More criticism of Radha Soami Satsang Beas

Bravo!

To all who believe that salvation lies in another human being:
The following may be somewhat hard to accept, especially for the die-hard faithful Sant Mat and RSSB believers, who may chance to visit this site and who get so far as to read the comments. I am sure they will likely do as they usually do, and remain closed-minded in their self-imposed tunnel vision and rigid dogmatic beliefs. Yet this is what will separate the wheat from the chaff, the true seekers from those who merely want some supposed mystic, “saint”, or savior to magically rescue them from their plane of worldly existence, and carry them up to some imagined higher heavenly abode. Sadly, such people waste their entire initiated lives believing and relying on a faulty premise which has no basis in spiritual reality. And the really sad thing is that all along, they have the real answer, the real truth, the divinity, the treasure of peace, knowledge, bliss, and freedom right within their own Heart, their own consciousness and being. The sad thing is that they have been willingly duped into thinking and believing that their salvation, their liberation, their ultimate fulfillment will be gained by following another very human being. This premise could not be farther from the real truth of the matter.
Why?
Because what appears as a multitude of separate individual beings, is really an illusion which stems from ignorance. No being of consciousness has ever been, is now, or will ever be, separate or apart from totality. This totality is also refered to as the One Self, the Atman, Brahman, Buddha nature, the Ineffable, God, the Great Spirit, and the Tao, etc. This totality is unborn, non-dual, and infinite. Of the nature of perfect peace, pure awareness, everlasting bliss (no sorrow), and unbounded freedom. This totality is the Heart and nature of all manifest beings. Nothing exists apart from it. It is not in a particular place, plane, or realm. All phenomena, dimensions, space, time, and mind, are conditional dream-like appearances within the primordial pure Awareness which is this totality. Therefore, no seemingly “other” being exists in reality. Only the One Being, the One Self, exists for all eternity. That being the case, there is no possibility or necessity to rely on another apparently separate being for one’s spiritual salvation, enlightenment, and liberation. The one who seeks such, is the very same one who is none other than that One Self. All that is needed, is for each and every conscious being to accept, and to abide in and as their own true nature, the One Self, which is perfect peace, ever-lasting happiness, and spiritual freedom. The only purpose of an apparently “outer” Guru, is to reflect and direct one towards the discovery, awakening, realization, and abidance as the One Self, which is the “inner” Guru. All other considerations, beliefs, philosophies, teachings, gurus, masters, and organizations are simply unecessary obstructions and impediments to the pure dharma of Self-realization and one’s abidance in perfect Self-knowledge.

As a neophyte initiate (3 years “on the Path”), your comments are fascinating. My understanding is that Sant Mat is not a religion, but a philosophy and way of life to help one reach “totality.” I thought satsangis were encouraged to be open-minded and tolerant of others, regardless of faith, nationality, or political belief(although this current republican regime does get me going!) I’m under the impression that we’re not supposed to follow or chase Master, but, instead, go inside to find our “inner” being or guru.
Is it the Sant Mat teachings you object to, or do you think the growth of RSSB is causing “organization” to occur, and people to lose sight of the teachings?
Anyway, the comments are great “food for thought;” it’s always good to hear/read other’s views.
My mantra is: “Live life your way — your inner voice knows what’s right for you.”

There is some hesitation to comment upon other commentators comments, in as much as this is Brian’s Church of the Churchless web-log, and it seems more appropriate to offer comments which are related directly to the subject matter of his postings. But since the previous commenter made a mention of “totality”, apparently in reference to my previous comment, here is a brief response:
Commentator wrote: “My understanding is that Sant Mat is not a religion, but a philosophy and way of life to help one reach totality.”
Response: Sant Mat and its followers do not like to think of it as a “religion”, but rather a “science”. But the simple fact is that it is clearly a particular theistic philosophical belief system, which includes a rigidly defined method of practicing mantra and meditation. It also includes a strong emphasis on personal devotion and sunquestioning surrender to the spiritual authority of its leader, who is referred to as the “master”. These elements comprise what is commonly defined as a religion, or perhaps more appropriately a cult. The only difference between a religion and a cult, is the size of the body of adherents. Since Sant Mat has tens or hundreds of thousands of followers, it could be considered to be a minor religion.
Regarding Sant Mat being a “way of life”, I don’t think that is a correct assumption. In fact, Sant Mat makes a point of telling people that they do n ot have to chage their way of life, except for ‘rules’ about diet, sex, and daily meditation.
Regarding Sant Mat being a “way to reach totality”, I would have to say that Sant Mat does not mention “totality” anywhere that I know of. The specific goal of Sant Mat is something which is not really clearly defined in the literature, except for a general idea of reaching the higher spiritual plane referred to as “Sach Khand”. To my knowledge about Sant Mat, which is quite extensive, the focus is not on the awakening of real Self-knowledge, or realization of one’s own true nature. The entire focus is placed upon repetitive mantra meditation, visualization and devotion to the form of the master, and seva. There is little or no orientation or any discussion about the One Self, Atman/Brahman, and the sadhana of Self-inquiry (Atma-vichara)leading directly to Self-realization. Sant Mat is much more dualistic, theistic, and concerned about inner subtle plane cosmology, guru-bhakti, and mantra meditation.
Commentator wrote: “I thought satsangis were encouraged to be open-minded and tolerant of others, regardless of faith, nationality, or political belief
Response: I suppose they are, but most of those who I have met or observed, and that is a fairly large number, are NOT open-minded or tolerant. As a matter of fact, most of the satsangis I have seen among the most narrow-minded, judgemental, un-sociable, intolerant, spiritually un-informed, and un-enlightened people around. I am sorry to have to report that, but that is my honest experience.
Commentator wrote: “I’m under the impression that we’re not supposed to follow or chase Master, but, instead, go inside to find our “inner” being or guru.”
Response: If that is so, then why do so many satsangis run around acting as if “the master’ is God himself ? I have heard what the RSSB authority says, but I do not see that in practice. Furthermore, Sant Mat does teach “going inside”, but not to realize one’s true Self. The whole emphasis is upon an inner/outer dichotomy, where one is supposed to dissociate from body, and meditate upon shabda to experience and travel through subtle planes to reach a supposed higher spiritual plane beyond the causal plane. This is all very dualistic cosmological mental projection. It has absolutely nothing to do with the direct realization of Self-knowledge, which is true enlightenment and true liberation. If one studies the teachings of the true Sages, one will begin to understand the difference.
Commentator wrote: “Is it the Sant Mat teachings you object to, or do you think the growth of RSSB is causing “organization” to occur, and people to lose sight of the teachings?”
Response: If you are asking me, then I would have to say BOTH. I object to the teachings because they contain too much irrelevant, dualistic, and conceptual dogma. I object to the organization because it is a huge impediment and obstruction to an individual’s Self-realization. The whole thing could bve done away with, for the betterment of all concerned. All that is necessary is a true Sage, and the clear and direct teaching which will lead one straight-away to their discovery and realization of Self-knowledge, which is true spiritual enlightenment and liberation. Organizations have only one purpose — and that is to perpetuate the existence of the organization. Period. The Truth does not need an organization. The Truth is the Heart of every being.
Commentator wrote: “Live life your way — your inner voice knows what’s right for you.”
Response: Well that is certainly a good way to go. But I would have to say that “your way” is of your own true Self, and not by following the “Sant Mat-Radha Soami” way.

I loved every point of your “rebuttal,” shall we say, particularly, “Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell; spirituality is for those who have already been there.” Oh my. *claps*
Oh, and it’s really nice to hear that you’ve found Taoism and Buddhism so inspiring, as I’m taking Asian Philosophy next semester!

After giving up on RS because well at first I grew bored of my intelligence being insulted with the same repetitive format for years and secondly I began a different and effective meditation system.
I think, now the underlying factor amidst all “in it” or “out of it” pseudo cult/religious/spiritual systems is freedom and wanting it in one whatever form.
I think (as I have done) we can talk about why, what, how of RS until the cows come home but we have to beneath this do our own homework as to if it’s right or wrong. As stated above I feel it is about freedom. In the west, if you live in a well industrialised commercial environment, you are exposed to a large facet of the world at your fingertips. If you are inhibited from this environment either via a system like RS or other means, practical ones like family or abusive spouses or groups and organisations you are part of, your freedom will be dampened and suppressed.
I think RS is a system totally created for the Punjabi world and is difficult to fashion effectively in the west. If you go to the Punjab and see the village environments you’ll find preaching of the guru is akin to an Indian form of giving love to Elvis Presley.
You see it works in the climes and attitudes of an Indian system because that is where it was created and formulated. It is not formulated for the west. For all the acts of immoral behaviour I have seen at Satsang Centers that my nearest and dearest atheist buddies wouldn’t dare think of, I believe we’re looking at a breakdown in the system. Kaboom.
I’m in a totally different system now where I nourish and develop through my own experiences and my meditation is better. It’s not a secluding system as it embraces all individuals and doesn’t label you as an us (RS) and them (outside world) mentality.
Spirituality is about fitting into your environment, in balance and working from that. Going against your environment appears unholy and ungodlike.
Plus Brian, your posts are interesting but extremely long. I fear in my sneakers and the size of my scrollbar decreased to micrometer length when I load up your page. Not that I don’t want to read it but I don’t have the time. Could you please, with the blessing of the Gods do a lunchtime version?
Kindest RS :o) Regards

Dear dear Brian, I am so happy that my comments spurred you on to heights of industrial-strength musings. I was surprised that you chose to rewrite and somewhat rethink your earlier reply to my original post, which I wish I had saved. You seem to have had a change of heart while retracing my reply. I do not change my position nor my words one little bit. Because it is what I know, and not merely what I think or feel.
And in rewriting I fear you made me look shallow, while you come off as the big bad bear berating a spiritual buddy–hold me back. I will accept your comments not so much in the spirit that they were given but in the way that I need to not react to them.
I like your last line because it is not only amusing but it is sooooo true. Yup, been to hell and don’t want to go back there.
For those who are following Buddhism as a path I have only one thing to say…it is dead as a doornail as a path. You can use it tenets of meditation and practice for warmup, which I did for ten years, and you can read their wonderful books on the subject of death and dying which I also did, but you can’t get too far inside with its hairsplitting, which I also tried. Like it or not my friend RSSB is the wave of the future.
It is practiced as a religion by many. That is due to the confusion of Bhakti yoga versus Sound current yoga, they are not one and the same. The path of love and in some ways Buddhism is one — which for many — is a line of least resistance. IT is a karmic path for those who follow it, nothing more. It means that you have worn those ochre robes before or maybe worn them while we all traisped through the woods of India behind the beautiful Buddha (who is still beautiful by the way). Take them off, they will do you little good. Buddhism as a path just like Judaism is no longer viable.
I stand by my reply about your dealings with RSSB. Love you too and your Sound bites.
Netemara

BEAS SATSANG, AND THE MODERN WORLD.
The following are some constructive points concerning Radha Soami Satsang Beas in the modern world.
THE POWER OF THE INTERNET.
When Gurinder Singh became Satguru of RSSB he tried to exert some control over the organisational aspects of the movement. One of these was an attempt to “forbid” Satsangis accessing the internet to see anything good, or bad about RSSB or any other shabd yoga sect. This was arguably an unwise move simply because information cannot be controlled by anyone, or anything. The internet is a part of life whether we like it, or not.
SOME PROBLEMS WITH THE OFFICIAL HISTORY OF RSSB.
The RSSB presents it own version of RS history. Though undoubtedly many other shabd yoga sects recognised, or unrecognised would contest its views. There are a number of points to made about the RSSBs version of its history.
1.Just before Shiv Dayal Singh died he left a Will in which it is quite clear that he did not have a master. He was born “almighty” unlike the RSSB claim that this was possibly not the case.
2. From the Will Jaimal Singh was not commissioned to undertake the work of mastership. Dayal Singh instead chose his wife Radha Ji who in turn insisted that Rai Saligram should be the Satguru of the time.
3. Saligram, or Huzur Maharaj introduced the Name Radhasoami as being like the Sound of highest Spiritual Region. He further claimed that it was higher than those known to the masters of the sant tradition. Dayal Singh himself also apparently accepted this notion towards the end of his life. He had been teaching the original sant mat tradition, and initially used the Five Holy Names rather than the Holy Name of Radhasoami.
4. After the death of Huzur Maharaj a Central Administrative Council, or CAC was set up. It wanted to make sure among other things that there were no serious splits within the movement of the RS Faith. This though had the opposite effect. The first to split from it was Jaimal Singh who could not abide with its rulings. Moreover, he re-introduced the Five Holy Names, and claimed that Saligrams introduction of the One Holy Name was “unauthentic”. In other words, his disciples spiritual reach would be just below the highest Region where the Sound Radhasoami, or something like it could be heard resounding. RSSB have insisted that the highest Sound is actually indescribable in any language, and the notion that an earthly Name can describe it to any degree is perhaps laughable.
5. The Beas edition of Sar Bachan or the writings of Shiv Dayal Singh do not give the Holy Name Radhasoami but instead it is replaced by Five Holy Names of earlier masters of the sant tradition which notably flourished in the middle ages. There is a certain other very “minor” alteration to the text. The Beas version reveals that the Satguru who has initiated the disciple is with him, or her for life even if He is no longer in the world. The Dayal Singh/Saligram (or Soamibagh Satsang) believes that the successor of the predessor must be accepted as the new Living Teacher even though the Satsangi may have been initiated by the deceased former. In spite of this, essentially the key point to understand here is Dayal Singh, and Saligrams teachings are virtually identical to RSSB.
6. Since the time of Sawan Singh written Wills have become the norm to avoid successorship rivalry. This is a good thing but some RS groups notably Dayalbagh Satsang have for instance used what has been termed a spiritual election to determine who should come after their previous guru.
The above are the key controversies concerning the RSSB. My data comes notably from the prolific writings of S.D. Maheshwari of Soamibagh Satsang whose line of Satgurus has “temporarily” ceased. His group though is sometimes regarded as the “parent rock” of the RS Faith. Dr. Agam Prasad Mathur wrote The Radhasoami Faith; A Historical Study sometime ago, and more recently a more “objective” account exists by Professor Juergensmeyer entitled The Radhasoami Reality…
THE PROBLEM WITH INTERNET DATA..
There are a few websites on the internet which have come up with some “libellous” information concerning certain branches of the RS Faith. Such info should not be taken seriously unless there is independent corroboration for it from other sources.
However, my take on it all is this. I do personally believe “mistakes” have been made by some “Satgurus” but they may well be deliberate tests of faith. Moreover, they may not matter because it is OUR FAITH, AND BELIEF in a master which ultimately counts. If he, or she is indeed “imperfect” as a person in every respect then a higher power from within will draws us to a real teacher. I seem to recall in Sar Bachan that Dayal Singh said that we should not worry about such matters. Again, what matters is OUR FAITH, AND BELIEF. Indeed, if we are to believe Faqir Chand it would appear that it is our HIGHER SELF which manifests as the Masters Radiant Form, and takes us up. The outer “Satguru” perfect, or imperfect is essential only in so far as he, or she acts as something visible, and inspiring for us on the earthly plane of existence.
It is interesting here to point out that the Beas Satgurus continually refer to themselves in the third person. This may not simply be a show of humility but rather an indication that the REAL SATGURU IS YOUR HIGHER SELF. In effect, the Beas Satgurus may be what might be termed initiating masters in varying degrees of evolution who act on behalf of their predessor. This ofcourse may be complete nonesense, but who knows? Another factor in all this is such Masters would still need to belong to a line of Teachers which had least one Adept who was a true Satguru with full spiritual, and psychic powers on the physical plane. This is a big subject, and I have no time now to enlarge upon it. Maybe in another post.

Netemara, you seem to be under the impression that I wrote this post. I did write the introduction, but everything past the “Here it is:” and dashed line was written by my correspondent, not me.

Netemara wrote: “For those who are following Buddhism as a path I have only one thing to say…it is dead as a doornail as a path.”
To be quite honest, this is one of the most absurd, ignorant, ill-informed, and nonsense comments and opinions that I have ever read…. I guess then Netemara would also consider all the profoundly enlightened Buddhist sages such as Bodhidharma; the numerous Chinese Chan (Zen)masters like Dogen, Huang Po, etc etc.; the Indian Buddhist sages like Atisha, Vimalamitra, Manjushrimitra, Padmasambhava, etc.; the Tibetan Buddhist sages like Naropa, Tilopa, Marpa, Milarepa, etc.; and the modern era enlightened masters such as the the line of the Karmapas, going from present day back 17 generations, the Nyingma master Dudjom Rimpoche, and on and on and on …. all to be invalid and “dead as a door-nail”… How clearly absurd, un-educated, and ignorant. Netemara would do better to get some real insight and education before making such preposterous statments. No one who has any real spiritual knowledge, would give such an opinion a second thought.
Netemara wrote: “but you can’t get too far inside with its hairsplitting, which I also tried.
Well, I myself have a great knowledge and first-hand experience of the profound Truth which is contained in esoteric Buddhism, and I have no idea what “hair-splitting” you are refering to. Either all the enlightened Buddhist sages and masters are simply “BS” — or your limited knowledge and experience of esoteric Buddhism is faulty. I would have to choose the latter.
Netemara wrote: “Like it or not my friend RSSB is the wave of the future.”
I disagree. The “wave of the future” is not cultism, philosophy, or narrow-mided dogmatic belief systems such as RSSB. The “wave of the future” lies beyond all isms, beliefs, practices, yogas, gurus, religions, and/or followers. The wave of the future is Self-knowledge, Self-empowerment, Self-realization, the enlightened state of One Heart, One Self, One Reality, ie: non-Duality.
Netemara wrote: “Buddhism as a path just like Judaism is no longer viable.”
The “Buddhism” which you are referring to is Buddhist ‘religion’, not the esoteric Buddhist path of awakening, realization, liberation. Religion is all the same, no matter whether it is Christian, Judaic, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Bahai, Jain, or any of the other numerous lesser religions. Religion is not important. What is important is each and every being’s awakening and direct realization of true Self-knowledge, enlightenment. Only Self-realization will bring ever-lasting and indestructable Peace, Knowledge, Happiness, and Freedom.
I would suggestand hope that all readers proceed in this direction, which lies within one’s own Being and Awareness, and not waste precious time going in other directions.

Robert Searle wrote: “…the REAL SATGURU IS YOUR HIGHER SELF. In effect, the Beas Satgurus may be what might be termed initiating masters in varying degrees of evolution who act on behalf of their predessor.” …. “Another factor in all this is such Masters would still need to belong to a line of Teachers which had least one Adept who was a true Satguru with full spiritual, and psychic powers on the physical plane.”
I would suggest and add that the real Sat-Guru is the not just a “higher self”, but The Self, the One Self, the only Self there is.
Robert Searle wrote: “the Beas Satgurus may be what might be termed initiating masters in varying degrees of evolution who act on behalf of their predessor.”
Now you are talking. This is much more likely to be the case, rather than any of the the R.S. guru-leaders being real genuine Sat-Gurus.
Robert Searle wrote: “…such Masters would still need to belong to a line of Teachers which had least one Adept who was a true Satguru with full spiritual, and psychic powers on the physical plane.”
This is where we diverge or disagree. Yes, a true genuine Sat-Guru does pass on a valid teaching, and that is essential for effective spiritual sadhana. But the idea and myth that spiritual and psychic siddhis (powers) are important, necessary, and required for one to be a Sat-Guru, is entirely false. Being a genuine “Sat-Guru” has nothing to do with siddhis (powers). It has everything to do with Self-realization and Self-knowledge.
Also, the idea that one can achieve true spiritual advancement or enlightenment based only on the power coming through a surrogate, proxy, or substitute Guru, who is merely parroting the teachings of a previous genuine Sat-Guru, is also erreoneous. The teaching, provided it is from a genuinely Self-realized Sat-Guru may be efficatious, but belief that a spirtual leader/teacher is a true Sat-Guru, when in reality that is not the case, is to believe in, to follow, and to depend on a fiction.
All that is needed is Self-inquiry and the application of a valid teaching, coming from a genuine Sat-Guru, and sadhana (spiritual practice). No belief, no faith, no proxy or substitute Guru, and no organization is needed for the realization of Self-knowledge, which is enlightenment and liberation from samsara.

Netemara wrote: “For those who are following Buddhism as a path I have only one thing to say…it is dead as a doornail as a path.”
To be quite honest, this is one of the most absurd, ignorant, ill-informed, and nonsense comments and opinions that I have ever read…. I guess then Netemara would also consider all the profoundly enlightened Buddhist sages such as Bodhidharma; the numerous Chinese Chan (Zen)masters like Dogen, Huang Po, etc etc.; the Indian Buddhist sages like Atisha, Vimalamitra, Manjushrimitra, Padmasambhava, etc.; the Tibetan Buddhist sages like Naropa, Tilopa, Marpa, Milarepa, etc.; and the modern era enlightened masters such as the the line of the Karmapas, going from present day back 17 generations, the Nyingma master Dudjom Rimpoche, and on and on and on …. all to be invalid and “dead as a door-nail”… How clearly absurd, un-educated, and ignorant. Netemara would do better to get some real insight and education before making such preposterous statments. No one who has any real spiritual knowledge, would give such an opinion a second thought.
Dear author:
You did not read the qualifier I put in there did you? I wrote “as a path” that means everything. You said I said it was invalid in terms of information or enlightenment about spirituality. I did not say that. The Sixth Patriarch (founder of the school of sudden enlightenment) makes it very clear that enlightenment is a myth.
I said or meant that if followed as a path TODAY — in this age, as a path — it is dead. I stand by that. You can garner all the wealth from those traditions you will –it is intellectual circus. Because whatever you attained to in past lives within Buddhism or any discipline returns with you and is cumulative in subsequent lifetimes. That occurs whether you study those masters and their scriptures or not. Burn the books who needs them? That is why so many of the statues have been destroyed–it’s a message.
That however is not why it is SO dead. It is dead because I say so.
Few if any people ever agree with me on anything and I’ve been called everything now and when I was in the body of HPB.
HPB who brought the light to the West from the East and who at the same time singlehandedly invigorated Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam was also(see Salig Ram notes above)the spawn for RSSB–she is the final word.
Netemara AKA HPB
I am a visitor here and maintain my own blog on the subject.

Okay Brian, I was under that impression. I saw the qualifier but it was unclear because no name was used. I was wondering about the part that said “with my correspondant’s permission….” Is it your wife who wrote the rebuttal?
I was wondering why the “rethink” and thought it was on your part. I liked what you wrote better 🙂 BTW she or whomever should make it clearer that it is not you. Sorry, I am stupid sometimes. I am Atlantean and not Aryan by nature.
Anyway, my reply is for whomever wrote that and not yourself. I will make the correction. Thank you.
Netemara
PS Did your wife write that? She was being nasty I guess.

Someone wrote:
“In Netemara’s world, it appears this would be tit-for-tat. Na na na na na na.”
That would be the law of cause and effect. We — no one including yourself — don’t get out of here unless all is paid up. Are you delusional? Seems so.
Here’s my parable for the day:
I created a small birdhenge (it has stones in a cirle) where I feed and water the wild birds. The common sparrows come there most often. But lately beautiful blue jays and cardinals have taken up residence and come to feed daily. Now, should I put up a sign that reads: “This area is for beautiful and enlightened birds only!! Sparrows keep out!!” Hmmm, or should I close it down because sparrows and grackles are there along with the more beautiful species, and I don’t want the two to mix because some are “undesirable?”
Or perhaps I should put up a sign reading “Please feed here ONLY rare ones?”
Such is the dilemma of religions, schools, sects, jobs, marriages and anything else. The spirit cannot read. We must take and accept the good with the bad.
These things were not created for either the “enlightened” nor for the “hardened criminals.” Anyone with breath in their lungs is both. And you can take that to the bank.
Finally, if you or anyone here thinks you have never “sinned nor been extremely evil” in any past lifetime then you would not have progressed this far to poke your finger in Netemara’s face.
Netemara

Netemara wrote: “For those who are following Buddhism as a path I have only one thing to say…it is dead as a doornail as a path.” … “I wrote “as a path” that means everything.”
Response: Whether you call it a “path”, a teaching, or a way, it boils down to the same thing, which is the universal and timeless truth or dharma which is the fundemental basis and teaching of Buddhism. To say that the path of Dharma (Buddhism) is “dead” is simply ludicrous. The only reason that you could possibly have such an ignorant point of view, is that you have no understanding of dharma, and no awakened Self-knowledge. It reminds me of the phrase: “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”. As I said previously, it would be advisable to gain a more complete knowledge, understanding, and some realization, before you go making such nonsense criticisms of either the Buddhist “path”, its teachings, or its teachers.
Netemara wrote: “The Sixth Patriarch (founder of the school of sudden enlightenment) makes it very clear that enlightenment is a myth.”
Response: What you are saying is a mis-interpretation of the actual original meaning. It was not meant that spiritual awakening, realzation, and the event of enlightenment itself is “a myth”. What was actually meant was that enlightenment is not something apart from, or intrinsically different, than one’s own true nature, ie: the Buddha nature. It is not that the awakening and state of realization called “enlightenment” is a “myth”, but rather that all the ideas and concepts about enlightenment are relative and limited, and therefore myths.
Netemara wrote: “I said or meant that if followed as a path TODAY — in this age, as a path — it is dead. I stand by that.” “… it is intellectual circus.”
Response: The essence of Buddhism, which is called the ‘santana dharma’ or eternal truth, is never dead. Not today, not yesterday, and not tomorrow. To think that the santana or etenal dharma is somehow irrelevant or “dead” in the present time or “age”, is not to understand what it is. Furthermore, the only “intellectual circus” that is performing, is your own mental constructs and duality. It is not the Truth or Buddha Dharma which is faulty, it is your own intellect which is faulty. The “circus” is your own mind, not the Buddhist dharma.
Netemara wrote: “… whether you study those masters and their scriptures or not. Burn the books who needs them? That is why so many … have been destroyed — it’s a message.”
Response: I did not say anything about studying “masters and their scriptures”. I mentioned various enlightened Buddhist sages to show that the path of Buddhism is not “dead”. I myself, have absolutely no need to rely on “masters and their scriptures”. Furthermore, once one is actually awakened into Self-knowledge, which is referred to as “enlightened”, books are simply no longer needed. But for you to say “burn the books – who needs them” is not just un-enlightened, it is pure stupidity and somewhat draconian. Enlightenment itself, is certainly not in books. However, books are one form of repository for spiritual teachings, which can and do guide aspirants towards the proper direction. An genuine awakened Sage does not need books, but those who would follow the teachings of the Sages can and do benefit from books to a certain extent.
Netemara wrote: ” It is dead because I say so.”
Response: Just because ”’YOU”’ say so ? … Unfortunately I must say that actually, it seems that you get increasingly and ridiculously more absurd and dogmatically self-assured, every step you take. You would never stand up for more than a minute in an academic forum. You would be laughed out before you could say another word. You foolishness is an insult to intelligent debate.
Netemara wrote: “Few if any people ever agree with me on anything and I’ve been called everything now” …. “and when I was in the body of HPB.”
Response: Well I can really see why. I stronly recommend that you seek professional help, counseling, and therapy. You appear to be somewhat delusional and schizophrenic. I am sure it is likely that you will not admit this, but I must advise you towards getting help to resolve what I see as obvious delusions and irrational thinking.
Netemara wrote: “HPB who ……. (was) the spawn for RSSB — she is the final word.”
Response: Perhaps “HPB” (Helena P. Blavatsky) is “the final word” for Netemara, but only in the opinion Netemara. Again, this is a clear indication of a generally irrational and delusional mind-set. Until Netemara resolves these irrational notions, you will not significantly progress towards true Self-knowledge and enlightenment.

Who Am I? seems to be proving about himself what he is so hell bent on trying to prove about Netemara “that he is no idea what the hell he is saying…” and furthermore if he seeks to make personal attacks on Netemara, which I have not done on Who–I am just talking about myself (which makes people mad for some reason) and what I know–not what I think and not what I’ve read in Ramana books or on his groups.
It is far above the horizon for Who to know where I am coming from thus I forgive his personal attacks. Beings such as myself are frequently subject to personal attacks. But in the bargain he has shown that he is hardly an awakened individual.
Back to the drawing board for you Who. Sorry Who, but I will not address your attacks tit-for-tat. I don’t have the stomach for touching your emotional vomit.
Netemara

To Netemara:
Netemara wrote: “I am just talking about myself (which makes people mad for some reason) and what I know…”
The problem with most of what Netemara says about what Netemara supposedly “knows”, is that it is entirely in opposition to and in contradiction with, the real Self-knowledge that all the genuine enlightened Sages from time immemorial have realized, known, spoken, and taught.
The Truth can not be monopolized or manipulated by anyone just to suit their whims and purposes. Either one awakens and comes into accord and alignment with the Truth, or one does not. Those who have truly awakened and realized the Truth are always in total understanding, agreement, and harmony.
Netemara’s views are not in such agreement with all of the genuine true Sages, past or present, including Who Am I. The Way of Truth is not one of rigid opinions, ego-centricity, and hard-headedness. The Way of Truth is one of discovery, surrender, and realization. All opinions are simply a testimony of ignorance. Self-knowledge is not an opinion.
For Who Am I, there is never any loss or incompleteness, nor is there any reality in personal opinions. There is only the Truth … to awaken into, and to abide as.

Netemara wrote: “It is far above the horizon for Who to know where I am coming from…”
Yes… Netemara is indeed “coming from” “far above”, and that is simply because hot-air rises. I myself prefer keeping my feet upon the ‘Ground of Being’.
Netemara wrote: “Back to the drawing board for you Who.”
Yes….”Who” is always at the drawing board, working effortlessly to eliminate all the little bugs, flaws, and bits of misfit data like the infamous netemara virus which creeps in and spoils the integrity of the divine design of pure non-duality.

I have been reading the messages on this site about RSSB, speaking from someone who was brought up in a RSSB family, but chose not to follow it until now (28 years on)totally independantly, I have to say that what I have learnt is this.
Not to get caught up in finer detail, not to try and let others into what is a very private and personal path, and to always try and LOVE, as this is the gift that has been given to us by God, which we all can agree on being RS or not. But most importantly to keep it SIMPLE!! There is so much Jargon and technicalitity going on through these messages that even I am confused as to what should be done!! I dread to think what someone who has never come across a spiritual path of any form might amke of it!!
I am not saying that what anyone on this site is saying is wrong, it is their own personal account and experience. But I just wanted to say, that since finding my path through RSSB, I cannot imagine leading another way of life. I can imagine there are many other paths that would suit other people, which comes down to a case of trying and finding out. I can’t see that RSSB path will be a way for everyone, which is why Maharji says, “If you beleive it then follow it, if you don’t, then simply don’t”
Personally I think as humans we do get too caught on results and technicalities. But my own understanding is the knowledge of – doing this should make this happen- is not the same as understanding – I will do this and I know that this will happen. The rules of meditation don’t work for everyone, but at this point the question ought to be asked – “what are my reasons for doing this?”. If it is escapism, recognition or even a little ego massaging, then obviously it will not work. If it is truly to find God, then one step of yours towards God DOES invoke ten steps from God to towards you.
I agree that many RS followers are very defensive and intolerant of others. But I beleive that being RS (or whatever path you may choose) is going to be whatever you MAKE it to be . Yes, we do need a filter out all the crap, but talking and feeding crap has always been a very good talent of us HUMANS, don’t listen to them. I leave my faith in my own soul, and the word of my Master, who I know will always tell me what is right, and not those who are still caught up in the mesh of karmas we call life.
As far as the point made about chasing the Master, I have only had direct contact with him on one ocassion. Since then I have used the guidance given to me by my Master to look for God on a spiritual level. The Master was only a reference point, and I believe that his only role in my spiritual fulfillment was to help me “get my foot on the first rung”. Once meditation was practised according to the, what I find are simple rules, the rest was acheived through my own merit.
IT CAN BE DONE.
Radhaswoami.
If you ask me is RSSB organisational, I would have to say yes and no. But this is not a doing of the Master himself, it is a doing of the followers, who cannot let go of ordinary things like culture, intellect, and ego. If it were not for these things, I should imagine that the whole path (RS) would be a completely different experience for anyone follwoing it.

Who wrote: “The problem with most of what Netemara says about what Netemara supposedly “knows”, is that it is entirely in opposition to and in contradiction with, the real Self-knowledge that all the genuine enlightened Sages from time immemorial have realized, known, spoken, and taught.”
This is totally laughable because that is precisely with whom my experiences agree–the “insiders.”
You have told on yourself Who. Personally, I don’t care what you say about my Truth or lack of it. Why? Because it is incorruptible.
Netemara

To Harri:
Harri wrote: “…is RSSB organisational, I would have to say yes and no. But this is not a doing of the Master himself, it is a doing of the followers, who cannot let go of ordinary things like culture, intellect, and ego.”
Response:
Most of what you had to say about your own personal feelings and faith in the RSSB, you are certainly entitled to.
However, I would strongly disagree with Harri’s belief that: “…this is not a doing of the Master himself, it is a doing of the followers.”
You cannot arbitrarily separate the “master” from the organization and its policies. The master is the supreme leader, the director, and the final authority over all of RSSB. Everything which goes on in and about RSSB is sanctioned, directed, and controlled by him. It is only with his approval that anything is done or not. To pretend otherwise is pathetically ignorant, fanciful, blind, and without reason. It is totally absurd to say that the “master” is not responsible for the organization of RSSB as a whole. The “followers” are not directing things at RSSB, they are only following directions.
It is this kind of thing which so many people use to evade facing the real truth about their leaders and their false beliefs and presumptions. It is a form of self-imposed narrow-mindedness, blindness, and wishful-thinking.
Harri also wrote: “…not to try and let others into what is a very private and personal path, …as this is the gift that has been given to us by God, which we all can agree on being RS…”
Response:
I would say that most, if not all, of the people (including myself) who specifically make comments about RSSB on this web-log, are now or have been, R.S. initiates. Therefore, even though RSSB may tend to be relatively “private and personal”, the particular commentators who comment on RSSB on this web-log, are not necessarily outsiders.
Furthermore, to say: “…this is the gift that has been given to us by God, which we all can agree on…” is merely Harri’s own personal opinion, and not necessarily something which is true, or that everyone agrees upon. Harri is making an assumption based only upon belief and faith, not upon knowledge and truth. There is no clear evidence that Sant Mat and Radha Soami is a “gift given by God”. This is merely presumption. Perhaps Harri should do some real study of the actual documented history of Sant Mat, and specifically the R.S. branch which stems from Shiv Dayal Singh. There is much to indicate that the particular R.S. path is a creation and invention of Shiv Dayal Singh, and not a gift from “God”.
It appears that Harri is similar to many sincere people who take things only on superficial face value, and they do not truly investigate deeply and verify the evidence for what they are accepting, believing, and practicing. Such folks are well-meaning, but ill-informed and mislead.
I have made it as clear as possible in all of my comments, that belief will not lead to salvation, liberation, or enlightenment. Enlightenment requires true awakening and realization of the one’s own true nature. There is no other way around this. Mere belief and faith are not enough. You may understand and embrace this truth now, or many years down the road, but you must embrace it someday, and you will never reach liberation, enlightenment, “sach khand”, until such actual Self-realization occurs. Until then, satisfaction with mere belief and simple faith, is only more religion.

Netemara:
Regarding your statements: “This is totally laughable”; “Personally, I don’t care what you say”; and “my Truth…is incorruptible.”
If this is all you can come up with, then it is really you yourself who are the one who is “laughable”, and your comments are pathetic.
As I had mentioned previously in another comment, it is quite likely that I will not be commenting much more for awhile, or even longer. This is primarily due to the relatively poor reception and obvious negative resistance to my comments, offerings, and elucidations about Self-inquiry and real Self-knowledge. This personal negativity and resistance is coming primarily from other commentators such as yourself.
There is far too much argumentation and focus on various rigid spiritual ideas and notions, dogmatic beliefs, and the comparison of and defense of such perspectives for my liking.
I prefer to engage in productive discussion oriented towards real awakening and the direct realization of Truth. Such is termed true Satsanga.
I have little or no interest in discussing cults and their beliefs, intellectual exercises, or wrestling with other people’s rigid concepts and attachments and their acquired beliefs about their spiritual paths, or even about other commentators narcissistic identifications and deluded spiritual notions in general.

It is very easy to criticise a good person,organisation,saint of other religion than ours.If U had realised what is there inside UR body as per teachings of RSSB U would not have passed such comments.First clean UR self then think about others.Try to keep UR small family member together will tell U to how to live in world.

To I Singh:
It is not clear just who you are responding to, but if your comment was directed in response to myself, then I must tell you that you do not know the facts about myself, nor do you know the whole truth about RSSB, and so therefore your conclusion is simply baseless and incorrect.
I Singh stated: “It is very easy to criticise a good person,organisation,saint of other religion…”
Reply: What makes you assume that so-and-so is a “good person” or “saint” ? Just because you yourself may think that someone is “good” or “a saint”, does not mean that your opinion is reality, or that everyone else should accept it as being true.
I Singh stated: “….organisation, saint of other religion than ours.”
Reply: As a matter of fact, the organization which you are apparently referring to, namely that of RSSB, is not “other” or unfamiliar to me. I know firsthand from where I speak , because I had been an initiated practitioner of Sant Mat and RSSB for 25 years. So I know RSSB from the inside.
I Singh stated: “If U had realised what is there inside UR body as per teachings of RSSB U would not have passed such comments.”
Reply: First, the only thing “inside” the human body are cells, flesh, blood, bones, nerves, and fluids. Second, I am quite well aware and very knowlegeable and experienced with the “teachings of RSSB”. That is exactly what gives me the solid foundation and perspective with which to speak about the pros and cons of RSSB. I am not just some ignorant outsider.
I Singh stated: “First clean UR self then think about others.”
Reply: I Singh knows nothing about myself, and so has no business saying “clean ur self”. I Singh should apply this statement to his own self. Furthermore, I can “think about others” as much as I choose, and about whomever I choose.
Conclusion: As I have already stated many times before, it would be wise if people would first get themselves relatively informed and educated about the truth and all the real facts of a particular issue, before they go making uninformed, ignorant, and baseless statements and comments, such as this comment posted by I Singh.

I would like to make a general response to the correspondent going under the alias of ‘Who am I’.
As an RSSB initiate who is also open to other paths and systems I feel obliged to take a position of ‘In defense of RSSB’ to act as devils advocate to all the negativity posted about the organisation, the guru, the followers and the sant mat teaching. This is not because there are not valid crticisms that can be made of all of these, but to harp on negatively about these without any attempt to see the positive is both unjust and unbalanced.
It is also testament to misunderstanding of some elements of the sant mat teaching, with a total bias towards an advaita non dual perspective (which itself is completely open to crticism, both philosophically and morally – as I shall demonstrate).
Yes it is completely true that there is no way of verifying who is a sat guru or not. That is a given. What can be evaluated is how the present guru effects ones resolve to practice contemplation and inner research.
Also, does the guru do his best to strip away theistic/theological belief systems and throw the seeker back on their own sadhana? Does the guru suggest that all beliefs are mere concepts until they become inner gnosis or realisation? Does the guru constantly emphasise that the inner guru is the true ‘master’ and that this form is the same thing as the true Self or paramatman/purusha. Does the guru suggest that you are either there or not in terms of spiritual realisation and that inner stages of light/sound and bliss are stepping stones to the non dual state of oneness?
My experience of the current Beas master is that he does state all this very thoroughly.
Yes there are issues of sant mat being overly theistic/theological and implicitly dualistic. In my view this is to give access to more people to spiritual practice and devotion. Quite simply most people do not have the intellectual discernment to even begin to appreciate the non dual philosophy and self enquiry would be too challenging. Simple bhakti of the guru and simple meditation technique are all thats needed!
For those who wish to push deeper, the pure non dual stream is there in sant mat, with references to mentalism/idealism(a la Bishop Berkeley and Kant)to the unqualified oneness mentioned by Kabir and Nanak, and Shiv Dayal Singh stating that the Radhasoami stage is not a stage as such but the background state of everything and that it is all ‘love’ and ‘wonder’.
I would say that the implicit duality in sant mat is a very practical response to the absolute mystery of existence and the infinitude of consciousness that all tradtions allude to. In this regard Paul Brunton said that the major philosophical error of advaita is that it assumes total union or ‘god realisation’ to be reachable.
Brunton disagrees and states that what is realised is the seekers union with that ray of the universal Self within ones being (or the overself as he calls it). Perfect union with the absolute is not within man’s grasp as that would imply absolute omniscience being attainable. Brunton suggests that it is soul/Self realisation that is mistaken as absolute union, whereas the mystery in itself remains impenetrable.
I have come across some modern advaita teachers such as Tony Parsons who assume that all spritual practice is a waste of time as all we need to do is abide as the Self. This is fine as a background understanding, but who can do that? It also does not effectively deal with the reduction and processing of mental junk that meditation can achieve.
Also such teachers advocate a very impractical approach to ethics which goes along the lines of ‘a piece of watercress and a steak are all of god and so it doesn’t matter what you eat’. The fault with this morality is obvious. It is applying absolute principles to non absolute relative situations and practicalities.
The sant mat stance on vegetarianism and a hierarchy of sentience in living creatures, (with a wish to reduce the most harm to the most sentient) is light years beyond this in understanding.
So there are problems with the non dual approaches and they are not the be all and end all they are cracked up to be. They have just as many pitfalls and philosophical failings as sant mat does. Indeed the functional duality of sant mat is more practical for most people, which is why it was adopted by the guru’s.
That is enough on the philosophical side for now, I will tackle some of the instititional crticisms of RSSB and the problem of ‘organisation’ and ‘followers’in a later posting.
In closing, any path or teaching is what you choose to make of it with all ones limitations, hopes, expectations and dreams. Sant mat meditation and devotion can and do work in transporting one from suffering and duality into more expanded and steady states of being. It all depends how you go about it and with what maturity, intelligence and compassion you bring to it.

Nick, you hit upon some interesting issues about non-duality and dualism.
I just finished writing an essay on this very subject in which I challenged Ken Wilber’s contention that the Greek philosophers Plotinus and Plato espouse non-duality. Actually, they don’t. They’re at least monists, not non-dualists. And some scholars think that Plotinus was even a mystical monotheist.
These are all just words, of course: non-duality, monism, monotheism. I’m pretty sure that really real reality can’t be captured in words, so something other that concepts and language is needed to understand it. Direct experience, seemingly.
It’s hard to talk about this stuff, but you talked about it nicely. One issue that I addressed in my essay—which you touched on also—is whether the non-dual philosophers/mystics are speaking about objective reality, or about subjective perceptions. Ken Wilber bounces back and forth between these positions.
Sometimes he says that the One and the Many are real, and that non-duality means seeing them both as equally real. Indeed, more than that: they are the same thing. Or no-thing.
Regardless, there is something out there in the cosmos that we can call the One and the Many and the non-dual. But other times Wilber seems to be saying that it all is a matter of perception. How we see things is how they are.
Personally, I’m scientifically inclined. Scientific evidence seems to tilt in the direction of objective laws of nature that are independent of human cognition. So lacking evidence to the contrary, I tend to believe that any spiritual realms of reality will be similar. That is, real—independent of individual perception. Of course, I could be wrong.
Like you, I find that non-duality is another concept with its own limitations and pitfalls. It’s a belief system, just like monism and monothesism, and all other isms. Direct experience is the only way out of belief. That can happen within any sort of organizational confine, Sant Mat, Islam, Wicca, Catholicism, whatever.
As you said, any path or teaching is what you choose to make of it.

Further on ‘In defense of RSSB’.
I would like to follow up my previous posting by making some further comprehensive challenges to the comments made by the ‘Who am I’ correspondent. I make these challenges out of a spirit of intellectual rigour combined with care and concern along the lines of ‘let a hundred schools meet together and talk’. I have no interest in ‘proving’ my argument or being ‘right’. When it all comes down, we simply do not know who or what is right in the mysterious infinitude we find ourselves in. Please excuse the length of this posting as I have tried to provide a ‘refutation’ of all the main points made by ‘Who am I’.
The infinite
Who am I wrote:
This totality is also refered to as the One Self, the Atman, Brahman, Buddha nature, the Ineffable, God, the Great Spirit, and the Tao, etc. This totality is unborn, non-dual, and infinite. Of the nature of perfect peace, pure awareness, everlasting bliss (no sorrow), and unbounded freedom. This totality is the Heart and nature of all manifest beings. Nothing exists apart from it. It is not in a particular place, plane, or realm. All phenomena, dimensions, space, time, and mind, are conditional dream-like appearances within the primordial pure Awareness which is this totality. Therefore, no seemingly “other” being exists in reality. Only the One Being, the One Self, exists for all eternity.
This is exactly what Soamiji says of the non ‘state’ or ‘region’ of Radhasoami, that it is not a region as such but the ALL or essence of everything and nothing. The exact same cosmological perspective is thus at the heart of sant mat. Soamiji also runs out of words and descriptions of this non state by calling it ‘all love’ and ‘wonder, wonder’.
Who am I wrote:
That being the case, there is no possibility or necessity to rely on another apparently separate being for one’s spiritual salvation, enlightenment, and liberation. The one who seeks such, is the very same one who is none other than that One Self. All that is needed, is for each and every conscious being to accept, and to abide in and as their own true nature, the One Self, which is perfect peace, ever-lasting happiness, and spiritual freedom.
Yes, this is great if the seeker can simply get on and do that from day one! The vast majority of seekers, including quite sophisticated ones find it hard to look first of all in the obvious place, which is within ones own heart and mind. Therefore the inclination is to start ‘externally’ by looking for THAT in someone who one regards as a realised soul.
That is why large numbers of both simple Indian village people and sophisticated westerners sought out the non dual sage Ramana Maharshi and the Shabd yoga master Sawan Singh. Seekers would go to them for the ‘vibrations’ they gave off and then be attuned to that same ‘current’ within them. Only then can it be acknowledged by the seeker that it is right there inside all along. Very very few can start off with the ‘right’ orientation to begin with as we are so externally driven, and hence that necessitates the outer guru for most seekers.
There is absolutely no doubt for me in my experience that being in the company of some teachers who are said to be realised can have profound effects on ones own inner state. You can run this by your critical faculties and test yourself for autosuggestion and so on, but I have experienced tremendous and long lasting effects from being in the company of at least one teacher who was said to have realised the Self. These effects range from profound states of inner peace, absence of thought and associated anxiety, vibrant ecstatic sensations within the body for up to three weeks after contact with the teacher.
If you accept a spiritual metaphysic, then seekers are absolutely right to regard their master as the very divine, since if there is nothing but THAT then he/she cannot be anything but THAT. If such an orientation can help the seeker to eventually recognise the divine spark within their Self then is that not a valid and useful spiritual practice?
Yogi Bhajan offered a useful idea in saying that if one could fully surrender to even a rock as ones divine ideal then that would be enough to effect realisation.
The spiritual journey
Who am I wrote:
Sant Mat does teach “going inside”, but not to realize one’s true Self. The whole emphasis is upon an inner/outer dichotomy, where one is supposed to dissociate from body, and meditate upon shabda to experience and travel through subtle planes to reach a supposed higher spiritual plane beyond the causal plane. This is all very dualistic cosmological mental projection. It has absolutely nothing to do with the direct realization of Self-knowledge, which is true enlightenment and true liberation. If one studies the teachings of the true Sages, one will begin to understand the difference.
It would be interesting to note who is considered as a ‘true sage’ by our correspondent. I would hazard a guess and say that Ramana Maharshi is considered as such. Readers should understand that Ramana’s realisation occurred at age 17 through a profound dichotomy and dissociation between body and mind (Self). He experienced a state analogous to death in which he realised he was the animating Self within the body (Atman, Purusha etc). This left him in a realised state but one which took him years to integrate into his understanding and come back to his embodied state in terms of communication and sociability. For years Ramana virtually forgot the health and wellbeing of his body and let lice, mice and other creatures gnaw at him as he was so absorbed in inner communion with the Self.
Even when Paul Brunton met Ramana in his later years, the sage would still go into ‘trance’ and ‘leave the body consciousness’ for hours at a time before ‘coming back’ to bestow darshan on seekers.
All of this is highly analogous to the intent and goal of sant mat spiritual practices. A careful reading of sant mat ‘scriptures’ from Shiv Dayal Singh, Kabir and Nanak state that the seeker is not to stay hooked on inner plane phenomena but to press on to the non dual state of Oneness, called variously as ‘Hari’, ‘Radhasoami’, ‘Ek Onkar’ and so on.
Faqir Chand a non RSSB guru has said that indeed a lot of the inner plane phenomena are simply mental projections and that the goal is realise oneself as a ‘bubble of consciousness’ that is part of the ‘ocean of consciousness’. I firmly believe that the actual ‘goal’ of the Radhasoami teachings and practices is quite definitely the universal or more non dual consciousness. It is simply that it posits a more implicitly dualistic stance in its devotional practices to achieve that end. A basic beginners text from RSSB, ‘Radhaswami teachings’ explains how all the ‘inner planes’ are simply states of consciousness that have been described almost as places to appeal to seekers.
There is actually not too much significant difference in the underlying metaphysic of sant mat and ‘non dual’ teachings such as advaita. The sants have always stated that the shabda is the vehicle for ‘transport’ from ones seeming separation from the divine back to ones own true home (Hari Om, Purusha etc) . This is definitely the case for Kabir, Nanak and Shiv Dayal Singh. The dualistic poetic references to ‘separation’ are to act as stimuli to effect the non journey back to where one already is. In other words it appeals to the strongly devotional streak in humankind. Ramakrishna expressed this as saying, ‘I would rather taste sugar than be sugar’.
Origins of RSSB and sant mat history
Who am I wrote:
Perhaps Harri should do some real study of the actual documented history of Sant Mat, and specifically the R.S. branch which stems from Shiv Dayal Singh. There is much to indicate that the particular R.S. path is a creation and invention of Shiv Dayal Singh, and not a gift from “God”.
I have read the works of Maheshwari and a close reading shows them to give far from any objective ‘history’ but proselytizing for one of the Agra branches of Radhasoami.
The central ‘historical’ points are rebutted in RSSB’s ‘Radhasoami teachings’. The facts are that nobody knows the historical details anymore with any certainty. We do not know for sure who Soamiji did or did not appoint as successor and ‘sat guru’, The facts are that all the historical argument is a blinder and distraction and that all we have to go on are our own inner researches and realization of inner peace.
Yes it can be argued that Soamiji put together the RS path, though ‘invention’ is a somewhat negative expression for this. It is clear that Soamiji was a great syncretist, who combined elements of guru bhakti with nada yoga techniques against a cosmological background that includes elements of Sankhya, Vedanta, Tantrism and Shamanism amongst others. This is to be expected as all ‘new’ spiritual technologies and cosmologies rely on syntheses of what has gone before. The blending of yoga with bhakti devotion and sankhya philosophy in the bhagavad gita is testament to this. Soamiji did no more or less that any previous innovator in the field, from Kabir, Nanak, Chaitanya, Shankara and many more. In any case, anything that can help with ones emancipation from narcissism and egotism is surely ‘a gift from god’ or from the transpersonal dimension.
What lies within?
Who am I wrote:
First, the only thing “inside” the human body are cells, flesh, blood, bones, nerves, and fluids.
Can we be sure that this is the ultimate truth about the body? This sounds somewhat similar to the position of materialist, reductionist scientism? That matter is the ‘ground state’ from which the epiphenomenon of ‘mind’ arises?
Some mystics and philosophers have argued strongly that the body is located in the mind and not the other way round (Bishop Berkeley, Paul Brunton, Ramana Maharshi) and that mind or mental impressions are the only way we have of negotiating any ‘reality’ (Kant).
This mentalist or monistic idealism is now supported by radical physicists such as Amit Goswami. The facts are that we do not truly know what sort of universe we are inhabiting. We can posit some kind of monism (whether of mind or matter) but that doesn’t remotely compass the awesome mystery of existence. Whatever we may think of him as a guru, Da Free John sums this up by urging contemplation on the one liner, ‘Why is there something rather than nothing?’ (see ‘The Transmission of Doubt’ by Da Free John). This book firmly quashes any ‘mind and spirit are delusions that arise from a lump of meat’ type of weak argument! Nobody in the opposing monistic camps has yet won the day on this one and are most unlikely ever to.
Cultism
Who am I wrote
I have little or no interest in discussing cults and their beliefs, intellectual exercises, or wrestling with other people’s rigid concepts and attachments and their acquired beliefs about their spiritual paths, or even about other commentators narcissistic identifications and deluded spiritual notions in general.
Now we can assume that RSSB is targeted here as a ‘cult’. Yes it is true that the organisation as a whole demonstrates some of the features of cults, especially amongst the true RSSB ‘faithful’. But please could somebody tell me what is not a cult or constitutes ‘cultish’ behaviour in todays world? Is not consumer materialism the biggest mind warping ‘cult’ ever devised? Even if we live wholly secular lives in the world are we not totally conditioned? Do not the endless media adverts on TV and in magazines constitute a distorted form of satsang? Do not shopping malls function as temples and churches where the consumer faithful flock to make their offerings? Are we not all deluded to some degree that the next purchase will lead to satisfaction or the next book will bring us that inner peace?
Let’s be honest, we all exhibit CULTivated neuroses and difficulty in transcending our limitations. Let’s not point the finger of judgement at RSSB followers alone. Far be it for me to judge, (are we are not entitled to make comments about others words or actions with a view hopefully of increasing understanding, tolerance and compassion?) but do these type of comments about ‘other people’ exhibit any tolerance, compassion, understanding, care or concern? Not especially! Do they not instead sound a bit vitriolic and judgemental (the true path is non dualism and advaita and everyone who doesn’t agree is somewhat deluded!?). Please, let’s show those qualities of compassion and tolerance that are both the beginning and end of all classic spiritual paths.
The fact is that sant mat is a great and glorious path to inner realisation, with great sweeping romantic cosmological speculation and yearning for release from the limitations of mind and matter. In their way so are Zen, Advaita, Sufism, Catholic contemplation, Hatha yoga, Vedanta and many more! I speak from no mere lip service here, but as someone who has and does practice techniques and absorb insights from all these great traditions, but with an overall background (at the moment!) in sant mat.
Regarding the organisational structure of RSSB, some of its followers and the secular dealings of the guru; here is my take on it all.
Organisation
Firstly the organisation. RSSB is one of the largest spiritual groups in the world. That is a given. As such it has reached the stage where it has almost gotten bigger as a corporate entity than the individuals that comprise it. Consequently the same type of person typically comes to the fore to be part of the management as within secular organisations.
Consequently they manifest the same qualities. On the positive side they are great organisers, project managers and politicians. On the negative side there is manipulation, bossiness, bureaucracy, elitism and hierarchy. So what’s new? Think it all depends on how enlightened or not the guru is? Read ‘Living with Bhagavan’ by Annamalai Swami and see how the closest followers of one of the most manifestly enlightened guru’s (Ramana Maharshi,) got up to all sorts of machinations, scheming, favoritism and dirty tactics within his ashram.
There have been some hideous sex scandals that have stuck to some ‘non dual’ or advaita gurus such as Muktananda and Da Free John. Whatever else anyone may think about the RSSB gurus, they are absolutely spotless in this regard. There is not even so much as a hint of this type of abuse that goes on. So it goes to show that advaita or pure non dual philosophies are not any better in terms of the conduct of their disciples or masters, just as they are not philosophically superior and more sophisticated than sant mat.
Yes organisations can be a barrier to realising inner truths as Krishnamurti tirelessly pointed out. The trouble is he established lots of organisations to guard his teachings and propagate them in schools throughout the world. Organisations do promote hierarchy and cliques and can obscure the original pure teachings of their founders. However, they can also provide structure to the needy, a framework of faith for the philosophically unsophisticated and general camaraderie and companionship in a troubled world. Please highlight any teaching or faith that does not have attendant problems with organisational support structures!
Followers
Yes there are some satsangi’s who are holier than thou, who mix in a bit of fire and brimstone literalism with a bit of Sunday school preacher righteousness. ‘We are all being devoured by Kal and are all roasting in our own karmas’ kind of stuff. Yes there are definitely those who think that sant mat (not just sant mat but only RSSB) is the one and only true way to spirituality. The guru for them is literally god incarnate and is literally infallible and omniscient. (It is much more comforting to think that the crushingly enormous mystery of existence can be squeezed down into one particular human form for our bracketing and adoration, than to have to stare into the immensity and agnostic uncertainty of things absolute.) Do we have to judge them for all that? Isn’t that simply where they’re at?
There are also those who quietly try to get on with their own understanding of sant mat, which is much more ‘universal and cosmopolitan’. They have no problem in recognising other systems as equally valid (such as Zen or Advaita or other shabd based groups). They have a view of the master as analogous to that of the Zen abbot; someone who acts as guide and preceptor and who can be both stern and compassionate in directing us inwards to find our liberation from mind and materialism. They base this view on their own understanding of other paths and on the practical point of view of simply not knowing for sure who is and who is not a Sat Guru. They frequently find their ‘point of view’ endorsed by the current master, but by very few other satsang speakers. They do not parrot dogma and theology but prefer to rely on their own experience as their barometer of spirituality. They find their outlook perfectly in accord with the ‘deeper’ teaching of sant mat as outlined by Shiv Dayal Singh and Sawan Singh.
Exactly the same mix of seekers can be found in any religious/spiritual group anywhere in the world. I have visited enough of them to experience this. Even amongst the advaita groups and guru’s, egotism, plotting and machinations abound along with sexual scandals pertaining to the guru. So please let’s get some perspective on all this and not single out RSSB for having particularly negative followers.
Benefits of the organisation
For me, one of the great benefits of the RSSB policy in recent years (and that obviously includes the guru as central policy maker!) is the establishment of satsang and seva centres around the world. These centres undoubtedly function as much needed island ashrams within the current madness of consumerism that we live in.
Here adults and children can work and play together in a safe and secure environment. You can talk about god and spirituality without seeming a weirdo. If the pundits out there think that these properties are mini empires for the master and his closest entourage then dream on! When does the master actually get to fully enjoy them with any peace and quiet without being mobbed by groupies who don’t ever get the message that the true guru is within?
The centres were established for the benefit and uplift of the followers, for the enjoyment and sense of community of the sangat and other visitors and to provide a support network and a retreat from conventional society. As the world spirals into chaos (is this being negative? Check out any night’s news for the low down on war, crime, famine and general dysfunction) are not such centres much needed oases for souls to take rest at and reflect on things eternal, rather than just the passing show?
Secular dealings of the guru
Yes it is perfectly obviously that merely placing your faith in one other man or woman is not going to get you out of your own suffering state (whether you call them a perfect master or not). The current Beas master repeats this message ad nauseum and procedes to direct seekers to the inner master for that experience.
Yes his secular doings do have cause for criticism. But doesn’t any C.E.O or high ranking politician do the same? Can any of them ever do anything right in the eyes of the critical? Could you do a better job? If not then keep quiet. To think that RSSB is a kingship is correct in some regards, but hey check out any large company, corporation or even government office and you will find the equivalent there. To think its all non hierarchical and team working in glorious liberal left wing land is simply not true. That only exists in progressive management books and periodicals. Human ambition and power politics are the same the world over. Yes the master will make mistakes and wrong judgements in his secular doings. Don’t we all?
To look upon the master as simply a human being and look for salvation from such is a mistake. He is the shabd in human form as we all are and as he urges us all to realise. So nobody who thinks about the path is looking for salvation from a human being. We are seeking release through the transcendent realisation of spirit, with the master as a much needed intermediary until we can stand on our own two spiritual feet and then slowly merge back into the one Self of all.

Nick,
I love your post. It beautifully articulates some of the thoughts that were crossing my mind on the ” who am i ” position. It is wonderfully comprehensive and well researched.
Thank You,
Ramnik

Response to Nick:
Nick wrote: “…a general response to the correspondent going under the alias of ‘Who am I’. ” – and – “…testament to misunderstanding of some elements of the sant mat teaching, with a total bias towards an advaita non dual perspective (which itself is completely open to crticism, both philosophically and morally…”
Response: Nick seems to think that I have a lesser or incomplete understanding of Sant Mat, or as he says: a “misunderstanding of some elements of the sant mat teaching”. On the contrary, I think I have a considerably deeper understanding of Sant Mat than most, due to having studied and practiced it for more than 25 years. However, as far as having “a total bias towards an advaita…perspective”, this is simply not my position or emphasis at all. My entire focus is upon the direct experience of Self-knowledge, which is achieved through the orientation and practice of Self-inquiry. My focus has NOT been upon “advaita” philosophy as many commenters continue to presume and assert. My entire focus has always been upon Self-inquiry leading to direct experience of Self-knowledge. I do not know why this simple fact continues to be so misunderstood and distorted, other than perhaps those who are critical do not understand the difference between direct experience and philosophy.
Therefore, for the record, let us please get this particular point straight: Self-inquiry (atma-vichara) is an introspective sadhana (spiritual practice). Self-knowledge (atma-jnana) is direct experience of one’s own true nature, awareness itself. … On the other hand, “advaita” (non-dual) as a philosophy, is merely a philosophical construct, orientation, or perspective.
Nick wrote: “..it is completely true that there is no way of verifying who is a sat guru or not.”
Response: First of all, this lengthy comment from “Nick” began with, and was predicated upon, a complete error. I did not say that “there is no way of verifying who is a sat guru or not”. Nick has misrepresented both my words as well as my meaning. I have clearly indicated in many of my comments about this issue, that a true or genuine “Sat-Guru” is one who has awakened into Self-knowledge, ie: Self-realization. Abiding thus in Self-knowledge, the genuineness of a Sat-Guru is revealed and “verified” to those who would desire to verify it, through their state of being, their teaching, and their general behavior. Therefore it is quite possible to determine who is a genuine Sat-Guru. The indications are certainly there, if one knows where and how to look. However, mere use of the term “Sat-Guru” as a name-title, means nothing.
Nick wrote: “…Does the guru suggest …..that inner stages of light/sound and bliss are stepping stones to the non dual state of oneness?… My experience of the current Beas master is that he does state all this very thoroughly.”
Response: Perhaps your “current Beas master ” does suggest “…that inner stages of light/sound and bliss are stepping stones to the non dual state…”, but that does not correspond to the teachings of the true genuine Sages. These so-called “inner stages”, “light /sound and bliss”, and “stepping stones”, have nothing to do with the real teaching and practice of Self-inquiry and Self-realization, except as notions and mis-identifications which are to be discarded. Nick is attempting to imply that the dualistic Radha Soami teachings and the R.S .”inner stages of light/sound”, are somehow proceeding towards the “non-dual state of oneness”. This notion is flat-out incorrect. As I have stated elsewhere, it would be wise for commenters to be truly knowledgable and educated about a particular issue, before making assertions and judgements which have no basis in fact.
Nick wrote: “…most people do not have the intellectual discernment to even begin to appreciate the non dual philosophy and self enquiry would be too challenging. Simple bhakti of the guru and simple meditation technique are all thats needed ”
Response: Oh really ? I have heard this absurd and narrow-minded arguement and excuse before. But it is still just as faulty and ignorant as it ever was before. This idea is downright ignorant. It is wrong to say or imply that people are just too stupid or simple-minded for average people to achieve awakening of Self-knowledge. To justify your criticism of Self-realization, you imply that people are so unintelligent or incapable that all they can handle is some mild guru-bhakti and simple meditation. The fact of the matter is that, blind guru-bhakti and a little mantra meditation will not result in the liberated state of Self-knowledge. The reality is that simple Self-inquiry is quite natural and innate to all, and it requires no such faith, devotion, or bhakti to any Guru, nor any sort of mantra meditation. The potential for awakening Self-knowledge is freely available to all, and only requires a sincere desire and some self-honesty to bring fruition.
Nick wrote: “….the pure non dual stream is there in sant mat, …. mentalism/idealism (a la Bishop Berkeley and Kant)to the unqualified oneness mentioned by Kabir and Nanak…”
Response: Again, this is a considerable digression and distortion from my own comments regarding Self-inquiry and Self-knowledge. Nick’s reference to Berkeley, Kant, mentalism, idealism, Kabir, Nanak, and other philosophers and their philosoiphies etc. has absolutely nothing to do with the direct experience of the non-dual state of pure Self-knowledge, which is realized through the practice of Self-inquiry.
Nick wrote: “…Paul Brunton said that the major philosophical error of advaita is that it assumes total union or ‘god realisation’ to be reachable.
Response: Oh really ? Is Nick an authority on Paul Brunton ? This is another flat-out distortion. As a matter of considerable fact, Paul Brunton was extremely aligned with, and in profound agreement with, the view of Advaita. Not only that, Paul Brunton considered the great sage, Sri Ramana Maharshi to be the quintessential realization of Self-knowledge, and the clear evidence that Self-realization is quite attainable. Even Sri Ramana himself clearly stated that anyone could attain Self-realization as well. But nevertheless, Ramana’s statements derived from his own Realization, are significantly more expert than Brunton’s philosophical conjectures and musings. It is also important to note that Brunton was a very prolific writer, and he has been found to contradict himself on numerous occasions.
Nick wrote: “…..some modern advaita teachers … who assume that all spritual practice is a waste of time as all we need to do is abide as the Self. This is fine as a background understanding, but who can do that?” …. “It also does not effectively deal with the reduction and processing of mental junk that meditation can achieve.”
Response: Now Nick is bringing other “modern advaita teachers” into this issue. I am not concerned with what other “modern advaita teachers” have to say. I could not even begin to address what other people may think. Nick then asserts and asks: ” abide as the Self …is fine as a background understanding….but who can do that?” Answer: Anyone, any being of awareness who can apply themselves to Self-inquiry, is quite able to realize innate Self-knowledge and thus abide ‘as the Self’. But contrary to Nick’s notion, Self-knowledge and to “abide as the Self” is not something to “do”. Self-realization is not “doing”. Self-realization is the loss of ignorance through one’s awakening into true Knowledge.
Nick wrote: “such teachers advocate a very impractical approach to ethics which goes along the lines of ‘a piece of watercress and a steak are all of god and so it doesn’t matter what you eat’. The fault with this morality…”.
Response: I do not know who or what Nick is specifically referring to, but it has nothing to do with myself. Nick is speaking about peoples views and justifications towards eating animals vs.vegetarianism. Whatever others advocate or justify on the basis of philosophy or whim is not my concern. Nick is somehow trying to link other “teachers” and their morality and ethics, or lack thereof, to myself. There is NO connection. Nick may have a valid argument regarding philosophical hypocrisy, but his arguement has nothing to do with myself. This shows that Nick is attempting to bolster his criticism of Self-realization, by foolishly incorporating elements which have no relation to the direct experience of Self-realization. As a matter of fact, Sri Ramana Maharshi was himself a strict and total vegetarian and he naturally advocated and naturally practiced ahimsa (non-violence). Nick then states: “The sant mat stance on vegetarianism ….is light years beyond this in understanding.” As if Sant Mat is somehow superior. But there are many spiritual paths which are vegetarian in principle and practice, not just Sant Mat, and that includes the vast majority of the folks who are oriented towards “advaita”. The bottom line here is that Nick has got his aim and his targets mixed up.
Nick wrote:
A.) “there are problems with the non dual approaches and they are not the be all and end all they are cracked up to be.”
B.) “They have just as many pitfalls and philosophical failings as sant mat does”.
C.) “…the functional duality of sant mat is more practical for most people, which is why it was adopted by the guru’s.”
Response:
A.) Is that right ? This judgement would necessarily require that Nick has actual direct experience of Self-knowledge and Self-realization, which to my view, he clearly does not. Therefore, how could Nick know that the “non-dual approaches” “are not the be all and end all they are cracked up to be”, if he has not engaged the sadhana of Self-inquiry to its completion ? Answer: He does not know.
B.) If so, then lets see these “pitfalls” and “philosophical failings”. Where are they and what are they ? If you are going to make such a statement, then you had better back it up with evidence and facts. This is nothing more than unsubstantiated blowing of hot-air. This kind of baseless is not even worth a reply.
C.) Who says the “duality of sant mat is more practical for most people” ? That is merely your one opinion. The truth of the matter is, that the mind of duality is the cause of all ignorance, suffering, fear, mis-indentification, and separation. Moreover, the idea that duality was “adopted by the guru’s” is also totally relative and mere conjecture. What Guru’s ? Which Guru’s ? And who says they “adopted” “duality”. And are these so-called “guru’s” you are referring to, true and genuine Guru’s ? Nick’s comment is just another fabrication based upon un-related and un-substantiated opinions.
Nick wrote: ” Sant mat meditation and devotion can and do work in transporting one from suffering and duality into more expanded and steady states of being.” – and – “It all depends how you go about it and with what maturity, intelligence and compassion you bring to it.”
Response: If that were true, then you would have a fair number of satsangis who are free from “suffering” and who are “into more expanded and steady states of being.” Maybe Nick knows some satsangisa like that, but I have seen none. I have been to the Dera numerous times and have seen many thousands of satsangis there, as well as encountering hundreds of satsangis both on the east coast, middle america, and the west coast of the USA. I have never seen a satsangi who was abiding in Self-knowledge, Self-realization, or one who was being transported “from suffering and duality into more expanded and steady states of being.”. I would think that if Nick is even partially correct, then there would be considerably more evidence to support his claim than there is. My own experience gained from my encounters with hundreds and thousands of satsangis, is that there simply is just no evidence to indicate that most satsangis have any significant degree of true spiritual awakening, and/or realization of Self-knowledge.
Nick wrote: “I would like to follow up my previous posting by making some further comprehensive challenges to the comments made by the ‘Who am I’ correspondent.”…. ” I have tried to provide a ‘refutation’ of all the main points made by ‘Who am I’.”
Nick wrote: “This is exactly what Soamiji says of the non ‘state’ or ‘region’ of Radhasoami, that it is not a region as such but the ALL or essence of everything and nothing. The exact same cosmological perspective is thus at the heart of sant mat. Soamiji also runs out of words and descriptions of this non state by calling it ‘all love’ and ‘wonder, wonder’.”
Response: Nick is attempting to indicate that the essence of the RS teaching about the region of Radha Soami, as it was espoused by “Soamiji”, is akin to non-duality. I have no argument with that, but whatever the definitions are about the nature of the so-called region of Radha Soami, or even of the Self, they are not essential or relevant to the actual direct experience of the awakening into Self-knowledge. There is fundamentally but One Reality, be it be called “The Self”, or “Radha Soami”.
Nick wrote: “The vast majority of seekers, …..find it hard to look first of all …. within ones own heart and mind.” – and – “…the inclination is to start ‘externally’ by looking for that in someone who one regards as a realised soul.”
Response: This is a very presumptive generalization about “vast majority of seekers”. I disagree on that basis. If you are going to generalize, which is not a good idea to begin with, then I feel that all people have the ability and inclination towards knowing themselves, or Self-knowledge, especially if they are guided by a genuine realized Sage and/or his Teaching.
Nick wrote: “….Ramana Maharshi and the Shabd yoga master Sawan Singh.” …..”Very very few can start off with the ‘right’ orientation to begin with as we are so externally driven, and hence that necessitates the outer guru for most seekers”
Response: Nick has here mentioned Ramana Maharshi and Sawan Singh in the same breath, in the same context, and such a comparison is fairly misleading. These two individuals are very very different. The teaching of Sri Ramana Maharshi is not the same as the teaching of Sawan Singh (which he merely acquired from his guru, Jaimal Singh). Sri Ramana was a fully enlightened Sage (Jnani) who abided in profound Self-knowledge. Ramana taught Self-inquiry to achieve Self-realization and consequent liberation. On the other hand, Sawan Singh taught mantra meditation and shabda yoga. As a matter of unargueable fact, Sant Mat dogma (Swamiji in Sar Bachan) falsely criticises all other paths such as Jnana, Buddhism, Advaita, and both the dualism of the vedic Vaishnavaism, and the non-dualism of the vedic Shaivism and Brahmanism to be quite ‘inferior’ and of ‘a lower plane’. This reveals this particular ignorant and unenlightened false negative bias which is promoted by Sant Mat and subscribed to by its various proponents. None of those who criticise Self-realization and Jnanis (like Sant Mat does), have any first-hand knowledge or direct experience of that which they are criticising. It is simply a bunch of talk, by those who do not know.
Nick wrote: “There is absolutely no doubt for me in my experience that being in the company of some teachers who are said to be realised, can have profound effects on ones own inner state.” – and – “…from being in the company of at least one teacher who was said to have realised the Self.”
Response: I have no doubt that some benefit is gained by being in the company of a true Sage. I never said or implied anything different. But they must be a genuine Sage, not just someone who makes exalted claims, or who can speak spiritual platitudes.
Nick wrote: “…seekers are absolutely right to regard their master as the very divine, since if there is nothing but that, then he/she cannot be anything but that. If such an orientation can help the seeker to eventually recognise the divine spark within their Self, then is that not a valid and useful spiritual practice?
Response: Yes, all beings including one’s outer guru are embodiements of the one “divine” Self. But to worship the outer Guru as being somehow more “divine”, or as being more spiritually superior and “God incarnate”, as does RSSB and its dis-empowered followers, is a considerable drawback, and is not based in the equanimity of Self-knowledge.
Nick wrote: “…a useful idea in saying that if one could fully surrender to even a rock as ones divine ideal then that would be enough to effect realisation.”
Response: This is a cute thought, but it is misleading. The key here is surrender, not the object of surrender. Self-inquiry is nothing other than the act of surrendering to the truth of one’s own real nature and being. So surrender is the real issue, not “a rock”.
Nick wrote: “It would be interesting to note who is considered as a ‘true sage’ by our correspondent.”
Response: Name dropping is not my game. The general attitude behind this question is all wrong as well.
Nick wrote: “Ramana’s realisation occurred at age 17 through a profound dichotomy and dissociation between body and mind (Self).
Response: Yes generally, but there is one significant error in your terminology. “Mind” is not the Self. The Self is pure consciousness. The mind is the illusion of duality which springs from ignorance (absence of Self-knowledge). In Sri Ramana’s case, it was much more of an awakening as pure Consciousnness itself, than it was any kind of strategic attempt to dissociate from the body.
Nick wrote: “…he realised he was the animating Self within the body..”
Response: This is incorrect. According to Sri Ramana’s own testimony, he never considered the Self to be “within the body”. He clearly indicated many times, that the Self was pure Consciousness and not inside the body. He clearly indicated that all thoughts, perceptions, body, and false-ego (ahamkara) are within the mind, which is within the Self. The Self is not contained within a body, or within anything.
Nick wrote: “…as he was so absorbed in inner communion with the Self.”
Response: “The Self” is not only “inner”. Sri Ramana was not so much “absorbed in inner communion”, as he was steadily abiding as the Self. The idea of “inner communion” has a slight dualistic tone. This is the problem. People trying to describe the state and/or realization of a Sage, without having any direct experience of Self-knowledge themselves.
Nick wrote: “…in his later years, the sage would still go into ‘trance’ and ‘leave the body consciousness’ for hours at a time”
Response: How does Nick know whether Sri Ramana would “leave the body consciousness” ? The fact is that you do not know. A true Jnani such as Ramana Maharshi, abides in the awakened state, which is inclusive of all other states. It is highly likely that Sri Ramana did not leave body consciousness, although it may have appeared so from the view of outsiders.
Nick wrote: “All of this is highly analogous to the intent and goal of sant mat spiritual practices”.
Response: Absolutely and positively not true. The intent and goal of Sant Mat is described very very differently from that of Self-realization, and in fairly dualistic terms and orientation. It is foolish to try to fabricate some similarity or commonality. The basic premise, and the basic strategy, is very different between the two. The goal of Sant Mat is not clearly delineated or defined, other than a vague sense of reaching the higher plane of Sach Khand and reposing in the “lap of the Sat Purush”. Such babble sounds attractive to the unawakened, but it is too much like religious mythology, cosmology, and dogmatic belief, for my sense of reality.
Nick wrote: “…the seeker is not to stay hooked on inner plane phenomena but to press on to the non dual state of Oneness…”
Response: If that is really true, then why bother with “inner plane phenomena” at all ? This is my point. Sant Mat and RSSB is riddled with contradictions which confuse, mislead, and distract people from the spiritual enlightenment of awakening to Who they really are, and what true Self-realization is reallly all about. The inner planes are nothing but a virtual labyrinth of duality, illusion, and mind, which can all be overcome in an instant, through the awakening of Self-knowledge. Nick seems to be doing nothing more than parroting the same old Sant Mat / RSSB dogma. I would respect his opinions and theories aa bit more, if he spoke from his own direct experience and knowledge, and not simply resort to same old second-hand opinions and notions that all the other blind followers of RSSB try to use as supposedly valid arguments. The best thing to do is not to waste your time foolishly defending RSSB, but simply apply yourself to real Self-inquiry, and realize true Self-knowledge and enlightenment in your very own case. Then you won’t need to subscribe to, believe in, or argue about, anything. You will have direct tacit experience of the awakened state of Self-knowledge.
Nick wrote: ” I firmly believe that the actual ‘goal’ of the Radhasoami teachings and practices is quite definitely the universal or more non dual consciousness. It is simply that it posits a more implicitly dualistic stance in its devotional practices to achieve that end.
Response: All well and good….but what necessity is there to incorporate such a dualistic orientation in seekers, when you say that the goal is that of achieving non-duality ? This is just another of the many contradictions which lie beneath the seemingly attractive surface of Sant Mat.and the Radha Soami cult. Nick’s argument is as about as faulty as they come. Especially in this case. The incorporation of dualstic views in RS teachings, does not in any way facilitate an aspirant’s realization of the non-dual state of Self-knowledge. This kind of distortion, misleading ideas, and absence of Reason, are a detriment to the promulgation of dharma.
Nick wrote: “…all the ‘inner planes’ are simply states of consciousness that have been described almost as places to appeal to seekers.”
Response: “Appeal to seekers ” ? This is backwards. Who says that spirtual teachings and the truth must be adapted to “appeal to seekers”. It is not the spiritual teaching or the truth iself which must adapt, but rather it is the “seeker” who must adapt and align with the spiritual teaching and the truth.
Nick wrote: “There is actually not too much significant difference in the underlying metaphysic of sant mat and ‘non dual’ teachings such as advaita.”
Response: You may think there is not a difference in the so-called “metaphysics”, but that is very debateable. There is a very definite difference in orientation, premise, application, and results.
Nick wrote: “Ramakrishna expressed this as saying, ‘I would rather taste sugar than be sugar’.”
Response: Briefly stated: So what ! That was Ramakrishna’s feeling in that particular moment. It is not a universal truth. The reality is that one is already “the sugar”, and cannot be otherwise. Tasting and Being are not separate.
Nick wrote: “The facts are that all the historical argument is a blinder and distraction and that all we have to go on are our own inner researches and realization of inner peace.” …. “In any case, anything that can help with ones emancipation from narcissism and egotism is surely ‘a gift from god’ or from the transpersonal dimension.”
Response: Indeed…. So instead of analysing and dissecting spiritual beliefs and dogma, why not proceed forward with Self-inquiry and achieve direct experience of Self-realization ?
Nick wrote: “Can we be sure that this is the ultimate truth about the body? …. That matter is the ‘ground state’ from which the epiphenomenon of ‘mind’ arises?”
Response: I certainly did not say or even remotely imply, that “mind” arises from the body. I stated that Consciousness is not “inside” or somehow contained within or encapsulated by the body. I stated that the only thing that is “inside” of the physical body is flesh, blood, bones, nerves etc. Consciousness is not ‘inside” the body. Primordial Awareness is unborn. Consciousness or Awareness, in its unawakened state, is merely falsely identified with the body. The removal of this delusion is referred to as Self-realization and Self-knowledge.
Nick wrote: ” The facts are that we do not truly know what sort of universe we are inhabiting.”
Response: Perhaps you yourself do not know, but those who have awakened into Self-knowledge do know.
Nick wrote: “We can posit some kind of monism (whether of mind or matter)…”
Response: Self-knowledge is not to “posit” monism, or to “posit” any kind of “ism’. Self-knowledge is only about direct experience. Nick’s entire arguement tends to rest upon his particular conceptual views about the various philosophical angles, and his presumed concepts about the supposed benefit of duality, the supposed difficulty in understanding non-duality, etc.etc.
Nick wrote: “‘Why is there something rather than nothing?” Nobody in the opposing monistic camps has yet won the day on this one.
Response: Of course I disagree on both statements. But first, the simple answer: There is NO “something”, and there is NO “nothing”. There is neither a “something”, nor is there a “nothing”. Both are mere dualistic mental constructs. Reality transcends the illusion and mystery of duality.
Nick wrote: Now we can assume that RSSB is targeted here as a ‘cult’. Yes it is true that the organisation as a whole demonstrates some of the features of cults, especially amongst the true RSSB ‘faithful’.
Response: Enough said. Like it or not, RSSB is a “cult”. So what if other facets of society seem cultish as well. We are not talking about society in general. We are talking about RSSB. There are many cults of some degree or other. That does not change the simple fact that RSSB is a cult. What is the big deal ? I guess some folks just can’t handle the truth that their own spiritual group, is a cult as well. So they try to deny it, or to make artifical excuses, or whatever they can to avoid the fact that it is really a cult, and they are followers of a cult, followers of a cult leader, and subscribers to the cult philosophy. The funny thing is: that no one is forcing them to follow, to believe, or to cling to anything. It is all their own ignorance (absence of Self-knowledge) which causes them to feel any need to belong to, or to believe in, anything or anyone..
Nick wrote: Far be it for me to judge,….but do these type of comments about ‘other people’ exhibit any tolerance, compassion, understanding, care or concern ? ….. Do they not instead sound a bit vitriolic and judgemental (the true path is non dualism and advaita and everyone who doesn’t agree is somewhat deluded!?).
Response: Now Nick is treading outside his own territory. If you go and carefully re-read any of my previous very sober comments, you will notice that most of what I have posted is in direct response to a number of false allegations, assumptions, and baseless criticisms of “advaita” and Ramana Maharshi. I speak from my own direct experience, and I have definitely never said: “The true path is non dualism and advaita, and everyone who doesn’t agree is somewhat deluded. ” Nick has totally misrepresented, mis-quoted, and falsified what I have written and presented. “Vitriolic and judgemental” is not my style or attitude. To counter this bluntly: “Nick is full of … it” My advice: Stick to what you really know Nick, and don’t venture into places where you have no direct experience.
Nick wrote: “The fact is that sant mat is a great and glorious path to inner realisation, with great sweeping romantic cosmological speculation and yearning for release from the limitations of mind and matter.”
Response: Give me a break !!! This is nothing but outright shameful romanticising of the esoteric. It has less value than cow-dung. Maybe you’ll realize that someday, when you wake up from “La-La-Land”.
Nick wrote: “I speak from no mere lip service here, but as someone who has and does practice techniques and absorb insights from all these great traditions, but with an overall background (at the moment!) in sant mat.
Response: Well isn’t that nice….. But “practicing techniques” and “absorbing insights” is still a far cry from the direct experience of Self-knowledge. And the “background in Sant Mat” does not lend any credibility either.
Nick wrote: “…scandals that have stuck to some ‘non dual’ or advaita gurus such as Muktananda and Da Free John.”
Response: I do not know, nor do I care. I was not an admirer of either one, and what may be rumored is irrelevant to me These two you mention are not of “advaita” in its traditional sense either.
Nick wrote: “Whatever else anyone may think about the RSSB gurus, they are absolutely spotless in this regard.”…. “ There is not even so much as a hint of this type of abuse that goes on.”
Response: Bonk !!! This assertion is complete nonsense. There are several questions regarding the secret behavior of more than one Sant Mat guru. Like I said, I could care less. But be it known that Nick’s assetion that Sant Mat gurus ar “absolutely spotless”, is highly questionable. there is a whole lot more than just a “hint”.
Nick wrote: “So it goes to show that advaita or pure non dual philosophies are not any better in terms of the conduct of their disciples or masters, just as they are not philosophically superior and more sophisticated than sant mat.
Response: The entire weight and fixation here is upon the duality of superior vs. inferior, moral vs. immoral, ethical vs unethical, belief vs experience etc. This argument is endless. Self-knowledge will resolve all these questions and conflict.
Nick wrote: “Yes there are some satsangi’s who are holier than thou, ….. Yes there are definitely those who think that sant mat (not just sant mat but only RSSB) is the one and only true way to spirituality. The guru for them is literally god incarnate and is literally infallible and omniscient.” ….. “It is much more comforting to think that the crushingly enormous mystery of existence can be squeezed down into one particular human form for our bracketing and adoration, than to have to stare into the immensity and agnostic uncertainty of things absolute. Do we have to judge them for all that? Isn’t that simply where they’re at? “
Response: For once you are right, satsangis are on a “holier than thou” trip….And they do think that the master is God incarnate…..But is “comfort” what Self-realization or enlightenment is about ? Absolutely not ! Is that where they are at ? Obviously.
Nick wrote: “There are also those who quietly try to get on with their own understanding of sant mat, which is much more ‘universal and cosmopolitan’. ”…the practical point of view of simply not knowing for sure who is and who is not a Sat Guru.” “…find their outlook perfectly in accord with the ‘deeper’ teaching of sant mat as outlined by ….”
Response: I really have no interest whether people have a “more universal and cosmopolitan” understanding of Sant Mat or not. The entire Sant Mat process and view is based in a dualstic presumption; and it is, in my opinion, a waste of precious time. Mindless repetiton of some “holy” mantra, and the belief and worship of an unenlightened man as being “God incarnate” is in my opinion, a very unfortunate affair.
Nick wrote: “Even amongst the advaita groups and guru’s, egotism, plotting and machinations abound along with sexual scandals pertaining to the guru. So please let’s ….not single out RSSB for having particularly negative followers.
Response: I don’t know who or what Nick is referring to by the generalization of “advaita groups”, but it is not anything or anyone that I have anything to do with.
Nick wrote: “The current Beas master repeats this message … and procedes to direct seekers to the inner master for that experience.”
Response: If that is true, then why does he continue to play “master”. And it really does not matter what message he gives, as long as he is not truly awakened into Self-knowledge, and is abiding in steady Self-realization. Is he Self-realized ? I would have to say that there are no indications of that, at all. None. Show me even one clear sign that this individual is abiding in Self-knowledge. There are none. Therefore, he is not a genuine “master” (nor a Sat-Guru) in the real sense of the term.
Nick wrote: “To look upon the master as simply a human being …. He is the shabd in human form as we all are and as he urges us all to realise.”
Response: What is the need to bring the concept of “shabd” into this ? Nick may think that the “master” as well as himself is “shabda in human form”, but he has no right to apply that notion to “we all”. Shabda is not my own view, and Nick does not speak for me. Actually, Nick has mis-quoted, mis-represented, and mis-interpreted my views on a number of different issues. So don’t try to sound as if we all accept certain ideas as being in common. And if you really want to know or learn what I know, then simply ask me, but don’t be so presumptous as to try and tell me where I am at.

Okay, intellectual gloves off and let’s get down to brass tacks. I would like to explore the motivations behind some of the disaffected former RSSB ‘initiates’ (including our correspondent ‘Who am I’) in their hostile sounding and sustained haranguing of all things Sant mat.
Why do the rants of so many former satsangi’s of RSSB sound like the complaints that exes bring to their former lovers? Such a stream of abuse and invective is a common theme amongst all such RSSB detractors in my experience.
If you have a problem with Sant mat then why do you not simply move on and let it alone? Why are you like a dog with a bone? Do you wish to enlighten the deluded who are still stuck in cult land? Perhaps once you’ve finished with us you can tackle extreme Bushism or Tony Blair’s new labour before moving on to ideologically bring Al Qaeda to task! There’s a whole world of the doctrinally deluded out there waiting for some non dual wisdom!
In this response I am going to shift the ‘defense of sant mat’ up a gear by taking the stance of agnostic devotion (which has an advocate in Faqir Chand – a sant mat guru). This view implies that one can experience what is perceived to be the divine Self within, but with no certainty as to what this Self is.
Also, I was prepared to be non personal and engage in discussion in a humorous and friendly fashion. However the gauntlet has been thrown down in Who am I’s response and it is definitely not friendly. Witness the list of invectives that have been applied to my responses alone (I quote a list of expletives that are made about my points):
(Incorrect, Absurd and narrow minded, Hot air blowing, Baseless, Blind, Cow dung!)
The obvious response is that those who go mud slinging are themselves dirty as can be!
Thus this response makes no pretence of being particularly friendly. I aim to quash the stream of near ‘abuse’ made against Sant mat by the Who am I correspondent and to flag up some substantial gaps in the argument that are fully rebutted by the stance of Agnostic devotion. So my rant shall focus on the fundamental ‘UNKNOWINGNESS’ of us all in relation to the ABSOLUTE.
Questions about the absolute are viewed as impenetrable by even the most experienced sages, all claims to the contrary being a conceit and bluff. The basic situation of existence being summed up in the Zen like ‘Koans’ (unsolvable questions that facilitate realisation) of;
‘Why is there something rather than nothing?’
‘What is the nature of any single thing in itself?’
‘Who or what am I?’
Please do not insult readers of this site that your comments are not rooted in hostility and a sense of grievance against RSSB and Sant mat. The tone is obvious and perceptible to anyone with a pulse, let alone any depth of self knowledge. The question is what has generated such hostility? The aggressive and preachy tone also militates against our correspondent having attained a significant degree of self knowledge, which is based on kindness and compassion, with a healthy dose of tolerance. Our correspondent seems hell bent on bringing Sant mat to task, whilst bolstering up his own speculations into Self knowledge which are lauded as ‘experience’. So my question again is what is the motivation behind such sustained attacks?
Let me state again quite clearly my position. I really couldn’t care less about what teaching or dogma is the highest, who is or is not a ‘true’ guru and various shows of learning about various philosophies. My position is to play ‘devils advocate’ to the unending stream of hostility towards Sant mat and RSSB in particular. I am not one of the ‘RSSB faithful’ but someone who has made a deep study of the teachings of Sant mat and those of many other world religions and philosophies.
I am not a sectarian satsangi or even first and foremost an RSSB initiate. The reason for my ‘defense of Sant mat’ is partly because I feel it is unjustified both philosophically and morally to continuously attack a faith and practice without a vigorous rebuttal, and secondly because I question the motivations of those doing so.
In this response I shall tackle some of the comments raised by Who am I and also conjecture on what I believe are some of the motivating factors behind intellectual and moral attacks on RSSB. Rest assured that I would do the same to any teaching or path that was being wantonly attacked, whether it was Christianity against the secularists or the secularists against the Christians. For goodness sake let’s show some care and respect in our dealings with each other’s faiths and feelings!
One of the primary motivations I would suggest is that some ‘ex’ satsangis feel a great sense of letdown, frustration and disappointment at their non achievement of ‘results’ from their (often) many years of Sant mat meditation. This is not surprising as Sant mat does dangle some alluring carrots in front of the seeker in terms of amazing inner regions of light and sound and waves of bliss.
Total non realisation of any of this after years of sustained effort are enough to make anyone feel cheated and as one satsangi said to me recently, ‘to want their time back’. In other words the many long and tedious hours of mantra repetition have yielded absolutely nothing and so humans being what we are we want payback. This sense of time wasted and ‘lack of success’ is one of the basic human factors behind the motivations of sustained Sant mat detractors (I would suggest).
Our greed for inner experiences and the failure to realise them is enough to create extreme hostility amongst some detractors.
This ingrained sense of failure and time wasted is then channelled into attacks against the guru, the teachings, the organisation and ones fellow deluded followers. Anything seems to be grist for the mill in order to vent ones spleen and find someone or something to blame!
First of all, can we conjecture that our ‘Who am I’ correspondent speaks with any inner authority of direct experience? Perhaps and perhaps not! Truly realised sages such as Ramana and Sri Atmananda were said to be did not spend huge amounts of time and energy in talking down other teachings and paths. Indeed Ramana spoke about how nada yoga (and many other methods) can be incorporated into the process of Self Realisation. (Teachings of Ramana Maharshi edited by Arthur Osborne).
Perhaps in the same regard I speak with inner authority of Sant mat realisation, and perhaps not! That is not the issue in question. We can bat back and forth ad nauseum on the metaphysics and the basic premises of Sant mat and a non dual approach. I would like to explore possible reasons for the obvious tone of hostility, aggression and frustration inherent in the comments by ‘Who am I’ and other detractors.
My first response is to question why it took our correspondent 25 years to become disillusioned of what he perceives as the errors of Sant mat. Yes it is correct that pure ‘practice’ of Self enquiry is not to be wholly identified with the ‘philosophy’ of advaita.
However the ‘practice’ is the software of the ‘philosophical hardware’ and the two cannot be separated out. In the same way the technology or practices of Sant mat are simran, bhajan and dhyan, which are not coterminous with the pure experience of inner light and sound. Please do not ask if I have the requisite experience in this area, because the simple rejoinder is to question your vouchsafed ‘experience’ of non dual ‘reality’.
I feel that even the most simple of pundits can make a clear distinction between ‘direct experience’ and ‘philosophies’.
I would argue that the same distinction applies for Sant mat realisations as it does for non dual realisations and that it is futile to claim that ones own offerings result from ‘experience’ whereas others result from ‘philosophising’ because anyone’s experience can be called into question, including ones own.
Who am I wrote:
I have clearly indicated in many of my comments about this issue, that a true or genuine “Sat-Guru” is one who has awakened into Self-knowledge, ie: Self-realization. Abiding thus in Self-knowledge, the genuineness of a Sat-Guru is revealed and “verified” to those who would desire to verify it, through their state of being, their teaching, and their general behavior. Therefore it is quite possible to determine who is a genuine Sat-Guru.
My response: Regarding who is or is not a ‘true guru’. Yes I would agree that there are certain internal ‘barometers’ that one can rely upon to determine the possible genuineness of another’s realisation and the impact of that upon ones own state of consciousness. However in absolute terms this is quite simply not possible. We cannot second guess another persons inner state, we can only say what their effect has been on our OWN inner state. Please let us get rid of absolutes here and in the spirit of Faqir Chand admit our state of ‘unknowingness’. If we are going to play the ‘experience’ hand then is this our correspondents ‘experience’? I can say that I believe certain teachers I have spent time with to be ‘enlightened’ because of their demeanour, state of being and general ‘vibe’ but I cannot prove this in any empirical fashion to the satisfaction of anyone else. What I can say is that this is my purely subjective realisation and nothing else.
Who am I wrote:
Nick is attempting to imply that the dualistic Radha Soami teachings and the R.S .”inner stages of light/sound”, are somehow proceeding towards the “non-dual state of oneness”. This notion is flat-out incorrect.
My Response: Why does our correspondent have such a desire to state that others are incorrect with the implied assumption that he is correct? Please could you or anyone else explain the passages in Kabir, Nanak, Shiv Dayal Singh, Ravidas, Namdev and the Adi Granth and Gurmat Siddhant (Philosophy of the Masters) by Sawan Singh that state quite clearly that the goal of Sant mat is for the ‘drop’ to merge back into the ‘ocean’ and that said ocean is an unqualified state of ‘oneness’, or the ‘One’ behind the ‘many’, or that the ‘One Lord pervades all’.
Indeed Kabir is at a loss to explain this undivided state by saying,’ If I say it is one then that implies two and that is blasphemy. He is what he is says Kabir after profound thought’. Sant mat is everything about realising that one pervading consciousness, it is not flat out incorrect as this correspondent states. I totally stand by my comments that this represents a fundamental misunderstanding of Sant mat and the goal of it’s realisations. Have we been studying the same Sant mat teachings all these years? It’s your problem if you wish to see Sant mat as inherently and only dualistic and focussed on inner phenomena instead of being about realisation of the ‘one’ behind the ‘many’.
Who am I wrote: As I have stated elsewhere, it would be wise for commenters to be truly knowledgable and educated about a particular issue, before making assertions and judgements which have no basis in fact.
My Response: Can we assume that you are truly knowledgeable and that others are not? Is this not a conceit? Who knows who is and who isn’t? Do you have the monopoly on facts regarding Sant mat and how it sits in regard to other teachings? Of course not, your stance is one that is untenable and based on invective not the ‘facts’ which no one knows absolutely.
Who am I wrote:
To justify your criticism of Self-realization, you imply that people are so unintelligent or incapable that all they can handle is some mild guru-bhakti and simple meditation. The fact of the matter is that, blind guru-bhakti and a little mantra meditation will not result in the liberated state of Self-knowledge.
My Response: How can it be stated so categorically that these shabda practices will not yield Self Knowledge? The fact that they may not have done so for you does not mean they will not do so for others. Guru bhakti is not always blind. In some cases maybe, but not for others! Why do you have to deal with absolutes in your obviously embittered assaults on Sant mat?
I stand by the comment that advaita philosophy actually generates the practices of Self enquiry and in general terms is considerably more intellectually rigorous to understand than guru bhakti and mantra meditation.
Nowhere did I say that people are too stupid as you negatively implied. My point is that many seekers ‘desire’ for devotion places them in a position of firstly seeking in AN OTHER before looking inwards as per the previously stated comment by Ramakrishna, ‘I would rather taste sugar than be sugar’.
Try reading any of the non dual teachings of Krishnamurti and you will find them extremely difficult to appreciate and act upon. What I am arguing is that many seekers disposition and general conditioning places them in a position of seeking THAT in another first before turning the eye of contemplation inwards.
Yes quoting endless teachers and philosophies is pointless and does have nothing to do with ones subjective and internal realisations. However my point in flagging up names such as Kabir and Nanak is to state again quite unequivocally that Sant mat teachings are based around the realisation of ‘oneness’ and for the apparent ‘drop’ of consciousness to merge back into its ‘source’. Any other reading of the basic ground and goal of Sant mat is selected, prejudiced and distorted and is more about a desire to hold fast to a flat out quashing of Sant mat than to hold to any questionable ‘facts’.
Regarding Paul Brunton. Is Who am I any more of an authority on PB than me? Please refute the fundamental philosophical issue that Paul Brunton had with advaita claims of absolute non dual union being attainable? You do not wish to engage in philosophical wrangling? This is what this correspondence is all about! The practice of Self enquiry may not be separated from its philosophical underpinning in advaita and hence is open to criticism, as are the presumed ‘results’ or experiences of such enquiry.
Can you be sure that PB did not speak from experience of his own subjective realisation? In PB’s biography, his son (and biographer) clearly states his belief that PB did attain Self realisation in his later years. This was backed up by the opinion of one of the Shankaracharyas of India who believed Brunton to be a ‘holy man’ towards the end of his life. Yes PB did regard Ramana very highly but still had philosophical criticisms of the advaita teachings that Ramana embodied (or had foisted on him in an attempt to understand and bracket him we may conjecture?).
Please do not dismiss philosophy as merely intellectual verbiage. For Brunton it was much more along the lines of a vigorous questioning of claims for inner knowledge and the limits of such inner knowledge. Brunton summed up the inner quest and its results in the phrase ‘agnostic piety’ in that yes, TRANSCENDENT STATES and NON DUAL STATES may be realised, but what those states are in and of themselves or what that ABSOLUTE STATE is towards which they point, remain total MYSTERIES.
Please do not keep denying the close link between pure atma vichara (Self enquiry) and the philosophical structure that underpins and informs it. That is like saying the practice of the Tai Chi form owes nothing to Taoism, whereas the Taoist teachings fully permeate every subtle move of this Chinese martial art.
I am not trying to bolster my criticism of Self enquiry by making reference to the vegetarianism issue. What I would suggest is that the stream of adherence to vegetarianism is much more unequivocal and more plainly stated in Sant mat than in many other traditions I have come across. Witness the very wishy washy stance of Theravada Buddhism where if the animal has not been specifically killed for my consumption then it is acceptable to eat it.
My central point is that the basic ‘position’ of some in the non dual fold (and it is really irrelevant whether this pertains to Who am I or not) can lead to perspectives and practices that are possibly dubious and questionable. Sant mat teachings and practices and philosophical stances are NOT the only ones that are questionable. All systems and techniques are just that, method! They are not indentifiable with the subjective internal realisation itself. My point in all this is that Sant mat method is absolutely no more or less open to criticism than any other method.
I do not believe I have got my aims and targets mixed up at all. If a correspondent is consistently going to attack Sant mat and offer what is believed (in his or her subjective opinion) to be a more complete and experientially superior practice (Self enquiry) then that in itself is completely open to criticism. So are the various exponents and adherents of such a non dual stance. Simply put, if Who am I is going to carpet bomb Sant mat then it can be expected the same can be done to any and all philosophical stances and methods. Please do not deny that Self enquiry is method rooted in an underlying philosophical assumption. That is my main and repeated point in the whole of this response.
Please do not patronise other correspondents with your presumed notion that they do not understand what they are discussing. I am well aware that the non dual stance is about ‘being’ and not ‘doing’. The fact is that ultimately Self enquiry is still ‘doing’ and represents more ‘method’ and hence cannot be inherently superior to any other ‘method’. Method does not compass the very throne of the divine. It is what it is, a groping in the dark to realise something transcendent and ‘spiritual’.
I am going to name drop as I don’t have a problem with checking my subjective assumptions and experiences against those of others. Adyashanti is said to be a realised non dual teacher. He experienced ‘awakening’ after 15 years of sustained Zazen meditation. He then turned round and said that ‘awakening’ is purely spontaneous and not reliant on method. How much method can facilitate it is left open to question?
What I am questioning in Self enquiry is not so much the method itself, but Who am I’s assertion, “Self-realization is the loss of ignorance through one’s awakening into true Knowledge”. Is that your living experience then? If not it is merely conceptual and a statement of belief. In any case if it does result from real introspection then it is your purely subjective realisation and understanding of interior states. Anyone can go around making such glib statements such as ‘I am the Self’ and ‘Self realisation is such and such’.
Soamiji criticises the position of some of these Gyani’s in Sar Bachan by saying that they cannot even sit still in meditation for five minutes without becoming restless.
Response to Who am I on three more points
A.)Nick originally wrote, “there are problems with the non dual approaches and they are not the be all and end all they are cracked up to be.”
Who am I responded:
Is that right? This judgement would necessarily require that Nick has actual direct experience of Self-knowledge and Self-realization, which to my view, he clearly does not. Therefore, how could Nick know that the “non-dual approaches” “are not the be all and end all they are cracked up to be”, if he has not engaged the sadhana of Self-inquiry to its completion ? Answer: He does not know.
My simple response is how do you know that I don’t know? That is nothing more than arrogance and conceit. Likewise I do not know your subjective inner state. That’s it period! My point is that you cannot presume superiority for Self enquiry over Shabd yoga because you do not seem to have concurrently practised both to their highest avowed ends. Therefore you are equally completely unjustified in making value judgements over what ‘method’ does and does not lead to greater inner realisations.
Your whole tone throughout is testament to your completely inadequate realisation of anything so basic as love being the supreme beginning and end of Self realisation. Whence else the desire to be so right where others are ‘incorrect’, ‘ignorant’, ‘full of hot air’, and so many other negatively hostile invectives peppered throughout your responses. If these can be applied to such deluded nitwits such as me and anyone else who points out that nobody has the last word on ultimate reality, then they can quite as easily be applied to yourself.
I freely admit my own ‘unloving ness’ and hence can recognise it clearly in another. So let’s be honest and accept that none of us are there yet (wherever and whatever that is) and that ‘method’ of any kind can only take us so far on the journey inwards.
My further point is that Self enquiry, (as yet another method), has its drawbacks and valid critiques which are every bit as valid as those you seem to feel can only be applied to Sant mat. Do you have any inner experience of what shabd or nada are in their essence? Likewise, I suspect not! You don’t know either! Tit for tat!
Who am I wrote:
Who says the “duality of Sant mat is more practical for most people” ? That is merely your one opinion. The truth of the matter is, that the mind of duality is the cause of all ignorance, suffering, fear, mis-indentification, and separation. Moreover, the idea that duality was “adopted by the guru’s” is also totally relative and mere conjecture. What Guru’s ? Which Guru’s ? And who says they “adopted” “duality”. And are these so-called “guru’s” you are referring to, true and genuine Guru’s ? Nick’s comment is just another fabrication based upon un-related and un-substantiated opinions.
My Response:
Equally it is your opinion that the duality of Sant mat is not more practical for people. More opinion, and yours is not more valid than mine. Both are completely and utterly throw away. Remember that I am the devil’s advocate to stem your tide of negativity towards all things Sant mat. I do not hold hard and fast to my conjectures, but at least I recognise my conjectures for what they are instead of trying to pass them off as ‘Self knowledge’ in a generally superior tone.
Is it correct that duality is the cause of all suffering? Is this a universal TRUTH that applies at all times for all people under all circumstances? Is that our correspondents living experience or more prattling of non dual dogma? I have met many Christians who have been firmly rooted in a dualistic stance in their relation to things eternal, and yet they have demonstrated tremendous spirit, grace and fortitude in the face of difficulties. Their stance helped them cope with some fundamental life problems and see them through to happier times.
It is fundamentally not dualism that is the source of suffering, nor any other philosophical stance, but simply how one responds to any given life situation. As one of the archbishops of Canterbury said, ‘Wisdom is the ability to cope’. Therefore to make glib statements that dualism is the cause of suffering is an enormous and sweeping generalisation.
Yes my statements about the ‘guru’s is complete speculation, given that nobody knows why they ultimately adopted the stances they did. For readers gratification I was referring to the shabd based lineages of the Sikh guru’s and forerunners such as Kabir and Ravidas etc. I think it would have been better phrased that these guru’s have used some dualistic assumptions to support progress towards a state of oneness. Please do not insult any readers’ intelligence that the goal of Sant’s is not that of ‘oneness’. The Adi Granth is full of references to the ‘drop’ merging into the ‘ocean’ (I have already laboured this point at least two times but want to hammer it home).
How do you know that the gurus of the Sikh lineage were not enlightened? How do you know whether or not Kabir and Nanak were enlightened? Given that nobody ultimately can know another’s subjective state for sure I would conjecture that the reports of their reported realisations in their writings are just as reliable as the testimony and confession of such sages as Sri Ramana.
Ultimately I don’t know any more than you do! Please do not give the impression over and over again that you know and that others do not when the brutal truth is that none of us know for sure ABSOLUTELY. Therefore your implied opinions that perhaps these shabd based gurus (of course) are not ‘true’ gurus are just as baseless and unsubstantiated as mine!!!
Who am I wrote:
Nick wrote: ” Sant mat meditation and devotion can and do work in transporting one from suffering and duality into more expanded and steady states of being.” – and – “It all depends how you go about it and with what maturity, intelligence and compassion you bring to it.”
Response: If that were true, then you would have a fair number of satsangis who are free from “suffering” and who are “into more expanded and steady states of being.” Maybe Nick knows some satsangisa like that, but I have seen none.
My response: How do you know someone else’s interior state? You do not know anyone else’s state of freedom from suffering. My conjecture is based on my own subjective realisation and the statement that any ‘method’ is as good as any other and from contact with some satsangi’s in the UK. Lets state it again, Self enquiry cannot categorically be demonstrated to be superior to Shabd yoga or to Zazen or Sufi Zikr or Catholic contemplative prayer. What are into here? League tables of what is the best or which gurus are the best? How puerile! Ultimately nobody knows and so any method that leads away from suffering in the practitioners own subjective experience has got to be useful and worthwhile!
I can confirm to readers that I have met large numbers of practitioners of Self enquiry and Sant mat and amongst neither set can it clearly be determined who may or may not have realised interior states of freedom. Certainly the practitioners of Self enquiry do not in my experience manifest to any greater degree, the spiritual graces of love, tolerance, compassion and freedom from narcissitic obsessions than do the followers of Sant mat.
Again I would question why you wish to single out satsangis or followers of Sant mat for your criticism? What is the underlying motivation in all this? Readers already know some of my speculations on this issue! Why not bang on about the inadequacies of Zen students, or the lack of devotion of Sufi followers? Why are you so obsessed with Sant mat and its perceived drawbacks? Please spare us the refrain that you are disillusioning people of their ‘blind’ beliefs? Who are you to judge? If this is part of your motivation then why don’t you start on the Christians next, and then the Muslims and then the Buddhists? There’s a whole world out there of faulty doctrines and befuddled spiritual practitioners just waiting to be relieved of their illusory burden and suffering!
Who am I said:
Nick wrote: “….Ramana Maharshi and the Shabd yoga master Sawan Singh.” …..”Very very few can start off with the ‘right’ orientation to begin with as we are so externally driven, and hence that necessitates the outer guru for most seekers”Response: Nick has here mentioned Ramana Maharshi and Sawan Singh in the same breath, in the same context, and such a comparison is fairly misleading. These two individuals are very very different. The teaching of Sri Ramana Maharshi is not the same as the teaching of Sawan Singh (which he merely acquired from his guru, Jaimal Singh).
Sri Ramana was a fully enlightened Sage (Jnani) who abided in profound Self-knowledge.
My response:
How do you know that Sawan Singh only ‘merely aquired’ a transmission from his guru and did not internally realise it for himself? Again you do not know (neither do I!) and have strayed into arrogance and presumption yet again!
There is a passage in ‘Spiritual Gems’ by Sawan Singh, where he states that the way he ‘won his way inside’ to self realisation is by shabd yoga. Thus Sawan Singh made a confession of his inner realisation as did Sri Ramana.
Sri Ramana’s state is your own subjective opinion! I would agree with it but still recognise it as my subjective opinion. None of this can be proved ultimately (more Agnostic devotion here!). Please do not respond with the non dual platitude that there are no others and no subjective states. It cannot be proven categorically that what you are saying is the TRUTH. You believe it to be so based on your subjective experience, as do I!
The reason I mentioned both teachers in the same breath is that they were contemporaries who drew large numbers of followers from rural India and from the west. They are quite pertinent in our discussion of the relative merits of shabd yoga and self enquiry as these were their respective methods.
Who am I wrote:
As a matter of unargueable fact, Sant Mat dogma (Swamiji in Sar Bachan) falsely criticises all other paths such as Jnana, Buddhism, Advaita, and both the dualism of the vedic Vaishnavaism, and the non-dualism of the vedic Shaivism and Brahmanism to be quite ‘inferior’ and of ‘a lower plane’. This reveals this particular ignorant and unenlightened false negative bias which is promoted by Sant Mat and subscribed to by its various proponents. None of those who criticise Self-realization and Jnanis (like Sant Mat does), have any first-hand knowledge or direct experience of that which they are criticising. It is simply a bunch of talk, by those who do not know.
My response:
How do you know that Sant mat makes false criticisms? How do you know for sure that this is negative and unenlightened? How do you know for sure that the Sant mat point of view articulated by Soamiji is not correct? You do not know and neither do I! How do you know that Soamiji did not speak out of experience of the inner states of Jnana yoga and that he then experienced something he believed to be higher?
The fact is that Soamiji claimed Sant mat to be higher in it’s realisations than Jnana or advaita. The equal fact is that you claim superiority (in terms of depth and reach and practicality of realisation) for the non dual teaching, in the vein of Da Free John and Ken Wilber (if you do not like being compared to other pundits then tough! These commentators have approximately the same view as yourself in my estimation! Of course I admit I could be wrong which, is something you seem incapable of doing!)
Is the simple fact not one of UNKNOWINGNESS! Are you any more or less biased and ignorant than those you criticise? You should admit the possibility that the Sant mat point of view (as formulated by Soamiji) may be correct, just as I admit the possibility that non dual teachings may be superior and better for the seeker.
Interested readers should consult the Neural Surfer (David Lane) for a full exploration of this issue in his, ‘Enchanted Land’ book on the net.
Who am I stated.
Nick wrote: “Ramana’s realisation occurred at age 17 through a profound dichotomy and dissociation between body and mind (Self).Response: Yes generally, but there is one significant error in your terminology. “Mind” is not the Self. The Self is pure consciousness.
My response:
I knew you would bring me to task on this one, which is why I left it in! Paul Brunton (aforementioned Ramana devotee) was of the opinion that all is MIND (the teaching of idealism or Mentalism). There are thus differing manifestations of this overarching one MIND. Brunton used the terms MIND, Self or Overself interchangeably as ultimately they are all WORDS pointing towards something greater. You are getting hooked on technical niceties of definition instead of hearing the meaning behind my comments!
Who am I stated:
Nick wrote: “…he realised he was the animating Self within the body..”
Response: This is incorrect. According to Sri Ramana’s own testimony, he never considered the Self to be “within the body”. He clearly indicated many times, that the Self was pure Consciousness and not inside the body. He clearly indicated that all thoughts, perceptions, body, and false-ego (ahamkara) are within the mind, which is within the Self. The Self is not contained within a body, or within anything.
My response:
As you seem to love saying that other people are ‘incorrect’ then I am going to start playing. You clearly have no idea that Ramana also indicated that the location of the Self within the body is at the right side of the chest two digits below the breast bone. Thus he gave a physical locus for a non physical state or realisation. This is one of the apparent paradoxes in his teaching. In his atma vichara he urged seekers to plunge inwards towards the source of the Self located at the right side of the chest. Many commentators have yet to get to the bottom of what he meant by giving a physical locus to a universal state.
Who am I commented:
Nick wrote: “…as he was so absorbed in inner communion with the Self.”Response: “The Self” is not only “inner”. Sri Ramana was not so much “absorbed in inner communion”, as he was steadily abiding as the Self. The idea of “inner communion” has a slight dualistic tone. This is the problem. People trying to describe the state and/or realization of a Sage, without having any direct experience of Self-knowledge themselves.
My response:
Anyone has difficulty describing their own subjective realisations let alone those of others. Yes it sounds dualistic. Do you have the direct experience so as to be able to understand Sri Ramana’s state better than other commentators?
Who am I wrote:
How does Nick know whether Sri Ramana would “leave the body consciousness” ? The fact is that you do not know. A true Jnani such as Ramana Maharshi, abides in the awakened state, which is inclusive of all other states. It is highly likely that Sri Ramana did not leave body consciousness, although it may have appeared so from the view of outsiders.
My response:
The equal fact is that you do not know that he did not do this! How do you know what Jnani’s are like in essence? Are you one of them? Are you not repeating dogma just as much as any devotee of Sant mat repeats their dogma and just as much as Catholic devotees speculate on the love of their saints?
The simple agnostic truth is that you do not know for sure! You have a set of experiences that you suggest to be the TRUTH and so do I.
I merely repeat the approximate statement of his condition as given by some devotees at the time (Brunton included). Please be honest in stating that your conjecture is no more valid than mine. It is all a case of how you word it. Words do not fit an inner experience, whether of ones own or another’s.
Who am I commented:
Nick wrote: “All of this is highly analogous to the intent and goal of sant mat spiritual practices”.Response: Absolutely and positively not true. The intent and goal of Sant Mat is described very very differently from that of Self-realization, and in fairly dualistic terms and orientation. It is foolish to try to fabricate some similarity or commonality. The basic premise, and the basic strategy, is very different between the two. The goal of Sant Mat is not clearly delineated or defined, other than a vague sense of reaching the higher plane of Sach Khand and reposing in the “lap of the Sat Purush”. Such babble sounds attractive to the unawakened, but it is too much like religious mythology, cosmology, and dogmatic belief, for my sense of reality.
My response:
Who are you to deal in absolutes? Do you know more in all recorded history than any other poor mortal? How do you know for sure that the avowed goal of Sant mat is not oneness and for the ‘drop’ to merge in the ‘ocean’? How can you prove that the basic premise and strategy are different? You cannot prove this and neither can I!
What on earth were Kabir, Namdev, Dadu, Paltu, Dariya and Nanak and Sawan Singh talking about when they said that the Lord is absolute Oneness and that merging back into the source of light and sound and all manifestation is the goal of spirituality? It is there in their writings for any one to see! It’s up to you if you choose not to see it!
Listen to your own babble mate! Your unkind invectives do not do a job of convincing anyone of the assumed superiority of your views. They are simple and clear testimony that you don’t know what you are talking about with any ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY any more than me or any other visitor to this site.
Just because you have an axe to grind about Sant mat and have some outstanding personal grievances (probably because of what are seen as wasted years following what are to you untenable dogmas and total lack of inner experience) do not assume that you now know better than others and have discovered a superior point of view. For that’s what it is ultimately, just another point of view in the face of eternity!
Is it foolish to search for commonality in a fragmented world? Is that not the essence of holism or are you more content to sit and grind your Sant mat axe and prepare your next stream of derogatory comments about the path. Isn’t it foolish to assume that ones point of view is necessarily superior without any conclusive evidence to back it up? We are all in the same boat of UNKNOWINGNESS, whether we like it or not!
Some pundits and teachers have flagged up the important role that mythology and cosmology have to play in facilitating inner transformation (witness Joseph Campbell) and that ultimately mythic language is all we have for describing that which cannot be described.
Who am I wrote:
Nick wrote: “…the seeker is not to stay hooked on inner plane phenomena but to press on to the non dual state of Oneness…” Response: If that is really true, then why bother with “inner plane phenomena” at all ? This is my point. Sant Mat and RSSB is riddled with contradictions which confuse, mislead, and distract people from the spiritual enlightenment of awakening to Who they really are, and what true Self-realization is reallly all about. The inner planes are nothing but a virtual labyrinth of duality, illusion, and mind, which can all be overcome in an instant, through the awakening of Self-knowledge.
My response:
Inner plane phenomena can be used a means of negotiation and that is all. You can go from Birmingham to London (in the UK where I am from) direct via the M6 motorway and see no nice scenery on the way, or you can go round the houses on the bypasses and see plenty of nice countryside. Either way you end up in London. This would be my analogy for shabd paths versus non dual paths. Would you also argue that everything in the physical world is simply illusory mind stuff? That is what the teaching of Mentalism states. Then please don’t ever go to a nice beach or forest or mountain range again for your delectation and pleasure as these are simply misleading mind stuff!
Please don’t play the experience card yet again. You don’t have experience of the merging into the source of shabd spoken of by the Sants so therefore you cannot state CATEGORICALLY that the non dual route is better!
Who am I wrote:
Nick seems to be doing nothing more than parroting the same old Sant Mat / RSSB dogma. I would respect his opinions and theories aa bit more, if he spoke from his own direct experience and knowledge, and not simply resort to same old second-hand opinions and notions that all the other blind followers of RSSB try to use as supposedly valid arguments. The best thing to do is not to waste your time foolishly defending RSSB, but simply apply yourself to real Self-inquiry, and realize true Self-knowledge and enlightenment in your very own case. Then you won’t need to subscribe to, believe in, or argue about, anything. You will have direct tacit experience of the awakened state of Self-knowledge.
My response:
How do you know for sure where I speak from? How do you know that my views do not arise from sustained and long standing introspection? How do you know that I am parroting second hand views? I would respect your views more if they weren’t sustained so much by your personal issues with Sant mat and your overtly hostile stance to this particular teaching. Who are you to say who is blind or who isn’t? Are you up there with Jesus in saying we will all fall into the ditch? I’ll join you there mate!
Why are you equally wasting your time with continuous and sustained attacks against a teaching that you manifestly have no inner experience of whatsoever? If you have got the inner experience of the sants and the bliss of shabd they speak of then why did you leave Sant mat?
So long as mean minded detractors continue to mash down others faith and feelings in cyberspace then there will be thorns in your flesh like me to contend with! The day we can all meet and discuss as students of a hundred schools in a caring and supportive manner, then perhaps we will both stop wasting our time?!!
Clearly you do not have any experience of the shabd path in its essence so don’t play that card with me! For me I do not give a stuff about defending Sant mat per se, what aggrieves me is the total lack of humility and compassion manifest in your views and of so many other RSSB detractors! Why not simply say, ‘well it’s not for me any more’ and move on. Why not say, ‘So long and thanks for all the fish’ a la Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy?
Why do you have to vent your spleen so much in such an unkind way? It doesn’t take a degree in psychology to see that you have ‘issues’ with Sant mat and that these are not to do with higher spiritual discernments, but are to do with the muck and dirt of personal disappointment, blame, frustration and sense of betrayal. Why not come clean and admit all this dirty laundry instead of hiding behind a smokescreen of a now assumed higher and better realisation.
Who am I wrote:
Nick wrote: ” The facts are that we do not truly know what sort of universe we are inhabiting.”Response: Perhaps you yourself do not know, but those who have awakened into Self-knowledge do know. Of course I disagree on both statements. But first, the simple answer: There is NO “something”, and there is NO “nothing”. There is neither a “something”, nor is there a “nothing”. Both are mere dualistic mental constructs. Reality transcends the illusion and mystery of duality.
My further response:
What kind of arrogant garbage is this!? Congratulations, you have the secret to LIFE, THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING that no other mortal has ever attained! Even the great Socrates admitted at the end of his life that he did not know the why and wherefore of the universe. This is the distinction between true knowledge (which is to admit that one does not know- Divine ignorance!) and the posturing of assuming one can ‘know’ anything for certain about things ABSOLUTE.
Please then answer the following questions (OR quote some sage who does know) with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY once and for all time!
Regarding the universe and our place in it:
1. Why is there something rather than nothing ?
2. Did this something have any ultimate beginning or has it always been?
3. If it had a beginning what was there before the beginning?
4. What is any single thing in itself in its ultimate essence?
5. Who or what am I ultimately?
Answers on a postcard please! Even the greatest of sages throughout history have had to admit defeat when confronting these biggies. That includes Sri Ramana, Socrates, Plato, Plotinus, Nanak, Kabir, Rumi and on and on!
PLEASE OH PLEASE do not dare to resort to non dual platitudes that these questions result from a sense of dualism and that they disappear in Self Realisation. What unbelievable twaddle! More conceptual bluffing! Just get on and answer them dude and stop making claims that anyone can know the why and the wherefore ASSOLUTELY!
The simple truth is that no one who has ever lived has been able to answer these to any satisfactory degree. Once again a big triumph for AGNOSTIC UNCERTAINTY!
With regards to the Ramakrishna comment about tasting sugar rather that being sugar. How do you know that it is not a universal truth? Do you know what is? The fact is that Ramakrishna alternated between a devotional dualistic bent and a non dual absorption bent. Both have extremely valid insights to bear. He didn’t stay stuck in one camp or the other but chose to articulate profound insights from both sides of the fence.
You may think that the whole Sant mat process and presumption is a waste of time. Good for you! You obviously know better than all the sants of recorded history as you know the better way! I do not dispute that starting with a non dual premise has some advantages but it is still only ‘method’ and ‘posture’. You can just as easily start off with Hatha yoga and go the distance. What I have a problem with is the inherently hinted at superiority for your current stance and posture (which will remain your subjective truth and not a universal truth).
Regarding cults
Who am I said:
The funny thing is: that no one is forcing them to follow, to believe, or to cling to anything. It is all their own ignorance (absence of Self-knowledge) which causes them to feel any need to belong to, or to believe in, anything or anyone..
My response:
‘Them’ being poor deluded and blind RSSB devotees. Who made you a self appointed cult monitor? Any type of behaviour and attitude can constitute a cult, whether it has a thousand members or only one. Most of us belong to the CULT of our own ego’s and desperate desire to be right and to put others to rights.
IN SUMMARY
I would like to sum up my argument with one more comment from Who am I and then proceed to close before bowing out. It’s holiday time here in the UK and my mission has been accomplished. I have wanted for many years to visit a website where Sant mat detractors are having their day and challenge this torrent of criticism. I feel I have now done this to some degree or other and ask that others out there take up the cudgels and not let these people trample all over others faith and disposition without giving some grief in return?!
In closing I have to say that I have tried to keep this friendly but your general attitude would test the patience of a saint.
In summary your stance is one of intolerance, arrogant presumption of ‘Self knowledge’ where others are believed not to know anything, assumed superiority of Self enquiry over shabd yoga and any other ‘method’, and a host of glib statements such as ‘dualism is the cause of suffering’. You are every bit as dogma driven as any Sant mat faithful I have ever met and just as smug in your point of view.
Please also do not presume to tell me or anyone else where you think we are at as you simply do not know! I could equally turn round and say that I am not the Self as that is not my way! How childish! These are all words (Shabd, Self, Shakti, Atma, Purush, Buddha nature). Please do not get lost in technical niceties of meaning as you perceive them. They are all words groping in the dark and pointing towards something more universal about our inherent nature and its relationship to the cosmos.
Equally I can say that you have misunderstood and misquoted me ad nauseam but it doesn’t get us anywhere!
Who am I wrote:
Reality transcends the illusion and mystery of duality.
My parting shot:
1. Sants have and do teach a path to Oneness
The sants have made this argument about duality as well as the non dual sages. Or were Kabir, Nanak, Ravidas, Namdev and all the others making it all up as they were poor deluded shabdists? The references in the Adi Granth to the one behind the many and the all pervading Lord are too many to infer that the sants did not teach a path to Oneness. That is my main issue in this overlong correspondence.
Please do not deny this any longer! If you wish to distinguish between what these sants have said and what you perceive RSSB says then I do not have an issue with that. As we can recognise though, RSSB does not encompass the totality of Sant mat anymore than Sri Ramana fully encompassed the non dual teaching.
2. Shabd yoga vs Self Enquiry – the jury is out and always will be!
Please also do not infer that the pure non dual ‘method’ of Self enquiry is superior to shabd ‘method’ in its essence. Quite simply put you are not in a position to make this value judgement (neither am I!). Equally it cannot be demonstrated that Self enquiry is inherently ‘better’ or more effective than Zazen, Sufi zikr or Catholic contemplative prayer. The last appeared to work quite well for Meister Eckhart, Teresa of Avila, Juan de la Cruz and others who practised a version of it. They were rooted in a firmly dualistic stance and yet their recorded realisations are definitely of a non dual perspective.
It cannot be demonstrated (QUITE CATEGORICALLY) what is and what is not the best ‘method’ and any ‘method’ is not THAT in itself.
3. AGNOSTIC UNCERTAINTY
Nobody alive and nobody who has ever lived has ever presented comprehensive answers with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY to the five big questions I posed earlier. That is because nobody (not even the greatest of non dual sages or the sants) has the answer. The principle of AGNOSTIC impregnability holds true. This is a vast and unfathomable mystery we live in and to claim that anyone alive or dead has plumbed it to its full depths is plainly silly!
4. Tolerance and compassion are everything
Where is the tolerance and understanding and AGNOSTIC UNCERTAINTY in any of the views voiced by our Sant mat detractors? It is not there to any discernable degree, having been lost under the heavy mental baggage of needing to vent their spleens about any and all things Sant mat.
When the principle of AGNOSTIC UNCERTAINTY is embraced then compassion can flow. If we even slightly think we have the better way and that others are (and I quote verbatim from Who am I’s list of invectives:- ‘Incorrect, Absurd and narrow minded, Hot air blowing, Baseless, Blind’) then we are in sticky territory.
Obviously those who go throwing this stuff around at others must be full of it themselves. Takes one to know one as the classroom ditty goes! Sorry Who am I but you are speaking out of your proverbial base chakra mate! The fact that you have turned into a non dual ninny does not now mean you have the better way! Why not graciously leave others to work out their own salvation as the Buddha advised? Why not accept that Sant mat is not the path for you and leave it at that?
It is clear where all this stuff is coming from and it’s not from higher discernment and compassion. Those two leave others alone or at least help in constructive and kind ways.
RSSB and Sant mat detractors are so full of barely disguised resentment, anger, hostility and righteous indignation at the perceived waste of time their involvement with Sant mat was felt to be. I have met several such people and they all manifested the same type of aggrieved and hostile intent towards their former path.
Baseline is: you can start from anywhere and nowhere (Wicca, Non dualism, Advaita, Sant Mat, Sufism, Catholicism, Agnosticism) and ‘realise’ some profound inner truths and perhaps even universal truths.
5. Any stance and posture can exhibit CULT ivated tendencies
This applies to organisations of a million members, a thousand members or ones own subjective state with all it’s neuroses, identifications, beliefs, assumptions, value judgements, egotism, sense of right and wrong and so on and on!
Please do not look any further than your own mind with all its thoughts, words and deeds for more than ample evidence of CULT ivated tendencies!!
It may be that followers of any spiritual group can be labelled as belonging to a cult. Paul Brunton had issues with some of the higher level followers of Sri Ramana Maharshi as they effectively barred him from visiting Sri Ramanashramam towards the end of the sages life. Brunton kept good relations of affection and mutual regard with Ramana but thereafter referred to the ‘sectarian followers of Ramana Maharshi’. Thus anyone and any group can and does exhibit cultish tendencies. Contrary to Who am I’s arrogant opinion that followers do not wish to recognise the nature of the group they belong to; I am more than happy to do this but point out that this is a universal tendency and not the sole property of Sant Mat and RSSB.
Do not be so quick to judge. You have more than your own fair share of cow dung than to then go flinging it around at ‘others’.
This more comprehensive view of CULT ‘ism’ takes the sting of judgementalism out of the equation and places the critique back where it belongs; with our own nature.

Dear ‘who i am’
Do you realise, you and Netemara are one and not two..and so are you and Nick..and rather all of us. So why this verbal ‘duel’ about duality and non duality? This site is fast becoming a useless mental exercise rather than a scientific spiritual forum for constructive discussion. We are moving away from spiritualism…Do we intend to?

yo bro going down slow!

Here Here. I think we have a couple of wannabe book authors. Been on the path since ’70 and mostly It is my idea of perfection but there are many flaws I find in it. Maybe its me but when my guru Charan Singh said I would not take on Karma killing someone in ‘Nam if it was on orders, I don’t think Jesus would agree and I know I don’t. When he said to pay your taxes because as Jesus said “give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s…”, I don’t agree. Taxes pay for war, and Jesus WAS hauled before the roman court on 2 charges, one of which was preaching non payment of taxes. We have to choose to aspire to God or serve Kal. Sant Mat makes an excellent case for aspiring to God. All those following any path towards God are my brothers. Meditation and surrender is the key to Love consciousness.

i am a 25 year young guy.i read some of the monthly books from science of the soul research centre .In the beggining if felt i cant understand abt this path ,as i started reading those books that really help me a lot in many ways.i felt it help to develop a better personality.each and every word inspires me and make me think what is my final destiny.

Why do we all spend so much time moaning about other sevadars and followers? Religion is a personal thing – none of these people will be there when we die and we can hardly start complaining to ‘God’ about “he did this and she did that” etc… we should worry about improving ourselves and do as much research about various religions as we desire.

well…guys…all you people say is all absurd!!!!….this is a big money laundering politics on earth…ealier there were people from STATEhood who used to dupe inocents in d name of NATION…now religions are the weapons in the name of salvation…but why salvation????….cant people on earth co operate and create it a better world…see d world around…its all empty with vast tracts of land unoccupied…we just need to CONVINCE people and use resources for development here…rather than the abroad…thats next life!!!….eat drink sleep with woman around…and merry…no salvation please..!!!…its been around for over five thousand years////….bye…fuck off radha’s soami!!!!…OSHO rules now!!!>>>

Ok lets get to the basics on things here.
The so called faith the “Radhaswamis”… started with a bloke called Swami Dyal Singh, his Mrs was called Radha, wot this bloke said was the purpose of this life is to make the Radha (soul) unite with its Swami (God)through meditation. Apparently the Khalsa through the guidance of its Shabad Guru (Nanak XI)Granth Sahib all ready talkd about this, heres an example from the Guru “The Gurmukh is the happy and pure soul-bride forever. She keeps her Husband Lord enshrined within her heart.” Ang [limb] 31.
So what happened next was there came other individuals who succeeded “the throne” of Swami Dyal Singh. Then, suddenly it had a change indirection, the next generation of successors started adopting the Sikh form and thus a donkey dressing itself in lionskin!
This donkey deluded the animals(ignorant people) around it and the animals started following it like peter piper playing the flute. The music Peter was playing was Gurbani and enticed the mice into thinking he was the “Master” (Guru) rather than the Satguru (true guru) Granth Sahib. It plagerised material from the Satguru and claimed it as his own work – a true plagerist.
So, the ignorant and blind Sikhs of Punjab are following these so called “Masters” who are actually are thieves. These “sikhs” who do not know the value of a diamond, have left a precious diamond for a shell on a beach.

So all of the above mental mishmosh was kicked off by the illusion that the soul starts off separate from God? Yikes, this suffering-in-life could use a good editor.

Hi to every ‘seeker’ here. This was the first time i visited this site and to my surprize am amazed of myself as being 19 yrs old sparing time and putting up a post.
Its indeed so nice to see even the one’s who think ‘they follow the right path’ knows so much about the other paths. I won’t say religion instead of path because we all know by now that a religion is something created by humans and the right way to god is a path not a religion.
Maybe am too young to understand all this but I think religion is nothing but people following people, that also includes children following their parents.
Spirtualism is not a religion and i can bet my life for that. Its the way. Religions all over the world are MIS-INTERPREATIONS of this way.
The candles or any other things which our lit in temples, churches etc are the mis-interpretations of the actual way. The original sense in this case is the light within.
For example if i tell you something and i ask you to go and say it to somebody after half an hour…More or less the meaning of what i have told you will change.
This is the difference.
Thus there is a need of a Guru. Even if anybody reads spirtual books and follow spirtualism without a Guru he is bound to Mis-interpret the way to reach God.
There are three things which i feel i have understood till now in my life i.e.
Spirtualism or to be more precise Meditation is the one and only way.
It cannot be reached without a Guru and,
Its your choice whom you choose your Guru but there is only one real Guru Like there is only one God.
Thanks & Regards
Satvik

2 reasons I left.
1) not one person of the radha-soami satsang beas membership, who i have talked to, has ‘gone within’. It simply doesn’t exist.
2) many radha-soamis claim that the master (gurinder singh) is God, and therefore he should know all things. but when it comes to question/answer time, he sometimes cannot hear or understand the question. No, he is not divine.

all gurus are really liars.
all guru cults are built upon lies.
all followers of gurus and guru cults are deceived and foolish people.
all these gurus are liars and so all their answers are false.

Thanks Brian, Thanks Netemara,
Nick i agree w/ you about “who am i”.
Who am i, much of your source comes from kirpal, who signed a legal document on admitting defamation of caractor so i can never believe his accounts of history.
I singh, please don’t ever tell people what they should say or not say. I like hearing peoples accounts and i need it.
I’ve always hated that slave dogma.
Thanks Nick.

I was put on this path almost 30 years ago.
I believe in the meditation and I believe in the vegetarianism. I’m thankful for those two things.
Just from my small family I have seen vegetarianism spread in the school, the workplace and my neiborhood. And w/ it the inherant kindness.
The meditation seems to be like a kind of food or nutrition.
I don’t believe anything else because there’s no evidence for it and no use in it.
If you believe in destiny, you’ll become a loser. It’s obvious we can and do make the future.
If you believe in karma, your always believing in a reward coming. Do the right thing because it’s right. There is no karma except instant karma, and we make that and can see it ojectively.
And, like someone recently said, there are no ages, golden, iron, dirt or ice cream. There are no ages.
Also, I believe in Spirit and that we can find it. “the force that drives evolution and the goal of evolution, are the same thing”.

RSSB initiates who have spent most of their adult lifes following the guru can not let go of the path. They have vested too much, given up on trying to be part of society. They can not let go, too let go would be too die a horrible death in their psyche being. So they will keep on believing the lies of Sant Mat and do their best to avoid anyone or anything that would make them have to question Sant Mat. Truly, they have become people of the lie.

The people who thinks Gurus are lier, this means they do not have knowledge of sant mant.Talking about question answer session with great masters that they don’t give right answers of the question. It is the narrow thinking of people that they are unable to understand the Masters. people always want some magic from Guru. But The great guru(called Shabad or God) never show magic. According to our karams we have to spent our life. The relation between us and Great master (Guru) is the relation of soul and shabad. They don’t come in the world to give us small happiness just for one life, they come in the world to withdraw us from the sady world and make us happy forever.
So many sants and guru came in the world. When they are presently in the world, we never follow them. We always critice their teachings. We critice Cries, Gurunanak, Gurugobind, Swamiji, Mohammand sahib and presently critice Great master of Radha Soami. When people will read the litratures like Bible of Christian,Kuran Sreef of Muslim, Granth Sahib of Gurunank,Sarbachan of Swami Ji then they will be able to know , What is Guru,God,Shabad,Truth and Divine Melody. All these names point to one thing i.e. GOD.
One thing i would like to tell, very rare people have luck to love Great master and God.Initiation does not mean that your karmas are finished. You have to workhard to withdraw your conciousness back to the eye centre as per the Guru’s instruction.
It is not the mistake of people that they are criticising Guru, It is their karmas.

When sitting in the prescence of a practicing meditation teacher whether it be Charan Singh or Gurinder Singh -one experiences bliss,happiness and joy.Their eyes beaming with the power of God. When sittng in an interview situation and talking to the master one experiences the same degree of love and limitless wisdom.
Then one thinks about how these enlightenned ones became so spiritual-the answer is through being a good disciple. And following the teachings, seems to be the recipe for success. Not being a nay sayer or negating the teachings-but living them.
Common sense seems to be the moniker of the mystics;either you are on the bus or off the bus. We have to be practical, do we want spirituality or do we want to follow the mind,ego and all the negativity that can come from an unfocussed mind. The masters say we must be positive, no matter what our fate; spirituality is caught not taught-if one wants to worship the father the father will arrange circumstance for you to worship the father.When the disciple is ready the master appears. So long live the internet,libraries,rock bands,hip hop etc-the word lives.
ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE
then with the love one can move on to self realisation
self recovery and survival……
LOVE attracts other lovers-building blocks-supports etc

This is in ref. to Nick’s post of September 6, 05.
Wow, Nick. Your post gives a whole new meaning to the word articulate. I am in awe. If I were on a debate team, I’d certainly want you on my side!

Beas dera door hai jaana bhi zaroor hai satguru de pyaar ne kitta majboor hai.
..Radha Swami..

ALWAYS FAITH ON GOD & REMEMBER ‘GOD IS ONE’

@Satvik
@ex-seeker
The points to be noted are the following
1)Any Master no matter how much He is “divine” would never ever make a show-off of his divinty..
So,Mr Satvik..my dear friend..The master would act as normal human being only.He would never make any one feel that he is way above others.All his senses will work as if he is simple and a very normal person to talk with..Mr Satvik.plz tell me that is ii necessary to “behave” divine to show your divinty.Well to make you very clear.the biggest asset of true divinty is modesty..The one who is “the truly divine” is simply non-existant for others.He has no reason to indulge in any kind of flamboyance
Masters behave like us.They set an example for us to be like normal persons while searching for the “path” within
2)Secondly that u hav met ppl who havn gone “inside”…plz note this fact that .it is not a cakewalk to go “inside”..it is by no means an easy task.It requires infinite toil nd blessings of the Master himself.so that a person can go”inside”
My dear friend,the proof of the pudding lies in eating..You try once urself with full determonation nd then see for urself the result.

To Varun:
Your comment is nothing but a cheap and lame excuse for avoiding the real truth that the so-caled “master” is just as human and just as ordinary as anyone.
These fakes who call themselves “masters”, as well as their gullible followers as you appear to be, desire for others to blindly accept and believe – without any shred of evidence – the false notion that the master is somehow extraordinary and divine.
You and others have used this lame excuse that such an embodiment of the divine would not “ever show off” for a long time. It relies on faith and belief only. It has no scientifically proven basis.
We are told to accept and believe without question that a so-called sant mat “sant” or “master” is GIHF, that he descends from the spiritual realm and has the power to liberate souls from the domain of space, time and mortal existence.
However, there is not the least of evidence anywhere that any of the many disciples and initiates of these so-called sant mat “masters” have gained liberation and spiritual enlightenment. In fact, by and large sant mat satsangis evidence quite the contrary.
“Masters behave like us.” — Of course they do…they are no better than or more godly that anyone.
“It requires infinite toil nd blessings of the Master himself.” — Utter ignorant nonsense. You cannot know or say how it is for anyone else.
“You try once urself with full determonation nd then see for urself the result.” — More nonsense and denial. Many sadhakas have done so…and with very little or no appreciable result or realization at all.
Why is it that belief peddlers like Varun bother coming to sober-minded sites like this to push their blind faith and their dogmatic beliefs? Why don’t you go to other places where you can preach your sant mat dogma to sympathetic fellow satsangi believers? Why do you insist on repeatedly trying to convince others and foist your religion on people who are just not interested because they have progressed and matured beyond it? Why don’t you just go and practice your beliefs without always trying to impose them on others? What is the matter with you people?

If in the world we r here,so what here for what think we gonna take with us only our earning of shabad rest remains here and always be.rest all is big lie

Well…that clarifies things.

God has made dogs meant to bark, so they are doing their job.Some humans are born with animal instincts, you cannot blame them because they are unfortunate due their deeds.so let them do their duty and we the lucky souls, will do ours.RADHASOAMI

I thought that sant mat might be the true path, and I was attracted to Sant Thakar Singh and during my reasearch I came across some news reports in which he was accused of sexuale abuse of satsangis. And supposadly admitted it was due to the negative power trying to influence him.
Every guru I have reserched seems to have some sort of contraversy associted with him/her.
I think the worse one seems to be Sathya SAi Baba he has been accused of abusing young boys. Who knows why people follow these scum.
The true guru is GOD.I have given up on Gurus and look directly to god,forget all the fakes.
In the words of shrishivabalayogi:
“Your proper and regular meditation is the only source of day-to-day peace,
bliss, prosperity and happiness. Meditation becomes easy if practiced for an hour daily.
All the doubts are dissolved, questions resolved and all the problems of life are
solved by meditation.” ~Sri Swamiji
Please note he does not push any doctrine or Guru worship. He suggests you find out the truth for your self by the above practice. I have decided to follow his advice implicitley.

It was nice to read all the comments (it took me more than 2 hours). My simple conclusion is that one should follow a path in spirituality that you have faith in. Not everyone(myself included)can study all different lines in spirituality and moreover even those who manage to do that may not be any wiser. I dont believe disciples of Jesus, Nanak, Bhudha, or Kabir had any means to do extensive search or research in this field and they have fared OK by using faith and common sense.
Regards.

The Radha Soami (sound current) system is a very different system than the Tibetan Buddhist system. If you choose either one of these 2 systems and devote yourself to thier meditation method and if you have good Teachers you can make progress. Both have their organizational structure since both have huge number of followers.

Just a kind word to all of you…since when can an ant fully understand a man?…if you can explain and categorize “It”, then look somewhere else, for it cannot be the absolute…the Absolute spans out within many dimensions,with no definitive boundaries such as you percieve, most unknown to any of you, or me for that matter…as to a science? of the soul? of the physical universe? of your own self righteous fabrications of mind spurred on by ridiculous emotions? Arguing points both lame and mute, without even a grain of sand of understanding…ask yourselves questions such as these…do you know how your refrigerator runs? Do you comprehend the magnetic rotation of the earth? do you truly love? do you know the meaning of the word?…if you answered “yes”, you’ve done what all poets throughout the ages have never been able to understand or define…love,that is…in it’s depths is the mystery… in it’s absolute is its smallness and in it’s failure to offer up it’s treasure you all need look no farther than your pitious bantering of that which you all know nothing about…if you did, then you wouldn’t banter…It is not a matter of dispute…within the mysterious confines of the heart of everyman it lies either dormant or somewhat alive…you should stop berating others of which you know so little if anything, and start kindling the flame inside you. as it grows you will see …if nothing else, the folly of all this incessant bantering. you all sound like third graders discussing quantum physics, having glimpsed the book cover one time…one of you saw the blue cover…another saw the orange leaflets, another saw the graphics on the cover, and still another saw NOTHING AT ALL!!!!! Yet you speak so tiringly of the “exterior book”, never knowing what is in the pages…by the way, the imaginary book i am using for example purposes, has unlimited infinite pages…each one different…If you do not learn to seperate the differing perspectives of the cover, how can you adequately read the the content within the pages, and God forbid, what a controversy that would set off …one of you reading page 81 and accepting that as the “truth”, another of you see page 875 as the truth, and still another never got past the foreward, stopping there and seeing that as the ultimate!!! Imagine what a debate that would set off!!!!! In closing if you don’t understand how your refrigerator runs, i suggest you revamp your perspective of truth, as all of life runs off the same ptternistic realities and to a wise man well, electricity, in all its applications is mere child’s play, as is electro-magnetism as is the differing perspectives of the thought forms of you minds which all of you on the sight are somewhat unaware of, judging by your bantering….the present is but the many different configurations of the absolute spirit manifesting upon this lower potential of vibrational matter, of which we percieve of as material or physical.In it’s higher vibrational manifestation it would have a vibrational harmonic so to speak…at least i would assume, and remember always please, that god shines on the saint and the sinner alike…take time being joyous, not finding fault, and wasting the negative emotions on such a dismal undertaking as arguing about something that in the future you will see was just a tedious exercise in cutting off the thing you all have been discussing, the reality of love and of the spirit….Peace always…thank you

Bob, I can’t help but ask:
You urge others to stop discussing, stop criticizing, stop bantering, stop berating.
Reading your comment, it sure sounds like you’re discussing, criticizing, bantering, and berating.
So, what am I really being asked to do? In truth, not in words.

Bob— (1) would you consider hitting that ol’ return key on your keyboard twice every now and then (paragraphs, Bob, paragraphs).
(2) Also I am curious about “wasting the negative emotions”……?? So, are we to save them for something (or someone)special?
(3) Finding out how my refrigerator runs is pretty simple compared to finding out how RSSB is run.
(4) And if one truely loves?, I believe that is best appreciated through the feedback/response we get from life right now and right next to us, from all life that is close to us….dogs, cats, birds, kids, spouse, parents, teachers, coworkers, etc. They are our reality check.
We may think of ourself as quite the lover, but maybe few around us share our self-congratulatory opinion. Life around us— THAT feedback is smarter (for example)than our besotted crooning over a guru that lives half a world away. I have seen “lovers of the Lord” that croon well and have even claimed fantastic meditation-induced journeys, but (alas)they didn’t note, nor ask, how those around them felt about them. Maybe they were afraid to.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!

To Brian,
Dear Brother, so it is in your eyes that I myself am bantering criticizing and such..it is how you see it, because you do not adequately understand the causepoint of your perception, causing my reaction. It really is that simple…and although my first correspondence with Charan Singh dates back to 1980,& is why I have never sought initiation, nor will i be pulled into such pointless pursuit of such fruitless activities as i see on this website…..I feel you would grow much quicker and straighter if you stopped analyzing the pointed finger, arm and elbow that the zen masters tell you of and looked to what was being pointed to, you would do much better, and have ONE HELLUVA (oops! am I allowed to say helluva?)OK, whatever you want to make of it…let’s say Angelic good time. in any and with all due respects to wherever i see you folks all at in various degrees, let us not forget that the mozaic of life we see is in essence the outward manifestation of the architecture of our thoughts…as we journey into our more subtle aspects of our thoughts we cannot bypass the religious training we all have recieved as well as the taboos and graces we all ASSUME without great difficulty!!!!! and are programmed to think are in essence reality…to get past this point is one of the hardest things one can ever do, if ,as i have come to possibly accept, it is even possible to do without translation from this very plane via what man calls death…i myself think of it as graduation, but that is just me, and i will state it arises much more in me particularly, from my life and it’s many strange experiences of unbelieveable grace and luck, mixed with excruciating hard times, than anything remotely conducive to a fraternal society, which in essence led me to the correspondence with Charan Singh, not as an outgrowth of it.
Frankly, I have no reason to banter with any of you, nor will i waste my time…I understand where some of you are at, as i myself have been there myself…i personally moved on because, frankly, I couldn’t stand myself or the myopic place my attention regressed to by giving undue attention to that which is assuredly just a manifestation of the ego in all its idiocy.
Once you turn whatever key is in the lock waiting only for you to give a gentle turn, you yourself will have a good belly laugh, and the ego will diminish its hold on you, as you realize its strangulating influence upon your development…the thing I see, and its just my opinion—no money back guarantee–with all of this sight, is the overwhelming neccessity for all of you to be “right”…you see i don’t care if I’m right or wrong, I have nothing to defend and quite frankly no interest in defending it…does the sun, for instance need your consent to shine?…Do the squirrels and the birds ask your permission to gather nuts and take wing to the air? will the Lord God beg your consent to remove you from this sphere of activity?…In essence then, what is your need to be right?…a mere illusion…However, please do not misunderstand what i am merely trying to convey, and understand fully well that I refuse the spaghetti strands of your psychic emotional tentacles in instigating the challenge of bantering …OK, now I am berating, I am doing this or this…the challenge is seen and rebuffed by yours truly…NO…I wasn’t doing that. I was merely, expressing myself and offering a bit of insight that possibly if adequately contemplated upon might help free you and others like you who are trapped in the labyrinth of intellectual speculation of holy men, their deeds, the chicanery of the rogues, the virtue of the real and all other fabrications of the mind you are, quite honestly lost in…It’s OK by me though, as if you wish to stay there, keeping joy out of your life, to the extent you debate issues that really are impertinent,it’s certainly OK by me. however i fully understand that you must go through it…if only to eventually see the futility of the whole thing…we all must…and all in good time will we finally see the key in the lock just waiting for a gentle turn…believe me…will the joy be overwhelming…You will have belly laughs for days as you see the way the ego keeps you chained to yourself, and God knows the torture you have endured, the meticulous research, the hours of agonizing, the fears the ego run amuck making you an asshole bastion of self righteousness, and possibly alienating many dear loved ones and friends…yes I know that, because i have done just that myself…to my Chagrin!!…Sant Mat’s fault? or your fault? Or is it just the obvious effect of breaking up the fallow ground? One thing for sure, i will state as I (hopefully) have learned…(as i learn everything…the hard way…) it is not Sant Mat’s fault. Everyone seeks out a sage or guru for their own particular reasons, not a one having any idea what a guru or a sage in actuality is or might be…they are led to the Master of whatever yogic or spiritual system that they find a resonance with due to certain disatisfaction with life, pain that causes them to seek, or a weird amalgamation of things…all wrong, as if common sense serves me right, none of us ever sought out a guru to understand why it was that we were so gifted or divine that we could part the red sea or turn water into wine and merely wished to “check in with the other “man angels” on the planet for briefing….In any event, we first see the guru within the confines of our own muddied vision…which is of course not accurate…if we had clear vision, frankly as the guru would be the first to state, we don’t need him in the first place and of course we would probably have manifested an experience in a completely different place than Earth ( I’ve spent many a long hour trying to understand why i ever came to this planet in the first place! (Ha!)though i will be the first to say that “yes”, Earth does have it’s moments!…great moments in which we can experience love, joy and merriment, to go along with the usual decadence, horrors, cancers, death, gut wrenching sorrow and of course as we are all now living thru, needless war and strife…strange planet anyway one slices it…What i think i have found is that the essential way we see the guru being characteristically wrong, we somehow hang onto, until it becomes a nuisance, a point that causes us to lose sleep, a thing we will spend hours debating with ourselves and any other person who will listen until, we realize that all we are trying to do is justify an erroneous place on the path that we need to get over, so to speak…much like war, we will get over it only when we are fed up and sickened by it, and thus sense the futility of such endeavor…possibly, hopefully burning Karma in the process as well as seeing the limitations of our mind and intellect. Please keep in mind that by seeking any legit spiritual path that one is not buying into a fraternity that say, for instance, ol’ dad was a Sigma, Alpha epsilon, so therefore i will automatically achieve privilaged status, far and above the catholic, the bhuddist, or even the atheist.
Truth is truth, and i will say that i have seen it in the eyes of the atheist, the meat eating Christian,I have seen it in the eyes of the wealthy man, I have seen it in the eyes of the homeless beggar. I have seen truth shine from the eyes of a retard, I have seen nothing but darkness from the eyes of the privileged and i’ve been horrified by the deeds of the supposed enlightened gurus among us, as well as some of the morons who populate this planet…at least in my opinion, they are not, let’s say…my “cup of tea”…However, it is all a perspective and a point of course,so to speak. for instance, one must journey a ways into themself to realize that possibly their prime outward motivation for seeking out a guru, even if there is an underlying devotional persective at work, was to either be justified in their wrong thinking or wanting a bail out from their life and all the wrong or karmatically induced situations that led to the petitioning of a master in the first place.Much like one cannot wear their little league uniform to the high school prom and in succession, one can’t wear their high school prom outfit to a job interview at the age of 30 or thereafter,one must strip themselves of the outworn and used up tenets of their past to be fitted with their new clothes ( here of course meaning the hues of spirit), and of course, not clothes in the physical sense. The problem with all of us, as i see it, is somehow we want to simply enlarge our “little league uniform” and think it good enough, which it is for awhile, but eventually…it must go…as will our house of clay at the time of death, simply because we’ve outgrown it.In the heat of the death throes of whatever level of ego…here I am not a trained psychotherapist, nor guru, but one can easily see that the efforts to hold onto “that which must go” is all over this website in regards to “this person saying this and this person countering with that a nd Radha soami sucks or it’s the best thing that ever happened to me, or dogmatic ascertaitions regarding sex, diet or what this Saint said, or Kabir or some other mystic…Hey!…did you ever stop and think that was “right” for Kabir…you not being anywhere near his stature, is completely wrong for you?…Like maybe if you were on kabir’s level it would make sense…you being obviously a “Kabir in the Making?” you function from a whole different set of principles, rules, spiritual laws and such, and of course Kabir’s Karma was obviously different than yours to boot!!!…See what i mean? think deeper and you will start to function in a less dogmatically inclined state of mind, and a much more relaxed less confrontational state of being in regards to “truth” whatever that is to you, ultimately and cease to be the cookie cutter mass produced whirling dirvish of angst that i currently see on the website…hardly cutting you or it down, I see it merely as “spiritual activity which is breaking up preconcieved notions among all of you, which is always good, and far away from you perceptions you stated…no, I was not trying to berate or banter with anyone…if anything relate that to many of you, Joy is in the offing, once you can see the futility of your arguments…drop them as the useless play of the mind and ego…whenever each is ready and well, joy and I GUARANTEE THIS a hearty laughter will ensue as you go…as have I …”What a complete idiot have I been…this thing called the ego…”Why do you carry this little fiesty wolverine under your arm that makes you and everyone you encounter miserable? PITCH IT!..And thus prepare the way for joy and bliss…Joy and bliss are not the sole province of Sant Mat, but the free manifestations of the lord to all it’s creation…those that are humble and love.
I think that you will see after reading this, please read through the sight and postings. you will see few if any postings of love, good will, the relating of joyous life experience, but for the most part a retelling of something someone read in a book about this or that guru, his accomplishments (not the poster on the sight…important point to remember, someone’s disgruntledness at the dogma that has seized Sant Mat people, their dogma, their hypocricy etc. My reply to that is simply…where is the love? where is the joy? And is the pressure to conform or leave something that sant mat is engendering or is it something you brought with you from your earlier religious upbringing that you need to let go of????To me a very good question, and of course i hope when seen in that light, you will understand that bantering and berating was hardly the issue, only you saw it that way…In life we see from our levels, which are all different…In closing, dear friend…think back to the “can an ant really understand a man?…How much more implausible is it for us to understand the creative intelligence that set all this wonderful grandeur of creation in motion???? when one thinks long and hard on the matter isn’t that the quest for truth, not some Boyscout troupe who has the coolest Scoutmaster?…But for some folks, they need that, so God Bless you all and HAPPY NEW YEAR…may we all gain a bit of enlightenment during the course of 2007! and for those of us slated to depart, may we have a wonderful continued journey…Love to ALL OF US

Bob, thanks for the year end thoughts. Along with LB, I have a small bit of advice of my own for you:
paragraphs
They’re a wonderful literary device. They let the reader take a breath. Without them, you feel like you’re running a Word Marathon. Non-stop.

Dear Brian,
Thanks! Bob here…point well taken!!!!!!…so much for my perfection!!!(ha!)…The paragraph…wonderful literary innovation!!
You know how it is though, when you get off on a literary roll…also my spelling and use of capitalization is equally deplorable!!! Thanks! much love and the best of the New Year! may we all grow closer to the indefineable….What ever that is in actuality…can’t define it though…(just a joke)…but on a serious note, i do have some discourses for sale for those of you who do want to know how your refrigerator runs…I dunno, i found them in a gutter once upon a time, i don’t know if your refrigerator would like them. Perhaps it would simply run away…i also don’t know if the discourses actually would help you really understand how your refrigerator runs, they were written by this refrigerator repairman…At least that’s what he said he was …a guy by the name of Paul Twitchell…I don’t know, you might want to take the refrigerator in question, if it is having trouble running, or walking for that matter, to a qualified refrigerator repair shop…i dunno…i just have this feeling…HA!!! couldn’t resist…
(a joke)…Happy 2007!!!

To Bob,
Three things:
1. What exactly does your lengthy double-shot hodgepodge of rambling irrelevent puffed-up pseudo-spiritual bullshit have to do with this article’s topic of criticism of the RSSB? … Let me answer that for you: hardly more than nothing.
2. If you were never initiated nor involved with RSSB to any significant degree as you have indicated, then why do you so condescendingly presume that your phony intellectual rubbish heap of opinions and rambling nonsense holds any significance, relevance, or weight? You obviously don’t have a clue as to what you are babbling about.
3. It is glaringly and exceedingly obvious to those of us who do indeed have some fair degree of wisdom and spiritual maturity, that your rather lengthy but pathetic attempt to berate and ridicule the critical thinking, experience, insight, and spiritual realization of those of us who clearly understand far more about the subject than you do, that you are simply… “full of it”.
You are clearly way out of your league here. In light of that fact, I recommend that you go find something better to do than make such an utter fool of yourself.

Dear everybody…sorry i said anything…just voicing an opinion…I won’t make that mistake again…Peace and love…such anger…Byyyyyyeeeeeee

Bob, I hope you don’t let tao or anyone else’s negative reaction to what you said bother you. Stand by your saying. Yes, it was paragraph free. But that’s your style.
You’re you, not anyone else. As the unpastor of this unchurch, I don’t like it when commenters get unduly personal and critical. But I figure that we’re all (or mostly) adults here and can handle some rough give and take.
I sympathize with your inclination to “turn the other cheek” and flee this blog. However, consider whether this is the best thing to do. For yourself, for others.
I’m leaning toward writing a post about courage and independence today, stimulated by some Vivekananda reading. So standing firm is on my mind.

Brian,
My comment was my own opinion. But then apparently my effort to tactfully present my critical views about Bob’s rambling rant of ridiculous nonsense was somehow not to your liking, so let me put it much more concisely:
Bob’s attitude stinks and sucks. His smart-ass berating of the critical thinking of both yourself as well as all the other commenters, was rather pompous, arrogant, and clearly uninformed. And his booringly meaningless rant was at best, a big long load of BS.
But then just like Bob’s comments, that’s just my opinion.

PS:
If Bob wants to run away like a pouting child simply because I don’t buy his double-barreled blast of BS, then thats his choice.
On the other hand, if Bob wants to stand his ground and show something of substance to back-up his diatribes, then by all means I welcome and encourage him to do so.

Dear folks,
Bob here again. first off, I’d like to say that I was really not going to respond on this site ever again. Brian’s thing about standing firm changed my mind.
I’d like to say at the onset of this post, that I have never been so misunderstood in all my life, as when i read back through the posts, I really can’t see anything at all like what i have been accused of doing…to me it was kind of a thing to mediate somewhat to all of you, say “hi” and inject some humor, a bit of good-natured irreverence, and I believe if any of you read back over the post carefully, you will find that all the things you seemingly take offense at are wholly self inclusive…in other words, i include myself whole heartedly in all of my
how should I say?… “long winded pathetic BS” as was stated by some…’scuse me, I find it hardly true, kind or necessary and hardly the tenet of brotherly love, compassion or…even good reading skills!
Not to get into jousting with any of you at all but my intellectual skills compared to most , or so I test out on this planet are supposedly rather formidable, so we can leave it at that, but combined with what i do for a living– creative writing, music, and art,I really think the perception of the “long winded BS”, lies more with the inadequacies of the reader than the writer…of course that’s my opinion…as i have nothing to defend…maybe I’m wrong and I am the “pathetic ” creature that one of you made me out to be…who knows?…How kind for not even knowing me. Anyway, I’ve seen kinder pitt bulls…and here i do speak from experiential knowledge… I worked for the gas company once, and had to deal with them in people’s backyards.Fiesty little bastards!!! They too, seem to think that they have something to protect.
Also, some of it was ridiculous by intentional design…especially the part about the refrigerator running or walking…I thought it was funny…of course we all have different senses of humor….frankly if they are two things on this planet I really can’t stand and have no time for whatsoever, it is Dogma, wherever it shows it’s ugly myopic little head and people with no sense of humor…sorry just not my kind of thing.
Also, I really after reading through all the combative posts that are on this site…things like “take your Sant Mat dogma and peddle it to the faithful” or something akin to that…well, I found it rather abusive for one Sat Sangi, or ex-Sat Sangi to say to another, and in my experience(THOSE OF YOU READING THIS POST REALIZE PLEASE THAT I AM QUOTING ANOTHER POST…THE POINT OF ORIGIN OF THE AFOREMENTIONED QUOTE IS NOT THIS WRITER) From my experience in life and struggling like i have to understand many of the tenets of Sant Mat that i have taken in and absorbed AND PUT TO USE AND TRIED TO INCORPORATE into the life process,along with other things metaphysical, philosophical and pertaining to the arts, thereby integrating it, as we integrate our personalities within us for a balanced, healthy life, that I have found, at least to me, and a point I’m personally very happy about,is that i also, went through everything with a rather myopic looking glass and it made me very unhappy. When i realized, at least where i was at, and excuse me… If i am a Sat Sangi, A Christian, a Bhuddist or an Athiest, my expression, state of being,MY LIFE EXPERIENCE and well, “humanity” does count and is worthy of respect…However, judging from the feedback, I guess i was mistaken and quite naive, thinking that that sort of open-minded brotherly love would be a given from Sat Sangi’s…but as i was starting to say…when i realized it was all a rather illusionary egoistic position, i frankly grew from it, and could really laugh at myself and gain a new perspective, of which i was just trying to share with you…that’s all. Believe me, i respect each and everone’s religious or philosphical viewpoint…it is a given with me and has been since a youth!!!!!The same God created us all, only our perceptions as i see it vary, due mainly to our different levels of consciousness or becoming. At least it works for me, and how I understood Dr. Johnson’s books, the Path by Charan, and other books i have read, that pretty much is at the heart of the teachings. If it wasn’t I’d have never journeyed onto your site, nor taken the rather pronounced effort and labors to research and gain understanding. in fact the whole series of events leading up to my initial correspondence with Charan Singh, are admittedly strange, and in many ways i credit Charan with quite possibly saving my life…strange story…and also two subsequent correspondences with Gurinder Dhillon have caused me to “resist as long as is possible,” and question and research and question and research…which i have done.I will say most pointedly that the reactions seem to cause me to wonder why i ever did, but i at least, have learned much from this exchange. For one, Tao your language is actually quite juvenile…you will see none of it in my ‘pathetic long winded BS” i had strived for a higher plane of “expressive language”…just a hint, i think you should also strive to a somewhat similar end…If language like that is a staple of your daily discourse, it is little wonder why you didn’t understand or coherently comprehend ????what i was just trying to say….Really…stinks and sucks?? smart-ass???? surely if more proper words are not part of your rhetorical regime, you could invest in a Webster’s or a Thesaurus and keep it handy with you at all times….Eventually you might learn more proper words, which don’t reflect so poorly on your maturity quotient.Anyway, why go to the level of a cut-down contest??? Such fare is the province of asses, and i refuse! Thank you all…indeed i have learned much.
Happy New Year, once again
Or at least may it be happier than it seemingly is at present for you all.
Thank you once again Brian for inviting me to respond.Peace and harmony to you all

What we have here, is another ultra long thread! I wonder, “How many feet, in length, is this one?”
Surely, within this thread, there is an Action-Reaction study, going on. The intellectual sparring, I find educational.
It is interesting that some Posts, rather profound ones, have no comments and others just go on and on………..

Dear Brian,
If the All is One, it certainly does seem to be rather viciously divided against itself.
Robert Paul Howard

“full of it” was really an understatement…
…and there will be no coming up to Churchless speed until “it” is fully unloaded.

DEAR ALL, Please please remember that not all followers of the R S Faith are sincere and trustworthy as I have come across two fradulent Radha Soami Shevadars collecting money from me in Lacs claiming that Satguru will help me and that since they are Gurus ardent followers AND sevadars in BHAYANDER AREA one should fully trust them. GOD….I WAS DUPED BY TWO SUCH EVIL SEVADARS: In Mumbai: Their Names Are: Mr. Naresh Punjabi and One Mr. Ravi Jeswani. FRIENDS SATSANGIS BEWARE AS THESE 2 PEOPLE ARE CRIMINAL FRAUDS. Someone please initiate to inform the Head of SEVADARS AT RSSB and eliminate their duties performed in the name of our dear Satguru. RB.

To all initiates of Sant Mat-please practice what you promised to practice-thats the real cure for all things of mind,mouth,body.
I have through falling and stumbling to the light and Charan Singh and Baba Ji has rewarded me with peace of mind-no one can take that away- except me-when I engage in anger and defensive,offensive virulent emails and excessive mind behaviour -all this intellectual hoohaa takes us nowhere Meditate daily do simran do bhajan read books support each other.Go in and be happy. To’faa soi’fua alofa-Radha Soami Ji -Fu’e Fu’e

Fu’e Fu’e,
Your rather ridiculous comment reveals a serious lack of understanding. Sant mat is the same BS just like all the other spiritual and mystic nonsense. There is and was, no “promise to practice”, and there is no such “cure” needed for the mind or the body.
If you actually had the “light” and the “peace of mind” that you claim to have derived from these bogus gurus that you mention, then it would not be lessened by your admitted “anger and defensive,offensive … mind behaviour”.
The only “intellectual hoohaa” is your own preaching of Sant mat. And its you who are the one who is going “nowhere”.
Meditation is merely another strategy of the spiritual search. Simran is merely useless mental gynastics and a form of mental illness. Bhajan is also useless mental gynastics. Books are nothing but words and ideas. There is no happiness to be derived from inwardness.
Sant mat is a waste of time and life. Its nothing but another form of antiquated spiritual dogma and mystical bullshit.

Hi All
What harm is there to following the teachings of Sant Mat, following the principles can only soften one’s heart and create good will amongst man. I have been trying to follow the teachings for the past 20 years and it really is a better way to live. Even if there is no salvation, it is still nicer way to live.
If anyone knows of path that might lead us home please let me know until then I think I will just stick to the path prescribed by the masters.
Hanging onto a straw is better than hanging onto nothing.

John,
I enjoy traveling to the various National Parks. I love the mountains and outdoors. This activity brings a softness to my heart and goodwill to others. I have been traveling for more than 30 years. Try it, you might like it.
Roger

John,
You wrote:
“What harm is there to following the teachings of Sant Mat”
There is much harm in following teachings that do nothing more than waste a great deal of ones time, attention, and life so needlessly. There is also great harm in following fraudulent so-called “masters” that present themselves as being something that they are not, and who falsely deceive naive and gullible seekers into believing that they can and will lead them to the transcendent spiritual realm and liberation.
“following the principles can only soften one’s heart and create good will amongst man.”
That may be your opinion, but thats all it is. The reality of this is that, by and large, the great percentage of satsangis that I have observed do not exibit soft hearts nor good-will outside of their cult. And even within their cult they are not very congenial folks towards other satsangis. In my 30 years of obervation, Sant mat does not cultivate good-heartedness nor good-will in its followers and practioners. And there are many examples and instances and proofs of this that have been discussed at length previously, both here and in other forums. Sant mat is a very inward and life-negative and dogmatic path. It does not cultivate loving kindness or broad-mindedness amongst its adherents and practitioners.
“I have been trying to follow the teachings for the past 20 years and it really is a better way to live.”
Thats only your opinion. What is that conclusion based upon? What is “better”? Sant mat is no better than anything else. Meditation and vegetarianism is certainly not limited only to Sant mat. And in fact, Sant mat’s negative attitude towards life in general, and its blind adherence to contrived dualistic dogma and the worshipping of false gurus, is hardly a “better way to live”.
“Even if there is no salvation, it is still nicer way to live.”
Thats a rather absurd mentality to have. Just waste your time even if it leads ou nowhere, huh? Truth is, its not a “nicer’ way to live, nor is there any “salvation” to be had from it. Its a path to nowhere. Give me one good example of someone who has been actually liberated/enlightened because of following Sant mat. You cannot, because there are none.
“If anyone knows of path that might lead us home please let me know”
The path is in yourself, and IS yourself. You… are the path. Actually, there really is no “path”. That is all an illusion. The “path” is just part of the illusion of the search.
“I think I will just stick to the path prescribed by the masters.”
There are no “masters”. Thats all spiritual propaganda and foolishness. Its nothing more than the romaticising of the esoteric. These so-called “masters” that you speak of were nothing but ordinary people playing the role of guru. They are not masters, and to follow them is to wallow in ignorance. Sant mat (all branches) is merely a quasi-religious cult, which traps seekers into believing that it and its leaders will give them salvation and immortality.
“Hanging onto a straw is better than hanging onto nothing.”
The trouble is… you are not hanging on to anything. You have been mislead and deceived, and you are not yet awake to reality. As long as you continue to hold on to false doctrines and bogus “masters”, you will not know reality as it is. Your vison is skewed and distorted by these beliefs that you have bought into.

greetings,
one should have faith in his master.I know it would be difficult to understand for all those who don’t follow this path.I follow it, as i have full faith in my master.He is the one who guides me.i am not initiated yet, still i trust him.

The above comment contained a number of Words of interest. Each word has its own discussion. The words of interest, I found are:
faith
follow
guides
initiated
trust

Ms Batia,
You are probably one of these typical one time only ‘hit-and-run’ type commenters, but if perchance you do happen to return to this site and read this, here are my comments:
One should really only have “faith” in ones own self. As it was said: “To thine own self be true”
The so-called “master” is but one’s own true Will, not any other outside separate individual.
Sant Mat (if that is what you are referring to) is not difficult to understand at all, and there are many people who are deeply familiar with it, yet don’t follow it anymore.
You say: “I have full faith in my master”. Yet you also say: “i am not initiated yet”.
However, if you are not yet initiated, then according to Sant Mat, technically you have no “master” yet.
Which leads me to wonder why you would bother to come to this site and claim “i have full faith in my master”? If you do have faith, then why you you feel such a need to assert it to others?
You say: “…still i trust him”. What exactly are your trusting in? All you have is an idea in your mind of another person. How is it that you are trusting, and for what reason do you feel a need to trust someone that you do not know personally?
If find the mindset and ‘blind faith’ of people like yourself to be rather odd. To be quite hnonest, I find it to be rather unintelligent and lacking in self-esteem and self-confidence.
Hopefully my comments will make you think about these things and become more self-empowered, rather than being influenced and persuaded by other peoples cult dogma into blindly following false savior (“master”) figures.

“Nick wrote: For me, one of the great benefits of the RSSB policy in recent years is the establishment of Satsang and Seva centers around the world. These centers undoubtedly function as much needed island ashrams within the current madness of consumerism that we live in….Here adults and children can work and play together in a safe and secure environment. You can talk about god and spirituality without seeming a weirdo………………”
I strongly disagree with you Nick. I think the whole purpose of these so called Ashrams is conditioning of young minds with RSSB’s beliefs. Have you ever gone to the child centers in these Ashrams and talked to the bored young Moms who are locked inside a big room with hundreds of screaming kids and waiting for the clock to show 5’o clock or 3o’clock (depending on their other halves Sewa schedule or how much time it takes them to travel to these ashrams).
I have been part of this whole drama. I know a lot of depressed ladies (especially moms) out there who works for 5 days a week to help out their husbands in building their dreams and sulk inside the child centers on weekends. Sometimes their only dream is to send a nice and lazy weekend with their spouse and kids at home (and not the rushing madness of consumerism.) I am sorry I can only talk on behalf of these ladies as I have wasted my hundreds of beautiful weekends at one such ashram in US among them. I was labeled as a ‘seeker’ as I am not RSSB initiate. It was as if a junior title in a company.
Believe me every time I talked about God and spirituality at these Ashrams, I was treated as a weirdo cause I used to talk about God and not Guru; cause I used to talk about humanity and not about satsangi-ness; cause I used to talk about balance in life and not about conditional beliefs of RSSBs.

Dear All Readers, Some of you have no faith in Radha Soami Guru. But i would like to say ,Normal Human being never recognize the complete sants. Radha Soami Gurus are complete sants. Complete sants means “Guru is GOD or GOD is Guru”. Anyone who has love with GOD can recognize the GURU. The Radha Soami Guru never told people to worship them, they have come in the world with GOD message and told everyone to worship GOD.

Parveen,
Thanks for calling us Normal people. I really appreciate that. You are absolutely right, only delusional people can say that “Radha Soami Gurus are complete saints”. One of my close relative is one such person and he is on serious medication for such delusions. Radhasoami path has destroyed his carrier, family, integrity and most important of all human-ness, as he believe that only rssb initiates are chosen one and rest all are normal people who he doesn’t have anything to do with.
By the way Do you know what does loving God means? Does it mean hating everybody who is not on your path or treating them as untouchables.
How can you say that RadhaSoami gurus never told people to worship them? Why physical darshan of Guru is so important? why do all the satsangi people have big sized pictures of all the gurus at home. (or why do Dera release such official pictures). They might have changed the ways of worship but practice is still the same.

Parveen,
I can’t really improve much on what Sapient has already said to you, but I’ll try.
You stated: “Radha Soami Gurus are complete sants.”
That statement is about as lame as it ever gets. You don’t know that, you cannot possibly ever prove it, and its nothing but empty meaningless words. And you are one of the dumbest commenters ever to post in this forum.
Moving on… Yes, the “Guru is GOD or GOD is Guru”, but that is also just as true of everyone and everything, not just RS supposed gurus. But then you could not “recognize” a real guru if your life depended upon it, nor does it appear that you have any comprehension of the real nature of love either.
It is a fact that your Radha Soami so-called gurus or “sants” have indeed encouraged people to worship them in a variety of ways, and also they have not told anyone to worship GOD.
Their so-called “GOD message” is merely one that has been handed down to them, which they then parrot and perpetuate.
And here are a few examples of how they get people to worhip them: They encourage followers to worhip them by holding so-called “darshans” where people come to pay homage to them and grovel for a breif glance; by telling followers to meditate on their physical image or form; and by pretending to be divinely chosen and spiritually empowered embodiments of the divinity, of the Godhead…. which by the way, is all outrageously fraudulent rubbish.
They also encourage others to do work (seva) for them without any sort of pay, and to donate money seva to their cult organization coffers as well.
Sadly, you are quite evidentally one of those who has had the peculiar misfortune of becoming suckered, deluded, brain-washed, and trapped in the Santmat/RS guru-cult.
You have not even the faintest clue as to what’s up with the RS cult and its “master/sant” myth, or what is reality.
And the really sad thing is that you are not even interested in understanding. I actually feel kind of sorry for pathetic people like you. I do hope you wake up someday before you waste your entire life.

Dear Tao,
I am not surprised after reading your comment that you have told Radha soami Gurus are fake. They just make people fool.Whatever i have already written “Radha soami Gurus are compete Guru” is based on my practical experiance.
littlebit I have read Bible,Kuransareef and Gurugranth Sahib. These all religious granth were written by the Complete saints. These all religious granth belongs to different religions but they gives us the similar message. If we read these three with open mind and open heart, nothing is different between them. All these three tell you about “Word”, “shabad”,”Naam” and “GOD”. Now if you think about the message of Cries, Ten Gurus of Sikh, Mohammand Sahib, saint Kabir etc , they had the similar message as Radha Soami Guru gives today.
When Cries were in this world, Nobody accepted him as Guru. and We people hanged him.Similar with Ten Guru of Sikh, we have created so many problems for them when they were in this world. Why the people worship them today if they are not present in this world.
Regarding seva. you are unable not understand What is seva. Why people gives money or does the labour work. If you will do.You will be able to understand.
Sorry man you have very less knowledge of santmant. I feel sorry for people like you who don’t want to recognize GOD.It is managent rule ” No organization without Leader”. This universe is also a organization who also has a leader in the form of GOD. So saint gives us the way to meet GOD .
Last thing if you or anyone have some alternate to meet GOD please share knowledge.

“…Life is but a dream, sweetheart….”
Robert Paul Howard

Parveen,
Your wrote: “Radha soami Gurus are fake.” — Yes, that is ncorrect, they are fake.
“They just make people fool.” — Yes, some naieve and unknowing people are indeed fooled by them… but not myself, and not everyone is fooled by them.
“i have already written “Radha soami Gurus are compete Guru” is based on my practical experiance.” — Your so-called “experience” is subjective and is merely and only your own personal opinion.
“I have read Bible,Kuransareef and Gurugranth Sahib. These all religious granth were written by the Complete saints.” — Again, that is merely your own idea, your own opinion, your own belief… and nothing more. It does not prove and establish any fact.
“These all religious granth belongs to different religions but they gives us the similar message.” — So what?
“If we read these three with open mind and open heart, nothing is different between them.” — The reading of books does not prove or establish the truth of anything.
“All these three tell you about “Word”, “shabad”,”Naam” and “GOD”.” — They only present mere words and ideas and beliefs. Mere words and ideas do not make or equal truth.
“if you think about the message of Cries, Ten Gurus of Sikh, Mohammand Sahib, saint Kabir etc , they had the similar message as Radha Soami Guru gives today.” — So what? Who cares what their “message” was. It actually doesn’t amount to anything.
“When Cries were in this world, Nobody accepted him as Guru. and We people hanged him.” — I don’t know who you are talking about, and also I did not “hang” anyone… so don’t say “We”. Speak only for yourself. You don’t speak for others, so don’t try to.
“Similar with Ten Guru of Sikh, we have created so many problems for them when they were in this world. Why the people worship them today if they are not present in this world.” — Because in general, many people are stupid and ignorant when it comes to such things, and they follow whatever they are told or influenced by.
“Regarding seva. you are unable not understand What is seva.” — Sorry, but you you just don’t what the hell you are talking about. It is actually the ignorant fools like you who do not understand what “seva” is.
“Why people gives money or does the labour work.” (?) — Again, because they are blind and ignorant about spirituality, and because they are influenced and brain-washed into false beliefs…. Just like you are.
“If you will do.You will be able to understand.” — I already “understand”. I don’t have to DO anything to understand. I have already understood perfectly for at least 40 years. That’s probably longer than you have been alive. And so you don’t know diddly squat about what I “understand”, and moreover, you are a fool to presume that you do.
“Sorry man you have very less knowledge of santmant.”
The fact of the matter is that I know vastly more about all aspects of Sant mat. And you clearly know and understand very little. You are just another ignorant cult believer.
“I feel sorry for people like you who don’t want to recognize GOD.”
To hell with “GOD”. “GOD” is just another idea that you have, and that others like you have and foist upon the world…. as if those who do not follow your stupid beliefs arfes somehow inferior. I know your kind… and people like you really SUCK big time.
“It is managent rule ” No organization without Leader”. This universe is also a organization who also has a leader in the form of GOD.”
That is utter disgusting HORSESHIT. That notion is nothing more than authoritarianism , hieracchy, and petty tyranny. It is BOGUS through and through. That idea and kind of mentality is a real mental disease, a plague that has casts its dark shadow upon mankind for thousands of years. It is garbge and people like you who preach it are stupid ignorant morons.
“So saint gives us the way to meet GOD.” — There are no “saints” and there is no “GOD” to “meet”. God is totality which includes everyone and everything…. not some ridiculous divine dictator up in sach khand. People like you are as spiritually dumb and immature as they come. If you would just wake up and cut out the absurdly lame religious crap, then you might possibly grow and develop real spiritual understanding…. but you won’t the way you are presently going.
“…if you or anyone have some alternate to meet GOD please share knowledge.”
Forget about “GOD”, and forget about gurus…. Just be yourself and just live your own unique life. THAT is what God wants for YOU, and that is what the real God is already doing in and through and as you. You don’t have to find “GOD”, for God is everywhere and is everyone, at all times. GOD is living as YOU. God is being everyone simultaneously. So just be the unique manifestation of God that you already are. There is nothing for you to do, or to believe, and nowhere else to go spiritually. Don’t try to guess what God wants. Just simply accept the WILL of God as it is now and always manifesting as your own unique life, and as the lives of all other beings. God is being everyone, manifesting as each individual, all the time. There is nothing for you to do but to live your life whoich is the life that god is living through you, as God is intending.
All of THIS… right here and right now… is IT.
So don’t talk of “GOD”. There is no need to talk of “GOD”…. Just simply carry on and live the unique life that God is living and manifesting as YOU.
Spiritual guru cults is nothing but business. These spiritual beliefs, authoritarian dogmas, and guru cults actually have nothing whatsoever to do with the Truth or with the Real God, the Absolute, the Totality, the TAO.

u r d bigest loser

The TAO-Total Asshole Online!

Vijay, Oat..
OK. So Tao has offended you. Big deal. Get over it. Can you come up with intelligent counter arguments to his remarks? If you can’t, perhaps you need to admit he’s right.

Tao,
I apologize for the name calling.
-Oatmeal

Vijay
I strive to lose all my illusions in a big way. It is my sincerest wish for you too.

radha soami guru sampooran guru hain. Jo lok guru baare galat bolde hun eh ohna da kasoor nahin eh tan ohna di budhi da kasoor hai.Jo kehnda hai ke kisi ko 30 saal baad bhi bhajan karn te roshni nahi dikhayi dindi ta eh ohna da kasoor hai kyonke je parmatma nu milan vaste bhakti kiti jave ta parmatma jaroor milega.Par je sirf najaare dekhan lai kita jave ta fer rab nahin milda. lakhan lok beas jande hun kyon? Islai kyonke ohna nu shanti mildi hai je ik bhi ander na gaya hove ta ehne lok beas na jaan. RADHA SOAMI

RADHA SOAMI
RSSB gurus are complete gurus because i myself have met several people who have seen inner lights.

gagn… you are pathetic and lame-brained. how unfortunate.

im a radha swami nd i have had my naam nd i love my baba ji

To the last commenter who is too cowardly to use even a pseudonym:
Yes, I can clearly see that you are indeed a Radha Soami dim-wit who cannot spell english properly, who is full of cult dogma crap, and who loves some ridiculous fraud cult guru, who actually is the farthest thing from being a genuine “baba”. But then it’s only lame-brain morons like you who are attracted to fake spiritual leaders like him… and vice versa. So you both got what you deserve…. nada.

RADA SOAMI JI.

To gurucharn singji:
To you I say: Take your insipid “RADA SOAMI JI”, and shove it right back up your ass where it came from.
Is that clear enough for your spiritually and intellectually compromised pea-brain to comprehend?

just remember people have always spoken ill about all the saints….this is very sad and shameful that poeple like us didnt recogonised true masters when they were among us.
if you say to a frog who lives in a well that the ocean is soo vast and huge ,he will laugh at you bcoz to him the well is no less than the ocean.similarly people have limited capacity to understand the true serect of naam
radha soami greeting to all

Kam Ji,
How do you know that you are not the frog in the well? May be you are stuck with your dogmas and beliefs and can’t see the ocean of a non dogmatic life outside the well.

A scientific and religious “Church of the Churchless” online survey:
-Do you feel you are helping yourself and others by blogging online? (0-100%)
-Do you feel addicted to blogging online? (0-100%)
-Has your life become more manageable because of blogging? (0-100%)
-Has your life become more unmanageable because of blogging? (0-100%)
-Does blogging make you feel joyful and happy? (0-100%)
-Does blogging make you feel unhappy and miserable? (0-100%)
-Does blogging give you peace? (0-100%)
-Does blogging make you miserable? (0-100%)
Thank you for your participation.

Kam,
The funny thing is this: You are the one who is the frog down in the well.
It is obvious to others of us who are not stuck down in the well of Radha Soami dogma, that people like you cannot see beyond the confines of the artificial beliefs that you have acquired, and that you subscribe to.
You said: “…people have always spoken ill about all the saints…”
What saints? Who says someone was a “saint”? And how would you know? Are you an expert on “saints”? I don’t think so. You sound like a brain-washed parrot to me.
You also said: “…this is very sad and shameful that poeple like us didnt recogonised true masters…”
“People like us”, you say? Hold on there. You don’t speak for others. And you don’t speak for me. And you don’t know what anyone may or may not “recognize”. Sounds like you are just full of blind, unexamined assumptions. And then there’s that “true masters” thing popping up again. “Masters” you say? … I say that your talk of “masters” is bullshit. It’s just your way of implying that people who don’t buy into your stupid Radha Soami dogma, are somehow inferior… or “sad and shameful” as you put it.
It’s people like you who are the “sad” ones, and that… is a real shame. In other words, you really suck.
So now be a good little slave and go run run back and suck on your “master” some more. I am sure he’ll be happy to accomodate you…. especially if you’ve got the bucks… or the rupees.

Brian,
It has sometimes occured to me that I guess perhaps I shouldn’t use that old “bullshit” word. I suppose that it probably offends some of the more sensitive folks who visit here. It’s just that I tend to write my comments as if I was actually talking to someone live and in person. And I generally don’t like to tippy-toe around either. I guess you know that by now. In any case, do feel free to edit or delete any of my comments that are not quite PC enough.
Now on to the main thing I wanted to mention:
I have noticed many times how this particular article of yours, namely the “More criticism of Radha Soami Satsang Beas”, has gotten such a very long trail of comments. You seem to have got more mileage out of it than any other essay you’ve written. It seems to be the one post that keeps on endlessly producing comments. That’s rather funny. I always chuckle every time I see another “More criticism of Radha Soami Satsang Beas” comment pop up on the Recent Comments list. Funny how they just keep on trickling in every now and then.

I am shocked at most of the comments on this forum.
Any teachings that teach kindness, forgiveness, support , love, sharing, truth, care in any form are doing good to the world. It is people like us who have degressed from basic beliefs who have actually no religion and are mere selfish individuals
We must fold our hands and be grateful to every person spreading kindness, faithful, forgiveness, support , love, sharing, truth. Just think how much time do you spend preaching this or even following this and you will realise who are assets to society and who are the liabilities and the root cause for selfishness, crime, torture, politics, unfailthfulness, cheats

Tao, yes, I find it interesting also that this is a post that keeps on posting. Regarding your (and others’) language, I tend to be earthy in my speech when talking face to face also.
I just had a conversation with a friend/landscaper/Garden Poet in which I said “fucking,” “bullshit,” and such numerous times. It just fit with the subject matter.
It’s no problem with me when people express themselves obscenely creatively, so long as it flows naturally (as in conversation) and isn’t only intended to hurt someone else.
George, I appreciate your sentiments. But in line with my previous comments about strong language, there’s a place for warm and fuzzy and there’s a place for cold and hard. It depends on the situation.
Many religious people talk the morality talk without walking the walk. Other non-religious people just act morally without making a big deal of it.
Research has shown no connection between religiosity and morality. None. There are good people on both sides of the secular aisle. I don’t consider that pointing out the downsides of religion takes away from the upsides.
Those — the upsides — aren’t due to religion itself, though. People join together in communities and enjoy a spirit of fellowship, mutual aid, and giving all the time without this being under the banner of religion.
So there’s good reason to criticize the negative aspects of religion and to point out that everything good about religiosity can be had without the dogma and divisiveness.
Join a Rotary Club. Or Habitat for Humanity. Or whatever. You don’t find people going to war over which Rotary Club possesses the truth.

George,
I guess maybe you need or seserve to be “shocked”.
Fyi, I for one don’t want or need any such “beliefs” or “religion”. And I have not “degressed” either. So as I said to another recently, speak only for yourself, not for others. You are just another typical so-and-so going around telling others how they should live. You are the one who is preaching. And your preaching is not needed… You yourself should just shut-up and practice whatever you would preach to others about. And no one “must” fold their hands either, or do any such thing.

Tao,
Tao said “You yourself should just shut-up”.
So why don’t you shut the f*** up Tao. You should practise this first before preaching George.
Also, shove all your comments on the blog right back up your big, filthy and dirty ass before preaching this to gurucharn singji.

Find the these Internet chats incomplete because one can’t see faces or hear intonations. People write a response and posted it, but they can’t see the faces of the other posters, how their post affected them. Maybe (just maybe) we might feel bad if we knew we had hurt somebody’s feelings?
Maybe we form some image of the person that we are responding to that is wrong, or way off the mark. Maybe we imagine a Catholic nun holding a ruler, or some red-faced and grim preacher when, in fact, it might be a 80 year old woman who is crippled with arthritis and is just passing by to share her thoughts because the only company she has is her dog and her kids never come to visit her.
IMO, we might do worse than to err on the side of compassion and generosity.

Paul,
First, go tell yourself to shut-up you stupid fool. This is a place where people express their opinions. I was expressing mine. Go somewhere else if you don’t like that. Fyi, I did not preach to George. I don’t preach religion or spirituality, but I do tend to criticise those who do. Go back and read my comment to George. George was the one who was preaching, not I. If someone like George is going to get preachy, then I am probably going to tell him to shut-up. I am not fond of spiritual or moralistic preaching, no matter how nice and positive it may sound. I believe in practicing instead of preaching.
Second, I also did not “preach” to gurucharan singj. He said “RADA SOAMI JI”, and so I told his to shove it. You gotta problem with that? You think that it’s taboo to criticise “RADA SOAMI JI”? As if that is some kind of sacred cow? … If thats what you think, then you can “shove-it” too.
Grow-up you immature little twerp.

My unholy goodness! … July 18, 2005 was indeed a very very fertile day for the ole un-Pastor and his infamous “Church of the Churchless”.
And remember, our tireless un-Pastor is the only one who’s gonna be allowed to do any preachin around these here parts.
Signed: Doctor Tao

So grow up Tao now and start to practise. By the way what do you practice?
You say “I am not fond of spiritual or moralistic preaching, no matter how nice and positive it may sound. I believe in practicing instead of preaching.”
From you statement above it seems you only practice slandering and/or criticism of nice, positive and spiritual or moralistic preaching.
Every year you are getting older by an year, Tao and I just fail to understand the negativity that you are filled with to an extent that you say:
“I am not fond of spiritual or moralistic preaching, no matter how nice and positive it may sound.”
So my question to you my dear friend is how and what can you even practise?
Isn’t high time for you to grow up and mature into positivity?! Grow up Tao, grow up.

To all,
I note that on June 28, 2007, Brian wrote: “So here’s an offer (it’s always been open, but not stated explicitly): if you’ve got something churchless to say, write it up and email me.” I presume his offer still stands.
Robert Paul Howard

Paul,
You just don’t get it do you? I don’t have anything to “practice”, because unlike some others who visit this forum, I don’t preach.
You said: “So….start to practice.” -and- “By the way what do you practice?”
What do you mean? Practice what? I don’t practice anything.
You said: “…it seems you only practice slandering and/or criticism of nice, positive and spiritual or moralistic preaching.”
I don’t “practice slandering”, but you are correct in that I most certainly do criticise what you call “nice, positive and spiritual or moralistic preaching”. I think spititual and moralistic preaching really sucks.
You said: “I just fail to understand the negativity”.
For me to say “I am not fond of spiritual or moralistic preaching, no matter how nice and positive it may sound”, is hardly “negativity”. Sorry that my honesty doesn’t appeal to your over-sensitivity and the immature dreamworld that you inhabit.
You said: “So my question to you … is how and what can you even practise?
As I said, I don’t “practice” anything. Life is in the living.
You said: “Isn’t high time for you to grow … into positivity?”
I am neither positive nor negative. And I cedrtainly don’t buy any of your artifically contrived notions of “positivity”. You are dreaming dude. Wake-up and realize that other people just don’t have to conform to your petty personal expectations and/or values. I pointed out that it is indeed rather “immature” of you to think so. But apparently all you are capable of doing is nothing more than a pathetically futile attempt at projecting your immaturity back upon me.
And so therfore you aren’t even worth discussing this issue with any further.

I just could not stop laughing reading Tao’s immature reaction. You show little smoke to the gunpowder and the gunpowder explodes!
Tao, if life is in the living then live it and as you say, “people just don’t have to conform values.” In that case people should be slanderers, rapists, murderers, alcoholics and drug-addicts, I suppose.
Good thinking, Tao, good thinking, keep it up and keep living life, but remember one day you have to pay the price – whatever you sow, so shall you reap!
Readers of this churchless blog, wait for another explosion from Tao.

Paul,
Sadly, you are just not nearly as smart as you try to appear. In fact, you are so transparent that it’s quite obvious how mentally conditioned and downright stupid you are about the issues that are presented and discussed here.
Your agenda on this blog is more or less that of a troll. You come here and whine about criticism and disrespect, but yet you actually show no respect for those whose views differ from yours. You whine and object to criticism of the Santmat/RS cult and its gurus or so-called “masters” and about other spiritual persuasions and religious dogma, and yet you yourself criticise (without substance) the critics, and even the author of this blog.
It is so obvious that you are nothing more than a typical sycophant in denial who runs around defending absurd religious and spiritual cult dogma by calling it “virtue”. You just cannot tolerate that anyone would reveal the nonsense and absurdity of your sacred cows. You belong back with your master, sangat, cult, or temple…. because your comments here are only revealing what a pathetic fool you really are.

There goes the old troll and the pathetic fool, Tao again! Laughs…

Paul, you just proved my point about you perfectly. Apparently you are so bereft of any substance that all you can come up with is to mimic or repeat various terms (such as “troll”, “pathetic”, “fool”, etc) that I have used to describe you… just like a parrot. I need not say anymore.

Tao, and you just proved another pint to me that you are just a puppet of the “Church of Churchless” cult whose Guru is Brian Hines and like a parrot you keep singing and repeating words in support whatever he writes on this blog. Like blind-faithed to this churchless cult you come in here with your comments to tell people to “put-up or shut-up” – You need to practise this. You seem to me without brains of your own. You just keep supporting your guru or master Brain “blindly like a parrot.” Grow up and use your brains!!

Paul,
I am certainly not “a puppet” of anyone, and if you had any awareness at all, you would already know that I despise cults.
I also very rarely show any “support” for what Brian writes, and for you to portray him as any kind of “Guru”, shows what an absolute idiot you are.
This site is simply Brian’s blog with a comment forum. It’s definitely not a cult, and I see no commenter here who regards Brian as a guru… certainly not myself. However, you have shown what a shallow and disingenuous ass YOU are for saying so.
It is so obvious that you are in a spiritual dreamland, and also in denial and unable to think for yourself. Your comments here reveal you to be nothing but a typically weak-minded troll who has knee-jerk reactions to any sort of criticisms that are leveled towards you and your ridiculous spiritual myths and sacred cows.
Your repeated mimicing only shows just how shallow and immature you really are.

RADHA SOAMI TO All

DEAR GURCHARAN SINGH
RADHA SOAMI
We all love BABA JI and his beloved sangat

RADHA SOAMI TO ALL WHO LOVE AND CRITICIZE BABA JI
RADHA SOAMI TO U BRIAN TAO

to much hate in this forum. RSSB made my atheist grandpa into a believer and helped him to quit drinking the first time he saw em, and also helped my great uncle get off the booze. Granddad has been a follower for near 27yrs. He didn’t believe they could help and only went coz Nan heard a lot about them, and dragged him and great uncle a long. Charan Singh who was head at the time, gave my grand dad a prayer and it helped him a lot. Im not a RSSB follower, My Fam is mixed of Dharma Sects and faith, From Sikhism To Arya Samaj to Shiva worshipers. So if people claim RSSB doesn’t work for them thats cool there is many religions/beliefs out their to cater to your own, thats the beauty. As for RSSB my granddad loves em coz its simple – Meditation, and repeating prayers/Nam, no ritualistic dogmatic stuff, live a clean healthy life, no castes, no idol worship or even going temple to worship and most important My grand dad does not care for much in philosophy like dualism or non-dualism, karma effect, or cosmology like other Hindu schools teach or Buddhist or Jainism teach. He is a simple man who has found a faith that teaches the simple ways of attaining joy and God-realization. And to me, if his happy finding it, then awesome. The Guru’s Of sikhism were very Simple in teachings, they taught morals and devotional love for God with chanting Sat Nam, Waheguru and so forth. And the basic ethical foundations.
Everything is a Perception, what does not work for you, will work for someone else…
Simple.
P.s I follow more Buddha’s philosophy with a touch of Dualistic belief… in case ppl think im a RSSB follower.

Arya,
Actually there is a lot of “ritualistic dogmatic stuff” in Sant Mat:
-2.5 hrs meditation every day.
-Simran throughout the day whenever possible.
-not one beer, not one glass of wine, one puff of a joint, ever.
-strict veg diet. no compromise. including no mayonaise or anything containing even a fraction of an egg or a bit of cheese with rennet, ever.
-no sex out of wedlock, ever.
-the master is God in human form.
-Only he can take you to the “highest” spiritual region.
-He administers all your karma.
-ONLY by initiation by a “perfect” master can you be liberated.
-Manmukhs are bad, gurmukhs are good.
-The Sant Mat ‘secret handshake’…palms together saying “Radha Soami”, in some cases impulsively to the point of neurosis.
and I could go on for quite a while.
If someone finds peace and happiness doing this path, fine, but they should not be under the illusion that they are not following a religious cult with all the trappings and dogmatic, blind beliefs associated with such groups. Sant Mat is a “pie in the sky” belief system. Where is the proof that anyone, including the master, has acheived God-realization following the methods taught by Sant Mat or that such a state even exists?
I’m sorry, but ultimately you’re on your own to find your own truth for yourself. You are the only one who can know it, and it will only be known when you know it. No one can know it for you. How can you know that they know unless you already know it?
There may be guides and teachers as you live your life, but beware of one who places himself on the pedestal of perfection or allows others to do it for them.
A hint that helped me: What you are looking for is THIS which is looking for IT.

For those spiritually uninformed, uneducated, and naive folks like Arya who have been mislead into blindly believing that Sant Mat and Radha Soami is somehow not full of dogma and ritual, I would just like to re-emphasize what Tuscon Bob wrote:
“If someone finds peace and happiness doing this path, fine, but they should not be under the illusion that they are not following a religious cult with all the trappings and dogmatic, blind beliefs associated with such groups. Sant Mat is a “pie in the sky” belief system. Where is the proof that anyone, including the master, has acheived God-realization following the methods taught by Sant Mat or that such a state even exists?
I’m sorry, but ultimately you’re on your own to find your own truth for yourself. You are the only one who can know it, and it will only be known when you know it. No one can know it for you. How can you know that they know unless you already know it?
There may be guides and teachers as you live your life, but beware of one who places himself on the pedestal of perfection or allows others to do it for them.”
That’s very right-on advice, and very well said. I couldn’t agree more.
The primary problem with all Sant mat and RS believers and supporters is that they are all so unwilling to look to whether or not there is any validity to what they have been told. They have blindly bought into something which has no tangible proof, something which is merely an abstract supposion, something which is not truth but is in fact only just a belief or fantasy which has no substance, no reality. This unwillingness actually reveals a deep-seated denial of truth, rather than a burning desire for the truth.

Top all of you in this discussion.
Discussion , Arguments on spirituallity are wasre of time. If you have faith , you will believe. If not you will keep searching all your life for inner peace and self realisation. I am a radhasoami, I dont critize other beleifs or religion, each have their own basis, own beliefs. No one of you can claim knowledge on santmat, radhasoami. the rule which were discussed earlier- ahimsa is just about being a vegetarian and not killing spiders . there is a basis for it. we being Human being need to eat to survive. each breath we take we inhale germs which are also living beings. Whatever we eat was living before . To do as little harm as possible it ask us to be a vegetarian. Just think of a situation where somenoe picks a flower from your plant and someone kills your pet dog. Whom are you going to be anmgry with the person who just plucked one flower or killed your dog. Ask this question to youself. Even still you are convinced I am ok but i am not going to be like youll and crticise anyone. there is a saying If you cannot say good about some one dont say anything

Jaya,
First of all, you obviously have no comprehension about the relevance and value of the many articles, discussions, and comments which pertain to Radha Soami and Sant Mat that are psoted on this blog.
Second, since you are so very uninformed, the so-called “Arguments on spirituality” that you mention are actually a fundamental facet and part of the very foundation and fabric of most all of the great spiritual and philosophical traditions, both east and west. Therefore, you are truly very immature to think otherwise and to dismiss it as a “waste of time”. And your comment was obvious evidence of that (that you are very immature spiritually).
Third, faith and belief are only valued by those who have no real knowledge or substance. And so contrary to your blndness and ignorance, faith and belief have no place whatsoever when it comes to “self-realisation”.
Fourth, you claim that you are “a radhasoami”. If that is how you see yourself, then you obviously do not have, or even understand, “self-realisation”.
Fifth, you said that you don’t criticise, but then you immediately go on to say: “No one of you can claim knowledge on santmat, radhasoami.” Actually, you have no idea as to what anyone here knows about santmat. In fact there happen to be several people here who have many many decades more experience and far deeper knowledge of Sant Mat and Radha Soami Mat than you do, or that you will ever have. So therefore, besides being very immature spiritually and philosophically, you are also an stupid impudent little fool as well.
Sixth, your insipid preaching, ie babbling about vegetarianism and “ahimsa”, is about as pathetic and lame as it gets. You should go back to the RS cult nursery school where you belong.

Jaya, Tao raises a very valuable point: Spiritual argument or discussion ‘is the very foundation and fabric of most all of the great spiritual and philosophical traditions, both east and west.’
Sant mat puts a huge muffler on interactive debate. Having lived through the sant mat approach I know that not placing a question mark after or infront of anything faith- based is debilitating and has a ‘dumbing down’effect on practisioners.
Your argument for vegetarianism is not originated by Sant Mat.

Once you are in RSSB . You just cannot find better path . No matter how far you can go away but there is no where to go . we have to come back and knock same door .some time world is more fun but more pain in this fun than enjoyment .Path is very clear but very very hard . We have full knowledge of god , karma and world which we just could not gain anywhere or anyother path .
I am just missing satsang from years but looking forward to see babaji again in next meeting

Vijay,
On the contrary, once you are “in RSSB”, you are in a heap a’ trouble. No “better path” you say? You are sooo lost. Anywhere is better than authoritarian guru-cult dogma. The endless wonder of life is waiting beyond the narrow confines of RS BS. There is everywhere to go. Sorry for you that you have such a sad vision of life as “pain”. You have no such “full knowledge of god , karma and world”. In fact, you don’t even have a clue.
You have been “missing” more than just satsang. You are missing some marbles. And your “babaji”… well he nothing more than a cheap fraudulent guru that only stupid childish fools want to “see” and believe in.

God has made dogs meant to bark, so they are doing their job.Some humans are born with animal instincts, you cannot blame them because they are unfortunate due their deeds to you tao

instead of criticising any path tao why don’t you post your experience what is right and wrong? or shut up and put your filthy face in your f***ing a**.

Jeremy,
Your rather pathetic comments above are nothing more than a sad and unfortunate testimony of your ignorance, stupidity, anger, and foolishness.
It’s also funny when clueless morons like you make such asses out of themselves in a forum such as this.
Heh heh heh

I am sorry ,Tao and germy . I take my comment back
Good luck
Have a nice life

The human tendency to create hierarchies, is just that, and is not a basis to cast judgment upon RSSB.
No one needs a Leader or Master to follow in the general sense, but one does need a “guide” when one’s consciousness has entered into the inner spiritual planes.
Of course, if one is unaware, or simply has never experienced these inner planes, one could easily dismiss all Satsangi’s as simply “believers” in just another cult of followers, never realizing the real purpose for the Satguru.
Satsangi’s can be just as self-righteous as any other believer, as the Ego is most difficult to subdue. That you find reason to cast judgment upon RSSB and Satsangi’s in general, simply illustrates the path of egomaniacal blindness and narrow-mindedness that you had chosen for this lifetime.
Perhaps it will be different in your next one…
Sid See

Sid See, on behalf of whoever you’re referring to, thanks for the good wishes for the next life.
I have a request. You used the word “one” rather than “I” in referring to your beliefs and experiences. Could you restate what you said in direct “I” language?
What I mean is, can you say “I have experienced inner mystical planes of consciousness. While there I have been guided by the guru, _______ (name).”
Something like that. I sincerely want to better understand what reality is all about. It’s frustrating when people speak generally of what they know, rather than offering direct evidence (even subjective).
Though you speak negatively of the ego, you’ve just claimed to know much more than I do. Or what almost everyone else knows. I think it’d be befitting for you to directly say “I know this” rather than making your claims indirectly.
If you know the truth, say it. Otherwise, readers like me are going to think, “Well, there’s another opinion, among many.”

Dear tao,
What a man u r? I have never seen a person like you who believe in God so much. You have real believe in RSSB than any other who gives coment on this site.Your comment posting on this site proves ,u are the real believer of RSSB.Your love with RSSB allow you to spend your costly time for writing or reading comments. Well done man continue to love GOD and RSSB. You are the true lover of RSSB.

Parveen,
Responding to your previous post. Have you heard of scrupulosity? It is a psychiatric problem, a mental illness. Scrupulous person is always worried about accidentally doing any bad karma, and he is so obsessed about this that he stops doing any karma. I guess thats what you called surrender:) And why I am talking about it here- because thats what RSSB is making their disciples: scrupulous people; a group of people who are suffering from various anxiety disorders. And I am not bluffing here. My very close relative (a very strict dogmatic RSSB follower)has been diagnosed with scrupulosity. He got his last anxiety attack when he was scared of ‘Babaji’ for if he won’t meditate properly , he will be dragged with the bulldozer. His doctor told me to get help from other follow satsangis cause he will be receptive to them and will try to fix his philosophy of life. To my utter surprise, I spoke with 8 satsangis and found out that they all were on some form of medication for anxiety disorder. All nice good hearted people obsessively worried about salvation and morality and trying to save themselves from some imaginary punishment. You might have joined this cult recently or simply are following cause you were born to dogmatic parents, stay there for few years, if you will have God’s grace either you will be out of it without causing much harm to yourself like Tao or Brian, OR you will suffer everyday in fears of unknown.
Nick,
if you are so clear about your philosophy and think Tao is laughable, why do you keep visiting this blog? Do your simran and bhajan rather than wasting time here. Why are you getting challenged about somebody criticizing the path. Your post shows that you have been given the instructions from Dera to defend the RSSB. Seems like this blog is becoming too popular and RSSB is threatened. Less western followers means less dollars for them. (That reminds me, I don’t understand that why do we have one money box in every room in Petaluma RSSB center. Gentle reminders to the disciples: don’t forget to empty your pocket)
Thanks Brian for starting this blog. You are a good inspiration to me. You give me hope that my relative can be out of cult and won’t suffer long with his RSSB beliefs.
And Thanks so much Tao, for not tolerating the RSSB nonsense. Initially I thought your language was rude, but I guess some people needs to be shaken badly before they utter any parrot philosophy. I have had enough of preaching from these people. Every RSSB satsangi loves to preach. They are sick delusional people who can kill the innocence in other people while trying to gain their salvation.

Sapient,
Thanks. Yes “delusional people”. You sure got that one right. Glad to see that you’ve seen beyond the surface of the RS guru-cult conditioning, and contrived religious moral dogma and holier-than-thou judgementalism.
As for my so-called “rude language” that I use, well my philosopy is whatever is necessary to make the point. And if mere words upsets some people, then that just shows that they have hang-ups and are also in denial about something. So the sooner they face the truth about how detrimental authoritarian guru-cultism and rigid dogma is, the better for them. Sometimes medicine is bitter, but for those who are sick, in the end it’s sure worth it.
People can either wake-up easily, or put up a big struggle and fuss. It’s all up to them.
Best of luck and blessings to you with your sincere efforts to help liberate your relative who is still trapped in the insidious cult mind-control web of RSSB.

Tao & Sapient,
I have gone through your words on this blog about most of the satsangies of RSSB. You are absolutely clear in your words which are straight forward and true to a very large extent.
Well, it is your own experience which has prompted you to look for an alternative and better course of study to understand the ultimate energy which is sustaining this universe and us that has science been struggling to explain.
I wish all of you a success in future which I understand you will either have it or somebody else will accomplish your task if this puppet of flesh yields to the vagaries of nature or ever degenerating this man machine gives in.

Your all asses

To the cowardly hit-and-run commentor who refuses to identify him/her self:
We all may be “asses”…. but you are the shit that gets flushed down the toilet.
Bye Bye…. Fluuussshhh….

Tao,
Have you noticed someone using your “Tao” name lately? Some times I get confused, regarding some statements. Oh well, no big deal. I like the 60 year old biker dude.

Rakesh,
I don’t understand your comments. I didn’t say that I am looking for any alternative course or actually any course of study to understand anything?
Are you trying to say that all the anxiety disorders are basically due to some ultimate energy which disciples are unable to sustain and science is struggling to explain. I am sorry if I misunderstood you, but I have heard this argument a lot in Petaluma sewa center,while my research of finding satsangis with anxiety disorders. I heard this argument, that disciples with disorders are those who have been given lots of grace by the Master but were unable to sustain the grace (and such people are then compared to Bulle shah..a disciple who went crazy for his master..) Isn’t it a ridiculous argument?
Just FYI, science clearly understand this problem and there are a bunch of medicines already available and if a person dedicatedly takes medicine for 5-6 months, all the grace comes back and person can think of living a normal life.

Sapient,
I normally say that words have a very limited scope of expression. Either these are wrongly expressed or misunderstood. I was not at all talking about the energy that you have expressed. Science has now better understood the human psychological/ psychiatric problems than the days of Bulle Shah etc. Medicines have been evolved which can set right the anxiety disorders within 4 -5 months, is irrefutable.
I am a geologist by profession and introduced to the subject in 1974. Let us not debate “to understand the ultimate energy which is sustaining this universe and us that has science been struggling to explain”.
In death, it is not the functions of the vital organs of a person which stop working alone but the force working to set those functions is withdrawn. It is not difficult even to explain the source of that force. Ample number of words and phenomenon are known to put forth to explain it. Yet something is missing…………To explore and express this missing…………………, all of us are struggling to explain. If you feel nothing remains to explain now and everything has been accomplished. YOU ARE GENIOUS AND I BOW BEFORE YOU.
KNOWLEDGE ALWAYS FOLLOWS PROGRESS………………………………..
Rest in next. I shall love to hear from you, not about my poor expression but some addendum from your end.

Rakesh–
Your words always come across comforting. I am not sure why I feel that way when I read the things you write. There is something postitive about your tone. Anyway, I don’t normally give compliments.
–Chris

Chris,
Thanks! It is your perception.

Rakesh–
Yes, of course, I wrote it! It may also be something else.
–Chris

Chris,
Thank once again.
With love.
Bhasin

Chris,
Thank once again.
With love.
Bhasin

Rakesh–
Thanks friend.
–Chris

Hello fellow members…I have recently been blessed with nam-dan (better to say have been on the initiation recently)…I am full time writer and part time stock broker and analyst…frankly speaking I couldn’t stop myself after reading this forum to comment…as I am just like a kid in front of you people so let’s keep my thoughts unfolded for the future. Ameen!

Radha Swami
Respected Sir/Mam
I Jatender Singh Talwandi a resident of India I am a satsagi for the last 20 years and my entire family is also satsagi I belive in RSSB a lot but i dont know y my wish is not fullfilled I was trying for the higher education in uk I got the admission but the fee what they asked me was too high they were asking me around 15000 pounds which my parent cannot pay in their entire life i try to take the loans from the bank but the banks say that u should provide the security which i dont have so frm where i bring 15000 pounds that means my wish gone into the water if some one who is really a satsagi of RSSB and can help me to pay the fee i will repay her or him while doing the job if u know the mail of maharaj ji then ple forword my mail to him so that he will come to know i am in a need of money for my higher education.

Dear Brian,
I am a 33 year old agnostic seeker from Mangalore in India. I was initiated by Gurinder Singh Dhillon 7 years ago.
During the time of initiation, I could clearly see a beam of light emerging from the Guru’s eye and it hit me right on the spot where the “mystical third eye” is supposed to exist.
I have also heard that this mystical transmission of light can be had from several Gurus from other paths too.
Can you please give your views on the transmission of light from eye to eye by the Guru to the disciple. I would love to hear from you, since I believe you are balanced and analytical.
Thank You, Yours sincerely
Deepak Kamat

Dear Deepak,
I know you addressed this question to Brian, but just wanted to commend you on your inquisitive nature.
Personally, I don’t think anybody has an ‘answer’ to your question, most probably even the gurus themselves!
Basically, weird shit happens!
I too have had similar experiences around Gurinder, and know of hundreds of other peoples experiences around him and many, many other gurus. I also know of several similar type experiences happening around regular non-guru people.
The creation and our existence is a mysterious place. It’s your sincere searching that may reveal some mysteries to you, and some modicum of peace.
Good luck friend….

Dear Manjit,
Thank you for responding to my query.
I am happy to know that I am not alone. But, did you say that this transmission of light is possible even with laymen who have never meditated in their life time?
I thought the transmission was transference of shaktipat which only happens around mystics and “enlightened figures.
Or is it past life bonding? I know one of my friend who was treating his father on death bed. Just before his father died, he gave a last glance to my friend and a light jumped from eye to eye.
My question: Was the Guru (Gurinder) aware that he had actually transmitted light to me or did it just happen (Chandian effect, as Dr. David Lane puts it).
Incidentally, I actually wrote a letter to the Guru but I didn’t receieve any reply from him in this regard.
Some of Osho’s disciples also claim weird experiences in Osho’s presence — one of which is transmission of light and a feeling of expansion of the aura.
Initially, I too had that experience. But, these days I am running a lean patch when it comes to meditation.
Anyway, do you believe that personal experiences should not be disclosed. Conservative satsangis believe that talking about inner experiences leads to stoppage of Guru’s grace. Do you believe that? Does it work? I have a hundred questions….. but I am unable to take an entirely rational stand because of personal “mystic experience”.
And, yes, as you said, I am very inquisitive. So I am usually targetted by conservative satsangis in my area for my indiscrete behaviour which they say has led to stoppage of growth.
Hope to hear from you soon, Manjit, and also from Hines. And, yes, I entirely agree with Hines when he says that the behaviour of conservative satsangis is disgusting. Gurinder is definitely a saint (if not a satguru) for being able to manage the hordes of “idiotic” satsangis. I greatly respect him for that even if he had never initiated me.
Thank you Manjit.

Hello Deepak,
Very interesting message! I really like your questioning, even in the face of the conservative satsangis. It’s a great indicator of a strong and wise character!
I couldn’t tell you if Gurinder was aware of your specific experience, but I consider it at least a possibility.
For me personally, I began to really question to what extent the gurus themselves consciously generate these experiences, when I became personally aware of similar experiences happening with total ‘laymen’. When I say laymen, I mean people with a deep interest in mysticism, but certainely not ‘gurus’ if you see what I mean? I know these experiences definitely happened, because I was present. It was a strange ‘pulling’ beam of light from eye to eye.
From all my research into these things, I have come to a conclusion that no guru is really aware of either how these things happen, or how to control them consciously, but of course I may be wrong! Have you read Faqir Chand’s writings? You may find some interesting insights into a ‘gurus’ mind there? It’s all available online.
What I am personally confident in, is that this creation is a wonderfully mysterious place! I think there is more to some of these things than the reductionist scientist would have. Absolutely certain, in fact 🙂 It’s allowing this mystery to penetrate our being, which is a beautiful thing imo.
I may be the wrong person to ask about sharing inner experiences! I have expressed almost all the expressable ‘inner’ experiences I have had openly on the internet, and with close friends and family. But, I was (thankfully!) never initiated, and never considered any problem with it.
However, I think different people are, well, different! Certain people may have pride in their experiences, which would be a strong reason to not disclose them. As a youngster, I never told my inner experiences to anyone, as it would have been the wrong time to do so…..as I considered them special, unique etc at the time. If you consider inner ecstasy identical to a cup of tea, then perhaps it is okay? 🙂
Each to their own.
I also agree with you on your comments about Gurinder. Alas, on the internet, not many people will agree. Gurinder is doing a rather wonderful job, imo, of creating some sort of order in a massive sangat comprised of so many different types of people. Many, I’m sure, ‘idiots’ (hey, I was one too:).
Anyway, I wish you good luck in your searching, you sound like you are pretty much on the right track!
Take care my friend.

Manjeet,
Have you really come across any person who could actually leave his body at will as the Radha Soami teaching puts it.
Whenever I visited Beas or even some other Ashram, I have come across hardcore meditators but not one with a perfect control of his body. It is even said that those who have gone in or those in total control do not speak. Is it?
If you know anyone, tell me. Personally, on my part, I did try the Radha Soami meditation after my initiation in 2000. However, I was never able to sustain my meditation beyond an hour at a stretch.
Just curious, why didn’t you experiment with initiation after all those experiences.
Anyway, you seem to have a lot of experience in the Guru scene. How old r u and where are u?
Do tell me.
Bye friend.

Deepak,
Be patient. Move slowly. You have answered yourself by saying “Whenever ……………….but not one with a perfect control of his body. It is even said that those who have gone in or those in total control do not speak. Is it?”
It is a law of the land; “those who speak, do no have the experience and those who have the experience, do not speak.” Better write a letter to the master and adress your question to him, you will get the reply and proceed accordingly.
There is always a hidden helping hand. I hope by the time you will be reading this mail of mine your querry might be over.
I admit that I hold no authority whatsoever to rEply your question on this path of meditation. One is liable to fall abysmal depth in no time. Little experiences, if digested, will lead you to vast experiences which you will not like to discuss. I often say that experience is non-transferable. Discussing it, inflates the ego. It is this veil alone which alone has to be pierced. Otherwise 300 years of meditation will not give even an iota of experience.
THE ONLY THING MAN HAS DONE HAS ONLY CHANGED THE MATTER FROM ONE STATE TO THE OTHER.
THE ONLY THING THE MAN HAS CREATED ON THIS EARTH IS EGO, MORE EGO AND STILL MORE EGO WITH AGE AND CALLS IT EVOLUTION.
with lots of love,

That is exactly the problem. The Guru does not answer directly. Plus there is confusion on Sant Mat version 1.0 and 2.0. There are also doubts if the experiences around the Guru happen by itself or is in the knowledge of the Guru.
If u can clear the confusion, clear it. The problem is that answers from the horse’s mouth are not forthcoming. Atleast not for me. How about you, Rakesh?

Just stopped by for a quick comment…
But I see things have rather degenerated in my absence. Such as another one of those annoying infestations of satsangi simple-mindedness.
To Jatender Singh Talwandi, Deepak Kamat, Rakesh Bhasin, and any other RSSB goonies that may be lurking…. Sadly, you guys are sooo pathically hung-up in siritually retarded RS guru-cult la-la-land. You and your goofy gooroo mentality really belongs back in India at the Dera, not here. Haven’t you got anything more interesting to discuss besides that same old tired stale RS baloney? How boring. Wake-up before you waste your entire life.
I’m outta here.

Dear Tao,
YOUR MUCH AWAITED REMARKS ARE MOST WELCOME.
YOU GO YOUR WAY I GO MINE………………
WITH LOTS OF LOVE,
HARE KRISN

Tao, since it doesn not interest you, and you do not find it the path of Santmat important by all means, LEAVE! No body is asking you to stay and give your useless in put anyways. And funny, your calling us the “goon”?

Tao, ISKCON is a greater cult than RSSB. So you have got stuck from one cult to another. That’s really funny. I wish you had stuck to your name of Tao which is a great path.
Before advising others, why don’t u be free of cultish mentality?

To Deepak,
Sorry to inform you, but apparently you are much dumber than you think you are.
Fyi, I have absolutely nothing to do with ANY cults, and that includes the ISKCON. I am not a member of ISKCON, not a follower or believer of ISKCON, and I have no connection with ISKCON in any way.
And I was never ever “stuck” in any sort of cult, and especially not RSSB or ISKCON. So unfortunately (for you) you don’t know what you are talking about.
Furthermore, if you had any sort of minimal understanding of the Tao, then you would know that it is not and cannot be a “path”. Never was, never will be. You are just another typical spiritual neophyte with your own ignorant “cultish mentality”.

Rakesh,
Thanks Bro, and peace and love to you too.
—————————
Now to the anonymous poster who is too stupid to sign his/her name…
Yes Santmat does not interest me, but I don’t need to “LEAVE”. This blog is not strictly an RSSB forum, and it is also certainly not a place for your “useless in put”.
And yes, it is now quite obvious by your response that you are indeed a Santmat/RSSB “goon”.

Dear Tao,
To me you are a very interesting person. In India in local Hindi in parts of states of North India, Tao or Tau is a sobriquet for elder brother of one’s father. He commands a lot of respect. That is how I take you.
With loving regards,

Rakesh,
Thanks for your kind words. In years past, I’ve spent a lot of time in India, both northern and southern, but I was not familiar with that colloquialism.
For some odd reason that reminds me of Shivapuri Baba a yogi who lived to 137 years old. Back around 1970 in Nepal, some few miles outside of Kathmandu on the road to Bodenath, as a yogi I used to like to go and spend long contemplative afternoons alone in a very special peaceful meadow very near to where Shivapuri Baba’s kutir had been located among the whispering trees of the forest up on a hill beyond the far side of the river above the ancient Pashupatinath temple. Somehow, his unique spirit and soft glowing presence was still there, like a spiritual great uncle. His teaching was called svadharma – right life.
I suppose that I hold that same kind of feeling or regard for him as you have described.

My experience with the Radha Soami Satsang Beas has been gained from attending local and national Satsangs(religious meetings) with my family.It seems to me that the top blog concerning an email from a ‘Netemara’ on this page is lined with errors, leading to your sceptism of the Radha Soami path. I would like to explain to you exactly the belief i share in regards to our path. ‘We’ are not a ‘Religion’ or a ‘Philosophy’ as the conventional terms define faiths. The Radha Soami’s believe in a path, the instructions laid out are words of guidance, to increase ones good karma and prevent a further creation of bad karma. Some bad Karma, yes, is believed to be the result of bad decisions in a previous life causing misdeeds and the very point of seeking forgiveness by performing good deeds is for the misdeeds in a past life and the current life being repented. This can be understood from the example of a scale. For ones misdeeds can be placed on one end of a scale, for enlightenment one must counterbalance by performing good deeds, thus opening ones heart to better courses of action and decision making. Netemara’s experience with Radha Soami Satsang Beas seems limited-forgive me- for her belief that Radha Soami’s only believe it is wrong to kill spiders and adds that they are vegetarians afterwards. Surely if your vegetarian you do not agree wth the killing of any animals. Where such a deed can be avoided, is this not the right course of action? It is better to allow God’s creatures to exist and live on, rather then kill them, merely because of a preference for the taste of a beings flesh. Animals may not be as intelligent as human beings in ways which we recognise, however they DO have emotions (fear), as we do, hence ones double standards for indulgence, causing the killing of an animal. What tells you shoudln’t eat your pet dog for dinner, preference? Just because you can’t put a lead around an animal and you have difficulty recognising the instincts and emotions of smaller life forms thus preventing affection or apprectiation of the living being, does not justify your actions of paying your butcher to kill your prefered animal ‘FOR’ you so that you can enjoy eating it. Try to imagine swapping places with the animal… Deterence from killing a living being does NOT mean that bad karma will not occur to you, it means that you will not incur FURTHER bad karma for funding the killing of an animal and becomes a deed incurring Good Karma.
Not all Catholics are self-rightous and narrow-minded, this is a clear case of generalisation, base opinions on individuals, pidgeon holing is not as black and white as you suggest.
It seems to me that your knowledge of the Radha Soami path is much too limited to be criticising it. Perhaps some reading up may assist your perception of us. ‘Dogmatic’ suggests the guidance of the path must be immediate and is harshly imposed, this is not so, Babaji merely shares his guidance with us and we learn from it.
For those who genuinely do not believe that Babaji has got lessons for us all, look at Radha Soami’s from this perspective. Take the example of a person who ‘religiously’ commits themselves to performing good deeds and not bad, with many years of life experience as a senior human being and the bearer of sane, rational and fair mentality. If there is not a better teacher for good life lessons, who is? Someone who is not affected by Superficial pursuits, rises out of bed in the morning, meditates and devotes the day to more good deeds- This is who you are writing about. The best example i could give is a grandparent, how many useful lessons can be learned from senior citizens, people who have experienced life for many more years then you, spent tireless year perfecting the best way to make a cup of tea or thought about the same issue many more times then yourself, surely this would amount to a very nice tasting cup of tea. We merely gain wisdom from a fellow human-being, a lot more clean-living then ourselves, not a bad way to go, considering that many are driven by their Id’s and Ego’s. The Superego (ones moral perception) is what is enhanced within the Radha Soami path and it is this pursuit we follow. Whether you believe in God or not, there are many lessons for clean living which can be learned from someone who is more experienced in life than ourselves and for those of a spiritual nature meditation is a smiling route to enlightenment as it allows us to carry on purifying the mind, by clearing our thoughts.
Anyone who struggles with such guidance is always welcome to voice their concerns directly to Baba Ji, i have heard many people do so and Baba Ji has offered them on many occasions with positive feedback, if applied then the problem cannot persist with the application of a solution.
Thank You for reading this. Radha Soami.

I would be glad to read some feedback, it’s interesting to see the different perspectives of those from different cultures, im a learner not a teacher but it seems like quite a few of us have resorted to bickering, keeping it civil is probably a good idea people… I welcome a debate with all of you if you have the time…
Radha Soami

Dear All ,
I Can Just Say that this is really a path which is clear, no curves ,no breakers just a smooth ride to our Father i.e. God
Radha Soami

Hi all
Very interesting blog!
I was born into a satsangi family and brought up – meaning veggie and all that – from birth. To be honest I have never felt pressurised by family/friends/fellow satsangis etc in this faith. I recently sat for initiation of my freewill after getting married and have never encountered any negativity from my husband or inlaws.
I have found this path to be relatively easier with much less restrictions- no rituals etc which I find very difficult to handle – nor have I encountered hard sell converting!
Every religion etc has a history – we were not there we don’t know what really happened – is there any point in splitting hairs?
What matters is the here and now and not religion we are but what kind of person we are and what we do day to day.
be a good person and set a good example to all around and you will shine – we all need faith – in ourselves and each other
Take care all!

Alexander Dhah,
To be quite frank, you are so full of it… full of Radha Soami cult dogma and guru-bhakti beliefs that is… And full of crap too.
This blog is not some venue for preaching and proseltizing Sant Mat and Radha Soami doctrine and lame “Babaji” baloney. Your blind faith in RSSB is your own personal business, but it is not appropriate to dump it upon us here. Most of us here already know all about it and more, and so are not interesred in being preached to about Sant Mat and having your typical Babaji devotional BS posted repeatedly. Go and preach to the RS sangat at your local satsang if you wish to do that. This is not the place. This forum is for scientific and philosophical discussion, not for preaching stale old RSSB cult dogma. Don’t come here like you’re some sort of expert and others are dim-wits. You ought to at least read some of the diverse content here before posting your RSSB cult garbage.
However, if you wish to engage in intelligent discussion about the various philosphical and scientific issues that Brian raises, then that’s alright. JUst keep your RSSB baloney out of it.
Got the message?

Alexander Dhah,
I have gone through your comments. Tao is currect to a large extent. But if you go through Tao’s comments here and in other posts. These are extreme.It is his style.He has given exremely well comments on various philosphies. Along with scientific discussion, this blog has a tendency to drag each other. There are only a few people who put forth their comments keeping in view the sentiments of others.
Yet I feel it is a worth blog of its own kind. Someone has said in Hindi ” UTAM VIDYA LEEJIYE YADDAPI NEECH PE HOYE.” It means in english, one must accept the right teachings even if it comes fro a lowely person.
I have always thanked Tao for his remarks as
he has always unknowingly helped me to improve. From his comments and his posts, I equate him with almond which has a hard shell but soft and sweet kernel.
Live with sweet experiences. We all have them from some quarter or the other.
regards

Hai,
I am a neophyte been initiated in this path around 5 years back. I was surprised to read so many different views in this article. I must clarify some basic things of santmat. Sant mat generally means association with truth. Guru I mean the inner guru helps us in developing this association.
So the questions which every one must ask before entering this path is
1. What do they want??
2. Why do they want it???
Satsang is not just attending satsangs, doing seva etc, it is a way of life. It is a inner path. so it is difficult to generalise it and make it fit all. It is true that a person can be in this path and yet be blind for many years. So everythings depends upon our past samskaras (attitudes and tendencies). So instead of criticising others of their shortcomings let us work more on ourtself and find truth.

Hi,
had a good read of all this. I am not a RS initiate. I went to the satsang at haynes park as I was told that the babaji will be there so i thought lets see what is all the fuss about. I went there and i could guess there might have been at least 1000 plus poeple. It was all normal. there was some sort of hym singing by a lady. I was told look into his eyes and i will feel something. All of the sudden babji comes through into the tent with hands together. the lady singing the hyms had some sort of an adrelaline rush as her voice sort of changed and poeple around started putting the hands together. Some ladies started crying and i thought what the fk? he sat at his conference table on a raised floor and quickly scanned over everyone sitting on the cold floor and chairs. to be honest I felt nothing seeing him. the day was was a chance for poeple to ask questions but we were told no personal questions allowed. I listened on and one young girl about maybe 23 yrs old said how do i pray to you? he said you should pray to god. pretty good answer, me thinks. others got up and some asked for bakshi – i don’t know the english eqv maybe but maybe asking for salvation or mercy??? but it seemed he felt nothing. overall it seemed like people were looking up at him as some sort of saviour. his answers to people’s questions were so simple that even i could answer them and if not even better and i ain’t religous at all but just knowledgable. There were a number of points i made to his followers who i came with and they asked what i thought and these were:
. a true saint has no need to live a materialistic life i.e. the listed building together with the huge acre of land he has.
. a true saint is a humble person i.e. Guru Nanak, Lord Jesus Christ are examples. he was too formal and professional on the stage even in a swinging office chair.
. a true saint would have sat on the floor like everyone else as he would consider himself to be at the same level as others i.e. equal.
. a true saint lives a simple life hence first point i made (materialistic).
. i have heard his children have gone to a private school so where does the money come from to fund this – donations?
. the seva i saw there i could call it nothing but building and site maintenance services, not seva. the humble definition of seva is to do it with the kindest of human nature, to do seva that a human being in need will benefit from it i.e. a poor or homeless person, to do seva where you treat others equally, to do seva where your mind is with god and it is focused on the seva you are undertaking. the stories i heard from there were of young/old people who seem to like power in their hands, like to gossip about others.
understandably no one is perfect so there is scope for change for those on seva. There is no doubt it is an organisation and not a religion, as the satsang attendees were english, asian and what seemed like one muslim family, so its clear it is some sort of spiritual path. The baba seemed to do a good job as his focus was to teach the sangat about meditation to god but in exchange for that he wanted initiation for new comers and that is wrong according some questions asked. its like i srcatch your back and you do mine. true saints don’t behave like this. they aim is to spread message of god or whatever knowledge they have and not to ask for anything for in return (to give for return of something is old business/trade tactics). true saints even forbid photo being taken and thats how dettached they are from worldly needs and pressures. He on the other hand has nice photos of himself and his previous master hung in homes of his followers walls and window seels, bedrooms (thankfully not bathrooms!) his message was good but he has a huge responsibility to ensure his message is not taken the wrong way i.e. thinking that he is some sort of saviour, guru, form of god when clearly he is just a mortal anus hole with no godly powers in his possesion. if he does not clear this then i can clearly say he wants people to see him as some superior person, that if you believe in him then you will meet god via him and that is clearly wrong.
India is home to a lot of religions and sults and since its a third world country, twats like him are taking advantage of vunerable poeple who are desparate for a good outcome and get sucked into his trap. i mean look at sai baba reloaded. he is commiting abuse and getting away with it thanks to india’s democracy.
I have heard that RS baba uses sections out of the guru granth sahib. the guru granth sahib clearly says that belief in a mortal human being is wrong and that the ultimate guru is the granth. i ain’t no ego fested person as all religions’ in the world have one aim to believe in god and these holy scriptures are written and compiled by messengers from god (so i am told) but people have misinterpretted them and using these scriptures to do wrong for their own advantage. the guru granth sahib only contains knowledge, common sense and no where in it will you find points where it downgrades other faiths or people or promotes itself, justifies war or death. Muslim scholars will back this up as they have studied the holy sciptures to quite some depth. My point is that if babaji is portraying himself like the saviour and is using sections from guru granth then he should consider reading that part (that is if he can read those complex scripts) and see what he is doing and what the sangat is seeing.
A direct connection to god is ideal via simple meditiation but like some have said you need to understand yourself first and only you as a person can do that no third person can help other than taking advantage of your desparate cry. Going through ups and downs in life will always happen but it does not mean when you go through desparate times that you should look up to a mortal person/conman for inspiration and guidance. if you can’t give yourself inspiration then what good inspiration will a mortal baba do since only you know yourself? From what i saw there, poeple had learnt nothing maybe only less than 10 poeple out of 1000 may have changed into good poeple and few of them who i know and i won’t describe them as self centred or bad.
there are some damn right arrogant, selfish and self centered RS poeple who i know and there is no other way i can describe them and good thing i didn’t see them there.
For those who are sikhs and follow this path must understand that your 10th guru made it clear that the guru granth sahib is the ultimate guru and no other shall succeed it but why you have gone ahead and believe in this mortal person beats me since he uses sections out of the guru granth to make himself look good. I as a sikh don’t believe in the sikh guru’s as some sort of idol or picture worshipping as they forbidded this and for their respect i don’t do this but i believe that the life they lived and the actions they have done carry certain messages/meaning which we as sikhs (others please feel free) need to interpret and apply to ourselves to live a good life regardless of religion or caste.
Good day to you all.
Dan

Dan has seen “outside the box” of RS cultism. Followers want it to be true so desperately that they put on blinders to what is obvious and right in front of them.

Dear Tau,
please advise,what are the five sounds called ie shabads?
why do you need a living master and why at initiation, if god is within you and the soul is from the creator we are one with him alredy, so we are one with god. if we have the understanding and have the insight, then why we can not get the five shabads to enjoy without being initiated, one has pure intentions and unconditinal love for all beings at every level, with good heart and peace for every single atom in his creation, then why one can not get the five melodies to enrich the soul further, without being initated by a living master??
God is living within us, then that makes us living with GOD!! so whats the BIG deal with the five Holy Names.
Can some one please tell me these five names, melodies or sounds called ie shabads?
i would be most Gratefull to you Brain tao if could let me know these five names, melodies or sounds called ie shabda,as you have already been initiated.
Thank you all.

Sam,
Sam wrote:
“what are the five sounds called ie shabads?”
— You will have to get initiation for that.
“why do you need a living master”
— You don’t.
“and why at initiation, if god is within you and the soul is from the creator we are one with him alredy, so we are one with god.”
— Why what? What’s the question?
“why we can not get the five shabads to enjoy without being initiated”
— Enjoy? Enjoy what? …a mantra? Don’t bother. Just enjoy your life.
“one has pure intentions and unconditinal love for all beings at every level, with good heart and peace for every single atom in his creation, then why one can not get the five melodies to enrich the soul further”
— If you really have as you say “unconditinal love for all beings at every level, with good heart and peace for every single atom in his creation”, then you definitely do not need any such “five melofies” mantra.
“God is living within us, then that makes us living with GOD!! so whats the BIG deal with the five Holy Names.”
— There is no “BIG deal”. Don’t worry about it.
“Can some one please tell me these five names, melodies or sounds called ie shabads?”
— As I told you in an other post, someone may ber willing to tell you, but it will do you no good whatsoever. Its not going to get you anywhere. You don’t need any mantra.
“i would be most Gratefull to you Brain tao if could let me know these five names, melodies or sounds called ie shabda,as you have already been initiated.”
— I am tAo, I am not Brian. Brian is the blog owner. Two different people. I am not going to tell you the fibe names or any other mantra because you don’t need any mantra/simran, and none of it will do you any good and will only simply perpetuate your suppositions and illusions. If you want the names, then bgo get initated. Better yet, find out who YOU are – who is it that wants to acquire some particular “five names” mantra, and why?

Thanks fellows for your feed back.
First of all i do not wish to CHEAT myself or anyone in that matter, and one has pure intentions and unconditinal love for all beings at every level, with good heart and peace as a base to enrich the soul further, without being initated by a living master??
What if i don’t want to be initiated by RS guru??? or follow the RSSB sect.
I didn’t even think of getting something for nothing, i just wanted to know what the five names were, but now as you say that it is a MANTRA has POWERS, I do not wish disrespect anyone on any level.
Tao, did you find and then go the proper way or you learnt the truth some other way??? i think if i apply to be initiated just for the sake of the five names and then leave the sect, that i think would be wrong and cheating the whole system !!!
I would rather keep on researching till i find the answer,any other way without being attached to anyone or sect or hurting anyone feelings.
I KNOW WHO I and WHERE I AM GOING, thats not what i am after.
I would like to understand what they are and why the hush hush fuss about knowing them, as a man of science and free sprited soul i was just asking what they were, thats all.
LOVE AND PEACE TO ALL SOULS

Sam, you wrote: “I would like to understand what they are and why the hush hush fuss about knowing them, as a man of science and free sprited soul i was just asking what they were, thats all.”
–In certain traditions if names are given to you at initiation they become special as part of the ceremony signifying the start of the process of returning to God. If they are kept to yourself, internalized so to speak, they have power as a focal point for your meditation. To tell everyone what they are dissipates that power and specialness, not only for you but also to a certain extent for other initiates as well.
Esoterically, the names are in the Sanscrit language which is said to have certain intonations that have an affinity with the vibration of chakras and higher levels of consciousness, but the RS names are not unique in this regard. There are many chants and words believed to have such qualities.
In other words, these RS names may not have anything special about them for YOU personally. You could just as easily use another set of words or mantra that may come to you via a teacher or your own intuition and discovery.
In the 1972 movie “Jeremiah Johnson” Johnson is about to kill an enemy indian. The indian begins to chant/sing what appears to be some sort of power song. Johnson backs off and decides to leave him alone. This may have been some sort of traditional tribal chant or it may have come to the indian via a process such as a vision quest. Anyway, the indian believed it had power for him and that belief saved him.
My advice would be to not concern yourself with these RS names unless you wish to devote yourself to that spiritual path and get initiated. They have no special value otherwise, in my opinion.

Sam,
Tucson is quite right, don’t “concern yourself with these RS names unless you wish to devote yourself to that spiritual path and get initiated. They have no special value otherwise”.
Sam, also you wrote:
“I KNOW WHO I and WHERE I AM GOING, thats not what i am after.”
— Really? Then please by all means do tell us “WHO” are you, “WHO” do you “KNOW” yourself to be, and where are you “GOING”?
I for one would be interested in hearing what you have to say about who you think you are, or rather who you “know” yourself to be… and also where you know you are “going”.
And I think others may also be quite interested as well in hearing whatever you have to share about what you know about yourself. Thats much more what this forum is really all about.

One thing we must understand is that holy scripts have asked us to live a simple life but in todays world living this simple life is difficult to live, as we have bills to pay, mortgages, work for a living and a life to live and those who do live it, do live it simple and thats good for them.
My moto in life is to live it to the full but knowing there are limits, that is when good becomes bad and knowing your boundaries. Aim is to understand the result of an action before you are committing to it. For those who may have watched mahabharat (ancient story going back during india’s early years), it is pretty clear, it mentioned in there that the future is the result of the past and present and only you have the key to change that and never commit yourself to a promise or a pledge you cannot keep or leads to your desctruction. if you commit to an action then you must accept responsibility for its result to come: bad or good and be intelligent to know its likely outcome. In that, one person commits to an action and the bad results of it just keep rolling on and on until it results to a war where some people have purposely contributed to that. there is a spiritual/religous element to it i.e. Hinduism but if you just throw that out of the window and look at the characters, their behaviour then you realize that the world is already behaving this and what you can do to eliminate those behaviours in you. To be honest, we are all not perfect in every angle and if we were then world would be a better place to live but what you can do is learn from other poeple’s mistakes and ensure you don’t do that. I have seen some poeple give themselves such a huge career boost and inspiration that they have got to places in their career that you only wish you were there but if only they could do the same spiritually to better themselves but ultimatley you have to be happy with what you have materially but treasure those bonds you have with people. materially we all wish we win the lottery but we can never be satisfied, even some muslims have reportedly won the lottery when they shouldn;t have :s
Not being funny but soaps like Eastenders are good examples to learn from. at times not only does it put you at the edge of your seat but there are examples in it from which i can learn and you can begin to understand the root causes of some of the people’s problem.
we belong to religions we are born in and we must accept that but changing religions or following a path will not achieve anything until you know yourself and ultimately understand what it is you are following – knowledge or person??? My friend had this christian mate and he decided he wanted to be a sikh and follow sikhism as a religion. he grew a beard and hair and decided to wear a turban. few years down the line he decided to convert to islam, to be honest what has he achieved…? – nothing. I was once approached by these muslim students at school and uni when i was 13 and 21 and even they tried to bolster how good islam is and what it can do for me. i thought
1. you stink of bebo.
2. other than being part of a large closed off uk community that teach you tricks and trade for committing benefit fraud in complete broad daylight, what else is it good for. i see my religion as not something to be proud of as that brings ego into you but to use it as a compass to guide you in the right direction but ultimately its you in the driving seat who has to do the work not someone else. inspiring to saints such as Guru Nanak, Lord jesus Christ and moses, etc is wrong, as they are not you and you are not them. they did what they had to do in their time of their life but you have to take steps in your life i.e. what you will do now and what you will do tomorrow.
Written knowledge is only useful if you correctly understand it otherwise it has no feelings and senses nothing and can lay there for decades or centuries to come. My dad once described the black stone that Hindus worship called the shiv’lin. he said you can sit in front of it shout, giggle, cry, hit it, kick it, spill milk over it, take chunks out of it and it will feel nothing at all and thats god and i use this approach to describe knowledge.
if you commit to an action and it goes wrong then don’t expect god to to bail you out as it was you who did it and you must accept its result.
Apologies if I have unintentionally offended anyone from what i have written but truth is the truth and i just thought i give my pennies worth. My beliefs are not centred around any sect, cult, religion, path or even RS but i respect poeple and follow what is common sense
Good day to you all.
Dan

May Peace be upon all Souls!!!
To Tao and Other who want to know who i am and where i am going.
I am a vibrant SOUL, filled with unconditional love and a joyfull happy free sprit.
At present i am traveling in a HUMAN body enjoying every second of my journey on this planet and passing through this universal plane in time.
I am on my way to see, feel and experince and eventually be ONE with the universal energy, which i know as being COHESION, which keeps every soul and thing in link with one another.
That’s who i am and that’s where i am going.!
Love, peace and happiness to all.

Sam, you said:
“I am a vibrant SOUL”
–Where is this “I” and this “soul”? What is its form, boundary and dimension? Where is it in this human body? At what point do you begin and end?
You said: “I am on my way to see, feel and experince and eventually be ONE with the universal energy, which i know as being COHESION, which keeps every soul and thing in link with one another.”
–Wouldn’t this universal energy be fully present where you are right now? Why is it necessary to go ‘to’ it like it is located in some other place?
Think of this: Rather than being some force binding things in a cohesive way, perhaps this universal energy is functioning as those things. Maybe you are it looking for itself as some sort of thing rather than just being it as itself. Could that be it? Maybe your being is its functioning. Rather than ‘you<>it’, try ‘>yit<'. Clarification to readers, as if any would be interested...I read what people say here and respond in a way that may appear that I am telling them what their truth should be. Rather, it is I using their truth to clarify my truth to myself because as what I eternally am, no 'thing' at all, I can't know it. My responses are a reflection to myself elicited by what others write. If others benefit, great.

Tucson wrote:
“Clarification to readers, as if any would be interested…I read what people say here and respond in a way that may appear that I am telling them what their truth should be. Rather, it is I using their truth to clarify my truth to myself because as what I eternally am, no ‘thing’ at all, I can’t know it. My responses are a reflection to myself elicited by what others write. If others benefit, great.”
Give me a break 🙂 You may believe — self-deceive — yourself (sic) but I don’t think so. You have shown to be slighly smarter than that. The content of your previous post has been written by you over and over, either replying to William or other readers. It seems to have clarified absolute nothing – unless you are a very bad memory. It is only a gross rationalization that prevents anyone – if the reader buys it – from characterizing your posts as “preachy” or “know it all”; simply because – from third-person perspective — they surely sound like it. But that is not a position you can really assume or debate … It just sounds like a flaky excuse … slightly below “my dog ate my homework”. The former belongs to the spiritual world while the latter to the education one. That is only my opinion, as an interested reader, who does not give a damn about being wrong or right. It is simply a rational reaction – and I have stated these reasons – from reading it …
who knows if they are right or not …
As Chuck on NBC said last you week (cute TV series bwt), “the only thing I will end up doing is fooling myself …”

Elephant said: “It seems to have clarified absolute nothing – unless you are a very bad memory.”
If you meant to say that I ‘have’ a very bad memory, that’s true at times. If you really meant to say I ‘am’ a very bad memory, that’s true as well, though not ‘very’ bad’.. just stubborn. This memory called me continues to lurk about, so I need frequent reminding.
“It just sounds like a flaky excuse … slightly below “my dog ate my homework”.”
Ha! Well, yeah, but probably someone has actually had their homework eaten by the dog. Sometimes the check really is in the mail.
Good response though. Thanks, and you are right, or not. Especially your last sentence. 😉

FAO Tucson
Why don’you find out where this soul is , rather than being told, every person has a different idea and veiw of it, so i can’t generally say where this is in the human body it may vary!!! but iy’s important to know that one can feel it, as being one with the soul. there i s no end or beginning!! it just transforms it’s energy levels. Thats the reason why one has to move to a higher energy level than one present on this planet.
As i said it’s my knowing of the word COHESION it may appear to you different.
WHY should you Clarifiy to the readers,and say “as if anyone would be interested.” Let each reader voice there own opion on this and give their own a feed back, thats what this blog is all about , not one persons i.e your-summary!!
As a happy joyful free sprit i feel there is still roon in me to welcome more warmth of love and higher levels of pure engery which are being radiant in other universal planes.
LOVE AND PEACE TO ALL

Hi All,
I’m new to this blog..got this page while i’m searching to know about RSSB.
I feel this RSSB is also just another sect/system/pattern/propaganda/belief.
Till now i couldn’t find thier true
Objectives. If some body knows please post them.
Thanks

Talofa.Just got back from 21 days at RSSB-dera Punjab India.It was
a great retreat from the hurly- burly of the mundane life.
A recharging of the batteries.An awakenning of the mind to truly
focus on whats really important.Love.Prem as The Great Master Sawan Singh (RSSB) writes.in Chapt 3 ,Vol 2 Philosophy of The Masters.Such crystal clear simplicity, encapsulated in the Beatles timeless song “Love is all you need”
But if we analyse every self created ,man made problem that we all have,from our own mental sicknesses to our failures in our relationships,to the treatment of our family peers, enenies to the way we handle our environment-it is surely love that we lack-
And love that we all crave.That is why lovers of the lord no matter who they are are so vital-we 6 billion human beings are so capable of finding love,assisting love to grow within our hearts that it is the power of love – the word,nam nad,tao,shabd
kalma-is the convenient truth the audacious hope of NOW-to coin a phrase.Why deny messengers of god as Baba Ji said.
“It would be very arrogant of to say that,Sant Mat was the only way.”
But if one ever gets a chance-you initiated ones of Huzur-dont delay the Institution at Beas belongs to every stasangi-and you are always welcome.
There is a 900 set hall building being built to take NRI and NRW
(Non Resident Indian and westerners respectively) for Q & A.
Simultaneous translators similar to UN will speak to the satsangi
in their mother tongue.
So many hostels being built for us to accomodate us-that love Huzur has for us is being carried on by Baba Ji-cool eh ?
So don’t delay.Leave all the intellectual gymnastics at home and come to Beas for satsang,meditation,Q & A,darshan w Baba JI
free food,meals,food,meals sewa ,sewa sewa-seadars looking after you =reciprocal universal love,unconditional love by the guru-prasad,rickshaw rides for 50 Rs- around the dera,trips to the library,questions asked directly to Baba Ji=-a free hospital
at dera RSSB and another free hospital at 350 bed Maharaj Sawan Singh Charitable Hospital 5 km down the road.
So 21 days fr OctNov Nov Dec Jan-Feb- -MarApril-itys all on.
One thing for sure-satsang is the key meditation the answer to lifes probs.No time for intellectual noncing-tis time for spiritual awakenning-via love for satguru-meditation-pleasing the master.Why make war on the internet when we can go inside the tisra til follow instructions at initiation-so what if no sound no light-just sit there and KNOW He is there/Be still and know that I am God.
When in fact we all are.We are all sons and daughters of Sat purush-we are going home either running w the bull dozer or being dragged.The facts are life is short and we will die one day.
All debts owing to this world must be paid for.As well as the access to spiritual worlds-only meditation on Nam can loosen the shackles of mind maya/Know it to be true.We are all imperfect and need to perfect our lives=LOVE simple truth.
Radha Soami ji-Richard

Richard writes:
“Just got back from 21 days at RSSB-dera …. An awakenning of the mind to truly
focus on whats really important.”
— There is no such “mind”. Mind is a Myth. And “whats really important”?… Nothing. Because whatever you may think is “important” is all only relative.
“Love.Prem as The Great Master Sawan Singh (RSSB) writes….encapsulated in the Beatles timeless song ‘Love is all you need'”
— Bullshit. “Love” is nothing but sentimentality. The body only needs food & water & shelter, not “love”. Love is attachment and delusion.
“every self created ,man made problem that we all have,from our own mental sicknesses”
— You mean YOUR mental sicknesses.
“it is surely love that we lack-
And love that we all crave.”
— Speak only for yourself. I don’t crave love. Love is useless sentimentality
“That is why lovers of the lord no matter who they are are so vital”
— Bullshit. There is no such “lord”, and your so-called “lovers” are nothing but weak and deluded. You are just another peddler of religious myth and pseudo-mystical crap.
“it is the power of love – the word,nam nad,tao,shabd
kalma-is the convenient truth”
— Thats just more pseudo-spiritual bullshit.
“Why deny messengers of god as Baba Ji said.”
— There are no “messengers of god”. You and your “Baba Ji” are both full of the crap of religious myth.
“It would be very arrogant of to say that,Sant Mat was the only way.”
— But that’s exactly what these sick lying cult bastards imply.
“But if one ever gets a chance … dont delay the Institution at Beas belongs to every stasangi-and you are always welcome.”
— Bullshit. That’s another outright LIE. RSSB Beas is NOT open and “always welcome”. Only select Indians and a few others are allowed to live there. The majority are NOT “welcome” to live there at all. So don’t try to pretend otherwise.
“to accomodate us-that love Huzur has for us is being carried on by Baba Ji-cool eh ?”
— Not “cool” at all. Your “Babaji is a complete and total fraud. He is nothing but a phony cult guru who sucks off the energy of foollish gullible idiots like you.
“So don’t delay….come to Beas for satsang,meditation,Q & A,darshan w Baba JI free food,meals,food,meals sewa,sewa sewa-seadars looking after you reciprocal universal love,unconditional love by the guru-prasad,rickshaw rides”
— How nauseating. The Dera as it is currently, is a rotten phony piece of crap. I would not go to that place even if you paid me. And your stupid fraudulent RS guru and all his ministers should all be sent packing, and the Dera property should be turned over and given to house the poor and the homeless.
“One thing for sure-satsang is the key meditation the answer to lifes probs.”
— Absolute bullshit. Thats a lie. You don’t know what the hell you are taking about. You are just another parrot of RS dogma. RS “satsang” is no “key” to anything except for brainwashing the ignorant and the gullible. And “meditation” is NOT “the answer” to anything. Your so-called “answers” are actually the cause of problems.
“No time for intellectual noncing-tis time for spiritual awakenning-via love for satguru-meditation-pleasing the master.”
— Now you are really showing what an pathetic idiot you really are. Go back to where you belong – kissing your phony masters ass.
“Why make war on the internet when we can go inside the tisra til”
— You are the one making “war”. Go preach your stupid cult garbage somehwhere else.
“follow instructions … so what if no sound no light-just sit there and KNOW He is there/Be still and know that I am God.”
— You are full of pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo. Your so-called “instructions” are crap. You are the one who is sitting there like an idiot. And your “God” is a myth and a lie. You are nothing but a peddler of lies and bullshit.
“We are all sons and daughters of Sat purush-we are going home either running w the bull dozer or being dragged.”
— More authoritarian bullcrap. Your “Sat purush” is an complete illusion, a fantasy that you have because you are too weak and immature to be a man and stand on your own. And again, don’t speak for others you stupid inane jerk. I am the son of my father, but his name was definitely not “Sat purush”. So take your RS religious crap and shove it.
“All debts owing to this world must be paid for.”
— Then go pay your supposed debts. And take your dogma with you.
“the access to spiritual worlds-only meditation on Nam can loosen the shackles of mind maya/Know it to be true.”
— You don’t know anything “to be true”. You are full of RS dogma and “Nam” bullshit.
“We are all imperfect and need to perfect our lives”
— No, you need to speak only for yourself… YOU and YOUR life is “imperfect”. Actually there is no “imperfect”, nor is there any such thing as “perfect”. Due to your ignorance, you have made a false dichotomy.
“Radha Soami ji”
— To HELL with Radha Soami. Radha Soami is a bunch of religious myth, illusion, and lies. And it is evil because it misleads and traps and manipulates naive gullible people into a false spiritual doctrine and dogma, and into fraudulent guru worshp. The Radha Soami cult is bad news, and people like you are unfortunate ignorant suckers.
Btw, the smartest, best, and wisest thing you could do, is to immediately RUN AWAY – as FAR AWAY as possible from the Radha Soami cult and all the rest of the poor stupid and unfortunate RS satsangi bastards who are still trapped in its mind-control, web. And also quit preaching and advertising and advocating the RS garbage in forums like this.
And go get yourself a Real Life.

Richard writes:
“Just got back from 21 days at RSSB-dera …. An awakenning of the mind to truly
focus on whats really important.”
— There is no such “mind”. Mind is a Myth. And “whats really important”?… Nothing. Because whatever you may think is “important” is all only relative.
“Love.Prem as The Great Master Sawan Singh (RSSB) writes….encapsulated in the Beatles timeless song ‘Love is all you need'”
— Bullshit. “Love” is nothing but sentimentality. The body only needs food & water & shelter, not “love”. Love is attachment and delusion.
“every self created ,man made problem that we all have,from our own mental sicknesses”
— You mean YOUR mental sicknesses.
“it is surely love that we lack-
And love that we all crave.”
— Speak only for yourself. I don’t crave love. Love is useless sentimentality
“That is why lovers of the lord no matter who they are are so vital”
— Bullshit. There is no such “lord”, and your so-called “lovers” are nothing but weak and deluded. You are just another peddler of religious myth and pseudo-mystical crap.
“it is the power of love – the word,nam nad,tao,shabd
kalma-is the convenient truth”
— Thats just more pseudo-spiritual bullshit.
“Why deny messengers of god as Baba Ji said.”
— There are no “messengers of god”. You and your “Baba Ji” are both full of the crap of religious myth.
“It would be very arrogant of to say that,Sant Mat was the only way.”
— But that’s exactly what these sick lying cult bastards imply.
“But if one ever gets a chance … dont delay the Institution at Beas belongs to every stasangi-and you are always welcome.”
— Bullshit. That’s another outright LIE. RSSB Beas is NOT open and “always welcome”. Only select Indians and a few others are allowed to live there. The majority are NOT “welcome” to live there at all. So don’t try to pretend otherwise.
“to accomodate us-that love Huzur has for us is being carried on by Baba Ji-cool eh ?”
— Not “cool” at all. Your “Babaji is a complete and total fraud. He is nothing but a phony cult guru who sucks off the energy of foollish gullible idiots like you.
“So don’t delay….come to Beas for satsang,meditation,Q & A,darshan w Baba JI free food,meals,food,meals sewa,sewa sewa-seadars looking after you reciprocal universal love,unconditional love by the guru-prasad,rickshaw rides”
— How nauseating. The Dera as it is currently, is a rotten phony piece of crap. I would not go to that place even if you paid me. And your stupid fraudulent RS guru and all his ministers should all be sent packing, and the Dera property should be turned over and given to house the poor and the homeless.
“One thing for sure-satsang is the key meditation the answer to lifes probs.”
— Absolute bullshit. Thats a lie. You don’t know what the hell you are taking about. You are just another parrot of RS dogma. RS “satsang” is no “key” to anything except for brainwashing the ignorant and the gullible. And “meditation” is NOT “the answer” to anything. Your so-called “answers” are actually the cause of problems.
“No time for intellectual noncing-tis time for spiritual awakenning-via love for satguru-meditation-pleasing the master.”
— Now you are really showing what an pathetic idiot you really are. Go back to where you belong – kissing your phony masters ass.
“Why make war on the internet when we can go inside the tisra til”
— You are the one making “war”. Go preach your stupid cult garbage somehwhere else.
“follow instructions … so what if no sound no light-just sit there and KNOW He is there/Be still and know that I am God.”
— You are full of pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo. Your so-called “instructions” are crap. You are the one who is sitting there like an idiot. And your “God” is a myth and a lie. You are nothing but a peddler of lies and bullshit.
“We are all sons and daughters of Sat purush-we are going home either running w the bull dozer or being dragged.”
— More authoritarian bullcrap. Your “Sat purush” is an complete illusion, a fantasy that you have because you are too weak and immature to be a man and stand on your own. And again, don’t speak for others you stupid inane jerk. I am the son of my father, but his name was definitely not “Sat purush”. So take your RS religious crap and shove it.
“All debts owing to this world must be paid for.”
— Then go pay your supposed debts. And take your dogma with you.
“the access to spiritual worlds-only meditation on Nam can loosen the shackles of mind maya/Know it to be true.”
— You don’t know anything “to be true”. You are full of RS dogma and “Nam” bullshit.
“We are all imperfect and need to perfect our lives”
— No, you need to speak only for yourself… YOU and YOUR life is “imperfect”. Actually there is no “imperfect”, nor is there any such thing as “perfect”. Due to your ignorance, you have made a false dichotomy.
“Radha Soami ji”
— To HELL with Radha Soami. Radha Soami is a bunch of religious myth, illusion, and lies. And it is evil because it misleads and traps and manipulates naive gullible people into a false spiritual doctrine and dogma, and into fraudulent guru worshp. The Radha Soami cult is bad news, and people like you are unfortunate ignorant suckers.
Btw, the smartest, best, and wisest thing you could do, is to immediately RUN AWAY – as FAR AWAY as possible from the Radha Soami cult and all the rest of the poor stupid and unfortunate RS satsangi bastards who are still trapped in its mind-control, web. And also quit preaching and advertising and advocating the RS garbage in forums like this.
And go get yourself a Real Life.

Richard is just another RS goon who is full of rotten rubbish RS dogma and fraudlent cult-guru worship. RS and its phony master is all built on lies and deception.

I think the writer has not understood the meaning of meditation and secrifices.Meditation helps you to understand your inner.It is believed that almighty is within you only you have to see him throug your inner sight.Who says that a vegetarian would find God earlier than a nonvegitarian.It is assumed that ” Manas is affected by food” therefore you are advised to be avoid such kind of food which may create feeling of anger.Meditation mean wining self.this can be achieved only by developing control on your six senses that is Kama, Krodha,Lobha.Moah(ME) and Ego. That what i believe RS teaches us.

Well I think that this commenter Dr. Peeyush is nothing more than another foolish RS sycophant – a pee-brain who says quote “that what i believe RS teaches us” – and thus has obviously not understood anything at all, especially including not understanding meditation.

Radha Soami ji
Is it easy to love god? I mean we hav not seen god.Is not it that only he can make us falling in love with himself.It depends only god(satguru).

Seema writes:
“I mean we hav not seen god.”
— Who is “we”? – Speak for yourself. And where is this “god”? – Don’t speak about things which you obviously know nothing about.
“Is not it that only he can make us falling in love with himself. It depends only god(satguru).”
— Falling in love you say? That’s just more nauseatingly lame “god” and “satguru” mumblings from another typically brainless RS sycophant. Go back to your cult prison-cell at the RSSB where you belong.
But then “seema” is also mostlikely just another stupid hit-and-run blog commenter.

Radha swami ji ka sabad suna hai.

Woh sabad gaand se atha hai kya

If we are not satisfied with a chosen way, then there is nothing stopping us from walking away and finding a way of life that suits us better. Though disallusionment or disappointment can occur absolutley anywhere in any aspect of our lives. Radha Soami is no more or no less a method of Yoga, with a set of values that assists us. It has never advised anyone to Harm or Inflict Violence on anything or anyone, in this respect it does allow us to be better Human beings. It’s simply a classroom, each one of us understanding the lessons differently according to our own individual perspectives and experiences. Neither is ever wrong or right. There are 100’s of Masters/Gurus all over India the world, we have just picked – one. We have no proof whether Masters/Gurus are incarnations of God or not, for some of us that matters, for others, Gurus are simply people who place Guidlines that we feel comfortable following. If any teaching or philosophy has given us an opportunity to understand more than before, (whether we like what the people are doing within that group or not, and we wish to move on), then we should Try to be grateful and gracious for the insight and understanding expansion through the experience and teachings and then move to a Higher Truth…Radha Soami

I would definitely advice pplz to stay away from this great blog if they r non-beleivers and keep practicing whatever they wish…..
To the blog owner- I heartly thank you for creating such a blog but would like you to delete you old posts or comments if possible which hurt the sentiments of people and are commented by people fooling around thinking they are too much knowledgeble to read something and consider it rubbish…
Thank you.
rkvic19@yahoo.com

Also do not post topics of debate on matters of nature classified as hurting feelings of some followers……You decrease the God’s grace when you create a debate on its connections or creations..RS never asked you to preach but never stopped you to share your positive thoughts…so do it instead of generating debates on the matters of god’s grace, of which you and me have been part of, where people like in some above comments create disharteaning or disturbing messages! do these conciously as if: Would God have thought good if I wrote this and unknowledgeble people commented on this worthy topic?….
Thanks Again!
rkvic19@yahoo.com

Rahul,
My advice to you my friend. If you don’t like what Brian writes, then don’t read the blog. It’s funny…you are certainly not the first person who has tried to advise Brian about what he should or should not write about here. What I don’t understand is, do you not understand that you have a choice to read or not to read?
“You decrease the God’s grace when you create a debate on its connections or creations”
I’m sorry Rahul, but this statement is just plain offensive. How can you say Brian “decreases gods grace”? I mean come on. This is just rediculous. This reminds me a lot of Peter Pan…if the children only believe in neverland, then it will become real. And to act like we could decrease the grace of god by expressing opinions. Jeez Louise! Sounds like an authoritarian god you have there.
In sum, to Rahul and to anyone else who wishes to advise Brian what to write:
don’t read the blog or suck it up and get over “being offended.” Why are you so offended anyway? That would be the really interesting question to ask yourself, if you could stay with that investigation.
I doubt Baba Ji, if you see him as en enlightened person, would be offended by this conversation. I would bet rather that he couldn’t care less, not that he would want to stifle the opinions here.

My message to Rahul
If Brian starts deleting old posts relating to cricitisms of RSSB, the blog will lose its identity. Why should he delete it? This blog is Churchless (beyond faith). Only a man who abandons the Church becomes Churchless. If he starts deleting the posts, the blog will be anything else, but not churchless.

Deepak, I always appreciated your point of view, but aren’t you trying to show your offensive side by trying to imitate tAo in a bad way. tAo writes in a classic way, even if he writes ‘F#$ off’, it doesn’t sounds bad as he is trying to convey some point. But you wrote ‘G#$’ in your previous comment, which is very bad word and it was without any point. I do understand Hindi very well.
Again, I do understand, I should not be telling you or anybody if you should use the bad words or not, but it didn’t sound classy from you..

You are right, Sapient.
I agree with you. Tao had a way of abusing that was quite articulate and very natural.
There may be another reason for my “less classy side”. In India or for that matter elsewhere, you mainly deal with two classes of people. The one on the street and the ones on the dignified side.
During the years that I spent as a journalist. I maintained two personalities. One for the street and the other for the intellectuals. So one side of me (at least the language) is offensive, the other side of me is classy (the one for the intellectual).
So if a commoner comes to me, I won’t speak in the classic language. He won’t understand that. I will go on an intellectual mode only if the other person is receptive.
Anyway, I belive in venting out frustrations once in a while. That is why I pick up an object/subject for bashing. The traditional RS cultgoons (to quote Tao) are simpletons. Most of them if not all. That is why I like to vent out my frustration on them. I guess it is good for them. It might have shock value and force them to rethink.
I know this is a poor defence. But I use my intution to know whom to abuse and whom not to.

hi what do you know about rssb. you have to pay for this

Pawar, should I pay in cash or kind?

I don’t mind RSSB, never had a issue with them either.
If he sat on a chair or on the floor, it does not matter or makes the whole situation equal. Many speakers, sit higher for the purpose to be seen by everyone and heard easier. Not a issue, as for the whole him having a giant acre, big deal, Dera/Ashram is a ancient community thing. Times have changed for many modern people. (im not defending RSSB, Im pointing out a different perspective), if he reads parts from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib so what? No offense but the SGGS contains small passages from Hindu Sants and Sufi sants, what is the difference if he reads parts?
Its know this Guru Ji is more stricter, Maybe because he believes its gone out of hand, or members and teachers have “corrupted” the teachings…
I also believe cultural clash does occur, I believe regulations is hard to do (like teachers within the group abuse their power) just like in all religious, govt, social heads who may abuse their power…
Btw I know someone who is a RSSB and they smoke, they have also met the head of RSSB when they were at the Dera and they did not say anything… They advised against it but allowed them in the end to make their own choice…
Everyones different, everyones interaction is different.
Everyones view on concept of god is very different…
I like Brahman concept, A supreme cosmic spirit…
you can tear, attack what i said… but doesn’t matter you all had your say in countless debating over their bad their not bad….

Mantra SAY:
“Dera/Ashram is a ancient community thing.”
— It ain’t all THAT ancient. Its only been around since Jaimal had a little hut, and then Sawan turned it into many more huts.
“Its know this Guru Ji is more stricter”
— Yup… he’s probably very consticted, you know, very anal retentive.
“Maybe because he believes its gone out of hand”
— You mean, it’s gone out of HIS control? Oh poor little Gurinder boy.
“I know someone who is a RSSB and they smoke”
— And what kind of dope (ganga,charas) were they smoking?
“you all had your say”
— And you are certainy welcome to have your say too. Please tell us more.

Tao is the way the shabd the light the sound
Tao is the critic who has not gone inside
tao is the seeker of love but who does not give love
tao is the perpertrator of sincere intellectual refinement
tao has not initiated a single soul
tao has never fed anyone but himself
tao is not a charitable hospital
tao is not darshan from a realised soul filled with love
tao is about truth
tao is bitter because he has not experirienced bliss
like Fu’e Fu’e
Otherwise why is he so bitter.?
Come to Samoa -Tao and meditate on the Tao,shabd,logos
and be happy Tao-be happy -be natural-relax and be human
Your bitterness will go in proportion to the love you give,
I promise you I have seen two shabd teachers 30 cm away and they are just like you
no bullshit -just truth-just like like you Tao.
One difference-they dont have to type letters in the internet-
they write books-perhaps you have read Huzurs book The Master Answers,Thus Sait The Master-Huzur would agree with you -do not follow any master hastily, research, weigh up take your time,resist resist until you can npt resist any more.It is time gained not time lost.
Im allowed to share my experiences and say that NO one was forced to be initiated.If people blame the teacher -their problem -they could nt cut it so they skipped class.
I hve a beautiful peace of mind within me-like you and I have a human emotional ,imperfect machine alongside this plateaux of bliss.We all want,I have been on this path for over 25 years,-its
not easy but you keep going.Love is fuelled by love and as your namesake denotes Tao=the wind,the nameless,the shabd,the music of the spheres,the wairua, te mauri etc-so why Tao are you so filled
with insulting language.Ruhani Satsangis can get re intiated by Baba Ji just as many other “satsangis” have-go ahead Know thyself by thyself believe not at all what others may say.
By the way Kirpal Singh was not given permission to initiate anyone-all you haters of RSSB and Charan Singh etc I feel so sorry for you.So jealous of dera,so envious of all th 2.5 million “mentally ill” satsangis just like you with exactly the same problems-welcome to a NEW BIRTH-after a painful death perhaps
perhaps you white middle class haters of Baba Ji etc will be reborn as delhi street children not far from Pusa Rd -where Baba Ji may extend his love and give you Tao darshan.Radha Soami bro.alofa

http://www.jainpushp.org/forgiveness.htm
OR, well, maybe
go with this Mr. TAo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEQXIDbz6Oo&feature=related

Thanks kindly to GRNose for the Jain link.
And actually, I am already very familiar and also quite fond of the Jain spirit and view. And in fact, I have known some very wonderful and wise Jains, and which, if you are interested in the real essence of Jain spirituality, you may learn more about that here:
http://www.dadashri.org/Dadashri4.html
http://www.dadabhagwan.org/akram-vignan.html
http://www.dadabhagwan.org/bhagwan-realization.html
http://www.dadabhagwan.org/about-us/bliss-spreading-organization.html
http://www.dadabhagwan.org/moksha-sitemap.html
—————————————-
Dadashri.org Main Index:
http://www.dadashri.org/Dadashri4.html
Dadabhagwan.org Main Index:
http://www.dadabhagwan.org/moksha-sitemap.html
—————————————-
About Pratikraman:
http://www.dadashri.org/pratikraman.html
http://www.dadashri.org/pratikraman2.html

Richard Fu’e Fu’e wrote:
“Tao is the critic who has not gone inside”
— You virtually nothing about me. You know not where I have gone, or whaer I am at. I am already deeper inside than you will ever know.
“tao is the seeker of love but who does not give love”
— I am not a “seeker” of love or a seeker of anything. I am not like you. I am not seeking anything. And love cannot be sought. If you had any real wisdom, you would know that.
“tao has not initiated a single soul”
— Wrong again. You do not know about me, or about who my students are, or who or how many I have inititated, or not inititated. You know nothing about me or my spiritual life and reality. You are just another typical satsangi follower. Thats fine for you, but it does not make you informed about me.
“tao has never fed anyone but himself”
— Wrong again. As a matter of fact, I myself have actually fed and given food and clothingto many thousands of people. – Literally. And I, as well as other Doctors in my family, have also provided medical care to many many thousands of people in the US and other countries. And I myself have also fed hundreds of people/seekers spiritually. So again, you make false and unfounded assertions and statements that have no basis in real fact or truth. That is dishonest of you.
“tao is not a charitable hospital”
— That is correct, I am NOT a “hospital”… I am an awakened human being. But I have helped to build several hospitals, and I am a Naturopathic Doctor, and I also come from 4 generations of very renowned and respected Medical Doctors who were each also great servants of humanity in the field of Medicine. So again, your statement is faulty.
“tao is not darshan from a realised soul”
— You don’t know anything about me, or about my state of Realization. I am an awakened realized being. Nothing you can say can ever alter or diminsh that fact and reality. Your shallow words and your erroneous presumptions about me are less even than like smoke in the wind.
“tao is bitter because he has not experirienced bliss like Fu’e Fu’e”
— As far as I can see, as much as is evident in the words that you write, you know nothing about genuine bliss. And you also know nothing about me, or about what I have experienced, or about my state of consciousness. The fact that you think and assume that I am “bitter”, proves that.
“why is he so bitter.?”
— I am not “bitter” at all, I have no reason to be bitter about anything. If you think I am bitter about RS, then you are grossly mistaken. I couldn’t care less about RS. However, the question really is: Why are you so presumptious when you are so uninformed, and therfore so grossly mistaken? It’s likely to be because, since you are a loyal RS satsangi and follower, that you presume to somehow know about others who are critical of RS. So it’s your way of trying to cast shadows and aspersions upon those like myself who are critical of your kind of empty guru-cult dogma, and your blind faith in it. But all you really do, is to make more of a fool of yourself when you say things that are not founded in fact.
“meditate on the Tao,shabd,logos
and be happy Tao-be happy -be natural-relax and be human”
— The TAO is not “shabd,logos”. And I certainly don’t need to “be happy” or to “relax”. I abide naturaly in the self-perfected state of ‘instant presence’ – primordial awareness.
“Your bitterness will go in proportion to the love you give”
— I have no “bitterness”, and I love cannot ever be given. The bitterness that you imagine is really your own because you are the one who imagines it, and its probably because of your hang-up in that you don’t like other people criticising RS, so underneath it all, you are bitter about that. Thats why you falsely imagine bitterness in others. But its really your own bitterness that you are projecting onto others. Go see a therapist. They will tell you the very same thing. You need to work on your own bitterness, and not project it outwardly onto others like myself
“I promise you I have seen two shabd teachers 30 cm away and they are just like you … just like like you Tao.”
— No. They are not like me. First of all, I am not a “shabd teacher”. And secondly, I am not at all like these people that you are referring to. I don’t do what they do or believe what they believe. And I don’t play roles.
“they dont have to type letters in the internet”
— I don’t “have” to do anything. I do whatever I choose to do because I am free to do as I please. I don’t have mental limitations or contrived restrictions like you or others apparently do.
“they write books-perhaps you have read Huzurs book The Master Answers,Thus Sait The Master”
— I have read all the RS books. But so what? I am NOT impressed. Not impresed at all. I myself also have written books and papers as well. And I can say, in all honesty, that what I write is far more meaningful and more insightful and more applicable than the bulk of RS dogma that “they” write.
“Huzur would agree with you”
— I don’t know if thats so true. I don’t think you know what the hell you are talking about. I had spoken to him in private on several occasions over the years, and he and I did NOT always agree. He also clearly lacked understanding and experience in some particular areas, and I also did not agree with him with regard to some other issues. Also, he was a lawyer and the an administrator of an organization, he was not a spiritually enlightened Sage as some naive folks seem to have imagined.
“take your time,resist resist until you can npt resist any more.”
— I don’t need to “take time”. I have devoted almost 50 years to spiritual pursuit and sadhana and experience. Nor do I need to “resist”, nor am I resisting anything. As I said before, I am into abiding in the self-perfected state of ‘instant presence’. I don’t need your false assumptions and contrived nonsense.
“my experiences … say that NO one was forced to be initiated.”
— That is correct, no one is “forced”. But so what? That does not prove anything. That does not mean that the dogma and the issues of Santmat and the RS cult cannot be questioned or criticised. Your point is a lame defense.
“If people blame the teacher -their problem -they could nt cut it”
— That is not necessariy true. Sometimes it is the fault of the teacher and what the teacher teaches, ans sometimes it is the fault of the student. It works both ways. So your point is again another lame defense.
“I have a human emotional, imperfect machine alongside this plateaux of bliss.”
— I would not say that the human body-mind is “imperfect”. And I simply don’t know what your supposed “plateaux of bliss” is, or if it is at all.
“I have been on this path for over 25 years,-its not easy but you keep going.”
— You mean that YOU “keep going”. But jst because YOU keep going, does not mean that doing so is either wise or reasonable. It may or may not be. That is your choice. It has nothing to do with others.
“as your namesake denotes Tao=the wind,the nameless,the shabd,the music of the spheres,”
— TAO does not mean “the wind”, or “the nameless”, or “the shabd”, or “the music of the spheres”. The term “TAO” is not any of those notions. Its not may namesake either. It is just an ID for use on this blog forum, and nothing more significant than that. So don’t try to put some trip on me realted to the term TAO.
“so why Tao are you so filled with insulting language.”
— I generally do not use so-called “insulting language”. So for you to say “filled with insuting language” is quite erroneous and incorrect. Once in a while I use certain terms to make a point or to draw attention to something. Its really none of your concern. I am not subject to your approval. And in this case, your assertion is extremely shallow at best.
“Ruhani Satsangis can get re intiated by Baba Ji just as many other “satsangis” have-go ahead”
— This is another indication that you are not well informed or aware of where I am at. I am not a “Ruhani Satsangi” and never have been. I was an initiate of Charan Singh of the Radha Soami Mat. No do I wish to or need to get “re-initiated” by anyone. I have absolutely no need to do so, nor any interest in doing such things. So it’s quite clear to me that due to your ack of insight and factual knowledge, you are really ‘barking up the wrong tree’ here.
“Know thyself by thyself believe not at all what others may say.”
— Then you should practice this – what you preach, insteading of preaching about it.
“Kirpal Singh was not given permission to initiate anyone-all you haters of RSSB and Charan Singh etc I feel so sorry for you.”
— I am not a Kirpal follower, nor have I ever been. I care not what “permission” he had or did not have. That issue is totally irrelevant to me. And fyi, I also do not “hate” the RSSB or Charan Singh. But I do “feel sorry” for people like you who don’t know what the hell they are babbling and fussing about.
“So jealous of dera, so envious of all th 2.5 million “mentally ill” satsangis just like you with exactly the same problems”
— I don’t know about anyone else, but I have no such jealously of the Dera. I have been there many times. I have no reason to be “jealous” of the place or the RSSB. I am also not “envious” of millions of satsangis. However, these satsangis and their problems are definitely NOT “just like” me at all. Not like me at all. But for you to think so, shows just how very mistaken and ignorant you are.
“perhaps you white middle class haters of Baba Ji etc will be reborn as delhi street children not far from Pusa Rd”
— First of all, I am NOT a “white middle class”. Second, I am not a “hater” of your so-called “Baba Ji”. And third, I have been to and stayed at the RS complex at Pusa Road many times, and nor do I have any need to worry about being “reborn” there. I have lived all over India as a sadhu for years. I have paid my dues there. There is no possiblity of being “reborn” there. That is just a silly notion put forth by someone who has yet to be awakened.
“Baba Ji may extend his love and give you Tao darshan.”
— I am not intertested in this so-called “Baba Ji”, or in anything to do with him. He is absoutley nobody to me. He is merely just another ordinary Indian guy who just happens to be the appointed head of a religious cult. Nothing more. But he would certainly benefit from coming to meet me, if he but had the awareness of me and and the good sense and intelligence to do so.
“Radha Soami bro.”
— Thanks, but “Radha Soami” is really just another ritual greeting or parting, just like any other of many similar phrases. It is used by RS satsangis, but I myself don’t give it any special significance.
The next time you get the urge to make a bunch of unfounded or mistaken or nonsense assertions about someone such as myself, I would advise you to think about what it is that you are actually saying and asserting before you do. Otherwise, you are only talking a load of rubbish.
Good luck.

Tao has done nothing. For we are not aware of what he has done. Our awareness hasn’t gotten the chance to know exactly what Tao has done.
Tao, by all means, could very well be Satan himself, I myself could, in your opinions, be Satan.
Nobody is anything. We are all fools to believe the words of others. We are also fools to not believe in the words of others.
It’s all your experience. Tao can say this and that, and I can say this and that, but ignore both of us and make your own conclusions.
Forget OSHO forget OSHO, he says god never existed, FORGET THE DEMONS FOR GOD’S SAKE THE DEMONS ARE RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU THEY ARE TRYING TO TELL YOU that this is this and that is that, MAKE YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.
This is all my opinion, so I am not forcing it, I’m just leaving up to the readers to decide whether they believe words of random people or their own direct experience.
How do you know that Tao isn’t Satan’s agent? Tao may not know but he could be an agent of the negative power, like David Lane was and still is after his new plastic surgery.
I myself don’t know anything. I haven’t meditated that far yet in Sant Mat. But all I know is that we know nothing until we try it ourselves and prove to ourselves that the theory or belief is wrong or right. Sant Mat is the highest of all Theories because of what it claims we all inherited by being born humans. Satan doesn’t want you to know your inheritance because you really do have a golden opportunity to inherit it all.
You can Say Sant Mat is for gullible people, But we will not believe you for we know that Sant Mat says that your type of personality shows signs of being an agent of the negative power.

radha soami is a path to reach the guru by meditiate

first radha soami to all
i m from sydney
main dasna chahunda ha ki mainu kyee lok(friends)
mainu es karke nai like karde kyunki main radha soami ha oh radha soami baare bhut galat ate use less word use karde han par mainu ohna de khi kise v gal da koi farak nai painda.babaji v satsang vich eh hi kehnde a k jina koi marji gallan kde us val tyan na do.satsang vich v dsia janda hai ki ik haathi zameen te pia khand da dana nai kha sakda jekar oh khaan d koshish krega ta usde muh vich mitti chlee javegi par ik chhoti jehi kiri us khand de dane da anand lai sakdi hai.mera kehan da matlab eh hai k saanu hamesha man niva rakhna chahida hai hankaar ik din bande nu khaa janda hai.asi jine marzi ameer kyu na hoyiye par saanu hameha hi pyaar naal bolna chahida hai agle da man v apne aap hi neeva ho jauga.
RADHA SOAMI G

first radha soami to all
i m from sydney
main dasna chahunda ha ki mainu kyee lok(friends)
mainu es karke nai like karde kyunki main radha soami ha oh radha soami baare bhut galat ate use less word use karde han par mainu ohna de khi kise v gal da koi farak nai painda.babaji v satsang vich eh hi kehnde a k jina koi marji gallan kde us val tyan na do.satsang vich v dsia janda hai ki ik haathi zameen te pia khand da dana nai kha sakda jekar oh khaan d koshish krega ta usde muh vich mitti chlee javegi par ik chhoti jehi kiri us khand de dane da anand lai sakdi hai.mera kehan da matlab eh hai k saanu hamesha man niva rakhna chahida hai hankaar ik din bande nu khaa janda hai.asi jine marzi ameer kyu na hoyiye par saanu hameha hi pyaar naal bolna chahida hai agle da man v apne aap hi neeva ho jauga.
RADHA SOAMI G

To: MANJIT SINGH WARRAICH
Hey dimiwit, this Blog forum is all in ENGISH… can’t you see that?
What do you think you are doing? Are you stupid?
Please post your comments in English so that others (who cannot read Punjabi or Hindi) can actually read and understand them.
It’s very rude and unfair to others to post comments on an English language Blog in a language that most of us here cannot translate or understand.
Unfortunately, this is just another example of what I mean about the stupidity and foolishness that is exhibited by so many of these Radha Soami cult members.
And I hope that Brian deletes these posts of yours until you start writing them in proper English.
So please RE-WRITE your previous comments, and write them in the English language the next time as well.

मंजीत सिंह ,
आप एक मूर्ख मूर्ख है . आप एक मंद मूर्ख है . कृपया अपने सिर को एक जाने की छड़ी और फिर फ्लश शौचालय है .

पुरातन का पुनरुद्धार
इतिहास है क्योंकि Dominator संस्कृति को समाप्त होने के कारण मानव प्रजाति को एक अंधी गली , और अपरिहार्य chaostrophie दृष्टिकोण के रूप में , लोगों की तलाश के उत्तर और रूपकों . हर बार जब कोई संस्कृति में परेशानी हो जाता है निर्मोक स्वयं पीठ में पिछले तलाश के अंतिम क्षण समझदार कभी यह जानता था . समझदार और अंतिम क्षण था पर जानता था कि हम कभी अफ्रीका के मैदानी इलाकों में 15000 साल पहले भीषण पालना सींग कुकुरमुत्ता देवी के महान … इतिहास से पहले , सेनाओं खड़े होने से पहले , गुलामी से पहले और संपत्ति है , और युद्ध से पहले और एकेश्वरवाद ध्वन्यात्मक वर्णमाला से पहले से पहले , के पहले .
और यह भविष्य में ले रहा है , जहां हमें विश्वास है क्योंकि गुप्त बीसवीं सदी के आधुनिकता नहीं है , बीसवीं सदी के गुप्त विश्वास है यादों के लिए पुरातन , यादों के लिए paleolithic है , और हमें देता है कि शरीर छिदाने , सार expressionism , अतियथार्थवाद , जाज़ , रॉक – n – रोल और आपदा सिद्धांत है . 20 वीं सदी के मन nostalgic के लिए स्वर्ग है कि एक बार अस्तित्व पर कुकुरमुत्ता dotted अफ्रीका के मैदानी इलाकों जहां संयंत्र के मानव सिम्बियोसिस हुई है कि हमें बाहर खींच पशु के शरीर में और उपकरण का प्रयोग कर के , संस्कृति बनाने , कल्पना की तलाश है कि प्राणी हम कर रहे हैं . और इस मामले में क्यों करता है ? क्योंकि यह पता चलता है कि यह मामलों के उपाय और फिर है कि भविष्य में आगे की ओर पलायन पिछले . यह क्या मतलब है मनोदैहिक अनुभव है . इसके द्वार के बाहर एक और इतिहास में wiring के तहत बोर्ड में अनंत काल है . और इस कारण मैं तुम क्या समझते हैं तो यह इस समुदाय की मान्यता यह है कि यह बेहतर होगा कि इस समुदाय को एक साथ करने में सक्षम बनाने के लिए खुद को उड़ान hyperspace क्योंकि हम क्या जरूरत है एक नया मिथक , कि हम क्या आवश्यकता है एक नई कहानी सच है कि हमें बताता है जहां हम ब्रह्मांड में जा रहा है और सच है कि कहानी यह है कि एक उत्पाद है अहं की विकृति , जब psilocybin है और नियमित रूप से भाग के मानव का अनुभव है अहं के दमन और supression का अर्थ है अहं की हार के dominators , materialists , उत्पाद peddlers . Psychedelics वापसी करने के लिए हमें स्वयं के मूल्य के भीतरी , के महत्व को तत्काल की भावना का अनुभव है — और कोई नहीं बेच सकते हैं कि आपको कोई नहीं खरीद सकते हैं और इसे आप से है , इसलिए Dominator संस्कृति में रुचि नहीं है महसूस की उपस्थिति के तत्काल अनुभव , लेकिन क्या मानती है कि इस समुदाय के साथ है . और हम तोड़ के रूप में सिली के मिथकों विज्ञान , और शिशु obsessions के बाजार के माध्यम से हम क्या पता मनोदैहिक अनुभव यह है कि शरीर में है . है , शरीर में हैं Niagras के सौंदर्य , विदेशी सौंदर्य , कि विदेशी आयामों का हिस्सा हैं स्वयं के , जीवन का सबसे अमीर का हिस्सा है . मैं सोचता हूँ कि कब्र की जा रही को बिना किसी तरह का अनुभव करने जा रही मनोदैहिक के गंभीर होने के बिना कभी सेक्स है . इसका अर्थ यह है कि आप सूची से बाहर क्या यह कभी नहीं होता है . यह रहस्य है और शरीर में जिस तरह से काम करता है शरीर में ही प्रकृति .
क्या अर्थ है पुनरुद्धार के पुराने shamanism , ecstacy , orgiastic कामुकता , और हार के तीन लोगों की दुश्मन हैं . और तीन लोगों की दुश्मन हैं आधिपत्य , एकपत्नीत्व और एकरसता है ! और यदि आपको उन पर चलने के पसीने लोगों dominators आपके पास है , क्योंकि इसका अर्थ यह है कि आपके सभी reconnected मिल रहा है , और इसे प्राप्त करने का अर्थ है कि सभी reconnected लाने के विचार अलग separateness और आत्म fetish परिभाषा के माध्यम से बात की है . इसका अर्थ है कि फैशन के दोहन में सभी से जुड़े Gaian मस्तिष्क , मन और Gaian है कि हम क्या कर रहे हैं कॉल करने के मनोदैहिक अनुभव है . इसका एक अनुभव के रहने वाले तथ्य के साधन के ग्रह है . और बिना अनुभव है कि हम घूमना फर्जी विचारधाराओं के जंगल में एक है . लेकिन अनुभव के साथ कि इस कंपास का स्वयं सेट किया जा सकता है , और यह भी कि इस विचार के हैं ; figuring से बाहर कैसे पुनर्स्थापित करने के लिए स्वयं के माध्यम से समुदाय के कंपास , नृत्य के माध्यम से खुश हैं , के माध्यम से psychedelics , कामुकता , खुफिया , खुफिया . यह वही है जो हमें पास बनाने के लिए आगे की ओर पलायन को hyperspace .

Dear Brian,
Please delete nothing (other than the spam which you silently have chosen to omit). The crap in languages I cannot read just seems to be like much of the crap that is written in English here on your blog. It just seems that crap is crap is crap – no matter what its language.
Robert Paul Howard

Robert, I’m not bothered much when someone writes a comment in another language. It perplexes me, but then I’m perplexed by lots of things. If someone else can get some meaning from it, and it isn’t an ad for penis enlargement (not that I’d know), what the heck?
And I’ve had the same thought as you about writings in English. Sometimes I don’t understand what someone is saying, even though I can understand the separate words. However, I assume that others get more meaning out of the writing than I do.

Από το Brian δεν μυαλό ξένων γλωσσών για το blog του, νομίζω ότι θα ξεκινήσουν την επικοινωνία στα ελληνικά. Η γλώσσα αυτή είναι ιδιαίτερα καλή για έκφρασης των φιλοσοφικών ζητημάτων και υπάρχει λιγότερη αμφισημία. Οι χρήστες μπορούν να χρησιμοποιούν τη γλώσσα της επιλογής όπως ρωσικά, σλοβακικά, σουαχίλι και μανταρινιές κινεζικά.

Brian non mente lingue straniere sul suo blog, in modo quindi penso che dovremmo iniziare a comunicare in italiano. La lingua italiana è molto buona per l’espressione di sentimenti, e non vi è meno ambiguo e più passione.
بريان لا يوجد مانع لغات أجنبية على بلدة بلوق ، حتى ذلك الحين اعتقد اننا ينبغي ان يبدأ الاتصال باللغه العربية. اللغة العربية هي جيدة جدا للتعبير عن المشاعر الخفيه ، وهناك ما هو اكثر من اقل من الصقل والغموض
Brian n’a pas l’esprit des langues étrangères sur son blog, alors je pense que nous devrions commencer à communiquer en français. La langue française est très bon pour l’expression de sentiments subtils, et il ya plus de raffinement et moins d’ambiguïté.
Брайан не виду иностранных языков на своем блоге, так что я думаю, мы должны начать общаться на русском языке. Русский язык очень подходит для выражения тонких чувств, и это еще не все доработки и менее двусмысленность.
Brian har inget emot främmande språk på sin blogg, så tror jag att vi borde börja kommunicera på svenska. Det svenska språket är mycket bra för uttrycket av subtila känslor, och det finns mer förfinade och mindre tvetydig.
Brian no le importa las lenguas extranjeras en su blog, así que creo que deberíamos comenzar a comunicarse en español. El idioma español es muy bueno para la expresión de sentimientos sutiles, y hay más refinamiento y menos ambigüedad.
Brian nicht Verstand Fremdsprachen in seinem Blog, so dass ich dann denke, wir sollten beginnen, die Kommunikation in deutscher Sprache. Die deutsche Sprache ist sehr gut für den Ausdruck von subtilen Gefühle, und es gibt mehr Raffinesse und weniger Mehrdeutigkeit.
Шипка не се има предвид, чужди езици, по своя блог, така че после Мисля, ние трябва да започне комуникация в Bugarian. На български език е много добър за изразяване на фините усещания, и има повече и по-малко уточнение неопределеност.
ताओ ब्रायन नहीं है पर उसके मन में विदेशी भाषाओं के ब्लॉग इसलिए मैं सोचता हूँ कि हम शुरू करने के लिए हिन्दी में होना चाहिए यह हिन्दी भाषा में बहुत अच्छी है व्यक्त सूक्ष्म दार्शनिक और अधिक शोधन और कम अस्पष्टता है ताओ

tAo wrote:
To: MANJIT SINGH WARRAICH
“Hey dimiwit, this Blog forum is all in ENGLISH… can’t you see that?
What do you think you are doing? Are you stupid?”
–You have no idea how hard I laughed at this comment.
Reminds me of Laurel and Hardy in the “Piano Movers” about these two dimwits attempting to get a piano up a long flight of stairs and into a house. By the time they were finished, the piano and the house were wrecked. Super funny. Gotta rent it again sometime if it’s on CD.

hi radhasoami to all?
i accidentaly come to this site while surfing net i fail to understand what this site is?
those who belive should not visit such sites and give reply. i m sorry this is my personal opinion u may or may not follow it.

sanjay, why do you feel that those who believe shouldn’t visit web sites where people question those beliefs?
Is faith so shaky that a question can destroy it? Shouldn’t the believer test his or her faith against questioners rather than remaining blind to other ways of looking at reality?
I don’t see how sticking one’s head in the sand gets a person closer to a clear vision of what life is all about. But that’s just me. I realize that others have the view that blinders are better than a wider perspective.

A big DITTO to Brian’s last comment.

“Give me the man who doubts. He is better off than the one who is living in an illusion of faith.”
Guess who said this earlier this year – Gurinder. He tries to get people to pull their heads out of the sand, but mostly people prefer to use Sant Mat as a comfortable religion. (which is easy to do).

He (Gurinder) may try to APPEAR as if he is trying to get people to pull their heads out of the sand, but then he goes and puts their heads right back into some more of the same old “sand” of sant mat dogma and guru-cultism.
So whatever he says is all bullshit and hypocrisy. It’s what he DOES that matters… not what he says. And so I would not even bother paying attention to anything that a stupid fraudulent fool like him says.

I visited this site first time and agree with the purpose of the site . Some beautiful thoughts. Love to all of you.

In the morning breeze, your scent, whoever inhaled
A close friend these familiar words, in his ear hailed;
O King of Goodness, glance at this beggar’s state
Of beggars and kings this ear heard many tales, quite detailed.
With this aromatic wine, I satisfy my soul’s appetite
I’ve seen robe wearing priests that many deceptions trailed.
God’s secrets that the godly man silently kept
How in the world the wine-seller so clearly unveiled?
O God where is the one who knows and sees
To open up the secrets that in my heart are jailed.
It was not fair to punish my godly heart
With abuse, my heart bitterly cried and wailed.
If I was deprived in my longing, say naught
Kindness of fate from this hardship, none bailed.
Come bring me wine, my love cries out loud
Heard it from ourselves, whoever our tale detailed.
This is not the first time we covertly drink the wine
Master of the tavern caught us in the act each time we exhaled.
This is not a first for drinking to the song of the harp
Many turns the Wheel of Fate this familiar turn scaled.
Advice of the wise comes from a deep goodness within
Beside the one who understood, even heavenly bliss paled.
Hafiz in duty the ocean of prayer sailed
Regardless of if his prayer was granted or failed.

The comments about leadership of RSSBA being narrow minded are somewhat deserved. They do tend to be strong in their beliefs, and a bit too dogmatic with the party line. That is not a bad thing, FOR THEM. To their credit, they neither charge a cent nor proseletize. You will never see a RSSBA ad in the paper or a tythe request.
Your protests hold a lot of bitterness. There is a practice called Pratikaram you may want to try. Just to yourself, bring the offensive RSSBA things to mind, and try to see the people and events as pure souls, and also try to yourself, let go enough to acknowledge that maybe you have not always been the victim/recipient of evil. Good luck. OM Shanti.

by the way what RSSBA STANDS FOR IN THIS COMMENT

I believe that RSSBA probably means RSSB of America.

i went through whole of the site and i believe that it all depends upon one’s perception of understanding the things and most important is that how much you have expolored yourself.because their are things which takes time for us to understand and we can understand them only when we widen our horizons.and those who are blaming radha soami for not attaining the bliss, my friends either you are not perceiving the teaching correctly or you are not working hard on it.

…or that “the teaching” is wrong in and of itself.
Robert Paul Howard

Manpreet,
You’re just another lame-brain who doesn’t know diddly-squat about the issues here.
For instance, for you to say “their are things which takes time for us to understand and we can understand them only when we widen our horizons”, clearly shows that you simply have NOT read much, if anything on this site.
Many here (starting with the author/founder of this blog), have taken a hell of alot of time (30+ years each) to research and test-drive RS, and we definitely DO understand (and a hell of a lot more than you do), and our “horizons” (and our collective experience) are far greater and far wider than your pitifly narrow and ignorant little view. That is quite evident in your incredibly ignorant assertion that we “are not working hard on it”.
So this all makes you just another presumptious little RS snot, with no real knowledge, experience, or wisdom to back you up.
Also, no one is “blaming radha soami for not attaining the bliss”. Bliss is an individual matter. We are blaming radha soami for selling its followers a fake guru and a phony bill of goods, and the followers for being fools and not being discriminating.
It is YOU who “are not perceiving the teaching correctly”, and it is YOU who are not perceiving clearly the arguements and facts that have been put forth on this site.
If you actually have something substantial and credible to offer us in the way of evidence or proof that RS and its guru is what it claims to be and to do, then lets see it. Otherwise, you are just another stupid blind RS sychophant coming here to tout the same old lame-ass dogma.
So lets hear what you have to say, if you have anything real to say in defense of RS.
(actually, you are probably just another cheap hit-and-run poster, who hasn’t got the guts to hang around long enough to engage in any intelligent dialog)

Tao,
you have left a long trail of evidence on this site for any sober and sane person to see clearly – that it doesn’t require intelligence to hurl abuse or to strut your John Wayne-George Bush attitude.
You and your sister Tucson’s postings say nothing so well.
mariska hargitay

Brad,
What’s wrong with John Wayne?
You don’t like his movie image of being a stand-up guy in the face of adversity? He was a symbol of character and strength who wouldn’t back down to challenges as you have done to most of those placed before you on this blog.
We need more like him and fewer like you.

Ahhh… poor little Brady boy is back. Well I guess it’s because his RS meditation isn’t going so well for him these days. And he seems so terribly uptight about American culture and the American people, and also so very lacking in reason and discriminative wisdom and the ability to engage in intelligent critical thinking.
However… I have a possible solution for what ails him:
If he would simply go and listen to a streaming internet radio program (via the following links), for about 3 to 4 hours each day or evening (during the weekdays), and do this for a few weeks stretch or more, then he actually may be able to gain some intelligent perspective and thus actually become a truly informed and educated individual… instead of the whiney little snot with his head stuck up his rather ignorant ass, that he is at the present time.
Here is the main Infowars.com homepage:
http://www.infowars.com
And here is the Infowars.com internet radio program Listening Page (which gives different media player options etc):
http://www.infowars.com/listen.html
This excellent program runs LIVE from 11am to 2pm Central Time (USA), and then it repeats again every 4 hours – up until the following day’s next live show. (So you can actually tune in ANYTIME during the day or night that is convienent for you.) (Adjust the timing for your local time zone)
I highly recommend listening to this most informative internet radio program (and the Infowars sites) to all the other Churchless readers, if they are not already doing so.
Also some Infowars additional sister sites:
http://www.prisonplanet.com
http://martiallaw911.info
http://www.prisonplanet.tv
So, Listen… and Learn

Dear Sisters Tao and Tucson
Didnt anyone tell you John Wayne (JW) aint so cool anymore. Severe piles I think, or was it just a beeg carrot.
But then again the yanks would never admit they were wrong. They’d just keep on walking bow-legged into the sunset, ‘n spittin into the sand.
Yeah its cool stinkn the place up and being the town cowboy to kickass. Sense and sensibility was never part of the equation.
Its all about how much you can copy-paste n challenge to a brute force showdown.
I read the posts from Nick in the UK. You all got your asses whipped but good.
Now that he’s outa town you can try strut your stuff, but its all quite trifling in comparison.
You must concede the more eloquent role to your unpastor. He’s the best of you sorry lot.
I stop by here periodically for a good laugh.
Imagine two hairy JW sisters trying to squeeze their swollen feet into that delicate glass slipper.
Its a hoot.

Brad said (showing his sophomoric side):
“Didnt anyone tell you John Wayne (JW) aint so cool anymore. Severe piles I think, or was it just a beeg carrot.”
–John Wayne’s problem was lung cancer. He died of it decades ago. I knew the man because his house was next door to a girlfriend’s of mine in
Balboa (near Newport Beach). He invited us for a spin on his yacht. Nice guy. Down to earth and courageous, like some of his characters, in the face of his disease. True Grit indeed.

It sounds like Brad is gay. In fact, I’d even bet on it.
Only flaming gay dudes feel the need to challenge other guy’s manhood by calling them “sisters”.
You can come out of your closet now Brady-boy. Tucson and I aren’t exactly what you would call Liberals, but I’m sure we won’t mind that you are just a poor frustrated little fag because your balls have been castrated.
And oh btw little Brad, you clearly don’t know shit from shinola when it comes to old John Wayne… or about “yanks” either.
And the funny thing is, I too met the man. My uncle, who was a renowned medical doctor, was good personal friends with John Wayne. In fact, John Wayne even came to visit my uncle (who right lived next-door to us when I was young), and we all went over to meet him and hang out with him. He was an awfully nice guy, and a pillar of strength and virtue (as was my uncle as well).
A puny little fag like Brad could never even approach the kind of honorable man that John Wayne was.
In fact Brad, you’re nothing but an awfully pathetic excuse for an RS satsangi even, and one who hates Americans just because they are Americans, and who especially hates sraight(hetrosexual) American guys who (unlike you) do have some balls.
And btw little fag-boy Brad, the only reason you (and the rest of Europe and Africa) aren’t now speaking German (down there in South Africa) under the old Third Reich, is because us Americans had the strength and the guts to “keep on walking bow-legged into the sunset, ‘n spittin into the sand” until we kicked their ass.
And your rather faggy “sense and sensibility” was definitely never part of the equation.
As for “the posts from Nick in the UK”… well you apparently didn’t read right, because “Nick” (another little fag punk like yourself) got his, shall we say, philosophical ass whipped real damn bad.
And then he, like all the rest of the blowhard faggots that have passed through here, ran “outa town” with his tail under his but.
And just like Nick, your lame RS rhetoric is indeed “all quite trifling in comparison”.
Also, fyi, I don’t subscribe to “pastors”… or un-pastors. This Blog is a place for open-minded folks, not for bigots, racists, hypocrites, and bad-vibe dudes like you.
And one more thing littel fag-boy Brad…
In case you did not know it, you are in direct violation of the current Radha Soami leader/master’s orders and instructions (published since the late 1990s). Namely, that ALL RSSB satsangis are to totally refrain from any and all posting of anything about Santmat or RS anywhere on the internet… and that includes e-mails, bulletin-board lists, newsgrops, discussion groups, chat-rooms, etc etc. These orders were published and diseminated to all RS satsangis in the USA and world-wide. They were published in print in all the USA RS newsletters prior to 2000. By coming to this blog-forum and debating and preaching Santmat/RS, you are violating the RSSB masters direct instructions and orders. These orders have thus far not been recinded. So either you are either (A)ignorant of these orders, or (B) you are a hypocrite because you are NOT following YOUR RS guru’s direct instructions to refrain from the posting of anything or any discussions about Santmat/RS on the Internet. So anything that you have said here that is related to RS (and that’s just about everything) is in complete VIOLATION of the current RS master’s instructions given and published to all satsangis.
Just thought I’d let you know this… and that clearly, you are a wayward hypocrite satsangi, and you have been so right from your first posting here.
The rest of us don’t claim to be loyal RS satsangi followers, so we don’t comply with such ridiculous cult mind-contol nonsense that is issued by fraudulent authoriatrian cult-gurus such as current one at the RSSB.

Hey sister Tucson,
As an elder brother I must tell you that your insecurity about your own belief systems are so self evident in your writing style.
You and your sister Tao seem hell bent on forcing your fat hairy feet into the glass slipper of spirituality, that its both obscene and funny all at once.
You should ask Brian to setup a Facebook group for you folk, so you can post a photograph of yourself and your sister Tao. The entertainment value alone, will be priceless.
Of course I can understand that you dont want folk like Nick and I, or anyone with anti-views to your own, to watch this grotesque foot-in-the-slipper production.
So you make vain attempts at insulting us and waving RSSB rules that dont exist. You are so obviously out of the loop.
Its such fun watching your faces blotch red as you bluster and huff and puff sweet nothings.
And its great for passersby to see your engagement style, and your choice of antiquated John Wayne-George Bush role models.
Your associations too, speak volumes.
And yes, no matter how much you try – you remain a miserable follower of your more eloquent unpastor. And silly sister Tucson. The term unpastor was coined by Brian himself.
Also, I wouldnt wave that US flag too high. Its nothing to be proud of. Try scratching around in that dark closet of yours for that Humane Flag, or the flag of the Sincere Seeker. Its a long shot I know.
Oh by the way… even though your uncle may not be renowned anymore, Im sure his staff could prescribe a treatment for those haemorrhoids of yours.
Chat soon.

Hey sister Tucson
spelling 101….
butt is spelt with two t’s
two T’s like Tucson & Tao
two like 2 peas in a pod. or like two pees in the wind.
So Ms haemorrhoids, chat soon

Brad, I think you get tAo and me mixed up. Check who has signed the various comments.
It seems tAo has touched a nerve.
Anyway, this conversation has descended into a realm that isn’t useful for anyone.

Dear tucson,
I agree. But why did you not address the same complaint to tAo some time before?
Robert Paul Howard

RPH,
Before when?
My last comment came after the most recent posts by Brad and tAo to which it applied.

This is for Brad, since he seems so very out of touch and pitifully ill-informed with regard to who is who and what is what on this site and in this comment forum.
Brad, you just don’t have a clue who I am or where I am at spiritually. And you apparently have not bothered to go back and read out of the archives. But there is quite a lot there to wade through, so I can’t completely fault you for not taking lots of time to go back and educate yourself about where I am coming from and where I am at (or where Tucson is at).
However, I may be willing to give you some general idea of what my spiritual views are, and also why I find your attitude here so ignorant and uninformed, so arrogant, so narrow-minded, and so dogmatic… that is if you ask me in a respectful manner like other fellows in this forum do.
Up to this point, you have taken a particularly derogatory and ridiculing attitude towards the others here (including Brian) who don’t subscribe to your rather uptight and dogmatic version of RS theology. And that is why you and your comments here have not been received very well.
In fact, ever since you appeared on this Blog forum, the quality of the dialog that you engender has steadily deterioated… all the way down to the low point that it is now.
Practically everything you have said regarding myself, or Tucson, or Brian, is so completely off the mark as to not even be within the ballpark. You haven’t got a clue as to where I abide spiritually or what my sadhana and realization has been. There has been nothing relevant or accurate in any of your rather antagonistic comments about any of us here.
So I agree with Tucson (and I had even been meaning to say this some time ago) when he says: “this conversation has descended into a realm that isn’t useful for anyone.” If you wish other people here to treat you with respect and tolerance, then you must do the same. But you have not. Not even from the beginning. You came here with the obvious intent to challenge us regarding RS, and to make trouble. But as I said in my previous post, by doing so, you are in diect violation of the current RSSB master’s orders prohibiting all RS satsangis from discussing Santmat on the internet. So you obviously don’t respect the RS master’s wishes either.
So Brad, all of this adds up to your being nothing more than a shallow and ill-informed hypocrite.
If your intent here was, or is sincere, then you would have surely shown that by now. So far, yor track record is pretty bad.
Before I go, I will again reiterate that you clearly do not have any understanding of where I am at spiritually, or the facts, the whys and the wherefores of my philosphical views. The worst thing you can do is to make false and unfounded assertions about the spirituality of others, especially when you know nothing about them. So it wold behoove you to educate yourself before jumping to such ignorant and derogatory conclusions about people you know nothing about.
And also btw, and fyi, I have admitted many times (and everyone here knows) that I do occasionally make typos, but that does not reflect on my spelling skills or level of education whatsoever. I type fairly fast and thus make frequent typing mistakes, and I don’t proof-read much. But this is no big fucking deal. However, for you to attempt to use very minor typos as a basis for personal criticism and ridicule, shows how pathtically desperate and eager you are to take any opportunity to disparage others (like myself) who don’t subscribe to your extremely narrow, intolerant, and unenlightened guru-CULT dogma mentality.
So far, your style here has been not much more than that of an RS internet troll. However I do hope you will be able to come to a bit more affable stance in this group… otherwise almost no one here is going to take you seriously.

Dear Sirs,
I was absent on this blog for several months for no specific reason but I was busy with my younger daughter’s admission to college. With her not so hard working attitude towards studies but of course an intelligent one, she scored 90%. I could have avoided my explanation.
I am loving it to be back to this blog. I am finding that the things are absolutely same. Exchange of views are being dealt with same tone. Of course, contents have changed.
I shall love to cast my specific views in a day or so.
With regards to one & all.

Hello Tao
I was reading your post with interest. For a few minutes I thought you may have written a post without swearing or defensively attacking someone.
Sorry for you, you never made it.
But dont worry… lots of space left on the internet for you to keep posting away.
Dear sister Tao (is that really your name?), i have been incredibly affable with you, regardless of your constant vitriol (check out the meaning at http://www.dictionary.com )and spelling mistakes.
Very impressive your ‘behoove’ bit. Grand. really grand and sonorous. But still, the brief effort of yours to engage on this blog in any meaningful way … well, just isnt happening.
And when you so generously offered ‘However, I may be willing to give you some general idea of what my spiritual views are’, I really could help but cringe. No more swearing and aggression please.
Mutter mutter, bread and butter!
So sweetly said – ‘However I do hope you will be able to come to a bit more affable stance in this group… ‘, but then your reflex habit of threatening kicked in again with ‘otherwise almost no one here is going to take you seriously.’
Silly sister Tao. Dont you know?
I dont need any validation from you or anyone from your tea party.
Play nice.

Dear tucson,
Before 10:09 AM (PDT) on August 20, 2008.
Robert Paul Howard

Brad said (in quotations):
“For a few minutes I thought you may have written a post without swearing or defensively attacking someone.”
— Well then how’s about this one for ya Brad: FUCK OFF!
“Tao (is that really your name?)”
— None of your damn business, you pathetic little RS goon.
“i have been incredibly affable with you”
— In your wildest dreams maybe. You are clearly delusional. But that’s quite typical of RS sansangi cult-heads like yourself.
“still, the brief effort of yours to engage on this blog in any meaningful way … well, just isnt happening.”
— Oh poor little Brad… Then you’d best go back and read the mountain of Churchless archives, you insipid religious moron.
“And when you so generously offered ‘…willing to give you some general idea of what my spiritual views are’, I really could help but cringe.”
— That’s good. Because thanks for revealing how utterly disingenuous and hypocritical you really are, and that you really are nothing more than a troll for RS.
“No more swearing and aggression please.”
— Well in that case, since you are such an incorrigibly retarded faggot… How about this: FUCK OFF to the 10th power!
And Brad, lest I forget… At this point, almost no one here does take you seriously.
“I dont need any validation from you or anyone from your tea party.”
— Problem is Brad… YOU have NO validity here AT ALL. Only in your own delusional little mind. And your RSSB doesn’t give a fuck about you either. You are nothing more than an arrogant pseudo-spiritual cult-goon who carries a big bag of dogma shit, but zero experience.
PS: I got news for ya Brad… We don’t play by your rules here. Cult goons, trolls, and jackasses like you are eventually ignored, until they finally just leave. We aren’t interested in that same old RS authoritarian religious bullshit.
Bye-bye

First time visited this blog….
dont know what is exactly all of you are fighting for…
is it really religion? its just the differences in thought of 2 individuals… Nobdy can force ny 1 to choose ny religion… rit?
So y is it that we all r fighting for like more than 2 years… on this blog…
Come on tao, u tell me what religion or path is that you follow…?
tell us what are the things that you feel are very nice and which others should also follow…
make every minute of your life useful to urslf nd others..
Y r we talking just about the bad things abt ny path… where as there are alot many good things we can talk about…
Every Second is Important… make the best use out of it…

Mnk, I don’t know what you mean by “fighting.” What goes on here is living.
Discussing. Sharing. Questioning. Laughing. Arguing.
If I may be so bold (and, why, I think I will be), I’d like to suggest that you’ve fallen into a restricted view of what a loving, caring, nice, productive life is about.
In my opinion (and that’s all I have), life isn’t about following restrictive religious rules, looking over your shoulder at yourself to make sure that you’re doing exactly what you should.
Where’s this “should”? Where’s the “exactly”?
Life can’t be tied down. It’s bigger than we are. Commandments don’t really limit life, just the rigid person committed to following them.

i want to chat or mail babaji plz help me

plz i want to send mail babaji i want to know babaji e mail id i want too chat babaji

Hello there.
Interesting site I must say. I am happy that I found someone who was with “RSSB” so I can ask questions.
I have been a vegetarian for some years and I go to satsangs sometimes in my country. Being a vegetarian though doesnt necessarily have to do with RSSB but the fact that my carnal nature is designed to harm for my survival while this is not what I want to do as an entity that wants to be independent from matter.
I am not initiated though and I have my doubts about it. But sometimes I wonder if my doubts exist because the disciples are following blindly and turn the whole thing into a “cult” or “organized religion” regardless of whether the master is real or not.
My question is what if the guru is real but the disciples or those behind the RSSB are ruining it just like every other religion?
I want to be “awakened” and if there is a real Guru I want to find him.
Yet my wish to find a real guru may end me up following something fake while believing its real instead. That can also be true even if a guru is real but end up becoming a member of a corrupted organization that backs him up.
Under the possibility that the guru could be real but the followers themselves the problem and those you have experienced and have led you to abandon RSSB, what would you have thought to reconsider for yourself or advice me who wonders about this possibility?
Assuming that you would check it one more time just to make sure for your decision how would you investigate it once more?

Alexander,
You asked,
“I want to be “awakened” and if there is a real Guru I want to find him.”
—Could you explain what “awakening” means? Is there something special about being, “Awakened?” Have you recieve some spiritual training in the special value of being Awakened? I’m not finding fault with your question. I’m just curious as to the origin of your awakening desire.
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

I dont have a clear definition of it because I havent experienced it. My search for this “awakening” comes from my experience with this life we are all experiencing.
Everything we experience is subject of our brain functions, chemical substances in our body, our five senses that receive external information, the external information itself and the way our brain calculates that information.
I notice that based on our experiences and our “design” we form a subjective interpretation of reality. Everything we define is subjective. Even when we feel sure that we have found the real path is an illusion that we may define as an absolute objective reality.This is why disciples of a certain philosophy may derail from the original meanings and end up living in an illusion than the truth that was supposed to be shown to them by that philosophy. They can not realize it and they never will. You and I may be living in one too. Choosing a path to the truth may lead us to an illusion that we are in that path.
Beliefs, knowledge, realization, interpretations….they vary from eye to eye, from thought to thought.
There are countless of “realities” formed but none is objectively real and we are still living in lethargy because we behave in accordance to our biological design and our mind’s addiction to the external environment. Our mind is so addicted to this environment that it manifests other fake realities within other fake realities. For example you see a tin that writes Orangina or 7up or Pepsi, and they depict images and letters that communicated a fake message to our conscious and subconscious. A new kind of fake “reality” is manifested through human creativity.
There should be one objective reality, one understanding for all, one which transcends our consciousness from these “realities”
It is hard for me to put it better and I doubt I passed the message correctly. (But even so my message may be interpreted differently from person to person because our mind creates different interpretations from person to person).

Alexander,
Well you have most certainly surely come to the right place with these questions about RS that you have asked.
Most of these issues you raise have been discussed and deliberated upon here, and to quite some extent.
So hang around for awhile and I am sure several other folks who are also quite well versed and experienced in RS, and who have also moved on, will be responding to your queries as well.
Brian is this blog’s founder and author, and I am sure he too will have some sage advice for you as well.
I myself have some specific suggestions for you, but I will not post them right now. I don’t have time tonight. Also, some of your questions need to be disentangled from… lets say some umm ‘presumptions’ that you have. So as for my insights and advice, I will post that here shortly. Until then, I’m sure other contributors will be sharing theirs.

Hi tAo
What “presumptions” of mine are you referring to?

Alexander, a few thoughts…
This morning I started reading a book by someone who was a true believing Christian fundamentalist, and became an atheist.
Thumbing through a chapter that looked interesting, I saw that he advises an “outsider” approach to analyzing whether a religion (or spiritual path) is right for you.
Meaning, be as detached, questioning, and skeptical as someone would be who has no investment at all in the religion/path in question.
His point, which makes sense, is that right from the beginning (as in your case, from what you’ve said, as for me also, surely) we generally start with presumptions. We want to believe that X is true, so we focus on what supports our hoped-for belief and ignore contradictory evidence.
So that’s one thought…to take a step back and consider your attraction to RSSB/Sant Mat from a more detached perspective. After all, Charan Singh said “critics are our best friends.” Be your own best friend, by criticizing unexamined assumptions.
On a different slant, many years ago I read on a message board that RSSB initiates view themselves as technicolor people in a black and white world.
Meaning, as is the case with most religions (Buddhism and Taoism being possible exceptions), there is a marked tendency toward feeling special, unique, singled out for special favor by God and the guru.
You might ponder whether this is what you want. It’s fine if it is. Feeling special is a good feeling.
I’ve just come to consider that I’d rather pursue a spiritual/philosophical “path” (or non-path) that has a goal of brightening or enlightening everyone and everything. Of casting more light on reality from everyone’s perspective.
For me, science is one way humans can do this. Being humble and uncertain (in the sense of always questioning)is another way. I’ve come to be wary of religions or spiritual paths that preach exclusivity. This has always turned me off, but somehow I found myself a member of a group that preached just that (probably because I really liked feeling special, as above).
A few things to think about. Hope this helps.

Alexander,
While I could discuss some of your presumptions I would simply like to say what I say to any prospective follower of a Radha Soami guru:
–How do you know the guru is who he says he is and can do what he says he can do? Do you want to devote your life to this presumption without proof? Just know you’re making a leap of faith as in any religion. If it gives you comfort, fine. But, what if the guru isn’t who he says he is and can’t do what he says he can do?
Your decision.

Alexander,
You are asking some of the right questions.
You said:
“But sometimes I wonder if my doubts exist because the disciples are following blindly and turn the whole thing into a “cult” or “organized religion” regardless of whether the master is real or not.
My question is what if the guru is real but the disciples or those behind the RSSB are ruining it just like every other religion?”
I’m neither a regular reader or poster on Brian’s blog, but I’d like to pass on a couple of thoughts. Firstly, RSSB is the name of the organisation or administration by volunteers. It is not the actual philosophy. It is important to separate the two when making an evaluation. Focus on the philosophy itself before having a long look at the organisation.
As you have discerned, Sant Mat can be lived as a religion instead of the practical application that it purports itself to be. I have been around the philosophy and the organisation in numerous countries for close on 40 years now. Unfortunately, the majority of people are fundamentalist in their approach. They find it convenient to follow rather than do. Hence they get nowhere and remain limited in their experience and limited in their thinking. The consequent group behaviour is often apalling.
Some of the people who leave Sant Mat are actually leaving RSSB. Others leave both. So have a good look at the philosophy before RSSB. You are fortunate to have spotted the consequence of ‘blind followers’ this early in the piece.
By the way, without the appropriate inner experience, there is no way to determine whether or not the guru is a guru. The best starting point is to consider him like the rest of us, and simply evaluate what he has to say. We all measure our own risks in our own way.
Good luck with your investigation.

I agree with everything you all said and I share very similar views.
Regarding me “presumption” though, I think there was a small misunderstanding.
I have my doubts whether the guru of RSSB is real or not. I wasnt aiming to question your choices with rhetoric questions. I only wondered “what if he is real” without forming any opinion about it, because I simply dont know. I wondered about the possibility.
I base this on my observations and the fact that its easy to fall for something that isnt real without even knowing it.
For example I was reading a book about meditation around 5 years ago and the author of the book was saying lots of good things about Sai Baba. I didnt know who that was. But the feats mentioned in the book caught my eye back then. His quotations also sounded as if they came from a holy man.
A year later I searched a bit, and found pictures of him doing some of his miracles. He was a showman. A “magician” that did tricks in the same manner showmen do to entertain. I also learned that he molests his followers.
And there are countless of such charlatans.
Of course I am sometimes wondering about the “what if”. Just as I may fall for a charlatan I may depart from the right path as well because my mind works both ways. Whatever I choose I do not know if its the correct choice.
Taking all these into consideration, following a certain path to find truth involves a risk. I need to practice that path for some time to find if its true. For example I see that Brian was with RSSB it for 30 years if I recall correctly? If I understood correctly he hasnt experienced anything all these years that proved to him he is real. If its not the right path I ll just wast my time just like I might have wasted my time if I followed the teaching’s and advices of a fake guru without necessarily being a fundamentalist. Also there is no timetable that tells you “hey if you practice that philosophy for X time you will reach your goal/you will know if its the right path”. Its an an unknown and varies from person to person. If the guru is indeed a fake I wasted my time. If he is real I may or may not find the truth. This fact creates a great uncertainty.
My choices regarding the path are subject of uncertainty too because right now every single choice I make is made from a low spiritual level. And I consider myself very weak.
The only thing I might accomplish at the end will be nothing. I ll just die trying.
Sometimes I wonder if there is an “easy” way, not to reach the goal, but to know for sure if that path is real. For example if the guru of the RSSB is indeed an actual guru. Some sign or something. At least if I know that I might know that I am leaning towards the right direction, while trying to ignore the spiritual obstacles created by the fundamentalists of that guru.
Its not the satsang or RSSB or the organization that attracts me but the possibility that the guru is real thus the path the right one if practiced correctly.
What I experience at this stage though are the superficial signs of the organization. Which wouldnt differ from a fake organization.
Brian you have said something about people feeling special. I have partly experienced this at RSSB as well. One of my friends who are “initiated” gives me that impression a lot. And I pointed to that friend many times that WE should always be questioning ourselves.
I also was a little bit worried about the motivation. “I am doing it for myself to find true happiness”. That motivation sounds similar to the motivation everyone has in life. Not of someone who tries to find truth. Just replace earthly goods like money, sex, love, power etc with the expected “goods” and “promises” of spiritual power. If we are doing it to find personal “happiness” because “we are special and know better than the others” then we are only trying to feed our ego and make it happy.

Just to clear things up again.
I dont have any pressumptions about the guru at this moment.The past few months I ve been trying to find concrete evidence whether he is real or not, if the organization has other purposes behind it etc.
I d also like to know how the economy works at Dera, how it finances itself and how do they trade with the outside world. I doubt they sustain their selves 100% on their own

Follow your instinct man, just follow your instinct. and if you decide to meditate, then meditate wholeheartedly,,,not counting backwards from 2.5hours, not thinking if this is the right/wrong way. Just do it and stop taking advice from writtings from ppl in blogs, who you cannot see or listen. The brians, the tuscons, the anders,or taos are just writtings on the screen.Notice how quick everyone was ready to advice you, to tell you what to do..all experts in failure.Go do your own thing,write your own history and find out by yourself the answers to these questions. With advice upon advice upon advice there are more gurus than disciples.
A master told his disciples that there are four things he cannot do for them:
Eat for them, Breath for them, Go with their wives for them, and meditate for them.

Alexander,
—Could you explain what “awakening” means? Is there something special about being, “Awakened?” Have you recieved some spiritual training in the special value of being Awakened? I’m not finding fault with your question. I’m just curious as to the origin of your awakening desire.
Thanks for a reply,
Roger

Alexander,
The following is what I have found to be true, but it is just an intuition condensed into concepts and, as such, it ultimately is untrue because reality or absolute is not conceptual, conceivable or describable.
I was involved with RSSB for over two decades starting in the late 60’s-early 70’s. I have since found that following a spiritual path has no particular relevance to ‘understanding’ which can occur at any time under any circumstance. The obstacle to ‘understanding’ or ‘awakening’ is a thin veil, a trick of perception that is a result of our habits and conditioning.
A spiritual path is based on the premise of an individual that needs to go through a variety of disciplines and correct behaviors in order to purify and get rid of the ‘I’ or ego, and then achieve reunion with God. To follow a path or discipline tends to reinforce the sense of ‘self’ because there is this goal of liberation or salvation to be achieved BY it. The irony is there is no self to achieve anything.
The fundamental point that is missed is that the seeker, at every stage of this quest, is already what he/she is seeking. There is no way to make the seeker any more what they already are. It is a matter of looking in the right direction, which is no direction at all, to see this: to see what you think you are is just a phantom, a dreamed character in a play you are playing a role in. There is no individual. No separate soul. No ego to overcome.
There are no particular qualifications for perceiving this because Consciousness is perfectly present in all circumstances and has no need for special diets, disciplines or gurus.
Consciousness is always present HERE whether one is loading the dishwasher or experiencing a grand vison of the creation in some exotic inner region.
When this is understood, the game of the spiritual quest appears silly, like a dog chasing it’s tail. There is nothing wrong with playing the game. If it is your role in the play to be a disciple of a guru, carry on and have fun but none of it leads to what you already are, which you are whether you know it or not. You can search the cosmos for your glasses for a thousand eons and then be shocked to discover they were on your nose the whole time.
What you already are is the unborn and thus undying Presence that is prior to all phenomena and thought. It can’t be conceived or circumscribed in any way because in doing so it would be making an object out of itself and the illusion of individuality and duality begins.
As long as subject is centered in a phenomenal object and thinks and speaks from this, subject is identified with that object and is bound.
All questions are answered when it is understood there is no ‘self’. Abandonment of this self or phenomenal center constitutes the only ‘practice’, and such abandonment is not an act of will or voliton performed by the identified subject, but a non-action which leaves non-objective Source in control of phenomenal activity and free from fictitious interference from an imaginary self.
You could don a loincloth and sit in a cave waiting for this to happen, or it may come over you while going though the check-out line in the supermarket. The advantage of hearing what I am saying is that because this is no big deal, most people don’t recognise it between their thoughts as they go about their activities. It is so ordinary it is overlooked. Be alert and you will discover you are free.
Because I have attempted to explain something non-relative with the relative terminology of language, everything I have said can be interpreted as contradictory or just raises more questions. Just remember the asker is the answer.

Ander
I agree with you about “if you decide to meditate, then meditate”
But I do NOT agree with you on “stop taking advice from writtings from ppl in blogs, who you cannot see or listen. The brians, the tuscons, the anders,or taos are just writtings on the screen.”
You said: “Notice how quick everyone was ready to advice you, to tell you what to do..all experts in failure.”
— First of all little mr. smart-ASS, Alexander himself was the one who ASKED for the advice. And no one here was very “quick” to respond or to “tell what to do”. As for your comment that others here are “experts in failure”, you are obviously a rather stupid fool and you definitely don’t know shit about other people here.
You also said: “With advice upon advice upon advice there are more gurus than disciples.”
— You really are a dumb-ass disciple, although you like to think you are a wise-ass… which in fact makes you even dumber… and thus hardly anyone to say or determine who is or isn’t a “guru”.
“Guru” actually means one who brings LIGHT to the darkness…. One who dispells the darkness of ignorance with the light of knowledge. So actually anyone who removes or dispells the illusions of dogma and beliefs is a guru. A guru is anyone who brings light and thus removes ignorance.
And btw, you forgot the fifth thing: A so-called “master” is not able to THINK for you… but then if you follow the “master” myth as you seem to do, then thinking for yourself is something that you don’t seem to do very much of either.
You foolishly say: “just follow your instinct”
But I say: Don’t “follow” anything (or anyone) – just be sober, pragmatic, and use REASON.

How upset can someone get when their ignorance is exposed by themselves.
I insist,,, follow instinct.
know reason and logic, but follow your instict.
from the Tao Teh Ching
Know the masculine, cleave to the feminine
Be the valley for everyone.
Being the valley for everyone
You are always in virtue without lapse
And you return to infancy.
Know the White, cleave to the Black.
Be a model for everyone.
Know Glory but cleave to Humiliation
Be the valley for everyone.
When your constancy in virtue is complete
You return to the state of the “uncarved block.
ps. Tuscon, i enjoyed your post.
Tao, yours too.

Dear Alexander et all,
Interesting thread.
I second Pooh Bears advice about separating RSSB from the philosophy. Specifically, the aspects of sant mat meditation which are fundamental in my mind are:
1) having an understanding of the “eye center” and knowing that the first goal of sant mat is to withdraw the consciousness to this center.
2) That at this center, one will come into contact with a perceptible sound that will catch the attention.
3) That this experience is about GRADUAL detachment from form and the senses, and slowly developing a taste for the sound (master) so that at the time of death, one’s interest is in following the sound.
I am sure you know this already if you are interested in sant mat, but these aspects of the practice differentiate it from zen, tibetan buddhist meditation, fllowing the breath, etc. I am not claiming it is a superior practice, but it is a unique practice.
Think of the guru for now as a person who is practiced at the art of withdrawing his consciousness and merging his attention with the sound–one who has accomplished what the new practitioner also wants to accomplish. All the other aspects–sach kand, the radiant form, etc., are all lovely concepts, but only concepts.
Also keep in mind that in RSSB there is no spiritual hierarchy, though the organization appears to be hierarchical. It is a direct relationship between the practitioner to the teachings and to the master. And I would add that despite the many complaints on this blog that the current master makes himself largely unavailable, I would put forth just the opposite–he has already been to the states many more times than previous gurus.
Good luck with your decision Alexander.

I guess I should add that I live in the states, so my perception of the present RSSB master’s availability is based on his presence in the states. I can’t speak for other countries.

Tucson,
Enjoyed, reading your above comment. The first paragraph was a gem. Your discussion was very readable and practical.
Not bad for a surfer dude.
Best wishes,
Roger

Ander,
Unfortunately that selection you gave from Lao Tzu does not refer to “instinct”. It refers to abiding in the natural state… abiding in spontaneity and balance.
Reason brings great clarity and leads to insight.
The way of mere blind feeling and instinct leads into obscurity and torpor.
The TAO is not simply mere instinct alone. The Way is revealed by reason and clarity.

Fortunately you correct me

Adam, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the form of meditation practice you described differentiates RSSB/Sant Mat from all other faiths.
Sant Mat likes to claim that the “sound current” is at the foundation of every deep mystical practice. This is an exaggeration, but I have quite a collection of books that describe meditation practices involving hearing a subtle spiritual sound.
For example, Taoism, the mystical side of it, speaks of an audible energy that permeates all of the cosmos. However, Taoism obviously doesn’t believe in the need for a “perfect master” to connect the meditator with this power, because the Tao is considered to be omnipresent — the root of all things.
So meditation on an inner sound isn’t unique to Sant Mat.

Brian,
How does taoism recommend one be able to hear this audible energy?

I thank everyone for their inside.
Regarding other philosophies compared to what is taught from Sant Mat, I fail to see much difference from the things I have read. They all look highly similar and as if they are describing the same thing with different words.
The goal is also supposed to be the same AFAIK and all have the supporting “evidence” (although questionable) to back them up as reaching that goal.
Arent they supposed to lead to enlightenment and truth? There arent many truths.
I also believe that the principle of a “mandatory master” is probably misunderstood. I think a real master is needed for guidance. But it shouldnt necessarily mean that a person doesnt have the ability to find enlightenment without a master.
One last question. According to Sant Mant we shouldnt eat meat, fish or eggs in order to avoid bad karma. What I find strange though is that any consumption of egg is not allowed. I wonder why this is the case.
A chicken gives birth to eggs even when they arent fertile (no sperm). This egg does not contain life and will not produce life. Its just like a woman’s period. The body gets rid of the old ovums to replace them with newer ones. The consumption of that egg is still considered to be bad karma, a thing that I find odd

Alexander wrote: “Regarding other philosophies…They all look highly similar and as if they are describing the same thing with different words.”
— Approaches to Reality vary considerably. Various types of Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Taoism, to name a few, are quite different from Sant Mat dogma and its cosmology. If you are unfamiliar with these, I suggest a thorough study before committing your life to Sant Mat.
Regarding the issue with Sant Mat and eggs. It is based on the theory that if one is willing to eat an unfertilized egg, one may eventually consume a fertilized egg either intentionally or by accident and incur adverse karma. Also, eggs are considered “rajasic” or stimulating food by Sant Mat (and other Indian religions and ayurvedic medicine) which they believe activates the mind unncessarily and also activates “lower” centers and “base” desires, thus disturbing meditation and spiritual “progress”.
Most satsangis go to great lengths to avoid even a fraction of an egg in, say, cookies where one egg may be used to produce a batch of one dozen. In which case the offending satsangi would be consuming 1/12 of an egg that most likely is unfertilized. Mayonnaise which contains only a small amount of egg per serving, even less than a cookie, is avoided at all costs.
Satsangis study food labels carefully for evidence of eggs and servers in restaurants are questioned and often sent to the kitchen to inquire about the ingredients of certain food items to make sure eggs are not included.
I consider all this absurd and obsessive. You decide how you feel about it.

Tucson,
Could you write a comment on the dairy products restrictions? I have no info.
Thanks,
Roger

radhasoami actually this words has it’s own strength and weight that we should understand what does it mean.i want to be a member of radhasoami this words actually hurts me..i like this thing.Those people who don’t have any knowledge about these must know what is the principal behind radhasoami.

To all,
On this pro-vegetarian site, some might like to also inform themselves on a kindred topic as per karmic implications/morality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism.
You decide how you feel about it.
Robert Paul Howard

Hi Roger,
There is no restriction in Sant mat regarding eating dairy products except for cheese made with rennet, an enzyme derived from the stomach lining of cattle and perhaps other ruminants. This enzyme causes the milk to coagulate into curd if I understand correctly not being a resident of Wisconsin or a descendant of a long line of cheese makers.
There are enzymes of vegetable origin which work about as well as animal rennet. Cheese made from “vegetable” rennet is allowed for satsangis to eat without restriction.
The previous master Charan Singh, when asked about rennet, would say that we have to live in this world and not to obsess about what kind of rennet was in cheese. However, the current master, Gurinder Singh, has forbidden eating cheese made with rennet and lists of cheese brands made without animal rennet are made available to satsangis.
I leave it up to the reader to come to their own conclusions about this. My thinking is in line with Charan Singh on this matter.
What is interesting is that most current satsangis initiated by Charan Singh, who formerly ate cheese made with animal rennet, now avoid this type of cheese as per Gurinder’s edicts.
One “perfect” master says it’s OK to eat animal rennet while another “perfect” master says it is not. Ah, the masters work in mysterious ways unfathomable to ordinary folks such as myself.

Keshav,
Do please tell us, what is “the principlke behind radhasoami”??? Please inform us what that is.
If you really “understand what does it mean”, as you imply that you do, then you will no doubt be able to enlighten us. I await your explanation.
You are most welcome to share your great understandiong, knowledge and wisdom about Radhasoami with the rest of us humble souls.
And since you “want to be a member of radhasoami”, then your insight will be most welcome.
However, I do have to wonder and ask you… why is it that you say that “this words actually hurts me”?
If you are as knowledgable and wise about Radhasoami as you imply that you are, then why should mere words and truths “hurts” you? Please explain to us why mere words can hurt you.
And also please explain who are the “Those people” that you refer to? And also, why do you think that they “don’t have any knowledge about” Radhasoami?
Thank you.

To all,
I regret that my reference supplied above fails to function – even though I copied it from the location where the article is presented. By placing the terms “cannibalism wikipedia” in Google, the article is the first to be listed, i.e.: “Cannibalism – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cannibalism (from Spanish caníbal, in connection with cannibalism among the Antillean Caribs) [1], also called anthropophagy (from Greek: ἄνθρωπος, …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism – 139k – Cached – Similar pages.”
I regret the insufficiency of the reference I supplied before. I hope this will serve to correct it.
Robert Paul Howard

tucson
I have 2 books written by Sifu Wong Kiewt. One is about Chi Kung and the second about Shaolin. The books give emphasis on the spiritual aspect of these arts and talks about Zen and Taoism since its their ultimate aim.
The other book I have read is called Superconsiousness A Guide to Meditation by J.Donald Walters (relies on the teachings of Paramahansa Yogananda). I have also read another one which I lost and I cant remember who wrote it. It was similar in principle to that of Walters’.
I did not notice an incredible difference. Perhaps I failed to make connections and spot integral differences since its been some years since I have read about these philosophies.
Is there something I should be aware of about Sant mat’s teachings I may not be familiar with that makes it very different from these philosophies? If its possible can you inform me?

Alexander,
Philosophies like Sant Mat, many religions, and other yoga paths are dualistic. That is, the deity is seen as an object separate from the individual that must be approached or attained usually via a prescribed set of disciplines, rituals, devotion, prayer and practices. The deity is objectivized as ‘other’ than what the apparent individual seems to be. It is something to be realized or attained in the future.
In Taoism, Zen, Advaita Vedanta, for example, there is no such objective diety to be attained since it is intrinsic in one’s immediate and present nature. How can one embark upon a path to what one already is? Such philosophies focus on what is present rather than some future goal, heaven or superconscious state. There may be prescribed practices but they are geared to being fully conscious in the present moment. The reality is seen as this non-objectivised Presence which cannot be known except as its functioning and phenomenal appearance.
A good introduction and overview of Non-Duality is a book called “One” edited by Jerry Katz.
Another book I like for beginners and experienced alike is “The Upside Down Circle”, Zen laughter by Zen Master Gilbert. Very simple and one of my favorites.
I am unfamiliar with Sifu Wong Kiewt, but I spent some years studying the martial arts Hsing I, and Lo Kap Bak Fat. Oriental martial arts such as these as well as Tai Chi and other “Kung Fu” styles have their philosophical roots in non-dualist Taoism and/or Buddhism.
I have not read the book by J. Donald Walters but I did read many years ago Yogananda’s classic “Autobiography of a Yogi” which was charming but, in my opinion, dualistic in its approach.
It is obvious my orientation is non-dualist, but I am not saying that “Awakening” is not possible via dualistic methods such as bhakti marg (devotion to deity).
It depends on the individuals predilection.
I find non-dulaity to be more expedient, but to the devotionally inclined it may seem too “dry”.

I am really surprised to come across this blog. I have been a part of RSSB but always have been a real sceptic at heart. The functioning of the RSSB is so autocratic that dissent is curbed and sychophancy is nurtured. It has once been a journey of self discovery however it is now collapsing under its own weight and growth. I never knew spirituality can be such a good business that u can create a transnational enterprise. I came to this path due to some experiences in childhood. I continue to have these experiences inspite of not being in this path. I believe that truth/God is not the sole prerogative of RSSB.

Tuscon,
you wrongly write:
“Philosophies like Sant Mat…are dualistic.”
Sant Mat states that the reality is that God is oneness…and that duality is the illusion. The master and disciple play their parts in the play of illusion for the disciple to merge into oneness. Right?

Adam writes:
“Sant Mat states that the reality is that God is oneness…and that duality is the illusion.”
— No Adam, you are quite mistaken. You have attempted to portray Santmat/RS in thios way before, but you are simply wrong. Just because the RS literature makes an infrequent or occasional mention that “God is oneness” (as you say), does NOT at all make the RS path & teaching & approach one of non-duality.
The RS path is fundamentally dualist oriented. And the dualism of RS is pervasive throughout the teaching, the meditation practice, and the orientation towards the guru. Everything about the RS path is dualistic oriented. Just a few little words saying that “God is oneness” does not make RS a non-dual path. I think that you do not see this because: (1) You do not truly understand non-duality or the orientation/teaching of non-duality, and (2) You are apparently already rather heavily invested into the RS belief system and so you are nable see it from an objective point of view, or a non-dual point of view.
“The master and disciple play their parts in the play of illusion for the disciple to merge into oneness. Right?
— Wrong. Thats only how RS tries to portray it. In non-duality, there is no such “merge(ing) into oneness”. Merging into oneness is a dualistic concept. And there is also no “master and disciple play their parts in the play of illusion”. There is only the real, the reality, or that which is always already the case. It is basic duality to think that “master and disciple play their parts in the play of illusion”. The only illusion there is, is the illusion (your illusion) that there exists a “master and disciple”, or that playing “parts in the play of illusion” somehow represents non-duality or that RS is a teaching of non-duality.
I suggest and encourage you to go take some time to really study and really grasp the essence and understanding and orientation of non-duality. (and several of Tucson’s past comments are an excellent starting point)
Because, at the present time, it is quite clear that you do NOT (understand and grasp), as is clearly evidenced by your repeated attempts to portray Santmat and the RS cult as somehow being non-dual.
Until you do that and gain some real insight into non-duality, you will remain like all the other philosophically immature and narrow-minded RS satsangis who try to portray Santmat & RS as something that it is not.

Adam,
Regardless of the description of Reality/Diety as oneness, formless, etc. in Sant Mat, the approach is dualistic. Diety is objectified as something to attain and there is a prescribed method to get “there” via diet, meditation, initiation, vows, perfect master, sound current, and more.
Diety, in Sant Mat, is somewhere other than where/what the disciple presently is. The disciple must vacate the body and GO TO higher regions in some other dimension of consciousness. God is not ‘here’, it is ‘there’ in Sant Mat.
In non-duality no action is possible to effect realization, because that which is ‘real’ in us is so already, always was and always will be. We can no more “become” real than we can become ourselves. We have no action to take to be what we are!
Do we have to realize we have a nose? We aren’t the least concerned about whether we have a nose or not, but we are concerned about achieving Reality which is even more obvious than our nose because it underlies every thought and action we attribute to ourselves.
True, our noses may be objects of consciousness, while our Reality never could be, and so we cannot know our Reality objectively, as we can objectively know our noses, but our Reality is nevertheless a certainty. It is the ultimate certainty, a certainty ever present that can never be objectivized in any circumstances but AS which, nevertheless, we can be conscious in each and every moment.

Hi all,
Before deciding on a path, each individual has complete right to test the various options available to him. You all already know of the various paths that exist today. And yes, almost all claim to be the real path!
So why not go for yourself and check? Explore the options available to you and then try going through the Radha Soami teachings. You’ll come to know the difference because truth would just shine bright.
But with an open mind give a thought to yourself…. “Do you think the people who are emitting such disrespect for a philosophy would be anywhere even near to the right path? Do you think the persons who are full of hatred and so short tempered be anywhere close to God?”

Mohnish said: “Do you think the people who are emitting such disrespect for a philosophy would be anywhere even near to the right path? Do you think the persons who are full of hatred and so short tempered be anywhere close to God?”
–I think the assumption is being made here that someone who is close to God (as if it were possible not to be) would somehow exhibit exemplary behavior or that a definition of that behavior in the context in which it occured could even be determined. Who’s to know what is good or bad in God’s eyes unless you establish that in a conceptual, and therefore relative, value system? If one accepts that God is Absolute, any relativity would not apply.
Hence, the many stories of so-called “realized” persons, gurus, etc. behaving in bizarre ways according to conventional standards of behavior.
You can’t pin Reality down.

Hi all,
Tuscon you are right. It is true that the so-called realized persons etc behave in bizarre ways according to conventional standards of behavior. The concept of good, bad, morality etc is indicative of duality. God is beyond duality. He is reality beyond the comprehension of our limited intellect and mind.
I have met the present Master a number of times as a seeker. To me he came across as a human being nothing great at all. But u cannot tell this to the satsangi”s. They will cry for your blood. If you are desperate for God, the path becomes irrelevant. It is not the Guru, but you who have to work. It is we who have to leave the crutches of the RSSB and learn to walk independently.
We have to remove a lot of baggage we are carrying (concepts, illusions , beliefs) and unlearn a lot of things. Enlightenment is independent of lot of things told in satsangh. Sat sangh is association with truth. If you are focused on truth , it will lead u to the end.

Very nice comment Minnie. Glad that you’ve found and have joined in our discission group. You have brought some fresh air.

Tao,
I find your comments very rational . Can you throw some light on inititation and does it alter one’s life in any way ??

Mohnish, I can only speak for myself, but I’m certainly not full of hatred or short-tempered in regard to Sant Mat/RSSB.
Those who sound that way (which may be me at times, from your point of view) are simply expressing themselves in a fashion that is more honest and open than you’re used to.
I’m curious: what is there in the RSSB/Sant Mat teachings that would convince a skeptic that this path alone, out of so many religions in the world, is true?
You seem to imply that the truth is so obvious, anyone should be able to see it. What is “it”?

Lohan,
Thanks for your appreciation… but I am not sure what exactl you want to know about “initiation”? And do you mean RS initiation in particular?
Nevertheless, you have asked: “Can you throw some light on inititation and does it alter one’s life in any way ??”
Initiation in RS is more or less a superficial formality. It is generally not given personally and directly by the guru, but instead by someone else (another disciple) who is apppointed by the guru to conduct the formality of the initiation event.
The initiation event is a simple matter of the prospective disciple being told the ‘secret’ five word mantra, and instructed about the vows and also the specific procedure that is to be employed in the meditation practice.
I don’t know what else to tell you other than that this RS type of so-called “initiation” is really just a very preliminary and much more exoteric (not esoteric) type of initiation ritual for beginners.
This RS initiation is not the higher level of true inner mystical initiation that is the actual realization of awakened consciousness. And remember that these are mere words, which at best are only pointing at something which can only be known and understood by direct experience alone.

For those who were RSSB satsangi’s but have strayed from the path — okay I guess you do not meditate — but do you still have a vegetarian diet and avoid alcohol etc. Just out of interest

Jay,
I am one who has strayed from the path as you put it. It now seems that being on the path would be straying.
Diet, meditation and intoxicants are irrelevant to ‘spiritual’ understanding.
Reality requires no particular diet or avoidance of any substance. Reality is present whether you are dining on raw mutton and pinot noir or brown rice and wheat grass juice.
If there is a liking for meditation, why not? But it won’t get you any closer to reality than you already are.

Jay, I still meditate — every day. Just not as long as before. Now I look upon meditation much more as opening myself to truth, rather than trying to find a preconceived notion of what truth is.
So meditation seems more genuine and honest now, less conceptual, intellectual, and theological.
I have a glass of red wine most evenings. Often while I’m writing a blog post. If you feel that I make sense, this shows that Oregon pinot noir (or whatever) doesn’t affect one’s mental faculties much.
If you feel that I’m writing nonsense, then obviously it must be the fault of the wine, since from inside my head, everything I say is perfectly clear — why everyone on Earth doesn’t agree completely with me on every subject is the big question of life, from my utterly non-humble perspective.
It seems like many (most?) others feel the same way about themselves, which keeps the conversational wheel spinning pleasantly in the blogosphere and elsewhere.

Jay,
First of all, I highly resent your presmptious assertion that I “have strayed from the path”. (because you more or less included me when you said: “those who were RSSB satsangi’s”)
I have not “strayed” from anything. Because I was not WITH anything to begin with… so therfore I have not “strayed” AWAY from anything. I simply have always been myself. I was never locked into or owned by the RS path or the RSSB. For me, there was/is nothing to stray away from.
However, you sound as if you think that if someone does not adhere to the RS cult and follow its dogma, if someone has a mind of thire own and thinks for themself, then that person has somehow “strayed”.
But that is a very narrow, biased and faulty mentality. It is predicated upon a FALSE idea that the RS cult/path is THE Path, the only true path.
But in fact, it is quite the contrary… it is actually the individual who has become narrowly and artificially fixated upon and in the RS belief system, who is really the one who has “strayed” away from Reality, away from the spontaneous and natural state, away from the Great Way.
You also said: “okay I guess you do not meditate — but do you still have a vegetarian diet and avoid alcohol etc.”
— Your preumption is mistaken again (about me). I DO meditate, but NOT at all anything like the RS mantra & nada-yoga/shabda-yoga & guru-bhakti method. My entire daily life is all my meditation… as ‘instant presence’ – the self-perfected state (dzogchen).
I also don’t specifically adhere to any sort of dietary restrictions or limitations… although I never consume any kind of beef or red meat. I do eat several egg yolks daily and drink whey protein shakes (for weightlifting), and have no problem with occasional seafood. However, I don’t bind or lock myself into any dietary limitations, which are always variable depending on circumstances.
I also drink wine and beer on rare occasions, but never regularly, frequently, or in excess. I don’t smoke dope (pot or marijuana) either. Both alcohol and marijuana use is rather detrimental to maintaining a good male testosterone level. I myself desire to maintain adequately high testosterone levels because (1) I am into body-building/weight-lifting, and (2) I also enjoy indulging in frequent and good SEX with women. And in case you don’t realize it, women ALWAYS prefer men who have high levels of male horny-mones and thus bigger harder erections. … Which is also why I too am a charter member of the Church of Holy Fuck !
So anyway, my advice to you is to not become fixated upon narrow belief systems such as RS. Practice whatever meditation you like, if you wish, but just don’t become mentally trapped in spiritual and religious dogma and morality.
Be Free.

TAo,
Too much infor.
Brian and Tuscon — thanks for your reply.

Jay,
Then screw you, you stupid fucking DIMWIT.
Btw, YOU were the one who asked US the question.
So it’s TOO BAD that you’ve got TOO LITTLE intelligence that you can’t handle (or appreciate) “too much infor”.
And NO THANKS to you.

TAo,
Same to you. You have just described yourself.

Jay,
I am not part of RSSB but I am definitely in the path. The path as per my view is one’s journey towards awareness, self realization. I am veggie (no eggs), do meditation and follow the principles. I do not drink and am a celibate.
I see the radiant form and the inner guru is guiding me. SO it does not matter if I go to the formal gatherings as I long as I practise the path in its true mystic sense.

Minnie,
You said: “I see the radiant form and the inner guru is guiding me.”
–Would you mind describing this experience and what sort of guidance you receive?

Jay, No matter how you respond now, or what you say now, you are still obviously a stupid fucking dimwit.
You asked us a question, and then you received some honest answers from myself and others. So I don’t give a damn that you are so stupid and dimwitted that you can’t handle or appreciate what you call “too much infor”, or that my response is not to your liking. That’s your problem, not mine.
Maybe you’ll realize that when you grow-up and become less of a fool and more of a mature adult.

Minnie,
You said: “I see the radiant form and the inner guru is guiding me.”
How do you know that you “see the radiant form”?
And why is that so significant to you?
And how do you know that “the inner guru is guiding” you? What “inner guru”? And where is this so-called “inner guru”? Is it just a feeling? How do you know that it is not a fantasy?
How do you know that it is real?
How do you know what is real?
I myself see/perceive an entire vast multi-dimensioned universe… but so what. So why do you suppose that you are seeing something unique, something special… and how is that perception “guiding” you?
Please explain. Thank you.

I have seen several people ( including those who are very close to me) taking initiation but the actual deeds of these people have been totally opposite to what RSSB preaches ?
I also feel initiation only makes people suffer from a sense of superority complex and they start looking down other people .
I totally agree with Tao rather than wasting time with RSSB it is much much better to spend some good time with your kids playing football or cricket (of course with a bottle of beer 🙂 ).
RSSB initiates are nothing but a way God has created a mechansm to collect a bunch of fools under a single umbrella.
Of course it is easy to identify a flock of people together and managing them rather that locating them individually and manipulating a hugely populated country like India.

Tao
I do not give importance to any experiences ( be it the radiant form or whatsoever). I just mentioned it. Regarding the directions from inner guru leaving the RSSB is itself a guidance. To come away from years of association within few minutes is the grace of inner guru. To discard everything even the experiences is the way. I believe the truth or inner guru is guiding me in true mystical sense.

can anyone plz send me email id of baba ji of radha soami satsang beas plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz send me

Rupinder,
All you have to do is go inside and babaji will be there.

Yeah Rupinder,
All you have to do is go way down deep “inside” the toilet, down inside the sewer, and there you will find “baba ji of radha soami satsang beas” lurking among the rest of the turds.
And also, just post YOUR own e-mail address here, and I will be sure to then send you what you need.

what ever u said, as indonesian satsangi i love babaji, i love rssb. GBU

Wake up.its high time.all of u r seeking something thats already within u!rssb is nothing but a huge multi-billion dollar,money making industry,feeding on ignorance of millions like u.the cream layer of babas are nothing but thugs.where do u think the money goes?what is ranbaxy,fortis and max?dont be blinded by illusions.u wont find anything like peace or god in there.he is within u.search urself

radhaswami
request kerna hai ki baba ji ka satsang 7 & 8 Feb 09 ko lucknow me hona hai, jisme badi tadad me log aate hai, jisme bade-bude, mareej, ladees aur bachhe bhi hote hai, pichle do bar se satsang ke khatem hone per sangat se wapas lotene me kafi takleef ka samna kerna pada tha, so aapse request hai ki is bar aisa na ho iske liya Lucknow ke pariwahan deptt. se bat ki jai ki Charbag se PGI tak chalne wali Bus ka root 7 & 8 Feb 09 ko badheker Mohanlalganj tak kar diya jai aur Bus ki sankhya bhi bhada de jai jisse logo ko ghar wapas jane me takleef ka samna na kerna pade. thankyou
(vivek kr. vishen)
9/6 tikait rai talab colony
Lucknow,
09452049670
e-mal- vishnuvishen@yahoo.co.in

fuck 0ff with osho organisation and his thinkings i am tatally against them

Jonny Singh A Song of Sixpence – what is the form of meditation that you now practice that you say has been more beneficial for you?

My name is Maggie
Gurinder Dhillon (the Guru)and I had some major disageements on a property that I purchased from Haynes Park Estate other wise know as THE RADHA SOAMI FAITH. Even before I purchased from him he instigated a full roit against me and a number of board of trustees quit because of the illeaglities of his actions. I can give full details to what happen including the parcipants and I know how he effects peoples minds. I also know how to stop his bullshit and bring him down. He aslo said at a private interview that no one believes he God, I also know his delusional state of mind he need the co-denpends of the so called faithfull to even believe that he is God.
If anyone is interested in hearing the full details especially what happen at Haynes Park Estate in Bedforshire England I would love to tell the story as it happened.

Its Maggie again
Has anyone ever considered that Gurinder Dhillon is one of the worlds richest men with property holdings all over the world and nearly every city and the money just keeps poring in, he ahs at least 4 properties in the UK one which is an office buliding and rents out to businesses. And that also encourages him to do things on a level that can not even be considered humanitarian? Big deal he’s a veggie.

Maggie,
I would love to listen the story, if you wish.
Thanks and best rgds.

Maggie, I also would welcome you sharing your story. You can either leave another comment, or you could email me (use link in right sidebar). Your choice.

Hi maggie, I would also like to hear your story,you can email me at risho.beroi@yahoo.com.
Thanks

Maggie,
You purchased the property from Gurinder, and he rioted? If you are the buyer and paying cash, he should dance with joy. Cash is king, screw the property ownership.
In the interview, are you saying, Gurinder thinks he is God? A GIHF?

Mysticism,Christian and Buddist is an enjoyable,thought-provoking work that gives the reader much to ponder.
I built my hut beside a travelled road,
Yet hear no noise of passing cart and horses.
You would like to know how it’s done?
With the mind detached,one’s place become remote.
Picking chrysanthemums by the eastern hedge
I catch sight of the distant southern hills,
The mountain air is lovely as the sun sets
And flock of flying birds return together.
In these things is a fundemental truth
I would like to tell,but lack the words.
The poetry of T’ao Ch’ien translated by J.R Hightower.

rishi, nice poem. I’d like to live like that. So long as my laptop had a fast broadband connection and I could watch satellite TV. Oh, the poet said “with the mind detached, one’s place become remote.”
Guess I can keep my laptop and TV.

A good read – a long one though. But not long enough to discard.
An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem
science has with God, The Almighty.
He asks one of his new students to stand and…..
Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.
Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.
Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes.
Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal
him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God
didn’t. How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)
Prof: You can’t answer, can you? Let’s start again, young fella. Is God
good?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No.
Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From…God…
Prof: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.
Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it? And God did make everything.
Correct?
Student: Yes.
Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)
Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these
terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?
Student: Yes, sir.
Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)
Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe
the world around you. Tell me, son…Have you ever
seen God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.
Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your
God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.
Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.
Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science
says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.
Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.
Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.
Student: No sir. There isn’t.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)
Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even
more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat.
But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below
zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is
no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the
absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the
opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as
darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?
Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light….But if
you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it’s called darkness,
isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it were you would be able to
make
darkness darker, wouldn’t you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?
Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue
there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are
viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity
and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either
one.To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact
that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the
opposite of life: just the absence of it.
Now tell me, Professor.Do you teach your students that they evolved from
a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of
course, I do.
Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where
the argument is going.)
Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at
work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor,
are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a
preacher? (The class is in uproar.)
Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s
brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain,
felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So,
according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable
protocol, science says that you have no brain,sir.
With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable.)
Prof: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it sir… The link between man & god is FAITH. That is
all that keeps things moving & alive.
NB: I believe you have enjoyed the conversation…and if so…you’ll
probably want your friends/colleagues to enjoy the same…won’t you?….
this is a true story, and the student was none other Abdul kamal azad (former indian president who is also an scientist)
A man does what he can…
Until HIS DESTINY is REVEALED to him.

Sorry the name was Abdul Kalam Azad

The Mantra that RSSB uses can be found on the internet and other organisations also uses it. It’s no secret. That is just a ploy to suck you in.

Gurinder looked straight at me and said I’m God but no one believes me. I thought I wonder why.
I hate to be the last man on earth under the delusion of being God, what a head fuck.

Minnie our consciousness always is radiant, and we can even project our illusions to look radiant etc. Its called altered states. When I have a spiritually experience there are times when there is no explanation for it. But my teachers have said that there are many such experiences which are just that. Experiences. Anything that is not directly experienced by the 5 physical senses then we label spiritual. I do not deny your experience but if you do not have the how to authenticate your experiences on a daily level you could find yourself in a sticky mess as I was. Believe me after reading Sant Mat books I too would have loved to have such experiences. Fortunately for myself my delusions were limited.

Too answer someone else question I have not strayed off the path of RSSB I left it very willing. I have never been very involved in intoxicants, seen too much side offects in other people. Was veggie but had major trouble with my tummy. Veggie was a major contributor of ill health. Even today I can only eat little raw vegtables and fruit.
I have seen too many people of having major trouble with thier health because of the ignorant tenants of Sant Mat. It’s fine if your system can take it but not to prove the Crucifixation Jesus Christ syndrome,”I suffer to please my God”. Suffering has not ever brought happiness (look at the world) or brought spiritual experiences or enlightment or the God experience.
Althought it has universally known for mutipule centuires that drug and alcohol abuse is very bad. This tenant of Sant Mat is nothing knew.

response to rishi story
The Atheist Professor with no Brain
Doug Kreuger has expanded the well-known Christian legend of the atheist philosophy professor who is unable to prove that he has a brain.
“LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ.” The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. “You’re a Christian, aren’t you, son?”
“Yes, sir.”
“So you believe in God?”
“Absolutely.”
“Is God good?”
“Sure! God’s good.”
“Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?”
“Yes.”
“Are you good or evil?”
“The Bible says I’m evil.”
The professor grins knowingly. “Ahh! THE BIBLE!” He considers for a moment.
“Here’s one for you. Let’s say there’s a sick person over here, and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?”
“Yes sir, I would.”
“So you’re good…!”
“I wouldn’t say that.”
“Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could…in fact most of us would if we could… God doesn’t.”
No answer.
“He doesn’t, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?”
No answer.
The elderly man is sympathetic. “No, you can’t, can you?” He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. “Let’s start again, young fella. Is God good?”
“Er… Yes.”
“Is Satan good?”
“No.”
“Where does Satan come from?”
The student falters. “From…God…”
“That’s right. God made Satan, didn’t he?” The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. “I think we’re going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen.” He turns back to the Christian. “Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?”
“Yes, sir.”
“Evil’s everywhere, isn’t it? Did God make everything?”
“Yes.”
“Who created evil?”
No answer.
“Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things – do they exist in this world?”
The student squirms on his feet. “Yes.”
“Who created them?”
No answer.
The professor suddenly shouts at his student. “WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!” The professor closes in for the kill and climb into the Christian’s face. In a still small voice: “God created all evil, didn’t He, son?” No answer. The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. “Tell me,” he continues, “How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?” The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. “All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn’t it, young man?”
No answer.
“Don’t you see it all over the place? Huh?” Pause. “Don’t you?” The professor leans into the student’s face again and whispers, “Is God good?”
No answer.
“Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?”
The student’s voice betrays him and cracks. “Yes, professor. I do.”
The old man shakes his head sadly. “Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen your Jesus?”
“No, sir. I’ve never seen Him.”
“Then tell us if you’ve ever heard your Jesus?”
“No, sir. I have not.”
“Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus… In fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?”
No answer.
“Answer me, please.”
“No, sir, I’m afraid I haven’t.”
“You’re AFRAID… you haven’t?”
“No, sir.”
“Yet you still believe in him?”
“…yes…”
“That takes FAITH!” The professor smiles sagely at the underling. “According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?”
The student doesn’t answer.
“Sit down, please.”
The Christian sits…Defeated.
Another Christian raises his hand. “Professor, may I address the class?”
The professor turns and smiles. “Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come,
come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering.”
The Christian looks around the room. “Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I’ve got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?”
‘Yes,” the professor replies. “There’s heat.”
“Is there such a thing as cold?”
“Yes, son, there’s cold too.”
“No, sir, there isn’t.”
The professor’s grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.
The second Christian continues. “You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don’t have anything called ‘cold’. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 – You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.”Silence.
A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. “Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?”
“That’s a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn’t darkness? What are you getting at…?”
“So you say there is such a thing as darkness?”
“Yes…”
“You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly, you have nothing, and it’s called darkness, isn’t it? That’s the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn’t. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you…give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?”
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.
This will indeed be a good semester. “Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?”
“Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error….”
The professor goes toxic. “Flawed…? How dare you…!”
“Sir, may I explain what I mean?” The class is all ears.
“Explain… oh, explain…” The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.
“You are working on the premise of duality,” the Christian explains. “That for example there is life and then here’s death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it.” The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. “Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?”
“Of course there is, now look…”
“Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?” The Christian pauses. “Isn’t evil the absence of good?”
The professor’s face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.
The Christian continues. “If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil.”
The professor bridles. “As a philosophical scientist, I don’t view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable.”
“I would have thought that the absence of God’s moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going,” the Christian replies. “Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?”
“If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.”
“Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?”
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. “Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?”
“I’ll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?” the professor hisses.
“So you don’t accept God’s moral code to do what is righteous?”
“I believe in what is – that’s science!”
“Ahh! SCIENCE!” the student’s face spits into a grin. “Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed…”
“SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?” the professor splutters.
The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. “To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?”
The professor wisely keeps silent.
The Christian looks around the room. “Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor’s brain?”
The class breaks out in laughter.
The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. “Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor’s brain… felt the professor’s brain, touched or smelt the professor’s brain?”
No one appears to have done so.
The Christian shakes his head sadly. “It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor’s brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says the professor has no brain.”
The class is in chaos. The Christian sits… Because that is what a chair is for.
The professor, amused at the student’s antics, asks the student whether he’s ever read anything about science.
“No,” says the student. “I only know what I’ve heard in church.”
“That explains your ignorance about what science is, young man,” says the professor. “Empirical knowledge of something does not always entail direct observation. We can observe the effects of something and know that it must exist. Electrons have not been observed, but they can create an observable trail that can be observed, so we can know they exist.”
“Oh,” said the Christian.
“No one has observed my heart, but we can hear it beating. We also know from empirical knowledge of people that no one can live without a heart, real or manufactured, or at least not without being also hooked up to some medical equipment. So we can know that I have a heart even though we have not seen it.”
“Oh, I see. That makes sense,” said the Christian student.
“Similarly, we can know that I have a brain. I wouldn’t be able to talk, walk, and so on unless I had one, would I?” said the professor.
“I guess not.”
“In fact, if I had no brain I couldn’t do anything at all. Except maybe become a televangelist!”
The class broke up with laughter. Even the Christian laughed.
“Evolution is known to be true because of evidence,” continued the professor. “It is the best explanation for the fossil record. Even prominent creationists admit that the transition from reptiles to mammals is well documented in the fossil record. A creationist debate panel, including Michael Behe and Philip Johnson, conceded this on a televised debate on PBS. It was on Buckley’s “Firing Line” show. Did you see it?”
The Christian student cleared his throat and said in a low voice, “My mom won’t let me watch educational TV. She thinks it will weaken my faith.”
The professor shook his head sadly. “Knowledge does have a way of doing that,” he said. “But in any case, evolution is also the best explanation for phenomena that have been observed.”
The Christian student sputters, “You–you mean we HAVE seen it?”
“Of course. Evolution has occured within recent times, and it continues to occur. Birds and insects not native to Hawaii were introduced just a couple of centuries ago and have evolved to take better advantage of the different flora. So this evolution has taken place within recorded history. Recent history. Did you know that?”
“Uh, no.”
“Viruses other diseases evolve to become resistant to medicine. This is not only observed but it is a major problem that science must confront every day. Mosquitos in the tunnels of London’s underground have evolved to become separate species because of their isolation from other groups of mosquitos. But enough about evolution. That doesn’t have anything to do with our issue, evil, does it?”
“Well…”
“What does it have to do with our issue?” asked the professor.
“Well, if you don’t believe in god, then you must believe we came from apes.”
The professor laughed. “Evolutionists don’t believe that people came from apes or even monkeys. They believe that humans and apes had a common ancestor.”
“Wow!” said the Christian. “That’s not what they told me at church.”
“I’m sure. They can’t refute evolution so they have to spread misinformation about it. But don’t you know that many Christians believe that god made humans by evolution?”
“I didn’t know that.”
“In fact, of the four people who debated the evolution side on PBS, on William F. Buckley’s ‘Firing Line,’ which I just mentioned, two of them were theists. One of them is a reverend, in fact.”
“Really?”
“Really. Many denominations of Christianity embrace evolution. Catholicism, the largest denomination of Christianity, is compatible with evolution. So evolution is not relevant here, is it?”
“I guess not.”
“Even if it were true that you have to be an atheist to believe evolution, which is not the case, and even if it were the case that evolution was unsupported by evidence, which is also not the case, this would not explain evil at all, would it. It is irrelevant.”
“I see that now,” said the Christian. “I don’t even know why I brought it up. I guess I thought it was an example of how you believe something without evidence.”
“Well,” said the professor. “As you can see, it is not. There is plenty of evidence for evolution. And even if there were no evidence, this has no bearing on the issue of evil. As we proceed through the philosophy course, you will see how to use your reasoning ability to separate important issues from irrelevant ones.”
“I’m guess learning already,” said the student, looking at the floor.
“But back to the problem of evil,” said the professor. “You stated that evil is the absence of good. How does that solve the problem of evil?”
The student said lifelessly: “If evil is the absence of good, then god did not create evil.” It was evident that this was something the student had learned by rote and had often repeated.
The professor shrugged his shoulders. “Okay, let’s suppose for the moment that this is true. This still does not explain evil. If a tidal wave wipes out a whole town, and 100,000 people die, is that evil?”
“There is the absence of good,” said the student.
“But so what? The problem is why god did not prevent the disaster. If god is all-powerful he can prevent it, and if he is all-knowing he knows that it is about to happen. So whether he created the tidal wave is not relevant. What we want to know is why he did not do anything to stop it.”
The student looked confused. “But why should he prevent it? It’s not his fault.”
“If a human being had the power to prevent a tidal wave wiping out a town, and this person intentionally failed to stop it, we would not say that the person is good. Even if the person said, ‘It’s not my fault,’ we would be appalled that someone could stand by and do nothing as thousands die. So if god does not prevent natural disasters, and he is able to do so, we should not say that god is good by the same reasoning. In fact, we would probably say that god is evil.”
The Christian student thought for a moment. “I guess I’d have to agree.”
“So redefining evil as the absence of good does nothing to solve the problem of evil,” said the professor. “At best it shows that god did not create it, but this does not explain why god does not prevent it.”
The Christian student shook a finger at the professor. “But that’s according to our human standards. What if god has a higher morality? We can’t judge him by our standards.”
The professor laughed. “Then you just lost your case. If you admit that god does not fit our definition of good, then we should not call him good. Case closed.”
“I don’t understand,” said the student, wrinkling his brow.
“If I go outside and see a vehicle with four tires, a metal body, a steering wheel, a motor and so on, and it fits the definition of a car, is it a car?” “Of course it is,” said the Christian student. “That’s what a car is.”
“But what if someone says that on some other definition it could be considered an airplane. Does that mean it’s not a car?”
“No,” said the student. “It still fits the definition of a car. That’s what we mean by saying that it’s a car. It doesn’t fit the definition of an airplane, so we shouldn’t call it that.”
“Exactly,” said the professor. “If it fits the definition, then that’s what it is. If god fits the definition of good, then he is good. If he does not, then he is not. If you admit that he does not fit our definition of good, then he is not good. It does no good to say that he could be ‘good’ in some other definition. If we want to know whether he is good by our definition, you have answered that question. God is not good.”
“I don’t believe it!” said the Christian student. “A few minutes ago I would have laughed at the suggestion that god is not good, but now I actually agree. God doesn’t fit the definition of good, so he’s not good.”
“There you go,” said the professor.
“But wait a minute,” said the student. “God could still be good in some other definition even if we don’t call him good. Despite what we think, god could still have his own morality that says he’s good. Even if we couldn’t call him good, that doesn’t mean that he isn’t good on some definition. He could have his own definition anyway.”
“Oh, you would not want to push the view that god might be good in some other definition,” said the professor.
“Why not?” “Well, if he has definitions of things that are radically different from our own, he might have a different definition of lots of other things. He might have his own definitions of such things as eternal reward, or eternal life. Your supposed eternal life in heaven might just be a year, or it could be a thousand years of torture. God could just say he has a definition of reward that includes excruciating torture as part of the definition.”
“That’s right!” said the Christian, jumping up. His eyes were wide open. “If god can redefine any word, then anything goes. God could send all believers to what we call hell and say that it is heaven. He could give us ten days in heaven and say that that’s his definition of eternity!”
“Now you’re thinking!” said the professor, pointing a finger at the student. “This is what a philosophy class is supposed to do for students.”
The Christian student continued. “God could promise us eternal life and then not give it to us and say that’s his definition of keeping a promise!”
“Yes, yes,” said the professor.
“I can’t believe I used to fall for this Christianity stuff. It’s so indefensible,” said the student, shaking his head. “Just a few moment’s thought and all the arguments that my church gave me in Sunday school just collapse.”
“So it would seem,” said the professor.
“I’m going to go to my church tonight and give the pastor a piece of my mind. They never tell me about important stuff like this. And they sure didn’t tell me the truth about evolution!”
The student, who stood up as a Christian, now sat down as an atheist. And he started using his brain–because that’s what it’s for. The other students in the class sat there, stunned, for a few moments. They knew they had witnessed the changing of a person’s life, the redirection of a young mind from falsehood and religious dogma to the honest pursuit of truth.
The students looked at each other and then began applauding. This soon gave way to cheering. The professor took a bow, laughing. When the students calmed down he continued his lecture, and class attendance was high for the rest of the semester.
copied from http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/brain.htm