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Jim
huh?
Jim. No.

Have you met the folks in the organization? Brilliant, focused, organized, determined, and overflowing with compassion. I’m happy to watch, learn, and follow instructions.

These are incredibly accomplished souls.

Have you seen Huzur?
There is a real man, a mensch, a truly decent Saint.

He is all that and needs no one to speak for him.

Can a Laser beam of light and sound larger than this planet look you in the eyes? That`s what it`s like to be in the audience where Huzur is present.

Learning to just receive. What a total experience of bliss.

That is the curse that was born at your fathers dinner table.

The more guests, the more debates to be won, the more intelligent and creative the guest the more work … and …that can create an overload.

Take an example in how mcs dealt with guests …haha

Litany of loathing
AI of Anon
Encyclopaedia of Exers Excrement
Garrulous gospel according to Brian

Hi Um
You see how the mind works?
Your argument is self-defeating, a closed loop.
We are all, as bags of chemicals and conditioning, destined to each do exactly our thing. Even seeing things from a higher perspective doesnt change that, though education can help us find more personal options within ourselves.

One of those is spiritual practice, which takes psychology into realms psychology has no knowledge of.

And lifts our burdens, all of them.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

Spiritual practice leads to everything, Um.

If a door is held open for you and you enter, that is everything.
Your entering is just doing as you were prepared to do. Like a wife at the wedding ceremony. Instructions were given, but she never needs to be asked, but she may ask some questions, to help her with the ceremony.

And she and her husband may be wise enough, when she is with her husband, and he with her, both, to put aside questions and enjoy each other’s company.

Now, who will do the dishes? “Sweetheart, if you love me?…”

But if it is the second sort of love I had mentioned earlier, they both find themselves together at the kitchen sink without either needing to ask.

Snake oil or snake poison, whatever takes us away from ourselves and the love of God is all poison. So the dealer in such things, whether they tell you what great things their product does, or if they tell you that all other products are poison and empty, in both cases they do a disservice. And yet, they also fulfil their destiny.

Certainly we can agree that you and I see things differently. MCH was no snake oil Salesman. He was indeed God in Human form. You and I see that differently. Yet you quote him a lot, as if he agreed with you. Interesting.

The difference may be that you think I’m trying to sell something, when I am not. That is for God to handle. But I am very much a fan and have no problem sharing my love, however fanboy it may be, for my Master and Baba Ji and Huzur. Yes, count me in as a screaming teenager cheeks shiny with tears, smile a mile wide, when it comes to those three.

Yes, I understand Um. You think I have something to sell. And I think you have something to sell.

But neither of us are selling anything. Neither of us runs an Ashram, neither the RSSB Dera nor the Nihlist Ashram nor work with their marketing departments. We are as God made us.

Hi Um:

When you write:
“What you do here lacks the emotional charge you SAY it has…you USE IT against others”

Well, that is your accusation. You see I think we can have a discussion of opinions without needing to bring any personal accusations in at all.

The Atheist perspective has a lot of nobility in it.

And so does the Satsangi’s.

We do disagree on how you and I interpret what Maharaji said. I do think there is room for Atheist and Believer in this world, and with respect, and without any personal implication.

That’s not easy to achieve, but a worthy goal.

Um,
I have assiduously avoided making any judgements of your upbringing or your character, whether you are blessed or cursed. These things are completely outside my bounds.

I did encourage you once to return to your vows. You very kindly reminded me that this was personal and not my affair. To which I apologized and agreed.

Characterizations of my character are personal and not germain to the discussion of philosophy. So, now I get to set some boundaries also.

How I write, how I present information and what you project onto that is outside the boundaries of discussing philosophy, evidence, and experience, and most importantly, learning to honor those things when they are quite different than our own.

It may be presumptive of me to hold as a premise that we are all equals, but I believe it is much easier to hear each other if we stick to that.

There is no flaw or lack in someone who doesn’t have the experience I do, nor the wisdom that you do.

These differences rather are an opportunity to learn and celebrate.

I’m quite happy as a Satsangi, but also, in the company of Nihlists, in the company of people of have nothing to grasp, and insist that there must be nothing to grasp. I really feel that as a deep source of pain, first and foremost. A pain that, even if only in understanding, I can help alleviate. But not to enable or suggest that anyone has a monopoly on truth when we are all still moving in the realms of opinion.

Hi Um:

You wrote:
“You are NOT … discussing anything with anybody here….you try to manage us.”

Hm. You have brought up this notion of the role of management before, and not with any great appreciation of it.

But Um, here is an opportunity to help inform you a little better on this front. My profession is not as a manager, but as a facilitator. These are completely different roles.

The manager has assigned to them a number of employees and they are responsible for the behavior of those employees.

The facilitator has no such authority nor responsibility at all. A true facilitator can go anywhere in any organization and speak with anyone: President, brain surgeon and orderly. They are not bound by departmental lines, social lines, age lines, orientation lines, even political lines and religious lines.

The facilitator sees none of these things. They are entirely focused on something else, invisible, within each individual.

If they are effective, results improve. But all credit goes to the employees, not anyone else. Not even management.

The best facilitator is one where, when things get better, when people wake up with insights and ideas and share them, and then proceed to work together to do great things, they never think “Oh, the facilitator initiated this.” No. The facilitator is largely invisible. They are trying to understand, they are reflecting with some analysis conditions, and allowing that information to bring about whatever change works in that culture.

And then fewer patients die. More are healed, more miracles seem to happen, and they get more attention that is a magic source of improvement.

A good facilitator makes zero recommendations.

They are at best a catalyst. A person who interacts with others, who helps change happen by nothing more than understanding and reflecting, but who is not actually part of any of it and who disappears when its over leaving the system intact functioning much better.

Sometimes a good facilitator says things people don’t want to hear. But they have no authority, just an opinion. They are reflecting accurately, even with data.

If it resonates with anyone, what happens within them is the source of change. Nothing to do with the facilitator.

Often, facilitators are credited with having done nothing, and yet, when they are done, the difference between the before and the after for many organizations is palpable, and entirely superior.

This is what I was brought up for, how I live. Not to be anyone’s boss, but how to help everyone participate in management. The only boss is progress of any real kind.

Now, every good manager learns a little more about facilitation, but their job is different.

The good manager must be a little impatient or else nothing happens.

The facilitator must be infinitely patient.

Two different jobs. Both important.

You and I, here, are not managers.

If we can avoid making personal remarks about each other, we might be better facilitators of a discussion, and progress in understanding tomorrow what we do not understand today.

What is the cost, afterall, of really listening, and then, letting new information influence us, and even changing our minds naturally, from the inside? Only the cost of our prior illusions.

With 12 steps program?

Hi Martin
Therapy with the right therapist can do a lot of good. People wait until things go wrong, but I would argue that everyone should have some form of therapy, not merely to fix things reactively, but to get and stay healthy. It is a worthy profession, when you have a good therapist.

Spiritual meditation, and in particular Sant Mat, does not replace the need for good company, helpful company: Good friends and family, good doctors, therapists and teachers.

Sant Mat is a built in capacity unique to human beings, just like the other capacities of the brain and body,

The connecting to life itself.

Others in our lives can help us to build an atmosphere and an attitude towards the inner journey, which includes the journey through our psychology and where that is actually sourced, and beyond.

Good company encourages self development and growth in whatever way works best for us.

Sometimes we don’t see our own growth, our own progress, though we may see where we have fallen. The further along the path we are the more demanding and difficult it can feel.

At those times we adjust. We do a little less intense meditation until we can let go all of our expectations, which our own earlier progress created in our minds.

We all want meditation to fulfill all the promises of life. And the more we see what is really there, the higher this expectation grows.

But in time we learn that we must build that atmosphere, in our lives, to support our meditation, and other people and their place in our lives, supporting us, and we meeting the responsibilities to support them. These duties, pleasant or painful, cannot be avoided.

Then, in moments of stability and peace, we find meditating a source of peace and balance, a ballast that lessens the impact of our outward trials and helps us fulfill those respinsibilities.

Our entire life, and all around us are part of the path. Then meditation becomes a crucial anchor, a refuge, and the wind that carries us across all this tearing sea of life.

Martin i was surprised to read you were initiated in 1975 …. the 15 years up to 1990 there was imo hardly any outward pressure to make people feel lovers or otherwise miserable.

Maybe in a smaller circle of a local satsang group … they existed an some were somewhat “fanatic” so to say … but in general there was a very easy going atmosphere

Here is where you see a story that appeals to you, but not the facts:

In any corporation many people hold jobs. Most have no involvement in executive financial decisions.

These family members were in business with each other long before the sale of Ranbaxy. Gurinder did hold directorships of companies.

The Singh brothers were found guilty and ordered to pay Daiichi Ranbaxy. The Singh brothers had moved monies from Fortis into shell companies and other investment firms.

There is zero evidence that Gurinder himself had anything to do with this movement of funds.

He did have bank accounts shared with family members, who moved monies into and out of those accounts. He held directorships on two investment firms, longstanding. Not the shell companies the Singh brothers and other family members erected when the Fortis money scheme was initiated, by Malvinder.

When investigating specifically the diverted Fortis funds, the SEBI’s detailed audit found a list of persons responsibly involved in the movement of money. Gurinder’s name is not among them.

To date there is a lot of evidence of who diverted funds to whom. Among all the individuals involved in moving money, Gurinder’s name is not found.

Yes, he did own directorships on a couple of the investment firms, longstanding business relationships with the Singh family.

Monies that moved into the family accounts also moved out of them. And Gurinder himself loaned the Singh’s money in earlier years. As audits have established.

None of this points to Gurinder as the initiator of these transactions, and none establish that he himself received monies when those accounts were managed conjointly by the singhs and their cohorts.

Rohit, you are misleading readers.
The listed amounts you quote are Malvinder’s list in his accusation, not the court’s finding.
You wrote:
“The court record is particularly revealing
In Daiichi Sankyo Company Ltd v. Oscar Investments Ltd, the Delhi High Court record contains a table [You omit here that this was Malvinder’s table and no one else’s]
showing amounts associated with members of the Dhillon family.
Among the figures recorded are:
Gurinder Singh Dhillon — ₹1.57 crore
Gurkirat Singh Dhillon — ₹88.78 crore
Gurpreet Singh Dhillon — ₹79.71 crore
Shabnam Dhillon — ₹52.48 crore
in relation to the entities/transactions identified in the table.”

Malvinder’s table. And convenient because the total amounts to much of what he owes Daichi.

More revealing is the SEBI audit.

The SEBI independently established that hundreds of crores of Fortis money were routed through Best, Fern, Modland and other intermediary entities back to RHC Holding, a promoter company controlled by Malvinder and Shivinder Singh.

The people’s accounts that received the money then sent it to RHC, the parent holding company, owned by Malvinder and Shivinder.

Separately, Gurinder’s sworn affidavit stated that almost all of the aggregate funds routed through Gurpreet and Gurkirat’s accounts—about 99.7%—were subsequently transferred back to RHC or RHC-controlled companies.

The Malvinder givith and the Malvinder taketh away…but tries to double dip by showing the books of the intermediary companies as owed assetts.

Haha… so, according to this logic, God in human form—Gurvinder—apparently gave the Singh brothers permission to use his account for money laundering. 🙃

This is exactly where blind faith becomes a problem: when every allegation, piece of evidence, or uncomfortable fact is automatically explained away to protect the person you worship.

It’s similar to what we have seen with followers of Ram Rahim. Even after he was convicted of rape and murder, many of his followers continued to believe that he was innocent and that the courts, evidence, and everyone questioning him were somehow wrong.

The same thing seems to be happening here. Even if tomorrow a court examines the evidence against Gurinder Baba and reaches a finding against him, I genuinely wonder whether some of you would still refuse to accept it and continue to insist that he is innocent.

At that point, it is no longer about evidence, facts, or justice—it becomes about belief. And when someone’s belief becomes so absolute that nothing—not even credible evidence or a court’s judgment—can challenge it, there is no meaningful debate left.

You simply cannot convince someone who has decided in advance that their chosen person can do no wrong.

And honestly, that is the real tragedy of blind faith: when the belief becomes more important than the truth.If you want, I can also make it more sarcastic and savage, or more intellectual and hard-hitting while keeping the same point.