Atheists crush Christians at “Does God Exist?” debate

Yes, I watched the Nightline episode that had the highlights of the debate. What I love most about Cameron’s and Comfort’s painting and camera arguments-from-design, is that they’re actually presenting evidence for polytheism. Ever see a painter who didn’t have parents, grandparents, ancestors, etc.?? If there’s a painter, I know there must be ancestors of the painter. When I see a camera, I know that the camera must have been the product of many hands, (not to mention factories, etc.)
Dumb as a mushroom. Dumb as a couple of suitcases.

Oh boy, one of the channels on cable in my area called the Trinity Broadcast Network consistently airs shows with “The Way of the Master” starring Kirk Cameron. Where did he go wrong? Saved by the Bell, anyone?

Brian –
I apologize for diverging, but who attended that meeting? Did it contain atheists and Christians alike?
But that woman showed some pizzazz, fo’shizzle.

Which one is the Red Sox and which one is the Yankees?
Oh wait, one side is Sharks and one is Jets?
Geeks and Freaks?
I can never remember if feed a Christian, starve an atheist. Or feed a Christian TO an atheist.

In the beginning of the debate, we were shown a painting and an explanation that there must exist a painter. There were other references as well to material things that would only exist because of an inventor, builder, designer. One most important point was missed here that no one mentioned. The belief in God really only comes from a “BOOK” that we don’t even know the author of. We all know throughout history that books come in many forms such as fiction or non-fiction. We don’t even know where this book should be referenced in. A writer has the full control to write about anything he choose whether real or unreal. Many travel the world in search of other world views. Have you noticed the “Time-date” the book is in? Even “Revelation” which is set in our future doesn’t project how it will really be, only how it was seen in the time it was written. There is no talk in the bible of dinosaurs, the earth not being flat. It was written by what someone or a group of someones knew at the time. If so much is the word of God that transends time, why is all the talk and experience all in one time period? Anyone could have written that book and for any reason or purpose. The reference to pictures and objects is pointless, a book can mean anything and take us on any journey the writer wishes us to go. Maybe this was the writers intention all along. Think about it!

I had one other comment to make about the above segment when there was talk about why there is suffering. In the beginning, “Adam” and “Eve” sinned, therefore their future generations were going to suffer-which actually sounds really wrong to begin with-to blame future generations on something two infants did, which is what they were, they were new to the world and did what any child would do to any parent-misbehave. Anyway, God supposedly wiped out the world and started over with Moses and his Arc, so why when starting a new world would God pass over all past punishments on a new world? Why would he do something like that??? Makes no sense at all. One who starts something over usually starts from scratch with another plan in mind-an improvement on an old way. A better beginning.

Its Noah’s arc not Moses’. But that is a really good point. The 2 fundamentalist also forgot the fact that the bible said sin cannot be “inherited”, but this is quite a contradicting point in the bible anyways.
Fallen or not, its still not a justification to unleash suffering to the world. Those two can say that because THEY are not the ones who are suffering, its such a irresponsible comment to make on live television. I would love to see them say “thank God for giving me cancer, I so deserve it” when they actually got it. I could more easily imagine them saying “I have been a loyal servant, why me?”
I guess the only way to put an end this is the invention of time machine or at least something which allows us to study the past in every detail (something like the machine in Dejavu maybe?)
We need to punch into their mind the fact that a TRUE loving being we NOT induce suffering under ANY circumstances and there is also no prerequisite to perfect forgiveness.

i’m glad god doesn’t exist. now i can take as many drugs as i want.
Louie.

I am so sad to hear so much hostility towards these Christians. They are reaching out in love, a message that they believe with their whole heart, and their fellow human race has responded with hatred. Most of the comments I read were very petty and childish. Whether we believe in God or not, we will pass before His judgment. I pray that you all will open your heart even just a little bit, to let some light in.

Leigh-Ann, historically, christians have reached out with intolerance and a sword. When the dialogue is elevated beyond Christians being right, and everyone else being wrong, they will seem much less suspicious.
God’s judgement will not come “someday”, it is always now.

Leigh-Ann,
How do you construe judgement and intolerance towards non-christians as “reaching out in love”?
You wrote: Whether we believe in God or not, we will pass before His judgment.”
This statement of yours represents nothing more your own personal “judgment” against those who do not believe, based upon your own rigid belief in “God” and “His judgement”. It is absolutely faulty logic.
I hope that YOU will open YOUR HEART and cease your religious narrow-mindedness and self-righteousness.

Tao,
Actually, I can do NOTHING truly good. I have to count on Jesus. He is righteous for me. And, I really am not narrow-minded. I have a respect for every one. My closest friends do not believe like me. All religions may point to the right way, but Jesus is the way. All religions may point to the truth, but Jesus is the truth. I am not a religious person. Religion Will NOT save me or you. Only a belief and relationship with Jesus who died for me and you will save us. That’s true love. But, to even want to be saved, you have to know that you need to be saved. I encourage you to read the New Testament again and call out to God. There is no harm in trying right?

Leigh-Ann, what is a belief in Jesus who supposedly died for you and will save you,if not a belief in a religious dogma. In fact I would like to point out that such a belief is even opposed to Jesus’ teachings who explicitly denies any worship of idols and says that truth and “the kingdom of God” is not found without ( in this case in a mythical saviour who was sent from God in heaven ) but within oneself. How can Jesus be righteous for you? It is an incredibly narrow view on life if you look at it only through the words of scripture. This itself is limiting yourself to one system of thought instead of opening oneself to diversity in life.

Leigh-Ann,
It appears that you are actually unaware and in denial of the reality of your rigid christian religious belief system and dogma. However, that is not uncommon.
You have written: “I can do NOTHING truly good.”
That is a particularly negative view to have of oneself. It is indicative of a feeling of inferiority and a pretense of humility. It is a mindset which you have bought into which is very disempowering. It is truly sad and unfortunate that you, and others like you, have let this wrong idea reduce your self-esteem and self-cnfidence to such a pathetically low level. Your life is meant to be an expression and manifestation of goodness, not the other way around. You’ve really got it turned around all wrong. You are meant to be a light unto the world, not a void. It is so sad to see people like you lose their soul.
You have written: “I have to count on Jesus.”
What Jesus? Where is this supposed Jesus? You are doing nothing more than counting on a figment of your own and others imagination.
You have written: “I really am not narrow-minded.”
You may say that, but the rest of your words indicate otherwise.
You have written: “I have a respect for every one.”
I disagree. You may think that you do in your imagination, but the evidence indicates otherwise. Let me point out that your previous two statements (“Most of the comments I read were very petty and childish” -and- “Whether we believe in God or not, we will pass before His judgment”) DO NOT reflect much respect at all towards the different views and spiritual orientations of others in this forum. This Churchless blog and comment forum is not a Christian believer’s forum, and you are not open-minded.
You have written: “All religions may point to the right way, but Jesus is the way. All religions may point to the truth, but Jesus is the truth.”
These statements of yours exude an extremely self-righteous “my way is the only way” or “Jesus is the ONLY way” type of mentality. It does NOT show acknowledgement and tolerance towards other spiritual or religious or philosophical persuasions. To say that only one single individual who is merely supposed to have lived and preached 2000 years ago, is the ONE AND ONLY TRUTH and the ONE AND ONLY WAY, is utterly absurd and bereft of all reason and common sense. It is an expression of the utmost stupidity.
You have written: “I am not a religious person.”
Thats total BS. Who do you think you are fooling? – You are only fooling yourself. Belief in Jesus is commonly referred to as Christianity, and that is religion, no matter how you cut it.
You have written: “Only a belief and relationship with Jesus who died for me and you will save us.”
There you go again with your narrow dogmatic pronouncements. We have all seen many people like you. I just don’t see what you think you are going to prove by posting such garbage. You just don’t have a clue. You are clearly a brain-washed Jesus cultist. You are nothing more that a parrot of born-again evangelical Christian religious dogma. You are deluded and living in a fantasy, an illusory “relationship with Jesus”.
You have written: “That’s true love.”
According to that statement, I don’t think you have even the slightest idea of what the nature of love is.
You have written: “…you have to know that you need to be saved.”
And you need to know that you do not know what anyone else needs. Who are you to determine what others need? it is this kind of biased CRAP that is what really turns people off to “Jesus” touting Christians and their ridiculous beliefs.
You have written: “I encourage you to read the New Testament again and call out to God.”
I would venture to say that probably everyone else who comments in this forum is quite familiar with The New Testament… and probably far more familiar and knowledgeable of it than you are.
So what are you here for? Are you here just to preach your blind narrow-minded “Jesus Saves” dogma? If you are, then I think you are in the wrong place. I don’t think anyone here is interested in being preached to.

the mystery of life and love
will always haunt the heart
forever inexplicible
infusing faith and art

I am not here to preach, although you sound like you would make an excellent preacher. And you’re right. You probably do know the New Testament better than me. I don’t claim to know the Bible inside out. I speak from a personal experience I had with Jesus that then led to me exploring the Bible. After a life full of bad decisions (I’m sure everyone can relate) I cried out to God. I felt very disgusted with myself, like I was the scum of the world. My soul was in complete agony. Not knowing what else to do I cried out to God asking if He was done with me. And if I was going to Hell. I didn’t really expect a response.
Then He came to me. I felt His presence stronger than any other. I truly had the fear of the Lord, for His presence is AWESOME. Until then I was unsure if He existed. He said “you are mine”. He covered me with forgiveness. I am brand new. The mistakes I made are erased. The mistakes I am still making are erased. This is why I say, I am righteous through Jesus. Not because of low self esteem, but because of the way He changed me inside out. His love, not condemnation, is what made up my mind.
Everyone has their own story. That was mine. God Bless.

Leigh-Ann,
You wrote (in quotations):
“I am not here to preach”
Perhaps thats what you think, but it certainly looks like preaching to me.
“I speak from a personal experience I had with Jesus”
That would pnly be a personal subjective experience. Not a reality.
“I truly had the fear of the Lord”
Fear is never the way to God. There is no fear in God, nor should there be any for God.
“He said “you are mine”.”
Only in your mind. There is no other. God is not an other. There is no separation.
“I am brand new. The mistakes I made are erased. The mistakes I am still making are erased.”
But you are always “brand new” in the ever-fresh timeless moment anyway. Everything is “erased”, everything is vanishing… unless you hold on to it.
“Everyone has their own story. That was mine.”
Whatever.

well, i see people always talking about “If God exist” and i always wonder, “What if he does and there is a heaven and a hell”. Then i wil spend eternity with my Father in heaven and the unbelievers will suffer in hell”. If god doesnt exist, then i have lost nothing and my morals have gained from living a life of good.

Lee, good grief!
Live a life of “good”, but don’t waste your time believing in some wrathful, vengeful diety who punishes his creations for the very defects he built into them by banishing them to hell. This is an asinine belief founded in ignorance, superstition and fear. Do you want to spend eternity with such a sadistic creature? Such qualities would more likely be found in the devil. Look within yourself to what is prior to thought and concepts to see what is real.

Does God exist or more intelligently is there an unseen controlling entity that designed and made/fabricated the universe and everything in it? Your body is made of atoms (the smallest component of an element). The majority of your body is made of only three elements, hydrogen, Oxygen and carbon. A 70 kilogram person (154 lbs or 11 stones) would have approximately 727 atoms. That is 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. At the start of the universe, shortly after it coming into existence after the so-called big bang, everything that is in the universe now (matter and energy) existed (although it was mostly the element Hydrogen at that time). This is of course theoretical as is nearly all of our understanding of the universe from the very large (astronomy0 to the very small (quantum mechanics).
Astronomers can only account for 4% of the universe. They theorise that the missing part is made up of 22% dark matter and 74% dark energy. The universe is behaving in a way that contradicts the understood laws of physics and no one knows why.
The estimated age of the earth is 4.5 billion (4,500,000,000) years. Life is thought to have started 3.5 billion (3,500,000,000) years ago. The fossil record appears to start suddenly about 600 million years ago. All the worlds mammals are thought to have evolved from a small shrew/mouse type creature that lived 65 million years ago at the time the dinosaurs became extinct. Man (Hominid species) emerged during the Pleistocene epoch from 1,808,000 to 11,550 years ago the descendents of ape like creatures that lived 2.5 million years ago. The time lines are not logical. For 63 million years there must have been enormous changes and diversification but for the past 2.5 million nothing. Supposedly, all the many different kind of mammals that live now evolved from a single source (a small mouse like mammal) over a period of 63 million years. Then evolution suddenly stopped.
……………………………………………………………………………………………
Look round you, open your eyes. The total number of living species runs into millions. Think of the enormous complexity and symmetry of every living thing. Think of the many different types of butterflies with there intricate wing markings. Think of the thousand types of exotic fish in tropical waters. Marvel at the complexity of the eye and the enormously complex structure of the human body. Think of the multitude of insects and beetles. See the many species of birds with their intricate feather markings. Darwin gave us the theory/idea that it all came about by small accidental changes over a long period of time, which he called Natural Selection, the process by which evolution occurs. Putting aside for one moment the question of how life started; not even over an infinite time would we arrive accidentally at the enormous complexity and symmetry of life that we have on earth. The only thing that will ever come from chaos is chaos.
………………………………………………………………………………………………..
The human brain contains more than 100 billion (100,000,000,000) neurons. My personal PC has 149 GB of storage. 149 Gigabytes is 149,000,000,000. That means my PC has more storage capacity than my brain. Nobody understands how the brain stores and retrieves memory, makes us dream and enables us to become thinking aware emotional beings. It is a complete mystery. Martin Rees (cosmologist) said, “What is remarkable is that atoms have assembled into entities which are somehow able to ponder their origins”. What he should have said is “From all the material that came into existence very soon after the theoretical Big Bang it is impossible for life to start”. “Unintelligent atoms will always be that no matter what combinations that they are joined in”. I repeat..FROM ALL THE MATERIAL THAT CAME INTO EXISTENCE VERY SOON AFTER THE THEORETICAL BIG BANG IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR LIFE TO START. UNINTELLIGENT ATOMS WILL ALWAYS BE THAT NO MATTER WHAT COMBINATIONS THAT THEY ARE JOINED IN. So, how are we thinking, living , human living animals if we are made of cells, molecules, elements which in turn are made from individual unthinking atoms?
…………………………………………………………………………………………….
Why do people believe in evolution and accept it when it is obvious nonsense. Is it because it is a convenient answer to the religious alternative of an all loving and wise creator/fabricator (God) which they cannot accept. It is obvious that if there is an entity called God he/it is evil, malicious and a grand deceiver. If evolution is obvious nonsense (which it is), and there is not a loving wise creator what is the truth? And what is the meaning of life?
A book was published in 2007 called ‘The Testament of Gideon Mack’. It is about a Church of Scotland minister who claims to have met the Devil (Satan) in an underground cave. The end of his life saw Mack discredited as a lunatic and castigated by his kirk. It is acceptable to many people to believe in a loving, caring God but not an evil entity called Satan. Yet the reality is obvious. There is no sign at all of a loving, caring, all-powerful God but every sign that if there is an unseen controlling entity it/he makes the biblical Satan look like a Sunday school teacher by comparison. During the past 120 years, over 200 million people have been killed by the deliberate acts of violence of other people. This excludes people that have died from causes such as famine, disease, flood, earthquakes etc. When we add the deaths pain and suffering from these it is clear to see (but who does) that this place where we all live is very ugly and evil.
The mistake that everyone makes when thinking about the universe and our existence as life forms in it is that only consider one of two probabilities. The scientific explanation (no external cause) or the religious explanation (God). If you put aside the puerile religious nonsense, you are left with two probabilities. It just all occurred because it did or it was designed and made/fabricated by a controlling unseen entity. If you have intelligence (understanding), the answer is obvious no matter how unpleasant that is.
Robert robert77@fsmail.net

Here is what came after I read Robert’s comment:
When caught in the illusion of self-identity and when functioning in split mind, the universe appears to be at odds with itself and conflict seems to exist. Prior to this subject-object functioning, in whole-mind if you will, it is SEEN that all is functioning as ONE and things are going along quite nicely and couldn’t be any other way. From this perspective, evolution or non-evolution is not relevant. All is now in this moment as it is and that’s the purpose.
Pure non-objectivity makes an object of itself and the universe appears as subject-object and all the pairs of opposites. It is all a dream of conceptuality, mind stuff, of quarks of mnemonic impressions in rapid succession until matter appears.
***********
I move.
Space becomes as a result of my movement.
Time is born as a measure of my movement in space.
I have objects because I have become the subject of space and time.
Dualism is established.
The universe appears.
I identify with my objects.
There are illusory egos.
I suffer illusorily.
*************
I rest.
Space vanishes.
Times ceases.
There are no objects because I am no longer a subject.
Dualism is no more.
The universe dissappears.
There are no illusory egos.
There is no suffering.
I am, but there is no me.
*************
God in this present instant: no concepts, form, attributes, dimension or extension in time. No thing at all, and yet, all things. Radiant emptiness.
NOW !

Tucson Bob, I think your dreaming. Robert is too. When your are dreaming, you don’t know that it was a dream until you wake up. Right now you think you are awake, everything seems real but it is not. When you wake up from reality you will be in Heaven. Mater does not exist. It exists only in your mind. Nothing is real. Mel Steffor

When Jesus came to see me in 2006, he had this to say about the meaning of First is Last and Last is First:
In the morning I go to Heaven. In the afternoon, I live my Life. In the evening I die, death.

Mel,
Maybe it was a dream that Jesus came to you in 2006? Or maybe it was the Flying Spagetti Monster in disguise: http://www.venganza.org/

Yes, Jesus did talk to me in a dream. He also talked to me during the day.
In 2007 God talked to me. He had this to say:
We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day.

Thanks for the link to the spagetti monster site. I found the artical ‘Cult take refuge in Cave’, funny. Now they don’t have to stay in a cave. God also told me that Judgment Day is February 22. He didn’t say what year. So they only need to spend Feb. 22 in the cave. The rest of the year they can spend on the surface. Besides God knows they are in the Cave. Like he can’t find them.

Dear Mel,
You said: “Yes, Jesus did talk to me in a dream.”
–What was it about Jesus in the dream that proved to you it was really Jesus and not just another dreamed figure? I am not asking this in a challenging way. Many people are convinced they are contacted in dreams. I am interested in how your experience manifested. Same for your contacts with God.
I have had some interesting dreams. Occasionally a beautiful, radiant, robed female figure appears, usually in a small temple-like structure at the end of a sparkling stone path that winds through a garden or meadow. I notice that although I feel I am walking on the path, I have no feet. Part of the robe shrouds her head, but her face is softly clear. She doesn’t say anything. In fact, her mouth and all features, while appearing classic in form, seem to be vestigial and non-functioning. Everything is conveyed through her light. I feel informed, soothed and refreshed by her presence. She conveys her name is Mary. If I were a Christian, no doubt I would think this is Mother Mary.
However, despite the vividness of this appearance, more so than anything in the waking state, I can’t say that this figure is anything but a projection of some aspect of my mind…a “higher aspect” of myself informing myself would be one way to put it.
This thought occurs to me: Why are her features classically caucasian as in a Greek sculpture? Why not african, asian, semitic, or other worldly? Is it because as a caucasian, this is my subconscious standard of beauty? I definitely have appreciated some beautiful africans, asians, etc.

Tucson . . . . . I would say that your dream was a good one. I rather enjoyed your dream. I am going to try to figure out the meaning of your dream. Interesting that you don’t have feet in the dream. My quess is you see the woman as a Mother figure. You don’t have feet because some how she is carrying you, holding or lifting you up. She speaks in light and not words. Now if this is a vivid dream and the garden with the temple is a real place that you know, it could be a dream from God.
My dream from God and Jesus was also a good dream, very vivid. It has been over a year since the dream and I remember it better than yesterday. Everything in the dream was symbolic and had a meaning that I could figure out. The first dream was about going to Heaven, God was in the dream. The second dream was about my life and or Christs life, I am alone. The third dream I was at the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, Jesus was in this dream. All of the dreams were vivid. That is how God told me the meaning of First is Last. All of the places in the dreams are real places, even you, anyone can go to the places in my dreams.

Now all of the people in my dreams are caucasian too. I am white is so are my friends, relatives and everyone around me. Wouldn’t it be funny if african, asian, semitic, and indians had all caucasians in their dreams too.
Jesus and God were both caucasians in my dreams. I think that is funny. Maybe Black people have a black God in their dreams.

Mel is not only “dreaming” but also apparently has delusions and fantasies about Jesus and heaven.
You are way out of your depth here Mel. And you are also on the verge of making an utter fool of yourself with your absurd religious fictions.
Do the rest of us all a big favor and leave your Jesus crap out of it.

Dear Mel,
Meaning no disrespect, after reading your dream description my impression is that you were simply dreaming and your dreams are merely reflecting your deeply held religious beliefs. I don’t think it was God or Jesus, but that is up to you. If you were a cat, the dreams may have been of chasing a particularly plump mouse and catching it.

Tucson . . . . I don’t expect any one to believe me. And I am not blogging to force people to believe my story. I am just putting in out on the Internet. God asked me to write and that is what I have been doing. I do have more proof. Volumns of proof. Gods message is on the net for all to see. You can Judge for yourself if the messages above are from God or not.

Tao . . . . Something gives me a feeling that you still haven’t come out of the closet about being a Christian. You have something to hide? Just a feeling. Maybe it was the way you said ‘Holy Crap’.

Mel,
Dreams, being purely subjective, aren’t provable to anyone. While your dreams may be sacred to you, to others they are just dreams. Since this blog is dedicated to the exploration of non-belief, expect to be challenged. You expose yourself to the risk of having your faith undermined. Others don’t value your experiences as you do.
Mind is very powerful and deceptive. We fool ourselves all the time. Information (phenomena) is filtered through our conditioning and beliefs. Muslims believe Mohammed speaks to them. Buddhists have dreams of Buddha imparting wisdom. A Christian would say they are being deceived. Buddhists and Muslims would say the Christian is being deceived. Maybe they are all being deceived by themselves.
It is scary to be be a mortal ego in the vastness of eternity. This is like being in a boat in an endless sea alone with no motor, sails or oars. We grasp something to give meaning and security in the midst of this seeming chaos and vulnerability. We want to believe, so we do believe even though deep down our reason and logic knows better. We believe that a certain motor, oars or set of sails will protect us and lead to our salvation. But in an endless sea there is no shore of salvation, no destination to be reached no matter how powerful the motor or how great the sails. Surrender to the sea. Be the sea and you will have no boundaries to be lost or gained. Let the imaginary drop of youself disappear into the vast water of infinity and be free. Free of the fear of mortality. Free of the confines of belief.
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

Hi Tucson, I went to your link and took this:
“54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true.” In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%.”
Now I don’t believe all of the bible is true. Part is Fact, Fable and anothe part is Fabricated. That is why God had a chat with me. He told me where parts are lies. Some one took First is Last and Last is First out of Revelation. Maybe cause they didn’t understand it.

Guys,
I just had a dream – I took a nap at work – Jesus talked to me in the dream!!!!! He told that me that he never talked to this fellow called Mel Steffor before (and that he does not like much conversing in dreams either).
“Houston (I think) we have a problem!”

Best Wishes Mel. Happy Thanksgiving to all:
check out the gratitude dance:
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=R9z2ELaBVJY

It appears that Mel is quite unfamiliar with others of us on this blog forum. Mel’s idea that I am religious or that I am a Christian shows just how warped this dude’s perceptions are. Not to mention the fact that, according to his testimony that he came here to present, Mel is suffering from serious delusions.
Here’s just a few samples:
“God asked me to write and that is what I have been doing.”
“I do have more proof. Volumns of proof. Gods message is on the net for all to see.”
“the messages above are from”
“Something gives me a feeling that you still haven’t come out of the closet about being a Christian.”
“have something to hide?”
“Maybe it was the way you said ‘Holy Crap’.”
So fyi Mel, I never said “Holy Crap”. I said: “Do the rest of us all a big favor and leave your Jesus crap out of it.”
So first get your basic facts straight before you go making ridiculous presumptions about where others are at. … But you have already made a fool of yourself here anyway with your ridiculously lame ‘conversations with God’ BS.
Like I said before, religious nuts like you are are way beyond your depth here. With all due respect, you can take your delusional God/Jesus/Christian/Bible crap and shove it.
This is blog is a place for the “Church-less”… not the Church-more who want to go around telling others like you do that ‘God talks to you’ and vice-versa.
Imo, you are just another god-damn religious lunatic, a pathetic moron who desires for others to think that you are godly.
This blog seems to attract nuts like you from time to time, but if you think that anyone here believes one iota your goofy garbage, then you are sorely mistaken.
But you are wasting your (and our) time here. Go find some Christian church goons or another site to preach your fantasies to. This is not some brainless Bible Blog.

Tucson . . . . Happy Thanksgiving. Thanks for the Hugs Link. You seem to be the nice one on this site. Nicer than Tao and Elepht. God also told me that Mike Douglas, Merv Griffin, Nancy Reagan, and Richard Dawkins go to Heaven. God said that Leona Helmsley goes to Hell. Now Jerry Falwell falls into a third catagory. Jerry does not go to Heaven and God does not want to torture him in Hell either. Jerry just disappears, he becomes Null.

What I found interesting is that Richard Dawkins, an Atheist goes to Heaven. God said that Richard is an embarrasment, yet God thinks of Richard as a pet. He is fond of Richard. So good Athiests go to Heaven.

God has decided to make an example of Leona. God gave her everything, beauty, opportunities, and then she married well. In return she thought of herself as a Queen. She was mean and ruthless in running her hotel. She would berate employees for the smallest things before she fired them. There are hundreds of such stories about her. Near the end of her life, Leona realized she was dying. She knew about Jesus and God. She asked God to forgive her for being so mean all of her life. God said it was the 11th hour. It was to late. He sent her to Hell.
Now I feel sorry for her. And I think she was set up to fail. But God could have given her a number of chances. I don’t know for sure. She could have had a previous life. God could have been thinking, just watch, she will be the same mean tyrant she was 500 years ago, 1000 years ago, and 3000 years ago.
Now Hell for Leona means that she is now Alone. She is independent and separated from the rest of us and God. She is not burning in a fiery place or being poked at. Being alone for eternity would be Hell for me. I want to be with others in Heaven. I enjoy other people.

Jerry Falwell. Well known TV evangelist. Jerry said he was a Christian yet he does not go to Heaven. I found that interesting, In the bible it says all you have to do is believe in Jesus. Now I don’t know much about Jerry, all I know is that he hated Gays. God must not agree with Jerry in a number of places. You can do your own research on Jerry to find out why he did not go to Heaven.

Tao . . . . . Now I am not into scareing people. But you said moron, religious lunatic, religious nut,etc. Do you talk to people like that all the time. I am not a bad person or a mean person. Then you think your smarter than I am. We all came out of the same gene pool. How did you get the smart genes? Smarty pants.
Mean Atheists will be Alone. Good atheists, like it or not go to Heaven.
Now I could be on Gods Left in Heaven. Could happen, I mean, God talked to me and not the Pope. You can repeat what you said above on Judgment Day. Or you can say your sorry. You will have my full attention.

Mel/Leona,
Are you kidding? If not, you are deranged. You have pushed me into Tao’s camp. Quit posting this madness and please see a competent therapist. Seriously.
For those who missed it, here is the gratitude dance. Appropriate for Thanksgiving or whenever. Shake out the madness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9z2ELaBVJY

FAO Tucson
Why don’you find out where this soul is , rather than being told, every person has a different idea and veiw of it, so i can’t generally say where this is in the human body it may vary!!! but iy’s important to know that one can feel it, as being one with the soul. there i s no end or beginning!! it just transforms it’s energy levels. Thats the reason why one has to move to a higher energy level than one present on this planet.
As i said it’s my knowing of the word COHESION it may appear to you different.
WHY should you Clarifiy to the readers,and say “as if anyone would be interested.” Let each reader voice there own opion on this and give their own a feed back, thats what this blog is all about , not one persons i.e your-summary!!
As a happy joyful free sprit i feel there is still roon in me to welcome more warmth of love and higher levels of pure engery which are being radiant in other universal planes.
LOVE AND PEACE TO ALL

LOVE and PEACE TO ALL SOULS.
I hope my answer was read by Tao and Tucsaon.
As afree sprit i hope they understand who i am and where i am going.
Thank you all for you feed back!!
LOVE and PEACE to ALL

The year was 1963 in Dallas, Texas. A shot rang out and a great president was assassinated. God sees everything. God said that the man that killed JFK was a policeman. The killer was hiding behind a tree on the same side of the road as John F. Kennedy drove toward him. What happens to the killer after he dies? Now Leona goes to Hell, she never killed anyone. Hell for Leona is just being alone. God did not tell me what Hell would be like for the killer of a great man like JFK. My guess it will be worse than what Leona got. Something very evil happened that day in November that sent a nation into morning. Now God also told me the name of the Killer. It wasn’t Oswald. Oswald was set up by the cops. The letters in the killers name are F. Ritter. I think that explains the pristine bullet. This will come out in the news for everyone to see. This information did not come in a dream. Jesus spent most of 2006 with me during the day. The only reason I know this is that it came from a divine source.

Toa and Tucson . . . . I already read your comments about seeing a Therapist. When all that you can do is call names, you have lost the debate. This is the end of my posts here. Bye, have a good life. Mel

Oh God!
“When all that you can do is call names, you have lost the debate”
From a person who evokes conversations with Jesus in dreams as source of information or postulates !!!!!
For example: “The only reason I know this is that it came from a divine source.”
Some people are just priceless …
My question is how can some people live with themselves? Look at themselves in the mirror before going to bed and their persona not be simply shattered by the weight of their own contradictions … Self-deception – instead of the force – must be very strong in some families …

Mel,
This obsession with celebrities and thinking god is telling you their fate in the afterlife is very troubling. I am afraid you will next think god is telling you to carry out his punishments and act on it. I am not trying to win a debate by name-calling. This is the same as my telling a person to see a doctor who was displaying symptoms of malaria or meningitis. You appear to be suffering from a delusional disorder. Get help from the best psychiatrist you can find.

To Mel,
You already “lost the debate” before you ever even came here. No one is interested in your immature christian religious preaching and other related nonsense. People are interested in meaningful discussion, not dim-witted religious dogma.

Hey Mel…
Guess what? … There is no doubt now and it is totally obvious to the rest of us that you’re definitely a real crazy bastard. This is troubling. You’ve got some real serious mental problems. Go and get some very needed professional help ASAP. Seriously. I am not joking.

Hey Edward, i don’t mean to be rude here, but please let me state something. The Bible is a book, true. ISN’T EVOLUTION FROM A BOOK TOO!!!Also, of course the Bible has an author! In fact, more than one author; and each of them had an experience with God. Evolution, on the other hand, was written by ONE man!
Evolution states that animals transformed into other animals. Yet not one fossil of transformation has been found!”
Darwin once said,”If any fossils showing transformation are not found in 100 years, then let my theory be cast aside.” Well it’s been over 100 years, and still there is no fossils!
This may be a shocker to you all, but here is the truth.
I STAND BY GOD!!

By the way, I have some stories for all atheists; and I say this with respect.
An atheists’ daughter was sick. He took her to the hospital, where she was near death. In his sorrow, the atheist cried out to God,”If you truly exist, save my daughter; and I will serve you for the rest of my life.” Next day, the daughter was healed! That man now is a Christian and works with the Gideons, a organization that puts Bibles in hotels, planes etc.
Another story comes from a doctor. She was an atheist. Of all the many things she did, she worked on dying children. But there was something interesting about this. Whenever a child died, they would like forward and state they saw a man. Then, they would describe the man as Jesus! They continued to say, “Don’t you see him?” until fell dead.
A third story, is not of one person, but of many. Men and women have constantly tried to prove God is not real. After their search, they come back as Christians. This has happened more than once.
My final story, is of an evolution professor taught evolution for many years, he even work a book on it! When he was finally shown the creation theory, he was upset that he had never been taught a theory other than evolution. He now is a Christian.

Tao, I would laos like to tell you something. You seem to be very angry with us Christians. But look, don’t think I hate you. My job, and every Christian’s job, is to defend their faith and grow in God. You may have other beliefs, but I respect you and other atheists. I may not agree with you, but I don’t wish to have hate between Atheists and Christians.

C,
“sticks and stones shall break my bones, but words shall never hurt me”
It would appear that Words can hurt. Internet words and sentences do bring about a type of hurt.

To “C”:
C said: “Evolution, on the other hand, was written by ONE man!”
— Incorrect. Evolution is not simply the idea of one man. Evolution is evident throught the species. It is an scientifically observable process….not just some collection of beliefs and myths as is the Bible. So you apparently have no education or understanding about evolution. Which is typical for so many unthinking religious believers who have nothing to show other than blind faith in a collection of fantasies and myths.
“Evolution states that animals transformed into other animals. Yet not one fossil of transformation has been found”
— No, not “tranformed”, but evolved. There is a big difference…. which you are obviously ignorant of.
“Well it’s been over 100 years, and still there is no fossils!”
— Wrong again.
“This may be a shocker to you all, but here is the truth. I STAND BY GOD!!”
— Merely words espousing blind faith and belief in an empty fantasy.
“By the way, I have some stories for all atheists; and I say this with respect.”
— Stories are just stories. Period. And respect for whom, for what? It is obvious that you have respect for absurd religious myths and illusions, but where is your respect for evidence, substance, fact, and truth?
“Tao, … You seem to be very angry with us Christians.”
— I am not angry at anyone. Many Christians are fine people. I just don’t share in their fantasies and illusions. I actually lived and literally walked all over the world in the life and way that Christ himself actually lived and taught, for over 16 years. You have no idea who you are talking to. I didn’t just talk a bunch of empty talk and go around touting some archaic book of words and myths (the Bible), and go running to some brainwashed, pretentious, and hypocritical Church as people like yourself tend to do. You have absolutely nothing to teach or show me. Not truth nor love. You don’t know what truth is, nor what love really is. You haven’t got any clue as to what the supposed Jesus actually taught and how he really lived. And so you certainly don’t live it yourself. If you did, then you would not be babbling a bunch of judgemental religious dogma at some supposed “atheists” like you are doing here.
“But look, don’t think I hate you. My job, and every Christian’s job, is to defend their faith and grow in God.”
— Sorry to inform you, but that’s NOT what Jesus taught or lived. Jesus did NOT teach to “defend” anything, nor did he teach to “grow”. He simply taught how to LIVE in the Light… he did not teach any or all of the bullshit that pretentious religious people like you manufacture in order to justify your egos and your false religious dogmas and your holier-than-thouness.
“You may have other beliefs, but I respect you and other atheists.”
— I DO NOT have any “beliefs”, and I am NOT an atheist. I do not need beliefs. I have no use for beliefs. Therefore, I do not believe or not believe in God. But brainwashed people like you cannot comprehend that. But hopefully you will eventually awaken to reality and align with the the truth and the Light.
“I don’t wish to have hate between Atheists and Christians.”
— Then stop calling people atheists, and stop isolating yourself as a Christian, and stop assuming that you have the truth and God is on your side or vice versa, when in fact you don’t. If you don’t wish to see hatred and manifest it as you yourself are doing, then get beyond the false duality of Christian versus Atheist, and just be truly humble and receptive to the truth and the higher Light.

To Tao,
You’re right, I’m not a genius when it comes to evolution. But I have just found a piece of evidence that I would like you to respond to.
Evolution states that animals transformed into other animals. The only way that could happen is for the DNA to change. But yesterday I learned that if the DNA is scrambled, the person or thing dies!

C, I reccomend that you watch The Salamnder’s Tale at the following link: it may clear up certain misconceptions about evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCbUBlJzkVk
Failing this, I reccomend that you buy The Blind Watchmaker or The Ancestor’s Tales by Richard Dawkins, or Cosmos or Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan. You will gain a greater understanding of what the theory of evolution actually is by reading any or all of these books.

Thanks for the link, but does anybody have an argument for what I said about the DNA being scrambled?

C,
Don’t forget, a theory is only a theory. A theory is not a KNOWN FACT.
When you read something that claims to be a theory, then all you should claim to know is something that is theoretical.
Example of a Known Fact: the word “receive” is not spelled recieve.

By the way guys, I only ask these questions because I would like to know what you guys think.
But that DNA thing is not a theory. It’s in my friends’ science book. (We’re homeschooled)

C, I’m not expert on DNA and mutations, but a little Google research taught me that “scrambling” isn’t an accurate description of a mutation.
There are different types of mutations. Some are akin to changing just one letter in a sentence. Others do scramble the meaning of a sentence. See:
http://www.genetichealth.com/G101_Changes_in_DNA.shtml
For sure, a mutation doesn’t mean the death of the organism. Changes in DNA are happening constantly. The web page above points out that everyone has DNA changes during their life.
If those mutations meant death, there would be no humans.
Regarding transitional fossils, lots of them have been found. This is one reason why evolution is so well supported by evidence. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils
Just ran across this new evidence today:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/fossil_snake_with_legs.php
I suspect you believe in God. I’d like to suggest that you also believe in the reality of God’s creation. To deny the facts of the creation while believing in the creator strikes me as an insincere belief.
You’re trying to tell God how the creation should have been created. Really, that’s blasphemy. Science does its best to find out how creation actually occurred, which makes science more spiritual than fundamentalist religion.

Brian, I’m not trying to tell God how to make the universe! I love the universe, God make it perfect. Except when us humas sinned, that’s when imperfection came. I believe God exists, he created the universe, and that he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross.

May I ask a question though? I’ve always wondered this…what do atheists believe will happen to them after they die?

And by the way Roger, everything is a theory! Christianity & even evolution are theories! We may get a bunch of evidence for both points, it’s all a theory.

C,
‘And by the way Roger, everything is a theory! Christianity & even evolution are theories! We may get a bunch of evidence for both points, it’s all a theory.’
Excellant point…….I sure do agree….

C and Roger: some notions are supported by evidence. That earns them the right to be called “theories.” Like, the Theory of Evolution, the Theory of Relativity.
Others aren’t supported by evidence. Like the notion that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected. So it isn’t correct to say that all theories are the same.
This is from the National Academy of Sciences:
“Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature that is supported by many facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

Well, you’re right in saying there’s no proof of Jesus’ ressurection…but there is proof he existed.
But what I don’t understand is how evolutionists can think all this came out from an explosion! Look at the earth, look at water, look at the atmosphere and all of nature! From what I see, none of this stuff could have happened from a big bang? Another thing is, if this explosion happened once, why hasn’t it happened again? Why has there never been another big bang that creates plants or life?
How does evolution state water came? Water contains hydrogen and oxygen. Yet, when you put those two gases together, you don’t get water.
Also, this thing about them finding fossils that proves evolution is wrong! Scientists have not found ONE fossil that shows the stages of evolution. If could take a fish’s head, then a duck’s head, then a alligator’s head and put them together; and claim that the fish evolved into a duck, then an alligator!

To C,
In my opinion, the theory of evolution does not undermine the credibility of the Christian teachings as much as Christians who deny the viability of evolution.
In other words, I don’t have a problem reconciling evolution with Christ’s teachings, but when I see a Christian trying to undermine evolution with misleading or incorrect information, I start to wonder if there is something amiss in the Christian belief system.
The Christian beliefs can stand on their own merits, I think, but trying to tear down science only weakens that stand.

I absolutely agree with Mysti on this. And especially with regard to the goofy religious nonsense and incorrect information that has been espoused by C recently.

This is my last post. All I would like is a response to what I presented in my last posting.
Mysti, I don’t agree iwht evolution, but I believe it should be taught AS A THEORY, not a fact; but remember, the teaching of God is also a theory. Also, evolution should be taught not as “If you don’t agree with this you’re stupid.” I believe students should be able to argue against and choose which theory they believe, Creation or Evolution.
That’s all I wanted to say, and I’m waiting for a response to what I stated in my last posting.
Thank you.

C,
I wasn’t aware that Evolution was being taught as a fact. Do you have an example of a school that teaches that way?
Teaching something about GOD is ok. Nothing wrong in believing in GOD.
I think, I got the impression from one of your comments that all Atheist hate GOD and Christians. Again, I am not aware of this.
Never heard of anyone that stated, “They hate GOD and Christians.” How did you learn this?
Again…..No big Deal…..

C, I’m sure you realize that science isn’t based on beliefs, but on facts. Students can believe whatever they want, religiously, but you’re heading for a failing grade if you tell the teacher, “I don’t believe in atoms; I believe that little green men are the foundation of matter and energy.”
Same thing with how life came to be, and changed, on earth. Or how the universe evolved. Facts, facts, facts. Not beliefs, beliefs, beliefs.

C wrote: “there’s no proof of Jesus’ ressurection…but there is proof he existed.”
— Please provide that proof that Jesus existed. If you are going to say that there is proof, then lets see it. On the other hand…
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum
C wrote: “what I don’t understand is how evolutionists can think all this came out from an explosion!”
— Then go take a good look at the scientific theory, astrophysics and so on such as the big bang etc. You sound like someone who has no knowledge of that which you are actually questioning. If you don’t understand the big bang theory, then just go do some basic study and research about it instead of just ignorantly saying “I don’t understand…how…all this came out from an explosion”.
C writes: “Look at the earth… From what I see, none of this stuff could have happened from a big bang?”
— Again, if you don’t “see”, and you don’t understand, then just go study the basics of the theory, instead of asking such a dumb question on a blog such as this.
C wrote: “Another thing is, if this explosion happened once, why hasn’t it happened again?”
— Well first of all, you don’t seem to even understand the basic theory. So maybe if you had a minimal grasp on the basics of the big bang theory, then you would know why. You can go get that information on your own.
C wrote: Why has there never been another big bang that creates plants or life?
— Now it has become really evident that you are ignorant. The big bang has nothing directly to do with creating plants etc. It has to do with the origin of energy, matter, stars, time and space. Why don’t you just go study the bing bang theory instead of asking such stupid questions.
C wrote: “How does evolution state water came? Water contains hydrogen and oxygen. Yet, when you put those two gases together, you don’t get water.”
— The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the elements hydrogen and oxygen combining to produce water. Evolution has to do with the evolution of the species. Just go back and study the theory of evolution instead of asking these dumb-ass questions.
C wrote: “this thing about them finding fossils that proves evolution is wrong! Scientists have not found ONE fossil that shows the stages of evolution.”
— Now you are really proving how utterly ignorant and stupid you are. Did you even graduate from high school? In light of all that you have said, I cannot see how you possibly could have.
C wrote: “If could take a fish’s head, then a duck’s head, then a alligator’s head and put them together; and claim that the fish evolved into a duck, then an alligator!”
— You are worse than stupid. Need I say any more?

Hey Brian, I like that saying! —
“Facts, facts, facts. Not beliefs, beliefs, beliefs.”
Maybe you should enshrine that motto up somehwere on the site in blinking neon lights. Seriously :o)

Roger said:
*Don’t forget, a theory is only a theory. A theory is not a KNOWN FACT.*
A theory is developed from known facts: it then becomes a question of which theory is more rational.
For example, the temporary appearance of rainbows in the sky is an observable fact; ancient Hebrews theorised that it was a message from God saying he wouldn’t flood the earth (again:how nice of him-oh wait, it’s brimstone and fire next time).
Had the ancient Hebrews had access to the knowledge of sunlight refraction through raindrops as the cause of rainboes they probably wouldn’t have developed the theory that God was talking to them.
Similarly, had the ancient Hebrews known about intersex human beings they wouldn’t have theorised that human beings are made male and female only and we wouldn’t be plagued with all that “God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve” nonsense as it is now observable that life is far more varied than our ancestors knew.

Helen,
I stand corrected, in my initial rush to write a comment. Thanks for your comment.
The Rain Bow, found in the sky, is Something that one can observe. It is there. The method that one can use to observe it or measure it can change. Therefore, the theory that one formulates to describe it can change. A theory is not always a constant. The content of a theory can change through time.
Where is the Absolute totally nonchangeable explanation of Something. I think that is what we all really want. The absolute truth of something and everything.
A religiously derived theory or scientifically derived theory is ok. I just want something Absolute. In the mean time, theory is theory……..nothing wrong with theory…

Thank you kindly tao, Roger Helen and Brian. I am not being sarcastic, I just wanted to know what your arguements were. Tao, I am studying the big bang theory and evolution. I pray you have a good, long life. Same to you all. Thank you again.
And by the way tao, if you tell me to study evolution and the big bang (which I am), I encourage you to look up evidence proving Jesus’ existence. If you watched the whole Atheists vs Christians debate, you’ll find a man who has researched Jesus and has found evidence for his existence.

C,
I don’t care whether or not you study evolution or the big bang. I just think you ought to know more about what it is that you disagree with.
As for the existence of Jesus, I could not care less. I have absolutely no interest in some supposed guy who may have existed (but more likely did not), and even if he really did exist, he was just some guy who has been dead for 2000 years. I am interested in the living, not the dead. Jesus is nothing and no one to me. And the Jesus that people now believe in, is a religious myth and an illusion. I have no use for such illusions. My own very real life is enough for me. People who believe in Jesus are deluded, insecure, immature, and foolish, imo.
So thanks… but NO thanks.

Alright then, I respect your thoughts. Yes, I do have much to learn about evolution and the big bang. Well anyway, this is my last post. All I ask is for you to respect my faith just as I respect your thoughts.
Thank you and have a good day.

By the way Tao, here’s a few deluded, insecure, foolish, immature people who believed in Jesus. These people also believed in God and believed he created the universe.
Isaac Newton
Louis Pasteur
Leonardo da Vinci
George Washington Carver
Joseph Lister
Samuel F.B. Morse
Adam Sedqwick (Friend of Charles Darwin)
John Ambrose Fleming
Charles Stine (organic chemist)
Douglas Dewar (former evolutionist)
These are only some of the many “immature, foolish,deluded, insecure men.”

C,
It appears that, and I conclude that you really did not comprehend or understand my previous message to you at all.
I don’t respect anyone’s faith, even if you say that you “respect” my “thoughts” as you have. I just don’t have any respect for blind faith. That’s just the way I am. So don’t ask me or expect me to “respect” your faith. Because I don’t. I just don’t.
You are probably a very nice person, and I have nothing against you. But don’t ask me to respect your faith when I do not, and I cannot. Your “faith” is your own personal choice… but it’s not MY choice. I do not operate on blind faith, and so this blind “faith” means nothing to me. It is an illusion imo. So therfore, why should I or why would I need to respect other people’s illusions, or their faith in illusions?
You can certainly believe in whatever illusions or realities that you choose to believe in, but don’t ask me to believe in them, to have faith in them, or to “respect” them.
I choose not operate on beliefs or faith. Beliefs have no place or value in my life. And I so don’t need any faith in such beliefs either. So therfore, don’t ask me to value your beliefs, your faith. Don’t ask me to “respect” something, or your faith in something, which I do not believe in and which is an illusion to me.
I only value my own direct experience and established proven facts, not mere beliefs and blind faith.
This is one of the big problems that I see with most Christians like yourself. You go around expecting that the rest of the world should believe as you do, and/or that they should “respect” your beliefs and your blind faith. But life just does not work that way. Why should I respect things which, to me, are nothing more than useless fantasies, myths, or illusions? Why should I respect faith in beliefs or illusions? I don’t. So don’t ask me to do so. And I also don’t care whether or not you agree with me or with my views. I don’t care if you don’t respect my views. My views are derived from direct experience and proven facts, not beliefs, so it doesn’t matter to me that you don’t see things my way. I am secure in my own direct experience and truth. But you on the other hand, because you are fundamentally insecure – because you have no direct experience, you desire for people to believe as you do and to respect your faith in those beliefs, so that you can then feel more secure and validated in your beliefs and blind faith. Thats the difference between you and I.
Sure, I could play along with your game like you want me to and say “OK I respect your beliefs and your faith”, BUT I would not be honest if I did that. I don’t respect blind faith. So I am not going to pretend that I do. To me, resorting to blind faith is not intelligent, it is weak and insecure, and so it makes no sense to me. I would ratrher have no faith, than to believe in illusions.
I am oriented altogether towards direct experience and awareness, and NOT towards any kind of spiritual or religious beliefs, blind faith, or any savior figures such as you are.
I hope I have made myself crystal clear to you (and any other readers) on this particular issue and these points.
Now as for your other post listing various notable God & Jesus believers, I will again state that, imo, anyone having belief and blind faith in myths and illusions is indeed insecure, foolish, deluded, and immature…. I don’t care who they were. The people that you list may have made various important contributions to scientific knowledge, and that is certainly to their credit, but that does not change what I said at length above about people choosing to resort to blind faith and religion beliefs in order to feel secure in life. Those people could have just as easily done without their belief and faith in “Jesus” as you say they had. Having belief and blind faith does not change the truth, does not change reality one iota… it just makes people feel better for awhile. So you have proven nothing by listing these people, and trying to use them to vaidate your own blind faith and childish need to have a savior figure.
This kind of honesty and may likely be way too much for you to integrate at this point and this stage in your development. But hopefully someday you will begin to understand. Until then, have a nice life… and a nice fantasy.

Tao,
Alright, that’s okay with me. I’m glad your honest, I would rather have you being honest. Also, I too have absolutely NOTHING against you. I wasn’t here to fight, or to hate, I was just here to see what other people think, that’s all. I hope you have a good life. I am actually glad I met you.

“I am oriented altogether towards direct experience and awareness”
The above statement should be at the core of one’s purpose. Pure and simple.

I think Tao must be a child. Lacks any sort of logic, or reason and has an abusive personality. He shouldn’t blog about something as complex as creation or evolution until he gains knowlegde in these areas. TAO, grow up.

Tucson,
To some your dream might appear to be from God. Only Catholics have visions of Mary because they worship her, like she is a God. Your dream clearly is not from God. I only tired to make sense out of it to make friendly conversation. A dream from God is Vivid, you will clearly remember the dream years later. Your dream has not meaning. Last, a dream from God has meaning, meaning meanings, and it is complex. If people don’t have feet in a dream, it is clearly just a dream and nothing more. There is one more thing that clearly marks a dream from God and a dream that is just a dream. Know what, I your worthy of knowing what that is. You don’t know how discuss anything without calling names. You call people names cause your just frustated.

I should have reread that before I posted. What I meant to say, Tucson, is that your not worthy of knowning what that is. God will never talk to someone that has an attitude like your do.

“God will never talk to someone that has an attitude like your do.”
—I’m still fascinated as to what God’s voice sounds like when he/she is talking.
Mel,
When God does talk, I’ve been told that he sounds much like Bing Crosby. Is this true?

Roger,
That was funny, Bing Crosby. Did you make that up or did you pick that up somewhere?

And Yes, God could sound like Bing Crosby. God does not have a loud booming voice like some people think. Mel

Dear Guys,
I’m back. Yes, I know I said I wouldn’t be back, but I still have more questions. I may not agree with you guys, but I will listen to your arguements. I want to know more about what atheists think because I’ve been thinking about it. Below are 3 questions that I would like answered. Remember, I am here to listen and discuss, not to fight.
1. Why do you not believe Jesus existed?
2. Please give your evidence on why Jesus didn’t exist.
3. If you believe Jesus once lived but is not the Son of God, please explain why.
That’s all guys. I hope you’ll respond so I may learn more about other beliefs. Thanks.
Sincerely,
C
P.S. I would very much like it if Tao and Roger would also respond to this. Thank you.

One other thing,
1. Please also state why you think Jesus did NOT raise from the dead.

C,
Ask yourself: What PROVES Jesus existed, was the son of god, or rose from the dead?
Something to think about:
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

C, Arthur is right. You’re mistaking the principle of proof. It requires positive evidence. I could just as well ask you to prove that unicorns aren’t prancing in my yard right now or that Santa Claus doesn’t exist. What is your evidence that unicorns or Santa Claus don’t exist?
I also could ask you equally valid questions:
Why don’t you believe Buddha (or Mohammad, or Krishna, or Lao Tzu, or a host of other sages, some of whom are considered to be “sons of God”) existed? Why don’t you believe these are worthy of our worship?
I see no conclusive evidence that Jesus existed, and no solid evidence at all that he is who Christians believe him to be. It’s all hearsay, words written long after his death.
Are you aware that there are quite a few people alive today who are considered to be God in human form? Please supply your evidence for why you don’t believe in them. I have my own, but the questions you raised imply that you wouldn’t mind being asked the same ones.
There are countless religions, countless supposed prophets and messengers of God. Are you able to give reasons for why you don’t accept them? No. You’re drawn to a particular religion, and a particular prophet/messenger, for reasons that aren’t logical or demonstrable.
This is fine. But I object to those who try to elevate subjective belief into objective truth. Jesus isn’t truth. He’s a belief.

Arthur,
First of all, that didn’t answer any of my questions I posted.
Secondly, I saw the article on prayer. The man claims that God will ALWAYS say yes to prayer. In fact, if he would like deeper into the Bible, he would find that God says, “Yes” sometimes, and other times he says, “No.” Other times he just says, “Wait.” If you look at some of my first posts midway through this page, you’ll see a story of a man who prayed and was answered.

Now hold on Brian. I posted those questions for answers. I didn’t post them to anger you guys. Again, all I want to know is what your beliefs are.
Next, who ever said I don’t believe Buddha, Mohammad, and those other people you listed, existed? I believe they existed, they’re historical figures! But they taught untrue doctrines, that’s why I don’t believe in them.
Another thing, you’re not answering my questions. All you did in that last post was attack me. The ONLY reason I posted those questions was to hear your logical evidence to answer those 3 questions.
I hope I’ve straightened everything out now.

C, you haven’t straightened anything out. You’re just playing games. That’s how I see religion: as a game. So it doesn’t surprise me that you’d try to play the belief/faith card, and get disturbed when I and others do the same thing.
If you ask an unanswerable or unreasonable question, don’t be surprised if it is thrown back at you.
Like I said, proving the non-existence of something isn’t possible. Or at least, virtually impossible. It depends on the nature of the thing. I can tell you that I’m certain there isn’t an elephant under my desk, because I just looked.
Nope, no elephant there. But how am I supposed to prove that Jesus didn’t exist 2000 years ago, or that Jesus didn’t rise from the dead back then?
I don’t have to. You, as a Christian, need to provide the evidence. Then I’ll consider it and make a decision about whether it’s credible.
By the way, I don’t believe that some of the people I listed existed. Krishna and Lao Tzu, for sure. Buddha, maybe. So you shouldn’t be so sure of yourself here, either. It’s pretty certain that Lao Tzu wasn’t an actual person who wrote the Tao Te Ching, but mythology ascribes this writing to him.
With Jesus, we don’t even have that. He didn’t write anything. We just have stories, myths, written down many years after the fact.

C,
How do you know Mohammed and company taught untrue doctrines while Jesus taught the true doctrine? If you are honest with yourself, you will know that it is because of your cultural conditioning that you believe this. There are muslims who would say the same thing about Mohammed you say about Christ. And btw, I am not an atheist. Lastly, Brian’s point about positive proof is right. Why would you base your entire reality and hope for salvation on something you can’t prove? On a fantasy that has been handed down for generations? Try dropping the whole thing tomorrow, just as an experiment. You’ll be fine, I promise.

Brian,
Alright, but before I list my evidence, I want to make something clear. Though I can prove he existed, I can’t prove he is the Son of God with physical evidence.
Cornelius Tacitus: Cornelius was a Roman historian and has been named the greatest Roman historian. In one of his histories, he not only writes that a man named Jesus was executed by Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar, he actually describes the death of Jesus! Now he could have made this all up if he believed in Jesus. But, in the same paragraph where he describes Jesus death, he attacks Christianity and calls it ridiculous. Why would he write about a mythical man and still hate Jesus’ religion? It’s simple, though he didn’t like Jesus he wrote about him because he couldn’t betray history.
Thallus and Phlegon: Both were ancient historians and DESCRIBED the land going dark when Jesus was crucified. That means they were present at his death and saw him!
Josephus: A Jewish historian who described Jesus as a wise man, and also stated that Jesus was killed and rose from the dead.
There you have. No Bible proof but proof from historians even outside the Christian faith.

Note: Most of that information comes from http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com

Adam,
Christianity is not a cultural condition. According to Usborne Encyclopedia on Religion, there are 1 billion Christians in the world. There are Christians not just in America, but in Europe, Central America, Australia, South America and other places. It is not a culutural religion.
As for the the statement about believing in Jesus when I have no proof. The only proof that I can base my faith on is the fact that God says we believe in him by faith, and faith alone. Atheists (I’m not talking about you Adam) may attack me, but Atheists also must have faith in their theory of evolution. IT’S a THEORY, NOT A PROVEN FACT! Therefore, it takes faith to believe in that theory, just as it takes faith for a Christian to believe in God, a Muslim to believe in Allah a Daoist to believe in Yin and Yang etc.
The truth of the matter is, nobody knows everything about this world. I don’t know everything, YOU GUYS don’t know everything, NOBODY knows everything. But what I know, that I know, that I know, THAT I KNOW is that MY GOD LIVES AND THAT NO ONE CAN TAKE AWAY THE PEACE AND JOY I HAVE BY FOLLOWING HIM. As Martin Luther once said as he stood before the Council of Wurms “HERE I STAND! GOD HELP!”
Please do not call me close-minded for I am not. I gladly listen to all your posts, and I read with interest. I may disagree, but I still want to learn other theories. But from what I’ve seen, nothing can take the place of the loving, merciful, perfect God I feel as I write these very words. It is by Him, and Him alone that I find strength to go through life. And the love I feel is indescribable.
As written in the song “In Christ Alone”, these words are true for me and every body else.
In Christ alone my hope is found;
He is my light, my strength, my song;

C said: “If you look at some of my first posts midway through this page, you’ll see a story of a man who prayed and was answered.”
Response: A farmer prays to Jesus for a good crop. No rains. Bad crop. He figured Jesus didn’t want him to have a good crop.
The next year he again prays to Jesus for a good crop. This time it rains and his crop is good. He thanks Jesus for this.
How does either scenario prove Jesus had anything to do with them?
C wrote: “I don’t believe Buddha, Mohammad, and those other people you listed, existed? I believe they existed, they’re historical figures! But they taught untrue doctrines,”
Response: How do you know their doctrines are untrue? How do you know Jesus’ doctrine is true as opposed to theirs?
You are not being attacked by the various commenters here. You are being challenged to think logically.
Let’s cut to the chase. If you are honest with yourself, you will admit that you do not KNOW Jesus was the son of God, answers your prayers, etc. You simply BELIEVE this. That’s OK. Just be clear that it is a belief, your faith, and not a fact.
There is nothing you can do to prove the validity of Jesus and nothing I can do to prove his invalidity.
You choose to believe. I do not.

C,
Let me be clear about two things. 1) you write:
“Christianity is not a cultural condition. According to Usborne Encyclopedia on Religion, there are 1 billion Christians in the world. There are Christians not just in America, but in Europe, Central America, Australia, South America and other places. It is not a culutural religion.”
The fact that it is practiced worldwide doesn’t make it any less of a cultural condition. Christianity has a long, and often bloody history of missionary conquest, crusades, etc. Christianity did not simply spontaneously sprout up. Just because Coca-Cola is consumed all over the world does not make it any less manufactured.
Point 2: You write about the peace and joy you get from Christ. I do not wish to take this peace and joy away from you at all, but instead wish to argue with you and claim that this feeling is not dependent on your belief, but is more an inherent part f the very core of who you are. Next time you feel like this, explore where your attention is, how still your mind is, what kind of thoughts you have had. Perhaps thinking of Christ fills you with loving thoughts, but I believe that those same loving intentions, without the storyline of Christ would give you a similar feeling. Perhaps you cannot really hear this after years and years of repeating to yourself that Christ is your savior.

Adam,
Question: How do you know Jesus’ doctrines are true?
Response: Because Jesus is the Son of God. There’s my answer, plain and simple.
I would also just want to make it clear that I’m not forcing this religion onto you. I’m merely showing what I believe.
One thing I’d like to hear you admit is that evolution and the big bang are theories, they are not facts, and that it takes just as much faith to believe in that as it takes for me to believe in Christ. If you have a different view point, please post it. You may choose to believe it, that’s your choice, but what I want to know is whether or not you believe what I’ve said above about evolution and the big bang.

By the way everybody, I suggest you all read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. In that book there’re answers to your questions on Jesus’ existence and resurrection.

C,
“Why do you not believe Jesus existed?”
—never said I didn’t. Belief is Belief.
“Please give your evidence on why Jesus didn’t exist.”
—never stated that I have evidence that Jesus didn’t exist.
“If you believe Jesus once lived but is not the Son of God, please explain why.”
—Belief that Jesus lived and is the Son of God is ok. Again belief is belief.
“One thing I’d like to hear you admit is that evolution and the big bang are theories, they are not facts, and that it takes just as much faith to believe in that as it takes for me to believe in Christ.”
—Evolution and Big Bang are theories. Both theories are interesting, nothing more.
My question,
What does “C” stand for?

I wish tAo were still around…
C writes:
“Question: How do you know Jesus’ doctrines are true?
Response: Because Jesus is the Son of God. There’s my answer, plain and simple.”
C, you may write, say, or believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Perhaps you even believe he is the “only begotten Son of God.” That is a belief, as Roger points out. But there is no way you can know that for sure.
Let us back up a little bit.
If you are able to, please define the term “Son of God.” Then please describe on what basis (besides your belief) that you know Jesus was said “Son of God.” Please do not say “because it says in the Bible.” I want real evidence. Perhaps you cannot give it, and maybe you still wish to believe in this concept. Fine, but at least you must admit it is only a belief and a concept, as Roger points out, nothing more.
Lastly. why do you assume I care about the evolution vs. creationism debate? I don’t care in the least about this debate. Creationists care much more deeply about this, because their salvation depends upon proving evolution wrong. I have a more open approach–if the evidence points towards evolution, I tend to believe it, until the evidence points another direction. I don’t have an emotional or spiritual investment in how long the earth has been here.

Roger,
I’ll now withraw all the questions I wrote on my first post.
Question: What does C stand for?
Answer: I stand for truth.
Adam,
Yes, I too wish tao was around. Also, your question about
“Give me proof Jesus is the Son of God without stating ‘It’s in the Bible” is hard to answer. It’s like an evolutionist having to prove evolution without using Darwin’s books.
I believe the Bible is true, especially the 4 gospels. These men couldn’t have made up this story, for if they did why did they die for it if they knew it was false?

C,
so here we arrive. Your belief in Christ is clearly based on your belief that the Bible is true. This is where you and I differ.
Also, you didn’t answer my question asking you to define “Son of God.”
Let me also offer that while I may find many of Jesus’ ideas ad teachings, as they are presented in the Bible, to be wonderful suggestions for how to live, as a Buddhist might say, skillfully and humanely, where I become annoyed with religious people is the assertion that this teaching is exclusive and that one must accept it to be saved.
Don’t you think if God exists, he/she/it must be more timeless than the bible and Christ? Imagine a human waking up on the earth in a culture, like an Amazon tribe, where there’s little or no chance, nor any need to hear the teachings of Christ. Their society functions just fine without these teachings. Would you really say that contact with the Bible—a book with words in it–is necessary for such a person to find a connection to god?

C,
–What does C, the letter, stand for? Clark or Cliff?
–Does, “I believe and I know” have the same meaning?
–What happened to Tucson? I miss Tao too.
“Answer: I stand for truth.”
–what’s wrong with sitting down for the truth? Try it, you will love it.
“But what I know, that I know, that I know, THAT I KNOW is that MY GOD LIVES AND THAT NO ONE CAN TAKE AWAY THE PEACE AND JOY I HAVE BY FOLLOWING HIM.”
—Who is trying to take away your peace and joy?
I think you should keep what is yours.

So…
Three months ago, C “interrupted” and posted something to the attention of Edward. I just read that, and the rest of the posts here. (Did you see that Leona Helmsley posted something? WOW!)
I just wanted to thank all of you for being Edward while I was distracted. I think that everything that was written reflects what Edward thinks pretty precisely. Excellent exercise!
One very surprising thing that I found was that there is an assumption going around that people can actualy exist without having an experience of “God,” (you know what I mean: source, life, spirit, higher power, etc.) That does not seem possible, in the sense that everything is, um, everything.
Well, tally-ho.

Well said Edward. I hope they (you) get it, including me.

C, you betray an ignorance about how science works and what a “theory” is. There’s a huge amount of evidence that supports the big bang and evolution theories.
Way more, way way more, than supports the theory that Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins.
In science, nothing is certain. But some things are more certain than others, depending on how much evidence there is for them.
There’s a whole lot of experimental, observational, and theoretical evidence in support of the idea that our universe began with a big bang, and that life on earth has come to be as it is through evolution.
Those are facts. I respect your faith in Jesus. You need to similarly respect the facts of science.

Brian,
I just want to first start off by thanking you for respecting my faith in Jesus. Please forgive if I’ve sounded rude, it’s just that I’ve been thinking whether or not you guys (don’t take this the wrong way) would respond to me like tao use to do. However, you are very different from tao. Once again, I tip my hat of to you.
Now let me just tell you right now that though I may not believe in evolution, doesn’t mean I wish it to be banned. I respect your thoughts and ideas just as much as you respect mine. I’m sorry if in my last posts I’ve sounded like I never want to hear about evolution. On the opposite, I believe learning both sides of a story is great.
I also understand what a theory is, even God is a theory.
Just to close, could you please just show me the tons of evidence evolution has? I’m not asking this sarcastically, I’d just like to see the evidence that you speak of and that I’ve never heard. Thanks.
P.S. Please don’t send me links, not that I’m being ignorant. I just like hearing it better from learned people like yourself.

Hi there my friends. Just popping in for a brief moment… mostly because I just got a message on my psychic hot-line that I was being paged by some of my uhh admirers out here in blog-land.
I hope you all are doing well and keeping up the faith of un-faith.
Anyhow, after purusing the various comments above, especially the same old religious bullshit game being played by C, I must say that on issues such as these, I have less than no interest at all.
In other words, why should I give a damn about the utter foolishness of some fictious character that was purported to have made a minor ruckus in the primitive society of Palestine some 2000 fucking years ago?
I mean seriously y’all, wake up and get real. Your own unique and glorious life is all happening RIGHT NOW… so to hell with some supposed Biblical character who cannot even be proven to exist and nothing to do with your living YOUR OWN unique present life.
My life is happening right here and right now, so why should I waste even a moment thinking and/or believing in some ridiculous 2000 year old character who is likely merely a religious myth?
Whether the man now referred to as “Jesus” actually once existed or not, has absolutely nothing to do with my own very real and present existence. And even if that guy did actually live at one time thousands of years ago, who the hell even cares?
Billions and billions of people have come and gone over the millenia. None of them have anything to do with my own life here and now… except maybe for the few who discovered or invented things and technology which makes my present life easier and better and healthier.
So it’s simply ridiculous to waste any time at all thinking or speculating about some one infintesimal little guy that cannnot be proven to have ever even existd, and/or who has done absoultely nothing to make my own present and very real life, any better.
So what’s the friggin point? The entire issue is incredibly stupid. If people wish to foolishly believe in some guy who supposedly wandered around in the dust of primitive Palestine thousands of years ago, then that’s their problem. I hope they wake up before they waste the rest of their precious lives believing and babbling about religious nonsense.
I feel sorry for such foolish people. But thats life you know – survival of the fittest and all. If someone is so stupid as to make their real life revolve around some ridiculous myth, some character who has done and added absoultely to the quality of their lives, then that’s really sad.
So I feel sorry for such misguided folks like C. My advice to everyone is not to waste time speculating about all that Jesus jive.
Anyhow… thats all for now folks. I’ve got to get back to my own life divine. So please don’t ask me any questions, as I won’t be around to answer them.

C,
Here’s a link. No proof. Just evidence. A piece of the puzzle:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080709/sc_nm/fish_fossils_dc

Arthur,
Thank you for the link.

In this post, I will adress tao’s post and explain what I think of it.
I would first of all like to point out that tao sounds like a CLOSE MINDED PERSON! I’m not calling anybody else close minded, but tao sounds like one. Allow me to explain. I’m not calling him close minded because he doesn’t believe in God or Jesus. That’s his choice, he has freewill to choose what he believes in. But what’s wrong for him to say is that Jesus never existed and yet refuses to learn Jesus’ story and look up the evidence. If he knew the story and had the evidence, THEN he could rebut the existence of Jesus. But if he doesn’t know the story then he shouldn’t rebut it until he learns more about it. Now don’t use that last sentence against me, I rebut evolution but I want to learn about it. I am not attacking his beliefs, again, he can believe whatever he wants to believe. But it is ignorant to say, “I don’t believe in him so I won’t learn about him. But I’ll still say he’s a myth.” That’s like me saying, “I don’t believe in evolution, so I’ll just ignore it and not study it. But I will continue to disapprove it and say it’s false.”
It is further wrong for him to attack people for their thoughts. Am I hear to attack your thoughts arthur, brian, tao and everbody else? No! I’m here to learn both sides of the argument of creation and the existence of God. I’m also here to learn what atheists think. THAT’S IT! It is wrong for tao to call myself and all other Christians stupid for believing in God and Jesus. Again, he doesn’t have to agree with us but he shouldn’t attack us that way. It is wrong, Immature, and again BEING CLOSE MINDED!
Another thing, if tao doesn’t care about anything that
“makes my life better and healthier”
then why does he care about evolution and the big bang! Again, I’m not attacking his or anybody else’ beliefs, I’m simple asking tao to think a little more when he writes stuff like that statement.
In conclusion, I hope I haven’t roused any tempers. Tao may be angry, but I hope he gets my point. I’ll still be around to learn more from you guys.

Hopefully, Jesus was immersed in direct communication with GOD. This direct communication, likewise, would be absolutely truthful. This direct and absolute communication is all that should matter. Again, hopefully this is what Jesus was all about, and, his mission was to immerse everyone into this direct and absolute communication. Assuming this is true, all other issues should become secondary. These secondary issues would be;
belief, faith, proof, evidence that points in a direction, using water to baptize, evolution, the big band stuff, teaching exercises, book sales, positive or negative comments, et. al. The need to compare beliefs seems like a cheap substitute for the real thing.

Hello C. I know a little about the “Jesus Story”.
Such as:
1) There are more than four gospels. The Nag Hammadi library was discovered in Egypt in 1945 and contains over 50 texts including the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and so forth. The reason that only four gospels made it into the bible is because the bible was edited to make sure that only one point of view was available to the early Christian community. As the bible has been edited to represent a certain point of view then it is not a set of impartial eyewitness accounts. I’ve added the link below so that you can research this for yourself.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
2) Out of the four gospels that made it into the bible, 3 are called the Synoptic gospels.
They are called this because they roughly follow the same timeline, have roughly the same parables and roughly the same cast of characters which means they all came from a similar source of information.
It also means that not only is the original source not written down, but that those who did write it down changed the stories here and there. If you don’t believe this, just compare the genealogies of Jesus’ ancestry in Matthew and Luke as they are completely different (Mark doesn’t contain a genealogy at all).
The gospel according to John however has a different timeline/cast of characters/parables.
This means that either the synoptic gospels or the gospel of John is just a story: they can’t all be true if they all tell different stories. I’ve added the link below so you can compare for yourself how different John’s gospel is to the others.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_john.htm
3) Talking of stories, there is a thing called “narrative”. All cultures form “narratives”, or ways of telling stories, such as opening the story with “Once upon a time…”.
When telling stories of holy men the formula of describing their birth has lead to many miraculous birth stories, particularly in Jewish texts. So Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Hannah and Mary all have miraculous births because they all give birth to special men.
In other religions there are miraculous births, some of them virgin: the Buddha’s mother was a virgin, the God Krishna was conceived without sexual contact bewteen his parents, the God Mithras was the son of a virgin, a dead father conceived the God Horus on the body of the virgin Isis. So virgin birth is not unique to Jesus.
The point of the miracle birth story is to let the reader know that the story is about someone special, not that the miracle is meant to be believed as literally true.
http://culturalvision.net/html/merry_mithras.html
4) Staying with stories and how we tell them, the idea of death and resurrection is also a way to tell a story. It happens to the God Osiris, the God Mithras, and the God Dyonisus (who also has a Last Supper with 12 disciples).
Also, the synoptic gosples all carry different accounts of Jesus’ resurrection and you will find a comparison of the differences in the link below.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rsposse/rescomptable.htm
I am also providing a link to a recent archaeological discovery which covers the topic of story telling. A large stone covered in text includes a resurrection account prior to Jesus’ ministry.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
So to recap, it seems that:
1) the virgin birth story is not unique to the story of Jesus: therefore you must either accept ALL miracle birth stories of various Gods as true OR none at all.
2) the resurrection story is not unique to Jesus: therefore you must either accept ALL resurrection stories as true or none at all.
3) the gospel stories do not match each other
4) as the gospel stories do not match each other they cannot be literally true.
It seems to me C that you have a couple of choices. You can pretend that the bible stories do match (which will make you a liar) or accept that the bible is a collection of stories written and edited by persons unknown for reasons unknown. And you can pretend that the stories about Jesus prove that he is the son of God but then you would have to accept Mithras and Dyonisus as the sons of God too.
Lastly, I’d like to comment on what you say to Tao:
*But what’s wrong for him to say is that Jesus never existed and yet refuses to learn Jesus’ story and look up the evidence. If he knew the story and had the evidence, THEN he could rebut the existence of Jesus.*
YOU haven’t provided any evidence for the existence of Jesus at all. YOU do not know how your bible has been put together because you have simply accepted what it says without questioning or researching who wrote it or why they wrote it, and furthermore expect us to accept what you believe on nothing more than your say-so.

Dear Roger,
“Hopefully….” “…would be….” “…what Jesus was all about….” “…his mission….” “Assuming this is true….”
Excuse me, but I do reject your preference in assumptions.
I have been “compar[ing]…beliefs” for quite a long time. Most seem idiosyncratically premised, and their bases only rarely correspond to my own (critically assessed) experience(s). Your calling this (so-called) “need” on my part “a cheap substitute for the real thing” does not correspond to the rather costly process that this activity has led me through. But this process, nevertheless, has led me to recognize the poorly based nature of the founding beliefs upon which many I have encountered (in one way or another) have endeavored to tell me how I should live my life, and what I should believe. My rejection of many beliefs has been hard won and rather costly. I reject your assessment.
To you (and C) I commend Bart Ehrmann’s recently published _God’s Problem_. I have also found several other of Ehrmann’s recent books to be most solidly based, reasoned, and presented. (I differ from him in his opinion about the reliability of the Two Source hypothesis.) I suggest the possibility/probability that informing yourself by reading several of Ehrmann’s expositions would be of helpful benefit in your reassessing some of your own premises.
I urge: REPENT! ….. which most basically means: think about it again. (And, of course, I further suggest that several of those who post remarks in Brian’s blog might likewise pursue further thought – and further exposure to information and critical reassessments – in some of their own reconsiderations.
Whether you might choose to follow my suggestion – or not – is (as you say) “no big deal” to me. Do as you so choose. I rest assured that you (all) will, in any case.
Robert Paul Howard

Robert,
Thanks for your comment.
Yes, the assumptions in my above comment, were placed there for a reason. The direct and absolute communication idea, comes from the assumption that Jesus and God are the all of all. I don’t know Jesus and God. In addition, I don’t have the immersion in direct and absolute communication. I am only commenting for myself. I was not commenting for what you need to do.
Nothing wrong with beliefs, faith, theories, proof and evidence. I’m just not obsessed with the concepts. They play a role, just not an almighty role. Finally, I’m not sure I understand what your comment was trying to say. However, your affairs are yours.

Alright, I’d like to adress that article someone wrote with the comic next to the first paragraph.
I would like to say that that comic is ridiculous! Who said I’m “ignorant” or not believing the truth? Hello, the author and you guys admit evolution and the big bang are theories! There is a difference between theory and truth, that’s why it’s called a theory.
Finally, to claim I’m being ignorant is just as bad as what tao use to say! I’m not saying the word ignorant should never be used, but in this case it’s wrong to use it. Even if I called you guys ignorant, that would be wrong too. All you guys can testify that I’m not ignorant because I WANT to learn both sides! I would be ignorant and close minded if I refuse to learn both sides.
Other than that the article wasn’t bad. The person wrote in a calm tone and adressed the point well. Other than for the comic, it was an interesting article.

Diana (26 May),
There’s more to belief in God than just stories in a traditional book. There’s also the findings of reason and the evidence of experience. Whenever tradition refuses to work with reason and experience, fundamentalism results.
Brian –
Your initial post wanted to know who created God. Here’s what I think about that.
It’s often asked: “If everything comes from God, where does God come from?” and “If God created everything, who created God?” Notice those two FAQs follow from an acknowledged relationship between God and Everything. Thorough answers to them will, therefore, require ideas of “Everything” to be complete.
The complete idea of Everything must be all-inclusive. It must comprise everyone and everywhere and every-when as well as every individual thing. Everything must include all things and lives and minds and forces and places and times, without anything omitted whatsoever. If a notion of Everything exempts anything from inclusion, then that notion isn’t complete and won’t be adequate to answer the FAQs.
Since Everything includes everything except God, it follows that there isn’t anything to consider other than Everything and God. With the complete idea of Everything in mind, it makes no sense to seek a “who” and a “where” that exist before God does but aren’t part of Everything. Thus, the two FAQs actually rely on incomplete notions of Everything.
If you’re seriously seeking answers to questions about God, then look for what completes your notion of Everything; and that way you’ll find where God comes from and who created God.

Hi Nick,
Are you thinking in the direction of
“God’s Debris” by Scott Adams?
I like your post
Obed

Edward,
I truely believe that you are wearing a wig. I have much faith in its reality. I am still confused, “What role does wig wearing play in the Big Bang and Evolutionary theory?” Please respect my feelings on this matter, I have a true desire to learn.

Brian,
Please place my above comment in the Repent. Believe in science thread.
Thanks….Roger

Nick, why does “God” have to be added to “Everything”? This is an unnecessary humancentric duality, a product of theological conceptualizing, not reality.
Nature is equivalent to Everything. So is Cosmos. These terms point to what is actually observable, Everything. Yet they have the advantage of not positing something unobserved and hypothetical: God.
Now, maybe this is the point of your comment. I couldn’t tell. If so, I agree with you that taking Everything, there’s no need to add anything to it.
So there’s no need for God.

Nick,
“If you’re seriously seeking answers to questions about God, then look for what completes your notion of Everything; and that way you’ll find where God comes from and who created God.”
—nice statement. Is there someone that has, “completed their notion of Everything?”
Could that person write a comment as to where they found where God comes from and who created God?

What with all this talk of a creator god, let’s not forget about good old Mother Nature doing her wonderous creative work. If we don’t have rituals and worship for her, why should we for only a theoretical higher god.
Because some people want there to be a higher god, they have gone about trying to prove its existence with dubious proofs. Attributing the mystery of life and the universe to Mother Nature isn’t enough for them. They want there to be an even higher mysterious deity. The more mysterious, the more unprovable and faith based it has to be, which is how they like it. A normal human characteristic I suppose. Kids believe in fairy tales but at least they are able to grow out of them.
As for human values and aspiring to live an enlightened life, where does that come from? It comes from us mere mortals. We don’t need a god for that.

Brian,
You say: “Nature is equivalent to Everything. So is Cosmos. These terms point to what is actually observable, Everything.”
You may be right. Depends on what you mean. Are you speaking intelligibly or empirically?
I would agree that Everything (i.e. the complex-unity of the Plotinian “Nous”) is known directly by intuitive insight into the transcendent unity of all things simultaneously. Everything is observable, in that intelligible sense, because our inner eye/I is wide open.
But I wouldn’t say that Everything is observable to the physical eye alone. Intangible realities (e.g. meanings, purposes, memories, anticipations, the processes of consciousness, and the innate activity of the mind itself) cannot be seen in any physical or empirical sense.
Once we see with the intelligible vision of our inner eye/I, however, we can observe intangible realities in the spiritual life of our own mind. Our inner eye/I also sees the ideas we have of physical things in the world.
The aim of the Platonic Zen exercises is to open the inner eye/I and get comfortable with seeing things in the world and thoughts in the mind simultaneously.
Seeing Everything from that point of view, we realise that there’s no need to add the simple-unity of God because it’s already present giving existence and location to Everything – otherwise there wouldn’t be anything to observe or anyone to observe it.

Roger,
Thanks for your comment and your two fair questions.
Virtually everyone has an idea of Everything. The name they give it doesn’t much matter. Whether they call it Cosmos, universe, world, Nature, or something else – the point is that they have an idea of Everything. In my opinion, most of those ideas are incomplete for one and the same reason which I’ll get to in a moment. First, if you don’t mind, try this thought exercise. Imagine you’re given a pencil and sheet of paper and sent into a room to write a complete inventory of everything the room contains. You look around inside and all you see is an empty wooden box and a dog-eared book. What would you write on the paper? Think about it for a moment.
There’s a good chance that your initial inventory of everything in the room would consist only of a box and a book. But that inventory is incomplete because it doesn’t list everything in the room. Think about it. You’re looking round the room which is empty apart from the box and the book that you have already taken note of. Can you see what’s missing?
Maybe you’ve got it already. A complete inventory of everything would obviously include the box and the book. Subtly, it might also include the pencil and sheet of paper you’re holding, the clothes you’re wearing and the air you’re breathing. But more subtly still and most importantly of all, in addition to those observable objects, a complete inventory must include yourself as the subject of the exercise. If you weren’t in the room, the inventory of everything wouldn’t even be started.
So, a complete inventory of everything in the room is an analogy for an idea of Everything without anything omitted whatsoever. The point of the analogy is that most people omit themselves from their idea of Everything. They unintentionally limit their thinking to visible objects and overlook the intangible realities – e.g. values, meanings, purposes, memories, dreams, reflections, the processes of consciousness, the innate activity of the mind itself, etc – that actually constitute the most important parts of real human experience.
If all we notice are objects in the outer world and we are unaware of our inner activity as subjects, then we are living with an incomplete consciousness of the conditions of our own experience. For there is no experience without a first-personal subject to select ideas in mind and direct attention towards things in the world.
Most of us, most of the time, are only partly conscious of who we are and where we are and what we are experiencing. We’re looking out at the physical world and dreaming it’s reality. If we’re serious about wanting to find where God comes from and who created God, then we need to awaken our inner eye/I and look within the spontaneous activity of the mind itself.
The “Platonic Zen exercises” that Brian kindly posted on this site aim to facilitate that awakening of spiritual consciousness.

Nick,
Thanks for your reply,
you mentioned,
“If we’re serious about wanting to find where God comes from and who created God, then we need to awaken our inner eye/I and look within the spontaneous activity of the mind itself.” and,
“The “Platonic Zen exercises” that Brian kindly posted on this site aim to facilitate that awakening of spiritual consciousness.”
—Where God comes from and who created God?
Again, from the “Platonic Zen” exercises
that One has immersed in, write a comment that gives some kind of answer to the above questions that you posed.
Nick, smooth talkers are a dime a dozen. Anyone can talk and talk, and say nothing.
If One is a follower, your style of talk would make One want to dance with joy.

Obed,
Sorry, I missed your comment.
Actually, I’ve not heard of “God’s Debris” by Scott Adams. But I’ll certainly keep an eye out for it. And it’ll probably turn up. You know how those things go!

Roger,
As often as not, we see what we’re led to expect.
For example: have you seen the movie “The Crying Game”? It ends with a marvellous twist. If I tell you the twist before you see the film, however, your whole viewing pleasure may be diminished by knowing the end in advance.
To avoid a similar trap, none of the “Platonic Zen exercises” include descriptions of what the practitioner is likely to experience.
The point is to practice each exercise in turn, make your own discovery, and then proceed onto the next exercise. That’s why they’re called ‘graduated exercises’.
In that way, practitioners are encouraged to “sit down and work out their own Enlightenment, with diligence” (which is Gautama Buddha’s suggestion).
When all the smooth talking is done, if we don’t have any informed experience of our own to consult, what other measure do we use for assessing the believability of what anyone says?
Nevertheless, let’s assume you’ve tried the practice of Innate Joy, at least. After recollecting occasions of happiness in the past, do you notice that some of the happiness lingers to enrich your enjoyment of the present?
That transference of Joy is a subtle thing, to be sure. Yet subtleties are only difficult to see at first. With practice, consciousness transforms and subtleties get more obvious.
As we go deeper, however, things only become even more subtle than that. So if you haven’t yet developed subtle awareness of the first practice, I don’t have anything believable to say about realisations that come from the third practice.
So: a serious search for answers to questions about the origin of God, according to my best advice, starts with finding your own experience of Innate Joy. When you’ve found it, look into it – seriously.
But maybe you’ve already noticed the transference of Joy. Let’s hope. Have you noticed, yet, the ways your consciousness and life-experience begin to alter with the increased presence of Joy? Can you tell me about those changes?
Moreover, have you discovered the original source of the Joy? Furthermore, have you found the final purpose of the Joy, do you think?
There’s a bit to go through, I guess. But a serious search, which makes a substantial difference in one’s life and mind here-now and here-after, isn’t really likely to be as easy as 1, 2, 3.

For those who may be interested
Below is a link to a wikipedia article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God's_Debris
There is a free e-book at
http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/godsdebris/
Here is the introduction at the wikipedia article
God’s Debris: A Thought Experiment (ISBN 0-7407-4787-8) is a 2001 novella by Dilbert creator Scott Adams.
God’s Debris creates a philosophy based on the idea that the simplest explanation tends to be the best (a corruption of Occam’s Razor). It surmises that an omnipotent God annihilated himself in the Big Bang, because an omniscient God would already know everything possible except his own lack of existence, and exists now as the smallest units of matter and the law of probability, or “God’s debris”, hence the title.

Nick,
Thanks again for your reply,
You mentioned,
“As often as not, we see what we’re led to expect.”
—I wasn’t expecting anything. Your answer is your answer. Assessing the believability of your answer is not important. Nothing wrong with stating, “I don’t know.”
However, maybe, you did answer,
“I don’t have anything believable to say about realisations that come from the third practice.”
–Nothing wrong with that statement. I am beginning to feel the joy and the happiness.

Obed,
Thanks for the information and links on “God’s Debris”.
I’ve down-loaded the e-book and look forward to reading it.
Meanwhile, I glanced at the Wiki entry on “God’s Debris” and that was quite interesting. Indeed, I saw straightaway how my comment on “Everything” might have reminded you of Adams’ philosophy.
In the Introduction Adams’ writes: “The central character in God’s Debris knows everything. Literally everything.”
Well, I think that “everything” is a concept or idea that each of us produces for ourselves. A four year-old child’s idea of everything certainly includes everything the child can imagine, but a forty year-old’s idea would be somewhat more detailed and comprehensive. Yet, for each of them, what they have in mind is their idea of everything.
The Wiki says “the mind is a delusion-generating machine” and quotes George Lakoff as saying: “Our ordinary conceptual system…is fundamentally metaphorical in nature.” I agree with those ideas.
But I think we also have another way of knowing what’s going on – a non-conceptual way of thinking – that gives us access to non-delusional experience of everything.
I believe that every individual mind has a subconscious connection to one universal consciousness, so the ordinary person can live an extraordinary life.
Here’s a link to an article about the “Global Consciousness Project” which (apparently) is a scientific attempt to ‘detect whether all of humanity shares a single subconscious mind that we can all tap into without realising.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/display/?id=126649

Nick thanks very much.
Regards
Obed

Hello again to all.
Thanks goes to Charles for his astute comment that I found to be very much along the lines of my own perspectives.
———————————
As for C’s basically absurd and grossly mistaken conclusions, I have little to say. There is just really no point in me wasting my time on someone who could not understand the gist and simple meaning of my previous posted comment. C’s response was incredibly off the mark. And so C seems awfully immature intellectually and philosophically.
But here goes anyway:
C stated:
“I will adress tao’s post and explain what I think of it.”
“I would first of all like to point out that tao sounds like a CLOSE MINDED PERSON!”
— I simply have no need for useless myths like Jesus. That’s certainly not close-minded.
“But what’s wrong for him to say is that Jesus never existed and yet refuses to learn Jesus’ story and look up the evidence.”
— I did not say either way. And I don’t need to learn about it… because I already know far too much about all of it.
“If he knew the story and had the evidence, THEN he could rebut the existence of Jesus. But if he doesn’t know the story then he shouldn’t rebut it until he learns more about it.”
— I know the story… and I see no value in it and have no use for it.
“I am not attacking his beliefs, again, he can believe whatever he wants to believe.”
— I don’t believe anything, and C is obviously a hypocrite.
“But it is ignorant to say, I don’t believe in him (Jesus) so I won’t learn about him.”
— C is grossly mistaken again. I did not say any such thing.
“It is further wrong for him to attack people for their thoughts.”
— I have attacked no one, and I have no obligation to agree with C’s delusions.
“I’m here to learn both sides of the argument of creation and the existence of God. I’m also here to learn what atheists think.”
— C is not here to “learn” anything. C is here to proseltyze about a thousand year old religious myth called Jesus.
“It is wrong for tao to call myself and all other Christians stupid for believing in God and Jesus.”
— C is stupid simply because C has no clue what my point was.
“he doesn’t have to agree with us but he shouldn’t attack us that way. It is wrong, Immature, and again BEING CLOSE MINDED!”
— I did not “attack” anyone… I simply bluntly stated my opinions… which is something far too difficult for C’s apparently limited intellect to comprehend.
“if tao doesn’t care about anything that
“makes my life better and healthier”
then why does he care about evolution and the big bang!”
— Wrong again. I said that I only care about people and things which do make my life better. But I don’t care about the “big-bang” because it is just an idea and has absolutely nothing to do with my life here and now.
“I’m not attacking his or anybody else’ beliefs, I’m simple asking tao to think a little more when he writes stuff like that statement.”
— I don’t need to think about any such thing. And your beliefs are your problem.
“Tao may be angry, but I hope he gets my point.”
— The only point is this…. that C does not know what the hell the point is. And “hope” is less than worthless.

Hi Nick,
I just finished reading the article about
“Global Consciousness Project”.
Is this possible proof of a “Global Soul”?
Maybe Gaia is real?

thanks to tao for trying to unravel some of C’s misconceptions, though I suspect it is effort wasted.
C, the problem is that your whole framework is misconceived. Here are a few of your mistaken assumptions:
1) that creationism vs. evolution is a real dialectic,
2) that atheists, and others on this site are “for evolution,”
3) that people on this site are “atheists”
4) whatever you think an “atheist” is
C, have you ever thought that you might not only be the content of your mind, and have you ever seriously questioned where the content of your mind (i.e. your beliefs about Christ, but also all of your desires, likes, dislikes) comes from?

Hello Obed,
Your question about the ‘reality’ of Gaia got my old fond memories flowing! Thanks.
There are very clear & definite ‘inner’ experiences, extremely profound and transformative, of identifying with what I guess others have labelled ‘Gaia’. In these experiences ‘you’ become like the ‘soul’ of the planet; the plants, trees, oceans, rocks, animals etc, all as ONE undivisable whole. It really cannot be described unless you have that experience, truely amazing and stunning, really.
I am guessing, hardly knowing a thing about conceptions ‘Gaia’, that this is what those experiences are?
I was left with 2 insights that remained from those experiences. 1) If ‘I’ can be the ‘soul’ of an entire planet, then what does that say about our so-called individual ‘soul’, when we can identify with the ‘souls’ of others, or even millions of ‘souls’ at once in a ‘higher’ order of unfoldment? Imo, individuality is an illusion. 2) How connected we all are.
PS, the only books I am aware of which have personal recollections/descriptions of these kind of experiences are by Stanislav Grof, ‘The aAdventure of Self Discovery’ being rather excellent.
Cheerio.
PPS, thanks Brian for clarifying about the forum. It is a shame there isn’t more activity :o(

PPPS (:-), I kinda gotta sheepishly add, that during those experiences, I witnessed great climactic changes. And that our constant usage of oil is the cause of many of humanities ills, not only climactic, but also expressed through political troubles. I distinctly witnessed/understood oil as a POISON. (this was some 8-12 years ago, cannot remember, some time before the currenct world hoo-haa about oil and climate-change etc)
The sheepish part being, that I am aware this is purely nonsensical and stands up to absolutely no logical or rational scrutiny whatsoever, so please pay absolutely no heed to this! Just telling it how it was, even if I don’t believe it myself 🙂

Manjit,
I too have had “Gaia” experiences and I also “saw” that oil and this civilization was “sick” but that it was all part of an unfoldment that was right on course and exactly as it should be. Everything at any moment is exactly as it should be and fine just as it is.

Thanks for your comments Arthur.
Out of sincere interest, are you able in any way to elaborate on your experiences?
Also, what do you think these expeirences are ‘unfolding’ to?
Lastly, and this is a question I ask myself, how do you/we know these experiences aren’t just entirely mental creations with no relation to consensual reality (haven’t mystics been foretelling armageddon scenarious for millenia?), complete and utter experiential profundity, awe and amazement aside?
Thanks.

Manjit inquired: “Out of sincere interest, are you able in any way to elaborate on your experiences?”
–It is difficult to elaborate without distorting the “wholeness” of it and just raising more questions.
“Also, what do you think these expeirences are ‘unfolding’ to?”
–The experiences are not unfolding. Life is. It’s like a brilliant flower of endless interwoven petals kaleidoscopically infinitely blooming. Nothing is out of place. There. I said it.
“Lastly, and this is a question I ask myself, how do you/we know these experiences aren’t just entirely mental creations with no relation to consensual reality (haven’t mystics been foretelling armageddon scenarious for millenia?), complete and utter experiential profundity, awe and amazement aside?”
–I hear you and I have no answer except to say that it APPEARS that these experiences are real. When people predict earthchanges, polar shifts, armageddon, etc. they may be tapping into this greater Gaia consciousness and seeing the unfoldment of what may take a long time in relativity condensed into a flash of intuition.
Maybe it is just a temporary alteration of brain chemistry ala LSD. However, immersed in it, there is no doubt of its validity.

Dear Everyone,
I generally am not a great believer in
Near Death Experiences.So I leave the following
quote to Brian to decide if he wishes this quote
to appear on his blog.
this is the url of the NDE
http://www.nderf.org/anita_m's_nde.htm
below is some of what she believes
NDERF: Can you expand on what you mean by people’s attachments to beliefs and an unwillingness to let go of them may be holding us back as a mass consciousness.
It feels to me now that our “physical” lives have been built around things seeming to be a certain way. Bear in mind, though, that people depend on things being a certain way. Livelihoods depend on it. Our health, wellbeing and safety depend on it.
People’s lives are “built” on certain beliefs and their lives work within the framework of everyone around them believing that these things are true. If everyone around you believes in something, you are inclined to believe it too, and think of it as being true. And your life evolves, as a mass consciousness, based on these seeming “truths”. This way of being has been going on for a long time. It has the feel of being solid, with solid foundations. In that 4D state, it felt like, this is how we created this present physical reality – this “illusion”. By everybody believing in the same things. That, in itself, makes it true for the mass consciousness.
If we, as a mass consciousness, believed in something completely different, then the world would be a culmination of that collective belief. From that perspective, it really felt like our collective belief created this “illusion” of truth.
I want to add here, though, that perhaps the way the world is structured right now, it’s just not ready to know the whole truth. Humankind is not ready for the “illusion” to be shattered. Everything is held in place by everyone believing and thinking a certain way.
So if someone came along who is able to see beyond this “illusion”, it is much easier for those still living within the illusion to “shoot” the messenger than to alter this “illusion”. It would cause too much uncertainty and chaos. It can’t be done overnight. Human collective unconsciousness is not able to come to terms with it. EVERYTHING would have to be looked at differently if people saw through the illusion overnight, and it would cause CHAOS, not peace and love (which those who see beyond the illusion are trying to bring in). Our medical systems, our judicial systems, our education systems, our religious systems would have to be COMPLETELY overhauled and re-evaluated. And it can’t be done overnight.
However, those who see through the illusion, see this. And those who see this, become focused in creating a reality for themselves based on their own truths, rather than what has been created by the collective unconsciousness.
The universe is changing at the pace that it is capable of changing, that’s why those who see beyond the illusion are able to see the perfection in things being “just so”. The so called “strife” that goes on, the wars, the disparity between rich and poor, the contradictions in religion and sciences, this could be just a natural occurrence of a consciousness that is waking up and starting to see through this man made illusion of collective unconsciousness.
Everything is happening at a pace which is perfect for our fragile collective to handle. The way our world is right now, it is not geared up to deal with the REAL TRUTH. The collective does not yet seem fully ready to handle it. Maybe it never will be. Maybe while we are here, we are meant to deal with things at this level. However, to me, it certainly feels like this ability (to live beyond the illusion) is something that is attainable by the individual, should they choose to do so.
NDERF: If there was a message or lesson from your NDE that you wish everyone could know or understand, something that you wish you could shout out from the rooftops, what would that be?
I would want EVERYONE to know that every part of you is magnificent. Your ego. Your mind. Your intellect. Your body. Your spirit. Your soul. It’s who you are. A beautiful product of this universe’s creation. Every part of you is perfect. There is nothing to let go. Nothing to forgive. Nothing to attain. You already are everything you need to be. We make it so complicated. But it’s not.
If a religion makes you feel lesser than God, then you have either misinterpreted it, or it’s not doing a good job of teaching you the truth. If a Guru or Teacher or Master makes you feel that you are not “yet” enlightened, and still have more to “learn”, “release” or “let go of” before getting there, then they are not doing a good job of teaching you who you are, or you are misinterpreting them.
Most of our suffering stems from us feeling “less than”. We are not LESS THAN ANYTHING OR ANYONE!! We are complete!
The ONLY THING you need to learn is that you already ARE what you are seeking to attain!!
Just express your uniqueness with abandon!! That’s why you are made the way you are, and that’s why you are here in the physical world!!

Obed,
Nice quote from the NDE person. I particularly like the bit that says: “this ability (to live beyond the illusion) is something that is attainable by the individual, should they choose to do so.
I certainly agree we’re always free to wake up from the believable illusion of the ordinary world. Although it’s easier said than done. The illusion is, after all, so believable!
As to your earlier comment. Yes, I’ve heard of Gaia and, yes, have often thought that the World has a Soul of its own.
Manjit,
You mention the “Gaia experience”. That’s an interesting expression I’ve not heard before. It sounds pretty special – like actually seeing everything, including yourself, from all possible viewpoints simultaneously.
You asked Arthur: “how do you/we know these experiences aren’t just entirely mental creations with no relation to consensual reality?”
Hopefully you won’t mind if I respond. True spiritual experiences are self-authenticating. They have a more comprehensive degree of unity that includes who we are and what we know in the actual experience of knowing. In that integrated state, doubt isn’t an option.
Once we fall out of that unity into the divided experience of consensual reality, subjects and objects and sensations all seem to be separate things and it’s hard to know what to believe.
___________________________________________
Although I’ve not had time yet to read “God’s Debris, the Wiki summary says one of its ideas is that “an omniscient God would already know everything possible except his own lack of existence.” That gave me an interesting thought.
What if Adams’ God self-disintegrates to learn what his own non-existence is like?
Maybe to find out the God lodged a spark of his all-knowing consciousness in each bit of primal matter. The sparks would function like a soul, giving life and mind to matter – which is how come it behaves in probabilistic ways. When the bits evolve into thinking organisms that are aware of their own existence, they can choose to become conscious of the spark within themselves and all other things and lives and minds.
One mind in all things, seeing itself everywhere as everything. God evolving towards self-realisation through the world of space, time and physical things as a whole.

Hi Nick,
I think you are onto something,with regard to your
ideas of “Adams’ God.In fact a God that is and knows
everything is probably quite capable of constantly
recreating itself totally or in part.
Thanks for the idea
Obed

I read most of everyones comments. Here everyone one is right, everyone is wrong and some of you came close to the truth, but just couldn’t find the last puzzle piece. Helen’s comment was excellent. Here she found two different lineages of Joseph in the bible by my two different writers. This really should not be dismissed. That is because the bible is a mixture pagan beliefs and the word of God. Man put his own hand in the bible. It is all mixed up. Don’t get me wrong. God does exist. He came and talked to me so I have proof. God is very real. Most of the time he keeps his mouth shut and lets you hash it all out in your own head. We can’t stop talking, but he can be very quiet. So quiet you don’t know he is around. I know cause suddenly he was everywhere then just as fast he was no where to be found.
I will answer one question that was put out here by one blogger here. “Where did God come from”? My answer is that God also has parents just like we do. My thought on this is that there is always a higher God to answer to. You have to answer to this God. God answers to a higher God. At one point in our Gods evolution he could have been human just like you. Mel Steffor

To Nick,
I can not figure out where you are at on this. You seem to be tangled up in words. A concept where God even questions his own existance? Where did you get that from?
Trying to figure out who God is and what God is made from, is beyond imagination. It is not even conceivably possible to imagine the invisible world in which he exists.
Another point is that Jesus did not ascend up to Heaven in his Body. No one has a human body in Heaven. I recently found out that this is what the Church is teaching people. That is all wrong. Your old body is throw away, tossed out after you die. It’s now trash. I don’t like having my body thrown away either, but that is what happens. You get a new body in your Fathers House. I hope this clears up a few mis-conceptions.

Obed,
Your idea of a God “constantly recreating itself totally or in part” is an interesting notion. There’s a novel called “The Lord of Light” by Roger Zelanzy which works with such a theme. An eternal God becomes human from time to time in order to keep the whole equation of time and eternity in balance. Fascinating thought.
Mel Steffor,
You seem to have mis-read the quotation I posted from the Wikipedia summary of Scott Adams’ book “God’s Debris”. I quoted Wiki as saying that Adams’ idea is that “an omniscient God would already know everything possible except his own lack of existence.”
Maybe Adams’ idea can be interpreted as God exploring the extent of his existence. That’s a worthwhile possibility to consider.
But you’re asking about, “A concept where God even questions his own existance?” If by “questions” you mean DOUBTS, then I agree that’s a tangled idea.
Yet, it wasn’t me who introduced that idea, Mel. It seems to arise from your mis-reading of the Wiki quote.
Further, you say, “Trying to figure out who God is and what God is made from, is beyond imagination. It is not even conceivably possible to imagine the invisible world in which he exists.” Well, I reckon that depends on the scope of one’s imagination. Maybe people who have spent a lifetime practising spiritual exercises, contemplating spiritual ideas and living in the spiritual presence of God might be able to imagine what other people can’t conceive. Do you think that’s a possibility?
You also say, “God does exist. He came and talked to me so I have proof.” From your own experience, then, you no doubt have some ideas about “who God is and what God is made from” and about “the invisible world in which he exists.” If you can have your experiences and ideas about such divine things, why can’t other people also be graced to have their experiences and ideas about those same divine things?

Hi Nick,
Thanks.I bought Zelanzy’s book for $1 at Abebooks.
I have always enjoyed science fiction.
About Gaia maybe all us spirits who are living here on earth in physical form,actually made the earth so
we could express all our potentialities in concrete
form.Perhaps one day we will hit it just right and then we will have heaven on earth.

Nick,
You ask “What if Adams’ God self-disintegrates to learn what his own non-existence is like?” If this happens, would not God cease to exist? And if God already exists in every possible way, God already knows of its non-existence. It just doesn’t make any sense to me.
And “Maybe to find out….” about his non-existence, “…the God lodged a spark of his all-knowing consciousness in each bit of primal matter.” Then the all-knowing consciousness would also cease to exist. So where does that leave us? Without a God? I would suggest that God’s existence matters not to God. Otherwise it implies that just like us, God is questioning its existence, having thoughts as we do, and we are seeing God very much in our own likeness and limitations.
It all comes down to how we see God, and naturally enough it is mostly through “humancentric” eyes, as Brian put it.
Still, it is a fascinating intellectual exercise to bring God down to our level so that we may see a God that is understandable to us on our terms. But we must be careful as to where that may lead us in our beliefs.
I have not read Adams’ work so I don’t know how what he has said is meant to be taken.

Hi Peter,
Below is the introduction to Scott Adams’ book.It may provide a partial answer for you.
Introduction
This is not a Dilbert book. It contains no humor. I call it a
132-page thought experiment wrapped in a fictional story.
I’ll explain the thought experiment part later.
God’s Debris doesn’t fit into normal publishing cubby-
holes. There is even disagreement about whether the mate-
rial is fiction or nonfiction. I contend that it is fiction because
the characters don’t exist. Some people contend that it is
nonfiction because the opinions and philosophies of the char-
acters might have lasting impact on the reader.
The story contains no violence, no sexual content, and
no offensive language. But the ideas expressed by the char-
acters are inappropriate for young minds. People under the
age of fourteen should not read it.
The target audience for God’s Debris is people who
enjoy having their brains spun around inside their skulls.
After a certain age most people are uncomfortable with new
ideas. That certain age varies by person, but if you’re over
fifty-five (mentally) you probably won’t enjoy this thought
experiment. If you’re eighty going on thirty-five, you might
like it. If you’re twenty-three, your odds of liking it are very
good.
The story’s central character has a view about God that
you’ve probably never heard before. If you think you would
be offended by a fictional character’s untraditional view of
God, please don’t read this.
The opinions and philosophies expressed by the charac-
ters are not my own, except by coincidence in a few spots
not worth mentioning. Please don’t write me with passion-
ate explanations of why my views are wrong. You won’t dis-
cover my opinions by reading my fiction.
The central character in God’s Debris knows everything.
Literally everything. This presented a challenge to me as a
writer. When you consider all of the things that can be
known, I don’t know much. My solution was to create
smart-sounding answers using the skeptic’s creed:
The simplest explanation is usually right.
My experience tells me that in this complicated world the simplest explanation is usually dead wrong. But I’ve noticed
that the simplest explanation usually sounds right and is far
more convincing than any complicated explanation could
hope to be. That’s good enough for my purposes here.
The simplest-explanation approach turned out to be
more provocative than I expected. The simplest explana-
tions for the Big Questions ended up connecting paths that
don’t normally get connected. The description of reality in
God’s Debris isn’t true, as far as I know, but it’s oddly com-
pelling. Therein lies the thought experiment:
Try to figure out what’s wrong with the
simplest explanations.
The central character states a number of scientific “facts.”
Some of his weirdest statements are consistent with what scien-
tists generally believe. Some of what he says is creative baloney
designed to sound true. See if you can tell the difference.
You might love this thought experiment wrapped in a
story. Or you might hate it. But you won’t easily get it out
of your mind. For maximum enjoyment, share God’s Debris
with a smart friend and then discuss it while enjoying a tasty
beverage.

Dear Brian,
I have posted two rather lengthy posts here viz.
Anita-M’s NDE
and Scott Adams introduction
I apologize about this and if you wish to delete
them in a few days or when ever you wish it is
fine with me.
Thanks for your patience

Obed,
Thanks for the Adams’ intro. It appears I got carried away and missed the importance of Nick’s question and follow-on “What if Adams’ God…..” Nick was only further speculating on Adams’ speculative fictional story.
Nick,
Sorry about my carelessness. No need to respond to my post, if you were going to.

Mel,
Could you prepare a transcript of your last conversation with God? Sounds like it would be a fascinating read.

Hi Nick, You asked me this question:
“If you can have your experiences and ideas about such divine things, why can’t other people also be graced to have their experiences and ideas about those same divine things?”
Graced is not the word for what God did to me. This has not been good for me. He set me up and then dropped in on me. Destiny! He planned this before I was born, I say that because of the names of the towns here and the names of the people that live here are all part of his message. Example: The town called Pompey has meaning. Go look up (google) the name Pompey, all of the sudden your in Jerusalem. God does that over and over again with the names of the towns here. So much so it is no longer a coincidence. Then each dream matches up to one of the towns. So I had to do a lot of research on the internet to figure out just what God was trying to tell me. God talks in symbols and opposites.
Last I wish he would talk to some one else besides me. He wouldn’t do that for me. Then he does talk to other people but they don’t know it. He does not let it be known to them what he is doing.

Hi Roger, you asked this question:
Could you prepare a transcript of your last conversation with God? Sounds like it would be a fascinating read.
I did write everything down. I am not going to put it out on the Internet or on the Market for some time to come. Maybe after I am dead. Because I don’t want to be bothered by people with conflicting views. Especially Church people, they can be the worst. There is always someone out there with an equal and opposite point of view.
The only thing that God told with right out without all of his symbols is:
“We each die in succession, then we are born on the same say.”
And I think he did that cause there was no way I could figure that message out from the symbols he was showing me. The symbols were, Mike Douglas died on his Birthday. Merv Griffin dies the day after Mike. Merv and Nancy Reagan are born on the same day.

I wrote that wrong above:
We each die in succession, then we are born on the same day.
Now that is correct.

Mel’s supernatural god is nothing more than a figment of his imagination.
Mel’s imagined conversations and/or symbolic messages that he claims comes from his supernatural god (ie: his imagination) are delusional, and therfore are as meaningless as any other fiction.
Mel is clearly suffering from a serious psychiatric condition (psychoses) and he should definitely seek out qualified professional psychiatric treatment and counseling.
To better illustrate this fact to Mel as well as other readers, here below are the assembled claims that Mel has written that clearly reveal his delusional psychoses:
“…what God did to me.”
“He set me up and then dropped in on me.”
“He planned this before I was born”
“the names of the towns here and the names of the people that live here are all part of his message.”
“God does that over and over again with the names of the towns”
“so it is no longer a coincidence.”
“I had to do a lot of research on the internet to figure out just what God was trying to tell me.”
“God talks in symbols and opposites.”
“I wish he would talk to some one else besides me.”
“He wouldn’t do that for me.”
“he does talk to other people but they don’t know it.”
“He does not let it be known to them what he is doing.”
“I am not going to put it out on the Internet or on the Market for some time to come. I don’t want to be bothered by people with conflicting views.”
“There is always someone out there with an equal and opposite point of view.”
“The only thing that God told with right out without all of his symbols is”
“he did that cause there was no way I could figure that message out from the symbols he was showing me.”
“The symbols were, Mike Douglas died” …. “Merv Griffin dies the day after” …. “Merv and Nancy Reagan are born on the same day.”
[The above statements within quotations were posted by Mel Steffor.]

Tao is the very reason I don’t put everything out on the Internet. This is a quote from Tao:
Mel is clearly suffering from a serious psychiatric condition (psychoses) and he should definitely seek out qualified professional psychiatric treatment and counseling.
Really who needs to read crap like that. Here is some one that is unable discuss opinions or understand other peoples point of view, because he thinks he is right on all issues. Tao, you really need to understand that it is possible for you to be wrong on a few things. You can’t go around shooting people cause they don’t agree with you.

Tao,
Where do mean people go when they die? That is probably a long time from now since I am guessing your some one young. I guarantee you that it will happen when day. On your death bed I bet like anything you are going to be asking God to forgive you. In fact I know you will, quaranteed. I am not trying to prey on any superstitious beliefs you might have by saying that. I’ll bet on that. Know why, cause you don’t know everything, do you?

Tao,
Where is your proof that God does not exist? Your proof only exists only in your head. Cause I don’t see it anywhere.

Tao,
One positive that came from Mel’s comments is that it created an opportunity for you to jump back in this blog and write your weekly comments. Hopefully, your back to being a weekly regular. Your comments are fun to read.

Roger,
Thanks for your friendly appreciative smile my old friend. Don’t worry Bro, I’m still surfing around now and then, even though I don’t make the big waves as I used to. I’ve been spending my retirement lounging on my yacht sipping champagne with some very sexy bikini-clad babes.
——————————–
Mel,
The real reason you don’t put anything out on the Internet, is because you ain’t got nothin to put out.
And for you to think that I am actually “some one that is unable discuss opinions or understand other peoples point of view”, shows just how far up your ass you’ve got your head stuck. Go back and read the archives little grasshopper.
Mel, “you really need to understand that it is possible for you to be wrong” about everything. And you just can’t go around disagreeing with people just because they shoot at you.
Mel asked: “Where do mean people go when they die?”
Answer: The same place nice people go – nowhere.
Mel guesses: “I am guessing your some one young.”
Answer: Well seems you may have guessed wrong. I’m now retired and in my mid 60’s… but I can still rock and roll and bang the hot chicks just as hard as I did when I was in my much younger mid 20’s and 30’s. I’m also a serious weight-lifter, a yachtsman, ride a Harley, hold a Doctorate, and I’d already traveled the globe several times over and had climbed the Himalayas long before you even came of age.
Mel then rather foolishly asserts: “On your death bed I bet like anything you are going to be asking God to forgive you. In fact I know you will, quaranteed.”
Ahh the folly of those who bet blindly. Btw, I have no fear of death. Death is simply part of life. part of the whole. So I have no need to be “asking God to forgive” me. If there is any so-called “God”, then this God is simply Totality. So in as much as no one can be separate or apart from Totality, why would anyone ever need something like forgivness from the absolute, from Totality?
As for “superstitious beliefs”, those all belong to you Mel.
Then poor Mel says again: “I’ll bet on that”. Mel fumbles on: “…cause you don’t know everything, do you?”
I don’t about “everything” Mel, as “everything” is far too abstract. But I do know enough to know that you evidence signs of delusional and magical thinking.
Mel then asked: “Where is your proof that God does not exist?”
That’s funny, as I am not required to provide proof that God does not exist, since there isn’t any evidence anywhere that God does exist. Furthermore, I have never said that God does not exist, or vice versa. So Mel, your challenge is nearly as foolish as those delusions that “exists only in your head”.
In conclusion, I would have to say that if you are going to attempt to play with the big boys in the big league Mel, then you really ought to go and seriously acquaint yourself with the basics of the whole spectrum of Philosophy, both eastern and western. Otherwise, you are simply making a fool of yourself here with such trite inanities and obvious mental delusions. And for that, you really should seek some kind of professional psychiatric treatment.
I am not against you Mel. I just don’t support or encourage the kind of ‘messages from God’ nonsense that you have espoused here. I wish you the best.

Obed,
Well done finding “Lord of Light”. If you enjoy that story of Sam you might like “VALIS” by Philip K. Dick. It draws together a variety of themes (Gnostic religion, pagan philosophy, conspiracy theory, subjective experience) and weaves them all into a Vast Active Living Intelligence System, which gives the book its title.

Obed,
An after-thought.
Reading VALIS got me wondering about all the many different thoughts that were spinning in my head at that time. I wanted to get my ideas together. That set me thinking along the line of one single thought that actually includes all possible thoughts. I’m still thinking about that one all-inclusive thought.
Cheers,

Mel,
Thanks for responding to my question about spiritual matters.
Thanks also for sharing some of your own experiences. It’s a brave thing to do. Especially considering the unkindnesses that people can inflict upon one another.
I only get a glimmer of the personal space you describe. Frankly, that’s enough for me.
The spirit of God, as I know it, doesn’t push in that direction. Our own reactions can ricochet us off into unfortunate places.
But that’s something we do to ourselves for some reason which you might want to look into at some stage.
Best wishes on you’re journey.

Hi Nick,
One single thought thats all inclusive?
How about “I”

Arthur – thanks for your comments :o) I much agree with most all you said.
Nick – thanks too, again I much agree. However, envirnomental changes is most definitely a ‘dualistic’ issue, not one for the ‘non-dual’, so if it’s ‘true’ (dualistically speaking), it’s true. I wasn’t discussing the subjective or experiential

sorry, didn’t finish!
I wasn’t discussing the subjective or experiential impact of these experiences (I hold THAT particular meaning close to my heart, it IS subjective and experiential after-all ;-), I was precisely discussing HOW or IF these experiences bear any connection to the consensual reality we appear to inhabit.
But I feels ya.

Manjit,
Thanks for the clarification.
Maybe Gaia experiences are connected to our consensual reality in a way similar to how a breath-taking sunset lights up the entire sky and shines a lovely beam through our window into the loungeroom where we’re otherwise totally engrossed in watching some third-rate TV show :-)))

Tao,
I see u responded to my post. You ARE CLEARLY GOING AGAINST YOUR PREVIOUS POSTS! Throughout this ENTIRE blog you have continued to call myself and any believer “foolish, stupid, immature..etc.”I don’t understand why you call me those names when I in response don’t call u names for what u believe!
I would like to also say that U are misunderstanding my posts! Where in my posts was I hypocritical? If I was hypocritical, I would trying to force u guys in Christianity and be calling u guys stupid! On the other hand, I have respected ur views, called u NO names, and tried to talk to you (tao) in a nice manner.
YOU CAN BELIEVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE! But you have no right to call ME or anybody else names for what we believe. THAT is rude, mean, and IMMATURE! All I am asking is that you lighten up and be a little more nicer.

C,
You said: “I in response don’t call u names for what u believe!”
— I don’t care what you call me, but you are mistaken about one important thing… I don’t “believe” anything.

By the way tao, if you don’t believe Jesus ever existed, I suggest you rent a documentary titled “The Case for Christ.” In it, top scholars discuss all the evidence pointing to Jesus’ existence, death & ressurection.
And by the way, (this is just a random comment)Diana Nelson (I say this with all do respect) said a comment I disagree with.
She stated that the bible is written by an unknown author. Wrong! The bible is written by MANY authors whose names we DO know!

Oh come on, what “top” scholars? I have for myself done quite a bit of research in these matters and there is no proof that he existed and even if there was proof of his existence there is absolutely no proof of his resurection.
And I like Jesus 🙂
We don’t know the names of the authors of the bible, anyone who has done any serious research about the matter knows that we don’t know.
I however am always open to evidence.
And if I seem to be offensive towards christianity that is hardly the case as I have the deepest respect for some authors in the christian tradition.

Amaranth,
I’d like to tell you a story of a man named Lee Strobel. Strobel is just like YOU. He didn’t want to be a Christian unless he had facts. So, he researched the existence of Christ and all the other questions asked about him. In the end, he found so much evidence, that he became a believer. If you would like to see the scholars and all the evidence for Christ’s existence, watch a DVD called “The Case for Christ.” It answers many of the questions (if not all) on Jesus Christ.

P.S.
We also know he existed (this is mentioned in the DVD) because of reliable historians who wrote about him. One man, who’s writings have been accepted to be reliable by scholars, is Josephus. Josephus wrote a history of the Jews and mentions a man named Jesus of Nazareth who performed miracles!

Shut up C… no one is interested in your faulty Jesus & Bible jive. This is not Christian blog-site. So why do you continue to repeatedly preach Jesus dogma here?
And btw are you intellectually lame? I have already told you: I don’t BELIEVE in anything… period. So that goes for all your Bible bullshit too. I simply have no need of, and no use for… belief.
And Brian also pointed this out nicely in his most recent article.

Wow C!
How do you know that Strobel is just like me? Do you know me? Nope! This is what I find annoying about religious people. Not that they have faith in something as clearly that is their business,but that they assume that everything is simply the way they think it is. Talk about not being humble! Do you think that you know more than God when you completely define everybody through your way of reasoning? You know nothing about my stance on Christianity which is in many cases very symphatetic and I would even say that I have a strong Christian faith. But this faith of mine does not care if Jesus existed or not, it does not care if God exists or not for that matter, why? Because when one realises that he knows nothing about teological matters ( nothing can really be known about God ) then one develops true faith of accepting reality as it is not as he thinks it is. And the only truly Christian thing he can do in this position is to develop love for God ( by God I mean reality, that which is ) through which he sees particular things as God. This is the source of Christian ethics, this is the greatest thing Christianity ever achieved, not the stories of Jesus and his disciples ( eventhough some of them can be very inspiring in the same way that,say,Plato’s Apology is also very inspiring ) but the way of surrendering yourself to reality through the way of love.
In regards to Jesus performing miracles, Empedocles is also said to have performed them, does that make you want to worship him as a son of god and our savior?

Tao,
There you go again! All I ask is for you to be a little nicer (and still say what you want to say) and you come up and use bad language! I’m not saying you don’t have the right to question and attack me, but I’m just asking for you to be a little nicer! That’s all I want!
Amaranth, you said in the post where you questioned me on the scholars in the Case for Christ dvd, that you are always open to evidence. That is what I mean when I say you were like Lee Strobel. He was open to evidence…that’s the only way how he is like you from what I know.
Also, if you want answers to questions, or if you want to hear the evidence for Christ, just watch the DVD! You’ll find plenty of answers to your questions. And if it doesn’t help, then okay.

Tao,
I’ve already acknowledged you don’t believe in anything! Nowhere in the post where I adressed Amaranth did I mention you believing anything!
And if you don’t believe in God, that’s fine because you don’t believe in anything. But as for me, I willingly choose to believe in God! I choose to believe in HIM not just because of the evidence, but because when I believe in HIM and I read the Bible…I find peace. You may call me all these names, but even if you called me every bad name in the world and rebuked me over and over, I would still stand by God! Because I don’t find this much peace in anything else! That’s the wonderful thing about God! You feel loved, and cared for…you feel amazing! It is that feeling that makes me and many Christians stand by God. It is not just a religion…it is a ticket to happiness.
You may continue to persecute me…but you (tao) can never…ever… take away the joy I find in HIM.

Hi C,
tAo is not “persecuting you.” Please take a minute and try to understand what he is saying, because it is of great value. Let me put it into much nicer words.
Let’s say you are looking at a red apple. You might “believe” it is an apple. Someone else might “believe” it is an orange. This belief will surely color the experience the looker is having…but it doesn’t fundamentally effect the fact that of looking at the apple. Take away the concepts of apple and orange and you are still looking at a thing. Take away the concept of red, and there is still an experience happening. The reason tAo doesn’t “believe anything” is not because he chooses to “reject god” or to “persecute you,” but instead because he feels now that belief is not necessary to be with experience, and even further, that belief gets in the way of the aliveness of the present moment. To bank on Amaranth’s points, I would add that there are many beautiful aspects to Jesus’ teachings, but that believing something is irrelevant. The beauty in Jesus’ teachings is about relationship. How to relate to each other in a nonviolent, loving manner. How to seek the kingdom of god within oneself, etc., etc. One need not believe in anything to practice these types of actions, thoughts, way of living. What one DOES is far more important than what one believes. Take our president, W, for example. Doesn’t he “believe” in Christ? Yet was starting the war in Iraq “turning the other cheek”? Was it escalating violence or sowing seeds for future peace? The main point I want to make is that saying “I believe this” or “I believe that” is highly irrelevant to the fact that whatever exists IS right now whether we call IT apples or oranges.

Hello C. You write: *Josephus wrote a history of the Jews and mentions a man named Jesus of Nazareth who performed miracles*
Since the 17th century, scholarship has able to prove that the writings are forgeries. Josephus therefore didn’t write about Jesus at all. So your basis for belief is Anonymously edited gospels and Anonymously plagarised Josephus.
You also write: *She stated that the bible is written by an unknown author. Wrong! The bible is written by MANY authors whose names we DO know!*
Can you please provide us with their names and verifiable proof of their authorship? (By the way: it would be prudent of you not to fall for believing Moses as the author of the first 5 books of the bible, because I’ll be able to quote chapter and verse to prove it aint so.)
As for Lee Strobel: in his Case for Christ, he does not interview anyone who is not already a commited christian: ergo, his “experts” are biased in favour of finding for Christ. Any study that has bias is automatically prejudiced and unscientfic. I suggest you read *Challenging the Verdict: A cross examination of Lee Strobel’s Case for Christ” by Earl Doherty.
Finally you say: *But as for me, I willingly choose to believe in God! I choose to believe in HIM …. because when I believe in HIM and I read the Bible…I find peace.You may call me all these names, but even if you called me every bad name in the world and rebuked me over and over, I would still stand by God! Because I don’t find this much peace in anything else! That’s the wonderful thing about God! You feel loved, and cared for…you feel amazing! It is that feeling that makes me and many Christians stand by God. It is not just a religion…it is a ticket to happiness.
You may continue to persecute me…but you (tao) can never…ever… take away the joy I find in HIM.*
Now read that again with a little editing:*
But as for me, I willingly choose to believe in heroin! I choose to believe in heroin …. because when I believe in heroin and I shoot up…I find peace.You may call me all these names, but even if you called me every bad name in the world and rebuked me over and over, I would still stand heroin! Because I don’t find this much peace in anything else! That’s the wonderful thing about drugs! You feel loved, and cared for…you feel amazing! It is that feeling that makes me and many drug addicts stand by heroin. It is not just a drug…it is a ticket to happiness.
You may continue to persecute me…but you (tao) can never…ever… take away the joy I find in getting absolutely shitfaced.*
Now grow up and get off that harmful substance.

Tao,
Could please write something that is a little nicer? Take one of your harshest, roughest comments, then, rewrite a version that is a little nicer. I shall examine the two and make a judgement for myself.
I expect this version to be just a little nicer, nothing more!!!
Thanks for your nicer reply,
Roger

One last comment C; you write about being persecuted. No one here has persecuted you for your beliefs because no one has made you share those beliefs. Far from it in fact, as you’ve actually been asked NOT to share them. And as far as I know, no one wishes to deprive you of your beliefs, so your worries are unfounded at best and paranoid at worst.
What has happened is that people have disagreed with your assesment of reality. Disagreeing with you is not persecution. Asking you to verify your “truth” is not persecution, its simply asking for proof. Ridcule is not persecution: it’s a tool for exposing the ridiculous.
Persecution is depriving people of the amenities of life, the denial of human rights, facing death for belonging to a gender/race/ethnicity/non-ability that someone else wants to dispose of. Until your life is in danger C you CANNOT claim to have been persecuted, because by claiming to be persectuted by website is to trivialise the very real sufferings that thousands experience on a daily basis. All you are C is a little bit miffed.

Adam,
Thanks very much for explaining tao’s comments in a better matter.
Helen,
I know you, Roger and the others aren’t persecuting me. I didn’t say you guys were persecuting me. Tao is persecuting me by calling me names for what I believe. If I called you guys names for not believing in Jesus, then I would be persecuting you guys! That’s all
Now as for the authors of the Bible..here’s a list.
Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians,Colossians,Titus,1&2 Thessalonians, 1&2 Timothy and Philemon were all books written by Paul (several were written by him and Timothy too). And how do we know he wrote these books? Because in all these books, Paul indentifies himself has the author in the 1st verse of all these books. But there’s more!
1&2 Peter…once again, the 1st verse of these books indentifies the author as the apostle Peter.
The Book of James, 1st verse indentifies the author as James.
The Book of Jude, first 1st verse indentifies the author as Jude.
The Book of Revelation, beginning in the 4th verse, the author is identified as John, and is identified 3 more times throughout the book.
In the Old Testament:
The Book of Daniel, the author is identified as Daniel first in chapt 9 verse 2 and secondly in chapter 10 verse 2.
The Book of Jeremiah, the 1st verse identifies the author.
The Book of Isaiah: It is all about Isaiah and was written by him, for throughout the book he says I..such as in the verse “Here am I Lord, send me.”
Ecclesiastes: In the 1st verse, it mentions “The words of the teacher, son of David.” The son of David was Solomon.
Proverbs: The first verse identifies the author by saying “The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel.”
Nehemiah: 1st verse states, “The words of Nehemiah son of Hacaliah.
So you see Helen, we do know the authors of many books in the Bible. There are more books in the Bible with known authors that I left it out for you to check if you want.
When you respond to this post, could you please answer me one question as well? In that cross examination of Lee Strobel’s book..does the guy interview Christians as well as non Christians? Or does he just interview non-christians?

C,
Avoid cookbooking your way through important things. Search within, and find some kind of guidance there. The authors of biblical stories is no big deal. Biblical stories are nice, nothing more.
Again, avoid cookbooking your way……….

Hu? The books that have identified their authors are not just story books…in fact almost all of them are nothing but teachings. The New Testament books are the ones where the apostles are spreading Christ’s teachings.

C previously wrote:
By the way tao, if you don’t believe Jesus ever existed, I suggest you rent a documentary titled “The Case for Christ.” In it, top scholars discuss all the evidence pointing to Jesus’ existence, death & ressurection.
Posted by: C | September 01, 2008 at 06:00 AM
And then later on C wrote:
Tao,
I’ve already acknowledged you don’t believe in anything! Nowhere in the post where I adressed Amaranth did I mention you believing anything!
Posted by: C | September 01, 2008 at 06:00 AM
— So it is clear that C is apparently not cognizant of what she has said previously, and then later on denies it when confronted. Therefore C, you are just so full of shit. You say you don’t like “shit”? … Well then don’t post shit.
C, you did not “acknowledge” anything. And the fact of the matter is that YOU DID SAY THIS:
“By the way tao, if you don’t believe Jesus ever existed, I suggest you rent a documentary titled…”
AND THEN LATER ON YOU CONTRADICT YOURSELF BY SAYING:
“Nowhere in the post where I adressed Amaranth did I mention you believing anything!”
And oh btw C, I also don’t have to “be nice” to people like you who repeatedly spew their self-righteous religious crap out in this blog forum, and then stupidly contradict themselves, and then try to lie about it. Wake up sister. You want “nice”? …then cut out all the phony Jesus/Bible bullshit and just be a down-to-earth real person. If you want to preach Jesus, then go do it elsewhere. just because I find your Jesus jive annoying, does not mean that I am “persecuting” you. You pseudo-christian jesus freaks are all the same… you play on your persecution complex. Grow up and be a mature adult why don’t you.
And my friend Roger… I don’t tell you HOW to express yourself or WHAT to say or not say, so don’t try to tell me how to express myself, or that I should change how I express myself. You are wasting your time and its none of your damn business. I rather like you Roger… just don’t try to tell me how I should speak, or how not to speak.

yo tAo,
I believe Roger was making a joke. I laughed anyway.

Hello again C.
*When you respond to this post, could you please answer me one question as well? In that cross examination of Lee Strobel’s book..does the guy interview Christians as well as non Christians? Or does he just interview non-christians?*
You are missing the point C. Lee Strobel et al have an agenda to prove that Christ existed, just like you have. Doherty et al don’t have an agenda to prove or disprove Christ existed, just like the people on this board. Only Christians care about all this stuff, no one else gives a damn. Let me try and be really really clear on this: EVEN IF YOU COULD PROVE CONCLUSIVELY THAT CHRIST HAD EXISTED IT DOESN’T PROVE HE WAS THE SON OF GOD. That is a matter of belief. I have given reasons why I personally don’t believe which you don’t wish to accept. And I have no interest in converting you to my point of view.
You, C, are the only one on this board to whom all this questioning and answering, proof and evidence matters. If you believe in Strobel, go ahead. If you believe that someone called Jeremiah wrote the book of Jeremiah, go ahead. If you believe in Jesus as the son of god, go ahead. I personally don’t care what you believe.
But then ask yourself why you need all this proof. Your religion, like all religions, requires faith. Faith in unprovable propositions, described by Saint Paul (Heb 11:1)Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Personally I think that the reason you keep trying to prove all this stuff to an uninterested audience is because YOU have serious doubts about all of it. Perhaps you think that if you can convince one of us then maybe it’s all true and you can feel better about it all. Because believing in the unbelievable can cause terrible cognitive dissonance which is not a pretty thing to live with.
And there is the rub. You can’t prove your case and not only that, but you will never be able to prove your case because there is no proof. C, you will simply have to get used to living a life of faith or find a new way to live.
As for myself, the subject has become too tedious to to continue.
Best wishes C.

Helen,
Forgive me Helen if it looks like I’m trying to force you in my direction. I never meant to force it because first of all, forcing a religion is wrong. I respect your belief that there is no Jesus. As for me doubting, I don’t doubt one bit that Jesus is my Saviour and the Son of God. But that’s me. As for you, I thank you for discussing these matters with me. I’ve always wanted to have a sort of debate with a non-christian. Listening to your comments were very interesting even if they didn’t change my thoughts.
As for the book that cross examines Strobel, the only reason I asked if the guy interviewed Christians as well as non-christians, was because I wanted to know. It’s not that I would only pay attention to the Christians,but because I wanted to know if it’s just like Strobel’s book from a negative side (with nonchristians).
Anyway, it seems I must leave now. You’ve all been very interesting to listen to. As for tao, if you read this post, let me just say one thing. I know we have our differences, but I hope you live a good live. It’s been quite hard to read through all the bad words, but in the end it was good talking to you. So long everybody.
P.S. Helen,
God is not like heroine. First off, He’s good for my health. And secondly, He doesn’t destroy my life.

Adam,
Thanks for finding the humor in my comment. That is what I was atempting to do. A little harmless sarcasm, mixed with some comic relief. Humor is one avenue to communication.
Taking one of Tao’s harshest comments and making it a little nicer, would be kinda funny thing to read. Would there be much detectable difference?
Tao,
I still luv ya. However, shame on you for not looking at the humor in my comment. I would never try to tell someone, “how to express themself or what to say or not say.”

Helen, I enjoyed the heroin analogy in your comment. Great point.
So often, people claim that a religion or spiritual path is true and worthwhile because it makes them feel good.
Well, so do lots of things. Like heroin. If feeling good is the mark of religion, there should be a Church of Sex, Church of Methamphetamine, and such.

Greetings again.
In my studies of government, I’ve come across a very interesting theory that I wanted to hear another side’s response to. This theory is: Secularism is actually a religion.
Note: Religion being defined as “Belief in a Supreme Being.”
Eagerly wanting responses to this very interesting issue.

C, not believing in God isn’t a belief. It is the absence of a belief.
The physical universe exists for us. This, we could call supreme being. Not in capital letters, since the universe isn’t a conscious being, so far as we know. Just the highest (because only) form of being.
Humans don’t believe in the physical universe. We experience it. We know it by existing as it and in it. So the “supreme being” of those who don’t believe in a metaphysical reality is physical reality.
Which is right here and now. No belief required.

Perhaps someday fundamentalists will realize that thery’re going to hell faster than the atheists! I’m all for spreading the faith, but lket’s get rid of the fundamentalists and hypocrits first. The only real Christians are the ones with doubt. Remember, the opposite of faith is certainty, and doubt gives us caution. We can’t just stomp on all the other religions, cause they’ve got pretty much the same ideas. Also, where do Atheists get off on all this Christian bashing hmm? Next time you guys stage a debate don’t put a friggin’ extremist on the stage and prentend that we all act like that.

Does anyone want to include some conversations about Satanism in here? Laveyan or theistic satanism. It’s been all about “god” so far….

And maybe some more about paganism???? It was mentioned briefly somewhere.

Satanism…Paganism? Sounds interesting to me. Start a conversation, Truebloodline.
I’ve wondered if these philosophies are any different from traditional religions in regard to demonstrable evidence that they are rooted in reality, rather than imagination.
What do you think?

Why does no one recall??? When Christianity reached out with orphanages hospitals and universities? Most schools started out in community churches before public education. Even science has its roots in the studies of men like Mendel. The debate over whether there is a God or not is more about ego or self comfort. As to the origin of sin and suffering. Can love exist without choice? Adam and eve were given all knowledge except for one thing. Good and evil. Given the planet and everything needed to be its stewards they chose to do what was forbidden because of what happened with Lucifer. Evil is the act of disobedience that brings negative consequences to self and others. Result is we have to learn why God says don’t touch the stove when the iron is red. Just like our parents all the way back to ….Yeah you get the gist.

Personally, I don’t know what to believe.
I am an intelligent man, but when the intricacies of the universse are laid out and with so many mysteries, it is hard for me to not believe in a creator. At the same time, I know that man is far from reaching the pinnacle of knowledge. I think that as long as we exist as a species, we will continue to expand on our knowledge. We have plenty of solid scientific theory that is yet to be tested. Eventually, it will be tested and proven and moved to the category of scientific fact. The fact will be applied into technology that will advance us to the next phase of knowledge and discovery. I guess my point is that just because it is amazing and beyond my grasp doesn’t remove it from natural law and science… especially since I lack knowledge on so many things.
At the same time, my head ponders about whether a creator could have created scientific law and then just supplied matter and energy. I often wonder why things just… are. So there was a big bang… of what? What banged? Why then and not before then? What was the void before then? Did scientific laws apply to the void since the universe as we know it had not yet begun?
When I think about these things, this is when I know only that I exist and I wish I would learn to relish in it before I die. I also wish that I could live longer so that I could see how things advance.
I was raised fundamentalist Christian. I know for sure that I don’t believe in the God that I was raised to believe in. I don’t believe that God would make everything perfect and then set man up for failure and future pain. I don’t believe that God condemns anyone.
Good and evil can even become muddy. There are differing brain chemistries. Predispositions combined with the experiences of an individual again combined with belief sets create a person’s “profile” as you might call it. I don’t believe anyone really sets out to do a deed knowing that they are simply doing evil. The don’t feel revulsion. They feel gratification of some sort. They are satisfying a craving. Those cravings may be abnormal… fed by mental illness. They may be fed by a lifetime of radical ideology being pushed at them. They may be fed by the pressures of living up to the perceptions of their culture or subculture. They may be simply desperate to survive and just lack the intelligence or education to take a less destructive path.
Some would see being “good” as being loving to the others of their subculture while alienating or even annihilating others. Obvious enough. They don’t believe themselves to be wrong or to be evil. They believe themselves to be holy.
The fundamental problem is that man likes exclusivity. We love to single ourselves out and try to prove our superiority whether it be financial, religious, racial… whatever.
Even a debate like this is a segregating factor… believer versus disbeliever. I suppose it can’t be escaped, however, as even though I, myself, dislike this kind of division and the elitism that often goes with it, I have to present my own possibly incorrect views in order to throw my hat into the ring.
My primary belief set is now Buddhism, although I have not set my mind to it in too long. It taught me to not worry about the existence of God. I *do* believe in karma. I believe it may not be a mystical thing so much as it is more like “you reap what you sow”.
I believe that the belief in God shouldn’t be the issue at hand. I believe tolerance is the weak link. Love supercedes tolerance, but sometimes tolerance is the best that can be expected.
I think the religious should take less offense to science. Science is not out to destroy religion. Science is simply there to find what we can. From there, the applications can be wonderful. Science simply ignores religion, as it should. Religion is faith. Science cannot work with faith, or it quits advancing. It has to try to *know* the unknown, not just write it off to a creator. Through this struggle, science advances. Religion has the history of trying to stifle science, not the converse. Scientific “heretics” have been killed by the church many times. Ultimately… I believe that if God is there, science will advance far enough that he will find him.
I just wish that people would quit killing in the name of their respective religions.

To blogger brian. Satanism isn’t a religion, only a philosophy that can include religion. It varies from person to person.

Atheism is on the decline in the scientific community. The fine tuning of the Universe clearly points to a designer. Richard Dawkins summarized his views as “nothing exploded and created everything.” The audience laughed and he was upset. Atheism is simply an anti-intellectual position ignoring many thousands of puzzling design features built into the Universe.