“Atheist Experience” guys demolish arguments of a supernatural believer

“It is like they are speaking a foreign language.”
That’s exactly what it is like when one individual’s view on life is at one level, and the other’s is at another level.
They don’t have the ability to speak to each other because they are convinced the other is wrong.

Then there is this:
“Thomas Aquinas makes an important distinction about proving God’s existence through reason: we can know naturally that God exists, that there is an infinite and perfect Being who created the universe, but we cannot know who God is by reason alone. The universe may bear the footprint of its Creator, but God is not a being or object within the universe, but BEING itself — he IS the One who IS. Nonetheless, knowing that God exists does help the mind a great deal, recognizing its natural dependence on the Creator.”
Quoting the Denver Catholic.
In other words when we experience the great perfection, the ground of all being, and so forth, we are experiencing God without. But if we start thinking about our experience of being, or creating mythology around it, the Beingness itself disappears into the background of our perception.

“It feels good to believe that death isn’t the end of us, but the beginning of an afterlife”.
Nobody can prove (or disprove) that one. Subscribing to such logic (and a belief in God) could be something as simple as working on a hypothesis and building it from the ground up into a strong support structure for when push comes to shove. You can’t lean on to a concept you have consciously rubbished and denigrated while you were apparently “winning” in the game of life. IMHO people don’t really give such existential issues much thought when they choose these comforting thoughts. They could simply be ideations that make living “easy” and give hope for the future.
I am a complete newbie to the spiritual world (and am likely to stay unevolved for a pretty long while). Don’t think I believe in the concept of God the way a devotee sees Him. But I do subscribe to the belief in a Karmic afterlife and the concept of accumulated, accumulating and yet to be accumulated Karma as Sankara Vedanta says. I also believe that practising simple living and trying to stick to the “six treasures” and the “four-fold discipline” paves the way for a “fulfilled” life and an evolved after-life . But that’s the great think about Vedanta philosophy. You could choose Ramanuja (Bhakti Marga)or Sankara Vedanta (Gyana Marga) and come away with pointers to leading a harmonious existence with your inner self. Although Sankara Vedanta would help one deal with hardships like a stoic, something that a conventional belief in God would’nt.
Choosing a certain stance to religion has more to do with the mental inclinations of the individual concerned. Some are crying to be led, some find gratification in denigrating traditionalist concepts while the rest stay ambivalent. Non-theism, in my opinion is the better way, but that’s probably because I belong to the last category while in the decision making mode.

“Science was mentioned in the Atheist Experience video as being our best way of determining what is true. For sure.”
Again, that is only one truth, or, only a partial truth. There are many things science can not prove or disprove. In fact, the history of science itself proves that it cannot determine what is true. What it believes is true is quickly usurped by whats it finds to be true next. There are many things that science simply is ill equipped to prove and disprove. And rather than admit to that, people invested in the scientific perspective of the universe end up dogmatically denying the truth, or coming up with an explanation that is convenient for their level of perceiving.

Joe, you mention “levels” in a way that seems to imply that there are magical men, mystics maybe, who know of things others don’t know about. I don’t buy it. Manjit who comments here is the greatest mystic of all time as well as the most rigorous theologian, and he shows no signs of having obtained any of the promised/guaranteed fruits of these enlightening esoteric experiences that he and so many claim to have had.
For thousands of years, man has been writing down cool sounding poetry and drawing metaphysical maps, and when asked for evidence, they simply state the name of someone who came before them or tell us that absolute truth is real, but it’s only real to some special souls who, in the modern era, sign up for an email list or attend certain meetings.
As limited as the scientific method may be, at least it consists of more than “this guy said so” which is the beginning and end of religion and mysticism.

Joe, you seem uninformed about the scientific method. Science is always seeking to know the unknown, so scientific facts are continually changing and expanding. When was the last time a religion admitted that it got something wrong, and adjusted its dogma? Like, never. Or hardly ever.
By contrast, Einstein expanded our knowledge of Newton’s laws of motion. After Darwin came up with the theory of evolution, scientists have taken that knowledge to new levels with an understanding of genetics and other factors.
So science can indeed determine what is true. And then science produces increased knowledge of truth. I’m curious, what do you consider to be superior to science when it comes to revealing truth? This was a question asked by the atheist guys. The deist couldn’t come up with an answer. I bet you can’t either.
And if you hazard a guess, and share it in a comment, you’ll be using a computer and the Internet that was developed by… take a guess… science!

My Spirituality as an Atheist (5:04)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E
So very beautiful…

As limited as the scientific method may be, at least it consists of more than “this guy said so” which is the beginning and end of religion and mysticism.
But Jesse that is the point. It does consist of more than “this guy said so” but the whole thing doesn’t end there. Lots of people have broader, more inclusive, non-dual, empty, formless experiences of all kinds that are neither dependent on rational thinking or on heresay.

Brian, there is nothing superior or inferior. You see that is the point. When you are fixed at a particular way of perceiving everything is either inferior or superior or just plain wrong. There are greater truths that science can not explain – that is the point. That doesn’t mean science is inferior. It means science is not enough. Just like religion was not enough before that.
The play of consciousness is not limited to what science can explain. It never was and never will be. Just like it was never limited to what religion can explain.
Scientific method has nothing to do with it because there are realities beyond what scientific method can apply itself to.
Surely you see that?

Joe, what are these realities? That’s the first question. What evidence do you have that they exist? That’s the second question.
We all have experiences that are unknown to science, at least the current state of science. Dreams. Felt emotions. A sense of awe. Etc. Etc.
But all of these subjective realities are experienced by a physical brain and a physical body. So they also are physical. Or are you saying that there is a supernatural realm that somehow you’re able to experience with your physical brain and body?
Talk is cheap. Truth is expensive. You can’t expect me or anyone else to believe in what you do without your going beyond talk. That’s what religions do — they are full of words without substance.
I’m not saying this is what your words also are. I’m just saying that everyone has had profound ineffable experiences. I sure have. In fact, I still have them via my atheist brain. But this doesn’t mean that I’ve discovered something profound about the universe. I’ve just had a profound personal experience.

@ Jen : Did you find Huang Po ( Transmission Of Mind ) a difficult read ? I can recommend some audio books.
I’m currently reading The Vegetarian by Korean author Han Kang. I find some accidental, yet striking parallels.

“It does consist of more than “this guy said so” but the whole thing doesn’t end there. Lots of people have broader, more inclusive, non-dual, empty, formless experiences of all kinds that are neither dependent on rational thinking or on heresay.”
So you know it’s more than what people say, because people said it. Lovely clarification.
As I said about the smartest man alive who posts here, the people claiming that these things exist also almost unanimously discuss the requisite moral and ethical upgrades that coincide with mystic experience, which we can see simply are not manifest. People are not transformed by seeing cool lights in their head and thinking for a few minutes that they’ve become the whole universe.
I’m using their criteria, and it has yet to convince me. Have you become one with the universe, and if so, what is it like? If not, why are you talking about it?

The notion that the spiritual believer has is this:
“I KNOW there is something beyond the physical.”
He then tries to prove it by some anecdote or story.
example: “My friend, who meditates a lot, told everyone 3 days before he died of the exact time of his death – and he died exactly at that time, and the master came at his death to take him”
Sounds convincing, until you start to investigate it in detail. Then you find all kinds of flaws in it, like
“Well he didn’t exactly give the exact time, just said he would die in a few days”
Take the example of Swami Ji as the story is given in Sar Bachan (prose). Swami Ji tells everyone that he is taking his soul into the lap of sat purush for the final time.
He says he has done the process many times. He leaves instructions on who is to carry on the “work” after he is gone (and incidently does not even mention the name of Jaimal even once).
Then he gets ready to leave his body and after a while, returns to his body.
Obviously the disciples ask him, “WHF? What happened? How come you’re back?”
(I am paraphrasing just slightly…)
To which he responded with, “Now the mauj has changed”
If Jesse, or some of the people on this blog were present they might have asked,
“Mauj, what fucking mauj? You didn’t mention any mauj when you said you were leaving!”
But they were devout disciples and devout disciples never doubt, or if they do, never express it.
So even Swami’s own exact prediction went wrong.
How come?
Did he not KNOW that the mauj was going to change?
If he didn’t, then he is not “all knowing”
If he did know, then why go through the whole thing of pretending, since he knows the truth.
So ONE of those are true:
(1) He didn’t know that Sat purush would change the time and when he arrives at the big door of Sach Khand, instead of welcoming him with open arms, He just has a sevadar standing there (I am assuming he is good at deligating non significant tasks like this) who tells swami “Sorry for the inconvenience, pal, but the time has changed. Come back tomorrow at 6pm. Not my fault, it was Sat purush, his Mauj changed.”
or
(2) Swami Ji, being all knowing, KNEW it was a setup, but then he still played along. So he is then a LIAR and just pretending to go, knowing full well the door is closed.
The believer just believes and does not face the consequences of his beliefs.
If the main guru of sant mat got it wrong, how can his disciples, two decades later, know the exact time of their death and know for sure that the “mauj” will not change.
More likely, it’s all wishful thinking

Since you’ve never experienced anything outside of consciousness, you cannot prove there is anything outside consciousness… which simply shows this is a philosophical question and not a scientific question and the whole “proof” red herring is meaningless.
.

Since no one has ever, or can ever, experience anything outside of consciousness it stands to reason there is nothing outside of consciousness. It logically and philosophically has to be the first, last and only reality and possibility. There is no other possibility.
If you say no-consciousness is a possibility you’ve defied logic, reason and experience.
As soon as someone successfully gets out of consciousness and reports back about the zero consciousness world they non-experienced, we can take their report seriously.
.

@287daysleft
Science deals with the objective world only. What you experience in your mind cannot be proven objectively to anyone. It is your personal experience.
One person might say he gets a visit from Jesus every day.
Another says that his guru comes everyday to him in his meditation.
Those experiences might seem valid to the person who has them, but what do they mean?
Perhaps they are hallucinations. Abraham was told to kill his son Isaac.
How does he know it was God? Maybe he is just going insane and hearing voices.
In the subjective world you can have any experience and you can create any meaning from it.
It doesn’t make it true.
Science deals with what is verifiable and true. That is why nothing in science is absolute.
It is just the best theory we have with the information and data we have.
Take hurricane Florence as an example. When will it hit? The answer changes as the data changes. It doesn’t mean the previous answer was wrong – that was the best answer at the time.
religion is different. It claims absolute knowledge.
And religious people constantly mistake a strong belief for “knowing”

You can speculate all you want that there could be something outside of awareness. But the cold hard fact is no one has ever experienced such a thing, nor can ever.
Talk about faulty thinking and people lost in imagination!
Thinking that after the body dies we will go into something that has never been experienced, can never be experienced, and does not even exist and some call that clarity.
If believing non-existence can “happen” is called clarity, I don’t even know how someone could be muddled. Believing white is black, up is down, and here is there, is more sensible.
.

Osho,
Are we going to limit the discussion to reality or are we going to also consider the impossible and ridiculous? Because if we limit the discussion to reality there is no possibility except awareness.
If we open the discussion to imagination and ridiculousness we can say, well pigs could fly, the 2nd law of thermodynamics could be false, non-awareness could happen, anything is possible.
.

Osho,
Perhaps you haven’t been keeping up with the latest in science. According to quantum theory, when you close your eyes the visible world does actually literally disappear (and goes back to potential) and re-manifests again when you open them.
Sounds a lot like the idea that subjectivity is primal which is what mystics have been saying all along.
.

Osho,
According to Occam’s Razor you go with the simplest explanation that fits all of the known facts.
Known fact: We exist.
Simple explanation: Existence always is.
Convoluted explanation: Material objects came first, existence evolved out of material objects by some process no one knows and which stopped and was never again observed happening. We can’t explain how we got out of nonexistence but consider it likely we will go into it at death.
.

Existence or yours and my personal existence.
They’re not the same thing yet you continually conflate the two, 287. It’s a weird argument you make and you’ve never answered why you think every individual must have always existed.

Hey boys and girls – don’t worry be happy!!!! We will all find out what lies beyond here one day – let’s not rattle our little brain cells guessing!
Mush love from a very hot country and serving you all 😀

287daysleft, you are ignorant of quantum theory. The world doesn’t go out of existence when you close your eyes. That’s crazy nonsense. Also, I’m glad that you’ve become an atheist, since you said you believe that existence has always existed. I agree. That’s why there’s no need to believe in a God, since there was no need for a God to bring the cosmos into existence.

Blog Boss Brian wrote: “…existence has always existed. I agree. That’s why there’s no need to believe in a God, since there was no need for a God to bring the cosmos into existence.”
–Well then, would it be unreasonable to suggest that existence is God?
I guess if a person’s concept of God is this thing other than manifestation that makes manifestation happen according to her whims and desires and fucks up beings that don’t kiss her ass and follow her directions, you might have a point.

I personally enjoy thinking about these things, Arjuna. It’s not a bad experience to think about life and meaning, or the origins of existence.
On a side note and in reply to your other statement, how are you serving me or anyone else?

@ Jesse – we serve you all 😀.
Yes thinking is good – if it benefits others and not our ego.

Blogger Brian,
Are you sure you understand current quantum mechanics?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3107996/Our-entire-lives-ILLUSION-New-test-backs-theory-reality-doesn-t-exist-look-it.html
.

Blogger Brian,
Sorry you think eminent physicists John Wheeler and Andrei Linde are crazy kooks.
“Stanford University physicist Andrei Linde believes this quantum paradox gets to the heart of Wheeler’s idea about the nature of the universe: The principles of quantum mechanics dictate severe limits on the certainty of our knowledge. ”
“The universe and the observer exist as a pair,” Linde says. “You can say that the universe is there only when there is an observer who can say, Yes, I see the universe there. ” —-from:
http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse
.
.

Blogger Brian,
Because I have logically concluded that existence “always is,” does not mean I am an atheist. In fact the natural state of existence, without filters, is unconditional love… which is the pretty standard universal definition of God everywhere except in usa probably.
.

How do you jump from “an observer” to “individual closes eyes and universe disappears”

Jesse,
Read again, neither I nor Andrei Linde said the universe disappears when you close your eyes.
What I said was: “when you close your eyes the visible world does actually literally disappear (and goes back to potential) and re-manifests again when you open them.”
This is backed up by the quantum mechanics of John Wheeler, Andrei Linde and other physicists who say:
“…the universe is there only when there is an observer who can say, Yes, I see the universe there. ”
If you understand quantum mechanics, you understand they mean this literally… that’s what the experiments have shown. Read some articles on it if you are interested.
.

“neither I nor Andrei Linde said the universe disappears when you close your eyes.”
‘What I said was: “when you close your eyes the visible world does actually literally disappear”
You’re really smart.

I’m not saying bread disappears when I eat it. What I’m saying is that processed wheat that is made into dough and cooked into loafs disappears when I eat it.
Let me make this important clarification for everyone before the smartest man on earth, Manjit, scolds me.

Jesse said: “So you know it’s more than what people say, because people said it. Lovely clarification.”
No Jesse, I know from personal experience.

Anything “quantum” is almost certain to get misrepresented. I’m sure some here are smart enough to delve deep into the meanings and implications of the theories(Manjit), but most of us are just average folks. I’m certainly not smart enough to understand these sciences, and even if I wanted to get the gist of them, the simplifications I would make of the terms would diminish their meanings and further misrepresent the findings outside of my own small self-explanations and analogies.
But one thing that is for sure is that there are a lot of funny and smart people online who have over the years written articles and made videos mocking the bad connections some try to make between quantum physics etc and spirituality. These videos do not go way when I close my eyes, and I certainly appreciate that at least this much continuity exists in the universe.

Ok Joe, so you’re in heaven chilling with Laxmi and Sawan Singh. Cool.
But then how did you manage to get so far but receive none of the guaranteed corresponding worldly traits?
Or maybe you have? Tell us when will you die? What am I thinking right now? Can you heal cancer with just a glance?

Jesse,
What the fuck are you talking about?
Based on your comments, you seem to have a delusional understanding of mysticism and spirituality in general.
I guess you are not really interested in the subject, but are a troll?

Most traditions say that mystic experiences confer various powers or siddhis. This is true of all mainstream hinduism and buddhism, and in some christian and islamic mystic traditions as well.
You seem to have an anger problem, which is weird for someone with so much self control that he can leave his body and meet god.

287daysleft, you need to do more reading about quantum physics. It is nonsense to believe that the moon, or anything else, ceases to exist when no one is looking at it. This Discover article has a good discussion of Wheeler and his views about observer-created reality.
http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun/featuniverse
Excerpt:
———————
Wheeler conjectures we are part of a universe that is a work in progress; we are tiny patches of the universe looking at itself — and building itself. It’s not only the future that is still undetermined but the past as well. And by peering back into time, even all the way back to the Big Bang, our present observations select one out of many possible quantum histories for the universe.
Does this mean humans are necessary to the existence of the universe? While conscious observers certainly partake in the creation of the participatory universe envisioned by Wheeler, they are not the only, or even primary, way by which quantum potentials become real. Ordinary matter and radiation play the dominant roles.
Wheeler likes to use the example of a high-energy particle released by a radioactive element like radium in Earth’s crust. The particle, as with the photons in the two-slit experiment, exists in many possible states at once, traveling in every possible direction, not quite real and solid until it interacts with something, say a piece of mica in Earth’s crust.
When that happens, one of those many different probable outcomes becomes real. In this case the mica, not a conscious being, is the object that transforms what might happen into what does happen. The trail of disrupted atoms left in the mica by the high-energy particle becomes part of the real world.

I think quanta=consciousness/awareness/existence/God. The foundational particles of the universe, quanta, are immaterial or too small to be physically measured although their existence may be demonstrated by a super collider or mathematical equation. Scientists may call quanta.. energy reduced to its smallest particle or the foundational components of matter.. To me this energy is awareness, existence, God. Can’t find it but it’s here.
I say this based on what I think quanta means. Since I have never studied physics, my concept of quanta may be incorrect. If someone wants to reprimand me or deconstruct what I just said, fine with me. But why bother with this inconsequential post?
What I mean to say is that, regardless of what quantum means, God is awareness/consciousness. I guess the argument is which came first, matter or awareness/consciousness. Scientists say matter created consciousness. I think consciousness and matter are the same thing.
Nothing novel or profound said here. I’m just sittin’ here thinking God is obvious if you look in the right direction which is no direction at all and don’t think about it. Just… stop.

Jesse said:
“Most traditions say that mystic experiences confer various powers or siddhis. This is true of all mainstream hinduism and buddhism, and in some christian and islamic mystic traditions as well.”
You are completely mistaken about that. In every tradition siddhas are concerned an aside that don’t come to everyone and are an impediment when and if they really do.
“You seem to have an anger problem, which is weird for someone with so much self control that he can leave his body and meet god.”
LOL…leave my body and meet God? Did I ever say anything about leaving my body? Or meeting God? You seem full of strange religious memes that have zero to do with what I have actually said. No I’m not angry about it, but I think you are clearly angry about something.

Wait a minute 287daysleft!
You wrote
“: “when you close your eyes the visible world does actually literally disappear (and goes back to potential) and re-manifests again when you open them.”
To believe that what you see is all there is, is an Atheist argument!
Stop stealing from Atheism.! 😉

Ok, Joe. Then what was your big mystic experience that you’re so proud of?

What I mean to say is that, regardless of what quantum means, God is awareness/consciousness. I guess the argument is which came first, matter or awareness/consciousness. Scientists say matter created consciousness. I think consciousness and matter are the same thing

Um, what’s the matter with you? 🙂
Ishwar Puri’s mystic explanation characterizes consciousness as
both awareness and creative force. God is then the “Totality of
Consciousness”. Therefore nothing exists without consciousness.
You’re on the right track, I think, at least mystically. Do you think
we’ll ever get to the truth of the matter though?

I think Ishwar’s explanation is the same, at least the way I understood his words.
” Do you think we’ll ever get to the truth of the matter though?”
— If we ever get “to” it then we’ve missed it. Truth/God is not an object. It can’t be known because it is the knowing.
I may sound in that sentence that I think I am an authority. I’m not.
But to answer your your question simply.. Sure, we’ll get there if getting there means understanding. Keep trying. It’s a paradox. ‘Trying’ obscures it but you can’t help but try which somehow sets you up for it.
There is a Zen story about Unk the dog. He wants Truth really bad and tries to climb the mountain to get to understanding. He gets exhuasted along the way and sits down to rest. At that moment it it dawns on him.

@ Brian – hello ! What’s your (highest qualification) in physics?
Can you do calculus?

If a Guru steals money but everyone closes their eyes, is that why the money disappeaered?

I’ve had a calculus course, most of which I’ve forgotten. I know quite a bit about quantum theory because the first book I wrote, “God’s Whisper, Creation’s Thunder,” discusses this subject at some length.
I got a shorter and simpler edition of the book back in print this year. Buy it!
https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Whisper-Creations-Thunder-Spiritual/dp/0977735230/
I’ve read numerous books about quantum theory, have attended talks on this subject, and am currently reading a book about the history and current state of quantum theory, “What is Real? The Unfinished Quest for the Meaning of Quantum Physics.”
https://www.amazon.com/What-Real-Unfinished-Meaning-Quantum/dp/0465096050/
Below is the description of that book. I’m sharing it to show that there is a lot of disagreement about the meaning of quantum physics. There’s no disagreement about the calculations, or math, which works perfectly. It is flat-out wrong for someone to say that “observation creates reality.” This is only one way of looking at what is called the Measurement Problem.
There are many other ways, including the Many Worlds theory where observation does nothing, because every possible outcome of an observation, or measurement, occurs in an alternative world, of which there countless.
Anyway, here’s the description of “What is Real?”
———————–
Every physicist agrees quantum mechanics is among humanity’s finest scientific achievements. But ask what it means, and the result will be a brawl. For a century, most physicists have followed Niels Bohr’s Copenhagen interpretation and dismissed questions about the reality underlying quantum physics as meaningless. A mishmash of solipsism and poor reasoning, Copenhagen endured, as Bohr’s students vigorously protected his legacy, and the physics community favored practical experiments over philosophical arguments. As a result, questioning the status quo long meant professional ruin. And yet, from the 1920s to today, physicists like John Bell, David Bohm, and Hugh Everett persisted in seeking the true meaning of quantum mechanics. What Is Real? is the gripping story of this battle of ideas and the courageous scientists who dared to stand up for truth.

Hi Brian:
‘””observation creates reality.” This is only one way of looking at what is called the Measurement Problem.’
Maybe this is the belief problem. If I believe it hard enough it must be true!
And how interesting to see the same denial theme play out in a person’s system of thinking about reality. If we close our eyes it all goes away, right?

If a Guru steals money but everyone closes their eyes, is that why the money disappeaered?

If everyone observes the Guru steal, will the money
disappear from his impersonator’s pocket?

Blogger Brian:
I don’t know how much clearer quantum mechanics can be on this: “There is no observed without an observer.” It can’t happen. It doesn’t happen. They arise together or not at all.
But let’s just look at some non-quantum physicists, Albert Einstein for instance who said to Besso’s widow: “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That signifies nothing. For those of us who believe in physics, the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”
This does not sound like atheism to me. Many eminent scientists are not atheists. Neither is Buddhism atheist.
Here is a quote from Buddha himself:
“There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.” — Udana VIII.3
Let’s see if Taoism is atheistic:
According to Taoism, life and death are complementary aspects and death is not to be feared. Death is considered to be a transformation. The soul is eternal. It may migrate to another life and continue to do so until the eternal soul achieves harmony with the Tao.
But of course all of that is unimportant. What is clear is that Awareness is all and everything. There can be no moment from which it is absent. It always is and always was. There is no other possibility. The atheist idea that it is possible to somehow get out of awareness when the body drops is not founded in reality.
Look, I’m sorry there is so much craziness among religionists. But just because there are rotten carrots doesn’t mean discard all carrots.
.

Hi Brian – I asked as you write a scientist. Thanks for replying.
The philosophers stone will be when they nail Dark Matter and Energy! Whosoever nails that will be Einstein of our era!
All the best

Regarding this quantum mechanics thing, which is a topic different than atheism …..
I have a pen on my desk. I am not touching it or hearing it. I close my eyes and the pen disappears. Did the pen actually disappear? Strictly speaking, yes. You can say well I imagined it was still there and when I opened my eyes it was there again, so it was there all along. Wrong. When there was no witness of it, there is no way to say it was there. To be “there,” means there was a witness, not just someone imagining. We must discern imagination from reality.
If a tree falls in an uninhabited forest did it make a sound? No, the definition of sound requires both sound vibrations and a hearer of them. Similarly the existence of a pen requires both an object and a subject. You have one without the other and you have no pen in reality, only in imagination.
That’s why I asked previously, is this discussion limited to reality or is it going to be about imagination?
.

@ Spencer – if he is a thief – He can not preach saying that if you want to destroy someone : give them loads of money!
He needs to make a statement ASAP- a lot of us need closure.
We know we won’t see anything thing within as Gurinder said that we are not allowed to see anything as it only detracts us. Really? Or does he have no power to show us anything!!! It’s a nice ploy nevertheless.
Any as we say where I am from “show me the money”!!!!!!

Hi Arjuna
Well, from my perspective he absolutely has The Power.
So you can go on with meditation struggles as best as you can knowing it pays off.
Yah, even just that incredible peace where you are at the center and He is there in the darkness with you, nothing else is there in the darkness but you and Him, and waves of joy.
That darkness is a dear treasure.
Don’t let all this distract (though I would say it’s a hurdle to overcome).
There is the inner Master and the outer Master.
And since our true Master made all these laws, naturally he needs to be held accountable at every level.
The courts can exercise compassion, But the truth and his acknowledgement are all part of this play. And it needs to play out in the light of fact, not superstition.
The joy within is a fact, not superstition.
So should the mechanics of the operation of RSSB and its leader.

Neils Bohr discovered the basic configuration of the atom : Protons, Neutrons, Electrons. His contributions cannot be over estimated.
And he discovered that light waves and particles of matter could behave interchangeably, in a complementary fashion, as opposed to being two opposites, hence the quanta.
So much more has been learned since then about dozens of other sub atomic particles and forces that underlay these and all matter.
Matter is energy, energy is matter, changing states relative to the environment and forever connected to the whole. Time itself is flexible and part and parcel of each field of matter and energy.
When we perceive time it is always well after the fact. So where is the real “now?” Maybe yesteday! Or even further back!

If all solid matter were compressed to remove the empty source between particles, this entire universe would be an invisible speck.
Now that’s already happened, is happening, will happen.
If there was a big bang (just one? Hardly!) It was such a speck in an immeasurable instant that became all this and all time (within this universe).

This creation is like a huge Weather balloon, but which is really mostly empty space, inflated to its huge size and inflating still (even as tiny sections deflate) . Or a large image projected onto a wall from an infinitely small projector.

@ Spencer – my concentration is quite good at the moment – do you think it would wise why He did this on plane (earth)?

@ spencer – to ask him within

Proof of a “perfect creator” is not in the magical violation of the laws that run this creation.
It is the constancy of those laws within their scope of influence.
Because those laws weren’t always there. They emerged as part of the emerging creation. At the precise moment something exists, in that moment so too all the laws to govern it. And as that field grows, new laws appear also, given at that larger field.
And those new forces built upon the structure of the smaller and greater forces in the tiny fields from which they emerge.
What a system!
The notion of intelligent design is a human notion. It’s not smart at all. Human beings think than act. How clunky is that?
But to have all of that done, even to a perfect level of zero variation right from the instant, that is genius. A particle comes into existance, a new force ariives and all the laws that dress it are there.
So what is this God? Our human capacity to comprehend. Of course we anthropomorphosize! We’re people. We put things in people terms.
But when we move beyond that, we become aware of ourselves as a speck of energy in a field of pure and beautiful energy. And we just want to merge in that completely and forget ourselves. That field is attracted to us, comes to us, takes a form we can understand. But we are happy to leave all those forms and become the entire!

@ Arjuna : Heard of the word ” MAUJ ” ……… ?????
It’s the most fucked up word in the Sant Mat lexicon because it justifies anything and everything.
( Not meant offensively at you, just saying ………… )

@ Bombay Blonde- hello and hope you are well.
Yes I have heard of that word and truth be told I have never been fond of that word.
How come that word came into your mind – if I may ask?

Hi Bombay and Arjuna
“Why did he do it? ”
You see we are looking for an answer to tell us “maybe this was right.”
And no doubt there may be extenuating circumstances.
But the facts are wrong behavior. No one should emulate what Baba J has done.
It was unethical several times over.
Nothing will alter that fact.
So step one we can take responsibility to know right from wrong, like every good child.
When parents have to learn right from wrong all over again, they’ve been corrupted.
So it’s very bad. Really bad.
Yah.
I think Arjuna, you can take this directly to Baba Ji within. Follow your meditation instructions, and when you are calm, at the right moment you can bring this directly to Gurindar and say “WTF!”
It’s my new meditation practice!
It’s all on him. And that’s where each initiate should return it.

@ Arjuna : It’s a common cop out that is often used when something is unjustifiable. It ascribes itself to a greater meaning beyond human understanding. It’s an escape from critical reasoning. It’s used in many religious sects.
MAUJ, MARZI, HUKUM are one-word comfort zones. Spiritual aviators. Blinders for bats.

@ Bombay Blonde – agrees.
I’ve heard sine right idiots use that term and when things don’t go their way – they ain’t keen to say it then.
Fully aware of what you mean now.
I’m conflicted by what Spencer wrote – does God really mess up. Yet he expects us to live like saints – yet they chill on private planes and live in Mayfair. What the hell is going on

@ Arjuna : Ask Spencer …… 🙂
Is the Master the path ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SZbJpbVRzo

@ Bombay – I’m sure he read this

@ Bombay blonde – feels like hell!
And I’m on tour In hell

The Path is your own meditation upon the Spirit, worship of Nam. Your efforts all go to your credit, and to no one else. Your results are all your own wealth that is eternal and entirely transferable.
Every human being carries Karma. Every human being carries flaws. Any human being can fall. Even a Saint.
Even the good teacher whose wisdom carried you, yes, they can call.
Great Gurus, highly advanced souls who have real help to their followers also fell, violated ethics, did bag things.
Just a fall. No excuses. Happens all the time.
Wise and powerful people, helpful people, noble people, become corrupted.
And those who teach the pinnacle because of their wisdom, and self – sacrifice, by the very freedom and power become corrupted and fall.
That takes away nothing from the good works they did or are doing.
But they are still responsible for the unethical or immoral acts. No one is above divine law.
And so the circle goes. Those at the very very very top slide.
“And looking at the trail of ants the boy pointed and said,” Indras all. ”

@ Arjuna : Be your own Guru, have your own Mauj. It is the only trip that sustains … 🙂

@ Bombay – it’s bit hard when I’m on tour 😀

@ Bombay – I do agree with you it’s nit like he is coming to help me !
Wish I had 25 billion or whatever the sum is – I would open schools in Africa and orphanage homes – as I am one myself.

Arjuna
All assistance is within. A loving and higher power is within. Doesn’t need a face. You can turn to that within. Do not think for one second you are alone. That’s illusion.

@ Spencer – I believe you

@ Arjuna : Noble thoughts. I prefer philanthropists over Gurus. I can’t believe in a God who doesn’t help his own.

If all solid matter were compressed to remove the empty source between particles, this entire universe would be an invisible speck.

Interesting historical note from Ishwar Puri:
In the 40’s, the squash-down size was conjectured to be
that of a football (probably round, not oblong) ; in the 60’s,
a peanut; now a “speck”.

If all solid matter were compressed to remove the empty source between particles, this entire universe would be an invisible speck.

Interesting historical note from Ishwar Puri:
In the 40’s, the squash-down size was conjectured to be
that of a football (probably round, not oblong) ; in the 60’s,
a peanut; now a “speck”.

Hi Bombay
God helps everyone. But sometimes it’s tough love.
Let me share a peak within.
The very confidence and personal power Gurindar needed to adopt to carry out the work of the message of Spirit is a host of qualities that become baggage and left to their own do as much damage as good.
The very ego, pride and self assurance he was given to get this far, now that Karma has to be shed. So we all have to live through the natural destructive results of those qualities also. It must be worn away, peeled away before he leaves. It’s all God’s work, from that perspective.
Then you will see he is a soul just like you and I.that’s a very good outcome!
No worse, no better. A reminder of the need for us to monitor ourselves and struggle for progress beyond ourselves and into spirit. No human being gets beyond human being. For that you must enter spirit
But a soul is always greater than the cult of personality required to function in this dark place.
So that should strengthen our commitment to find our own connection to the spirit within through our devotion to spirit, our meditation.
You can meet him within and have this convo for yourself.

@ Spence : Are you referring to the higher self ? If yes, it doesn’t need to justify an outer Master’s actions.
The higher self is your personal spiritual guide, it doesn’t need a peg. ( My humble opinion. )

Yes, Bombay
There is no justification for the actions. They are just wrong, ethical violations, and he needs to and will be held accountable.
My comments are related to your remark that God didn’t help Gurindar. Nothing could be further from the truth.
He is being helped by having all this come to light.
We are all working in God’s service, including, maybe especially Brian, to bring about the truthful resolution.

@ Spence : I’m not criticising and I’m talking beyond RSSB. When I say ” I can’t believe in a God who doesn’t help his own ” I’m referring to any God / Guru who isn’t generous with the poor who believe in him. Well, my texts say that even the poorest of Saints shared whatever little they possessed. It’s very simple. Sharing is the first principle. If I have a bottle of water, you wouldn’t want me to keep you thirsty while I go off meditating. I find that most brands of Sant Mat either focus too much on the Guru, or on the self. I prefer relaxing into a little selflessness … 🙂

Hi Bombay
Yes my mistake.
You wrote
“I’m referring to any God / Guru who isn’t generous with the poor who believe in him. Well, my texts say that even the poorest of Saints shared whatever little they possessed.”
Yes. Such souls are worth our respect.
The cult of personality is a huge issue. I agree. Selflessness. That’s real Seva.
Lose yourself in your work. If it’s good work, it’s Seva.

@ Spence : Indeed, Spence. You said it … 🙂

@ Spencer – still lost now totally lost. If Gurinder needs Gods help – how can he help me???
This is where the message gets weak!!! How can someone who has even remote access to the inner regions fall.
I wouldn’t and haven’t – and yet tell me tell you something I have been tempted all my life but the traumas in mylife have given me strength.
Question – if he ain’t God – the mediation he gave us is not better than listening to a kylie minigue record. The whole point is that he pulls up and we can not go within of our own accord !!! So once again how do we get within now without a guide and then meet the inner master who is the same image of the outer!!! It’s a contradiction of the highest order!!
Someone help!!!! Just messing

Hi Arjuna
See the God in Gurindar.
See the God in Kylie.
Have faith in that Spirit in you. Let that love come through all doubts. It’s right there inside.
And it will do all the work that can ever be done.
As I wrote earlier, Maharaji, Jagat, Sawan, Jaimal, Shiv, Arjun, Kabir, Rumi, Jesus, they’re not sitting on their hands. They carry the responsibility for your progress and arrival. Let Gurindar get through this on the outside.
You have your own stuff to go through. Let any one of these Saints help you. It’s wrong for anyone to say they can’t. That’s a lie. They are all love and carry no defense for a loving soul who needs their help. But it’s all done within, Arjuna. That’s where you must go.
Anyone in this world can help point the way, even a voice in cyberspace. So, follow the orders you were given with absolute obedience and laser focus. There are all the great Generals of all time shouting out to you to join them.

@ Spencer – thanks but your mind operates at a high level!
I want truth that’s all. To see beyond this shitty creation that what’s haunts me – not to die being dead like the majority of humanity. You will understand that

Hi Arjuna!
Just think of it as mental practice. Like jogging. First day, ugh, terrible, can’t get half way down the block.
Six months later, two miles or more! No problem!
Just a discipline to look within, to gradually withdraw from worldly fears, concerns.
Pick some Saint you love. Give it to Him in meditation: Simran, DIan, Bhajan. Put worry aside, friend.
Understand that in the darkness is an overhwelming wave of love. Let it come to you. Be still.
Just that. Daily. Some days, great, others awful. But if you have a way to be in that joy, under your own control, even if the work requires pulling away from these other thoughts, it’s a great return for your effort.
And then, patiently, other stuff comes. But you get the early proof right away in the above.
Again, it’s a practice. Some days great, others crap. Keep at it.
One day you will see that nothing in this outer world compares. So the relative return on your invested time begins to skyrocket….

“To see beyond this shitty creation”
This is a strange thing. To traditional Christians, mankind is good, but sinful, and the creation is also considered a good thing.
Very generally speaking (we’d need master Manjit, the one of the book, for the authoritative answer) to the Indic mind, mankind is divinity under a mask, and the creation is an ugly place that needs to be escaped, or at least the low portion that we inhabit does.
Like a lot of things that change with age, my preference for religious heuristics has as well. I no longer find it optimal or even useful to consider myself better than a human as that saying goes, “We’re spiritual beings having a human experience.” The Indic view, to me, is nothing but an enticing fantasy and one that makes man more egotistical than humble.
Something like the Christian or Stoic perspective of accepting who and what we are makes far more sense to me than pretending I’m secretly a god looking for an escalator located in the center of my forehead, or that seeing and hearing random things proves the existence of other “higher” worlds.
What if you got to those worlds and learned they were all bait and switch scams anyway? It’s all lights on the surface, and devils torturing you when you get in. Be careful what you wish for.

@ Soencer will respond later as it’s going to one hell of a day – pardon the pun.
@ Jesse – again will respond later again – interesting post you wrote particularly about the devils ( you and me like it or not do think alike on a few things you wrote).
Laters Gents

@spence
“Any human being can fall. Even a Saint. ”
Not quite what Julian Johnson says.
He calls the master a superman.
he also says he has no human failings.
These may be the “new teachings” but not the traditional ones

Hi Osho!
Yes the definition of a true Saint is that they cannot actually fall.
But as Maharaji taught, which you can read in Spiritual discourses, even the Saint must assume Karma to be in the physical body. They can’t exist here without taking on some Karma.
And that Karma must be paid in this life. They don’t leave here carrying anything.
We are in no position, actually, to identify a true Saint at our level.
You can have gurus who have great power and personal flaws. They may do great works and be of great spiritual help, Sadh Gurus. You can have individuals at the very top of the wheel of 84, slide right down to the bottom.
That is also Sant Mat teachings.
No Saint ever proclaims themself as a perfect Saint. It is the Satsangis who do this. And that’s dangerous because their judgment is no better than yours or mine.
When Maharaji claimed he was a struggling soul just like the initiate he was speaking to, I would not discount his words.
When Baba Ji told an initiate to stop calling him Lord, that this was the height of presumption, I would honor that.
These labels of perfection people manipulate to avoid personal responsibility to make their own decisions about right and wrong, to assume some sense of perfection themselves, and that is a direct violation of Sant Mat teachings.
The friend who brought me to the path fourty years ago shared this story. When Maharaji visited America in the 1960’s he walked past two older ladies with scarves over their heads bowing and calling him Lord. As he passed he said, “ladies, knock it off.”

Hi Osho
Yes the true Saints are superhuman by definition. But they can do anything they choose. They choose to live as human beings and don’t like to be treated as gods. Those are true saints.
So if they violate their own vows, are they a true Saint?
These are just terms we like to use intellectually. Actually they are meaningless. They aren’t the teachings, just commentary around the teachers.
And the condition of the Saints is a little more complicated.
Maharaji speaks about himself on an audio file, Q & A volume 1, which is freely available at the RSSB site.
A Satsangi, in adoration, says she is so happy to be in his presence and unworthy.
He replies, “Sister, we are all struggling souls. If it were up to me I would be sitting there where you are in the audience. Don’t put me up so high. I’m just like you.”
I think we should honor this.
Why? Because we are in no condition to make that determination. And no Saint asks us to. Accepting they are perfect is not a condition for initiation, nor a vow. And if we use that to relinquish our own personal responsibilities then it is er who have fallen and are no longer acting in accordance with the Master’s teachings.
Sawan Singh, Charan Singh and Gurindar Singh all teach this same: Regard the Saint as a friend there to help you. Whatever else you learn about them will come within in its own time.
And any good friend can be helpful to you, even if they are imperfect.
We should all help each other to be better human beings, and that includes forgiveness.
When asked if the Master carries karma (sin) Maharaji says, “No one can be here without karma.”
They must carry sin to be here. It is of their own choice. And they must get rid of it before they go. But what form does that take? To say they carry no sin contradicts their own teachings. Within, the inner Master, who, as Maharaji teaches, is the Spirit, carries no sin. And when we are with him in Spirit, neither do we.
And finally, in that same book Maharaji says that at our level we can’t possibly know who is a real Saint and who is not.
So when people claim perfection for the Master they are actually speaking only of their personal view. In some ways clinging to that is clinging to superstition. Master doesn’t like that and advises against it.
“Sister, even if we say our master is God, we are just deceiving ourselves. We want intellectually to think that he is God, but unless we experience him within, we can never say he’s God”

The trend by “spiritual” authors today is to appeal to some purported domain that falls outside of the bounds of reason. Steve Mcintish refers to this as “trans-rational” and Tim Freke refers to it as “paralogical thinking”. These authors might have taken their cue from Ken Wilber.
This hypothetical domain of thought—in which there are aspects of life that are resistant or contrary to reason—is invoked as evidence that supernaturalism is or might be true. It goes something like this: there exists trans-rational domains, theism/supernaturalism is contrary to reason, therefore theism/supernaturalism exists (or might exist) by virtue of falling into the domain of the trans-rational.
The problem with this should be abundantly self-evident. Firstly, how one might distinguish between what is “trans-rational” and what is plainly irrational is never elucidated. It seems to be a matter of personal taste. One person’s nonsense is another person’s religion and vice versa. Obviously “trans-rationality” is just irrationality by another name, performing a particular religious function.
Secondly, the “trans-rational” domain—being transcendent of reason—is not subject to verification or proof, as these are the tools of reason. This reliance on un-falsifiability is the oldest trick in the religionist’s book. The inability to disprove what doesn’t exist isn’t evidence in their favor. They either don’t comprehend this or are disingenuous.
Interestingly, if you ask the proponents of this belief (and I have) if it is reasonable for someone to believe in a trans-rational domain of being, they will respond affirmatively. Thus, they are asserting that it is rational to contend that the “trans-rational” exists. It seems to me that they are either asserting a self-negation or unknowingly conceding that nothing can in fact supercede reason (I.e., unknowingly dismantling their own position).

@spence
https://archive.org/details/SarBachanRadhasoamiProse
Sar bachan – the original textbook of radha swami
bachan 9 makes it crystal clear and leaves no room for interpretation.
in the highest region (which by definition a saint has attained) there is no trace of desire
those who reach there CANNOT FALL.
i quote
“this is why great incarnations, rishis, munis came under the influence of maya.”
up to the first and secod region, tthe devotee may fall.
when he reaches the highest region (sat lok) he attains the status of a saint (and cannot fall)
Maharaj Charan Singh never claimed to be a saint.
He only said he was given the job / seva to do and carried it out to the best of his ability.
Ajaib tells his first hand experience of going to Charan and asking for initiation.
Charan Singh tells him in no uncertain terms that he has made no spiritual progress and cannot
guide him on the inner regions. Ajaib thanked him for being honest and left.
by the way – I don’t believe in this – I am just pointing out that the teachings are clear

@spence
“When asked if the Master carries karma (sin) Maharaji says, “No one can be here without karma.””
this refers to sinchit karmas only.
the guru has no “store karmas” and creates no new karmas.
he needs the sinchit karmas in order to take birth.
but he apparently has the power to change his own and others karmas
so many stories of this, which is why the disciples believe it.
hence the disciple asks for grace
as in this ardaas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khvT9iTJSeQ

@spence
“And the condition of the Saints is a little more complicated.”
not according to Sar Bachan – the original text is crystal clear.
bachan 10 says
“although they (rishis) had attained high regions (1st and second regions) they had not
attained the highest region (that of sat naam) – which is beyond maya.”
is this not cear?
it very clearly says only those can fall who have not reached sat lok.

@spence
“So when people claim perfection for the Master they are actually speaking only of their personal view. In some ways clinging to that is clinging to superstition. Master doesn’t like that and advises against it.
“Sister, even if we say our master is God, we are just deceiving ourselves. We want intellectually to think that he is God, but unless we experience him within, we can never say he’s God””
this is a whole different point being made by charan singh.
He is just saying that its blind faith till you reach there, he is not denying that status of a saint.

The friend who brought me to the path fourty years ago shared this story. When Maharaji visited America in the 1960’s he walked past two older ladies with scarves over their heads bowing and calling him Lord. As he passed he said, “ladies, knock it off.”

I don’t believe that story at all, as that is not Charan’s style.
I cannot imagine him saying “knock it off”
unless of course its paraphrased in a big way

Hi Osho
I’d stated
“Yes the true Saints are superhuman by definition. But they can do anything they choose. They choose to live as human beings and don’t like to be treated as gods. Those are true saints.”
Then you replied:
“Sar bachan – the original textbook of radha swami
bachan 9 makes it crystal clear and leaves no room for interpretation.
in the highest region (which by definition a saint has attained) there is no trace of desire
those who reach there CANNOT FALL.”
Yes and no, Osho.
I don’t think you understand what Swami Shiv Dayal Singh wrote. They don’t have to come back again. They choose to come here. And for that they take on Karma.
Whatever karma they take on they must burn here. For the very reason you stated, it’s Sinchit.
But it can be anything. It can be a “fall”..Anything they choose.
You wrote:
“this is a whole different point being made by charan singh.
He is just saying that its blind faith till you reach there, he is not denying that status of a saint.”
No Osho, he is telling you that you should not infer anything you havn’t confirmed for yourself.
It’s all self deception until you see it for yourself. So to presume He is God, to depict Him in that way without having seen it is just self deception. It’s actually trying to be God, perfect, at some level.
I understand it isn’t an easy point.
But if you follow what Master said, then you won’t even presume to teach such a thing that you have not yet experienced. You will take Him as your friend and helper.
Otherwise you are actually violating his request.
I don’t think Maharaji could be any clearer about this;
“”Sister, even if we say our master is God, we are just deceiving ourselves. We want intellectually to think that he is God, but unless we experience him within, we can never say he’s God””
And Osho, these aren’t vows.
In Christianity, you must take a vow that Jesus is God.
There is no such vow like that in Sant Mat.
It’s not actually part of the teachings. It’s just a report from others.
But our Master teaches us not to be presumptuous.
Just as Baba Ji said also.
As for Maharaji, yes, he may have said something like “Ladies, please stop that…”
No new teachings.
If the Master must fall, so it will happen.
But most importantly, until we get to His level, we should not PRESUME He is anything more than a good friend.
Because doing that, people make all sorts of excuses for misbehavior, not just on the part of the Master but on their own part as well.
I go with Brian: When you see it, then you can believe it.
Even then, test it thoroughly.
Osho, it’s not worth debating. Go with what you know, put the theory aside.

In all the time I spent with Charan Singh he was a calm, dignified gentleman. He would not say something insensitive and coarse like, “ladies, knock it off”. He said, “C’mon bitches, get real. Cool it.”

My comment above at 10:52 PM was in response to a comment by Osho which was removed (in fact a whole series of his comments were removed). So, out of context, my comment may appear a little strange and off the wall. Let me clarify: Charan would have said to some women calling him “Lord”, “You’re a bunch of dumb-ass bitches pulling this kind of shit. Cut the crap and get real. Jesus! What’s the matter with you people?”

tucson,
Click on the ‘Back’ button on this thread and you will find that Osho’s comments are still there.
Why the offensive words about what you think Charan would have said to women? Not like your usual comments, are you simply enjoying being a grumpy old man?

“There is no such vow like that in Sant Mat.
It’s not actually part of the teachings. It’s just a report from others.”
WRONG.
The RSSB books aka the teachings, are full of references to the godhood of gurus. Don’t make me go buy those godawful books again just to prove my point.

Hi Jesse
You quoted me and claimed that statement was wrong
“‘”There is no such vow like that in Sant Mat.
‘ It’s not actually part of the teachings. It’s just a report from others.’
You commented
” WRONG.
The RSSB books aka the teachings, are full of references to the godhood of gurus. ”
I see the confusion.
Christians must take a vow and publicly claim that Jesus is God and they will have no other.
In Sant Mat we don’t do that. We take four vows:
1. Engage in the practice of meditation with the goal / commitment / honest effort to put in 2 1/2 hours per day (10% of our time).
2. Eat a lacto vegetarian diet.
3. Don’t do recreational drugs, don’t drink alcohol.
4. Lead a clean moral life.
That’s it.
In the books you will find the saints of all ages praised.
But you will also find in the teachings, and as cited above, that at our level it is impossible to know. We are at the bottom of a mountain looking up and unable to gage the altitude of our teacher (or anyone else for that matter) so we should regard the Master as a good friend. In time and through our meditation practice, our ability to understand deepens, and we can make our own decision about our Master.
Those are the teachings in the books.
And there is no vow where we proclaim anything else. In fact Maharaji claimed calling the Master God so was just self deception. Sawan Singh said much the same.
Now what is different is the influence of culture upon the actual practice of the Path. An organization arises around the Guru, and people develop rules and superstitious beliefs to maintain and grow their own status in that organization. At that point the teachings are lost to a religion.
Otherwise, Jesse, I happen to love your wry and sharp humor.
So if you will please make the same criticism as a witty joke I shall accept it as more valuable than any literal truth.

spence wrote

I don’t think you understand what Swami Shiv Dayal Singh wrote. They don’t have to come back again. They choose to come here. And for that they take on Karma.
Whatever karma they take on they must burn here. For the very reason you stated, it’s Sinchit.
But it can be anything. It can be a “fall”..Anything they choose.

So they choose a “fall” ?
Why would anyone choose a fall?
the whole idea is nonsense.
Jesus chose to be put on the cross, when he coud have chosen anything?
Arjun dev chose to die that way
So if they have a disease they chose that also.
Give me a break!
And how exactly do you know all this?
Are you privy to some special inside info?

Hi Osho
I really do appreciate your effort to understand how the whole Sant Sat Guru thing works.
But unfortunately at our level we can’t.
The teachings tell us the Guru takes on Karma.
You are trying to rationalize just what sort of Karma that might be.
I agree that in my judgment no Sant Sat Guru would violate their own vows.
Especially since they teach us that generally the Lord doesn’t like to break his / her own laws.
So all we can do is conjecture. And I don’t see the point in that. Because whether your reasoning or mine is better is nothing like witnessing truth for ourselves.
If you judge Baba Ji as a law breaker all the teachings in the world will hardly matter. If your heart, gut and mind come together on that, you have your truth.
Neither you nor I can know even what is going on in each other’s head. And we can respect that.
We can know the facts of the matter and draw an adult conclusion for ourselves. If you give it your best it can’t be wrong. It might turn out to be mistaken, but if you give it your sincere best, it’s up to God to bring you up through to the Truth.
However, we must do our part.. Investigate with an open mind. Seek corroborating evidence. Withhold final judgment until the standard of objective fact has been met.
These seem to me to be the far more important teachings. And I think we can agree on them. They do the least harm and assure our time here isn’t wasted.
So let’s put them into practice.

Hi Jen,
Since the Gurinder scandal got going strong this blog has become very busy and it is getting hard for me to find things. Sometimes I forget where I made a comment and never know if anyone made a reply or not.
Using the ‘back’ button as you suggested helped me find the comment Osho made:
“The friend who brought me to the path fourty years ago shared this story. When Maharaji visited America in the 1960’s he walked past two older ladies with scarves over their heads bowing and calling him Lord. As he passed he said, “ladies, knock it off.”
I don’t believe that story at all, as that is not Charan’s style.
I cannot imagine him saying “knock it off”
unless of course its paraphrased in a big way”
–No, I wasn’t in a bad mood. My comment was a lame attempt at humor in regard to the above. I feel Charan was a dignified gentleman and would likely never speak like that. Hence, my “joke”.
If anyone feels like trying to figure out what we’re talking about, don’t bother. It’s not worth it.

Spencer I didn’t say you had to take a vow that you accept the guru as god. I said RS books teach that guru is god.

Hi Jesse
You wrote
“said RS books teach that guru is god.”
Yes but they also teach that you should only believe what your inner experience tells you. And they also teach they it isn’t necessary to believe they in order to follow the path. In fact Maharaji said wanting to believe it could be just self self deception.

Hi tucson,
You say, “If anyone feels like trying to figure out what we’re talking about, don’t bother. It’s not worth it.”
So true. So many times I ask myself wtf am I trying to say. I think I’m enjoying getting old and daffy, I can amuse myself no end!

spence wrote

But unfortunately at our level we can’t.
The teachings tell us the Guru takes on Karma.
You are trying to rationalize just what sort of Karma that might be.
I agree that in my judgment no Sant Sat Guru would violate their own vows.
Especially since they teach us that generally the Lord doesn’t like to break his / her own laws.

do you know how ridiculous that would sound to someone not in sant mat?
Vows; laws; the lord doesn’t like to break them?
different types of karmas. etc
sant mat books are written “as a matter of fact” as if once it is written, its gospel.
the truth is: its just another belief system.
Like muslims believe in the koran
like Christians believe in the bible
each one believes their book is a fact – not a belief.
their whole life is based on a book
sant mat is no different, but the followers think it is.
what is their evidence?
meditation and inner experiences and visions.
freedom from the belief only comes when you realize “I know nothing”
or “I am just another blind believer”

Another part of the RS tradition that is equally ridiculous is their claim that they are the sole gatekeepers of inner experience and that other religions either are mired in superstition and ritual, highly limited in their upward mobility in terms of mystic attainment, or they lost the REAL meaning of their religion. And the REAL meaning just happens to be everything RS teaches.
Until I left and started paying some attention I didn’t realize that most religions still teach much of the inner stuff. You just have to ask.
I wonder what would happen if a satsangi saw Jesus inside their head. Should they ignore him? Since we’re supposedly incapable of discerning real from fake, why should some inner visions be trusted over others for any reason except that the vision matches the description in our preferred book?

Hi Osho and Jesse!
There is a rich tradition of mystic literature down through the ages, including the writings of Jesus, that references the Holy Sound, the Word, the LOGOS, which is the Spirit that can be heard.
If you happen to have had that experience, it all makes sense. It’s not the property of Sant Mat at all. It’s a physical fact built into every human being, and that is the true Sant Mat.
Is it a spiritual fact? It is a blissful fact, an intense, shattering and ecstatic experience attended with a series of ever deepening and louder sounds, until you hear the thunderous reverbration of a huge bell, as if a bell were so large it could vibrate with the depth of a speeding train. So loud, it can be painful; and then shocking peals of light, so bright they can hurt.
And then the pull through vast regions of stars, explosions of multi-colored lights, then regions of utter and frightening darkness, along an arc that is terrifying in its size and scope.
Difficult to describe. Starts as a whistle or a wind.
These experiences will continue to be recorded because they actually happen.
They must be part of the physiology of the human being.
But there they are, for those who are given that gift.
I’m not sure you can “make it happen” on your own if it isn’t already there for you.
But I’m not sure it’s “divine” except that it feels that way.
So, add culture to it and you get these incredibly consistent reports.
But having no experience of this, naturally it appears like someone is trying to make something look the same that comes from different cultures.
They are describing something real, that is experienced within.
I can say that much.
If it’s hallucination, it is something built into several people, and which they can gain control and amazing bliss from.
When Jesus said that those born of the Spirit were the wind itself, the inner wind that has no location in this world, or when Rumi said he listened to the reed flute of the soul, or Socrates (in Plato) said he hears the flute of the mystic and it is all he listens to now; when Tennyson said that the Spirit has a voice which we should listen to…all the same thing:
“Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.”
Psalm 89:15-16
“29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord”
Mark 12:29
This only looks this way from the perspective of someone who has this experience. They say “Oh, that’s what I experienced!”
Anyone else would think these things are entirely unrelated.
So you are destined to move forward on the basis of your experience, and your capacity to reason only within that experience, including what you have learned to trust as factual information.
And that’s OK. Everyone has their own destiny.
As for seeing Jesus, Rumi, they are all there, including your Master….

According to Indians and RSSB, Spencer.
It’s yet to be shown that all these religions were about worshipping sounds. This again is RSSB pretending that they have the TRUE knowledge of every religion while everyone else is lost and knows nothing.
I repeated the propaganda myself for a decade. Still own a John Davidson book. Not convinced its true even if some people claim they hear sounds and see faces. And I’m skeptical that seeing and hearing those things means what you want it to.
Maybe satan puts those things in you to give you false hope. You’d have zero way to know.

Jesse
You wrote:
“Maybe satan puts those things in you to give you false hope”
And maybe you are extremely blinkered by your own prejudices.
it’s one thing to say “I have no exposure to that” and another to say “Satan!”
Really Jesse?
Really?

It was a joke Spencer.
But if it can be Kal, why not satan? What’s the difference other than that one is Jewish and the other is super cool trendy Indian spirituality?
Even by your own religion’s standards it’s possible that you’re being deceived by all these fancy lights and sounds. If you happened to choose the wrong gurus, you’re pretty much screwed according to sant mat.

I agree with Spence that inner sound, light and Guru experiences are baked into human physiology, and occur across cultures / religions.
Let’s dive into each one…
Re: sound experience, perhaps this is tinnitus?
The condition produces train, flute and bell sounds and can be painful. Plus, I can totally understand how people in the past would think these mysterious sounds are divine and build a narrative around them.
http://www.hearing.nihr.ac.uk/public/auditory-examples-sounds-of-tinnitus
Any bliss experienced could be due to the positive effects of single-minded focus along with the sense of accomplishment that would naturally come with feeling you’re one of the chosen few to hear God’s rock band. 😉
Re: seeing colors inside, this phenomenon may be due to “phosphenes” as described in the below article. The phenomenon could also be a kind of lucid dreaming. When I was a young kid, in bed, I’d close my eyes and go through veils of color and ultimately land in some “dream place” that I felt like visiting. There was no Guru there, and this was long before my initiation.
http://scienceline.org/2014/12/why-do-we-see-colors-with-our-eyes-closed/
Lastly, re: seeing a Guru inside, perhaps the seer is the one manifesting the vision (vs. the Guru manifesting it).
I’ve been at Sant Mat initiations where a couple attendees saw Christ inside, and another saw Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. We each tend to see who we believe in and spent time focusing on. I can attest to this. When I’m really, really into a girl, I tend to see her face inside, in my dreams, etc.
All this being said, I am not trying to degrade anyone’s belief. If your practice makes you more loving and balanced, then do it.
I too enjoy light and sound meditation, and think the Sant Mat practice yields a lot of benefits (diet, meditation, self reflection, sense of purpose, etc.). However, the lofty unsubstantiated stories satsangis tell are dangerous in that they can raise the ego/pride and make the path look totally fraudulent. People who are benefiting may quit. Kirpal Singh warned people not to tell such stories.
Note to 777: Synchronicities and coincidences do not count as proof of Gurinder’s divinity. Everyone experiences these, and yes, they can be wonderful.
Thank you to Brian and all of the commentators for the content and discussion. Fascinating stuff.

Avid CoC reader :
Thanks for those two links. Fascinating!
I’ve also come across the view — probably expressed here in this blog of Brian’s itself, but I’m not sure, it may have been some place else — that many of these so-called spiritual experiences (that all religions, starting from the most ancient to the more recent ones, and originating in whichever particular geography, are ultimately based on) might be the result of epileptic seizures.
To my knowledge there is no comprehensive study of this nature — and of course, my own knowledge is far from all-encompassing, so that I could be mistaken in thinking that there is no such study, already! — but it would be fascinating to have a proper, rigorous study along these lines. Where the connection of spiritual experiences (especially of the kind that religions are based on, like bushes catching fire and pronouncing solemn commandments, and imagining that one is God’s uniquely endowed son, and imagining that the Archangel Gabriel visits one in desert caves and dictates divine texts to one, and these celestial lights and sounds that are so widely discussed in this blog, and so forth) with natural causes like tinnitus (and these phosphenes you speak of, and with epilepsy, and also other possible causes like schizophrenia for instance, and obviously drug-induced hallucinations as well, not to forget hallucinations brought about by starvation/fasting) are explored, properly and with rigor.
It would be fascinating to see what some such properly rigorous study/research might have to say.

As for lucid dreaming, that you also speak of, that’s another very interesting rabbit hole, well worth burrowing into and exploring a bit. (And I would guess that research into sleep is more widespread, from a medical perspective, than research into meditation and spirituality and prophetic revelations, so that it is quite possible that this at least is something we already know about, properly and scientifically.)
Some questions that it would be interesting to know the answers to : Why is it that only some people experience lucid dreams, while most don’t? Can lucid dreaming be consciously induced? (If nothing else, I’m sure it would be vastly entertaining to be able to dream whatever one wants to dream, and to be able to navigate one’s way consciously across dreams.) Are lucid dreams any worse (or any better) than regular dreams, physiologically speaking, or are they no different from regular dreams in terms of how this affects the brain’s rest as well as assimilation of information?

Hi Appreciative:
You wrote:
“However, the lofty unsubstantiated stories satsangis tell are dangerous in that they can raise the ego/pride and make the path look totally fraudulent. People who are benefiting may quit. Kirpal Singh warned people not to tell such stories.”
I disagree heartily with this statement. Let me explain. Anyone who speaks to their experience is bringing that experience out, to light. Whatever it is, good, bad, or otherwise, no one should censor their experience.
Now, how to deal with someone else’s experience? As their subjective experience.
You don’t need to find explanations. And the reason is that this would all be conjecture.
I don’t expect anyone else to think my experiences reflect Spirit.
They reflect something I experience as holy, divine, beautiful, ecstatic.
Those are my treasures.
From your perspective, they can’t be anything other than someone else’s subjective experiences. But you can honor that someone has something they consider sacred and holy. That’s a good thing.
We should all have something we love more than ourselves, that in love and pursuit, whether science, or art, or meditation, we are raised from our daily experience into a more transcendent experience, one that gives us peace, harmony, sense of oneness.
I think if Kirpal said we shouldn’t express it, I would rather claim that everyone who hears it should honor it as the subjective but sacred personal experience of someone else.
It doesn’t have to have objective reality in your terms in order to be of the highest value to the person who experienced it.
You may then share what is sacred to YOU…walk in the garden, watching a sunset, the embrace of your child….
As for objective reality, until you experience these exact things the saints have described, you are only conjecturing.
So, your comments are of very little value in conjecture. Unless you are practicing so that you may also duplicate such experiences for your own personal investigation.
Should you be able to duplicate that series of beautiful sounds that transport you across the stars, then you are in a position to comment intelligently upon them.
Otherwise, just accept them as subjective, personal and sacred to the person who reports them.
And let’s make it easy for everyone to report their personal experiences in this way, so that we avoid censorship of things we don’t understand or experience….yet.
And so we actually recognize all sorts of holy and sacred personal experiences, whatever they are. Not just one small set from one group of mystics. But the much larger range of the Human Subjective Experience that is equally holy and sacred. That should be a celebration, not a censorship. Maybe the world would be a better place if folks realized that no one can own these things. They belong to the human race, and quite varied, yet holy, sacred, divine.
I will tell you that for Brian, the Truth is holy. It is Sacred. He will allow nothing to stand between himself and any factual Truth.
He has his spirituality firmly grounded in something that is eternal.
So, let’s celebrate the entire range of experience, knowing we each of us will only have our own.

Brian’s truth is holy, sacred, factual but its not everyone’s Truth. How can it be the same for everyone. We all have different experiences in life, we are born with different genetics, we are programmed from birth, we are influenced by the country we live in and the people we mix with and what we are taught to be real. So what is this Truth?
When it comes to very personal spiritual or out of body experiences these are just as real as what we are experiencing in this life, in this human form, on this planet. Maybe everything is illusionary – Maya – the power by which the universe becomes manifest, the illusion or appearance of the phenomenal world.

Quote Spencer : I disagree heartily with this statement. Let me explain. (…) Now, how to deal with someone else’s experience? As their subjective experience. (…)
Hello, Spence.
That bit you quoted wasn’t from my comment at all. You were responding to, and disagreeing with, not what I said, but someone else who’s logged in here with a moniker not dissimilar to mine. In fact, my two short comments here on this thread yesterday were in response to the thoughts expressed by that same “avid” poster.
I don’t think I disagree with your POV. I have no issues at all with your discussing your subjective experiences, as long as we’re all clear that this is subjective. Once a claim to some objective truth is made, that is when the burden of evidence arises. Since, as you say, you make no such claims, I don’t see that you necessarily need to back up with evidence anything you describe as your wholly subjective experience. I don’t see that you actually carry any burden of evidence yourself. (Unless, that is, one deconstructs this line of thinking one further notch, and disbelieves that you actually did have these experiences at all. I, for one, have no reason to that!)
Of course, in as much as you’re voluntarily presenting your experiences here for discussion, I suppose I (or anyone else who has a mind to) may end up actually discussing those experiences, either with you or amongst ourselves, and presenting our own views on them. As for whether one does this exploration of another’s subjective with respect and sympathy, or not : that I suppose would depend entirely on the person who’s doing this exploring. I personally would not, in the normal course, ever dream of disrespecting another’s feelings or experiences (indeed, I wouldn’t, personally, in the normal course, disrespect another person at all, irrespective of whether they had any kinds of feelings or experiences, or shared them with me, or not). I personally think that it is okay to not engage with others if one doesn’t want to ; but that if one does choose to engage with others (and especially with others’ cherished feelings and experiences), then it makes sense, in the normal course, to do this with sensitivity and with respect. This is no more than plain everyday decency, the kind of thing one tends to take for granted in one’s day-to-day life without necessarily even thinking about it ; and to do otherwise, unilaterally and without reasonable provocation, would IMO be asshattery, plain and simple, and probably indicative of a damaged personality, a damaged personality that is perhaps the result of a damaged life.
So sure, I guess I agree with the essence of what you’ve said in that comment of yours, addressed to me. Sure, I’m with you when you propose that we “celebrate the entire range of experience”, why not?

Spencer, on re-reading, just now, your comment (that I’d responded to yesterday), this portion of what you’d said there :
Quote Spencer : Maybe the world would be a better place if folks realized that no one can own these things.
Do you, then, wholly discount the proprietorship, so to say, that some shaktipatic Gurus (which would include RSSB’s GIHF) — not just a teacher, but someone who can (allegedly) channel forces to extend “Grace” to the disciple — allegedly exercise over their particular teachings?
As you may have guessed, I ask this half in jest. But only half. I ask this of you, specifically, because you’d been, until recently, wholly sold on the whole RSSB story. Following on your disillusionment with GSD, do you still accept the especial position (way beyond the scope of just teacher-ship) that the Guru occupies in traditions like RSSB?

Hi AP
Glad to read your recent comments!
You asked
“Do you, then, wholly discount the proprietorship, so to say, that some shaktipatic Gurus (which would include RSSB’s GIHF) — not just a teacher, but someone who can (allegedly) channel forces to extend “Grace” to the disciple — allegedly exercise over their particular teachings?”
I’m not sure that RSSB teachings give the Master anything outside of the skills necessary to connect the soul with the Spirit and provide adequate instruction.
Sadh Gurus duly appointed by a true Master may also give the initiation, even though they have not actually completed the journey.
All other commentary and praise are contextual, and neither consist of the practice nor the vows.
In fact the Saints themselves say we should only consider the Master as a teacher and friend simply for the purposes of only that trust necessary to conduct the practice.
It is the practice which will yield any other true knowledge of the path. And not by a single experience, Bua consistant experience entirely under your control.
So there is the testimony of other past students, mostly those who became teachers themselves.
That’s the advertising.
The actual course of instruction contains none of those attributes. The course is 100% the practice and the vows to yield optimal results.
You don’t actually have to believe those testimonials to undergo initiation and to engage successfully in the meditation.
It’ s only then that you will be able to discern the quality of those testimonials, which is precisely what Maharaji teaches.

Spence, as tedious as it would be, every one of those statements needs to be prefaced with something like “according to” or “in this book/by this guy who uses such titles it was said that…” Because we can’t define any of the terms at all. Nobody knows what a sadhguru is, or a saint, or a master. There are no reliable or agreed on criteria for any single attribute of mysticism.
Aside from the fact that it’s all obviously bullshit, you’re wrong again in your interpretation of what RSSB pretty clearly prescribes. One can’t undergo an experiment about deeply loving a “master.” Nobody can disbelieve in someone, yet still practice bhakti of that person, which is a part of the meditation.
“Baba ji, I think you’re crook, and everything you say is bullshit, but for the purposes of the mystic sciences, I’m devoting my entire life to you in love and devotion.” Nonsense.

Quote Spencer : … the skills necessary to connect the soul with the Spirit and provide adequate instruction … Sadh Gurus duly appointed by a true Master may also give the initiation, even though they have not actually completed the journey …
Actually that is exactly what I was driving at.
Sure, I take your point, that it “is the practice which will yield any other true knowledge of the path”.
However, it seems from what you say that you do believe — which is the answer to the question I’d asked of you — that there is something more afoot here than mere instruction. You seem to believe that it would take at least a Sadh Guru to go about initiating people. That is, initiations by random people cognizant of the process won’t do.
You’d said, earlier, that “no one can own these things”. And true enough, no one can own, say, knowledge of some branch of science, or, say, the technique of playing the piano : anyone at all who actually knows these things can easily transmit this knowledge and this skill, even impersonally via recorded media messages provided such impersonal transmission were done skillfully enough. So sure, no one can “own” these things.
But when it comes to this esoteric knowledge, apparently at least a Sadh Guru, appointed by a “true Master”, is necessary. That is, some random person who is familiar with these practices — you yourself, for instance — cannot go around, suddenly and without authorization, instructing and “initiating” others on this technique.
To that extent, then, these teachings do end up being “owned” — perhaps entirely benevolently, and without necessarily any vested interest involved in such “ownership” — by the “authorized” people within the path.
I hope I haven’t misinterpreted your comment in any way?
And it’s okay, I only wanted to explore further your belief about this, that’s all — and yes, I seem to have got your answer to my question here — without necessarily wanting to critically evaluate that belief of yours. As you say, in your earlier comment, a subjective POV that does not pretend to objective, nor seeks to impose itself on others, can simply be accepted as such, with honor and with respect. Even when one may personally not share in that POV.

Hi Appreciative!
Yes I see your point.
No one owns the creation.
But there are individuals qualified to teach, certified to teach. Some may just be teaching assistants, however much beloved by the professor who has appointed them.
And as such they must also go through their remaining lessons, however brilliant they may be.
And there are individuals qualified to be students. Admitted to the school. Some of us are better, others worse.
I am qualifed only to be a”B” student overall, and have had to retake some courses. I’ve graduated with my bachelor’s but it took a little longer. I’m in graduate school now.
My beloved professor, noting my loquacious nature, has permitted me to share whatever I know with those around me who might be interested in enrolling, or who might be first year students asking themselves why they enrolled in this subject, or those who have for the time being dropped out (He says they are only on undergraduate sabbatical!).

One more point AJ
Sawan Singh taught that Judas was now in the lap of Christ.
Judas hated the role he had to play, but he was compelled to play it perfectly.
He was forgiven. He was doing the work Christ needed him to do.
He did a terrible thing by any standard.
But he did the job. And he was forgiven.
If you read the scriptures carefully you will also see that JUDAS with the other disciples had initiated others into Jesus ‘ teachings. They gave the Word.
And Judas fell after he had done so.

OK AJ
I think I get your point.
What other data do I really need?

Quote Spencer : … Yes I see your point …
Not quite, Spence, I’m afraid, going by the rest of that comment of yours.
In this comment of yours you’re basically equating spiritual instruction in RSSB to regular teaching elsewhere (of regular subjects), so that “authorization” from a “master” would be no different, in essence, than accreditation and/or authorization by some university, for instance.
And sure, if that is what you believe, then I agree with you that — per your own beliefs about this — these teachings are not “owned” by anyone.
However, if there is some shakitpatic element at play here — that is, if you do believe that “Grace” does play a role, Grace that only a bona fide master can bestow — then the teachings aren’t quite as free : in that case they’re “owned”, however benevolently, by those who do posses this power to transmit “Grace”.
That is what I was asking you. You do see what I’m saying, right? (We were having a somewhat similar discussion, Mr. Curious, AJ, and I, on that other thread. See for instance this comment of mine there, which I posted just now : https://churchofthechurchless.com/2018/09/advice-for-rssb-believers-about-how-to-deal-with-news-about-their-guru?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad3936715200d#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e2022ad3936715200d. )
.
Again, I’m not questioning your belief, nor even wanting to critique it here. But I am interested in knowing what it is you might believe now, given your recent change of opinion about GSD — always provided you’re comfortable sharing this here.
Do you, then, believe there is some shaktipatic element involved in the RSSB path, some transmission of Grace that cannot work without a bona fide master (no matter how clear the teachings themselves)? That is, do you at all believe that the Guru can act as an all-important conduit for channeling some higher power or Grace, which function of the Guru goes beyond (and is wholly separate from) mere teacher-ship? Or do you think that simply teaching the content (the theory and the practice) is all there is to it?

Hi Appreciative
You asked
“That is, do you at all believe that the Guru can act as an all-important conduit for channeling some higher power or Grace, which function of the Guru goes beyond (and is wholly separate from) mere teacher-ship? Or do you think that simply teaching the content (the theory and the practice) is all there is to it?”
Actually it is very much like the academic model I proposed, but some explanation is warranted.
A great Teaching Assistant who has a mastery of the subject and is a good tutor will shape their lesson to what they see the student needs. There is indeed a connection there. Psychologically, that works on several levels.
I do believe that the Master at best connects the disciple to what is in themselves already. They cannot add anything to that. The entirety of God and Spirit is within the student, just as all the power there is for a student to learn is within them. But of course a good teacher makes all the difference.
Is there a psychic connection of some kind? I don’t believe that is essential nor verifiable. And the Masters tell us two different messages. First, so the power is within you. Second, the Matter connects you to that. Psychic and Spiritual terminology may simply beculture bound terms for something very real.
But there is most certainly a sub conscious connection, very real, which has a very powerful impact on drawing our attention, at a subconscious level to start, to something deep and real within the human brain.
What triggers that connection? A very good teacher who understands these dynamics and can help us rehearse the Behaviors that trigger those unconscious mechanisms.

AP let me further elucidate. 😉
When you look at your best friend you are seeing the image constructed by your brain. Your brain modifies that image all the time. You are seeing what you brain places before you. And so many adjustments take place without your knowledge. All of that is subconscious.
You drive a car and have little awareness of all that is going on under the hood, inside the engine.
What influences that image? Even emotion, even associations with other people, memories, it all confess together in what your brain presents to you. And what you do not wish to see, often, is deleted before you get the image in your conscious view.
If course your brain is working from what it receives, visually and in other ways.
The path of meditation is a means to become aware of these things, their flaws as well as their truths; to integrate and to make your experience wholistic and purposeful, functional and insightful.
The great power within you is real. The great compassion within you is real.
Is it connected to the rest of the world?
We are all parts of this creation and connected to it.

Finally, AP
If you firmly believe, given your culture and belief system, that the Master is within you, that’s where your attention will turn. And when your attention turns there, your awareness of what is there will expand. Your level of love for your Master, functionally, affects how much you are going to remain focused internally, and push away distraction. Degree of love = degree of undisturbed attention. And that determines your progress.
The mind, physiologically, is fascinating. You can become aware of things simply focusing on them, if you focus is on something that is actually there. Like turning on the light in a room. Your attention on it alone, undisturbed, gradually turns up the dimmer switch. Love and attention are natural mechanisms to do it.

Thanks for so clearly speaking out about this, Spence.
I understand : you aren’t plugging, yourself, for a channeling-of-Grace explanation. At the same time, I appreciate the nuances you touch one, about not just transmitting the teachings properly, but about properly fashioning the teachings in order to suit the individual requirements of individual students/disciples.
Given that I myself aspire to the sort of realization you speak of (while at the same time refusing to believe in any of it until I have myself experienced it), I find your heart-felt words inspiring.