Did I see God in first class?

Forgive my presumptions, but it sounds like you expect God to “play by your rules” so to speak? Is this true? Are you saying that even if that first class guru WAS God in the flesh, that, because you didn’t perceive him to be, he therefore isn’t? I don’t mean to get on my soapbox here, but I would never, ever put any human expectations on something powerful enough to create Universe. What if God is in everyone’s flesh? What if God permeates every molecule in the cosmos? How would we all live our lives if we assumed God was everywhere at all times? Approached everything and everyone with childlike innocence? I don’t mean to be or sound harsh, I’m just very curious.

Laura, good point: Yes, even though I don’t recognize something, it might be visible to others with a different or clearer vision. What I was trying to get at in this post was just what you said. Human expectations shouldn’t be put on God, a.k.a. the universal creative power.
My basic experience with people who claim that the master (or anyone else) is God in human form is that this claim is based on a belief or expectation, not on unequivocal direct experience. When you take away the thought they have about the person–“He’s God!”–the naked reality isn’t compellingly true.
A beautiful flower is plainly visible whether or not you believe in it. A God-man or God-woman isn’t. The proof of this is that not everyone, or, really, very few, perceive the person’s divinity. You have to believe he or she is God before you see that he or she is God.
There are exceptions, of course. I’ve talked with a few people who didn’t expect much from seeing a guru and then were blown away by him at first sight. But they didn’t go so far as to say, “I saw God.”
I like your comment about approaching everything with childlike innocence. Myself, I take this to mean being like the child who said, “The Emperor has no clothes.” A child tells it like she sees it. What I object to is people claiming that they see something in a person that isn’t really seeable. They make more out of the person than is really there. That doesn’t seem honest to me.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20001015/spectrum/main3.htm
check this link for article and as well as nice photo.

“Listen Jesus
I don’t like what I see
All I ask is that you listen to me
And remember
I’ve been your right hand man all along
You have set them all on fire
They think they’ve found the new Messiah
And they’ll hurt you when they find they’re wrong
I remember when this whole thing began
No talk of God then, we called you a man
And believe me
My admiration for you hasn’t died
But every word you say today
Gets twisted ’round some other way
And they’ll hurt you if they think you’ve lied”
Heaven on their Minds—Jesus Christ Superstar by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

aapharm, thanks for the link to the article about Baba Gurinder Singh. In my post I substituted that link for the small, indistinct photo of the Master I found elsewhere (Google didn’t direct me to The Tribune article).
I agree with just about everything said in the article. Baba Ji does indeed have a “radiant and magnetic personality.” My problem isn’t with Baba Ji, but with disciples who put him on a pedestal that is higher than I think the Master himself wants to rest on.

R u liberated? Do you who is lord !have u seen him yet.
If yes then show us right now or pack up from this blog. Also read the honest views left by Et and Randy. Also I think no body wants to waste the precious energy in discussion with you on the issueless issues.

Brian,
I don’t know if I saw God, but … I don’t know what I saw. No one would believe me if I tried to explain it. All I can say is aside from what I saw, I felt waves of, well, sounds “cliche” but I don’t know how to describe it other than a being, a source, or fountain of unending love for all things. It felt feminine. Years later I read up on Kabbalism, and there was a word…”Shekinah,” I think,… so now I think of the kabbalistic term for the feminine aspect of God. That’s what it felt like to me. But what do I know. Only felt it once. But I am forever changed.

Brian,
I just watched Tupac’s “Resurrection” film and I suggest it to others because of its deep honesty. But at one point he makes a good point that I’ve heard before. He said that just one year before he made it big he went into the exact same nightclub and he could not even get a date or anyone to look at him. After he was “recognized” as an artist, he said when he returned to this place, a whispering campaign started around the room and when girls would point him out to another girl and say “There’s Tupac” they would both light up and he would get the dates and the numbers he was after.
This sounds familiar because it is exactly what Gurinder said when he took the Gaddi, that no one would have given him a second look before when he lived in Spain among those Satsangis. I also went to Palm Springs and it was a great experience all around. I am not over the moon about Gurinder, but I do believe in the science of Sant Mat based on experience.
Net

You are not talking Sant Mat but garbled stuff. Sant Mat IS, I repeat IS a science. The path you describe is Bhakti Yoga, and Zen, you don’t seem to know what that is either. The comments about Gurinder in first class were rather Zen IMHO.
Zen is formless, boundless and limitless and cannot be said to be a science. If you want Zen then go to a Zen site.
Netemara

Hi. I liked your short article. I was initiated as a disciple of Maharaj Charan Singh many years ago as a tenager and had opportunity to see him many times at the Dera in India. I felt the experience was akin to group hypnosis of highly susceptible people. I still puzzle about the experience today and regard the group as having many cult like features. The group was particularly appealing to my husband who had a tendency towards mental illness.Unfortunately some of the unusual beliefs of satsangis masked his symptoms and he didn’t get help when he needed to. I feel very sad about it all.

i m from india i love baba ji i fell some time good but now m going back

Marg,
you wrote: “The group was particularly appealing to my husband who had a tendency towards mental illness. Unfortunately some of the unusual beliefs of satsangis masked his symptoms and he didn’t get help when he needed to.”
I can completely relate with you. And thats what I have been trying to tell everybody in this blog that RSSB is making people scrupulous with unusual beliefs and telling them that they have to follow those beliefs to be an ideal satsangi. Every newsletter from Vince Sevarese is full of this crap. Poor disciple filled with Bhakti gets scared that if they won’t follow those beliefs or vows, they will have to bear the wrath of their guru or it will be bad karma and they become anxious day by day till they get real anxiety disorders.
And God help those who already have tendencies for mental disease especially OCD (like my relative) and if such people join this sect, this sect helps in increasing their wrong beliefs and making their life hell. It is like giving drugs to already addicted person.
I hope your husband is doing better, my relative is on serious medication and is trying to improve but once in while an occasional meeting with other satsangi brings back his beliefs and his medication dose has to be increased.

Sapient,
If I may kindly suggest that you might try to get your mentally ill relative to just casually chant a little Hare Krsna now and again. The potency of chanting Hare Krsna will immediately begin to bring Sri Krsna’s grace and mercy, and will help to bring some real spiritual healing, peace, and happiness to your relative and to relieve the bewilderment and anxiety that RSSB doctrines, beliefs, and and influences have caused.
But don’t try to get your relative to change or immediately drop RS… Just let the process go very naturally and just try to get them to casually chant or sing the Hare Krsna mahamantra in addition to their regular RS practices. And if you do it together with them, it may actually be even easier for them. Just engaging in this simple and joyful activity will begin to really help to heal your relative’s mental troubles and delusions, and the anxieties that have been induced by the RSSB cult. Good luck.
Hare Krsna

Tao
I am watching with interest! Since you have come out of the closet, how do you rate your templeless status? Needless to say, Hare Krishna has fabulous temples in abundance. Are we to expect from you now onwards that the hare krshna mantra is the panacea for all ills and uncertainties? Sounds like hard core church/ temple to me.

Catherine,
I have never been in a “closet”… except maybe to get my coat of armour before the joust.
“how do you rate your templeless status?”
I never had any “temple” status to begin with. And except for the past seven years while living in my ashram, I have always been a wandering tantric-yogi-siddha-sadhu kind of Baba, not any kind of “temple” denizen.
“Hare Krishna has fabulous temples in abundance.”
So what? I have been to all sorts and kinds of temples in India, the Himalayas, and elsewhere, and not just Krishna temples. But I don’t hang out at temples. I am not interested in temples.
“the hare krshna mantra is the panacea for all ills and uncertainties”
Perhaps, but that can really only been known through direct experience.
“Sounds like hard core church/ temple to me.”
Fyi, chanting Hare Krsna does not necessarily have, or need to have anything to do with temples or churches.

Tao, churchless/( ref also to temple/ mosque etc) in the title of this blog refers to not having a specific orientation towards a belief system. You have a very specific one.

No, I don’t have any such “belief system”. You are intentionally and maliciously misrepresenting me. I have nothing more to discuss with people of your ilk.

My problem isn’t with Baba Ji, but with disciples who put him on a pedestal that is higher than I think the Master himself wants to rest on.
Posted by: Brian | June 14, 2005 at 03:43 PM
clearly speaks of your unsuccessfulness in sant mat even after spending 2.5 hours of sumiran daily for 30 years along with observing vows of sant mat. More than Master you were concerned about His disciples who constitute, in majority, worldly things seekers rather than the master. I was initiated in October 1981 and since then I have witnessed very many vicissitudes in spiritual as well as mundane life. Yet, the path has to be followed; neither the institution nor its organizers. After initiation, the link is between master and the disciple alone.
Kindly ignore this post, if it hurts you by any means.

We are told in Sant Mat not to be concerned with results. It is up to Mater’s grace and our karma. It is said spiritual progress could occur at any time, or maybe as long as four lifetimes. Now there is a comforting thought..no worries, in four lifetimes we are sure to be in Sach Khand, only 500,000,000 more repetitions of simran to go and three more birth and dying processes. No big deal in the overall scheme of things. We should just be happy to do this robotic repetition endlessly to the end of our days in the hope of some unknown/imaginary/hypothetical fairy-tale end. In the meantime we have the pleasure of sitting in satsang listening to the same old tired dogma we’ve heard hundreds of times before, gazing at the master while carrying dirt on our heads, and asking the waiter if there’s lard in the beans. All the master requires is our devotion. What has he done to earn it?..propagate a fairy tale and walk around in sparkling clean punjabis?
Just thought I’d try playing the role of a sarcastic ex-satsangi. Usually I don’t care.

“and asking the waiter if there’s lard in the beans”-T. Bob, as a strict vegetarian myself, I long ago stopped eating in non-vegetarian restaurants for 2 reasons:1) I got tired of asking that question to the staff about every possible food item that might contain animal products. 2)I got ‘burned’ a couple of times when I got served chicken or pork in supposedly vegetarian dishes!(Once I threw a greasy springroll that I bit into that contianed pieces of pork at the wall and stormed out!)

“THERE were once three little butterfly brothers, one white, one red, and one yellow. They played…………….and found the door wide open.” may be read in the following link.
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=OlcGood.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=30&division=div2
Those who have been initiated by whatever master of any so called cult or organization will have have the benefit of it depending upon the level of the Master. It is not a hearsay but my own experience with the people lying on the death bed.
” GOLD CAN NOT TARNISH, IRON CAN NOT BE EATEN BY TERMITES; WHATEVR SORT OF BE AN INITIATE OF A MASTER YOU ARE, WILL HAVE A LASTING BENEFIT”.
because at the time of death, the attention of the initiate goes nowhere but to his master alone.

Rakesh Bhasin wrote:
“Those who have been initiated by whatever master of any so called cult or organization will have have the benefit of it depending upon the level of the Master. It is not a hearsay but my own experience with the people lying on the death bed…because at the time of death, the attention of the initiate goes nowhere but to his master alone.”
This, no doubt, occurs especially after a life of devotion to a particular master. It may help the person die peacefully. But how can we, as objective viewers of the dying person, know the reality or eternal value of what they are experiencing? Is it an illusion? How can we know?
If I spend my life worshiping Hershey Chocolate Bars there is a good chance I will think about and have visions of Hershey Chocolate Bars at the time of death. Just because one has visions at death of a master does not mean this vision has any more value than that of a Hershey Bar.
Belief in a master requires us to suspend reason and have faith. This is one’s decision if they wish to do so. But they might want to keep in mind:
The Truth is with the knower, but no one can know if the knower knows it or not until they know it themselves.
In other words: The Truth may be with a master, but no one can know if the master knows the Truth or not until they know it themselves.
The Truth is yourself. You are the master.

Tucson Bob,
I thank you for your comments. I am glad indeed to observe the rare clarity in your thoughts. You have very clearly stated that “If I spend my life worshiping Hershey Chocolate Bars there is a good chance I will think about and have visions of Hershey Chocolate Bars at the time of death. Just because one has visions at death of a master does not mean this vision has any more value than that of a Hershey Bar.”
It reminds me an old lady visualising gold jewellary at the time of death and asking her relatives that her master had brought a basket of jewellary.
It all depends upon one’s intensity of association in life time.
http://www.sikhs.org/english/eg1.htm
There is vertually nothing soon after our birth that we have learnt without a teacher/ master. Either sombody has taught it or it is an out come of what we have learnt with others help.
I am unable to comment upon first disciple/first master on the earth, if somebody asks me.
You wrote:”In other words: The Truth may be with a master, but no one can know if the master knows the Truth or not until they know it themselves”.
I can only narrate, Kabir’s verse in this regard.
Kabir my mind has become pure like holy water;and now even God is also after me and says kabir, kabir.
As nothing on this earth can be learnt without a teacher/ master, so also the spiritulism can not be learnt without a teacher.
It is the law of the land.
Above all, I will say that in order to encourage ourself, we encourage others. And I am no exception in this regard.
I, once again compliment you for the clarity of thoughts you carry.

Tucson Bob wrote:
“Belief in a master requires us to suspend reason and have faith. This is one’s decision if they wish to do so. But they might want to keep in mind”:
If a teacher/ master can not resolve the doubts of his discples, he does not deserve to be called a teacher/ master…..He should be shunned at once. If you can not find a teacher/ master of your choice in your lifetime, the struggle to find one must continue. For without a teacher/ master nothing can be learnt. At least, I can not conceive it. I repeat that it is law of the land.
I am sorry as i could not respond in one go.
with love

Rakesh Bhasin:
Thanks for the compliment. You are a gentleman.
You wrote: “Kabir my mind has become pure like holy water;and now even God is also after me and says kabir, kabir.”
Many people love and respect Kabir, and he is respected as a wise master who taught the Truth. Even so, how can we know what Kabir really experienced? How can we know his teachings are the Truth except by his say-so? I am not challenging the Truth of your belief. I am just trying to show that it is faith. It may or may not be truth.
A teacher of art can show you painting techniques and you can verify their skill by observing their work.
How many masters are able to show you their realization? He can talk about it, teach about it, but can he show it to you? Does he speak in theories and beliefs that can’t be seen? Does he say, “have faith, this may take a lifetime or more to acheive.” What if at the end of your life, you discover your master was false?
Do what your heart tells you, but be honest with yourself.

Rakesh wrote:
“Those who have been initiated by whatever master of any so called cult or organization will have have the benefit of it depending upon the level of the Master. It is not a hearsay but my own experience with the people lying on the death bed. “WHATEVR SORT OF BE AN INITIATE OF A MASTER YOU ARE, WILL HAVE A LASTING BENEFIT” because at the time of death, the attention of the initiate goes nowhere but to his master alone.”
That’s utter hogwash, imo.

Rakesh wrote:
“There is vertually nothing soon after our birth that we have learnt without a teacher/ master. Either sombody has taught it or it is an out come of what we have learnt with others help. As nothing on this earth can be learnt without a teacher/ master, so also the spiritulism can not be learnt without a teacher. It is the law of the land.”
I absolutley diasgree. The notion that everything MUST BE and CAN ONLY BE learned from a “teacher/master” is ridiculously false. It is absurd. I and millions of ther people have learned much through direct experience without any such “teacher/master”. You must have been seriously brain-washed by Sant Mat.

Rakesh wrote:
“For without a teacher/ master nothing can be learnt. At least, I can not conceive it. I repeat that it is law of the land.”
You have no idea what you are talking about. You are clearly brain-washed by pseudo-spiritual dogma.

Tao,
I bow before the exalted state of your mind.
Trace back your own life history, you would reach to know somebody has taught you to walk, to talk, to read, to write……..Let us give them their due credit.
Hare Krisn

Tucson Bob:
It touchs my heart to observe your sincerity and the warmth that you emanate in writing the comments. Thanks for it.
You wrote: “Many people love and respect Kabir, and he is respected as a wise master who taught the Truth. Even so, how can we know what Kabir really experienced? How can we know his teachings are the Truth except by his say-so? I am not challenging the Truth of your belief. I am just trying to show that it is faith. It may or may not be truth”.
“A teacher of art can show you painting techniques and you can verify their skill by observing their work”.
If you read their original work, one finds their results on the inner journey; clearly stating the attributes of the places they describe which can be demonstrated in one’s own lifetime. Truely, with help of a teacher/master who professes it and not only speaks of it.
As far as faith is concerned, we can not board even a plane if we do not have faith in the pilot. Either faith builds up or wipes out with our experience. But our quest continues.
You wrote: “Do what your heart tells you, but be honest with yourself”.
I fully agree with you and shall love to persue the same.
with love

I’ve been an initiate of Babi Ji Gurinder Singh for over a decade. Before that I studied every known world religion, philosophy, cult, etc. I have had serious doubts about Sant Mat for years but you know what? it makes more sense than any other spiritual practice on the planet! It’s not a cult, it’s not a religion, it’s NOT a dogmatic brainwashing scheme, etc. It is a pure spiritual science that’s as ancient as time itself.
Even if Sant Mat was a made up spiritual fairy tale, I would still believe in it because it makes total logical sense!
The Master himself always says “For all you know I’m a fraud”. The Masters have never ever referred to themselves as God. They come here to teach that all souls can become God realized, we can all be God realized and there’s a scientific way to do it. God is already in all of us. Sant Mat is a pure spiritual science based on inner experience – not mind control or brainwashing, etc. Trust me I’m the most skeptical person on the planet. Trust me it’s REAL. This is a path about experience
nothing else. Also you can still be a Jew, a
Christian, A Muslim, A Mormon, A Buddhist, etc. and still be on this path. This is a path of meditation – this is not a religion!
You don’t have to give up your past or present beliefs to be on this path. This is a path of being in the NOW and God is just a label. God is light and sound, again the word God is just a label.

Now, this is where we miss Tao.
Tao should have been here now to give Eric a shock therapy.
Brian, this is the reason why I support Tao. His shock therapy was good. I am not good at that game though I tried it.

Well, I just could not resist commenting one mo’ time on this one. And I hope y’all don’t get your feathers all ruffled up due to my baaad-ass language…
About the previous commenter Eric’s comments concerning RS/Santmat:
It (the Radha Soami Mat) does not make more sense than any other spiritual practice on the planet. In fact, upon deep reflection, it does not make much sense at all. It appeals primarily to those who think there is somehwere else to go or attain, and a savior to take them there.
It is a cult, and it is a religion, and it is somehwhat of a dogmatic brainwashing scheme.
It is not a pure spiritual science, and it is not as ancient as time itself. In fact, it is not a science at all.
Why would any sensible intelligent person believe in a fairy tale and gamble or waste their life upon it? RS does not make logical sense, nor does believing in fairy tales make logical sense.
Why does the RS master say “For all you know I’m a fraud”? Simply because he knows that he is a fraud and is indirectly admitting it.
The Masters have indeed referred to themselves as God, albeit indirectly, and they have also directly referred to other masters as God. They also allow their followers and disciples to regard them as God incarnate.
They do not come here to teach that all souls can become God realized, because in RS doctine, not all souls are “marked”. Nor do they teach a scientific way to do it. It is entirely predicated upon faith and belief in the master and the method.
God is not “in” any of us. God is no longer a useful concept. ike everyting else, God is imaginary. We are all merely part of an incomprehesible Totality.
Sant Mat is not a pure spiritual science based on inner experience. No science is based upon inner experience.
Why should anyone trust you Eric? Your words and comments don’t really show you to be the most spiritually wise and reliable, or even the most skeptical person on the planet. And why should anyone trust a believer such as you who only pretends to be a skeptic?
You say that RS is real. Why should anyone trust you that the RS is real? How do you know that? What is real? And why should anyone gamble their entire life and spirituality merely on what a blind follower like you says?
This (RS) is not at all a path about experience. It is a path that is predicated primarily upon belief and faith. Where is this experience that you speak of?
You can not reay be a Jew, a Christian, a Muslim, a Mormon, or a Buddhist, and still be on the RS path. None of those religions recognize or accept Santmat gurus or Santmat doctrine.
It is a path of a type of meditation, but it is also fundamentally a belief system and a cult and minor religion.
You do have to give up your beliefs to be on the RS path. That is made quite clear in Sar Bachan. It is not a path of being in the now, and it also has many a label for God.
You do not absolutely know that God is light and sound. You only think and believe this because you have been told so by RS doctrine. You also do not realy know what God is, or even if there is such a thing as a God or a diety.
Before you go making any more unfounded assertions Eric, I sincerely suggest that you do some real serious deep reflection and contemplation upon how much you have actually blindly bought into the RS dogma and belief system.
And I doubt that if you had really studied the entire spectrum of the spiritual traditions and philosophies of the world as you say you have, that you would dismiss them all as inferior to Santmat. Therfore I must doubt that what you have said about RS has much basis in any real knowledge and/or experience. But you are certainly welcome to prove and show us otherwise.

Deepak (and Eric), I don’t think Eric needs shock therapy. Reality has plenty of power to correct erroneous beliefs.
Plus, I read what Eric wrote and didn’t find much that I disagreed with. I still meditate. I still entertain the hypothesis that our individual consciousness can merge with some sort of universal consciousness — which perhaps manifests as light and sound.
Most importantly, I once felt just as Eric did. So how can I criticize him, since he is me? I mean, I’ve believed many things in my lifetime, including the Sant Mat party line.
I’ve been an existentialist, a druggie, a semi-Christian (of the Yogic sort), a pseudo-Zen practitioner. Whatever I believed, it was more than just a thought. It felt right to me, and I wasn’t about to be talked out of it by some verbal “shock therapy.”
The way I see it, what’s shifted me in a different direction hasn’t been aggressive attacks on, or challenges to, my beliefs. It’s been gentle questioning — someone saying just the right thing at the right time that nudged me to examine whether I really knew what I thought was true.
Sure, there are lots of stories of Zen masters and others pushing people toward enlightenment with a loud cry or slap on the head.
But these people had accepted the authority of the Zen master. They were open to rough communication. In my experience, aggressive challenges normally just make people defensive and protective of their beliefs. They don’t bring about change unless the person trusts the challenger, as in psychotherapy or a Zen temple.

Brian,
I don’t know about you. But I do feel that if I had come across evolved persons very early in my life, I would not have wasted time with fairy tale ideologoies. That I had to waste so much time is either destiny or perhaps because I was a dimwit.
I want to ask you one question since you spent more than 30 years singlemindedly pursuing a fairy tale ideology called Sant Mat. Don’t you wish you had met someone who would wake you up from the deep sleep of RSSB very early in life? Don’t you think you could have saved the 30 plus years.
I am not saying that you have wasted 30 years. It might have been a part of your evolution since you were and are meditating on it. However, don’t you feel that if you had met someone like David Lane or Tao (or even me and you) very early in life, we would have saved time and concentrated on something else. Don’t ask me what the “else” is.

P.S. I just read tAo’s comment and also agree with most of what he said. Go figure. Like many RSSB devotees, Eric seems to have a “Sant Mat 2.0” perspective which isn’t really the party line. I agree with tAo that beliefs are a big part of Sant Mat as it is taught.
But some aspects of the RSSB meditation, taken just by itself, absent the visualization of the guru and repeating “five holy names,” that seems to be semi-scientific. Just sitting still, not thinking, and seeing what remains in consciousness.
So I think I see where Eric is coming from. I’d agree with tA0, though, that Eric might benefit by looking on RSSB meditation as a sub-set of a much broader approach to understanding what’s really real, and what isn’t, rather than an exceptional or unique spiritual path.

I think the above was Tao at his best, systematically, effectively breaking down and questioning/challenging Eric’s remarks without recourse to abusive methods or profanity. Now the ball is in Eric’s court to reply if he wishes. I’m all ears.
Eric said: “Even if Sant Mat was a made up spiritual fairy tale, I would still believe in it because it makes total logical sense!”
–Remarkable. What is so totally logical about Sant Mat that would convince a skeptic it is NOT a fairy tale?

A note of explanation about the name “tAo”:
The only reason that I continue using the pseudonym of “tAo” is because I have used it here for quite a long time, and if I changed it to another regular name such as Mark or John, or a spiritual name such as Sivanath, or a humorous name like Lord Such, then old-timers and new-comers alike would not easily recognize me, and they would not relate my new name to my old past comments.
So therefore, I concluded quite awhile ago that it is simply much easier and causes no confusion, if I simply continue to post with the pseudonym “tAo”. If that bothers Brian or anyone else, then I’m sorry. I don’t dance to other people’s drums.
And I also feel, what does a mere name matter anyway? Would it make any difference at all if I used a regular common name? I don’t think so.
I also feel that anyone can use any name they choose and doing so does not make them any less credible. A name or a pseudonym is simpy a way for others to identify us. Was it wrong or evasive or disingenuous for Samuel Clemens to use the pseudonym of “Mark Twain”? I don’t think so.
A real or a fictitious name is entirely a writer’s prerogative, and no one need argue otherwise. I don’t tell other people what name they should or should not use, and I so I don’t think that they have any right or business telling me that the name that I choose to identify myself with in real life, or on the internet, is somehow improper or disingenuous.
And for the commenter who speculated that I once used the name of “Benito Darkman”, I have to tell him that he is unfortunately sorely mistaken.

tAo, a name is just a word, a sound. I don’t care how people identify themselves on the Internet, or elsewhere. It just concerns me when anonymity facilitates behavior that would be less likely if a person’s identity was known.
What would each of us do if we were invisible? Interesting question. I suspect that our moral standards would change quite a bit, if we knew we couldn’t be caught doing this or that.
So which is our “real” moral standard — the public one or what we’d hold to if no one knew what we’re doing? Probably the latter. So in that regard anonymity just brings out what’s already there.

I agree with the concept that Brian put forth about using our real names on the internet, though i also understand tAo’s reason for using his pseudonym. For me the main point is that when I use my “real name”, I think it changes how I feel about what I write somehow….so I’ve decided to transition from my pen name to my real name….
Brian, you mention this concept of a Sant Mat version 2.0 somehow not being partyline. While you might be right, I am not sure that makes the sant mat 2.0 version any less authentic. If you go back and read the books, there are many passages that are strikingly nondogmatic. I don’t have the books in front of me, but I’ll try to recall a passage from memory.
One letter by Charan Singh (I think from Light on Sant Mat?) says something like:
“there is virtually no dogma (or belief) in Sant Mat, except that the Great Reality pervades everywhere, but can be contacted only under certain conditions.”
Now, it is those conditions that make people feel like Sant Mat is too dogmatic. Non-dualists, as far as I understand, wouldn’t disagree with the first part of the statement, it is the second they take stock with, that there have to be certain conditions for contact with reality to occur. But I think Sant Mat can be viewed as a science. If there really is sound resounding in our foreheads all the time, then that would be a fact. I can’t prove it, but if that is the case, then presumably, one could scientifically contact it only with practice, not hope or belief. The fact that one could do it without hope or belief is what makes it a science. Now I know belief and faith and hope are all involved in wanting to have the experience of merging with that sound, but isn’t there also hope and faith and belief and excitement when a scientist embarks on an experiment she is pretty sure of, using her reasoning and and intellect and intuition to embark on it?
I guess for me, the “judgment” in Sant Mat can’t be real, but is only a projection of our minds. Certainly there may be judgmental people in the organization, but if it bothers us, it only does so because we ourselves feel judged, or are sensitive to being judged. If that is the case, it is more interesting to ask ourselves why we feel that way than to blame others. How do we know Baba Ji is judgmental? We should all take responsibility for our own feelings. I am working on this. It aint easy, lemme tell you.

komposer/adam, I just came across these comments about anonymous Internet comments on NY Times web site. Interesting…
http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2008/03/03/business/media/03blog.html
Original story, even more interesting, is here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/03/business/media/03blog.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
Lots of religions claim to be a “science.” Scientology, for example. As I wrote about yesterday, a central hallmark of science is the feedback loops. Changing one’s mind when an experiment doesn’t confirm a hypothesis.
So if Sant Mat is a science, it has to allow for change. Question is: does it? I don’t see much evidence of this, but maybe you do.
Experiment: become a satsang speaker. At one of your talks, say “I’ve tried this as it’s taught by RSSB. I found it doesn’t work. So I recommend a different approach. Here it is.”
See how long you remain a speaker. So, is Sant Mat a science or a religion? Is it open to new evidence, or not?

Jesus is not “dead”. He rose from the dead. Read the Bible. Thank You. From Michele in Texas

hi friends .
there is a saying in india , if a river is flowing dont look for the source , or if there is a master dont look for what his origin is or what he is doing when not preaching because you will miss on what u were taught,
In bible we read that kane was uncondtional follower of god , and able asked manu questions to belive him , just imagine what would have god shown them extra ordinary , nothin just told them to belive, one belived and one was doubtful and we read that kane went to heaven,

Your “saying” is incredibly stupid and foolish. But go ahead and stick your own head down in the mud of ignorance if you like.

Hi Haresh,
Right, you should not look the origin of the master and have full faith in him, BUT wouldn’t it be better if you hold the NEW MASTER son of Master Gurinder Singh to take you to heaven.
Best wishes,

Don’t try to discuss sat mat and about Baba Ji on the internet.If you want answer and you have courage then ask Baba Ji.Can’t end his satsang or question or answer session, write letter to him.Discussing with disciples will take you no where.You experience these things, Fine!

Michele,
If Jesus is not dead, please direct me to his address so that I may see him in the flesh.

I’m sure George will love (or hate?) this one…
Eric says:
“Don’t try to discuss sat mat and about Baba Ji on the internet.If you want answer and you have courage then ask Baba Ji. […] write letter to him. Discussing with disciples will take you no where.”
— Hey Eric, I (and the rest of us here) will “discuss” ANY DAMN THING we like, including Santmat. And its none of your damn friggin business.
Who the hell do you thik you are to tell others what they can and cannot discuss here?
And btw, I desire no such “answer” from some ridiculous “Babaji” fool.
Your comment does nothing more than reveal how mentally constipated you are.
And if you don’t watch out… well we might have to send you over to see ole George… and trust me, you really don’t want that to happen. *grin*

George is here, front and centre. if u call i shall come.
I actually quite like what Eric said.
My biggest gripe with organised religion is that its a bunch of happy clappies that generally try and proselytize their faith onto others.
However, it seems with many of the mystic traditions including Sant Mat, there are some satsangis that take their tradition as an incredibly personal experience. They simply don’t want to share it.
These true satsangis don’t actually want their experiences analysed or discussed, whereas others of a more ‘rational’ bent do appear to want to analyse, rationalise and compare notes as it were. I know I would fall into the latter category. Perhaps however one might try to open their mind, our western conditioning does not allow it. On the other hand, perhaps those better equipped to have these mystical experiences are experiencing an illusion. I dont know, I guess no-one does.
I believe many of the heated arguments on here are between these two types, a dissillusioned rationally-based set of ex-satsangis against current satsangis who are often not interested in selling or imposing their beliefs, so much as defending them and the ppl or beliefs they hold so dear.
Personally, i don’t believe much should be taboo, everything should be discussed, however everyone knows that if one wants a meaningful dialogue there are certain basic forms of etiquette one should stick to.
Call me ole-fashioned but calling someone or their god a ‘fuckpig’ is unlikely to facilitate such a dialogue.

Let me put it another way.
Say for example you are dearly in love with your nearest and dearest, he/she is the most beautiful perfect lovely creature in existence.
Speaking personally, there is no ways i would discuss such a woman or my feelings for her with a bunch of unknown repropates on the internet. I am sure most of you feel the same way, and we’d all be extremely angry if others attacked her and called her the whore from babylon and decried our love for that person as being irrational.
So perhaps there are certain things that remain personal or at the very least need to be addressed with a little more tact.
If everything is on the table and we can discuss anything we damn will want, then perhaps the more rational ex-satsangis would be willing to describe the sexual urges and experiences with their dearly beloved.
Its just pretty poor form, not so?

“Speaking personally, there is no ways i would discuss such a woman or my feelings for her with a bunch of unknown repropates on the internet. I am sure most of you feel the same way, and we’d all be extremely angry if others attacked her and called her the whore from babylon and decried our love for that person as being irrational.”
“If everything is on the table and we can discuss anything we damn will want, then perhaps the more rational ex-satsangis would be willing to describe the sexual urges and experiences with their dearly beloved.”
—Very poor analogy. No One here, needs to know, or is asking the details of another’s sexual experiences. Discussing meditation (spiritual)experiences is proper. Exchanging information on nutrition and other topics is appropriate. This is a blog, where such exchanges take place.

Maybe, but my point is not what ppl are asking to be discussed, rather the manner in which its discussed. While some might feel its perfectly acceptable to have a go at a satguru or call Babaji a ‘pigfuck’ and so on, others love babaji and don’t want to have him discussed in this manner, its considered extremely inappropriate.

George, I agree that courteous discourse is preferable to profanity (which, when taken to extremes, is the recourse of those who have don’t have an argumentative leg to stand on and are reduced to ranting).
However, if someone doesn’t want to have their feelings offended, being devoted to a guru or other religious leader, they shouldn’t venture onto a churchless blog. Similarly, if someone is tender-hearted toward animals and doesn’t like to have them killed for food, taking part in a Cattlemen’s Association forum will expose them to some ridicule.

yes, good point, i’m going for a steak.

The way AO+ expressed his feeling in very nice manner and as a good human being. He displayed he is having good etiquette. Don’t follow to anyone else, Just follow him and it is sure that you will be heading in right direction.

beautiful comments! I myself am an initiate of RSSB. Being a scientist myself, some people ask me whether I believe in God. After becoming a scientist, I believe more in god than ever. Just like a current passing through wires, we cannot see the electron movement, but it is there..similarly there is another dimension that we cannot see. We are seeing miracles day in day out of our lives! A ton of metal pieces flying in the air, things shown live on TV from thousands and thousands of miles away..I mean if we had told this to somebody in the previous century that we would have airplanes and tvs..they would call us nuts! Now these were man made miracles,however we put to use laws already present. Again..remember..we discover laws (force of attraction between planets etc), we DO NOT invent laws. Therefore it would be safe to say there is a higher authority making these laws..suspending planets in space and make them rotate at an almost fixed rate.
As for RSSB being bogus etc..the reason why we believe in TVs and airplanes today are because we see them since man is more intelligent than what it used to be. Our intellect was not there before, hence we would have been called idiots to believe man will fly in metal etc. Maybe, just maybe, our intellect is still not there for us to realize what this higher authority (GOD) is. Dont just disbelieve since we are not smart enough to understand…I say try meditation according to RSSB and see for yourself..you got nothing to lose or gain. Also, Guru Nanak, now I mean centuries ago, stated there are countless planets and universe in the holy Granth..guess what people believed then..they said NO there is only one and we are living on it. Heck some idiots didnt know that the earth was round, they thought it was flat. Anyhow, guess what we are discovering today..there are indeed countless planets and universes. Now how does a man, many centuries ago know this..he had no means of going in space! He claims he did this through meditation. Soul could travel out of body and see..he challenged people to try meditation and see for your self. I say…what the heck..lets try it!
I have noticed most of our disbeliefs come because we were brought up to believe in something different or again we are not smart enough. Kind of like Lord Ganesh statues drinking milk. This happened all over the world. People who fed the statue the milk (videos on internet), saw the milk disappear in the spoon! People who tried at home..white people..said the same thing happend..they bought statues and tried it at home..still…McMaster University professors went and inspect a couple of the statues..since some materials soak liquid..however they concluded that was not the material but if it was, it would have reached its saturation point. Meanwhile the statue was drinking tonnes! But a lot of people who think in the box denied..without logic since this defies logic. So I urge people, some things in science defy logic, but we dont reject! We continue to work and try to find logic in it.
Sorry for the essay, but I thought It might be best to hear it from a scientist of what we encounter.
Thanks all.

Raj,
Let’s say that someone tells you that there is a place with a beautiful Majic Bird that makes you very happy when you hear its song.
Not only is the Magic Bird supposed to be so very, very beautiful, but its song will cause you to be in a state of perpetual bliss and you will never have any suffering again.
The problem is that this place where the Bird lives is supposed to be very difficult to get to and it is hard to find anyone who knows how to do it. You go around for years asking if anyone knows how to get to the Bird.
Finally you find a guy called the Captain who says he knows how to get to the Bird and that you are very lucky to find him because people with his special knowledge are very rare.
He guarantees that he can take you in a special ship across a vast sea to the place where the Bird lives. But first you must do a lot of work fixing up the ship…cleaning the hull, varnishing the decks, lubricating the winches, patching the sails and much more.
After many years of working on the ship you feel that it must be ready for the voyage, but the Captain says that no, the ship is not ready yet and that it needs more work below deck, securing the berths and hatches and fixing the galley and sealing some leaks.
You work on the ship for many more years and say to the Captain that surly the ship is now fit for the voyage to the Magic Bird.
But the Captain says no, its not ready yet. You begin to get suspicious and ask the Captain if he is stalling because he really doesn’t know how to sail the ship to the Magic Bird.
You begin to think that you are doing all this work for nothing, but the Captain is very nice and charming and so many other people working on the ship seem to be happy and have faith in the Captain. So you keep on working with a hopeful attitude.
Finally after more work and still no voyage you ask the Captain to show you that he really has charts to where the Magic Bird lives and to introduce you to other people he has taken to see the Magic Bird.
The Captain says that even if he showed you the charts you wouldn’t understand them and the people he has taken to see the Magic Bird are sworn to secrecy. They aren’t allowed to say anything about the Magic Bird and if the Captain took them to it.
You accept that and keep on working on the ship until one day you fall ill and begin to die. You beg the Captain to begin the voyage as you are at the end of your life and want to know if the Magic Bird is real even though by now it is too late to turn back and begin work on another ship. So far all you have heard are stories and promises and now the end is near.
You tell the Captain that you are very worried that all the faith you have placed in him has been for nothing. He reassures you that even if you die before reaching the Magic Bird that the ship will surely then be ready for the voyage and take you there.
Finally the end comes and you draw your last breath. As you slip away you wonder if the ship has set sail yet. You think you see the Captain there but even he is beginning to fade along with the ship you worked so very hard on.
Now this may seem to be a very gloomy end to the story, but it is very important that any sailor going on a big voyage has a real Captain who knows his way. He has to think hard about it and be very sure that the Captain is truly capable.
Do you know for sure your Captain knows the way? Do you know for sure there is a Magic Bird? Of course you hope so.
Now at this point this story is pretty gloomy and sad and may leave you feeling a little sad and disheartened, but Part 2 of this story is much better.
It has been told many times in many places, even on this blog. Part 2 has been written in many books and told by many people but you never really understand part 2 until you write it yourself.
And the funny thing is you find at the end of the story that there never was a writer in the first place and that the land of the Magic Bird being far, far away was just a fantasy.
The Magic Bird is what you are.

lol, a statue drinking milk, come off it Raj, science my ass. Who are Macadams university, are they scientologists?
I have never really understood when religions try use science to explain god.
Electricity is an age-old chestnut. So is magnetism and gravity. We know these forces exist because they all cause observable effects. But there is no observable effect for God. If there was you would win the nobel prize.
Electricity is fully explainable by science, charge and current can be measured. Even in prehistoric times charge would cause observable effects such as lightning, electric eels and static discharge after the caveman rubbed his wooly mamoth. Magnetised splinters point toward magnetic north and the apple falls to earth at a certain speed governed by gravity.
You may say God is the cause of gravity, magnetism or electricity – but i would say what is the proof for that? All explainable observable phenomena. What if the universe is the ultimate reality and there is no god, the universe is all there was and ever shall be, the prime mover?

LOL…my goodness..closed minded..just like I said..afraid to explore..and scientoligists????? First become a PHD and then step up to the plate with me..lol. And you all seemed to miss the concept about the current in wire. Yes it could be measured, but morons, do you have any idea when we started realizing that we could measure this. Since the start of humanity..for you slow folks..that was long time ago..it tooks us sooooo fucking long to learn about current..then use them..then measure. Until then, people like you would have shot down the idea saying, “get off it”. LOL..but we are lucky, people still continued to research. As a matter of fact, thinking of a story to compete with this beautiful “magic bird” story, think of of the world as just starting..we have dumbass cavemen ruling the world..and you are only one that understands science. If you were to go tell him about current, measurements and so on, do you have any idea what reception you are going to get? Just like morons that believed the earth was flat and apparently killed anybody that said otherwise. I mean come on people, open up your minds..lets not be afraid of exploring. Think for a second, what disadvantage is it to believe in higher authority..we as humans..dumbasses made all these laws and posts and made other humans, just like us, as higher authorities. Judges, policemen etc..LOL..I understand there is no proof of god, but easy question is what proof is there that there is no god? Age old question isnt it? We logic all these bullshit..prime mover shrime mover, we prove to the world we got so much time on our hands that we think of dumbass stories as “magic bird”, how about we try to put our time to use..now theres an idea! Dont need to be “scientologist” for that one..man..that cracked me up! Oh and by the way, people who are researching as PHD’s in unversities, in the fields Mechanical and Materials are studying a part of science, there is no such thing as an all out sciencist. Each scientist majors in something, not everything and anything. Looks like not much schooling goes on anymore.
Anyways, dumbasses like you are required, which is the reason why we are called smart researchers and you pay tax money to pay our monster salaries…LOL

Oh yeah..no need to reply to my messages from now on as I am not coming on to this site. The last forum that I was on that had great discussions. No generalized comments and more to the point. Hence I agreed on some parts and the other folks agreed..which made it a constructive arguments. Here, this site are for morons egging each other on and leading to…god knows where. Also, if I do meditate and come up with nothing, and you all sit at homes typing up shit on internet and end up with nothing..seems to me we are all in the same boat regardless..the only exception is that meditators seem to become calm and relaxed..where as you all run after shit you cant have and die trying..hehehe..again..we need losers to appreciate the winners! Good luck all..some I wont be seeing since they probably will babble there way to hell..but some I meet you heaven if I get lucky!
I am outtie.

Raj, obviously you don’t much about science. Usually it isn’t possible to prove that something doesn’t exist — like fairies, goblins, or God. Rather, demonstrable evidence has to be provided that something does exist. Like you said, there is no proof of God.
It isn’t up to skeptics to prove that God doesn’t exist. Instead, it’s up to you to prove that God does exist, and that your other claims are true. After you were challenged, you decided to stop commenting here, which shows that you aren’t as openminded as you like to think you are.
When you have some evidence for your blind faith, come back and share it. Until then, thanks for providing another example of how religious true believers talk a good game, but can’t play it.

How do you know i’m not a PhD, but one don’t need a degree in anything to realise its bullshitting value when statues are drinking milk.
Tell you what, you prove that, and I reckon you win the Novel Prize and I be first to apologise for my skepticism.
There’s openminded and then plain looney tunes.
I dont know who the dumbass cavemen are, but they the sort that believed in living statues and such crap.
Thanks for the laugh.

as for researchers, if my hard-earned bucks are going towards paying for crap research like that, i’m write to the IRS and my local senator, pappy horndog snr.
what a disgrace?
Next, these ‘smart scientists’ will be researching Uranus. Disgraceful.

[Note: the profane, insulting, contentless-comment referred to by George was deleted because it violated this blog’s comment policies — Blogger Brian]
so what highway gambler is saying is that he too believes in milk-drinking statues, actually no what he is saying is twatty twitty titty gooble dee goob…fart.
yes yes fools united…to the end shall we go, arm in arm, waltzing matilda.

Hi All
I have read through posts here and I am really happy to come across different point of views.
Many here are trying to figure out about that abnormal, extraterrestrial spiritual experience here in these forums. Some say its not describable in words. While there are some who are just dismissing the whole thing as a ‘magical bird’ fable.
Problem is we are not adopting right attitude and approach towards seeking answers.
Right attitude – We are just trying to fight battles of ego from domains of our preconceived notions.
Right approach- We are trying to figure out as a group. We are trying to hang on with pack to corroborate things to satisfy our intellect. In fact, we have to seek our own individual answers.
Rather than spending —- here typing detailed arguments/counter-arguments, we should simply shut out the world and delve within (meditation) to seek answers. Even Babaji says no one can do something what the seeker has to do for himself. Not even Master will sit in meditation for you. He cannot simply open his fist and show us the ultimate truth.
It would be really helpful to ourselves if have the right attitude and adopt right approach i.e. sit in meditation. Use this forum just for sort of notes-exchanging. But ultimately it is only meditation ( that’s what I have concluded for myself).
Even my faith has had rollercoaster experiences, vacillated between absolute faith to extreme opposite. But let me declare that I belong to the pro-RS camp in the context of the debates going-on over here. I would like to share my perspective on 4 broad issues (I think) that I categorized here as follows:
1. RS cult authoritarianism.
2. Contradicting paradoxes.
3. where are proof of stories.
4. Babaji’s GIHF/ lack of GIHF.
1. RS authoritarianism – Its not RS authoritarianism to talk about that one GOD, His one story, the one single way to realize him which was designed by one himself. In fact RS tries to show its flexibility in terms of corroborating this one ultimate truth from different holy books keeping in mind our diverse backgrounds.
2. Contradicting paradoxes – Why God created this place? Why he sent away souls? Why if we (Adam& Eve) were not supposed to taste forbidden fruit (poison/sin) then why the fruit itself was created by God?
These paradoxes have even had put my faith into ultimate tests of tenacity. But the conclusion I drew was – I am not in the right sphere/ realization level to comprehend these answers. Because the plane of truth at present on which we are standing is ‘plane of duality’. This plane is designed such a way that the best of human minds remain entwined in its baffling self-contradicting logics. The fodder for our mind(ego) in this plane is logics. The human logics can never be used to realize that God existing above this realm. Hence our minds feels frustrated. This is how this world was meant to be as designed by ‘Kaal (mind consciousness)’.
So only solution for us is to raise ourselves (consciousness/understanding) above this realm through meditation.
There’s a book by sant Kabir (the courageous sword carrier who cut himself free from snarls of kaal) who sheds light on this kingdom of “kaal” in his book ‘Anurag Sagar’. If we read this book with right seeker attitude then we find most of our answers falling in this category. However for those who don’t have patience to read through book can have peek view through this PPT video on ‘Youtube’.
This video is based on the Anurag Sagar of kabir, which deals with the mystery of this kingdom of Kaal. How it all began?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3aE-_q-uvU
(I would like to share my perspective on rest two categories in the next post. Thank You.)

But who says the answers are within?
Perhaps they are outside.
When a baby is born he/she has no ego or knowledge to speak of, in fact baby is totally and utterly useless and dependent on external parents to teach baby.
We’ve had mystics since time immemorial and none of them could explain electricity or the motion of the planets or why there is such complexity of life on earth.
Instead man has provided these answers. Not one person, but a whole host of people who have learnt and assembled an external body of knowledge using others knowledge and their own intellect to make gradual insights, which builds on this body of knowledge.
Hawkings, Einstein, Newton, Leibniz did not go within their soul to discover answers, they used the external manmade body of science to do so and their intellects to add to it.

George
—————————————–
But who says the answers are within?
Perhaps they are outside.
Instead man has provided these answers. Not one person, but a whole host of people who have learnt and assembled an external body of knowledge using others knowledge and their own intellect to make gradual insights, which builds on this body of knowledge.
Hawkings, Einstein, Newton, Leibniz did not go within their soul to discover answers, they used the external manmade body of science to do so and their intellects to add to it.
——————————————
Because Mystics have repeatedly said this throughout the ages. The key door to that ultimate truth lies at the tenth door, at the eye center.
Let me share with you another interesting aspect worth pondering.
Which part of Human mind has found all the answers (Gravity, Relativity) found till now by the greatest scientists as quoted by you above?
It’s the head. And pay attention to this fact that it was possible because they concentrated with their hand on the forehead. What does this indicate that all the answers lie here at the human forehead, specifically at the eye center. It certainly still contains many more unexplored treasures!
Now to find answers to things which we can witness or understand with our present senses like- why the apple falls on the ground?
We use references of things in this plane of truth. We contemplate on things of this world to find answers related to them. And Humans have just used 5-10% of mind to find answers to these.
Now what if take this concentration/contemplation to a higher level. I.e. we shut out our senses, we dull our external thoughts to the point that everything becomes still in our mind absolutely. (possible in meditation)
We are bound to discover/ understand something that is hidden from us till now!
This is moment when our that consciousness (dead till now) awakens. and then it has infinite things to explore / find.
Theoretically I would like to summarise as follows:
Bring the mind scattered ∞ in this world to

absolute 0

then you have ∞ things to explore at other end.
This is what mystics have encouraged us/challenged us to do.

Dear Gaurav – it is extremely unlikely the Anurag Sagar was actually authored by the historical person known as Kabir.
An analysis of style, content & message has, for me, made it almost 100% certain that they (Kabir’s ‘official’ works in the Granth Sahib & Bijak) were not written by the same person who wrote Anurag Sagar.
Unless they had some sort of brain damage in between writing them(personal joke :oP)
If you want to know more about the REAL ‘courageous sword carrier’ that was Kabir – read the Bijak.
It may not be as similar to the Radhasoami notions of ‘Satguru’ as you suspect….
Cheers.

manjitd, the Bijak of Kabir indeed is a wonderful set of writings. I quoted from my copy in a couple of blog posts:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2006/07/the_glory_of_be
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2005/11/kabir_a_patron_
Sample:
“Pandit, you’ve got it wrong.
There’s no creator or creation there,
no gross or fine, no wind or fire,
no sun, moon, earth, or water,
no radiant form, no time there,
no word, no flesh, no faith,
no cause and effect, nor any thought
of the Veda. No Hari or Brahma,
no Shiva or Shakti, no pilgrimage
and no rituals. No mother, father
or guru there. Is it two or one?
Kabir says, if you understand now,
you’re guru, I’m disciple.”
Beautiful. No faith. No radiant form. No guru. No rituals. No creator. This shows how distant from the Bijak of Kabir so many other interpretations of Kabir are.

gaurav,
I totally agree with you that all answers have been made by the head, since it is only the human brain that does any thinking and that is contained in the head.
Their may be a third eye or a soul or heart insight, but there is no proof of that.
Moreover, it was a certain part of man’s mind, which allowed these insights, his intellect. They did not happen in a void. Picasso did not disclose the laws of relativity and neither did Kabir, instead it took a man steeped in scientific training to make such insights, and he did so in acccurare scientific language not in metaphorical hazy language.
If there is indeed another part of the mind, other than the intellect, responsible for all of man’s greatest insights, then why did Picasso uncover cubism while Einstein uncovered relativity?
Its because Einstein’s intellect and natural disposition was towards science, while Picasso’s brain talents and training were geared towards art.

george
I totally agree with you that all answers have been made by the head, since it is only the human brain that does any thinking and that is contained in the head.
Their may be a third eye or a soul or heart insight, but there is no proof of that.
————————————-
Yes there are no factual measurable scientific proofs to these things.
This was one of the biggest problem that affected me also until sometime back that-
I wanted all proofs, logics laid thread bare before me before I would even think about wetting my toe in the waters of mysticism. I went round and round in the realms of logical explanation until one day I realized why not should I listen to the words of wise men.’
For a change, for some days I gave rest to my mind. I opened my mind and heart to empty out preconceived notions. With this right seeker attitude I listened and read what the wise mystics have all along been telling. what ever went into my mind, I accept it with a full stop and simply paid no attention to the question marks(?).
Gradually the roots of my faith found its hold, I discovered that I was ready to travel on the path of self realization. To find proofs for myself.
Babaji said in one of the discourse, how can I explain you things in the language that you understand.
The predicament is similar to like a dumb is made to taste the nectar and he is asked whats the taste like. The dumb even though feels enjoys the taste cannot describe it in comprehensible language. He would only utter some gibberish in its praise.
———————————–
Its because Einstein’s intellect and natural disposition was towards science, while Picasso’s brain talents and training were geared towards art.
Einstein explored the left part of brain (logical, scientific mind) while Piccasso explored the right part of the brain( creative mind).
Well my personal disposition is to explore mind towards center/absolute zero.
Beyond that I don’t have any concrete proof as yet before me but I have the testimonials of praise by the wise men who have gone there earlier.
Theres absolutely no harm to me to harbor that unconditional faith, humility in me to keep the patience and try. Today I have all the world talks in my mind. Gradually I want to turn my mind off to this chatters and then I want to allow myself to turn speechless after I discover my ultimate truth. I want that silence, that peace.

Thank you Manjit
for your inputs/suggestions.
I would try to follow on your suggested readings in near future.

Gaurav wrote: “Rather than spending [time] here typing detailed arguments/counter-arguments, we should simply shut out the world and delve within (meditation) to seek answers.”
–Then why are you on this blog? In Sant Mat there is a tendency by some to conceptualize “within” as an actual place somewhere inside us or inside our awareness that is different in nature from our durrent experience. There comes a time when one realises that “within” and “without” are the same thing. How does a drop of water go inside itself, and what would be different about the water inside the drop from the water on the surface?
Gaurav said: “Even Babaji says no one can do something what the seeker has to do for himself. Not even Master will sit in meditation for you. He cannot simply open his fist and show us the ultimate truth.”
–The question is, how do we know that there IS an ultimate truth to go to if the master can’t open his fist and show it to us? How do we know he knows it? Again..How do we know he knows it? How do we know he is a master? How do we know what there is to be a master of?
However, I agree that whatever there is or isn’t to find out we have to experience it ourselves, or better…without ourselves.
Gaurav said: “Even my faith has had rollercoaster experiences, vacillated between absolute faith to extreme opposite.”
–At least you admit it is faith. If you are comfortable with that faith who should argue with you, except those who you hope to convince of the correctness of your faith?
Gaurav said: “1. RS authoritarianism – Its not RS authoritarianism to talk about that one GOD, His one story, the one single way to realize him which was designed by one himself. In fact RS tries to show its flexibility in terms of corroborating this one ultimate truth from different holy books keeping in mind our diverse backgrounds.”
–You are assuming there is this one ultimate truth. What if it is just an idea?
And as far as words in holy books corroborating RS teachings are concerned, it is easy to interpret them to suit one’s ideals. I mean, certain Muslims take passages out of the Koran to literally mean that the heads of infidels should be cut off, but is that what the words really mean? I don’t know. Do you? Does anyone?
Gaurav said: “… Because the plane of truth at present on which we are standing is ‘plane of duality’. This plane is designed such a way that the best of human minds remain entwined in its baffling self-contradicting logics.
–That is your experience of this plane, but others may experience it without the duality of subject-object separation. Maybe the truth you seek elsewhere is right where you are and not in some other “plane”.
Gaurav wrote: “The fodder for our mind(ego) in this plane is logics. The human logics can never be used to realize that God existing above this realm.”
–You may be right but that is only an assumption since you do not even know what God is, only what you have been told by someone who may, or may not, know what God is.
Gaurav wrote: “Hence our minds feels frustrated. This is how this world was meant to be as designed by ‘Kaal (mind consciousness)’.”
–It may appear to some minds that the world is a delusion of an entity called Kal who is mean and wants to deceive us, but it may also be that the delusion is an idea of a mind perceiving a harmonious, non-dual world incorrectly. It may be that everything is just fine, AS IT IS.
Gaurav said: “So only solution for us is to raise ourselves (consciousness/understanding) above this realm through meditation.”
–Without subject-object relation, what is above or below? Could it be that the reality of which you speak is fully present in this moment?
Gaurav wrote: “There’s a book by sant Kabir (the courageous sword carrier who cut himself free from snarls of kaal) who sheds light on this kingdom of “kaal” in his book ‘Anurag Sagar’.”
–These “holy” books make it all seem so dramatic. It’s no big deal. It’s staring you in the face as you. Let your face slip away and just be the staring and these difficulties go up in smoke. Poof!
Gaurav said: “If we read this book with right seeker attitude then we find most of our answers falling in this category.”
–If there is an answer, there must be a question. That is duality or split mind. When it is seen that the question is the answer, whole mind, then you will be free.
Gaurav wrote: “How it all began?”
–You have been reading only certain types of “holy” books. Others say there never was an “it” to have begun in the first place.
I liked the quote Blogger Brian provided from the Bijak of Kabir that I want to repeat it here:
“Pandit, you’ve got it wrong.
There’s no creator or creation there,
no gross or fine, no wind or fire,
no sun, moon, earth, or water,
no radiant form, no time there,
no word, no flesh, no faith,
no cause and effect, nor any thought
of the Veda. No Hari or Brahma,
no Shiva or Shakti, no pilgrimage
and no rituals. No mother, father
or guru there. Is it two or one?
Kabir says, if you understand now,
you’re guru, I’m disciple.”
He says it much better me.

“For a change, for some days I gave rest to my mind. I opened my mind and heart to empty out preconceived notions. With this right seeker attitude I listened and read what the wise mystics have all along been telling. what ever went into my mind, I accept it with a full stop and simply paid no attention to the question marks(?).
Gradually the roots of my faith found its hold, I discovered that I was ready to travel on the path of self realization. To find proofs for myself.”
–Nothing wrong with opening one’s mind and heart to empty out preconceived notions. However preconceived notions could possibly be: right seeking attitudes, wise mystic tellings, path travelings and self-realization proofs. Don’t forget, I’m not finding fault.

Guarav,
No problem with an openmind, but fools like ashy and raj are telling me i’m a fool for not being openminded enough to believe in milk-drinking statues.
Anything is possible, in an alternative universe perhaps there are statues that sip milk. Perhaps there is a god and seven astral planes with zeus, thor, mickey mouse and belzebub – But the reality is that there is no proof for any of this.
What there is proof for is Picasso’s art and Einstein’s science, both products of the human mind built upon the mastery and training of the external knowledge provided by previous human minds.
As for the mystics, i think there may very well be something there, but I ask you quite simply what have the mystics actually predicted or done for mankind?
There are atheists who are vegetarians, non-racist, pacifist, humanitarian, arties that encourage love to all things and spend happy fullfilling lives in the servitude of others – what can such an atheist possibly learn from a mystic on how to live life?
No mystic has ever answered any of science’s questions or even the bigger questions of human existence. In fact, they wont even discuss the experience itself and say it is indescribable. So if the experience is indescribable how can they help humanity and how can they give any answers? And if they do have the answers, why all the secretive stuff?
Since you are a follower of the mystics, I presume you are privy to such answers such as what is the meaning of life? What happens after death? Why are we put into a physical realm only to be taught yearning for a spiritual realm? Why is their suffering or death or life at all? How did life begin? Does all life also possess an afterlife?
Most importantly, on what are these answers based, upon which i am too unquestioningly rely like the openminded believer in milk-sipping statues?
Instead I, and other skeptics, are chasticed for asking such questions. We are blamed for using logic, for using our naturally-given intellects.

I understand what George is saying in his comment above and his question is a good one:
“As for the mystics, i think there may very well be something there, but I ask you quite simply what have the mystics actually predicted or done for mankind?”
–Aside from subjective, esoteric mumbo jumbo and the hope of something beyond this transient physical life and the sense of security that may bring to some people, I would say that most mystics offer little other than dreams to ponder and dreams to chase.
However, there are some mystics/teachers/people on the street who help some people to see whatever truth/reality there is to see… for themselves. To those people this truth and the peace it might bring may be of great value even if it cannot be directly conveyed to others and only sensed or felt in their presence.
Could that be what some mystics have done for mankind, unmeasurable and unquantifiable that it may be?

Thats exactly as i understand it Tucson and phrased more neatly than i did – but what peace is it that these ppl get in their mystic’s prescence?
But even that is alot more believable than some of this other pap like an intricate 7-planed cosmology or milk-sipping rock.
Is the 7-planed RS cosmology a metaphor which perhaps rather than describing spiritual planes is describing different psychological regions of the mind as it perhaps progresses deeper into itself?

George asked: “Is the 7-planed RS cosmology a metaphor which perhaps rather than describing spiritual planes is describing different psychological regions of the mind as it perhaps progresses deeper into itself?”
–Again George makes a good point because I hear that the current RS master, Gurinder Singh, is putting the metaphor spin on the inner regions and saying that they are not acutal locations, dimensions or whatever you might imagine them to be. Rather he says they are symbolic.
This is counter to the teachings as they are presented in the RS literature and by the former masters themselves.
Personally, I don’t care but if I were a devotee this would be a matter of some concern. Which is correct, the new master’s teaching or the old?
If the old is incorrect then by what genuine authority does the current master draw his appointment since by his own statement the inner regions are not real as taught by his master. Was his master (Charan Singh) wrong or misleading the followers? If so, does that mean Charan Singh was not a genuine master and therefore did not have the ability to “annoint” the current master?
Who, then, is the current master Gurinder Singh? Or, who was Charan Singh?
Lots of questions are raised by this. Glad I’m not a member of the club anymore.

tucson
I acknowledge your efforts to take my statements one by one and offer your counterviews on same.Thank you,But am sorry that I can take them just at literature level and not beyond this forum.It is in my self-interest. Because I dont want to carry any baggage of emboldened ego(by winning debates/arguments) or bad after taste in mouth or mind. These are detrimental on my path of faith.
Further as to why am here in this blog when I had myself earlier suggested to shutdown net and go within.
Because I wish to express my solidarity with my fellow seekers who are in the waters of mysticism but suffer pangs of wavering faith just like me.
Their faiths shiver may be due to thoughts of their own minds or by comments of viewers on the poolside. The poolside viewers who themselves would never try jumping into water or may have had made unsuccesful attempts earlier and have given up their efforts.
You may as well take my comments just at any literature level. Now that literature may also belong to trash.
Thank you.

ah so it comes down to faith as per usual.

What have the mystics done for the Humanity

George wrote
As for the mystics, i think there may very well be something there, but I ask you quite simply what have the mystics actually predicted or done for mankind?
———————————-
Tucson wrote
I understand what George is saying in his comment above and his question is a good one:
“As for the mystics, i think there may very well be something there, but I ask you quite simply what have the mystics actually predicted or done for mankind?”
Could that be what some mystics have done for mankind, unmeasurable and unquantifiable that it may be?
No mystic has ever answered any of science’s questions or even the bigger questions of human existence. In fact, they wont even discuss the experience itself and say it is indescribable. So if the experience is indescribable how can they help humanity and how can they give any answers? And if they do have the answers, why all the secretive stuff?

——————————————
When Jesus came on this earth, his call was for freedom. He didn’t come to make this place the heaven for people. He talked about leading people to their real home out of the miseries of this action/reaction kingdom.He came as a shepherd to collect his flock of sheeps to head them back home.
It has never been mission of any mystic to make this place any better to leave. In fact they live life untouched, aloof from things happening around. They remain sad to stay here and get never tired of reminding people. That’s what is there mission.
They normally never interfere with any of the natural action/reaction phenomenon which is the universal law just like gravity in this plane. In other words they never do any miracles. Because they have to honor the laws applicable here. Otherwise God would be dishonouring laws made by himself for this plane of existence. Figuratively speaking he would be dishonoring the promise given to kaal for his kingdom.
Evangelist does good for humanity. He brings forth temporary relief to the people he touches. and he gets rewarded in equal measure in this re/action kingdom.
while a mystics lives a temporary life here away from his real home and thanklessly , tirelessly works to remind people about their actual home.Faithless People called them crazy. Jesus was nailed to death. Sikh gurus were tortured and killed by Mughals. Mira bai was unperturbed by the material wealth around here.
These noble souls provided panacea to humanity they touched. They did not provide any temporary relief. They have been doing the most noble charity possible for mankind.
And The Mystics have tried to describe whats the experience is like. What things they have witnessed. Read “Sar Bachan” of Swamiji Maharaj. He has tried to describe in detail. But are we ready to listen?
Mystics are never interested in Science because thats the realm confined to this plane of reality. The universal laws applicable here/governing this plane – Gravity, physical mass, Time constraints , potential-kinetic energy, momentum, and the most important of all –Action-Reaction are all left behind here. Why they need to spend time on these. They are least interested in winning any Nobel prize.

Tuscan wrote-
This is counter to the teachings as they are presented in the RS literature and by the former masters themselves.
Personally, I don’t care but if I were a devotee this would be a matter of some concern. Which is correct, the new master’s teaching or the old?Who, then, is the current master Gurinder Singh? Or, who was Charan Singh.
The ultimate truth has always been the same. It’s the Shabad (word) that is ultimate master of all. Who ever merged in that shabd has become shabd itself. Like drop of water loses its identity when it merges with ocean.
Gurinder Singh / Charan Singh are the masters who have merged themselves with Shabad.
They deserve our respect because they do the best charity any soul can do in this world. They give/remind us the way to merge back into that shabd. They show us the way hence we ourselves become masters in our own sphere. Not kind of declared master responsible for group of souls but of our own life.
With respect to variance in the theory b/w the two?
Theory given depends on the target audience intended. If these things were to be taught to simple Indian villager, he would given the story in very simple manner. Things would be personified for him – like kaal made the villain.
If the theory was to be meant for intellutual , questioning urban scientist the terms used would be more scientific. But still the full justice to subject would not be done because the terms dont exist by even human scientist standard. better is to experience than going into theories!
still not convinced. Try your luck with a possible theory ahead.
————————————
George asked: “Is the 7-planed RS cosmology a metaphor which perhaps rather than describing spiritual planes is describing different psychological regions of the mind as it perhaps progresses deeper into itself?”
Let me kind of try to build picture for your visualization of things as they are.
If you have studied science it has concluded that the atoms are nothing but have electrons vibrating in their spheres. Now try to visualize what kind of mass they would be having!
Any element is in turn made up of atoms vibrating. The whole thing is held together by a attractive force which is stronger than repulsive force. They are kind of held together by unknown force. Further they combine to give compounds, alloys, mixtures. This whole physical world we see is the mixture(nothing is pure in it). The whole thing in turn is vibrating at different frequencies.
Lets go further, when a light or sound is produced?
Its when the atoms/electrons vibrate at particular frequency.
Eg. Heat a piece of Iron, the heating increases the energy in the electrons. They vibrate at higher frequency. They Iron in turn becomes hot. If we continuing heating it further the electrons become more and more agitated until it becomes red hot and starts emitting its own light.agitate to infinite level,it may ultimately be only light.
But in this physical world what is the natural tendency of Iron? Leave it the forces applicable here within will bring it together & solidify it again.
That formless God has been described as a the ultimate source of light and sound(universal vibration) ‘shabd’.
Our souls are also lights (vibration) which has to merge back. Our body is only elements and once soul leaves body the elements disintegrate and merge back into earth. What kept the body together. It was soul (part of that Shabd).
Similarly what keeps planets rotating around sun and not colliding into it. What keeps electrons vibrating around nucleus in atom .
It’s the Universal shabd.
That’s why they say God is universal. It permeates everything.
when God (shabd) will pull out its force from this physical world, there will be Universal catastrophe. (Judgement day – Bible, ‘Parlay’ – Vedas).
The elements long held back by forces would collide and everything would go ‘poof’. The whole physical world would merge back into that universal Vibration(shabd).
The elements in the Iron piece above would not anymore have that force to keep it together. The most basic constituents of it (that science has been able to measure) will go their way and merge back into shabad.
The world was made out of it, the world will merge back into it.
Therefore that shabd is our natural home. We don’t have to wait till that universal catastrophe to happen to go back there. We can go back today and thus save ourselves anymore sufferings.

gaurav,
Nice collection of statements,
“That formless God has been described as a the ultimate source of light and sound(universal vibration) ‘shabd’.”
—Described through meditation? Does one need to evolve through astral planes to find this description? Is the Sach Kan(sp?) the final astral plane where the descriptions become clear and complete?
“Our souls are also lights (vibration) which has to merge back.”
–At what point does one know that the Soul needs to merge back? Could one know through meditation the reason for merging back?
“Therefore that shabd is our natural home. We don’t have to wait till that universal catastrophe to happen to go back there. We can go back today and thus save ourselves anymore sufferings.”
–How could one go back today? Could this be done without the Initiation process? If I eat a steak(medium rare) this morning, is there time to go back today? Seems like I may need a week or two.
I’m not finding fault, however, your statements seem like they have been taught to you. Nothing wrong with classroom training. You seem to be well trained.

If you have studied science, you will be aware of the standard particle model – which describes all known elementary particles and forces at the subatomic level. This model has been updated even smaller particles are discovered. The electron and its mass has been known for just over a century (Thomson). Electrons are held in orbit by a known force called the electromagnetic force, which also binds atoms to form molecules – Physics 101 – all known.
String theory is relatively unknown, it is not wholly accepted science since for one thing it cannot reconcile general relativity with the quantum.
Light is wholly different from sound since it exhibit simultaneous wave-particle properties resulting in one of science’s greatest puzzles.
Anyway, your metaphorical explanation is probably fine for an RS layman, but it is no way scientific. To be scientific, someone would need to have identified the soul, i.e. have proof for its existence like Thomson had for the electron.

I said to you Gurav:
“At least you admit it is faith. If you are comfortable with that faith who should argue with you, except those who you hope to convince of the correctness of your faith?”
In your response you said:
“I acknowledge your efforts to take my statements one by one and offer your counterviews on same.Thank you,But am sorry that I can take them just at literature level and not beyond this forum.It is in my self-interest. Because I dont want to carry any baggage of emboldened ego(by winning debates/arguments) or bad after taste in mouth or mind. These are detrimental on my path of faith.”
Gaurav, after saying that you still continue to preach Sant Mat dogma on this blog as if it is fact. This is a blog, not a satsang, and people are going to be inclined to question your statements. That is the nature of a blog.
What you really want is for everyone to accept that dogma and not challenge your statements. This is a form of “emboldened ego” as you put it, because you continue to preach (insist upon or defend) your beliefs without supporting them with any evidence. All you are doing is presenting more dogma. Please understand the word “dogma”. Look it up.
What has happened is that some of our questions and comments have challenged your faith and you have taken a defensive position by saying you don’t want to argue when, in fact, that is exactly what you are doing.
However, you are selective in the comments you address, taking only the ones you think you have answers to and ignoring the tough ones.
You hide behind the guise of your statement above saying your only purpose here is:
“Because I wish to express my solidarity with my fellow seekers who are in the waters of mysticism but suffer pangs of wavering faith just like me.”
Gaurav, there are not many of your fellow seekers in the Sant Mat faith on this blog because their statements of blind faith and religious/cult dogma are continually challenged here. Remember, this is the “Church of the Churchless” blog. This is not a comfortable place for those who preach faith.
I suggest that you take your master’s advice and attend to your simran and bhajan where he says all your doubts will be resolved. Preaching here will only get responses that challenge your faith and weaken your resolve to do the work you have been enjoined to do…meditation.
Best Wishes

tucson,
Maybe if Gaurav were to write a comment, in his own words, regarding the RSSB meditation process, there could be some informative exchanges. Just simple conversation, nothing more.

Roger and Tucson
Thank you.
Best Wishes.

I am sorry I meant George not roger by mistake on post earlier.
You see this was the hangover I was fearing about. Anyways. Thank you Guys.
George I am not classroom trained on the matter as you put it. RS does not produces any prechers for net. In fact sometime back they discouraged followers against creating forums on orkut, blogs etc.
I am relatively new seeker(initiated 22 dec 2009) on the path. I had my own struggle before I gave up alchol.nonveg to come on this path. The theory that I posted above was my own which I figured out to build my initial faith to see me through the initial most difficult phase to reach the eyecenter.
Anyways.
thank you. Best wishes.

Gaurav, you said,
Gurinder Singh / Charan Singh are the masters who have merged themselves with Shabad.
Few years ago in a Q&A session, a satsangi asked Don Gurinder Singh that why his father suffered so much at the time of death, though he had been meditating for years and was merged in the Shabad, the reply was.. how can you know that he was merged in the shabad…brother we don’t have the capacity to know whether one is merged in the shabad.
imo this reveals that even the master doesn’t have the capacity to know whether he or anybody else is merged in the shabad.
How could you know that these masters have merged in the shabad, is it because they have a big number of followers,they have the proper authorisation of the organization,their way of dresssing,their beard, their behaviour, or you have been inside and verified.

Guarav
Thank you for your views in any case. To me at least Sant Mat is new and i like to listen to the stuff even if its preachy, tho some others are perhaps sick of it.
However, correction is needed where science is misrepresented.
Why not just say why RS is a different method of insight into our reality then science? – but instead RS is often passed off as a science, when clearly it is not. It may provide far more important truths then science, but when claims are made without proof, ppl will question.

Gaurav,
I was initiated in 1970, but have not been involved with Sant Mat since about 17-18 years ago.
Since you are new to the path of Sant Mat it is my suggestion to you that you obey your master’s recommendation not to engage in debate or website discussions about the path. Maybe you have already decided to do this because your reply above was brief which I think was a wise decision.
These discussions will only serve to weaken your resolve at a time when it needs to be strong. Give the path your best effort and see what happens. Be honest with yourself.
Again,
Best Wishes

Masters GIHF/ Lack of GIHF (God in Human Form)
Very relevant aspect that puzzle all of us. I just share my perspective on these. Its not absolutely black& white or 0 and 1 like that. Maybe Like in subject of philosophy there are just shades of opinion not absolutely 1+1=2 as perhaps in science. ( as rightly pointed out by George & Roger)
So my statements are for your open scrutiny. Further I heed to Tucson advice that I should not expect my views to be accepted as the fact as such.
In terms of proofs I would be only able to highlight certain general observable points and some testimonials ( personal). However acceptance of these as such is open to individual discretion.
——————————
Let me use certain concepts as acronyms for sake of my writing. helping me in my articulation.
One relevant Universal law relevant to the topic is
1. Action/Reaction (A/R) cycle
Philosophy-
Just like Gravity, A/R is the other most binding law operating in this plane of existence. Science has been able to surpass Gravity accelerating at 9.84 m/sec sq (albeit with help of rocket).
But with relation to A/R – Science is no where near existence of this concept. They are at best only able to provide temporary relief/postponement of Results. Eg Medical science providing half baked so called cures to the innumerable types of diseases affecting mankind.
Mystics and masters follow these laws for even themselves while they exist on this plane of reality. Please read above the earlier post “What Mystics have done for Humanity”.
Observable points-
a. We see the consistency in the behavior and message of the Mystics through the ages. They have been behaving strangely. Although they claimed to be from God but they in general didn’t come on this plane to interfere in the natural laws here. In other words they are not found flying/teleporting themselves or performing any other miracles. Jesus did not save himself or his disciples from horrifying cruxification. At the same time they were not afraid to embrace death (by human standard) for sake of something (truth)not visible to us . Similarly the sikh Gurus.
b. While Initiation, the RS people specifically warn people not to practice meditations for acquiring any miracle powers. They say that we attain access to powers (supernatural by human standards) but we should never fall in the temptation of trying, using them or even discussing them. Swallow the things as mercy, more mercy would be bestowed.
Personal Testimonial –
One of my Uncle (very pious samartian) wished me good luck after my initiation. He gave me certain meditation tips. Then suddenly he turned somber. Very ruefully he warned me not to discuss even with spouse any of the experiences I achieve after hard work of meditation. He almost cried that he lost his hard work when he started arguing with people on basis of his experiences inside. Now he says he sits in meditation but he dose’nt have the same access. He burns in the fire of repentance and asks for forgiveness.
My Personal conclusion-
Why was his progress stopped just by his discussion of things outside? Because ‘shabd’ stopped his greed taking over him at the initial stage itself. Because tomorrow when he attains more powers he would be tempted to interfere with natural laws around him. Eg . forecasting for people, curing their disease. Its for his betterment only. Because his larger goal is something else not to perform any miracles here and gather any followers.
This is enough for me personally to build my faith and excite me to take my meditation in right earnest. Albeit I should rightfully earn everything and not expect miracles. I have to honour A/R cycle.I should not expect explaination for every trouble that affects in my life even after my initiation. Unless I find for myself the truths through meditation. And i should not misuse my acquired access. i should be secretive.its for disciples own good.
contd…..

Masters Lack of GIHF
Philosphy-
Everyone sees the master in the color of glasses he/she is wearing!
Why there is big variance in the perception people have about the same very Master?
There have been the worst of critics and still there are those who just don’t know anything else but him.
This is due to certain problems affecting us all but to varying degrees like-
1. Arrogant misplaced faith. (AMF)
2. Running like Rest. (RLR)
3. Not Doing Basics. (NDB)
Personal experience-
When I was being brought into this RS fold by my family, I was given a high, by the dose of preaching that we perhaps are the luckiest set of people in the whole cosmos who have come to know and following of the only supreme presence possible on this earth. How nothing can ever go wrong with us.
Yes, Preachers (my father/mom in my case) can go overboard for the sake of their faith.
With this high arrogant attitude I headed to Beas. On the way I looked with disdain at poor souls lined up before Gurudwaras, Temple , churches. I thought, poor fellows what they are going to get over there in structures. I at least have the presence of supreme lord. (such stupid arrogance of mine) (AMF)
At Beas in my misplaced over- excitement I tried to jump wall to run after Babajis car. Why? Because everyone else was doing same.(RLR)
And I thought that I can’t just afford to miss this opportunity to see that GOD and possibly touch him. But alas, I fell and hurt myself. After that I spent all the time in Beas limping. And limping I headed back home. My wounded ego and sullen face. If I was running for sake of the GIHF why the hell he allowed me to fall and have nasty bruise?
The stupidity/ ignominity of my AMF is laughable by some other peoples standards. But In general I observe that we all suffer from same. The very topic of this forum “Did I see God in first class’ belongs to same very category.
Other kinds of misplaced faith/expectation people have-
1. Where’s the halo behind the master (GIHF)?
2. Why the master sneezed now, why he caught flu if he is GIHF?
3. Why didn’t he save my child from drowning?
4. Why he forgot the name, things if he is GIHF and knows all?
I had many personal AMFs during my shaky period. Until I thought otherwise.
Observable point-
1. I carefully listened to discourses of Babaji. Did he ever promised me to fulfill any of my AMFs. On the contrary they repeatedly say don’t have wrong expectations of changing things/miracles.
Babaji himself never proclaimed himself to be any GIHF. He is consistently only trying to point at one thing – meditate for yourself, become the master yourself. He is not saying or doing anything to excite people or wow the crowd. Still people are flocking to him only to hear the same thing.
2. It’s the crowd ( RLR) which never tires of proclaiming him GIHF. It’s the collective AMF.
But theres another thing about this collective faith – there is tiny 1% minority which actually are able to see him in GIHF because they have advanced in their practice and can actually see him with different glasses. The rest majority 99% just do RLR. Just build the hype of GIHF with plain words but not doing actual basics. (NDB)
Personal Testimonial –
I am a new initiate and when I sit in meditation I feel the need for him.
When I try to cut my attention from infinite things in this world to absolute zero I need some support. I consciously try to hand over the reins of my brain to Soul away from Mind. But Mind troubles me a lot. Then I can actually feel the soul taking over the charge and making my mind busy in simran.
But Then I see nothing but darkness when I close my eyes. I need something to contemplate. Since am trying to contemplate about something I have not seen I need some representation. Its natural for me to contemplate on my masters face.
Like a camera which is short focused now,. If it has to see some landscape far it takes reference of some object belong in that landscape to adjust its lenses.
Similarly I need to adjust my contemplation /lense and bring Masters face(specifically his eyes) into my focus. Why only master, because of my initial faith (built on the basis of observations above) that he belongs to that landscape where I have to reach.
I cannot contemplate on image of Sylvester stellone (although I love him) because his contemplation only takes me to Hollywood.
But am such a rookie/raw in my practice that am not able to this simple thing-
“Busy off mind in simran and bring focus on Masters face to bring myself into state of absolute zero.” Because anything worth experiencing would happen only after that.
With consistent practice (only of 15 days as of now) the body below has started to become numb. The contemplated picture of master has started improving. It’s becoming more sharper. The sharper the image and focus is becoming sharper. Its cyclic- The stronger the faith becomes- Stronger is the practice- the Stronger becomes the desire to refresh my memory by having his physical darshan (not photo).
Am keenly looking forward to visit Beas on 14th Feb for public discourse. And for first time I know I’ll be observing him with a true seekers eye. Not with any of my AMFs. I know it’s the hard work and its only me who has to do hardwork for myself. I know he is the GIHF for me because his contemplation is helping me in my efforts.
Not doing Basics ( NDB) – The Collective failure/ Disillusionment of people
In my personal opinion majority (99%) sangat in Beas itself seem to suffer from this AMF/RLR/NDB.
Master himself said in one of the Sundays public satsang that not even 1% sangat present there truly follows the right approach and practices (meditation)on the path.
So kind of 99% people are carrying AMF without substance. (my personal humble guess about figures for sake of philosphy)
In fact I have seen some of the most arrogant souls in some locational RS preachers and the volunteers at dera. While there are humble 1% prople who humbly carry on their sewa.
Personal Testimonial-
My cousin narrated me experience of meeting a humble pious sewadar(volunteer) humbly doing his sewa. He came to know that gentleman is one of the super rich of his city. For two days he leaves the business with his employees and comes to dera doing duty at Gate – opening and closing gates for vehicals. At times when gates are closed and no vehical is supposed to come, he without any instructions picks up a mop and silently goes on to clean the toilets near the gate. All the while he is doing simran (repetation).
Personal Conclusion-
Now when any problem/crisis comes on these people there will be difference in how they react to situation. The first 99% would run away and pray Master to save their ass. No miracle happened, poof the most vocal former preachers would become the worst critic of him.
The 1% disciple who had been doing real sewa (meditation/ simran) all through their peaceful times would say Master give me strength to face the problem. Give me the courage so that I can firmly stand WITH YOU.
And they would have built the character in the times of peace which would see them through the crisis because they have done their hardwork. They have built the substance. They wont beg God or Master to intervene in their cases (A/R cycle) and set things right. They honorably brace themselves to be strong to face the action/Reactions. They rightfully earn their place besides the Master.
——————————————
Who have progressed on their spiritual path? The 1% because they have overcome their shortcomings of AMF+RLR+ NDB and they have come to know about overall scheme of things. They will calmly accept A/R cycle. They know things yet they keep silent. From our standard they would start behaving strangely!

Separating the 1%-ers from the 99%-ers sounds rather silly. What is the percentage(of the 100%) that are the Gift of Gabbers, Dog and Pony Show specialists, and Carneval Barkers? I’m not an initiate of the RSSB, however the 1% and 99% really should be merged together into the 100%-ers. Just keep it 100% and believe what you desire.

Dear Gaurav,
Every argument has an counter argument. It is the dual nature of this world. Nothing is absolute.
” Gur ko manas jante te Nar Kahia Andh
Dukhi Rahain Sansar Main Aage Jam Ka
Fand”.
Are you in confusion somewhere of your path. Be stead fast and hold on to it.
This blog is very good particularly the Blogger Brian’s efforts.
with love,

Rakesh
Every argument has an counter argument. It is the dual nature of this world. Nothing is absolute.
—————————————
Yes Rakesh I agree with your statement above duality is the only absolute thing existing on this plane.
Yes this blog is truly very nice effort indeed.I have been reading through many of the topics here. This particular topic “Did I see God in first class” for some reason compelled to share my prespective.
My objective is not to argue here. I have tried to modify my language accordingly as per feedback.
No I dont think I am in any kind of confusion about the path.
Thanks for your concern mate.

Gaurav, you seems like a genuine and intelligent person who is looking for meaning beyond this life. All these cult organisations are only looking for genuine people like you and do everything to make it more appealing to you. I am nobody to advise you but be careful while treading on any such path. Make sure to keep your mental balance. This repetition of simran while doing other chores of life can make you insane and if you don’t get any results (so called darshan) in meditation, you will slowly start getting various anxiety disorders. These meditation theories are just mind plays and are trick to attract genuine people in cults.
you will be going in circles very soon: “Master, why cant i meditate? …do your simran..Master, why i cant i sit for 15 minutes…do your simran…master, why i am so anxious and cant enjoy anything in life…surrender and do your simran….and slowly an another cultic initiate is created who shuns his intellect and surrenders completely to the cult and most of the time become like the 99% you just described’

gaurav, I like your rather analytical attitude toward Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas guru devotion, including these insights:
“1. Arrogant misplaced faith. (AMF)
2. Running like Rest. (RLR)
3. Not Doing Basics. (NDB)”
I wonder, though, if your belief that 1% of initiates know through direct experience that Gurinder Singh is God in Human Form (GIHF) isn’t also an example of AMF.
How do you know this? Not just the 1% figure, but that anyone at all knows the guru is GIHF? Isn’t this as much a matter of blind faith as is the conviction of so many Christians that Jesus walks with them, talks with them, and is their savior?
Would you also say that 1% of Buddhists are enlightened? That 1% of Taoists are one with the Tao? That 1% of Muslims are in touch with the true teachings of Allah? Given that all religions consider their faith to be genuine, as compared to other misguided dogmas, why is the supposed 1% realization of RSSB initiates more valid than the supposed 1% realization of devotees of other religions, spiritual paths, and mystical philosophies?
I understand that you enjoy the atmosphere surrounding the guru, and the good works that initiates do. Keep in mind, though, that lots of people perform “selfless service.” Many are agnostics or atheists, while others are doing charitable acts in the name of countless different faiths and religions.
Morality is different from truth. Feeling good is different from knowing reality.

Roger Brian wrote:
I wonder, though, if your belief that 1% of initiates know through direct experience that Gurinder Singh is God in Human Form (GIHF) isn’t also an example of AMF.
How do you know this? Not just the 1% figure, but that anyone at all knows the guru is GIHF? Isn’t this as much a matter of blind faith as is the conviction of so many Christians that Jesus walks with them, talks with them, and is their savior?

——————————–
Yes Brian, I admit the above thing is nothing but my belief. This could very well prove to be the biggest AMF blunder on my part about my life. Its only me who would be responsible for same.
But I have reasons to believe otherwise.
Some indicators as such.
Don’t we Human anyways have to carry on their lives as such on the basis of some beliefs(decisions).On this plane of duality, the risk of AMF rests with every action. how? as follows-
In nature we observe that living things below the Humans:
(Insects, birds, animals ) seem to be following a very programmed life.
Plants – Miserable. They only know photosynthesis.
Insects- alas they atleast move around. But put a cockroach in observation chamber only thing it’s doing is going round in circles moving its antenna.
Cold blooded creatures /In vertebrates – they are absolutely cold to any form of perceptible intelligence. Try making friends with snake. Feed it milk from one hand. The next moment it comes to bite you on your other hand. Poor creatures cant figure out things. Try making friendship with Fishes , sharks. feed it now the next it comes to feed on you.
Warm Blooded creatures/Mammals – These chaps are atleast warm to some sort of contact. Dog has made reputation of being the best friend of man. Lions, Tigers are also sort of domesticated by the ring master. dolphin ( the mammal) behaves differently from shark. It responds with some form of intelligence to Human contacts.
But in general all these creatures above seem to follow only the predestined instincts feeded in them since their birth. Does the God exist for them? Is their monotonous kind of life they live is the way want God wants them to Live?
From our Humans view may be yes (If I believein God) or may be no (I don’t believe in Gods existence, &anyways nature is different form GOD)
But from non-human creature perspective they all seem to be very consistent in their behavior. There are some unexplained instincts, compass for them to exist their truths of life.
———————–
But alas there seems to be no absolute instincts for us to follow?
Why we are not able to find/follow the predestined instincts if we also belong to the same very nature.
Why the duality comes when the behavior /thinking of Humans comes into picture?
there exists duality in our perception of things which makes us think and behave differently. Make us confused. Why we have to always decide for ourselves to exist?
I see it like this that We are cursed in a way by having duality in our perception.
All through the day we live life on the basis of beliefs.
Iam hungry. What should I eat?
Iam sleepy. where should I sleep? how much should I sleep?
Iam taking up this career because I believe I will succed here.
Iam marrying her/him because I believe our marriage will last.
Iam searching for answer here because I believe I will find the answer.
I am searching for truth because I believe I will find it.
So decisions / beliefs are very much intrinsic parts of our miserable/confused existence.Its seems to be the only starting point for every aspect. We arrived there or not is something that only comes after efforts following belief.
Is it that, our behavior and actions over the ages /generations has further and further brought us away from that natural instinct order.
That order, truth still exists but our intellect/consciousness/perception has come so far away from it that we are not able to see truth.
I think the best alternative / proof to form the basis of my decision (belief) should be to trace back.
——————————–
But there are advices from contemporary set of people who conveniently want to save themselves hard work of finding back ( my belief).
Either, They look for natural order in the manmade things (science, born out of duality thinking)
or best of all be agnostic (no beliefs, so no trouble of finding answers).
I ignore these….
But Let ,me use the very intellect which has brought me further and further away from Truth.
Use the Maps to find trail back. Maps In our case- the various religious books, the most ancient Vedas,bible,Koran,the writings of mysics. Ignore the differences the mis-interpretations that have creeped into descriptions over the ages by the different generations. In any case old maps are supposed to get torn, disfigured ,discolored over the long times.
What I figured out was:
Its my personal belief (decision) today that
I found RS philosophy ,message, practice,intention most consistent with ancient maps. It would be arrogance on my part to proclaim that it’s the only true map. But yes I am on one among best path. I would need hell lot of patience, persistence and faith to travel the longggg journey back. Best thing here is that there are signposts, milestones (the levels in meditation) on the path to encourage me and the promise of a guide (Master) to accompany me from the station.
Now which is that station (the first encouragement) – Its the eye center.
Tommorow let me suppose that Guide didn’t turn up at the station, he tricked me. (Master is not true).This risk is there but still I think its worth reaching the station.
Why its worth spending efforts reaching the station?
Which part of Human body has found all the answers (Gravity, Relativity) found till now by the greatest Human scientists?
It’s the head. And pay attention to this fact that it was possible because they concentrated with their hand on the forehead. What does this indicate that all the answers lie here at the human forehead, specifically at the eye center(station) . It certainly still contains many more unexplored treasures!
Now to find answers to things which we can witness or understand with our present senses like- why the apple falls on the ground?
We use references of things in this plane of truth. We contemplate on things of this world to find answers related to them. And Humans have just used 5-10% of mind to find answers to these.
Now what if take this concentration/contemplation to a higher level. I.e. we shut out our senses, we dull our external thoughts to the point that everything becomes still in our mind absolutely. (possible in meditation)
We are bound to discover/ understand something that is hidden from us till now!
This is moment when our that consciousness (dead till now) awakens. and then it has infinite things to explore / find.
Theoretically I would like to summarise as follows:
Bring the mind scattered ∞ in this world to
absolute 0
then I have ∞ things to explore at other end.

Hi All – two responses:
Brian – Yes, that is probably my favourite verse from Kabir! I forget the original exact hindi, but I do *believe* that the part where he says ‘no radiant form…..no name’ literally were the words naam (or shabd) and the words used in RS for radiant form!
I think that’s pretty, hmmm, eye-opening? It’s certainely no surprise that no RS group I’m aware of, across the entire spectrum east to west, has ever printed that verse, even though it is UNDISPUTEDLY written by Kabir……whereas the Anurag Sagar is held in high esteen by all of them, even though he almost certainely didn’t author it – it was even a ‘instructional’ text in the early RS days for future gurus (Jaimal & Sawan).
Personally, I feel a great, huge part of RS theology was simply a conceptual repitition of what they learnt in that book (ie, no through ‘divine revelation’)
PS – My sincerest condolences regarding your sister, which I only read about today.
Dear Gaurav – I really enjoyed your double-post above.
Regardless of the ‘truth’ or not, relative or not, of what you’re suggesting, I certainely appreciated your sentiment.
And anyway, who knows of such a strange beast as ‘truth’ anyway, ey? 🙂 More chance of locating the abominabal snowman I think!
For some reason, I found it very warm-hearted. Would you mind if I post it to another forum, without your name, but just refering back to this site? Please advise if you would NOT like me to, as I will delete it immediately if you don’t? I’ll take the assumption it’s okay in the meantime, as I cannot see anything you’d want to keep hiddin in there!
PS – I also deeply feel for your turning your life around from whatever ‘negative’ things you were engaged with previously – whatever people may say to you here (or there), if you find something in this existence which gives you some sembelance of peace, contentment etc – I say stick with it – some mercies in life are very rare, and blessed are those who can even grab a moment of it……
….however, please forgive me if I overstep my boundaries – I would suggest trying to communicate your enthusiasm or beliefs to others may not be such a good idea from several perspectives – not least from your own, within a ‘spiritual seeker’ paradigm. The now notorious Gurinder Singh injuction against discussing RS on the internet may be slightly more beneficial/insightful than the naysayers would have it….
…..when you plant a very delicate flower’s seed, you have to very, very careful not to stress it during it’s infancy, otherwise it grows into a weak and ugly looking thing. You place a boundary around it so no harmful things can stunt it’s growth. You don’t pass the seedling around to all & sundry to look and gawp and touch and……damage it.
But each to their own!
Cheers and peace…

Gaurav,
I am in agreement (for whatever that’s worth) with Manjitd’s comment above from top to bottom. Good comment and advice. In light of his last few paragraphs I would like to repeat my comment to you earlier in this thread:
Gaurav,
I was initiated in 1970 but have not been strictly involved with Sant Mat for almost 20 years now. However, for about 20 years prior to that I was a practicing satsangi, doing the four vows, satsangs, etc. So this suggestion comes from experience…
Especially since you are new to the path of Sant Mat it is my suggestion to you that you obey your master’s recommendation not to engage in debate or website discussions about the path.
These discussions will only serve to weaken your resolve at a time when it needs to be strong. Give the path your best effort and see what happens.
Suggestion: Keep a copy of Sapient’s comment above in this thread in a drawer. Look at it from time to time, year to year. Maybe it will apply, maybe not, but be honest with yourself.
Again,
Best Wishes

For convenience, Gaurav, here is the link to Sapient’s comment I was talking about:
https://churchofthechurchless.com/2005/06/did_i_see_god_i?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2012876b957a7970c#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2012876b957a7970c
Maybe give it a little thought. If it doesn’t ring true, embark upon the RS path with vigor, but keep it in the drawer as I suggested…or not.

Dear Gaurav,
I will be the last man to narrate any incidence related to spirituality/ meditation from my own lifetime. For the reasons, I need not explain.
Yet, I always say when my father expired, he simply laid down on the ground on a bed sheet and left the world by saying radhasoami. Subsequently, when i his countenance he was smiling and i saw him most happy person on the earth as if he had received something beyond his expectations. I never needed any proof beyond it to pursue my Master teachings.
I do not know how this incidence can help you build your way.
People here if prefer to share their negative or positive experiences. It can help others to pursue their way which ever direction would it be.
In order to encourage our self we encourage others- in every walk of life (imo).
with love,

The guest house gardener died when I was at the dera. I was there when they found him slumped dead in his room. It appeared he had died suddenly while sitting or meditating.
He had a peaceful half-smile expression on his face. I was impressed by the sparseness of his room and how few possesions he had. I have seen backpackers hiking with twice as much stuff.
At the time this was of great significance to me that he apparently died so peacefully and simply, possibly while soaring in some inner spiritual region, I thought. He was cremated on the dera property shortly after they found him with customary respect but little fanfare.
It was all over so simply. He was a very pleasant, simple fellow always greeting everyone with folded hands and “Radha Soami” while going about his gardening duties. Surely this was a sign of master’s grace for a deserving soul.
The master was asked at the evening meeting if the gardener was now in Sach Khand. The master only said, “He was a very nice soul.”
Many took that answer to mean a ‘yes’, but did it mean ‘yes’?
However, I also know of satsangis that died prolonged, miserable deaths and of three who were killed in car accidents, one of whom sadly died in great pain asking for his mother. The satsangi driver of the car ended up marrying his wife and later they divorced. Another older satsangi I knew died sitting on the toilet.
I have also seen a few non-satsangis and non-believers in anything die peaceful deaths. It is heartening to know that death, regardless of faith, can be a peaceful experience. We can only hope to be so lucky.

Action-Reaction (A/R) Cycle Follows FIFO (First in- First Out)
FIFO is a computer jargon. It implies that things would be processed only in the order of their input irrespective of rate of new inputs. Kindly lookup relevant places for the concept.
Philosophy
Every soul has its batches of inputs to be processed in FIFO order. It doesn’t gets its reward (for meditation) before its time has come.
The parable below is part of this philosphy. Kindly read in spiritualism prespective.
———————————————
Parable-
There was a renowned mystic to whom people flocked from far places. One day a poor peasant came to the mystic, and pleaded him to make him rich.
The mystic asked, “do you have faith in me?”
peasant replied – “yes master, I have heard a lot about you. I have now the absolute faith on you”
Mystic – “Ok, but don’t expect for any miracles”. “Do you still want to follow me”
Peasant – Yes master. I am very sure to follow you. I am very sad from life. I am very desparate to become rich. I know only you can help me. I have heard and seen others benefit from you.
Mystic- Ok. Do as follows:
“Take this big bags having seeds. Take this pointed stick. Look at this vast valley landscape. Now everyday you will start puncturing the earth with stick and put the seed into hole and close it. Every day you will try to do maximum you can. But do the minimum of atleast 100.”
Peasant said ok and went away. he was very keen, desperate . In right earnest, enthusiastically he started in big way. The first day he sowed 1000. For first 6 months he carried on and tried to do maximum from his side. wow, he thought how much efforts am I putting in. But still am not anywhere near richness.
He goes back to the Mystic. With a streak of dejection in his voice he asked.
“Master I have been regularly doing ,as you had said. In fact I had been doing almost 10 times more than the minimum you had asked. But still am no where near richness”
Mystic said- “ Nice to see your efforts. Good for you. You have the faith? peasant- yes.
Ok then Now go back and keep doing same.
Peasant went back. More years passed. With passing time his resolve weakened. But he kept on doing the chore but only 100 (the bare minimum) everyday.
After years with his grey head he went back to the mystic very dejected. Meanwhile he had heard many other stories of people who had become rich following the mystics advice. This only seemed to compound his disappointment. While his land had remained barren all this time.
But the Mystic, very dispassionately returned him back again asking him to keep doing the same thing.
The peasant now very old and having frail body and even frailer, wavering faith kept on doing hoping against hope. But these were his fag end efforts – only 10 per day.
He came on his death bed.
Now the mystic came to him and said, ”your time has come”. Peasant with last left breaths, wept out loudly. What’s the use now? Am going to die.
Mystic said, never mind you won’t need this body anyways. Leave this old, peasant body and come with me. The seemingly poor soul followed the master. The master took the soul to the high Mountain over seeing the valley.
Mystic turned to the soul and said –
I had warned you about not expecting any miracle. You agreed to follow my advice. I am fairly happy with your efforts. Although towards end of your life you didn’t perspire as much I had asked for. But still you earned for yourself and added it only to your account.
Then Pointing towards the lush green valley below the master said-
“Look what you have earned for yourself.”
The saplings have come out now.
The seeds I gave you were of expensive Sandalwood. It’s all yours now. You are super rich now.
Now you would go into new healthy body of rich man to enjoy these. You wont be called peasant anymore. That role has been left behind.
The souls was overjoyed. It asked back to master. why I had to spend my full life of despicable existence despite my sincerest belief in you. While there were others before me who became super rich within their lifetimes or some in 5 years or the very few other in just 5 minutes.
Master replied- “Those all souls have their individual truths, stories.’
I ‘ll disclose your truth now.
Then pointing towards a old dilapidated mansion in the opposite valley, he said,
Dear soul, you have forgotten but in your role before the peasant’s you were the rich landlord. You inherited everything because of your truth in previous role before that.
But, while you were landlord, You didn’t earn anything. You only splurged on the inherited wealth. You in fact went to nadir point in your behavior and actions. You kept bonded laborers on the farm without wages. You tortured them .
You were disillusioned that no one would ever be able to take you to task for your actions. Until Your death came and your role ended.
In this peasants role You had do the back- breaking toil in hard sun without any wages.
This was your payback time!
Now promise me you will take care of your wealth now.
—————————————
If we substitute the wealth in the story above with the spiritual wealth, then we can get view of things as they are.
But this is just a parable. Its no proof.
But we can observe certain points:
Observable points:
1. There’s big variance in the experiences of seekers after initiation. In my personal experience I have seen both – the most content happy people and also the former advocates turned worst critics.
Personal Conclusion –
How much time I need to keep sowing before I expect results? I don’t know. I don’t have access to that mountain top (Third eye).But considering the ages since my soul was away from truth maybe even my one whole life time would be not enough for me.
First 20 years I may have spent the time with sincerest efforts. But nothing happened. I am going in circles!
I get disillusioned and become the worst critic. I cry foul for my last remaining 20 years.
Then my role changes( birth) . By FIFO batch processing, now its my pay back time. My soul again gets attracted and appears before Master( ‘Shabd’, maybe not the same physical master) again for initiation. The Master (shabd) looks only at my 20 years of earnings and ignores the 20 years of criticizing. He smiles at me and again embraces me. He is merciful. He will never turn back from his duty of paying back.
But Why does ’nt the master tell me the fact (no results in present life birth), when I was bitterly complaining him about no results. Why every time he dispassionately sent me away to do my chore. Although he did gave me some words of encouragement.
If he had disclosed that nothing is coming in my lifetime, I’ll then and there would stop my sowing. I would stop the input into FIFO batch the seeds of meditation. He tries to maximize the seeds in my account for my own good without bothering of my threat to turn rebel for rest of my life.
———————————-
A father takes child to hospital for cure. Seeing the injection, the child cries aloud, pleads to father to take him away. But father catches hold of child’s arm to get him his shot. He knows its for his betterment.

Hi everyone.
well i guess i will weigh-in on this recent (and to me rather ridiculous) flurry of sant mat dogma posted by gaurav.
and btw, no offence but i am surprised that others haven’t seen all this for what it really is. never-the-less, here goes my remarks:
My comments and remarks following are intended mainly for Gaurav:
The following quoted statements were Posted by: gaurav | January 08, 2010 at 02:59 AM:
“Masters GIHF/ Lack of GIHF (God in Human Form)
Very relevant aspect that puzzle all of us.”
— well you’re wrong gaurav. this does not puzzle “all” of us. it does no puzzle me. this gihf thing is nothing but a contrived (manufactured) concept. there is no suuch thing as a gihf. there are humans, that we know. and there may be god, but that we do not know. however, trying to combine human with god is utter nonsense. it may fool some like yourself, but it does not fool me. it is just a ploy used by the sant mat cult to set the so-called master (the guru) apart from the disciples, and to make the master special and holy and divine. its BS. all humans are ordinary and mortal humans. there are no “god” humans. so my point is: that it is utterly ridiculous to waste time debating the matter.
“Mystics and masters follow these laws for even themselves while they exist on this plane of reality. Please read above the earlier post ‘What Mystics have done for Humanity’.”
— that implication is misleading. everything and everyone does and must act within and according to the laws of physics. there is no other possibility. so don’t imply that “mystics and masters” are different or have options. and what do you mean by “this plane of reality”?? there are so many different possibilities. you seem to assume that everyone thinks and perceives the same as you do. that is a mistake.
“We see the consistency in the behavior and message of the Mystics through the ages.”
— what “consistency”?? and “Mystics”? how do you know who is a mystic??
“Although they claimed to be from God but they in general didn’t come on this plane to interfere in the natural laws here.”
— how do you know that?? because thats what someone says?? come on. this is just standard old RS dogma. nothing new here.
“At the same time they were not afraid to embrace death (by human standard) for sake of something (truth) not visible to us.”
— thats a load of hype and bollocks. those guys were just as mortal and as human as anybody. don’t kid yourself. this is lame propaganda. and as for “not visble”, whell how convienent.
“Similarly the sikh Gurus.”
— same goes for them too. you think they are somehow special or something?? wake-up.
“the RS people specifically warn people not to practice meditations for acquiring any miracle powers. […] but we should never fall in the temptation of […] even discussing them.”
— oh, of course… don’t discuss anything important. oh no. keep it all real secretive. suppress any individual thinking. you know, this is the worst kind of cult mind control crap there is. you are obviously so young and immature and guru-cult brainwashed. you are just parroting typical RS dogma.
“Swallow the things as mercy, more mercy would be bestowed.”
— yeah right… just “swallow” the kool-aid. just do what you are told, don’t think for yourself. nad over your soul to the guru. this is shit thinking. this is cult brainwashing revealed in all its ugly scheming.
“my Uncle (very pious samartian) wished me good luck after my initiation. […] he warned me not to discuss even with spouse any of the experiences I achieve after hard work of meditation.”
— nothing personal, but your uncle was a brainwashed guru-cult goon too. and thats the way you are headed as well. but you won’t listen, because you think yuu know better, and you think that the master is gihf. but you are so terribly mistaken. i feeel sorry for people like you. you are stuck, hung up in the RS religion.
“He burns in the fire of repentance and asks for forgiveness.”
— he is a fool. he has nothing to repent. he could be a free man, but he has chained himself to dogma and myth. how sad.
“Why was his progress stopped just by his discussion of things outside” Because ‘shabd’ stopped his greed”
— nonsense. that is utter bullshit. shabd did not stop anything. his mind has been captured and imprisoned by a quasi-religious guru-cult and its dogma.
“I should rightfully earn everything and not expect miracles. I should not expect explaination for every trouble that affects in my life even after my initiation.”
— why would you anyway?? are you such a chiold that you need someone to be your parent and savior?? grow-up and beome a man. you are a sovereign individual in your own right. you need no masters.
“i should be secretive. its for disciples own good.”
— that is absolute garbage. you are in darkness. the light is open, not secretive. and no one else decides what is good for you… only you decide that. this is a sick mentality you have been made to accept. do not go this way. be honest and open and truthful. the truth is liberating, not hiding and supressive. do not be secretivbe, no matter what anyone tells you.
============================================
The following quoted statements were Posted by: gaurav | January 08, 2010 at 03:08 AM:
“Everyone sees the master in the color of glasses he/she is wearing!”
— there is no “master”. this is a myth. it is an idea used to manipulate ignorant or naive people like yourself. you have been folled, and now you are fooling yourself.
“This is due to certain problems affecting us all but to varying degrees like- 1. Arrogant misplaced faith. (AMF) 2. Running like Rest. (RLR) 3. Not Doing Basics. (NDB)”
— well i’d have to say that you are arrogant because of your immaturity. but this does not affect “us all”. and if you were really not like the rest, then you would not stay in this guru-cult. you would go your own way. and thats what you should do as soon as you can muser up the courage to really seek the truth.
“When I was being brought into this RS fold by my family, I was given a high, by the dose of preaching that we perhaps are the luckiest set of people in the whole cosmos who have come to know and following of the only supreme presence possible on this earth.”
— yes, that was all preaching od RS dogma. you were brainwashed into the RS cult religion. but the good news is that you do not have to remain this way. you canm be free if you want to be. nothing is stopping you except yourself.
“I headed to Beas. On the way I looked with disdain at poor souls lined up before Gurudwaras, Temple , churches. I thought, poor fellows […] I at least have the presence of supreme lord.”
— you were (and still are) arrogant and elitist. but you are really no better than anyone. in facty, quite possibly worse.
“I thought that I can’t just afford to miss this opportunity to see that GOD and possibly touch him.”
— what a gullible fool you were.
“The stupidity/ ignominity of my AMF [Arrogant misplaced faith] But In general I observe that we all suffer from same.”
— no, we do not “all”. everyone is not the same as you. so get over it. wake-up and face the real world.
“Babaji himself never proclaimed himself to be any GIHF.”
— perhaps not, but he continues to allow many many others to proclaim that… so that makes him responsible and complicit.
“He is not saying or doing anything to excite people or wow the crowd.”
— that is abslote utter nonsense. he plays and manipulatres the crowd far more than any of his predecessors.
“there is tiny 1% minority which actually are able to see him in GIHF because they have advanced in their practice and can actually see him with different glasses.”
— there is no such 1%. advanced, my ass. that is pure bullshit dogma.
“I am a new initiate and when I sit in meditation I feel the need for him. […] I need some support.”
— that is what you have been made to think and feel. but its not true.
“I consciously try to hand over the reins of my brain to Soul away from Mind.”
— you mean you want to give up your ability to think for yourself. more nonsense RS dogma.
“But Mind troubles me a lot.”
— this is nonsense. mind does no such thing. who is this “me” that is troubled??
“Then I can actually feel the soul taking over the charge and making my mind busy in simran.”
— what soul? what mind? you have been brainwashed into thinking that repetition of a mantra is needed for control.
“I need something to contemplate. Since am trying to contemplate about something I have not seen I need some representation. Its natural for me to contemplate on my masters face.”
— more evidence that you are brainwashed and programmed with RS dogma.
“I need to adjust my contemplation and bring Masters face (specifically his eyes) into my focus.”
— who says??
“only master, because of my initial faith that he belongs to that landscape where I have to reach.”
— more standard RS dogma.
“Busy off mind in simran and bring focus on Masters face […] anything worth experiencing would happen only after that.”
— this is proof that you have been totally brainwashed into thinking RS dogma.
“With consistent practice (only of 15 days as of now) the body below has started to become numb.”
— this indicates that you were initiated only a mere 15 days prior to the date of your comment (January 08, 2010). so you really have no experience whatsoever. on the other hand, myself and a few others here each have vastly more exerience – over 30 years of experience – since initiation. therefore, why do you assume that you are in any way qualified to be discussing and preaching about these things? and do you not know that your master himself has forbid all initiated RS satsangis from discussing sant mat & RS in any form on the internet? so by posting comments about your meditation, the RS teachings, etc, you are directly violating your own master’s orders and formal published instructions. that is not a very good way to start or proceed on the path.
“The stronger the faith becomes- Stronger is the practice- the Stronger becomes the desire to refresh my memory by having his physical darshan.”
— more typical effects of RS cult brainwashing.
“Not doing Basics ( NDB) – The Collective failure/ Disillusionment of people”
— you can only speak for yourself, not for others. you know nothing about the sadhana (spiritual practice) and doings of others.
“In my personal opinion majority (99%) sangat in Beas itself seem to suffer from this”
— and how could you possibly know that?? you don’t.
“Master himself said in one of the Sundays public satsang that not even 1% sangat present there truly follows the right approach and practices (meditation) on the path.”
— and how could he know that?? he doesn’t.
“Who have progressed on their spiritual path? The 1% because they have overcome their shortcomings […] and they have come to know about overall scheme of things. […] They know things yet they keep silent.”
— you simply do not know anything about the degree of progress of other people. moreover, who are you to judge anyone?? you have only been intiated a mere few weeks time?
============================================
The following quoted statements were Posted by: gaurav | January 08, 2010 at 09:05 AM:
“Yes Rakesh […] duality is the only absolute thing existing on this plane.”
— that is nonsense. what is “this plane”?? and “duality” is merely a perception, not any such “absolute thing”. so your statement is meaningless. i think you don’t have any understanding of what you are talking about.
“My objective is not to argue here.”
— why?? there is no problem with arguement here. just as long as you have some facts or evidence to support your arguement. but most of what you have said here thus far is comprised of expressions of naive faith and blind belief in dogma and heresay.
“I dont think I am in any kind of confusion about the path.”
— i disagree. i think you have very little (if any) insight or experience on the path. i think you are confused because you do not see or know the difference between abstract concepts and mystical philosophy, and what is actually real.
============================================
The following quoted statements were Posted by: gaurav | January 08, 2010 at 01:26 PM:
“I admit the above thing is nothing but my belief. […] But I have reasons to believe otherwise.”
— and what “reasons” do you presume??
“Don’t we Human anyways have to carry on their lives as such on the basis of some beliefs (decisions).”
— no you are wrong, no such beliefs are needed to live and/or to function. each step follows naturally after the preceeding one.
“On this plane of duality” the risk of AMF rests with every action.”
— and what “plane of duality” is that?? this is yet another assumption (a belief). and you have (and also have acquired) many other unexamined beliefs as well.
“(Insects, birds, animals ) seem to be following a very programmed life.”
— how is that?? animal instincts are a facet of natural evolution and adaptation.
“Plants – Miserable. They only know photosynthesis.”
— and how is that “miserable”?? i think you don’t have any idea what you are speculating about. it is extremely doubtful that plants are “miserable”. you may be miserable, but plants are not.
“Insects- alas they atleast move around. But put a cockroach in observation chamber only thing it’s doing is going round in circles moving its antenna.”
— so what??
“Cold blooded creatures /In vertebrates – they are absolutely cold to any form of perceptible intelligence. Try making friends with snake. […] Poor creatures cant figure out things.”
— again, to put it bluntly, in this area, you are full of crap. reptiles are quite intelligent. i used to have snakes as pets when i was a child. they are more aware than you realize. and as far as i can see from your comments, you are bereft of any wisdom and are rather inexperienced and quite arrogant.
“Warm Blooded creatures/Mammals – These chaps are at least warm to some sort of contact. […] It responds with some form of intelligence to Human contacts. But in general all these creatures above seem to follow only the predestined instincts feeded in them since their birth.”
— so what?? that does not make a rather arrogant fool like you in any way superior to them. you are only showing just how dimwitted and out of touch with life you really are. you live too much in your head, and not your heart. and you talk way too much without any undersatanding. its sad.
“Does the God exist for them?”
— what “God”?? where is this “God”??
“Is their monotonous kind of life they live is the way want God wants them to Live?”
— their lives are not “montonous” at all… and if there is a god, then nature (and the way that animals live) is most certainly god’s “way”.
“anyways nature is different from GOD”
— no it is not. how could nature be “diffenent from God”?? man, you are hell of a lot dumber than i thought. but thankfully, not all people in India are as incredibly ignorant and out of touch with nature as you seem to be. you are a pprisoner of your head, and also a prisoner of cult brainwashing.
“Why we are not able to find/follow the predestined instincts if we also belong to the same very nature.”
— nonsense. all creatures, including humans, have instints.
“there exists duality in our perception of things which makes us think and behave differently. Make us confused.”
— it is YOU who is confused. you are only talking about yourself.
“Why we have to always decide for ourselves to exist?’
— huh?? that makes no sense. what are you trying to say?
“I see it like this that We are cursed in a way by having duality in our perception.”
— YOUR perception is duality. speak only for yourself, not for others. i don’t think or feel the same as you do. i don;lt have a problem with this “duality”. there is no “duality”. duality is just an idea. in reality there is only what exists in this ever-present instant: life and the cosmos.
“All through the day we live life on the basis of beliefs.”
— no, that is simply not true. it is YOU who “live life on the basis of beliefs”, not “we”.
“decisions / beliefs are very much intrinsic parts of our miserable/confused existence.”
— it is YOUR existence that is “miserable” and “confused”. i am not miserable or confused, and i doubt that others are either. i know Brian and tucson aren’t. you seem to think that everybody is like you, but they are not. that is a a very immature way of thinking.
“Is it that, our behavior and actions over the ages /generations has further and further brought us away from that natural instinct order.’
— it don;t necessarily agree with that. i don;t have the same negative view about humans that you do. and i think you have acquired some of this from sant mat and RS cult dogma. this negative outlook on life is very typical of RS satsangis.
“truth still exists but our intellect/consciousness/perception has come so far away from it that we are not able to see truth.”
— again, speak only for yourself. you have no business speaking for others. and what do you know of “truth”?? much less the fact that you have been on the spiritual path but a very very short time… in comparison to my own case of more than 40 years of experience and over-all spiritual sadhana (from 1966 to 2010). you really should learn to listen more and think long and carefully before you speak make assumptions and jump to conclusions without having real knowledge.
“the very intellect which has brought me further and further away from Truth.”
— well in your case, that seems to be true.
“Use the Maps to find trail back. Maps In our case- the various religious books, the most ancient Vedas,bible,Koran,the writings of mysics.”
— there is no truth to be found in those books, or in any books. what you seek, you are. no book (or map) is necessary or useful. this moment is it. it is nowhere else.
“What I figured out was: Its my personal belief (decision) today that I found RS philosophy ,message, practice,intention most consistent with ancient maps.”
— you have figuered out nothing. you are lost and confused. that which you seek is not aprt from you. it is not something that can or evr will be found in “RS philosophy,message, practice”. you must surrender all of that and embrace the unknown if you wish to begin to grow towards even the tiniest understanding.
“to proclaim that it’s the only true map. But yes I am on one among best path.”
— typical. to be quite honest gaurav, the fact is that you don’t have a clue yet. seriously. you got alot of surrendering to do. you gotta give up all this stuff in your head… and learn to live in your heart.
Conclusion: i could go on to the very end of all your faulty assumptions and statements, but i think i’ve said enough already. you are young and naive and terribly presumtious, and so you will likely not heed my words at this point. but maybe someday you will remember what i said. until then, like tucson and Brian said, try to be very honest with yourself. that, and science will take you way far in the right direction. give up all this other mass of cult beliefs and myths. just be honest and embrace the mystery, the unknown. don’t presume to figure anything out, or to believe that anyone else has either. give up this ‘masters and saints’ BS. there are no masters or saints. there are only men, and boys. so grow up and face reality, and learn to be a real man. good luck.

Posted by: Tucson |January 08, 2010 at 09:06 PM
Dear Tuscon,
I have read your comment. I saw my father before 1965 a drunkard and after initiation in late sixties, he was complete devotee. The sea change I observed in 31 years in mundane as well spiritual affairs. In India, my parents and we children lived in a joint family.
I saw him thoroughly and to become unaware of the world for hours together during meditation was his routine matter.
The day he left his body, he had made him preparations before hand. A list of items to be done was readily available by his bed side.
I do not deny your experiences with initiates or non-initiates. Well note.
with regards,

onward RS soldiers marching as to war….
the stench of deluded arrogance … what a strange biblical metaphor, its almost like that repetence burn in hellfire crap posted by another RS soldier above … like every other fundamentalist preacher on his soap box shouting predictions of doom and hellfire at ppl passing by.
arrogant? good god, just who is arrogant, claiming to know The Truth, to know Reality without a scap of proof, not a shred.

Goodness Tao, you really are an insufferable bore.
40 years of sadhana? Well, putting aside the veracity of that claim, so what?
There are RS initiates of 60 years, who still believe.
And I find infinitely more at peace with themselves than you *appear* to be.
Taling about cultic dogma and nonsense – so you believe in completely nonsensical conspiracy theories – so what?
Different strokes for different folks isn’t it?
I know which of these 2 personality ‘dysfunctions’ (RS ‘guru-cult goonyism’ or paranoid conspiracy theory obssessions) I would rather my mind stream contained….
…..without question…..
Just why are so angry? So demanding of respect, and repetitive about your superiority to the RS guru-cult-goons?
Have you ever provided any information that is positive and uplifting?
Or is merely spitting substanceless vitriol on those who’s experiences and understanding you really have no inkling of?
Yeah yeah, we get it – throw out the RS guru cult goons, and become a believer in a whole variety of, errrm, ‘uplifting’ (:-/) paranoid delusions!
Hurrah, we are at peace again!
:-/

Tao
Kindly forgive my language style that seem to suggest that I am talking on your/ other peoples behalf without your permission.
Kindly ignore this as poor articulation skills on my part.
But I did try to modify my language after the initial feedback from George/Roger/Tuscan.
You came late on the block.
I have posted my views as personal perspective. I intend to share it with people with whom the wavelength matches.Others can go through it with a pinch of salt or very well throw it into trash. It dosent affect anybody,anyways.
Thank you. Peace.

Reply to Multiple posts –
Manjit – Thank you for extending your warmth in your post earlier. Please dont bother to even ask for so called permission. You are Gentalman.
Tucson- Thanks again for wishes/ advice. I sensed very sincere elderly concern in your post. Yes I have noted the sapients experience.
Thank you sapient for your words of prise for me.As well the caution.
Rakesh wrote:
“I will be the last man to narrate any incidence related to spirituality/ meditation from my own lifetime. For the reasons, I need not explain”
—————
Same here mate. I also have my personal incidence in my blood relation.
Thanks mate.

I did just want to add, something I’ve meant to write for quite a while now – Tucson, I do find your posts extremely well thought out and insightful – almost always.
And, as I’ve read them, alwatys stated with a general pleasentness and ‘normalcy’ about them.
Cheers.

Thanks manjitd.
I have been trying to warn Gaurav about participating here. Now tAo has effectively torn his comments to shreds which is bound to happen anytime someone bases their entire comments on religious/cult dogma and blind faith as if it were indisputable fact.
I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I hate to disrupt the feeling of security people’s belief system gives them. Life can be tough and it is nice to have something that gives comfort and support on otherwise uncharted seas.
On the other hand, sometimes it is good to get a slap across the face as a wake-up call and face the truth.

well manjit,
i must say, i feel quite the same way about you… you really are “an insufferable bore”, not to mention incredibly narcissistic.
actually, if you want to get down and personal about it, to be quite honest i think you are one of the most disingenuous and pretentious and puffed-up people i have ever encountered on the net. and i know quite a few other folks who i know feel the same way about you.
i usually don’t bother wasting my time responding to your garbage. and in this case the fact of the matter is that my previous comments were all directed specifically to gaurav’s statements, and they had nothing to do with you or with your warped personal opinions.
you clearly butted in merely in order to make unfounded (not to mention unwelcome) personal antagonism and ridicule of me (which as you know is basically what trolls are up to) that does not pertain in the least to the point and import of my communications to gaurav.
you said: “40 years of sadhana?”
— yes, that is correct. i started out upon my over-all spiritual path in 1966. you have some problem with that fact? it is simply a fact of my life, and so it is not up for debate. and actually what business is it of yours anyway?
you also said: “Well, putting aside the veracity of that claim, so what?”
— you can doubt whatever you want, it doesn’t change a thing. and what does it matter to you anyway? my comment pertained to gaurav’s statements, and had nothing to do with you. your personal skepticism and attacks on me has absolutely nothing to do with my commucation to gaurav.
you said: “There are RS initiates of 60 years, who still believe.”
— as if that means something, or anything? so what? i don’t care. and btw, i did not say that i had been an initiate for 40 years. i simply said: “in comparison to my own case of more than 40 years of experience and over-all spiritual sadhana (from 1966 to 2010).”
you said: “And I find infinitely more at peace with themselves than you *appear* to be.”
— you actually don’t know anything about me… abouit my “peace” or otherwise. thats for sure. and so you are a fool to judge me or to speculate. in reality, you are merely trying to ridicule and demean me without any basis other than your bad attitude towards me.
you said: “Taling about cultic dogma and nonsense – so you believe in completely nonsensical conspiracy theories – so what?”
— i don’t know whatyou are talking about, and i don’t think you do either.
you said: “I know which of these 2 personality ‘dysfunctions’ (RS ‘guru-cult goonyism’ or paranoid conspiracy theory obssessions) I would rather my mind stream contained”
— i don’t entertain either one. and if you are going to make inferences or accusations, then you had better put up some facts and substantial evidence in support of those accusations.
you said; “Just why are so angry?’
— fyi, i am not angry at all. there was nothing in my comments to gaurav carried any kind of anger. but you are obviously still trying (in your usual style) to pass off some of your veiled personal antagonism and ridicule.
you also said: “demanding of respect, and repetitive about your superiority to the RS guru-cult-goons?”
— unlike yourself, i did not claim (or imply) any such “superiority” to anyone or to anything. my critique pertained to gaurav and his attempts to justify and defend standard RS dogma.
you said: “Have you ever provided any information that is positive and uplifting?”
— as a matter of fact, yes i have… quite a bit as it turns out. but it really might be more appropriete if you asked yourself that question. especially in this forum.
you said: “merely spitting substanceless vitriol on those who’s experiences and understanding you really have no inkling of?”
— how do you know what “inkling” i may have or don’t have?? you don’t. and the lack of substance (ie: zero) is most certainly on your side.
you said: “throw out the RS guru cult goons, and become a believer in a whole variety of, errrm, ‘uplifting’ paranoid delusions!”
— and just what exactly might those be?? i think its pretty clear that you are the one who is deluded.

gaurav,
you said: “Kindly forgive my language style that seem to suggest that I am talking on your/ other peoples behalf without your permission. Kindly ignore this as poor articulation skills on my part.”
— well alright, if you say so.
“But I did try to modify my language after the initial feedback […] You came late on the block.”
— no gaurav, you are mistaken. you are not familiar with me. i did not “came late” here. i have been reading all your posts and comments from the get-go. fyi, i have been here in this blog-forum for about five years.
you said: “I have posted my views as personal perspective. I intend to share it with people with whom the wavelength matches.”
— when you post comments and statements as you have here, in a public forum, it is avaailable for anyone to comment upon. its not just for “people with whom the wavelength matches”. i offered my responses and opinions regarding your statements. i don’t have to think like you to do that. and also i have a great deal of both knowledge and experience with sant mat and RS. so i am more qualified to comment upon it than someone else who is not an initiate.
“Others can go through it with a pinch of salt or very well throw it into trash.”
— that’s not the point for me. i simply offered you my own observations, criticisms, and some suggestions. you can take it or leave it.
you said: “It dosent affect anybody,anyways.”
— are you sure about that? it may, or it may not.
“Thank you. Peace.”
— same to you, however you have convienently eveaded or avoided responding to any of the points and issues regarding your statments that i raised. if you don’t care to be questioned or challenged, then its best not to make statements and take positions as you have done. this is not a formal RS satsang site. this is simpply Brian’s personal blog, which is more churchless in its orientation and theme.
like some others have told you, this forum may be risky and could adversely affect your developing devotion to RS. not to mention the fact that you master gurinder sigh has fobid satsangis from discussing san mat and Rs on the internet. but its still up to you whether or not you choose to abide by his prohibition. you should be aware of it though.
“Manjit – You are Gentalman.”
— now that’s a joke if there ever was one!!! ah, the folly of being naive and gullible.

Hi Gaurav – thank you, you are very kind 🙂
Dear Tucson – well, new initiates are of course free to do as they please! 🙂 However, there is ONE point you’ve made over the years I’ve never really understood:
” Now tAo has effectively torn his comments to shreds”
Huh? I’m not so sure saying ‘no it isn’t’, or responding to personal anecdotes about family with ‘your is a guru cult goon’, or by repeating meaningless stock cliche pseudo-non-dualist phrases – is tearing anything at all to threads? Honestly, do you really think so? I have to say, I personally think that may be more to do with a bias on the subject you may have? If a satsangi responded to posts like that – I personally have no doubt they would pretty shortly be moderated here. Personaly abuse, empty rhetoric, inability to ENGAGE with a person, prefering instead stock cliche phrases. Just 2 sides of the same coin, imo.
Personally, I think it badly weakens any criticisms of RS that are being made here, but I suppose we all have different perspectives! Just seems so badly immature, lacking in insight, or anything of any value – seems more like it reveals more about tao/1%/whatever-id than it will EVER do about RS? :-/
Dear Tao – he he 🙂 I sincerely believe, at least from where I’m sitting, that you do a good enough job ridiculing and demeaning yourself – you don’t need me to do it!
But, of course, we all see things differently. As, incongrously as it seems to me, Tucson actually thinks you are ‘ripping’ to shreads others arguments?
Funny old world!

Devil’s (or is that Sant’s? 🙂 Advocate:
Ripping the, errrm, ‘ripper’. (pour vous Tucson :oP)
Gaurav: “Masters GIHF/ Lack of GIHF (God in Human Form)
Very relevant aspect that puzzle all of us.”
Tao: — well you’re wrong gaurav. this does not puzzle “all” of us. it does no puzzle me. this gihf thing is nothing but a contrived (manufactured) concept. there is no suuch thing as a gihf. there are humans, that we know. and there may be god, but that we do not know. however, trying to combine human with god is utter nonsense. it may fool some like yourself, but it does not fool me. it is just a ploy used by the sant mat cult to set the so-called master (the guru) apart from the disciples, and to make the master special and holy and divine. its BS. all humans are ordinary and mortal humans. there are no “god” humans. so my point is: that it is utterly ridiculous to waste time debating the matter.
##Manjit: Actually Tao, if you read further, I believe Gaurav aniticpates & answers your response. I think what he was suggesting is precisely that the common concept of guru as a perfect man, is mistaken and ridiculous – and that those who believe he should never get ill, is infallible etc are mistaken. So who are you preaching to here?###
“the RS people specifically warn people not to practice meditations for acquiring any miracle powers. […] but we should never fall in the temptation of […] even discussing them.”
— oh, of course… don’t discuss anything important. oh no. keep it all real secretive. suppress any individual thinking. you know, this is the worst kind of cult mind control crap there is. you are obviously so young and immature and guru-cult brainwashed. you are just parroting typical RS dogma.
“Swallow the things as mercy, more mercy would be bestowed.”
— yeah right… just “swallow” the kool-aid. just do what you are told, don’t think for yourself. nad over your soul to the guru. this is shit thinking. this is cult brainwashing revealed in all its ugly scheming.
“my Uncle (very pious samartian) wished me good luck after my initiation. […] he warned me not to discuss even with spouse any of the experiences I achieve after hard work of meditation.”
— nothing personal, but your uncle was a brainwashed guru-cult goon too. and thats the way you are headed as well. but you won’t listen, because you think yuu know better, and you think that the master is gihf. but you are so terribly mistaken. i feeel sorry for people like you. you are stuck, hung up in the RS religion.
“He burns in the fire of repentance and asks for forgiveness.”
— he is a fool. he has nothing to repent. he could be a free man, but he has chained himself to dogma and myth. how sad.
“Why was his progress stopped just by his discussion of things outside” Because ‘shabd’ stopped his greed”
— nonsense. that is utter bullshit. shabd did not stop anything. his mind has been captured and imprisoned by a quasi-religious guru-cult and its dogma.
###well, Gaurav says we shouldn’t meditate to aquire miraculous abilities, we shouldn’t share our inner experiences, and that his uncle lost the ‘Shabd’ due to too much discussing it.
Tao responds with answers which demonstrate, clearly, his unfamilarity with Shabd & RS.
Whether we agree or believe in these things literally or not, one thing is certain – this IS how the dynamic of RS meditation works.
I myself know people who where having inner experiences, made a great deal of ‘progress’ (within the RS paradigm), but then became too open & started discussing it with friends & family – only to suddenly have all their inner experiences STOP. I know at LEAST 2 people this has happened to personally.
Whether or not the ultimate reality of this is what is told in RS theology, it IS undeniable that it is part of the subjective dynamic of the RS meditation phenomena.
Tao’s responses indicate a lack of personal understanding & awareness of the phenomena and dynamic of guru-bhakti, and meditative RS ‘withdrawal’, and listening to the ‘Shabd’. Anyone who knows about these, will find Tao’s comments beyond irrelevant, absurd, and patently ignorant of personal experience.
The blind man commenting on art.
Just to interject my personal opinion, based on, errm, ACTUAL meditation (not claims thereof), I don’t believe the guru stops (or even has the ability to stop) an initiates ‘inner progress’. What, imo, I believe happens is that a persons *attention* which was previously focussed solely on the ‘inner’ side (disregarding outer concerns), then gets over-excited and starts ‘losing’ their attention OUTSIDE again (talking about the experiences etc), making it difficult to withdraw again, all progress being lost. On TOP of that, imo, the conceptual guilt for breaking vows builds another mental barrier to withdrawal. I’ve seen it with my own eyes, it can get quite painful for the initiate in question, stuck in a double bind, and desperate to have the same experiences as previously….#####
“”Gaurav: Everyone sees the master in the color of glasses he/she is wearing!”
Tao — there is no “master”. this is a myth. it is an idea used to manipulate ignorant or naive people like yourself. you have been folled, and now you are fooling yourself.”
###Manjit: I think this is a very insightful comment from Gaurav – the guru-figure-symbol becomes like a mirror for the disciple (regardless of whether the ‘guru’ is a genuine good person, or a criminal fraud).
There is an incredibly powerful dynamic that can & does occur between the disciple, and the guru SYMBOL.
Believer or not (and I’m not), the RS guru dynamic is extrmely powerful, and I’ve without doubt experienced things which I cannot explain, even with all the pomp of recent neurological research etc
Tao, once again, demonstrates his lack of understanding and experience in these matters.
And, rather than LISTENING to what Gaurav is saying, simply prefers to bang on his own drum oblviious to what is actually being said to him###
“”Gaurav: I headed to Beas. On the way I looked with disdain at poor souls lined up before Gurudwaras, Temple , churches. I thought, poor fellows […] I at least have the presence of supreme lord.”
Tao — you were (and still are) arrogant and elitist. but you are really no better than anyone. in facty, quite possibly worse.”
###so, Gaurav expresses how we should be more open minded & non-judgemental – and Tao responds with an outrageously ‘elitist’, arrogant & judgemental remark, saying that it is Gaurav who is those things?
Anybody see a wee bit of irony (and lack of self-awareness) there? :-/########
“”Gaurav: He is not saying or doing anything to excite people or wow the crowd.”
Tao: — that is abslote utter nonsense. he plays and manipulatres the crowd far more than any of his predecessors.”
###Manjit: Really Tao? So, how many Gurinder satsangs (and Charan, actually) have you been to? Dates & places please?
We both know you talk rubbish, just to make a point, don’t we Tao? I’ve caught you out way, way too many times – which is why I understand what you’re all about:
Playing & manipulating the crowd.
Very, very Lame####
“Tao — this indicates that you were initiated only a mere 15 days prior to the date of your comment (January 08, 2010). so you really have no experience whatsoever. on the other hand, myself and a few others here each have vastly more exerience – over 30 years of experience – since initiation. therefore, why do you assume that you are in any way qualified to be discussing and preaching about these things? and do you not know that your master himself has forbid all initiated RS satsangis from discussing sant mat & RS in any form on the internet? so by posting comments about your meditation, the RS teachings, etc, you are directly violating your own master’s orders and formal published instructions. that is not a very good way to start or proceed on the path. ”
####Manjit: Tao – what makes YOU think you are qualified to discuss & preach about RS? You’ve stated here before, you’ve never believed in RS?
And, in the past, I’ve asked about your experience with Shabd (after you wrote a post about having ‘deeply’ experienced it…..subsequently deleted after my questions) before, and it seems to me sadly lacking in any kind of substance whatsoever? Have you even been able to reach the very first ‘stage’? Were you ever able to sit for more than 10 mins?
There are people who’ve been initiates for 60 years, who still believe – does that make everyone on this forum ‘unqualified’ to discuss or criticise them?
The way you resort to (feigned) ‘experience’ is exceptionally lame. Stand on your own two feet, and don’t play games of heirarchy.
I’ve met children wiser than both you or I, regardless of how many hours I’ve sat in meditation, or gurus you’ve claimed to have schmoozed.
Deal with it.#####
“”truth still exists but our intellect/consciousness/perception has come so far away from it that we are not able to see truth.”
— again, speak only for yourself. you have no business speaking for others. and what do you know of “truth”?? much less the fact that you have been on the spiritual path but a very very short time… in comparison to my own case of more than 40 years of experience and over-all spiritual sadhana (from 1966 to 2010). you really should learn to listen more and think long and carefully before you speak make assumptions and jump to conclusions without having real knowledge.”
###Manjit: who cares about your ’40 years of sadhnana?? WHY should people listen and think long about what you say Tao?
You are no authority even on this forum, let alone in major decisions in peoples lives Tao.
Is that it? The feeling that all these RS gurus have people who actually listen and respect them?
You can NEVER DEMAND that kind of respect Tao, no matter how long & hard you bang you drum.
In fact, you can bet your life that those who DEMAND it, like you have here, very rarely ever deserve it.#####
This could go on & on, but just how worthwhile is it responding to replies like:
“– what a gullible fool you were.”
????

Dear manjitd,
I fully agree with your above comments. But I would have loved if you would have avoided it.
I am glad that you are aware of 2 cases when spiritual progress stopped………….
with regards,

Manjitd,
I think tAo does effectively deconstruct (tear to shreds) RS dogma because I see the subject pretty much the same way he does. The difference between us is style. Certain blunt attacks he makes may not be intellectually satisfying to some and considered rude or crude, but because I know where tAo is coming from I tend to agree with him. So, I guess you could say we share the same bias on the subject.
You wrote: “If a satsangi responded to posts like that – I personally have no doubt they would pretty shortly be moderated here. Personaly abuse, empty rhetoric, inability to ENGAGE with a person, prefering instead stock cliche phrases. Just 2 sides of the same coin, imo.”
–That’s just it. Most satsangis here, with a few exceptions, do not ENGAGE. They just preach and have the very difficulty you claim that tAo has. So he just shoves it back at them in no uncertain terms. I have seen tAo have reasonable discussions with people when they are willing to openly discuss without adherence to dogma.
Maybe I’ll have more to say on your long post above later. Gotta go.

manjitd wrote: “Just to interject my personal opinion, based on, errm, ACTUAL meditation (not claims thereof), I don’t believe the guru stops (or even has the ability to stop) an initiates ‘inner progress’. What, imo, I believe happens is that a persons *attention* which was previously focussed solely on the ‘inner’ side (disregarding outer concerns), then gets over-excited and starts ‘losing’ their attention OUTSIDE again (talking about the experiences etc), making it difficult to withdraw again, all progress being lost. On TOP of that, imo, the conceptual guilt for breaking vows builds another mental barrier to withdrawal. I’ve seen it with my own eyes, it can get quite painful for the initiate in question, stuck in a double bind, and desperate to have the same experiences as previously….#####”
tucson responds–All this to me, not intending disrespect, is just junk that comes up in the mind of someone who thinks, lives, and looks as from a phenomenal center. When it is seen that this center does not exist then all such problems go away and one is free.
manjitd presented…””Gaurav: Everyone sees the master in the color of glasses he/she is wearing!”
Tao — there is no “master”. this is a myth. it is an idea used to manipulate ignorant or naive people like yourself. you have been folled, and now you are fooling yourself.”
###Manjit: I think this is a very insightful comment from Gaurav – the guru-figure-symbol becomes like a mirror for the disciple (regardless of whether the ‘guru’ is a genuine good person, or a criminal fraud).
tucson responds–I think this is true of whoever we encounter whether it be a guru, a friend, a thug or anyone. Eventually we see it is all the same Being.
manjitd wrote: “There is an incredibly powerful dynamic that can & does occur between the disciple, and the guru SYMBOL…Believer or not (and I’m not), the RS guru dynamic is extrmely powerful, and I’ve without doubt experienced things which I cannot explain, even with all the pomp of recent neurological research etc”
tucson responds–I too have experienced powerful things in the presence of the Guru AS WELL AS in the presence of so called ordinary people. What I realized was that it was “myself” recognizing “myself”. So, I agree that a guru figure can be a catalyst for awakening to how things are, but so can anything else.
manjitd provided: “”Gaurav: I headed to Beas. On the way I looked with disdain at poor souls lined up before Gurudwaras, Temple , churches. I thought, poor fellows […] I at least have the presence of supreme lord.”
Tao — you were (and still are) arrogant and elitist. but you are really no better than anyone. in facty, quite possibly worse.”
tucson responds–Frankly, I can understand why tAo reacted to guarav’s statement as he did considering the way gaurav phrased it. The word “disdain” may be the key here as it means ‘to look upon with scorn’. Perhaps one or more people here do not understand the meaning of the word.
manjit wrote: “###so, Gaurav expresses how we should be more open minded & non-judgemental – and Tao responds with an outrageously ‘elitist’, arrogant & judgemental remark, saying that it is Gaurav who is those things?”
tucson responds–Is it being non-judgemental for gaurav to look upon someone with “disdain” as he said he did? Perhaps the problem is in gaurav’s misunderstanding of the meaning of “disdain” which is the source of difficulty here. tAo simply responded to the word gaurav chose to use.
So when manjitd says, “Anybody see a wee bit of irony (and lack of self-awareness) there? :-/########”, perhaps it is manjitd who is misunderstanding tAo due to a prejudice he has against tAo?
manjitd provided: “”Gaurav: He is not saying or doing anything to excite people or wow the crowd.”
Tao: — that is abslote utter nonsense. he plays and manipulatres the crowd far more than any of his predecessors.”
###Manjit: Really Tao? So, how many Gurinder satsangs (and Charan, actually) have you been to? Dates & places please?
tucson interjects–It is tAo’s right to express his opinion based upon what he knows about the gurus. Based on tAo’s past writings I would say he has enough experience to make that statement even if some may disagree with him.
manjid wrote: “We both know you talk rubbish, just to make a point, don’t we Tao? I’ve caught you out way, way too many times – which is why I understand what you’re all about: Playing & manipulating the crowd. Very, very Lame####”
tucson responds–I think you are showing prejudice against tAo because you don’t like him. If you don’t like his “cult goon” remarks then explain why you disagree to tAo rather than resorting to unbecoming tactics similar to those you accuse him of.
manjitd provided: “Tao — this indicates that you were initiated only a mere 15 days prior to the date of your comment (January 08, 2010). so you really have no experience whatsoever. on the other hand, myself and a few others here each have vastly more exerience – over 30 years of experience – since initiation. therefore, why do you assume that you are in any way qualified to be discussing and preaching about these things? and do you not know that your master himself has forbid all initiated RS satsangis from discussing sant mat & RS in any form on the internet? so by posting comments about your meditation, the RS teachings, etc, you are directly violating your own master’s orders and formal published instructions. that is not a very good way to start or proceed on the path. ”
####Manjit: Tao – what makes YOU think you are qualified to discuss & preach about RS? You’ve stated here before, you’ve never believed in RS?”
tucson responds–tAo is qualified to comment on RS because he does have knowledge and experience with it, especially its fundamental dogma as it relates to other spiritual paths and approaches to Reality. He certainly is correct about the master’s instructions for satsangis not to engage in discussions on the internet.
manjitd wrote: “And, in the past, I’ve asked about your experience with Shabd (after you wrote a post about having ‘deeply’ experienced it…..subsequently deleted after my questions) before, and it seems to me sadly lacking in any kind of substance whatsoever? Have you even been able to reach the very first ‘stage’? Were you ever able to sit for more than 10 mins?”
tucson responds–This appears to be rather presumptive and prejudiced on your part to me.
Manjitd: “There are people who’ve been initiates for 60 years, who still believe – does that make everyone on this forum ‘unqualified’ to discuss or criticise them?”
tucson–That’s not what tAo was saying, imo.
manjitd: “The way you resort to (feigned) ‘experience’ is exceptionally lame. Stand on your own two feet, and don’t play games of heirarchy.”
tucson–tAo stands on his own two feet far more often than other dogma preachers on this blog.
manjitd wrote: “I’ve met children wiser than both you or I, regardless of how many hours I’ve sat in meditation, or gurus you’ve claimed to have schmoozed.”
tucson responds–What is the use of that statement?
Gaurav wrote: “truth still exists but our intellect/consciousness/perception has come so far away from it that we are not able to see truth.”
tAo responded– “again, speak only for yourself. you have no business speaking for others. and what do you know of “truth”?? much less the fact that you have been on the spiritual path but a very very short time… in comparison to my own case of more than 40 years of experience and over-all spiritual sadhana (from 1966 to 2010). you really should learn to listen more and think long and carefully before you speak make assumptions and jump to conclusions without having real knowledge.”
Manjit responded: “who cares about your ’40 years of sadhnana?? WHY should people listen and think long about what you say Tao? You are no authority even on this forum, let alone in major decisions in peoples lives Tao.Is that it? The feeling that all these RS gurus have people who actually listen and respect them? You can NEVER DEMAND that kind of respect Tao, no matter how long & hard you bang you drum. In fact, you can bet your life that those who DEMAND it, like you have here, very rarely ever deserve it.”
tucson responds–It is obvious manjit, again, that you have a visceral dislike for tAo and a personal vendetta against him. I am not sure that you are displaying qualities any more admirable than the qualities of tAo that you profess to dislike.

People used to faint in blissful delirium (girls mostly) when they saw their beloved Beatles. Does this mean they were/are divine beings? Maybe.
Regardless, an intense emotional experience in the presence of somebody doesn’t mean anything…except that an intense emotional experience has occurred in the presence of somebody.

Yes, Blogger Brian.
As you said in your agnosticism post, “After all, before we can love somebody, or some thing, we have to know that person or entity. Otherwise we’re simply loving our own imagination, concept, thought, emotion, or whatever.”
–I think that is exactly what many are doing when they profess love for the guru. They love what they think the guru is supposed to be doing for them which gets built up in their minds and not the guru as he simply is. It’s disguised selfishness. Most satsangis have never even seen the guru or have only seen him from a distance a few times.
I know, the guru has the magical ability to reach the disciple in mystical ways across the oceans and continents or even to a person at the back of an auditorium.

Tucson,
I wonder if this “magical ways” from a guru, across the oceans and continents, may actually be coming from a group leader of the guru? Could there be magical ways coming from a local, regional, or national representative? When you joined RSSB, didn’t you receive magical inspiration from someone, in your local area first?

Dear Rakesh – I have to say I find your manner on this forum very graceful, and therefore will take your observations into mind – can you please explain why you rather I didn’t ‘do it’?
Sometimes, an issue needs to be raised to bring an issue to light, or into consciousness – people can make their own judgements from there!
Cheers.
Hi Tucson – whilst I tend to agree fulyl with your conceptions – I have no doubt that conceptual knowledge doesn’t make anybody either wiser, more knowledgeable, more contented, more at peace with themselves etc etc.
As I stated to Tao – I, personally, would ANY DAY prefer to believe in the ‘delusion’ of the RS model than believe in a whole host of paranoid conspiracy theories. So, being no better of *apparently*, why shout so loud?
As for my ‘visceral’ dislike for your buddy Tao – you appear to have no idea how many of his posts (mostly deleted) on another forum I have read, as well as here.
I’m sorry – you really have no idea how much mistruths and outright lies I’ve witnessed.
You can place as much ‘knowledge and experience’ of RS onto him as you like – simply doesn’t make it true.
And you can believe all his vast array pf fantastical, yet completely un-substantiated in any way whatsoever claims, re his ‘sadhna’ or whatever – still doesn’t make it true – I, for one, am a 100% we’re discussing a liar here – in fact, I know it for a fact.
As for your equating my ‘style’ with his – you’ll notice no meaningless juvenile abuse or profanity was used, and that I only raise this issue every several months, 2 or 3 times a year. Unlike his continuous harassment of anyone with a midly positive view.
Also – it is Tao’s right to express his ‘views’ about Gurinder’s presentation style, in comparison to all other gurus – if he hasn’t even once (let alone enough times to make a valid judgement) seen him?
Hmmmm – I think I understand. Even lies in support of your ‘crusade’ are deemed insightful – how very sad, imo.
Don’t you like it when your resident bully gets bullied back – in the very same manner of ‘disdain’ he communicates with those he thinks he can argue with without any come backs?
I also think you missed the point on several other issues, for eg when he wrote:
“manjit wrote: “###so, Gaurav expresses how we should be more open minded & non-judgemental – and Tao responds with an outrageously ‘elitist’, arrogant & judgemental remark, saying that it is Gaurav who is those things?”
tucson responds–Is it being non-judgemental for gaurav to look upon someone with “disdain” as he said he did? Perhaps the problem is in gaurav’s misunderstanding of the meaning of “disdain” which is the source of difficulty here. tAo simply responded to the word gaurav chose to use.
So when manjitd says, “Anybody see a wee bit of irony (and lack of self-awareness) there? :-/########”, perhaps it is manjitd who is misunderstanding tAo due to a prejudice he has against tAo?”
NO -re-read all original posts – Gaurav was stating PRECISELY that his ORIGINAL view was arrogant & misplaced.
Therefore YOU, dispite my clarification, are ‘misunderstandiong’ the point due to ‘prejudice’.
Anyway, I shall let you guys get back to your wonderful crusade of turning people from the dark side to the immense light you all now seem to inhabit – even if, to me, it doesn’t quite appear that way.
Life’s complicated, and you’re all getting very dogmatic & 1 dimensional in your criticisms – kinda like mindless satsangis 🙂
Peace

Some people get their kicks from meditating 5 hours a day.
Some people from engaging in 5 hours of posting on blogs and forums.
SOme people from believing that the American government did the 9/11 attacks, sends out planes with chemtrails poisining en masse, or that a meteor will strike earth any minute now.
Please pardon this fool – who is better off than whom?
Don’t mistake me for a ‘believer’ – every *cogent* argument that Tao has ever made here has been made by myself BEFORE on another forum.
My question is something else.
What are we providing others?
What are we trying so hard to ‘convert’ others too?
Our wonderfully ecstatic ways of looking at life?
DO we HAVE to generalise every satsangi as some poor deluded, miserable sap (there are many, but by no means all, or even majority?) that needs to have their mind-set-straight?
We’re all poor deluded ignorant fools, suffering as clear as day – why shout so loud?
Oh yeah! Precisely BECAUSE of that suffering!
(yeah, inc me)

manjit wrote “in quotes”. tucson’s replies are preceded by two hash marks —
“You can place as much ‘knowledge and experience’ of RS onto him as you like – simply doesn’t make it true.”
–tAo does have more than sufficient experience with RS to make informed comments on the subject as evidenced by the accurate, imo, content of the body of his commentaries on this blog.
“And you can believe all his vast array pf fantastical, yet completely un-substantiated in any way whatsoever claims, re his ‘sadhna’ or whatever – still doesn’t make it true – I, for one, am a 100% we’re discussing a liar here – in fact, I know it for a fact.”
— I believe my remarks dealt mostly with issues raised against tAo’s commenting style and your opposition to him than anything else. I am not concerned with any of his personal life or claims about that.
“As for your equating my ‘style’ with his – you’ll notice no meaningless juvenile abuse or profanity was used, and that I only raise this issue every several months, 2 or 3 times a year. Unlike his continuous harassment of anyone with a midly positive view.”
–Personal attacks veiled in polite language are still personal attacks.
“Also – it is [is it] Tao’s right to express his ‘views’ about Gurinder’s presentation style, in comparison to all other gurus – if he hasn’t even once (let alone enough times to make a valid judgement) seen him?”
–If he claims to have seen gurinder singh how do you know he hasn’t?
“Don’t you like it when your resident bully gets bullied back – in the very same manner of ‘disdain’ he communicates with those he thinks he can argue with without any come backs?”
–He’s a big boy and can take it or leave it. It’s up to him. I just felt motivated to chime in for some reason this time, but it really doesn’t concern me and I think I’m about done.
“I also think you missed the point on several other issues,” (here Manjitd is referring to a discussion where the word “disdain” was used)
— My remarks still stand due to the apparant misunderstanding of either the word “disdain” or the context/usage of the word by one or both parties.
“Anyway, I shall let you guys get back to your wonderful crusade of turning people from the dark side to the immense light you all now seem to inhabit – even if, to me, it doesn’t quite appear that way.”
–Sounds reasonable despite the sarcasm.
“Life’s complicated, and you’re all getting very dogmatic & 1 dimensional in your criticisms – kinda like mindless satsangis :)”
–Please keep in mind no one is compelling you to listen or participate.
“Peace”
–We’ll see. Read manjitd’s comment he posted at 11:51 AM above after saying “peace” in his previous comment to me.
And the beat goes on as tAo likes to say.

Hi Tucson,
it looks like I’ve hurt yout feelings by criticising the playground bully? Awwww.
EVen going as far as to quote ‘tAo’ (? how very cute) in your last line, as if a cry for his re-appearance.
He he.
You’ll forgive me if I find this all quite sad. But touchingly humourous too.
As well as the defeatest tone of your post; “I’m done”, “no-one is compelling you to read…”
Guess it’s easier beating up on people who aren’t clued in a little bit more, or who are neither gullible or impressed enough by the hot air that passes for penetrating insight into the *entire* value of the phenomena of RS that goes on here?
It’s okay Tucson, I’ve had my fill of the dynamic that is this forum for another couple of months, y’all can rest easy nobody will challenge you in any way, allowing your soap-box crusade to continue.
I’ll leave you with a question though;
how to differentiate between imitators and parrot-like ramblers (that any fool can do), and somebody with real & valid insight into RS?
How to differentiate between those who express their personal frsutrations & lack of satisfaction with their own experiences in flowery philosophical language with the aim of appearing wise (demanding respect, weven when it’s not due), and those who genuinely understand the path, it’s limitations, and have real care & concern for the people who follow these paths (as opposed to using every human being in these RS orgs as a foil to manufacture the illusion of wisdom & superiority)?
Good questions, I think.
I mean, does anybody real CARE about these delusional RS satsangis that we’re trying to save from the dark side of guru-cult-gonnyism?
Hmmm.
Adeiu all.

Manjitd,
I’m not taking the bait.

Manjit: “I mean, does anybody real CARE about these delusional RS satsangis that we’re trying to save from the dark side of guru-cult-gonnyism?
Hmmm.”
Interesting question. For all the justifying of some of Tao’s responses based on the ‘tough love’ excuse, do we really know if his comments are really expressions of love and care? Do we know if they are really working as opposed to being detrimental, excessive and missing their assumed goals?
When Tucson repeatedly excuses Tao, he makes important ‘leaps of faith’ regarding several issues that he cannot known of for sure … In the end, the intention may be more self-serving than it may appear to many on this blog … Should we just believe S. Palin because she says so?
Should someone be so quick to excuse another, sometimes apparently even before the action has been done …

Manjit
Friend I have been seeing you deal with Tao – “ism” with your sleeves up.
Something Surely upset you to the core about the manner / language of the responses by Tao. The reasons were enough to upset me here aswell.
Until I tried to analyze his kinds of responses/ reputation.
I coped his response on to a word document.
using control + F. I tried to use the ‘find’ function to locate and count the following phrases for no. of times it was used in his response (unsolicited) to my general writing (not at all addressed to him directly). These phrases were used by him to directly refer to me personally rather my statements :
1. non-sense – 7
2. Confused – 7
3. Brain washed -6 times
4. fool – 6
5. Arrogant -4 times
6. Miserable – 2.
Then I searched back this thread only to analyze his past behavior /reputation,
I was able to dig up following two revelations:
———————————–
Now, this is where we miss Tao.
Tao should have been here now to give Eric a shock therapy.
Brian, this is the reason why I support Tao. His shock therapy was good. I am not good at that game though I tried it.
Posted by: Deepak Kamat | March 01, 2008 at 07:06 PM
The way AO+ expressed his feeling in very nice manner and as a good human being. He displayed he is having good etiquette. Don’t follow to anyone else, Just follow him and it is sure that you will be heading in right direction.
Posted by: Eric | April 23, 2009 at 07:29 PM

——————————–
I see a pattern here.Turning to my basic human behavioral, lessons I concluded I should get away holding my my nose tight close. Same is mine suggestion to you as well.
I still tried to find the positive out of all of these personally.
Until I came across the following statement from Tao.
Ultimately what “God”?? where is this “God”??
This inspired the new topic for my articulated meditation.
P.S. – Articulated meditation is different from silent meditation.
Here I try to meditate on topic/ concept and try to give them words. Not just feelings, expressionless understandings, perceptions. Hope to give it some shape and paste here again sometime in future.
Thank you. cheers. peace.

gaurav, I like your analytic approach. Nice use of the “find” feature. If you analyzed my comments “demonstrable evidence” would pop up frequently. Yes, each of us has our favorite words/terms, which reflect the content of our minds.

gaurav,
I think you are onto something.
“Ultimately what “God”?? where is this “God”??”
The widely respected sage Ramana Maharshi used to suggest going deeply into this issue…
“Who am I? Where is this “I” that I think I am? How does it arise and from what? What is it about “I” that is real, permanent, lasting? What is it’s shape, it’s boundaries?
See what, if anything , you discover.

Love you bhaie, for whatever you have written. For me it seems like you were sent here for a mission, to show light for people like me who could have lost-shaken their way-belief because of all the -vity on the internet. Again my sincere advice to all the people, pls discover the path, walk on the path, practice it practically all by yourself first, before making any decisions to turn away. All that is require on the path is “love” nothing else, because everything else comes automatically-free with love.
Gaurav bhai, sincere advice to you as well, you know it very well. Pls don’t come back (don’t let your mind to drag you into this forum) as this is just wastage of your precious time.
Whatever you have written is more than enough for true seekers. God bless you, Go away bhai, go away, just concentrate on your primary goal.
I have read this forum quite a lot, today I feel I am blessed, I am satisfied.
Thank U.

The comments section of this post must be the most hilarious discussion in all of existence.Including my comment it now spans about 6 years and some really fine points and arguments are made.Some by a few regulars as well as my all time favorite words from a ‘scientist’ who thinks anyone who doesn’t believe that statues drink milk is an absolute moron. Someone should publish this whole gem in paper format unedited. Classic stuff .