seeking. There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are. It is matter of looking in the right direction, which is no direction at all, to see this: that you are just a phantom, a dreamed character in a play you are playing a role in. There is no individual. No separate soul. No ego to overcome.
There are no particular qualifications for perceiving this because Absolute is perfectly present in all circumstances and has no need for special diets, disciplines or gurus.
Absolute is always present HERE whether one is loading the dishwasher or experiencing a grand vison of the universe in some exotic inner region.
When this is seen, the game of the spiritual quest appears silly, like a dog chasing it’s tail. There is nothing wrong with playing that game. It is your role in the play. Carry on, have fun, but none of it leads to what you are, which you already are, whether you know it or not. Your glasses are on your nose, silly!
What you already are is the unborn, and thus undying, Presence that is prior to all phenomena and thought..Alakh, Agam, Anami. It can’t be conceived or circumscribed in any way because in doing so it would be making an object out of itself. This is how the One becomes two, the universe manifests and the illusion of individuality begins.
The One is playing a game of hide and seek with itself. All paths lead to nowhere because there is nowhere to go. Just be as you are, really are, right now which is just fine as it is.

Tulsi Ortega has answered me for me, Mr. Aman Sandhu. If it has to happen, ithappens by itself. Effortless. Even a donkey puts in efforts and all it gets is lashes. Is it not?

Well its a slow night tonight, so I guess I’ll take up one of my minor hobbies and tear some of Aman Sandhu’s previous comments to shreds. *wink*
You know… the skeptics will love it, and the believers will hate it… but hey, you can’t please em all. But at least I’ll please my comrades. heh heh. But ummm, don’t worry folks, I’ll be sure to try to generally avoid getting too personal.
So as per my usual format, I’ll first present the quotations, and then comes the sharp-bladed “shredder”. I can hear it cranking up now…
Aman Sandhu wrote:
“what dogma are you talking about”
— What dogma? Duhhhhh… that would be the DOGMA that is written on every page of every RS book and publication, and the dogma that is constantly touted in each and every RS satsang meeting across the globe, and the dogma that is spoken by the RS so-called “master” in every satsang/darshan lecture that he gives.
“when books refer to him as God incarnate it only means that the soul which is the master has raised his consciousness to the level of infinite consciousness”
— Wrong wrong wrong. Santmat and RS absolutely does NOT teach that the “soul” is the “master”. You must be following a different RS path. And also how would you know what someone such as the RS guru has “raised his consciousness”? Not to mention the total ambiguity of the term “infinite consciousness”.
“No one is telling anyone to do seva or listen to sangat as compulsory”
— Seva and satsang is techically not compulsory, but just try not going to satsang for awhile and see how you get treated by the so-called “sangat. Just see what they are “telling” you then. Furthermore, it is said and implied by the RS teachings that if you do not attend satsang, then you will likely come under the influence of the awful dreaded Kal.
” meditation should be your focus & it works”
— How would you know what “should” be the focus of other individuals? And since you have admitted that you are not yet initiated and you have no actual experience, so how could you possibly know that “it works” ??? You don’t. You are just another joker who thinks that parrotting RS is somehow meaningful evidence. Go meditate for 30 years and then get back to me.
“things like organisation, adminstration etc. which is a waste of time.”
— Yes, a waste of time. But “organisation, adminstration etc” is precisely what RSSB is all about.
“A spiritual seeker should be concerned about his meditation only”
— Who says anyone here is a “seeker”? And what makes you think that you have any damn business telling others what they “should be concerned” about?
“I’m only concerned with the master & meditation that’s it.”
— That’s entirely your problem, not ours. We do hope you get cured soon.
“instead of giving excuses that we are not making progress or blaiming the path”
— No one here is “giving excuses” for anything or “blaiming the path”. You obviously have not been paying attention and have somehow grossly misinterpreted the articles and comments.
“focus on meditation because it really works.”
— Better if you”focus” instead of tellg others what to do. And again, how would know if “it really works”? You are not even initiated and thus have no experience that you can speak from.
“I’m not even initiated yet”
— Then why are you being such a pompous ass by trying to tell others, who btw have decades of experience, how things are?
“I’m only saying that when people complain”
— Look who’s complaining. You are the one who is complaining.
“inner progress happens you only need to work hard & have some faith not too much faith but enough to keep you going.”
— Sounds like a good receipe for religious cultism.
“You can only have complete faith when you get some experience”
— Wrong again. Faith is simply belief and assurance in things unseen. Experience does not require faith. Faith is only needed when there is no direct experience. So where is the proof and the experience?
“one should not get discouraged about meditation if nothing is happening because…”
— No one here is “discouraged”. And meditation is a very individual affair. And what do you thionk and presume is supposed to be “happening” in meditation?
“….we need to get our mind pure for the divine to expand our consciousness.”
— My mind is pure. Absoluely. And I also don’t need my consciousnes expanded. But the way you talk and what you say, it is apparently your mind that seems not to be “pure”.
“problem is we … take this meditation like a mechanical thing & thus it doesn’t have the element of bhakti or devotion it’s more like science”
— But that’s precisely what RS calls it… ‘Science of the Soul’. And bhakit is all about devotion and faith and belief, and not about science, knowledge, or proof.
“people have started taking this word science in sant mat in a very wrong way, actually sant mat or meditation should be practiced as devotional process not scientific”
— Thats your mistaken opinion, but its not the opinion of sant mat and sant mat gurus.
“if people follow the intructions well it gives similar results to all.”
— Not true. Where are these so-called “results” and how do you know that they are all “similar”? There are no reported results and experiences are not similar.
“only proof I can give you is that I asked couple of my friends & relatives to meditate & believe it or not they all got same inner experience as I did”
— How is that “proof”? And what was this “experience” that was supposedly the “same”?
“which proves to me that yes it is a science in a way.”
— Then you don’t understand the standard meaning of “science”.
“Meditation works”
— How so?
“astral planes, higher realms etc. they do exist & one can really evolve”
— In terms of Sant mat and RS, how could you know that? How do you know that “astral planes” and ” higher realms” exist? You are not even initiated. You are just an inexperienced babbling fool.
“Higher consciousness is not a fairy tale it really exists”
— Then you should have no problem proving it. And what is “Higher” about consciousness?
“push harder to achieve the goal because all those theories that we need to wash our inner self we need to become pure”
— Yes… just “Theories” is right. So where is this “inner self”, and who is it that needs “to become pure”?
“to get some inner experience”
— Why?
“This guru disciple thing is not a stupid duality”
— Why not? It may or may not be stupid, but it is definitely duality.
” you need an ideal to reach a point, you need a guide to move to higher realms inside”
— Who says? You say? How could you possibly know what other people need? Why do you think that you need to “move to higher realms”? How would you know this? You are just believing what you have been told by other people who don’t know either. Like the blind leading the blind.
“it’s not fairy tale at all”
— You sure could of fooled me. If it looks like, sounds like, smells like, tastes like, feels like, then it most likely is…. a “fairy tale”.
“I asked a very evolved person….”
— How is he “evolved”?
“….is it really true that people in higher realms who do not have a guide or a perfect master do not know the way ahead”?
— Its funny how people like you who don’t evn have half a clue, assume such things. Because there is no beginning to your ridiculous premise.
“he told me that he found many such holy men inside or rather in those higher realms who did not know the way ahead. ”
— What unbelievable rubbish. If they even existed at all, and they were “holy”, then they would have no problem. But the entire story is a fiction. You must think that we are stupid here. But your story is as stupid as it gets.
“this meditation & inner master etc. is real it’s not some stupid joke it’s actually real”
— Then prove it. Don’t come her touting fantasies and expect people to buy such subjective nonsense.
“even if you dont follow rssb doesn’t matter”
— It sure doesn’t.
“meditation or the path is not true it’s really out there”
— You got that one right.
” so keep going & do not end your search”
— Who’s searching?
“I can say that from whatever I know”
— What do you know?
“there is definitely truth in these teachings.”
— Then it should be easy to prove that. So please prove it… or shut-up.

Mr. Tao I was thinking that here people are actually interested in spirituality & somehow I thought that maybe because I could see the truth in these teachings & meditation & if I shared my view maybe some people would actually give meditation another honest try but now it seems I’m wasting my time with people like you who don’t want to even believe if someone else is telling them that yes I’ve tested this meditation without being an initiate & by just having faith in the master & giving it a try I could get results, inner experiences. Anyways you guys can waste your time in fighting & complaining about the path. I don’t think my intensions were appreciated in the right sense. I don’t give a dam whether you evolve spiritually or no, neither do I care if you follow rssb or no. I was only sharing my experience with you guys so that maybe you can also give meditation another chance but now it seems you guys a not interested in spirituality instead you are just interested in giving excuses about why you failed on the path & just bitch about rssb for your failures so anyways I only wanted to convey that if without being initiated I could get inner experiences then those ex satsangis should not loose hope & work hard towards meditation. I made the mistake of thinking that you guys are spiritual seekers & now I understood why you guys are so frustrated & why you can’t make any progress anyways may God bless everyone. Take care.

Aman, here’s the thing: you said that meditation (the RSSB variety, I assume) works. Great. An entirely reasonable follow-up question(s) is what you’ve been hearing from other commenters.
Tell us more. How does it work? What did you experience? How do you know that what you experienced is true, and not just your imagination? What “higher” knowledge have you brought back that can be shared with others?
Now, you probably would say, “I can’t talk about inner experiences.” And I’d respond, “But you just did. You said that meditation works.”
You’ve told us that you’ve had experiences in meditation that lead you to believe it “works.” So continue. Explain what you experienced.
That’s basically what other commenters are asking — for you to back up your general statement with specifics. Seems reasonable.

Aman, what in the hell are you talking about?
you write:
“Mr. Tao I was thinking that here people are actually interested in spirituality”
–how can you assume people aren’t interested in spirituality just because they argue with you?
“I was only sharing my experience with you guys so that maybe you can also give meditation another chance”
–How do you know people aren’t meditating? Brian has stated many times that he has a daily meditation practice, whether it be RSSB meditation or something else.
“now I understood why you guys are so frustrated & why you can’t make any progress”
–Who says anyone’s frustrated? I personally feel great knowing there’s a forum here where I can express my thoughts without reservation. It is those who supress their thoughts who are frustrated. And how can you say nobody is making progress? What progress are you talking about? And why do you think it’s your job to inspire others to meditate? If you have faith in the master, doesn’t that faith also mean that you believe god in human form could pull his disciples without your help?

Hello Sir Brian
You asked me what have I experienced well I’ve understood one thing by posting my very first message that here people are too frustrated even to listen to someone who is saying “hey guys listen I think it really works so please try it cause it worked & whatever you read in these books about inner vistas is actually real not imagination”. About my personal experience as always I was reading about meditation & sant mat etc. all over the net & where ever I could find anything useful to start meditation. I came across this wonderful explanation about meditation technique in sant mat it’s from the book journey to the luminous
Meditation is the process of withdrawing the attention from the world outside, and focusing it at the seat of the soul in the body, behind and between the eyebrows. This point is known as the inner eye, third eye, the single eye, shiv netra, tisra til, or the divya chakshu. In order to withdraw our attention and focus it on this point, mind must be controlled and stilled. Sit in one pose, and move not your head, limbs or eyes. Sit straight but relaxed with no tension in the body below. Sit still, please. To be still does not mean moving. Close your eyes as in sleep, and look sweetly, lovingly, intently into the middle of the darkness lying in front of you. You will see a dark veil. That which sees the dark veil within, without the help of your physical eyes, is the inner eye. Do not put any strain on your physical eyes, nor turn them upwards, for that will result in headache or heat. Pay no attention to the breathing process… let it go on naturally. There are two currents working in the body; one of motor-currents or prana or the vital-airs, and the other of surat, or attention, which gives us the sense of feeling. The Saints do not touch the prana currents which govern breathing, circulation of blood, growing of hair and nails. The pranic system of breath-control is the way of yogis and not that of the Saints. The Saints’ way is to concentrate surat or attention at the Single or third eye while mentally repeating the mantra of five charged names which act as an “open sesame” to the higher planes. Those who are initiated, repeat the Five Charged Words**, one by one, very slowly, mentally, internally, at intervals, so that your inner eye is not disturbed. Those who have not been initiated, just sit in sweet remembrance of God… repeating with the tongue of thought any name of God or Saint which you hold dear.” (Ram, HU {pronounced “HOOOOO”}, AUM {pronounced “OOOMMM”}, Allah, Yeshua, Radhaswami {Ra-da-SwaMMM-EEEE}, or some other sacred name).
As you look within, you will see a sky, or blue sky: If you look minutely into it, you will find it studded with stars, or you may see pinpoints of Light. If so, try to locate the big star out of them, and fix your whole attention on that. Then you may see the inner sun or moon. If so, focus all your attention into the middle; it will break into pieces, and you will cross it. Beyond you will see the radiant form of the Master……….become the eye itself. Go on looking constantly without a break…Any effort on your part stands in the way; let yours be an effortless effort, and you will find that your soul will be withdrawn from the body.
This information is from the book Journey to the Luminous, by Arran Stephens.
Just like everyone else here I use to try to meditate without any luck……….no vision, no experience no nothing…..when I read this from a website I gave it another try & that’s when I understood what I was doing wrong. The key to good concentration is when you close your eyes we need to look I repeat LOOK in the darkness & then things started happening, I could achieve excellent concentration & I finally say these inner skies, stars, moon etc. they were right there & please don’t tell me it was imagination cause it was as real as this physical world. I know the difference between imagining things but this was something totally different I could see this black sky filled with stars & my body felt so light like I was about to float off to somewhere. It was real very real infact more real than I expected. I had read about these inner stars etc. in the books & my previous attempts towards meditation were not giving me the results but now I understood the secret was to LOOK in this darkness like gazing in it & trying to see what is there & suddenly concentration was perfect & it got illuminated & I crossed that light to see lights of different colors & then finally I crossed those lights & saw this amazing sky filled with stars etc. & so on. Anyways I don’t want to waste anybody’s time & I’m not here to preach or do any kind of propaganda for rssb. I’m a super skeptic myself but if it’s real I had to admit it is real. If anybody wants to try it they are welcome & I told this same technique to others & they saw these lights & stars & the important thing was they never heard of sant mat & they didn’t know anything about what they would see inside so that’s pretty much real to me. Try it if you can & if it works then fine & if it doesn’t I really don’t care because I’m not getting anything out of this. I just thought we were all here to share our experience but maybe I was wrong about this site. Anyways I’m sending you this as an email & I’m also posting it on the site so anyone who wants to benefit from this can see it for yourself.
Regards
Aman

Aman,
Thanks for sharing. I didn’t like your assumptions that people don’t care about spirituality, but I appreciate the openness and honesty of your recent post.

Regarding Aman’s last two comments — I will frst address his responses to Brian, and then address Aman’s responses to me in a different comment posted separately.
Aman wrote to Brian:
“I’ve understood one thing by posting my very first message that here people are too frustrated even to listen to someone who is saying “hey guys listen I think it really works so please try it cause it worked & whatever you read in these books about inner vistas is actually real not imagination”.”
— To put it bluntly, it appears that you are not too smart Aman. No one here is “frustrated” except for you. That’s very obvious. No one here is not “listening” either. You have posted your comments and they have been read. It appears that you think that others here are somehow not familiar with the RS dogma that you tout. You act as if you have come here to teach the RS path, beiefs and meditation to people who are ignorant of it. Thats downright stupid of you, someone who is not even an initiate yet. Don’t you realize that a fair number of other people here in this forum are in fact long-time initiates who each have 25 or 30 years experience in RS and Sant mat meditation? We all have vastly more knowledge and experience in the RS path and meditation than you do. So its rather foolish and impudent of you to approach this forum as if you are here to enlighten us about RS meditation. In fact, you are making a fool of yourself and you are actually poorly reflecting the RS teachings.
“About my personal experience …. I came across this wonderful explanation about meditation technique in sant mat it’s from the book journey to the luminous…This information is from the book Journey to the Luminous, by Arran Stephens.”
— That book is NOT your personal experience, so don’t imply that it is. YOU were asked questions about YOURSELF and your ideas and experience with Sant mat, not about some other individual’s book. You have not answered ANY of the questions that I myself asked you, or any that others have asked you. Instead, you have been evasive by posting material out of some book which has nothing to do with YOU or with RS.
“Just like everyone else here I use to try to meditate without any luck.”
— Since you have admitted you have not been initiated, then you have never actually practiced the RS meditation.
“I gave it another try & that’s when I understood what I was doing wrong. The key to good concentration is when you close your eyes we need to……..”
— Again, you definitely do not need to explain the technique and details of Sant mat meditation to the initiated. You would be much smarter if you had an open mind and humility and were willing to learn from others who are much older, wiser, and considerably more experienced in Sant mat than you are.
“I finally saw these inner skies, stars, moon etc. they were right there & please don’t tell me it was imagination cause it was as real as this physical world.”
— Just because you experienced some phenomena does not make that “real”. You are obviously a neophyte and don’t even understand what or how “real” is traditionally defined in eastern philosophy. Unfortunately, just because you say that you “saw” some lights or had some experiences does not prove anything to anyone.
“I know the difference between imagining things but this was something totally different…”
— You simply do NOT know “the difference between imagining things”.
“I could see this black sky filled with stars & my body felt so light like I was about to float off to somewhere.”
— So what. Many of us have already been there and done that many many times over, and even decades ago. It simply does not prove anything.
“I had read about these inner stars etc. in the books …. I crossed that light to see lights of different colors & then finally I crossed those lights & saw this amazing sky filled with stars etc. & so on.”
— Like I and others will all tell you, such phenomena does not prove anything. The mind is able to produce all of that and more – beyond your wildest dreams and imagination, and certainly beyond your limited experience so far… but none of it proves anything.
“I’m not here to preach or do any kind of propaganda for rssb.”
— But unfortunately that’s exactly what you have been doing so far. Nevertheless, we all encourage you to stay and welcome you here. But please don’t come here with a dogmatic or preaching attitude. Because that kind of thing is annoying.
“I’m a super skeptic myself but if it’s real I had to admit it is real.”
— But those are not the words of a skeptic. As far as “real” goes, you must first understand and define what “real’ means. This has already been done by the Rishis ages ago, as well as more recently by the scientific method. None of what you have said so far meets those criteria. The traditional definition of “real” is that which is NOT transitory. Since those experiences of yours were all transitory, they are by definition, not real. Nor is there any scientific proof of their reality. They were nothing more than mere perceptual phenomena.
“I told this same technique to others & they saw these lights & stars & the important thing was they never heard of sant mat & they didn’t know anything about what they would see inside so that’s pretty much real to me.”
— Again, just because someone else supposedly had a similar subjective experience proves nothing. And so what you merely assume is “real” is irrelevant.
“I’m not getting anything out of this.”
— I would say that you have not got anything so far. But if you stay here and really listen, instead of trying to preach dogma, you may learn a few things from others here who have already been and passed beyond where you are at now, and who may help you to gain wisdom and avoid certain pitfalls.
“I just thought we were all here to share our experience but maybe I was wrong about this site.”
— We are here to share, but that does not mean share the same old RS dogma. I don’t think you really yet understand what is happening atr this site. I think you have made forgone conclusions out of ignorance. But I encourage you to continue, as well as to not take anything or beliefs for granted. And don’t put much stock in inner lights and sights and sounds. None of that is genuine Realization.
“I’m also posting it on the site so anyone who wants to benefit from this can see it for yourself.”
— But are YOU willing to really listen and hear what others have to say, and have already said? If you are sincere, then it would help if you would actualy try to answer the questions that other commenters ask you. So far, you have not. You have merely preached your agenda of meditation. You would also benefit if you refrained from jumping to conclusions about others. So its more or less up to you Aman.

Aman,
How do you “look sweetly, lovingly” at darkness?
You said: “just sit in sweet remembrance of God…”
I have no memory of God or any idea what to think of. What do you suggest? Wouldn’t this detract from the concentration and looking you speak of?
What are the five words charged with?
You said: “Then you may see the inner sun or moon.”
What do they look like? How do you know if you are looking at the right inner sun or moon? Is there only one inner sun or moon?
How do you know the radiant form of the master is the radiant form of the master and not an imposter or the wrong master?
What do you think is the value of these visons? What have you realized or learned?
Thanks

Aman,
I forgot to ask:
I found the comment above by Tulsi Ortega to be an interesting perspective, although I’m not sure I completely understand. What is your reaction to what Tulsi wrote, if I may ask?
Thanks

To Aman,
Aman wrote:
“I was thinking that here people are actually interested in spirituality”
— They ARE interested in spirituality, but that does not mean that they are interested in sant mat dogma that they are already quite familar with.
“somehow I thought that maybe because I could see the truth in these teachings & meditation”
— And what makes you assume that you “see the truth”? As kif you see the “truth”, and we don’t? You need to be more open-minded and not so presumptuous.
“if I shared my view maybe some people would actually give meditation another honest try”
— And what makes you think and assume that people here need to “give meditation another try”? As if 20 or 30 years is not aready enough? That pretty arrogant of you.
“but now it seems I’m wasting my time with people like you who don’t want to even believe if someone else is telling them”
— We don’t just “believe” just because some un-initiated neophyte like yourself appears out of nowhere and “is telling” something. Thats pretty lame of you to assume that. I don’t think you have a clue as to WHO you are talking to, much less WHAT you are even talking about. I am not trying to be rude to you, but you are in fact being rather rude and presumptuous towards the rest of us here.
“that yes I’ve tested this meditation without being an initiate & by just having faith in the master & giving it a try I could get results, inner experiences.”
— So what? You think “inner experiences” are somehow “results”? Where are these “result”? Fyi “results” (in sant mat terms) means noting short of liberation, god-realization, sach khand, enlightenment, etc. Not just some lights or sounds. That kind of thing happens all the time to alll sorts of people, and does not prove anything. Are you so new and immature to RS that you do not even understand what RS is supposedly all about? It’s not just about perceiving a few unusual inner sights and sounds. But apparently thats what it is to beginners like you.
“Anyways you guys can waste your time in fighting & complaining about the path.”
— No one here is fighting or complaining, except for you and people like you. YOU are complaining, and YOU are fighting. Just step back for a minute and take a look at yourself. This site is not an RSSB satsang site. This is a blog comment forum. We don’t have to swallow your RS dogma here. And you have no right to expect us to. And we have a right to disagree with you and whatever you post if we don’t think its valid. And did you know that in fact the RSSB has specifically published instructions and admonitions to all of its satsangi followers teling them to refrain from any and all posting and/or discussions about RS and Sant mat on the internet? So whenever you do finally get initiated, that will apply to you as well. So you better do you discussing and debating now before the RSSB clamps down on your free speech.
“I don’t think my intensions were appreciated in the right sense.”
— Your intentions were clearly to preach about meditation to people who have aready been meditating for more than 30 years. But you can change that approach at any time. It’s up to you.
“I don’t give a dam whether you evolve spiritually or no, neither do I care if you follow rssb or no.”
— But you do not and could not possibly know what anyone else’s spiritual evolvement is, so that is meaningless. As far as you not caring, thats even more irrelevant.
“I was only sharing my experience with you guys so that maybe you can also give meditation another chance”
— As I said in my other posted comment, what gives you the idea that people who have mediated for more than 3o years need to “give meditation another chance”? Thats downright absurd and ignorant. What makes you think that an un-initiated guy like you knows better than us who are initiated and have vastly more meditation experince than you? And where do you get this idea that we have gained nothing? You obviously came here with a lot of preconceived but erroneous ideas and judgements.
“but now it seems you guys a not interested in spirituality”
— Another indication of your mistaken conclusions. Who said (besides you) that we are not interested in spirituality? You don;t know what you are talking about, and you are showing what an arrogant fool you are. I think you need to start over again and appraoch this forum with a bit more humility.
“instead you are just interested in giving excuses about why you failed on the path”
— No one has given any such “excuses”, and no one has ever said that they “failed on the path”. So it appears that you have made some rather crucial mistaken assumptions, misinterpretations, and misunderstandings.
“& just bitch about rssb for your failures”
— No one has indicated any such “failures”.
“I only wanted to convey that if without being initiated I could get inner experiences then those ex satsangis should not loose hope & work hard towards meditation.”
— Why that’s kind of you, but I hardly think anyone of us here needs any such “hope” or any more “inner experiences” or any more meditation.
“I made the mistake of thinking that you guys are spiritual seekers”
— Yes, that was a mistake. But not the way you think. Not all of of us are “seekers”. Some may still be seekers, and some are no longer seekers. But then that also depends on what one means by “seeker”. But I would venture to say that we are not “spiritual seekers” like you are.
“& now I understood why you guys are so frustrated & why you can’t make any progress”
— This reveals even more the crux of YOUR problem. You keep on assuming that we are “frustrated”, and that we have made no “progress”. But you have no idea what you are talking about. Many people here are progressed far beyond you. They are not carring the load of dogma and immaturity that you are. And they have much greater and broader experience and knowedge than you do. So for YOU to say that they “can’t make any progress” is completely false and utterly untrue.
So this basically leads me to conclude that you are just another typically lame RS sycophant who is both frustrated and presumptious about initiates like us who have dropped the RS guru-cult and its theology and its dogma.
In any case, like I said, if you are smart, you will open your mind and take advantage of the combined wisdom, knowledge, and considerable experience (whatever that may be) of others who have already gone before you. If you aren’t smart, then you will just continue to remain with your head stuck in a pile of mystic dogma, and deaf and blind to the real truth all around you. It’s always YOUR choice.

Dear Brian,
You have indicated that you meditate every morning. Why? Why are you not among those “[t]here” who don’t need “any more meditation”?
Robert Paul Howard

Dear komposer
Thanks for understanding my point. As I said before I didn’t write these things to talk about rssb frankly speaking I’m tired of so many satsangis I mean the huge number & I know most of them 90% are there just to follow something without understanding & not willing to put hard work in meditation. Only few people practice meditation with full vigor.
Dear Tao
I really don’t want to waste my time with people like you so God bless you!! & have a nice journey to the absolute 🙂
Dear Benito
What I’ve understood is “look sweetly” is basically we need to LOOK, stare or gaze in this darkness I remember in my failed attempts in meditation I never paid to much attention to this darkness I would just try to feel the centre of my forehead & do simran of any holy word I liked but after reading this I started looking in the darkness like watching that dark screen & doing simran of anything doesn’t matter & then I started seeing those lights etc. You don’t have to think about God just forget about God’s form because we don’t know how he looks like & maybe for some people they don’t even believe he exists. Just look in the darkness & do simran or repeatation of anything you like to calm the mind. I don’t know what those words are charged with cause I’m not initiated yet but maybe they do contain some subtle energy of the master which may help you to connect with his consciousness since we are all connected or maybe they may help in calming the mind sooner then the usual way. Those moons & suns looked like lights to me but they were different & had more radiance I think they are called sun or moon because they have some similarity with them like moon light looked like white radiant light but not the ones which I saw earlier it had the starry sky in the background also. I didn’t see any radiant form because maybe I’m not initaited yet or maybe I’m not advanced enough. What I learned from these experiences was first thing I noticed was I was something different than my body, it was like I was in some other place but my body was not there only I existed nothing else, so I guess I did learn that I do exist without this body which for me is a good thing I dont know about others. Secondly these inner vistas made me realize that there is something beyond this physical world which we can see & saints who spent their lives talking about this were telling the truth & now it gave me more courage that yes maybe this whole mombo jumbo of sant mat which many think is stupid is actually more real than we think so it gave me more courage to see more deeply into these teachings & where they lead. I agree with tulsi but one thing I would like to say is that reading about this stuff is something totally different & when you read you form your own imaginative ideas about how this vision would look or how this would feel but from my experience I can say that when it does happen & when you see it yourself the experience is totally different & there’s no way you can imagine this stuff which you see in these experience. You may imagine in various ways but when it happens it completely exceeds your wildest imaginatoin.
Dear Sir Brian
I would also like to hear your answer which Robert Paul Howard asked you.
All those who think I’m here to preach or talk about rssb please get this straight
PLEASE DON’T JOIN RSSB!! There are enough people in this organisation & most of them don’t meditate & then complain they don’t see anything or nothing happened so please if you think I’m here on rssb’s behalf then please get your heads checked. I would love if there were no followers behind the master & I’ll have enough time & opportunity to talk to him or learn from him alone that would be GREAT!! just like the old mystics & their students I guess hahahaha!! 🙂
Anyways those who want to try the technique please do if something happens & changes your life & makes you a believer then well & good if not I really don’t care so PEACE TO ALL!!!

For Aman only,
Please do not vomit out the hard earned experiences that you have achieved by chewing bitter pills of meditation.It is not going to help you or us by any means.
Lest you should repent later………..
with love,

Rakesh Bhasin and Aman,
Be happy in your illusions. I prefer to be disillusioned.

Dear Rakesh Bhasin
Yes sir I’ve seen the truth in the master’s words that we should not open the bag of diamonds where no one has even the slightest idea of what a diamond is. I’m not going to waste more time on this & I’m happy I’m at least open to higher experiences, all we need is a little faith & determination to give our best in meditation & not take bhakti or devotion to the lord as some scientific experiment. I guess it’s this scientific attitude which is the hindrance in ones spiritual progress. I guess when time comes every soul will see the reality & make the journey back to it’s source. Thanks for the advice & take care sir.
PEACE TO ALL!!!
Regards
Aman

To Tao and Aman (if he comes back) or anyone,
Tao, you’re getting too good at this “shredding” business. A neophyte like Aman wouldn’t/couldn’t attempt to address the issues you raised, so he just “copped out”, tucked his tail under and ran like a coward from a tough opponent. Your challenges were fair, and I think he was discourteous not to have given you the respect of some response to your well-written comments.
Also, I don’t think he had the capacity to grasp or consider what “Tulsi Ortega” wrote above, so he ignored that altogether. He didn’t know what to make of it.
Finally, I am unimpressed with his descriptions of “inner” experiences of suns, moons and stars. It is easy to read about something, then parrot it and claim it for your own which I suspect he has done.
I have had dreams that were more spectacular and informing than what he described. I think we all have at one time or another.
This is the problem when someone discovers Sant Mat teachings without the advantage of exposure to a variety of philosophical approaches to “Absolute”. There is no perspective to make an informed decision and it is easy to get duped.

Dear tucson
Keep telling yourself that 🙂

To all EVOLVED SOULS of CHURCH of the CHURCHLESS 🙂
I’m sorry guys!! I should have considered that after 20 30 40 years of trying your best you guys couldn’t achieve anything on the path & that’s the reason why you are so frustrated with sant mat & rssb. What does a person like me know about meditation & spirituality. Please continue your efforts to tell the truth about RSSB & dogma of sant mat. May all new comers like me benefit from your failures. I deeply apologize if anyone got hurt I only wanted to share information nothing else. Mr. Tao I agree I should learn to be humble & not charge in & condemn you all for not succeeding on the path. I think I’ve learnt from this excellent forum & expert meditators how to fail & waste so many years in such stupid pursuits. Thanks for saving my time or else even I would have been here just like you guys & bitch about rssb & sant mat in 30 to 40 years time.
Thanks for failing & setting an example for us to learn from.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL!! 🙂

Robert, I enjoy meditating. That’s why I meditate. I don’t know what else to say.
It’s the same reason I do lots of things. Because they’re enjoyable to do.
I no longer meditate out of a sense of duty. Who am I supposed to be dutiful to?
I like to explore and experiment with my consciousness. We all do this every waking moment, of course, but settling down and simplifying what’s going through my mind every morning is pleasurable to me.
For me, it’s nice to start off the day with some quiet meditation time. Others don’t need that, but I miss meditation when I’m not able to do it — which is rare.

To Aman as well as other readers,
Regarding Aman and his folly:
Aman, As I suspected and anticipated, in your knee-jerk defensiveness and your repeated failure to understand what I clearly presented to you, you have completely missed the point Aman.
You again evaded and refused to answer even on question that I asked you. That shows that you are nothing but a pathetic fraud and you are not here to discuss the issues.
This is not a board for you to proselitize RS dogma. Sant mat is one of the many issues that Brian often raises here, and all aspects of it are discussed. Your evasion and refusal to participate in any reasonable discussion and/or debate reveals your underlying intent here.
Furthermore, you have repeatedly made false and erroneous assertions that the rest of here are supposedly “frustrated” and have “failed” and have had no success from our decades of meditation and spiritual sadhana. Both of those assertions are totally false and without substance.
No one here is “frustrated” except for you and that’s more than obvious in all your comments; and no one else here that has pursued spiritual sadhana and meditation for many years has been either unsuccessful or has not had any significant “progress”, insight, or realization. Yet even after that has been made clear to you, you have repeatedly continued to fdalsely assert otherwise. What is your problem dude?
But I do know what your problem is. You are a neophyte poseur who desires to one-up other satsangis who no longer subscribe to the RS guru-cult or its theology and dogma. But that does NOT mean that ex-satsangis have had no “progress” or “success” in spiritual sadhana and meditation as you so ignorantly and erroneously assert.
Almost everything you say about others here is either unfounded, blatantly false, or just foolish nonsense and retaliatory rhetoric. You can run away from here like a coward if you must, but you have only proven what many of us already know about RS guru-cult sycophants and poseurs like yourself.
I really tried to be sincere in my questions to you, and also to go out of my way to welcome you to really participate in genuine and intelligent debate here, but unfortunately for you, you have chosen to remain pathetically narcissistic, self-possessed and contracted, and outright defensive.
Therefore, you are obviously not truly interested in really understanding spirituality or sant mat mysticism. You think you know it all. But you are nothing more than a shallow and phony parrot of borrowed dogma, just like the many other Radha Soami (initiated) satsangis that you have so foolishly criticised and have tried to differentiate yourself from.
But you don’t have to remain that way. You can still join with us if you would simply put aside your false assumptions and your immature egoic posturing and your borrowed dogma, and just listen to what others (who are far more spiritually experienced, insightful, and enlightened than you are) have to relate and share about Santmat as well as spirituality over-all. You don’t have to give up your meditation, and no one expects you to. Just don’t come here trying to tell others what is real and foist sant mat dogma on them.
But I suspect, since you have failed to be open-minded after being presented with repeated opportunities, that you will just continue being immature and take your little toys and go run away and hide and pout, and tell yourself that we are just a bunch of spiritual losers. But that will be entirely your loss and your folly, not ours. You are not impressing anyone here by acting the way you have. So why don’t you cut the crap and stop trying to teach others about sant mat, and just join the party.
It’s still up to you.
Oh btw, one more thing… You stated the following:
“I would love if there were no followers behind the master & I’ll have enough time & opportunity to talk to him or learn from him alone”
— You are dreaming Bro. Its high time for you to realize that RS is a huge guru-cult where you are, and will remain, an insignificant nobody. I would encourage you to become self-empowered and to realize the divinity within yourself. Go the path of the true Sages. You don’t need to grovel at the feet of bogus gurus and fraudulent cult leaders like G.S.D. and religious myths like Radha Soami. Liberate yourself and discover your own true nature.
Tat Tvam Asi

A PS (Post-Script) for Aman:
Aman,
Fyi, no one here is impressed or fooled one tiny bit by your rather stupid childish Smiley Faces or your phony “God Bless”. And that is especially because they don’t make up for your obvious cronic avoidance and refusal to answer even a few simple questions or the honest remarks of other commenters.
There is a wise old saying, which in this case applies very much to you:
“If you can’t take the Heat, then stay out of the Kitchen.”

Well, this is a lively thread, I couldn’t help but also join in! No doubt due in large part to the participation of a fresh ID, full of the gloriously ill-thought, implicitly arrogant and cosily familiar concepts which are OH so easy to dismiss. A nice gentle workout for the mind! I guess that’s what prompted so many other responses too? :o)
Dear Aman, where are you from, out of interest? I am known round these (www) parts as arrogant & aggressive, amongst other less than complimentary things, so I apologise in advance if my questions or points are too blunt, I really mean no harm 🙂
My problem with your point of view is really based on how limited & disconnected it is from other points of view, other information, other realities etc. You need to think out the *full* implications of every avenue of thought you are promoting, and how each avenue leads to another model of thought, another paradigm, another question, another answer and so on. Keep questioning until you find a truth which is inpenetrable. (imo, this ‘truth’ is no-self, but that is another matter, it’s the process which cannot be questioned). But this is all an aside!
Aman, you appear to have made innumerable unquestioned assumptions. These are the *hidden* basis of your RS mindset. The cloud upon which you have built this castle of certainty in your BELIEFS.
Major unquestioned assumption here is that RS meditation *’works’*. You need to fully understand & unpack what the word WORKS actually means. When you say ‘work’, do you mean in the sense a) it makes you feel good, b) you see, hear or feel some weird/beautiful/ecstatic stuff, like stars, moons, radiant forms, inner regions, palaces, gardens, inner sounds etc etc, c) that the entire RS theology, from souls & karma, reincarnation, initiation & 4 lives, the 1 ‘true’ path, false & true gurus, sach khand etc are all *literally* true and objective truths, and that meditation ‘working’ somehow proves or verifies this?
I would suggest your mental definition of the word ‘works’ is a little vague and unquestioned by even yourself? You’ve mixed up the word ‘works’ in the sense you sit and YOU saw things, with the entire RS theology being true, therefore being applicable in a universal sense. You don’t even consider the possibility that inner experience is much, much more easily available to some people than others, and that being initiated by this or that guru, this or that type of meditation is totally irrelevant, as it may depend on the individual’s neuro-biological makeup. An initiated satsangi may meditate for 60 years with no experience, and an uninitiated & unaware person may grow weary of the spontaneous ‘inner experiences’ which handicap them their entire life. So what is ‘working’ exactly?
You also don’t consider the possibility that these inner experiences don’t actually prove anything about the RS paradigm and cosmology, as these inner experiences may just be a misunderstood and misinterpreted function of our neuro-biological makeup. In fact, it is infinitely more likely this is the literal case, than the RS theology being literally true. No doubt. That you, uninitiated, have had ‘inner experiences’, whilst there are several here who haven’t despite decades with the practice, is really saying something quite ponderous isn’t it? Does the guru/organisation really OWN and DISH OUT these experiences, or are we falsely projecting our own innate abilities? If you think about it, you’re more or less advising people to NEVER get initiated :oD I tease, of course. The implications, if fully thought out, are actually too profound to communicate. The RS model is far too limited & limiting.
Also, when you say it ‘works’, do you mean it literally ‘works’ for EVERYONE who tries it, or for 75%, or for 10%, or for 0.0001%? How do you know? Why DOESN’T it work for some people? Do you really know?
This is the point. *If* the meditation experiences somehow proved the RS theology was ‘true’, then you’d have an excellent point. But it doesn’t, and you don’t.
Let’s take the venerable Mr Hines as an example, if I may. He has meditated for 30-40 years diligently, with no overt ‘results’ according to the RS cosmology/model at least. If YOUR meditation experience ‘working’ somehow proved the validity & truth of the RS theology, you can say Brian is merely going through bad karma, unknown to him at a remarkably graceful and mercifuly rapid rate, thanks to the guru of course!
However, if meditation experience, even if experienced as advertised, DOESN’T in any way prove or verify the theology of RS, and that the ability to have certain kinds of ‘inner experience’ is based on natural ability and tendencies, and that other forms of meditation available could be potentially more ‘fruitful’ & ENJOYABLE, and not somehow merely of ‘kal’ and his nefarious henchemen, then perhaps Brian could have made that choice freely without the fear of travelling around the wheel of 8,400,00 lives? Or perhaps even made the choice to never meditate again? For if there is no literal Sach Khand, other than as a temporal state of altered consciousness which is biologically based & badly interpreted, why bother spending decades doing something you’re not a *natural* at?
Ahhh, too long this post! And, of course, you won’t heed a word. As is only right of course! 🙂
Ta ta.

PS, on your point about not viewing the RS ‘path’ as a scientific venture, but rather a bhakti one.
I agree to quite some extent, from some viewpoints.
However, you may wish to communicate this u-u-turn to Gurinder, who very regularly and very forcefully instructs us that we should, in fact, not even bother too much with the bhakti side and FOCUS on the meditation.
Meditation, meditation, meditation. All things, and he means ALL things, will come from meditation and meditation alone.
Like a formula. Like a science.
Right?
Well, it’s wrong.
:o)

Ok Mr. Tao since you seem to know it all go ahead I’m listening with an open mind please tell me what is the right path, what path you follow, what have you achieved on your path??

Aman,
tAo never said that he knows everything, but after reading all the comments, it seems like you have been telling that you know everything:)
I guess, all tAo is trying to tell you is that stop making assumptions about anybody. I would say please try to read the few posts and comments in this blog and see what the discussion is about.
Read the old posts and you will find a pattern there. Every once in a while, in the middle of a discussion about RSSB, an over enthusiastic arrogant new satsangi comes and assumes that everybody else is doomed and start passing his/her conditioned thoughts to others. Other pattern is that the defending satsangi will never answer any questions even directly asked to him but just like to preach. I am not saying that you should not write about whatever you think or have experienced in an open discussion forum but just don’t assume about others. Ask questions if you want to know or read.
So do you believe in RSSB philosophy that once you are chosen, you are taken care of anyway and only initiated ones are the chosen ones? What does initiation mean to you? Does initiation mean Guru marking the chosen souls? Then you are contradicting your own path cause as per the RSSB dogmas, you are not being ‘chosen’ yet and an ‘unchosen’ one is trying to teach ‘chosen’ disciples of his own guru:) (btw this is supposed to be a joke:) Now don’t get offended by it.)

Dear Sapient
Please I don’t get offended by anyone cause I really don’t care about words that much. It’s obvious my experience cannot help others & just becasue others don’t see truth in these teachings it’s their problem not mine. I believe that every soul has it’s own way to find it’s path so I don’t need others to tell me that I am deluded & neither do I expect to change anyone’s views about RSSB or sant mat.
I don’t believe in this theory that just because you are initiated you are taken care of I think initiation into any path is only a way to tell yourself that now it’s time to work hard towards your evolution, it’s like a personal promise to oneself not to the master or any organisation.
Initiation to me is making a commitment to myself under the guidance of the one who has evolved & achieved enlightenment & then working hard to keep that promise by doing meditation in case of sant mat.
This guru marking the choosen soul thing I don’t believe, I think that universal consciousness or God guides us to a particular path, the marking if you call it that has already been done according to our actions or karmas so no need to mark a soul again & then keeping the master as our ideal we work hard towards achieving the highest state of consciousness.
There is no question of being chosen or not chosen if your karmas are pointing your consciousness towards spiritual growth you are choosen. There’s no marking machine in heaven which says oh that soul is choosen or not it’s only a way of explaining.
By the way I never said I know everything I only shared my views.

Obviously Aman has not read the entire RSSB literature. He has an idea of what RSSB is.

Dear Manjit (whoever you are),
I find what you have observed/suggested in your above notes to be most worth while – even, in principle, for those who do not follow this RSSB guru-cult that so many here have been associated with.
Robert Paul Howard

Dear Brian,
Your “duty” is, of course, to yourself (even if you might not truly have a “self” [!]). And I find nothing wrong with enjoyment – particularly if it is just “enjoyed” and not “needed.” Such a basic attraction seems to fall in quite well with a Spinozan analysis of each person’s pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain. I am glad, however, that you don’t appear to be a sadist in your pursuit(s) of pleasure, like some others seem to prefer.
On the other hand, however, this does seem to put meditation (and its pursuit/practice) on about the same level as a five-dollar latte, masturbation, pork-barbeque, organic food, or owning/driving a particular type of car. It might become just another “pleasure” (to – maybe/possibly – become attached to).
Robert Paul Howard

Aman wrote: “Ok Mr. Tao since you seem to know it all go ahead I’m listening with an open mind please tell me what is the right path, what path you follow, what have you achieved on your path??”
— Aman, it appears that you have difficulty in understanding my commments, and a result, you have continued to misinterpret. You also still have not answered even one of my simple questions that I had asked you, but now you ask me questions. That is pretty lame. This is the tendency of ignoring and evading that you continue to manifest, and that I have mentioned previously. If you wish for others to take you seriously, then you need to respond likewise.
Fyi, I never claimed to “know it all”. I simply said that you (an individual who has admitted to not yet being initiated, and who has clearly shown a general lack of any real understanding of the fundamental tenets of the Santmat and Radha Soami teachings, and who has espoused ideas and opinions and sopeculations that generally do not conform to Radha Soami doctrine) has come to this forum with an assumption that other long-time initiates have somehow failed and have not progressed spiritually, and with an attitude that you are proficient in meditation and thus are here to teach these long-time initiates how to meditate and that you are somehow more spiritually advanced than they are. Those were more or less your claims and your admonitions to others in this forum. You say that you were simply trying to share, but that, like both myself and others have told you, is not how you have presented yourself thus far. You have given your ideas and opinions as if you know better and are more experienced than others. And until you begin to answer the simple questions that were asked of you, no one here is going to regard you as having any real credibility, but rather only as a poseur.
You asked: “please tell me what is the right path, what path you follow, what have you achieved on your path??”
— There is no one or only “right path”. Each must find his own unique path.
— I no longer follow any path. I simply engage and abide in ‘instant presence’, the self-perfected state of primordial awareness.
— There is nothing “to achieve”. A path presupposes an destination. But life is a journey, not a goal or destination. The journey is the thing. There is nothing to achieve and nowhere to arrive at. This… Is It.
—————————
Aman also wrote to Sapient:
“It’s obvious my experience cannot help others”
— And how could it, and why should it?
“just becasue others don’t see truth in these teachings it’s their problem not mine.”
— How do you know what others see or don’t see? How do you know what is the truth for others? How do you know that others “don’t see truth”? How do you know what others have or have notn gained from “these teachings”? Your so-called “truth” is only an idea that you have, or an idea that you have acquired from somehere else. Ideas and experiences are not “truth”. Truth is not something which you can possess or define.
“I believe that every soul has it’s own way to find it’s path so I don’t need others to tell me that I am deluded…”
— No one said that you are deluded. Just don’t try to tell others that they have no “progress” or that they have failed. Because you don’t know anything about others.
“…neither do I expect to change anyone’s views about RSSB or sant mat.”
— You tried to tell others (especially other initiates) what Sant mat meditation is all about. But some of your ideas and opinions do not actually adhere to Sant mat doctrine.
“I don’t believe in this theory that just because you are initiated you are taken care of”
— But that is not what Sant mat doctrine says.
“I think initiation into any path is only a way to tell yourself that now it’s time to work hard towards your evolution, it’s like a personal promise to oneself not to the master or any organisation.”
— That’s fine if you wish to view it that way. I have no disagreeement with that part of your statement. However, your general exclusion of the “master” in this equation does not really adhere to the RS teachings.
“Initiation to me is making a commitment to myself under the guidance of the one who has evolved & achieved enlightenment…”
— You commitment is also fine, but how do you know for certain that “the one who has evolved” (ie: the supposed sant mat “sant” or “master”) is actually genuinely “evolved”? And how do you know for certain that this so-called master or sant has “achieved enlightenment”? How would you know that? You simp’y do not know that for certain. You only beleive that. What makes you assume that the RS “master” is actually really “enlightened”? Where is the proof of that?
“…then working hard to keep that promise by doing meditation in case of sant mat.”
— If you truly wish to engae in the path of sant mat meditation, then you should and must needs gain formal initiation. Until you do so, you are notactually following and adhering fully to the sant mat teachings. At this point, you are merely engaging in your own mental speculation.
“This guru marking the choosen soul thing I don’t believe,”
— Then again, you are clearly NOT in agreement with sant mat and RS teachings. RS teachings specifically indicates that the satsangi initiates are “marked”.
“I think that universal consciousness or God guides us to a particular path, the marking if you call it that has already been done according to our actions or karmas so no need to mark a soul again” … “There is no question of being chosen or not chosen”
— unfortunately for you, that is NOT what Santmat/RS teaches.
If you really wish to follow and practice Sant Mat and the Radha Soami teachings, then you are advised to apply for initiation. Otherwise you are making up your own path. You can do that if you wish, but don’t claim to be following the RS path and guru. But before seeking initiation you really need to become much better acqainted with the RS doctrine.
I would also strongly advise you to go study other paths and traditions such as the sanatana dharma, advaita vedanta, and buddhism before becoming fixated soley upon RS.

Correction:
Aman wrote: “I don’t believe in this theory that just because you are initiated you are taken care of”
— You may not “believe” it, but that IS what Sant mat doctrine says. Sant mat and RS says that the master IS responsible for your spiritual care, and IS bound to take you to “sach khand”.

In addition to vedanta and buddhism, I would also advise Aman to study the Zen (Ch’an) Teachings of Huang Po, the Taoism of Lao Tzu, and the Dzgochen of Garab Dorje… and especially to first read “The Wisdom of Insecurity” by Alan Watts.

Aman wrote:
“I don’t believe in this theory that just because you are initiated you are taken care of”
–Then you don’t believe in the Sant Mat teachings. Initiation by a perfect Sat Guru is paramount in Sant Mat. It is the foundational doctrine. If you admit that this is a theory, is the rest not a theory?
“..the one who has evolved & achieved enlightenment..”
–How do you determine if the master has evolved and acheived enlightenment? I think this is the most important thing for any prospective devotee to consider… What if he HASN’T?
Maybe you can reach an even higher state of consciousness one day and help the master get there ! ;o)

Mr.tao I never said I know everything about everything or that I’m here to preach or teach old satsangis how to meditate you blaim me of misunderstanding your comments well you do the same in my case my intentions were not to teach but to share but don’t know why you think I’m here to teach.
I’m not assuming anything but the way this whole blog is about how rssb or sant mat is a false path is pretty clear topics & material is a clear indication what this blog is all about.
you say “I no longer follow any path. I simply engage and abide in ‘instant presence’, the self-perfected state of primordial awareness.”
these are nothing but fancy words for me, which path you followed earlier & what soul realization have you attained can you seperate your soul from your body? have you done astral travelling etc? if not then your instant presence is nothing but a foolish state of awareness where you are just fooling your self because you couldn’t attain anything & you have no realization of the soul yet let alone god realization.
you wrote
“It’s obvious my experience cannot help others”
— And how could it, and why should it?
thats what im saying how could it & why should it help others
from what I’ve read so far these stories are about how they left rssb or sant mat because nothing happened or lame excuses regarding rssb administration methods which is a failure story for me. If they had attained something they would be here complaining about the path.
Who made you the authority over Sant mat doctrine just because you understand it in a different way doesn’t mean I should also follow your understanding about it. Everyone follows the path in ones own way & no one is suppose to judge that the other’s way is wrong.
For me my intuition is the factor which decides which master is enlightened or not & plus if his radiant form seems real enough to me in my inner experience then thats enough prove about his attainment.
Just because you or someone else got initiation doesn’t mean he is following the path any better than me. Love for God does not require a stamp from anyone & there are many un initiated people who follow sant mat path much better than the initiated ones so don’t give me this reason that just becuase I’m not initiated I cannot follow the path.
whether i’m merely engaging in my mental speculation you are no one to decide how do you know this? just because you see something from a different perspective doesn’t mean my view is my mental speculation & you have the right speculation.
when sant mat says that initiated souls are marked I agree that these souls are marked but it you say that the guru marks them by his own will than that is wrong, the souls which are marked are brought to the path. You are no one to decide what sant mat teaches infact sant mat clearly states that marking is done by the lord maybe you need to check your sant mat understanding.
I didn’t mean that initiation means taken care in case of reaching sach khand, I meant being initiated doesn’t mean you don’t have to do anything the master is responsible for your evolution but you have to walk on the path sach khand will not come to you.
If you really have some attainment of higher consciousness, out of body experience, soul travel etc. then discuss this stuff just by saying that There is nothing to achieve and nowhere to arrive at. This… Is It. Doesn’t mean anything it only shows that you don’t couldn’t achieve anything & now just because you couldn’t you are satisfied with NOW!! Please don’t waste your time & mine. You sound like an enlightened person but your words don’t have the power to back it up I think it’s better you stay in this ‘instant presence’ zone.

Aman says you have to walk the path. Sach Khand won’t come to you. Is the path tarred or in tarmac?

I think for now it’s tarmac but don’t worry soon the sach khand administration staff is trying to upgrade it because as you can see many people cry like babies when they walk on the path so administration staff is aware of the problem soon they’lll provide help 🙂

I don’t know whether anybody is crying like a baby. But Aman is surely in fairy tale fantasies. Santa Claus is for kids. Grow up, Aman.

No Deepak I love santa claus so I’ll remain in this fantasy. You seem grown up but seriously what’s the fun in that? Isn’t spirituality about going back to innocence. I’ll remain a kid you enjoy your adulthood seem to boring to me.

Hey Aman! Dude, check this out:
I have found that following a spiritual path has no particular relevance to ‘understanding’ which can occur at any time under any circumstance. It’s a thin veil, a trick of perception that is a result of our habits and conditioning that keeps us from seeing how things are.
A spiritual path is based on the presumption of an individual that needs to go through a variety of disciplines and correct behaviors in order to purify and get rid of the ‘I’ or ego, and then achieve reunion with God.
The fundamental point that is missed is that the seeker, at every stage of this quest, is already what he/she is seeking. There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are. It is a matter of looking in the right direction, which is no direction at all, to see this: that you are just a phantom, a dreamed character in a play you are playing a role in. There is no individual. No separate soul. No ego to overcome.
There are no particular qualifications for perceiving this because Absolute is perfectly present in all circumstances and has no need for special diets, disciplines or gurus.
Absolute is always present NOW whether one is loading the dishwasher or experiencing a grand vison of the universe in some exotic inner region.
When this is seen, the game of the spiritual quest appears silly, like a dog chasing it’s tail. There is nothing wrong with playing that game. It is your role in the play. Carry on, have fun, but none of it leads to what you are which you already are whether you know it or not. Your glasses are on your nose, silly!
What you already are is the unborn, and thus undying Presence that is prior to all phenomena and thought..Alakh, Agam, Anami. It can’t be conceived or circumscribed in any way because in doing so it would be making an object out of itself. This is how the One becomes two, duality begins, the universe manifests and the illusion of individuality takes place.
Clue: Can an eye see itself?
The One is playing a game of hide and seek with itself. All paths lead to nowhere because there is nowhere to go. Just be as you are, really are, right now, which is just fine as it is.
????
Any thoughts?

Tulsi,
What you write is beautiful, compelling, and believeable.
The only issue I have with it is the last part, when you write:
“Just be as you are, really are, right now, which is just fine as it is.”
When you write, “be, as you really are” there seems to be an implication that somehow I could be as I am really not, or as I a little am, or a lot am. Could you unpack that? I guess what I am saying is that while your description of the play is eloquent, the fact is that just by knowing, or believing we are in the play doesn’t change the fact that we are deeply identified with the play. Perhaps some “path” or “process” is necessary to disidentify with it, even if, as you say, there is really no where to go.
Imagine going to disneyworld, and finding that the character playing mickey mouse has been trapped inside of his outfit for twenty years and now thinks he is mickey. Let us now say that you convince him that he is not in fact mickey mouse, but joe smith. Even if joe accepts your argument, as soon as he starts to take action in the world again, if he has not discarded his suit, he does so once again as mickey. The overwhelming response from the world is that he is in fact mickey, confirming his old belief that you just worked so hard to destroy.
How do you integrate your view of the world into more sustained, lived experience?

Dear Tulsi
Komposer I love your point!! It’s exactly what I was trying to tell tulsi. Somehow someone thought I didn’t understand tulsi but anyways this is what I’m saying tulsi that yes there’s no where to go or reach in the end the final realization is of the self which is present now agreed but just the knowledge of the self is not enough there has to be a process which will unfold the real self & that realization will not be a mere thought or belief system which you’ve come to understand but instead it will be a result & conclusion to your experiment with your self & your soul. Just like Komposer said the guy in the mickey mouse has to come out & know that he is joe smith but still further if I go to him & say the joe smith is the name of this body but you are a soul. How will he comprehend this information unless he experiences it?? I told the same thing to tao also that just by saying i’m in the instant presense zone doesn’t mean anything you need to experience it by changing the state in which you are in right now. Vedas & saints have given many warnings to such people who follow the way of gyan or knowledge just because their assumptions are based on intellect not first hand experience. The whole point of the journey from finite consciousness to infinite consciousness is to bring into experience this belief that I AM WHAT I AM!! but it has to be experienced to fully comprehend that, mere beliefs & words cannot do that at all. That’s why the journey is so important when we change our consciousness level to higher ones we realize different aspects of our being this gives rise to the ultimate reality but if we don’t go through change like the mickey mouse guy won’t come out of the suit he will never fully understand the true nature of what he is.

Aman,
It has now come to the point and is clear to me that you obviously don’t comprehend the issues. And that is irrespective of my comments. Why do I say that YOU think that you are here to teach others about sant mat? Simply because your comments are indicative of that.
You say “this whole blog is about how rssb or sant mat is a false path is pretty clear”… Have you read the entire Churchless archives? Obviously you have not. As a mnatter of fact, you have basically confined yourself to one thread and subject matter, and it is YOU who are so totally fixated upon rssb and sant mat. Actually, Brian has written numerous articles about many many different subjects other than rssb. But since you are just another typical RS internet troll, other areas of spirituality are beyond your realm.
I had previously said: “I no longer follow any path. I simply engage and abide in ‘instant presence’, the self-perfected state of primordial awareness.”
Aman then responded: “these are nothing but fancy words for me, which path you followed earlier & what soul realization have you attained can you seperate your soul from your body?”
— They are only “fancy words” to you. They are actully very simple and direct words, and in fact far simpler words and meaning than the ponderous heap of dualistic sant mat garbage and RS dogma and astral nonsense that you parrot here.
Aman said: “have you done astral travelling etc? if not then your instant presence is nothing but a foolish state of awareness where you are just fooling your self because you couldn’t attain anything & you have no realization of the soul yet let alone god realization.”
— You know absolutely nothing about me, about my state, realization, or about ‘instant presence’. Your comment only reveals what a complete and utterly ignorant fool you really are. And your so-called “astral travelling” is merely a manifestation of that ignorance and foolishness. Moreover, it’s now perfectly obvious to me that you are an RSSB internet troll who has come here to harass ex-satsangis and anyone who takes a critical view towards sant mat and the RS guru-cult’s dualistic religious theology and dogma.
Then AMAN said: “It’s obvious my experience cannot help others”
Then I said: And how could it, and why should it?
And then AMAN replied: “thats what im saying how could it & why should it help others”
— Therefore, you are only agreeing with me. So why are you trying to “help others” with regard to sant mat meditation? And don’t try to tell us again that you aren’t trying to “help”… because the record shows that you were doing just that.
Aman said: “what I’ve read so far these stories are about how they left rssb or sant mat because nothing happened … If they had attained something they would be here complaining about the path.”
— You are the only one who is complaining. You are complaining about ex-satsangis. People have left RS for various differnet reasons. But what do you think should happen? And what is there to attain? These are nothing more than ideas and preumptions that you cling to. Whose to say “nothing happened”? Your comment does not make any sense.
Aman said: “Who made you the authority over Sant mat doctrine just because you understand it in a different way doesn’t mean I should also follow your understanding about it.”
— I am not the authority, the books and the previous masters and their satsang lectures, letters, and literature are the source of the doctrine. So if you have a problem with it, then go to RSSB, not me. It’s not about what I say, its all about what RSS says.
Aman said: “Everyone follows the path in ones own way & no one is suppose to judge that the other’s way is wrong.”
— I am not judging your way, I already said that you are free to do as you please. I am only judging the sant mat doctrine and the RS gurus. But the real question is why are YOU judging my spirituality as you have done here:
Aman said: “have you done astral travelling etc? if not then your instant presence is nothing but a foolish state of awareness where you are just fooling your self because you couldn’t attain anything & you have no realization of the soul yet let alone god realization.”
— Which, by the way, you obviously know absolutely nothing about.
Aman said: “For me my intuition is the factor which decides which master is enlightened or not & plus if his radiant form seems real enough to me in my inner experience then thats enough prove about his attainment.”
— That may be sufficient for you, but unfortunately that kind of “intuition” does not prove or validate anything. You are just a believer, and thats your choice. But you have no actual proof. So don’t say that you do.
Aman said: “Just because you or someone else got initiation doesn’t mean he is following the path any better than me.”
— Sorry to inform you, but you are not initiated, therfore you are actually not yet following the path. Until you gain initiation, you are merely a seeker and a wannabe satsangi. Furthermore, I don’t claim to be “following the path” or “better”. I ceased practicing that path many years ago, but I still have a great deal of direct experience as well as knowledge about the RS path.
Aman said: “are many un initiated people who follow sant mat path much better than the initiated ones”
— Again, that is fundamentally incorrect. You may think that you are following some of the parameters of the path, but until you become initiated, you have no claim to anything. You are simply a wannabe and a poseur who claims to be following “sant mat path much better than the initiated ones”. You yourself said that.
Aman said: “don’t give me this reason that just becuase I’m not initiated I cannot follow the path.”
— No one said that you “cannot” follow the path. But until you gain initiation you are only in preparation. And that is not what I say, but rather that is what RSS says and all the RS masters say.
Aman said: “whether i’m merely engaging in my mental speculation you are no one to decide how do you know this?”
— Because you have shown that in many of your speculative comments.
Aman said: “just because you see something from a different perspective doesn’t mean my view is my mental speculation & you have the right speculation.”
— I am not speculating about anything. I am only reporting and pointing to what the RSS itself and its masters have said. It is not my opinion, but the opinion of RSS
Aman said: “are no one to decide what sant mat teaches infact sant mat clearly states that marking is done by the lord”
— I never said that I decide, and the issue is not ‘who’ marks, but rather about the ridiculous notion of “marking” itself.
Aman said: “I didn’t mean that initiation means taken care in case of reaching sach khand, I meant being initiated doesn’t mean you don’t have to do anything the master is responsible for your evolution but you have to walk on the path sach khand will not come to you.”
— That is NOT what the Radha Soami doctrine says. The RS doctine says that the initiate is guarenteed by the master to reach sach khand within four lifetimes.
Aman said: “If you really have some attainment of higher consciousness, out of body experience, soul travel etc. then discuss this stuff…”
— I am not interested in discussing such dualistic nonsense.
Aman said: “…just by saying that There is nothing to achieve and nowhere to arrive at. This… Is It. Doesn’t mean anything…”
— You only feel that it doesn’t mean anything to YOU. But what do you know about that anyway?
Aman said: “…it only shows that you don’t couldn’t achieve anything & now just because you couldn’t you are satisfied with NOW!!”
— You simply do not what I have “achieved”. You could not possibly know. So your foolish assertion is nothing more than another manifestation of your ignorance and stupidity.
Aman said: “Please don’t waste your time & mine.”
— YOU are wasting YOUR time by coming to this open-minded blog forum and behaving like a contentious and ignorant troll.
Aman said: “You sound like an enlightened person but your words don’t have the power to back it up”
— Again, you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about me or about my words or about my spiritual understanding and realization.
Aman said: “I think it’s better you stay in this ‘instant presence’ zone.”
— Unfortunately for you you have no idea what you are talking about. And ‘Instant Presence’ is not a “zone”.
Like I said, my decided conclusion about you Aman, is that you are just another RSS internet troll who has foolishly come here attempting to harass, pester, beleaguer, deride, and mock the ‘ex-satsangis’ (for lack of a better term). But you could not hold your own in a debate if your life depended upon it. You are nothing more than a lame RS sycophant who is full of rubbish and nonsese, and almost everyone here knows it. In fact, you are really just another reflection of pathetic RS guru-cultism. At this point, you have proven that you do not deserve any further attention or energy or chances.
Good-bye RS troll.

Aman said: “I told the same thing to tao also that just by saying i’m in the instant presense zone doesn’t mean anything you need to experience it by changing the state in which you are in right now. Vedas & saints have given many warnings to such people who follow the way of gyan or knowledge just because their assumptions are based on intellect not first hand experience.”
— You simply do not know what I “experience”. And you clearly do not know what “instant presence” means or IS. And you clearly do not know what you are talking about with respoct to “zone”. And your saying: “changing the state in which you are in right now” only confirms your utter ignorance of the ‘self-perfected’ state and what it means. And moreover, it has nothing at all to do with any such “gyan” or “intellect”.
Therfore Aman, by dint of your own ignorant comments, you have proven yourself to be nothing more than a presumptious spiritual neophyte who beahves like a typical internet troll. You are not here to intelligently discuss the pros and CONS of sant mat, or any other path or teaching (of which you know nothing about anyway). You have now sufficiently proven what a fool and a poseur you really are.
And ironically, it’s actually the impudent little punks like you who are the ones who give the Radha Soami Satsang a bad name, and NOT the ex-satsangis and critics.

Komposer said: “When you write, “be, as you really are” there seems to be an implication that somehow I could be as I am really not, or as I a little am, or a lot am.”
…Ha! I like clever thinking. Good for you, but still, I think you understood my meaning. It is difficult, when talking about this sort of thing, to be precise enough with words. They always lead to more questions.
You said–“Perhaps some “path” or “process” is necessary to disidentify with it, even if, as you say, there is really no where to go.”
…I think the crux of the matter is that it is seen that there is no one to disidentify with it. The identified individual is a fiction…Poof. Up in smoke.
You said-“Let us now say that you convince him that he is not in fact mickey mouse, but joe smith.”
…He is neither mickey nor joe, he is no one at all. Mickey just drops away and what is left is This with no boundary or attribute, the happening of Life of which the “I” sense is just another fleeting phenomena.
You can’t talk or reason your way to seeing what I am talking about. It is just happening. Really, anything I say is misleading. This. Just This. This “instant presence” Mr. Tao talks about.
You asked- “How do you integrate your view of the world into more sustained, lived experience?”
…”You” can’t do a thing. People want something they can do, but the idea that there is someone who could do it is the very thing keeping them from it.
Aman said- “but just the knowledge of the self is not enough there has to be a process which will unfold the real self”
…It is “seen” that there is no self to have knowledge of, and there is no real self to unfold. Where would it stand to see itself? That is the game of duality.
Aman says-“Just like Komposer said the guy in the mickey mouse has to come out & know that he is joe smith but still further if I go to him & say the joe smith is the name of this body but you are a soul.”
…Now we have three fictitious entities: Mickey, Joe and Soul!!
Aman said- “How will he comprehend this information unless he experiences it??”
…There is no “he” to comprehend IT and IT is no thing that can be comprehended as an object. No he. No it. No this nor that. Sages have been saying it for ages.
Aman said- “Vedas & saints have given many warnings to such people who follow the way of gyan or knowledge just because their assumptions are based on intellect not first hand experience.”
…Unless their “assumptions” are based on first hand experience and not intellect! But words are words no matter who says them. Each must see it for themselves. (“Each” and “it” being used for convenience and necessity of language).
Aman said- “The whole point of the journey from finite consciousness to infinite consciousness is to bring into experience this belief that I AM WHAT I AM!!
…Finite and infinite are the same and thus extinguish the other. It can’t journey to itself. The thought “I am what I am” is the primordial illusion. Imagine no I at all.
Aman said- “but it has to be experienced to fully comprehend that,”
…Who would comprehend/experience it? Can the eye see itself? See? ;o)
“That’s why the journey”
…who would make it?
“is so important when we change our consciousness level to higher ones we realize different aspects of our being”
…there is no we to have a being. Just BEING !
“this gives rise to the ultimate reality”
…there is no one to know it, therefore it cannot be known!!
“but if we don’t go through change like the mickey mouse guy won’t come out of the suit he will never fully understand the true nature of what he is.”
…which is no thing at all. You see if he thinks he knows the true nature of what he is, it may as well be Mickey Mouse and we’re back to square one.

Tulsi, are you a ex-satsangi. Did you reach this state through RSSB or despite RSSB.

Dear Tulsi
I get your point but I don’t agree with your idea of there’s nothing. Even if you believe that just realize the BEING! there is still something it cannot be nothing. The BEING is there. The state you speak about is definitely fine but if you think in that state there’s nothing no subject no object I don’t agree because no matter what you cannot remove the BEING, there is still something you may call it BEING I call it soul but still there is existence it cannot be nothing!! & to reach that state there has to be the process by which you disengage the other false ideas of the “I” or ego & still there’s something which is left it can be infinite consciousness but still there is existence or the “I” merging in the cosmic consciousness but it cannot be nothing!! If no journey or spiritual progress is required then how can you reach that state of just BEING!! don’t tell me that only knowledge of this is enough there has to be an experience of the self where it is seperated from all duality to become unalloyed BEING!! but how to reach that state??

What I’m trying to say is that yes in the end only the BEING!! remains, in the end only the eye remains & it cannot see itself true but for that to happen the journey is still essential. Only knowledge of your self cannot be enough. That state has to be experienced. By going from duality to non-duality.

What Aman does not understand is that occultism is different from mysticism? Even I had this problem in my initial days of Radha Soami brainstorming. OF course, I realised the hoax of Radha Soami. That is another story.

Dear Deepak
Then why don’t you tell me what is this mysticism you talk about? What is this Radhasoami hoax?

Occultism is something that deals with the exotic, is forced. It is like trying to get out of the body, telepathy, siddhis, riddhis. It uses a lot of willpower. Astral travel, clairvoyance, clairaudience, mediumship, dualistic games, ESP et al belong to this category. Occultism is more of extroversion.
Mysticism is more along the lines of surrender, a let go, a flow. It is more of an introversion. Mysticism is more about realization and let-go. It is about the dawning of wisdom.
I found that RSSb is more concerned about the occultist part of life. Its technique of hearing the dhun, repitition and remembrance of the master are more on the lines of semi-occult method. The mystic method is more of a natural let-go without any judgement. That’s what I do now.

Dear Deepak
Could you please tell what do you mean by —The mystic method is more of a natural let-go without any judgement. That’s what I do now.– by saying this that you do this I want to know what exactly you do?? I mean is there some meditation involved like sitting & forgetting our surrounding, body & eventually coming to the point where there’s nothing else left no thought no image no vision no breath it’s only you as an observer observing nothing at all or is it something else.

You know. Mystic method is about surrender. Occult is about gaining.
In the mystic method, you just observe. As and when you go on observing, your past impressions keep coming. Different thoughts, emotions etc keep on coming. However, we keep on going in a state of divine ignorance. Sometimes we have faith. Sometimes we have fear. It is isness and nothing else. Staring into reality.
But I must mention that I am not an authority on this subject because I am myself a struggling soul.
My faith is agnosticism. I really don’t know. I keep meditating. SOmetimes, the five names of Radha Soami keep coming out of habit. I just watch. Sometimes some other thoughts keep coming. THere are spaces too. It is about acceptance.
I feel that this concept of sadhana is that of an ego asserting itself. Have faith and do what you think is right.
As for RSSB bluff, I must say that sadhana never leads to enlightenment. Assuming that you do RSSB meditation and you reach Sach Khand. Even then who reaches Sach Khand. Who is the one who is leaving the body.
I consider Sri Ramana Maharshi an authority on the issues of meditation. Because he was authentic. No power mongering. No ego. He was just there.

Dear Deepak
I agree that even if something reaches sach khand then still the question remains what is that self but I guess that’s what the regions of anami is all about where there is no object no subject nothing at all it’s only yourself as a pure being. Have you read baba faqir chand?? a radical rs master but I like what he said about his final realization that I’m just a bubble is this ocean of consciousness & the bubble will merge back in the ocean. The way of ramana maharshi is not so easy. The way he got his enlightenment I don’t think we are capable of that simply because his way was of knowledge & he was evolved enough to stay in that knowledge of self. In the vedas this path is considered the most dangerous because for a common man to be in that knowledge 24 hours a day is practically impossible. I think for common people like me we need an experience which can show us or make us realize that we are not this body only such an experience can give me complete satisfaction that I’m a soul & not this body. Maybe you find the path of knowledge the right one but for me I need first hand experience to know my true self, knowledge alone doesn’t work for me.

Dear Compadres Comrades and Dudes,
There is just Being and no one to know it. If you see it and say, “Oh that’s it and now I know it”, you have a subject-object perception…the perceiver and the perceived. This is duality. This is illusion.
Let’s say there have been times when there was “just Being”. When one is “just Being” questions drop away and all is obvious. Instantly many opposing concepts unify, conflicting perceptions are seen in the cohesiveness of the “big picture”. It is seen that every tiny particle, every galaxy and universe is just as it should be. But as soon as the thought comes, “I know this”, then it is split and the fullness is lost. There is a memory of the fullness and it can be discussed abstractly as we are doing here, but it is not the fullness (which is simultaneously emptiness) itself. So when I say there is no thing, this is just a description of what can’t be described. Words fall completely short and can be picked apart endlessly. It is just beating about the bush, but not the bush itself. All these words and ideas..fullness, big picture, Being, realization, highest consciousness, etc. are pointing to something that can’t be known, because to know it, someone would have to be there to know it. In the absence of self, all opposing concepts of higher-lower, pain-pleasure, evil-good, birth-death merge, and as such, neither polarity exists and yet they do. This is the paradox of being..you are, but you aren’t. When there is neither this nor that, there is no “thing” at all. Absolute can’t be known as a thing or object. Infinity can’t be contained in a concept, attained by a dreamed entity, reached by any particular process. It can’t be reached because it is the reaching. It can’t be known because it is the knowing.
All spiritual paths are beating around the bush, a bush that doesn’t exist as such. How can you follow a path to This which is always present. Here is always present. When you get there, then there is here. You will forever be here.. Before you were born, you were here. After you die, you will be here. Here, this, is always immediately available no matter how far you travel, how far inside you go, how many fabulous astral/causal regions you pass. It has no duration, how could you hold it? It has no shape, how could you see it? It has no description, how could you know it? We are already home because the end of the road was the start and there was never anywhere to go.

tulsi,
When I write above,
“be, as you really are” there seems to be an implication that somehow I could be as I am really not, or as I a little am, or a lot am,”
I am only half trying to be clever. I am also being sincere. In my sincerity, I ask, how can I be as I am? I can hear your answer, that there is no how…
which is why you critique the concept of a path and technique which suggests that doing a certain thing will lead to an outcome. And I understand and agree with your point that such a concept of a path can hinder insight which may happen anytime–if we always think we must be at the end of a neverending road, we close ourselves off now to possible insights.
BUT, I repeat, how can I be as I am? Why even make a point about that? Aren’t I being as I am when I have my hand down my points and am watching TV? Am I being as I am when I am deeply absorbed in some activity? Am I being as I am when I am asleep? I think duality actually often comes to an end…when I am sleeping, I don’t think I am dual, when I am absrobed in a funny episode of the simpsons, I am just watching, etc. etc.
When you write, just be, it sounds so simple, yet I don’t think you really mean just being as in just living life and doing whatever. You mean a state without thought (you write above, “But as soon as the thought comes, “I know this”, then it is split and the fullness is lost”) and this state is not “just being as you are”–it is a special state that is actually very different from being as I normally am. Add the task of being nondual without being absorbed in anything as funny as the simpsons, and the difficulty gets ramped up…
Also, how am I supposed to be as I am with all this cultural conditioning controlling my thoughts and actions? Even your concept of “being as you are” comes from somewhere. Not to knock you too hard, but I suspect you read that somewhere or heard it from someone. I too am just a parrot, so please don’t take this as a personal attack. We can’t just be as we are, un-selfconsciously, because then we wouldn’t survive in society. This is why a path is helpful. When we think we are on a path, then we prioritize and make time to try to (re)-connect to this state you refer to. I understand that the trying itself gets in the way, but that is our fate…and if we try for long enough, maybe we will forget we are trying and suddenly….disappear.

Dear Komposer
I think you are absolutely right about the HOW?? question. This is what I want to know that how does one achieve the so called state of just being without shifting from the present condition we are already in. Any path shows us a direction & especially via meditation if we can remove all these covers on our true self then maybe that’s the right way to go instead of just reading some theory & believing it without any first hand experience. I think only experience can fully satisfy this emptiness. When we say there’s no where to go but yet we still don’t have any experience of our true self, but when we do move from different consciousness levels I think that’s what gives us the actual knowledge of the BEING state.

Being or Doing (or the complexities of path or no-path, self or no-self etc).
Interesting conceptual philosophising going on. Indeed indeed! I don’t know too much about this, but would like to give my personal experiences and perspective.
We talk & think about ‘enlightenment’ or ‘Being’ as if it is something to be acheived, something we can generate or cause. This is because the dualistic mind is unable to think or concieve within other frameworks of reference. The man in the dream world ponders endlessly how to take the dream gold with him to the wide awake world and make himself rich! This is the dualistic mind calculating by what method or path to reach the non-dual! They unwittingly conceptually imagine this ‘nirvana’ or ‘being’ they’ve heard mentioned in scritpures to be a construct within time & space, hence we are not there now and it is somewhere ‘else’. This is the dualistic illusions and patterning of the human mind.
We create a conceptual representation of ‘Being’ or ‘nirvana’ etc, and then we play various mental gymnastic games, about this path or that path or no path. About sudden or gradual ‘enlightenment’. All dualistic conceptual games and fantasies.
I would express it (my life) such:
I was aware. Into this awareness was poured endless conditioning. Conditioning from parents, siblings, friends, teachers etc. Moral, linguistic, social, sexual, cultural conditionings, layer upon layer. Conditioning from my biology too. This all culminated in the self-aware entity called ‘Manjit’. This entity believed in it’s own inherent existence AS an entity; Manjit. As I came of age, I continued to condition myself further, in line with the ‘mystical’ & ‘spritual’ paradigms of RS. I was now a soul trapped in the physical body, trapped by my karmas etc The ‘path’ out was both clear and linear. Nice and easy for the mind to comprehend!
I blossomed as a RSSB ‘seeker’. From a variety of ‘inner experiences’ (which the most powerful of, interestingly yet at the time confusingly, didn’t fit the RS model at all) such as a pantheon of beautiful radiant forms (including Sawan, Charan & Gurinder), astral travelling at will in unbelievably beautiful cities, buildings, gardens and lakes etc of the most stunningly inoxicating beauty, to other various inner states of intoxication which cannot be so easily described in dualistic language, most primarily that of love or bhakti.
I literally knew (or thought I did) that the path was true, as my ‘inner experiences’ ‘proved’ it!
However, my intense desire for the truth caused me a great, great deal of problems. I began to question, REALLY question, what my inner experiences really showed. I tried testing them. Astral projecting to a place and counting the money on top of a cupboard and then subsequently checking in ‘real’ life if I was correct (never). Reading the testimonies of countless other ‘seekers’ who saw the ‘radiant form’ of their obviously deviant ‘guru’. Reading Neural surfer and Chand. Etc etc etc. The avenues which disprove the RS theology quite convincingly are both obvious and many.
This was my ‘dark night of the soul’. Cannot remember how long it lasted. I gave up what was now to me obviously a ‘fallacy’, the RS theology, and that of many mystics I had previously loved such as Nanak. Gurinder not responding to my letter, written with tears, was one of the final straws which helped me see through this manufactured and artifical ‘spirituality’. At times overly hedonistic, at times extremely depressed. No structure for my life, no purpose, nothing. If EVERYTHING I had believed up to this point in my life was a fallacy, then what was left? Now, the EASIEST thing in the world would have been to keep deceiving myself. Pushing all the doubts to the back of my mind and continue following the RS ‘path’. But I couldn’t. My passion was always for the truth, regardless of how HARD it is to swallow. If there was no meaning to life, then that’s what I wanted to know, not some wishy washy fantasy to make me feel SPECIAL!
Anyways, losing track here!
Point is, amongst this dark night of the soul, an avowed ATHEIST I was, no meditation practice whatsoever, no faith and no hope. I didn’t believe any of it.
That’s when IT happened. A series of unexpected & ununderstood experiences which led to a permanent shift in consciousness. It can be expressed, though vastly innefficiently, in 2 ways; I had no-self, or non-dual consciousness. Then I *finally* understood intimately all the ‘spiritual’ texts that I had up until then only imagined I had fully understood.
Our thoughts are not in our control. We have no free will. It is the false combination of our awareness with the automatic thoughts which we generate which gives rise to this illusion. The seperation of our thoughts from our awareness can be experienced in meditation. I personally think the analogue for this is Bhanwar Gupha of RS theology. Here is it realised without doubt that our thoughts are automatic, not within our control as we falsely imagine them to be. The scientific proof for this is the fact we think and dream every night without being aware of it. So who is the ‘I’ that is in ‘control’??!
And so it is with paths and no-paths. We falsely think we are in ‘control’, and that we will ‘acheive’ ‘that’ by performing such and such a ‘method’. Imo, this is all dualistic illusion. Game play.
Liberation or enlightenment is entirely spontaneous. A-causal. It is not even an ‘experience’ or an altered state of consciousness, entirely impossible though this is for somebody to grasp conceptually. It is merely the absence of false point of reference labelled ‘self’. There is ONLY this or THAT. No individual self seperated from the environment. Just THIS.
It is ‘acheived’ entirely without method or order or according to any dualistic paradigm man may create. Some will ‘acheive’ it by accident, some will not despite decades of trying! Such is the wonder of existence! The chaos! Entirely spontaneous, without rhyme or reason! The grand play of the ‘divine’!
Like a flower whose DESTINY it is to blossom will first sprout forth as a leaf, then a bud, then blossom, all in order. In truth, it was always going to flower, it was it’s very nature. It was a flower all the way through The same with people who acheive ‘Being’. It never really mattered whether they followed shabd yoga or advaita, christianity or atheism, Gurinder or Rajinder, the Pope or Richard Dawkins, it just doesn’t matter. It is the NATURE of the follower to ‘seek’. It may (or may not) be in their nature to ACHEIVE ‘enlightenment’. What method or ‘path’ they use doesn’t matter, never mattered, all dualistic illusion and gameplay. It was in their very NATURE that they would seek, here or there, they would blossom after going through various stages. It is no use telling a rock to photosynthesise! Likewise it is no use telling everybody to listen to shabd! Millions may here it, yet liberation is in nobody’s control! Sound is easy, so are lights and inner regions. I dare anybody to follow what I say for 30 days and not experience these!! Easy! The loss of the illusion of ‘self’ an entirely different matter. No path. No instructions. Apart from follow your NATURE and hope for the best.
So the point is, when somebody like Tulsi (Osho Robbins??? 🙂 or Ramana say ‘there is no path, just be’, they are actually discussing their own realisation. There literally is no path, and there is nothing to acheive, only they can see it!! They say these things in hope of catching those who are just about ready to BLOOM. To give them that little ‘push’ over into….
Of course these instructions are not for everyone! Think about it, even if you only have an intellectual grasp of these ‘advaitic’ sentiments, could you even conceive of trying to explain this to a narrow minded Christian?
I’m sorry, there is no difference in trying to explain this simple yet highest spiritual truth to even the majority of ‘satsangis’, even if they think they understand deep spiritual concepts! They aren’t neccessarily ready for this one! In the same way you wouldn’t expect a child to do quantum physics, but start with ABC, so it is with ‘mysticism’. I would swear when Gurinder used this analogy at Haynes Park a few years ago, he was referring to precisely this. To Faqir Chand and how most people are unready to grasp those kind of ideas when they are so mentally enmeshed in the traditional dualistic RS paradigm…….
PS, the history & evolution of mystical practice and thought very strongly indicates this too. The entire RS practice has emerged and evolved from the tantric practices of Gorakhnath and Kashmiri Shaivism, which in turn was a devolution of ‘advatic’ thought. The first few paragraphs of the tantric text Vijnanbhairava tantra are an excellent example. Prior to detaiiling 118 meditation practices, shabd yoga amongst them, it BEGINS with a simple ‘non-dual’ statement and then proceeds to say something like ‘but for those who are unable to understand, the following meditation practices are provided’. This kind of thing is prominent in a wide array of ancient and classical texts which were the origins of today’s RS practice.
In other words, if you don’t understand this simple truth, you are already enlightened, keep yourself amused in the meantime with this meditation practice………:o)

there is neither “something”, nor “nothing”.
there is no “BEING” as an object to remove.
there is no “merging”.
there is no necessity to “reach that state” of “just being”.
being is not a “state”.
the so-called “cosmic” is an illusion.
there is no one to have “knowledge”.
no “knowledge” is necessary.
the so-called “journey” is an illusion.
the so-called “duality” is an illusion.
there is no “self” existing that can separate from an illusory “duality”.
there is no “duality” existing for an illusory “self” to separate from.
no “journey” is “essential”.
no such “knowledge of your self” exists.
there is no “state” to be “experienced”.
there is no “going from duality to non-duality”.
Aman said: “The way of ramana maharshi is not so easy.”
— there was no such “way”. and ‘self-abidance’ (and ramana maharshi’s self-abidance) was/is completely natural and effortless. those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions.
Aman said: ” The way he got his enlightenment”
— there was no such “way”. his realization was spontaneous. those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions.
Aman said: “I don’t think we are capable of that simply because his way was of knowledge & he was evolved enough to stay in that knowledge of self.”
— that is factually incorrect. there was no “his way”, nor “of knowledge”, nor “was evolved”. that is not where he abided, and it is not what he said and taught. those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions.
Aman said: ” In the vedas this path is considered the most dangerous because for a common man to be in that knowledge 24 hours a day is practically impossible.”
— that is absolutely incorrect. the vedas and upanishads most certainly do NOT say that atma-vichara, atma-jnana, or sahaja samadhi is “the most dangerous” or “practically impossible”.
Aman said: “how does one achieve the so called state of just being without shifting from the present condition we are already in.”
— “being” is not a “state”. and this so-called “being” is not different from the so-called “present state”.
Aman said: “if we can remove all these covers on our true self then maybe that’s the right way to go instead of just reading some theory & believing it without any first hand experience.”
— there are no “covers”, nor is there any “true self”, nor is there anyone here other than Aman who is advocating “just reading some theory” or just “believing”.
Aman said: “I think only experience can fully satisfy this emptiness.”
— experience is always transitory, and is fundamentally un-satisfactory (not able to “satisfy”).
Aman said: “but yet we still don’t have any experience of our true self”
— it is not “an experience”. there is no one to “have”. there is no one to “experience” a “true self”.
Aman said: “I think that’s what gives us the actual knowledge of the BEING state.”
— “BEING” (SAT) is not a “state”. there is no such “knowledge of”. so-called “being” (sat) IS “knowledge” (jnana). there is no separation or difference.

My entire previous comment was in response to Aman (not to Manjit).
In addition:
Aman said: “The way of ramana maharshi is not so easy.”
— those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions. there was no such “way”. and ‘self-abidance’ (and ramana maharshi’s self-abidance) was/is completely natural and effortless.
Aman said: ” The way he got his enlightenment”
— those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions. there was no such “way”. his realization was spontaneous.
Aman said: “I don’t think we are capable of that simply because his way was of knowledge & he was evolved enough to stay in that knowledge of self.”
— those who are not informed should not make such kinds of false and incorrect assertions. that assertion is factually incorrect. there was no “his way”, nor “of knowledge”, nor “was evolved”. that is not where he abided, and that is not what he said or taught.
Aman said: ” In the vedas this path is considered the most dangerous because for a common man to be in that knowledge 24 hours a day is practically impossible.”
— that is absolutely incorrect. the vedas and upanishads most certainly do NOT say that atma-vichara, atma-jnana, or sahaja samadhi is “the most dangerous” or “practically impossible”.
Aman said: “how does one achieve the so called state of just being without shifting from the present condition we are already in.”
— “being” is not a “state”. and this so-called “being” is not different from the so-called “present state”.
Aman said: “if we can remove all these covers on our true self then maybe that’s the right way to go instead of just reading some theory & believing it without any first hand experience.”
— there are no “covers”, nor is there any “true self”, nor is there anyone here other than Aman who is advocating “just reading some theory” or just “believing”.
Aman said: “I think only experience can fully satisfy this emptiness.”
— experience is always transitory, and is fundamentally un-satisfactory (not able to “satisfy”).
Aman said: “but yet we still don’t have any experience of our true self”
— it is not “an experience”. there is no one to “have”. there is no one to “experience” a “true self”.
Aman said: “I think that’s what gives us the actual knowledge of the BEING state.”
— “BEING” (SAT) is not a “state”. nor is there any such “knowledge of”. so-called “being” (sat) IS “knowledge” (jnana) and vbice-versa. there is no separation or difference.

Dear Tulsi,
“We are already home because the end of the road was the start and there was never anywhere to go.”
I don’t disagree with your last statement– after all, it is a well known narrative of Zen and Vedanta. However, because you approach and express it through the lens of the discriminative mind, i.e. you imagine it, as opposed to ‘be’ the authentic source at the origin of the words and expressions themselves, you still apply traditional logic to it. If A is A then A is necessarily A. If the start and the end are one and the same then nothing in between can be admitted; no dynamic distinction can find an origin at the heart of an ever beginning and end that are one and the same and that do not contradict the unity that is inherent to Reality. Does it make any sense? Probably not.
But your rhetoric is simply arguing in favor of some well known narratives from the perspective of traditional logic–which belongs to the mind of discrimination. Simply reread how you write and present your propositions and narratives. You may eventually see how much you try to assert your points using the same logic that you decry. And thus you are led to make naive affirmations and blabber senselessly about them. Reread what you wrote and you may also come to realize that your characterizations of many aspects of life (religion, knowledge, etc), which are identical to those of Tony Parson btw, are terribly naive, narrow minded and reductionists. You cast almost everything into a particular and very narrow light–one that is always convenient with respect to your own narratives. On the one hand, you decry the words and the imagination. On the other hand, you have no problem/shame to distort and reduce life to caricatures of itself using words, in addition of implying implicitly that these views are the way it is …
Because all the narratives you presented in your post have been imagined by you, as opposed ‘to be’ and simply expressing/pointing to the reality evoked by the words and life of Ramana, Nisargadatta, Meister Echkart, Spinoza, etc. you are bound by the logic of the mind.
And the logic of the ambiguity, which is underlying the infinite and simple–i.e. unity– unfolding that is Life, is missed.
Authentic understanding is simple. Imagination is naive. The former will never deceive. The latter will eventually lead to suffering. Unfortunately, the poor souls haunting the spiritual scenes–on the internet or not–will always confuse naivity with simplicity.

From Alston’s “Sankara on the Absolute”:
“It seems clear that Gaudapada thought that the Buddhist works which he so freely quoted were only restating the old Upanishadic wisdom enunciated by Yajnavalkya, but in a clearer, more systematic form, better suited to the philosophic climate of his own day. Both the Madhyamikas and Gaudapada appeal to a special form of yoga that takes those who practicse it successfully to an experience that lies beyond the distinction of subject
and object. Thus Nagarjuna’s commentator Candrakirti says: ‘Objects are only perceived through the distorted double-vision (timira) of nescience. Their true nature (atman) is perceived by the masters through the yoga-of-non-vision (adarsana-yoga).’ This answers to the (originally
Buddhist) yoga-of-no-contact (asparsa-yoga) taught by Gaudapada and to his ‘experts in the Upanishadic wisdom who look upon the world as if it were a cloud-city seen in a dream’.”
Therefore…
“The unattainable is attained through its unattainment” — Nicholas of Cusa

I’m a lttle pissed off because I wrote a long response to some things Komposer and Aman wrote, and it got lost in the process of posting it. Sorry guys, I didn’t mean to ignore your questions and now because that clarification got lost Elephant is on my case, which is fine but I’m out of energy. That post would have addressed some of the interesting points he, Komposer and Aman took the time to raise. Anyway, I did carefully read your posts. Briefly:
Elephant wrote: “I don’t disagree with your last statement– after all, it is a well known narrative of Zen and Vedanta.”
…Cool. But if, as implied by the body of your comment that what I have said is imagination of the logical mind, then wouldn’t Zen and Vedanta be that also? Wouldn’t anything that is comprehensible?
Elephant said: “you imagine it, as opposed to ‘be’ the authentic source at the origin of the words and expressions themselves, you still apply traditional logic to it.”
…Yes, the words are imaginative reflections or memories of intuitive perception. As such, they can only be an idea of it, but not it. In that sense they are worthless, but maybe, in response, someones’s own intuition can be iginited and they can see what is true for themselves, if in fact there is any “thing” that is true. Maybe they will see there isn’t?
Elephant said- “..then nothing in between can be admitted”
..I don’t think there is really any beginning, end or in-between, but it would take a book to explain that and I still wouldn’t succeed.
Elephant said- “..which are identical to those of Tony Parson btw”
…Again, cool. I enjoyed one of his books. If reductionism means reducing things down to where nothing is left, then we can begin to understand (figuratively of course).
Elephant wrote- “all the narratives you presented in your post have been imagined by you, as opposed ‘to be’ and simply expressing/pointing to the reality evoked by the words and life of Ramana, Nisargadatta, Meister Echkart, Spinoza, etc”
…Very cool. I might have to get an agent and arrange a speaking tour. I could get a loincloth and get paying followers! There’s a potential devotee born every minute.$$$ But really, that’s all I was trying to do…point. At what? Well, see what you see.
Elephant wrote: “Authentic understanding is simple. Imagination is naive. The former will never deceive. The latter will eventually lead to suffering.”
…There’s one of those logical imaginations you’re scolding me for.
I’m tired. Over and out…for now.

For all the non-scientific guru-devotion minded, the authoritarian religious cultists, and the neophyte wannabe mystics:
What is Religion?
http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred1.html
Where Did Religion Come From?
http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred2.html
Why Study Religion?
http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred3.html
How Should We Study Religion?
http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred4.html
What is the Social Function of Religion?
http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred5.html
Where is Religion Heading?
http://members.tripod.com/~andrea65/sacred6.html

Hi Manjit
Somehow you made complete sense to me 🙂 thanks for sharing this.
Dear Tao
I really admire how much hard work you put in these discussions it’s a pleasure to see someone so much into all this. Now please don’t take this in a wrong way I really mean it 🙂

everything happens naturally and spontaneously all by itself. no “hard work” or effort is ever needed. and there is no “someone” existing who is “into all this”, or to “admire”.
this “Aman” and his dream of believing in sant mat and following a RS master and practicing meditation will continue on only until the final awakening occurs. then it will all simply vanish like the illusion that it always was and is.

if one does not truly understand what was meant by the above, then perhaps listening to these audio files will bring sufficient clarity:
http://www.satramana.org/html/downloads.htm

Komposer:
Please ignore my misleading words “just be as you are.” You said it yourself: “When you write, ‘be, as you really are’ there seems to be an implication that somehow I could be as I am really not, or as I a little am, or a lot am.” I think that’s right on. There’s nothing “we” can do to be or not be as we really are. No matter what, we’re being it.
You said- “Add the task of being nondual without being absorbed in anything as funny as the simpsons, and the difficulty gets ramped up…”
…Well then, here is my personalized dharma suggestion for you, for whenever you feel like being enlightened. Find a comfortable seat and put your hand down your pants as you, Al Bundy and many of us males are prone to do, for some inexplicable reason, and watch Laurel and Hardy in “The Piano Movers”.

some additional clarification is available in recorded tape format:
http://www.satramana.org/html/nome_tapes.htm

who…?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVXEiYyZKcY

“Prior to detaiiling 118 meditation practices, shabd yoga amongst them”-FALSE; I just read all 112(not 118)of the Vijnanbhairava tantras online and there’s nothing similar to shabd yoga listed.

Then you didn’t read well. All the three techniques of Surat Shabd Yoga (dhyan, simran and bhajan) are detailed in Vighyan Bhairava Tantra.

“All the three techniques of Surat Shabd Yoga (dhyan, simran and bhajan) are detailed in Vighyan Bhairava Tantra.”-BULLSHIT;if you can’t prove it by Listing each one by number then don’t even bother replying.

Hi DJ
I’m just curious which path do you follow?

It is obvious that DJ has not read Vigyan Bhairava Tantra. That is why he is barking.
If not, he has not been initiated. That is why he does not know what RSSB meditation means.
Vighyan Bhairava Tantra contains 112 forms of meditatation. According to classical texts, only 112 texts, nothing more nothing less. If there are additions, they are only derivatives of 112. IF there are less, then somebody has missed something.
According to legend, Shiva tells Parvati about 112 forms of meditation when she asks how an individual can dispel his ignorance. Read the translation by Paul Reps. If you want more detail, read commentaries by Osho Rajaneesh.
I am not here to convince fools like you, DJ.

Anywhere DJ here is the similarity between Vigyan Bhairava Tantra and Surat Shabd Yog.
THe numbers are references to VBT sutras.
5. Attention between Eyebrows,
let mind be before thought.
Let form fill with breath essence
to the top of the head
and there shower as light.
(This is the first RSSB technique of centring on the third eye. IF you do it, the form essence fills on the top of the head that is why you see radiant form of the master)
29. Devotion frees.
(this is the essence of RSSB)
30. Eyes closed,
See your inner being in detail.
Thus see your true nature.
(This is what happens when you advance in the technique)
34. Listen while the ultimate mystical
teaching is imparted.
Eyes still, without blinking,
at once, become absolutely free.
(This is what happens at the time of RSSB initiation)
38. Bathe in the center of sound,
As in the continuous sound of a waterfall.
Or, by putting the fingers in the ears,
Hear the sound of sounds.
(This is the Shabd technique of RSSB)
46. Stopping ears by pressing
And the rectum by contracting,
Enter the sound.
(This is also the shabd technique)
47. Enter the sound of your name And, through this sound, All sounds.
(This is your classic simran or mantra or chanting)
99. Feel yourself as pervading all directions, Far, near
(This is what an advanced RSSB meditators feel like)
For your information, these sutras are only indicators. If you do these techniques, the consequences are similar to Surat Shabd Yoga.
You still have any questions, DJ. Feel free to ask. Surat shabd yog is cut and paste from these lines.

Deepak, Your still full of shit! Here’s the webpage for the translation of Vighyan Bhairava Tantra I’m refering to and it’s nothing like the version by that cultmaster Osso Rajneesh you quoted: http://www.shivashakti.com/vijnan.htm
I would’nt believe anything that scoundrel wrote.

FYI, Osho didn’t translate it. Paul Reps — the writer on Zen — translated it. Get your facts right. DJ.

DJ, I checked your link. It’s dubious. Paul Reps — best known for Zen Flesh, Zen Bones — is considered an authority on Oriental spiritual literature. Osho quoted him in his book while acknowledging the translation. If you still don’t believe me. You may buy the book — Zen Flesh, Zen Bones by Paul Reps. It is in the initial chapter.

The translation in you link has some flaws. Even then, the cut and paste of RSSB is obvious. Is it not?
I won’t say it is the RSSB flaw. VBT has quoted just about every meditation technique in the 112.

Dj, if you still don’t believe me, then search VBT in Wiki. You will find Paul Reps at the top. And, if you still don’t believe me, I can’t help you. Then I am afraid there is only one conclusion. Ask me what? I will tell you.

Dear Anonymous/DJ, your question has got me to re-read the Vijnanabhairava tantra! It has been several years since I last read this work, and I am sure my posts are full of what I would consider to be inconsequential & irrelevant mistakes, such as absent-mindedly recalling 118 meditation techniques not 112! I would hope I have the courtesy of double-checking the details on issues of slightly more consequence?
As an aside and whilst keeping Brian’s latest blog on internet courtesy in mind (with which I wholeheartedly agree, despite myself being one of those who has many times engaged in less than edifying ‘debates’ :), I would like to note a pet concern of mine. What is it with multiple ids, anonymous posters who appear familar, new posters who don’t even introduce themselves and just abrubptly interject with aggressive comments, and appear familiar with the poster(s) they are responding to? No personal context, history, pov etc? Of course this is the right of people to do, but is it really just me who thinks this whiffs of insincerity, deception etc?? It certainely isn’t conducive to genuine debate and/or intellectual growth?
Anyways, I’ve just reread the VBT. Here’s a good link:
http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Sruti-Smriti/Sutras/Vijnanabhairava.html
I remember when I first read this piece, I was blown away. Up until then, I had read hundreds upon hundreds of different meditation practices from both eastern & western mystical & occult schools. I used to continuously research, addicted to the buzz of finding a new meditation technique, perhaps hoping that the next would be the secret, special one! Reading the Vijnanabhairava for the first time, I was convinced that this special piece contained within it the basic essence of every single other meditation technique I had come across! I strained to think of something which was not *hinted* at within this work, and I don’t really recall that I did?
It really is very special.
Personally, I’m not really sure where you’re coming from in saying shabd yoga is not in there? I will *speculate* though, though of course I may be wrong entirely. A couple of points to keep in mind. The VBT is like the BASIC indices of every meditation method. It does not go into any depth at all, just provides a basic overview, like an index of methods. Secondly, there is the shabd yoga that has evolved in India over the last few thousand years, of which the RS method is only a sub-division of, with it’s own peculiarities and individual ‘quirks’. However, the VBT contains every aspect of the RS path amongst it’s 118 methods. The only difference is the DEPTH into which it goes (obviously very limited), and the conceptual/theological/cosmological clothing with which the techniques are draped. In essence, the RS method is clearly described.
Of course, if you took shabd yoga in it’s most complete form, such as that practised by Kabir & Nanak, then there are many more parts of the VBT which are relevant, but those techs are not taught or explained to RS students, so will not be recognised! This text’s relevance can only fully be grasped if it is understood how it relates to texts such as hathayogapradipika, gherandasamhita etc to yogis like Kabir & Nanak, on to today’s RS path. Also, the text is pretty advanced, there are ‘methods’ described therein which are actually more like ‘attainments’ within this RS path. Ahh, a very many pathed subject! All in all, I personally think it beyond doubt contains the essence of the RS yoga, as well as even more advanced practices!
Here are the relevant parts to the RS shabd yoga:
Dhyan (nirat):
“31. Focus your attention between your eyebrows, keep your mind free from any dualistic thought, let your form be filled with breath essence up to the top of your head and there, soak in radiant spatiality. ”
“36. Plug the seven openings of your head with your fingers and merge into the bindu, the infinite space between your eyebrows. ”
37. If you meditate in your heart, in the upper center or between your eyes, the spark which will dissolve discursive thought will ignite, like when brushing eyelids with fingers. You will then melt into supreme consciousness. ”
Shabd:
“38. Enter the center of spontaneous sound which resonates on its own like the uninterrupted sound of a waterfall. Or, sticking your fingers in your ears, hear the sound of sounds and reach Brahman, the immensity. ”
And, my favourite part of this text:
“11-13. From an absolute standpoint, Bhairava is not associated with letters, nor with phonemes, nor with the three Shakti, nor with breaking through the chakras, nor with any other belief, and Shakti does not constitute his essence. All these concepts taught in the scriptures are aimed at those whose mind is still too immature to grasp the supreme reality. They are mere appetizers meant to spur aspirants toward ethical behavior and spiritual practice so that they can realize some day that the ultimate nature of Bhairava is not separate from their own Self.
14-17. Mystical ecstasy isn’t subject to dualistic thought, it is completely free from any notion of location, space or time. This truth can only be touched by experience. It can only be reached by those entirely freed from duality and ego, and firmly, fully established in the consciousness of the Self. This state of Bhairava is filled with the pure bliss of unity between tantrika and the universe. Only this state is the Shakti. In the reality of one’s own nature thus recognized, containing the entire universe, one reaches the highest sphere. Who then could be worshipped? Who then could be fulfilled by this worship? Only this condition recognized as supreme is the great Goddess.”

Dear Mr. Brian Hines,
I believe that you are the writer of “Life is Fair” book, which is a very good book.
Refer to your story above, I hope that you actually have been initiated by the Master.
As it has been mention in any Sant mat book, you need to have a fully concentrated meditation to be succesful, and also should be brave enough to pass the Gate.
Keep trying and don’t loose faith. Regards

The readers will find amazing material in this simple book on the
Relationship between a Guru and the disciple
by
Dadashri
I have recently translated it and it is on the web , free
http://www.dadashri.org/gurudisciple.html
Hope it helps those who have been confused between gurus and enlightened masters
Cheers
shuddha
http://www.dadashri.org

hi all,
i wanna know that in present`s time is there any true sadguru like kabirji is present in todays time who takes the power to reach us satlok..i m n search for last too much years…

Vishu,
No one can answer your question.
Let’s say I tell you Guru X is a true satguru. How do you know if I know that?
If I tell you the guru says he is a true satguru like Kabir, how do you know he is telling me the truth? If he is being honest, how do you know if he is deluded or not? If 10,000 followers say he is a true satguru, how do you know they really know this? How do you know Kabir was a true satguru? How do you know there is such a thing as a true satguru? What if there isn’t such a thing and people just think there is? How do you know? It is a matter of faith because no one can know. How do Christians know Jesus was the son of God? How do Muslims know Mohammed was Allah’s messenger. How do Muslims know Allah even exists? How do you know satlok exists? If the guru says there is satlok, how do you know if he really knows this?
Find a guru you like and follow him/her. Maybe you will find what you seek, maybe not. Maybe what you seek can’t be found.

Type O’s advice is good.
If you want a guru, find one you like and follow him/her (most likely him). Then you will learn something–either it works for you or it doesn’t. taking action is a good way to learn.

Why bother following a guru whatsoever?
Robert Paul Howard

You start off by saying that it IT IS A PLEASURE TO HEAR FROM ANOTHER HERETIC??? Why do you find it pleasing that somebody is disrespecting a faith without fully understanding what this faith is about? It is very pleasing to see internet sites such as these because to me it shows how wrong all the information is and makes me even more happier to know that I understand the teachings and what this path is about? I am sorry to hear that people like Fred, who have been on this path for 37 years, have not understood this path at all. It is because of people like Fred that The Master stresses the importance of reading, researching into all the faiths and practices in this world and then making a decision about this path. Before one applies for initiation on this path, they stress the importance of reading sites on the internet such as this one beforehand so that people understand.
Fistly, Fred is talking about how this path has become an organisation! People in this world are imperfect and no matter how much The Master has objected and advised satsangis not to do certain things, if they don’t listen what more can he do??? Yet he still humbly tries.
If somebody folds their hands and says Radha Soami – this is a sign of respect. Some pepole just use it as a greeting and it reminds one another of the master and the path. However, some people just use it instead of saying Hello…but what is wrong with that. If the master one day said ‘do not use RS at all’…wouldn’t that be over the to top and stupid??? Then you would all be saying how the master has taken a trivial issue and turned it into a major one. And again, Radha Soami as a greeting is used by the people of this world? Nevertheless, if you look up the meaning of RITUAL – this is something that is repeatedly done. Meditation can be a ritual. Everything you do at regular intervals is a ritual. How do you expect to live in this world??? Now are you going to call eating your evening meal a ritual? Yes, No…Just think about it.
Babaji has never allowed any photographs to be displayed in the satsangs in the UK! one master to the left the other to the right, that sounds silly and i’m sure The Master would object to this – solely because there is no need to place a photo in a certain area. However, these pictures are placed there by people with love in their hearts. I don’t know why they are being placed in your centre. I will write to the Dera to advsie them of this! But in any case, if a photo is displayed it is in rememberance of babaji and that is why the satsangis placed them there.
In a question and answer session in the UK, Babaji has himself humbly said that sant mat is not the only way to god realistion – “IT IS ONE OF THE WAYS” Those are his exact words!
Faith in the master and on this spiritual path, comes with experience in personal and spiritual matters. When one experiences this – then firm belief in the path is there.
Kind Regards.

Arjun, you’re wrong. Many people who comment on this site, including me, understand Sant Mat very well. All we’re doing is sharing our experiences, which is what you say (at the end of your comment) is all-important: experience.
What bothers you, it seems, is that other people haven’t had the same experiences you’ve had. Yet you also admit that even the guru has said that Sant Mat is only one of the ways to god realization (I’d say “truth realization.”)
So some people have found that other ways are better than Sant Mat and RSSB meditation. And they enjoy sharing those ways. What’s wrong with that, given that Sant Mat isn’t the only way?

It doesn’t matter what ‘spiritual’ group you are part of, members will always start rituals.
For me, Sant Mat is much more scientific when I don’t attent satsangs becaues I don’t have to deal with others on the ‘path’ (particularly religious minded Eastern practitioners). This way, I practise meditation at home and don’t have to deal with the ‘religious’ alarm bells that go off when some satsangis discuss their understanding of that path or what is right and wrong.
I understand the hurt some here feel after they threw themselves into Sant Mat wholeheartedly, just believing the teacher was God incarnate, believing it all of it blindly. That is bound to happen when you try to delude yourself into believing something by taking someone’s word for it rather than from your own experience and when the assertions you believe in are not easily and quickly verifiable.
I went through the same thing. But then I returned to Sant Mat – at least to the practise of it rather than the belief, so that now I only truly believe what I experience directly.
Occasionally I attend a satsang, try to take in anything I find useful, discarding the blind faith elements (of which there can be many). I usually find I can make use of at least one thing from every satsang. I may stay and chat, but then generally make a run for it before someone says some religious or cult-like and spoils it all for me.
Actually I think one of the problems I have with satsang is as soon as I am around satsangis my inner brainwashed cult child comes out… and I hate that little naive judgemental bastard with a passion. Maybe it was my religous upbringing? I can feel there’s a little brainwashed cult child gap in my brain that is constantly trying to get filled.

Smack,
You stated,
“I went through the same thing. But then I returned to Sant Mat – at least to the practise of it rather than the belief, so that now I only truly believe what I experience directly.”
—Could you explain the need to “practice” meditation? What is it about meditation, that requires practice? Does practice bring something special to meditation?
—If you have experienced somthing directly, then, why the the need to truly believe in it? Are you saying – your not sure what you are experiencing directly,
or just like the idea of a belief system?
—Any meditation visuals or sounds, you could comment on? Would be interesting to read.
Thanks,
Roger

Arjun,
Interesting collection of statements,
“Nevertheless, if you look up the meaning of RITUAL – this is something that is repeatedly done. Meditation can be a ritual. Everything you do at regular intervals is a ritual. How do you expect to live in this world??? Now are you going to call eating your evening meal a ritual? Yes, No…Just think about it.”
—Worth the time to reexamine the word: ritual. So, meditation is a spiritual or religious ritual?
—What happens in the absence of a ritual? Do bad things occur? Such as a non-conceptual non-mental activity?
“It is because of people like Fred that The Master stresses the importance of reading, researching into all the faiths and practices in this world and then making a decision about this path. Before one applies for initiation on this path, they stress the importance of reading sites on the internet such as this one beforehand so that people understand.”
—So, which Master stresses the importance of reading this site(church of the churchless?)beforehand, so that they will understand? Kinda confusing, that a Master would recommend the Churchless website.
“Faith in the master and on this spiritual path, comes with experience in personal and spiritual matters. When one experiences this – then firm belief in the path is there.”
—Another reference to “faith” and how it is generated from personal and spiritual matters.
—In addition, how a “firm belief” is produced from such experiences.
—So, is it correct to state that faith and firm belief, are an important aspect of the SantMat path and teachings?
Thanks for any replies,
Roger

The masters, maybe all those that are concerned with true seekers after truth, encourage these seekers to satisfy their intellects to the utmost absolute satisfaction.
That is they would rather the adherent or seeker takes 30 or 50 years or his entire lifetime in satisfying his inquisitive intellect to its absolute unencumbered satisfaction initially rather than to take initiation into a discipline or path and then later in his journey to start doubting and detracting and looking to start satisfying his dissatisfied intellect only then.
This is tantamount to going about the business back to front, wrong way round, cart before the horse.
So if it requires that true spiritual seekers need to satisfy their entire intellectual reasoning and inquisition up front, then it is far better to do so in advance and not later so as to avoid bitter disillusionment later on, as is found in many visitors to this site.
And therefore if one is seeking this intellectual ratification through mediums such as reading internet sites such as this one before making ones mind up unequivocally, it is far better to be exposed to such alternate consternating deliberations in advance than to get buffeted by such seriously debilitating intellectually stimulated doubts later on.

joshilan,
Thanks for your comment.
You stated,
“The masters, maybe all those that are concerned with true seekers after truth, encourage these seekers to satisfy their intellects to the utmost absolute satisfaction.”
—Is “intellectual activity” involved in the “true seeking” of the truth?
—Or, is the “absolutely true seeking” a non-intellectual non-conceptual activity?
—If not a “true” seeker, what kind of seeker, is there, for One that is utmostly and absolutely not satisfied, intellectually? What happens to those seekers?
Thanks for any replies,
Roger

There are four functions of the psychic organ. The internal psyche, which we generally call Manas or mind in ordinary language, has four functions. In Sanskrit these four functions are designated as Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara and Chitta. Manas is ordinary, indeterminate thinking – just being aware that something is there. Manas is the work of the mind. Buddhi determines, decides and logically comes to a conclusion that something is such-and-such a thing. That is another aspect of the operation of the psyche – Buddhi or intellect. The third form of it is Ahamkara – ego, affirmation, assertion, ‘I know’. “I know that there is some object in front of me, and I also know that I know. I know that I am existing as this so-and-so.” This kind of affirmation attributed to one’s own individuality is the work of Ahamkara, known as egoism. The subconscious action, memory, etc., is caused by Chitta. It is the fourth function. So Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara, Chitta – these are the four basic functions of the internal organ, the psychological organ.
These are the mouths through which consciousness grasps objects from outside, and we feel secure and happy because all these things are acting at the same time in some form or other, with more emphasis or less emphasis. Any one can act at any time, under special given conditions; and inasmuch as any one can act at any time, it is virtually saying that all are acting at the same time. Therefore we are objectively conscious through the operative media of the individual consciousness acting in the waking condition. We are aware of this vast world of sensory perception, and we go on contacting these objects of the world through these media.

The human individual is a microcosmic specimen of the entire creative process of the cosmos. The layers or degrees of reality which constitute the composition of the universe of creation are also to be found in the human individual in the form of the Kosas or the sheaths, as they are called – physical, vital, mental, intellectual and causal-known in the Sanskrit language as Annamaya Kosa, Pranomaya Kosa, Manomaya Kosa, Vijnanamaya Kosa and Anandamaya Kosa. These are the five layers of objectivity which, in a gradational form, externalize consciousness.
The grosser the sheath, the greater is the force of externalization, so that when consciousness enters the physical body we are totally material in our outlook, physical in our understanding and assessment of values, intensely body-conscious, and know nothing about ourselves except this body. It is only when we go interior that we have access to the subtler layers of our personality – not otherwise.

johilan, you state nice theories. But there’s little or no evidence that what you say is correct. Repeating religious dogma, whether or East or West, doesn’t make it true.

Roger
Is “intellectual activity” involved in the “true seeking” of the truth?
We can only operate from the state of conscious awareness that we find ourselves, if this state of awareness is limited to the level of experiential understanding as derived by the Buddhi or intellect at this level of conscious awakening, then it is by way of the intellect at this limited level of our existing experiential capacity by which we need make our limited assessments and deductions.
However in spite of this limitation there remains a higher more subtle force at work behind the veil that is the grosser limited curtain of the conditional Buddhi or intellect.

To some a theory is true and to others it remains a dogma.
To Einstein the theory of relativity was true before it became readily accepted by the scientific community at large, through which medium of acceptability did the scientific community and humanity at large eventually accede that the Theory of Relativity is in actuality true?
Because one cannot readily accept a truth to be true does not make it any less true than it already is.

joshilan, there was (and still is) plenty of objective evidence that the theory of relativity was true. Early on, some astronomical observations showed that the curvature of light around the sun was exactly as Einstein predicted — if I recall the history correctly.
So you’re wrong: if a theory can’t be proven to be true, it isn’t true until it can be proven. Sure, there are all kinds of subjective truths, but we’re speaking of objective truths here — those which don’t depend on the subjective consciousness of any individual.
You’re free to accept certain things as true, just as you’re free to like vanilla ice cream more than chocolate. But that doesn’t make vanilla objectively more tasty than chocolate. People often make the mistake of confusing personal experiences with objective truth, just as you seem to be doing.

Joshilan wrote: “So if it requires that true spiritual seekers need to satisfy their entire intellectual reasoning and inquisition up front, then it is far better to do so in advance and not later so as to avoid bitter disillusionment later on, as is found in many visitors to this site.”
–One may satisfy their intellect for the time being, but after years have passed perspectives change and new insights, doubts and questions arise. My point being, the intellect is subject to change. No?
One thing I would like to clear up. I have noticed that many RS believers who visit this blog assume that those who left RS and comment here are “disillusioned” and “bitter”. Well, that may be true for some, but in my view most ex’ers who comment here do not seem to be bitter.
The word “disillusioned” has two meanings according to Websters:
a) disappointed, dissatisfied
b) to leave without illusion or naive faith
and trust
I can only speak for myself, but I do not feel bitter or disappointed. RS was just shed like an old skin and I moved on without illusion or naive faith and trust in RS. However, I find the topic of RS interesting at times because of my long association and familiarity with it. Hence my frequent discussion of it here.
I am now amazed that I ‘bought into’ RS hook, line and sinker. It is stunning to me how so many continue to do so, but at the same time I understand. The struggles of life and the dilemma of death can be overwhelming. It is nice to have a rock to stand on, but the rock can be confining. I now enjoy the freedom of the mysterious, unknowable and wonderous abyss. I enjoy facing empty space like the guy on the sofa. There is peace in that vastness.

tucson, nicely said. People like Joshilan don’t understand that life isn’t a matter of intellectual understanding, but of directly experienced existence. Thinking things out is fine for some problems, like “why is my computer acting up?”
However, life isn’t a question that can be answered intellectually. So all the ponderings in the world about whether Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sant Mat, or whatever is the right religion don’t answer the question: What is life all about?
As you said, we understand more and more about life by living, not merely by thinking. The sort of theological investigation Joshilan advocates doesn’t get us very far, in my experience. Try something, see how it works, then adjust your trying — that’s what I’ve found to be effective, not sticking with a failed approach.

SmackDat says:
“I understand the hurt some here feel after they threw themselves into Sant Mat wholeheartedly, just believing the teacher was God incarnate, believing it all of it blindly.’
— I’d like to mention that I am not quite so sure that so many here actually “threw” themselves “into Sant Mat wholeheartedly, just “believing it all of it blindly”.
I certainly did not. I did not ever believe that “the teacher was God incarnate”, and I also did not believe it all “blindly”. I approached it pragmatically, and only as a particular type of yoga practice – minus dogma and theology, and minus the ‘master is GIHF’ belief.
I also did not “delude” myself “into believing something by taking someone’s word for it”
[note: and also, contrary to the notions expressed in some other comments, I have no sort of ‘bitterness’]
“I went through the same thing.”
— No, I really don’t think so. I am quite sure that you did not go through “the same thing” at all.
“But then I returned to Sant Mat – at least to the practise of it rather than the belief, so that now I only truly believe what I experience directly.”
— I doubt that too. Because if you are practicising, then you must be believing to some degree.
“Occasionally I attend a satsang, […] I usually find I can make use of at least one thing from every satsang.”
— What are you looking for there, that you feel that there is something there for you to “make use of”?
“there’s a little brainwashed cult child gap in my brain that is constantly trying to get filled”
— Yes, thats exactly why I said that its unlikely that you have been through “the same thing” at all.
But hey, if you like to do the RS brand of meditation, then thats entirely your choice.

Joshilan,
No, I do not agree that these Santmat masters “encourage these seekers to satisfy their intellects to the utmost absolute satisfaction”. That is nothing but typical standard RS cult propaganda.
I have no such “bitter disillusionment”, and I also do not see that that is true of “many visitors to this site” either.
You said: “if one is seeking this intellectual ratification through mediums such as reading internet sites such as this one before making ones mind up”
— Please identify who here is into “making ones mind up”?
Also, there is no necessity for you to post yoga system dogma about “Manas, Buddhi, Ahamkara and Chitta”, and “Annamaya Kosa, Pranomaya Kosa, Manomaya Kosa, Vijnanamaya Kosa and Anandamaya Kosa”.
You said: “To some a theory is true and to others it remains a dogma.”
— No, theory is only theory, and not necessarily “true”.
You said: “Because one cannot readily accept a truth to be true does not make it any less true than it already is.”
— No, it is not “already” “true”, unless it is clearly proven to be true. You are trying to blur the line between mere assumptions, and truth.

Response to tAo (and Roger re meditation experiences ):
“I went through the same thing” “– No, I really don’t think so. I am quite sure that you did not go through “the same thing” at all.”
Yes, as I am not able to assess what everyone here subjectively experienced I cannot say that I indeed went through the same thing. My experience involved: ignoring the inconsistencies, then questioning the inconistencies, lots of research on the net (David Lane’s work is outstanding), getting annoyed, hurt, angry that I even got sucked into it all and then I got rid of the books, stopped meditating and completely left it for a few years.
“But then I returned to Sant Mat – at least to the practise of it rather than the belief, so that now I only truly believe what I experience directly.” “– I doubt that too. Because if you are practicising, then you must be believing to some degree.”
Yes, I do believe to some degree. My belief is based on experience in meditation (limited as it might be).
Let’s say you are in another country and ask a local to recommend a tourist attraction. The local says “Go straight ahead and you’ll see a yellow lamp post, turn right, walk 500 metres and you’ll see a christmas tree, cross the road and walk through the alley where two buskers are singing Dixie… etc, etc, etc. and then you will come across an alien spaceship”.
So I walk down the street – and I see the lampost. So I stand there for a moment and think “He was correct about the lamp post, maybe if I turn right here there will be a christmas tree”. I don’t know if there is a christmas tree, maybe he just knows about the lampost and nothing else… but he was correct about the lampost… so, as a result, I develop have a teeny weeny bit of trust in this crazy local (tempered with my ever present cynicism).
Sure, the trust will be shattered if I don’t see that christmas tree, but for now I’m turning right and following the directions.
As to the content of my ‘experiences’ – I’ll think about posting them. They’re not mind blowing, but they’re enough to keep me meditating and to keep me enjoying meditation. Yes, I know one of the problems with Sant Mat is that the teachers say you shouldn’t share your experiences, which keeps everyone in the dark. But I work so hard for my little morsels that I don’t feel like risking them in the off off chance that the teachers are right. But I will consider posting – I mean, it’s anonymous right?
“Occasionally I attend a satsang, […] I usually find I can make use of at least one thing from every satsang.” “– What are you looking for there, that you feel that there is something there for you to “make use of”?”
Probably for the same reasons I visit this site: to learn from others’ thoughts on Sant Mat, positive or negative. I like the topic, I’m interested in it. I don’t know why I like the topic. Why are we all here?
I guess sometimes I attend for the community, to be around others who are involved or were involved in Sant Mat. Just as a model railway enthusiast might enjoy meeting other enthusiasts at the annual model railway convention.
“there’s a little brainwashed cult child gap in my brain that is constantly trying to get filled”
— Yes, thats exactly why I said that its unlikely that you have been through “the same thing” at all.
Not sure. You may be right but I don’t have a way of proving of disproving this.

Tucson,
I would be interested in your thinking as to why in fact ppl do appear to buy into RS ‘hook, line and sinker’ as you say.
It appears most on here, even the dissillusioned or skin-shedding ex-satsangis did at one stage make this buy in.
You must have given some thought as to why RS, as opposed to various other mystic or spiritual traditions, appears to have such a pull?

Seems to me RS encourages the intellect up to a point.
But at that point there must be a disconnect, since one has to let go of the intellect to pierce the veil and connect with a different state to achieve some sort of mystical experience or gnosis.
I do not know if I believe this personally, since my skeptical western mind is simply conditioned to question and to reason; but perhaps this is precisely why many ex-satsangis do become disillusioned with RS. Perhaps deep down they always harbour this doubt, however rigidly they try adhere to the mechanical tenets of the RS tradition.
Seems to me its not so much a case of following these mechanical tenets religously, as opposed to them being tools to try and open up the mind and release it from the supposed clutter of the intellect.
It follows that those that have had a mystical experience continue to follow RS, while those that do not become dissilusioned.
Such a mystical experience may be an illusion, and herein seems probably lies the fundamental problem, which is if one truly lets go from the intellect, the question then becomes do we enter a realm of raised consciousness or do we enter a realm of make-believe, fantasy and illusion?
I guess that is the million-dollar question.
And I do not know if its resolvable, since those that enter RS with a western questioning mind geared more towards rationalism, would seem inherently predisposed away from entering into this different state, one has to almost let oneself go fully. The danger of this appears to me to be the potential for cult followers.
But this seems to be the quid pro quo, which is that one has to risk one’s mind as it were, to let it go totally, and i’m not sure if the dissillusioned ex-satsangis wherever truly able to do this. I doubt very much I would be able too either.

Joshilan,
You stated,
“We can only operate from the state of conscious awareness that we find ourselves, if this state of awareness is limited to the level of experiential understanding as derived by the Buddhi or intellect at this level of conscious awakening, then it is by way of the intellect at this limited level of our existing experiential capacity by which we need make our limited assessments and deductions. However in spite of this limitation there remains a higher more subtle force at work behind the veil that is the grosser limited curtain of the conditional Buddhi or intellect.”
—What is the “higher more subtle force” at work behind the veil? The veil, being the intellect. Can the intellect comprehend this higher subtle force? If not, then how does One know of a higher force, in the first palace?
Smack,
You stated,
“As to the content of my ‘experiences’ – I’ll think about posting them. They’re not mind blowing, but they’re enough to keep me meditating and to keep me enjoying meditation. Yes, I know one of the problems with Sant Mat is that the teachers say you shouldn’t share your experiences, which keeps everyone in the dark. But I work so hard for my little morsels that I don’t feel like risking them in the off off chance that the teachers are right. But I will consider posting – I mean, it’s anonymous right?”
—So, meditations experiences require “hard” work? Were you trained to think in this manner?
—Did the teachers train you on the “risk” that would come into play, if you discussed your meditation experiences?
Thanks for any replies,
Roger

George, a couple of responses:
I don’t think there’s any correlation between mystical experience and remaining on a mystic path — such as RSSB. I’m aware of many initiates who say they’ve never had a mystical experience, yet have remained an active part of the organization. Others, like some who regularly comment on this blog, have reported significant mystical experiences and are no longer members of RSSB.
It depends on the mystical experience, for one thing. In my case, I’ve had what I consider “mystical” experiences, if what we mean by this word is direct intuitive insight into the nature of reality. The only thing was, those experiences weren’t very compatible with the RSSB philosophy and have led me in a different direction.
Your million dollar question is a good one. However, I also don’t think there is any correlation between totally letting go of the contents of one’s mind, and having a mystical experience (or staying on the RSSB path).
The RSSB meditation approach decidedly advises against totally letting go. The initiate is advised to continually keep his/her mantra in mind, along with visualizing the form of the guru. If inner sights or sounds appear, the mantra is to be repeated as a supposed check on the validity of the experience.
So this is by no means totally letting go of the mind. To do that, I’d say someone has to let go of dogma, expectations, and any defined belief system.

Brian,
I find that strange, but i take your word for it.
Surely the goal of RS is to unite with the sound, othewise why do it? Elements like vegetarianism or meditation or living a chaste purer life exist in many other mystic traditions.
The mechanical tenets for achieving this, i.e. vegetarianism, purity, etc are surely all just tools forming part of a method that have been found through practical experience by the saints/satgurus through the ages to supposedly be the best method for achieving such a connection or unity.
I don’t really want to get into semantics about what constitues a mystical experience, but rather focus on the plain intended meaning, which is as you indicate some sort of unity or connection with a creative force or sound where one experiences this gnosis or direct intutive insight into the nature of reality.
Such a feeling must surely be overwhelming if experienced, supernatural in effect. Why would someone get off the RS path having had such a profound experience. Surely, the love for their guru and his teachings would be massive.
In contrast, I understood your experiences to be very different and far more banal when I asked this to you a while back. Perhaps I have misunderstood your reasons for leaving Sant Mat.

“Such a feeling must surely be overwhelming if experienced, supernatural in effect. Why would someone get off the RS path having had such a profound experience. Surely, the love for their guru and his teachings would be massive.”
—So, a meditation experience is an “overhelming” feeling, which is supernatural, in effect? Is this correct? Do feelings and the Supernatural, go hand in hand?
—“Why would someone get off the RS path having had such a profound experience.” This is a good question. Must be something, possibly incomplete, about such experiences. Including, the profound ones.
—How would One obtain a massive love for the guru and his teachings? Does this come from training sessions?

George, you’re making a logical (and existential) error. You’re assuming that you know what reality — let’s call it “ultimate” — is, and then making a further assumption that if someone doesn’t experience that assumed reality, they haven’t been in touch with what is real.
This is circular reasoning. What I mean is, your comment assumes that the practices enjoined by a particular spiritual system, in this case RSSB, lead to an experience of ultimate reality. However, what evidence is there for this? Why don’t you assume that Zen Buddhist practice, or Christian practice, or Wiccan practice leads to higher knowledge?
Such is the foundation of my churchlessness. Which also is the foundation of many deep mystical teachings. Or rather, unteachings. Either we approach ultimate reality with a belief that we already know what it is (the “via positiva,” as its called), or we approach ultimate reality in a spirit of unknowing (“via negativa”).
In your comment you imply that ultimate reality manifests as sound and light. But this puts bounds around reality, and there are many other hypotheses about the foundation of existence (including the Buddhist notion that there is no foundation).
Do you see what I’m saying? Meditators and mystics have many different kinds of profound experiences. There is no evidence that any of these are more real (a word that is tough to define in mysticism) than the other experiences.
Zen, for example, along with Advaita, puts little or no emphasis on having a particular sensual experience, whether inner or outer. Rather, the notion is to change one’s whole way of seeing, of flipping consciousness around, in a sense.
Thus I don’t think it is possible to set up benchmarks for a “true” mystical experience, and then say this person had one, and this person didn’t. That’s why my blog tag line is “preaching the gospel of spiritual independence.” Each of us has our own subjective experience of inner reality. There’s no way around that.

Everything relative to true spiritual or mystical experience is a by product of love, prem, bhakti. Those hoping to have elevated spiritual or mystical experience without the fuel of the elevated consciousness propelling the experience are looking to try and achieve an impossibility.
Without the jiva or soul attaching to a higher more subtle and more powerful psychic energetic force and piercing the veil of the encrusted layers of karmic patterns that shroud and blanket the consciousness from penetrating into a state of rapture or love one can simply forget any talk or any idea of mystical or spiritual experience.
It is almost an anomaly that the soul or jiva will not be able to penetrate through the eye of the needle while still flabbergasted with the preconditioned covering and the attached intellect preventing its progress.
It is simply a natural process, no amount of discussion or ideological or intellectual ramification will create the circumstance or condition for the state of rapturous transport to take place, one would have to lose the one in order to gain the other, just as two lovers would have to lose each other in each other in order for love to be truly consummated.

Love is not something one can teach or get taught.
This is the anomaly of Love.
Capture it, or be captured by it, grasp it, lose yourself in it, become absorbed in it, lose your identity to become the other being, this is Love, and the beginning of mystical or spiritual transport or experience.
Love and thought or intellect are from differing facets of the human creative spectrum, one aspect is for functionality within the metabolism of the creative transference within the realms of the human experience and the other is for the elevation of the inherent energetic psychic or spiritual power at the core of all of it.

jyotisha,
You stated,
“Love is not something one can teach or get taught. This is the anomaly of Love.
Capture it, or be captured by it, grasp it, lose yourself in it, become absorbed in it, lose your identity to become the other being, this is Love, and the beginning of mystical or spiritual transport or experience.”
—Nothing wrong with love. So, no teaching of Love? Sounds ok.
—Therefore, this unteachable Love (caputed by, absorbed in, and lost identity in) is a non-conceptual non-mental activity? Sounds interesting.
—So, is “becoming the other Being” a non-conceptual non-mental… Being?
—If this is true, then, this is the beginning of the mystical or spiritual transport or experience?
—jyotisha, have you converted into this other being, as you described?
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

George wrote:
“Tucson,
I would be interested in your thinking as to why in fact ppl do appear to buy into RS ‘hook, line and sinker’ as you say.”
–To me it is simple. Sant Mat seemingly provides a solution to mortality and a way to cope with the difficulties of life. It offers a description of why life is the way it is. Since life is tough, people want a way to feel better, to feel they have a protector, a guide in all the uncertainty.
“It appears most on here, even the dissillusioned or skin-shedding ex-satsangis did at one stage make this buy in.”
–Yes, it is seductive, all the glorious inner regions, guidance and protection by the loving perfect master. Guaranteed return to “our true home” or God. To some, there is the appeal of belonging to a select group of “marked” souls destined out of billions to return to God.
“You must have given some thought as to why RS, as opposed to various other mystic or spiritual traditions, appears to have such a pull?”
–Of course you could also ask why Zen Buddhism or any other ‘way’ has more of a pull for some than RS. Different strokes for different folks. RS theology is more dramatic, with all the inner regions, than zen which may seem a bit dry to some. They like to surrender to the care of the father figure, the perfect master. It’s a warm coccoon.
“Seems to me RS encourages the intellect up to a point.”
–Only up to the point where you accept unquestioningly the dictates of the master. After that, in sant mat, intellect is seen simply as a tool to do your job and attend to your responsibilities, fullfilling your karmic obligations..to decide whether to put the car in drive or reverse and that sort of thing.
“But at that point there must be a disconnect, since one has to let go of the intellect to pierce the veil and connect with a different state to achieve some sort of mystical experience or gnosis.”
–Well, you can’t let go of the intellect because it goes its merry way despite all our efforts. We are mind and all appearance. Can an ocean stop oceaning? Different states are simply appearance. However, there may come a time when we recognize we are oceaning.
“I do not know if I believe this personally, since my skeptical western mind is simply conditioned to question and to reason; but perhaps this is precisely why many ex-satsangis do become disillusioned with RS. Perhaps deep down they always harbour this doubt, however rigidly they try adhere to the mechanical tenets of the RS tradition.”
–This is probably the way it is for some. As I said, for me it just dropped away. It no longer applied.
“Seems to me its not so much a case of following these mechanical tenets religously, as opposed to them being tools to try and open up the mind and release it from the supposed clutter of the intellect.”
–All this trying to release the mind from its clutter is like a dog chasing its tail. Just relax and peace comes automatically. Easier said than done because it is giving up the idea of a doer.
“It follows that those that have had a mystical experience continue to follow RS, while those that do not become dissilusioned.”
–Speaking for myself, I have had ‘mystical’ experiences, some of which I have touched upon occasionally on this blog, but that is all they are…experiences. Sometimes impressive but ultimately no more profound than This right now. I don’t need Sant Mat for This. This is it for me.
“Such a mystical experience may be an illusion, and herein seems probably lies the fundamental problem, which is if one truly lets go from the intellect, the question then becomes do we enter a realm of raised consciousness or do we enter a realm of make-believe, fantasy and illusion?”
–We enter realms of appearance. All appearance passes. In that way everything is an illusion in the sense that nothing stays the same or is permanent.
“I guess that is the million-dollar question.”
–The question is the answer.
“It follows that those that have had a mystical experience continue to follow RS, while those that do not become dissilusioned.”
–Speaking for myself, I have had ‘mystical’ experiences, some of which I have touched upon occasionally on this blog, but that is all they are…experiences. Sometimes impressive but ultimately no more profound than This right now. I don’t need Sant Mat for This. This is it for me.
“Such a mystical experience may be an illusion, and herein seems probably lies the fundamental problem, which is if one truly lets go from the intellect, the question then becomes do we enter a realm of raised consciousness or do we enter a realm of make-believe, fantasy and illusion?”
–Is a flower an illusion? It eventually disappears from awareness or it withers and dies. Same with all experiences whether exalted or mundane. We enter realms of appearance. All appearance passes. In that way everything is an illusion in the sense that nothing stays the same or is permanent.
“I guess that is the million-dollar question.”
–The question is the answer.
And I do not know if its resolvable, since those that enter RS with a western questioning mind geared more towards rationalism, would seem inherently predisposed away from entering into this different state, one has to almost let oneself go fully. The danger of this appears to me to be the potential for cult followers.
–Just let go, although it is not a choice but rather a recognition that letting go is already the case. Life goes on despite the idea of ‘I’. Cults never let go. They cling to ideas and objects.
“But this seems to be the quid pro quo, which is that one has to risk one’s mind as it were, to let it go totally, and i’m not sure if the dissillusioned ex-satsangis wherever truly able to do this. I doubt very much I would be able too either.”
–If you follow sant mat, you must let go of rational thought regarding the teachings because there is no evidence or rationale for belief. Some continue on for decades in the face of this and refuse to come to terms. They fear being cast adrift. ‘What do I do now?’. I say live. That’s all there is. Accept that and the ordinary becomes extraordinary.

jyotisha,
You stated,
“It is simply a natural process, no amount of discussion or ideological or intellectual ramification will create the circumstance or condition for the state of rapturous transport to take place, one would have to lose the one in order to gain the other, just as two lovers would have to lose each other in each other in order for love to be truly consummated.”
—So, no amount of discussion or ideological or intellectual ramification will create the circumstance or condition for the state of rapturous transport to take place.
—Only the “other” being can engage in this state of “rapturous” transport?
—Does the “other” being get off, when this rapturous transporting occurs? I mean, does the “other” being feel rapture?
—Sorry, I’m starting to giggle again, I don’t know why, I’m just giggling away. I know, I know, I’m being silly. I agree.

Jyotisha wrote:
“This is the anomaly of Love…Capture it, or be captured by it, grasp it, lose yourself in it, become absorbed in it, lose your identity to become the other being, this is Love, and the beginning of mystical or spiritual transport or experience.”
–This is the crux of the matter. Sant mat teaches there is some ‘other’ being to become. Some ‘other’ state or place to be. In sant mat time and space are reality.
To me there is no ‘other’ being, for It is what is living. No ‘other’ place to be for place is purely conceptual, an idea or appearance in mind. Whatever appears, I am there. I am already home. No matter where I go I am ‘here’. It is impossible to be anywhere else. How do we become what we are if we are it? How do we go where we are if we are already there?
Time and space do not exist in their own right. They come into apparent existence only as a mechanism by which events may become cognisable. They are only appearances and their apparent existence is deduced from the events they accompany and render perceptible. They are hypothetical inferences to aid in the cognisance of the universe we objectify, and they neither pre-exist nor survive apart from the events they accompany. So, we must Now be in the lap of god. Or better..we are the lap of god.

Hi Rog,
You old questioning devil you … wish i could answer, but am just trying to work my way through the RS minefield while searching for answers not more questions.
You might be a fan of Socrates who was a great fan of the question, he was also a great midfielder for Brazil.
Brian,
Nope i dont assume to know a single thing about ultimate reality, i find such a concept in itself quite overwhelming and am not even sure such a state or means of perception exists.
My limited understanding into such vague concepts is that RS is one of many mystic traditions that supposedly allows one to enter into some sort of raised consciousness in which one is able to unite with something bigger, with the one or ultimate reality or whatever ppl like to call it. I understand it is a feeling of a kindling like being in love, like returning home to the source and so on and so forth.
I have never experienced this, in fact i’m totally skeptical of anything remotely like it, but i presumed that this is the goal ppl entering RS are trying to achieve.
If not, what are ppl after? What were you after? I mean why did you not just go the zen route or yoga if it was mere meditation and clean living you were after?
I don’t argue for the existence or non-existence of such an ultimate reality. I don’t assume that any form of religion – mystical, mainstream or otherwise – provides any type of higher knowledge, but am interested in trying to find out.
My religion is science, but I like to try understand the viewpoint of others. Hence I simply am wondering what the goal is of ppl who join RS and this i assumed was reasonably self-evident, searching for this unity or some sort of profound mystic experience or gnosis.
It sounds like my understanding of RS is incorrect and that many ppl entered RS for other reasons, which means i obviously totally misunderstand the main aim or goal of the tradition itself.
Tucson,
Thanks for your answers on RS, i speculated as much on some, but I was wondering what the pull was for you yourself personally to RS?
What was your goal? Why did you chose and stick with RS for so long?
What i find quite amazing is one hears for example that many disillusioned ex-satsangis get that way after a long time, like 30 years, instead of say 2 or 5 years.
Its quite bizarre.

Any of you ever really ask yourself the question what its all about, the whole entire big bang shoot shenanigan.
Its really very simple when you strip it all away, all the rationalization and almighty hullabaloo contemplation.
‘He is loving himself through us’
that is ‘He, or ‘Who’, or ‘What’
Its all a big show of love from Alpha to Omega, nothing but love, nothing ‘else’ whatsoever, just Love, loving itself, through itself, all so beautifully immaculately, immeasurably simple. Only Love loving Itself.

George, I understand your puzzlement. One person’s experience is tough to explain to someone else. Heck, mostly we don’t even understand ourselves (given how the brain works, largely below the level of conscious awareness).
The key to your questions is, I think, that people remain in a religious or spiritual organization for many reasons, many or most of which don’t have anything to do with the theology or belief system of the organization.
People enjoy feeling part of a group. Associating with like-minded folks. Attending meetings. Drinking coffee afterwards and chatting about this and that. Feeling a warm and fuzzy sense of community.
Staying or not staying with an organization isn’t solely a matter of believing or not believing. There’s a lot more to it — all the relationships that have been built up with people inside the group have to be considered, for example.
So when you say “its quite bizarre,” I don’t really see it that way. People can live in a town for 30 years, and then decide to move. People can own a house for 30 years, and then decide to get a condo. People can be married for 30 years, and then decide to get a divorce. People can stick with a job for 30 years, and then decide to enter a new career.
Thus what is bizarre about changing one’s religious affiliation after 30 years? People change in so many other ways; why not in this way also?

The ‘other’ being, is the absence of ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘I’. The epitome of selflessness or absorption in Samadhi, Oneness, the ‘Other’ Being, same strokes for different folks.
It is becoming the ‘Other’ being that is in fact the secret to becoming ‘You’.

It really all depends what you seek out of the association, if its to feel part of an organization, a club, an association, or of feeling important, being looked up to, warm and fuzzy cocoon, and all those ‘nice’ little associations we have when joining the ‘movement’, ‘cult’, ‘organization’, ‘affiliation’, ‘club’, whatever, then thats about all you ever going to get out of it, and when that wears off, what you have left is yourself, you got to then stare yourself hard in the mirror and ask yourself the million dollar question, what on earth did I join that following for to begin with, maybe it was all for the emphatic wrong reasons.
But George asks, there must have been ‘something’ sincere deep down in your quest, that led you in that direction, so what exactly was ‘It’.
It was you, looking for ‘You’, and you still looking, except now you starting to ask some pertinent question about who the hell ‘I’ am?
Still don’t know?, Join the club.
Except some ‘clubs’ they pose some ‘apparent answers’.
Now your intellect gets into overdrive, you start checking it all out again from every corner of every angle through every tenet of every facet of every philosophy, from Siddhartha Buddha, through Plotinus, through them all, and back to ‘You’.
When all that intellect gets to point zero, like Krishnamurti was so fond of taking his disciple-less students to before leaving them high and dry in no mans land, then the little penny’s going to start to drop, plinkity plonk.
And Oh what a mighty reawakening we gonna be having then, just like Siddhartha Buddha under the Gobi tree. Klunk!!!
And guess who’s gonna be waiting otherside of the rainbow, arms folded and smiling like a Cheshire cat, guess Who.

Brian,
maybe, but then those ppl who stay part of such orgnaisations without necessarily subscribing to their tenets are either:
– being irrational, or
– are treading water and are not likely to progress. if such profound experiences are there to be had, it makes sense that to have any chance of experiencing them requires a profound change of thinking or perception.
Which brings me back to my initial query as to whether a more skeptical mind is implcitly incapable of reaping the benefits or achieving the goal of RS; and hence will lose interest over time by not having such an experience.
I mean RS may well all be dogma and illusion, i dont know, but then why join up in the first place since it seems implicit that such a person would not be equipped to reach the exhaulted spiritual heights that would seem to be the goal?
I thought there was an application process of sorts in RS before the satguru will initiate a satsangi. presumably the point of this is to try and weed out the wheat from the chaff at an early stage?

We all got the minds we have, some skeptical, others loving, others appreciative, others rational and calculating, its all part of your ‘package deal’ what you ‘arrived’ with this time round.
Neither is good nor bad, just ‘are’ what we are. Its part of the antashkaran, the ‘impressions’, remnants of actions, reactions, and likes and dislikes, through myriad of experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant, attached to our ‘personality’, left like sediment covering the pure unsullied conscious mind, and in turn the jivatma or soul, the essential reality of ‘who’ we are.
So like slaves we get dictated to by the reactionary preconditioned ‘habits’ we have formed through our association with those sensations we like or are attracted to and away from those we dislike or are repulsed by. This forms our so called traits our ‘habits’, our personality why some like this and others like that, why some can see this in something and others see something else. Subjective reasoning, attached to I, or ‘me’ or ‘my’.
All along, behind the scenes, Love is still throbbing away, loving itself, in spite of all the surface activity, and each little bubble, each little spark is still in tune with the throb, though a faint memory of what it once was, the throb remains constant, pulling, tugging, against the stream and current of the outer sensation, the likes and dislikes, the cravings and desires.
When the bubble gets close enough to the murmur of the ‘stream’ the throb gets louder, the awakening starts tugging harder, yet the sediment holds fast, stuck like glue, like incessant clinging, wanting, likes and dislikes, to that which it has accustomed itself with over all its associative experience.
The conditioning when gets close enough to the power of the stream, it get washed clean, over time, maybe now, maybe soon, maybe later, but soon as the bubble gets absorbed in the stream, no possible other option, bubble gonna burst, and water gonna flow, just like it been designed to do from inception, river gonna flow all the way back to the ocean.

George wrote: “Which brings me back to my initial query as to whether a more skeptical mind is implcitly incapable of reaping the benefits or achieving the goal of RS; and hence will lose interest over time by not having such an experience.”
–The master will say to accept the hypothesis and do the work in the inner laboratory of meditation to verify it. So, one could be unsure and still follow the vows, do the meditation which theoretically will be effective along with the master’s grace, karmas, etc. Any honest satsangi will admit they don’t know if sant mat is true or not. If they knew it, they wouldn’t need it.
I suppose for some a moment comes when they decide sant mat isn’t working or they’re tired of it. Or, they find out about some dirt on the master, the organization, etc. Or, they just quit and go their merry way for no particular reason at all.
I know a satsangi with good intelligence who has been meditating daily for 38 years and admits to never having a mystical experience. All there is for him is darkness, silence and dry repetition. Still he keeps at it because he likes the routine and the discipline and the structure it gives to his life. Others would say “I’ve been at this for nearly four decades and it isn’t working. I’m the same slob I always was. I’m done with this and I’m moving on.”
It’s individual.

very interesting allround, thank you.

tAo
We dont care about your stupid cultish and boring videos.
Give us a break with the “there is no “someone” existing who is “into all this””. If there isnt anyone You watch them and stop trying to make every one to come in agreement with You. Asshole

George posted the following comments:
“one has to let go of the intellect to pierce the veil and connect with a different state to achieve some sort of mystical experience or gnosis.”
— But that which you describe is not the actual practice of shabda yoga. First, the intellect can not and need not be let go of. Shabda yoga meditation is simply listening to an ‘inner’ sound current and seeing an ‘inner’ light. And also, there is no “connect with a different state”. The prescribed meditation is to put attention upon the inner sound current (the ‘shabda’ or ‘nam’), and that is itself the goal. From then on, the shabda then supposedly draws the consciousness of the practitioner into higher and higher subtle planes, and supposedly, ultimately beyond the realm of the mind into a transcendent purely spiritual realm. The “mystical experience” that is achieved, is simply the action of drawing of the individual’s consciousness (the “surat” or “soul” in RS parlance) beyond the body and material plane, and up into inner higher subtle planes, supposedly eventually reaching the imperisible spiritual realm.
“these mechanical tenets […] them being tools to try and open up the mind and release it from the supposed clutter of the intellect.”
— No… again, the practice of shabda yoga meditation is not done to “open up the mind and release it from the supposed clutter of the intellect”. It is done specifically to bring the attention of the practioner to directly perceiving the shabda/nam or the inner sound current (which supposedly emanates from the highest spiritual plane), which then supposedly has to power to automatically draw the practioner’s consciousness upwards into higher more subtle inner planes.
“those that have had a mystical experience continue to follow RS, while those that do not become dissilusioned.”
— I don’t agree. It is actually more the opposite. Most of those who do continue to follow RS, have by and large achieved little or no mystical experiences; and many of those who have left RS (or “disillusioned” as you say), have indeed had unique and profound mystical experiences (but not derived from or related to the practice of RS meditation), but which the RS meditation has not brought about and not proven effective in achieving such experiences. So I would not say that those who stay with RS are the ones who have achieved “mystical experiences”. They only stay because they hope and believe in the promise of someday achieving those experiences, not because they have had any experiences.
These are all things that are much more obvious to those of us who are very knowledgeable and experienced in Santmat, and not to people like yourself who basically have little understanding and knowledge and no experience in Santmat. There is no criticism in this. It is simply a matter of having correct understanding of what is the actual practice and the goal of Santmat, of the shabda yoga meditation.
“those that enter RS with a western questioning mind geared more towards rationalism, would seem inherently predisposed away from entering into this different state”
— That may be true to some extent, but the eastern mind can be very inquiring as well. But neither eastern nor western is more predisposed. Achieving results in shabda yoga is much more simplyt a matter of focusing upon the inner sound current, and having experience of traversing the inner subtle planes as outlined in the Santmat cosmology.
“But this seems to be […] that one has to risk one’s mind as it were, to let it go totally, and i’m not sure if the dissillusioned ex-satsangis wherever truly able to do this.”
— I beg to differ with that notion as well. It is the “dissillusioned ex-satsangis” who are really the ones who have “let it go” far more than the RS believers who hold on to Santmat dogma and beliefs. The believers have not “let go” at all. They are rigidly holding onto the master/savior figure, the body of dogma, and the hope that the practice (shabda meditation) will deliver them to the goal.
[George’s comments to Brian]:
“the goal of RS is to unite with the sound, othewise why do it?”
— The goal is not so much as to “unite” with the sound, but rather to simply hear and meditate UPON the sound current (and light)… so that the sound & light current (shabda/nam) will then draw the consciousness (or ‘soul’) up into higher more subtle realms and beyond… eventually to the spiritual realm. So the practice is not to “unite”, but rather to focus and maintain attention upon the sound. [the practice also includes internal repetition of a mantra, and visualization of the form of the guru]
“mechanical tenets for achieving this, i.e. vegetarianism, purity, etc are surely all just tools forming part of a method that have been found through practical experience by the saints/satgurus through the ages to supposedly be the best method for achieving such a connection or unity.”
— Yes that is generally true of many poaths, but in Santmat those things (vegetarianism, purity, etc) are simply peripheral aids intended to assist in a more effective meditation… and they are not the primary practice.
“the plain intended meaning, which is […] some sort of unity or connection with a creative force or sound where one experiences this gnosis or direct intutive insight into the nature of reality.”
— That is somewhat correct, but not specifically. Yes, the “intended meaning” or purpose is to ‘connect’ with the shabda/sound-current, but that is not really stated as being to have “direct intutive insight into the nature of reality”. The stated purpose of ‘connecting’ and meditating upon the sound current is all about facilitating the so-called “soul” to be drawn up through and beyond the material, subtle, and mental planes… and into the (supposed) supreme transcendatal spiritual realm. The practice and the goal of Santmat is not generally stated as being for any so-called “direct intutive insight into the nature of reality”. That is much more the orientation of traditions such as Ch’an/Zen, and advaita vedanta, jnana yoga, siddha yoga, and dzogchen.
“Such a feeling must surely be overwhelming if experienced […] Why would someone get off the RS path having had such a profound experience.”
— Again, the reason that people remain on the RS path is not because they have had, but because they have NOT had “such a profound experience”. They remain because they are seeking that, and because they believe that Santmat will eventually give them that. It is far more likely that those folks who HAVE had “profound experiences” realize that such experiences are not at all dependent upon, or limited to Santmat. In fact, some of the practices and beliefs of Santmat may be impediments to realizing such mystical experiences.
But ultimately, all such suppoed “mystical” experiences are phenomenal, transitory, and they do not equate with actual realization/recognition or as you say “direct intutive insight into the nature of reality”.
“the love for their guru and his teachings would be massive.”
— The so-called “love” for the guru is simply an aspect of cult mentality. It is not actual real love, as the disciples never have any closeness or proximity, or any actual personal contact or interaction with the guru… the guru who basically remains aloof and inaccessible to the masses of followers.
“Perhaps I have misunderstood your reasons for leaving Sant Mat.”
— Yes, I believe that is definitley the case. But that is not your fault. To really understand why someone would leave, requires that you know quite alot about the RS path, its dogma, its practice, its guru worship, its authoritarianism, its organization and sangat, and various sorts of other aspects that a non-intitiate would not be privy to, or familiar with, or have had any direct experience of.
I hope this helps you to get a better picture as to the actual practice and intended goal of Santmat.
“i dont assume to know a single thing about ultimate reality, i find such a concept in itself quite overwhelming and am not even sure such a state or means of perception exists.”
— Thats good observation and thinking George. I agree with you.
“My limited understanding […] is that RS is one of many mystic traditions that supposedly allows one to enter into some sort of raised consciousness in which one is able to unite with something bigger, with the one or ultimate reality or whatever”
— Yes, that’s more or less the supposition of Santmat.
“I understand it is a feeling of a kindling like being in love, like returning home to the source and so on and so forth.”
— No… thats not really quite how it is, or how it turns out.
“I have never experienced this”
— But that is irrelevant. You HAVE experienced many other things that are no less important and meaningful. There is nothing special that you do not have. Life itself is whats its all about, not some particular special meditation experience or extraordianry altered state. There is nothing lacking for you to gain, in that respect.
“what are ppl after? What were you after? I mean why did you not just go the zen route or yoga if it was mere meditation and clean living you were after?”
— Its all simply a matter of the vagaries of the search. Each person’s process and journey is unique.
“I don’t assume that any form of religion – mystical, mainstream or otherwise – provides any type of higher knowledge, but am interested in trying to find out.”
— Thats a resonable question. But the best path (imo) is to be content with, and proceed on YOUR OWN unique path, as it is revealed and lived from moment to moment.
“It sounds like my understanding of RS is incorrect and that many ppl entered RS for other reasons, which means i obviously totally misunderstand the main aim or goal of the tradition itself.”
— Yes, that’s much what I was trying to tell you awile back. But you reacted in a negative way. Yet I and others have been trying to better explain Santmat to you. Its not your fault. It takes awhile to corrrectly understand what Santmat is all about.

Ander,
I don’t know what you are talking about, or what you are referring to when you say “your stupid cultish and boring videos”.
I have not posted any such “cultish” videos.
You apparently have some sort of chip on your shoulder about something, but whatever it is, its not my negativity or my problem.
Maybe you should come more up to date regarding this present discussion, and shift into a more positive direction.

Jyotisha,
I am sure you mean well, but your preaching of spiritual platitudes and rhetoric like…
“Everything relative to true spiritual or mystical experience is a by product of love, prem, bhakti”
…and so on and so forth, is not particularly helpful here.
You said: “Without the jiva or soul attaching to a higher more subtle and more powerful psychic energetic force and piercing the veil of the encrusted layers of karmic patterns that shroud and blanket the consciousness from penetrating into a state of rapture or love one can simply forget any talk or any idea of mystical or spiritual experience.”
— This is all purely doctrine and dogma. Are you not aware of that? And why do you assume that you have the final word on “mystical or spiritual experience”? You are just preaching more dogma of spiritual and yoga principles, and not engaging in discussing of any issues.
You said:
“Love is not something one can teach or get taught.”
“Capture it, or be captured by it, grasp it, lose yourself in it, become absorbed in it, lose your identity to become the other being, this is Love, and the beginning of mystical or spiritual transport or experience.”
— Well… that may sound nice, but those are all just words and beliefs. “Love” is just a word. Living life in the present moment is all that ever matters… whatever you may be feeling, and whatever may be happening.

tAo, nice work with your comment to George. Very clear and complete.
After reading it, I thought: “There’s not much more that could be said on this subject” (why people leave Sant Mat, and why people stay with Sant Mat).
But of course there is…more to say. You just said your saying well.

Yes, tAo does an excellent job of clarifying the issues raised. George, you can take tAo’s comments above to the bank.

Thanks for that little bit of appreciation Brian.
I recently decided to take your suggestion and advice, and get into a more positive approach to discussing the relevant issues here, instead of my usual same old critique and personal criticism of other posters. Like you, I was getting quite tired of all that anyway, because in the end it’s rather a downer. I haven’t changed my basic way of thinking, but I do plan to keep my comments on much more polite and constructive level, rather than focusing on targeting the faults of others. I am doing this primarily out of respect for you and to elicit a nicer vibe on your site.
There are much bigger issues on the horizon than wasting my time in inconsequential bickering over words and beliefs:
Like, we’ve just been robbed by the globalist bankers to the tune of more than 12 trillion dollars and the world economy is now literally on the brink; there are immense dangers to the entire population from out-of-contol fatal biological threats that are rapidly advancing (if not immediately, then surely in the coming weeks, months and years) and whether you like it or not; and there are dozens of other equally serious threats and problems that most people are (unfortunately) totally unaware and ignorant of.
My life is generally structured around the range of my priorities… and the time is now long overdue, in that I don’t have time to worry about relatively inconsequential things such as… nonsense posted by dogmatic RS believers etc etc.
I also believe that my future physical survival depends largely upon some very specific and important things:
A.) being very highly informed (which I already am); and,
B.) being as prepared and as self-reliant and self-sufficient in terms of the basic necessities of living as possible (which I have yet to achieve totally)… such as having an independent water source, sustainable non-gmo food growing and essential food storage, off-the-grid solar power and communications, sustainabkle transportation, etc… and also, informed and cooperative local like-minded community.
I feel that the time has now definitely arrived to do what it takes, or be swept away by the approaching storm.
And there will always be those who scoff and laugh at the warnings until its too late… too late for them that is. That’s just the way its always been. It is nature’s way of sifting the wheat from the chaff so to speak.
Now I certainly don’t mean to sound in any way religious here. I am talking about some very real and serious issues and threats that are happening right now, and that are also are fast advancing upon both the people of North America and Europe, as well as Asia and the rest of the world.
And I have already given excellent links to information where interested and concerned people can become better informed and educated as to all these various impending issues.
Here is, by far, the best place to start to become truly informed: http://www.infowars.com
In any case, I just wanted to say thanks, and I don’t wish to be perceived as ranting, so I will sign off for now.

Anyone heard anything about George A Boyd? He’s a former initiate of just about everything (including Darshan Singh).
http://www.mudrashram.com

The difference here is that some, like tAo, who reckons he is so ‘well informed’, is still so attached, so absorbed in his absolute fear ridden physical attachment, he has not, even in spite of all his profound so called intellectualized spiritual ‘wisdom’, begun to understand, nor acknowledge, in fact, what on earth he is actually doing here.
I doubt very much whether tucson or Brian quite know exactly either, else they would not be beating about the churchless bush on their rationalized drums about ‘their’ particular disillusionment or experience, they think it is about ‘being here now’ like Richard Alpert tried teaching them when they were still young hippies back in the ‘good ‘ol days’ about letting go to their current existentialist non denominational non prescribed experience.
What they have failed to do, and why they are the ‘disillusioned ex spiritual seekers’ they think they might not be, is see themselves within all the song and dance discrepancy.
They may have ‘intellectually’ grasped the ramifications and so called rationalized understandings of the ideals or tenets of the path of Sant Mat, (which could really be any spiritual path for that matter) but they have not even begun traversing it, not even by a whisker, their dogmatic attachment to their highly inflated preconceived notion of ‘who’ ‘they’ might be, and how important ‘they’ value that egotistical attachment to ‘themselves’ is really the entire crux of the failed ‘experiment’.
You see under such ‘self absorbed’ circumstances and conditions, no way in hell will the mind be ever able to ‘grasp’ any real or true or even slightly ‘elevated’ an understanding of anything beyond the limited scope of their so called ‘rational’ self centered minds eye.
So to George, you may like to take tAo’s rather one sided synopsis of how the spiritual experience in relation to RS teachings does work to ‘the bank’ as tucson so grandiosely suggested to you to do, but if you are in any way a sincere, (that is possibly a little more sincere than the three jolly disillusioned musketeers around this here cult following are), then you would do well to stretch your envelope of imagination and consideration just a little further than you have already.
‘Talk is cheap’, as the old saying goes, especially such frazzled fragmented non personalized talk across the internet stratosphere, you would be far better off meeting those who your mind is trying to assess face to face and making your deductions from there.
Just as one cannot glean any real insight into anything anybody said here, or now, or then, in any printed media or through hearsay here or hearsay there, the only ultimate reasonable form of contemplative deduction is by looking into every consideration on a personalized face to face experiential communicative association level, then, and I believe only then, is one in any way a little more capable of making a so called ‘rational’ reasonably ‘astute’ deduction, as much as ones preconditioned state of ‘unconditional rationalization’ allows, and take it from there.
The soul, that is all souls, are on a journey, some this a way and others that a way, we find ourselves here, right now treading this pool of water under these conditions based on our current ‘assumed’ attribute of understanding, but under the entire scope of the grand disillusionment, it is all a case of becoming, no individual is more or less attributable to that ‘becoming’, ultimately in the end analysis, as much as we kick and fuss about it this a way or that a way, it is hardly within our hand whatsoever, you may think that ‘you’ have all the answers, all the keys to the treasure chest within your hand, the irony or the anomaly of it all, is that you don’t, not a single one of us, have much to do about the any-thing or no-thing or every-thing we are becoming to be.

tAo
“These are all things that are much more obvious to those of us who are very knowledgeable and experienced in Santmat, and not to people like yourself who basically have little understanding and knowledge and no experience in Santmat. There is no criticism in this.”
— I don’t want to get into another round with you, but I will just say the following. No criticism intended.
Firstly i have acknowledged my limitations on RS, not to be talked down to, but to be honest as to the position I am coming from and to try and work through all the contrasting viewpoints presented on this site logically. I have a logical mind which I believe is capable of comprehending any concept put forward on this forum.
The problem is there appears to be many on here with a great deal of knowledge on RS, not just you, and yet these many often have diametreically opposed viewpoints to yours. As such I will weigh up for myself what I consider to be correct or not.
While your comments are taken in, they will be given equal weighting as the others. I am sure you will be the first to admit that you are not a fan of RS. This does not make your viewpoint of RS either more right or wrong than someone like joshilan above, just different.
I would hazard a guess that your outlook is more similar to mine, in being more rational and skeptic; however I want to hear the views of someone like joshilan and zenjen precisely because they are so different.
The very tone of these other posts often speak speaks volumes about this difference. And to be quite honest, I believe there is something, possibly quite profound in their writing, which is intuitive, which gets to the guts of the matter.
Now I understand that all this metaphoric poetry might well be a mechanism inculcated in RS folk, which is designed to draw ppl into it. But I am also a pretty shrewd guy and in my opinion there remains something quite beautiful, sincere and even profound about it. They are sometimes able to create imagery which surpasses words and in fact I wonder how much of this was a pull to RS for others?
In short, I thank you for your input, but I will not be browbeaten into accepting your account as authorative. There is no criticism in this.

joshilan
i appreciate all your views and there is no ways i will be swayed one way or the other, i like to listen to the various arguements and assessing them first.
seems there are alot of preconceived opinions in general and not so much flexibility in thought. when it comes to topics like spirituality, this area is even more unclear.
to his credit, the one thing tAo is able to do, is set out the various tenets clearly and to sharpen up on my perhaps slightly unclear thinking, which is fine, but i dont want to get into semantic discussions so much as understanding why ppl have chosen to remain or skip out on this RS, and why it seems to invoke such passions.

George,
You said you were interested in as to why in fact people do appear to buy into RS ‘hook, line and sinker’. This really struck home and it gave me a lot to ponder on.
When I first heard about Sant Mat even though I was very young and asked a lot of questions my innermost gut feeling was that this path was something I recognized on a very deep level.
It was all very new and exciting. The 60s/70s seemed to be the beginning of a new era of awakening and hearing about the path was so new and wondrous, whereas nowadays we have so much access to information and it seems to be more the age of skepticism.
I spent a lot of time reading all the Sant Mat books and listening to the audiotapes of Maharaj Charan Singh answering questions. I fell in love with this kind and loving person who answered each question so patiently and I could never find fault with him.
Now that I am more questioning I feel maybe this is also part of the path. An aware mind is a questioning mind.
It’s a kind of discarding of old concepts and beliefs and more like a renewal than an ending. You know how artists have to learn all the skills, disciplines and techniques of their craft and then there comes a time when they have to let go and unlearn so that a more individual kind of naturalness can emerge.
I still believe in a soul and think of Sant Mat as a science of the soul and not a science of the mind, but then learning how to deal with the mind is also ongoing.
I recently sent my son a quote from Master Sawan Singh about the inner form of the Master who guides the initiate and he (my son) said: Cool, I like the description of it…. So remember that he’s looking over your shoulder….this astral inner master dude….and thinking that Jen is just going through a phase….
I agree, just another phase … its still a wondrous path.

Ashy = Joshilan. So desperate.

“You old questioning devil you………..”
—Please, I’m an old pickup driven, questioning devil……..
—With heavy emphases on “devil”……

joshilan,
You stated,
“The soul, that is all souls, are on a journey, some this a way and others that a way, we find ourselves here, right now treading this pool of water under these conditions based on our current ‘assumed’ attribute of understanding, but under the entire scope of the grand disillusionment, it is all a case of becoming, no individual is more or less attributable to that ‘becoming’, ultimately in the end analysis, as much as we kick and fuss about it this a way or that a way, it is hardly within our hand whatsoever, you may think that ‘you’ have all the answers, all the keys to the treasure chest within your hand, the irony or the anomaly of it all, is that you don’t, not a single one of us, have much to do about the any-thing or no-thing or every-thing we are becoming to be.”
—My Soul, just now, jouneyed down your longest sentence.
—So what is all this “grand” disillusionment stuff?
—Why do you think that ‘they’ have all the answers, all the keys to the treasure chest within their hand?
—So, whats the big deal with: you don’t, not a single one of us, have much to do about the any-thing or no-thing or every-thing we are becoming to be?
Jyotisha,
You stated,
“The ‘other’ being, is the absence of ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘I’. The epitome of selflessness or absorption in Samadhi, Oneness, the ‘Other’ Being, same strokes for different folks. It is becoming the ‘Other’ being that is in fact the secret to becoming ‘You’.”
—So, why cann’t the “other” you become the other being, in the absense of me, my and I? Remember, different strokes for differnet folks. No need for this to be a secret.

Hello everyone,
You might recognize me from the comments section on one of the other posts. I said I would stick to lurking but I have decided against that. I’m liking the positive vibe here and feel that I have something to share. So from now on, if I have something to contribute I won’t hold myself back. What’s the point in that right?
Anyways, the discussion on why people join RS has led me to share a little bit of my experiences/views on this subject. A lot of what has been said about it can apply to anyone but I think is mostly about people who are coming into RS from another reigion or people who are discovering RS for the first time.
I say this because for me, there was no choice really. And I feel it is the same way for many people like me. My family converted to RS and got initiated way before I was born. It is the same for many of the people my age in the RS community in my home town. From birth, I was raised to believe the RS tenets and dogma. My parents encouraged me to ‘pray’ to Gurinder every night before I went to bed. The pressure to get initiated when I reach the minimum age for initiation is extreme (although I will not get initiated into a path I don’t believe in). I, and other like me, are raised to believe that the RS teachings are truth and that Gurinder is God. When we grow up, there is a lot of family pressure to get initiated and become a formal member of the path. I’m glad I developed a questioning mind in my teens and actively searched for websites such as this.
Other people seem to be different. Sure, Gurinder encourages people to read the criticisms before committing to the path but really, family pressure is pretty great and it seems to me that some people think that because someone has been raised on RS there is really no need to read the criticisms. To illustrate, I recall an incident where some friend of the family decided to get initiated. She’s also been raised on RS. I asked my dad if he thought she’d read the criticisms before deciding. What he said was that she’s been raised on RS so she has no need to read those criticisms. Reading criticisms and having an open mind about Sant Mat is apparently for seekers who are new to the path. At least that is what he thinks. Gurinder does say people should not force their children to follow RS just because they themselves do. But that just does not happen. Everywhere around me, children of RS parents in my local RS community end up getting initiated. Not because they feel some sort of pull or are looking for something in particular but because of social pressure and the fact that they are raised to believe that the teachings are the truth.
I personally feel that this is the worst way to go into the path because you’re never encouraged to question the teachings for yourself. Of course, you may do but this is not socially encouraged. My mother still asks me if I pray to Gurinder. I don’t, ofcourse but I don’t tell her that because of consequences I want to avoid. Uninitiated kids of RS parents often get up to speak in the Q&A sessions and ask Gurinder to make sure they do well in studies, take care of them, etc. I don’t like this. So why do people get initiated into RS? For some, this is all they have ever known. But ofcourse, that can be said for all religions really.
But well, this is my two cents on the matter from the perspective of someone raised on the RS religion. I hope it has proved useful.

George,
Joshilan, aka Ashy, is mostly robotically parroting what he has read. His phrasing and the structure of his comments are like reading an RS book imbued with the emotion and acceptance of a true believer. tAo also understands the teachings very well, but is more objective in his approach since he is not ‘invested’ in RS as his personal path to salvation. Hence, from him or me you will not hear all the flowery metaphor and imagery which can be appealing, enchanting, seductive and sound authoritative but is still no more than that..beguiling flowery imagery and metaphor from one who only imagines what IT might be like.

Rose, thanks for sharing your experience. I suspect you are speaking of an Indian community of initiates, where family pressures are indeed usually considerably stronger than among “Westerners.” That said, when I was a teenager I felt family pressures in a different sense — to work in a family business when I got out of college — and it was tough to go against the tide.
However, like you I concluded that I needed to be true to myself. Plus, if my heart hadn’t been into that profession, I wouldn’t have been very good at it. So the decision worked out well all around, in retrospect. It just was a emotional moment when I told my mother, “I don’t want to be a business major.”
I can imagine that saying, “I don’t want to be initiated” would be even more difficult, given that it is the state of someone’s soul that supposedly is in question, not what sort of job they end up working at.

George, explaining the passions RSSB/Sant Mat arouses in people would require quite a few words — which I don’t have time to write at the moment. Maybe that will become a post subject.
Brief answer: it’s sort of like the passion one has for a coffee maker, versus an expensive car. If the coffee maker doesn’t work as promised, you just chuck it in the trash can and say “oh, well, not a good choice.”
But if you’ve made a big commitment to a supposedly high performance car, and it turns out not to work like the sales pitch said it would, the negative passion is about as great as the positive passion would have been if you’d been able to cruise around happily, looking good, with the top down, engine purring smoothly.
There’s more to the issue than this, of course. Just wanted to offer some sort of reply to your comment.

Rose,
Thanks for your comment.
One interesting statement,
“From birth, I was raised to believe the RS tenets and dogma. My parents encouraged me to ‘pray’ to Gurinder every night before I went to bed.”
—Interesting, that your parents encouraged you to pray. Nothing wrong with prayer, imo.
—However, I’m curious, as to why your parents didn’t encourage you to engage in some simple meditation exercise. Say for 15 minutes, at a time.
—I have no background in SantMat teachings, other than through the Internet.
So, absolutely no expertise from my end.
—With that said, I think, I remember reading something, regarding children, given some simple intructions in mediation.
None of the 5 mantra names, but maybe something in “sound only” meditation.
—Never read anything, regarding “prayer” in the SantMat teachings, is my point.
—Rose, did you ever mediate, as a child?
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

Brian,
You suspect right. My local RS community is indeed an Indian community. There is probably only one foreigner I can think of there.
And yeah the reactions I will get for not wanting to get initiated will be very disapproving, as is the case in general with ex-satsangis. The difference being, that for me I will get those negative community reactions without even being initiated! But well, I don’t care what they think.
Roger,
No there’s definitely nothing wrong with prayer. But the problem is that I was not encouraged to address ‘God’ in general in my prayers. I was taught to address Gurinder, the Present Master. I may have believed he was God In Human Form then but I now know that he’s just an ordinary human being. There’s nothing Godly about him. So, that means I was encouraged to pray to another human being, who is not telepathic, so couldn’t hear my prayers not grant them. That’s why I take issue with the whole praying to him aspect. It’s because he is clearly not able to listen.
Prayer is not explicitly in the teachings, no but it’s one of those implicit social things. Satangi parents believe that he is God in Human Form so encourage kids to pray to him, to believe that he watches over people, etc. It isn’t just the parents too. I went to Children’s Satsang before I was old enough to attend regular Satsang. It’s a bit like Sunday School. We were given a generic prayer to recite, and that was unrelated to Gurinder. But during the Children’s Satgangs the GIHF is encouraged by those who teach the kids, at least in my opinion. So it’s a social thing and generally how RS kids are raised.
About meditation, I once expressed interest in trying to do so but I was told that I should never attempt to meditate before I reach the minimum age for initiation. Something about my young mind not being ready and not having an internal guide.
Hope that answers your questions.

Joshilan wrote:
“strange how those that ditch the teachings of the saints have even half the audacity to proclaim they know any of them.”
–Why not. Can’t someone who was once a muslim and converted to christianity know anything about isalm?
“They don’t, their assumed understanding is actually a lack of understanding almost to the extent of a debauchery of such.”
–examples please
“… this conglomeration of negation driven, non spiritually inclined, purely intellectual cohorts of high strung individuals will only give you their very limited and self indoctrinated, self centered and self righteous version.”
–please, examples.
“And what is even more evident is that they come across as inverted cowards, because they have in fact set up this forum specifically, (even though it may be couched in other more illustrious type of generalized terms), as a venue to air their inherent frustrations about their specific lack of spiritual experience and casting their anxious array of negation inspired rhetoric as the gospel truth.”
–examples?
“Whereas they are too cowardly to address their lack of vision, love, clarity or understanding to the source of their frustration, they pound away as disillusioned ex initiates of a particular system on this site as some kind of psychological pick me up cooperative support group amongst themselves as a means to compounding and collating their negation, yet they are too scared or too cowardly to address their fallible psychological complexity to the very source of their negation and frustration.”
–It is you who is frustrated. What pisses you off is that no matter how you phrase it, you have failed to convince anyone on this forum of anything and this is because what you believe can’t be proven. Admit it. You have simply chosen to believe. That’s fine, but don’t expect that others will see it your way. If you continue to do so your frustration will continue to mount.

George,
I will simply say this to you:
My last comment to you was in no way shape or form intended to “talk down” to you, nor have you be “browbeaten into accepting” anything. I was simply trying to clarify and explain the RS meditation system, to alleviate any confusion that you might have. You take that being “talking down” and “browbeating” you. Fyi, that is not at all the attitude I have towards you. You seem to want to continue to remain negative and closed-minded towards me, so I will refrain from any further attempts at sharing information and explanations reagding Santmat with you. I was simply trying to help you and communicate with you in a positive sense.
I was also not trying to sound “authorative” as you claim. I was simply trying to give you a better understanding of the actual workings and basic premise of the Santmat/RS meditation method. In as much as I have been extremely well acquainted with much experience in the Santmat meditation system for more than 30 years, I do happen to know what I am talking about.
However, you seem to assume that the info and details about Santmat that I explained to you – about RS meditation – is merely my one isolated opinion, but that is not the case.
You said: “The problem is there appears to be many on here with a great deal of knowledge on RS, not just you, and yet these many often have diametreically opposed viewpoints to yours.”
It appears that you do not see that what I explained to you is basic and factual information, and it is precisely the method of the RS meditation system. There are not differing opinions. This can and will be verified by other knowledgable long-time initiates.
Yet it appears that you (probably because you are just not familar with the inner workings of Santmat), believe that some of these other more fanatical dogmatic believers here have other opinions that are “opposed” to mine, and that their opinions are equally as authoritative. That also is generally not the case.
So fyi, there is only one standard basic method of meditation in Santmat/RS, and that is exactly what I have described for you. The difference between myself, Brian and Tucson etc, and these other fanatical believers is not about the meditation method, but rather about all of the baggage of theological dogma and belief and guru-cultism that they attach to the meditation method.
In any case, I again want to reiterate that my intent was and is not to “talk down” to you or to “browbeat” you. I want to make that very clear. My intent was and is positive and good-hearted, and I meant no criticism or offense to you.
But since you have assumed otherwise and you seem to still have a rather closed-minded attitude and bias towards anything that I might share, I will therfore simply not be offering you any more input or information on the subject. I will just leave it to others to sort that all out for you.
Since you are not willing to accept that what I have to share here is both accurate and is put forth with a sincere and positive intention, I do not wish to engage in further debate with you. I am simply not going put myself in a position of being compared to mentally disturbed religious fanatics such as ashy/joshilan.
Before I close, I want to make sure that you understand that I respect your right to your point of view, and that I have no ill feelings towards you. And if you choose not to be receptive and accept my views and insights, and my considerable knowledge and experience in Santmat, than that is your business. And if you feel that these neophyte RS religious fanatics have some sort of special unique and subtle wisdom (that Brian and Tucson and I do not), then so be it… and that will be for you to sort out.
Best of luck to you George… and thank you for responding and expressing your thoughts and views.
Also, hopefully, perhaps someday you will go take a look at the papers on Categorical Analysis that I referred you to. I think that would expand your perspective relative to all of these RS doctrine and mysticism issues.

Joshilan aka Ashy is now back again… and is posting loads of personal derision and endless meaningless and indecipherable mumbo-jumbo…. all over again.
So, for as long as this type of mentally disturbed troll continues to to be allowed to post nonsense personal ridicule and general insults, and wandering meaningless babble in this forum (and still supported and defended by George)… I am out of here.
To show my point, the following are the most recent examples of Ashy aka Joshilan’s fanatical rantings, twisted mumbo-jumbo, and personal derogatory ridicule, all assembled here in plain view:
“tAo, who reckons he is so ‘well informed’, is still so attached, so absorbed in his absolute fear ridden physical attachment, he has not, even in spite of all his profound so called intellectualized spiritual ‘wisdom’…..” — What?????
“doubt very much whether tucson or Brian quite know exactly either, else they would not be beating about the churchless bush on their rationalized drums about ‘their’ particular disillusionment…..” — ?????
“the ideals or tenets of the path of Sant Mat […] they have not even begun traversing it, not even by a whisker, their dogmatic attachment to their highly inflated preconceived notion of ‘who’ ‘they’ might be…..” — ?????
“no way in hell will […] the limited scope of their so called ‘rational’ self centered minds eye…..” — ?????
“you may like to take tAo’s rather one sided synopsis of how the spiritual experience in relation to RS teachings…..” — ?????
“…..especially such frazzled fragmented non personalized talk…..” ?????
“one cannot glean any real insight into anything anybody said here, or now, or then, in any printed media or through hearsay here or hearsay there, the only ultimate reasonable form of contemplative deduction is by looking into every consideration on a personalized face to face experiential communicative association level, then, and I believe only then, is one in any way a little more capable of making a so called ‘rational’ reasonably ‘astute’ deduction, as much as ones preconditioned state of ‘unconditional rationalization’ allows, and take it from there.” — ?????
“under these conditions based on our current ‘assumed’ attribute of understanding, but under the entire scope of the grand disillusionment, it is all a case of becoming, no individual is more or less attributable to that ‘becoming’, ultimately in the end analysis, as much as we kick and fuss about it this a way or that a way, it is hardly within our hand whatsoever, you may think that ‘you’ have all the answers, all the keys to the treasure chest within your hand, the irony or the anomaly of it all, is that you don’t, not a single one of us, have much to do about the any-thing or no-thing or every-thing we are becoming to be.” — ?????
“strange how those that ditch the teachings of the saints have even half the audacity to proclaim they know any of them.” — ?????
“their assumed understanding is actually a lack of understanding almost to the extent of a debauchery” — ?????
“this conglomeration of negation driven, non spiritually inclined, purely intellectual cohorts of high strung individuals will only give you their very limited and self indoctrinated, self centered and self righteous version.” — ?????
they come across as inverted cowards, because they have in fact set up this forum specifically […] as a venue to air their inherent frustrations about their specific lack of spiritual experience and casting their anxious array of negation inspired rhetoric as the gospel truth.” — ?????
“they are too cowardly to address their lack of vision, love, clarity or understanding to the source of their frustration, they pound away as disillusioned ex initiates of a particular system on this site as some kind of psychological pick me up cooperative support group amongst themselves as a means to compounding and collating their negation, yet they are too scared or too cowardly to address their fallible psychological complexity to the very source of their negation and frustration.” — ?????
[To Tucson]: “I am here purely to challenge the likes of you who supposedly think you know, or have experienced enough about life or spirituality to go and caste a whole lot of inaccurate dispersions about it.” — ?????
“contrary to so many of your assumed allegations about me or the path you have conveniently ditched purely because you don’t have the stomach for the ask of it, is I don’t actually give two little hoots about what you may think or deduce about my application or approach to the truths of its teachings.” — ?????
“my feeble approach in getting you off your high horse of sanctimonious conceited arrogance has very little to do with what any soul is inclined to appreciate or accept as true.” — ?????
“This so called ‘conversion’ is by no means in my puny hands to contemplate or dictate, that is for a much higher and more noble of attribute and coercion to utilize its influence, and it won’t be pulled this way or that way through me here, or by you here either.” — ?????
“The entire debauchery from your perspective comes as a show of lack, you base almost your entire life philosophy on what you have gleaned and what you have learned both intellectually and from personal experience whilst treading the sant mat path amongst other information and ‘knowledge’ from other sources, and imbibing some of its teachings.” — ?????
“you were unable to convert them from philosophy or intellectual reason into experience shows only a lack on your part, if you are unable to recognize truth that is staring you in the face, then the blindness is purely yours.” — ?????
“here we have a very small collection of highly strung and highly skeptic, spiritually devoid intellectual adherents who proclaim with all their might that there is no such thing as a spiritual experience, and that the living teachers of a particular system of teaching or philosophy are just frauds.” — ?????
“the current master even goes as far as to challenging you to assume it, he even himself on many occasions has said from the very platform while giving discourse or answering questions, he has acceded ‘how do you know I am not just a fraud’, and so he throws out the very challenge you in your intellectual stupor cannot grasp, test the value of your limitation.” — ?????
— I really hope that Brian deletes all this sort of crap before its starts mounting up again, and turning this forum into a cesspool of fanatical bickering and ranting and abusive ridicule again. This is all I am going to say, because I am going to stay out of this mess until it is put to rest.
Adios for now.

tAo,
Who cares about your stupid videos. If, and I quote: there is no “someone” existing who is “into all this”, or to “admire”; then You watch it and You understand it, and let Us then Be. If there isnt a thing, dont try to make everyone be in accordance with you. Idiot and rude a******
Is that better Blog God Brian?

tAo and all, I’ve been deleting Ashy’s/Joshilan’s comments because he agreed to stop commenting if I left a few last comments up, then went back on his word. Plus, his rants belong on the I Hate Church of the Churchless blog, not here.
I was off doing other things (Tai Chi and exercising) and wasn’t able to get to Ashy’s/Joshilan’s latest rants until now.
He is indeed pathetic. I feel sorry for him in a way — most of us are living a life, and Ashy Heller seems to live only to insult people and post profane rants on this blog. The way I see it, he’s a marvelous advertisement for what happens to someone if he/she becomes a fundamentalist Sant Mat believer who isn’t willing or able to discuss philosophy or spirituality in an adult manner.
So it doesn’t hugely bother me when his comments stay up for a while. He undermines his own arguments by how poorly he makes his case.

tAo
I have been listening to Alex Jones on http://www.infowars.com and have also watched his DVDs.
I am in Australia and usually listen to his radio show about this time, it is now 11.30am on 30th April. I cannot access infowars.com at the moment. Any ideas? Have they gone off the air?
Thanks for any info.

Brian,
Hey no problem. I figured you’d get around to the matter whenever you could. And I much agree with you when you say:
“he [Ashy]’s a marvelous advertisement for what happens to someone if he/she becomes a fundamentalist Sant Mat believer who isn’t willing or able to discuss philosophy or spirituality in an adult manner.”
“He undermines his own arguments by how poorly he makes his case.”
That’s really true.
And like I said, I’ve really taken your suggestion and your wishes to heart, and have already begun to try and avoid using any sort of harsh personal criticisms or impolite language. If I can refrain from that sort of thing, then so can others. I’d like to present a nicer vibe in any future comments that I make. That’s why I took the initiative to change my style.

Zenjen,
Re: Infowars.com
Sometimes that happens, but very rarely. Alex gets a unbelievably huge amount of traffic to his sites. He regularly pays out tens of thousands of dollars for the servers and bandwidth.
I just checked Alex’s infowars.com site a few minutes ago and its fine. No problems. In fact, I am listening to Alex discussing the exploding Swine Flu epidemic with Dr Len Horowitz right now (about 11 pm California time). His radio show repeats every 4 hours on the net, so you can tune in any time, day or night.

tAo,
Thanks for the feedback. I did eventually manage to access the Infowars website this afternoon. It was interesting to hear that they were apparently being hacked and are hit constantly in an effort to shut them down.
I like to listen to the show through the internet and keep in touch with what’s happening over there especially with the swine flu epidemic so will listen later on to the repeats.
Thanks for the info.

tAo,
Your efforts were appreciated and I said as much, but there were paragraphs which came accross to me as being very arrogant, perhaps its just me.
I am more than happy to be corrected, but I will inevtiably also want to question your views to try and satisfy myself of their validity. I will challenge most things, however correct you hold them to be.
I don’t assume anything about your opinion, I simply am not prepared to accept it as gospel, there are others who disagree and i like to listen to them too. I guess i felt their views were getting browbeaten and supressed. I dont want ppl to conform to someone else views, I want to hear different views.
You talk about your information being ‘basic and factual’. I believe there are very few facts in existence, rather our complex minds are able to distort and apply spin to these facts, however honest we like to pretend we are. What you consider a basic or factual tenent of RS, others might not. My impression is that you do indeed have a good understanding of the actual philosophical and tenents, but probably miss out on the practical or deeper aspects, tho i might be wrong on this, i still like to prefer to hear the opinion of others.
Perhaps we just don’t really understand each other, and indeed for peace on this site, perhaps your suggestion of not responding to one another is then the best option.
To summarise, i do respect and take in your viewpoint, but i will extend exactly the same courtesy to the other posters that disagree with you or whom you apparently consider to be fundamentalists like ashy.

For the record, I did not see any of ashy’s personal comments on here, they all look pretty useful to me (but perhaps the offensive ones have been removed).
I suppose there’s no place for that sort of personal thing, but then that needs to cut both ways. I dont believe Ashy will simply go off in a vaccum, there is something that is provoking him.
Look you guys have to deal with it as you see fit. Whoever you want to ban is fine with me, its your site and you spend alot of time on it. Do whatever you want.

Rose,
Thanks for your reply.
Apparently, the “God in human form” issue is still alive and well, in certain SantMat families. Interesting, how this is part of a “sunday school” like environment. I wonder, how and where the school teachers get their teaching instructions?
You mentioned,
“About meditation, I once expressed interest in trying to do so but I was told that I should never attempt to meditate before I reach the minimum age for initiation. Something about my young mind not being ready and not having an internal guide.”
—This is interesting, with regards to the four life cycle process. That is, if I am in my 2nd life cycle, and have been initiated in my 1st life, then it seems kinda strange that I am waiting 24 years to receive my second initiation.
Reasoning: Because of my young mind and not having an internal guide.
—Surely, One that has their 1st santmat initiation, has their guide(guru) setup?
—Would be interesting to chat with someone in their supposed 2nd, 3rd, or 4th
cycle.
—Do these persons, mentally, know they are in such cycles or not?
Anyway, Rose, just some questions to ponder. I’m glad you are around to provide commentary. Keep it up.
Best wishes to you,
Roger

George, you wrote:
“I will inevtiably also want to question your views to try and satisfy myself of their validity.”
— You can verify my so-called “views” simply by reading the RS literature, where you will find that what I have related is exactly and no different than what the RSSB itself teaches.
“I will challenge most things, however correct you hold them to be.”
— It’s not a matter of what I “hold” things to be, or what I believe, or my “opinions”. It is simply a matter of what the RSSB itself teaches…. which is exactly what I have related. Any sane and sober RS initiate can also verify this.
“I don’t assume anything about your opinion, I simply am not prepared to accept it as gospel”
— I never offered anything to you as “gospel”. I simply related what the RS itself teaches in the initiation, and in ALL of its literature, and by ALL of its past and present leaders/gurus. You can verify that for yourself by reading the literature, or by going to an RS satsang meeting and asking RS initiates. They will no doubt tell you the exact same thing about the RS meditation procedure, as I have related.
“there are others who disagree and i like to listen to them too.”
— Is that so? Well then just who are those who disagree? and WHAT exactly do they disagree about? You need to be specific if you are going to make this assertion. For your information, the RS meditation is the same for all intitiates, and all initiates know what that is. So where, and in whom is this disagreement specifically?
“I guess i felt their views were getting browbeaten and supressed.”
— I have not “suppressed” anyone’s views… nor have I “browbeaten” anyone. The arguments here have been all about theologogical and fundamentalist judgements, guru/savior-cultism, and derisive ranting… and not about the facts of the RS meditation process and its related cosmology.
“I dont want ppl to conform to someone else views, I want to hear different views.”
— I am not stopping you from hearing “different views”. But you are assuming that the information which I have related to you about the RS meditation procedure is merely my personal “view” or “opinion”. That is not thew case. What I related is only what the RS itself teaches in its initiations, its satsangs, and in all of its literature. And that is not a matter of debate. You would already know that if you had read the RS literature. Not being inititated and not having read the literature, you are ill-equipped to make any such assumptions. You don’t have to believe me… just go read the RS literature and verify this all for yourself.
“You talk about your information being ‘basic and factual’.”
— Yes, I simply related the basic orientation and procedure of the RS meditation practice and method, as it is taught in the RS initiations and in all the RS literature. That is not MY own personal views and opinions, it is exactly what the RSSB itself teaches.
“I believe there are very few facts in existence, rather our complex minds are able to distort and apply spin to these facts, however honest we like to pretend we are.”
— That may be true to some extent in other matters, but that has nothing to do with my relating the fundamentals of the RS meditation exactly as it is taught by the RSSB in all of its literature. Just go read the literature if you don’t believe me. All I have done here is to tell you exactly what the RSSB itself teaches. You say that others have different views (about the structure and orientation of the RS meditation), but that is not true. All initiates know and practice the SAME exact meditation procedure, as it has been taught to them by the RSSB and its gurus/leaders. There are no such differing opinions in the RS sangat regarding the meditation procedure. Your assumption that this is a matter of different opinions, is quite mistaken and incorrect.
And it shows that you have some sort of unreasonable bias, when an outsider like yourself argues against the facts as related by initites like Brian, Tuscon, and myself… where each of us has 30 plus years of knowl;edge and experience in RS compared to your zero experience. Yet you choose to listen to the derisive rants of someone who is clearly fanatical and mentally disturbed.
“What you consider a basic or factual tenent of RS, others might not.”
— All that I have related is the same RS meditation, exactly as it is taught by the RSSB in all of the RS literature. Just go read the RS literature if you don’t believe me. I find your persistent yet unfounded doubting a bit annoying, especially when all I have done here is to tell you exactly what the RSSB itself teaches. You say that others have different opposing views about the RS “tenets”, but that is not true. All initiates are taught, know, and follow and practice the SAME exact meditation procedure and principles, as they have been taught by the RSSB. There are no such differing opinions regarding the meditation procedure and practice.
I believe the underlying problem here is that one, you are not an intitiate so you have no experience with RS or the RS meditation, and two, you have not read the RS literature (as far as I know).
You are looking at all this as if it is merely a matter of personal opinions. But this has nothing to do with my opinions or other peop[le’s opinions. It is simply about what the RS itself teaches – at the time of formal initiation, and in all of its literature. And it is also exactly what I related to you previously. If you doubt this, then just go read the official RS literature.
“My impression is that you do indeed have a good understanding of the actual philosophical and tenents, but probably miss out on the practical or deeper aspects {…] i still like to prefer to hear the opinion of others.
— You are still approaching this as if there is something “deeper” that I am missing and do not understand…. which is pretty absurd coming from someone such as yourself who knows little or nothing about RS, and has not had 30 plus years of study and sadhana (meditation practice) and experience like I have. Neither have these other folks that you seem to think have a “deeper” understanding than I do. Your bias in favor of the less experienced believers is unreasonable, and your premise that I am “missing” something is absurd.
“Perhaps we just don’t really understand each other”
— No, I don’t think its because we don’t (ie: we can’t) understand each other… its because you remain unreasonably biased against me, and so you refuse to understand.
“i do respect and take in your viewpoint, but i will extend exactly the same courtesy to the other posters that disagree with you”
— There are no other RS initiates who “disagree” with me about the RS meditation. All initiates are taught the same thing. All initiates know the same meditation procedure. It is not a matter of different opinions. Who disagrees with me? Where and what do they disagree about? No one has diagreed. If they do, then lets see it… what exactly do these people you are referring to disagree about my explanation of the RS meditation procedure? Unless you can show specific evidence of your allegations, then there are no legitimate differences.
All you have to do is to go read the RS literature yourself, and you will find that my simple and brief explanation of the RS meditation procedure and its orientation, is identical to what RS teaches. All initiated RS satsangis have the same information and knowledge. So your doubts, coming from an outsider such as yourself, are mistaken.
“or whom you apparently consider to be fundamentalists like ashy.”
— Ashy’s fundamentalism and fanaticism has nothing to do with the basic facts about the RS meditation procedure. Ashy’s problem has all to do with Ashy’s theological and guru-cultism aspects, and his anger and derisive personal judgements and comments… not the RS meditation process. You are confusing these issues.

“You can verify my so-called “views” simply by reading the RS literature”
— They are not so-called, they are your views. What you say is not gospel, RS or otherwise-ordained. I have read some of the RS literature and i have listened to alot of ppl with varying opinions.
“Is that so? Well then just who are those who disagree?”
— Yes, it is so imo. And whats more, its not so much a case of who disagrees as opposed to who actually agrees with you apart from tucson and brian and roger. Whenever RS rears its head, there are many that have portayed a very different VIEW to yours.
“There are no such differing opinions in the RS sangat regarding the meditation procedure.”
— Firstly, this is not what i said. I am not interested in the meditation procedure. Moreover, i actually do believe there will be satsangis who argue with you over many things, for example: the purpose of the guru, the intentions of RS, the experiences that are achievable and many more.
“I find your persistent yet unfounded doubting a bit annoying, especially when all I have done here is to tell you exactly what the RSSB itself teaches.”
— Tough, i dont really care what you find annoying. If it annoys you don’t respond as you keep seem to be suggesting. As i have stated i have taken in your views of what RSSB teaches as well as those of others, but i dont treat yours as gospel.
“I believe the underlying problem here is that one, you are not an intitiate so you have no experience with RS or the RS meditation, and two, you have not read the RS literature (as far as I know).”
— you don’t know any of that, all you know is what i have acknowledged which is that i know very little, but i know enough to not be browbeaten into accepting someone else viewpoint without considering the alternatives and weighing them up.
“You are still approaching this as if there is something “deeper” that I am missing and do not understand”
— what is so absurd about that? are you saying it is impossible that anyone could have had a deeper spiritual experience than yourself or that it is impossible that someone has understood something you have not? In either case, i would say you are being absurd in drawing such absolute cnclusions, which support my feeling that you are not quite as open-minded or wise as you seem to believe.
“Your bias in favor of the less experienced believers is unreasonable”
— By this i assume you mean Ashy. First how do you know he is less experienced? I would hazard a guess he is more experienced. Second, i listen to both of your views on RS equally whether you care to believe it or not. If you don’t care to be put on the same plane as Ashy or somehow feel you are superior, tough, i do not think you are, just different. Our issue was a more personal one, which we are trying to work through in the interests of peace and politeness.
I repeat i am not interested in the meditation procedure so am not quite sure why you are harping on it.

Roger,
I honestly have no idea about where the teachers get their instructions from. I assume there are basic guidelines but I don’t know much about that.
The GIHF thing is definitely alive and well. We get told myths/stories about various things including past masters. The myths about past masters may propagate the idea that he is other than a simple teacher.
George,
With regards to tAo’s description of the Sant Mat practice and meditation method, while I have never meditated myself, I have attended many many Satsangs. The description given seems to be an accurate one to me. I have heard similar things about the purpose of meditation talked about in Satsang.
And I do agree that the method itself is not open for debate. The master instructs people on how to meditate during initiation and then that method is set in stone and not up for discussion.
As for the rest of what you said I don’t know/don’t really have an opinion. But, the description of the actual practice is faithful and in accordance to what is being taught, according to my knowledge. You would probably find similar stuff in the RS publications.

Rose,
I am not interested in the meditation method. I don’t know where that comes from. In fact if you had read what i said above, i said that i felt tAo probably had a very good understanding of the mechanical tenets behind RS
Also, i believe everything is up for debate, especially where ppl are pro and anti something. Simple mathematical statistics can be spun lets alone words.
On another matter, i did find your background given above to be extraordinarily brave and honest. It seemed quite a striking account of indoctrination to me, but i come from a very secular background. HArd to believe children are pushed by their parents faith into their beliefs in this day and age.

George, if I may make a suggestion:
I’m not sure what questions you have about RSSB/Sant Mat, or what principles of this belief system you consider to be open to debate. This would be an interesting topic to discuss.
I’ve written a book that was published by RSSB, and another book that was distributed by RSSB. I’ve read every word in each book published by RSSB up to the early 2000’s, and have taken extensive notes on the core tenets of the teachings.
I don’t agree that those core beliefs are open to a lot of interpretation. So far as I recall, tAo and Tucson, among others, have done a good job describing those beliefs. However, like I said, it’d be interesting if you laid out the tenets that you consider to be open to debate.
For example, I think it is clear that “the guru is God in human form” is a core RSSB tenet. Sometimes people disagree about that on this blog. I can see why someone would question the reality of that tenet. But there’s little doubt that this is one of the foundations of the Sant Mat system.
Yes, initiates have individual approaches to how they experience Sant Mat. But the core teachings themselves aren’t open to individualistic interpretation.

George,
You keep missing the point. You think that the RS “tenets” differ according to different individul’s opinions. That is not so. All RS initiates know these same so-called “tenets”, especiallly with regard to the meditation.
I said: “Is that so? Well then just who are those who disagree?”
You responded: “Yes, it is so imo. And whats more, its not so much a case of who disagrees as opposed to who actually agrees with you apart from tucson and brian and roger.”
— You still have not specified who, in your opinion, disagrees. This is not about anyone agreeing with ME. It is simply about what the RSSB itself teaches. I gave a brief description of what the RSSB teaches, which you or anyone can verify by going to the RS literature. And furthermore, Roger’s opinion is irrelevant here, as he is not an RS initiate.
“Whenever RS rears its head, there are many that have portayed a very different VIEW to yours.”
— That is NOT so. There are no differing views about the meditation procedure that the RSSB teaches, which is what I had presented, and what you have disputed. If you are going to assert that others have different views about the RS meditation, then provide specific instances and evidence of that.
I said: “There are no such differing opinions in the RS sangat regarding the meditation procedure.”
You responded: “Firstly, this is not what i said. I am not interested in the meditation procedure.”
— Yes it is what you said. I presented a simple explanation of the RS meditation procedure, which you then doubted and said that others have disagreed with my explantion. Yet no one has disagreed, not now and not previously. You are creating a straw-man argument. All I did was to offer you a simple explanation about the RS meditation as it is taught by the RSSB, so that you would better understand what it entails. You then said that others disagree with that explantion. Yet you can not show where anyone has disagreed and what they disagree about. Your argument is ridiculous. There is no basis for it. You apparently refuse to accept anything that I say, no matter what it is or how accurate it is. Thats your own personal problem, and not a matter of the facts about the RS meditation or “tenets”.
“i actually do believe there will be satsangis who argue with you over many things, for example: the purpose of the guru, the intentions of RS, the experiences that are achievable and many more.”
— But, I was not debating about or arguing over: “the purpose of the guru, the intentions of RS, the experiences that are achievable” I simply relaed the RS meditation procedure and its cosmology. The “purpose of the guru”, “the intentions of RS”, and “the experiences that are achievable” are entirely separate issues. You are tying to mix these in. I did not address these issues in the current debate.
I said: “I find your persistent yet unfounded doubting a bit annoying, especially when all I have done here is to tell you exactly what the RSSB itself teaches.”
You responded: “Tough, i dont really care what you find annoying.”
— You are arguing about issues that I did not address by creating a straw-man, and then saying that others don’t agree with me (on other issues that I did not address). I simply gave you a brief description of the orientation and process of the RS meditation. You are now bringing in other issues which have nothing to do with what I said about the RS meditation, and you are trying to pin those issues on me. There may well be disagreements regarding those various other issues, but those issues were not what I addressed in my explanation of the RS meditation procedure.
“i have taken in your views of what RSSB teaches as well as those of others, but i dont treat yours as gospel.”
— But I never said or implied that my views were “gospel”. I simply offered a basic explanation of the RS meditation as it is taught by the RSSB and its gurus and in its literature.
It’s rather ridiculous that you – someone who apparently has little knowledge of the RS teachings and who is not an intitiate and who has never practiced RS meditation – to be debating and doubting the validity of the information about RS meditation that someone like myself (who has 30 years experience) has related. If you doubt what I have said, then all you have to do is go read the RS literature and you will find that what I said is accurate and precisely what RSSB teaches. There is nothing in what I said that was presented as “gospel”. You don’t have to take it from me, you can go verify it in the RS literature.
You don’t fool anyone. You are not really argueing about my explanation of the RS teachings… you are arguing solely for the sake of arguement, and as a ridiculous and unnecessary attempt at discrediting me. You are not simply openly discussing RS or hearing what RS initiates (like myself) have to share with you, you are playing a one-up straw-man game with me, and you are distorting the issues to suit your straw-man game.
I said: “I believe the underlying problem here is that one, you are not an intitiate so you have no experience with RS or the RS meditation, and two, you have not read the RS literature (as far as I know).”
You responded: “you don’t know any of that, all you know is what i have acknowledged which is that i know very little”
— You are being evasive. If you “know very little” as you say, then you must not be an initiate. Its as simple as that. So why deny that?
“but i know enough to not be browbeaten into accepting someone else viewpoint without considering the alternatives and weighing them up.”
— I did not “browbeat” you in any way. I simply shared some basic factual information about the RS meditation. You can “weigh” that or anything you like, but the RS meditation is not a matter of debate. It is known by all initiates. If you doubt the validity of my information, then you can verify it in the RS literature. This arguement is unnecessary and pointless. You are obviously argueing only for the sake of arguement, and you’re doubting and denying my explanation of the RS meditation for the same reason.
I said: “You are still approaching this as if there is something “deeper” that I am missing and do not understand”
You responded: “what is so absurd about that? are you saying it is impossible that anyone could have had a deeper spiritual experience than yourself or that it is impossible that someone has understood something you have not?”
— I did not say that it is “impossible”. And it was not about a “deeper spiritual experience”. I have 30 plus years of knowledge and practice in RS meditation. Either you understand RS meditation, or you don’t.
But if you are referring to deeper experiences in terms of meditative and mystical states, well then that is another issue altogether. And as far as that goes, I very much DO doubt that fanatical and narrow-minded dogmatic RS guru-cult believers have anything even remotely comparable or deeper than the mystical experiences that I have had. But that was not the issue here. The issue was simply my explanation of the RS meditation procedure and oreintation as it is taught in Santmat and by the RSSB.
“In either case, i would say you are being absurd in drawing such absolute cnclusions”
— What “conclusions” are those? That I have an excellent and accurate understanding of the RS meditation process and the RS teachings? Well in fact I do, but you are not in any position to judge or determine otherwise. As I said, you can easily verify what I said by going to the RS literature or by asking other knowledgeable initiates at an RS satsang meeting.
“my feeling that you are not quite as open-minded or wise as you seem to believe.
— That may be your “feeling”… but you since you don’t know that, then it is YOU who are not “open-minded”, and your doubts do not diminish my wisdom in any degree.
I said: “Your bias in favor of the less experienced believers is unreasonable”
You responded: “By this i assume you mean Ashy. First how do you know he is less experienced? I would hazard a guess he is more experienced.”
— And what makes you think that you have any ability to determine that? Do you have extensive experience in RS? The individual is clearly mentally and emotionally disturbed. He is also extremly fanatical and dogmatic and cultish. Those are not at all signs of an individual who has had deep mystical experience, insight, and realization… nor extensive experience in RS meditation.
“i listen to both of your views on RS equally whether you care to believe it or not.”
— And just what “views on RS” has Ashy shared here? The bulk of, if not all of, Ashy’s comments here have been personally derogatory attacks and rude abusive ranting aimed primarily at Brian, and to a lesser degree Tucson and myself. Ashy has engaged in no sharing of his own views on Santmat, nor any reasonable RS related discussions.
“Our issue was a more personal one, which we are trying to work through in the interests of peace and politeness.”
— If that was really true (ie: “in the interests of peace and politeness”)
then you would simply accept my simple explanation about the RS meditation as being generally accurate, instead of creating an argument by inserting other unrelated issues that have nothing to do with my simple factual information about the RS meditation.
“I repeat i am not interested in the meditation procedure so am not quite sure why you are harping on it.”
— You may not be interested, but THAT (RS meditatin) was what I had initially related to you. You then reponded with doubt that my explanation was accurate, by saying that others disagreed with me. Now you are trying to shift the focus to something else. All I can tell you is that if you don’t agree with my explanation, then go check it out in the RS literature. But don’t tell me that others disagree with me when all I have done is to relate the exact RS teachings as they are taught to all RS initiates, and which are expressed throughout the RS literature.

Brian,
The mechanical tenets like medititation, vegetarianism, etc are not my interest. I understand these are merely tools, which anyone can read about. Indeed I thought RS stressed the practical experience over all else.
But since tAo and yourself do appear to have the bit between your teeth with these tenets, I do wonder how many of your ‘core’ tenets would acutally be agreed on by those pro-RS, perhaps thats a good starting point.
However, what is an obvious observation is that there are huge disagreements between satsangis and ex-satsangis on many RS issues and that there is often very little agreed on, as evidenced by the impassioned debates that consume these RS threads.
Its these issues that ppl disagree on that are of interest – i.e. the satguru concept, the intention of RS and the Dera, the intellect/mantra issue, the goal of uniting with something, what that thing is, the mystical experiences achievable, etc.
Your ‘god in human form’ is indeed such an issue. Is this actually the belief? What is the intended meaning of ‘god’ here? I thought different spirtual realms had different gods? Is the eternal ‘sound’ current considered to be a god or remnant of creation? Is god a supernatural being or an ultimate reality or consciousness?
Finally, even if such a belief in a man-god exists, what is so different about this as compared to the christian belief in JC? So what?
Where i do miss the point is that it seems many of the ex-satsangis on here are scientific when it suits, but not at other times. In fact, having been initiated it follows that once upon a time all of you ex-satsangis bought wholeheartdly into RS, but now choose to examine it from a scientic or rationale perspective. If not, why get initiated in the first place since clearly you are not the type of candidate that the tradition can help achieve the experiences possible.
It seems many have then tried to create a more ‘sophisticated’ spirituality of sorts, which is based on hodge-podge of rational science as well as various unscientific unprovable vague beliefs like oneness, voidness, no-thing-ness, etc.
I would suggest that none of your, tAo or Tucon’s spiritual experiences are objectively provable, which is what makes them ‘spiritual’. I would argue that there is no objective proof whatsoever for some sort of primordial state in Dzogchen or the existence of chi in tai-chi. Yet these appear to be your beliefs.
If you are entitled to such unscientific unprovable beliefs, why not the others in a god or RS?
Tao,
It is you who keeps missing the point.
I dont know how many times I need to say this but i am simply not interested in the ‘meditation procedure’. You don’t get it. where do you get this from? Its you and Smack and others above that were arguing about the meditiation procedure, i dont care. I spoke generally about these tenets being only tools used to open one’s mind, to which BRIAN brought up RSSB meditation.
Go read the thread above, its all there. The problem is you are reading what you want to and not what is actually there.

please no more about your extenstive 30-year experience and brilliance. i’ve known ppl who’ve worked in science for 30 years who cant grasp concepts that its takes some a few minutes to comprehend.
Insofar as knowledge is concerned, imo your links on quantum theory are akin to new-age rubbish, amateurs should not dabble in something they have no comprehension of and hold it out as somehow being authoritive, whih is why i acknowledge my limits with RS. It looks like you guys got together in the back of someone’s garage and chucked something together from a 2nd year physics text, your fundamental mathematics is horrific for a start.

“If not, why get initiated in the first place since clearly you are not the type of candidate that the tradition can help achieve the experiences possible.”
—So, what is this tradition?
—I like this “helping” to achieve a possible experience.
—If I work really hard, will I experience a really good experience. I like the good ones.

tao, please offer to describe and explain the most outstanding mystical experiences you have had both within RS and without.
It is up to every individual to interpret those experiences for themselves and what they mean.
For example, if you experienced the light and sound with RS meditation, then other people can decide whether or not those experiences have any meaning independent of what your personal opinion about them is. Once you explain what your experiences actually are, then it is possible to engage in discussion about them.
All i have seen from your posts is that you have meditated for 30 plus years with RS, had tons of mystical experiences, left them and don’t seem to think those experiences are valuable in comparison to your experiences in other traditions. So if you can tell us exactly what your experience with RS in meditation were, it would help to clear away a lot of confusion.

George, you seem to be obsessed with some questions that appear to be of great interest to you, but which leave me (and others, I’m sure) confused about your motives.
In fact, I’m confused about the questions themselves. I’m not sure what exactly is bothering you about discussions regarding Sant Mat/RSSB here.
As I’ve noted before, there’s a tendency among some commenters — you being a notable example — to focus on personal issues (who has said what to whom, and how they said it in a comment, for example) rather than substantive issues, which I find a lot more interesting.
I suggested before to you that you clearly lay out the questions or issues that you’d like to have discussed here. I think that would be more productive than your repetitive questioning about how other people (and this blog as a whole) look upon churchlessness.
If you think this blog, and conversations here are useless, then why take part in them? On the other hand, if there is utility in what we’re doing here, then why not take part positively and productively rather than keep on criticizing?
The rest of the Internet is just a click away if the Church of the Churchless isn’t your cup of tea. If it is, though, sit down and have some friendly chats about whatever subjects you’re interested in.

The 4 life cycle topic is of some interest.
Some questions,
—Does One, in their 2nd, 3rd, or 4th life cycle, know through meditations, that they are in a particular cycle? This would assume some sort of advanced meditation status, or awareness.
—Why would the Master feel a need for a second Initiation, in a 2nd life cycle, when One has received an Initiation in Ones first life cycle? This would apply to the 3rd and 4th too.
—Is there value, in being initiated again and again? An example: would the 2nd Initiation, kinda jump start One into their next cycle? Due to the 24 year void, age requirement for Initiation.
Responses from someone that has a firm belief and extensive knowledge of the 4 life cycle Santmat process, would be greatly appreciated. IMO, there are no right or wrong replies. For me, this is an interesting topic, nothing more.
Best wishes,
Roger

“Finally, even if such a belief in a man-god exists, what is so different about this as compared to the christian belief in JC? So what?”
Wow. The “so what” here shocks me a little. The difference is that Jesus is dead and god-men are living. The belief people have in their godliness gives them immense power to exploit others. To get money, extort people, etc. This is true for many god-men in general not just the RS one. Using their power and status to fool people (Sai Baba, at least I think one of the Sai Babas, is an example).
If you believed that a living person was God incarnate and told you to do something, wouldn’t you do it? Wouldn’t you feel guilty if you didn’t. In my home town, for example, the RS community I think last year or something, were going to build a new centre. They bought out a school costing hundreds of thousands of dollars (if my currency conversion is right). But apparently, they did not have enough funds to complete the transaction. This in itself is weird because RS (read: Gurinder) owns so much property around the world, there are donations from millions of followers, people donate their wills to RS. Apparently (this was cited in the RSSB data website, and I have heard about this elsewhere) Gurinder sent his son to Eton college and has a private jet. And they do not have enough money?
But, I digress. The point is, a very close relative of mine told me that he and some others from the community were called in for a meeting at the RS centre. A high level person told them that Gurinder himself had selected them to do ‘seva’ by giving them enough funds to buy the school. Somewhere around tens of thousands of dollars were requested. This was not a loan, they would not have given the money back. My relative told me this was not to be communicated to anyone. This relative truly truly believes in the God in Human Form thing. He was also having financial trouble at the time. God asks you for tens of thousands of dollars, how do you refuse? There is evidence elsewhere on this website, given by Unknown I think it was, about people being cheated out of their wills.
I’m sorry if I seem a bit more touchy than usual, but I personally feel that this is morally wrong. The belief that a human being is GIHF gives that human being, too much power which can and is being used to cause people wrong. Not just in RS, it’s common for god-men in India to extort and exploit people. I just feel that this whole thing is so wrong and if the appointed God-men had any sense of right and wrong they would stand up and publicly admit that the whole GIHF thing is a bunch of crap. The GIHF thing is a core problem with RS and should be directly addressed by Gurinder by telling people, explicitly, and repeatedly to stop thinking of him in that way. It’ll never happen but it’s not right.
Again, George, I am very sorry about my touchy response but this is one thing I feel strongly about and I don’t really like my close relatives being exploited.

right thats it for me, it isn’t my cupt of tea, clearly you bunch are thicker than a sack of hammers.
free thinkers my arse.
god what a waste of time.
Basically a bunch of new age flakes trying to pretend they know something about something.
At least the atheists have half a brain.
frightening.
say hello to the sun god on the other side.
over&out
George

Rose, excellent thoughts. I had the same reaction when I saw the “so what?” comment. But your response is better than any I could have made, since you provided specific examples of why this issue of God in Human Form is important — not something to be brushed away.
If someone claims to be God incarnate, or allows others to make this claim for them without disavowing it, this is pretty serious. It raises the bar considerably on moral/ethical issues, for one thing. Human imperfections shouldn’t be evident, if one considers God to be the summit of perfection.
Of course, this presumes that we know what God is like, or what “perfection” means. It could be argued (and many do) that we are all God in human form, because reality is one, not many.
But this isn’t how Sant Mat sees the GIHF question. And as you pointed out, this has the potential of leading to significant power imbalances in relationships between the guru and his representatives, and disciples who understandably want to stay on the good side of God.

This will be my final comment and response to George on this particular issue/debate:
[Note/Update: I started out writng the following comment (my final response to George) several hours ago, but since then, I see that George has posted again, and has just revealed his true colors. I knew that he would show his true ugly self sooner or later. I had an intuitive feeling that George’s motives and his underlying attitude were not really what he has been trying to make himself appear as on the surface. It’s now clear and evident and obvious where George is really at, and just how judgemental and critical and negative he really is underneath his pretentious facade.
Never the less, I will go on ahead and post the comments that I wrote anyway, just so that George’s twisting and distorting of the facts and of my previous comments on this issue, don’t go unanswered.
So here is basically what I had written on the matter sometime earlier today:
George said:
“The mechanical tenets like medititation, vegetarianism, etc are not my interest. I understand these are merely tools”
— Incorrect. The RS mediation is not a “tool”. It is the core practice. It is the path. The vegetarian diet and moral principles etc are merely aids/tools.
“I thought RS stressed the practical experience over all else.”
— RS lays great stress upon the practice of meditation, not any sort of “experience”.
“since tAo and yourself do appear to have the bit between your teeth with these tenets, I do wonder how many of your ‘core’ tenets would acutally be agreed on by those pro-RS”
— ALL RS satsangis agree on the “core tenets”. ALL of the RS initiates, (both “pro” and “ex” satsangis), are knowledgeable of, and agree on the core tenets. The “tenets” are not alterable according to personal opinions. They are taught both at formal initiation and also in all of the literature. There is NO such disgreement (or confusion) regarding what the CORE “tenets” of Santmat/RS are, among initiates. This erroneous idea of George’s, is from an uninformed non-initiate outsider’s perspective.
“an obvious observation is that there are huge disagreements between satsangis and ex-satsangis on many RS issues”
— Incorrect. There are some disagreements concerning other issues (ie: beliefs), but not about the basic RS meditation practice and principles.
“Its these issues that ppl disagree on that are of interest – i.e. the satguru concept, the intention of RS and the Dera, the intellect/mantra issue, the goal of uniting with something, what that thing is, the mystical experiences achievable, etc.”
— Some of those issues are debateable, but not all are accurate. For instance, there is no such “goal of uniting with something”, and nor is there any debate or diagreement about the internal “mantra” (simran).
“Your ‘god in human form’ is indeed such an issue. Is this actually the belief?”
— It is the belief that is presented and implied in the RS teachings, but – it is not my “god in human form” – ie: it is not MY belief. This issue is about the fact that the GIHF idea is in fact one of the primary accepted beliefs of the Santmat/RS belief system. ‘We’ (menaing all of us) do not necessarily believe that. I don’t, and I know others do not either. But many “pro-RS” beleivers DO subscribe to this idea. It is the so-called “pro-RS” believers who do believe in the GIHF, in the Santmat GIHF idea. Therein lays the debate.
“What is the intended meaning of ‘god’ here?”
— I don’t know what you mean by ‘god’. The supreme Godhead in RS is called Sat Purusha (Lord of Truth), Radha Soami (Lord of the Soul), or Anami Purush (Nameless Lord).
“I thought different spirtual realms had different gods?”
— Not exactly. In the RS theology & cosmology, the different realms (lower mind, higher mind, and transcendant spiritual) are supposedly presided over by lesser lords who are in the service of the supreme godhead Radha Soami.
“Is the eternal ‘sound’ current considered to be a god or remnant of creation?”
— Neither. According to Santmat, the sound curent or ‘shabd’ is the universal spiritual vibratory emanation of the supreme Godhead. The shabd is believed to manifest, support, and maintain all of lower creation.
“Is god a supernatural being or an ultimate reality or consciousness?”
— Both. In Santmat the Godhead is the divine person “Sat Purusha” or “Radha Soami”, and is also the supreme spiritual consciousness.
“even if such a belief in a man-god exists, what is so different about this as compared to the christian belief in JC?”
— There IS little or no difference… and that IS the point. The GIHF idea in RS is the same as the Christian’s belief that Jesus is GIHF or God in Human Form.
“it seems many of the ex-satsangis on here are scientific when it suits, but not at other times.”
— That’s baloney. If you are going to make such an assertion, then you need to provide specific instances and evidence.
“having been initiated it follows that once upon a time all of you ex-satsangis bought wholeheartdly into RS…”
— Incorrect. Not everyone “bought wholeheartdly into RS”. I for one did not. And I am aware of others who also entered nto RS on a tenetive trial basis.
“…but now choose to examine it from a scientic or rationale perspective.”
— Yes, and why not? Why shouldn’t people examine RS? Just because they got initiation does not mean that they must suspend all examination, scrutiny, or evaluation.
“If not, why get initiated in the first place since clearly you are not the type of candidate that the tradition can help achieve the experiences”
— People apply for initiation simply because they wish to practice Santmat. There are not “types” who inherently can or cannot “achieve” results… and no one knows what the results will be when starting out anyway.
“It seems many have then tried to create a more ‘sophisticated’ spirituality of sorts, which is based on hodge-podge of rational science as well as various unscientific unprovable vague beliefs like oneness, voidness, no-thing-ness, etc.”
— I don’t see that anyone here has “tried to create” any sort of different or “more sophisticated” “hodge-podge” type of spirituality or other beliefs. These notions like “oneness, voidness, no-thing-ness” are merely concepts.
“I would suggest that none of your, tAo or Tucon’s spiritual experiences are objectively provable”
— No doubt, but neither Brian, nor Tucson, nor I have ever said that such “experiences” are proveable. None of us is touting “experiences” as proof of anything.
“I would argue that there is no objective proof whatsoever for some sort of primordial state in Dzogchen…”
— You still have no understanding of what dzogchen is about. The “primordial” is simply awareness, not some “state”. Awareness needs no “proof”. And the ‘self-perfected state’ as it is referred to, simply means the recognition of the prior nature of awareness. There is no “proof” necessary. Its really rather lame how George judges things without first obtaining a clear understanding of what it is that he is judging. This tells far more about George and his questionable motives here, than anything else.
“…or the existence of chi in tai-chi. Yet these appear to be your beliefs. If you are entitled to such unscientific unprovable beliefs, why not the others in a god or RS?”
— I personally don’t think that Brian holds any such beliefs about Tai Chi. Tai Chi is not a belief, it is simply a type of physical & mental & energetic exercise to develop (I assume) a more harmonious integration of body and mind. However, I am not a practitioner of Tai Chi, and so I am not at all knowedgeable about it. Brian can address this Tai Chi thing much better than I anyway.
“Tao, It is you who keeps missing the point.”
— You mean the “point” that YOU keep trying to evade and twist into something else? LOL
“i am simply not interested in the ‘meditation procedure’.”
— Then why have you argued about it so much? And if you are “not interested” in it, then why do you assume that other initiates disagree with the info that I related, which is exactly what Santmat and the RSSB itself teaches?
“You don’t get it. where do you get this from?”
— From YOU George… from YOUR comments.
“Its you and Smack and others above that were arguing about the meditiation procedure”
— No George, it was YOU who came forward and YOU who doubted my simple rendition of the RS meditation, it was YOU who said that other “pro-RS” believers would disagree with my explanation. If you are not interested, then why even question my explanation? Your little tricks don’t fool us George.
“i dont care.”
— You DO care, because if you did not care, then you would not have concerned yourself and not have challenged my info.
“I spoke generally about these tenets being only tools used to open one’s mind”
— Again, the medatitaion practice is not simply a “tool”, it is the core practice. Vegetarianism is an aid/tool, but not the meditation. Moreover, as I said before, the goal is NOT to “open one’s mind”. It is to transcend the body and the mind, and to eventually enter the purely spiritual plane/realm. The goal of RS is NOT at all to “open one’s mind”. I had already explaind that to you some time ago. But you have ignored (and even doubted) every bit of information that I have offered and shared regarding the RS meditation path.
“The problem is you are reading what you want to and not what is actually there.”
— No George, that is clearly what YOU have been doing. The evidence is all there in your previous comments.
“please no more about your extenstive 30-year experience and brilliance.”
— The only reason that I had made any note of my long experince with RS, was to establish wherefrom I derive my information and my knowledge. The basic inforamtion that I have offered has been sincere and accurate, and I never claimed any such “brilliance”. Your complaint is just another lame attempt to personally ridicule me.
“i’ve known ppl who’ve worked in science for 30 years who cant grasp concepts that its takes some a few minutes to comprehend.”
— That has nothing to do with me.
“imo your links on quantum theory are akin to new-age rubbish”
— Thats not what Dr Henry Stapp – who btw is a professor at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory – thinks. I happen to know him personally, and he is quite familiar with this work and these papers, and he just happens to much approve of this work. You can contact him and ask him yourself if you feel so inclined.
So again George, your attempt at ridicule is revealed for what it really is… empty and unfounded. And I knew your derisive little game practically from the very get-go.
“amateurs should not dabble in something they have no comprehension of and hold it out as somehow being authoritive”
— Unfortunately for YOU George, that is not what Dr Henry Stapp – a renowned quantum physicist – thinks. Here is a Wiki excerpt on Dr Stapp’s background:
“Henry Stapp is an American physicist, well-known for his work in quantum mechanics.
After receiving his PhD in particle physics at the University of California, Berkeley, under the supervision of Nobel Laureates Emilio Segrè and Owen Chamberlain, Stapp moved to ETH Zurich to do post-doctoral work under Wolfgang Pauli. During this period he composed an article called ‘Mind, Matter and Quantum Mechanics’, which he never sent for publication, but would become the title of his 1993 book. When Pauli died in 1958, Stapp transferred to Munich, now in the company of Werner Heisenberg. While making important contributions to, inter alia, the analysis of proton-proton scattering and the development of analytic S-matrix theory, Stapp is perhaps most well known for his ongoing work in the foundations of quantum mechanics, with particular focus on explicating the role and nature of consciousness. He is also an expert on Bell’s Theorem, having solved problems related to non-locality presented by John Bell and Albert Einstein. He is a professor at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.”
— So George, your pretentious intellect and supposed scientific background just doesn’t cut the mustard here. Your puffed-up little put-down game hasn’t fooled anyone.
“It looks like you guys got together in the back of someone’s garage and chucked something together from a 2nd year physics text, your fundamental mathematics is horrific for a start.”
— Well… again, thats not what Dr Stapp thinks.
[For additional info on Dr Henry Stapp, readers can go here]:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Stapp
Adios George, and better troll-luck next time.

I like Rose’s straightforward practicality and honesty, and once again tAo has clearly elucidated Sant Mat tenets while displelling the clouds George deliberately tries to make.

tAo, I think that could have been a Dzogchen response- measured, level, aware, attentive and harmless.
George, thanks for your opposition. Find a book on the history of sant mat- I think David Lane’s book is called ‘A Radha Soami Tradition’and it can be downloaded. The straight forward info contained therein, is revealing.
More relevant questions from Roger. Come on, who can answer?!
Rose, that was interesting. There are certain questions that Satsangis don’t ask. They are considered rude, personal and unnecessary questions, but they are telling. Here they are;
Where do/ did the Gurus children go to school/ university? ( Name the institutions) What are their names and what do they do now? What is the gurus wife’s name? What was her line of business/ work? What does she do now? What did the guru do in his line of the electronics business? Has he retired or is he paid as an absent partner?
How many family houses does the guru have and where are they? Is there a jet? Where does it park?
No satsangi has been able to answer these basic questions. Anyone able to?

Dear Roger,
I am in my 4th cycle and I now know that I am a
continuum.I was never born and I never die.I did all my cycles at the same time in the endless NOW.I
reveal this secret so that others may learn that no
guru is needed for this for what we are is an IS and not a happening and how do you find this secret.You need to die before you die and then you dont die when you die.
Enjoy
Love
Obed

Catherine,
You are right. Those questions are telling in that, if people don’t ask those sorts of questions, it gives Gurinder more license to do whatever he wants from all the money gained through the organisation. There should be complete transparency with any position of power, imo.
There is an except from Origin and Growth detailing how the Guru gets all RS properties and donations. It’s posted in the following blog post: https://churchofthechurchless.com/2009/01/a-critique-of-radha-soami-satsang-beas?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2011168d30556970c
So considering all properties and donations go to the Guru, he’s worth a whole lot of money. So I don’t think it’s surprising if his kids went to Eton (the Princes of England went to school there). Even if it turns out that they didn’t go there after all, it is worth adding this question to your list:
Why do all monetary donations and properties go to the Guru if he has his own electronics business? Surely, he should be the picture of humble living.

Obed,
Thanks for the reply. The continuum is nice.
Roger

Catherine
I think I have answers to some of your questions.Well I haven’t asked these questions to Guru.
Gurinder was not in electronics business, he was working with Balanis in Malaga Spain. Balanis were importers/distributors of watches like seiko, citizn, orient etc.
Gurinder was not a partner and he was in the administration. I think his wife’s name is Shabnam.She is not in any business, most of the times she is also with Gurinder especially in Europe. U.K. is the second home of Gurinder, as Dallhousie was of Charan Singh.
The father of Shabnam(Father in law of Gurinder) is now an active Sevadar, after the differences with Kuku(son of Charan Singh)have been calmed.
A complete information regarding admission of his children in Eton College in UK was collected, but whether his children studied there or not I don’t know.
The elder son of Gurinder is married and the younger was still studying, I don’t know where.
There is a helipad in Beas.I don’t know how many houses Gurinder owns.

Juan,
There’s a helipad in Beas? I did not know that! Very useful to know, so thanks for the information 🙂

Juan (and others),
What was the dispute between Kuku (son of Charan) and Gurdiner?
I love Sant Mat gossip. It would be great to have a monthly Sant Mat gossip magazine that delves into the lives of the major players, paparazzi photos, scandals, etc.
Headlines on the front cover could include:
–Does my bum look big on this meditation mat?
–Beauty secrets of the Masters
–Master’s New York turban shopping spree
–“I’m judgmental and arrogant”: Sevadar tells all
That’s what I’m talking about.

Oh hell, I just couldn’t resist…
Well here’s a few choice tidbits for that gossip mag… which perhaps could even be named “SMACK” (in this case, an acronym/abbreviation for “Sant Mat Asses, Creeps, & Kooks”):
Now on to the uhh, sticky stuff…
Gurinder has at least one private jet (maybe more), apparently donated by the Ranbaxy Pharmaceuticals (pharma drug pushers) family, of all people! Don’t know where it is parked, but certainly not at Beas. That’s what the heli-pad is for… to airlift the master and his VIP entourage to to the jet, so he won’t have to use his divine gihf-powers. That heli-pad is also used for other incoming VIPs (like wealthy people and government vips) coming to visit the Dera.
Gurinder also apparantly has several very expensive vacation or retreat houses/properties… supposedly one in Hawaii, one in northern India, in the U.K., and most likely some other places.
Income: Well personally, I don’t think Gurinder gets any income from Spain, unless it is a very small allowance or retirement’ (although unlikely). I believe (imo) that his his expenses (including housing properties and all his family & children expenses) are ALL paid by the RSSB from donation and business income funds. He basically works for and serves the interests of the RSSB, even though on the surface for PR purposes, he is treated like a king/maharaja. Although in many ways he is actually a feudal lord.
Ahhh yes… it rather stinks doesn’t it?
Y’all take care now, and I’ll be back in about a month with another sleaze report. Until then you can tune into TMZ for Gurinder’s Bollywood connections and celebrity escapades. And mabe Smack will get that online magazine (gossip blog?) up and running.
Ohhh Yeeeaaahhh !!!

That was tasty… and I must say I really like the name!

SMACK Special Report:
This just came in. All you spiritual master gossip freaks will definitely want to go read the blog I’ve linked to below.
It’s actually very appropriate to this recent discussion about the RSSB “spiritual master” personal info thing.
The blog is authored by a very close and long-time friend of mine by the name of Les Visible. The name of this particular spiritual/metaphysical blog of his is “Visible Origami” (he has other blogs too).
And the latest blog article I am referring to is titled: “The Spiritual Master Game and Official T-Shirt”. It’s all about the Spiritual Master Game (the one that all spiritual masters must play). The article is both insightful and humorous. Just the thing for us Churchless observers of the RS spiritual master game.
So enjoy, and also become enlightened about “spiritual masters”… all at the same time! You must read through the entire article though. Just click here:
http://lesvisible.blogspot.com/2009/05/spiritual-master-game-and-official-t_01.html