It's always a pleasure to hear from someone who has become disillusioned with a religion. In this case, it was a person who had a history fairly similar to mine with an India-based religion, Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), that is headed up by a guru.
Below you can read the document this person sent to me that's called "The Grand Disillusion." They want to remain anonymous, but said I could share this info about them. The Dera is the RSSB headquarters in the Punjab. Gurinder Singh is the current RSSB guru. Charan Singh was the guru prior to Gurinder Singh. Satsang is a spiritual meeting.
You could let people know I first became involved with RSSB when I was 17 and I am now 69 and spent 15 months at Dera. The disillusionment started with Gurinder Singh. I am cool with Charan Singh but now I must wonder about him because he appointed Gurinder Singh. I still do the meditation as taught to me by Charan Singh and deep down in some crazy place I think that just maybe a glowing man in a beard and turban will appear in my forehead. I have not gone to satsang for the past 20 years.
Here's what this person wrote.
THE GRAND DISILLUSION
In Sikh cosmology the Grand Dissolution occurs between enormous spans of time where the entire creation is dissolved and reborn. This video is a description of the Grand Dissolution made by Ishwar Puri, a Sawan Singh initiate. It sounds like the ramblings of a crazy man but there was a time when I believed it. I had my own Grand Disillusion with RSSB but I don’t expect anything to be reborn.
It started when I was working in the computer room at the Dera and I saw they were using bootleg software which is equivalent to stealing from the software developer. The lesson learned: It is ok to steal.
Then I saw the laundryman beat the hell out of one of his staff who was only a child. I told the guest house manager Mr. Desai (who grew up in Gandhi’s ashram) about it expecting him to protect the child. Instead, his eyes flashed in anger and he told me to keep my mouth shut. The lesson learned: beating the hell out of children is OK.
I re-read Sheena’s book, "Memoirs of a Seeker," excerpts from which can be found on this website. In it she mentions that a known pedophile was in Gurinder Singh’s entourage. Another account on this website mentions a question and answer session where a woman did not know what to do about her husband molesting their daughter. Gurinder Singh told her to “be more loving” which doomed the girl to untold amounts of abuse. The lesson learned: molesting children is ok.
Sheena also mentions the cutting and devastating remark from Gurinder Singh about her “sleeping around” in front of 50 or so people. The lesson learned: it is ok to hurt and embarrass people.
Based on the events described in this biography I know exactly who Sheena is and she is not a liar. If you really want to know what Gurinder Singh is like I suggest you read the last 1/3 of this short book that relates to RSSB. Sheena, I would like to write to you. If you are reading this maybe you can write Brian who can give you my email address.
Here I will compare what I saw and what I was taught.
Be Content: Be content with what you have. Look at the example of Jagat Singh who refused the gift of a shawl with the response that he kept one in the laundry and one on his person. He said having more than he needed would only complicate his life.
The amount of possessions you will ever own in this life were all predetermined before you were born. This cannot be increased or diminished so be happy with what you have.
Don’t become obsessed with money. Read Charan Singh's strong words about speculating in the stock market.
This is what I saw: Don’t be content even if you have 150 million dollars. Instead speculate in real estate and engage in dishonest financial dealings with shell companies where you and your family members will be enriched far beyond one’s needs. Lesson learned: Greed and dishonesty are OK.
Be Compassionate: Do not eat meat because it causes pain to the animals. Spiritually minded people are extremely kind hearted and they shy away from hurting any living creature.
This is what I saw: Ignore the dairy industry which is far more brutal than the meat industry. India is the largest producer of dairy products in the world and is also the second largest exporter of beef after Brazil. There is a cruel and brutal line between Indian dairies, lassies at the Dera snack bar, and the murder of millions of cows. If geckos are bothering you at the Dera guest house just tell the office and they will send someone to kill them.
In Petaluma someone asked Gurinder Singh about dairy products and if he had seen the websites that explore its brutality. He cut the questioner off with the statement that “not all countries treat their dairy cows like this” and then quickly went on to the next question. My thought was “torture is not allowed in all countries” so I guess I should be able to torture people. Lesson learned: Exploitation of animals is ok.
The guru is only pretending to be like everyone else because God told him to pretend he was like everyone else. Don’t expect him to know your name or forecast the weather or the real estate market.
All true gurus live in the will of the lord and do not break the laws of nature by performing miracles or using their abilities to forecast the future, even if they have a lot invested in the real estate market. This is because they are obedient sons of God and live in the will of the Lord.
The other answer could be they are human beings just like everyone else.
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Makes some great points. Some qualifications I have:
1) The Grand Dissolution: The Hindu concept of Mahapralaya finds some support in scientific cosmology, but certain parallels are noteworthy. Grok this for an interesting summary. No point in getting into the weeds on cosmology. But I think the idea that it’s perfectly natural for the universe to originate itself and exist is as ridiculous as anything found in Hindu scripture.
2) The accounts of bad behavior at the dera are disturbing and believable. Believable because corporal punishment is still extremely common in India. Who knows if satsangis are more enlightened on this practice than Indian non-satsangis. “Sheena’s” anecdote about Gurinder condoning child abuse may be true, but to my knowledge, no one has come forward to corroborate her account. This is complicated by those in attendance believing that Gurinder is a Godman who can do no wrong.
3) Real estate speculation: I’m not familiar with Charan’s “strong words about speculating in the stock market.” But I am familiar with his admission that he lost his shirt in some speculation deal, and this was after he became guru. The Retired RSSB Scholar has said that Charan made significant income from his real estate holdings. This may be speculation of a different kind, for I doubt if anyone really knows how Charan had no visible means of employment for almost 40 years but somehow supported his family in grand style. It must be acknowledge the all the RSSB gurus from Sawan Singh onward somehow amassed a shitton of real estate, precisely how, no one is saying, and one one seems to care, except for Gurinder.
That said, I believe the basic charges against Gurinder’s financial dealings are disturbing. Ask Grok about it if you don’t believe me, as it gives a stellar comprehensive breakdown of the issue. While it’s true that Gurinder has not been found guilty in court of his part in these dealings, the entire matter still stinks.
Meat and Dairy: Strange but true, India’s dairy industry is probably crueler to animals than their meat industry. So we should all be vegan. But then, crops devoted to human consumption still necessitate the slaughter of animals. Perhaps it works out less than animal-based farming, but kill we must, so there’s still no cruelty-free human diet that’s sustainable for a large society.
Theology of Godman Darshan: I agree here. For all the effort that RSSB makes in arguing that “The Path” is found in the teachings of ancient Indian gurus, it’s at best only half true. In respect to meditating to someday see the inner guru in one’s 3rd eye, it’s not true. Neither Kabir or Guru Nanak or any of the Sikh gurus ever mentioned seeing the inner guru. Seeing the radiant form of the guru is a teaching that began with Shiv Dayal Singh. It has no historical antecedent.
Although it is “old wine in new bottles” i did read it a couple of times hoping to find something “new”. beyond what has said over these things many times ..
The first what came up waqs .. hé, he missed the the snuggling of the watches story.
But then when I decide to leave this dead corpse of a cow and forget about it, while making coffee a strange observation arose in my mind.
The last month, I have been reading and watching on and of some stuff on the late Uchiyama, and his predecessor Sawaki the previous abbot and teacher of the renowned antaiji Soto Zen Monastery mostly because of the way they lived and how the ended up as monks, starting in the slums of Japan ..very straightforward no nonsense characters reading their adventure made me laugh several times. Have a look on “the internet on the cover of “to you, zen sayings of kodo Sawaki” and you might understand …That picture is not the picture of an cat clean Zen Master we are used to in the west.
So far so good ..these characters stress in their teachings that if your practice is not directed towards the welfare of the community of humanity, it values nothing.
You would aspect that the issues that are discussed in this blog entrance are in some way addressed in their teachings and the daily business of the monastery. But not at all, I can’t remember that the questions raised here about animal welfare etc etc, was ever addressed, not by these teachers, their students from all over the world the clergy etc that run the daily affairs of the monastery. They all were focused on their individual performances to the complete exclusion of everything else.
Strange enough the opposite is to be found in those involved in the Path of the saints. It has been my understanding over the years that the whole running of the Dera is focused on the idea of leaving this world behind, focusing on meditation and interact with the world only top the extend that is necessary ….and certainly not improve the world …against this background one would aspect the followers to live as “recluses” and have their whole live like Cartesian monks d and nuns organised around their spiritual work, yet their attention is almost always drawn into the affairs of the world, given the many question and answers over the years.
So the zen people are individualistic oriented in their mental attitude and the sant mat people altruistic
Funny, indeed
Enjoyed reading your correspondent’s account. Astute observations. Obvious conclusion: They’re a bunch of hypocrites, each and every one of them, the guru down.
The pirated software thing was amusing: agreed, that speaks to the general ethical and moral ethos of the place. While the beating the child thing was completely disgusting. Both the laundryman and this Desai person are low assholes, and deserve to be thrown in jail, and if in a corrupt environment that’s not possible, then both deserve to be thrashed soundly. As does Gurinder, for facilitating pedophiles as well as the Sheena thing. Shame, complete shame.
Amusing, though, your correspondent’s continued hope of seeing a refulgent Charan Singh inside. If such did appear, so what? How does that benefit him at all, unless he buys into a whole bunch of unsupported crap? And if he does buy into that crap, then those observations of his can be addressed and handwaved away very easily without detracting from the faith.
———-
Not singling out RSSB, by the way, as far as I’m concerned. Mainstream halfwittery by Jesus worshipers is even more oafish, and the hypocrisy of covering up pedophilia for instance, as well as many many other such matters, are even more egregious in Christianity. And as for Islam (mainstream Islam, not Sufi mysticism), the less said the better. Likewise Judaism as well, that draws from the vileness of the Old Testament and the vile monster Yahweh that it/they worship —- the best that can be said about Judaism is that the tradition has peoduced very smart people, very many of whom no longer believe that nonsense.
———-
The thing about dairy? Well said.
I’m an ethical vegetarian myself. I agree, exploitation for dairy is pretty much horrendous when you think about it. And yet I myself don’t stay away from dairy.
I suppose I do that by not thinking about this much, or at all. To be honest, no more than convenience trumping empathy. Which speaks poorly about me. Which points out to an odd, and I suppose somewhat hypocritical, disconnect between my vegetarianism and my not (yet) having sworn off dairy.
Well, at least I don’t go around pretending to be the font of all goodness and virtue, nor some divine refulgent being. …Agreed, this is a very serious matter, both in and of itself, and also in context of what this says about GSD (his indifference when this was pointed out to him, I mean).
…I’m curious about this: Has your correspondent himself gone vegan? Kudos to him if he has. (No judgment if he hasn’t. I haven’t either, like I said, and am in no position to cast stones.)
———-
A small, incidental correction here, if I may. I haven’t checked out the references and vids linked, but the creation-dissolution cycle, and the rest of it, while it may be part of Sikh doctrine, but it predates Sikhism by centuries, millennia. That cosmology one sees in ancient Indian texts, Hindu and Buddhistic and Jain, that is from many many many centuries before Guru Gobind, or Guru Nanak for that matter. I can’t recall which texts specifically, but certainly they’re part of some Upanishada/s and/or Purana/s. (Although the earliest Vedic accounts are refreshingly shrug-shoulders-who-knows-y. I refer particularly to the Ka verses in the Rig Veda.)
My point is, the creation-dissolution is ancient mainstream Indic/Hindu theology, and while it may be subscribed to by Sikhism, but it is hardly “Sikh cosmology”.
“Exploitation of animals is ok.”
I was a child during Charan Singh’s time and I personally saw how the sevadars deal brutally with stray dogs and drive them away from the Dera premises, even during satsangs when Charan Singh sit on the stage and preach kindness.
Plz Add one more thing
“Criticizing other religions, finding flaws in the practices of other religions are also OK for RSSB and their Guru’s.”
Nepotism is also Okay For RSSB and their Guru’s.
Living a luxurious life on the money donated by the sangat is also Okay for RSSB and GSD.
I think the RSSB saints were right about meditating in the early morn. For me it’s around 3am when I wake do the YT Monroe Discovery Wave track 1,read a bit then get into that drowzy no thought sleepy state and go back to bed. Then I’m off to what my sidekick has for me that night.
This night I was in a top extravagant hotel on the other side. I looked at the walls which were all carved in exquisite detail. I thought wow no flaws I thought. I know defects in drywall mud as I am mudding a room myself. I went walking through the hotel dining area and Kristoferson and his wife were dining at a table of 6. Chris was momentarily leaving his table with his wife and some others tried to claim it. Some people interfered and said they were coming back.
World upon Worlds upon Worlds are ready for your exploration as Neville Goddard and Jurgen Ziewe both said.
It makes the day so much more enjoyable.
If this justifies Atheism then it all falls into line. All have feet of clay.
In this world, there is no place that doesn’t require mind. And mind is very limited. It convinces us that wrong is right, simply out of convenience and habit. And then such rules, such hypocracies, become our sacred and unquestioned ethics.
Better to be an atheist, a nihilist, in such places, if we are using the darkness we see in others to also take a harder look at ourselves.
But there are other places, incredible destinations, where mind cannot enter, nor can mind’s ability to discriminate function there in any way at all.
And yet such places prove in hard experience that we are all One, and that Love is the force of all life.
And these experiences inform our life here.
We are much less ambitious, much less concerned, and that may weaken our usefulness here, because this is just a tiny stop, and everyone, on a grand scale, is no more nor less than one brilliant point of light and love, however confused about that they may be here.
The account of The Grand Disillusion mirrors what many former followers of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) have felt—especially under the leadership of Gurinder Singh Dhillon. It’s painful to reconcile the lofty spiritual teachings of compassion, truth, and simplicity with the disturbing behavior attributed to him and those around him.
The hypocrisy is staggering: a guru who preaches detachment and warns against greed has been embroiled in massive financial scandals, including the ₹6,000 crore Religare fraud case, where Gurinder Singh and his family were named in legal proceedings for siphoning funds through shell companies. The silence and evasion when questioned—whether about child abuse, violence, or animal cruelty—betray a pattern of protecting image over integrity.
The alleged dismissal of a mother’s plea regarding her daughter’s abuse, or the reported humiliation of seekers like Sheena, reflect a troubling absence of empathy. When a spiritual leader cannot even uphold basic human decency, it calls the entire framework into question.
Yet, this disillusionment is not a failure—it’s a sign of awakening. The practice of meditation shows that spiritual experience doesn’t belong to an institution or a man in a turban. It belongs to the seeker. If more voices like this are heard, perhaps the culture of silence and blind reverence can give way to truth, accountability, and a more honest spiritual path.
Gurinder Singh Dhillon a delusional character indeed
The Grand dissolution is easily solved
Gurinder Singh Dhillon is every dissolution from Stealing is okay, beating children and molesting , hurting and embarrassing, greed dishonesty are all a OK.
Part and parcel of a disgraceful Cult
Because these are the very nature of Gurinder too why would he Not be OK with it.
Gurinder is a sicko named and shamed Baba who himself has being doing these horrible things all of his time whilst being the Head of Radha Soami Cult secretly
He has No shame doing these sick and twisted things.
A pretending parrot baba who does as he’s been told to by Kaal his God The Devil himself who Hides in plain sight as Gurinder Singh Dhilion himself, look again its there…it is
“I still do the meditation as taught to me by Charan Singh and deep down in some crazy place I think that just maybe a glowing man in a beard and turban will appear in my forehead. I have not gone to satsang for the past 20 years.”
Who is talking here? You Brian? Or the Anonymous truth teller? So why then still meditate the RSSB way if it BROKEN? Sounds hypocritical from the outset.
“The lesson learned: It is ok to steal.”
How does this truth teller know if the software is not shareware or freeware or even came with the computer? See, it’s nonsense like this the Gurus WARN about. Ways Kal will TRICK you by your Mindfullessness, then only your particular PATH is LOST!
“The lesson learned: beating the hell out of children is OK.”
This sounds like a parent who doesn’t use corporal punishment. Then the child grows up to be some serial killer. Even Maharaj Ji Charan Singh said he was caned (harsher whipping) by Hazur Sawan Singh and it was the best punishment he ever had. Kept him humble and later he went on to be Ghaddi Sat Guru that everybody loved, but now smear campaigned against today, here at COTC. Imo, this smear campaign is supernaturally hypocritical & a slap in the face of their LOVE itself.
“The lesson learned: molesting children is ok.”
The lesson here was NOT LEARNED. Baba Ji says this all the time and he was saying it again; To Change Others You Must 1st Be The Example.. That’s why Baba Ji said, ‘be more loving’. That’s the lesson here -Bub.
“The lesson learned: it is ok to hurt and embarrass people.”
Tough one here, as we need to find the rest of what mr./ms. Truth teller brings up. Maybe I could just GUESS.. Uh? Adultery IS a BAD thing, even for atheists right? (next)
Then anonymous truth teller goes on to talk about being content, quotes Sadar Bahadur Jagar Singh, then says:
“Lesson learned: Greed and dishonesty are OK.”
Now we’re back on Baba Ji’s personal life with a claim that he dishonesty made 100s of millions of dollars. But do these anonymous truth tellers even know his net worth? It’s really NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Butt, do you really know? (onwards)
Of course anonymously all this libel finalizes itself with: “Lesson learned: Exploitation of animals is ok.”
I remember this story about certain dogs had to be put down way back in the day. I also remember a LESSON on vermin. And karmic debt for cleaning out rats, ant infestation or other unwanted invading creatures EVEN WILD DOGS carried less karma because..
..Man you guys go back and read it yourself.
Radha Soami
The real lesson learned is never follow a so called self proclaimed guru, gurinder Singh dhillon, in a cult that is family run and that uses satanic mantra meditation.
All what you see in front is just a carefully manufactured image to sell a business , that get desperate people’s attention and lead them astray for most their lives.
Behind the cover is a wife murdering baba, fraudulent crook , pedophile sympathizer , sex maniac, angry control freak pretending to be a guru. A master manipulator, and heartless baba that only cares about himself and his sons. Gurinder you are exposed crook and now running to early retirement in embarrassment and shame with your legacy in tatters- its game over for you and your sickly cult!!!
“In respect to meditating to someday see the inner guru in one’s 3rd eye, it’s not true. Neither Kabir or Guru Nanak or any of the Sikh gurus ever mentioned seeing the inner guru. Seeing the radiant form of the guru is a teaching that began with Shiv Dayal Singh. It has no historical antecedent.”
-The Master is within you. He is not found by going to temples or mosques. Look within—He is the breath within your breath. — Bijak of Kabir
-O brother, the inner guide is with you. Wake up, wake up from this dream of separation.
— Anurag Sagar of Kabir
Eat Your Words, sant64!
Is Really Guru’s are Fair in India ?
Baba Gurinder Singh Dhillon has sat on the Guru Gaddi to serve the Sangat or to get himself served?
Why does Baba Gurinder Singh need a driver? Can’t he drive his own car?
Most of the Gurus have been getting their own Sangat to serve them instead of serving the Sangat.
How many sevadars work in the Dera residence of Baba Gurinder Singh and Jasdeep Singh? Are they getting fair pay scale?
In India, if the government provides government accommodation to government employees and officers, then the government employee has to deduct some money from his salary as rent for the government accommodation because that government accommodation is built with the public’s money. Do Baba Gurinder, Jasdeep Singh, their family members, their relatives pay the rent for their accommodation built in the Dera? Or is everyone having fun on the money of the Sangat?
Brian Hines wrote a book “Life is Fair” I think he should also release a second edition of this book “Life is not really fair in India”
How can life be fair in a country where the saints are not fair?
“Gurinder you are exposed crook and now running to early retirement in embarrassment and shame with your legacy in tatters- its game over for you and your sickly cult!!!”
Posted by: Kranvir | May 20, 2025 at 01:43 PM
Not too sure about that Mr. one name truth teller.
You say that he’s murdered someone. But people also die from lies spread about them.
I knew a friend who was stressed too death just because some ill informed bullies couldn’t let up on woman’s gossip.
Just like the ones who post here all their theories, but even the local Authorities saw through it.
But what if? What if the poor woman who died saw all your lies? And it made her medical condition worse? What then? Who’s the serial killer?
Sant64 wrote: “Neither Kabir or Guru Nanak or any of the Sikh gurus ever mentioned seeing the inner guru. Seeing the radiant form of the guru is a teaching that began with Shiv Dayal Singh. It has no historical antecedent”
DJ retorted with a couple of alleged Kabir quotes, adding “Eat Your Words, sant64!”
I think this is a very, very important technical issue for followers of the RS faith. I’ve been raising this issue online for a few decades, and I have yet to hear a single coherent response to this which upholds the integrity of the RS belief. I really believe if one pays very close attention to this issue, it fundamentally undermines the entire RS cosmology and belief as stated in RS books and satsangs. So for any serious seekers (are there still any following RS? ;), I recommend paying close attention:
Sant64 is at least partly correct – there is absolutely no evidence either Kabir or Nanak practiced the very basic meditation method taught by RS of placing your attention in the darkness if front of ones closed eyes and repeating a mantra, attempting to reach some sort of “radiant form” of one’s physical master. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence they practiced a method which RS schools explicitly criticise, prohibit and claim is a “lower” practice associated with Kal.
I do not believe the RS practice as it is today “Originated with Shiv Dayal Singh”, as there is at least around a century or so of lIndian gurus prior to him who seem to have believed in and practiced some form of proto-RS, or “Sant Mat”….but I think it is quite clear and obvious Nanak & Kabir practiced something actually prohibited by modern RS schools; breath control or pranayama as a primary method of achieving kundalini and inner sound immersion.
DJ provided 2 quotes in support of his belief Kabir meditated on the “radiant form” of his physical guru. I think it is worth more closely reviewing those quotes.
1) The Anurag Sagar quote: Leaving aside the deep ambiguity of the quote itself (“the inner guide is with you……wake up from the dream of separation”? This can obviously be interpreted in a myriad of ways, least likely of which is some sort of astral/radiant form being contacted imo), as well as the obvious interpretational issues (“inner guide”? It is highly unlikely the original language actually said/meant this, and has clearly been filtered through a belief system, almost certainly an RS school) – the actual author of the Anurag Sagar was NOT Kabir and it was probably authored centuries after his death. It really astonishes me that any serious reader of the texts alleged to have been authored by Kabir can even for a second imagine the mind behind the Bijak or the quotes in the Granth Sahib could possibly have authored the batshit crazy astral fantasist on display in the work of fiction Anurag Sagar. They are clearly written by 2 very, very different minds. The style, content, teachings, EVERYTHING is completely unrelated, and obviously so, imo. But to each their own level of credulity. So whilst Anurag Sagar is a fundamental text of the RS religion, it was not written by the historic personage of Kabir and imo does not reflect his beliefs even remotely.
2) The more important quote and issue is the Bijak quote: “-The Master is within you. He is not found by going to temples or mosques. Look within—He is the breath within your breath”.
Folks really need to pay close attention here – is Kabir referring to a practice forbidden by RS schools – pranayama/breath control – or is he describing meditating on the radiant/astral form of his physical master?
Leaving aside the implicit absurdity that both Kabir and Nanak spent lifetimes meditating on the radiant form of their physical masters and composing poetry, but almost never, even once, mentioning their physical master by name, I think the real clue here is in the “He is the breath within your breath”.
There’s no need for ambiguity here though.
But first let’s contextualise the fundamental inconsitency/lie at the heart of RS religious dogma; RS tells us that their basic method (simran and dhyan) is the same method used by all “Sant Mat” masters, amongst whom they claim Kabir and Nanak. Further, they claim they did not practice pranayama/breath control, avoided “kundalini”, and these are in fact dangerous, lower paths of kal which true “Sant Mat” masters like Nanak & Kabir not only avoided but criticised as inferior.
The problem with this belief though, is, that’s it’s complete bullshit and we have copious, inarguable evidence to the contrary! Unlike the vague & ambiguous attempts to connect Kabir or Nanak to some radiant form and the RS meditation method, their own words make it clear what their practice was and how they contacted the “inner sound” – pranayama and kundalini!:
“”The snake-like coil is now pierced through & through and I have
dauntlessly met my Lord, the King…
…..Merged in the Full-pervading Lord when I locked (khumbak) the breath
within, *then* (my emphasis, manjit) the celestial strain
spontaneously began to resound.”
Kabir, page 972 SGGS
“If her mind pearl, like an ornament, be weaved into the thread of
breath, and the bride puts on the decoration of compassion on her
person, then the Beloved enjoys his sweetheart”
Guru Nanak, page 359 SGGS
“The right & left nostrils are the guards of this body lyre
(harp…manjit), and this lyre synchronises a wonderful melody”
Guru Nanak, page 907 SGGS
“Put thou thy life-breath in the right channel and establish good
relation with thy Lord
In this way thy fish-like mind shall be held and thy soul-swan shall
fly not away from the Lord and thy body-wall shall not perish in
vain.”
Guru Nanak, page 991 SGGS
“Says Nanak, if in the heart of his heart man contemplates his Lord,
then with every breath of his, he quaffs nectar”
Guru Nanak, page 992 SGGS
“He then mounts his breath to the 16 petalled sky and there flutters
his wings in glee.
In the prrofound trance a tree of God becomes manifest and it dries
up the water of desire from the body-ground”
Kabir, page 970 SGGS
“I have obtained the 10th gate as a distilling fire and the channels
of the Ida and Pingala (the left & right breath channnels according
to tantra….manjit) are the funnels to suck in and spit out, and
mind as a golden vat.
In that vat, the extremely pure stream of Name Nectar trickles.
Like this I have distilled the essence of essences.
An incomparable thing has happened, my breath I have made the wine-
cup.”
Kabir, page 92 SGGS
“By turning my breath inwards, I have pierced the six body chakras
and my mind (surat) got enamoured of the Lord.”
Kabir, page 333 SGGS
“O brute of brawling and uncultured intellect, reversing thy breath
from the world, turn it thou towards thy God.
Intoxicate thou thy mind with the ambrosial stream that trickles
from the furnace of the 10th gate”
Kabir, page 1123 SGGS
I await patiently for a coherent defense of the Radhasoami dogma that a) Kabir & Nanak did not practice breath control, and b) breath control and kundalini were considered to be of “kal” by all “Sant Mat masters”, and that Kabir and Nanak were themselves “Sant Mat Masters”.
Manjit. You said:
I await patiently for a coherent defense of the Radhasoami dogma that a) Kabir & Nanak did not practice breath control, and b) breath control and kundalini were considered to be of “kal” by all “Sant Mat masters”, and that Kabir and Nanak were themselves “Sant Mat Masters”.
You are right about points a and c. On point b, “kal” simply means lesser. Why might RSSB be a higher path than Kabir and Nanak taught?
1. RSSB is a Pure Land teaching. Pure Land teachings emphasize grace, devotion, and faith as an alternative path to enlightenment.
2. Kabir, Nanak, Shiv Dayal were never about enlightenment. They taught tantric yogic paths of mystical experiences.
3. Why mystical experiences? What is the value of going to Sach Khand every morning in your meditation?
A. It weans you off worldly desires.
B. It gives you faith in the after-death life.
Pure Land teachings say that the masses (with full-time jobs) have little capacity for enlightenment. They must be given something quick, easy, and simple to live happy lives and not worry about death (of which there is nothing to worry about).
Enter Amitabha. Amitabha saves those who sincerely call upon his name and place their faith in him. So does Charan, Gurinder, Kirpal, Jesus and basically anyone else.
Would you deny the joy, peace, and ease billions feel knowing Jesus will save them after death? Would you tell them they need to do laborious breathing exercises, dedicated energy movements, and mental mantra gymnastics, all for the sole purpose of peace of mind which Amitaba gives easily? We all go to Sach Khand if we want.
“..Folks really need to pay close attention here – is Kabir referring to a practice forbidden by RS schools – pranayama/breath control..”
Posted by: manjit | May 21, 2025 at 02:29 AM
In,
Path of the Masters, by Julian P. Johnson, Ch. II
14. THE YOGA OF PATANJALI pgs. 103-104
(Reads)
“..We have given those sections, those gems of thought, which coincide more closely with
the teachings of the Masters. This we have done, not
to throw light upon the teachings of the Masters but to
offer corroborative evidence. The science of the
Masters does not contradict or [negative] any of the good
things of the old scriptures. It simply offers additional
light. It accepts what has been proved true in the old
systems and then uses them as stepping stones..”
Here is a RSSB selection which touches on the subject of prana/breath control. As can be seen, RSSB did NOT forbid other forms of yoga as there are similarities within the breath control system Julian P. Johnson offers here as a parallel, NOT as a shun nor forbidding any yoga to your error.
(for further reading on mentioned prana yoga system see links below)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali#Ashtanga_Yoga_(II.29-III.55)
Oh dear Karim.
I guess based on this quote here, which doesn’t even mention pranayama, one would assume that there is no difference between RS Mat and Christianity, Buddhism and Islam etc too, because I’m sure RS books have said similar about them too, despite there being absolutely no similarities or connections between them whatsoever!
Of course Karim’s attempt at defending this crazy inconsistency/lie at the heart of RS Mat is being wilfully ignorant of the facts.
RS books are replete with the explicit and clear claim that pranayama is a lower practice of the negative power Kal, should be avoided at all costs and is not what “Sant Mat” mystics, amongst whom Kabir and Nanak are considered foremost, definitely did not practice it.
The quotes I provide above prove otherwise. The RS gurus and teachings are objectively incorrect here.
I have got rid of almost all my RS related books, but just a 2 second search provides the below, by ambiguous teaching of RS on the subject by Kirpal Singh”
“Pay no attention to the breathing process… let it go on naturally.
“There are two currents working in the body; one of motor-currents or prana or the vital-airs, and the other of surat, or attention, which gives us the sense of feeling. The Saints do not touch the prana currents which govern breathing, circulation of blood, growing of hair and nails. The pranic system of breath-control is the way of yogis and not that of the Saints. The Saints’ way is to concentrate surat or attention at the Single or third eye while mentally repeating the mantra of five charged names which act as an “open sesame” to the higher planes.”
https://medium.com/sant-mat-meditation-and-spirituality/an-introduction-to-meditation-in-sant-mat-introductory-meditation-instructions-e61bb7b70578
Here’s an article from the official website of the religion Karim follows:
“He cannot be approached by yoga, pranayam, mudra* or buddhi (intellectual reasoning). What should I say? How should I describe Him? He is not describable. Only saints know what He is. The path of the saints is not that of pranayam (control of the breath), yoga of the six chakras (meditation at the six lower centres), nor of dhoti, neti, vasti* or mudras. Saints do not waste the time of their disciples by starting them at the lower centres of the body. Besides, what does one get there?”
https://rssb.org/science-of-the-soul-dl.html
There is more after this which also clearly and UNAMBIGUOUSLY contradicts the posts I provide above from Nanak and Kabir.
I rest my case your honour, unless the defence has any actual evidence to support their argument?
Kranvir’s blunt assessment might offend sensibilities, but sometimes raw truth cuts sharper than diplomacy—and in the case of Gurinder Singh Dhillon and the RSSB empire, there are many reasons why people feel betrayed, disillusioned, or downright furious.
Gurinder has overseen the transformation of a spiritual path—one historically associated with humility, simplicity, and direct personal experience of the divine—into what increasingly looks like a corporate-style authoritarian structure. There’s no transparency in leadership, no accountability in conduct, and a growing gap between the guru and the sangat. The culture now discourages questioning, individual thought, or dissent—traits once encouraged in the mystical traditions of Kabir and Nanak.
To many observers, this feels less like a living spiritual path and more like a guru-centered personality cult, where followers are expected to surrender not just their doubts but their critical faculties. That alone should raise red flags.
The most damning issue, however, remains the financial irregularities. Reports from Bloomberg, The Caravan, and Indian legal filings paint a troubling picture. Huge sums—billions of rupees—have allegedly moved through shell companies tied to the Dhillon family. Former associates like Shivinder and Malvinder Singh have accused him of direct involvement. These are not mere rumors; they’re part of ongoing investigations and court proceedings.
And yet, the sangat is kept largely in the dark, expected to trust without question. Isn’t this the exact opposite of spiritual integrity? Shouldn’t a true guru welcome transparency rather than hide behind silence, legalese, or early retirement?
As some critical voices have rightly pointed out, the core Radhasoami meditation method (simran, dhyan, and darshan of the radiant form of the guru) doesn’t trace back to Guru Nanak or Kabir, despite RS claims. There’s no historical evidence that those saints ever taught visualizing a living master’s form or meeting them in inner realms as a requirement for spiritual progress.
In fact, their writings speak more directly about pranayama, breath awareness, and inner silence—practices that RS often dismisses as “lower paths” or “traps of Kal.” How does one reconcile this? You can’t. The contradiction is blatant.
What we’re seeing is not continuity but revisionism—a repackaging of ideas to maintain the central authority of a physical guru figure. And if the foundation is historically flawed and the practice spiritually diluted, what’s left but a hollow ritual sustained by dogma and blind devotion?
So yes—call it what it is. If a spiritual leader builds an empire on inherited legitimacy, contradicts the very saints he claims lineage from, presides over opaque financial dealings, and encourages an unquestioning culture of obedience, then people have every right to shout, criticize, and expose.
Legacy isn’t immune to scrutiny. And if Gurinder is indeed stepping down, whether in shame, strategy, or fatigue, it’s time we stop pretending this isn’t a reckoning. For many of us, the game has ended—and the next chapter is about truth, healing, and reclaiming spirituality from institutions that have abused it.
@ Sunil
This is a”AN” way of ATTRIBUTING value and meaning to facts.
Well versed, but their are many places to stand on from which the same observable facts are visible in another way.
These STAND – and -VIEW-points- related values and meanings are not absolute and NOT an characteristic of the observed facts …they are subjective, related to a person, shared with others standing in the same place.
Where one stands and what one wants to look at is a matter of personal choice ..what is seen and epressed tells more about the SEER the person that sees and how he looks at things than about what is seen.
The facts you write about are for example seen differently from WITHIN the narrative or from OUTSIDE …the the behavior in a football court that ends in a yellow or red card would send the same person outside the narrative of foorball into jail
It is strange Sunil, that all things considered people as so busy with talking about , OTHERS in general, what they say, how they behave, what they do etc .what is discussed here in this blog for example for years and years??? …what this or that expert had to say and whether one liked it or noty etc.
Talking about the OTHER in terms mof this or that guru is just not and exeption.
BUT …BEFORE one enters a shop, there is a person that has something in mind, he enters the shop with PERSONAL intend …at THAT moment he knows nothing about the owner, the other people in the shop etc etc etc. That he enters the shop and gets so much involved with what is going on there that he …TOTALLY …TOTALLY …FOIRGETS …FORGETS ..why he entered that shop and in many cases leaves that shop …EMPTY HANDED …AND …FRUSTRATED…FRUSTRADED ..into the very marrow of his bones.
After having made up ones mind, for ones own good reasons, having asked for initiation, all can practice, with the exclusion of everything else.
That said Sunil ..this is no critique on your point of view ..the question is, does it serve you
And … over the many years I have come to the conclusion that people would be much better served if they would research themselves in the same way as they do others in general and gurus in particular.
The very first questions could be ..
what am i looking for in life
why do I seek help from others
Are others able to fulfill my wishes and resposible .. is it the duty of others
etc etc
Why did I turn my self on spirituality for help.
What was it that I hoped to achieve by this or that practice.
etc etc
If done honestly and profoundly it will help to find the keys back …hajhaha
Every bodies keys are in his own house to be found and not in the lime light of the world where all diligently look for their personal keys because everybody else does and because there is the light of the experts, the guides that are all to willing to “help” you ..but how can they help you???? ….if you have no idea about what you are after, how can they possible help you???
@UM
Thank you for your thoughtful response, but I feel compelled to respond with clarity.
You’re right that perspective matters. But to suggest that what we observe about RSSB and Gurinder Singh Dhillon is purely subjective is, respectfully, a philosophical deflection. Yes, we all stand at different vantage points—but when multiple vantage points begin to confirm the same troubling pattern, we’re no longer dealing with mere perception. We’re dealing with convergence of evidence.
You mention entering the “shop” with pure intention. Many of us did exactly that. We weren’t looking for scandal or betrayal—we were looking for truth, guidance, and spiritual growth. And many of us practiced with sincerity for years, some decades. So when the “shopkeeper” begins operating under a cloak of secrecy, gets entangled in massive financial scandals, and creates an atmosphere where questioning is taboo, are we expected to remain silent just to protect the illusion of sanctity?
You say, “what is seen tells more about the seer.” But what happens when many seers, across locations, backgrounds, and decades of loyalty, start seeing the same things? Are we all collectively projecting? Or are we finally waking up from a spell of cognitive dissonance?
Let’s talk about the “facts”:
Legal filings in Indian courts name Gurinder Singh Dhillon directly in money laundering and financial misconduct involving billions. This isn’t just gossip. These are court-recorded statements, not “views.”
The culture of suppression is not imagined. Try asking a genuine, hard question at a satsang. Try bringing up inconsistencies between the current practices and the teachings of saints like Kabir, Nanak, or even earlier RS masters. You’re likely to be shut down, gaslit, or labeled as “negative.”
The historical revisionism is also not a personal lens—it’s a scholarly concern. The claim that visualization of the guru’s form is part of Nanak or Kabir’s path is unsupported by any of their primary writings. This isn’t a personal gripe—it’s a contradiction that calls into question the very scriptural legitimacy of the RS path as it exists today.
And yes, I agree with you: people forget why they entered the “shop.” But maybe that forgetfulness is encouraged—when the shop becomes a maze, when the guru becomes untouchable, and when seekers are told that doubt is darkness.
You asked: Does this serve me? I’d say it serves truth. It serves integrity. It serves the many people who’ve been silenced, gaslit, or spiritually manipulated into believing that questioning is weakness.
We don’t speak to tear down; we speak to unmask. If a spiritual institution has become indistinguishable from a corporation or a cult of personality, someone has to say it plainly. That’s not ego—it’s responsibility.
So yes, I still stand by what I said. And I hope others do too—not because it’s “my view,” but because it may just be the truth we’ve all been trained to ignore.
There are clear and significant differences between the teachings of Guru Nanak and Kabir and the present-day Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) path.
Here’s a comparative breakdown:
1. Concept of the Guru
Nanak & Kabir:
Guru is a principle of divine wisdom—not limited to a physical person.
Emphasis on the Shabad (Word) or Naam as the true Guru.
Guru Nanak explicitly stated: “Shabad is the Guru, the mind is the disciple.” (SGGS, Ang 943)
Kabir challenged the authority of institutional gurus and priesthood.
RSSB:
The living physical Guru is central and essential for spiritual progress.
The practice involves visualization (dhyan) of the guru’s radiant form in meditation.
Obedience to the living master is often equated with obedience to God.
Key Difference: Nanak and Kabir emphasized inner realization through the Divine Word, not reliance on the physical form of a master.
—
2. Spiritual Practice
Nanak & Kabir:
Emphasis on bhakti (devotion), simran (remembrance of Naam), seva (selfless service), and ethical living.
No rigid method or initiatory ritual; spirituality was open and accessible.
Encouraged awareness, breath, and silence—not necessarily inner darshan of a form.
RSSB:
Initiation is required by a living master to access the inner regions.
The method includes simran (repetition of five charged names), dhyan (visualizing the guru), and bhajan (listening to inner sound).
Meditation is technical and hierarchical—access to inner realms is tied to obedience and grace from the guru.
Key Difference: RSSB formalizes and institutionalizes the inner journey; Nanak and Kabir made it accessible and personal, centered on Naam, not inner imagery.
—
3. View on Other Paths
Nanak & Kabir:
Strongly inclusive and universal.
Criticized religious orthodoxy in both Hinduism and Islam, but honored sincere devotion in all forms.
Emphasized direct connection with the Divine, regardless of background.
RSSB:
Presents its method as the highest path.
Often refers to other spiritual techniques (e.g., pranayama, yoga, mantra, idol worship) as distractions or “lower” paths, sometimes attributed to “Kal” (the negative power).
Key Difference: Kabir and Nanak were bridge-builders; RSSB tends to be exclusivist and hierarchical in its framing of spiritual legitimacy.
—
4. Institutional Structure
Nanak & Kabir:
Had no formal institution, hierarchy, or personal wealth.
Their teachings were anti-institutional and critical of religious power structures.
Focus was on inner liberation, not outer organization.
RSSB:
A large, wealthy institution with massive real estate, strict organizational control, and centralized authority.
Leadership is passed through a line of appointed successors.
The sangat is often expected to follow without question.
Key Difference: Kabir and Nanak denounced power structures in spirituality; RSSB has become a structured spiritual bureaucracy.
—
5. Money and Power
Nanak & Kabir:
Lived simply, shunned material wealth.
Kabir was a weaver; Nanak refused royal offerings.
Emphasized humility and transparency.
RSSB:
Involved (directly or indirectly) in significant financial dealings.
Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family have been named in financial scandals and legal investigations involving billions.
Key Difference: The ethical standards of detachment from wealth and power in Nanak and Kabir’s lives contrast sharply with the financial entanglements seen around RSSB today.
—
Final Reflection:
While RSSB uses the vocabulary of saints like Kabir and Nanak—terms like “Naam,” “Shabd,” and “Guru”—it redefines them in ways that often contradict their original usage. What was once a mystical, direct, and egalitarian path has in many ways become institutionalized, exclusive, and personality-centered.
@ Sunil
Having gone trough what you wrote [ I intend to do it later again] .. you are right in standing your ground, as you described correctly what you see and how you experience it and you are right you will not be alone in it.
I do not like to go into the second part as that would drive me away from what I intended to do in answering you.
What YOU do is drawing attention to the guru and the teaching and what I intend or intended to do is drawing attention to what I did and do with these things.
I have not always done so as I was not aware of it or unable and unwilling to look upon things in that way., until my late comrade opened my eyes ..not that he had the intention to do so but his way of reacting when I did put my frustrations and anger before him in relation to ..let us call it ..like the issues you and others put forward.
He time and again said .. Yes, Yes, Um, you are right, things are as you describe them, it did happen [ some times THEY even went so far as to suggest that the things I spoke had not taken place ..so good ..that sometimes I even started to doubt whether these things had occurred or not …hahaha] …but ..then he would add …the theoretic question ..why does it bother you.
If he would not have been who he was and my respect and feelings not the same as I had, a person acting that way in reaction to my frustration and anger, would certainly run a risk … hahaha …that I would turn my wrath upon him or her …hahaha and I did.
In the beginning I thought he doesn’t understand and I have not given him enough information as otherwise anybody of decent character etc would sympathies with what I said ..so I would repeat it all over in even more detail but got always the same answer .
That last part started to linger in my mind over time ..WHY does it bother you and slowly and slowly I started to reflect on myself and had the focus shift from OTHERS to myself
So Yes the company of others does matter … but they are not magicians, it is NOT in THEIR hands…they[ Both the late MCS and my Comrade] had no intention to change
me for the better, not at all, not even for a moment but their proper being mattered.
And in that same vein I wrote you, just showing how I handled the same things you are talking about
@ Sunil
What I write is born from years of reflection on the changes in the world ever since let us say 1945,1968 and later 1990.
Everything human, his culture, is changing like the moulting of birds, losing their feathers.
Whatever has served humanity social and cultural for hundreds and thousands of years, in its regional and national settings is quickly becoming obsolete ….as a metaphor i would point your attention to the movie “the last emperor” …as all these things people attributed value and meaning to are no longer useful in this globalized world and an presence of social media and the availability of data.
With the death of the late MCS, an door has been closed and ..in a certain way … he has taken with him his wealth. THAT door will not be opened again.
Spirituality as it has come to us as an tradition, is no longer alive ..and I do mean ALL spirituality and ALL religion. Of course there will be some drama …When a fire is dying, just before if final dies will flicker for a moment, intensify its light/
A new tradition will be created and none of us will have any idea how it will look like, and how long it will take to emerge
Maybe this helps to understand from where my answers come
Hey, what’s going on here, this is threatening to break out into a serious and informative discussion about RS 😄
Great posts by Sunil, as worthy as any sent to Brian for publishing as the main blog article imo.
And whilst I disagree in many ways with Um’s replies, as we have discussed many times over the years, I can at least appreciate the sentiment which contains it’s own truth.
Hahaha Manjit
You might have noticed sometimes that Jamy Oliver got into troubles when he, hosted in an Italian family, in cooking for them served TRADITIONAL dishes with an oliver twist.
Hahaha .. Italians are very, maybe even obsessive protectionists of Nonna’s recipes
I should have l;earned that lesson by now and refrain from bring up here messages that are not in agreement with the general approach here , pro and/or contra.
Most of the writers here are only interested in teachers, their teachings or shortly put ..OTHERS and maybe it is better not to draw their attention away from what is their choice….in the days bygone and still frequenting the community there was often talk about which guru or what path was perfect, true etc ..they all “knew” what was right and wrong … I never joined these discussions as I simple do not know these answers and realizing that I just went by my personal preferences and intuition
To end:
In order to make myself a cup of coffee and enjoy it, I do not need whether the brand I use is the very best etc etc . I know How to make the coffee and drink it and now and then have the feeling it is nectar.
We have a saying, that translates like .. what you don’t know won’t hurt you …the ostrich putting his head under the sand … hahahha .. not realy
“He cannot be approached by yoga, pranayam, mudra* or buddhi (intellectual reasoning). What should I say? How should I describe Him? He is not describable. Only saints know what He is. The path of the saints is not that of pranayam (control of the breath), yoga of the six chakras (meditation at the six lower centres), nor of dhoti, neti, vasti* or mudras. Saints do not waste the time of their disciples by starting them at the lower centres of the body. Besides, what does one get there?”
Posted by: manjit | May 22, 2025 at 01:20 AM
The quote you give here is being presented OUT OF CONTEXT. IF you read the entire context you would have got that Jagar Singh expressed that once upon a time pranayama could lead to Samadhi but in modern time it would almost be impossible using that yoga.
And the quote I administered earlier was completely on the subject of Patanjali’s pranic method of yoga about 370 bce. Long time ago.
(More on subsections I-VIII)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtanga_(eight_limbs_of_yoga)
UM,
There is a difference in: Ojectivety
Also in Subjectivety.
@S*
>>
There is a difference in: Ojectivety
Also in Subjectivety.
<< Sounds like: There is a difference in: black ..big etc Also in white.. small ... IIf you want me to understand what you mean you have to express yourself a little more.and a litle less abstract
Hi Karim.
You know that I mentioned in 2 odd decades of raising this issue online, that I’ve yet to hear a SINGLE remotely coherent defense of this RS dogma which maintained the RS doctrine’s integrity? Well, you should know that I have, however, heard the defense you make here 😘
It’s funny you mention context, because context is precisely the thing which is completely absent from Radhasoami’s interpretation and commentary on the practice of past mystics like Kabir and Nanak.
A more thorough grounding in the CONTEXT of spiritual practices back then (and beyond) would make it beyond obvious they had to have been practicing the tantric yogic methods, almost certainly including pranayama as a FUNDAMENTAL aspect, for contacting inner sound or “shabd”, because we can trace the practice & evolution of “shabd yoga” back to Gorakhnath and even beyond to the Kashmiri & Tibetan tantric schools where pranayama was also used. Numerous tantric texts like gheranda samhita, hathayogapradipika (and many more little known but critically important texts, like Amrtasiddhi which is possibly the root-text of all Indian Hatha yogic texts, and touches on inner sound, currently in the process of being translated, fascinatingly) describe what is CLEARLY a fuller, more comprehensive meditation technology for contacting inner sound or nada which included a heavy emphasis on breath control. Indeed, it is within some of those very same books that a basic description of the RS meditation is also described as suitable for “laymen”. You know, literally part timers 😉
But, I fear the above is a level of contextuality too far for the average Radhasoami follower, so let’s back it up and deal with the transparently obvious first.
The information I provided above should, I hope, be sufficient for any honest & sincere reader to understand and acknowledge the glaring inconsistency/mistruth/false & elitist dogma at the heart of RS doctrine in regards this issue. The contradiction is, imo, an obvious & glaring one. That it appears I need to expand on it for some defenders of the faith doesn’t bode well – if the RS guru’s own unambiguous & blunt words can be distorted and mis-represented so wildly, rational discourse becomes futile and farcical from the get go. Furthermore, I neither have the RS/SB books in my library (oh for the early days of the yahoo RSS forum……I must have posted……manually typed out, that is….. the entire RS corpus of writings on that forum 6 times over, basically speaking just to myself! What a loser, I agree!) nor the inclination to trawl through RS books to locate MORE quotes stating the BLARINGLY OBVIOUS BOG STANDARD BASIC RS DOCTRINE THAT EVERYONE HERE SHOULD KNOW OFF BY HEART !!!!!!!
So I’ll just summarise and assume I don’t need to hold everybody’s hand whilst they go pee, and let folks just dig further and/or interpret according to their own CAPACITY and DESIRE to ascertain something approaching “truth” as opposed to wallowing in elitist religious fantasies.
Karim’s argument “in modern time it would almost be impossible using that yoga.” is one I have heard before. This is plainly a misrepresentation of what the RS gurus actually taught quite unambiguously & explicitly.
Let’s be CRYSTAL clear what the RS gurus and doctrine states. It states that we are currently in the “KAL YUG” which translates as “dark age”. This lasts for hundreds of thousands of years and we have been in this “Kal yug” for several thousands of years at least. Nanak and Kabir who lived some 550 years ago also lived well within the timeframe of this alleged “Kal yug” in Indian cosmology.
RS gurus and doctrines CLEARLY state that in PREVIOUS YUGAS – MANY thousands of years PRIOR to Nanak or Kabir’s birth – some hypothetical mystics who are never named were able to reach “Sach Khand” or the true spiritual path via a variety of practices which included pranayama. Iirc – and this may be a false memory but I strongly suspect not – I believe the argument that people lived for so long in those yugas, several hundred if not thousands of years old, is one of the reasons they could use those “slower” (oh, the irony!) technologies like pranayama.
However, in the KAL YUGA, breath control was a practice of lower paths, or “Kal” himself, and definitely was NOT practiced by “Sant Mat” mystics amongst whom Kabir and Nanak are most highly placed.
To me, the above is inarguably standard RS dogma. I don’t quite know how to engage with the view that it isn’t, especially in light of the very clear, very unambiguous and very explicit quotes from Kirpal and Jagat Singh I provided above, 2 gurus from the 2 largest RS lineages ! 🤔
I guess placing those very same lines closer together may help clarify the inconsistency?:
Kirpal: “The Saints do not touch the prana currents which govern breathing, circulation of blood, growing of hair and nails. The pranic system of breath-control is the way of yogis and not that of the Saints.”
Jagat: “He cannot be approached by yoga, pranayam”
Jagat: “The path of the saints is not that of pranayam (control of the breath), yoga of the six chakras (meditation at the six lower centres)”
Saint Kabir: “”The snake-like coil is now pierced through & through and I have
dauntlessly met my Lord, the King…
…..Merged in the Full-pervading Lord when I locked (khumbak) the breath
within, *then* (my emphasis, manjit) the celestial strain
spontaneously began to resound.”
Kabir, page 972 SGGS
“If her mind pearl, like an ornament, be weaved into the thread of
breath……. then the Beloved enjoys his sweetheart”
Guru Nanak, page 359 SGGS
“The right & left nostrils are the guards of this body lyre
(harp…manjit), and this lyre synchronises a wonderful melody”
Guru Nanak, page 907 SGGS
“Put thou thy life-breath in the right channel and establish good
relation with thy Lord”
Guru Nanak, page 991 SGGS
“Says Nanak,….then with every breath of his, he quaffs nectar”
Guru Nanak, page 992 SGGS
“He then mounts his breath to the 16 petalled sky and there flutters
his wings in glee”
Kabir, page 970 SGGS
“I have obtained the 10th gate as a distilling fire and the channels
of the Ida and Pingala (the left & right breath channnels according
to tantra….manjit) are the funnels to suck in and spit out, and
mind as a golden vat.
In that vat, the extremely pure stream of Name Nectar trickles.
LIKE THIS I have distilled the essence of essences.
An incomparable thing has happened, MY BREATH I HAVE MADE THE WINE-CUP.”
Kabir, page 92 SGGS
“By turning my breath inwards, I have pierced the six body chakras
and my mind (surat) got enamoured of the Lord.”
Kabir, page 333 SGGS
“O brute of brawling and uncultured intellect, REVERSING THY BREATH
from the world, turn it thou towards thy God.
Intoxicate thou thy mind with the ambrosial stream that trickles
from the furnace of the 10th gate”
Kabir, page 1123 SGGS
I don’t say anyone should believe a word I say, I just provide info and references for my sources and let folks make their own mind up if they have a genuine interest in the subject. Everyone has to do the work themselves for any of this to click & mean anything deeply. I can’t do anything for you if you can’t add 1 plus 1 and not get 42, just because some dude in a turban told you it’s 42.
In regards Karim’s suggestion the vague and ambiguous quote he provided about Patanjali from Julian Johnson somehow supporting the notion RS incorporates pranayama: “the quote I administered earlier was completely on the subject of Patanjali’s pranic method of yoga about 370 bce.” – well, sorry, the original quote clearly doesn’t reference pranayama or on any specific level at all. Like I tried to hint at earlier, this is one of those vague, wishy washy BS RS claims very much like “Christianity and Buddhism are completely compatible with the RS belief in the Satguru”. It means absolutely nothing, a vague generality that doesn’t hold up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny. And if that wasn’t completely obvious before, re-read the DETAIL in my post 3 more times and it should become clearer to you, if there’s any sentience left at all in you😋
ADDENDUM: It seems there is a tangential defense of the RS meditation method of meditating on / visualising / doing dhyan of the “radiant form” of one’s physical master on the RSS forum:
https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/216555
Great! Imo these are some pretty ambiguous quotes, and the lack of source/s probably more telling than the quotes themselves – presumably some if not all came direct from RS related literature. There is also the obvious issue of interpretation – what does “guru”, “lotus-feet” etc actually mean to the authors – the huge assumption it reflects the beliefs of modern day RS satsangis is a cognitive illusion imo. The greater the familiarity with the CONTEXT of these gurus, the greater the clarity on the actual practices of that time, and not through the distorting prism of RS dogma.
BUT – and this is a HUGE but – none of the above even matters!
The question here isn’t about encountering “radiant inner forms” – ANYONE who has either experienced or studies psychedelic experiences, NDEs, OBEs and visionary/mystical experiences in general will be very well familiar with the experience of encountering breathtakingly dazzling “radiant inner form” type entities.
That is not even being debated here.
What is being asked is where are the suggestions that this was part of a formal, systematic meditation technique? Where? Where is the evidence for this being a primary or even chief meditation technology back then, because I have studied this intensely and never come across such evidence? On the contrary, we have an ABUNDANCE of evidence that breath control and shabd were intimately connected in historic tantric practices, including in the time of Kabir and Nanak. That’s CONTEXT. CONTENT is their own words saying this is indeed what they practiced! 🥰
Where’s the coherent counter argument that they practiced simple simran and dhyan as taught by RS, not based on an RS source?
On the contrary, in the pranayama quotes I provide above, Kabir and Nanak very clearly and very unambiguously describe a CAUSAL connection between their breath control practice (which simply cannot be misinterpreted as poetic licence, they use very specific tantric yogic terminology) and contacting the “Lord” and Shabd.
Contacting a “radiant form” is an EXPERIENCE, and one had by many from many and no traditions and through a variety of PRACTICES. Breath control is a PRACTICE.
Clarity of thought is recommended.
@ Manjit
I have not read your contribution with the full attention it deserves.
That said, the thought that arose in my mind was that WE ..we humans, …these days, in the conditions we live in and without the close [daily] guidance of an experienced guide that knows all the ins and outs of breath control are not able to practice without running the risk of damage to our body and mind.
I have the feeling that doing Simran, with the right mental attitude, and paying no attention to breathing, will, subconsciously also re-form or adjust the breathing
And ..always interested in the roots of something, ….if that translation is available let us know.
“In regards Karim’s suggestion the vague and ambiguous quote he provided about Patanjali from Julian Johnson somehow supporting the notion RS incorporates pranayama..”
Posted by: manjit | May 23, 2025 at 04:23 AM
WHERE DID I SAY INCORPORATES?
My quote from earlier if you need the source. The Path of the Masters, by Julian P. Johnson was uploaded by some study website and can be downloaded to view the FULL – Ch II, sec. 14; subsections I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, & VIII.
(download link below)
http://www.bahaistudies.net/asma/pathofthemasters.pdf
In that Chapter on Patanjali’s method is given is COMPLETE acknowledgement of his pranayam yoga system. I only shared the final paragraphs because you stated that RSSB ‘forbid’ other yoga systems. But even in Jagat Singh’s – Science of the Soul, he doesn’t condemn prana either. He says similarly like Dr. Julian P. Johnson, that the old prana systems are not BAD per say, just harder to achieve results in a modern age.
AGAIN, you may already have read the material. Just sometimes people read or skim over the points in specific chapters. Then spout their skimmage knowledge online all over the place. Or perhaps they know the material, but chose to pound false info abroad purposefully? Like Kirpal did. As Kirpal NEVER EVER held Sawan Singh’s Ghaddi, as you bring him up to support your flawed claims. Jagat Singh the Perfect Disciple was Sawan’s ONLY successor -bro.
Btw, don’t do those drugs -bro. Gateway drugs always can lead to harsher drugs like; Heroin or Crack Cocaine.
Good luck to you Karim, I can’t do anything for you!
Cheers Brother.
Hi Um, that’s a fair view and there may be some truth to the potential dangers of pranayama.
I only have 2 responses to this:
1) I am plainly not advocating, recommending or denying any methodology. I am simply making objective observations of what Kabir and Nanak actually practiced, and how that contradicts the RS dogma.
Reality plainly contradicts both what Kirpal & Jagat have written here.
What folks do with that FACT is up to them. I think the implications are HUGE, but each to their own.
Like I say, I’m not here to hold folk’s hands whilst they go pee 😋
2) I understand your viewpoint. It fits in nicely with the milquetoast, new agey, populist model of spirituality for the masses that modern RS presents us.
But there is another viewpoint; of the serious seeker, the serious psychonaut, the serious mystic for whom such fears are laughable 😁
The truth is meditation is a technology to create changes in the body mind organism. Shabd immersion, inner light, kundalini etc are the results of significant alterations in one’s organism.
If the dangers of pranayama scare you, if taking HUGE doses psychedelics like psilocybe mushrooms, Ayahuasca, DMT or LSD frighten you, then you’re playing a different game. You’re playing amateur league football with your hungover, drunken, 50 year old mates on a Sunday morning, with a cigarette, packet of crisps and a pint of lager at half time!
Good luck to them, we all need a hobby!
🫠
Sorry to multiple post here, but I forgot to add Um…. I have to be honest I don’t keep as close to developments in the Eastern metaphysical traditions as I used to so I don’t have at hand references to learning more about the very important texts currently being translated.
I do know that some fundamentally foundational hatha and Kashmiri tantric texts are being translated, and a few decades from now our whole view of the practice in may radically change! Very exciting times.
In regards the Amrtasiddhi text, if you or anyone is interested, I strongly recommend watching some of the YouTube videos by James Mallinson. He is absolutely brilliant. Here’s a random video, but there’s dozens. There would have been a time I would have been utterly ecstatic with finding these:
https://youtu.be/aolMGxuJLp0?si=jQLbg1OmO0OVLLZM
@ Manjit
Over the [many] years I have come to the conclusion that works of these great asian, mystics, sages etc are to be compared with the highest levels of scientists.
It also dawn upon me that it is, let us say, at least naive in my part to think that I could and should understand the meaning of their words, not being at the same level of education, training etc as these giants of the mind.
Against this background the interest of the west for Eastern spirituality that started out with the hippy movement in the seventies, is becoming more and more to be seen as kind of child’s play in which children mimic their parents …in this case playing mystic.
It has humbled me but I am not leaving that behind without having come to understand many a thing about the psychology of man for which I am very grateful and thankful to all those with whom I talked the walk …Whether it was his intention or not I do not know and it doesn’t matter even … but …the association with the late MCS has proved to be a treasure trove in that respect that I have not been able to empty to this very day.
Whether he was a mystic, I cannot answer, but he was certainly a “knower of man”. In his simple words he made very complicate psychological issues visible that are obscured by academic jargon or slang
I should be forgiven that my attention most of the time is drawn away from what is pointed at in the direction of what I love to call ..”collateral information”. It has many times been an source of anoyance here in this blog too,
To my defense and in doing right to the writers, I do read what is posted, but I do also process it in a different way than might commonly expected. The realizing thereof has made me several times to stop all together …and I will do so too for good sooner or later
@ Manjit
Hahaha…you are right …it is even worse than you write ….I do not even qualify myself as an “amateur player” …hahahaha
BUT…..
I am very curious….what was before, and what was before before en so on. How came man to develop his tools …tools to manipulate nature ..tools, to manipulate society and culture …and last but not least …tools to manipulate the body in order to produce transformations of consciousness.
So …Biologist know that if you move a plant from one climatologic place to another, it cannot develop itself as it did in its place of origin
Hahaha the honorable Dalai Lama understood that and said that Tibetan Buddhism has to die outside tibet as it had its roots, nourishment there.
That is why in the end the influx of asian wisdom has come to an halt.
In oder to practice zen you have to be born In Japan
In order to be a satsangi, you have to be born in India
These are all REGIONAL tools not GLOBAL ..let alone ..UNIVERSAL
Do not hang me …hahaha
Gurinder singh dhillon in a satsang finally tells the truth before retiring in shame and embarrassment… and says
“I’M NO GOD. WHAT YOU NEED TO SEARCH FOR IS TRUTH..”
To all the 10millon satasangis out there , let that sink in…..
Gurinder and the entire rssb cult has been a LIE.
I thought Gill was in charge of RSSB now. Is Gurinder even alive?
So confused… this all seems like really old news.
A letter I found on the web.
After 37 years, I am no longer associated with RSSB. Here is what finally pushed me out of RSSB: I had come to Dera from Thailand where I helped work a parvo outbreak among abandoned dogs & puppies. GSD’s (no baba, no ji!) followers almost shunned me, and told me that GSD forbids spay and neuter of dogs and cats. Sounded like ignorant bullshit to me. So in evening meeting, I stood up and asked him. He does forbid spay/neuter! I asked him if he thought the Delhi train station needed another 100 sick, abused, miserable dogs this year. He blew me off like a nasty politician. Gurinder Singh Dhillon wouldn’t know actual compassion if it bit him on the ankle. I am now my own guru, and spay/neuter, true compassion for voiceless animals is now my raison d’etre. Thirty-seven years of RSSB down the drain. Many “friends,” lost, but cutting ties with this disgusting man and his benighted followers was the right thing to do. I do meditate…by itself, it’s medically and emotionally a good thing.